1
00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:04,600
Speaker 1: The Thinking Sideways is not brought to you by vegetarian zombies. Instead,

2
00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:07,760
Speaker 1: it's brought to you by your local animal shelter. So

3
00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:10,719
Speaker 1: you want to get yourself a new furry, feather scaly

4
00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:14,200
Speaker 1: friend that's not necessarily all three in the same package. Uh, Well,

5
00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:16,919
Speaker 1: you go to your local animal shelter, uh instead of

6
00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:19,200
Speaker 1: the pet store and you can have one. They've got

7
00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:22,000
Speaker 1: lots of them cats, dogs, and some of the things too,

8
00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:25,200
Speaker 1: like rabbits and probably gerbils and god knows what else.

9
00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:27,720
Speaker 1: So uh. And you know, if you don't want to

10
00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:30,360
Speaker 1: do that, it's understandable you should because there's lots of

11
00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:32,120
Speaker 1: cats and dogs and need homes. But if you don't

12
00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:33,680
Speaker 1: want to do that, but you still want to help out,

13
00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:35,760
Speaker 1: you know, you can always donate. There's lots of cat

14
00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:38,400
Speaker 1: rescues and dog rescues out there that really need the money,

15
00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:41,760
Speaker 1: really they do. Uh. And also you can volunteer. They

16
00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:44,640
Speaker 1: need volunteers big time. So yeah, do what you can,

17
00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:54,880
Speaker 1: and Phido and Fluffy really appreciate it. It's quickly to arter.

18
00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:11,720
Speaker 1: Hey everybody, and welcome again to another episode of Thinking Sideways.

19
00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:17,440
Speaker 1: I am Steve as usual, joined by den Go and

20
00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:25,800
Speaker 1: once again we have a mystery seventies sexually actually continuing

21
00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:27,880
Speaker 1: to present day, though well it is, it is continuing

22
00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:29,520
Speaker 1: to present day. It was actually going to say it's

23
00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:31,720
Speaker 1: a first for us, as we haven't really done a

24
00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:35,000
Speaker 1: Vietnam War mystery before. And actually there's a lot of

25
00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:38,760
Speaker 1: interesting Vietnam War mysteries out there, there are, and I

26
00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:41,319
Speaker 1: don't know why we've avoided it, Probably because the Vietnam

27
00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:43,080
Speaker 1: War is a bit of a third rail, you know,

28
00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:45,640
Speaker 1: it's at that electrified rail for a lot of people,

29
00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:48,720
Speaker 1: even still today. It's similar to doing you know, shows

30
00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:51,480
Speaker 1: about that are circling around nine eleven or you know

31
00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:53,560
Speaker 1: things like that. So I'm going to give the caveat

32
00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:55,600
Speaker 1: in the beginning. Is Devin always love to say, this

33
00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:59,560
Speaker 1: show is not necessarily about the basis and everything that

34
00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:04,240
Speaker 1: happened in the war. It's going to be about our subjects,

35
00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:09,200
Speaker 1: one very specific incident in the war. Similarly, if you

36
00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:11,280
Speaker 1: love the Vietnam War, we're not going to do a

37
00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:15,320
Speaker 1: good job explaining it. No, we don't email us telling

38
00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:18,840
Speaker 1: us that we're bad at history, because we know we

39
00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:23,520
Speaker 1: know really bad for a long long time. I sometimes

40
00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:24,800
Speaker 1: I read how long it is, I'm like that was

41
00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:28,760
Speaker 1: Oh god. Okay, so let's let's jump right into the story. Okay,

42
00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:31,520
Speaker 1: shall we do that? I guess? Yeah? All right, So

43
00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:38,960
Speaker 1: our stories the starts um maybe on the of January three,

44
00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:42,800
Speaker 1: which for people who do know their history, especially around Vietnam,

45
00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:46,160
Speaker 1: we'll know that that is the day that the Paris

46
00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:51,160
Speaker 1: Piece Accords were signed to end the war slash, conflict, slash,

47
00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:54,080
Speaker 1: whatever other thing people called it that was going on

48
00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:58,600
Speaker 1: in Vietnam. Now, of course, the Piece Accords were intended

49
00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:01,320
Speaker 1: to end that conflict. Now, whether it did or not,

50
00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:03,560
Speaker 1: or how that went about, that's a whole another ball

51
00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:08,760
Speaker 1: of wax. Yeah, there is. But I say that our

52
00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:11,920
Speaker 1: story might start on that day, but we're not really

53
00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:15,200
Speaker 1: positive for reasons that will come out later on. Our

54
00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:21,280
Speaker 1: story mainly those starts on the fourth of February seventy three.

55
00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:24,760
Speaker 1: That is when a US Air Force e C forty seven,

56
00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:30,079
Speaker 1: operating under the call signed Baron fifty two, Yeah, took

57
00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:34,280
Speaker 1: off from Uban, Thailand at eleven o'clock at night. The

58
00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:37,480
Speaker 1: plane and crew went about their mission, and you know,

59
00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:41,000
Speaker 1: all was well for them for a little while, and

60
00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:44,960
Speaker 1: then they failed to make their required radio contact at

61
00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:48,280
Speaker 1: two a m. At which point in search and rescue

62
00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:52,240
Speaker 1: effort was launched, but it would be three days before

63
00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:55,520
Speaker 1: the wreckage would be found crashed into the mountain side

64
00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:59,680
Speaker 1: in the Jungles of Laos. The plane, when it was

65
00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:03,120
Speaker 1: found owned, was upside down, its wings were shorn off,

66
00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:06,440
Speaker 1: the rear portion of the plane was pretty destroyed because

67
00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:09,840
Speaker 1: it had it been on fire. Yeah, yeah, they pretty

68
00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:13,160
Speaker 1: large fire. Problem of course is that at this time

69
00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:16,440
Speaker 1: in Laos, in that area, this is part of the

70
00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:20,520
Speaker 1: human trail, so that even though the hostilities are not

71
00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:24,640
Speaker 1: supposed to be happening, there's still enemy forces around. You're

72
00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:31,520
Speaker 1: not talking just North Vietnamese and South Vietnamese communists, and yeah, everybody,

73
00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:34,919
Speaker 1: everybody's around, and nobody likes the Americans, which big shocker

74
00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:38,960
Speaker 1: happens all the time in situations like this, So search

75
00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:42,880
Speaker 1: and rescue efforts. They launch a mission on the ninth

76
00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:46,760
Speaker 1: of February and four men repel out of a helicopter

77
00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:51,000
Speaker 1: to the ground to inspect the craft, and their plan

78
00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:55,440
Speaker 1: is to confirm its identity and then identify and if possible,

79
00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:58,719
Speaker 1: recover the bodies of the crew. At the same time,

80
00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:02,719
Speaker 1: they're also task with destroying any sense of equipment that

81
00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:06,640
Speaker 1: they might find has survived the crash, because this particular plane,

82
00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:10,960
Speaker 1: as we'll talk about, has some very um some covert

83
00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:14,320
Speaker 1: radio sniffing technology on it, which was very important to

84
00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:18,760
Speaker 1: the U. S. Military. But these four men they get

85
00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:23,159
Speaker 1: down there and they are able to They're only able

86
00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:25,800
Speaker 1: to spend forty minutes total at the site. That in

87
00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:29,440
Speaker 1: turn includes the time repelling out of and repelling back

88
00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:31,920
Speaker 1: up into the helicopter, so they're not on the ground

89
00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:36,320
Speaker 1: but for maybe twenty or thirty minutes total. They're looking

90
00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:39,839
Speaker 1: around and they can get into the cockpit of the plane.

91
00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:42,120
Speaker 1: Did they get in or they just look in the windows,

92
00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:44,200
Speaker 1: because I've heard from some accounts it looks like they

93
00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:47,880
Speaker 1: just looked in they were It sounds to me they

94
00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:51,760
Speaker 1: were able to get a short distance into it based

95
00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:53,520
Speaker 1: on one of the bodies that they found that would

96
00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:56,560
Speaker 1: have been partially behind the partition. So I think they

97
00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:59,120
Speaker 1: did go in, now not very far, you know, probably

98
00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:03,160
Speaker 1: not farther than the pilot's chair distance into the cab.

99
00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:08,200
Speaker 1: It was. The wreck was very unstable, and that will

100
00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:10,920
Speaker 1: play a part in the way they go about things.

101
00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:14,040
Speaker 1: But when they get in there, they're able to identify

102
00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:19,080
Speaker 1: the remains of four individuals. There's Captain George Spitz, he's

103
00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:23,560
Speaker 1: the pilot, their second lieutenant several prim he was a

104
00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:27,599
Speaker 1: co pilot. Captain Arthur Bollinger was the navigator. And then

105
00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:30,400
Speaker 1: outside of the plane they also found the body of

106
00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:35,880
Speaker 1: First Lieutenant Robert Bernard, and he was the third part Bernhard,

107
00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:39,000
Speaker 1: thank you, my bad. What they didn't find, though, and

108
00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:41,760
Speaker 1: this is important to our story, is that they did

109
00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:45,760
Speaker 1: not find the other four members of the crew, which

110
00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:49,640
Speaker 1: again that's what's going on here, because this plane had

111
00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:52,560
Speaker 1: eight people on board, four in the front who were

112
00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:55,400
Speaker 1: flying it, and four in the rear who were running

113
00:06:55,440 --> 00:07:01,360
Speaker 1: the radio equipment. Well, the of the sorry to interrupt,

114
00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:03,720
Speaker 1: there wasn't a back of the plane anymore, right, Well,

115
00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:06,359
Speaker 1: there was to a degree. There was, to a degree,

116
00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:08,839
Speaker 1: it wasn't fully intact because of the fire and the crashes.

117
00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:11,880
Speaker 1: The tail had been ripped off, Like this wreck was

118
00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:18,200
Speaker 1: really really unstable. Yeah, yeah, especially if they come down

119
00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:21,080
Speaker 1: very hard. So what the mystery here is, of course,

120
00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:24,240
Speaker 1: is that if they didn't see the men the bodies

121
00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:27,080
Speaker 1: of the men at the back of the plane, did

122
00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:32,600
Speaker 1: they actually die in the plane the crash, or were

123
00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:36,320
Speaker 1: they actually able to bail out before the plane went down,

124
00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:40,800
Speaker 1: and if so, what then happened to them? Uh? And

125
00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:44,040
Speaker 1: there there's a lot of events that happened after the

126
00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:47,680
Speaker 1: after the plane initially disappears from radio contact that makes

127
00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:50,480
Speaker 1: some people think that maybe they did get out. And

128
00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:54,360
Speaker 1: we'll walk through all of that, but let's stop for

129
00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:57,480
Speaker 1: a second and let's roll back to the very beginning

130
00:07:57,480 --> 00:07:59,920
Speaker 1: of the story, because that's the general synopsis of why

131
00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:04,680
Speaker 1: this is a mystery. Okay, Sis, you know, I'm a

132
00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:07,680
Speaker 1: long winded guy. According to the Internet. Didn't your mom

133
00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:10,360
Speaker 1: teach you to be the sinct? Actually I met your mom.

134
00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:11,840
Speaker 1: Never mind, I was about to say, if you really

135
00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:13,520
Speaker 1: want me to answer this question, because I could go

136
00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:18,559
Speaker 1: on for a while. When Baron fifty two lifted off,

137
00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:22,960
Speaker 1: it was only eight days after the Paris Peace Accords

138
00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:28,960
Speaker 1: had officially gone into effect, but the US military, being

139
00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:34,960
Speaker 1: not the most trusting organization out there, didn't actually stop

140
00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:41,920
Speaker 1: its covert activities. Yeah. Yeah, well, and and officially, I

141
00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:46,240
Speaker 1: have to guess or unofficially, I'm sure that they're like, well, listen,

142
00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:47,880
Speaker 1: you know, we need to keep an eye on the

143
00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:52,120
Speaker 1: Communist People's Party of Vietnam and and find out what's

144
00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:55,880
Speaker 1: going on. Just in case they're, you know, gonna pull

145
00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:58,600
Speaker 1: a fast one on us and break the rules. That's

146
00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:01,559
Speaker 1: usually happens with C So it was makes a lot

147
00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:04,319
Speaker 1: of sense for contact. Remember it's eight days. I mean

148
00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:07,079
Speaker 1: when bearfits two left, it was only eight days. It

149
00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:09,720
Speaker 1: wasn't as if this was the first time a ceasefire

150
00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:13,320
Speaker 1: had been called and both sides had broken them before.

