1 00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:05,320 Speaker 1: A warning. This episode contains language and depictions of violence 2 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 1: that may be disturbing to some listeners. Hello, this is 3 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 1: a prepaid debit call from Sadiq Abdullah Hassan, the Sunni 4 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:26,639 Speaker 1: Muslim leader or imam at Lucasville at the time of 5 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 1: the nineteen ninety three uprising, the uprising during which ten 6 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 1: people were killed and Keith Lamar was sent to death 7 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:38,280 Speaker 1: row for five of them. Thank you for using TTL 8 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 1: and good and good afternoon, Good afternoon. How are you? Oh? Thanks, 9 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:50,199 Speaker 1: consider I'm good. Hassan, formerly known as Carlos Sanders, was 10 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 1: convicted of various crimes that took place during the uprising 11 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 1: and sentenced to death for his alleged role in the 12 00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 1: murder of Officer Robert for Landingham. Hassan calls me from 13 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:04,959 Speaker 1: death row at the Ohio State Penitentiary, the same prison 14 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:10,040 Speaker 1: where Keith is. Thankfully, Hassan has agreed to speak with 15 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:16,559 Speaker 1: me about his story, his uprising, his case. I need 16 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 1: to learn more about what happened back in nineteen ninety 17 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 1: three from the man who was at the very center 18 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:26,399 Speaker 1: of it all. Is what transpired during those eleven brutal days, 19 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 1: what he intended. Are there any similarities in the investigation 20 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 1: and prosecution of his case and Keith's, and does he 21 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:37,320 Speaker 1: have any insight into whether or not Keith was the 22 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:43,120 Speaker 1: actual leader of the so called death squad. I don't 23 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 1: want to use all of your time today so to 24 00:01:46,240 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 1: decide for this purpose, I'm Leah Rothman. This is the 25 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 1: Real Killer, Episode nine, The Scapegoat. I asked Keith a 26 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:18,399 Speaker 1: while back if he and Hassan, or he and any 27 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:20,920 Speaker 1: of the others from Lucasville who are housed at the 28 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 1: Ohio State Penitentiary talk about their cases, compare notes, try 29 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 1: to help each other. He said, no, there's an unwritten 30 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 1: rule about it. It's just not something you do. It's 31 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:37,920 Speaker 1: not something you talk about. So I have no idea 32 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 1: how Hassan will react when I ask him about Keith, 33 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 1: if he'll shut me down or be open to talking. 34 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: So at first I decide to tread lightly. Did you 35 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:54,640 Speaker 1: know him before the uprising? Yeah? And no, not know 36 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 1: him personally. I've seen him fight in the box room 37 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 1: range because I used to boxing right one day yards 38 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:04,959 Speaker 1: in the boxing ring. At another time, I was welcome 39 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:07,920 Speaker 1: with some Muslims. Who is going to trial, recreation job 40 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 1: or somewhere and he had locks of some rosaries around 41 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 1: his neck or some knees, and some of them fell off, 42 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 1: and he became discouraged and sicklemof and I was like, 43 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:25,239 Speaker 1: oh man, I'll say, oh no, I'm gonna become discouraged. 44 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 1: To pick him up, put him back home, you know, 45 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 1: for me and some of the other Muslim pick him 46 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:31,959 Speaker 1: up and gave him time and what the riot happened 47 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 1: and we end up on death row together. I brought 48 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 1: that up to him, and he remembered that I planned 49 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 1: to come back to the subject of Keith a bit 50 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 1: later today. Hassan is sixty born and raised in Georgia. 51 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 1: In nineteen seventy eight, at age fifteen, he was sent 52 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 1: to a juvenile detention center for aggravated assault with intent 53 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 1: to rob He says while he was there he escaped, 54 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 1: so for that he was tried as an adult and 55 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 1: transferred to prison. Eventually, he was released and moved to 56 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 1: Ohio in nineteen eighty three. The next year, Hassan was 57 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 1: convicted of aggravated robbery and sentenced thirteen to twenty five years. 58 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 1: In April of nineteen eighty eight, at the age of 59 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:22,039 Speaker 1: twenty five, he was transferred to Lucasville. Lucasville, it was 60 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 1: very loud. People would be thrown yurine pieces, bodily races 61 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 1: on one another, thorn scolding coffee on one another faces. 62 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 1: It was like like okay, care it was. It was 63 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:41,279 Speaker 1: just a wild environment. There was a lot of stabbing 64 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 1: and murdering going on an institution, a lot of racism. 