WEBVTT - Thinking Sideways: Baron 52 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:04.600 The Thinking Sideways is not brought to you by vegetarian zombies. Instead, 0:00:04.640 --> 0:00:07.760 it's brought to you by your local animal shelter. So 0:00:08.039 --> 0:00:10.719 you want to get yourself a new furry, feather scaly 0:00:10.840 --> 0:00:14.200 friend that's not necessarily all three in the same package. Uh, Well, 0:00:14.320 --> 0:00:16.919 you go to your local animal shelter, uh instead of 0:00:16.920 --> 0:00:19.200 the pet store and you can have one. They've got 0:00:19.320 --> 0:00:22.000 lots of them cats, dogs, and some of the things too, 0:00:22.120 --> 0:00:25.200 like rabbits and probably gerbils and god knows what else. 0:00:25.280 --> 0:00:27.720 So uh. And you know, if you don't want to 0:00:27.720 --> 0:00:30.360 do that, it's understandable you should because there's lots of 0:00:30.360 --> 0:00:32.120 cats and dogs and need homes. But if you don't 0:00:32.120 --> 0:00:33.680 want to do that, but you still want to help out, 0:00:33.720 --> 0:00:35.760 you know, you can always donate. There's lots of cat 0:00:35.880 --> 0:00:38.400 rescues and dog rescues out there that really need the money, 0:00:38.520 --> 0:00:41.760 really they do. Uh. And also you can volunteer. They 0:00:41.760 --> 0:00:44.640 need volunteers big time. So yeah, do what you can, 0:00:44.960 --> 0:00:54.880 and Phido and Fluffy really appreciate it. It's quickly to arter. 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:11.720 Hey everybody, and welcome again to another episode of Thinking Sideways. 0:01:12.040 --> 0:01:17.440 I am Steve as usual, joined by den Go and 0:01:17.720 --> 0:01:25.800 once again we have a mystery seventies sexually actually continuing 0:01:25.880 --> 0:01:27.880 to present day, though well it is, it is continuing 0:01:27.920 --> 0:01:29.520 to present day. It was actually going to say it's 0:01:29.920 --> 0:01:31.720 a first for us, as we haven't really done a 0:01:31.840 --> 0:01:35.000 Vietnam War mystery before. And actually there's a lot of 0:01:35.000 --> 0:01:38.760 interesting Vietnam War mysteries out there, there are, and I 0:01:38.800 --> 0:01:41.319 don't know why we've avoided it, Probably because the Vietnam 0:01:41.319 --> 0:01:43.080 War is a bit of a third rail, you know, 0:01:43.120 --> 0:01:45.640 it's at that electrified rail for a lot of people, 0:01:45.720 --> 0:01:48.720 even still today. It's similar to doing you know, shows 0:01:48.720 --> 0:01:51.480 about that are circling around nine eleven or you know 0:01:51.520 --> 0:01:53.560 things like that. So I'm going to give the caveat 0:01:53.600 --> 0:01:55.600 in the beginning. Is Devin always love to say, this 0:01:55.640 --> 0:01:59.560 show is not necessarily about the basis and everything that 0:01:59.640 --> 0:02:04.240 happened in the war. It's going to be about our subjects, 0:02:05.440 --> 0:02:09.200 one very specific incident in the war. Similarly, if you 0:02:09.240 --> 0:02:11.280 love the Vietnam War, we're not going to do a 0:02:11.320 --> 0:02:15.320 good job explaining it. No, we don't email us telling 0:02:15.360 --> 0:02:18.840 us that we're bad at history, because we know we 0:02:18.919 --> 0:02:23.520 know really bad for a long long time. I sometimes 0:02:23.520 --> 0:02:24.800 I read how long it is, I'm like that was 0:02:25.120 --> 0:02:28.760 Oh god. Okay, so let's let's jump right into the story. Okay, 0:02:28.840 --> 0:02:31.520 shall we do that? I guess? Yeah? All right, So 0:02:31.520 --> 0:02:38.960 our stories the starts um maybe on the of January three, 0:02:39.200 --> 0:02:42.800 which for people who do know their history, especially around Vietnam, 0:02:43.320 --> 0:02:46.160 we'll know that that is the day that the Paris 0:02:46.240 --> 0:02:51.160 Piece Accords were signed to end the war slash, conflict, slash, 0:02:51.240 --> 0:02:54.080 whatever other thing people called it that was going on 0:02:54.120 --> 0:02:58.600 in Vietnam. Now, of course, the Piece Accords were intended 0:02:58.639 --> 0:03:01.320 to end that conflict. Now, whether it did or not, 0:03:01.520 --> 0:03:03.560 or how that went about, that's a whole another ball 0:03:03.560 --> 0:03:08.760 of wax. Yeah, there is. But I say that our 0:03:08.800 --> 0:03:11.920 story might start on that day, but we're not really 0:03:12.040 --> 0:03:15.200 positive for reasons that will come out later on. Our 0:03:15.240 --> 0:03:21.280 story mainly those starts on the fourth of February seventy three. 