151
00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:17,760
Speaker 1: So things like this might be why those those things

152
00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:19,880
Speaker 1: got broken in the past. But if you want to

153
00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:21,480
Speaker 1: kind of kind of keep it, see if they're actually

154
00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:23,280
Speaker 1: abiding by it or not before you pull all your

155
00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:27,640
Speaker 1: troops out. Yeah. Yeah, so Baron fifty two itself, though,

156
00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:31,599
Speaker 1: Bear fifty two is a modified C forty seven aircraft,

157
00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:35,920
Speaker 1: and people who listen to this show regularly may actually

158
00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:40,959
Speaker 1: remember that plane from such great hits as Skytrain. Wait

159
00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:47,719
Speaker 1: a minute, train, skytrain, I did say, skytrain. Yeah, yeah,

160
00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:51,440
Speaker 1: modified d C three great great great planes. Yeah, except

161
00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:53,720
Speaker 1: when they crash. Yeah. Well, And for people who don't

162
00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:57,240
Speaker 1: who may not remember that great hit, like Joe said,

163
00:09:57,320 --> 00:09:59,520
Speaker 1: it's a it's a d C three, it's it's a

164
00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:03,439
Speaker 1: two engine prop plane. It was. It usually was, or

165
00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:05,079
Speaker 1: at least in the beginning, was meant to be hauled

166
00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:08,439
Speaker 1: hauling cargo, but then they started using it at times

167
00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:13,400
Speaker 1: to haul troops. This particular plane though, it is called

168
00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:16,960
Speaker 1: an EC forty seven because the back end of it

169
00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:20,959
Speaker 1: is crammed full of electronics equipment. So I mean that's

170
00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:23,720
Speaker 1: the the simple version of what the E stands for.

171
00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:29,360
Speaker 1: And it had four radio stations that each had individual

172
00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:34,560
Speaker 1: man operating said radio to be listening in on whoever

173
00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:37,960
Speaker 1: it was that they were following from the sky. Yeah,

174
00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:39,560
Speaker 1: I was. Actually it was like they had a lot

175
00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:41,720
Speaker 1: of rd F units in it, and so they could actually,

176
00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:44,560
Speaker 1: like you were cruising along anyway, they could get a

177
00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:46,920
Speaker 1: fix on somebody, get a bearing, and then just cruise

178
00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:48,880
Speaker 1: about a hundred miles down to get another fix and

179
00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:52,360
Speaker 1: then triangulate, and that's where the bombers go. You know.

180
00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:56,120
Speaker 1: It's it's like pretty clever. Well, And in this particular plane,

181
00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:58,800
Speaker 1: their job was on this particular night was they were

182
00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:03,960
Speaker 1: posedly because of munitions fire that they had been taking

183
00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:07,160
Speaker 1: anti aircraft fire they've been taking these planes that started

184
00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:10,040
Speaker 1: flying at about ten thousand feet. But they would also

185
00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:13,240
Speaker 1: then go over the border, you know, head to Louse

186
00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:17,400
Speaker 1: and the border of Vietnam, and they were tracking a

187
00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:20,840
Speaker 1: convoy of tanks, so they were listening to them to

188
00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:23,200
Speaker 1: try and figure out how far they were actually going

189
00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:26,080
Speaker 1: and were they just maneuvering around or were they actually

190
00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:30,720
Speaker 1: haul and tail heading south to continue the campaigns. That

191
00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:34,920
Speaker 1: was their particular mission on this particular night. Now, the

192
00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:39,240
Speaker 1: plane was, as I said, had eight, was staffed by

193
00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:43,440
Speaker 1: eight people. So the men in the or the men

194
00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:45,920
Speaker 1: in the rear, which they often would get called the

195
00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:48,640
Speaker 1: rear enders, which is just an odd way to put it,

196
00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:51,880
Speaker 1: but it makes sense. They were all part of the

197
00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:59,720
Speaker 1: security squadron. Off the tongue. I've never I don't remember

198
00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:02,520
Speaker 1: ever seeing military numbers that were more than three digits.

199
00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:05,400
Speaker 1: Shocked to see that. You never heard of the fighting

200
00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:14,880
Speaker 1: sixty Well, I must not watch enough movies. Um. The

201
00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:19,040
Speaker 1: guys that were in the front of the plane, they

202
00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:23,520
Speaker 1: were part of the three hundred sixty one Tactical Electronic

203
00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:29,960
Speaker 1: Warfare Squadron. I remember them. Yeah, basically a little more okay,

204
00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:32,800
Speaker 1: but basically, like I said before, the division is four

205
00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:35,040
Speaker 1: men in the back radio operators, four men in the

206
00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:40,880
Speaker 1: front flying, the navigating. The men who are operating the

207
00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:46,720
Speaker 1: surveillance equipment on this flight are Sergeant Todd Melton, Sergeant

208
00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:53,640
Speaker 1: Joseph Mattajov, Sergeant Peter Cressman, and Sergeant Dale Brandenburg that

209
00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:56,839
Speaker 1: particular night, Like I said, they were supposed to be

210
00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:00,800
Speaker 1: following a convoy of tanks, that we're traveling along the

211
00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:05,400
Speaker 1: human trail. And just I realized when I started doing

212
00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:07,199
Speaker 1: the research for this, so you guys know, I'm going

213
00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:10,000
Speaker 1: to Vietnam next year, right, So I started reading about

214
00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:12,439
Speaker 1: Vietnam and one of the things I discovered is when

215
00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:14,320
Speaker 1: it comes to geography, this happens all the time on

216
00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:17,040
Speaker 1: this show. I'm an idiot. Turns out what I know

217
00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:20,000
Speaker 1: about Vietnam I learned from Good Morning Vietnam. Yeah, I

218
00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:23,320
Speaker 1: think we don't learn geography very well in America because

219
00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:25,560
Speaker 1: I had it in my head that the Ho Chi

220
00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:30,720
Speaker 1: Minh Trail was an actual road and it's no, it

221
00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:34,640
Speaker 1: was like this this mile, yeah, this mini mile wide

222
00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:38,560
Speaker 1: swap that people would move through, and it jumped to

223
00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:43,439
Speaker 1: the border of not from Vietnam to Louse and eventually

224
00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:47,200
Speaker 1: into Cambodia. Like I just always in my head thought

225
00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:50,560
Speaker 1: it was, you know, like the main interstate or something stupid,

226
00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:55,200
Speaker 1: which makes no sense, but that's what It would have

227
00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:59,520
Speaker 1: been quite easy to interdict all that stuff. In retrospect,

228
00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:02,520
Speaker 1: i'd be like this, But for anybody else who might

229
00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:04,600
Speaker 1: have been under that misconception, I just wanted to be

230
00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:07,840
Speaker 1: here to help cleared up so you don't fail from

231
00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:13,760
Speaker 1: my foolishness. Yeah, jeez, guys, yeah, together, I knew all

232
00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:18,480
Speaker 1: of that. Okay, good, very good with de Vietnam Vet,

233
00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:21,800
Speaker 1: you know, he knows this stuff. It's true. By the way,

234
00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:23,800
Speaker 1: it should also be said about the Hotiban Trail is

235
00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:27,160
Speaker 1: an area of northeast Laos that was extremely rugged. In fact,

236
00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:29,360
Speaker 1: hardly anybody lived. There's another reason it made a great

237
00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:32,440
Speaker 1: smuggling sort of thing because there were no villagers that

238
00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:34,760
Speaker 1: could impour them on your movements or anything like that.

239
00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:37,680
Speaker 1: It's so rugged, some mountainous that really you couldn't have

240
00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:40,040
Speaker 1: a usable farm or anything like that up there, So

241
00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:42,120
Speaker 1: really nobody lived up there. That's why it was full

242
00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:45,760
Speaker 1: of fighters and guerrillas who were on both sides of

243
00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:48,680
Speaker 1: the campaign, because yeah, it was just a great place

244
00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:51,920
Speaker 1: to hide. Yeah, it's the way that communications were set

245
00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:56,040
Speaker 1: up for Barren fifty two. Yeah, because after you know,

246
00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:59,200
Speaker 1: of course they're flying up and down, they're following, Yeah,

247
00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:02,800
Speaker 1: they're following this this train of tanks on the Hoteman Trail.

248
00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:07,360
Speaker 1: But part of their their protocol was that they had

249
00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:11,680
Speaker 1: to on the radio communicate with command every thirty minutes,

250
00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:13,920
Speaker 1: and that was done on the hour in the half hour,

251
00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:19,320
Speaker 1: and they were doing that as normal. At about one

252
00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:23,360
Speaker 1: thirty in the morning, they called in and reported to Moonbeam,

253
00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:26,040
Speaker 1: which was the name of the air command control center

254
00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:29,240
Speaker 1: that they were reporting to, which was another airplane, which

255
00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:33,240
Speaker 1: was another airplane that they had been fired upon, but

256
00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:37,560
Speaker 1: they hadn't been hit. They then also reported at one

257
00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:41,600
Speaker 1: forty that they again had been fired at, but again

258
00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:44,360
Speaker 1: had not been hit. And this time when they were

259
00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:48,480
Speaker 1: fired at, if I remember correctly, it was actually radar

260
00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:52,040
Speaker 1: controlled anti aircraft guns that were shooting at them. So

261
00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:55,640
Speaker 1: it wasn't some bozo on a gun just firing These

262
00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:59,440
Speaker 1: were you know, yeah, yeah, they're much more accurate, or

263
00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:04,720
Speaker 1: can be more accurate. Um. So at this point, everything

264
00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:07,760
Speaker 1: is fine, They're over the Ochman Trail, they haven't been hit.

265
00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:12,040
Speaker 1: And then two o'clock comes along and BEARN fifty two

266
00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:17,080
Speaker 1: does not make its scheduled call. What happened? Well, as

267
00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:21,440
Speaker 1: we know, they crashed. Joe. Oh yeah, okay, sorry, I

268
00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:24,280
Speaker 1: forget so fast it's okay, it's all right. It's it's

269
00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:26,920
Speaker 1: hot in here today. He's having that effect. I mean,

270
00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:28,880
Speaker 1: the sweat is dripping off of me and it's disgusting,

271
00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:33,160
Speaker 1: and I apologize it is I'm shiny um. So so

272
00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:37,600
Speaker 1: very quickly, search and rescue efforts are launched and the

273
00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:40,760
Speaker 1: other aircraft that are in the area begin to look

274
00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:44,680
Speaker 1: for Barren fifty two, and I'm actually though they should

275
00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:47,880
Speaker 1: have they I'm surprised they didn't see him, because if

276
00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:50,360
Speaker 1: that plane burned as hot as they say it did,

277
00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:53,400
Speaker 1: it should have been a pretty bright spot in the

278
00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:59,480
Speaker 1: jungle to see. But regardless, nobody found Barren fifty two

279
00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:02,720
Speaker 1: on that first night. Yeah, well it's a lot of

280
00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:05,800
Speaker 1: area too, so I mean, I'm sure they didn't. You know,

281
00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:10,040
Speaker 1: it is sure that that is a very good point,

282
00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:14,560
Speaker 1: but yeah, I don't know. You can usually see big fires.

283
00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:16,679
Speaker 1: I mean again, I'm not you know, since I actually

284
00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:20,920
Speaker 1: I am not familiar with Vietnam at all, really rugged

285
00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:23,240
Speaker 1: and mountainous, so that they're in a little valley and

286
00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:28,000
Speaker 1: there's a little hill or mountain between you train that

287
00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:30,639
Speaker 1: goes up in that and I don't know if it

288
00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:32,800
Speaker 1: was a clear night or not. You know, because if

289
00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:34,440
Speaker 1: it was a clear knight, you would expect you could

290
00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:37,640
Speaker 1: see a column of smoke, you would think, But if

291
00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:39,960
Speaker 1: it wasn't. If it was and they went down to

292
00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:42,520
Speaker 1: two a m. So you wouldn't really see smoke at

293
00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:44,400
Speaker 1: that time in the morning. If it was, if there

294
00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:46,720
Speaker 1: was a moon out, you probably Oh, yeah, I guess, okay,

295
00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:49,359
Speaker 1: But anyway, the point of the matter is they didn't

296
00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:52,000
Speaker 1: see them. But it's weird. But it's weird that maybe

297
00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:56,840
Speaker 1: not the same night though, another surveillance craft which was

298
00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:01,760
Speaker 1: flying over the South China Sea, so this is directly

299
00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:05,160
Speaker 1: to the east's couple hundred miles because it's out over

300
00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:10,680
Speaker 1: open water. Um, this plane picks up a radio communication

301
00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:14,960
Speaker 1: that seemed to point to the fact that the men

302
00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:17,080
Speaker 1: in the back of the plane, that the crew in

303
00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:20,879
Speaker 1: the rear had actually been able to bail out or

304
00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:23,560
Speaker 1: get out of the plane, but as soon as they

305
00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:26,800
Speaker 1: hit the ground almost they were captured by the Vietnamese.

306
00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:30,479
Speaker 1: Now these are these are coded communications. Yeah, and by

307
00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:32,960
Speaker 1: the way, do you know what time that message was received?

