WEBVTT - "Happiness Is Like A Leaky Tire" from Immigrantly 0:00:15.476 --> 0:00:21.236 Pushkin, Hey, doctor Lori Santos. Here. This week, the Happiness 0:00:21.316 --> 0:00:24.116 Lab is bringing you a special crossover episode with the 0:00:24.156 --> 0:00:28.996 Immigrantly podcast. Immigrantly is hosted by Sadia Khan, a social 0:00:29.116 --> 0:00:32.116 entrepreneur and the founder of Immigrantly Media. She and I 0:00:32.156 --> 0:00:35.956 had an incredible conversation where we explored the origins of happiness. 0:00:36.476 --> 0:00:39.076 We talked about whether happiness is just a fleeting moment 0:00:39.356 --> 0:00:42.036 or whether we can sustain it over time. We also 0:00:42.116 --> 0:00:46.356 explored how our backgrounds, personalities, and choices shaped our perceptions 0:00:46.356 --> 0:00:49.636 of happiness. I really enjoyed the conversation, so I hope 0:00:49.636 --> 0:00:50.196 you do too. 0:00:57.356 --> 0:01:00.836 Hello and welcome to Immigrantly. I am Sadia A. Khan. 0:01:02.796 --> 0:01:06.516 This week on Immigrantly, I embark on a jamie into 0:01:06.556 --> 0:01:13.036 the fast, vibrant, and our predictable world of happiness. Is 0:01:13.076 --> 0:01:16.876 happiness a fleeting moment or a lasting state? Can it 0:01:16.956 --> 0:01:21.396 be actively pursued or is it intrinsic to human existence? 0:01:21.716 --> 0:01:26.716 How do our backgrounds, personalities and life choices shape our 0:01:26.796 --> 0:01:32.196 experiences of happiness? And what is this elusive state everyone 0:01:32.356 --> 0:01:36.676 seeks but seems hard to grasp consistently? And lastly, is 0:01:36.716 --> 0:01:41.676 happiness a universal language that transcends different lives and cultures, 0:01:41.996 --> 0:01:46.396 or is it as divis as the individuals seeking it? Yes, 0:01:46.756 --> 0:01:50.596 we will address all those questions and more in our 0:01:50.636 --> 0:01:56.116 today's episode. According to my today's guest Lauri Santos, a 0:01:56.236 --> 0:02:00.756 cognitive science and psychology professor at Yale, happiness isn't just 0:02:00.836 --> 0:02:04.196 an emotion you feel, but something that can be taught, 0:02:04.436 --> 0:02:08.076 almost like a muscle that can be worked out. Santos 0:02:08.196 --> 0:02:11.956 saw that his two dents were increasingly anxious and depressed 0:02:12.076 --> 0:02:15.156 and decided she wanted to give them some tools on 0:02:15.316 --> 0:02:18.196 not just how to be happy, but how they can 0:02:18.236 --> 0:02:24.156 make themselves happier using science. Her course, Psychology and the 0:02:24.196 --> 0:02:28.596 Good Life became the most popular course in Yale's history 0:02:28.796 --> 0:02:32.836 when it launched in twenty eighteen, with about one force 0:02:33.196 --> 0:02:37.596 of Yale's undergraduates enrolled in it. She's also the host 0:02:37.636 --> 0:02:43.436 of the Happiness Lab, which has over ninety million downloads. 0:02:43.796 --> 0:02:48.316 I'm honored to interview Laurie today, so let's get started. 0:03:11.636 --> 0:03:12.436 How are you doing. 0:03:12.676 --> 0:03:14.396 I'm good, I'm good. Thanks so much for having me 0:03:14.436 --> 0:03:14.876 on the show. 0:03:15.356 --> 0:03:16.996 How is your heart today? 0:03:17.316 --> 0:03:20.996 How's my heart today? My good friend from college was 0:03:21.036 --> 0:03:22.956 just in town this morning with her daughter. They're on 0:03:22.996 --> 0:03:25.756 a college tour, and so I just had breakfast with her, 0:03:25.956 --> 0:03:27.956 and so I think my heart isn't a warm place 0:03:27.996 --> 0:03:30.156 this morning. It's kind of nice. It's been a good day. 0:03:30.636 --> 0:03:33.596 I was at a friend's house yesterday and I told 0:03:33.636 --> 0:03:37.356 her about the interview and she was freaking out. She 0:03:37.516 --> 0:03:41.436 was like, Oh, my gosh, You're going to interview Laurie Santos. 