0:03:21.600 --> 0:03:24.760 That is when a US Air Force e C forty seven, 0:03:24.960 --> 0:03:30.079 operating under the call signed Baron fifty two, Yeah, took 0:03:30.120 --> 0:03:34.280 off from Uban, Thailand at eleven o'clock at night. The 0:03:34.280 --> 0:03:37.480 plane and crew went about their mission, and you know, 0:03:37.600 --> 0:03:41.000 all was well for them for a little while, and 0:03:41.040 --> 0:03:44.960 then they failed to make their required radio contact at 0:03:45.240 --> 0:03:48.280 two a m. At which point in search and rescue 0:03:48.400 --> 0:03:52.240 effort was launched, but it would be three days before 0:03:52.240 --> 0:03:55.520 the wreckage would be found crashed into the mountain side 0:03:55.520 --> 0:03:59.680 in the Jungles of Laos. The plane, when it was 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:03.120 found owned, was upside down, its wings were shorn off, 0:04:03.680 --> 0:04:06.440 the rear portion of the plane was pretty destroyed because 0:04:06.600 --> 0:04:09.840 it had it been on fire. Yeah, yeah, they pretty 0:04:09.960 --> 0:04:13.160 large fire. Problem of course is that at this time 0:04:13.160 --> 0:04:16.440 in Laos, in that area, this is part of the 0:04:17.040 --> 0:04:20.520 human trail, so that even though the hostilities are not 0:04:20.560 --> 0:04:24.640 supposed to be happening, there's still enemy forces around. You're 0:04:24.640 --> 0:04:31.520 not talking just North Vietnamese and South Vietnamese communists, and yeah, everybody, 0:04:31.520 --> 0:04:34.919 everybody's around, and nobody likes the Americans, which big shocker 0:04:35.040 --> 0:04:38.960 happens all the time in situations like this, So search 0:04:39.000 --> 0:04:42.880 and rescue efforts. They launch a mission on the ninth 0:04:42.880 --> 0:04:46.760 of February and four men repel out of a helicopter 0:04:46.920 --> 0:04:51.000 to the ground to inspect the craft, and their plan 0:04:51.120 --> 0:04:55.440 is to confirm its identity and then identify and if possible, 0:04:55.880 --> 0:04:58.719 recover the bodies of the crew. At the same time, 0:04:58.760 --> 0:05:02.719 they're also task with destroying any sense of equipment that 0:05:02.760 --> 0:05:06.640 they might find has survived the crash, because this particular plane, 0:05:07.040 --> 0:05:10.960 as we'll talk about, has some very um some covert 0:05:11.120 --> 0:05:14.320 radio sniffing technology on it, which was very important to 0:05:14.440 --> 0:05:18.760 the U. S. Military. But these four men they get 0:05:18.800 --> 0:05:23.159 down there and they are able to They're only able 0:05:23.200 --> 0:05:25.800 to spend forty minutes total at the site. That in 0:05:25.880 --> 0:05:29.440 turn includes the time repelling out of and repelling back 0:05:29.520 --> 0:05:31.920 up into the helicopter, so they're not on the ground 0:05:32.080 --> 0:05:36.320 but for maybe twenty or thirty minutes total. They're looking 0:05:36.360 --> 0:05:39.839 around and they can get into the cockpit of the plane. 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:42.120 Did they get in or they just look in the windows, 0:05:42.200 --> 0:05:44.200 because I've heard from some accounts it looks like they 0:05:44.240 --> 0:05:47.880 just looked in they were It sounds to me they 0:05:47.880 --> 0:05:51.760 were able to get a short distance into it based 0:05:51.800 --> 0:05:53.520 on one of the bodies that they found that would 0:05:53.520 --> 0:05:56.560 have been partially behind the partition. So I think they 0:05:56.640 --> 0:05:59.120 did go in, now not very far, you know, probably 0:05:59.160 --> 0:06:03.160 not farther than the pilot's chair distance into the cab. 0:06:02.720 --> 0:06:08.200 It was. The wreck was very unstable, and that will 0:06:08.240 --> 0:06:10.920 play a part in the way they go about things. 