Speaker 1: A warning. This episode contains language and depictions of violence
Speaker 1: that may be disturbing to some listeners. Hello, this is
Speaker 1: a prepaid debit call from Sadiq Abdullah Hassan, the Sunni
Speaker 1: Muslim leader or imam at Lucasville at the time of
Speaker 1: the nineteen ninety three uprising, the uprising during which ten
Speaker 1: people were killed and Keith Lamar was sent to death
Speaker 1: row for five of them. Thank you for using TTL
Speaker 1: and good and good afternoon, Good afternoon. How are you? Oh? Thanks,
Speaker 1: consider I'm good. Hassan, formerly known as Carlos Sanders, was
Speaker 1: convicted of various crimes that took place during the uprising
Speaker 1: and sentenced to death for his alleged role in the
Speaker 1: murder of Officer Robert for Landingham. Hassan calls me from
Speaker 1: death row at the Ohio State Penitentiary, the same prison
Speaker 1: where Keith is. Thankfully, Hassan has agreed to speak with
Speaker 1: me about his story, his uprising, his case. I need
Speaker 1: to learn more about what happened back in nineteen ninety
Speaker 1: three from the man who was at the very center
Speaker 1: of it all. Is what transpired during those eleven brutal days,
Speaker 1: what he intended. Are there any similarities in the investigation
Speaker 1: and prosecution of his case and Keith's, and does he
Speaker 1: have any insight into whether or not Keith was the
Speaker 1: actual leader of the so called death squad. I don't
Speaker 1: want to use all of your time today so to
Speaker 1: decide for this purpose, I'm Leah Rothman. This is the
Speaker 1: Real Killer, Episode nine, The Scapegoat. I asked Keith a
Speaker 1: while back if he and Hassan, or he and any
Speaker 1: of the others from Lucasville who are housed at the
Speaker 1: Ohio State Penitentiary talk about their cases, compare notes, try
Speaker 1: to help each other. He said, no, there's an unwritten
Speaker 1: rule about it. It's just not something you do. It's
Speaker 1: not something you talk about. So I have no idea
Speaker 1: how Hassan will react when I ask him about Keith,
Speaker 1: if he'll shut me down or be open to talking.
Speaker 1: So at first I decide to tread lightly. Did you
Speaker 1: know him before the uprising? Yeah? And no, not know
Speaker 1: him personally. I've seen him fight in the box room
Speaker 1: range because I used to boxing right one day yards
Speaker 1: in the boxing ring. At another time, I was welcome
Speaker 1: with some Muslims. Who is going to trial, recreation job
Speaker 1: or somewhere and he had locks of some rosaries around
Speaker 1: his neck or some knees, and some of them fell off,
Speaker 1: and he became discouraged and sicklemof and I was like,
Speaker 1: oh man, I'll say, oh no, I'm gonna become discouraged.
Speaker 1: To pick him up, put him back home, you know,
Speaker 1: for me and some of the other Muslim pick him
Speaker 1: up and gave him time and what the riot happened
Speaker 1: and we end up on death row together. I brought
Speaker 1: that up to him, and he remembered that I planned
Speaker 1: to come back to the subject of Keith a bit
Speaker 1: later today. Hassan is sixty born and raised in Georgia.
Speaker 1: In nineteen seventy eight, at age fifteen, he was sent
Speaker 1: to a juvenile detention center for aggravated assault with intent
Speaker 1: to rob He says while he was there he escaped,
Speaker 1: so for that he was tried as an adult and
Speaker 1: transferred to prison. Eventually, he was released and moved to
Speaker 1: Ohio in nineteen eighty three. The next year, Hassan was
Speaker 1: convicted of aggravated robbery and sentenced thirteen to twenty five years.
Speaker 1: In April of nineteen eighty eight, at the age of
Speaker 1: twenty five, he was transferred to Lucasville. Lucasville, it was
Speaker 1: very loud. People would be thrown yurine pieces, bodily races
Speaker 1: on one another, thorn scolding coffee on one another faces.
Speaker 1: It was like like okay, care it was. It was
Speaker 1: just a wild environment. There was a lot of stabbing
Speaker 1: and murdering going on an institution, a lot of racism.
