WEBVTT - Danny Goldberg 0:00:04.120 --> 0:00:07.600 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome to the Bob Left Sets podcast. My 0:00:07.720 --> 0:00:11.039 guest this week is Danny Goldberg, who's had a career 0:00:11.080 --> 0:00:14.640 as a record executive, as a manager, as a writer, 0:00:14.840 --> 0:00:17.600 as a producer. Good to have you here, Danny, So 0:00:17.720 --> 0:00:21.240 nice to be here, Bob. Okay, you were the billboard 0:00:21.280 --> 0:00:27.840 correspondent for Woodstock. How did that come together? I got 0:00:27.920 --> 0:00:31.760 my first job after dropping out of college. Uh, with 0:00:31.880 --> 0:00:34.920 Billboard because okay, well let's go that that triggers. Okay, 0:00:34.920 --> 0:00:37.920 so you grow up where? Grew up in Hastings on Hudson, 0:00:38.000 --> 0:00:40.680 which is Westchester County, right, and I went to a 0:00:40.760 --> 0:00:43.199 high school called Fieldston, which is actually in the Riverdale 0:00:43.240 --> 0:00:46.640 section of the Bronx Private School. Yeah, and your father 0:00:46.720 --> 0:00:49.320 is doing what for a living? Here? Was a textile 0:00:49.360 --> 0:00:55.040 executive and my mother was a housewife. She didn't make money, 0:00:55.080 --> 0:00:57.400 but she was a brilliant you know, she's a poet. 0:00:57.440 --> 0:00:59.920 She published a book of poetry and we always looked 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:04.240 her is the smartest one. But but my dad was 0:01:04.560 --> 0:01:06.440 took the train to the city every day and came 0:01:06.440 --> 0:01:08.720 back and as did you. If you're going to Fieldston, 0:01:09.840 --> 0:01:13.040 well to Fieldston from Hastings there was a math teacher, 0:01:13.480 --> 0:01:16.440 Mr Jason, who would drive me there and then it 0:01:16.520 --> 0:01:18.280 was a bus back. There was there was not really 0:01:18.319 --> 0:01:21.680 a train. How long was the bus ride that? Forty minutes? Right? 0:01:21.800 --> 0:01:25.240 Relatively long for school? Yeah? And you have any siblings. 0:01:25.480 --> 0:01:27.520 I have a younger brother and a younger sister. Yeah, 0:01:27.560 --> 0:01:29.640 so you're the oldest. All the hopes and dreams are 0:01:29.640 --> 0:01:32.000 in you, correct. And so what are your brother and 0:01:32.040 --> 0:01:35.920 sister up to today? My brother works for a company 0:01:35.959 --> 0:01:40.160 that sells computer systems to companies. I don't know exactly 0:01:40.200 --> 0:01:42.479 what he does, but it's in that ballpark. And he's 0:01:42.520 --> 0:01:46.760 got a son named Ben and and two grand daughters. Uh. 0:01:46.800 --> 0:01:50.760 And my sister is an academic. She is a professor 0:01:50.840 --> 0:01:55.120 at the Paul University in Indiana of conflict resolution. And 0:01:55.200 --> 0:01:57.400 she's a PhD. So we do have a doctor in 0:01:57.440 --> 0:02:02.440 the family. Okay. And are your parents political, because I 0:02:02.480 --> 0:02:05.080 know you're very political. My parents were political. I got 0:02:05.080 --> 0:02:07.840 my politics from my parents. They were there. They they're 0:02:07.840 --> 0:02:10.079 in heaven now, but they're not, you know, I don't 0:02:10.080 --> 0:02:11.800 get to talk to them in the flesh anymore. But 0:02:11.880 --> 0:02:15.000 there they were, you know, for the civil rights movement. 0:02:15.040 --> 0:02:19.119 They had worked together before I was born. On the 0:02:19.120 --> 0:02:20.760 thing was before they were married, but when they were 0:02:20.840 --> 0:02:25.239 gonna get married. On the Henry Wallace campaign in so 0:02:25.240 --> 0:02:28.360 so he was he for those who don't know he was, 0:02:28.520 --> 0:02:31.720 he had been Roosevelt's Vice president and Secretary of Agriculture, 0:02:31.760 --> 0:02:34.920 and he was kind of against the Cold War and 0:02:35.040 --> 0:02:38.080 was to the left of Harry Truman and and ultimately 0:02:38.160 --> 0:02:41.320 ran on an extremely unsuccessful third party ticket in forty 0:02:41.320 --> 0:02:43.480 eight because he felt Truman had kind of sold out 0:02:43.520 --> 0:02:46.560 some of the New deals. So that's what I grew 0:02:46.639 --> 0:02:49.399 up with was they weren't communists, but they they they 0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:54.560 were They hated John McCarthy, and they were they were lefties, liberals, liberals. 0:02:54.639 --> 0:02:56.560 Let's jump all the way to the future as we 0:02:56.639 --> 0:02:59.800 sit here right now with what happened in the Bronx 0:03:00.240 --> 0:03:04.120 with Crowley being uh beaten in the primary by a 0:03:04.160 --> 0:03:07.959 twenty eight year old woman. Do you believe the Democrats 0:03:08.480 --> 0:03:13.200 should run to the center, run to the left. Well, 0:03:13.320 --> 0:03:17.160 I think that the short answer, the one word answer, 0:03:17.200 --> 0:03:19.079 would be to the left. But I do think these 0:03:19.120 --> 0:03:23.919 words left and center are kind of um used differently 0:03:23.960 --> 0:03:27.600 by different people. But to me, the key to the 0:03:27.639 --> 0:03:31.040 Democrats is to turn out the vote and to get 0:03:31.080 --> 0:03:34.680 everybody who voted for the third party candidates uh to 0:03:34.800 --> 0:03:37.160 vote for Democrats this time. To get the people who 0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:40.040 didn't vote to vote for Democrats this time, I think 0:03:40.040 --> 0:03:42.600 that's the low hanging fruit. I think changing the mind 0:03:42.680 --> 0:03:45.720 of a Trump voter is really really hard. And I 0:03:45.760 --> 0:03:48.720 think getting somebody who voted for the Libertarian or Jill 0:03:48.760 --> 0:03:50.800 Steiner who didn't think there was any difference, or those 0:03:50.920 --> 0:03:53.840 ridiculous arguments, I think getting those people to show up 0:03:53.840 --> 0:03:56.760 and vote for the Democrats is is an easier lift 0:03:57.120 --> 0:03:59.920 of the two. Well, that's what Frank Rich says. Frank 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:03.440 Rich said, you know, although it's interesting to study why 0:04:03.480 --> 0:04:06.040 these people voted for Trump, that you're not going to 0:04:06.120 --> 0:04:08.880 convince him. It's about getting out the vote. Yeah, I 0:04:09.040 --> 0:04:12.600 think that's true. I think historically, when there's a high turnout, 0:04:12.640 --> 0:04:14.800 Democrats win, and when there's a low turnout, they lose. 0:04:15.160 --> 0:04:17.560 And I think clearly we know the math. I mean, 0:04:17.600 --> 0:04:20.520 there's not a majority support for Trump, but but if 0:04:20.560 --> 0:04:22.520 if a majority the people who show up to vote 0:04:22.560 --> 0:04:26.240 support him, then he controls everything. Do you have any 0:04:26.279 --> 0:04:29.240 fear that we could have candidates that are too far 0:04:29.320 --> 0:04:32.640 to the left and we lose the so called center. 0:04:33.600 --> 0:04:38.080 I'm much more scared of people who demoralize women, young 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:41.440 people in racial minorities, because that's what happened last time, 0:04:42.080 --> 0:04:45.400 and that's what's happened frequently with the Democrats. I haven't 0:04:46.040 --> 0:04:48.479 I guess, if you wanted to say McGovern was too 0:04:48.480 --> 0:04:50.400 far to the left, that was so long ago, and 0:04:50.400 --> 0:04:53.400 it was such a unique set of circumstances, you know, 0:04:53.600 --> 0:04:57.440 and you know, almost forty more than forty more than 0:04:57.480 --> 0:05:00.560 forty years ago. But certainly in terms of in the 0:05:00.640 --> 0:05:04.360 last several decades, there's no examples of Democrats who are 0:05:04.440 --> 0:05:05.960 too far to the left. There's a lot of examples 0:05:06.000 --> 0:05:09.279 of Democrats who didn't get the turnout, who didn't motivate 0:05:09.320 --> 0:05:11.479 young people. These kids who showed up on the Gun March, 0:05:11.560 --> 0:05:14.120 the women who showed up on the William Million Women March, 0:05:14.720 --> 0:05:17.800 the the African Americans who showed up for Barack Obama, 0:05:18.400 --> 0:05:21.680 the Latinos who need to know that there's a compelling 0:05:21.720 --> 0:05:25.240 difference between Democrats and Republicans. Getting them to show up 0:05:25.800 --> 0:05:28.080 is to me the big task. I haven't seen examples 0:05:28.120 --> 0:05:30.039 of Democrats who lost because they were too far to 0:05:30.040 --> 0:05:32.080 the left. We have a lot of examples of Democrats 0:05:32.120 --> 0:05:34.479 who couldn't get turned out. Well, it's interesting in the 0:05:34.520 --> 0:05:37.280 last few days, uh, people are accusing of The New 0:05:37.360 --> 0:05:40.560 York Times of trying to bring people to the center, 0:05:40.920 --> 0:05:42.680 and then there are people to the left like Matt 0:05:42.680 --> 0:05:45.479 Taiebi say no, we really have to run on the issues. 0:05:45.880 --> 0:05:48.400 You know, a lot of them publicized by Bernie Sanders, 0:05:48.640 --> 0:05:53.039 having to do with school debt and healthcare and other opportunities. 0:05:53.600 --> 0:05:56.640 And as I say, this is how we lost, if 0:05:56.680 --> 0:05:58.320 I want to say I am a Democrat, that is 0:05:58.360 --> 0:06:01.080 how we lost the last time around. Um, I guess 0:06:01.080 --> 0:06:03.960 when Hillary Clinton said her favorite book was the Bible, 0:06:04.400 --> 0:06:07.120 I said, it just blew all credibility. Well, I think 0:06:07.160 --> 0:06:10.080 when she said I'm going to ask Henry Kissingerer for advice, 0:06:11.040 --> 0:06:13.320 and when she said no, I won't tell you what 0:06:13.360 --> 0:06:17.479 I said to Goldman Sachs that it was it was 0:06:17.600 --> 0:06:19.919 not exciting. You know, Look, I voted for Hillary Clinton. 0:06:19.920 --> 0:06:21.760 I contributed money to Hillary Clinton, and I think she 0:06:21.760 --> 0:06:24.159 would have been a terrific president. I was for burning 0:06:24.160 --> 0:06:26.560 in the primaries because I agreed with him on the issues. 0:06:27.160 --> 0:06:29.480 But I think the reality is that there's been too 0:06:29.520 --> 0:06:33.440 many Democratic leaders that haven't delivered for a lot of people, 0:06:33.520 --> 0:06:39.600 and and some of those people, uh didn't vote last time, 0:06:39.640 --> 0:06:41.480 and some of them voted for third parties. I think 0:06:41.520 --> 0:06:43.880 five percent of the vote went to the libertarian or 0:06:43.880 --> 0:06:47.000 to Jill Stein. I think all those people, I don't 0:06:47.000 --> 0:06:48.880 think any of those people would have voted for Trump. 0:06:49.880 --> 0:06:52.200 Some of them would have voted for for Hillary. Maybe 0:06:52.200 --> 0:06:53.919 some of them you just could never get. There's a 0:06:53.920 --> 0:06:57.680 certain core of nihilist lefties that will never vote for 0:06:57.720 --> 0:07:00.479 a Democrat. But it's not five percent, that's for sure, 0:07:00.600 --> 0:07:03.160 And uh, you know that was you know, and then 0:07:03.200 --> 0:07:07.080 you look at the young people. The percentage of progressive 0:07:07.160 --> 0:07:10.080 views of people under thirty or fifteen twenty points higher 0:07:10.080 --> 0:07:14.239 than the rest of theation. And uh, every every election 0:07:14.440 --> 0:07:17.720 is more of those people. And you've got to motivate 0:07:17.800 --> 0:07:19.640 them and show them there's a real difference and that 0:07:19.720 --> 0:07:23.120 it's worth it and taking it for granted because you 0:07:23.280 --> 0:07:26.160 just kind of quote something that you know lb J 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:28.720 did fifty years ago is not going to do it. 0:07:28.760 --> 0:07:32.240 You've got to. So I on that particular argument, I'm 0:07:32.320 --> 0:07:34.760 I'm more on the mat Ti e. B side, not 0:07:34.800 --> 0:07:36.760 only because I happen to believe in those issues, because 0:07:36.760 --> 0:07:39.240 I don't believe the other thing works. That what the 0:07:39.320 --> 0:07:41.840 what you're describing the not let's not go too far 0:07:41.880 --> 0:07:45.160 to the left platform is what lost for the Democrats, 0:07:45.160 --> 0:07:50.240 not only Hillary Clinton, but but successive mid terms and governorships. 0:07:50.280 --> 0:07:52.320 And you know, the Democratic Party is the weakest in 0:07:52.400 --> 0:07:54.880 terms of elective office that it's been in my lifetime 0:07:55.240 --> 0:07:57.679 because they keep taking the advice of these so called 0:07:57.760 --> 0:08:00.880 experts who claim to know what the center thinks, except 0:08:00.920 --> 0:08:04.040 they keep losing. If they would win, I would salute, 0:08:04.560 --> 0:08:07.960 you know, but they lost, so obviously their expertise is 0:08:08.000 --> 0:08:10.400 not what they claim it was. Okay, you're speaking my 0:08:10.480 --> 0:08:13.600 language before we go back to the beginning here, is 0:08:13.640 --> 0:08:17.600 there a place for music in this political sphere? And 0:08:17.640 --> 0:08:23.920 can music move the needle um? You know, it's so 0:08:24.080 --> 0:08:31.320 hard to know how music affects people relative to to politics. 