0:06:11.040 --> 0:06:14.040 But when they get in there, they're able to identify 0:06:14.160 --> 0:06:19.080 the remains of four individuals. There's Captain George Spitz, he's 0:06:19.120 --> 0:06:23.560 the pilot, their second lieutenant several prim he was a 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:27.599 co pilot. Captain Arthur Bollinger was the navigator. And then 0:06:27.680 --> 0:06:30.400 outside of the plane they also found the body of 0:06:30.640 --> 0:06:35.880 First Lieutenant Robert Bernard, and he was the third part Bernhard, 0:06:36.040 --> 0:06:39.000 thank you, my bad. What they didn't find, though, and 0:06:39.040 --> 0:06:41.760 this is important to our story, is that they did 0:06:41.800 --> 0:06:45.760 not find the other four members of the crew, which 0:06:45.800 --> 0:06:49.640 again that's what's going on here, because this plane had 0:06:49.760 --> 0:06:52.560 eight people on board, four in the front who were 0:06:52.600 --> 0:06:55.400 flying it, and four in the rear who were running 0:06:55.440 --> 0:07:01.360 the radio equipment. Well, the of the sorry to interrupt, 0:07:01.360 --> 0:07:03.720 there wasn't a back of the plane anymore, right, Well, 0:07:03.760 --> 0:07:06.359 there was to a degree. There was, to a degree, 0:07:06.360 --> 0:07:08.839 it wasn't fully intact because of the fire and the crashes. 0:07:09.400 --> 0:07:11.880 The tail had been ripped off, Like this wreck was 0:07:12.240 --> 0:07:18.200 really really unstable. Yeah, yeah, especially if they come down 0:07:18.320 --> 0:07:21.080 very hard. So what the mystery here is, of course, 0:07:21.160 --> 0:07:24.240 is that if they didn't see the men the bodies 0:07:24.280 --> 0:07:27.080 of the men at the back of the plane, did 0:07:27.120 --> 0:07:32.600 they actually die in the plane the crash, or were 0:07:32.680 --> 0:07:36.320 they actually able to bail out before the plane went down, 0:07:36.400 --> 0:07:40.800 and if so, what then happened to them? Uh? And 0:07:40.840 --> 0:07:44.040 there there's a lot of events that happened after the 0:07:44.520 --> 0:07:47.680 after the plane initially disappears from radio contact that makes 0:07:47.680 --> 0:07:50.480 some people think that maybe they did get out. And 0:07:50.560 --> 0:07:54.360 we'll walk through all of that, but let's stop for 0:07:54.400 --> 0:07:57.480 a second and let's roll back to the very beginning 0:07:57.480 --> 0:07:59.920 of the story, because that's the general synopsis of why 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:04.680 this is a mystery. Okay, Sis, you know, I'm a 0:08:04.720 --> 0:08:07.680 long winded guy. According to the Internet. Didn't your mom 0:08:07.720 --> 0:08:10.360 teach you to be the sinct? Actually I met your mom. 0:08:10.400 --> 0:08:11.840 Never mind, I was about to say, if you really 0:08:11.840 --> 0:08:13.520 want me to answer this question, because I could go 0:08:13.520 --> 0:08:18.559 on for a while. When Baron fifty two lifted off, 0:08:19.280 --> 0:08:22.960 it was only eight days after the Paris Peace Accords 0:08:23.200 --> 0:08:28.960 had officially gone into effect, but the US military, being 0:08:29.040 --> 0:08:34.960 not the most trusting organization out there, didn't actually stop 0:08:35.000 --> 0:08:41.920 its covert activities. Yeah. Yeah, well, and and officially, I 0:08:42.559 --> 0:08:46.240 have to guess or unofficially, I'm sure that they're like, well, listen, 0:08:46.320 --> 0:08:47.880 you know, we need to keep an eye on the 0:08:48.400 --> 0:08:52.120 Communist People's Party of Vietnam and and find out what's 0:08:52.160 --> 0:08:55.880 going on. Just in case they're, you know, gonna pull 0:08:55.920 --> 0:08:58.600 a fast one on us and break the rules. That's 0:08:58.840 --> 0:09:01.559 usually happens with C So it was makes a lot 0:09:01.600 --> 0:09:04.319 of sense for contact. Remember it's eight days. I mean 0:09:04.320 --> 0:09:07.079 when bearfits two left, it was only eight days. It 0:09:07.120 --> 0:09:09.720 wasn't as if this was the first time a ceasefire 0:09:09.800 --> 0:09:13.320 had been called and both sides had broken them before. 