WEBVTT - The Real Killer Season 2: Ep. 9, The Scapegoat 0:00:00.960 --> 0:00:05.320 A warning. This episode contains language and depictions of violence 0:00:05.519 --> 0:00:14.480 that may be disturbing to some listeners. Hello, this is 0:00:14.480 --> 0:00:23.400 a prepaid debit call from Sadiq Abdullah Hassan, the Sunni 0:00:23.520 --> 0:00:26.639 Muslim leader or imam at Lucasville at the time of 0:00:26.680 --> 0:00:31.120 the nineteen ninety three uprising, the uprising during which ten 0:00:31.160 --> 0:00:34.040 people were killed and Keith Lamar was sent to death 0:00:34.159 --> 0:00:38.280 row for five of them. Thank you for using TTL 0:00:40.120 --> 0:00:45.000 and good and good afternoon, Good afternoon. How are you? Oh? Thanks, 0:00:45.040 --> 0:00:50.199 consider I'm good. Hassan, formerly known as Carlos Sanders, was 0:00:50.280 --> 0:00:53.320 convicted of various crimes that took place during the uprising 0:00:53.680 --> 0:00:56.760 and sentenced to death for his alleged role in the 0:00:56.880 --> 0:01:01.200 murder of Officer Robert for Landingham. Hassan calls me from 0:01:01.200 --> 0:01:04.959 death row at the Ohio State Penitentiary, the same prison 0:01:05.240 --> 0:01:10.040 where Keith is. Thankfully, Hassan has agreed to speak with 0:01:10.080 --> 0:01:16.559 me about his story, his uprising, his case. I need 0:01:16.680 --> 0:01:19.440 to learn more about what happened back in nineteen ninety 0:01:19.480 --> 0:01:22.080 three from the man who was at the very center 0:01:22.200 --> 0:01:26.399 of it all. Is what transpired during those eleven brutal days, 0:01:26.480 --> 0:01:30.600 what he intended. Are there any similarities in the investigation 0:01:30.760 --> 0:01:34.520 and prosecution of his case and Keith's, and does he 0:01:34.560 --> 0:01:37.320 have any insight into whether or not Keith was the 0:01:37.400 --> 0:01:43.120 actual leader of the so called death squad. I don't 0:01:43.160 --> 0:01:46.160 want to use all of your time today so to 0:01:46.240 --> 0:02:01.960 decide for this purpose, I'm Leah Rothman. This is the 0:02:02.040 --> 0:02:15.520 Real Killer, Episode nine, The Scapegoat. I asked Keith a 0:02:15.520 --> 0:02:18.399 while back if he and Hassan, or he and any 0:02:18.400 --> 0:02:20.920 of the others from Lucasville who are housed at the 0:02:20.919 --> 0:02:26.440 Ohio State Penitentiary talk about their cases, compare notes, try 0:02:26.480 --> 0:02:30.760 to help each other. He said, no, there's an unwritten 0:02:30.840 --> 0:02:33.800 rule about it. It's just not something you do. It's 0:02:33.919 --> 0:02:37.920 not something you talk about. So I have no idea 0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:40.840 how Hassan will react when I ask him about Keith, 0:02:41.240 --> 0:02:44.160 if he'll shut me down or be open to talking. 0:02:44.600 --> 0:02:50.040 So at first I decide to tread lightly. Did you 0:02:50.080 --> 0:02:54.640 know him before the uprising? Yeah? And no, not know 0:02:54.840 --> 0:02:57.560 him personally. I've seen him fight in the box room 0:02:57.639 --> 0:03:01.560 range because I used to boxing right one day yards 0:03:01.639 --> 0:03:04.959 in the boxing ring. At another time, I was welcome 0:03:05.000 --> 0:03:07.920 with some Muslims. Who is going to trial, recreation job 0:03:08.040 --> 0:03:11.720 or somewhere and he had locks of some rosaries around 0:03:11.760 --> 0:03:16.760 his neck or some knees, and some of them fell off, 0:03:17.400 --> 0:03:22.280 and he became discouraged and sicklemof and I was like, 0:03:22.320 --> 0:03:25.239 oh man, I'll say, oh no, I'm gonna become discouraged. 0:03:25.240 --> 0:03:27.320 To pick him up, put him back home, you know, 0:03:27.520 --> 0:03:29.000 for me and some of the other Muslim pick him 0:03:29.080 --> 0:03:31.959 up and gave him time and what the riot happened 0:03:31.960 --> 0:03:33.880 and we end up on death row together. I brought 0:03:33.880 --> 0:03:37.680 that up to him, and he remembered that I planned 0:03:37.720 --> 0:03:39.880 to come back to the subject of Keith a bit 0:03:39.960 --> 0:03:45.240 later today. Hassan is sixty born and raised in Georgia. 