0:03:41.436 --> 0:03:44.916 She was like, I listened to her podcast every single week. 0:03:45.636 --> 0:03:49.636 You've become very very popular. How are you handling it? 0:03:49.636 --> 0:03:51.756 It's good. I mean, it's really humbling, right to see 0:03:51.756 --> 0:03:54.676 the fact that sharing these strategies for improving happiness can 0:03:54.716 --> 0:03:56.276 really help people, right. I mean, that's one of the 0:03:56.316 --> 0:03:58.076 reasons I get into this. But it's so nice that 0:03:58.116 --> 0:04:01.236 it's actually working. I think a challenge of it is, 0:04:01.276 --> 0:04:03.996 really there's so many more demands on my time, right 0:04:03.996 --> 0:04:06.556 There's requests to give talks and podcasts and these things, 0:04:06.636 --> 0:04:08.636 and so I've had to be very careful about what 0:04:08.716 --> 0:04:10.876 I say yes to. And it's really a challenge to 0:04:10.876 --> 0:04:12.556 say no to things that are great, but to just 0:04:12.596 --> 0:04:14.876 say I have to protect my bandwidth. I have to 0:04:14.916 --> 0:04:17.476 prejet burnout, you know, And so that can be really tricky, 0:04:17.636 --> 0:04:20.276 but overall it's just been an incredible experience. 0:04:20.796 --> 0:04:24.436 Before we delve into the science of happiness, let's go 0:04:24.596 --> 0:04:27.356 back to your childhood. Can you talk a little bit 0:04:27.396 --> 0:04:30.556 about where you grew up and what are some of 0:04:30.596 --> 0:04:33.116 the happy memories from your childhood. 0:04:33.956 --> 0:04:37.996 Yeah, so I grew up in New Bedford, Massachusetts, which 0:04:38.036 --> 0:04:40.116 is a large working class down It used to be 0:04:40.116 --> 0:04:42.756 the richest town in America when whaling and those kind 0:04:42.756 --> 0:04:45.276 of things were going on, but nowadays they don't really 0:04:45.316 --> 0:04:47.956 have whaling as an industry, so it's been a kind 0:04:47.956 --> 0:04:50.276 of struggling town when I was growing up. But I had, 0:04:50.356 --> 0:04:53.716 you know, an incredibly happy family situation, at least for 0:04:53.836 --> 0:04:55.556 the kind of first part of my life. You know. 0:04:55.596 --> 0:04:58.116 I remember like we had a house that I would 0:04:58.116 --> 0:04:59.916 have a little yard that I could run around in 0:04:59.996 --> 0:05:02.836 and things. You know. My brother is four years younger 0:05:02.836 --> 0:05:04.836 than me, and he was a kind of constant playmate. 0:05:05.076 --> 0:05:07.196 You know. I had fun just kind of being a kid, 0:05:07.276 --> 0:05:10.756 being unscheduled, coming up with my own weird activities, whether 0:05:10.796 --> 0:05:12.916 that was like making up little games for me and 0:05:12.916 --> 0:05:15.716 my brother to play in the basement, to just kind 0:05:15.716 --> 0:05:18.316 of like creating and doing things. I feel like I 0:05:18.356 --> 0:05:20.996 wrote like lots of fake books, and you know, like 0:05:21.036 --> 0:05:23.036 this little kind of camera, so we would, you know, 0:05:23.116 --> 0:05:25.436 make little videos and things on it. And so I 0:05:25.476 --> 0:05:28.676 remember my childhood as being incredibly fun and incredibly creative. 0:05:30.196 --> 0:05:31.916 What were those fake books about? 0:05:32.156 --> 0:05:35.516 Well, I think they were kind of massively taken from 0:05:35.556 --> 0:05:37.276 some of the cartoons I watched. You know. One of 0:05:37.276 --> 0:05:39.316 them was called like the Cat and the Mouse, which 0:05:39.316 --> 0:05:42.436 I think was a basically plagiarized version of Tom and Jerry. 0:05:42.996 --> 0:05:44.956 I didn't never try to publish it, you know, so 0:05:44.996 --> 0:05:46.796 the plagiarism wasn't an issue, but it was kind of 0:05:46.916 --> 0:05:48.636 you know, drawing the pictures of the cat and the 0:05:48.676 --> 0:05:50.756 mouse and kind of coming up with these sort of 0:05:50.916 --> 0:05:53.676 fun stories and things and so yeah, so I kind 0:05:53.676 --> 0:05:56.116 of enjoyed doing all that stuff creatively. 0:05:56.036 --> 0:05:59.916 Very fast, while would do today. You are a professor. 