Speaker 1: There was a few black prisoners that were murdered by
Speaker 1: staff numbers. Can you tell me a little bit about
Speaker 1: how Warden Tate ran the prison? Okay, yes, Alka Kate
Speaker 1: Junior also known as king Off. The sent him there
Speaker 1: and his job was to straighten out the problem. And
Speaker 1: not only was prisoners, but even with staff numbers. Staff
Speaker 1: number had become accustomed to a certain culture and take.
Speaker 1: When he came, he didn't care who told that. He
Speaker 1: actually stepped on whether you were the inmate or whether
Speaker 1: you was a officer or a staff number. His position
Speaker 1: was this institution gonna be running my way or you
Speaker 1: could hit the otway. And how did you become the
Speaker 1: imm at Lucasville. My predecessor made his intention that he
Speaker 1: was going to step down from being the iman, which
Speaker 1: would be the spiritual leader and head of the Muslim community,
Speaker 1: and he said that he was hand picking me to
Speaker 1: be his professor. That must have felt great that you
Speaker 1: were chosen. No, absolutely, not to the contrary. I know
Speaker 1: because a lot of prisoners who had a very aggressive
Speaker 1: and assaulted type behavior, they was now being trying and
Speaker 1: for to Lucasviere and older people in Lucasville was now
Speaker 1: being moved out. So Lucasville used to be very violent,
Speaker 1: an abuse of type environment, but now you got a
Speaker 1: lot of young people came in and it's increased tremendously.
Speaker 1: So contrary to the popular opinion, No, I was not
Speaker 1: pleased to be appointed, but reluctantly I did accept the
Speaker 1: position of becoming dispirit ahead for the Muslims before the uprising,
Speaker 1: where were you housed? I was an honor block, and
Speaker 1: you have to be a person that out of trouble.
Speaker 1: You can't be getting in trouble to be an honor block.
Speaker 1: So I became more or less amount of prisoner staying
Speaker 1: out of trouble, good work performance and behavior, and being
Speaker 1: enrolled in the academical school you get a good time credit.
Speaker 1: I was one year away from the parole board at
Speaker 1: the time of the uprising. In episode two, we talked
Speaker 1: a lot about what happened in the days leading up
Speaker 1: to the uprising, specifically in regard to the TB test
Speaker 1: Warden Arthur Tate planned to administer to those one hundred
Speaker 1: and fifty nine men who had previously refused it. The
Speaker 1: Muslim community believed the test, which contained phenol, was a
Speaker 1: form of alcohol, and for them being forced to consume
Speaker 1: alcohol was a violation of Islamic law and their religious freedoms.
Speaker 1: So the Muslim prisoners, led by Hassan, stood their ground.
Speaker 1: So did Warden Tate. Almost kind of him that just
Speaker 1: because the person comes to prison and adore the gates
Speaker 1: are actually closed behind him, that there's not fought for
Speaker 1: prisoners of their constitutional right. If you can use some
Speaker 1: other method that the upset pasury if for your analysis
Speaker 1: would suffice, If that will work, I mean we would
Speaker 1: find him affect. His position was he was not going
Speaker 1: to allow prisoners, in this particular case Muslims to dictate
Speaker 1: to him. Are you run the institution? On Easter Sunday,
Speaker 1: April eleventh, the Muslim prisoners were determined to show Warden
Speaker 1: Tate who actually ran his institution, but Hassan says things
Speaker 1: did not go as planned. What you're about to hear
Speaker 1: is Hassan's behind the prison wall account of what he
Speaker 1: says happened. There was another intended to be an uprising,
Speaker 1: or if some people love to say, all right, to
Speaker 1: begin with, it's supposed to be a peaceful protest, you know,
Speaker 1: because opposition was coming in here institute knowledge rules. We
Speaker 1: felt if we could take over a certain place of
Speaker 1: the portion of the prison or one particular Bob and
Speaker 1: barricade ourselson and try to get the attention of the
Speaker 1: media and his superior in central office, that we can
Speaker 1: try to resolve the matter. The plans for it to
Speaker 1: be a non violent protest, right, But in order to
Speaker 1: barricade yourselves like you had to, like you got to
Speaker 1: get the guards out of there, right, So was that
Speaker 1: part of the plan? I mean, because I think the
Speaker 1: first thing that people on the yard saw was like
Speaker 1: a guard running out with blood running down his head.