0:03:45.360 --> 0:03:48.280 In nineteen seventy eight, at age fifteen, he was sent 0:03:48.440 --> 0:03:52.400 to a juvenile detention center for aggravated assault with intent 0:03:52.560 --> 0:03:55.760 to rob He says while he was there he escaped, 0:03:56.200 --> 0:03:58.560 so for that he was tried as an adult and 0:03:58.760 --> 0:04:02.560 transferred to prison. Eventually, he was released and moved to 0:04:02.560 --> 0:04:06.720 Ohio in nineteen eighty three. The next year, Hassan was 0:04:06.800 --> 0:04:11.280 convicted of aggravated robbery and sentenced thirteen to twenty five years. 0:04:12.280 --> 0:04:14.880 In April of nineteen eighty eight, at the age of 0:04:14.960 --> 0:04:22.039 twenty five, he was transferred to Lucasville. Lucasville, it was 0:04:22.160 --> 0:04:28.200 very loud. People would be thrown yurine pieces, bodily races 0:04:28.839 --> 0:04:34.000 on one another, thorn scolding coffee on one another faces. 0:04:34.040 --> 0:04:38.800 It was like like okay, care it was. It was 0:04:38.839 --> 0:04:41.279 just a wild environment. There was a lot of stabbing 0:04:41.440 --> 0:04:44.520 and murdering going on an institution, a lot of racism. 0:04:44.920 --> 0:04:47.720 There was a few black prisoners that were murdered by 0:04:47.880 --> 0:04:50.719 staff numbers. Can you tell me a little bit about 0:04:50.960 --> 0:04:56.400 how Warden Tate ran the prison? Okay, yes, Alka Kate 0:04:56.560 --> 0:05:00.800 Junior also known as king Off. The sent him there 0:05:00.960 --> 0:05:03.919 and his job was to straighten out the problem. And 0:05:04.120 --> 0:05:07.119 not only was prisoners, but even with staff numbers. Staff 0:05:07.200 --> 0:05:10.760 number had become accustomed to a certain culture and take. 0:05:10.880 --> 0:05:12.960 When he came, he didn't care who told that. He 0:05:13.000 --> 0:05:16.240 actually stepped on whether you were the inmate or whether 0:05:16.279 --> 0:05:19.760 you was a officer or a staff number. His position 0:05:19.920 --> 0:05:22.919 was this institution gonna be running my way or you 0:05:22.920 --> 0:05:26.440 could hit the otway. And how did you become the 0:05:26.520 --> 0:05:31.720 imm at Lucasville. My predecessor made his intention that he 0:05:31.800 --> 0:05:35.560 was going to step down from being the iman, which 0:05:35.560 --> 0:05:39.720 would be the spiritual leader and head of the Muslim community, 0:05:40.600 --> 0:05:43.960 and he said that he was hand picking me to 0:05:44.120 --> 0:05:47.000 be his professor. That must have felt great that you 0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:52.920 were chosen. No, absolutely, not to the contrary. I know 0:05:53.400 --> 0:05:56.800 because a lot of prisoners who had a very aggressive 0:05:56.839 --> 0:06:00.080 and assaulted type behavior, they was now being trying and 0:06:00.200 --> 0:06:03.760 for to Lucasviere and older people in Lucasville was now 0:06:03.880 --> 0:06:08.000 being moved out. So Lucasville used to be very violent, 0:06:08.880 --> 0:06:11.479 an abuse of type environment, but now you got a 0:06:11.480 --> 0:06:15.200 lot of young people came in and it's increased tremendously. 0:06:15.800 --> 0:06:19.400 So contrary to the popular opinion, No, I was not 0:06:19.560 --> 0:06:23.760 pleased to be appointed, but reluctantly I did accept the 0:06:23.839 --> 0:06:28.280 position of becoming dispirit ahead for the Muslims before the uprising, 0:06:28.560 --> 0:06:32.560 where were you housed? I was an honor block, and 0:06:32.640 --> 0:06:35.440 you have to be a person that out of trouble. 0:06:35.520 --> 0:06:37.440 You can't be getting in trouble to be an honor block. 0:06:37.920 --> 0:06:42.919 So I became more or less amount of prisoner staying 0:06:42.920 --> 0:06:46.120 out of trouble, good work performance and behavior, and being 0:06:46.400 --> 0:06:49.640 enrolled in the academical school you get a good time credit. 