1 00:00:15,476 --> 00:00:21,236 Speaker 1: Pushkin, Hey, doctor Lori Santos. Here. This week, the Happiness 2 00:00:21,316 --> 00:00:24,116 Speaker 1: Lab is bringing you a special crossover episode with the 3 00:00:24,156 --> 00:00:28,996 Speaker 1: Immigrantly podcast. Immigrantly is hosted by Sadia Khan, a social 4 00:00:29,116 --> 00:00:32,116 Speaker 1: entrepreneur and the founder of Immigrantly Media. She and I 5 00:00:32,156 --> 00:00:35,956 Speaker 1: had an incredible conversation where we explored the origins of happiness. 6 00:00:36,476 --> 00:00:39,076 Speaker 1: We talked about whether happiness is just a fleeting moment 7 00:00:39,356 --> 00:00:42,036 Speaker 1: or whether we can sustain it over time. We also 8 00:00:42,116 --> 00:00:46,356 Speaker 1: explored how our backgrounds, personalities, and choices shaped our perceptions 9 00:00:46,356 --> 00:00:49,636 Speaker 1: of happiness. I really enjoyed the conversation, so I hope 10 00:00:49,636 --> 00:00:50,196 Speaker 1: you do too. 11 00:00:57,356 --> 00:01:00,836 Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to Immigrantly. I am Sadia A. Khan. 12 00:01:02,796 --> 00:01:06,516 Speaker 2: This week on Immigrantly, I embark on a jamie into 13 00:01:06,556 --> 00:01:13,036 Speaker 2: the fast, vibrant, and our predictable world of happiness. Is 14 00:01:13,076 --> 00:01:16,876 Speaker 2: happiness a fleeting moment or a lasting state? Can it 15 00:01:16,956 --> 00:01:21,396 Speaker 2: be actively pursued or is it intrinsic to human existence? 16 00:01:21,716 --> 00:01:26,716 Speaker 2: How do our backgrounds, personalities and life choices shape our 17 00:01:26,796 --> 00:01:32,196 Speaker 2: experiences of happiness? And what is this elusive state everyone 18 00:01:32,356 --> 00:01:36,676 Speaker 2: seeks but seems hard to grasp consistently? And lastly, is 19 00:01:36,716 --> 00:01:41,676 Speaker 2: happiness a universal language that transcends different lives and cultures, 20 00:01:41,996 --> 00:01:46,396 Speaker 2: or is it as divis as the individuals seeking it? Yes, 21 00:01:46,756 --> 00:01:50,596 Speaker 2: we will address all those questions and more in our 22 00:01:50,636 --> 00:01:56,116 Speaker 2: today's episode. According to my today's guest Lauri Santos, a 23 00:01:56,236 --> 00:02:00,756 Speaker 2: cognitive science and psychology professor at Yale, happiness isn't just 24 00:02:00,836 --> 00:02:04,196 Speaker 2: an emotion you feel, but something that can be taught, 25 00:02:04,436 --> 00:02:08,076 Speaker 2: almost like a muscle that can be worked out. Santos 26 00:02:08,196 --> 00:02:11,956 Speaker 2: saw that his two dents were increasingly anxious and depressed 27 00:02:12,076 --> 00:02:15,156 Speaker 2: and decided she wanted to give them some tools on 28 00:02:15,316 --> 00:02:18,196 Speaker 2: not just how to be happy, but how they can 29 00:02:18,236 --> 00:02:24,156 Speaker 2: make themselves happier using science. Her course, Psychology and the 30 00:02:24,196 --> 00:02:28,596 Speaker 2: Good Life became the most popular course in Yale's history 31 00:02:28,796 --> 00:02:32,836 Speaker 2: when it launched in twenty eighteen, with about one force 32 00:02:33,196 --> 00:02:37,596 Speaker 2: of Yale's undergraduates enrolled in it. She's also the host 33 00:02:37,636 --> 00:02:43,436 Speaker 2: of the Happiness Lab, which has over ninety million downloads. 34 00:02:43,796 --> 00:02:48,316 Speaker 2: I'm honored to interview Laurie today, so let's get started. 35 00:03:11,636 --> 00:03:12,436 Speaker 2: How are you doing. 36 00:03:12,676 --> 00:03:14,396 Speaker 1: I'm good, I'm good. Thanks so much for having me 37 00:03:14,436 --> 00:03:14,876 Speaker 1: on the show. 38 00:03:15,356 --> 00:03:16,996 Speaker 2: How is your heart today? 39 00:03:17,316 --> 00:03:20,996 Speaker 1: How's my heart today? My good friend from college was 40 00:03:21,036 --> 00:03:22,956 Speaker 1: just in town this morning with her daughter. They're on 41 00:03:22,996 --> 00:03:25,756 Speaker 1: a college tour, and so I just had breakfast with her, 42 00:03:25,956 --> 00:03:27,956 Speaker 1: and so I think my heart isn't a warm place 43 00:03:27,996 --> 00:03:30,156 Speaker 1: this morning. It's kind of nice. It's been a good day. 44 00:03:30,636 --> 00:03:33,596 Speaker 2: I was at a friend's house yesterday and I told 45 00:03:33,636 --> 00:03:37,356 Speaker 2: her about the interview and she was freaking out. She 46 00:03:37,516 --> 00:03:41,436 Speaker 2: was like, Oh, my gosh, You're going to interview Laurie Santos. 47 00:03:41,436 --> 00:03:44,916 Speaker 2: She was like, I listened to her podcast every single week. 48 00:03:45,636 --> 00:03:49,636 Speaker 2: You've become very very popular. How are you handling it? 49 00:03:49,636 --> 00:03:51,756 Speaker 1: It's good. I mean, it's really humbling, right to see 50 00:03:51,756 --> 00:03:54,676 Speaker 1: the fact that sharing these strategies for improving happiness can 51 00:03:54,716 --> 00:03:56,276 Speaker 1: really help people, right. I mean, that's one of the 52 00:03:56,316 --> 00:03:58,076 Speaker 1: reasons I get into this. But it's so nice that 53 00:03:58,116 --> 00:04:01,236 Speaker 1: it's actually working. I think a challenge of it is, 54 00:04:01,276 --> 00:04:03,996 Speaker 1: really there's so many more demands on my time, right 55 00:04:03,996 --> 00:04:06,556 Speaker 1: There's requests to give talks and podcasts and these things, 56 00:04:06,636 --> 00:04:08,636 Speaker 1: and so I've had to be very careful about what 57 00:04:08,716 --> 00:04:10,876 Speaker 1: I say yes to. And it's really a challenge to 58 00:04:10,876 --> 00:04:12,556 Speaker 1: say no to things that are great, but to just 59 00:04:12,596 --> 00:04:14,876 Speaker 1: say I have to protect my bandwidth. I have to 60 00:04:14,916 --> 00:04:17,476 Speaker 1: prejet burnout, you know, And so that can be really tricky, 61 00:04:17,636 --> 00:04:20,276 Speaker 1: but overall it's just been an incredible experience. 62 00:04:20,796 --> 00:04:24,436 Speaker 2: Before we delve into the science of happiness, let's go 63 00:04:24,596 --> 00:04:27,356 Speaker 2: back to your childhood. Can you talk a little bit 64 00:04:27,396 --> 00:04:30,556 Speaker 2: about where you grew up and what are some of 65 00:04:30,596 --> 00:04:33,116 Speaker 2: the happy memories from your childhood. 66 00:04:33,956 --> 00:04:37,996 Speaker 1: Yeah, so I grew up in New Bedford, Massachusetts, which 67 00:04:38,036 --> 00:04:40,116 Speaker 1: is a large working class down It used to be 68 00:04:40,116 --> 00:04:42,756 Speaker 1: the richest town in America when whaling and those kind 69 00:04:42,756 --> 00:04:45,276 Speaker 1: of things were going on, but nowadays they don't really 70 00:04:45,316 --> 00:04:47,956 Speaker 1: have whaling as an industry, so it's been a kind 71 00:04:47,956 --> 00:04:50,276 Speaker 1: of struggling town when I was growing up. But I had, 72 00:04:50,356 --> 00:04:53,716 Speaker 1: you know, an incredibly happy family situation, at least for 73 00:04:53,836 --> 00:04:55,556 Speaker 1: the kind of first part of my life. You know. 74 00:04:55,596 --> 00:04:58,116 Speaker 1: I remember like we had a house that I would 75 00:04:58,116 --> 00:04:59,916 Speaker 1: have a little yard that I could run around in 76 00:04:59,996 --> 00:05:02,836 Speaker 1: and things. You know. My brother is four years younger 77 00:05:02,836 --> 00:05:04,836 Speaker 1: than me, and he was a kind of constant playmate. 78 00:05:05,076 --> 00:05:07,196 Speaker 1: You know. I had fun just kind of being a kid, 79 00:05:07,276 --> 00:05:10,756 Speaker 1: being unscheduled, coming up with my own weird activities, whether 80 00:05:10,796 --> 00:05:12,916 Speaker 1: that was like making up little games for me and 81 00:05:12,916 --> 00:05:15,716 Speaker 1: my brother to play in the basement, to just kind 82 00:05:15,716 --> 00:05:18,316 Speaker 1: of like creating and doing things. I feel like I 83 00:05:18,356 --> 00:05:20,996 Speaker 1: wrote like lots of fake books, and you know, like 84 00:05:21,036 --> 00:05:23,036 Speaker 1: this little kind of camera, so we would, you know, 85 00:05:23,116 --> 00:05:25,436 Speaker 1: make little videos and things on it. And so I 86 00:05:25,476 --> 00:05:28,676 Speaker 1: remember my childhood as being incredibly fun and incredibly creative. 87 00:05:30,196 --> 00:05:31,916 Speaker 2: What were those fake books about? 88 00:05:32,156 --> 00:05:35,516 Speaker 1: Well, I think they were kind of massively taken from 89 00:05:35,556 --> 00:05:37,276 Speaker 1: some of the cartoons I watched. You know. One of 90 00:05:37,276 --> 00:05:39,316 Speaker 1: them was called like the Cat and the Mouse, which 91 00:05:39,316 --> 00:05:42,436 Speaker 1: I think was a basically plagiarized version of Tom and Jerry. 92 00:05:42,996 --> 00:05:44,956 Speaker 1: I didn't never try to publish it, you know, so 93 00:05:44,996 --> 00:05:46,796 Speaker 1: the plagiarism wasn't an issue, but it was kind of 94 00:05:46,916 --> 00:05:48,636 Speaker 1: you know, drawing the pictures of the cat and the 95 00:05:48,676 --> 00:05:50,756 Speaker 1: mouse and kind of coming up with these sort of 96 00:05:50,916 --> 00:05:53,676 Speaker 1: fun stories and things and so yeah, so I kind 97 00:05:53,676 --> 00:05:56,116 Speaker 1: of enjoyed doing all that stuff creatively. 98 00:05:56,036 --> 00:05:59,916 Speaker 2: Very fast, while would do today. You are a professor. 99 00:06:00,196 --> 00:06:03,316 Speaker 2: Why did you want to become a professor? What led 100 00:06:03,356 --> 00:06:04,236 Speaker 2: you to that bath? 101 00:06:04,476 --> 00:06:06,956 Speaker 1: Well, I've always been interested in psychology and sort of 102 00:06:06,956 --> 00:06:09,836 Speaker 1: how people work, and I think growing up, I really 103 00:06:09,876 --> 00:06:12,316 Speaker 1: just thought that the way you were a psychologist, as 104 00:06:12,316 --> 00:06:14,076 Speaker 1: you were kind of a clinical psychologist, like you'd have 105 00:06:14,116 --> 00:06:15,956 Speaker 1: to be a therapist or put people on a couch. 106 00:06:16,116 --> 00:06:18,116 Speaker 1: But when I realized there was like this field where 107 00:06:18,116 --> 00:06:20,676 Speaker 1: you could try to understand how the mind worked and 108 00:06:20,716 --> 00:06:23,476 Speaker 1: how people fought, and that you could do research and publish, 109 00:06:23,676 --> 00:06:25,916 Speaker 1: I was like, oh, man, this sounds amazing. And I 110 00:06:25,956 --> 00:06:28,476 Speaker 1: really only learned that when I first started college. I 111 00:06:28,476 --> 00:06:30,996 Speaker 1: had a great grad student mentor who kind of showed 112 00:06:30,996 --> 00:06:33,276 Speaker 1: me the ropes and even honestly explained that like, you know, 113 00:06:33,316 --> 00:06:35,596 Speaker 1: and actually, you know, many PhD programs like they don't 114 00:06:35,596 --> 00:06:37,516 Speaker 1: even charge you, like you can go for free. You 115 00:06:37,556 --> 00:06:39,116 Speaker 1: get your education for free. And I was like, wait, 116 00:06:39,116 --> 00:06:41,196 Speaker 1: this is amazing. You know. It was kind of in 117 00:06:41,236 --> 00:06:43,636 Speaker 1: that phase that I learned that being a professor was 118 00:06:43,676 --> 00:06:45,956 Speaker 1: a possibility. What I really wanted to do was to 119 00:06:45,956 --> 00:06:48,116 Speaker 1: find ways to study the mind, and I realized like, oh, 120 00:06:48,116 --> 00:06:49,596 Speaker 1: this is a career where you could do that. 121 00:06:50,196 --> 00:06:54,196 Speaker 2: From being a professor to being a professor of the 122 00:06:54,236 --> 00:06:59,196 Speaker 2: most sought after class at Yale, tell me about that process. 