0:06:00.196 --> 0:06:03.316 Why did you want to become a professor? What led 0:06:03.356 --> 0:06:04.236 you to that bath? 0:06:04.476 --> 0:06:06.956 Well, I've always been interested in psychology and sort of 0:06:06.956 --> 0:06:09.836 how people work, and I think growing up, I really 0:06:09.876 --> 0:06:12.316 just thought that the way you were a psychologist, as 0:06:12.316 --> 0:06:14.076 you were kind of a clinical psychologist, like you'd have 0:06:14.116 --> 0:06:15.956 to be a therapist or put people on a couch. 0:06:16.116 --> 0:06:18.116 But when I realized there was like this field where 0:06:18.116 --> 0:06:20.676 you could try to understand how the mind worked and 0:06:20.716 --> 0:06:23.476 how people fought, and that you could do research and publish, 0:06:23.676 --> 0:06:25.916 I was like, oh, man, this sounds amazing. And I 0:06:25.956 --> 0:06:28.476 really only learned that when I first started college. I 0:06:28.476 --> 0:06:30.996 had a great grad student mentor who kind of showed 0:06:30.996 --> 0:06:33.276 me the ropes and even honestly explained that like, you know, 0:06:33.316 --> 0:06:35.596 and actually, you know, many PhD programs like they don't 0:06:35.596 --> 0:06:37.516 even charge you, like you can go for free. You 0:06:37.556 --> 0:06:39.116 get your education for free. And I was like, wait, 0:06:39.116 --> 0:06:41.196 this is amazing. You know. It was kind of in 0:06:41.236 --> 0:06:43.636 that phase that I learned that being a professor was 0:06:43.676 --> 0:06:45.956 a possibility. What I really wanted to do was to 0:06:45.956 --> 0:06:48.116 find ways to study the mind, and I realized like, oh, 0:06:48.116 --> 0:06:49.596 this is a career where you could do that. 0:06:50.196 --> 0:06:54.196 From being a professor to being a professor of the 0:06:54.236 --> 0:06:59.196 most sought after class at Yale, tell me about that process. 0:06:59.636 --> 0:07:02.076 So I've been teaching at Yale for over two decades now, 0:07:02.116 --> 0:07:04.316 which makes me feel very very old. Honestly, the time 0:07:04.356 --> 0:07:06.356 goes by very fast, and for most of my time 0:07:06.356 --> 0:07:08.076 at Yale, I was, you know, a professor at the 0:07:08.156 --> 0:07:11.196 front of the classroom, taught classes about my research, which 0:07:11.236 --> 0:07:13.596 focused a lot on animals and what makes the human 0:07:13.636 --> 0:07:16.276 mind unique. And I thought college life was a lot 0:07:16.316 --> 0:07:18.596 like what college life was like when I was in college, 0:07:18.596 --> 0:07:21.076 which was fine and mostly happy. You know, there was 0:07:21.116 --> 0:07:23.956 some stresses, obviously, but it wasn't nearly as bad as 0:07:23.956 --> 0:07:25.476 the kind of thing we're seeing today. But I was 0:07:25.556 --> 0:07:27.956 kind of blind to really what young people are going 0:07:27.996 --> 0:07:30.076 through today. And then I took a new role on 0:07:30.156 --> 0:07:32.476 campus where I became what's called the head of college. 0:07:32.516 --> 0:07:35.236 And so heads of colleges at Yale are faculty who 0:07:35.316 --> 0:07:37.756 live on campus with students, and so I lived on 0:07:37.796 --> 0:07:39.556 campus with students, I ate with them at the dining 0:07:39.556 --> 0:07:41.196 hall and kind of hung out with them. And that 0:07:41.276 --> 0:07:43.276 was when I really first started to see the college 0:07:43.276 --> 0:07:46.196 student mental health crisis up close and personal. Where right 0:07:46.236 --> 0:07:49.276 now nationally, not just at Yale, but nationally, more than 0:07:49.436 --> 0:07:51.876 forty percent of college students report being too depressed to 0:07:51.956 --> 0:07:54.716 function most days. More than sixty percent say that they're 0:07:54.756 --> 0:07:57.876 overwhelmingly anxious. More than one in ten has seriously considered 0:07:57.916 --> 0:08:00.116 suicide in the last year. I mean, it's like a 0:08:00.396 --> 0:08:03.276 really terrible crisis that our young people are going through 0:08:03.436 --> 0:08:05.396 And that was when I realized the need for a 0:08:05.436 --> 0:08:08.476 class about strategies that all my students could use to 0:08:08.516 --> 0:08:10.876 feel I really wanted to teach them, Okay, what does 0:08:10.876 --> 0:08:14.436 the evidence say about how you can behave in different ways, 0:08:14.516 --> 0:08:17.596 develop different mindsets, ones that will really make you feel better. 