Speaker 1: I mean, you guys had to get control in order
Speaker 1: to barricade yourselves in, right, absolutely. And you know there
Speaker 1: are some people who may be submissive and some people
Speaker 1: who wouldn't be submissive. I can't say because I was
Speaker 1: not part of why this particularly, I don't know if
Speaker 1: it was one of the people who initially took over
Speaker 1: of the area or just somebody seeing the opportunity that
Speaker 1: these officers are losing they post and just took opportunity
Speaker 1: to attack an officer. I don't know what the circumstances were,
Speaker 1: but yes, everyone knows that you have to have bargaining ships,
Speaker 1: and you have no bargaining ships. Why would they allow
Speaker 1: you to just barricade yourself there if you've got something
Speaker 1: to negotiate with, So yes, people would obviously know that
Speaker 1: piece would take in the officer hostice and and and
Speaker 1: trying to use them as bargaining ships to achieve your objectives.
Speaker 1: So the hostages that were taken there were I think
Speaker 1: twelve initially, but then some were released. And then because
Speaker 1: like I said, nobody wanted to see any hostage or
Speaker 1: anyone being harmed, so when people were asked when the
Speaker 1: guards was harmed, they released them without any strange attached.
Speaker 1: They didn't ask for anything for it. They wanted them
Speaker 1: to get medical attention immediately. So yes, one of the
Speaker 1: things they did we did was released false hostages. From
Speaker 1: the beginning, what was intended to be a peaceful protest
Speaker 1: and turned into a full scale rebellion. Hastin says his
Speaker 1: peaceful protest was hijacked, the result a full scale rebellion.
Speaker 1: There was a group of people they became known and
Speaker 1: transciss and stuff. I've read at the death Squad. They
Speaker 1: was gone around filling people doing the nite a part
Speaker 1: of the uprising. Tell me if I've got this right
Speaker 1: or not. But I read that you wanted to put
Speaker 1: these people who were alleged snitches in cells, locked in
Speaker 1: cells for their own safety. Is that true? Yes, In
Speaker 1: the beginning, when people were talking about killing the snitches,
Speaker 1: killing the snitches, like killing all the Homosexes, you're gonna
Speaker 1: have bodies all over this place. No, if you feel
Speaker 1: they snitches and you're concerned about them seeing you do something,
Speaker 1: but just lock them up and they sail and they can't.
Speaker 1: They won't be running around their institutions. So people was
Speaker 1: being locked up in l six for their protection, you know.
Speaker 1: So that's that's the moment that you're talking about. But
Speaker 1: then when I left from this area and went to
Speaker 1: the bobby shop and was talking to some Muslims, because
Speaker 1: about forty five minutes an hour, so then you know
Speaker 1: they're not they're killing the snitches. So the plan is
Speaker 1: for this non violent protest. When you see what is unfolding,
Speaker 1: I mean, were you freaking out? I mean because if
Speaker 1: it wasn't what you wanted right, And then all of
Speaker 1: the brothers told me said, man, you need to saida
Speaker 1: you might having a panic attack. One of the Muslim
Speaker 1: brothers comings and his over security and he appointed some
Speaker 1: of the brothers to take me in the room and
Speaker 1: let me realize. He says, look, we got this, just
Speaker 1: go relax of few minutes. Man, they're like, keep having
Speaker 1: a panic attack. So if that's what you mean by
Speaker 1: freaking out, then yes, I said, hold on, go get
Speaker 1: some of the brothers. Don't get some of the brothers
Speaker 1: own security and tell him out to meet me back
Speaker 1: in the Bobby shop. So they met Beckam. The bobby
Speaker 1: shop is about fifteen twenty Muslims. They had all different
Speaker 1: types of weapons as federer and we was on our
Speaker 1: way going toward L six some kind of way. The
Speaker 1: people that burn down they murdering. The people in L
Speaker 1: six had heard that we was coming and they ran
Speaker 1: out on the reclaration yard. And when I came on
Speaker 1: myself and other Muslim came into L six. We've seen
Speaker 1: people and people was gagging for air, and I told
Speaker 1: people to get him off and get some of these
Speaker 1: other guys out. So they took them and took them
Speaker 1: to the reparation yard, and some of them actually survived.
Speaker 1: Three men survived their beatings, Andrey Stockton was one of them.