123 00:06:59,636 --> 00:07:02,076 Speaker 1: So I've been teaching at Yale for over two decades now, 124 00:07:02,116 --> 00:07:04,316 Speaker 1: which makes me feel very very old. Honestly, the time 125 00:07:04,356 --> 00:07:06,356 Speaker 1: goes by very fast, and for most of my time 126 00:07:06,356 --> 00:07:08,076 Speaker 1: at Yale, I was, you know, a professor at the 127 00:07:08,156 --> 00:07:11,196 Speaker 1: front of the classroom, taught classes about my research, which 128 00:07:11,236 --> 00:07:13,596 Speaker 1: focused a lot on animals and what makes the human 129 00:07:13,636 --> 00:07:16,276 Speaker 1: mind unique. And I thought college life was a lot 130 00:07:16,316 --> 00:07:18,596 Speaker 1: like what college life was like when I was in college, 131 00:07:18,596 --> 00:07:21,076 Speaker 1: which was fine and mostly happy. You know, there was 132 00:07:21,116 --> 00:07:23,956 Speaker 1: some stresses, obviously, but it wasn't nearly as bad as 133 00:07:23,956 --> 00:07:25,476 Speaker 1: the kind of thing we're seeing today. But I was 134 00:07:25,556 --> 00:07:27,956 Speaker 1: kind of blind to really what young people are going 135 00:07:27,996 --> 00:07:30,076 Speaker 1: through today. And then I took a new role on 136 00:07:30,156 --> 00:07:32,476 Speaker 1: campus where I became what's called the head of college. 137 00:07:32,516 --> 00:07:35,236 Speaker 1: And so heads of colleges at Yale are faculty who 138 00:07:35,316 --> 00:07:37,756 Speaker 1: live on campus with students, and so I lived on 139 00:07:37,796 --> 00:07:39,556 Speaker 1: campus with students, I ate with them at the dining 140 00:07:39,556 --> 00:07:41,196 Speaker 1: hall and kind of hung out with them. And that 141 00:07:41,276 --> 00:07:43,276 Speaker 1: was when I really first started to see the college 142 00:07:43,276 --> 00:07:46,196 Speaker 1: student mental health crisis up close and personal. Where right 143 00:07:46,236 --> 00:07:49,276 Speaker 1: now nationally, not just at Yale, but nationally, more than 144 00:07:49,436 --> 00:07:51,876 Speaker 1: forty percent of college students report being too depressed to 145 00:07:51,956 --> 00:07:54,716 Speaker 1: function most days. More than sixty percent say that they're 146 00:07:54,756 --> 00:07:57,876 Speaker 1: overwhelmingly anxious. More than one in ten has seriously considered 147 00:07:57,916 --> 00:08:00,116 Speaker 1: suicide in the last year. I mean, it's like a 148 00:08:00,396 --> 00:08:03,276 Speaker 1: really terrible crisis that our young people are going through 149 00:08:03,436 --> 00:08:05,396 Speaker 1: And that was when I realized the need for a 150 00:08:05,436 --> 00:08:08,476 Speaker 1: class about strategies that all my students could use to 151 00:08:08,516 --> 00:08:10,876 Speaker 1: feel I really wanted to teach them, Okay, what does 152 00:08:10,876 --> 00:08:14,436 Speaker 1: the evidence say about how you can behave in different ways, 153 00:08:14,516 --> 00:08:17,596 Speaker 1: develop different mindsets, ones that will really make you feel better. 154 00:08:17,796 --> 00:08:19,276 Speaker 1: And so that was how the class was born. 155 00:08:19,516 --> 00:08:22,756 Speaker 2: You know what's interesting about your class is you're looking 156 00:08:22,796 --> 00:08:26,436 Speaker 2: at happiness through science. And when I think of happiness 157 00:08:26,436 --> 00:08:28,636 Speaker 2: when I was growing up or even now, in my 158 00:08:28,796 --> 00:08:33,436 Speaker 2: conscious mind, happiness is a very visceral emotion and it 159 00:08:33,516 --> 00:08:36,236 Speaker 2: comes when it comes, and I can't really control it 160 00:08:36,276 --> 00:08:41,076 Speaker 2: because a lot of times our happiness hinges on external factors, 161 00:08:41,156 --> 00:08:46,356 Speaker 2: whether it's relationships, career, and sometimes different types of happiness 162 00:08:46,436 --> 00:08:50,796 Speaker 2: almost conflict with one another. Right, So happiness in career 163 00:08:50,956 --> 00:08:54,796 Speaker 2: may conflict with happiness at home. How do you teach 164 00:08:55,076 --> 00:08:58,276 Speaker 2: balancing all those different aspects of happiness? 165 00:08:58,436 --> 00:09:00,196 Speaker 1: Well, I think you know. One of the ways the 166 00:09:00,276 --> 00:09:03,276 Speaker 1: scientific approach can be really helpful is that it tries 167 00:09:03,316 --> 00:09:06,356 Speaker 1: to just get people to notice what all those factors 168 00:09:06,436 --> 00:09:06,876 Speaker 1: feel like. 169 00:09:06,996 --> 00:09:07,116 Speaker 3: Right. 170 00:09:07,156 --> 00:09:08,796 Speaker 1: It tries to get you to notice, Okay, what are 171 00:09:08,836 --> 00:09:11,276 Speaker 1: some of the kinds of things that help you feel happy. 172 00:09:11,476 --> 00:09:13,516 Speaker 1: And the way that people take a scientific approach is 173 00:09:13,516 --> 00:09:15,476 Speaker 1: really just to ask people, Hey, how are you feeling 174 00:09:15,556 --> 00:09:17,436 Speaker 1: right now on a scale of one to ten, how 175 00:09:17,476 --> 00:09:19,396 Speaker 1: satisfied are you with your life? You know, let me 176 00:09:19,436 --> 00:09:21,636 Speaker 1: give you this list of positive emotions. Have you felt 177 00:09:21,636 --> 00:09:24,956 Speaker 1: those today? So, ultimately it's a scientific approach, but it's 178 00:09:25,196 --> 00:09:28,756 Speaker 1: a scientific approach that really takes into account people's subjective 179 00:09:28,796 --> 00:09:31,676 Speaker 1: experience of how things feel like, how things feel like 180 00:09:31,796 --> 00:09:34,436 Speaker 1: in people's lives, so kind of their emotions and things 181 00:09:34,556 --> 00:09:36,556 Speaker 1: and how they think their life is going. And it 182 00:09:36,596 --> 00:09:39,676 Speaker 1: really just encourages people to maybe do little experiments to 183 00:09:39,756 --> 00:09:42,156 Speaker 1: ask like, Okay, did you feel better in your life 184 00:09:42,156 --> 00:09:43,836 Speaker 1: when you were hanging out with family or when you 185 00:09:43,916 --> 00:09:45,916 Speaker 1: were at work, or when you had a little bit 186 00:09:45,916 --> 00:09:48,236 Speaker 1: of free time in your day versus when you were packed, packed, 187 00:09:48,236 --> 00:09:50,076 Speaker 1: packed to the brim, right, And so you're kind of 188 00:09:50,116 --> 00:09:53,956 Speaker 1: doing these experiments to just notice subjectively what feels good 189 00:09:54,076 --> 00:09:56,396 Speaker 1: and what doesn't feel as good as I expected. And 190 00:09:56,436 --> 00:09:58,396 Speaker 1: I think when you do that, you get some really 191 00:09:58,436 --> 00:10:01,596 Speaker 1: interesting hints about how to balance all those competing factors. 192 00:10:01,916 --> 00:10:03,756 Speaker 1: I think the first is that we often put our 193 00:10:03,956 --> 00:10:07,196 Speaker 1: kind of like career achievements in the domain of happiness, right, 194 00:10:07,236 --> 00:10:09,636 Speaker 1: we think, like to be happy, I need to be successful, 195 00:10:09,716 --> 00:10:10,956 Speaker 1: or I need to be rich, or I need to 196 00:10:10,956 --> 00:10:13,596 Speaker 1: get this promotion at work. When researchers get people to 197 00:10:13,596 --> 00:10:16,156 Speaker 1: start paying attention, what they quickly realize is that those 198 00:10:16,236 --> 00:10:18,836 Speaker 1: kind of career accomplishments don't really make us as happy 199 00:10:18,836 --> 00:10:21,156 Speaker 1: as we think. Especially money, it really doesn't make us 200 00:10:21,156 --> 00:10:23,556 Speaker 1: as happy as we think. You know, with the caveat 201 00:10:23,596 --> 00:10:25,316 Speaker 1: that you have to have enough money to put food 202 00:10:25,356 --> 00:10:27,676 Speaker 1: on the table and get by, right, if you're living 203 00:10:27,676 --> 00:10:29,996 Speaker 1: below the poverty line, that doesn't work. But you know, 204 00:10:30,156 --> 00:10:32,396 Speaker 1: for at least many of the people listening right now, 205 00:10:32,556 --> 00:10:34,196 Speaker 1: if you can put food on the table and keep 206 00:10:34,236 --> 00:10:36,156 Speaker 1: a roof over your head, getting a lot more money 207 00:10:36,156 --> 00:10:38,516 Speaker 1: doesn't really make you as happy as as you think. 208 00:10:38,556 --> 00:10:40,356 Speaker 1: That's what a lot of the data show. And so 209 00:10:40,436 --> 00:10:42,676 Speaker 1: I think that as you start to pay attention to 210 00:10:42,716 --> 00:10:45,236 Speaker 1: what this research shows, and again the research is just 211 00:10:45,316 --> 00:10:48,116 Speaker 1: you subjectively thinking about, Okay, what really does matter? When 212 00:10:48,116 --> 00:10:50,516 Speaker 1: I pay attention, what you find is that the career 213 00:10:50,596 --> 00:10:53,876 Speaker 1: stuff maybe needs to get kind of downplayed relative to 214 00:10:53,916 --> 00:10:57,116 Speaker 1: the social connection stuff, the kind of true relationship stuff. 215 00:10:57,196 --> 00:10:59,276 Speaker 1: Even when we think about what makes us happy at work. 216 00:10:59,316 --> 00:11:02,156 Speaker 1: What we often find is it's not our achievements professionally, 217 00:11:02,436 --> 00:11:05,476 Speaker 1: it's the relationships we develop at work. This new study 218 00:11:05,516 --> 00:11:07,836 Speaker 1: that just came out in twenty twenty three, which took 219 00:11:07,916 --> 00:11:10,716 Speaker 1: data from this big job site, indeed, they found that 220 00:11:10,756 --> 00:11:12,916 Speaker 1: one of the biggest predictors of your happiness at work 221 00:11:12,956 --> 00:11:15,476 Speaker 1: isn't your salary or how good your manager is. It's 222 00:11:15,516 --> 00:11:17,596 Speaker 1: really whether or not you have a best friend at work. 223 00:11:17,876 --> 00:11:20,556 Speaker 1: So even at work, our social relationships seem to matter 224 00:11:20,636 --> 00:11:22,436 Speaker 1: for feeling good. Yes, so I think we get some 225 00:11:22,516 --> 00:11:24,676 Speaker 1: hints about how to kind of bring balance to all 226 00:11:24,676 --> 00:11:27,476 Speaker 1: these different competing factors in our lives when we start 227 00:11:27,476 --> 00:11:29,516 Speaker 1: to genuinely pay attention to what feels good. 228 00:11:30,276 --> 00:11:33,716 Speaker 2: You know, what you're think makes so much sense. But unfortunately, 229 00:11:33,836 --> 00:11:37,156 Speaker 2: especially living in a capitalist society, I still see people 230 00:11:37,236 --> 00:11:40,996 Speaker 2: are unable to make that conscious connection. And I can 231 00:11:41,036 --> 00:11:43,916 Speaker 2: give you so many examples, even in our house, where 232 00:11:44,196 --> 00:11:46,276 Speaker 2: my husband and I have had these arguments about what 233 00:11:46,356 --> 00:11:50,156 Speaker 2: makes us happy, and he looks at happiness differently more 234 00:11:50,196 --> 00:11:53,196 Speaker 2: in the context of career, in the context of development. 