0:09:13.640 --> 0:09:17.760 So things like this might be why those those things 0:09:17.800 --> 0:09:19.880 got broken in the past. But if you want to 0:09:19.920 --> 0:09:21.480 kind of kind of keep it, see if they're actually 0:09:21.520 --> 0:09:23.280 abiding by it or not before you pull all your 0:09:23.280 --> 0:09:27.640 troops out. Yeah. Yeah, so Baron fifty two itself, though, 0:09:27.679 --> 0:09:31.599 Bear fifty two is a modified C forty seven aircraft, 0:09:32.080 --> 0:09:35.920 and people who listen to this show regularly may actually 0:09:36.000 --> 0:09:40.959 remember that plane from such great hits as Skytrain. Wait 0:09:41.000 --> 0:09:47.719 a minute, train, skytrain, I did say, skytrain. Yeah, yeah, 0:09:47.840 --> 0:09:51.440 modified d C three great great great planes. Yeah, except 0:09:51.480 --> 0:09:53.720 when they crash. Yeah. Well, And for people who don't 0:09:53.960 --> 0:09:57.240 who may not remember that great hit, like Joe said, 0:09:57.320 --> 0:09:59.520 it's a it's a d C three, it's it's a 0:09:59.559 --> 0:10:03.439 two engine prop plane. It was. It usually was, or 0:10:03.440 --> 0:10:05.079 at least in the beginning, was meant to be hauled 0:10:05.320 --> 0:10:08.439 hauling cargo, but then they started using it at times 0:10:08.480 --> 0:10:13.400 to haul troops. This particular plane though, it is called 0:10:13.440 --> 0:10:16.960 an EC forty seven because the back end of it 0:10:17.000 --> 0:10:20.959 is crammed full of electronics equipment. So I mean that's 0:10:21.040 --> 0:10:23.720 the the simple version of what the E stands for. 0:10:24.360 --> 0:10:29.360 And it had four radio stations that each had individual 0:10:29.440 --> 0:10:34.560 man operating said radio to be listening in on whoever 0:10:34.600 --> 0:10:37.960 it was that they were following from the sky. Yeah, 0:10:37.960 --> 0:10:39.560 I was. Actually it was like they had a lot 0:10:39.559 --> 0:10:41.720 of rd F units in it, and so they could actually, 0:10:41.760 --> 0:10:44.560 like you were cruising along anyway, they could get a 0:10:44.600 --> 0:10:46.920 fix on somebody, get a bearing, and then just cruise 0:10:46.920 --> 0:10:48.880 about a hundred miles down to get another fix and 0:10:48.920 --> 0:10:52.360 then triangulate, and that's where the bombers go. You know. 0:10:52.520 --> 0:10:56.120 It's it's like pretty clever. Well, And in this particular plane, 0:10:56.160 --> 0:10:58.800 their job was on this particular night was they were 0:10:59.120 --> 0:11:03.960 posedly because of munitions fire that they had been taking 0:11:03.960 --> 0:11:07.160 anti aircraft fire they've been taking these planes that started 0:11:07.200 --> 0:11:10.040 flying at about ten thousand feet. But they would also 0:11:10.160 --> 0:11:13.240 then go over the border, you know, head to Louse 0:11:13.320 --> 0:11:17.400 and the border of Vietnam, and they were tracking a 0:11:17.400 --> 0:11:20.840 convoy of tanks, so they were listening to them to 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:23.200 try and figure out how far they were actually going 0:11:23.280 --> 0:11:26.080 and were they just maneuvering around or were they actually 0:11:26.200 --> 0:11:30.720 haul and tail heading south to continue the campaigns. That 0:11:30.800 --> 0:11:34.920 was their particular mission on this particular night. Now, the 0:11:35.280 --> 0:11:39.240 plane was, as I said, had eight, was staffed by 0:11:39.280 --> 0:11:43.440 eight people. So the men in the or the men 0:11:43.440 --> 0:11:45.920 in the rear, which they often would get called the 0:11:45.960 --> 0:11:48.640 rear enders, which is just an odd way to put it, 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:51.880 but it makes sense. They were all part of the 0:11:52.120 --> 0:11:59.720 security squadron. Off the tongue. I've never I don't remember 0:11:59.720 --> 0:12:02.520 ever seeing military numbers that were more than three digits. 