Speaker 1: You met him in the last episode. The rest of
Speaker 1: the death Squad's victims and L six did not survive.
Speaker 1: And what happened was people were saying that the majority
Speaker 1: of the people that was killed was white. For now
Speaker 1: white a sense of fear as if it was a
Speaker 1: racial thing, and we knew it was not racial. It
Speaker 1: would never intended to be a right uprising to begin with,
Speaker 1: and everything was real jedery and people were feeling uncomfortable.
Speaker 1: So I think uprising or happened round three o'clock a
Speaker 1: coast to three o'clock, so maybe by eight thirty then
Speaker 1: they coming. He got on the bullhun and said, look,
Speaker 1: we're getting ready to say our prayers, and we asked
Speaker 1: that y'all be hold down the noise, so give us
Speaker 1: the respect that we would give y'all. And while we
Speaker 1: say our prayers, and after we got who standing, Commons
Speaker 1: got on the bullhorn again and he said that if
Speaker 1: anybody Kristen, Jews or whatever your religious nomination is, y'all
Speaker 1: want to come down here and pray, y'all can come
Speaker 1: down here in the same error that we use and pray.
Speaker 1: And he also requested that they give the other people
Speaker 1: that came down the same respect that they gave the
Speaker 1: Muslim being quiet while they're praying. And that was like
Speaker 1: the ice and on the cake that broke up a
Speaker 1: lot of detention. From that point on, the three main
Speaker 1: groups previous enemies, remember, the Sunni Muslims, the Aryan Brotherhood,
Speaker 1: and the Black gangster disciples put their differences aside and
Speaker 1: formed a common bond with each other against the prison administration.
Speaker 1: So as the days are dragging on, what are you thinking?
Speaker 1: I didn't think it was going well. I think the
Speaker 1: prison authorities with trying they darn best in their mind
Speaker 1: for good reasons to use stall characters, trying to get
Speaker 1: their officers back without having to give up a whole lot,
Speaker 1: and prisoners was not willing to do that because we
Speaker 1: understood if there was no hostages, they would have thrown
Speaker 1: the place long comic goal and people would have been
Speaker 1: murdered and seriously injured, and it was not going to
Speaker 1: will Then, as we know by now, things took a
Speaker 1: major turn on Thursday the fifteenth. How did things change
Speaker 1: after the Landingham was killed? Once the Landingham body was
Speaker 1: placed on the recreation yard a kind of speed up
Speaker 1: the process. The prison authorities knocked stot trying to operate
Speaker 1: or negotiate in good faith. Eventually negotiator Nikki Schwartz was
Speaker 1: brought in. Then three days later the uprising finally ended.
Speaker 1: How did you feel when it was over? I mean relieved,
Speaker 1: peer could have been over a lot much sona, but
Speaker 1: obviously felt relieved. Hassan's relief was short lived. I continue
Speaker 1: my conversation with the former m MOM at Lucasville, Sadiq
Speaker 1: Abdellah Hassan. So the investigation is led by the Ohio
Speaker 1: State Highway Patrol. Talked to me about being interviewed. I
Speaker 1: was never interviewed once, not because I refused. They never
Speaker 1: even attempt to interview me. They had already said in
Speaker 1: a mind that I was going to be used as
Speaker 1: a scapegoat. They had already decided to put the point
Speaker 1: of thing at me, So I never spoke to them once.
Speaker 1: I never refused the speak to them, and they never
Speaker 1: made an attempt to speak to me. Hassan says he
Speaker 1: was never interviewed by the Ohio State Highway Patrol, so
Speaker 1: his name would not be on that list of interviews
Speaker 1: they conducted. I check the index, and he's right. Someone
Speaker 1: else's name is also not on that list, Jason Rob,
Speaker 1: one of the other so called leaders during the uprising.
Speaker 1: Jason Rob's name isn't in here either, right. He said
Speaker 1: the same thing with him, so I guess mean him
Speaker 1: within the same boat, being too leaders, a sports person
Speaker 1: doing the uprising, that they had no intention to come
Speaker 1: at the top those they're already decide that they was
Speaker 1: going to make of the straight goa. James Ware's name
Speaker 1: is also nowhere on that list of interviews. He's another
Speaker 1: one of the so called Lucasville Five, the five men
Speaker 1: sentenced to death for their alleged crimes in the uprising.