0:06:49.839 --> 0:06:52.479 I was one year away from the parole board at 0:06:52.480 --> 0:06:57.320 the time of the uprising. In episode two, we talked 0:06:57.360 --> 0:07:00.000 a lot about what happened in the days leading up 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:03.760 to the uprising, specifically in regard to the TB test 0:07:04.000 --> 0:07:07.560 Warden Arthur Tate planned to administer to those one hundred 0:07:07.560 --> 0:07:11.080 and fifty nine men who had previously refused it. The 0:07:11.200 --> 0:07:15.000 Muslim community believed the test, which contained phenol, was a 0:07:15.040 --> 0:07:18.240 form of alcohol, and for them being forced to consume 0:07:18.280 --> 0:07:22.360 alcohol was a violation of Islamic law and their religious freedoms. 0:07:23.120 --> 0:07:26.800 So the Muslim prisoners, led by Hassan, stood their ground. 0:07:27.680 --> 0:07:33.960 So did Warden Tate. Almost kind of him that just 0:07:34.080 --> 0:07:37.120 because the person comes to prison and adore the gates 0:07:37.160 --> 0:07:39.920 are actually closed behind him, that there's not fought for 0:07:40.040 --> 0:07:43.240 prisoners of their constitutional right. If you can use some 0:07:43.320 --> 0:07:47.800 other method that the upset pasury if for your analysis 0:07:47.840 --> 0:07:50.400 would suffice, If that will work, I mean we would 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:53.240 find him affect. His position was he was not going 0:07:53.320 --> 0:07:58.160 to allow prisoners, in this particular case Muslims to dictate 0:07:58.200 --> 0:08:01.920 to him. Are you run the institution? On Easter Sunday, 0:08:02.000 --> 0:08:06.000 April eleventh, the Muslim prisoners were determined to show Warden 0:08:06.040 --> 0:08:11.080 Tate who actually ran his institution, but Hassan says things 0:08:11.320 --> 0:08:15.120 did not go as planned. What you're about to hear 0:08:15.440 --> 0:08:18.960 is Hassan's behind the prison wall account of what he 0:08:19.000 --> 0:08:27.800 says happened. There was another intended to be an uprising, 0:08:28.000 --> 0:08:30.440 or if some people love to say, all right, to 0:08:30.520 --> 0:08:34.360 begin with, it's supposed to be a peaceful protest, you know, 0:08:34.480 --> 0:08:39.160 because opposition was coming in here institute knowledge rules. We 0:08:39.280 --> 0:08:42.599 felt if we could take over a certain place of 0:08:42.720 --> 0:08:46.000 the portion of the prison or one particular Bob and 0:08:46.160 --> 0:08:48.880 barricade ourselson and try to get the attention of the 0:08:49.000 --> 0:08:52.520 media and his superior in central office, that we can 0:08:52.600 --> 0:08:54.920 try to resolve the matter. The plans for it to 0:08:54.920 --> 0:08:58.200 be a non violent protest, right, But in order to 0:08:58.200 --> 0:09:00.719 barricade yourselves like you had to, like you got to 0:09:00.720 --> 0:09:02.440 get the guards out of there, right, So was that 0:09:02.559 --> 0:09:04.720 part of the plan? I mean, because I think the 0:09:04.760 --> 0:09:06.880 first thing that people on the yard saw was like 0:09:07.280 --> 0:09:10.000 a guard running out with blood running down his head. 0:09:10.120 --> 0:09:12.200 I mean, you guys had to get control in order 0:09:12.240 --> 0:09:17.199 to barricade yourselves in, right, absolutely. And you know there 0:09:17.200 --> 0:09:20.040 are some people who may be submissive and some people 0:09:20.040 --> 0:09:23.760 who wouldn't be submissive. I can't say because I was 0:09:23.800 --> 0:09:26.080 not part of why this particularly, I don't know if 0:09:26.080 --> 0:09:29.000 it was one of the people who initially took over 0:09:29.720 --> 0:09:33.120 of the area or just somebody seeing the opportunity that 0:09:33.240 --> 0:09:36.440 these officers are losing they post and just took opportunity 0:09:37.160 --> 0:09:40.720 to attack an officer. I don't know what the circumstances were, 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:45.640 but yes, everyone knows that you have to have bargaining ships, 0:09:45.640 --> 0:09:49.120 and you have no bargaining ships. Why would they allow 0:09:49.160 --> 0:09:52.360 you to just barricade yourself there if you've got something 0:09:52.400 --> 0:09:56.560 to negotiate with, So yes, people would obviously know that 0:09:57.120 --> 0:10:01.320 piece would take in the officer hostice and and and 0:10:01.440 --> 0:10:05.280 trying to use them as bargaining ships to achieve your objectives. 