308
00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:35,119
Speaker 1: I will be honest, they do not. In here is

309
00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:37,840
Speaker 1: why Joe, is that I have seen it reported as

310
00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:42,520
Speaker 1: anything from to thirty in the morning to five o'clock

311
00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:45,000
Speaker 1: in the morning to eight o'clock in the morning. I

312
00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:49,399
Speaker 1: have seen it reported all over and I I've found

313
00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:51,560
Speaker 1: a bunch of you know, government reports and documents and

314
00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:56,000
Speaker 1: stuff like that, and none of them actually said the

315
00:18:56,200 --> 00:19:00,640
Speaker 1: freaking time on them. Frustrating. Yeah, so even in terry time,

316
00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:08,600
Speaker 1: even in military time, sid stuff, I don't know. I

317
00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:11,359
Speaker 1: have no idea what time it was. No the time

318
00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:15,360
Speaker 1: is reported all over. I'm I'm willing to go with

319
00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:17,800
Speaker 1: you know, let's just say five o'clock, because that would

320
00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:20,840
Speaker 1: make sense for enough time to have transpired for men

321
00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:23,200
Speaker 1: to have bailed out of a plane and then been

322
00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:26,879
Speaker 1: captured and then somebody making a radio communic a the

323
00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:30,600
Speaker 1: I mean, for me, the real question is, right, it's

324
00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:34,199
Speaker 1: never been reported that it was like midnight, right, it

325
00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:37,760
Speaker 1: wasn't before this crash happened. It's always, even if it's

326
00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:41,119
Speaker 1: just even a half hour after, it's always after the

327
00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:43,760
Speaker 1: crash happened. And that I think is the important part.

328
00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:47,800
Speaker 1: Not necessarily so much, really important point would be great

329
00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:49,840
Speaker 1: to be able to say, yeah, okay, reasonably there was

330
00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:51,879
Speaker 1: that amount of time, but realistically, as long as it

331
00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:54,439
Speaker 1: happened afterwards, we can give credence to it, so a

332
00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:56,600
Speaker 1: little bit. That's a good point. And so, like I said,

333
00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:01,560
Speaker 1: this is these are coded communications from the Vietnamese army.

334
00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:05,320
Speaker 1: So what we've got is we've got American men who

335
00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:10,840
Speaker 1: are translating a coded message in another language. So and

336
00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:14,119
Speaker 1: they're picking it up while in an airplane. So that well,

337
00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:16,800
Speaker 1: I'm saying this because that means that the communication isn't

338
00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:22,120
Speaker 1: always the clearest reception. And the guy who first met

339
00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:25,119
Speaker 1: took this, who heard it, he jotted it down and

340
00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:27,840
Speaker 1: wrote it down. It was then recorded, and it was

341
00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:31,280
Speaker 1: also recorded onto tape. That tape was then brought back

342
00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:34,680
Speaker 1: to some command center I presume, where it was again

343
00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:40,720
Speaker 1: listened to and a second person was able to uh

344
00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:44,399
Speaker 1: code it or decode it. And what happens here is

345
00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:51,880
Speaker 1: we get two different versions of the message. So here's

346
00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:55,399
Speaker 1: well the translations, and you know, there's there's a lot

347
00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:56,879
Speaker 1: of stuff. We'll talk about that a minute, but let

348
00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:00,240
Speaker 1: me give you the actual messages. The first versions as

349
00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:04,600
Speaker 1: Group to seventeen is holding four pilots captive and the

350
00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:08,200
Speaker 1: group is requesting orders concerning what to do with them.

351
00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:13,800
Speaker 1: The second translator comes up with presently Group to ten

352
00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:16,560
Speaker 1: or sometimes you'll see it said group to ten B.

353
00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:21,720
Speaker 1: But presently group to ten has four pirates. They are

354
00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:27,520
Speaker 1: going there's a gap from four toe that is the

355
00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:32,440
Speaker 1: word to not the number two so and and that's

356
00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:35,080
Speaker 1: where it exists. Now, the problem with this, this log

357
00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:38,800
Speaker 1: or this radio capture is what the military would do

358
00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:40,719
Speaker 1: is they would have the second guy go through it

359
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:44,119
Speaker 1: and confirm it or correct it, and then they would

360
00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:47,040
Speaker 1: send the tape back onto another plane to be recorded

361
00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:51,720
Speaker 1: over again. So it does not exist anymore. But historically

362
00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:55,359
Speaker 1: more credence is given to a second translation in a

363
00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,119
Speaker 1: situation like this than a first translation. Is that correct,

364
00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:02,480
Speaker 1: you would think, But I'm just wondering. I'm trying to

365
00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:04,560
Speaker 1: think of the politically correct way to say this. There's

366
00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:07,960
Speaker 1: a lot of fighting and debate over which one is

367
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:11,600
Speaker 1: correct right in this particular instance. But I just didn't

368
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:13,480
Speaker 1: know if there was like a historic record of I'm

369
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,640
Speaker 1: sure this happened all the time, right that the translation,

370
00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:20,760
Speaker 1: and so I just didn't know if the general consensus

371
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:23,160
Speaker 1: was we're going with what the second guy who's not

372
00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:26,840
Speaker 1: in an airplane in a stressful situation says, or okay,

373
00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:30,240
Speaker 1: So officially, the Air Force logs go with what the

374
00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:32,720
Speaker 1: second guys said. Okay, because the second guy I actually

375
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:35,760
Speaker 1: did get a chance to listen to it more than once, right, yes, yeah, yeah,

376
00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:38,320
Speaker 1: I mean the first guy is doing it on the

377
00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:42,400
Speaker 1: flyded so he's just trying to do it as quick

378
00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:48,240
Speaker 1: as in an airplane and could get shot at any second. Yes, yes, exactly. Okay,

379
00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:50,280
Speaker 1: so but that's I mean, I'm just trying to give

380
00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:53,879
Speaker 1: historic context to which one generally would be given more.

381
00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:56,399
Speaker 1: I believe the second one. As we said, so okay,

382
00:22:56,480 --> 00:23:00,320
Speaker 1: now as we know the plane it's wouldn't actually be

383
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:05,080
Speaker 1: found until the seventh of February, and then, like we

384
00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:08,359
Speaker 1: talked about before, that wreckage wouldn't be inspected until two

385
00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:11,960
Speaker 1: days later, which was the ninth of February. And the

386
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:14,960
Speaker 1: search and rescue team who were who repelled out of

387
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:18,119
Speaker 1: the Jolly Green Giant said that they couldn't you're laughing,

388
00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:20,920
Speaker 1: but that's what they called those big giant green helicopters.

389
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:25,399
Speaker 1: I love that. But they said that they didn't go

390
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:30,920
Speaker 1: into the fuselage of the plane because they were worried

391
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:34,719
Speaker 1: that it wasn't stable enough, and they were also kind

392
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:37,520
Speaker 1: of worried about booby traps that too. They had also

393
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:41,280
Speaker 1: considered putting a rope around it and having the helicopter

394
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:44,080
Speaker 1: lifted up to try and flip it over, but they

395
00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:47,560
Speaker 1: didn't believe that structurally it would stand that and it

396
00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:50,040
Speaker 1: would probably just crumble and be a waste of time.

397
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:54,080
Speaker 1: So they couldn't do a whole lot. And part of

398
00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:57,639
Speaker 1: the reason that it was so unstable is when Baron

399
00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:00,320
Speaker 1: fifty two went down, it had about five was a

400
00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:06,360
Speaker 1: fuel on board. That's a lot of fuel to burn that.

401
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,159
Speaker 1: I mean, that melts metal. That's one of the problem.

402
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:21,080
Speaker 1: Is it destroys, It melts people met Yes, it does bars. Okay,

403
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:24,720
Speaker 1: that's good to know. But but of course the important

404
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,680
Speaker 1: point here is that because and this again, this is

405
00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:31,440
Speaker 1: the thing that people gravitate to, because they never went

406
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:33,760
Speaker 1: into the rear of the plane. They never actually saw

407
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:37,520
Speaker 1: any bodies. Now, just to give you us a little

408
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:40,119
Speaker 1: bit of context here, the bodies of the men that

409
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:43,439
Speaker 1: they found in the front they were badly burned. They

410
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:46,639
Speaker 1: were really badly burned. But was it no vax? Was

411
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:50,399
Speaker 1: that the kind of suit? I their flight suits might

412
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:52,480
Speaker 1: have been it, I think, thank you, it was. It's

413
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:55,880
Speaker 1: flame retardant flight suits. The flight suits are what kept

414
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:59,359
Speaker 1: their bodies from being entirely consumed by flames. They didn't

415
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,200
Speaker 1: cover everything. No, No, it's just like the black box

416
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:03,680
Speaker 1: in the plane. Why don't they just make the whole

417
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:06,159
Speaker 1: plane out of it? We have this conversation every time. Well,

418
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:09,720
Speaker 1: here's a question with the with the rear enders have

419
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:14,000
Speaker 1: also been wearing flight suits like that. I cannot say,

420
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:17,320
Speaker 1: don't know, I don't know, I don't know. I would

421
00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:20,480
Speaker 1: presume that they would be wearing flight suits as well,

422
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:23,840
Speaker 1: but I would and not just in regular jumpsuits. But

423
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:27,240
Speaker 1: god knows, I don't have the military history background to

424
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:31,159
Speaker 1: be able to answer that, unfortunately. Yeah. Um oh. So

425
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:33,440
Speaker 1: here's the other thing is that the search and rescuers

426
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:36,240
Speaker 1: when they got on the ground, they said that even

427
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:40,280
Speaker 1: though the plane had been consumed by fire, when they

428
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 1: looked at where the rear jump door was, this is

429
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 1: the rear door of the plane. The people climbed in

430
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,199
Speaker 1: and out right, and from looking at these doors it

431
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:53,240
Speaker 1: and I might be wrong, and if I'm wrong, I apologize,

432
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 1: But appeared to me it was an opening that was

433
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 1: on hinges. But there was also a kickout portion of

434
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:01,840
Speaker 1: that door that in an emergency you could just punch

435
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:04,480
Speaker 1: it out there is. Yeah, it's actually actually the frame

436
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,439
Speaker 1: one is actually just kind of it really is just

437
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:09,960
Speaker 1: kind of a frame. Yeah, that the paratroute door that

438
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:14,680
Speaker 1: you kick out is almost Well, the point is, even

439
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 1: even in that much heat, a portion of that kick

440
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:21,680
Speaker 1: out door should have been there. They should have seen it,

441
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:23,920
Speaker 1: and when they looked at the plane they didn't see that.

442
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:27,840
Speaker 1: So this is corroboration from search and rescue that the

443
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 1: door is missing, which means maybe the guys weren't there,

444
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:34,120
Speaker 1: or maybe it's like critically failed and blew out because

445
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 1: the plane was on fire and pressure was weird. Maybe

446
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 1: possible as well. People will also say, well, those search

447
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 1: and rescuers, they didn't find any of the sensitive radio

448
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:44,199
Speaker 1: equipment that was in the back of the plane, So

449
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:47,040
Speaker 1: that's proof that the guys because keep in mind, these guys'

450
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:49,919
Speaker 1: job in the event the plane is going down is

451
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:54,680
Speaker 1: to to take the equipment with them and destroy it

452
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:58,520
Speaker 1: so the enemy can't get it. But key point, if

453
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 1: they don't go in the back of the lane, they

454
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:05,120
Speaker 1: can't confirm if that equipment is actually there. So that's

455
00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 1: a clane that always frustrates me when I read it. Well,

456
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 1: one of the things I wonder about too, is before

457
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:11,879
Speaker 1: they left a day, like you know, like toss a

458
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:14,440
Speaker 1: few thromigrainade into the plane to make sure that equipment

459
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 1: was totally totally fried. I would imagine that they would

460
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 1: not have done that because if if they jumped, the

461
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 1: plane was still in the air, which means the men

462
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:29,879
Speaker 1: piloting the aircrafts oh no, I don't know. Search. I

463
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 1: don't think Search and rescue did anything. But they recovered

464
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:35,720
Speaker 1: one body or partial remains of one body, and then

465
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 1: they had to boogie. I understand their self preservation, because

466
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 1: I didn't understand they could also have been shot down

467
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:45,440
Speaker 1: or things like that. But I would assume that if

468
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 1: it was so important that the enemy not gain access

469
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 1: to this proprietary covert technology, if they weren't sure that

470
00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:00,080
Speaker 1: it was not there or already destroyed, they would have

471
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:05,359
Speaker 1: done something destroy it. So I guess for me, even

472
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:06,960
Speaker 1: though we can say like they didn't go into the

473
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,200
Speaker 1: back of the airplane, it didn't look like the back

474
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:12,199
Speaker 1: of the airplane was really intact that much. From the

475
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:16,320
Speaker 1: really grainy pictures you find online, Um that are I

476
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 1: think all aerial, right, Yeah, it's one aerial photo, but

477
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:23,359
Speaker 1: you can hardly tell, but it does look like to

478
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:25,719
Speaker 1: me you can kind of see the front of it,

479
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:27,840
Speaker 1: and then the back of it just looks like it's

480
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,120
Speaker 1: blown out. And maybe your impression of that was different.

481
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 1: But so I don't know that there was necessarily a

482
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:37,439
Speaker 1: back to go into. They could have done a visual

483
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 1: search of So, well, here's what is to get on

484
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 1: the ground. One of them or one or two post

485
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:47,200
Speaker 1: up his guards and then only so only two of

486
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 1: them are actually searching the plane, and they spend about

487
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 1: fifteen plus minutes attempting to extract one of the bodies

488
00:28:56,280 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 1: from the cockpit. So I mean that's not don't even

489
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 1: have a lot of time. No, that's not counting the

490
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:04,720
Speaker 1: time that they dropped. So they've already expended fifteen minutes.