Speaker 1: So these three guys who have been sentenced to death
Speaker 1: were never interviewed by investigators, So many of these interviews
Speaker 1: weren't recorded. Why not record him? Why pick and choose
Speaker 1: when to record these interviews? Abductive or someone saying something
Speaker 1: that you won't here, then you want to play the
Speaker 1: recording and make it seem like you just thought him.
Speaker 1: But no, you already had a conversation with them Houra
Speaker 1: two hours, two days before, and now you want to
Speaker 1: you already know what they're going to say, but you're
Speaker 1: not going to play something not knowing what they're going
Speaker 1: to say. So you only want to receive the information
Speaker 1: that is favorable. By the way, George Skates, maybe the
Speaker 1: most front and center spokesperson for the prisoners during the uprising,
Speaker 1: also currently on death row, was only interviewed twice by investigators,
Speaker 1: and neither one of those interviews were recorded. Is it
Speaker 1: just me or does that seem strange? What were you
Speaker 1: charged with? I was charged with fifteen charges. I can't
Speaker 1: remember all them, but I know I was a charge
Speaker 1: with two counts of capital murder, one with regard to
Speaker 1: Officer landing him another work regards to end a by
Speaker 1: the name of Bruce Harris. He was murdered on the
Speaker 1: last day the death of surrender. Did you have anything
Speaker 1: to do with Officer of Landingham's No, absolutely not. He
Speaker 1: was the officer that used to be in mob block.
Speaker 1: He was a nice person. In fact, he was the
Speaker 1: most nicest one of all the officers there. Hassan says
Speaker 1: as he prepared to go to trial, one of the
Speaker 1: biggest issues he faced had to do with his representation.
Speaker 1: His two original attorneys, Rick Kerger and Charles Boss basically
Speaker 1: told the judge that they could not with what time
Speaker 1: and money they were allotted, properly represent Hassan In time,
Speaker 1: they were replaced with two other attorneys out of Cincinnati.
Speaker 1: In January of nineteen ninety six, after two changes of venue,
Speaker 1: Hassan goes on trial in Hamilton County, Ohio. And what
Speaker 1: was the makeup of your joury? They loved a white
Speaker 1: and one black on my jury, a black gay, and
Speaker 1: even the state chatter removed him from my case. But
Speaker 1: the judge he seems to do so because he no
Speaker 1: base on the case. Come out of Kentucky. About all
Speaker 1: removing blacks from jury, I would end up probably getting
Speaker 1: a reversal. Sounds a bit familiar. Hassen's jury was made
Speaker 1: up of eleven whites and one black. Keith's jury was
Speaker 1: all white. Then there's something else Hassan brings up that
Speaker 1: I know I've heard before alleged issues with exculpatory evidence,
Speaker 1: and my child to state that that your honor, we're
Speaker 1: not aware of any exculpatory information for this particular defendant.
Speaker 1: But the judge say, is not about whether you are
Speaker 1: aware or not. You have to go into the rector
Speaker 1: fives and see if they have any exculpatory information, because
Speaker 1: it come out later on than there is. The dates
Speaker 1: can end up being dismissed for lack of revealing this
Speaker 1: exculpatory information. So we had another preach r hearing maybe
Speaker 1: sixty or ninety days later, and my prosecutor saying, we're honor,
Speaker 1: we searched the file and there's no exculportory information. What
Speaker 1: physical evidence did they have against you? Absolutely not no
Speaker 1: physical evidence. So if there's no physical evidence against you,
Speaker 1: what did the state have? I continue my conversation with
Speaker 1: Saddiq Abdallah Hassan. So if there's no physical evidence against you,
Speaker 1: what did the state have? Self serving or in makes
Speaker 1: game testimony more than that took themselves, deflected attention from
Speaker 1: themselves in place to blame on myself the fact that
Speaker 1: I was the spiritual leader of the Muslims and being
Speaker 1: the leader I guess h and there my I becomes
Speaker 1: my brother keeper. So they relied on the testimony of E.