235 00:11:53,516 --> 00:11:56,076 Speaker 2: It may be immigrant mentality, but I think it is 236 00:11:56,476 --> 00:12:00,836 Speaker 2: very common across the board. I wonder how do we 237 00:12:00,956 --> 00:12:04,596 Speaker 2: make that cognitive shift. How do we really teach our 238 00:12:04,676 --> 00:12:09,556 Speaker 2: brains and almost reorient ourselves to saying I can be 239 00:12:09,636 --> 00:12:13,116 Speaker 2: happy if I am not extremely successful in career or 240 00:12:13,156 --> 00:12:16,756 Speaker 2: if I am not making money beyond is it in threshold? 241 00:12:17,596 --> 00:12:21,676 Speaker 2: What is the process of achieving that zen mode? 242 00:12:22,236 --> 00:12:23,916 Speaker 1: Well, I think it's really tough, and I think this 243 00:12:24,036 --> 00:12:26,996 Speaker 1: is something that I definitely see in my students. You know, 244 00:12:27,036 --> 00:12:29,676 Speaker 1: we cover some of the studies like literally showing that 245 00:12:29,716 --> 00:12:31,516 Speaker 1: more money doesn't make you happy. You know, I make 246 00:12:31,556 --> 00:12:33,516 Speaker 1: my students read these studies, and at the end of 247 00:12:33,556 --> 00:12:35,676 Speaker 1: every lecture where I talk about money and happiness, I'll 248 00:12:35,676 --> 00:12:37,596 Speaker 1: have a big long line of students who want to like, 249 00:12:37,636 --> 00:12:39,236 Speaker 1: you know, well that can't be true, or maybe if 250 00:12:39,236 --> 00:12:41,596 Speaker 1: you spend it differently, and so on. And what's interesting is, 251 00:12:41,636 --> 00:12:43,436 Speaker 1: you know, yeah, we just have such a diverse range 252 00:12:43,476 --> 00:12:45,956 Speaker 1: of students. You might think that pushback would be from 253 00:12:45,956 --> 00:12:49,156 Speaker 1: the students who were themselves really wealthy or grew up 254 00:12:49,156 --> 00:12:51,716 Speaker 1: in a you know, really privileged background. But the pushback 255 00:12:51,756 --> 00:12:54,516 Speaker 1: I often get, interestingly, is from students who haven't had 256 00:12:54,556 --> 00:12:57,156 Speaker 1: that sort of privileged background, or they're coming as a 257 00:12:57,196 --> 00:12:59,796 Speaker 1: first gen student, or from an immigrant background. I think 258 00:12:59,916 --> 00:13:03,356 Speaker 1: for immigrants, there really is this mentality of like push, push, push, 259 00:13:03,396 --> 00:13:05,516 Speaker 1: you know, pull your stuff up by your bootstraps, you know, 260 00:13:05,716 --> 00:13:08,356 Speaker 1: and maybe even like sacrifice part of your mental health 261 00:13:08,396 --> 00:13:11,196 Speaker 1: to get that kind of of typical capitalist success. Right. 262 00:13:11,276 --> 00:13:13,276 Speaker 1: So again, those are kind of anecdotal data of just 263 00:13:13,316 --> 00:13:15,476 Speaker 1: which students I talk to, But yeah, I mean I 264 00:13:15,476 --> 00:13:19,076 Speaker 1: think these kinds of misperceptions are alive and well in 265 00:13:19,196 --> 00:13:22,276 Speaker 1: the kind of immigrant mind. You know, there's this idea 266 00:13:22,316 --> 00:13:25,116 Speaker 1: that you kind of push for money, push for external success, 267 00:13:25,356 --> 00:13:27,636 Speaker 1: push for accolades at work, and that will be the 268 00:13:27,716 --> 00:13:29,796 Speaker 1: thing that brings you a sense of this sort of 269 00:13:29,876 --> 00:13:32,396 Speaker 1: zen piece. But when you look at the data, what 270 00:13:32,436 --> 00:13:34,556 Speaker 1: you find is it just doesn't work that way. And 271 00:13:34,636 --> 00:13:37,156 Speaker 1: so your question is really like how do we overcome this, right, 272 00:13:37,236 --> 00:13:38,916 Speaker 1: Like how do we fight this bias? And I think 273 00:13:38,956 --> 00:13:41,916 Speaker 1: it's really tough, Like it's tricky myself, Like I'll say, 274 00:13:42,036 --> 00:13:44,116 Speaker 1: you know, I know all the data about this stuff, 275 00:13:44,156 --> 00:13:47,276 Speaker 1: but I still share these intuitions. Right, every time I 276 00:13:47,316 --> 00:13:49,516 Speaker 1: say no to a talk that was going to, you know, 277 00:13:49,556 --> 00:13:51,556 Speaker 1: give me a nice honorarium, I'm kind of like, oh gosh, 278 00:13:51,636 --> 00:13:52,356 Speaker 1: I'm like saying. 279 00:13:52,236 --> 00:13:52,716 Speaker 2: No to money. 280 00:13:52,796 --> 00:13:55,236 Speaker 1: What does that mean? Or every time I turn down 281 00:13:55,316 --> 00:13:57,676 Speaker 1: the opportunity to do something more and more and more 282 00:13:57,716 --> 00:14:00,156 Speaker 1: at work. I know the research, but it's I kind 283 00:14:00,156 --> 00:14:02,036 Speaker 1: of have this twinge of like, oh am I going 284 00:14:02,116 --> 00:14:03,596 Speaker 1: to regret this? You know, is this going to be 285 00:14:03,636 --> 00:14:06,756 Speaker 1: the last opportunity I get? Right? So I completely get it, 286 00:14:06,916 --> 00:14:08,716 Speaker 1: But I think something that's really helped to me is 287 00:14:08,756 --> 00:14:10,876 Speaker 1: like no knowing what the science says, right, Like I 288 00:14:10,916 --> 00:14:12,756 Speaker 1: can look at the graph and be like, oh, I 289 00:14:12,796 --> 00:14:14,956 Speaker 1: see I'm not going to be that much happier if 290 00:14:14,996 --> 00:14:18,116 Speaker 1: I double my income, or I've read the studies showing 291 00:14:18,556 --> 00:14:21,316 Speaker 1: of what's called the arrival fallacy, where we think I'll 292 00:14:21,316 --> 00:14:23,916 Speaker 1: be happy when I'll be happy when I get a promotion, 293 00:14:24,156 --> 00:14:26,036 Speaker 1: or I'll be happy when I make this much money, 294 00:14:26,236 --> 00:14:29,516 Speaker 1: and study after study shows that we just misperceived, that 295 00:14:29,596 --> 00:14:32,356 Speaker 1: we just are wrong about what our predictions about what's 296 00:14:32,396 --> 00:14:34,276 Speaker 1: really going to make us happy. And so for me, 297 00:14:34,636 --> 00:14:37,476 Speaker 1: hearing the studies can be kind of helpful because you're like, Okay, 298 00:14:37,836 --> 00:14:39,916 Speaker 1: I know the research shows that I'm wrong. Like I 299 00:14:39,956 --> 00:14:42,836 Speaker 1: can't change my kind of intuition that I have about 300 00:14:42,836 --> 00:14:45,036 Speaker 1: this stuff, but I'm going to kind of not follow 301 00:14:45,076 --> 00:14:47,116 Speaker 1: my intuition. I'm going to kind of follow what I 302 00:14:47,116 --> 00:14:48,876 Speaker 1: think is right. And then often when you do that, 303 00:14:48,956 --> 00:14:50,956 Speaker 1: you get new data to be like, oh, actually that 304 00:14:51,196 --> 00:14:53,476 Speaker 1: opportunity that I turned down so i'd have more time 305 00:14:53,476 --> 00:14:55,876 Speaker 1: with my family, that was actually a good move, right, 306 00:14:55,916 --> 00:14:58,516 Speaker 1: Like that actually did make me happy, Or like that, no, 307 00:14:58,836 --> 00:15:01,956 Speaker 1: I said in my calendar, that feels great. When I 308 00:15:02,196 --> 00:15:03,596 Speaker 1: kind of noticed, like oh that was when I was 309 00:15:03,596 --> 00:15:05,156 Speaker 1: supposed to take that trip where I was supposed to 310 00:15:05,196 --> 00:15:07,116 Speaker 1: have that meeting, it's like, oh, this feels great to 311 00:15:07,116 --> 00:15:08,676 Speaker 1: have a little bit more free time. And so I 312 00:15:08,676 --> 00:15:10,916 Speaker 1: think when you start to see the outcomes of doing 313 00:15:10,916 --> 00:15:14,276 Speaker 1: things a little differently, you can get your own data like, hey, 314 00:15:14,316 --> 00:15:15,916 Speaker 1: this is working better than I expected. 315 00:15:17,036 --> 00:15:19,996 Speaker 2: Lottie, you said something so interesting about looking at the 316 00:15:20,116 --> 00:15:24,036 Speaker 2: data looking at grafts. Are you ever concerned about over 317 00:15:24,156 --> 00:15:26,556 Speaker 2: pathologizing the science of happiness. 318 00:15:26,836 --> 00:15:29,316 Speaker 1: One of the things that's great about this particular form 319 00:15:29,356 --> 00:15:32,756 Speaker 1: of science, right, is that it's based on people's subjective reports. 320 00:15:32,916 --> 00:15:35,196 Speaker 1: In some ways, these are people who are saying, you know, hey, 321 00:15:35,236 --> 00:15:36,516 Speaker 1: at a scale of one to ten, this is how 322 00:15:36,516 --> 00:15:38,876 Speaker 1: I feel about happiness and so on. That means it's 323 00:15:38,956 --> 00:15:41,436 Speaker 1: kind of taking away some of the experience. Right, If 324 00:15:41,436 --> 00:15:44,676 Speaker 1: I had richer narrative reports, obviously we would learn more about, 325 00:15:44,796 --> 00:15:47,876 Speaker 1: you know, all the nuances of people's subjective experiences. But 326 00:15:47,956 --> 00:15:50,316 Speaker 1: because like what the research is doing is really getting 327 00:15:50,316 --> 00:15:53,236 Speaker 1: people's actual opinions of what's going on, I think I 328 00:15:53,236 --> 00:15:55,676 Speaker 1: can actually be a powerful way to really understand how 329 00:15:55,716 --> 00:15:58,516 Speaker 1: people are feeling. So I'm a little bit less worried 330 00:15:58,516 --> 00:16:01,596 Speaker 1: about the kind of pathologizing. I think it definitely is 331 00:16:01,636 --> 00:16:05,756 Speaker 1: missing something about people's complete experiences, obviously, but it does 332 00:16:05,836 --> 00:16:07,836 Speaker 1: let us get a kind of important glimpse that I 333 00:16:07,876 --> 00:16:10,116 Speaker 1: think has been at least for me, really helpful as 334 00:16:10,156 --> 00:16:12,196 Speaker 1: I kind of puzzle through what's the right way to 335 00:16:12,236 --> 00:16:13,836 Speaker 1: live a healthy and a happy life. 336 00:16:20,396 --> 00:16:23,396 Speaker 2: You know, this is a great segue into bringing culture 337 00:16:23,476 --> 00:16:27,476 Speaker 2: and cultural nuances into the idea of happiness. Now. I 338 00:16:27,516 --> 00:16:31,476 Speaker 2: grew up in Pakistan, a collectivist society. Happiness is defined 339 00:16:31,636 --> 00:16:35,716 Speaker 2: very differently there. It is less materialistic in some ways, right, 340 00:16:35,796 --> 00:16:39,516 Speaker 2: So spending time with your parents, with your grandparents, siblings, 341 00:16:39,836 --> 00:16:45,036 Speaker 2: having extended relationships is in a way manifestation of happiness. 342 00:16:45,116 --> 00:16:47,876 Speaker 2: And then you come to the US, and I felt 343 00:16:48,196 --> 00:16:53,316 Speaker 2: very lonely in the beginning. I felt disoriented. I recognized 344 00:16:53,356 --> 00:16:56,236 Speaker 2: my depression and anxiety more in the US than in 345 00:16:56,276 --> 00:16:59,796 Speaker 2: Pakistan because I was always surrounded by family and friends. 346 00:17:00,396 --> 00:17:04,756 Speaker 2: What differences have you seen across different cultures, especially Eastern 347 00:17:04,916 --> 00:17:06,236 Speaker 2: versus Western cultures. 