65 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:47,720 Speaker 1: There was a few black prisoners that were murdered by 66 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:50,719 Speaker 1: staff numbers. Can you tell me a little bit about 67 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 1: how Warden Tate ran the prison? Okay, yes, Alka Kate 68 00:04:56,560 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 1: Junior also known as king Off. The sent him there 69 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:03,919 Speaker 1: and his job was to straighten out the problem. And 70 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:07,119 Speaker 1: not only was prisoners, but even with staff numbers. Staff 71 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 1: number had become accustomed to a certain culture and take. 72 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 1: When he came, he didn't care who told that. He 73 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 1: actually stepped on whether you were the inmate or whether 74 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 1: you was a officer or a staff number. His position 75 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:22,919 Speaker 1: was this institution gonna be running my way or you 76 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 1: could hit the otway. And how did you become the 77 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:31,720 Speaker 1: imm at Lucasville. My predecessor made his intention that he 78 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 1: was going to step down from being the iman, which 79 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:39,720 Speaker 1: would be the spiritual leader and head of the Muslim community, 80 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 1: and he said that he was hand picking me to 81 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: be his professor. That must have felt great that you 82 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:52,920 Speaker 1: were chosen. No, absolutely, not to the contrary. I know 83 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 1: because a lot of prisoners who had a very aggressive 84 00:05:56,839 --> 00:06:00,080 Speaker 1: and assaulted type behavior, they was now being trying and 85 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 1: for to Lucasviere and older people in Lucasville was now 86 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 1: being moved out. So Lucasville used to be very violent, 87 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:11,479 Speaker 1: an abuse of type environment, but now you got a 88 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 1: lot of young people came in and it's increased tremendously. 89 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: So contrary to the popular opinion, No, I was not 90 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 1: pleased to be appointed, but reluctantly I did accept the 91 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:28,280 Speaker 1: position of becoming dispirit ahead for the Muslims before the uprising, 92 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 1: where were you housed? I was an honor block, and 93 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 1: you have to be a person that out of trouble. 94 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 1: You can't be getting in trouble to be an honor block. 95 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:42,919 Speaker 1: So I became more or less amount of prisoner staying 96 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 1: out of trouble, good work performance and behavior, and being 97 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:49,640 Speaker 1: enrolled in the academical school you get a good time credit. 98 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:52,479 Speaker 1: I was one year away from the parole board at 99 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 1: the time of the uprising. In episode two, we talked 100 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 1: a lot about what happened in the days leading up 101 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 1: to the uprising, specifically in regard to the TB test 102 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 1: Warden Arthur Tate planned to administer to those one hundred 103 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 1: and fifty nine men who had previously refused it. The 104 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 1: Muslim community believed the test, which contained phenol, was a 105 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 1: form of alcohol, and for them being forced to consume 106 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 1: alcohol was a violation of Islamic law and their religious freedoms. 107 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 1: So the Muslim prisoners, led by Hassan, stood their ground. 108 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 1: So did Warden Tate. Almost kind of him that just 109 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 1: because the person comes to prison and adore the gates 110 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 1: are actually closed behind him, that there's not fought for 111 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:43,240 Speaker 1: prisoners of their constitutional right. If you can use some 112 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 1: other method that the upset pasury if for your analysis 113 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 1: would suffice, If that will work, I mean we would 114 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 1: find him affect. His position was he was not going 115 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 1: to allow prisoners, in this particular case Muslims to dictate 116 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 1: to him. Are you run the institution? On Easter Sunday, 117 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 1: April eleventh, the Muslim prisoners were determined to show Warden 118 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 1: Tate who actually ran his institution, but Hassan says things 119 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 1: did not go as planned. What you're about to hear 120 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 1: is Hassan's behind the prison wall account of what he 121 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 1: says happened. There was another intended to be an uprising, 122 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 1: or if some people love to say, all right, to 123 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 1: begin with, it's supposed to be a peaceful protest, you know, 124 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 1: because opposition was coming in here institute knowledge rules. We 125 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:42,599 Speaker 1: felt if we could take over a certain place of 126 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 1: the portion of the prison or one particular Bob and 127 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 1: barricade ourselson and try to get the attention of the 128 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:52,520 Speaker 1: media and his superior in central office, that we can 129 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 1: try to resolve the matter. The plans for it to 130 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:58,200 Speaker 1: be a non violent protest, right, But in order to 131 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:00,719 Speaker 1: barricade yourselves like you had to, like you got to 132 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:02,440 Speaker 1: get the guards out of there, right, So was that 133 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 1: part of the plan? I mean, because I think the 134 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 1: first thing that people on the yard saw was like 135 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: a guard running out with blood running down his head. 136 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 1: I mean, you guys had to get control in order 137 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:17,199 Speaker 1: to barricade yourselves in, right, absolutely. And you know there 138 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 1: are some people who may be submissive and some people 139 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 1: who wouldn't be submissive. I can't say because I was 140 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 1: not part of why this particularly, I don't know if 141 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 1: it was one of the people who initially took over 142 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 1: of the area or just somebody seeing the opportunity that 143 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 1: these officers are losing they post and just took opportunity 144 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:40,720 Speaker 1: to attack an officer. I don't know what the circumstances were, 145 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 1: but yes, everyone knows that you have to have bargaining ships, 146 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 1: and you have no bargaining ships. Why would they allow 147 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:52,360 Speaker 1: you to just barricade yourself there if you've got something 148 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:56,560 Speaker 1: to negotiate with, So yes, people would obviously know that 149 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 1: piece would take in the officer hostice and and and 150 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 1: trying to use them as bargaining ships to achieve your objectives. 