0:08:31.360 --> 0:08:35.280 The historical role of music has mostly been as a 0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:39.960 source of encouragement for people. When when you know, John 0:08:40.040 --> 0:08:41.960 by Ezra Pete Seeger would go and sing for the 0:08:42.000 --> 0:08:44.880 civil rights workers, or phil Oaks would sing at peace rallies, 0:08:45.040 --> 0:08:48.600 or Jackson Brown and Bonnie Rate would would sing, you know, 0:08:48.840 --> 0:08:51.280 for anti nuclear rallies and things like that. It's not 0:08:51.360 --> 0:08:53.840 been to convert people. It's mostly been to kind of 0:08:53.840 --> 0:08:57.760 inspire and motivate the troops and to raise money. Um, 0:08:57.840 --> 0:09:00.240 you never know what art can do. You know, I 0:09:00.240 --> 0:09:02.480 wouldn't look at music as a separate category. I would 0:09:02.520 --> 0:09:06.760 just think creativity in general. I mean, certainly, Uncle Tom's 0:09:06.840 --> 0:09:10.240 Cabin is believed to have been a big catalyst in 0:09:10.320 --> 0:09:14.080 getting white people who had political power to finally be 0:09:14.120 --> 0:09:16.760 against slavery. So that's the famous example of a work 0:09:16.800 --> 0:09:20.120 of art actually moving the needle. But I think in 0:09:20.240 --> 0:09:22.800 terms of the general atmosphere of the culture, to the 0:09:22.840 --> 0:09:27.560 extent that art is makes certain things cool. Uh, you 0:09:27.600 --> 0:09:30.400 know it helps. I don't think it's it's it's it's 0:09:30.440 --> 0:09:33.319 that big deal. I think the underlying issues matter more 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:37.760 and and the Again, the main role of artist is 0:09:37.800 --> 0:09:41.640 to support politicians. As much as I love Harry Bellafante, 0:09:41.960 --> 0:09:45.360 he supported Martin Luther King, he wasn't Martin Luther King, 0:09:45.360 --> 0:09:48.120 and he would be the first to say that. Okay, 0:09:48.160 --> 0:09:50.840 So going back to Fieldstom, you were in high school 0:09:51.080 --> 0:09:55.280 in a very tumultuous era. Were you involved in politics them? 0:09:56.160 --> 0:09:59.720 I was, to the extent I could be. Um, you know, 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:03.360 bunch of us in in um in seventh grade. One 0:10:03.360 --> 0:10:06.280 of my my best friend in high school was somebody 0:10:06.360 --> 0:10:08.320 named Joel Goodman, who was still a friend of mine. 0:10:08.360 --> 0:10:10.240 He lives in Santa Monica, not far from where we 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:14.080 were doing this podcast, and he um. His uncle was 0:10:14.120 --> 0:10:18.319 Paul Goodman, who's a famous radical writer of the fifties, 0:10:18.360 --> 0:10:22.720 great hero of both the gay rights movement and a 0:10:22.720 --> 0:10:25.680 lot of left wing movements. So he was way more 0:10:25.800 --> 0:10:27.960 tuned in to sort of left the ideas than I was. 0:10:28.000 --> 0:10:31.000 But my parents, like I was telling you earlier, supported 0:10:31.000 --> 0:10:32.839 these things. And he had the idea that we should 0:10:32.840 --> 0:10:37.959 protest air A drills because they represented preparation for war 0:10:38.480 --> 0:10:42.640 and kind of enabling a war psychology. And so in 0:10:42.760 --> 0:10:46.280 seventh grade, six of us held signs up mindset, don't 0:10:46.320 --> 0:10:49.760 prepare for war prevented and refused to participate in an 0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:53.880 air A drill and we got suspended for a day. 0:10:53.920 --> 0:10:56.079 But then the next year they stopped having air A drills. 0:10:57.080 --> 0:10:59.960 So now this was a private school, but it gave 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:03.040 me an unrealistic sense of what protests could do, which 0:11:03.080 --> 0:11:05.840 I've never completely lost. Okay, so you get kicked out 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:08.760 of school for a day for yours. Oh, they were 0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:10.800 all for it now my parents supported that. My parents 0:11:10.840 --> 0:11:12.800 didn't like it when I started smoking dope and taking 0:11:12.840 --> 0:11:15.640 acid that and and dropped out of college. That freaked 0:11:15.640 --> 0:11:18.480 them out. But the political activity they were completely supportive of. 0:11:18.800 --> 0:11:20.960 And a bunch of us got a bus in sixty 0:11:20.960 --> 0:11:23.800 five to go to a march on Washington against the 0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:27.000 war fields and bus and uh. And one of my 0:11:27.080 --> 0:11:29.920 classmates in in in Um the last three years of 0:11:29.960 --> 0:11:33.360 high school was gil Scott heron Um. You know, he 0:11:33.360 --> 0:11:36.560 he got a scholarship there. He had his family had 0:11:36.559 --> 0:11:39.240 moved up from somewhere in the South. I think it's Virginia, 0:11:39.320 --> 0:11:43.040 but it might be Tennessee. I it's But he was 0:11:43.360 --> 0:11:47.160 immediately the most popular kid in school because he was 0:11:47.200 --> 0:11:49.400 that cool. He was the lone African American. There were 0:11:49.440 --> 0:11:52.160 a few other African Americans, not a lot, but I 0:11:52.200 --> 0:11:54.000 think we had out of a class of a hundred, 0:11:54.080 --> 0:11:56.600 I think there were seven or eight. But he was 0:11:56.720 --> 0:12:00.280 just so charismatic. He was the center of the basketball team. 0:12:00.320 --> 0:12:02.440 He was the biggest, he was the main he was 0:12:02.520 --> 0:12:05.360 the wide end on the football team. He was the 0:12:05.400 --> 0:12:08.440 most talented musically. He had the best sense of humor, 0:12:08.800 --> 0:12:11.920 and he was an incredible writer. The first day in 0:12:11.960 --> 0:12:15.080 English class, we've been given this assignment about what did 0:12:15.120 --> 0:12:17.480 you do over the summer? And mine was the I 0:12:17.559 --> 0:12:19.640 went to the beach. I rode my bike and brought 0:12:19.640 --> 0:12:21.920 a copy of Mad magazine, and I had a ice 0:12:21.920 --> 0:12:24.439 cream Sunday and I rode back. And we're all having 0:12:24.440 --> 0:12:27.760 these like a sort of four line see Dick run 0:12:27.800 --> 0:12:30.440 type descriptions, and the okay, Gil yours and he starts 0:12:30.480 --> 0:12:35.120 reading the wind Blew through marriage Hair. She hadn't slept 0:12:35.200 --> 0:12:38.440 all night, but she'd had enough coffee that she was, 0:12:39.080 --> 0:12:41.440 you know, it was literature. And we all looked around, like, 0:12:41.440 --> 0:12:45.240 who is this guy? You know? And um, so he 0:12:45.320 --> 0:12:49.760 was you know, he wasn't um. He didn't come with 0:12:49.840 --> 0:12:52.400 us to the to the march. His mother was pretty 0:12:52.440 --> 0:12:57.720 strict and but but but he he was. He was 0:12:57.760 --> 0:13:00.640 a lefty. He was he was a deaf and it lefty. 0:13:00.760 --> 0:13:03.040 How was he your friend in school? He was my friend. 0:13:03.080 --> 0:13:06.280 He mostly hung out with the jocks, but he liked me. 0:13:08.520 --> 0:13:11.400 It's it's counterintuitor, isn't it. But but these were fields 0:13:11.480 --> 0:13:14.840 in shocks. This is a mostly Jewish private school. This 0:13:14.840 --> 0:13:17.960 this was not providing players for the NFL or NBA. 0:13:18.080 --> 0:13:21.680 You know, Um, but he uh, he was. He was 0:13:21.720 --> 0:13:24.160 a good guy, and he was he was. Everybody loved Gil. 0:13:24.200 --> 0:13:25.920 He got along with kind of all the different cliques 0:13:26.400 --> 0:13:28.280 and and and I considered him a friend and he 0:13:28.440 --> 0:13:31.240 and I saw him in subsequent years at different times 0:13:31.240 --> 0:13:33.240 in both of our lives. You know, now, any of 0:13:33.240 --> 0:13:38.360 your contemporaries from Fieldston become notable on the scene. Oh, 0:13:39.240 --> 0:13:42.240 I don't know. I would say he was by far 0:13:42.600 --> 0:13:49.160 the most spectacular public figure from our particular class. Okay, 0:13:49.200 --> 0:13:51.200 So you graduate from Fieldston and you go to college 0:13:51.240 --> 0:13:55.000 where I got into the University of California at Berkeley 0:13:55.679 --> 0:13:58.560 because I was an underachiever, as they used to call us, 0:13:58.600 --> 0:14:00.720 a d D people in those days, do you consider 0:14:00.720 --> 0:14:03.880 yourself to have a d D? In retrospect? I know 0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:06.320 what it was about the story. That's the story I 0:14:06.360 --> 0:14:10.120 tell myself now for being such a mediocre student. Who knows, 0:14:10.640 --> 0:14:14.000 but I um, but but but I was a good 0:14:14.000 --> 0:14:16.760 test taker. And Berkeley was one of the schools that 0:14:16.840 --> 0:14:18.680 only looked at the S A T. S. So the 0:14:18.840 --> 0:14:21.880 guidance people said, don't even those are the only colleges 0:14:21.920 --> 0:14:23.880 you should apply to, because if they look at your grades, 0:14:24.080 --> 0:14:26.840 they're not gonna want you, you know. And I spent 0:14:26.920 --> 0:14:30.040 an entire week going to classes and that was it. 0:14:30.200 --> 0:14:32.640 I just was only into drugs at that time, and 0:14:33.120 --> 0:14:35.840 so I dropped out literally after one week. This is 0:14:35.880 --> 0:14:39.880 the fall of no. No, this is this is the 0:14:40.040 --> 0:14:43.160 fall of sixties seven. I graduated from high school in 0:14:43.200 --> 0:14:46.520 June sixty seven and go I wind up in Berkeley, 0:14:46.560 --> 0:14:50.160 and okay, sixty seven, Okay, so that is literally just 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:52.280 at the end of the summer of law. Just missed 0:14:52.280 --> 0:14:53.880 the summer of love. Yeah, so by the time I 0:14:54.040 --> 0:14:58.080 visited Hay to Ashbury, it was it was already kind 0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:02.040 of ruined by the inflo of junkies and predators. And 0:15:02.840 --> 0:15:05.800 I mostly stayed in Berkeley, but I did. But I 0:15:05.840 --> 0:15:07.760 saw it right after the Summer of love. The real 0:15:07.840 --> 0:15:11.000 summer of love, I think, having just written a book 0:15:11.000 --> 0:15:13.360 about this, was really sixty six. That was the real 0:15:13.400 --> 0:15:16.960 idealistic period. Sixty seven was the media summer of love. 0:15:17.600 --> 0:15:20.640 Although many people think sixty eight was the summer of love. 0:15:20.840 --> 0:15:24.120 Who weren't around that today was the summer of assassination. 0:15:24.360 --> 0:15:26.600 Sixty eight was certainly that was when the mains just 0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:29.000 started to get clued in. But you're in Berkeley, which 0:15:29.000 --> 0:15:32.240 is a hot bit of radicalization, and could you still 0:15:32.280 --> 0:15:35.640 feel that even though Mario Savio was before that, etcetera. Well, 0:15:35.640 --> 0:15:38.640 there was a schism. It wasn't an official schism, but 0:15:38.680 --> 0:15:41.200 there was the fact of schism among people that were 0:15:41.280 --> 0:15:45.240 kind of long haired, people that were generally rebellious baby 0:15:45.240 --> 0:15:49.280 boomer anti war types, between people that were sort of 0:15:49.320 --> 0:15:52.920 into the seeing political radicalism in the anti war movement 0:15:52.920 --> 0:15:55.880 as their number one priority, and people who saw getting 0:15:55.960 --> 0:15:58.360 high as their number one priority. And I was in 0:15:58.400 --> 0:16:01.240 the latter group. I was in said head who was 0:16:01.280 --> 0:16:03.680 against the war and proudly against it. I had no 0:16:03.760 --> 0:16:06.240 ambiguity about it. But I didn't want to sit in meetings. 0:16:06.280 --> 0:16:08.480 I was never part of STS. I was really mainly 0:16:08.480 --> 0:16:11.320 into getting high. Okay, So were you into getting high 0:16:11.320 --> 0:16:14.760 in high school? I was, okay? So why do you 0:16:14.760 --> 0:16:16.920 you just doubled down when you get to Berkeley? Correct? 0:16:16.920 --> 0:16:19.880 Because I didn't have parents to come home to anymore. Okay? 0:16:19.880 --> 0:16:22.760 So you literally stopped going to classes after one week? Correct? 0:16:22.920 --> 0:16:25.520 And but you're living in the dorm. No, at Berkeley, 0:16:25.560 --> 0:16:27.800 you did not have to live in the dorm. So 0:16:27.920 --> 0:16:30.560 Joel Goodman, the Fellow I mentioned you before, also went 0:16:30.600 --> 0:16:33.680 to Berkeley and we shared an apartment. It was actually 0:16:33.680 --> 0:16:36.480 in a town called Albany, California, that's just past the 0:16:36.520 --> 0:16:39.840 border of just slightly north of of Berkeley. So we 0:16:39.840 --> 0:16:42.720 we had an apartment and we're not in a dorm. Well, 0:16:42.720 --> 0:16:44.920 so what? And he continue to go to school. He 0:16:45.040 --> 0:16:47.040 stayed in Berkeley for about another year, and then he 0:16:47.120 --> 0:16:49.200 later became a film editor. You'll see his name on 0:16:49.240 --> 0:16:52.400 the credits of many TV series and the movies and 0:16:52.440 --> 0:16:54.800 so on. He's okay, so you're there. You you stopped 0:16:54.800 --> 0:16:58.440 going to class for uh after week. You know, you 0:16:58.480 --> 0:17:01.120 know something is coming the bell that's gonna be wrong. 0:17:01.200 --> 0:17:03.680 Your parents are gonna freak out. So what's going through 0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:12.040 your head? You know? I this was not the time. Welcome, Welcome, 0:17:12.080 --> 0:17:15.320 Welcome to the Bob Left Sets podcast. My guest this 0:17:15.359 --> 0:17:18.399 week is Danny Goldberg, who's had a career as a 0:17:18.440 --> 0:17:22.800 record executive, as a manager, as a writer, as a producer. 0:17:23.040 --> 0:17:26.760 Good to have you here, Danny, So nice to be here, Bob. Okay, 0:17:27.080 --> 0:17:31.400 you were the billboard correspondent for Woodstock. How did that 0:17:31.440 --> 0:17:36.920 come together? I got my first job after dropping out 0:17:36.920 --> 0:17:40.960 of college, uh with Billboard because okay, well let's go 0:17:41.040 --> 0:17:43.480 that that triggers. Okay, So you grow up where? Grew 0:17:43.560 --> 0:17:46.760 up in Hastings on Hudson, which is Westchester County, right, 0:17:46.960 --> 0:17:49.280 And I went to a high school called Fieldston, which 0:17:49.280 --> 0:17:52.320 is actually in the Riverdale section of the Bronx Private School. Yeah, 0:17:52.800 --> 0:17:55.359 and your father is doing what for a living? Here 0:17:55.520 --> 0:18:00.840 was a textile executive and my mother as a housewife. 