348 00:17:07,076 --> 00:17:08,876 Speaker 1: I think this is a really great question. It's actually 349 00:17:08,916 --> 00:17:11,356 Speaker 1: one are starting to get you a better handle on 350 00:17:11,476 --> 00:17:13,516 Speaker 1: right where you're doing the right studies with big enough 351 00:17:13,556 --> 00:17:16,836 Speaker 1: samples of people from different cultures. One of the best 352 00:17:17,076 --> 00:17:19,476 Speaker 1: research tools that we have to look at this comes 353 00:17:19,476 --> 00:17:22,396 Speaker 1: from this report that's known as the World Happiness Report, 354 00:17:22,516 --> 00:17:25,116 Speaker 1: where they survey all these things about people's emotion and 355 00:17:25,196 --> 00:17:28,516 Speaker 1: happiness across all kinds of different countries. And what they 356 00:17:28,556 --> 00:17:31,036 Speaker 1: find in the report is pretty interesting. You know, first 357 00:17:31,036 --> 00:17:34,196 Speaker 1: of all, there is great variance and happiness across cultures. 358 00:17:34,436 --> 00:17:36,196 Speaker 1: They do things with the World Happiness Report where they 359 00:17:36,236 --> 00:17:38,636 Speaker 1: rank the different countries in terms of their happiness, which 360 00:17:38,636 --> 00:17:40,676 Speaker 1: I think gets a lot of headlines but misses a 361 00:17:40,676 --> 00:17:42,916 Speaker 1: lot of the nuance. But when you do those rankings, 362 00:17:42,956 --> 00:17:45,716 Speaker 1: you often find that Scandinavian countries kind of kind of 363 00:17:45,716 --> 00:17:48,236 Speaker 1: out happiest, you know, Norway, Denmark, those are the ones 364 00:17:48,236 --> 00:17:50,356 Speaker 1: that are happy. But then countries that you might not 365 00:17:50,636 --> 00:17:52,996 Speaker 1: expect you know, so countries in South America, places like 366 00:17:52,996 --> 00:17:55,276 Speaker 1: Costa Rica and so on, tend to be a little 367 00:17:55,316 --> 00:17:57,796 Speaker 1: bit happier and so on, at least relative to the US. 368 00:17:58,116 --> 00:18:00,996 Speaker 1: And so often what you get from that is to say, Okay, 369 00:18:01,036 --> 00:18:03,876 Speaker 1: what are the happier countries doing a little bit differently? 370 00:18:04,236 --> 00:18:06,116 Speaker 1: And what you find is they're prioritizing some of the 371 00:18:06,156 --> 00:18:08,836 Speaker 1: same things you noticed about your kind of home life 372 00:18:08,876 --> 00:18:11,116 Speaker 1: back in the day, which is that like you're prioritizing 373 00:18:11,156 --> 00:18:14,076 Speaker 1: things like social connection. Family is you know, kind of 374 00:18:14,116 --> 00:18:17,076 Speaker 1: considered more valuable than work. When those two things come 375 00:18:17,116 --> 00:18:19,836 Speaker 1: into conflict, famili is always going to win out. People 376 00:18:19,836 --> 00:18:23,156 Speaker 1: are around other people more often, so there's much less loneliness, 377 00:18:23,196 --> 00:18:26,396 Speaker 1: much more social connection, and there's cultures that tend to 378 00:18:26,436 --> 00:18:28,156 Speaker 1: be happier, tend to be a little bit more on 379 00:18:28,196 --> 00:18:30,836 Speaker 1: the collective side, right. You know, you think of Scandinavian 380 00:18:30,876 --> 00:18:33,596 Speaker 1: countries and they have things like universal income and like 381 00:18:33,716 --> 00:18:36,036 Speaker 1: allowing to kind of help other people. Right. It's not 382 00:18:36,116 --> 00:18:38,716 Speaker 1: kind of like you live and die by your own 383 00:18:38,836 --> 00:18:41,796 Speaker 1: sort of hard work alone. Right. It takes a village 384 00:18:41,996 --> 00:18:45,716 Speaker 1: kind of approach rate, Yes, exactly. And so I think 385 00:18:45,796 --> 00:18:48,236 Speaker 1: when we start looking at those cultural differences. One thing 386 00:18:48,276 --> 00:18:50,676 Speaker 1: we can say is like, hang on, maybe the values 387 00:18:50,676 --> 00:18:52,796 Speaker 1: that we have in the US, this kind of super 388 00:18:52,796 --> 00:18:55,996 Speaker 1: individualism and capitalism at all costs, you know, maybe we're 389 00:18:56,036 --> 00:18:58,436 Speaker 1: kind of missing something that really does matter for our 390 00:18:58,476 --> 00:19:01,716 Speaker 1: actual happiness. And so I think these kinds of comparisons 391 00:19:01,716 --> 00:19:04,796 Speaker 1: across countries can be really powerful. I think another thing 392 00:19:04,876 --> 00:19:07,556 Speaker 1: we see in these comparisons across countries is that it's 393 00:19:07,596 --> 00:19:11,476 Speaker 1: not all about the individual happiness. Like, what's happening politically 394 00:19:11,596 --> 00:19:14,556 Speaker 1: obviously matters a lot, you know, So the equality of 395 00:19:14,596 --> 00:19:16,756 Speaker 1: a country seems to matter a lot. The trust that 396 00:19:16,796 --> 00:19:19,196 Speaker 1: people have in government matters a lot. That's actually one 397 00:19:19,236 --> 00:19:21,276 Speaker 1: of the reasons in the United States that we've dropped 398 00:19:21,276 --> 00:19:23,516 Speaker 1: a lot in our rankings of happiness is because there's 399 00:19:23,596 --> 00:19:26,836 Speaker 1: less and less trust in the political process, trust of 400 00:19:26,836 --> 00:19:29,356 Speaker 1: our fellow man, with all the political polarization we see 401 00:19:29,356 --> 00:19:32,076 Speaker 1: in the country. And so I think also these kind 402 00:19:32,116 --> 00:19:34,716 Speaker 1: of cultural comparisons make us realize, hang on, you know, 403 00:19:34,756 --> 00:19:36,756 Speaker 1: A lot of the strategies are about, well, hey, you 404 00:19:36,756 --> 00:19:39,676 Speaker 1: you know, you change your personal behaviors and your personal mindsets. 405 00:19:39,836 --> 00:19:42,036 Speaker 1: But also we need to think about the structural issues 406 00:19:42,076 --> 00:19:44,476 Speaker 1: that people face and the political issues that people face 407 00:19:44,676 --> 00:19:46,556 Speaker 1: if we really want everyone to be as happy as 408 00:19:46,596 --> 00:19:47,156 Speaker 1: they can. 409 00:19:46,996 --> 00:19:55,036 Speaker 2: Be, I want to cycle back to young folks. There's 410 00:19:55,076 --> 00:19:57,996 Speaker 2: so much to talk about when we think about gen 411 00:19:58,116 --> 00:20:01,436 Speaker 2: zs in terms of their politics. Right, they are looking 412 00:20:01,596 --> 00:20:05,956 Speaker 2: more and more towards their friends as being politically aligned 413 00:20:06,036 --> 00:20:09,916 Speaker 2: with them, moradly aligned with them, Right, So that's a 414 00:20:10,116 --> 00:20:13,716 Speaker 2: measure of how they choose friendships. How do you think 415 00:20:13,756 --> 00:20:17,196 Speaker 2: that redefines happiness for them? Because they are putting a 416 00:20:17,196 --> 00:20:20,236 Speaker 2: lot of pressure not just on themselves but on their 417 00:20:20,276 --> 00:20:24,356 Speaker 2: friends and friends of friends. And also how does social 418 00:20:24,396 --> 00:20:26,916 Speaker 2: media play into all of this. They think they are 419 00:20:26,916 --> 00:20:30,076 Speaker 2: not lonely because they are on social media and they're scrolling, 420 00:20:30,116 --> 00:20:33,996 Speaker 2: but then they're basically doom scrolling, right, It's like enragement 421 00:20:34,076 --> 00:20:36,996 Speaker 2: is equal to engagement kind of deal. What are some 422 00:20:37,156 --> 00:20:40,876 Speaker 2: of the things you're seeing, Laurie within that realm? And 423 00:20:41,036 --> 00:20:43,996 Speaker 2: what is your advice to any young person who's listening 424 00:20:44,036 --> 00:20:45,356 Speaker 2: to this podcast right now? 425 00:20:45,796 --> 00:20:47,676 Speaker 1: So I'll take the second one first, This idea of 426 00:20:47,716 --> 00:20:49,756 Speaker 1: you know, how is social media and our technology in 427 00:20:49,796 --> 00:20:52,396 Speaker 1: general honestly kind of affecting our happiness? You know, one 428 00:20:52,396 --> 00:20:54,996 Speaker 1: of the biggest predictors of people's happiness is our sense 429 00:20:55,036 --> 00:20:57,756 Speaker 1: of social connection, our sense of true social ties, having 430 00:20:57,836 --> 00:20:59,996 Speaker 1: people that you can count on, that you really care about, 431 00:20:59,996 --> 00:21:02,316 Speaker 1: and just being around other people in real life. You know, 432 00:21:02,356 --> 00:21:05,476 Speaker 1: in theory, social media and our technology, our phones in general, 433 00:21:05,516 --> 00:21:07,276 Speaker 1: we're supposed to help with that, right, We're supposed to 434 00:21:07,316 --> 00:21:09,596 Speaker 1: be able to, you know, even be more social connected. 435 00:21:09,636 --> 00:21:11,996 Speaker 1: That's why it's called social media. But I think by 436 00:21:12,036 --> 00:21:15,516 Speaker 1: and large, what these tools are doing is more disconnecting people, 437 00:21:15,516 --> 00:21:18,076 Speaker 1: at least in real life or especially in real time. 438 00:21:18,156 --> 00:21:20,356 Speaker 1: It turns out you don't necessarily need to connect in 439 00:21:20,356 --> 00:21:23,956 Speaker 1: real life to get the kind of social connection nutrition 440 00:21:24,116 --> 00:21:26,076 Speaker 1: that kind of comes with being with other people, but 441 00:21:26,156 --> 00:21:27,796 Speaker 1: you need to do it in real time. You know, 442 00:21:27,876 --> 00:21:29,836 Speaker 1: you and I are right now talking, you know, not 443 00:21:29,916 --> 00:21:31,436 Speaker 1: we're not in the same room, in the same studio. 444 00:21:31,476 --> 00:21:34,316 Speaker 1: We're talking across with the podcast software, and research shows 445 00:21:34,356 --> 00:21:36,036 Speaker 1: that's pretty good, right, because we're kind of you can 446 00:21:36,076 --> 00:21:38,116 Speaker 1: see each other's facial expressions, we're kind of talking in 447 00:21:38,156 --> 00:21:40,316 Speaker 1: real time. Doesn't work as much if you're just like 448 00:21:40,396 --> 00:21:43,956 Speaker 1: texting or posting, you know, a comment on someone's Instagram feed, 449 00:21:44,116 --> 00:21:46,716 Speaker 1: or you know, scrolling through TikTok videos or something that's 450 00:21:46,796 --> 00:21:49,516 Speaker 1: not as nutritious in terms of our psychology of what 451 00:21:49,556 --> 00:21:51,716 Speaker 1: we need for social connection. And so I think that 452 00:21:51,836 --> 00:21:54,116 Speaker 1: one of the biggest hits that people get from social 453 00:21:54,156 --> 00:21:56,676 Speaker 1: media is that it's just an opportunity cost on hanging 454 00:21:56,676 --> 00:21:58,876 Speaker 1: out with each other in real life. You know, how 455 00:21:58,916 --> 00:22:01,036 Speaker 1: often have you seen a group of young people are 456 00:22:01,076 --> 00:22:03,236 Speaker 1: honestly a group of adults for that matter, like sitting 457 00:22:03,236 --> 00:22:05,476 Speaker 1: around to dinner table and everybody's get there for you know, 458 00:22:05,476 --> 00:22:07,036 Speaker 1: they're with each other in real life, but they're not 459 00:22:07,076 --> 00:22:10,156 Speaker 1: connecting in real life because they're looking at their phones, right, 460 00:22:10,156 --> 00:22:12,236 Speaker 1: And so that's a big hit. I think social media 461 00:22:12,276 --> 00:22:14,196 Speaker 1: is also a big hit we know for young people 462 00:22:14,276 --> 00:22:16,396 Speaker 1: just in terms of their sleep. Making sure you're getting 463 00:22:16,396 --> 00:22:18,996 Speaker 1: the appropriate amount of good sleep is super important for 464 00:22:19,036 --> 00:22:21,556 Speaker 1: our mental health. And these days, what you find, as 465 00:22:21,556 --> 00:22:24,036 Speaker 1: many students claim when young people claim not to be 466 00:22:24,076 --> 00:22:26,436 Speaker 1: sleeping as much because like they're on their phones and 467 00:22:26,436 --> 00:22:28,636 Speaker 1: they're staying up late at night watching TikTok videos and 468 00:22:28,676 --> 00:22:30,876 Speaker 1: other kind of screen time things. So I think there's 469 00:22:30,876 --> 00:22:34,196 Speaker 1: lots of reasons our social media is hurting happiness generally, 470 00:22:34,276 --> 00:22:37,196 Speaker 1: and that hit on happiness is especially bad for young people. 