151 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 1: So the hostages that were taken there were I think 152 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:13,959 Speaker 1: twelve initially, but then some were released. And then because 153 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:17,200 Speaker 1: like I said, nobody wanted to see any hostage or 154 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 1: anyone being harmed, so when people were asked when the 155 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:24,440 Speaker 1: guards was harmed, they released them without any strange attached. 156 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 1: They didn't ask for anything for it. They wanted them 157 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:30,200 Speaker 1: to get medical attention immediately. So yes, one of the 158 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:33,680 Speaker 1: things they did we did was released false hostages. From 159 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 1: the beginning, what was intended to be a peaceful protest 160 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 1: and turned into a full scale rebellion. Hastin says his 161 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 1: peaceful protest was hijacked, the result a full scale rebellion. 162 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 1: There was a group of people they became known and 163 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 1: transciss and stuff. I've read at the death Squad. They 164 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 1: was gone around filling people doing the nite a part 165 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 1: of the uprising. Tell me if I've got this right 166 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 1: or not. But I read that you wanted to put 167 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 1: these people who were alleged snitches in cells, locked in 168 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 1: cells for their own safety. Is that true? Yes, In 169 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 1: the beginning, when people were talking about killing the snitches, 170 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 1: killing the snitches, like killing all the Homosexes, you're gonna 171 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:27,200 Speaker 1: have bodies all over this place. No, if you feel 172 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 1: they snitches and you're concerned about them seeing you do something, 173 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:33,440 Speaker 1: but just lock them up and they sail and they can't. 174 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:36,199 Speaker 1: They won't be running around their institutions. So people was 175 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 1: being locked up in l six for their protection, you know. 176 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:43,520 Speaker 1: So that's that's the moment that you're talking about. But 177 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:46,080 Speaker 1: then when I left from this area and went to 178 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:49,679 Speaker 1: the bobby shop and was talking to some Muslims, because 179 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 1: about forty five minutes an hour, so then you know 180 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:54,840 Speaker 1: they're not they're killing the snitches. So the plan is 181 00:11:54,880 --> 00:12:00,280 Speaker 1: for this non violent protest. When you see what is unfolding, 182 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:03,959 Speaker 1: I mean, were you freaking out? I mean because if 183 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 1: it wasn't what you wanted right, And then all of 184 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 1: the brothers told me said, man, you need to saida 185 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:13,440 Speaker 1: you might having a panic attack. One of the Muslim 186 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:16,960 Speaker 1: brothers comings and his over security and he appointed some 187 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:19,120 Speaker 1: of the brothers to take me in the room and 188 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 1: let me realize. He says, look, we got this, just 189 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 1: go relax of few minutes. Man, they're like, keep having 190 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 1: a panic attack. So if that's what you mean by 191 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 1: freaking out, then yes, I said, hold on, go get 192 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 1: some of the brothers. Don't get some of the brothers 193 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:31,719 Speaker 1: own security and tell him out to meet me back 194 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:34,199 Speaker 1: in the Bobby shop. So they met Beckam. The bobby 195 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 1: shop is about fifteen twenty Muslims. They had all different 196 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:40,559 Speaker 1: types of weapons as federer and we was on our 197 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:43,000 Speaker 1: way going toward L six some kind of way. The 198 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 1: people that burn down they murdering. The people in L 199 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 1: six had heard that we was coming and they ran 200 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 1: out on the reclaration yard. And when I came on 201 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:55,320 Speaker 1: myself and other Muslim came into L six. We've seen 202 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 1: people and people was gagging for air, and I told 203 00:12:58,280 --> 00:12:59,839 Speaker 1: people to get him off and get some of these 204 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:01,960 Speaker 1: other guys out. So they took them and took them 205 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 1: to the reparation yard, and some of them actually survived. 206 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 1: Three men survived their beatings, Andrey Stockton was one of them. 207 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 1: You met him in the last episode. The rest of 208 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:15,199 Speaker 1: the death Squad's victims and L six did not survive. 