491
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 1: It's only two of them. I don't know that they

492
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 1: really were able to do too much snooping around. But

493
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 1: you're right, that plane was a total disaster. As they said,

494
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 1: it's upside down, the wings are shorn off, the tail

495
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,240
Speaker 1: is broken off, and something like a hundred yards behind

496
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 1: the wreck. So they may have looked at it and went, no,

497
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 1: nothing could have survived that fire, and there's no reason

498
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 1: to even bother to look for the equipment. That's a

499
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 1: very valid point. I don't know. I just react to

500
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:35,720
Speaker 1: people saying and they knew that it wasn't there because

501
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 1: they don't actually know. Yeah, I've heard the story that

502
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 1: they say that the parachutes were gone and the equipment

503
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 1: was gone, But in the official thing, I don't. I

504
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 1: don't think it's I think I'm willing to say it

505
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 1: was functionally gone. Ye may not have physically not been there,

506
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 1: but it may it probably just still they sat granades,

507
00:29:57,640 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 1: and I would agree with that. That's why we're going

508
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 1: to be a a zombie apocalypse team. But I'm just saying,

509
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:09,959
Speaker 1: you know, to me there, I cannot imagine if it

510
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:12,520
Speaker 1: was as sensitive as it seems like it was, that

511
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:16,560
Speaker 1: their main directive would have been find the bodies. That rather,

512
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 1: their main objective would have been, hey, make sure that well,

513
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 1: no that That's what I'm saying before, is that they

514
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:25,960
Speaker 1: they had it was it was multiple responsibilities. Was recover

515
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 1: the equipment if possible or destroy it, recover and identify

516
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 1: the bodies if possible, recover them alive, right of course,

517
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 1: and look for a survivors. So, but this was they

518
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 1: were doing all of this at the time yeah, okay,

519
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 1: So they go, they look, they recover one set of remains,

520
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 1: and initially the U. S. Air Force lists the four

521
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 1: men that are in the rear of the plane as

522
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 1: missing in action. And then several days later, and by

523
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:00,480
Speaker 1: the way, this is after they've can tacked to the

524
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 1: families and said, listen, this is what happens to your son.

525
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 1: We believe they're missing an action. We don't have anything

526
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 1: to lead us to believe anything different. And the I've

527
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 1: read the requirements from the U. S. Air Force that

528
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 1: says they actually air on the side of missing in

529
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 1: action rather than killed an action unless they absolutely positively

530
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 1: can confirm somebody saying, you don't want to list somebody

531
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 1: as dead. That isn't the paperwork alone to get somebody

532
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 1: back alive. But so so these guys come out, the

533
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:33,960
Speaker 1: Air Force says, this is what's going on. And then

534
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:37,160
Speaker 1: suddenly eight days later, I think it's eight days after,

535
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 1: which is weird because it's the same number of days. Anyway,

536
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 1: eight days later they come out and they say, oh,

537
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 1: got no, no, those those four men they were definitely

538
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 1: killed in action. They were definitely killed when that plane

539
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 1: went down. And that leaves a funny taste and a

540
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 1: lot of people's mouths because they were very the word

541
00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 1: I've seen it described as hasty, were very hasty in

542
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 1: that decision, and things we're going to talk about it

543
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 1: in the theory section may explain why they felt that

544
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:12,480
Speaker 1: people feel that that was such a hasty decision. So

545
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 1: we are now done with the story, so as always,

546
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 1: we need to go into theories. So let's talk about

547
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 1: the first theory. That first theory is that per the

548
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 1: United States Air Force and all of its reporting, they

549
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:30,560
Speaker 1: told the truth and the men did actually die in

550
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:35,240
Speaker 1: the crash. Surprising, I guess. Well, and yeah, let's let's

551
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:37,520
Speaker 1: run through it because I mean, the official report says

552
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 1: all eight of them died in the crash, and they

553
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:45,560
Speaker 1: say that there are several things that confirm this. There's

554
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 1: first off is the fact that there was no radio

555
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 1: contact from the crew whatsoever, and they would have expected that.

556
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 1: And let me clarify what they're talking about here, because first,

557
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:00,960
Speaker 1: these men are so well trained that is expected that

558
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 1: as the plane is descending, you know, losing flight, falling

559
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:12,959
Speaker 1: out of the sky, losing altitude, there's the word I'm looking. Yeah, okay,

560
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 1: so it's descending if it were cabled capable of having

561
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 1: made contact or sent out, you know, a broadcast of

562
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 1: some kind, whether it be from the pilot or the

563
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 1: men in the back of the plane. That should have

564
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 1: happened automatically. Somebody should have said made a we're going down.

565
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 1: It makes a lot of sense because you want them

566
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 1: to know you're going down so they can come look

567
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 1: for you right now. Yeah, absolutely, um. And also I mean,

568
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 1: also just to you know, drive home a point. They

569
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 1: radioed in every time they almost got hit, right, I mean,

570
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 1: they checked in every half hour, but more than that,

571
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 1: you know, at thirty they said, uh, just got missed.

572
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 1: At forty before they had to check in again, they said,

573
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 1: just got missed again, and then silence. So you know,

574
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 1: if somebody's shooting at them, they're going to if they're

575
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:09,759
Speaker 1: radioing to say somebody's shooting at us and missing us,

576
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:15,160
Speaker 1: they're going to radio and say oh. Now that people

577
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:18,800
Speaker 1: do say, well, of course, you know, well something happened

578
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 1: and the engines died, but of course the plane had

579
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 1: batteries on it. The radios would have worked. Even if

580
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 1: both engines had literally fallen off of the plane, it

581
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,640
Speaker 1: still would have continued to have electricity. To be able

582
00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:34,839
Speaker 1: to send a radio signal of some kind. The only

583
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,439
Speaker 1: thing I can think of here is that they may

584
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,240
Speaker 1: have tried to be sending radio signals, but I'm guessing

585
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:45,520
Speaker 1: that whatever hit them probably destroyed their antenna array. Now

586
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:47,719
Speaker 1: I don't I don't know enough if there is more,

587
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:50,439
Speaker 1: if there was a backup antenna. But it's like if

588
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:53,880
Speaker 1: it was literally meant to be picking up a radio signals,

589
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 1: they brought something, But I don't know that they're necessarily

590
00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:59,880
Speaker 1: broadcasting with the same equipment that they are listening with.

591
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:01,880
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't want to run down that

592
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:04,359
Speaker 1: Alley did have a lot of different radio gear and

593
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 1: a lot of antennas on those planes, right, So it's

594
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:09,759
Speaker 1: so it's it's hard to say. It's like Amelia Heart.

595
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,640
Speaker 1: You know that you're gonna have at least well, not

596
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 1: like Amelia Heart, she had like one, Okay, okay, you're

597
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:17,799
Speaker 1: gonna have You're gonna want to have at least two,

598
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:21,480
Speaker 1: maybe three radios for communications purposes with bass, you know,

599
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 1: and uh absolutely yeah. So the second kind of radio

600
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 1: contact that was expected to be heard from these guys,

601
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:32,239
Speaker 1: if indeed they bailed out, was it should have been

602
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:35,200
Speaker 1: radio contact that was coming from what is known as

603
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:40,439
Speaker 1: air crew survival radios, and that is literally the hit

604
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 1: a button and it just sends out an automated distress signal,

605
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:48,839
Speaker 1: Um help me something like. I mean, you know, it's

606
00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:51,879
Speaker 1: if you ever seen that Owen Wilson movie Behind Enemy

607
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:55,800
Speaker 1: Lines and he's got the funny little radio find Me box.

608
00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 1: It's an early early version of what they show in

609
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:01,439
Speaker 1: that movie. And now I'm telling you to go see

610
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:05,520
Speaker 1: that movie. It's a great movie. I just thought Williams

611
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:07,640
Speaker 1: doing a non comedy. What are we talking about here?

612
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 1: What the hell it happened? I'm sure it was some

613
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 1: bad contract negotiation by his agent. I don't know, but

614
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:15,680
Speaker 1: he did. It will interest you all to know they

615
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 1: have those in all of the inflatable life boats, very similar. Yeah,

616
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:25,280
Speaker 1: and personal flotation devices. Yeah. They're they're a little handheld

617
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:28,400
Speaker 1: about size of Milwaukee talkie and you just flipped the switch.

618
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:31,719
Speaker 1: You don't have to do anything complicated and they go off.

619
00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:35,719
Speaker 1: And if these guys had bailed out, according to the

620
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:39,760
Speaker 1: Air Force, they should have been broadcasting with these things

621
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:42,600
Speaker 1: right away. You assume they would, because it'd be the

622
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:46,319
Speaker 1: way they'd be found. Haven't a set up? There wouldn't you. Yeah.

623
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:51,480
Speaker 1: Other things that the Air Force points out, they say

624
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:53,799
Speaker 1: the condition of the aircraft because, like I said, as

625
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:56,720
Speaker 1: we've talked about a couple of times, it was upside down,

626
00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 1: and they say they're pretty sure that that plane came

627
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:04,440
Speaker 1: in nose first, and the lack of any kind of

628
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:08,520
Speaker 1: skid marks through the jungle or anything nothing like that.

629
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:13,080
Speaker 1: It appears that it fell nose first vertically and hit

630
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:17,279
Speaker 1: and boom and then flopped over on its back. It

631
00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:19,759
Speaker 1: could be like maybe a wing fell off or something

632
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:21,879
Speaker 1: like that. They went into a tail spin. Well, yeah,

633
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 1: the Air Force thinks that it went into a tail spin.

634
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:27,239
Speaker 1: And that's actually a really important thing because if the

635
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:30,120
Speaker 1: plane is in a tail spin, from what I understand

636
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:34,440
Speaker 1: it is, would be all but impossible for those guys

637
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:35,880
Speaker 1: in the rear of the plane to be able to

638
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:38,839
Speaker 1: punch out the jump door and then be able to

639
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:43,800
Speaker 1: jump out of that plane and clear it like they wouldn't.

640
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 1: They shouldn't have been able to get out because either

641
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:49,759
Speaker 1: it's blowing, you know, spinning into the door. H that

642
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:51,719
Speaker 1: would you know, then create the air pressure you can't

643
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:53,920
Speaker 1: get away from. And I don't know that you'd want

644
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 1: to jump it was spinning the other direction, because then

645
00:37:56,160 --> 00:38:00,359
Speaker 1: that's just gonna throw you right into the propellers. I mean,

646
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:03,960
Speaker 1: this all sounds like really like logical reason. I guess,

647
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 1: you know, for me, I would presume to just kind

648
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 1: of address the fact that they, you know, took eight

649
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 1: days to go from m I A to kill then action.

650
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:14,760
Speaker 1: I think you know, what you were saying is true

651
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:19,479
Speaker 1: that the Air Force is very tentative to just say

652
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:24,000
Speaker 1: military yeah, and so well people should be pretty tentative

653
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:26,319
Speaker 1: to just say if they're dead. But it really what

654
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 1: it sounds like happened to me is, you know, they

655
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:31,279
Speaker 1: found that wreckage, and they said, okay, there's a possibility

656
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:34,239
Speaker 1: that maybe, you know, without having assessed anything, there's a

657
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:37,920
Speaker 1: possibility that maybe they bailed out. We did not conclusively

658
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:40,799
Speaker 1: find their bodies, so okay, and they went back and

659
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:43,880
Speaker 1: assessed it, and you know, came to this story where

660
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:48,560
Speaker 1: what the forensic evidence or whatever you know, said and realized, really,

661
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:52,360
Speaker 1: there's no plausible possibility that these men survived this crash

662
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:55,320
Speaker 1: and then moved them. Eight days is a reasonable amount

663
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:58,279
Speaker 1: of time to spend investigating something of this. I think

664
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:01,840
Speaker 1: I don't know that they actually investigated I mean for

665
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 1: eight days though? Is the point here, Devan? But even

666
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 1: that's what people get so peeved off about is that

667
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:10,919
Speaker 1: it wasn't as if for eight days a US Air

668
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 1: Force group spent nothing but time looking at the data

669
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 1: and saying, Okay, what exactly happened in giving a determination?