Speaker 1: In the real snargrass all people who got deals, all
Speaker 1: people who got deals rights set. He participated that murders,
Speaker 1: he kidnapped guards, and a lot of those cases he
Speaker 1: was not charged with. After the devil was charged with
Speaker 1: the guards murdered, but he turned state and said what
Speaker 1: the state wanted him to say. Anthony Lavelle and Roger
Speaker 1: Snodgrass reportedly both took plea bargains and were released from
Speaker 1: prison many years ago. I've tried finding both men, but
Speaker 1: haven't had any luck. Interestingly enough, though, Roger Snodgrass in
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen did participate in the Netflix show Captive Anas
Speaker 1: and this I gave up information on guys to the authorities. Right,
Speaker 1: It makes no difference to me. If you're judging me,
Speaker 1: and you're judging me, you judge you, and anybody else
Speaker 1: wants to judge me. For a fine man, judge me
Speaker 1: all right, put yourself in my shoes. You know, see
Speaker 1: how you handle that situation. I don't think most people
Speaker 1: would still have enough mind to be saying. After all
Speaker 1: the ship that I've seen and done and been through
Speaker 1: in that fucking ride. Yeah, it's I feel man. And
Speaker 1: one more thing about Anthony Lavelle. He was allegedly the
Speaker 1: leader of the Black Gangster Disciples, one of the three
Speaker 1: groups in charge during the uprising. Hassan just said a
Speaker 1: minute ago that Lavelle cooperated with the authorities and in
Speaker 1: turn got some sort of deal. Well, what I find
Speaker 1: curious is that of the five people sitting on death row,
Speaker 1: no one from the Black Gangster Disciples is there. How
Speaker 1: did that happen? How is it that they are the
Speaker 1: only ones of the three groups in charge that managed
Speaker 1: to avoid being sent to death row. Could there alleged
Speaker 1: participation like Anthony Lavelle's have anything to do with it.
Speaker 1: Then there's Kenneth's Law. That's another name you haven't heard before.
Speaker 1: He said that myself and James where the one that
Speaker 1: actually had the officer murder. I gave James Where the order.
Speaker 1: But that's not physical evidence. That's based on hearsay and
Speaker 1: the deal they made with Kenneth Law that he must
Speaker 1: testify to the truth of his statement. If he deviate
Speaker 1: away from his statement, then they was going to reindice him.
Speaker 1: They gave him a polygraph test. He failed a polygraph
Speaker 1: test polygraph test saying that he was telling a blatant lie,
Speaker 1: but number the mess myself and other was convicted based
Speaker 1: on his testimony. Did Kenneth Law end up recanting, Yes,
Speaker 1: after the fact, But you know recantation as many case
Speaker 1: all throughout the United States where people trying to RecA
Speaker 1: and the prosecutor with challenge it's saying original statement in
Speaker 1: the chimp and the recantation is a lot. But no,
Speaker 1: his recantation is not a lot. In an affidavit from
Speaker 1: March ninth, two thousand and referring to the trials of
Speaker 1: Hassan and James Ware, Kenneth Law said quote, I was
Speaker 1: interviewed several times before both trials and was told what
Speaker 1: to say. Kenneth Law, who was convicted of kidnapping officer
Speaker 1: of the Landingham and pled guilty to conspiracy to commit
Speaker 1: murder in his death, is currently still incarcerated at Northeast
Speaker 1: Ohio Correctional Center. His next parole hearing is scheduled for
Speaker 1: November of twenty twenty five. The trooper didn't know Field Lanham,
Speaker 1: and all they was interested in is putting the blame
Speaker 1: at the doorsteps of the leaders of people who was
Speaker 1: sportsperson trying to bring about a piece of silver in
Speaker 1: the uprising. In addition to Officer of the Landingham's murder,
Speaker 1: Hassan was also charged with Bruce Harris's murder. Bruce Harris
Speaker 1: was believed to have been killed on the last day
Speaker 1: of the uprising. Hassan says he didn't kill Bruce Harris,
Speaker 1: and on that last day during the surrender, there's proof
Speaker 1: of it. There's a video showing myself, Nicky Sports, Jason
Speaker 1: rob at Laville as some of the Muslim representative came
Speaker 1: from Kamoma's, Ohio, actually on the recreation yard. So once
Speaker 1: again the state put on pergy testimony. They allow prisoners
Speaker 1: to say that I was president for Bruce Parrish was
Speaker 1: being murdered, but when you look at the video, I
Speaker 1: was evection on the yard. So I was acquitted of
Speaker 1: that particular charge. Hassan was acquitted of killing Bruce Harris
Speaker 1: as well as one count of felonious assault. He was
Speaker 1: found guilty and sentenced sixty six to ninety five years
Speaker 1: for attempted murder, two kidnappings, felonious assault, and robbery. And
Speaker 1: as we already know by now he was given the
Speaker 1: death penalty for the murder of officer of a landing him.