209 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 1: And what happened was people were saying that the majority 210 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:23,480 Speaker 1: of the people that was killed was white. For now 211 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:25,679 Speaker 1: white a sense of fear as if it was a 212 00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 1: racial thing, and we knew it was not racial. It 213 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:31,199 Speaker 1: would never intended to be a right uprising to begin with, 214 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:35,200 Speaker 1: and everything was real jedery and people were feeling uncomfortable. 215 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 1: So I think uprising or happened round three o'clock a 216 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 1: coast to three o'clock, so maybe by eight thirty then 217 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:46,559 Speaker 1: they coming. He got on the bullhun and said, look, 218 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 1: we're getting ready to say our prayers, and we asked 219 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:54,440 Speaker 1: that y'all be hold down the noise, so give us 220 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:57,360 Speaker 1: the respect that we would give y'all. And while we 221 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 1: say our prayers, and after we got who standing, Commons 222 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 1: got on the bullhorn again and he said that if 223 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 1: anybody Kristen, Jews or whatever your religious nomination is, y'all 224 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:13,719 Speaker 1: want to come down here and pray, y'all can come 225 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:16,320 Speaker 1: down here in the same error that we use and pray. 226 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:20,600 Speaker 1: And he also requested that they give the other people 227 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 1: that came down the same respect that they gave the 228 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 1: Muslim being quiet while they're praying. And that was like 229 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 1: the ice and on the cake that broke up a 230 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 1: lot of detention. From that point on, the three main 231 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 1: groups previous enemies, remember, the Sunni Muslims, the Aryan Brotherhood, 232 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:41,080 Speaker 1: and the Black gangster disciples put their differences aside and 233 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 1: formed a common bond with each other against the prison administration. 234 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 1: So as the days are dragging on, what are you thinking? 235 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 1: I didn't think it was going well. I think the 236 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 1: prison authorities with trying they darn best in their mind 237 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 1: for good reasons to use stall characters, trying to get 238 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 1: their officers back without having to give up a whole lot, 239 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 1: and prisoners was not willing to do that because we 240 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 1: understood if there was no hostages, they would have thrown 241 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 1: the place long comic goal and people would have been 242 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 1: murdered and seriously injured, and it was not going to 243 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 1: will Then, as we know by now, things took a 244 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 1: major turn on Thursday the fifteenth. How did things change 245 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 1: after the Landingham was killed? Once the Landingham body was 246 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:40,760 Speaker 1: placed on the recreation yard a kind of speed up 247 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: the process. The prison authorities knocked stot trying to operate 248 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 1: or negotiate in good faith. Eventually negotiator Nikki Schwartz was 249 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 1: brought in. Then three days later the uprising finally ended. 250 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 1: How did you feel when it was over? I mean relieved, 251 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 1: peer could have been over a lot much sona, but 252 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:20,240 Speaker 1: obviously felt relieved. Hassan's relief was short lived. I continue 253 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 1: my conversation with the former m MOM at Lucasville, Sadiq 254 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 1: Abdellah Hassan. So the investigation is led by the Ohio 255 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:31,520 Speaker 1: State Highway Patrol. Talked to me about being interviewed. I 256 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 1: was never interviewed once, not because I refused. They never 257 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 1: even attempt to interview me. They had already said in 258 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 1: a mind that I was going to be used as 259 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 1: a scapegoat. They had already decided to put the point 260 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 1: of thing at me, So I never spoke to them once. 261 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 1: I never refused the speak to them, and they never 262 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 1: made an attempt to speak to me. Hassan says he 263 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 1: was never interviewed by the Ohio State Highway Patrol, so 264 00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:00,080 Speaker 1: his name would not be on that list of interviews 265 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:04,639 Speaker 1: they conducted. I check the index, and he's right. Someone 266 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 1: else's name is also not on that list, Jason Rob, 267 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 1: one of the other so called leaders during the uprising. 268 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 1: Jason Rob's name isn't in here either, right. He said 269 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 1: the same thing with him, so I guess mean him 270 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 1: within the same boat, being too leaders, a sports person 271 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 1: doing the uprising, that they had no intention to come 272 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:27,879 Speaker 1: at the top those they're already decide that they was 273 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:31,400 Speaker 1: going to make of the straight goa. James Ware's name 274 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 1: is also nowhere on that list of interviews. He's another 275 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:38,200 Speaker 1: one of the so called Lucasville Five, the five men 276 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 1: sentenced to death for their alleged crimes in the uprising. 