0:08:17.796 --> 0:08:19.276 And so that was how the class was born. 0:08:19.516 --> 0:08:22.756 You know what's interesting about your class is you're looking 0:08:22.796 --> 0:08:26.436 at happiness through science. And when I think of happiness 0:08:26.436 --> 0:08:28.636 when I was growing up or even now, in my 0:08:28.796 --> 0:08:33.436 conscious mind, happiness is a very visceral emotion and it 0:08:33.516 --> 0:08:36.236 comes when it comes, and I can't really control it 0:08:36.276 --> 0:08:41.076 because a lot of times our happiness hinges on external factors, 0:08:41.156 --> 0:08:46.356 whether it's relationships, career, and sometimes different types of happiness 0:08:46.436 --> 0:08:50.796 almost conflict with one another. Right, So happiness in career 0:08:50.956 --> 0:08:54.796 may conflict with happiness at home. How do you teach 0:08:55.076 --> 0:08:58.276 balancing all those different aspects of happiness? 0:08:58.436 --> 0:09:00.196 Well, I think you know. One of the ways the 0:09:00.276 --> 0:09:03.276 scientific approach can be really helpful is that it tries 0:09:03.316 --> 0:09:06.356 to just get people to notice what all those factors 0:09:06.436 --> 0:09:06.876 feel like. 0:09:06.996 --> 0:09:07.116 Right. 0:09:07.156 --> 0:09:08.796 It tries to get you to notice, Okay, what are 0:09:08.836 --> 0:09:11.276 some of the kinds of things that help you feel happy. 0:09:11.476 --> 0:09:13.516 And the way that people take a scientific approach is 0:09:13.516 --> 0:09:15.476 really just to ask people, Hey, how are you feeling 0:09:15.556 --> 0:09:17.436 right now on a scale of one to ten, how 0:09:17.476 --> 0:09:19.396 satisfied are you with your life? You know, let me 0:09:19.436 --> 0:09:21.636 give you this list of positive emotions. Have you felt 0:09:21.636 --> 0:09:24.956 those today? So, ultimately it's a scientific approach, but it's 0:09:25.196 --> 0:09:28.756 a scientific approach that really takes into account people's subjective 0:09:28.796 --> 0:09:31.676 experience of how things feel like, how things feel like 0:09:31.796 --> 0:09:34.436 in people's lives, so kind of their emotions and things 0:09:34.556 --> 0:09:36.556 and how they think their life is going. And it 0:09:36.596 --> 0:09:39.676 really just encourages people to maybe do little experiments to 0:09:39.756 --> 0:09:42.156 ask like, Okay, did you feel better in your life 0:09:42.156 --> 0:09:43.836 when you were hanging out with family or when you 0:09:43.916 --> 0:09:45.916 were at work, or when you had a little bit 0:09:45.916 --> 0:09:48.236 of free time in your day versus when you were packed, packed, 0:09:48.236 --> 0:09:50.076 packed to the brim, right, And so you're kind of 0:09:50.116 --> 0:09:53.956 doing these experiments to just notice subjectively what feels good 0:09:54.076 --> 0:09:56.396 and what doesn't feel as good as I expected. And 0:09:56.436 --> 0:09:58.396 I think when you do that, you get some really 0:09:58.436 --> 0:10:01.596 interesting hints about how to balance all those competing factors. 0:10:01.916 --> 0:10:03.756 I think the first is that we often put our 0:10:03.956 --> 0:10:07.196 kind of like career achievements in the domain of happiness, right, 0:10:07.236 --> 0:10:09.636 we think, like to be happy, I need to be successful, 0:10:09.716 --> 0:10:10.956 or I need to be rich, or I need to 0:10:10.956 --> 0:10:13.596 get this promotion at work. When researchers get people to 0:10:13.596 --> 0:10:16.156 start paying attention, what they quickly realize is that those 0:10:16.236 --> 0:10:18.836 kind of career accomplishments don't really make us as happy 0:10:18.836 --> 0:10:21.156 as we think. Especially money, it really doesn't make us 0:10:21.156 --> 0:10:23.556 as happy as we think. You know, with the caveat 0:10:23.596 --> 0:10:25.316 that you have to have enough money to put food 0:10:25.356 --> 0:10:27.676 on the table and get by, right, if you're living 0:10:27.676 --> 0:10:29.996 below the poverty line, that doesn't work. But you know, 0:10:30.156 --> 0:10:32.396 for at least many of the people listening right now, 0:10:32.556 --> 0:10:34.196 if you can put food on the table and keep 0:10:34.236 --> 0:10:36.156 a roof over your head, getting a lot more money 0:10:36.156 --> 0:10:38.516 doesn't really make you as happy as as you think. 