0:18:00.880 --> 0:18:03.800 She didn't make money, but she was a brilliant you know, 0:18:03.840 --> 0:18:06.040 she's a poet. She published a book of poetry and 0:18:06.359 --> 0:18:09.080 we always looked at her as the smartest one. Uh 0:18:09.359 --> 0:18:12.520 but but my dad was took the train to the 0:18:12.520 --> 0:18:14.679 city every day and came back, and as did you. 0:18:14.760 --> 0:18:19.000 If you're going to Fieldston, Well, to Fieldston from Hastings 0:18:19.040 --> 0:18:22.240 there was a math teacher, Mr Jason, who would drive 0:18:22.280 --> 0:18:24.560 me there and then it was a bus back there 0:18:24.600 --> 0:18:26.720 was there was not really a train. How long was 0:18:26.760 --> 0:18:31.119 the bus ride that? Forty minutes? Right, relatively long for school. Yeah. 0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:33.440 And you have any siblings. I have a younger brother 0:18:33.480 --> 0:18:35.800 and a younger sister. Yeah. So you're the oldest. All 0:18:35.800 --> 0:18:38.239 the hopes and dreams are in you, correct, And so 0:18:38.280 --> 0:18:40.960 what are your brother and sister up to today. My 0:18:41.040 --> 0:18:46.080 brother works for a company that sells computer systems to companies. 0:18:46.160 --> 0:18:48.000 I don't know exactly what he does, but it's in 0:18:48.000 --> 0:18:51.199 that ballpark. And he's got a son named Ben and 0:18:51.200 --> 0:18:56.160 and two grand daughters. Uh. And my sister is an academic. 0:18:56.320 --> 0:18:59.800 She is a professor at De Paul University in Indiana 0:19:00.320 --> 0:19:03.720 of conflict resolution and she's a PhD. So we do 0:19:03.840 --> 0:19:08.120 have a doctor in the family. Okay. And are your 0:19:08.200 --> 0:19:11.280 parents political, because I know you're very political. My parents 0:19:11.280 --> 0:19:13.640 were political. I got my politics from my parents. They 0:19:13.640 --> 0:19:16.239 were there. They they're in heaven now, but they're not 0:19:16.680 --> 0:19:18.000 you know, I don't get to talk to them in 0:19:18.040 --> 0:19:21.000 the flesh anymore. But there they were, you know, for 0:19:21.040 --> 0:19:24.399 the civil rights movement. They had worked together before I 0:19:24.480 --> 0:19:27.359 was born on the thing was before they were married, 0:19:27.400 --> 0:19:29.359 but when they were gonna get married. On the Henry 0:19:29.359 --> 0:19:34.520 Wallace campaign in so so he was he for those 0:19:34.560 --> 0:19:36.920 who don't know he was. He had been Roosevelt's vice 0:19:36.960 --> 0:19:39.560 president and Secretary of Agriculture, and he was kind of 0:19:39.560 --> 0:19:43.000 against the Cold War and was to the left of 0:19:43.000 --> 0:19:47.120 Harry Truman and and ultimately ran on an extremely unsuccessful 0:19:47.160 --> 0:19:49.639 third party ticket in forty eight because he felt Truman 0:19:49.680 --> 0:19:51.879 had kind of sold out some of the new deals. 0:19:51.880 --> 0:19:55.399 So that's what I grew up with was they weren't communists, 0:19:55.440 --> 0:19:58.639 but they they they were They hated John McCarthy, and 0:19:58.680 --> 0:20:02.480 they were they were lefties, liberals, liberals. Let's jump all 0:20:02.480 --> 0:20:04.520 the way to the future as we sit here right 0:20:04.560 --> 0:20:08.320 now with what happened in the Bronx with Crowley being 0:20:08.760 --> 0:20:11.879 UH beaten in the primary by a twenty eight year 0:20:11.920 --> 0:20:16.280 old woman, do you believe the Democrats should run to 0:20:16.320 --> 0:20:21.200 the center, run to the left. Well, I think that 0:20:22.560 --> 0:20:24.800 the short answer, the one word answer, would be to 0:20:24.880 --> 0:20:26.840 the left. But I do think these words left and 0:20:26.920 --> 0:20:32.159 center are kind of um used differently by different people. 0:20:32.280 --> 0:20:35.840 But to me, the key to the Democrats is to 0:20:36.000 --> 0:20:39.160 turn out the vote and to get everybody who voted 0:20:39.200 --> 0:20:42.879 for the third party candidates UH to vote for Democrats 0:20:42.960 --> 0:20:45.000 this time. To get the people who didn't vote to 0:20:45.119 --> 0:20:47.760 vote for Democrats this time. I think that's the low 0:20:47.840 --> 0:20:50.200 hanging fruit. I think changing the mind of a Trump 0:20:50.320 --> 0:20:53.680 voter is really really hard, and I think getting somebody 0:20:53.720 --> 0:20:56.680 who voted for the libertarian or Jill Steiner who didn't 0:20:56.680 --> 0:20:59.520 think there was any difference, or those ridiculous arguments. I 0:20:59.560 --> 0:21:01.320 think getting those people to show up and vote for 0:21:01.320 --> 0:21:05.160 the Democrats is is an easier lift of the two. Well, 0:21:05.200 --> 0:21:07.840 that's what Frank Rich says. Frank Rich said, you know, 0:21:08.520 --> 0:21:12.000 although it's interesting to study why these people voted for Trump, 0:21:12.440 --> 0:21:14.320 that you're not going to convince him it's about getting 0:21:14.320 --> 0:21:17.960 out the vote. Yeah, I think that's true. I think historically, 0:21:18.520 --> 0:21:20.800 when there's a high turnout, Democrats win, and when there's 0:21:20.800 --> 0:21:23.520 a low turnout, they lose. And I think clearly we 0:21:23.640 --> 0:21:26.320 know the math. I mean, there's not a majority support 0:21:26.400 --> 0:21:28.720 for Trump, but but if if a majority the people 0:21:28.720 --> 0:21:31.520 who show up to vote support him, then he controls everything. 0:21:32.680 --> 0:21:35.639 Do you have any fear that we could have candidates 0:21:35.640 --> 0:21:38.119 that are too far to the left and we lose 0:21:38.680 --> 0:21:42.439 the so called center. I'm much more scared of people 0:21:42.520 --> 0:21:47.200 who demoralize women, young people in racial minorities, because that's 0:21:47.240 --> 0:21:51.119 what happened last time, and that's what's happened frequently with 0:21:51.160 --> 0:21:54.359 the Democrats. I haven't I guess if you wanted to 0:21:54.400 --> 0:21:56.480 say McGovern was too far to the left, that was 0:21:56.560 --> 0:21:58.560 so long ago, and it was such a unique set 0:21:58.600 --> 0:22:02.200 of circumstances, you know, and uh, you know, almost forty 0:22:03.119 --> 0:22:06.520 more than forty more than forty years ago. But certainly 0:22:06.600 --> 0:22:09.840 in terms of in the last several decades, there's no 0:22:09.960 --> 0:22:12.200 examples of Democrats who were too far to the left. 0:22:12.200 --> 0:22:14.720 There's a lot of examples of Democrats who didn't get 0:22:14.720 --> 0:22:17.520 the turnout, who didn't motivate young people. These kids who 0:22:17.520 --> 0:22:19.400 showed up on the Gun March, the women who showed 0:22:19.480 --> 0:22:22.840 up on the William Million Women March, the the African 0:22:22.840 --> 0:22:26.760 Americans who showed up for Barack Obama, the Latinos who 0:22:26.800 --> 0:22:30.159 need to know that there's a compelling difference between Democrats 0:22:30.160 --> 0:22:33.119 and Republicans. Getting them to show up is to me 0:22:33.240 --> 0:22:36.040 the big task. I haven't seen examples of Democrats who 0:22:36.040 --> 0:22:37.560 lost because they were too far to the left. We 0:22:37.600 --> 0:22:39.840 have a lot of examples of Democrats who couldn't get 0:22:39.840 --> 0:22:42.359 turned out. Well. It's interesting in the last few days, 0:22:42.960 --> 0:22:45.840 UH people are accusing of the New York Times of 0:22:45.880 --> 0:22:48.399 trying to bring people to the center, and then there 0:22:48.400 --> 0:22:50.920 are people to the left like Matt Taiebi say no, 0:22:51.040 --> 0:22:53.159 we really have to run on the issues. You know, 0:22:53.240 --> 0:22:56.119 a lot of them publicized by Bernie Sanders, having to 0:22:56.160 --> 0:23:00.920 do with school debt and healthcare and other opportunity. And 0:23:01.320 --> 0:23:03.800 as I say, this is how we lost. If I 0:23:03.840 --> 0:23:05.560 want to say I am a Democrat, that is how 0:23:05.600 --> 0:23:08.840 we lost the last time around. I guess when Hillary 0:23:08.880 --> 0:23:11.880 Clinton said her favorite book was the Bible, I said, 0:23:12.240 --> 0:23:14.600 it just blew all credibility. Well, I think when she 0:23:14.760 --> 0:23:18.199 said I'm going to ask Henry Kissinger for advice, and 0:23:18.320 --> 0:23:20.520 when she said no, I won't tell you what I 0:23:20.560 --> 0:23:25.520 said to Goldman Sachs that it was it was not exciting. 0:23:25.560 --> 0:23:27.520 You know, look, I voted for Hillary Clinton. I contributed 0:23:27.520 --> 0:23:29.119 money to Hillary Clinton, and I think she would have 0:23:29.160 --> 0:23:31.399 been a terrific president. I was for Burning in the 0:23:31.440 --> 0:23:34.359 primaries because I agreed with him on the issues. But 0:23:34.440 --> 0:23:36.800 I think the reality is that there's been too many 0:23:36.880 --> 0:23:40.520 Democratic leaders that haven't delivered for a lot of people. 0:23:40.600 --> 0:23:46.680 And and some of those people, UH didn't vote last time, 0:23:46.720 --> 0:23:48.600 and some of them voted for third parties. I think 0:23:48.600 --> 0:23:50.960 five percent of the vote went to the libertarian or 0:23:50.960 --> 0:23:54.080 to Jill Stein. I think all those people, I don't 0:23:54.080 --> 0:23:55.960 think any of those people would have voted for Trump. 0:23:56.960 --> 0:23:59.280 Some of them would have voted for for Hillary. Maybe 0:23:59.280 --> 0:24:01.000 some of them you just could never get. There's a 0:24:01.000 --> 0:24:04.760 certain core of nihilist lefties that will never vote for 0:24:04.800 --> 0:24:08.439 a Democrat. But it's not five percent, and uh, you 0:24:08.440 --> 0:24:10.800 know that was you know, and then you look at 0:24:10.880 --> 0:24:14.880 the young people. The percentage of progressive views of people 0:24:14.960 --> 0:24:17.560 under thirty or fifteen twenty points higher than the rest 0:24:17.560 --> 0:24:21.800 of the polation, And uh, every every election is more 0:24:21.840 --> 0:24:25.119 of those people. And you've got to motivate them and 0:24:25.160 --> 0:24:27.320 show them there's a real difference and that it's worth 0:24:27.400 --> 0:24:30.720 it and taking it for granted because you just kind 0:24:30.720 --> 0:24:34.159 of quote something that you know lb J did fifty 0:24:34.240 --> 0:24:36.240 years ago is not going to do it. You've got 0:24:36.240 --> 0:24:39.760 to So I on that particular argument, I'm I'm more 0:24:39.800 --> 0:24:42.320 on the mat Ti e B side, not only because 0:24:42.359 --> 0:24:44.120 I happen to believe in those issues, because I don't 0:24:44.119 --> 0:24:46.800 believe the other thing works that what the what you're 0:24:46.800 --> 0:24:49.119 describing the not let's not go too far to the 0:24:49.200 --> 0:24:52.560 left platform is what lost for the Democrats, not only 0:24:52.640 --> 0:24:57.680 Hillary Clinton, but but successive midterms and governorships. And you know, 0:24:57.760 --> 0:25:00.040 the Democratic Party is the weakest in terms of a 0:25:00.160 --> 0:25:02.720 of office that it's been in my lifetime because they 0:25:02.840 --> 0:25:05.800 keep taking the advice of these so called experts who 0:25:05.840 --> 0:25:08.800 claim to know what the center thinks, except they keep losing. 0:25:09.359 --> 0:25:12.159 If they would win, I would salute, you know, but 0:25:12.280 --> 0:25:15.800 they lost, so obviously their expertise is not what they 0:25:15.840 --> 0:25:18.159 claim it was. Okay, you're speaking my language before we 0:25:18.200 --> 0:25:21.640 go back to the beginning here. Is there a place 0:25:21.720 --> 0:25:26.400 for music in this political sphere? And can music move 0:25:26.440 --> 0:25:33.520 the needle? Um? You know, it's so hard to know 0:25:33.720 --> 0:25:39.320 how music affects people relative to to politics. The historical 0:25:39.520 --> 0:25:42.840 role of music has mostly been as a source of 0:25:43.000 --> 0:25:47.560 encouragement for people. When when you know, John by Ezra 0:25:47.600 --> 0:25:50.160 Pete Seeger would go and sing for the civil rights workers, 0:25:50.240 --> 0:25:53.240 or phil Oaks would sing at peace rallies, or Jackson 0:25:53.240 --> 0:25:56.080 Brown and Bonnie Rate would would sing, you know, for 0:25:56.160 --> 0:25:58.600 anti nuclear rallies and things like that. It's not been 0:25:58.640 --> 0:26:01.520 to convert people. It's mostly been to kind of inspire 0:26:01.640 --> 0:26:05.000 and motivate the troops and to raise money. Um, you 0:26:05.119 --> 0:26:07.679 never know what art can do. You know, I wouldn't 0:26:07.680 --> 0:26:09.639 look at music as a separate category. I would just 0:26:09.680 --> 0:26:14.240 think creativity in general. I mean, certainly, Uncle Tom's cabin 0:26:15.240 --> 0:26:17.720 is believed to have been a big catalyst in getting 0:26:18.160 --> 0:26:21.960 white people who had political power to finally be against slavery. 0:26:22.040 --> 0:26:24.280 So that's the famous example of a work of art 0:26:24.800 --> 0:26:27.679 actually moving the needle. But I think in terms of 0:26:27.720 --> 0:26:30.399 the general atmosphere of the culture, to the extent that 0:26:30.640 --> 0:26:35.359 art is makes certain things cool. Uh, you know it helps. 