277 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:45,840 Speaker 1: So these three guys who have been sentenced to death 278 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:51,480 Speaker 1: were never interviewed by investigators, So many of these interviews 279 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:55,240 Speaker 1: weren't recorded. Why not record him? Why pick and choose 280 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:59,200 Speaker 1: when to record these interviews? Abductive or someone saying something 281 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:01,680 Speaker 1: that you won't here, then you want to play the 282 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:04,679 Speaker 1: recording and make it seem like you just thought him. 283 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:06,919 Speaker 1: But no, you already had a conversation with them Houra 284 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 1: two hours, two days before, and now you want to 285 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 1: you already know what they're going to say, but you're 286 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 1: not going to play something not knowing what they're going 287 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 1: to say. So you only want to receive the information 288 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:21,199 Speaker 1: that is favorable. By the way, George Skates, maybe the 289 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 1: most front and center spokesperson for the prisoners during the uprising, 290 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 1: also currently on death row, was only interviewed twice by investigators, 291 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:35,439 Speaker 1: and neither one of those interviews were recorded. Is it 292 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:39,639 Speaker 1: just me or does that seem strange? What were you 293 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:43,680 Speaker 1: charged with? I was charged with fifteen charges. I can't 294 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 1: remember all them, but I know I was a charge 295 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:48,879 Speaker 1: with two counts of capital murder, one with regard to 296 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 1: Officer landing him another work regards to end a by 297 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:55,280 Speaker 1: the name of Bruce Harris. He was murdered on the 298 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:58,359 Speaker 1: last day the death of surrender. Did you have anything 299 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 1: to do with Officer of Landingham's No, absolutely not. He 300 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 1: was the officer that used to be in mob block. 301 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:07,959 Speaker 1: He was a nice person. In fact, he was the 302 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 1: most nicest one of all the officers there. Hassan says 303 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 1: as he prepared to go to trial, one of the 304 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:19,480 Speaker 1: biggest issues he faced had to do with his representation. 305 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:23,880 Speaker 1: His two original attorneys, Rick Kerger and Charles Boss basically 306 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 1: told the judge that they could not with what time 307 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 1: and money they were allotted, properly represent Hassan In time, 308 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:34,880 Speaker 1: they were replaced with two other attorneys out of Cincinnati. 309 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 1: In January of nineteen ninety six, after two changes of venue, 310 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:44,680 Speaker 1: Hassan goes on trial in Hamilton County, Ohio. And what 311 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 1: was the makeup of your joury? They loved a white 312 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:50,919 Speaker 1: and one black on my jury, a black gay, and 313 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:53,639 Speaker 1: even the state chatter removed him from my case. But 314 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:56,200 Speaker 1: the judge he seems to do so because he no 315 00:19:56,440 --> 00:20:00,680 Speaker 1: base on the case. Come out of Kentucky. About all 316 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 1: removing blacks from jury, I would end up probably getting 317 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 1: a reversal. Sounds a bit familiar. Hassen's jury was made 318 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:12,639 Speaker 1: up of eleven whites and one black. Keith's jury was 319 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:17,160 Speaker 1: all white. Then there's something else Hassan brings up that 320 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:22,880 Speaker 1: I know I've heard before alleged issues with exculpatory evidence, 321 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:25,440 Speaker 1: and my child to state that that your honor, we're 322 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:29,240 Speaker 1: not aware of any exculpatory information for this particular defendant. 323 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:32,040 Speaker 1: But the judge say, is not about whether you are 324 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 1: aware or not. You have to go into the rector 325 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 1: fives and see if they have any exculpatory information, because 326 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:41,879 Speaker 1: it come out later on than there is. The dates 327 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:45,600 Speaker 1: can end up being dismissed for lack of revealing this 328 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 1: exculpatory information. So we had another preach r hearing maybe 329 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 1: sixty or ninety days later, and my prosecutor saying, we're honor, 330 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 1: we searched the file and there's no exculportory information. What 331 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 1: physical evidence did they have against you? Absolutely not no 332 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 1: physical evidence. So if there's no physical evidence against you, 333 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:26,400 Speaker 1: what did the state have? I continue my conversation with 334 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 1: Saddiq Abdallah Hassan. So if there's no physical evidence against you, 335 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 1: what did the state have? Self serving or in makes 336 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:42,359 Speaker 1: game testimony more than that took themselves, deflected attention from 337 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:45,359 Speaker 1: themselves in place to blame on myself the fact that 338 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:50,200 Speaker 1: I was the spiritual leader of the Muslims and being 339 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:52,639 Speaker 1: the leader I guess h and there my I becomes 340 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:58,399 Speaker 1: my brother keeper. So they relied on the testimony of E. 341 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:04,400 Speaker 1: In the real snargrass all people who got deals, all 342 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:08,960 Speaker 1: people who got deals rights set. He participated that murders, 343 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 1: he kidnapped guards, and a lot of those cases he 344 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:15,159 Speaker 1: was not charged with. After the devil was charged with 345 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:19,120 Speaker 1: the guards murdered, but he turned state and said what 346 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 1: the state wanted him to say. Anthony Lavelle and Roger 347 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:27,639 Speaker 1: Snodgrass reportedly both took plea bargains and were released from 348 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:31,880 Speaker 1: prison many years ago. I've tried finding both men, but 349 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:37,040 Speaker 1: haven't had any luck. Interestingly enough, though, Roger Snodgrass in 350 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:43,960 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen did participate in the Netflix show Captive Anas 351 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:48,520 Speaker 1: and this I gave up information on guys to the authorities. Right, 352 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 1: It makes no difference to me. If you're judging me, 353 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:54,359 Speaker 1: and you're judging me, you judge you, and anybody else 354 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 1: wants to judge me. For a fine man, judge me 355 00:22:56,960 --> 00:23:02,200 Speaker 1: all right, put yourself in my shoes. You know, see 356 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:06,359 Speaker 1: how you handle that situation. I don't think most people 357 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:10,480 Speaker 1: would still have enough mind to be saying. After all 358 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 1: the ship that I've seen and done and been through 359 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:23,440 Speaker 1: in that fucking ride. Yeah, it's I feel man. And 360 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:27,919 Speaker 1: one more thing about Anthony Lavelle. He was allegedly the 361 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:31,120 Speaker 1: leader of the Black Gangster Disciples, one of the three 362 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 1: groups in charge during the uprising. Hassan just said a 363 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:38,080 Speaker 1: minute ago that Lavelle cooperated with the authorities and in 364 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:41,879 Speaker 1: turn got some sort of deal. Well, what I find 365 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,960 Speaker 1: curious is that of the five people sitting on death row, 366 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:50,160 Speaker 1: no one from the Black Gangster Disciples is there. How 367 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 1: did that happen? How is it that they are the 368 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,720 Speaker 1: only ones of the three groups in charge that managed 369 00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 1: to avoid being sent to death row. Could there alleged 370 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:06,360 Speaker 1: participation like Anthony Lavelle's have anything to do with it. 371 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:13,679 Speaker 1: Then there's Kenneth's Law. That's another name you haven't heard before. 372 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:18,119 Speaker 1: He said that myself and James where the one that 373 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 1: actually had the officer murder. I gave James Where the order. 374 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 1: But that's not physical evidence. That's based on hearsay and 375 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 1: the deal they made with Kenneth Law that he must 376 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,960 Speaker 1: testify to the truth of his statement. If he deviate 377 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 1: away from his statement, then they was going to reindice him. 378 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 1: They gave him a polygraph test. He failed a polygraph 379 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:46,120 Speaker 1: test polygraph test saying that he was telling a blatant lie, 380 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:49,640 Speaker 1: but number the mess myself and other was convicted based 381 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 1: on his testimony. Did Kenneth Law end up recanting, Yes, 382 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:57,720 Speaker 1: after the fact, But you know recantation as many case 383 00:24:57,800 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 1: all throughout the United States where people trying to RecA 384 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:03,080 Speaker 1: and the prosecutor with challenge it's saying original statement in 385 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 1: the chimp and the recantation is a lot. But no, 386 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:10,160 Speaker 1: his recantation is not a lot. In an affidavit from 387 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,359 Speaker 1: March ninth, two thousand and referring to the trials of 388 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 1: Hassan and James Ware, Kenneth Law said quote, I was 389 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:21,439 Speaker 1: interviewed several times before both trials and was told what 390 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:25,720 Speaker 1: to say. Kenneth Law, who was convicted of kidnapping officer 391 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:29,879 Speaker 1: of the Landingham and pled guilty to conspiracy to commit 392 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 1: murder in his death, is currently still incarcerated at Northeast 393 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 1: Ohio Correctional Center. His next parole hearing is scheduled for 394 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 1: November of twenty twenty five. The trooper didn't know Field Lanham, 395 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 1: and all they was interested in is putting the blame 396 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 1: at the doorsteps of the leaders of people who was 397 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 1: sportsperson trying to bring about a piece of silver in 398 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 1: the uprising. In addition to Officer of the Landingham's murder, 399 00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 1: Hassan was also charged with Bruce Harris's murder. Bruce Harris 400 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:05,120 Speaker 1: was believed to have been killed on the last day 401 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:09,120 Speaker 1: of the uprising. Hassan says he didn't kill Bruce Harris, 402 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 1: and on that last day during the surrender, there's proof 403 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:19,200 Speaker 1: of it. There's a video showing myself, Nicky Sports, Jason 404 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:23,160 Speaker 1: rob at Laville as some of the Muslim representative came 405 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:27,120 Speaker 1: from Kamoma's, Ohio, actually on the recreation yard. So once 406 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:31,480 Speaker 1: again the state put on pergy testimony. They allow prisoners 407 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,399 Speaker 1: to say that I was president for Bruce Parrish was 408 00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:36,879 Speaker 1: being murdered, but when you look at the video, I 409 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:39,879 Speaker 1: was evection on the yard. So I was acquitted of 410 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:44,960 Speaker 1: that particular charge. Hassan was acquitted of killing Bruce Harris 411 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 1: as well as one count of felonious assault. He was 412 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 1: found guilty and sentenced sixty six to ninety five years 413 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:58,280 