471 00:22:37,596 --> 00:22:39,956 Speaker 1: But I think the loneliness hit that young people are 472 00:22:39,996 --> 00:22:42,476 Speaker 1: going through kind of gets to your first question about 473 00:22:42,556 --> 00:22:44,556 Speaker 1: kind of, you know, what's happening with young people kind 474 00:22:44,556 --> 00:22:47,436 Speaker 1: of feeling like it's harder to kind of connect with 475 00:22:47,476 --> 00:22:50,316 Speaker 1: people across the political divide. I think that's a generation 476 00:22:50,396 --> 00:22:53,956 Speaker 1: that's heading the most hit of the political polarization we're experiencing. 477 00:22:54,356 --> 00:22:56,516 Speaker 1: And I think that that winds up being really tricky 478 00:22:56,556 --> 00:22:58,836 Speaker 1: because it means that we're not kind of getting the 479 00:22:58,996 --> 00:23:01,436 Speaker 1: usual social connection we get. I think that people feel 480 00:23:01,476 --> 00:23:03,476 Speaker 1: really limited in the number of friends they can make 481 00:23:03,516 --> 00:23:05,596 Speaker 1: and who understands them and so on, and I think 482 00:23:05,596 --> 00:23:08,436 Speaker 1: that just contributes to the loneliness crisis that we're seeing 483 00:23:08,436 --> 00:23:13,796 Speaker 1: among young people today. 484 00:23:13,876 --> 00:23:18,076 Speaker 2: You've talked about third spaces for younger people. How important 485 00:23:18,196 --> 00:23:21,436 Speaker 2: are those third spaces and whose responsibility is it to 486 00:23:21,476 --> 00:23:24,876 Speaker 2: build those government societies individuals. 487 00:23:25,316 --> 00:23:28,116 Speaker 1: So third spaces is a term that political scientists and 488 00:23:28,156 --> 00:23:31,076 Speaker 1: sociologists us to talk about places that are not your 489 00:23:31,156 --> 00:23:33,556 Speaker 1: home and not your work if you're an adult, that 490 00:23:33,636 --> 00:23:36,356 Speaker 1: you can be around people you know and hang out 491 00:23:36,356 --> 00:23:38,436 Speaker 1: with one another a lot, right, So I think of 492 00:23:38,556 --> 00:23:40,796 Speaker 1: in my youth, there were third spaces like the mall 493 00:23:40,836 --> 00:23:42,276 Speaker 1: we were in the nineties, you just go to the 494 00:23:42,356 --> 00:23:43,916 Speaker 1: mall and people would be at the mall and everyone 495 00:23:43,916 --> 00:23:45,956 Speaker 1: would see each other. It wasn't work. It wasn't you know, 496 00:23:46,036 --> 00:23:48,036 Speaker 1: a home or a school, but it was like a 497 00:23:48,036 --> 00:23:49,596 Speaker 1: place that I could go that I knew. I would 498 00:23:49,636 --> 00:23:51,996 Speaker 1: run into people that I knew who were my age 499 00:23:51,996 --> 00:23:54,916 Speaker 1: and similar like my did things. I think even when 500 00:23:54,916 --> 00:23:56,716 Speaker 1: I grew up in the nineties, there were less third 501 00:23:56,716 --> 00:23:59,396 Speaker 1: places than there were in the heyday of third places, 502 00:23:59,476 --> 00:24:01,516 Speaker 1: which is kind of in the nineteen fifties and sixties, 503 00:24:01,556 --> 00:24:04,436 Speaker 1: where you had lots of churches and lions clubs and 504 00:24:04,516 --> 00:24:08,156 Speaker 1: barbershops and just places where people got together all the time. 505 00:24:08,316 --> 00:24:10,756 Speaker 1: The joke is from that nineties TV show Cheers of like, 506 00:24:10,796 --> 00:24:12,716 Speaker 1: you know, the place where everybody knows your name, right, 507 00:24:12,716 --> 00:24:14,316 Speaker 1: that's kind of what you're going for with a good 508 00:24:14,396 --> 00:24:17,236 Speaker 1: third place. And the evidence really suggests that third places 509 00:24:17,276 --> 00:24:19,756 Speaker 1: have been going away from the nineteen fifties to now. 510 00:24:19,756 --> 00:24:22,516 Speaker 1: If you just plot the number of churches or bowling 511 00:24:22,596 --> 00:24:25,156 Speaker 1: leagues or barber shops, right, those things have gone down 512 00:24:25,236 --> 00:24:27,676 Speaker 1: over time to the point that our young people say, 513 00:24:27,716 --> 00:24:29,076 Speaker 1: you know, one of the reasons I don't get together 514 00:24:29,116 --> 00:24:30,636 Speaker 1: with other people is like, I have nowhere to go, 515 00:24:30,756 --> 00:24:33,236 Speaker 1: right We have to go somewhere where you spend money, right, Like, 516 00:24:33,276 --> 00:24:35,196 Speaker 1: It's kind of there's not these kind of free places 517 00:24:35,236 --> 00:24:37,316 Speaker 1: you can go to just be around other people as 518 00:24:37,316 --> 00:24:39,316 Speaker 1: often right now. And I think that, you know, the 519 00:24:39,316 --> 00:24:41,596 Speaker 1: evidence really suggests that that's a bummer. It's a bummer 520 00:24:41,636 --> 00:24:44,276 Speaker 1: for our loneliness. It's a bummer for our ability to 521 00:24:44,396 --> 00:24:47,796 Speaker 1: like connect across different kinds of people. If you're going 522 00:24:47,836 --> 00:24:50,276 Speaker 1: to your church, your barbershop, you're likely to see somebody 523 00:24:50,276 --> 00:24:52,236 Speaker 1: who like, maybe has a different background than you, or 524 00:24:52,236 --> 00:24:54,356 Speaker 1: maybe a different political belief than you, and so on. 525 00:24:54,476 --> 00:24:56,636 Speaker 1: I think we just get that less and less often. 526 00:24:56,916 --> 00:24:59,396 Speaker 1: We have less third places to kind of connect in 527 00:24:59,476 --> 00:25:01,956 Speaker 1: these you know, kind of comfortable, leisurely ways where we're 528 00:25:01,996 --> 00:25:04,156 Speaker 1: not really talking about politics, but it kind of comes 529 00:25:04,236 --> 00:25:06,636 Speaker 1: up in this sort of subtle way. And so without 530 00:25:06,676 --> 00:25:09,356 Speaker 1: those third places, I think we're becoming more lonely, more 531 00:25:09,356 --> 00:25:12,076 Speaker 1: politically polarized, and so on. In terms of who should 532 00:25:12,076 --> 00:25:14,756 Speaker 1: fix that, I think everybody should fix that. There's a 533 00:25:14,836 --> 00:25:17,996 Speaker 1: role that we have as individuals to create these spaces, 534 00:25:18,276 --> 00:25:20,516 Speaker 1: and I think we can do more than we often expect. 535 00:25:20,516 --> 00:25:23,276 Speaker 1: I have a friend here where I live in Massachusetts. 536 00:25:23,316 --> 00:25:25,716 Speaker 1: Who a while ago now it's kind of two decades 537 00:25:25,796 --> 00:25:27,996 Speaker 1: running started this thing that he calls Monday Movie Night, 538 00:25:28,196 --> 00:25:30,476 Speaker 1: and every Monday Movie Night, like he just invites a 539 00:25:30,476 --> 00:25:32,356 Speaker 1: bunch of people to come over and watch movies and 540 00:25:32,356 --> 00:25:34,516 Speaker 1: people make a kind of collective you know, kind of 541 00:25:34,516 --> 00:25:37,116 Speaker 1: healthy meal, like a big chili or something, and everybody 542 00:25:37,116 --> 00:25:40,836 Speaker 1: gets together. And it's really been so nice to be 543 00:25:40,956 --> 00:25:43,036 Speaker 1: part of this because it's just like every Monday, I 544 00:25:43,076 --> 00:25:45,236 Speaker 1: know there'll be people there, and you know, you can 545 00:25:45,316 --> 00:25:47,276 Speaker 1: kind of connect with these kind of interesting folks who 546 00:25:47,276 --> 00:25:49,316 Speaker 1: are doing stuff. And so I think there's there's a 547 00:25:49,356 --> 00:25:51,556 Speaker 1: way that we as individuals can set up our own 548 00:25:51,596 --> 00:25:54,396 Speaker 1: third places and really kind of put time into doing that, 549 00:25:54,716 --> 00:25:58,276 Speaker 1: making these spaces that. But there's also lots of sociological 550 00:25:58,316 --> 00:26:01,876 Speaker 1: research suggesting the power of governments being really involved and 551 00:26:01,956 --> 00:26:05,796 Speaker 1: creating third places right and just organizations kind of doing that. 552 00:26:05,916 --> 00:26:08,116 Speaker 1: Many of the most famous third places aren't ones that 553 00:26:08,116 --> 00:26:10,996 Speaker 1: are necessarily created by an individual, for like, you know, 554 00:26:11,036 --> 00:26:14,636 Speaker 1: a social group around their neighborhood, but by institutions, you know, 555 00:26:14,716 --> 00:26:17,876 Speaker 1: so things like the Lions Club or the NAACP or 556 00:26:17,916 --> 00:26:20,076 Speaker 1: the kind of communal barbershop or something like that. 557 00:26:24,036 --> 00:26:26,436 Speaker 3: Is there any such thing as a good argument anymore, 558 00:26:26,596 --> 00:26:30,076 Speaker 3: one with sharp perspectives, fair and tough questions that leaves 559 00:26:30,116 --> 00:26:33,356 Speaker 3: you free to come to your own conclusions. Thoughtful discussion 560 00:26:33,636 --> 00:26:36,996 Speaker 3: is missing almost everywhere in our lives, but you'll find 561 00:26:37,036 --> 00:26:40,396 Speaker 3: it on hear Me Out, Slate's new podcast. I'm your host, 562 00:26:40,436 --> 00:26:41,156 Speaker 3: Celeste Headley. 563 00:26:41,316 --> 00:26:42,316 Speaker 2: Each week, we'll. 564 00:26:42,196 --> 00:26:45,036 Speaker 3: Talk, we'll listen, and we'll ask the hard questions on 565 00:26:45,196 --> 00:26:48,516 Speaker 3: issues that matter. Every Tuesday on Slate's hear Me Out 566 00:26:48,636 --> 00:26:50,316 Speaker 3: with Celeste Heedley, Join us. 567 00:27:00,156 --> 00:27:02,596 Speaker 2: Lari, I want to talk a little bit about your 568 00:27:02,756 --> 00:27:06,636 Speaker 2: own relationship with happiness. You've talked about how people should 569 00:27:06,636 --> 00:27:10,756 Speaker 2: find happiness and little things. Do seek happiness or does 570 00:27:10,836 --> 00:27:15,036 Speaker 2: happiness come to you through activities that you're just generally doing? 571 00:27:15,196 --> 00:27:19,116 Speaker 2: Like is it a conscious mind seeking happiness or it 572 00:27:19,196 --> 00:27:21,076 Speaker 2: just comes organically to you? 573 00:27:21,076 --> 00:27:23,196 Speaker 1: You know, if I've been having a rough week, one 574 00:27:23,236 --> 00:27:24,836 Speaker 1: thing that I often do is to say, Okay, how 575 00:27:24,836 --> 00:27:26,676 Speaker 1: can I get a little bit more social connection in, 576 00:27:26,916 --> 00:27:28,516 Speaker 1: Like which friend do I need to call this week? 577 00:27:28,556 --> 00:27:30,036 Speaker 1: Who do I need to see to kind of get 578 00:27:30,036 --> 00:27:32,276 Speaker 1: that social connection in? And so in some ways it's 579 00:27:32,316 --> 00:27:35,316 Speaker 1: both organic to certain activities that we engage in that 580 00:27:35,356 --> 00:27:38,356 Speaker 1: they feel good and boost our positive emotion and increase 581 00:27:38,396 --> 00:27:40,716 Speaker 1: our satisfaction with life. But if we're not getting those 582 00:27:40,796 --> 00:27:44,556 Speaker 1: kind of behaviors in naturally, we can really intentionally decide, hey, 583 00:27:44,596 --> 00:27:46,916 Speaker 1: I'm going to do this more often, and the consequence 584 00:27:46,996 --> 00:27:49,076 Speaker 1: usually is a boosted sense of well being. 