670
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:20,160
Speaker 1: It doesn't take eight days to look at this stuff, right,

671
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:22,920
Speaker 1: they can I clarify that it would be even more

672
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:25,399
Speaker 1: suspicious to a lot of people if like a day

673
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:27,560
Speaker 1: later they were like, well, just getting killed an action,

674
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:30,200
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Like they had to get

675
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:32,879
Speaker 1: all of the footage, they had to take statements, they

676
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:35,920
Speaker 1: had to probably like have a couple of experts, They

677
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 1: had to really take the time to compile all of

678
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:41,359
Speaker 1: the evidence. It's not that I'm saying they're sitting there

679
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:43,920
Speaker 1: in a room for eight days, probably not even compiling

680
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:47,080
Speaker 1: evidence for eight days realistically, but that the process could

681
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:49,319
Speaker 1: have reasonably taken eight days, and that they could have

682
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:52,840
Speaker 1: said yep. But again what I was saying earlier is

683
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:56,839
Speaker 1: that there were there. Their manuals actually point out if

684
00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:02,319
Speaker 1: you cannot confirm nobody laid eyes on what happened, you

685
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 1: do not change them from M I A to K

686
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:08,760
Speaker 1: I a and that's what that's really what what sticks

687
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:10,480
Speaker 1: in the crawl of all of these families of these

688
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:13,399
Speaker 1: four men, and for I mean this was in nine

689
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:18,200
Speaker 1: seventy three. For five years, these families just lived with

690
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:23,040
Speaker 1: the understanding that their sons had died in the crash

691
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:30,000
Speaker 1: when the plane went down, until in eight somebody from

692
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:32,799
Speaker 1: the U. S. Air Force called them up to tell

693
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:36,000
Speaker 1: them that there was a possibility that the men had

694
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:39,359
Speaker 1: actually gotten out and been captured by the enemy, which

695
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:42,680
Speaker 1: is something we talked about in the beginning. So let's

696
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:45,440
Speaker 1: move into theory number two, which is they actually bailed

697
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:50,360
Speaker 1: out and we're captured, and we're captured. Exactly what happens.

698
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:52,319
Speaker 1: What's going on with this Well, there's a lot of

699
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:54,839
Speaker 1: stuff going on in it. The basics of it are

700
00:40:55,040 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 1: that Melton, Matta, Jov Cressman, and Brandon Burg, like we

701
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 1: said before, they parachuted out and then we're immediately captured

702
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:08,600
Speaker 1: by the People's Army of Vietnam, and then those crewman

703
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:12,520
Speaker 1: would have been considered very valuable assets, not only to

704
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 1: the Vietnamese, but to the good buddies of Vietnamese, the

705
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 1: Soviet Union. They would have turned them over to them

706
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:21,880
Speaker 1: and they would have taken them back to the Moscow

707
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:24,480
Speaker 1: or wherever, and yeah, they would have. They would have

708
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:27,279
Speaker 1: gotten them out of the country because they're radio men,

709
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:31,760
Speaker 1: so they know US US Air Force codes and procedures.

710
00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:35,480
Speaker 1: They have a lot of knowledge in them that you

711
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:40,120
Speaker 1: can see the Soviets really really wanting to have the

712
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:43,120
Speaker 1: opportunity to get their hands on. So that's that's kind

713
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:46,720
Speaker 1: of the general breakdown of the theory in the beginning.

714
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:49,520
Speaker 1: And then we'll get into our our you know, thickets

715
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:53,239
Speaker 1: of bits here. So we're gonna talk about that radio

716
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:56,920
Speaker 1: communication again, uh, it said, and I'll give it to

717
00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:59,680
Speaker 1: you again. It says, Group to seventeen is holding four

718
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:03,040
Speaker 1: pie let's captive, and the group is requesting orders concerning

719
00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:05,520
Speaker 1: what to do with them. And then the second version

720
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:10,399
Speaker 1: is presently group to ten has four pirates. They are

721
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:14,920
Speaker 1: going from forty four to ninety three. The things that

722
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 1: people point out that are really interesting about that is

723
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 1: that apparently the Vietnamese interchangeably used the words pilot and

724
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:30,520
Speaker 1: pirate all the time for guys flying planes. They considered

725
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:33,759
Speaker 1: them to be pirates, I guess is the reasoning. Well,

726
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:37,480
Speaker 1: I've heard also that they and this wasn't the Vietnamese.

727
00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:40,439
Speaker 1: I thought it was like the oceans had captured these guys,

728
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:42,160
Speaker 1: they were going to turn them over to the Vietnamese.

729
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:45,400
Speaker 1: I was the impression that it was the Vietnamese that

730
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:48,319
Speaker 1: had done it, because it was on the Hotemen trail

731
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:51,560
Speaker 1: and therefore the Vietnamese army was flowing through there. It

732
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:53,799
Speaker 1: could have been I was thinking, well, we can agree

733
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:55,920
Speaker 1: with I just don't know, but I had heard that

734
00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:58,319
Speaker 1: they used them and claysure like the word pirate could

735
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:02,080
Speaker 1: apply it to like bandits um and also just members

736
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:04,320
Speaker 1: of the opposition, like they were at the communist guerrillas

737
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:07,160
Speaker 1: operating in the area too, And apparently I heard they

738
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:09,640
Speaker 1: refer to them as pirates also, Yeah, so it was

739
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:13,280
Speaker 1: it was it was basically a word to describe the enemy,

740
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 1: not just a particular group. And so if pilot and

741
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:23,360
Speaker 1: pirate or miss translator to miss decoded, that could lead

742
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:26,600
Speaker 1: to confusion, which again it's obviously led up to a

743
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:30,560
Speaker 1: whole bunch in here. Um. Let's see, we had at

744
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:33,520
Speaker 1: one point in the initial reading it was group to seventeen.

745
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 1: In the second reading it was group to ten. People

746
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:42,399
Speaker 1: say that the difference phonetically in the language between two

747
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:46,360
Speaker 1: ten and to seventeen isn't isn't much, so it could

748
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:50,280
Speaker 1: easily have been miss translated. So there's something that people

749
00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 1: poke holes into it with. But really, what people always

750
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:55,360
Speaker 1: want to know about is, Okay, so what's up with

751
00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:59,399
Speaker 1: the forty four to nine three? And that has been

752
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:05,720
Speaker 1: interpret quite a lot to mean kilometer markers along some

753
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:08,560
Speaker 1: kind of route along a road, whether it be an

754
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:12,239
Speaker 1: east west or north south road. People are saying, well,

755
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:14,279
Speaker 1: this means that what they're saying is that they were

756
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:18,719
Speaker 1: taking them from marker four kilometer marker forty four two

757
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:23,480
Speaker 1: kilometer marker nine three. But we don't know where that goes.

758
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 1: That's a that's a hard, hard one. You know that

759
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:29,480
Speaker 1: those also could have been just like code numbers that

760
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:33,200
Speaker 1: meant like, you know, forty four ment alive, three meant dead,

761
00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:36,160
Speaker 1: and it could have been that. Then yeah, yeah, there

762
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:37,680
Speaker 1: could have been a lot of different things. I mean,

763
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:40,000
Speaker 1: it may have been coded to the degree that whoever

764
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:44,120
Speaker 1: decoded it didn't decoded correctly. It may not have had

765
00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:46,920
Speaker 1: the entire key. I don't know. I mean, I have

766
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 1: no idea. I heard some of these. At least one

767
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:51,920
Speaker 1: of these messages was actually decode by a guy who's

768
00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:57,080
Speaker 1: was Ocean was not his real primary language, and he

769
00:44:57,120 --> 00:45:00,040
Speaker 1: wasn't that strong in it. Was a linguist, but I

770
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:02,360
Speaker 1: don't think it was this big language and so and

771
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:04,600
Speaker 1: so a lot of way that has been placed upon

772
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:07,160
Speaker 1: this guy's interpretation. Is he the second Is he the

773
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:09,920
Speaker 1: one who did the second interpretation? Yeah? And I can

774
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:12,399
Speaker 1: I had his name written down or something like that.

775
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:15,200
Speaker 1: I can't remember. You don't have it written anymore. But

776
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:17,920
Speaker 1: he is apparently the one that raised the stink and

777
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 1: got the families involved in seventy So can you I'm sorry,

778
00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 1: can you just clarify for me here? This transmission was

779
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:28,200
Speaker 1: picked up by a plane pretty far away right over,

780
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:33,719
Speaker 1: so a couple hundred miles maybe. Yeah, let's say, okay,

781
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:37,319
Speaker 1: big question, what's how do we know this is even

782
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:40,839
Speaker 1: about this thing? We don't, okay, And that's a very

783
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:44,920
Speaker 1: good point to raise the fit from the U. S.

784
00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:49,200
Speaker 1: Air Force, they say that the person who was monitoring

785
00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:54,160
Speaker 1: the frequency that this original message came through on believed

786
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:57,920
Speaker 1: that all of the communication that he was listening to

787
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:04,279
Speaker 1: was actually coming out of um Vin City, which is

788
00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:09,279
Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty miles away four KOs from the

789
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:13,359
Speaker 1: site from where Barren fifty two went down. People say, well,

790
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:16,839
Speaker 1: that's an awfully long ways away to be related. I

791
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:19,400
Speaker 1: will use a grain of saualt here and say that

792
00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:21,920
Speaker 1: doesn't really bother me so much, because it could have

793
00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:25,279
Speaker 1: been somebody calling up the chain of command, who was

794
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:27,359
Speaker 1: then calling up the chain of command, who was then

795
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:30,319
Speaker 1: calling up the chain of commanding a game of telephone

796
00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:34,799
Speaker 1: to get the message along. I'm I'm just saying that

797
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:38,040
Speaker 1: I could see that. I'm not saying that's a serious contention,

798
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:41,919
Speaker 1: but that is one of the problems with it that

799
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:47,560
Speaker 1: it's it's not from that very very close range to

800
00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:53,120
Speaker 1: the crash site, but beyond beyond that, the there were

801
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:55,800
Speaker 1: other reasons that people believe they got out of the

802
00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:59,799
Speaker 1: plane and they were captured. Right, Which parts are you

803
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:03,759
Speaker 1: talking about here, because I'm looking through my lips. Well now,

804
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:06,240
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm just talking about the door being missing

805
00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:08,839
Speaker 1: in the parachutes being gone and all that stuff. Yeah,

806
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:12,879
Speaker 1: And were we through the debunking part yet? We want

807
00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:15,240
Speaker 1: to go there yet? No? No, because there's a couple

808
00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:18,320
Speaker 1: of things here that I find interesting that might explain

809
00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:21,520
Speaker 1: why some of the stuff is going on. So one

810
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:24,520
Speaker 1: of the reasons that okay, so if these guys get

811
00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:28,640
Speaker 1: out in there immediately captured, Remember that this is just

812
00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:32,239
Speaker 1: about the time that the Paris Piece Accords have gone

813
00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:35,960
Speaker 1: into effect, and one of the how god, it's not

814
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:39,320
Speaker 1: a stipulation, but one of the articles of the accords

815
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:44,319
Speaker 1: is that prisoners of war will be returned and the

816
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:48,840
Speaker 1: bodies of the dead shall be repatriated. You shall send

817
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:53,080
Speaker 1: them home. Both sides should be doing this, Okay, So

818
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:56,400
Speaker 1: this is this is what everybody wants to have happened.

819
00:47:57,120 --> 00:48:01,920
Speaker 1: So if that's the case, and suddenly the US screws

820
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:06,520
Speaker 1: the pooge and drops a plane in the jungle, proving

821
00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 1: that it's doing what it's not supposed to do, you

822
00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:14,200
Speaker 1: want to allow that to jeopardize the return of all

823
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:16,600
Speaker 1: those other guys. In other words, are you willing to

824
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:22,160
Speaker 1: forfeit these four for the other hundreds, if not thousands,

825
00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:25,160
Speaker 1: and and and just to be clear, this is not

826
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:30,120
Speaker 1: you talking. This is what the People the Theory says. Yeah,

827
00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:32,480
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously we're not saying. It's that it's the

828
00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:36,120
Speaker 1: trolley can un drum, right, do you sacrifice You've got

829
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:37,920
Speaker 1: the one person on the tracks that you care about

830
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:41,360
Speaker 1: in the twenty people the no on the on the

831
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:43,160
Speaker 1: other track, and do you like throw the switch. I

832
00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:47,600
Speaker 1: don't know. It's a good question, especially on the possibility, right,

833
00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:50,799
Speaker 1: it's not even it's not even uh we know for

834
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:53,480
Speaker 1: sure they're alive. It's a we think they might be live.

835
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:56,360
Speaker 1: So are we going to sacrifice? Are we going to

836
00:48:56,440 --> 00:48:59,200
Speaker 1: get caught doing this thing? Or or are we going

837
00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 1: to get our you know, thousands of POWs back like

838
00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:06,440
Speaker 1: which is but yeah, I mean, you know what, I

839
00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:09,560
Speaker 1: know what you're saying. Yeah, though the you know, I

840
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:11,960
Speaker 1: don't think this thing would really would have jeopardized that.

841
00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:14,200
Speaker 1: That's one problem I have with this series that oh yeah,

842
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:15,680
Speaker 1: I know, there's a lot of problems. What the what

843
00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:18,120
Speaker 1: the US was doing over loud. So's what recon and

844
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:20,759
Speaker 1: all that stuff was not actually without actually wrong and

845
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:23,239
Speaker 1: really in violation of the accords anyway. I mean, well,

846
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:25,920
Speaker 1: I think they were supposed to be stopping all missions.