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:10.280 So the hostages that were taken there were I think 0:10:10.360 --> 0:10:13.959 twelve initially, but then some were released. And then because 0:10:13.960 --> 0:10:17.200 like I said, nobody wanted to see any hostage or 0:10:17.240 --> 0:10:20.760 anyone being harmed, so when people were asked when the 0:10:20.800 --> 0:10:24.440 guards was harmed, they released them without any strange attached. 0:10:24.520 --> 0:10:27.120 They didn't ask for anything for it. They wanted them 0:10:27.120 --> 0:10:30.200 to get medical attention immediately. So yes, one of the 0:10:30.240 --> 0:10:33.680 things they did we did was released false hostages. From 0:10:33.679 --> 0:10:37.200 the beginning, what was intended to be a peaceful protest 0:10:37.240 --> 0:10:41.480 and turned into a full scale rebellion. Hastin says his 0:10:41.559 --> 0:10:46.480 peaceful protest was hijacked, the result a full scale rebellion. 0:10:49.760 --> 0:10:52.280 There was a group of people they became known and 0:10:52.720 --> 0:10:57.800 transciss and stuff. I've read at the death Squad. They 0:10:57.920 --> 0:11:01.400 was gone around filling people doing the nite a part 0:11:01.480 --> 0:11:04.520 of the uprising. Tell me if I've got this right 0:11:04.640 --> 0:11:08.640 or not. But I read that you wanted to put 0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:13.360 these people who were alleged snitches in cells, locked in 0:11:13.440 --> 0:11:17.880 cells for their own safety. Is that true? Yes, In 0:11:18.000 --> 0:11:21.160 the beginning, when people were talking about killing the snitches, 0:11:22.080 --> 0:11:24.520 killing the snitches, like killing all the Homosexes, you're gonna 0:11:24.520 --> 0:11:27.200 have bodies all over this place. No, if you feel 0:11:27.240 --> 0:11:30.800 they snitches and you're concerned about them seeing you do something, 0:11:31.040 --> 0:11:33.440 but just lock them up and they sail and they can't. 0:11:33.520 --> 0:11:36.199 They won't be running around their institutions. So people was 0:11:36.280 --> 0:11:40.600 being locked up in l six for their protection, you know. 0:11:40.679 --> 0:11:43.520 So that's that's the moment that you're talking about. But 0:11:43.600 --> 0:11:46.080 then when I left from this area and went to 0:11:46.160 --> 0:11:49.679 the bobby shop and was talking to some Muslims, because 0:11:49.679 --> 0:11:52.120 about forty five minutes an hour, so then you know 0:11:52.120 --> 0:11:54.840 they're not they're killing the snitches. So the plan is 0:11:54.880 --> 0:12:00.280 for this non violent protest. When you see what is unfolding, 0:12:00.480 --> 0:12:03.959 I mean, were you freaking out? I mean because if 0:12:04.120 --> 0:12:09.160 it wasn't what you wanted right, And then all of 0:12:08.720 --> 0:12:10.920 the brothers told me said, man, you need to saida 0:12:11.080 --> 0:12:13.440 you might having a panic attack. One of the Muslim 0:12:13.480 --> 0:12:16.960 brothers comings and his over security and he appointed some 0:12:17.000 --> 0:12:19.120 of the brothers to take me in the room and 0:12:19.200 --> 0:12:21.080 let me realize. He says, look, we got this, just 0:12:21.080 --> 0:12:23.240 go relax of few minutes. Man, they're like, keep having 0:12:23.280 --> 0:12:25.880 a panic attack. So if that's what you mean by 0:12:25.960 --> 0:12:28.400 freaking out, then yes, I said, hold on, go get 0:12:28.440 --> 0:12:29.880 some of the brothers. Don't get some of the brothers 0:12:29.880 --> 0:12:31.719 own security and tell him out to meet me back 0:12:31.720 --> 0:12:34.199 in the Bobby shop. So they met Beckam. The bobby 0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:37.880 shop is about fifteen twenty Muslims. They had all different 0:12:37.920 --> 0:12:40.559 types of weapons as federer and we was on our 0:12:40.600 --> 0:12:43.000 way going toward L six some kind of way. The 0:12:43.000 --> 0:12:46.280 people that burn down they murdering. The people in L 0:12:46.400 --> 0:12:49.000 six had heard that we was coming and they ran 0:12:49.080 --> 0:12:51.400 out on the reclaration yard. And when I came on 0:12:51.559 --> 0:12:55.320 myself and other Muslim came into L six. We've seen 0:12:55.480 --> 0:12:58.280 people and people was gagging for air, and I told 0:12:58.280 --> 0:12:59.839 people to get him off and get some of these 0:12:59.840 --> 0:13:01.960 other guys out. So they took them and took them 0:13:01.960 --> 0:13:04.280 to the reparation yard, and some of them actually survived. 