Speaker 1: for attempted murder, two kidnappings, felonious assault, and robbery. And 414 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 1: as we already know by now he was given the 415 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:04,080 Speaker 1: death penalty for the murder of officer of a landing him. 416 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:09,879 Speaker 1: I reached out to the two prosecutors in Hassan's original trial, 417 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:16,240 Speaker 1: Gerald Crumpleback and Rick Gibson. If Rick Gibson's name sounds familiar, 418 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,359 Speaker 1: that's because he was also one of the prosecutors in 419 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:24,600 Speaker 1: Jeffrey Wogenstall's case, which we talked about in episode seven. Anyway, 420 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 1: I reached out to Gibson and Crumpleback to see if 421 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 1: they'd be willing to talk with me about Hassan's case, 422 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 1: but neither of them have responded. Today, some twenty seven 423 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 1: years since Hassan was convicted and sent to death row, 424 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:42,480 Speaker 1: his attorneys are still fighting to get him a new trial. 425 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:46,480 Speaker 1: Hassan says he was granted an evidentiary hearing based on 426 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:50,240 Speaker 1: three claims having to do with ineffective assistance of counsel. 427 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:56,680 Speaker 1: I am eight deals with ineffectives of counsel for failing 428 00:27:56,800 --> 00:28:02,000 Speaker 1: to barely investigate my case and call witnesses that could 429 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:05,119 Speaker 1: have testified to my actual innocence or could have challenged 430 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,520 Speaker 1: the state case. The other one, claimed now would have 431 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:13,399 Speaker 1: been innocrctisistence of trial counsel for failing to thirdly or 432 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:18,600 Speaker 1: examine the witnesses that the state called to the scene. 433 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 1: And thirty one deals with innosecti assistance a trial counsel 434 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:28,800 Speaker 1: for failing to investigate my upbringing, childhood for the purpose 435 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:32,800 Speaker 1: of medication. And those are just three of the many 436 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:36,399 Speaker 1: claims Hassan is raising. Depending on the outcome of that 437 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:40,880 Speaker 1: evidentiary hearing, Hassan could be granted a new trial. Until then. 438 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:44,800 Speaker 1: Because Hassan's case is still pending, no execution date has 439 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 1: been set, Unlike Keith, who is sentenced to die on 440 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 1: November sixteenth, twenty twenty three, I decide to circle back 441 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 1: to see if Hassan might be open to answering some 442 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 1: questions I still have about Keith. This time I jumped 443 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:06,040 Speaker 1: right in. Did you see him inside L six or 444 00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 1: the L block during the uprising in those early minutes 445 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:13,000 Speaker 1: and hours of the uprising? Not that I can recall. No. 446 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:19,400 Speaker 1: Lewis Jones testified at Keith's trial something to the effect of, 447 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 1: like they came inside, you know, early on of the 448 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:28,880 Speaker 1: uprising to check on their belongings. They saw that stuff 449 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:31,920 Speaker 1: was going on, he said. Keith asked for permission to 450 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:36,080 Speaker 1: kill the snitches, and then you know if we can kill. 451 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 1: If we kill the snitches, will you let us go. 452 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:44,120 Speaker 1: Does any of that sound familiar to you at all? No, 453 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:46,480 Speaker 1: I wouldn't. I'm looking not around. I'm not gonna say, 454 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 1: don't not tell you. When they start Skinner's Snitches. I 455 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 1: was in the Boxer's shop, welcome to some brothers, and 456 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 1: that's when some people Muslims came and told me that 457 00:29:56,120 --> 00:30:04,560 Speaker 1: they down down into you're putting the niches. Yeah, I 458 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 1: thought the brothers, wok, go go get some of the brothers, 459 00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:08,720 Speaker 1: some of the brothers on security and tell them to 460 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:11,600 Speaker 1: meet me down there. And we would talk for about 461 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,080 Speaker 1: a minute, and we saw walking and get people heard 462 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,400 Speaker 1: we would coming and whoever it was that was the 463 00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:20,520 Speaker 1: Nailed six doing the killing, the death squire. What they 464 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 1: became known about whoever they were, They had exited on 465 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:26,360 Speaker 1: their recreation job, so I didn't get to see who 466 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,080 Speaker 1: you work, So they were already gone by the time 467 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:32,840 Speaker 1: you made it over to L six and direct. So 468 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:35,960 Speaker 1: when you got to L six and you saw the 469 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:40,720 Speaker 1: people that you wanted put away for safe keeping had 470 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:45,720 Speaker 1: been murdered, what did you think one to know? How 471 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:49,280 Speaker 1: did they get in here? Who know them in? Yeah? 472 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 1: And did you hear any names mentioned about who might 473 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 1: have done these killings? Yeah? I hear a name, but 474 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:00,640 Speaker 1: not that I'm trying to conceal it. They think from 475 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,080 Speaker 1: you it would be a hearsay. And I don't have 476 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:06,480 Speaker 1: any courage. I had knowledge only what I hear, right, 477 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 1: you know a lot of people came out and said 478 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:14,040 Speaker 1: Keith was the leader of the death squad. And if 479 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 1: you the imam, you know, was the person who said 480 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,520 