0:26:35.800 --> 0:26:38.359 I don't think it's it's it's it's that big deal. 0:26:38.440 --> 0:26:43.560 I think the underlying issues matter more. And and there again, 0:26:43.560 --> 0:26:47.200 the main role of artist is to support politicians. As 0:26:47.240 --> 0:26:50.520 much as I love Harry Bellafante, he supported Martin Luther King, 0:26:50.560 --> 0:26:52.960 he wasn't Martin Luther King, and he would be the 0:26:52.960 --> 0:26:56.520 first to say that. Okay, So going back to Field Stem, 0:26:56.920 --> 0:27:00.480 you were in high school in a very tumultual was era. 0:27:00.760 --> 0:27:04.080 Were you involved in politics them? I was to the 0:27:04.119 --> 0:27:07.439 extent I could be. Um. You know, a bunch of 0:27:07.520 --> 0:27:11.160 us in in um in seventh grade. One of my 0:27:11.160 --> 0:27:14.240 my best friend in high school was somebody named Joel Goodman, 0:27:14.320 --> 0:27:15.840 who was still a friend of mine. He lives in 0:27:15.880 --> 0:27:18.359 Santa Monica, not far from where we're doing this podcast, 0:27:18.840 --> 0:27:22.199 and he um His uncle was Paul Goodman, who's a 0:27:22.240 --> 0:27:27.080 famous radical writer of the fifties, great hero of both 0:27:27.080 --> 0:27:31.080 the gay rights movement and a lot of left wing movements. 0:27:31.080 --> 0:27:33.919 So he was way more tuned in to sort of 0:27:34.000 --> 0:27:35.840 left the ideas than I was. But my parents, like 0:27:35.920 --> 0:27:38.919 I was telling you earlier, supported these things. And he 0:27:38.960 --> 0:27:41.199 had the idea that we should protest air A drills 0:27:41.720 --> 0:27:46.720 because they represented preparation for war and kind of enabling 0:27:46.840 --> 0:27:51.399 a war psychology. And so in seventh grade, six of 0:27:51.480 --> 0:27:54.760 us held signs up mindset, don't prepare for war, prevented 0:27:55.280 --> 0:27:58.600 and refused to participate in an air A drill, and 0:27:58.880 --> 0:28:01.600 we got suspended for a day. But then the next 0:28:01.680 --> 0:28:04.840 year they stopped having air aid drill. So now this 0:28:04.920 --> 0:28:08.040 was a private school, but it gave me an unrealistic 0:28:08.080 --> 0:28:12.119 sense of what protests could do, which I've never completely lost. Okay, 0:28:12.119 --> 0:28:15.320 so you get kicked out of school for a day 0:28:13.720 --> 0:28:16.520 for your say, Oh, they were all for it. Now, 0:28:16.520 --> 0:28:18.479 my parents supported that. My parents didn't like it when 0:28:18.520 --> 0:28:21.080 I started smoking dope and taking acid that and and 0:28:21.160 --> 0:28:23.480 dropped out of college. That freaked them out. But the 0:28:23.480 --> 0:28:26.359 political activity they were completely supportive of. And a bunch 0:28:26.400 --> 0:28:28.720 of us got a bus in sixty five to go 0:28:28.800 --> 0:28:31.960 to a march on Washington against the war fields and 0:28:32.040 --> 0:28:35.399 bus and uh and one of my classmates in in 0:28:35.400 --> 0:28:37.639 in Um. The last three years of High school was 0:28:37.680 --> 0:28:41.360 Gil Scott heron Um. You know, he he got a 0:28:41.400 --> 0:28:44.360 scholarship there. He had his family had moved up from 0:28:44.680 --> 0:28:46.640 somewhere in the South. I think it's Virginia, but it 0:28:46.720 --> 0:28:51.200 might be Tennessee. I it's but he was immediately the 0:28:51.200 --> 0:28:54.640 most popular kid in school because he was that cool. 0:28:54.720 --> 0:28:56.800 He was the lone African American. There were a few 0:28:56.800 --> 0:28:59.560 other African Americans, not a lot, but I think we 0:28:59.600 --> 0:29:01.520 had of a class of a hundred, I think there 0:29:01.560 --> 0:29:05.200 were seven or eight. But he was just so charismatic. 0:29:05.280 --> 0:29:07.680 He was the center of the basketball team. He was 0:29:07.720 --> 0:29:10.320 the biggest, he was the main he was the wide 0:29:10.400 --> 0:29:13.840 end on the football team. He was the most talented musically. 0:29:14.040 --> 0:29:16.320 He had the best sense of humor, and he was 0:29:16.360 --> 0:29:20.400 an incredible writer. The first day in English class, we've 0:29:20.440 --> 0:29:22.720 been given this assignment about what did you do over 0:29:22.760 --> 0:29:25.360 the summer? And mine was the I went to the beach. 0:29:25.440 --> 0:29:28.000 I rode my bike and brought a copy of Mad magazine, 0:29:28.000 --> 0:29:30.080 and I had a ice cream Sunday and I rode 0:29:30.120 --> 0:29:32.440 back and we're all having these like a sort of 0:29:32.480 --> 0:29:36.360 four line see Dick run type descriptions, and the okay, 0:29:36.360 --> 0:29:39.280 Gil yours and he starts reading the wind blew through 0:29:39.360 --> 0:29:44.400 Merrit's hair. She hadn't slept all night, but she'd had 0:29:44.520 --> 0:29:47.400 enough coffee that she was you know, it was literature. 0:29:47.440 --> 0:29:49.520 And we all looked around, like, who is this guy? 0:29:49.960 --> 0:29:55.959 You know? And um, so he was, you know, he wasn't. Um, 0:29:56.080 --> 0:29:58.160 he didn't come with us to the to the march. 0:29:58.280 --> 0:30:03.320 His mother was pretty strict and but but he was. 0:30:04.520 --> 0:30:07.680 He was a lefty, he was. He was a definite lefty. 0:30:07.800 --> 0:30:10.120 Now was he your friend in school? He was my friend. 0:30:10.160 --> 0:30:13.360 He mostly hung out with the jocks, but he liked me. 0:30:15.440 --> 0:30:18.120 So it's it's counterintuitor, isn't it. But but these were 0:30:18.200 --> 0:30:21.479 fields in Shocks. This is a mostly Jewish private school. 0:30:21.600 --> 0:30:25.040 This this was not providing players for the NFL or NBA. 0:30:25.160 --> 0:30:28.760 You know. Um, but he uh, he was. He was 0:30:28.800 --> 0:30:31.240 a good guy and he was he was. Everybody loved Gil. 0:30:31.280 --> 0:30:32.959 He got along with kind of all the different cliques 0:30:33.480 --> 0:30:35.360 and and and I considered him a friend and he 0:30:35.520 --> 0:30:38.320 and I saw him in subsequent years at different times 0:30:38.320 --> 0:30:40.320 in both of our lives. You know, Now, any of 0:30:40.360 --> 0:30:45.440 your contemporaries from Fieldston become notable on the scene, Oh, 0:30:46.360 --> 0:30:49.280 I don't know. I would say he was by far 0:30:49.680 --> 0:30:56.280 the most spectacular public figure from our particular class. Okay, 0:30:56.280 --> 0:30:58.320 so you graduate from Fieldson and you go to college 0:30:58.320 --> 0:31:01.680 where I got it into the University of California at 0:31:01.680 --> 0:31:05.160 Berkeley because I was an underachiever, as they used to 0:31:05.200 --> 0:31:07.200 call us, a d D people in those days, do 0:31:07.320 --> 0:31:10.280 you consider yourself to have a d D? In retrospect? 0:31:10.360 --> 0:31:13.000 I know what it was? That the story, that's the 0:31:13.000 --> 0:31:16.760 story I tell myself now for being such a mediocre student. 0:31:16.760 --> 0:31:20.800 Who knows but I um, but but but I was 0:31:20.840 --> 0:31:23.280 a good test taker. And Berkeley was one of the 0:31:23.320 --> 0:31:25.200 schools that only looked at the S A T. S. 0:31:25.240 --> 0:31:28.400 So the guidance people said, don't even those are the 0:31:28.400 --> 0:31:30.320 only colleges you should apply to, because if they look 0:31:30.360 --> 0:31:32.320 at your grades, they're not gonna want you, you know. 0:31:33.000 --> 0:31:36.680 And I spent an entire week going to classes and 0:31:36.720 --> 0:31:38.760 that was it. I just was only into drugs at 0:31:38.840 --> 0:31:42.480 that time, and so I dropped out literally after one week. 0:31:42.640 --> 0:31:45.120 This is the fall of sixty No, no, this is 0:31:46.400 --> 0:31:49.680 this is the fall of sixties seven. I graduated from 0:31:49.760 --> 0:31:52.920 high school in June sixty seven and go I wind 0:31:52.960 --> 0:31:56.080 up in Berkeley, and okay, sixty seven. Okay, so that 0:31:56.240 --> 0:31:58.640 is literally just at the end of the summer of law. 0:31:58.840 --> 0:32:00.640 Just missed the summer of law. Yeah, so by the 0:32:00.680 --> 0:32:03.680 time I visited Hay to Ashbury, it was it was 0:32:03.760 --> 0:32:09.000 already kind of ruined by the influx of junkies and predators. 0:32:09.080 --> 0:32:12.760 And I mostly stayed in Berkeley, but I did. But 0:32:12.800 --> 0:32:14.640 I saw it right after the Summer of Love. The 0:32:14.680 --> 0:32:17.840 real summer of love, I think, having just written a 0:32:17.840 --> 0:32:20.160 book about this, was really sixty six. That was the 0:32:20.240 --> 0:32:24.040 real idealistic period. Sixty seven was the media summer of love. 0:32:24.680 --> 0:32:27.760 Although many people think sixty eight was the summer of love. 0:32:27.920 --> 0:32:31.200 Who weren't around that today was the summer of assassination 0:32:31.960 --> 0:32:34.160 was certainly that was when the mains just started to 0:32:34.160 --> 0:32:36.240 get included in. But you're in Berkeley, which is a 0:32:36.280 --> 0:32:39.720 hot bit of radicalization, and could you still feel that 0:32:39.800 --> 0:32:42.880 even though Mario Savio was before that, etcetera. Well, there 0:32:42.960 --> 0:32:45.880 was a schism. It wasn't an official schism, but there 0:32:45.960 --> 0:32:48.520 was the fact of schism among people that were kind 0:32:48.520 --> 0:32:52.760 of long haired, people that were generally rebellious baby boomer 0:32:53.120 --> 0:32:56.720 anti war types, between people that were sort of into 0:32:56.760 --> 0:33:00.120 the seeing political radicalism in the anti war move as 0:33:00.120 --> 0:33:03.240 their number one priority, and people who saw getting high 0:33:03.320 --> 0:33:05.560 as their number one priority. And I was in the 0:33:05.640 --> 0:33:08.760 latter group. I was an asset head who was against 0:33:08.760 --> 0:33:11.400 the war and proudly against it. I had no ambiguity 0:33:11.440 --> 0:33:13.280 about it. But I didn't want to sit in meetings. 0:33:13.360 --> 0:33:15.560 I was never part of STS. I was really mainly 0:33:15.600 --> 0:33:18.400 into getting high. Okay, So were you into getting high 0:33:18.400 --> 0:33:21.840 in high school? I was okay? So why do you 0:33:21.840 --> 0:33:24.000 You just doubled down when you get to Berkeley? Correct? 0:33:24.000 --> 0:33:26.960 Because I didn't have parents to come home to anymore. Okay, 0:33:26.960 --> 0:33:29.840 So you literally stopped going to classes after one week? Correct? 0:33:30.000 --> 0:33:32.600 And but you're living in the dorm. No, at Berkeley, 0:33:32.640 --> 0:33:34.880 you did not have to live in the dorm. So 0:33:35.000 --> 0:33:37.640 Joel Goodman, the fellow I mentioned you before, also went 0:33:37.680 --> 0:33:40.760 to Berkeley and we shared an apartment. It was actually 0:33:40.760 --> 0:33:43.560 in a town called Albany, California, that's just passed the 0:33:43.600 --> 0:33:46.920 border of just slightly north of of Berkeley. So we 0:33:46.920 --> 0:33:49.800 we had an apartment and we're not in a dorm. Well, 0:33:49.800 --> 0:33:52.000 so what? And he continue to go to school. He 0:33:52.120 --> 0:33:54.120 stayed in Berkeley for about another year, and then he 0:33:54.200 --> 0:33:56.280 later became a film editor. You'll see his name on 0:33:56.320 --> 0:33:59.480 the credits of many TV series and the movies and 0:33:59.520 --> 0:34:01.880 so on. He Okay, so you're there. You you stopped 0:34:01.880 --> 0:34:05.520 going to class for uh after week. You know you 0:34:05.560 --> 0:34:08.200 know something is coming. There's a bell that's gonna be wrong. 0:34:08.280 --> 0:34:10.759 Your parents are gonna freak out. So what's going through 0:34:10.800 --> 0:34:14.279 your head? You know? I this was not the time 0:34:14.280 --> 0:34:16.640 in my life when I was the most clear thinking. 0:34:17.280 --> 0:34:20.279 Um what was I was really thinking everything in terms 0:34:20.320 --> 0:34:23.160 of sort of the next twenty four hours, and I 0:34:23.239 --> 0:34:28.120 really became a druggie. I'm not particularly proud of it. 0:34:28.200 --> 0:34:31.000 I think that the psychedelics played a positive role for 0:34:31.040 --> 0:34:33.040 me at one moment in my life, but thereafter I 0:34:33.080 --> 0:34:36.520 was just into taking all kinds of drugs, including you know, 0:34:36.680 --> 0:34:38.840 meth and heroin and everything. And I got arrested in 0:34:38.880 --> 0:34:42.040 May of sixty eight wandering around asking a cop for 0:34:42.080 --> 0:34:44.960 directions when I was very, very stoned, and it was 0:34:45.040 --> 0:34:49.040 obviously subconsciously something I wanted to do. It's scared, you know, 0:34:49.080 --> 0:34:51.520 I was scared straight, as the expression goes. I spent 0:34:51.600 --> 0:34:55.080 six days and Alameda County Juvenile All my parents found 0:34:55.080 --> 0:34:57.400 some laurying got me out. It was before my eighteenth birthday, 0:34:57.400 --> 0:34:59.680 and the lawyers were not as strict then, and and 0:35:00.000 --> 0:35:03.240 I I didn't. I don't think I took any drugs 0:35:03.280 --> 0:35:04.640 or had a glass of wine for a ten or 0:35:04.680 --> 0:35:07.879 fifteen years after that. Really, you were literally scared. I 0:35:07.920 --> 0:35:10.600 was like I, I don't understand a lot of things 0:35:10.640 --> 0:35:12.840 about life, but I never want to put myself in 0:35:12.840 --> 0:35:15.360 that position again. You know, that was very clear. I 0:35:15.400 --> 0:35:17.799 got lucky nobody raped me or beat me up. I was, 0:35:18.239 --> 0:35:20.319 but I never wanted to be in that situation again. 0:35:20.440 --> 0:35:22.960 How about today? I still don't want to be in jail. 0:35:23.120 --> 0:35:25.640 But would you imbibe any uh? I don't have a 0:35:25.680 --> 0:35:27.600 social glass of wine or smoke a joint. You know 0:35:27.680 --> 0:35:29.839 I'm not. I'm not a twelve step person that many 0:35:29.840 --> 0:35:32.359 of the people closest to me are. But but in 0:35:32.400 --> 0:35:39.839 the in the extreme moderation, we'll take a quick break 0:35:39.880 --> 0:35:42.520 and come back with more of my conversation with Danny Goldberg, 0:35:42.960 --> 0:35:49.080 recording it at the Tune in studios in Venice, California. 