0:13:05.240 --> 0:13:08.800 Three men survived their beatings, Andrey Stockton was one of them. 0:13:09.080 --> 0:13:12.000 You met him in the last episode. The rest of 0:13:12.040 --> 0:13:15.199 the death Squad's victims and L six did not survive. 0:13:16.800 --> 0:13:20.800 And what happened was people were saying that the majority 0:13:20.800 --> 0:13:23.480 of the people that was killed was white. For now 0:13:23.559 --> 0:13:25.679 white a sense of fear as if it was a 0:13:25.760 --> 0:13:27.920 racial thing, and we knew it was not racial. It 0:13:28.000 --> 0:13:31.199 would never intended to be a right uprising to begin with, 0:13:31.559 --> 0:13:35.200 and everything was real jedery and people were feeling uncomfortable. 0:13:35.559 --> 0:13:39.640 So I think uprising or happened round three o'clock a 0:13:39.760 --> 0:13:43.280 coast to three o'clock, so maybe by eight thirty then 0:13:43.320 --> 0:13:46.559 they coming. He got on the bullhun and said, look, 0:13:47.679 --> 0:13:50.640 we're getting ready to say our prayers, and we asked 0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:54.440 that y'all be hold down the noise, so give us 0:13:54.440 --> 0:13:57.360 the respect that we would give y'all. And while we 0:13:57.400 --> 0:14:01.840 say our prayers, and after we got who standing, Commons 0:14:01.840 --> 0:14:05.280 got on the bullhorn again and he said that if 0:14:05.360 --> 0:14:10.480 anybody Kristen, Jews or whatever your religious nomination is, y'all 0:14:10.480 --> 0:14:13.719 want to come down here and pray, y'all can come 0:14:13.760 --> 0:14:16.320 down here in the same error that we use and pray. 0:14:16.800 --> 0:14:20.600 And he also requested that they give the other people 0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:23.240 that came down the same respect that they gave the 0:14:23.320 --> 0:14:26.840 Muslim being quiet while they're praying. And that was like 0:14:26.920 --> 0:14:28.760 the ice and on the cake that broke up a 0:14:28.760 --> 0:14:32.320 lot of detention. From that point on, the three main 0:14:32.360 --> 0:14:37.360 groups previous enemies, remember, the Sunni Muslims, the Aryan Brotherhood, 0:14:37.480 --> 0:14:41.080 and the Black gangster disciples put their differences aside and 0:14:41.160 --> 0:14:45.160 formed a common bond with each other against the prison administration. 0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:50.240 So as the days are dragging on, what are you thinking? 0:14:50.640 --> 0:14:52.360 I didn't think it was going well. I think the 0:14:52.400 --> 0:14:57.080 prison authorities with trying they darn best in their mind 0:14:57.800 --> 0:15:01.680 for good reasons to use stall characters, trying to get 0:15:01.720 --> 0:15:07.280 their officers back without having to give up a whole lot, 0:15:07.960 --> 0:15:10.880 and prisoners was not willing to do that because we 0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:14.920 understood if there was no hostages, they would have thrown 0:15:15.000 --> 0:15:18.400 the place long comic goal and people would have been 0:15:18.480 --> 0:15:21.760 murdered and seriously injured, and it was not going to 0:15:21.920 --> 0:15:25.720 will Then, as we know by now, things took a 0:15:25.760 --> 0:15:30.440 major turn on Thursday the fifteenth. How did things change 0:15:31.400 --> 0:15:36.760 after the Landingham was killed? Once the Landingham body was 0:15:36.840 --> 0:15:40.760 placed on the recreation yard a kind of speed up 0:15:40.760 --> 0:15:44.240 the process. The prison authorities knocked stot trying to operate 0:15:44.760 --> 0:15:49.440 or negotiate in good faith. Eventually negotiator Nikki Schwartz was 0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:53.640 brought in. Then three days later the uprising finally ended. 