Speaker 1: I reached out to the two prosecutors in Hassan's original trial,
Speaker 1: Gerald Crumpleback and Rick Gibson. If Rick Gibson's name sounds familiar,
Speaker 1: that's because he was also one of the prosecutors in
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Wogenstall's case, which we talked about in episode seven. Anyway,
Speaker 1: I reached out to Gibson and Crumpleback to see if
Speaker 1: they'd be willing to talk with me about Hassan's case,
Speaker 1: but neither of them have responded. Today, some twenty seven
Speaker 1: years since Hassan was convicted and sent to death row,
Speaker 1: his attorneys are still fighting to get him a new trial.
Speaker 1: Hassan says he was granted an evidentiary hearing based on
Speaker 1: three claims having to do with ineffective assistance of counsel.
Speaker 1: I am eight deals with ineffectives of counsel for failing
Speaker 1: to barely investigate my case and call witnesses that could
Speaker 1: have testified to my actual innocence or could have challenged
Speaker 1: the state case. The other one, claimed now would have
Speaker 1: been innocrctisistence of trial counsel for failing to thirdly or
Speaker 1: examine the witnesses that the state called to the scene.
Speaker 1: And thirty one deals with innosecti assistance a trial counsel
Speaker 1: for failing to investigate my upbringing, childhood for the purpose
Speaker 1: of medication. And those are just three of the many
Speaker 1: claims Hassan is raising. Depending on the outcome of that
Speaker 1: evidentiary hearing, Hassan could be granted a new trial. Until then.
Speaker 1: Because Hassan's case is still pending, no execution date has
Speaker 1: been set, Unlike Keith, who is sentenced to die on
Speaker 1: November sixteenth, twenty twenty three, I decide to circle back
Speaker 1: to see if Hassan might be open to answering some
Speaker 1: questions I still have about Keith. This time I jumped
Speaker 1: right in. Did you see him inside L six or
Speaker 1: the L block during the uprising in those early minutes
Speaker 1: and hours of the uprising? Not that I can recall. No.
Speaker 1: Lewis Jones testified at Keith's trial something to the effect of,
Speaker 1: like they came inside, you know, early on of the
Speaker 1: uprising to check on their belongings. They saw that stuff
Speaker 1: was going on, he said. Keith asked for permission to
Speaker 1: kill the snitches, and then you know if we can kill.
Speaker 1: If we kill the snitches, will you let us go.
Speaker 1: Does any of that sound familiar to you at all? No,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't. I'm looking not around. I'm not gonna say,
Speaker 1: don't not tell you. When they start Skinner's Snitches. I
Speaker 1: was in the Boxer's shop, welcome to some brothers, and
Speaker 1: that's when some people Muslims came and told me that
Speaker 1: they down down into you're putting the niches. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: thought the brothers, wok, go go get some of the brothers,
Speaker 1: some of the brothers on security and tell them to
Speaker 1: meet me down there. And we would talk for about
Speaker 1: a minute, and we saw walking and get people heard
Speaker 1: we would coming and whoever it was that was the
Speaker 1: Nailed six doing the killing, the death squire. What they
Speaker 1: became known about whoever they were, They had exited on
Speaker 1: their recreation job, so I didn't get to see who
Speaker 1: you work, So they were already gone by the time
Speaker 1: you made it over to L six and direct. So
Speaker 1: when you got to L six and you saw the
Speaker 1: people that you wanted put away for safe keeping had
Speaker 1: been murdered, what did you think one to know? How
Speaker 1: did they get in here? Who know them in? Yeah?