585 00:27:49,316 --> 00:27:52,596 Speaker 2: So recently, what is one thing that made you happy? 586 00:27:53,236 --> 00:27:55,676 Speaker 1: At this lovely breakfast with this friend of mine from college? 587 00:27:55,676 --> 00:27:57,956 Speaker 1: And I had a really good like bagel sandwich, and 588 00:27:57,996 --> 00:28:00,276 Speaker 1: I took a moment to like savor like this is great, 589 00:28:00,316 --> 00:28:03,116 Speaker 1: like that bagel's really crunchy, Like just the act of 590 00:28:03,156 --> 00:28:06,236 Speaker 1: that paying attention, being a little bit more mindful in presence, 591 00:28:06,436 --> 00:28:08,916 Speaker 1: it can kind of boost your positive emotion and make 592 00:28:08,916 --> 00:28:11,916 Speaker 1: you experience things like gratitude, this sort of thankfulness for 593 00:28:11,996 --> 00:28:14,836 Speaker 1: having this interesting experience. And that's just a sort of 594 00:28:14,876 --> 00:28:18,516 Speaker 1: small retuning of our attention to pay attention to stuff 595 00:28:18,516 --> 00:28:20,596 Speaker 1: that feels nice, and then all of a sudden you 596 00:28:20,636 --> 00:28:21,596 Speaker 1: start feeling better. 597 00:28:29,476 --> 00:28:33,356 Speaker 2: Do you differentiate between being content and being happy? And 598 00:28:33,716 --> 00:28:36,316 Speaker 2: is happiness really a need or is it a want? 599 00:28:37,236 --> 00:28:39,116 Speaker 1: When I think of happiness, I think of it as 600 00:28:39,276 --> 00:28:42,436 Speaker 1: kind of being almost like happiness with a capital age. 601 00:28:42,476 --> 00:28:44,876 Speaker 1: It's kind of equivalent to sort of living a good life, 602 00:28:44,916 --> 00:28:46,916 Speaker 1: living a happy life. And it has these kind of 603 00:28:46,956 --> 00:28:49,636 Speaker 1: two components. One is sort of an emotional component, where 604 00:28:49,676 --> 00:28:51,516 Speaker 1: it's kind of how you feel in your life, and 605 00:28:51,556 --> 00:28:54,076 Speaker 1: the second part is sort of a like thinking component, 606 00:28:54,156 --> 00:28:55,796 Speaker 1: like how you think your life is going. If you 607 00:28:55,876 --> 00:28:57,636 Speaker 1: kind of feel good in your life and think your 608 00:28:57,636 --> 00:28:59,996 Speaker 1: life is going well, you're living a happy life. This 609 00:29:00,116 --> 00:29:02,436 Speaker 1: term is sort of this kind of big capital age 610 00:29:02,476 --> 00:29:06,476 Speaker 1: term happiness is often equivalent to what like the old Ancients, 611 00:29:06,516 --> 00:29:08,756 Speaker 1: like Aristotle thought about when they thought about things like 612 00:29:08,796 --> 00:29:11,676 Speaker 1: you die minia, like the idea of a good life generally, right. 613 00:29:11,756 --> 00:29:13,436 Speaker 1: So that's kind of what I think about when I 614 00:29:13,516 --> 00:29:16,716 Speaker 1: use the term happiness. When I think of something like contentment, 615 00:29:16,956 --> 00:29:19,116 Speaker 1: I almost see that as like one of the positive 616 00:29:19,116 --> 00:29:22,596 Speaker 1: emotions that makes up happiness. Contentment is just the sense 617 00:29:22,636 --> 00:29:24,676 Speaker 1: that you're kind of at peace in life. It's a 618 00:29:24,756 --> 00:29:27,956 Speaker 1: kind of like low arousal, but really high positive state 619 00:29:28,236 --> 00:29:30,996 Speaker 1: like joy or surprise or sort of laughter might be 620 00:29:31,076 --> 00:29:33,236 Speaker 1: a kind of higher arousal, a high positive state, whereas 621 00:29:33,236 --> 00:29:36,676 Speaker 1: contentment's like low arousal. You're just chilling and everything's fine, 622 00:29:36,956 --> 00:29:39,116 Speaker 1: but things feel good when you sort of reflect on 623 00:29:39,156 --> 00:29:40,996 Speaker 1: how they feel. And so the way I think of 624 00:29:41,076 --> 00:29:44,676 Speaker 1: the connection between the two is contentment is an important 625 00:29:44,676 --> 00:29:46,956 Speaker 1: but one of many important emotions that you want to 626 00:29:46,996 --> 00:29:49,516 Speaker 1: get in to sort of have a happy life, to 627 00:29:49,556 --> 00:29:51,356 Speaker 1: have you diamondia or a good life. 628 00:29:51,636 --> 00:29:55,396 Speaker 2: Laurie, I wonder if other emotions, like grief and loss 629 00:29:55,676 --> 00:30:00,196 Speaker 2: inform people's happiness differently. People who've experienced, say, grief or 630 00:30:00,276 --> 00:30:04,156 Speaker 2: loss look at happiness differently than people who haven't. Have 631 00:30:04,276 --> 00:30:05,676 Speaker 2: you seen that in your studies? 632 00:30:05,996 --> 00:30:08,956 Speaker 1: Definitely. There's a lot of work on a topic that 633 00:30:09,156 --> 00:30:11,756 Speaker 1: researchers called post traumatic growth. You know, so many of 634 00:30:11,836 --> 00:30:13,836 Speaker 1: us have heard this term post traumatic stress. You go 635 00:30:13,876 --> 00:30:17,036 Speaker 1: through some terrible, stressful period and you have these consequences, 636 00:30:17,076 --> 00:30:20,076 Speaker 1: you know, high arousal, high anxiety, and things later on. 637 00:30:20,476 --> 00:30:23,076 Speaker 1: But post traumatic growth are cases where you go through 638 00:30:23,076 --> 00:30:25,876 Speaker 1: something terrible, you go through loss, and you go through grief, 639 00:30:25,956 --> 00:30:29,796 Speaker 1: but on the other side, you experience like a sense 640 00:30:29,916 --> 00:30:33,036 Speaker 1: of growth, right, Like it's not something that you choose 641 00:30:33,116 --> 00:30:35,836 Speaker 1: and you know it sucked, and it's like worth recognizing 642 00:30:35,916 --> 00:30:38,116 Speaker 1: the bad part of it. But like on the other side, 643 00:30:38,116 --> 00:30:41,756 Speaker 1: people self report feeling a deeper sense of connection, a 644 00:30:41,796 --> 00:30:45,316 Speaker 1: deeper sense of spirituality, you know what is meaningful in life, 645 00:30:45,396 --> 00:30:47,316 Speaker 1: you're a deeper sense of purpose and kind of a 646 00:30:47,356 --> 00:30:49,436 Speaker 1: deeper sense that you can sort of go through things. 647 00:30:49,476 --> 00:30:51,436 Speaker 1: I think this term resilience, as I know you've talked 648 00:30:51,436 --> 00:30:54,196 Speaker 1: about in your podcast, is a really really complicated one. 649 00:30:54,356 --> 00:30:56,876 Speaker 1: But people who've gone through to the other side often say, 650 00:30:57,156 --> 00:30:59,476 Speaker 1: I know what I'm capable of now again, I wouldn't 651 00:30:59,516 --> 00:31:01,996 Speaker 1: have chosen that. You know, it's awful, but like, I 652 00:31:01,996 --> 00:31:04,636 Speaker 1: feel like I've grown and I'm stronger on the other side. 653 00:31:04,796 --> 00:31:07,276 Speaker 1: This is what post traumatic growth is. And I think 654 00:31:07,316 --> 00:31:09,036 Speaker 1: one of the cool things about the research on post 655 00:31:09,156 --> 00:31:11,956 Speaker 1: traumatic growth is it shows that that kind of like 656 00:31:12,116 --> 00:31:14,356 Speaker 1: positive thing that you get at the end had to 657 00:31:14,356 --> 00:31:16,636 Speaker 1: come through the struggle. It had to come through the 658 00:31:16,716 --> 00:31:18,836 Speaker 1: dark times and so on. And I think this gets 659 00:31:18,876 --> 00:31:21,716 Speaker 1: to a misconception that we have about positive emotions. I think, 660 00:31:21,836 --> 00:31:24,116 Speaker 1: you know, one big misconception I see when people come 661 00:31:24,116 --> 00:31:26,356 Speaker 1: to my work and happiness is they kind of embrace 662 00:31:26,396 --> 00:31:28,916 Speaker 1: this sort of toxic positivity approach that you know, a 663 00:31:28,916 --> 00:31:32,076 Speaker 1: good life, this happy life is positive emotion all the time. 664 00:31:32,356 --> 00:31:33,916 Speaker 1: But when you look at the science, what you find 665 00:31:33,956 --> 00:31:37,436 Speaker 1: is like that's not true. A good life involves some anxiety, 666 00:31:37,596 --> 00:31:40,996 Speaker 1: involves some loss, It involves some grief, It involves some frustration, 667 00:31:41,196 --> 00:31:43,996 Speaker 1: some justified anger. Right. The way you get to a 668 00:31:44,076 --> 00:31:46,956 Speaker 1: good life is to not just have these negative emotions, 669 00:31:46,956 --> 00:31:49,316 Speaker 1: but really learn from them and push through them to 670 00:31:49,356 --> 00:31:52,156 Speaker 1: see like how they're teachers and so. I think this 671 00:31:52,236 --> 00:31:54,636 Speaker 1: is another misconception we have, just like oh, money and 672 00:31:54,676 --> 00:31:57,356 Speaker 1: successes matters for happiness. I think people think a happy 673 00:31:57,356 --> 00:31:59,316 Speaker 1: life has none of the bad stuff, But a happy 674 00:31:59,356 --> 00:32:01,596 Speaker 1: life includes the bad stuff. The bad stuff is really 675 00:32:01,636 --> 00:32:04,316 Speaker 1: important for getting us to kind of grow and become, 676 00:32:04,436 --> 00:32:06,436 Speaker 1: you know, the people we really want to become someday. 677 00:32:06,756 --> 00:32:10,876 Speaker 2: You're absolutely right, and bad stuff is part of human existence, right. 678 00:32:10,916 --> 00:32:14,516 Speaker 2: We experienced so many different emotions throughout our lives. How 679 00:32:14,556 --> 00:32:18,276 Speaker 2: can we disregard the bad the ugly stuff, because that 680 00:32:18,436 --> 00:32:22,076 Speaker 2: makes up who we are. Do you think being attention 681 00:32:22,276 --> 00:32:25,756 Speaker 2: to the present also matches because a lot of times 682 00:32:25,836 --> 00:32:28,316 Speaker 2: we look at the past and then we look at 683 00:32:28,316 --> 00:32:31,956 Speaker 2: the future. Yesterday I had an argument with my husband. 684 00:32:32,196 --> 00:32:35,316 Speaker 2: I went to bed a little angry. I woke up 685 00:32:35,316 --> 00:32:37,596 Speaker 2: in the morning. I wasn't thinking about it, but it 686 00:32:37,636 --> 00:32:41,636 Speaker 2: was part of my subconscious self, and then my husband 687 00:32:41,676 --> 00:32:44,036 Speaker 2: and I talked and we were like, okay, now we're fine, 688 00:32:44,436 --> 00:32:47,676 Speaker 2: and it changed my mood. How do I start thinking 689 00:32:47,676 --> 00:32:49,636 Speaker 2: about today in this moment? 690 00:32:50,156 --> 00:32:51,996 Speaker 1: Well, it takes some work, right, I mean, I think 691 00:32:52,076 --> 00:32:54,436 Speaker 1: we have brains that are just built to kind of 692 00:32:54,716 --> 00:32:57,036 Speaker 1: mind wander. Can I think about the past, think about 693 00:32:57,076 --> 00:32:59,516 Speaker 1: the future, we're anywhere about the present. But there are 694 00:32:59,516 --> 00:33:02,236 Speaker 1: techniques and you can use to get better about being 695 00:33:02,236 --> 00:33:05,116 Speaker 1: more present. One is a technique that's just called savoring, 696 00:33:05,196 --> 00:33:07,036 Speaker 1: which is just what it sounds like. That was kind 697 00:33:07,036 --> 00:33:08,716 Speaker 1: of what I was doing with my big old this morning. 