0:15:53.960 --> 0:15:58.080 How did you feel when it was over? I mean relieved, 0:15:58.520 --> 0:16:01.800 peer could have been over a lot much sona, but 0:16:01.920 --> 0:16:20.240 obviously felt relieved. Hassan's relief was short lived. I continue 0:16:20.280 --> 0:16:23.480 my conversation with the former m MOM at Lucasville, Sadiq 0:16:23.560 --> 0:16:27.640 Abdellah Hassan. So the investigation is led by the Ohio 0:16:27.680 --> 0:16:31.520 State Highway Patrol. Talked to me about being interviewed. I 0:16:31.640 --> 0:16:35.440 was never interviewed once, not because I refused. They never 0:16:36.160 --> 0:16:39.360 even attempt to interview me. They had already said in 0:16:39.400 --> 0:16:41.960 a mind that I was going to be used as 0:16:41.960 --> 0:16:45.400 a scapegoat. They had already decided to put the point 0:16:45.400 --> 0:16:48.320 of thing at me, So I never spoke to them once. 0:16:48.480 --> 0:16:50.960 I never refused the speak to them, and they never 0:16:51.000 --> 0:16:54.280 made an attempt to speak to me. Hassan says he 0:16:54.400 --> 0:16:57.440 was never interviewed by the Ohio State Highway Patrol, so 0:16:57.560 --> 0:17:00.080 his name would not be on that list of interviews 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:04.639 they conducted. I check the index, and he's right. Someone 0:17:04.680 --> 0:17:08.560 else's name is also not on that list, Jason Rob, 0:17:08.800 --> 0:17:11.600 one of the other so called leaders during the uprising. 0:17:12.400 --> 0:17:15.520 Jason Rob's name isn't in here either, right. He said 0:17:15.520 --> 0:17:18.080 the same thing with him, so I guess mean him 0:17:18.080 --> 0:17:22.000 within the same boat, being too leaders, a sports person 0:17:22.119 --> 0:17:25.040 doing the uprising, that they had no intention to come 0:17:25.080 --> 0:17:27.879 at the top those they're already decide that they was 0:17:27.920 --> 0:17:31.400 going to make of the straight goa. James Ware's name 0:17:31.640 --> 0:17:35.359 is also nowhere on that list of interviews. He's another 0:17:35.400 --> 0:17:38.200 one of the so called Lucasville Five, the five men 0:17:38.400 --> 0:17:41.720 sentenced to death for their alleged crimes in the uprising. 0:17:42.560 --> 0:17:45.840 So these three guys who have been sentenced to death 0:17:46.119 --> 0:17:51.480 were never interviewed by investigators, So many of these interviews 0:17:51.640 --> 0:17:55.240 weren't recorded. Why not record him? Why pick and choose 0:17:55.240 --> 0:17:59.200 when to record these interviews? Abductive or someone saying something 0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:01.680 that you won't here, then you want to play the 0:18:01.760 --> 0:18:04.679 recording and make it seem like you just thought him. 0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:06.919 But no, you already had a conversation with them Houra 0:18:07.000 --> 0:18:10.320 two hours, two days before, and now you want to 0:18:10.480 --> 0:18:12.560 you already know what they're going to say, but you're 0:18:12.600 --> 0:18:14.760 not going to play something not knowing what they're going 0:18:14.800 --> 0:18:17.560 to say. So you only want to receive the information 0:18:17.600 --> 0:18:21.199 that is favorable. By the way, George Skates, maybe the 0:18:21.240 --> 0:18:24.760 most front and center spokesperson for the prisoners during the uprising, 0:18:25.320 --> 0:18:30.840 also currently on death row, was only interviewed twice by investigators, 0:18:30.880 --> 0:18:35.439 and neither one of those interviews were recorded. Is it 0:18:35.560 --> 0:18:39.639 just me or does that seem strange? What were you 0:18:39.760 --> 0:18:43.680 charged with? I was charged with fifteen charges. I can't 0:18:43.680 --> 0:18:45.720 remember all them, but I know I was a charge 0:18:45.720 --> 0:18:48.879 with two counts of capital murder, one with regard to 0:18:48.960 --> 0:18:52.320 Officer landing him another work regards to end a by 0:18:52.359 --> 0:18:55.280 the name of Bruce Harris. He was murdered on the 0:18:55.440 --> 0:18:58.359 last day the death of surrender. Did you have anything 0:18:58.359 --> 0:19:03.040 to do with Officer of Landingham's No, absolutely not. He 0:19:03.240 --> 0:19:05.520 was the officer that used to be in mob block. 