847
00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:29,279
Speaker 1: And this is to me when I read this, it's

848
00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:34,680
Speaker 1: a pretty blatant violation of stop what you're doing. Just

849
00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:38,480
Speaker 1: where all things, I mean, like everybody is out, quit

850
00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:41,680
Speaker 1: doing it, send everybody home. And here's all these guys

851
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:44,879
Speaker 1: at this air base that are still flying as if

852
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:48,000
Speaker 1: nothing happened. It was just eight guys going for a

853
00:49:48,040 --> 00:49:51,720
Speaker 1: plane ride. Well, this was this was one of many, many,

854
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:56,120
Speaker 1: many planes that the US had in the air, which

855
00:49:56,160 --> 00:49:58,040
Speaker 1: is why you don't that not that they know of

856
00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:00,880
Speaker 1: it's just the one. Well, but they do because it

857
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:03,640
Speaker 1: could be communication because of the fact that I mean,

858
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:08,880
Speaker 1: think about this, So the Vietnamese or the Larations, they're

859
00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:12,760
Speaker 1: shooting at these airplanes that they see overhead because because

860
00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:15,239
Speaker 1: they're not supposed to be there, and they know they

861
00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:17,480
Speaker 1: can't get in trouble for shooting one down because it's

862
00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:19,880
Speaker 1: not supposed to be there in the first place. So

863
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:23,360
Speaker 1: you're gonna deny it. And that is why people also

864
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:26,160
Speaker 1: say that because the government knew that they shouldn't have

865
00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:31,440
Speaker 1: had that plane in the air, they so hurriedly changed

866
00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:34,200
Speaker 1: the status from m I A to k I A

867
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:37,480
Speaker 1: because they realized that they got their hand caught the

868
00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:40,919
Speaker 1: cookie jar. And you you you know, like you said,

869
00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:43,400
Speaker 1: it's that's that same conundrum. This is the problem I

870
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:46,560
Speaker 1: have with that explanation, though, is that is that you know,

871
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:48,320
Speaker 1: the U. S. Government didn't really get caught with his

872
00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:50,680
Speaker 1: hand in the cookie jar, just there's a ceasefire, which

873
00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:53,319
Speaker 1: means you stopped shooting at each other. It doesn't mean.

874
00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:55,880
Speaker 1: It doesn't mean that you stop paying attention to what

875
00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:58,960
Speaker 1: the other side is doing. I'm not gonna I'm not

876
00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:03,719
Speaker 1: gonna bait it. I felt I feel personally that I

877
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:06,840
Speaker 1: think it was in violation. But that's my personal thought,

878
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:10,600
Speaker 1: and I think that others may have felt that way

879
00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:14,080
Speaker 1: according to this theory. That's somebody else in in command.

880
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:17,400
Speaker 1: I was worried about the same thing. Yeah, yeah, but

881
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:19,319
Speaker 1: I think these people are wrong. But then you know,

882
00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:22,919
Speaker 1: but so let's keep moving forward, so we don't beat

883
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:25,840
Speaker 1: a dead horse. Oh yeah, let's not do that. Let's

884
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:29,759
Speaker 1: move into what. I don't even know how to classify

885
00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:33,000
Speaker 1: this next bit because it's it's kind of theory related,

886
00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:38,560
Speaker 1: and it's I called it modern hinky nous because they okay, okay,

887
00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:42,719
Speaker 1: so it's modern hinkiness. So okay, okay. So here's the thing.

888
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:46,520
Speaker 1: There's a piece of information that I haven't shared with

889
00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:49,759
Speaker 1: our listeners that I know, you two known, I know,

890
00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:54,840
Speaker 1: and that is that we went back to the crash

891
00:51:54,920 --> 00:51:59,120
Speaker 1: side of baron fifty two. It just took us twenty

892
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:03,319
Speaker 1: years to get Yeah, so well, in actually they went

893
00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:05,799
Speaker 1: ninety two and the Commission report came out in ninety three.

894
00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:08,160
Speaker 1: It took them like eighteen months apparently to get it

895
00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:12,920
Speaker 1: all figured out. But a Senate committee sent investigators to

896
00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:17,080
Speaker 1: the site, and when they got to that site, they

897
00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:21,960
Speaker 1: uncovered thirty one bone fragments and tooth fragment as well

898
00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:25,719
Speaker 1: as zippers and other bits of fight gear. Uh, there

899
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:29,640
Speaker 1: was four corroded revolvers, you know, the woods gone. The

900
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:31,880
Speaker 1: medal is all corroded up. You can see the photos

901
00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:35,840
Speaker 1: of these things online. They also found the d rings

902
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:40,560
Speaker 1: from eight parachutes. So they say that's evidence that the

903
00:52:40,640 --> 00:52:45,360
Speaker 1: men couldn't have gotten out. But to be fair, that

904
00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:48,000
Speaker 1: just means they probably didn't successfully make it to the ground.

905
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:51,200
Speaker 1: It doesn't mean they didn't out of the plane. These

906
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:53,880
Speaker 1: were in the crash site. So but I'm just saying,

907
00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:56,000
Speaker 1: like it just means they didn't take parachutes with them.

908
00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:59,680
Speaker 1: Doesn't mean they didn't. Oh yeah, they could have just

909
00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:02,520
Speaker 1: said see if they could fly on their own. Actually,

910
00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:06,520
Speaker 1: the parachutes a stored or they were stored in the

911
00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:09,040
Speaker 1: after the plane, right across the from the entrance store

912
00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:11,560
Speaker 1: and the entrance or exit, depending at your point of view.

913
00:53:12,320 --> 00:53:14,880
Speaker 1: And they were in a bin and there were places

914
00:53:15,239 --> 00:53:20,200
Speaker 1: in the bench for a dozen shoots. Yeah, like for yeah,

915
00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:23,120
Speaker 1: for twelve, might as four is a after all? Right, Well,

916
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:25,239
Speaker 1: but that's the thing is that if if indeed there's

917
00:53:25,239 --> 00:53:28,440
Speaker 1: only eight shoots, where's the d rings for the extras?

918
00:53:28,480 --> 00:53:32,160
Speaker 1: That's that's the question. Well that yeah, yeah, and so.

919
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:35,000
Speaker 1: But but I mean, to some people, the presence of

920
00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:37,600
Speaker 1: eight rings or d rings from eight parachutes proved that

921
00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:40,000
Speaker 1: they couldn't have jumped. I mean, to other people, it

922
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:43,719
Speaker 1: doesn't prove that at all. Right, No, no, you're not,

923
00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:46,400
Speaker 1: because people say they never went up with just the

924
00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:50,319
Speaker 1: minimum number. They always had extras just just in case.

925
00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:52,600
Speaker 1: Although you don't know, I mean that you know that

926
00:53:52,640 --> 00:53:54,560
Speaker 1: they might not have had, like you know, that a

927
00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:56,880
Speaker 1: full thing either. I don't know what I mean. They

928
00:53:56,960 --> 00:53:59,239
Speaker 1: might have only had ten in there. I don't know. Yeah, well,

929
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:02,000
Speaker 1: but but even it was only ten, that means they're

930
00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:06,319
Speaker 1: still short. But so they get to the site, they

931
00:54:06,360 --> 00:54:08,560
Speaker 1: find these d rings to prove that there was eight

932
00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:12,240
Speaker 1: parachutes on board the plane when it went down. There's

933
00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:15,880
Speaker 1: some other weird bits of hanky nous here, and that

934
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:18,080
Speaker 1: would be that one of the investigators, when he walked

935
00:54:18,120 --> 00:54:21,160
Speaker 1: onto the site. He said he literally looked down and

936
00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:24,640
Speaker 1: he found a dog tag sitting on the ground, exposed

937
00:54:24,680 --> 00:54:27,799
Speaker 1: to the elements, right in front of him, and that

938
00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:31,239
Speaker 1: belonged to Joe Matta Jov. The thing is is that

939
00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:35,000
Speaker 1: it was in pristine condition. Uh you know, I mean

940
00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:38,520
Speaker 1: it shouldn't have been. It had been there for twenty years.

941
00:54:38,560 --> 00:54:41,160
Speaker 1: It should have suffered some kind of ill effects of

942
00:54:41,160 --> 00:54:44,680
Speaker 1: the weather. I don't know. I guess there's some I

943
00:54:44,719 --> 00:54:46,839
Speaker 1: guess for me. You know, he could be saying, like,

944
00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:49,960
Speaker 1: and it was in pretty dang good condition. Have you

945
00:54:49,960 --> 00:54:53,279
Speaker 1: seen the photo of it? It was it actually pristine? Yeah,

946
00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:55,799
Speaker 1: it was in green condition. I mean I've seen dog

947
00:54:55,840 --> 00:54:59,960
Speaker 1: tags that guys war for years, you know, after combat mission,

948
00:55:00,360 --> 00:55:02,279
Speaker 1: you know, guys do that. They just always wear their

949
00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:06,279
Speaker 1: dog tags. And they were dirty and scarred and beat up,

950
00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:08,480
Speaker 1: and they looked worse than the ones I saw in

951
00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:11,520
Speaker 1: this photo. We didn't see very much compact. So playing

952
00:55:11,520 --> 00:55:13,960
Speaker 1: a practical joke on these guys, Well, that's actually a

953
00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:17,839
Speaker 1: really good point because it is not an unknown thing

954
00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:22,680
Speaker 1: for people to see or figure out that families of

955
00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:25,040
Speaker 1: men who are m I A Are coming to the

956
00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:29,919
Speaker 1: area and fabric hate dog tags to sell to them.

957
00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:34,680
Speaker 1: So that's not an uncommon thing, but the other not so.

958
00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:40,680
Speaker 1: On the level bit here is supposedly these guys were

959
00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:44,600
Speaker 1: they were flying a sanitized mission, meaning that they shouldn't

960
00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:47,080
Speaker 1: have had their dog tags on and they shouldn't have

961
00:55:47,120 --> 00:55:52,640
Speaker 1: had any kind of recognizable insignias on their flight suits.

962
00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:57,000
Speaker 1: Have a question the hand, then, how did they identify

963
00:55:57,080 --> 00:55:59,440
Speaker 1: the four pilots? How do they know that was who

964
00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:01,680
Speaker 1: they were? Were their positions in the I believe it

965
00:56:01,719 --> 00:56:04,560
Speaker 1: was the positions in the plane. Okay, believe that. But

966
00:56:04,880 --> 00:56:07,080
Speaker 1: so that is the way they identified them based on

967
00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:10,200
Speaker 1: their stations. Yes, so, for all we know, the rare

968
00:56:10,280 --> 00:56:14,839
Speaker 1: endman could have been taking those positions, possibly realistically, just

969
00:56:14,880 --> 00:56:17,279
Speaker 1: to be a totally slam slam into the ground and

970
00:56:17,640 --> 00:56:19,799
Speaker 1: the four in the front or ejected right out the

971
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:23,000
Speaker 1: glass windshields in the front and the four just right

972
00:56:23,040 --> 00:56:26,440
Speaker 1: into the perfect No. But I just mean, you know,

973
00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:28,279
Speaker 1: for all we know, the people who bailed out were

974
00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:32,600
Speaker 1: the pilots, right, I mean, if I agree, I'm just

975
00:56:34,320 --> 00:56:37,239
Speaker 1: I get it. And yes, okay, I see you know

976
00:56:37,280 --> 00:56:39,040
Speaker 1: they get hit and they say, hey, you guys come

977
00:56:39,080 --> 00:56:41,800
Speaker 1: forward to take the controls. We've all got to go

978
00:56:41,840 --> 00:56:45,760
Speaker 1: to the bathroom. We'll be right, there's out this door. Sorry,

979
00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:52,320
Speaker 1: this is in the bathroom. Um. Yeah. But it's weird

980
00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:55,200
Speaker 1: that if they were supposed to be flying a sanitized mission,

981
00:56:55,280 --> 00:56:58,920
Speaker 1: that this dog tag was there. Oh yeah, so that's

982
00:56:58,960 --> 00:57:02,120
Speaker 1: that's weird. The other thing that's weird is that the

983
00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:07,600
Speaker 1: bone fragments that were all recovered, they couldn't really identify

984
00:57:07,719 --> 00:57:10,000
Speaker 1: them to anyone, because I kid you not, they were

985
00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:13,720
Speaker 1: literally fragments. They couldn't even prove that they were human.

986
00:57:14,080 --> 00:57:17,640
Speaker 1: You would kind of expect that you would after twenty

987
00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:22,120
Speaker 1: years and in that situation, but they said that they couldn't.