698 00:33:08,716 --> 00:33:10,676 Speaker 1: We're just like what does this taste like? What does 699 00:33:10,716 --> 00:33:12,796 Speaker 1: this feel like? How would I describe this? You just 700 00:33:12,876 --> 00:33:16,716 Speaker 1: like become force yourself to become curious about whatever is 701 00:33:16,756 --> 00:33:19,236 Speaker 1: going on in the moment. And interestingly, that includes when 702 00:33:19,276 --> 00:33:21,236 Speaker 1: things are bad. One way that we can get through 703 00:33:21,276 --> 00:33:24,756 Speaker 1: bad emotions like grief or anxiety is to really pay attention, like, Okay, 704 00:33:24,756 --> 00:33:27,116 Speaker 1: how does this feel like? My chest is heavy? 705 00:33:27,236 --> 00:33:27,356 Speaker 2: Like? 706 00:33:27,556 --> 00:33:30,396 Speaker 1: You know, my phase feels tight? Right? Like I feel 707 00:33:30,436 --> 00:33:32,836 Speaker 1: like I have pressure like pushing on me. 708 00:33:32,996 --> 00:33:33,156 Speaker 2: Right. 709 00:33:33,196 --> 00:33:35,236 Speaker 1: When you really kind of get to know and be 710 00:33:35,316 --> 00:33:37,916 Speaker 1: present with those negative emotions, that can actually help you 711 00:33:37,956 --> 00:33:39,156 Speaker 1: feel better, So. 712 00:33:39,156 --> 00:33:42,556 Speaker 2: Being super aware of negative emotions or positive emotions for 713 00:33:42,636 --> 00:33:43,116 Speaker 2: that matter. 714 00:33:43,516 --> 00:33:44,996 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's right. I mean I think we 715 00:33:45,116 --> 00:33:47,796 Speaker 1: just kind of don't notice our experience right kind of, 716 00:33:47,836 --> 00:33:50,116 Speaker 1: and that means we don't really get to learn from 717 00:33:50,196 --> 00:33:51,516 Speaker 1: it or get to really feel it. 718 00:33:51,556 --> 00:33:51,756 Speaker 2: You know. 719 00:33:51,876 --> 00:33:53,996 Speaker 1: In some ways, that's really kind of sad, right, that 720 00:33:54,036 --> 00:33:56,516 Speaker 1: we're sort of fast forwarding our life or rewinding our 721 00:33:56,556 --> 00:33:58,596 Speaker 1: life and never kind of just playing it right there. 722 00:33:58,796 --> 00:34:00,556 Speaker 1: So I think, yeah, so savoring and just kind of 723 00:34:00,596 --> 00:34:03,036 Speaker 1: being part of the present moment is powerful. But but 724 00:34:03,036 --> 00:34:05,596 Speaker 1: then a second technique we know works from the researchers. 725 00:34:05,836 --> 00:34:08,276 Speaker 1: You know, so many spiritual techniques for kind of being 726 00:34:08,276 --> 00:34:11,556 Speaker 1: a little bit more present. So practices like meditation or prayer, 727 00:34:11,836 --> 00:34:14,156 Speaker 1: all these practices where you really kind of pay attention, 728 00:34:14,556 --> 00:34:16,756 Speaker 1: you know, to a particular mantra or you know a 729 00:34:16,796 --> 00:34:20,076 Speaker 1: particular set of words and so on. Like those rituals 730 00:34:20,156 --> 00:34:23,076 Speaker 1: the research shows can really build up your presence over time, 731 00:34:23,116 --> 00:34:26,116 Speaker 1: particularly practices like meditation where the practice is really all 732 00:34:26,156 --> 00:34:30,436 Speaker 1: about intentionally noticing the present moment without judgment. Those kinds 733 00:34:30,476 --> 00:34:32,996 Speaker 1: of practices over time like literally change your brain. You 734 00:34:33,036 --> 00:34:35,196 Speaker 1: literally change the amount of gray matter in your brain, 735 00:34:35,516 --> 00:34:37,876 Speaker 1: even if you just start meditating as a novice. 736 00:34:38,156 --> 00:34:42,716 Speaker 2: I'm glad you mentioned spirituality. I feel like spirituality is 737 00:34:42,796 --> 00:34:46,076 Speaker 2: almost frowned upon. When I'm feeling lolow or when I'm 738 00:34:46,076 --> 00:34:49,156 Speaker 2: feeling anxious, I do pray and it calms me down. 739 00:34:49,396 --> 00:34:52,156 Speaker 1: There's actually lots of research, you know, studying kind of 740 00:34:52,156 --> 00:34:55,956 Speaker 1: happiness in people of different religious faiths and religious backgrounds, 741 00:34:56,036 --> 00:34:58,756 Speaker 1: and one of the clear patterns suggests that religious individuals 742 00:34:58,796 --> 00:35:01,596 Speaker 1: tend to be happier. It seems like that happiness, though, 743 00:35:01,716 --> 00:35:04,836 Speaker 1: comes a lot from religious practices. So it comes from 744 00:35:04,836 --> 00:35:07,836 Speaker 1: the not the belief part, but the prayer part, the rituals. 745 00:35:07,836 --> 00:35:11,036 Speaker 1: The rituals exactly go to services, right, you know, taking 746 00:35:11,076 --> 00:35:13,956 Speaker 1: time off, whether it's a sabbath or whatever. Right. And 747 00:35:13,996 --> 00:35:16,236 Speaker 1: what's interesting is it kind of doesn't matter which religion 748 00:35:16,276 --> 00:35:18,396 Speaker 1: it is. You see booths of happiness in people of 749 00:35:18,476 --> 00:35:20,796 Speaker 1: Muslim faith or Buddhist faith, or Catholic or you know, 750 00:35:20,876 --> 00:35:23,316 Speaker 1: Jewish faith all over the board. It kind of doesn't 751 00:35:23,356 --> 00:35:25,596 Speaker 1: matter what rituals you're doing. It's just that you have 752 00:35:25,756 --> 00:35:28,436 Speaker 1: rituals that give you a sense of connection to something 753 00:35:28,596 --> 00:35:31,036 Speaker 1: bigger than you that seem to matter. And so you know, 754 00:35:31,076 --> 00:35:33,916 Speaker 1: I think as we you know, become a more secular society, 755 00:35:33,916 --> 00:35:36,236 Speaker 1: at least especially here in the US, in some ways 756 00:35:36,236 --> 00:35:38,756 Speaker 1: we do that at our peril, right, we're missing out 757 00:35:38,796 --> 00:35:41,596 Speaker 1: on a real path to happiness. That doesn't necessarily mean 758 00:35:41,636 --> 00:35:43,516 Speaker 1: that you have to become religious, but it means that 759 00:35:43,556 --> 00:35:46,036 Speaker 1: if you're not getting your sense of purpose and connection 760 00:35:46,436 --> 00:35:49,036 Speaker 1: from religious faith, you might in those rituals, you might 761 00:35:49,076 --> 00:35:51,396 Speaker 1: need to find other rituals and other ways to get 762 00:35:51,436 --> 00:35:52,276 Speaker 1: a sense of purpose. 763 00:35:52,636 --> 00:35:55,876 Speaker 2: What are some of the other rituals that you've seen 764 00:35:56,036 --> 00:35:58,316 Speaker 2: people follow to the place religion. 765 00:35:58,676 --> 00:36:02,116 Speaker 1: There's a great kind of religious scholar, Casper Turkyle. He 766 00:36:02,156 --> 00:36:05,196 Speaker 1: also has a fabulous podcast who's actually been doing work 767 00:36:05,196 --> 00:36:07,836 Speaker 1: on these kind of other traditions that look a lot 768 00:36:07,916 --> 00:36:10,196 Speaker 1: like faith traditions. For example, Well, he writes a lot 769 00:36:10,236 --> 00:36:13,756 Speaker 1: about CrossFit, which sounds kind of funny, but it's like, 770 00:36:13,876 --> 00:36:15,876 Speaker 1: you know, people go every week and it becomes a 771 00:36:15,916 --> 00:36:17,996 Speaker 1: third place, and it becomes something that you know, you 772 00:36:17,996 --> 00:36:20,516 Speaker 1: have a whole set of values and meaning. It becomes 773 00:36:20,556 --> 00:36:23,196 Speaker 1: a spot where people wind up doing things for each other. 774 00:36:23,236 --> 00:36:25,076 Speaker 1: You know. He talks about these cases of you know, 775 00:36:25,116 --> 00:36:28,076 Speaker 1: somebody in your CrossFit group gets sick and everybody rallies 776 00:36:28,116 --> 00:36:30,276 Speaker 1: and you know, makes food for them and things like that. 777 00:36:30,436 --> 00:36:32,676 Speaker 1: And so what he finds is that you can sometimes 778 00:36:32,716 --> 00:36:37,596 Speaker 1: get these other organizations that work a lot, like faith traditions, 779 00:36:37,636 --> 00:36:39,636 Speaker 1: that have a lot of the same obviously not all 780 00:36:39,676 --> 00:36:42,036 Speaker 1: of the same benefits, but some of the same benefits. 781 00:36:42,356 --> 00:36:43,716 Speaker 2: That's so fascinating. 782 00:36:43,956 --> 00:36:46,196 Speaker 1: As humans get creative, we can come up with lots 783 00:36:46,236 --> 00:36:48,596 Speaker 1: of versions that work that way. 784 00:36:51,956 --> 00:36:54,916 Speaker 2: On a scale of zero to ten, how happy are 785 00:36:54,996 --> 00:36:56,356 Speaker 2: you in the all life? 786 00:36:56,476 --> 00:37:00,516 Speaker 1: And why, Well, I'm usually around like a seven or eight, 787 00:37:00,636 --> 00:37:02,836 Speaker 1: And I think I wasn't that way before. I think 788 00:37:02,836 --> 00:37:04,716 Speaker 1: I'm at a seven or an eight, in part because 789 00:37:04,756 --> 00:37:07,276 Speaker 1: I do engage in all these practices a lot. My 790 00:37:07,356 --> 00:37:09,116 Speaker 1: instinct is not to in the age in as much 791 00:37:09,196 --> 00:37:11,876 Speaker 1: social connection. I'm really not a present person. I'm much 792 00:37:11,916 --> 00:37:14,476 Speaker 1: more RUMINATIV and stuff like. But I think as I've 793 00:37:14,476 --> 00:37:17,516 Speaker 1: studied this more and more, I've recognized how important it 794 00:37:17,596 --> 00:37:20,596 Speaker 1: is to act this stuff like happiness is possible, but 795 00:37:20,676 --> 00:37:23,596 Speaker 1: it takes work. It's just like having a fit body, right, Like, 796 00:37:23,636 --> 00:37:25,636 Speaker 1: you know, like it's possible to eat healthy and go 797 00:37:25,676 --> 00:37:27,236 Speaker 1: to the gym all the time and move your body, 798 00:37:27,276 --> 00:37:29,636 Speaker 1: but you got to put some work in. My analogy 799 00:37:29,676 --> 00:37:31,956 Speaker 1: is that happiness works just like that, like you can 800 00:37:32,036 --> 00:37:34,356 Speaker 1: do it, but it takes kind of constant work and 801 00:37:34,396 --> 00:37:36,796 Speaker 1: constant practice. And that's the thing I think too, is 802 00:37:36,836 --> 00:37:39,516 Speaker 1: that it's just like my colleague Nick Eppley is fond 803 00:37:39,516 --> 00:37:41,996 Speaker 1: of saying that happiness is like a leaky tire. You know, 804 00:37:42,036 --> 00:37:43,796 Speaker 1: It's like you're happy, but then it kind of goes 805 00:37:43,836 --> 00:37:45,676 Speaker 1: down and you have to do something to pump it up. 806 00:37:45,716 --> 00:37:48,636 Speaker 1: And so remembering that your mental health is something that 807 00:37:48,716 --> 00:37:51,396 Speaker 1: takes kind of constant work has been helpful for me 808 00:37:51,436 --> 00:37:53,356 Speaker 1: because it's really allowed me to put that work in 809 00:37:53,756 --> 00:37:55,756 Speaker 1: and the act of doing that has made me happier. 810 00:37:55,796 --> 00:37:57,476 Speaker 1: So I'd say, yeah, I'm like a seven and a 811 00:37:57,516 --> 00:38:07,196 Speaker 1: half eight out of on a ten point happiness scale. 812 00:38:09,116 --> 00:38:13,516 Speaker 2: Give me one habit that people should make part of 813 00:38:13,556 --> 00:38:15,756 Speaker 2: their lives to feel happier. 814 00:38:16,596 --> 00:38:18,756 Speaker 1: Another great one that I think we haven't talked about 815 00:38:18,796 --> 00:38:21,236 Speaker 1: yet is the act of feeling a little bit grateful. 