0:10:38.556 --> 0:10:40.356 That's what a lot of the data show. And so 0:10:40.436 --> 0:10:42.676 I think that as you start to pay attention to 0:10:42.716 --> 0:10:45.236 what this research shows, and again the research is just 0:10:45.316 --> 0:10:48.116 you subjectively thinking about, Okay, what really does matter? When 0:10:48.116 --> 0:10:50.516 I pay attention, what you find is that the career 0:10:50.596 --> 0:10:53.876 stuff maybe needs to get kind of downplayed relative to 0:10:53.916 --> 0:10:57.116 the social connection stuff, the kind of true relationship stuff. 0:10:57.196 --> 0:10:59.276 Even when we think about what makes us happy at work. 0:10:59.316 --> 0:11:02.156 What we often find is it's not our achievements professionally, 0:11:02.436 --> 0:11:05.476 it's the relationships we develop at work. This new study 0:11:05.516 --> 0:11:07.836 that just came out in twenty twenty three, which took 0:11:07.916 --> 0:11:10.716 data from this big job site, indeed, they found that 0:11:10.756 --> 0:11:12.916 one of the biggest predictors of your happiness at work 0:11:12.956 --> 0:11:15.476 isn't your salary or how good your manager is. It's 0:11:15.516 --> 0:11:17.596 really whether or not you have a best friend at work. 0:11:17.876 --> 0:11:20.556 So even at work, our social relationships seem to matter 0:11:20.636 --> 0:11:22.436 for feeling good. Yes, so I think we get some 0:11:22.516 --> 0:11:24.676 hints about how to kind of bring balance to all 0:11:24.676 --> 0:11:27.476 these different competing factors in our lives when we start 0:11:27.476 --> 0:11:29.516 to genuinely pay attention to what feels good. 0:11:30.276 --> 0:11:33.716 You know, what you're think makes so much sense. But unfortunately, 0:11:33.836 --> 0:11:37.156 especially living in a capitalist society, I still see people 0:11:37.236 --> 0:11:40.996 are unable to make that conscious connection. And I can 0:11:41.036 --> 0:11:43.916 give you so many examples, even in our house, where 0:11:44.196 --> 0:11:46.276 my husband and I have had these arguments about what 0:11:46.356 --> 0:11:50.156 makes us happy, and he looks at happiness differently more 0:11:50.196 --> 0:11:53.196 in the context of career, in the context of development. 0:11:53.516 --> 0:11:56.076 It may be immigrant mentality, but I think it is 0:11:56.476 --> 0:12:00.836 very common across the board. I wonder how do we 0:12:00.956 --> 0:12:04.596 make that cognitive shift. How do we really teach our 0:12:04.676 --> 0:12:09.556 brains and almost reorient ourselves to saying I can be 0:12:09.636 --> 0:12:13.116 happy if I am not extremely successful in career or 0:12:13.156 --> 0:12:16.756 if I am not making money beyond is it in threshold? 0:12:17.596 --> 0:12:21.676 What is the process of achieving that zen mode? 0:12:22.236 --> 0:12:23.916 Well, I think it's really tough, and I think this 0:12:24.036 --> 0:12:26.996 is something that I definitely see in my students. You know, 0:12:27.036 --> 0:12:29.676 we cover some of the studies like literally showing that 0:12:29.716 --> 0:12:31.516 more money doesn't make you happy. You know, I make 0:12:31.556 --> 0:12:33.516 my students read these studies, and at the end of 0:12:33.556 --> 0:12:35.676 every lecture where I talk about money and happiness, I'll 0:12:35.676 --> 0:12:37.596 have a big long line of students who want to like, 0:12:37.636 --> 0:12:39.236 you know, well that can't be true, or maybe if 0:12:39.236 --> 0:12:41.596 you spend it differently, and so on. And what's interesting is, 0:12:41.636 --> 0:12:43.436 you know, yeah, we just have such a diverse range 0:12:43.476 --> 0:12:45.956 