0:35:49.840 --> 0:35:52.960 I love sitting down with music industry veterans like Danny 0:35:53.280 --> 0:35:56.640 and traveling back in time and getting their history. I 0:35:56.760 --> 0:35:59.400 love getting to the heart of a person's story, whether 0:35:59.480 --> 0:36:03.160 they're perform warmer, a manager, a record label executive, or 0:36:03.200 --> 0:36:05.480 just someone on the street. Everyone's got a story and 0:36:05.520 --> 0:36:08.120 I want to hear it. This week, Danny Goldberg tells 0:36:08.200 --> 0:36:11.520 us all about his roles in the music business. Previously, 0:36:11.640 --> 0:36:15.320 we talked with artists like Cascade, Moby and Shirley Manson 0:36:15.360 --> 0:36:18.560 of Garbage. Whether you come from the music conversation or 0:36:18.640 --> 0:36:21.319 learn more about the business, be the first to hear 0:36:21.440 --> 0:36:24.719 next week's episode by subscribing to the podcast on tune in, 0:36:25.160 --> 0:36:28.840 Apple or your podcast host of choice. If you like 0:36:28.960 --> 0:36:32.000 what you hear, please rate, review, and of course tell 0:36:32.040 --> 0:36:35.040 your friends they'll dig it to. Okay, let's get back 0:36:35.040 --> 0:36:39.440 to my conversation with Danny Goldberg. Okay, so when do 0:36:39.520 --> 0:36:41.680 your parents wake up to the fact you ain't going 0:36:41.719 --> 0:36:44.319 to school. I think when they got the call from 0:36:44.360 --> 0:36:46.920 the jail was when they woke up to it. And 0:36:47.000 --> 0:36:50.120 so how pissed were they? They were devastated. My poor parents. 0:36:50.160 --> 0:36:53.640 They were such lovely people, and I got very close 0:36:53.680 --> 0:36:55.640 to them by the time I hit my thirties, but 0:36:56.320 --> 0:36:58.520 you know, at that time in my life, I just 0:36:58.560 --> 0:37:00.560 didn't want them in my head. They they were I 0:37:00.680 --> 0:37:02.799 if I get to be born again and live on 0:37:02.840 --> 0:37:04.720 a planet like this, and I can pick my parents. 0:37:04.800 --> 0:37:07.800 I'm fine to have the same parents. They were really interesting, 0:37:07.880 --> 0:37:10.719 loving people, and I became particularly close to my dad, 0:37:10.760 --> 0:37:14.600 who outlived my mom and and who was the not 0:37:14.719 --> 0:37:17.080 the disciplinarian of the two of them, and was the 0:37:17.160 --> 0:37:20.640 unconditional love guy. But they were just freaked out. I mean, 0:37:20.640 --> 0:37:22.600 they didn't understand it. They were worried that I'd ruined 0:37:22.640 --> 0:37:24.960 my life. But you know, within you know, I got 0:37:25.000 --> 0:37:28.080 a job. I got the job working for Billboard. Remember 0:37:28.120 --> 0:37:30.160 of that year. Okay, you're in Berkeley, you get out 0:37:30.200 --> 0:37:32.319 of juvenile hall, you go back to your parents. I 0:37:32.360 --> 0:37:34.640 have to go back. The condition of my release was 0:37:35.440 --> 0:37:37.880 that I would not be in California for a year, 0:37:37.920 --> 0:37:41.400 that i'd get therapy, and and so I'm living in 0:37:41.400 --> 0:37:44.520 their apartment going to some kind of group therapy that 0:37:44.680 --> 0:37:47.319 was for people with drug problems. Was that beneficial at all? 0:37:47.400 --> 0:37:50.920 It was? First of all, I was so surprising to 0:37:50.960 --> 0:37:54.000 me that other people had problems. I thought I was 0:37:54.040 --> 0:37:56.600 the only one I had problems. So just that sheer 0:37:56.680 --> 0:37:59.200 fact of sitting in a group. And what was really 0:37:59.239 --> 0:38:02.040 amazing to me was that older people had problems, because 0:38:02.080 --> 0:38:04.719 I thought only people my age had problems. So just 0:38:04.800 --> 0:38:08.239 in terms of that superficial getting out of my own 0:38:08.400 --> 0:38:12.120 self centered nous, it was hugely helpful. And there was 0:38:12.160 --> 0:38:15.160 one therapist there named Ralph Ricky. I think he's passed away, 0:38:15.160 --> 0:38:18.239 that I still remember that that that that he just 0:38:18.280 --> 0:38:20.080 helped me feel a little bit better about myself. I 0:38:20.120 --> 0:38:22.480 only went for Bad five or six months, and then 0:38:22.520 --> 0:38:26.600 I by the fall, this was June, and by September 0:38:27.000 --> 0:38:28.640 I got the job at Billboard. How did you get 0:38:28.680 --> 0:38:30.919 the job at Billboard? And The New York Times really 0:38:32.040 --> 0:38:35.200 says magazine clerk wanted for magazine. I had no idea 0:38:35.239 --> 0:38:37.480 what Billboard was. I didn't know there was a music business. 0:38:37.520 --> 0:38:39.160 I just loved rock and roll as a fan. I 0:38:39.200 --> 0:38:41.279 didn't know there was a whole business and that it 0:38:41.320 --> 0:38:44.200 would be a trade magazine about it, or three trade 0:38:44.200 --> 0:38:47.759 magazines about it. But you know, I figured magazine. I'd 0:38:47.760 --> 0:38:50.040 written for the high school newspaper. I figured the other 0:38:50.120 --> 0:38:52.520 job that I could get was key punch operator for 0:38:52.560 --> 0:38:56.439 Sears Roebuck and writer. You know, magazine just sounded better 0:38:56.480 --> 0:39:00.680 to me than Sears Roll. Did it say Billboard? Uh? 0:39:00.719 --> 0:39:03.600 I don't remember, But I didn't know what Billboard was. 0:39:03.760 --> 0:39:06.399 I didn't really unders thinking of other competition. Other people 0:39:06.520 --> 0:39:09.520 might want that gig. Well, I don't know, you know, 0:39:10.440 --> 0:39:12.879 nobody knew what the music business was then later on 0:39:13.480 --> 0:39:15.880 USA today, the New York Times would print charts and 0:39:15.880 --> 0:39:19.640 they'd beat you. Developed subsequent generations understood there were things 0:39:19.680 --> 0:39:23.000 called record companies and managers and agents, and it became 0:39:23.040 --> 0:39:27.400 part of popular conversation. At that time. Nobody knew anything 0:39:27.440 --> 0:39:30.239 about this except people that were in the business. So 0:39:30.360 --> 0:39:32.040 I certainly didn't know what billboard was, and I really 0:39:32.080 --> 0:39:34.520 didn't understand what it was when I started the first 0:39:34.560 --> 0:39:37.000 day and I was leafing through it, and they had 0:39:37.040 --> 0:39:39.840 pictures of like Janis Joplin and people that I liked, 0:39:39.840 --> 0:39:42.319 in addition to kind of country artists and R and 0:39:42.360 --> 0:39:45.120 B artists. And the job was in the chart department, 0:39:45.719 --> 0:39:47.920 where there was no bar codes then. So the way 0:39:47.960 --> 0:39:50.080 they compiled the charts what they had seven or eight 0:39:50.120 --> 0:39:54.040 of us called stores three or four three three days 0:39:54.040 --> 0:39:56.480 a week. We would call the stores and read a 0:39:56.600 --> 0:39:59.200 checklist of all the singles that were on the list 0:39:59.239 --> 0:40:01.640 and ask to people who answered the phone or is 0:40:01.640 --> 0:40:04.799 it selling heavy, medium, light or not at all? And 0:40:04.840 --> 0:40:08.319 then what's your top ten selling albums, and then I 0:40:08.360 --> 0:40:10.600 had and then some of us had specialties. Mind was 0:40:10.680 --> 0:40:13.120 classical music, so I would also have a list of 0:40:13.120 --> 0:40:16.279 classical stories to call to compile the classical chart. And 0:40:16.320 --> 0:40:19.360 then we and then then one day we'd spent compiling 0:40:19.520 --> 0:40:23.480 the now would be called data. And then then then 0:40:23.520 --> 0:40:25.839 the fifth day we'd answer the phone when people called 0:40:25.840 --> 0:40:27.880 all day asking where their record was on the charts. 0:40:28.520 --> 0:40:31.200 So if there are five other people doing this and 0:40:31.239 --> 0:40:34.040 you're basically a data technician, you're not on the fast 0:40:34.120 --> 0:40:39.680 road anywhere. Well what happened is they were. I discovered 0:40:40.560 --> 0:40:42.880 that there was this thing called the music business, and 0:40:42.920 --> 0:40:48.000 there were people. I discovered two things pretty quickly. Number one, 0:40:48.000 --> 0:40:51.440 there were people and another side of the office that 0:40:51.640 --> 0:40:55.800 got to go to concerts for free and got free records, 0:40:55.840 --> 0:40:57.920 and all they had to do was write their opinions 0:40:57.960 --> 0:41:01.200 about them. And I had pretty low self esteem, but 0:41:01.280 --> 0:41:04.239 I knew I could do that. You have plenty of yeah, 0:41:04.440 --> 0:41:07.920 especially about music, you know, especially about the kind of 0:41:07.960 --> 0:41:10.400 music that I that I like. So I was immediately, 0:41:10.440 --> 0:41:11.680 how do I get that job? How do I get 0:41:11.680 --> 0:41:13.759 that job? But no, no, no, no, there's that you 0:41:13.800 --> 0:41:17.359 have to be credentialed. And but what what happened is 0:41:18.080 --> 0:41:20.880 that by nagging enough. It was a small enough office, 0:41:21.400 --> 0:41:24.120 there were there were certain assignments that none of the 0:41:24.200 --> 0:41:28.279 staff writers could cover, and so within a few months 0:41:28.360 --> 0:41:31.879 they would let me as a freelancer do pieces that 0:41:32.040 --> 0:41:36.960 nobody else none of the states remember. The first one 0:41:37.000 --> 0:41:40.000 ever was a banned on Atlantic called Mr Flood's Party. 0:41:40.320 --> 0:41:42.160 I don't even remember that. No, they were a flop. 0:41:42.680 --> 0:41:46.520 They played at the Steve Poles the Scene and um, 0:41:47.239 --> 0:41:52.200 I wrote one that I do remember, um about the Rascals. 0:41:52.239 --> 0:41:55.279 The Rascals played at an outdoor venue in Queens. I 0:41:55.280 --> 0:41:57.360 think it was called the Pavilion. It was on the 0:41:57.400 --> 0:42:01.160 side of what had previously been the World's Fair. And um, 0:42:02.520 --> 0:42:05.840 and I wrote, um, and I love the Rascals. But 0:42:05.960 --> 0:42:07.440 I knew I'm supposed to be a critic, so I'm 0:42:07.440 --> 0:42:09.560 supposed to say something critical or I'm not really a critic. 0:42:10.000 --> 0:42:12.880 So I said, well, feelis cavalerian Eddie Brigotti sound amazing 0:42:13.000 --> 0:42:15.680 vocalist and the songs are great, And I said and 0:42:15.680 --> 0:42:19.319 and and Gene Cornish twanged his guitar. Because this was 0:42:19.360 --> 0:42:22.239 the era of guitar heroes. You have Jimmy Hendrix and 0:42:22.320 --> 0:42:25.560 Eric Clapton and you know Jeff Beck and you know 0:42:25.840 --> 0:42:28.520 these amazing guitar players. And he was like, you know 0:42:28.520 --> 0:42:33.080 the rascals guitar. So on Monday, which was in the magazine, 0:42:33.160 --> 0:42:39.359 is published The Phone Rings and it's Gene Cornish and 0:42:39.400 --> 0:42:43.600 he says, um, what do you mean I twanged my guitary? 0:42:43.600 --> 0:42:45.640 Do you know how long I practiced to learn other players? 0:42:45.800 --> 0:42:47.640 I have a lot of I said, I didn't mean 0:42:47.640 --> 0:42:50.000 it as a criticism. I I just, uh, you know, 0:42:50.080 --> 0:42:53.640 I was so I felt so terrible. I didn't know 0:42:53.680 --> 0:42:56.680 that these people in bands were human beings that would 0:42:56.880 --> 0:42:59.040 read or care about anything like this. I was just 0:42:59.080 --> 0:43:02.160 trying to look like I was a critic, and after 0:43:02.200 --> 0:43:04.239 that it was very hard for me to criticize musicians, 0:43:04.360 --> 0:43:05.920 you know. And that's why I ended up being a 0:43:06.000 --> 0:43:08.640 much better publicist than I was a critic. Okay, So 0:43:08.680 --> 0:43:11.440 if you're starting to fall of sixty eight, let's go 0:43:11.520 --> 0:43:13.759 back to the additional question. You end up being the 0:43:13.800 --> 0:43:16.759 writer for Woodstock, So then then I'm still at Billboard 0:43:17.040 --> 0:43:21.760 by by August of sixty nine, when when Woodstock happens 0:43:21.800 --> 0:43:23.920 and none of the writers wanted to cover it because 0:43:23.960 --> 0:43:26.640 a good assignment for a Billboard writer. These were old 0:43:26.640 --> 0:43:31.359 guys like thirty five, you know, totally different generation than 0:43:31.400 --> 0:43:34.400 a nineteen year old, and they they wanted to go 0:43:34.480 --> 0:43:37.680 to clubs like the Copacabana where you got a free 0:43:37.840 --> 0:43:40.759 drinks and free dinner. Those were the assignments that were 0:43:40.760 --> 0:43:43.279 coveted by the staff writers. Nobody wanted to slep up 0:43:43.280 --> 0:43:45.200 to the country. They didn't care about these artists. They 0:43:45.200 --> 0:43:48.719 were ten fifteen years older, and so nobody wanted to go. 0:43:48.880 --> 0:43:50.360 So they somebody said, do you want to go? I 0:43:50.360 --> 0:43:52.920 said yes, So I went there in a limo with 0:43:53.000 --> 0:43:56.680 the public The publicist for Woodstock was a woman named 0:43:56.719 --> 0:43:58.719 Jane Friedman, who is still alive. I think she runs 0:43:58.719 --> 0:44:02.279 an art gallery in Soho. Now and uh, stop for 0:44:02.360 --> 0:44:05.080 one second. Are you making enough money at Billboard to 0:44:05.160 --> 0:44:06.960 live in your own place? You're living with your parents? 0:44:06.960 --> 0:44:08.840 Oh no, No. The minute I got the job, I 0:44:08.880 --> 0:44:11.200 got my own apartment. I was sharing it. Initially, I 0:44:11.200 --> 0:44:13.680 had apartment in Brooklyn. Initially I was sharing with Peter Connoy, 0:44:14.080 --> 0:44:15.680 who was a fieldstin friend of mine. He was a 0:44:15.760 --> 0:44:19.560 year older, first guy who's the first guy ever smoked 0:44:19.560 --> 0:44:23.040 pot with and his father was a great civil liberties 0:44:23.080 --> 0:44:25.080 and civil rights lawer. He had represented Dr King and 0:44:25.120 --> 0:44:29.239 Adam Clayton Powell and other other people. But Peter like 0:44:29.360 --> 0:44:33.680 getting high, you know, and uh and and then after 0:44:33.800 --> 0:44:36.080 I saved up about a thousand dollars, which was like 0:44:36.120 --> 0:44:40.280 this huge milestone when of my savings account was four figures, 0:44:40.840 --> 0:44:43.640 I got an apartment on St. Mark's Place by myself. 