0:12:02.960 --> 0:12:05.400 Shocked to see that. You never heard of the fighting 0:12:05.440 --> 0:12:14.880 sixty Well, I must not watch enough movies. Um. The 0:12:15.200 --> 0:12:19.040 guys that were in the front of the plane, they 0:12:19.080 --> 0:12:23.520 were part of the three hundred sixty one Tactical Electronic 0:12:23.640 --> 0:12:29.960 Warfare Squadron. I remember them. Yeah, basically a little more okay, 0:12:30.000 --> 0:12:32.800 but basically, like I said before, the division is four 0:12:32.840 --> 0:12:35.040 men in the back radio operators, four men in the 0:12:35.040 --> 0:12:40.880 front flying, the navigating. The men who are operating the 0:12:41.080 --> 0:12:46.720 surveillance equipment on this flight are Sergeant Todd Melton, Sergeant 0:12:46.960 --> 0:12:53.640 Joseph Mattajov, Sergeant Peter Cressman, and Sergeant Dale Brandenburg that 0:12:53.679 --> 0:12:56.839 particular night, Like I said, they were supposed to be 0:12:57.120 --> 0:13:00.800 following a convoy of tanks, that we're traveling along the 0:13:01.040 --> 0:13:05.400 human trail. And just I realized when I started doing 0:13:05.400 --> 0:13:07.199 the research for this, so you guys know, I'm going 0:13:07.200 --> 0:13:10.000 to Vietnam next year, right, So I started reading about 0:13:10.080 --> 0:13:12.439 Vietnam and one of the things I discovered is when 0:13:12.440 --> 0:13:14.320 it comes to geography, this happens all the time on 0:13:14.360 --> 0:13:17.040 this show. I'm an idiot. Turns out what I know 0:13:17.040 --> 0:13:20.000 about Vietnam I learned from Good Morning Vietnam. Yeah, I 0:13:20.000 --> 0:13:23.320 think we don't learn geography very well in America because 0:13:23.600 --> 0:13:25.560 I had it in my head that the Ho Chi 0:13:25.679 --> 0:13:30.720 Minh Trail was an actual road and it's no, it 0:13:30.800 --> 0:13:34.640 was like this this mile, yeah, this mini mile wide 0:13:34.720 --> 0:13:38.560 swap that people would move through, and it jumped to 0:13:38.600 --> 0:13:43.439 the border of not from Vietnam to Louse and eventually 0:13:43.480 --> 0:13:47.200 into Cambodia. Like I just always in my head thought 0:13:47.280 --> 0:13:50.560 it was, you know, like the main interstate or something stupid, 0:13:51.120 --> 0:13:55.200 which makes no sense, but that's what It would have 0:13:55.200 --> 0:13:59.520 been quite easy to interdict all that stuff. In retrospect, 0:13:59.640 --> 0:14:02.520 i'd be like this, But for anybody else who might 0:14:02.559 --> 0:14:04.600 have been under that misconception, I just wanted to be 0:14:04.640 --> 0:14:07.840 here to help cleared up so you don't fail from 0:14:07.880 --> 0:14:13.760 my foolishness. Yeah, jeez, guys, yeah, together, I knew all 0:14:13.800 --> 0:14:18.480 of that. Okay, good, very good with de Vietnam Vet, 0:14:18.559 --> 0:14:21.800 you know, he knows this stuff. It's true. By the way, 0:14:21.840 --> 0:14:23.800 it should also be said about the Hotiban Trail is 0:14:23.840 --> 0:14:27.160 an area of northeast Laos that was extremely rugged. In fact, 0:14:27.200 --> 0:14:29.360 hardly anybody lived. There's another reason it made a great 0:14:29.400 --> 0:14:32.440 smuggling sort of thing because there were no villagers that 0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:34.760 could impour them on your movements or anything like that. 0:14:34.840 --> 0:14:37.680 It's so rugged, some mountainous that really you couldn't have 0:14:37.720 --> 0:14:40.040 a usable farm or anything like that up there, So 0:14:40.360 --> 0:14:42.120 really nobody lived up there. That's why it was full 0:14:42.200 --> 0:14:45.760 of fighters and guerrillas who were on both sides of 0:14:45.800 --> 0:14:48.680 the campaign, because yeah, it was just a great place 0:14:48.720 --> 0:14:51.920 to hide. Yeah, it's the way that communications were set 0:14:52.000 --> 0:14:56.040 up for Barren fifty two. Yeah, because after you know, 0:14:56.080 --> 0:14:59.200 of course they're flying up and down, they're following, Yeah, 0:14:59.240 --> 0:15:02.800 they're following this this train of tanks on the Hoteman Trail. 