of students. You might think that pushback would be from 0:12:45.956 --> 0:12:49.156 the students who were themselves really wealthy or grew up 0:12:49.156 --> 0:12:51.716 in a you know, really privileged background. But the pushback 0:12:51.756 --> 0:12:54.516 I often get, interestingly, is from students who haven't had 0:12:54.556 --> 0:12:57.156 that sort of privileged background, or they're coming as a 0:12:57.196 --> 0:12:59.796 first gen student, or from an immigrant background. I think 0:12:59.916 --> 0:13:03.356 for immigrants, there really is this mentality of like push, push, push, 0:13:03.396 --> 0:13:05.516 you know, pull your stuff up by your bootstraps, you know, 0:13:05.716 --> 0:13:08.356 and maybe even like sacrifice part of your mental health 0:13:08.396 --> 0:13:11.196 to get that kind of of typical capitalist success. Right. 0:13:11.276 --> 0:13:13.276 So again, those are kind of anecdotal data of just 0:13:13.316 --> 0:13:15.476 which students I talk to, But yeah, I mean I 0:13:15.476 --> 0:13:19.076 think these kinds of misperceptions are alive and well in 0:13:19.196 --> 0:13:22.276 the kind of immigrant mind. You know, there's this idea 0:13:22.316 --> 0:13:25.116 that you kind of push for money, push for external success, 0:13:25.356 --> 0:13:27.636 push for accolades at work, and that will be the 0:13:27.716 --> 0:13:29.796 thing that brings you a sense of this sort of 0:13:29.876 --> 0:13:32.396 zen piece. But when you look at the data, what 0:13:32.436 --> 0:13:34.556 you find is it just doesn't work that way. And 0:13:34.636 --> 0:13:37.156 so your question is really like how do we overcome this, right, 0:13:37.236 --> 0:13:38.916 Like how do we fight this bias? And I think 0:13:38.956 --> 0:13:41.916 it's really tough, Like it's tricky myself, Like I'll say, 0:13:42.036 --> 0:13:44.116 you know, I know all the data about this stuff, 0:13:44.156 --> 0:13:47.276 but I still share these intuitions. Right, every time I 0:13:47.316 --> 0:13:49.516 say no to a talk that was going to, you know, 0:13:49.556 --> 0:13:51.556 give me a nice honorarium, I'm kind of like, oh gosh, 0:13:51.636 --> 0:13:52.356 I'm like saying. 0:13:52.236 --> 0:13:52.716 No to money. 0:13:52.796 --> 0:13:55.236 What does that mean? Or every time I turn down 0:13:55.316 --> 0:13:57.676 the opportunity to do something more and more and more 0:13:57.716 --> 0:14:00.156 at work. I know the research, but it's I kind 0:14:00.156 --> 0:14:02.036 of have this twinge of like, oh am I going 0:14:02.116 --> 0:14:03.596 to regret this? You know, is this going to be 0:14:03.636 --> 0:14:06.756 the last opportunity I get? Right? So I completely get it, 0:14:06.916 --> 0:14:08.716 But I think something that's really helped to me is 0:14:08.756 --> 0:14:10.876 like no knowing what the science says, right, Like I 0:14:10.916 --> 0:14:12.756 can look at the graph and be like, oh, I 0:14:12.796 --> 0:14:14.956 see I'm not going to be that much happier if 0:14:14.996 --> 0:14:18.116 I double my income, or I've read the studies showing 0:14:18.556 --> 0:14:21.316 of what's called the arrival fallacy, where we think I'll 0:14:21.316 --> 0:14:23.916 be happy when I'll be happy when I get a promotion, 0:14:24.156 --> 0:14:26.036 or I'll be happy when I make this much money, 0:14:26.236 --> 0:14:29.516 and study after study shows that we just misperceived, that 0:14:29.596 --> 0:14:32.356 we just are wrong about what our predictions about what's 0:14:32.396 --> 0:14:34.276 really going to make us happy. And so for me, 0:14:34.636 --> 0:14:37.476 hearing the studies can be kind of helpful because you're like, Okay, 0:14:37.836 --> 0:14:39.916 I know the research shows that I'm wrong. Like I 0:14:39.956 --> 0:14:42.836 can't change my kind of intuition that I have about 0:14:42.836 --> 0:14:45.036 this stuff, but I'm going to kind of not follow 0:14:45.076 --> 0:14:47.116 my intuition. I'm going to kind of follow what I 0:14:47.116 --> 0:14:48.876 think is right. And then often when you do that, 0:14:48.956 --> 0:14:50.956 you get new data to be