988
00:57:22,400 --> 00:57:24,960
Speaker 1: They didn't know. It's not that they said they couldn't,

989
00:57:25,320 --> 00:57:28,000
Speaker 1: they said they didn't want to run d n A

990
00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:31,400
Speaker 1: analysis at the time. This is so of course, technologies

991
00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:34,840
Speaker 1: made leaps and bounds since then, but they didn't run

992
00:57:34,960 --> 00:57:37,960
Speaker 1: d n A on them, so they couldn't confirm who

993
00:57:38,120 --> 00:57:42,000
Speaker 1: or what it was. The other weird thing is that

994
00:57:42,120 --> 00:57:45,640
Speaker 1: I mentioned that they found a tooth or a partial

995
00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:50,760
Speaker 1: Mohler on site. Well, that moler they matched it up

996
00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:55,800
Speaker 1: to Peter Trestman. Here's the odd thing is that when

997
00:57:56,240 --> 00:57:59,680
Speaker 1: the the U. S. Air Force came to Peter Crestman's

998
00:57:59,720 --> 00:58:03,360
Speaker 1: family and said, hey, this is this is Peter's Moehler

999
00:58:03,800 --> 00:58:06,920
Speaker 1: and we have these X rays of his teeth to

1000
00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:10,440
Speaker 1: prove it. They showed them X rays of a full

1001
00:58:10,480 --> 00:58:12,760
Speaker 1: set of teeth on the top and a full set

1002
00:58:12,800 --> 00:58:16,400
Speaker 1: of teeth on the bottom. The problem is, Peter Crestman

1003
00:58:16,520 --> 00:58:20,200
Speaker 1: didn't have all of his teeth. He was missing teeth.

1004
00:58:20,280 --> 00:58:23,720
Speaker 1: He had to wear a partial. So whose X ray

1005
00:58:23,840 --> 00:58:27,640
Speaker 1: is that that they used to match the tooth to

1006
00:58:29,080 --> 00:58:30,640
Speaker 1: It could have been it could have been a mistake

1007
00:58:30,720 --> 00:58:32,880
Speaker 1: or a fraud, or are they sure it wasn't just

1008
00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:35,520
Speaker 1: an earlier X ray before he got partial. I believe

1009
00:58:35,680 --> 00:58:39,200
Speaker 1: that before he went in to service, he already had that.

1010
00:58:40,280 --> 00:58:41,760
Speaker 1: And if the partial was in his mouth when the

1011
00:58:41,920 --> 00:58:44,960
Speaker 1: x ratium, it would be very obvious because the partial

1012
00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:48,360
Speaker 1: has metal. The X ray was not from from previously.

1013
00:58:48,440 --> 00:58:51,240
Speaker 1: They didn't they didn't like contact family dentists back home,

1014
00:58:51,320 --> 00:58:54,600
Speaker 1: and everything that I have read says that that was

1015
00:58:54,680 --> 00:58:57,200
Speaker 1: not the case. That it was. The military had those

1016
00:58:57,400 --> 00:58:59,400
Speaker 1: X rays. It was there, you know, x rays he

1017
00:58:59,400 --> 00:59:02,040
Speaker 1: took in the military. But this is so here's the

1018
00:59:02,080 --> 00:59:04,480
Speaker 1: thing though, and this is I know this infuriates the

1019
00:59:04,520 --> 00:59:08,280
Speaker 1: families with the all of the armed forces. Okay, I'm

1020
00:59:08,280 --> 00:59:11,000
Speaker 1: not just gonna point at the Air Force here, but

1021
00:59:11,240 --> 00:59:15,800
Speaker 1: all of the armed forces over the years have seriously

1022
00:59:15,960 --> 00:59:20,680
Speaker 1: dropped the ball when it came to identifying recovered remains

1023
00:59:20,720 --> 00:59:25,080
Speaker 1: of soldiers killed in action. There are times where they

1024
00:59:25,120 --> 00:59:29,920
Speaker 1: have sent parts to a family and then realized that, wait,

1025
00:59:30,080 --> 00:59:32,360
Speaker 1: they sent I'm just gonna make up names here. Okay,

1026
00:59:32,600 --> 00:59:37,520
Speaker 1: they they said Bob's remains in place of Don's remains,

1027
00:59:37,880 --> 00:59:42,600
Speaker 1: But Don's remains are actually in Tim's grave, and they

1028
00:59:42,680 --> 00:59:46,600
Speaker 1: don't actually know where Don or the first guy's remains are.

1029
00:59:46,760 --> 00:59:49,919
Speaker 1: But the third guy's grave is actually filled with somebody else.

1030
00:59:50,120 --> 00:59:53,600
Speaker 1: And it's it's this weird, and there's no easy way

1031
00:59:53,600 --> 00:59:55,520
Speaker 1: to fix it, because what do you do go to

1032
00:59:55,600 --> 00:59:58,000
Speaker 1: family and say, we screwed up. We need to exhume

1033
00:59:58,200 --> 01:00:03,680
Speaker 1: your loved one and you have found closure, and now sorry,

1034
01:00:03,760 --> 01:00:06,280
Speaker 1: we gotta take it away because we were wrong. No,

1035
01:00:06,480 --> 01:00:08,240
Speaker 1: you don't, you don't do that. I would think that

1036
01:00:08,280 --> 01:00:10,320
Speaker 1: they would just, you know, like there's been cases like that.

1037
01:00:10,480 --> 01:00:12,400
Speaker 1: I would just quietly move the bones and not tell

1038
01:00:12,440 --> 01:00:15,280
Speaker 1: the family my son out there. But it just it

1039
01:00:15,440 --> 01:00:17,160
Speaker 1: was gonna say a couple of things number one, they

1040
01:00:17,200 --> 01:00:20,120
Speaker 1: do screw up a lot. On the other hand, in

1041
01:00:20,480 --> 01:00:23,280
Speaker 1: circumstances like that, I could see where you could do that.

1042
01:00:23,800 --> 01:00:26,680
Speaker 1: But they also still seem to actually still be working

1043
01:00:26,720 --> 01:00:28,400
Speaker 1: on this. I mean, they actually are devoting a lot

1044
01:00:28,400 --> 01:00:32,680
Speaker 1: of resources to trying to straighten everything out, identify everybody

1045
01:00:33,200 --> 01:00:35,480
Speaker 1: to the best that they can, and they are trying.

1046
01:00:35,560 --> 01:00:39,600
Speaker 1: Now yeah, well, I say, if you, if you listen

1047
01:00:39,760 --> 01:00:43,240
Speaker 1: to the families, then they say, no, they're not trying,

1048
01:00:43,400 --> 01:00:46,680
Speaker 1: and they're just they're trying to cover it all up.

1049
01:00:46,960 --> 01:00:49,120
Speaker 1: I mean, this is this is all a matter of perspective.

1050
01:00:49,320 --> 01:00:52,800
Speaker 1: And I get that because if if you you know,

1051
01:00:52,880 --> 01:00:57,000
Speaker 1: these families came into this situation expecting things to be

1052
01:00:57,080 --> 01:00:59,280
Speaker 1: one way and to be given all of the information,

1053
01:00:59,560 --> 01:01:03,640
Speaker 1: and they feel like they've been jerked around for decades,

1054
01:01:04,680 --> 01:01:08,560
Speaker 1: that's bound to build up a lot of resentment. So

1055
01:01:08,720 --> 01:01:11,760
Speaker 1: you can see where all these families get together. I

1056
01:01:11,760 --> 01:01:14,320
Speaker 1: mean I read an article somewhere and somebody said, when

1057
01:01:14,320 --> 01:01:16,800
Speaker 1: you read one of these, you think, well, the family

1058
01:01:16,920 --> 01:01:18,880
Speaker 1: is crazy and nothing is going on. And then when

1059
01:01:18,920 --> 01:01:20,920
Speaker 1: you talk to five or ten families and they all

1060
01:01:20,960 --> 01:01:23,600
Speaker 1: tell you the same story, you start to wonder what

1061
01:01:23,840 --> 01:01:28,440
Speaker 1: actually is going on? Is there some kind of something

1062
01:01:28,600 --> 01:01:32,080
Speaker 1: in the background, some plan that we don't know about,

1063
01:01:32,240 --> 01:01:34,680
Speaker 1: and it's a game that somebody else is playing. We

1064
01:01:34,800 --> 01:01:38,160
Speaker 1: just don't know the rules to. I mean, it's it

1065
01:01:38,240 --> 01:01:39,960
Speaker 1: leaves a bad taste in your mouth. Well, I think

1066
01:01:39,960 --> 01:01:43,000
Speaker 1: there was a little bit of irresponsibility on the parts

1067
01:01:43,000 --> 01:01:44,640
Speaker 1: of some people, though, like you know, a lot of

1068
01:01:44,640 --> 01:01:47,520
Speaker 1: people really kept the story alive and kept the families

1069
01:01:47,720 --> 01:01:50,880
Speaker 1: excited and interested in the whole thing. When you know,

1070
01:01:51,000 --> 01:01:53,600
Speaker 1: my opinion, there's there's not a single shred of evidence

1071
01:01:53,640 --> 01:01:57,040
Speaker 1: that that they survived the plane crash. Would that there's

1072
01:01:57,080 --> 01:01:59,880
Speaker 1: not not one shred of evidence. I want a single one.

1073
01:02:00,480 --> 01:02:03,520
Speaker 1: I would say that the missing jump door is to

1074
01:02:03,640 --> 01:02:06,280
Speaker 1: me a shred of evidence that it's not. To me

1075
01:02:06,360 --> 01:02:11,600
Speaker 1: it is, but the wings. Here's the real reason the

1076
01:02:11,600 --> 01:02:15,760
Speaker 1: door was probably gone is that it's very possible that

1077
01:02:15,800 --> 01:02:18,120
Speaker 1: it blew out in midflight when they were hit. I

1078
01:02:18,160 --> 01:02:22,200
Speaker 1: get that, Joe. Actually the jump door, the parador, the

1079
01:02:22,240 --> 01:02:24,160
Speaker 1: part that the paratroop door or whatever they call it.

1080
01:02:24,600 --> 01:02:27,800
Speaker 1: Actually in Southeast Asia on those on those planes, the

1081
01:02:27,840 --> 01:02:30,240
Speaker 1: crews removed those all the time, and they flew without

1082
01:02:30,280 --> 01:02:33,040
Speaker 1: them all the time because it was so hot there

1083
01:02:33,120 --> 01:02:34,880
Speaker 1: that was one way to keep it kind of keep

1084
01:02:34,880 --> 01:02:36,880
Speaker 1: it cool in the plane. But these years you are

1085
01:02:36,880 --> 01:02:40,800
Speaker 1: flying at nights. An issue. But the other thing about

1086
01:02:40,880 --> 01:02:43,240
Speaker 1: these planes, well it may or may not be an issue.

1087
01:02:43,240 --> 01:02:46,000
Speaker 1: I mean, it may well be that particular bird they

1088
01:02:46,120 --> 01:02:48,720
Speaker 1: pulled that door off months before, or even a year

1089
01:02:48,760 --> 01:02:50,880
Speaker 1: or two before, and nobody even knew where the damn

1090
01:02:50,920 --> 01:02:53,040
Speaker 1: door was anymore, so it couldn't even put it back.

1091
01:02:53,280 --> 01:02:56,360
Speaker 1: They typically flew without those doors in place. You know,

1092
01:02:56,400 --> 01:02:58,520
Speaker 1: I've read, I've read a lot of stuff from airman

1093
01:02:58,560 --> 01:03:00,480
Speaker 1: who said that the doors were there, but they always

1094
01:03:00,560 --> 01:03:04,400
Speaker 1: left them unlocked so they could get out faster. Which

1095
01:03:04,880 --> 01:03:08,080
Speaker 1: but but to me, there's there's absolutely no reason to

1096
01:03:08,080 --> 01:03:10,720
Speaker 1: put a lot of any weight whatsoever on that door

1097
01:03:10,760 --> 01:03:14,680
Speaker 1: being missing. The search and rescue team reported that that

1098
01:03:14,760 --> 01:03:18,680
Speaker 1: the parachutes were gone, well, of course, but they couldn't

1099
01:03:18,720 --> 01:03:21,160
Speaker 1: report those were gone because they didn't go into the plane. No. No,

1100
01:03:21,320 --> 01:03:22,880
Speaker 1: you can see you can see under the plane by

1101
01:03:22,920 --> 01:03:25,120
Speaker 1: looking through the door, because the band that holds the

1102
01:03:25,160 --> 01:03:27,360
Speaker 1: parachutes is right across from the door and in the

1103
01:03:27,400 --> 01:03:30,440
Speaker 1: fuselage of the plane. Which and every every account that

1104
01:03:30,480 --> 01:03:33,680
Speaker 1: I have read, the rear door, the entry exit door,

1105
01:03:33,760 --> 01:03:35,760
Speaker 1: the main actually exit door. They're they're right across the

1106
01:03:35,840 --> 01:03:38,480
Speaker 1: jump door. Yeah, they jumped, They're right across, and that

1107
01:03:38,640 --> 01:03:41,600
Speaker 1: every every account that I have read of this, the

1108
01:03:41,640 --> 01:03:45,240
Speaker 1: search and rescue team reported that the door was missing.