816 00:38:21,596 --> 00:38:23,996 Speaker 1: This is a mindset shift that this science shows because 817 00:38:24,076 --> 00:38:27,196 Speaker 1: really powerful we're real complainers, and I think we become 818 00:38:27,236 --> 00:38:30,036 Speaker 1: complaining socially. Like I use the analogy you know last time, 819 00:38:30,036 --> 00:38:31,996 Speaker 1: you you know, hung out with a friend, like the asked, 820 00:38:32,036 --> 00:38:34,556 Speaker 1: how's it going. Did you immediately list all the blessings 821 00:38:34,556 --> 00:38:36,676 Speaker 1: in life, like if you're in this s us probably no, 822 00:38:36,836 --> 00:38:38,556 Speaker 1: you listed, like you know, all the things that are 823 00:38:38,556 --> 00:38:40,636 Speaker 1: going wrong. You didn't talk about any of your coworkers 824 00:38:40,676 --> 00:38:42,836 Speaker 1: that you adore. You talked about the one coworker that 825 00:38:42,956 --> 00:38:45,196 Speaker 1: like gets on your last nerve and like you know, 826 00:38:45,236 --> 00:38:48,916 Speaker 1: and in general, we have this bias, I think universally 827 00:38:48,916 --> 00:38:51,476 Speaker 1: of us, even more so in the United States, towards 828 00:38:51,476 --> 00:38:54,556 Speaker 1: what you might call undersociality, Like we just don't realize 829 00:38:54,596 --> 00:38:57,876 Speaker 1: the happiness benefits of being social, whether that's expressing our 830 00:38:57,916 --> 00:39:01,396 Speaker 1: gratitude to other people, complimenting other people, trying to help 831 00:39:01,436 --> 00:39:04,716 Speaker 1: other people. We just don't realize how much these kind 832 00:39:04,716 --> 00:39:07,716 Speaker 1: of little social mindset shifts matter so much for making 833 00:39:07,796 --> 00:39:08,516 Speaker 1: us feel better. 834 00:39:09,156 --> 00:39:11,996 Speaker 2: When you mentioned grateful, my mind just went to what 835 00:39:12,036 --> 00:39:15,036 Speaker 2: my mother says. My parents live in Pakistan and I 836 00:39:15,116 --> 00:39:17,596 Speaker 2: talk to them very often. And every time I talk 837 00:39:17,636 --> 00:39:19,836 Speaker 2: to my mom and if I'm feeling low, obviously she 838 00:39:19,996 --> 00:39:22,636 Speaker 2: knows and she always says this to me. She's like, 839 00:39:22,956 --> 00:39:26,156 Speaker 2: be grateful for what you have. Just say it verbally, 840 00:39:26,476 --> 00:39:30,356 Speaker 2: how grateful you are for all that you have, and 841 00:39:30,396 --> 00:39:33,476 Speaker 2: I always brush it off, Laurie, I don't pay attention. 842 00:39:33,636 --> 00:39:36,796 Speaker 2: And I'm like, yeah, how will that make a difference 843 00:39:36,836 --> 00:39:39,836 Speaker 2: in my life? Just saying I am grateful for X 844 00:39:39,996 --> 00:39:43,276 Speaker 2: y Z things. And now when you mentioned it, maybe 845 00:39:43,316 --> 00:39:46,516 Speaker 2: that's a mantra, that's a ritual that I should probably 846 00:39:46,516 --> 00:39:49,876 Speaker 2: incorporate in my daily life, right, just getting up in 847 00:39:49,916 --> 00:39:53,036 Speaker 2: the morning and saying I am grateful for X y 848 00:39:53,196 --> 00:39:54,956 Speaker 2: Z and then starting my day. 849 00:39:55,276 --> 00:39:57,436 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it sounds like your mom's reading the studies, 850 00:39:57,516 --> 00:40:00,556 Speaker 1: because like literally there's literally a study where you have 851 00:40:00,596 --> 00:40:03,076 Speaker 1: people scribble down three to five things are grateful for 852 00:40:03,116 --> 00:40:04,876 Speaker 1: every day in the morning or in the evening. And 853 00:40:04,916 --> 00:40:07,836 Speaker 1: what you find is it within two weeks, people statistically 854 00:40:07,876 --> 00:40:10,796 Speaker 1: report higher subject well being a high level of happiness 855 00:40:10,836 --> 00:40:13,236 Speaker 1: after that. So, like it's just this simple act. And 856 00:40:13,276 --> 00:40:15,636 Speaker 1: it's because one of the problems is like we have 857 00:40:15,756 --> 00:40:18,076 Speaker 1: this mind that's built to be very negative. You know, 858 00:40:18,116 --> 00:40:20,276 Speaker 1: it made sense in our back in the day to 859 00:40:20,356 --> 00:40:22,156 Speaker 1: like notice the bad stuff so we could kind of 860 00:40:22,156 --> 00:40:24,436 Speaker 1: fix it. But that means that there's good stuff in 861 00:40:24,476 --> 00:40:26,556 Speaker 1: our lives that we've kind of just gotten used to. 862 00:40:26,716 --> 00:40:28,796 Speaker 1: We're not getting the kind of happiness benefit from all 863 00:40:28,796 --> 00:40:30,996 Speaker 1: those good things because we don't take time to notice it. 864 00:40:31,236 --> 00:40:33,236 Speaker 1: And yeah, the studies show that just the act of 865 00:40:33,236 --> 00:40:35,276 Speaker 1: what your mom is saying, just take time to notice 866 00:40:35,276 --> 00:40:37,676 Speaker 1: it every morning. Now, all of a sudden, you're kind 867 00:40:37,716 --> 00:40:40,156 Speaker 1: of paying attention and you can kind of get the 868 00:40:40,436 --> 00:40:42,956 Speaker 1: emotional rewards that come from the good stuff in your 869 00:40:42,956 --> 00:40:44,956 Speaker 1: life that you otherwise would have just taken for granted. 870 00:40:45,156 --> 00:40:48,916 Speaker 2: So do you think our brain is conditioned to look 871 00:40:48,956 --> 00:40:52,276 Speaker 2: at the negative only, or at least for the most part, 872 00:40:52,396 --> 00:40:56,356 Speaker 2: so we are almost fighting against it to achieve happiness. 873 00:40:56,876 --> 00:40:58,716 Speaker 1: Definitely. I mean, I think there's lots of evidence for 874 00:40:58,756 --> 00:41:01,556 Speaker 1: a negativity bias. There's even evidence that like three month 875 00:41:01,596 --> 00:41:03,836 Speaker 1: old and five month old babies are more likely to 876 00:41:03,876 --> 00:41:06,276 Speaker 1: pay attention if you show them a scene of something negative. 877 00:41:06,276 --> 00:41:08,556 Speaker 1: They kind of lock onto the negative stuff. So it 878 00:41:08,556 --> 00:41:10,516 Speaker 1: seems like we have this bias, and it seems like 879 00:41:10,556 --> 00:41:13,236 Speaker 1: it emerges really early. The good news is that you 880 00:41:13,276 --> 00:41:15,596 Speaker 1: can train your brain away from that. Right, This is 881 00:41:15,636 --> 00:41:17,876 Speaker 1: what I think think is what the gratitude practice that 882 00:41:17,916 --> 00:41:20,036 Speaker 1: your mother was talking about can be so powerful. Right, 883 00:41:20,236 --> 00:41:22,356 Speaker 1: you just force yourself to notice the good stuff, so 884 00:41:22,356 --> 00:41:24,996 Speaker 1: you kind of push against this natural tendency, and I 885 00:41:24,996 --> 00:41:27,636 Speaker 1: think that's the case in so many aspects of our lives. 886 00:41:27,716 --> 00:41:30,036 Speaker 1: You know, I think we use the fitness analogy before, 887 00:41:30,076 --> 00:41:31,836 Speaker 1: but I think it's similar, right, Like, I don't know 888 00:41:31,876 --> 00:41:33,756 Speaker 1: about your general take, but my general take would be 889 00:41:33,756 --> 00:41:35,836 Speaker 1: to like eat unhealthy stuff. I'm not like a kind 890 00:41:35,876 --> 00:41:38,316 Speaker 1: of physically minded person. My instinct would be to stay 891 00:41:38,356 --> 00:41:40,716 Speaker 1: on the couch and not push myself. Right, those are 892 00:41:40,756 --> 00:41:43,316 Speaker 1: our natural instincts. But of course we can push past 893 00:41:43,316 --> 00:41:45,396 Speaker 1: those natural instincts, and we need to if we want 894 00:41:45,436 --> 00:41:47,556 Speaker 1: to be a little healthier. And I think the same 895 00:41:47,636 --> 00:41:50,676 Speaker 1: is true for our happiness. We have this natural negativity 896 00:41:50,676 --> 00:41:53,636 Speaker 1: bias that might even be innate, but with a little practice, 897 00:41:53,676 --> 00:41:54,676 Speaker 1: we can move past it. 898 00:41:58,676 --> 00:42:01,396 Speaker 2: In the end, Laurie, if you were to describe the 899 00:42:01,516 --> 00:42:06,716 Speaker 2: United States of America in the context of happiness, how 900 00:42:06,756 --> 00:42:07,436 Speaker 2: would you do that? 901 00:42:07,756 --> 00:42:10,636 Speaker 1: I think I would describe it Unfortunately, is going down 902 00:42:10,716 --> 00:42:13,356 Speaker 1: right now. And that's really what these recent data from 903 00:42:13,356 --> 00:42:16,516 Speaker 1: the World Happiness Report show is that overall the happiness 904 00:42:16,556 --> 00:42:18,796 Speaker 1: in the United States has been going down. We've dropped 905 00:42:18,796 --> 00:42:21,636 Speaker 1: out of the top twenty in the world for the 906 00:42:21,636 --> 00:42:24,756 Speaker 1: first time ever since the World Happiness Report has started, 907 00:42:24,996 --> 00:42:28,076 Speaker 1: and sadly a lot of that increased unhappiness is because 908 00:42:28,116 --> 00:42:30,996 Speaker 1: of young people, is because young people are feeling so 909 00:42:31,076 --> 00:42:33,996 Speaker 1: depressed and so anxious, and so I think the way 910 00:42:34,036 --> 00:42:36,236 Speaker 1: I would describe it is the United States isn't doing 911 00:42:36,356 --> 00:42:39,516 Speaker 1: very well. But in that challenge, we really have an opportunity. 912 00:42:39,676 --> 00:42:41,996 Speaker 1: This is a real opportunity. We have to kind of 913 00:42:42,036 --> 00:42:44,196 Speaker 1: follow what the science show is and our behaviors in 914 00:42:44,196 --> 00:42:45,796 Speaker 1: our mindsets to feel happier. 915 00:42:46,116 --> 00:42:48,756 Speaker 2: Lottie, thank you so much for coming on immigrantly. As 916 00:42:48,796 --> 00:42:52,196 Speaker 2: I said, you are a superstar. A lot of people 917 00:42:52,276 --> 00:42:55,396 Speaker 2: love you, and I am so glad that you're doing 918 00:42:55,436 --> 00:42:59,036 Speaker 2: what you're doing because we all need the Happiness Lab 919 00:42:59,156 --> 00:43:02,756 Speaker 2: podcast in our lives to feel happier. But thank you 920 00:43:02,836 --> 00:43:04,796 Speaker 2: so much. This was wonderful, such. 921 00:43:04,636 --> 00:43:06,076 Speaker 1: A great time. Thanks so much for having me on 922 00:43:06,156 --> 00:43:06,476 Speaker 1: the show. 923 00:43:14,916 --> 00:43:17,436 Speaker 2: I'm so glad I got to talk to Laurie. I've 924 00:43:17,436 --> 00:43:20,116 Speaker 2: been listening to the Happiness Lab for I don't know 925 00:43:20,156 --> 00:43:24,756 Speaker 2: how long. This was such an important, fun, introspective conversation. 926 00:43:25,196 --> 00:43:27,356 Speaker 2: And here's what I want all of you to do. 927 00:43:27,716 --> 00:43:31,796 Speaker 2: On a scale of zero to ten ate your happiness. 928 00:43:31,996 --> 00:43:35,556 Speaker 2: How happy are you in life and what makes you happy. 929 00:43:35,916 --> 00:43:41,076 Speaker 2: I really think doing these exercises, being intentional about how 930 00:43:41,156 --> 00:43:45,636 Speaker 2: happy we are, how grateful we are, probably makes us happier, 931 00:43:45,876 --> 00:43:48,996 Speaker 2: and if not, it at least gives us a pathway 932 00:43:49,236 --> 00:43:53,876 Speaker 2: to work towards happiness. This podcast was produced by Me 933 00:43:54,236 --> 00:43:59,556 Speaker 2: Sally Ahhn, written by Ramier Harris and Me. The editorial 934 00:43:59,596 --> 00:44:03,316 Speaker 2: review is done by Shay yu Are, sound designer and 935 00:44:03,556 --> 00:44:07,636 Speaker 2: editor is Haik and Mudfarid. The music for Immigrantly is 936 00:44:07,716 --> 00:44:11,596 Speaker 2: done by Simon Hutchinson. Come back next week when I 937 00:44:11,636 --> 00:44:17,276 Speaker 2: have another incredible guest, and try to be happy