0:44:44.239 --> 0:44:46.680 So I don't remember when Woodstock happened, if I was 0:44:46.719 --> 0:44:48.359 still in Brooklyn, or if I had moved to sing. 0:44:48.400 --> 0:44:51.200 So you're going in the limo with Jane Friedman. It 0:44:51.320 --> 0:44:54.400 was me, Jane Friedman, and there was a writer named Vincelletti. 0:44:54.880 --> 0:44:57.720 Roll wrote at that time for a magazine called Rat. 0:44:57.719 --> 0:44:59.880 He later became kind of a village voice writer and 0:45:00.040 --> 0:45:05.560 particular expertise on R and B and disco. And I'm 0:45:05.600 --> 0:45:07.480 trying to think if anyone else was in the car. 0:45:07.520 --> 0:45:09.520 I know it was me, Vinceletti and Jane Free. Okay, 0:45:09.560 --> 0:45:11.400 So you're going to go in the car to Woodstock, 0:45:11.440 --> 0:45:15.440 and you're going to stay where in a hotel? They 0:45:15.480 --> 0:45:17.799 were the publicists for Woodstock. They had a group of 0:45:17.880 --> 0:45:21.040 rooms for the writers. And so I may get money, 0:45:21.200 --> 0:45:24.440 did you make it to the hotel, Yeah, definitely. Okay, 0:45:24.480 --> 0:45:26.520 So do you hit any trap if they if the 0:45:26.560 --> 0:45:29.560 first day of shows was Friday? Did you go on Friday? 0:45:29.600 --> 0:45:32.440 Did you go on Thursday? You know? All I remember 0:45:32.600 --> 0:45:35.080 is that when I finally got to the site of 0:45:35.120 --> 0:45:39.399 the festival, the band that was playing was Santana. So 0:45:40.280 --> 0:45:43.439 in my mind it was the first day. But it's 0:45:43.440 --> 0:45:46.000 a long time ago, and a lot of my memories 0:45:46.040 --> 0:45:48.440 of Woodstock are commingled with the memories of watching the 0:45:48.440 --> 0:45:52.080 Woodstock movie. I'm not sure which are my memories in 0:45:52.080 --> 0:45:54.719 which I'm just remembering seeing in the movie, but I 0:45:54.760 --> 0:45:57.320 do remember it was Santana and I've never heard of Santana, 0:45:57.800 --> 0:46:00.320 and I walked up and I asked, these people aren't like, 0:46:00.360 --> 0:46:02.000 who's that, you know? And it was the town and 0:46:02.000 --> 0:46:04.279 they're amazing, and it was so that's like one of 0:46:04.280 --> 0:46:08.080 my They were definitely on because they were so good 0:46:08.120 --> 0:46:09.879 and they were brand new to me at that time, 0:46:10.200 --> 0:46:12.920 and so I happen to remember that now. Certainly it's 0:46:13.080 --> 0:46:15.520 iconic at this point, But in terms of the experience, 0:46:15.560 --> 0:46:19.280 what did you think, Well, what I felt was, even 0:46:19.280 --> 0:46:22.600 though I hadn't been taking drugs for more than a 0:46:22.719 --> 0:46:25.319 year and was really committed to the idea that I'm 0:46:25.360 --> 0:46:27.480 not that guy anymore. Who's who's going to screw up 0:46:27.520 --> 0:46:31.480 my life by taking drugs. I still completely identified with 0:46:31.520 --> 0:46:36.799 the romance of hippie culture. And I was so moved 0:46:36.800 --> 0:46:41.000 by the audience and the crowd and the and the 0:46:41.040 --> 0:46:45.959 camaraderie and sweetness of everybody there that that's my main 0:46:46.080 --> 0:46:48.839 memory more than the music. It was, it was, it was, 0:46:49.719 --> 0:46:52.080 it was you know, it turned out to be the 0:46:52.200 --> 0:46:54.799 end of something, not the beginning of something, but it 0:46:54.920 --> 0:46:59.720 was something in that moment that I was very moved by. So, okay, 0:46:59.760 --> 0:47:02.160 you pored on that for Billboard and they put on 0:47:02.200 --> 0:47:03.920 the front page. The only time I ever had a 0:47:03.920 --> 0:47:06.520 front page story in Billboard. They let me write. Usually 0:47:06.520 --> 0:47:08.839 I'd have to write like three words. This I think 0:47:08.840 --> 0:47:10.600 they let me write a couple of thousand words because 0:47:10.600 --> 0:47:12.400 it was a big turned out to be a big story, 0:47:12.840 --> 0:47:14.640 and I was the only Billboard guy that was there. 0:47:15.000 --> 0:47:17.279 And how much long do you stay at Billboard before 0:47:17.280 --> 0:47:20.120 you become a publicist. Well, I went through a series 0:47:20.280 --> 0:47:22.719 there was a gap in between Billboard. I went through 0:47:22.760 --> 0:47:26.799 a series of of of of short term jobs. First 0:47:26.840 --> 0:47:29.319 of all, I went from Billboard to Record World, which 0:47:29.360 --> 0:47:31.799 was one of the three because Record World was a 0:47:31.800 --> 0:47:35.440 competitive Billboard, but a Record World, I didn't have to 0:47:35.440 --> 0:47:37.880 be in the chart department anymore. I was just hired 0:47:37.920 --> 0:47:41.360 as a writer. So that was a huge step forward 0:47:41.400 --> 0:47:45.080 because I was only writing periodically as a freelancer while 0:47:45.080 --> 0:47:47.200 still having to be in the chart department. A Record World, 0:47:47.200 --> 0:47:52.080 I had a weekly column called Getting It Together, and 0:47:52.080 --> 0:47:54.120 and I reviewed shows, and I interviewed people and I 0:47:54.160 --> 0:47:56.319 wrote story. So that was a full time writing job. 0:47:56.840 --> 0:47:59.439 And then I got fired from that because I kept 0:47:59.440 --> 0:48:03.560 coming in eight You know, I hadn't completely mastered this 0:48:03.600 --> 0:48:06.800 adult thing yet. Uh. It's so funny because now the 0:48:06.920 --> 0:48:08.759 last thirty or forty years, when I have people who 0:48:08.800 --> 0:48:12.200 work from you coming late, I really don't like it. Well, 0:48:12.200 --> 0:48:15.919 what's your definition of late? Uh? You know, if it's 0:48:16.000 --> 0:48:18.640 more than it depends on the Like our office now, 0:48:18.680 --> 0:48:21.920 in my little company, we look at ten o'clock as 0:48:21.960 --> 0:48:24.799 a time. Other companies I had at nine o'clock. But 0:48:24.840 --> 0:48:27.719 to me, if it's more than twenty minutes, it's late, right, 0:48:27.760 --> 0:48:29.160 I just meant the time that you would have to 0:48:29.320 --> 0:48:32.080 arrive so you get can from Record World. So I 0:48:32.120 --> 0:48:34.080 got caned from Billboard. Then I got Can from Record World. 0:48:34.120 --> 0:48:37.160 No no, you didn't tell me you got Key No no, no, no, right, right, 0:48:37.200 --> 0:48:40.680 I went from Billboard to Record right then. Um, there 0:48:40.719 --> 0:48:43.160 was about a year where I worked for Circus Magazine. 0:48:43.960 --> 0:48:46.239 I think I had the title of managing editor of that, 0:48:46.480 --> 0:48:50.600 and that was so sort of a cross between sixteen 0:48:50.640 --> 0:48:54.240 Magazine and Rolling Stone, right, it was. It was going, 0:48:54.960 --> 0:48:57.279 That's a good description of it. It was certainly for 0:48:57.400 --> 0:48:59.840 more for males and girls. You know, it was a 0:49:00.080 --> 0:49:02.719 little bit older audience than sixteen. And it was a 0:49:02.840 --> 0:49:05.239 rock magazine. There were no pop, no Bobby Sherman, no 0:49:05.400 --> 0:49:08.600 David Cassidy. It was it was rock. But the thing 0:49:08.680 --> 0:49:11.360 that roll that Circus had that Rolling Stone even didn't 0:49:11.360 --> 0:49:15.080 have at that time was color pictures. Rolling Stone later 0:49:15.160 --> 0:49:18.000 got colored, but for this brief period, so Circus had 0:49:18.080 --> 0:49:21.160 shorter articles, but we had some of the Rolling Stone 0:49:21.239 --> 0:49:24.480 typewriters like Paul Nelson wrote also for Circus, and a 0:49:24.520 --> 0:49:26.359 lot of the people who wrote for Rolling Stone would 0:49:26.360 --> 0:49:28.479 also write pieces for Circus. To pick up an extra 0:49:28.480 --> 0:49:32.080 fifty hundred bucks, you have another outlet or or whatever. 0:49:32.280 --> 0:49:35.080 And so I did that for about a year and 0:49:35.120 --> 0:49:38.840 then I got a job working for Albert Grossman's publishing 0:49:38.880 --> 0:49:41.399 company that I wasn't any good at. But I got 0:49:41.400 --> 0:49:43.640 to meet Albert Grossman, who was my great hero of mine, 0:49:43.640 --> 0:49:45.680 who's Bob Dylan's manager, and I've seen him in that 0:49:45.719 --> 0:49:48.239 movie Don't Look Back. And at least I got to 0:49:48.239 --> 0:49:51.960 meet him, you know, at that time. And and then 0:49:52.080 --> 0:49:55.960 finally I was kind of desperate. I wasn't getting writing 0:49:55.960 --> 0:49:58.040 work anymore because I wasn't really that good a writer. 0:49:58.080 --> 0:50:00.480 I was just mostly into trying to meet girls and 0:50:00.520 --> 0:50:04.120 having friends and I wasn't serious about you know, there's 0:50:04.160 --> 0:50:09.000 this um website called my back Pages, uh that's out 0:50:09.000 --> 0:50:12.200 of England that compiles rock journalism. So they found a 0:50:12.280 --> 0:50:15.320 lot of my old articles, including especially the Circus articles, 0:50:15.360 --> 0:50:17.880 and it's I don't think I ever wrote a second 0:50:17.960 --> 0:50:20.800 draft of anything. It was all this. So I walked 0:50:20.800 --> 0:50:25.480 into the room and you know, Alvin Lee was just 0:50:25.640 --> 0:50:29.480 eating breakfast, and you know, I thought that's what journalism was. UM. 0:50:30.680 --> 0:50:32.680 So I couldn't I couldn't make it as a writer. 0:50:32.760 --> 0:50:34.680 And I got a job working for Lee S. Walters, 0:50:34.719 --> 0:50:39.520 who was the real rand old great show business uh, 0:50:39.560 --> 0:50:44.160 you know publicist he um one of One of the 0:50:44.200 --> 0:50:46.680 things that happened that was a big life changing experience 0:50:46.719 --> 0:50:48.920 for me when I was at Record World was I 0:50:49.040 --> 0:50:53.360 met a guy named Danny Fields. And Danny Fields I 0:50:53.360 --> 0:50:55.560 had read about because there had been an article about him. 0:50:55.600 --> 0:50:58.840 He had worked in Electra in in the in the 0:50:59.880 --> 0:51:03.920 eight period, where his actual title was company freak, and 0:51:04.080 --> 0:51:06.480 he then signed the m C five and the Stooges 0:51:06.560 --> 0:51:08.360 to Electorate. He later was one of the managers of 0:51:08.360 --> 0:51:12.160 the Ramons. He also, I believe, introduced the Louie to 0:51:12.239 --> 0:51:14.960 Andy Warhol. I mean, he's a great historical figureing. There's 0:51:14.960 --> 0:51:17.160 a documentary about him called Danny Says. It came out 0:51:17.160 --> 0:51:20.440 a few years ago, and he read a piece. The 0:51:20.640 --> 0:51:23.600 woman named Gloria Stavers, who was the editor of sixteen magazine, 0:51:24.400 --> 0:51:27.880 UM read everything and took notes, and she read a 0:51:27.920 --> 0:51:29.960 column that I wrote about the m C five for 0:51:30.080 --> 0:51:32.840 Record World and sent it to Danny. And Danny called 0:51:32.880 --> 0:51:36.640 me and said, uh, we should have lunch, you know, great, 0:51:36.680 --> 0:51:38.560 you know and and and then he took me the 0:51:38.600 --> 0:51:41.880 next night to Maxis, Kansas City, where I met Gloria. 0:51:42.160 --> 0:51:46.080 Woman named Lillian Rockson who was the Australian correspondent for 0:51:46.120 --> 0:51:48.640 the Sydney Morning Herald, who at the Encyclopedia of the 0:51:48.680 --> 0:51:52.520 Encyclopedia of Rock, and Steve Paul, who was Johnny Winter's 0:51:52.520 --> 0:51:54.319 manager and runs De Poils, and I met all of 0:51:54.360 --> 0:51:58.080 them the same night and they became the most important 0:51:58.080 --> 0:52:00.560 people in my life. For the next several years, I 0:52:00.600 --> 0:52:03.080 just would go to Max's every night, and it was 0:52:03.120 --> 0:52:05.319 my social life, was my professional life, and it was 0:52:05.360 --> 0:52:09.480 my identity and I it just conferred. Being Danny's friend 0:52:09.640 --> 0:52:13.600 was this instantly legitimacy in a culture that was a 0:52:13.719 --> 0:52:18.440 million times cooler than anything I'd ever encountered, And overnight 0:52:18.480 --> 0:52:21.640 I had an identity that I really owe him forever for. 0:52:22.520 --> 0:52:25.040 But I did find my own way. I mean, after 0:52:25.080 --> 0:52:27.560 the first night I could go myself. Mickey Ruskin, the 0:52:27.560 --> 0:52:30.040 guy who ran it, was just kind of if he 0:52:30.400 --> 0:52:32.440 you know, the big thing with Mickey Ruskin famously is 0:52:32.440 --> 0:52:34.279 if you came in a limo, he wouldn't let you in. 0:52:35.040 --> 0:52:36.840 You know, that wasn't what you know, he had like 0:52:36.880 --> 0:52:43.080 this inverse snobbery. So um so. Gloria became a good 0:52:43.120 --> 0:52:45.400 friend of mine and she was a mentor. She was 0:52:45.440 --> 0:52:49.200 such a glamorous person. She passed away. Uh, in her 0:52:49.239 --> 0:52:52.919 fifties from lung cancer. But she had an extraordinary life. 0:52:52.960 --> 0:52:55.759 First of all, she she invented a lot of you know, 0:52:55.840 --> 0:52:59.279 before Rolling Stone sixteen magazine was all there was. And 0:52:59.360 --> 0:53:01.520 she did some of the earliest interviews with Dylan and 0:53:01.560 --> 0:53:04.800 the Beatles and Elvis. And she did a thing about 0:53:04.920 --> 0:53:07.320 Rolling Stone when it first was published that Yan always 0:53:07.280 --> 0:53:11.400 said helped get them thousands of subscriptions. And and she 0:53:11.560 --> 0:53:14.239 had been Lenny Bruce's lover for the last several years 0:53:14.239 --> 0:53:18.120 of his life, which there was just no more awesome 0:53:18.160 --> 0:53:20.880 credential for me than someone who had known Lenny Bruce 0:53:20.920 --> 0:53:22.400 not to mention, and slept with him. So I just 0:53:22.520 --> 0:53:25.719 idolized her and did and and and she and she 0:53:25.840 --> 0:53:29.799 liked me, you know, so she she she um. When 0:53:29.800 --> 0:53:31.680 I was desperate for a job, she called Lee Alters 0:53:31.719 --> 0:53:34.840 and look, you know, if you want somebody to do 0:53:35.000 --> 0:53:36.799 rock and roll, this would this would this is this 0:53:36.840 --> 0:53:39.200 is who I would suggest. So Lee interviewed me, because 0:53:39.200 --> 0:53:44.160 of Glory's recommendation, hired me. And you know, within a 0:53:44.200 --> 0:53:45.759 few months he asked me if I thought it was 0:53:45.800 --> 0:53:49.040 a good idea for Salters and Roskin to do pr 0:53:49.080 --> 0:53:52.879 for led Zeppelin and I said yes, and he said, well, 0:53:52.920 --> 0:53:54.480 you'll have to deal with them because I'm the guy 0:53:54.520 --> 0:53:58.120 Lombardo generation. I said, you got it. So then I 0:53:58.160 --> 0:54:00.680 was Led Zeppelin's publicistem that's which kind of branded me 0:54:00.760 --> 0:54:02.440 for the rest of my career. Okay, so you were 0:54:02.480 --> 0:54:05.839 Led Zeppelin's publicist at what point in their seventy three 0:54:06.120 --> 0:54:09.279 The album was Houses of the Holy and they that 0:54:09.680 --> 0:54:11.839 album came out, and then they did an American tour 0:54:12.400 --> 0:54:15.000 and it was the tour where they sold out stadiums. 