0:15:03.280 --> 0:15:07.360 But part of their their protocol was that they had 0:15:07.400 --> 0:15:11.680 to on the radio communicate with command every thirty minutes, 0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:13.920 and that was done on the hour in the half hour, 0:15:15.160 --> 0:15:19.320 and they were doing that as normal. At about one 0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:23.360 thirty in the morning, they called in and reported to Moonbeam, 0:15:23.360 --> 0:15:26.040 which was the name of the air command control center 0:15:26.080 --> 0:15:29.240 that they were reporting to, which was another airplane, which 0:15:29.280 --> 0:15:33.240 was another airplane that they had been fired upon, but 0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:37.560 they hadn't been hit. They then also reported at one 0:15:37.760 --> 0:15:41.600 forty that they again had been fired at, but again 0:15:41.760 --> 0:15:44.360 had not been hit. And this time when they were 0:15:44.400 --> 0:15:48.480 fired at, if I remember correctly, it was actually radar 0:15:48.640 --> 0:15:52.040 controlled anti aircraft guns that were shooting at them. So 0:15:52.040 --> 0:15:55.640 it wasn't some bozo on a gun just firing These 0:15:55.720 --> 0:15:59.440 were you know, yeah, yeah, they're much more accurate, or 0:15:59.560 --> 0:16:04.720 can be more accurate. Um. So at this point, everything 0:16:04.840 --> 0:16:07.760 is fine, They're over the Ochman Trail, they haven't been hit. 0:16:08.280 --> 0:16:12.040 And then two o'clock comes along and BEARN fifty two 0:16:12.160 --> 0:16:17.080 does not make its scheduled call. What happened? Well, as 0:16:17.120 --> 0:16:21.440 we know, they crashed. Joe. Oh yeah, okay, sorry, I 0:16:21.440 --> 0:16:24.280 forget so fast it's okay, it's all right. It's it's 0:16:24.280 --> 0:16:26.920 hot in here today. He's having that effect. I mean, 0:16:26.920 --> 0:16:28.880 the sweat is dripping off of me and it's disgusting, 0:16:28.880 --> 0:16:33.160 and I apologize it is I'm shiny um. So so 0:16:33.360 --> 0:16:37.600 very quickly, search and rescue efforts are launched and the 0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:40.760 other aircraft that are in the area begin to look 0:16:40.840 --> 0:16:44.680 for Barren fifty two, and I'm actually though they should 0:16:44.720 --> 0:16:47.880 have they I'm surprised they didn't see him, because if 0:16:47.920 --> 0:16:50.360 that plane burned as hot as they say it did, 0:16:50.440 --> 0:16:53.400 it should have been a pretty bright spot in the 0:16:53.520 --> 0:16:59.480 jungle to see. But regardless, nobody found Barren fifty two 0:16:59.560 --> 0:17:02.720 on that first night. Yeah, well it's a lot of 0:17:02.760 --> 0:17:05.800 area too, so I mean, I'm sure they didn't. You know, 0:17:06.119 --> 0:17:10.040 it is sure that that is a very good point, 0:17:10.359 --> 0:17:14.560 but yeah, I don't know. You can usually see big fires. 0:17:14.600 --> 0:17:16.679 I mean again, I'm not you know, since I actually 0:17:16.720 --> 0:17:20.920 I am not familiar with Vietnam at all, really rugged 0:17:20.960 --> 0:17:23.240 and mountainous, so that they're in a little valley and 0:17:23.240 --> 0:17:28.000 there's a little hill or mountain between you train that 0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:30.639 goes up in that and I don't know if it 0:17:30.720 --> 0:17:32.800 was a clear night or not. You know, because if 0:17:32.800 --> 0:17:34.440 it was a clear knight, you would expect you could 0:17:34.480 --> 0:17:37.640 see a column of smoke, you would think, But if 0:17:37.680 --> 0:17:39.960 it wasn't. If it was and they went down to 0:17:40.040 --> 0:17:42.520 two a m. So you wouldn't really see smoke at 0:17:42.560 --> 0:17:44.400 that time in the morning. If it was, if there 0:17:44.440 --> 0:17:46.720 was a moon out, you probably Oh, yeah, I guess, okay, 0:17:46.800 --> 0:17:49.359 But anyway, the point of the matter is they didn't 0:17:49.359 --> 0:17:52.000 see them. But it's weird. But it's weird that maybe 0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:56.840 not the same night though, another surveillance craft which was 0:17:56.960 --> 0:18:01.760 flying over the South China Sea, so this is directly 0:18:01.840 --> 0:18:05.160 to the east's couple hundred miles because it's out over 0:18:05.240 --> 0:18:10.680 open water. Um, this plane picks up a radio communication 0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:14.960 that seemed to point to the fact that the men 0:18:15.040 --> 0:18:17.080 in the back of the plane, that the crew in 0:18:17.080 --> 0:18:20.879 the rear had actually been able to bail out or 0:18:20.920 --> 0:18:23.560 get out of the plane, but as soon as they 0:18:23.600 --> 0:18:26.800 hit the ground almost they were captured by the Vietnamese. 