like, oh, actually that 0:14:51.196 --> 0:14:53.476 opportunity that I turned down so i'd have more time 0:14:53.476 --> 0:14:55.876 with my family, that was actually a good move, right, 0:14:55.916 --> 0:14:58.516 Like that actually did make me happy, Or like that, no, 0:14:58.836 --> 0:15:01.956 I said in my calendar, that feels great. When I 0:15:02.196 --> 0:15:03.596 kind of noticed, like oh that was when I was 0:15:03.596 --> 0:15:05.156 supposed to take that trip where I was supposed to 0:15:05.196 --> 0:15:07.116 have that meeting, it's like, oh, this feels great to 0:15:07.116 --> 0:15:08.676 have a little bit more free time. And so I 0:15:08.676 --> 0:15:10.916 think when you start to see the outcomes of doing 0:15:10.916 --> 0:15:14.276 things a little differently, you can get your own data like, hey, 0:15:14.316 --> 0:15:15.916 this is working better than I expected. 0:15:17.036 --> 0:15:19.996 Lottie, you said something so interesting about looking at the 0:15:20.116 --> 0:15:24.036 data looking at grafts. Are you ever concerned about over 0:15:24.156 --> 0:15:26.556 pathologizing the science of happiness. 0:15:26.836 --> 0:15:29.316 One of the things that's great about this particular form 0:15:29.356 --> 0:15:32.756 of science, right, is that it's based on people's subjective reports. 0:15:32.916 --> 0:15:35.196 In some ways, these are people who are saying, you know, hey, 0:15:35.236 --> 0:15:36.516 at a scale of one to ten, this is how 0:15:36.516 --> 0:15:38.876 I feel about happiness and so on. That means it's 0:15:38.956 --> 0:15:41.436 kind of taking away some of the experience. Right, If 0:15:41.436 --> 0:15:44.676 I had richer narrative reports, obviously we would learn more about, 0:15:44.796 --> 0:15:47.876 you know, all the nuances of people's subjective experiences. But 0:15:47.956 --> 0:15:50.316 because like what the research is doing is really getting 0:15:50.316 --> 0:15:53.236 people's actual opinions of what's going on, I think I 0:15:53.236 --> 0:15:55.676 can actually be a powerful way to really understand how 0:15:55.716 --> 0:15:58.516 people are feeling. So I'm a little bit less worried 0:15:58.516 --> 0:16:01.596 about the kind of pathologizing. I think it definitely is 0:16:01.636 --> 0:16:05.756 missing something about people's complete experiences, obviously, but it does 0:16:05.836 --> 0:16:07.836 let us get a kind of important glimpse that I 0:16:07.876 --> 0:16:10.116 think has been at least for me, really helpful as 0:16:10.156 --> 0:16:12.196 I kind of puzzle through what's the right way to 0:16:12.236 --> 0:16:13.836 live a healthy and a happy life. 0:16:20.396 --> 0:16:23.396 You know, this is a great segue into bringing culture 0:16:23.476 --> 0:16:27.476 and cultural nuances into the idea of happiness. Now. I 0:16:27.516 --> 0:16:31.476 grew up in Pakistan, a collectivist society. Happiness is defined 0:16:31.636 --> 0:16:35.716 very differently there. It is less materialistic in some ways, right, 0:16:35.796 --> 0:16:39.516 So spending time with your parents, with your grandparents, siblings, 0:16:39.836 --> 0:16:45.036 having extended relationships is in a way manifestation of happiness. 0:16:45.116 --> 0:16:47.876 And then you come to the US, and I felt 0:16:48.196 --> 0:16:53.316 very lonely in the beginning. I felt disoriented. I recognized 0:16:53.356 --> 0:16:56.236 my depression and anxiety more in the US than in 0:16:56.276 --> 0:16:59.796 Pakistan because I was always surrounded by family and friends. 0:17:00.396 --> 0:17:04.756 What differences have you seen across different cultures, especially Eastern 0:17:04.916 --> 0:17:06.236 versus Western cultures. 