0:19:05.840 --> 0:19:07.959 He was a nice person. In fact, he was the 0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:12.760 most nicest one of all the officers there. Hassan says 0:19:12.840 --> 0:19:15.720 as he prepared to go to trial, one of the 0:19:15.760 --> 0:19:19.480 biggest issues he faced had to do with his representation. 0:19:20.040 --> 0:19:23.880 His two original attorneys, Rick Kerger and Charles Boss basically 0:19:23.880 --> 0:19:26.280 told the judge that they could not with what time 0:19:26.320 --> 0:19:31.280 and money they were allotted, properly represent Hassan In time, 0:19:31.520 --> 0:19:34.880 they were replaced with two other attorneys out of Cincinnati. 0:19:35.600 --> 0:19:39.720 In January of nineteen ninety six, after two changes of venue, 0:19:39.840 --> 0:19:44.680 Hassan goes on trial in Hamilton County, Ohio. And what 0:19:44.760 --> 0:19:47.240 was the makeup of your joury? They loved a white 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:50.919 and one black on my jury, a black gay, and 0:19:51.040 --> 0:19:53.639 even the state chatter removed him from my case. But 0:19:53.760 --> 0:19:56.200 the judge he seems to do so because he no 0:19:56.440 --> 0:20:00.680 base on the case. Come out of Kentucky. About all 0:20:00.960 --> 0:20:03.600 removing blacks from jury, I would end up probably getting 0:20:03.600 --> 0:20:08.800 a reversal. Sounds a bit familiar. Hassen's jury was made 0:20:08.840 --> 0:20:12.639 up of eleven whites and one black. Keith's jury was 0:20:13.040 --> 0:20:17.160 all white. Then there's something else Hassan brings up that 0:20:17.359 --> 0:20:22.880 I know I've heard before alleged issues with exculpatory evidence, 0:20:23.440 --> 0:20:25.440 and my child to state that that your honor, we're 0:20:25.440 --> 0:20:29.240 not aware of any exculpatory information for this particular defendant. 0:20:29.680 --> 0:20:32.040 But the judge say, is not about whether you are 0:20:32.040 --> 0:20:34.760 aware or not. You have to go into the rector 0:20:35.800 --> 0:20:39.280 fives and see if they have any exculpatory information, because 0:20:39.280 --> 0:20:41.879 it come out later on than there is. The dates 0:20:41.880 --> 0:20:45.600 can end up being dismissed for lack of revealing this 0:20:45.800 --> 0:20:50.600 exculpatory information. So we had another preach r hearing maybe 0:20:50.640 --> 0:20:53.800 sixty or ninety days later, and my prosecutor saying, we're honor, 0:20:54.080 --> 0:20:58.800 we searched the file and there's no exculportory information. What 0:20:59.040 --> 0:21:03.040 physical evidence did they have against you? Absolutely not no 0:21:03.119 --> 0:21:09.000 physical evidence. So if there's no physical evidence against you, 0:21:09.600 --> 0:21:26.400 what did the state have? I continue my conversation with 0:21:26.440 --> 0:21:32.560 Saddiq Abdallah Hassan. So if there's no physical evidence against you, 0:21:33.200 --> 0:21:37.280 what did the state have? Self serving or in makes 0:21:37.520 --> 0:21:42.359 game testimony more than that took themselves, deflected attention from 0:21:42.400 --> 0:21:45.359 themselves in place to blame on myself the fact that 0:21:45.400 --> 0:21:50.200 I was the spiritual leader of the Muslims and being 0:21:50.200 --> 0:21:52.639 the leader I guess h and there my I becomes 0:21:52.720 --> 0:21:58.399 my brother keeper. So they relied on the testimony of E. 0:21:58.760 --> 0:22:04.400 In the real snargrass all people who got deals, all 0:22:04.440 --> 0:22:08.960 people who got deals rights set. He participated that murders, 0:22:09.400 --> 0:22:11.760 he kidnapped guards, and a lot of those cases he 0:22:11.880 --> 0:22:15.159 was not charged with. After the devil was charged with 0:22:15.200 --> 0:22:19.120 the guards murdered, but he turned state and said what 0:22:19.160 --> 0:22:23.600 the state wanted him to say. Anthony Lavelle and Roger 0:22:23.640 --> 0:22:27.639 Snodgrass reportedly both took plea bargains and were released from 0:22:27.680 --> 0:22:31.880 prison many years ago. I've tried finding both men, but 0:22:32.240 --> 0:22:37.040 haven't had any luck. Interestingly enough, though, Roger Snodgrass in 0:22:37.119 --> 0:22:43.960 twenty sixteen did participate in the Netflix show Captive Anas 0:22:44.160 --> 