Speaker 1: And did you hear any names mentioned about who might
Speaker 1: have done these killings? Yeah? I hear a name, but
Speaker 1: not that I'm trying to conceal it. They think from
Speaker 1: you it would be a hearsay. And I don't have
Speaker 1: any courage. I had knowledge only what I hear, right,
Speaker 1: you know a lot of people came out and said
Speaker 1: Keith was the leader of the death squad. And if
Speaker 1: you the imam, you know, was the person who said
Speaker 1: these people need to be put away for safekeeping. Who's
Speaker 1: Keith to come in and say, well, no, open the cells,
Speaker 1: I'm going to kill them. It's just I wonder how
Speaker 1: he would have that kind of power, right, Actually, he
Speaker 1: wouldn't have their power. Don't awake somebody, I guess we
Speaker 1: say have their power or given their power them would
Speaker 1: have had to be done through a Muslim. A mustim
Speaker 1: the thunderstood someone's order a Muslim from them all say
Speaker 1: forgive them? Are they not moving? Mincrofift and found about
Speaker 1: being God and allows them in because there were a
Speaker 1: Muslim that would actually step guided about why do you
Speaker 1: let these guys in? This bob? They just opened the
Speaker 1: door for me to go. I'm on the range, so
Speaker 1: they let the ports. So I'm getting ready to go
Speaker 1: back to myself because I've been at two hours and
Speaker 1: an half and just like that, our time is up
Speaker 1: and Hussan has to go. I have a few more questions,
Speaker 1: so we speak one more time. Do you have any
Speaker 1: regrets or is there anything now looking back that you
Speaker 1: wish you had done differently? No, because I did everything
Speaker 1: that I possibly could. The problem is not within the
Speaker 1: Muslims of the problems within the one. So no, I
Speaker 1: don't have any regrets. What would you want to say
Speaker 1: to the investigators or to the prosecutors who tried your
Speaker 1: case for the state. I mean, there's nothing to stay
Speaker 1: with him, because more people already made up their mind
Speaker 1: to do something because in many cases, especially our profile cases,
Speaker 1: prosecutors are not trying to see suggests. They are more
Speaker 1: and less trying to do something to boost their political career.
Speaker 1: And when you look at that, when it comes to
Speaker 1: the Lucas uprising on no prosecutors who have become judge
Speaker 1: like Daniel Hogan and he's a judge now for Franklin County.
Speaker 1: They have put their kids to college, They are paid
Speaker 1: up all their mortgages. Those people doesn't have a conscious,
Speaker 1: so there's nothing to really say to them. I mean,
Speaker 1: it would be a waste of my breath. Rick Kerger,
Speaker 1: one of Hassan's original attorneys who didn't end up trying
Speaker 1: his case, was interviewed for D Jones's twenty thirteen documentary
Speaker 1: called The Great Incarcerator, and what Rick Kerger said in
Speaker 1: it kind of seems to sum it all up. I
Speaker 1: don't know what justice is. I mean, God may know
Speaker 1: what justice is, but I do know what's fair. Did
Speaker 1: we give a fair opportunity for Hassan and the others
Speaker 1: to defend themselves and the answers We didn't. There was
Speaker 1: a huge thumb on the scales of justice. And if
Speaker 1: we can do that to them, then they whoever on
Speaker 1: the system, can do it to you and me next
Speaker 1: time on the real killer. There's a lot of reasons
Speaker 1: for people to be against the death penalty. We take
Speaker 1: a hard look at capital punishment in Ohio. You may
Speaker 1: be surprised at who's coming together to try and end it. Technically,
Speaker 1: you could shoot them or hang them, but I have
Speaker 1: a strange feeling the people of Ohio aren't gonna lie either.
Speaker 1: Please check out at The Real Killer on Instagram for
Speaker 1: some never before seen photos and documents. Also, if you're
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Speaker 1: The Real Killer is a production of AYR Media and iHeartRadio,
Speaker 1: hosted by me Leah Rothman. Executive producers Leah Rothman and
Speaker 1: Eliza Rosen for AYR Media. Written by Leah Rothman, Executive
Speaker 1: producer Paulina Williams, Senior associate producer Jill Pasheznik, Coordinators George
Speaker 1: Famm and Melina Kryski. Editing and sound design by Cameron Taggy.
Speaker 1: Mixed and mastered by Cameron Taggy. Audio engineering by Matt Jacobsen.
Speaker 1: Studio engineering by Jay Brannon. Legal counsel for AYR Media,
Speaker 1: Gianni Douglas. Executive producer for iHeartRadio Maya Howard