Speaker 1: these people need to be put away for safekeeping. Who's 481 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:25,000 Speaker 1: Keith to come in and say, well, no, open the cells, 482 00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:27,480 Speaker 1: I'm going to kill them. It's just I wonder how 483 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,560 Speaker 1: he would have that kind of power, right, Actually, he 484 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:33,760 Speaker 1: wouldn't have their power. Don't awake somebody, I guess we 485 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 1: say have their power or given their power them would 486 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,040 Speaker 1: have had to be done through a Muslim. A mustim 487 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 1: the thunderstood someone's order a Muslim from them all say 488 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:48,560 Speaker 1: forgive them? Are they not moving? Mincrofift and found about 489 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:52,120 Speaker 1: being God and allows them in because there were a 490 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:57,400 Speaker 1: Muslim that would actually step guided about why do you 491 00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:01,560 Speaker 1: let these guys in? This bob? They just opened the 492 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 1: door for me to go. I'm on the range, so 493 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:06,120 Speaker 1: they let the ports. So I'm getting ready to go 494 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:07,960 Speaker 1: back to myself because I've been at two hours and 495 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:11,239 Speaker 1: an half and just like that, our time is up 496 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:14,880 Speaker 1: and Hussan has to go. I have a few more questions, 497 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:18,320 Speaker 1: so we speak one more time. Do you have any 498 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,520 Speaker 1: regrets or is there anything now looking back that you 499 00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:24,880 Speaker 1: wish you had done differently? No, because I did everything 500 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:29,000 Speaker 1: that I possibly could. The problem is not within the 501 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:32,400 Speaker 1: Muslims of the problems within the one. So no, I 502 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:37,000 Speaker 1: don't have any regrets. What would you want to say 503 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:41,720 Speaker 1: to the investigators or to the prosecutors who tried your 504 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:45,360 Speaker 1: case for the state. I mean, there's nothing to stay 505 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:47,560 Speaker 1: with him, because more people already made up their mind 506 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:51,520 Speaker 1: to do something because in many cases, especially our profile cases, 507 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:55,320 Speaker 1: prosecutors are not trying to see suggests. They are more 508 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,680 Speaker 1: and less trying to do something to boost their political career. 509 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:00,840 Speaker 1: And when you look at that, when it comes to 510 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 1: the Lucas uprising on no prosecutors who have become judge 511 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:09,000 Speaker 1: like Daniel Hogan and he's a judge now for Franklin County. 512 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:13,120 Speaker 1: They have put their kids to college, They are paid 513 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:17,560 Speaker 1: up all their mortgages. Those people doesn't have a conscious, 514 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,920 Speaker 1: so there's nothing to really say to them. I mean, 515 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 1: it would be a waste of my breath. Rick Kerger, 516 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:28,960 Speaker 1: one of Hassan's original attorneys who didn't end up trying 517 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:33,360 Speaker 1: his case, was interviewed for D Jones's twenty thirteen documentary 518 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:37,360 Speaker 1: called The Great Incarcerator, and what Rick Kerger said in 519 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:42,840 Speaker 1: it kind of seems to sum it all up. I 520 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:44,960 Speaker 1: don't know what justice is. I mean, God may know 521 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:48,760 Speaker 1: what justice is, but I do know what's fair. Did 522 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:51,920 Speaker 1: we give a fair opportunity for Hassan and the others 523 00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:54,720 Speaker 1: to defend themselves and the answers We didn't. There was 524 00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:56,959 Speaker 1: a huge thumb on the scales of justice. And if 525 00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:00,200 Speaker 1: we can do that to them, then they whoever on 526 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:10,400 Speaker 1: the system, can do it to you and me next 527 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:14,680 Speaker 1: time on the real killer. There's a lot of reasons 528 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:18,120 Speaker 1: for people to be against the death penalty. We take 529 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:21,960 Speaker 1: a hard look at capital punishment in Ohio. You may 530 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:26,840 Speaker 1: be surprised at who's coming together to try and end it. Technically, 531 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:30,279 Speaker 1: you could shoot them or hang them, but I have 532 00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:34,360 Speaker 1: a strange feeling the people of Ohio aren't gonna lie either. 533 00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:45,759 Speaker 1: Please check out at The Real Killer on Instagram for 534 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:50,319 Speaker 1: some never before seen photos and documents. Also, if you're 535 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:54,160 Speaker 1: so inclined, leave us a five star review. Reviews increase 536 00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:57,200 Speaker 1: the odds that other listeners like you will find us. 537 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:06,200 Speaker 1: The Real Killer is a production of AYR Media and iHeartRadio, 538 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:11,480 Speaker 1: hosted by me Leah Rothman. Executive producers Leah Rothman and 539 00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:17,200 Speaker 1: Eliza Rosen for AYR Media. Written by Leah Rothman, Executive 540 00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:24,160 Speaker 1: producer Paulina Williams, Senior associate producer Jill Pasheznik, Coordinators George 541 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:29,240 Speaker 1: Famm and Melina Kryski. Editing and sound design by Cameron Taggy. 542 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:35,160 Speaker 1: Mixed and mastered by Cameron Taggy. Audio engineering by Matt Jacobsen. 543 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:41,160 Speaker 1: Studio engineering by Jay Brannon. Legal counsel for AYR Media, 544 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:46,600 Speaker 1: Gianni Douglas. Executive producer for iHeartRadio Maya Howard