0:22:48.520 and this I gave up information on guys to the authorities. Right, 0:22:48.960 --> 0:22:51.480 It makes no difference to me. If you're judging me, 0:22:51.520 --> 0:22:54.359 and you're judging me, you judge you, and anybody else 0:22:54.400 --> 0:22:56.720 wants to judge me. For a fine man, judge me 0:22:56.960 --> 0:23:02.200 all right, put yourself in my shoes. You know, see 0:23:02.240 --> 0:23:06.359 how you handle that situation. I don't think most people 0:23:07.000 --> 0:23:10.480 would still have enough mind to be saying. After all 0:23:10.520 --> 0:23:12.800 the ship that I've seen and done and been through 0:23:12.880 --> 0:23:23.440 in that fucking ride. Yeah, it's I feel man. And 0:23:23.720 --> 0:23:27.919 one more thing about Anthony Lavelle. He was allegedly the 0:23:28.000 --> 0:23:31.120 leader of the Black Gangster Disciples, one of the three 0:23:31.160 --> 0:23:34.600 groups in charge during the uprising. Hassan just said a 0:23:34.640 --> 0:23:38.080 minute ago that Lavelle cooperated with the authorities and in 0:23:38.160 --> 0:23:41.879 turn got some sort of deal. Well, what I find 0:23:42.000 --> 0:23:44.960 curious is that of the five people sitting on death row, 0:23:45.760 --> 0:23:50.160 no one from the Black Gangster Disciples is there. How 0:23:50.240 --> 0:23:52.840 did that happen? How is it that they are the 0:23:52.960 --> 0:23:56.720 only ones of the three groups in charge that managed 0:23:56.840 --> 0:24:00.800 to avoid being sent to death row. Could there alleged 0:24:00.960 --> 0:24:06.360 participation like Anthony Lavelle's have anything to do with it. 0:24:09.040 --> 0:24:13.679 Then there's Kenneth's Law. That's another name you haven't heard before. 0:24:14.600 --> 0:24:18.119 He said that myself and James where the one that 0:24:18.240 --> 0:24:23.280 actually had the officer murder. I gave James Where the order. 0:24:23.800 --> 0:24:27.960 But that's not physical evidence. That's based on hearsay and 0:24:28.160 --> 0:24:31.320 the deal they made with Kenneth Law that he must 0:24:31.400 --> 0:24:34.960 testify to the truth of his statement. If he deviate 0:24:35.080 --> 0:24:39.000 away from his statement, then they was going to reindice him. 0:24:39.240 --> 0:24:42.560 They gave him a polygraph test. He failed a polygraph 0:24:42.600 --> 0:24:46.120 test polygraph test saying that he was telling a blatant lie, 0:24:46.680 --> 0:24:49.640 but number the mess myself and other was convicted based 0:24:49.680 --> 0:24:54.040 on his testimony. Did Kenneth Law end up recanting, Yes, 0:24:54.280 --> 0:24:57.720 after the fact, But you know recantation as many case 0:24:57.800 --> 0:24:59.840 all throughout the United States where people trying to RecA 0:25:00.320 --> 0:25:03.080 and the prosecutor with challenge it's saying original statement in 0:25:03.160 --> 0:25:06.000 the chimp and the recantation is a lot. But no, 0:25:06.520 --> 0:25:10.160 his recantation is not a lot. In an affidavit from 0:25:10.160 --> 0:25:13.359 March ninth, two thousand and referring to the trials of 0:25:13.440 --> 0:25:17.600 Hassan and James Ware, Kenneth Law said quote, I was 0:25:17.680 --> 0:25:21.439 interviewed several times before both trials and was told what 0:25:21.520 --> 0:25:25.720 to say. Kenneth Law, who was convicted of kidnapping officer 0:25:25.720 --> 0:25:29.879 of the Landingham and pled guilty to conspiracy to commit 0:25:29.960 --> 0:25:34.280 murder in his death, is currently still incarcerated at Northeast 0:25:34.359 --> 0:25:38.520 Ohio Correctional Center. His next parole hearing is scheduled for 0:25:38.640 --> 0:25:42.760 November of twenty twenty five. The trooper didn't know Field Lanham, 0:25:43.080 --> 0:25:45.840 and all they was interested in is putting the blame 0:25:46.080 --> 0:25:48.800 at the doorsteps of the leaders of people who was 0:25:48.880 --> 0:25:51.600 sportsperson trying to bring about a piece of silver in 0:25:51.640 --> 0:25:58.280 the uprising. In addition to Officer of the Landingham's murder, 0:25:58.480 --> 0:26:02.800 Hassan was also charged with Bruce Harris's murder. Bruce Harris 0:26:02.880 --> 0:26:05.120 was believed to have been killed on the last day 0:26:05.200 --> 0:26:09.120