1109
01:03:45,400 --> 01:03:48,960
Speaker 1: They also reported that the parachutes were missing. But the

1110
01:03:49,000 --> 01:03:51,600
Speaker 1: thing about it is, and so that's considered to be

1111
01:03:51,720 --> 01:03:54,320
Speaker 1: a piece of evidence to support the idea that they

1112
01:03:54,400 --> 01:03:57,320
Speaker 1: jumped out of the plane seeing nothing that I've I've

1113
01:03:57,400 --> 01:04:00,520
Speaker 1: really seen, has ever given any good in occasion that

1114
01:04:00,560 --> 01:04:02,120
Speaker 1: they were in that portion of the plane to be

1115
01:04:02,120 --> 01:04:06,160
Speaker 1: able to identify that. My point is, they said they

1116
01:04:06,200 --> 01:04:09,160
Speaker 1: didn't go into the rear of the plane, so therefore

1117
01:04:09,880 --> 01:04:14,720
Speaker 1: it's just not a for certain which is why I'm

1118
01:04:14,800 --> 01:04:19,120
Speaker 1: not willing to just say, no, they didn't see them,

1119
01:04:19,200 --> 01:04:21,360
Speaker 1: but they didn't, you know, crawl through the body of

1120
01:04:21,360 --> 01:04:23,440
Speaker 1: the plane. That's That's where I'm getting at here, and

1121
01:04:23,480 --> 01:04:26,720
Speaker 1: that's why I'm not completely opposed to it. Yeah, and so,

1122
01:04:27,280 --> 01:04:29,480
Speaker 1: but my understanding was, or at least the way it's

1123
01:04:29,520 --> 01:04:32,640
Speaker 1: been written, and the search and rescue team reported that

1124
01:04:32,720 --> 01:04:35,560
Speaker 1: the parachutes were missing, they were gone. There is some

1125
01:04:35,840 --> 01:04:39,400
Speaker 1: remportant that says that, but there's also reporting that said

1126
01:04:39,440 --> 01:04:42,720
Speaker 1: that's what I said earlier is that there's also when

1127
01:04:42,760 --> 01:04:45,240
Speaker 1: you read it, there's stuff that says that they never

1128
01:04:45,280 --> 01:04:49,080
Speaker 1: went back there. So that's why I don't completely believe it,

1129
01:04:49,120 --> 01:04:51,040
Speaker 1: as we see this all the time where stories are

1130
01:04:51,080 --> 01:04:55,320
Speaker 1: inflated in sentences and actions are added to it. Oh yeah,

1131
01:04:55,360 --> 01:04:58,760
Speaker 1: for sure. But but yeah, but this is used at

1132
01:04:58,840 --> 01:05:02,440
Speaker 1: least by some people in this little conspiracy as theory

1133
01:05:02,560 --> 01:05:06,320
Speaker 1: as evidence the parachutes were missing. You know, they were

1134
01:05:06,320 --> 01:05:08,680
Speaker 1: reported as being missing. Whether they actually were or not

1135
01:05:08,920 --> 01:05:10,760
Speaker 1: is beside the point. I mean, that's what these people

1136
01:05:11,040 --> 01:05:14,200
Speaker 1: are all saying. They're saying the parachutes were gone, therefore

1137
01:05:14,200 --> 01:05:17,680
Speaker 1: they must have jumped, right. The point is, of course

1138
01:05:17,680 --> 01:05:19,400
Speaker 1: the parachutes were gone. They were just in a bin.

1139
01:05:19,600 --> 01:05:22,480
Speaker 1: I mean they just fell out. And you know, so

1140
01:05:22,520 --> 01:05:25,680
Speaker 1: of course they were not so they could have fallen out,

1141
01:05:25,720 --> 01:05:29,720
Speaker 1: they could have been incinerated in the fire. I'm not

1142
01:05:29,800 --> 01:05:34,160
Speaker 1: saying that the parachutes couldn't come out all. I'm just again,

1143
01:05:34,640 --> 01:05:37,600
Speaker 1: I just don't feel like anybody laid eyes on them.

1144
01:05:37,600 --> 01:05:40,440
Speaker 1: Can I propose a new theory? Sure, it's not some

1145
01:05:40,720 --> 01:05:45,840
Speaker 1: vast conspiracy, it's just general incompetence could have been and

1146
01:05:46,000 --> 01:05:48,320
Speaker 1: that like at this point, the military is trying to

1147
01:05:48,400 --> 01:05:52,040
Speaker 1: make good on the mistakes and laziness of their forefathers.

1148
01:05:52,400 --> 01:05:54,920
Speaker 1: It could be that well, and they did try to

1149
01:05:55,000 --> 01:05:58,280
Speaker 1: do right by these men when they went back and

1150
01:05:58,320 --> 01:06:01,400
Speaker 1: they investigated the crash site. They did bring all of

1151
01:06:01,440 --> 01:06:05,000
Speaker 1: those remains back, They did put them into a shared

1152
01:06:05,120 --> 01:06:08,800
Speaker 1: grave site at Arlington National Cemetery. They did hold a

1153
01:06:08,920 --> 01:06:12,959
Speaker 1: service for him. So they are trying to do what

1154
01:06:13,000 --> 01:06:16,120
Speaker 1: they can to recognize and honor them, and not for nothing,

1155
01:06:16,720 --> 01:06:18,800
Speaker 1: because I know if it were my family, I would

1156
01:06:18,840 --> 01:06:22,200
Speaker 1: be piste and like need to know more. But when

1157
01:06:22,240 --> 01:06:24,080
Speaker 1: it comes down to it, how many people are in

1158
01:06:24,080 --> 01:06:31,160
Speaker 1: our military right now or even then, I'm a lot

1159
01:06:31,640 --> 01:06:36,560
Speaker 1: so and we're talking about four men, right And I

1160
01:06:37,680 --> 01:06:41,439
Speaker 1: totally understand, like from the family perspective, I don't want

1161
01:06:41,440 --> 01:06:44,080
Speaker 1: to say we shouldn't blah, But at the end of

1162
01:06:44,120 --> 01:06:48,280
Speaker 1: the day, it's like it's for four people who probably died.

1163
01:06:48,640 --> 01:06:52,640
Speaker 1: Because you've seen the pictures, it probably died. And you know,

1164
01:06:52,680 --> 01:06:54,680
Speaker 1: at some point, I'm sure the military just kind of

1165
01:06:54,720 --> 01:06:56,840
Speaker 1: was like, we have so many other things going on,

1166
01:06:56,920 --> 01:06:59,680
Speaker 1: we cannot like, we can't have resources going into this.

1167
01:06:59,720 --> 01:07:01,880
Speaker 1: We've out to go. We just have to walk away

1168
01:07:01,920 --> 01:07:04,520
Speaker 1: from it, and then twenty years later they're trying, they're

1169
01:07:04,560 --> 01:07:06,919
Speaker 1: trying to make it well, yeah, and this is now,

1170
01:07:06,960 --> 01:07:10,440
Speaker 1: this is twenty years on since that happened, but that

1171
01:07:10,480 --> 01:07:12,760
Speaker 1: would be mine, you know. There we've been a whole

1172
01:07:12,800 --> 01:07:14,880
Speaker 1: bunch of other conflicts, so they've got a whole other

1173
01:07:15,320 --> 01:07:18,400
Speaker 1: slew of hot potatoes on their hands to try and

1174
01:07:18,600 --> 01:07:20,520
Speaker 1: deal with. They're still looking at stuff like that. But

1175
01:07:20,680 --> 01:07:23,280
Speaker 1: that's what's what's really. It is sad though, that people

1176
01:07:23,560 --> 01:07:25,920
Speaker 1: there are I've read these stories of these families, of

1177
01:07:25,960 --> 01:07:28,280
Speaker 1: these people that have been trying for years. I mean,

1178
01:07:28,280 --> 01:07:31,320
Speaker 1: they still feel that their their loved ones are probably missing.

1179
01:07:31,360 --> 01:07:33,080
Speaker 1: And I look at the story and it seems to

1180
01:07:33,120 --> 01:07:36,080
Speaker 1: be glaringly obvious that there's no way in hell that

1181
01:07:36,160 --> 01:07:38,960
Speaker 1: they that they actually didn't die in that plane crash.

1182
01:07:39,680 --> 01:07:41,640
Speaker 1: And it's sad that these people have spent all this

1183
01:07:41,720 --> 01:07:44,280
Speaker 1: time and kind of, you know, let their lives be

1184
01:07:44,320 --> 01:07:47,080
Speaker 1: consumed by this and you then that's the difference is

1185
01:07:47,320 --> 01:07:51,760
Speaker 1: you don't have the emotional attachment or why, and so

1186
01:07:51,920 --> 01:07:55,120
Speaker 1: sometimes that makes it easy to make a quick decision.

1187
01:07:55,200 --> 01:07:58,640
Speaker 1: And people have possibly been a little bit misled by

1188
01:07:58,840 --> 01:08:02,760
Speaker 1: you know, some I don't know some parties. Some parties,

1189
01:08:03,080 --> 01:08:06,000
Speaker 1: they've been a little bit mislad um, so it's kind

1190
01:08:06,000 --> 01:08:08,720
Speaker 1: of sad. But yeah, I don't all right, I think

1191
01:08:08,760 --> 01:08:10,880
Speaker 1: those guys all die that alight, no doubt about it.

1192
01:08:10,920 --> 01:08:13,120
Speaker 1: Let's go ahead and wrap this up. Well no, no, no,

1193
01:08:13,200 --> 01:08:16,200
Speaker 1: let's go on. No, I think it's way too hot

1194
01:08:16,240 --> 01:08:21,200
Speaker 1: to keep going. Oh yeah, alright. Well, if you want

1195
01:08:21,280 --> 01:08:24,400
Speaker 1: to read some of the links about this particular episode,

1196
01:08:24,560 --> 01:08:27,560
Speaker 1: or any episode, you can find that on our website,

1197
01:08:27,800 --> 01:08:31,040
Speaker 1: which is Thinking Sideways podcast dot com. And there, of

1198
01:08:31,040 --> 01:08:33,760
Speaker 1: course you can listen to any past episode as well

1199
01:08:33,800 --> 01:08:37,519
Speaker 1: as download them. Uh. There's also links for merchandise as

1200
01:08:37,560 --> 01:08:40,680
Speaker 1: well as our past episode list. There's an actually an

1201
01:08:40,800 --> 01:08:43,320
Speaker 1: entire page that's got them all in a searchable version

1202
01:08:43,400 --> 01:08:46,439
Speaker 1: format for you. There. Um, for those of you who

1203
01:08:46,520 --> 01:08:49,519
Speaker 1: are downloading somewhere else, which most of you are, you're

1204
01:08:49,680 --> 01:08:52,320
Speaker 1: downloading or streaming. If you're downloading and you're doing that

1205
01:08:52,439 --> 01:08:55,680
Speaker 1: from something like iTunes, and you're able to leave a

1206
01:08:55,720 --> 01:08:58,920
Speaker 1: comment and a rating, please do we appreciate that because

1207
01:08:58,920 --> 01:09:01,559
Speaker 1: that allows other people to find the show. If you're

1208
01:09:01,680 --> 01:09:06,599
Speaker 1: streaming through like Google Play or Stitcher or what other

1209
01:09:06,680 --> 01:09:10,200
Speaker 1: platform it might be. If that platform allows you to

1210
01:09:10,240 --> 01:09:13,120
Speaker 1: do comments and ratings. Please do so. We we appreciate

1211
01:09:13,200 --> 01:09:16,719
Speaker 1: that we're on social media. So we are on Twitter,

1212
01:09:16,840 --> 01:09:20,519
Speaker 1: we're Thinking Sideways without the G in the middle. We

1213
01:09:20,600 --> 01:09:23,559
Speaker 1: are on sub We've got a subreddit, but say we're

1214
01:09:23,560 --> 01:09:26,320
Speaker 1: on subreddit, but we have a subreddit. Uh. And then

1215
01:09:26,360 --> 01:09:29,639
Speaker 1: of course we have the Facebook page and the Facebook groups,

1216
01:09:29,680 --> 01:09:33,400
Speaker 1: so like the page, joined the group. It's always pretty busy,

1217
01:09:33,400 --> 01:09:37,000
Speaker 1: always good conversations taking place. Um. And if you last

1218
01:09:37,040 --> 01:09:40,439
Speaker 1: but not least, if you have comments or questions or

1219
01:09:40,920 --> 01:09:44,240
Speaker 1: story suggestions, all of that stuff, you can always go

1220
01:09:44,280 --> 01:09:47,920
Speaker 1: ahead and email that to us at Thinking Sideways Podcast

1221
01:09:48,240 --> 01:09:51,880
Speaker 1: at gmail dot com. We respond to everything. Might take

1222
01:09:51,960 --> 01:09:55,080
Speaker 1: us a while because the inboxes appears to be constantly

1223
01:09:55,120 --> 01:09:59,080
Speaker 1: full these days, but we do get back, so please

1224
01:09:59,120 --> 01:10:02,640
Speaker 1: be patient with us. Uh. That having been said, you

1225
01:10:02,680 --> 01:10:07,599
Speaker 1: guys got anything else? Alright? Alright, well, we will wrap

1226
01:10:07,680 --> 01:10:10,840
Speaker 1: this one up and we will talk to everybody next week.

1227
01:10:11,760 --> 01:10:14,000
Speaker 1: Sky Train good point.