0:17:07.076 --> 0:17:08.876 I think this is a really great question. It's actually 0:17:08.916 --> 0:17:11.356 one are starting to get you a better handle on 0:17:11.476 --> 0:17:13.516 right where you're doing the right studies with big enough 0:17:13.556 --> 0:17:16.836 samples of people from different cultures. One of the best 0:17:17.076 --> 0:17:19.476 research tools that we have to look at this comes 0:17:19.476 --> 0:17:22.396 from this report that's known as the World Happiness Report, 0:17:22.516 --> 0:17:25.116 where they survey all these things about people's emotion and 0:17:25.196 --> 0:17:28.516 happiness across all kinds of different countries. And what they 0:17:28.556 --> 0:17:31.036 find in the report is pretty interesting. You know, first 0:17:31.036 --> 0:17:34.196 of all, there is great variance and happiness across cultures. 0:17:34.436 --> 0:17:36.196 They do things with the World Happiness Report where they 0:17:36.236 --> 0:17:38.636 rank the different countries in terms of their happiness, which 0:17:38.636 --> 0:17:40.676 I think gets a lot of headlines but misses a 0:17:40.676 --> 0:17:42.916 lot of the nuance. But when you do those rankings, 0:17:42.956 --> 0:17:45.716 you often find that Scandinavian countries kind of kind of 0:17:45.716 --> 0:17:48.236 out happiest, you know, Norway, Denmark, those are the ones 0:17:48.236 --> 0:17:50.356 that are happy. But then countries that you might not 0:17:50.636 --> 0:17:52.996 expect you know, so countries in South America, places like 0:17:52.996 --> 0:17:55.276 Costa Rica and so on, tend to be a little 0:17:55.316 --> 0:17:57.796 bit happier and so on, at least relative to the US. 0:17:58.116 --> 0:18:00.996 And so often what you get from that is to say, Okay, 0:18:01.036 --> 0:18:03.876 what are the happier countries doing a little bit differently? 0:18:04.236 --> 0:18:06.116 And what you find is they're prioritizing some of the 0:18:06.156 --> 0:18:08.836 same things you noticed about your kind of home life 0:18:08.876 --> 0:18:11.116 back in the day, which is that like you're prioritizing 0:18:11.156 --> 0:18:14.076 things like social connection. Family is you know, kind of 0:18:14.116 --> 0:18:17.076 considered more valuable than work. When those two things come 0:18:17.116 --> 0:18:19.836 into conflict, famili is always going to win out. People 0:18:19.836 --> 0:18:23.156 are around other people more often, so there's much less loneliness, 0:18:23.196 --> 0:18:26.396 much more social connection, and there's cultures that tend to 0:18:26.436 --> 0:18:28.156 be happier, tend to be a little bit more on 0:18:28.196 --> 0:18:30.836 the collective side, right. You know, you think of Scandinavian 0:18:30.876 --> 0:18:33.596 countries and they have things like universal income and like 0:18:33.716 --> 0:18:36.036 allowing to kind of help other people. Right. It's not 0:18:36.116 --> 0:18:38.716 kind of like you live and die by your own 0:18:38.836 --> 0:18:41.796 sort of hard work alone. Right. It takes a village 0:18:41.996 --> 0:18:45.716 kind of approach rate, Yes, exactly. And so I think 0:18:45.796 --> 0:18:48.236 when we start looking at those cultural differences. One thing 0:18:48.276 --> 0:18:50.676 we can say is like, hang on, maybe the values 0:18:50.676 --> 0:18:52.796 that we have in the US, this kind of super 0:18:52.796 --> 0:18:55.996 individualism and capitalism at all costs, you know, maybe we're 0:18:56.036 --> 0:18:58.436 kind of missing something that really does matter for our 0:18:58.476 --> 0:19:01.716 actual happiness. And so I think these kinds of comparisons 0:19:01.716 --> 0:19:04.796 across countries can be really powerful. I think another thing 0:19:04.876 --> 0:19:07.556 we see in these comparisons across countries is that it's 0:19:07.596 --> 0:19:11.476 not all about the individual happiness. Like, what's happening politically 0:19:11.596 --> 0:19:14.556 obviously matters a lot, you know, So the equality of 0:19:14.596 --> 0:19:16.756 a country seems to matter a lot. The trust that 0:19:16.796 --> 0:19:19.196 people have in government matters a lot. That's actually one 0:19:19.236 --> 0:19:21.276 of the reasons in the United States that we've dropped 0:19:21.276 --> 0:19:23.516 a lot in our rankings of happiness is because there's 0:19:23.596 --> 0:19:26.836 less and less trust in the political process, trust of 0:19:26.836 --> 0:19:29.356 our fellow man, with all the political polarization we see 0:19:29.356 --> 0:19:32.076