0:18:27.359 --> 0:18:30.479 Now these are these are coded communications. Yeah, and by 0:18:30.520 --> 0:18:32.960 the way, do you know what time that message was received? 0:18:33.400 --> 0:18:35.119 I will be honest, they do not. In here is 0:18:35.160 --> 0:18:37.840 why Joe, is that I have seen it reported as 0:18:37.920 --> 0:18:42.520 anything from to thirty in the morning to five o'clock 0:18:42.520 --> 0:18:45.000 in the morning to eight o'clock in the morning. I 0:18:45.080 --> 0:18:49.399 have seen it reported all over and I I've found 0:18:49.400 --> 0:18:51.560 a bunch of you know, government reports and documents and 0:18:51.600 --> 0:18:56.000 stuff like that, and none of them actually said the 0:18:56.200 --> 0:19:00.640 freaking time on them. Frustrating. Yeah, so even in terry time, 0:19:02.680 --> 0:19:08.600 even in military time, sid stuff, I don't know. I 0:19:08.640 --> 0:19:11.359 have no idea what time it was. No the time 0:19:11.440 --> 0:19:15.360 is reported all over. I'm I'm willing to go with 0:19:15.560 --> 0:19:17.800 you know, let's just say five o'clock, because that would 0:19:17.880 --> 0:19:20.840 make sense for enough time to have transpired for men 0:19:20.920 --> 0:19:23.200 to have bailed out of a plane and then been 0:19:23.320 --> 0:19:26.879 captured and then somebody making a radio communic a the 0:19:27.040 --> 0:19:30.600 I mean, for me, the real question is, right, it's 0:19:30.600 --> 0:19:34.199 never been reported that it was like midnight, right, it 0:19:34.240 --> 0:19:37.760 wasn't before this crash happened. It's always, even if it's 0:19:37.800 --> 0:19:41.119 just even a half hour after, it's always after the 0:19:41.160 --> 0:19:43.760 crash happened. And that I think is the important part. 0:19:43.840 --> 0:19:47.800 Not necessarily so much, really important point would be great 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:49.840 to be able to say, yeah, okay, reasonably there was 0:19:49.880 --> 0:19:51.879 that amount of time, but realistically, as long as it 0:19:51.920 --> 0:19:54.439 happened afterwards, we can give credence to it, so a 0:19:54.440 --> 0:19:56.600 little bit. That's a good point. And so, like I said, 0:19:56.640 --> 0:20:01.560 this is these are coded communications from the Vietnamese army. 0:20:01.760 --> 0:20:05.320 So what we've got is we've got American men who 0:20:05.440 --> 0:20:10.840 are translating a coded message in another language. So and 0:20:11.119 --> 0:20:14.119 they're picking it up while in an airplane. So that well, 0:20:14.160 --> 0:20:16.800 I'm saying this because that means that the communication isn't 0:20:16.840 --> 0:20:22.120 always the clearest reception. And the guy who first met 0:20:22.200 --> 0:20:25.119 took this, who heard it, he jotted it down and 0:20:25.119 --> 0:20:27.840 wrote it down. It was then recorded, and it was 0:20:27.880 --> 0:20:31.280 also recorded onto tape. That tape was then brought back 0:20:31.320 --> 0:20:34.680 to some command center I presume, where it was again 0:20:34.960 --> 0:20:40.720 listened to and a second person was able to uh 0:20:40.920 --> 0:20:44.399 code it or decode it. And what happens here is 0:20:44.440 --> 0:20:51.880 we get two different versions of the message. So here's 0:20:52.560 --> 0:20:55.399 well the translations, and you know, there's there's a lot 0:20:55.400 --> 0:20:56.879 of stuff. We'll talk about that a minute, but let 0:20:56.880 --> 0:21:00.240 me give you the actual messages. The first versions as 0:21:00.640 --> 0:21:04.600 Group to seventeen is holding four pilots captive and the 0:21:04.640 --> 