0:54:15.000 --> 0:54:18.000 One of them was Tampa, which was fifty hundred people, 0:54:18.000 --> 0:54:20.680 which was more people than so the Beatles and Jay Stadium. 0:54:20.760 --> 0:54:22.839 And I got a wire service story about it, and 0:54:23.840 --> 0:54:26.000 you know, I got Zeppelin really the first good press 0:54:26.040 --> 0:54:29.040 they'd ever had. People. They're so legendary and such an 0:54:29.080 --> 0:54:32.640 influence on the musical culture that it's hard for people 0:54:32.640 --> 0:54:35.360 who weren't around to realize they never got good reviews. 0:54:35.520 --> 0:54:40.359 The rock press hated Zeppelin in those years because they 0:54:40.400 --> 0:54:42.640 you know, they were they were Their audience was younger. 0:54:42.840 --> 0:54:45.800 The Rolling Stone writers were into The Stones, Dylan Cream 0:54:45.840 --> 0:54:48.280 and then Zeppelin comes along, and Zeppelin was made famous 0:54:48.320 --> 0:54:51.760 by radio, not by the press, and so they always 0:54:51.760 --> 0:54:54.719 got bad reviews. So by House of the Holy was 0:54:54.760 --> 0:54:56.759 their fifth album, and it was the first time they 0:54:56.800 --> 0:54:58.880 got good press. And it was just the planets lined up. 0:54:58.880 --> 0:55:00.239 I was in the right place of the right time, 0:55:00.239 --> 0:55:03.600 and I could help them do that, and they liked 0:55:03.640 --> 0:55:06.719 me enough to then hire me before they hired So, 0:55:07.400 --> 0:55:13.080 you know, Peter Grant is a legendary guy. The BM 0:55:13.120 --> 0:55:15.360 members are known as being off putting too. How do 0:55:15.400 --> 0:55:17.880 you ingretiate yourself with that? Well, you know, I was 0:55:17.920 --> 0:55:20.680 so nervous, Lee and I Lee came to the first meeting. 0:55:20.760 --> 0:55:22.680 He said, I'll come to the first meeting and after 0:55:22.760 --> 0:55:25.000 that I'm never going to see them again or meet 0:55:25.040 --> 0:55:26.759 them again. But I'll go to the first meeting because 0:55:27.000 --> 0:55:29.680 they were hiring lease authors. And we flew to Paris. 0:55:29.760 --> 0:55:32.600 They were playing at the Palais to Sports in Paris, 0:55:32.600 --> 0:55:35.879 and we stayed at some fancy George sand hotel which 0:55:35.920 --> 0:55:38.880 is where the Zeppelin was saying, I've never been to 0:55:39.000 --> 0:55:43.520 Europe before, you know, not to mention to Paris, and 0:55:43.560 --> 0:55:45.440 he says, so tell me about these guys. I said, Look, 0:55:45.440 --> 0:55:47.960 they got a really bad reputation with writers. I mean 0:55:48.000 --> 0:55:51.120 there was some writer named Ellen Sander who they supposedly 0:55:51.200 --> 0:55:54.839 threw things at and you know, they had, like what 0:55:54.920 --> 0:55:58.640 you're saying, a reputation of not being pleasant to strangers 0:55:58.719 --> 0:56:00.840 or people that weren't in their inn out, including and 0:56:00.880 --> 0:56:05.200 a particularly journalists because they viewed journalists as adversaries. I 0:56:05.200 --> 0:56:07.640 said there, like considered to be like barbarians. So we 0:56:07.680 --> 0:56:09.799 get to the meeting with Peter Grant. First we meet 0:56:09.840 --> 0:56:11.600 with Peter Grant, and then after that we meet with you. 0:56:11.760 --> 0:56:15.799 Who have it? Are you pitching? I don't really know, 0:56:16.080 --> 0:56:20.000 I mean Lee, they we flew over there. Um, I 0:56:20.040 --> 0:56:23.799 don't know how they came to him exactly. He was 0:56:23.880 --> 0:56:27.080 just to go to famous PR guy and they decided 0:56:27.120 --> 0:56:30.520 to go to him. I don't know really. Uh. In 0:56:30.640 --> 0:56:34.040 my understanding of it was that we had them, but 0:56:34.080 --> 0:56:35.879 I'm sure if they hadn't liked the meeting, they would 0:56:35.880 --> 0:56:40.520 have changed their mind. And um, so we're sitting there 0:56:40.560 --> 0:56:43.640 with Peter Grant, who is this three hundred plus pound 0:56:43.719 --> 0:56:50.520 former professional wrestler, wrestler, cockney accent, very intimidating, tough guy. 0:56:50.840 --> 0:56:54.080 And uh, I'd heard about Peter Grant, you know, and 0:56:54.160 --> 0:56:57.600 there was vague sense that he maybe new gangsters or 0:56:57.760 --> 0:56:59.400 could have been a thug or you know, it was 0:56:59.440 --> 0:57:05.759 a scary guy physically. And lisays, tell tell Peter, you 0:57:05.840 --> 0:57:07.759 tell me, tell tell him, tell tell him. You told me, 0:57:07.840 --> 0:57:12.319 tell about the Barbarians thing. So I said to Peter, look, 0:57:12.400 --> 0:57:15.520 you know, um, like I talked to some of the 0:57:15.520 --> 0:57:17.600 writers and you know, there's like this feeling like that 0:57:17.640 --> 0:57:21.440 the that the band is almost like barbarians. And he 0:57:21.480 --> 0:57:23.800 looked at me with this big smile. You know, Peter 0:57:24.160 --> 0:57:26.880 was brilliant. He wasn't only tough, he was the smartest 0:57:26.920 --> 0:57:28.960 manager of his generation and knew how to be charming. 0:57:29.000 --> 0:57:32.080 He looked at his big smile and he said, yeah, 0:57:32.080 --> 0:57:38.800 but we're just mild barbarians. So then we met with 0:57:38.840 --> 0:57:43.680 the band and uh, you know, uh it was fine. 0:57:43.760 --> 0:57:46.800 You know, they they they you know, they they wanted 0:57:46.840 --> 0:57:49.400 good press. Robert Plant in particular was sick of He 0:57:49.440 --> 0:57:51.360 wanted his parents and the people who grew up with 0:57:51.400 --> 0:57:53.920 to read about him. Also, they already were the biggest 0:57:53.920 --> 0:57:57.600 band commercially, and he he did most of the interviews. 0:57:57.680 --> 0:58:01.040 Jimmy Jimmy controlled things, but he was in the big schmoozer. 0:58:01.160 --> 0:58:03.800 Robert was the big mooser. Okay, so you're moving from 0:58:03.840 --> 0:58:09.080 writing publicity with essentially no training or track record. How 0:58:09.120 --> 0:58:12.400 do you pick it up? Well? Two things. One is 0:58:12.560 --> 0:58:15.919 I had friends who were writers. All my friends wrote 0:58:15.920 --> 0:58:17.840 about rock and roll. I had spent three or four 0:58:17.920 --> 0:58:20.680 years in this clique of people that revolved around Max's 0:58:20.760 --> 0:58:23.640 Kansas City writers and who were on the press list. 0:58:24.040 --> 0:58:26.160 There was like a party every night. I mean it 0:58:26.240 --> 0:58:28.720 was the boom period in the music business. You never 0:58:28.760 --> 0:58:30.720 had to pay for a meal or pay for a ticket. 0:58:31.280 --> 0:58:34.200 So I knew the New York writers and it was 0:58:34.240 --> 0:58:37.800 all about favors and hey, it's can you do this 0:58:37.880 --> 0:58:40.040 for me? So like Lilian Rockson did the first piece 0:58:40.920 --> 0:58:42.640 for the New York Daily News. By this time, in 0:58:42.720 --> 0:58:45.040 addition to the Australian paper, she was the rock writer 0:58:45.080 --> 0:58:46.480 for the New York Daily News, which at that time 0:58:46.480 --> 0:58:49.560 I had the biggest circulation of any American newspaper. She 0:58:49.640 --> 0:58:52.040 did a big full page in the Sunday and so 0:58:52.080 --> 0:58:54.160 she came to the airport and did a piece on them. 0:58:54.160 --> 0:58:56.560 And so I was into asking my friends for favors. 0:58:56.560 --> 0:58:59.680 And then Lee explained to me, Les Alters taught me publicity. 0:58:59.720 --> 0:59:02.760 He is different generation. He didn't care anything about rock 0:59:02.800 --> 0:59:05.800 and roll. He were suit every day. He was a 0:59:05.840 --> 0:59:09.160 guy that you know, knew, Walter Winchell. He was like 0:59:09.200 --> 0:59:13.000 from out of a forties movie. But um, he understood 0:59:13.040 --> 0:59:14.800 the rock and roll was this new thing that they 0:59:14.800 --> 0:59:16.520 wanted to have their piece of that pie, and that 0:59:16.600 --> 0:59:18.720 I was his guy with the long hair to do that. 0:59:19.360 --> 0:59:22.520 And he explained to me that if you had a 0:59:22.560 --> 0:59:24.800 good story, you didn't need to ask for a favor. 0:59:26.120 --> 0:59:28.560 That the idea was to create good stories and that 0:59:28.680 --> 0:59:31.880 was this huge paradigm shiffers. So he and the other publicists, 0:59:31.920 --> 0:59:35.320 it's olders. They were all older than me, and and 0:59:35.320 --> 0:59:38.600 and uh and hard bitten, but they they they took 0:59:38.600 --> 0:59:40.800 me under their wing and they showed me. They explained 0:59:40.800 --> 0:59:42.640 to me how to write a press release and you know, 0:59:42.720 --> 0:59:44.120 how to how to do it, you know, and it 0:59:44.160 --> 0:59:46.640 was like it was like going to Harvard for publicity. 0:59:47.200 --> 0:59:51.160 Did you like it? You know? I liked that I 0:59:51.320 --> 0:59:54.040 had a job. I had had spent three after you know, 0:59:54.080 --> 0:59:55.600 I had a few months where I didn't have a job. 0:59:55.640 --> 0:59:58.040 So I was like, I I liked that I had 0:59:58.040 --> 1:00:00.200 a job. And it occurred to me after are a 1:00:00.200 --> 1:00:03.560 couple of months that I was good at it. And 1:00:03.600 --> 1:00:05.080 it was the first time I'd ever felt I was 1:00:05.080 --> 1:00:06.960 any good at anything. I always felt like a complete 1:00:06.960 --> 1:00:09.360 fraud as a As a journalist, I knew I wasn't 1:00:09.400 --> 1:00:11.320 really as good as the really good writers. They were 1:00:11.400 --> 1:00:13.960 great writers. John Lynde was writing about rock and roll, 1:00:14.040 --> 1:00:17.120 then Paul Nelson. These were great writers. I knew I 1:00:17.160 --> 1:00:20.040 couldn't write as well as them. But I was really 1:00:20.040 --> 1:00:23.800 good at publicity because I was a fan and because um, 1:00:24.480 --> 1:00:26.760 you know, that fit my temperament better, like I said, 1:00:26.800 --> 1:00:28.800 being a fan instead of a critic. So within a 1:00:28.840 --> 1:00:31.680 pretty short amount of time I started to get, for 1:00:31.720 --> 1:00:33.400 the first time in my life, feeling I was good 1:00:33.400 --> 1:00:36.040 at something, and so I like that. So how did 1:00:36.080 --> 1:00:38.880 you end up working? Well? I did publicity for the 1:00:39.040 --> 1:00:42.360 for the seventy three tour, and then when they started Swansong, 1:00:42.400 --> 1:00:44.840 they offered me the job to be what Peter called 1:00:44.840 --> 1:00:50.400 his ambassador and in America, and I said, uh, well, 1:00:50.840 --> 1:00:53.040 could I have a title? He said, well, what title 1:00:53.080 --> 1:00:55.520 do you want? I said, I've had vice president of Swansong. 1:00:55.560 --> 1:00:58.240 He said fine, because there was no staff. Was he 1:00:58.280 --> 1:01:01.160 was president vice press or something about vice president of 1:01:01.240 --> 1:01:04.800 led Zeppelin's label. But yeah, they they had a good 1:01:04.960 --> 1:01:07.000 they liked me, you know, and and and and they 1:01:07.040 --> 1:01:10.360 needed somebody like in my category for for the new label. 