0:21:08.200 group is requesting orders concerning what to do with them. 0:21:08.240 --> 0:21:13.800 The second translator comes up with presently Group to ten 0:21:14.400 --> 0:21:16.560 or sometimes you'll see it said group to ten B. 0:21:17.160 --> 0:21:21.720 But presently group to ten has four pirates. They are 0:21:21.800 --> 0:21:27.520 going there's a gap from four toe that is the 0:21:28.080 --> 0:21:32.440 word to not the number two so and and that's 0:21:32.440 --> 0:21:35.080 where it exists. Now, the problem with this, this log 0:21:35.240 --> 0:21:38.800 or this radio capture is what the military would do 0:21:39.080 --> 0:21:40.719 is they would have the second guy go through it 0:21:40.800 --> 0:21:44.119 and confirm it or correct it, and then they would 0:21:44.200 --> 0:21:47.040 send the tape back onto another plane to be recorded 0:21:47.160 --> 0:21:51.720 over again. So it does not exist anymore. But historically 0:21:51.880 --> 0:21:55.359 more credence is given to a second translation in a 0:21:55.440 --> 0:21:58.119 situation like this than a first translation. Is that correct, 0:21:58.119 --> 0:22:02.480 you would think, But I'm just wondering. I'm trying to 0:22:02.480 --> 0:22:04.560 think of the politically correct way to say this. There's 0:22:04.600 --> 0:22:07.960 a lot of fighting and debate over which one is 0:22:08.000 --> 0:22:11.600 correct right in this particular instance. But I just didn't 0:22:11.600 --> 0:22:13.480 know if there was like a historic record of I'm 0:22:13.480 --> 0:22:16.640 sure this happened all the time, right that the translation, 0:22:16.880 --> 0:22:20.760 and so I just didn't know if the general consensus 0:22:20.880 --> 0:22:23.160 was we're going with what the second guy who's not 0:22:23.240 --> 0:22:26.840 in an airplane in a stressful situation says, or okay, 0:22:26.840 --> 0:22:30.240 So officially, the Air Force logs go with what the 0:22:30.280 --> 0:22:32.720 second guys said. Okay, because the second guy I actually 0:22:32.760 --> 0:22:35.760 did get a chance to listen to it more than once, right, yes, yeah, yeah, 0:22:36.080 --> 0:22:38.320 I mean the first guy is doing it on the 0:22:38.320 --> 0:22:42.400 flyded so he's just trying to do it as quick 0:22:42.440 --> 0:22:48.240 as in an airplane and could get shot at any second. Yes, yes, exactly. Okay, 0:22:48.320 --> 0:22:50.280 so but that's I mean, I'm just trying to give 0:22:50.320 --> 0:22:53.879 historic context to which one generally would be given more. 0:22:54.040 --> 0:22:56.399 I believe the second one. As we said, so okay, 0:22:56.480 --> 0:23:00.320 now as we know the plane it's wouldn't actually be 0:23:00.400 --> 0:23:05.080 found until the seventh of February, and then, like we 0:23:05.119 --> 0:23:08.359 talked about before, that wreckage wouldn't be inspected until two 0:23:08.440 --> 0:23:11.960 days later, which was the ninth of February. And the 0:23:12.000 --> 0:23:14.960 search and rescue team who were who repelled out of 0:23:14.960 --> 0:23:18.119 the Jolly Green Giant said that they couldn't you're laughing, 0:23:18.119 --> 0:23:20.920 but that's what they called those big giant green helicopters. 0:23:21.200 --> 0:23:25.399 I love that. But they said that they didn't go 0:23:25.640 --> 0:23:30.920 into the fuselage of the plane because they were worried 0:23:30.960 --> 0:23:34.719 that it wasn't stable enough, and they were also kind 0:23:34.720 --> 0:23:37.520 of worried about booby traps that too. They had also 0:23:37.600 --> 0:23:41.280 considered putting a rope around it and having the helicopter 0:23:41.480 --> 0:23:44.080 lifted up to try and flip it over, but they 0:23:44.200 --> 0:23:47.560 didn't believe that structurally it would stand that and it 0:23:47.560 --> 0:23:50.040 would probably just crumble and be a waste of time. 0:23:50.800 --> 0:23:54.080 So they couldn't do a whole lot. And part of 0:23:54.119 --> 0:23:57.639 the reason that it was so unstable is when Baron 0:23:57.720 --> 0:24:00.320 fifty two went down, it had about five was a 0:24:00.400 --> 0:24:06.360 fuel on board. That's a lot of fuel to burn that. 0:24:06.400 --> 0:24:09.159