1:01:10.440 --> 1:01:13.560 So they for me, were you making the money that 1:01:13.600 --> 1:01:17.120 would be aligned in one's brain with that title in 1:01:17.160 --> 1:01:22.080 that position, Well, I was making more money than I 1:01:22.120 --> 1:01:24.320 was making. Its salters, I think it's salters. I was 1:01:24.400 --> 1:01:28.800 making three hundred dollars a week. Um, this is seventy 1:01:28.920 --> 1:01:31.840 three so whatever inflation would be, you know, that's fifteen 1:01:31.840 --> 1:01:34.760 thousand a year. That's probably like making seventy five hundred 1:01:34.840 --> 1:01:39.200 thousand now, uh. And then and then I got a 1:01:39.200 --> 1:01:41.480 percentage of business I brought in. And the only business 1:01:41.480 --> 1:01:45.120 I ever brought in was Edgar and Johnny Winter, which 1:01:45.160 --> 1:01:48.800 was Steve Paul's clients. So maybe I was making three 1:01:48.920 --> 1:01:52.120 fifty a week. So then I started a Swan song 1:01:52.200 --> 1:01:53.920 at five hundred a week, so that was like a 1:01:54.000 --> 1:01:59.440 fift increase dollars a year. And I also um had 1:01:59.480 --> 1:02:03.200 an expand accounts, so I could take people to uh, 1:02:03.240 --> 1:02:06.040 you know, the fancy Italian restaurant around the corner, and 1:02:06.280 --> 1:02:08.840 and and they would pay for it. So that was 1:02:08.880 --> 1:02:11.000 a step up. And then after the first year they 1:02:11.040 --> 1:02:13.000 raised me to forty thousand dollars a year because we 1:02:13.040 --> 1:02:15.720 had a great first year. Bad Company record came out. 1:02:15.760 --> 1:02:17.880 Of course, it was the first release of Lanson was 1:02:17.960 --> 1:02:22.520 Bad Co number one album, number one single. So so 1:02:22.680 --> 1:02:26.560 you know, I was then twenty four. I was that 1:02:26.920 --> 1:02:30.400 was fine, you know. I was ambitious to kind of 1:02:30.440 --> 1:02:32.760 just be more in the business. But it was certainly 1:02:33.440 --> 1:02:36.040 for a guy who never had any college education. I 1:02:36.080 --> 1:02:41.240 suddenly was rebranded from being this failure to being this 1:02:41.360 --> 1:02:44.480 success in terms of just the way. Like my parents 1:02:44.520 --> 1:02:46.640 realized at a certain point when I was working for 1:02:46.720 --> 1:02:48.600 Zeppelin and my mother said, Danny, you ever think about 1:02:48.600 --> 1:02:52.120 maybe going back to college? And I said, month, did 1:02:52.120 --> 1:02:55.960 you know who Lie Zeppelin is? Okay, So were you 1:02:56.080 --> 1:03:01.360 working with the band during the famous era at the Cote, Yes, 1:03:01.640 --> 1:03:04.040 I was. That's why that's really where I bonded with 1:03:04.160 --> 1:03:07.040 I think that's why Peter Grant hired me is because 1:03:07.080 --> 1:03:10.000 that was in ninety three, and the story is that 1:03:10.040 --> 1:03:12.120 they had cash. It was the end of a tour 1:03:12.720 --> 1:03:15.040 and there was a lot of cash. Peter liked cash 1:03:15.600 --> 1:03:18.160 for whatever reason, and there was I think two thousand 1:03:18.160 --> 1:03:20.480 dollars in a safety deposit box of the Drake Hotel 1:03:20.560 --> 1:03:23.680 that disappeared, and it was front page of the newspapers, 1:03:24.040 --> 1:03:26.640 and I and and Peter is like, they're all freaked out. 1:03:26.680 --> 1:03:29.760 And Peter's freaked out, and and I said, you want 1:03:29.800 --> 1:03:32.840 me to call um? It was a guy named John Gibson, 1:03:32.880 --> 1:03:34.840 I think was the publicity guy at Atlantic. I said, 1:03:34.840 --> 1:03:36.520 you want me to call Bob Gibson. He says, no, 1:03:36.520 --> 1:03:38.360 I don't want anybody from Atlantic here. I want you 1:03:38.440 --> 1:03:42.360 to handle this. So and I had no idea that 1:03:42.400 --> 1:03:44.920 he would prefer me to somebody at the label, but 1:03:45.000 --> 1:03:48.800 to him, the label was them. And I worked for him, 1:03:48.880 --> 1:03:51.280 and and and and and that was the first time 1:03:51.280 --> 1:03:52.760 I even knew he liked me. I mean, he never 1:03:52.800 --> 1:03:56.160 gave me a compliment. You know, there were some and 1:03:56.200 --> 1:03:59.360 so we had to have a press conference and that 1:03:59.360 --> 1:04:02.240 that's really I felt that that that he kind of 1:04:02.240 --> 1:04:05.640 felt I handled that well enough. Yeah, some people believe 1:04:05.720 --> 1:04:08.640 that they stole the money themselves. Well, nobody knows. Let's 1:04:08.640 --> 1:04:10.560 put it this way, no one's ever was arrested for 1:04:10.600 --> 1:04:14.960 this crime. And uh, it's a little fishy. And then 1:04:15.000 --> 1:04:17.600 the question is who would they be. Would they be 1:04:17.680 --> 1:04:20.480 the entire band, would it just be Peter, would it 1:04:20.480 --> 1:04:23.480 be Peter and someone else? No one knows. What we 1:04:23.520 --> 1:04:25.640 know is no one was ever arrested for it. Well, 1:04:25.680 --> 1:04:27.960 I guess my father woke me up. Was during the summer. 1:04:28.000 --> 1:04:30.480 He couldn't believe the sum he read it in the papers, 1:04:30.480 --> 1:04:32.800 you know, this being led Zeppelin. They're staying at the 1:04:32.840 --> 1:04:35.160 Drake Hotel. And the famous thing was the band flew 1:04:35.200 --> 1:04:39.760 home almost immediately, as opposed to staying around and trying 1:04:39.760 --> 1:04:42.400 to help with the finding of this money. Well, I mean, 1:04:42.400 --> 1:04:44.120 how would a band there but I was to get 1:04:44.160 --> 1:04:47.040 on stage a masson Square Garden. You know they saw 1:04:47.120 --> 1:04:49.160 that three shows at the garden and to play a 1:04:49.200 --> 1:04:52.960 great concert. They are not detectives or you know, so 1:04:53.000 --> 1:04:57.560 of course the band flew home. Um there there Peter 1:04:59.160 --> 1:05:02.120 and the two. A manager of led Zeppe was named 1:05:02.160 --> 1:05:04.959 Richard Cole, who's to this day a pretty good friend 1:05:04.960 --> 1:05:07.480 of mine. The beautiful guy he was, he's he's a 1:05:07.480 --> 1:05:09.640 twelve step guy. He's a guy in those he's out 1:05:09.640 --> 1:05:11.240 of control. I remember when he used to be at 1:05:11.240 --> 1:05:14.120 the Rainbow every night. He was out of control, a pirate, 1:05:14.280 --> 1:05:17.240 scary guy. Peter's right hand guy, kind of the enforce 1:05:17.320 --> 1:05:22.240 your guy. And uh and the last thirty years he's like, uh, 1:05:22.680 --> 1:05:26.120 he got sober again. I'm not you know, this is 1:05:26.160 --> 1:05:27.960 he he would be the first to say this, and 1:05:27.960 --> 1:05:30.360 and he's what a beautiful guy. He lives, he's retired, 1:05:30.400 --> 1:05:32.840 he lives in in in England, I think London. I 1:05:32.880 --> 1:05:37.240 just mostly see we mostly communicate through Facebook. But you know, 1:05:37.320 --> 1:05:40.400 I don't think Richard knows and if anybody that IM 1:05:40.480 --> 1:05:45.919 and Peter's dead and um, I don't know, but it's 1:05:45.920 --> 1:05:49.720 something a little a little um. The weird thing is 1:05:49.840 --> 1:05:52.000 that the one was ever arrested for it, you know, 1:05:52.480 --> 1:05:55.840 and uh, and that only a couple of people had 1:05:55.880 --> 1:05:59.920 access to the to the safety deposit box, one of 1:06:00.000 --> 1:06:07.320 whom definitely was Peter. We're listening to my conversation with 1:06:07.400 --> 1:06:12.680 Danny Goldberg, recorded live at the tune In Studios in Venice, California. 1:06:13.960 --> 1:06:16.240 I hope you're enjoying this episode of the Bob Left 1:06:16.240 --> 1:06:19.320 Sets podcast. If you want to see videos, photos, and 1:06:19.360 --> 1:06:22.280 soundbites from Danny and our other guests as they joined 1:06:22.320 --> 1:06:26.160 me in the studio, visit at tune In on Twitter, Facebook, 1:06:26.160 --> 1:06:30.240 and Instagram. Now more of my conversation with Danny Goldberg 1:06:30.520 --> 1:06:34.800 on the Bob Left Sets Podcast. Okay, so you end 1:06:34.880 --> 1:06:38.320 up working with Led zeppelind until the band ends, right, No, No, 1:06:38.480 --> 1:06:42.120 I did not I work with them. Um. I started 1:06:42.120 --> 1:06:45.480 at Swansong in January of seventy four and I left 1:06:45.560 --> 1:06:48.480 in May of seventies six, and the band didn't end 1:06:48.560 --> 1:06:52.919 until seventy seven. Okay, so you left in seventy six 1:06:52.920 --> 1:06:57.400 to do what I started my own PR firm. You know, 1:06:57.560 --> 1:07:01.680 I had a falling out with Peter. We later made up. 1:07:01.720 --> 1:07:04.480 It's it's not that interesting a story. And but I 1:07:04.640 --> 1:07:06.400 by this time I had a reputation of I'd been 1:07:06.480 --> 1:07:10.720 Zeppelin's publicistem bad company, and I've been quoted in articles. 1:07:10.760 --> 1:07:13.040 So I started a PR company with the imaginative name 1:07:13.080 --> 1:07:15.840 of Danny Goldberg, Inc. And And the first client I 1:07:15.880 --> 1:07:18.720 got was Kiss, you know, who idolized Zeppelin and billow 1:07:18.760 --> 1:07:21.240 Cooin had been at somebody i'd met earlier. And I 1:07:21.320 --> 1:07:24.240 also very quickly got E l O, which Don Arden 1:07:24.360 --> 1:07:27.000 managed to Don Arden had been Peter Grant's former bloss 1:07:27.040 --> 1:07:30.880 and was also a legendary tough English guy. His daughter 1:07:32.520 --> 1:07:35.120 married Ozzy Osborne. We know here Sharon Osborne, and those 1:07:35.160 --> 1:07:38.560 days she was Sharon Arden, and very very good to me, 1:07:39.000 --> 1:07:41.720 you know, always made sure I get paid on time. Really, 1:07:42.360 --> 1:07:45.520 so you were at the advent of the success of 1:07:45.560 --> 1:07:48.160 those Well, Yolo had already had a hit seventy four 1:07:48.160 --> 1:07:51.680 in America. Elo, it had hits. They they had. I 1:07:51.720 --> 1:07:55.640 mean I think, um, they already had can't get out 1:07:55.680 --> 1:07:59.800 of my head. Um. The big record we had was 1:07:59.840 --> 1:08:02.800 I think it was called uh, God had living thing 1:08:02.920 --> 1:08:06.840 on it. I think it was called out of the Yeah. 1:08:06.920 --> 1:08:09.120 I think that was the big yellow record that I 1:08:09.240 --> 1:08:12.440 that I was Danny Goldberg in just you or did 1:08:12.480 --> 1:08:14.560 you have people working? Oh? No, I had people working 1:08:14.640 --> 1:08:19.120 for me. Um. I started. I started out of my apartment. 1:08:20.400 --> 1:08:22.559 By this time, I'd moved to West seven ninth three 1:08:22.600 --> 1:08:24.240 and I had a one bedroom and sort of for 1:08:24.280 --> 1:08:27.799 the first six months, the living room was our office, 1:08:27.880 --> 1:08:30.880 and actually Howard Bloom shared the office with me, and 1:08:30.920 --> 1:08:33.439 then he later off did his own PR firm. But 1:08:33.520 --> 1:08:36.280 originally we were thinking of doing it together. But but 1:08:36.560 --> 1:08:38.599 we're still friends. Howard and I just did a book 1:08:38.600 --> 1:08:44.200 event together like last year. But um we we um. 1:08:44.760 --> 1:08:46.800 So I had fives, I had, I had some people 1:08:46.880 --> 1:08:48.439 and then and then I made enough money that I 1:08:48.479 --> 1:08:53.040 could afford to rent offices somewhere in midtown. Uh and uh, 1:08:53.120 --> 1:08:56.760 you know, publicity is work intensive. It's it's a you 1:08:56.840 --> 1:09:00.400 need you need bodies making the phone calls to UH 1:09:00.560 --> 1:09:04.040 service the clients. Do you're making any money? I mean 1:09:04.040 --> 1:09:07.960 it was cash flow positive, you know. Um for most 1:09:08.000 --> 1:09:11.240 of it. Um, it was a struggle, but I got 1:09:11.360 --> 1:09:13.360 enough money where I ended up having also an l 1:09:13.400 --> 1:09:15.960 A office. I had an office in Century City, right 1:09:16.000 --> 1:09:18.559 down the hall from where E. L Os Jet Records was, 1:09:19.200 --> 1:09:21.680 And then I had an office in New York, but 1:09:21.840 --> 1:09:24.000 with two or three people in each in each office. 1:09:24.080 --> 1:09:27.120 And it was a cash business. I wasn't owning anything, 1:09:27.160 --> 1:09:29.160 and I wasn't building up any great savings, but I 1:09:29.200 --> 1:09:32.080 was making enough to pay for these rents and to 1:09:32.120 --> 1:09:35.960 pay salaries to these people. So then the next step 1:09:36.000 --> 1:09:40.280 is twentieth century Fox. No, you're so kind to have 1:09:40.360 --> 1:09:42.880 researched to all this, and and obviously you know, being 1:09:42.920 --> 1:09:45.400 around for so many years I have in the middle 1:09:45.439 --> 1:09:50.040 of I'm trying to remember when I did Fox. I um, Fox, 1:09:50.080 --> 1:09:53.720 I think was two. Yeah, that's later the big breakthrough 1:09:53.880 --> 1:09:57.880 coming out of So I have this PR company and 1:09:58.240 --> 1:10:01.080 within a year one of the most the important clients 1:10:01.120 --> 1:10:05.080 to me becomes Bearsville Records. And this is the second time, 1:10:05.120 --> 1:10:07.320 I encounter Albert gross soon, and this time I'm actually 1:10:07.360 --> 1:10:10.280 communicating with him on a regular basis because the guy 1:10:10.400 --> 1:10:13.080 that was president of his label was Paul Fishkin, and 1:10:13.120 --> 1:10:16.240 Paul and I just were best friends, you know, and 1:10:16.280 --> 1:10:18.280 Paul the minute I was doing this, looked for a 1:10:18.280 --> 1:10:20.559 way to get me the business and they had some 1:10:20.640 --> 1:10:23.080 budget for PR so I did Bears well. They had 1:10:23.120 --> 1:10:25.200 Todd run Gren. Their big act in those days was 1:10:25.240 --> 1:10:27.880 fog Hat That was their Planum act and they Jesse 1:10:28.000 --> 1:10:31.439 Winchester made a record while I was there, and Um 1:10:32.560 --> 1:10:38.120 and Paul Um at some point in seventy eight, I 1:10:38.120 --> 1:10:40.479 think it was seventy eight, maybe the beginning of seventy nine. 1:10:40.560 --> 1:10:42.920 Has a romance with Stevie Nicks, and this is at 1:10:42.960 --> 1:10:47.280 the peak of Rumors. They're the biggest group in the 1:10:47.320 --> 1:10:50.559 world and she's the lead singer and songwriter of their 1:10:50.560 --> 1:10:54.040 biggest hits, Rhiannon on the previous record and Dreams on 1:10:54.200 --> 1:10:59.600 Rumors and he introduced me to her, and uh, you know, 1:10:59.640 --> 1:11:05.080 would be quickly became clear to me that she was 1:11:05.280 --> 1:11:08.800 frustrated in terms of some of the business dynamics of 1:11:08.840 --> 1:11:13.080 Fleetwood Mac because she and Lindsey Buckingham had joined the 1:11:13.120 --> 1:11:14.920 group that had already been in existence for eight or 1:11:15.000 --> 1:11:19.599 nine years or least. So Fleetwood and Mac made all 1:11:19.600 --> 1:11:22.479 the decisions, including which songs went on the record. And 1:11:22.920 --> 1:11:24.960 she had written this song called Silver Springs that she 1:11:25.040 --> 1:11:26.920 loved that they didn't include on Rumors, and she had 1:11:26.920 --> 1:11:30.800 all these other songs, and I was extremely happy that 1:11:30.920 --> 1:11:33.759 she was so unhappy, because now I could be somebody 1:11:33.760 --> 1:11:36.360 who could maybe help, you know, And and Paul was 1:11:36.439 --> 1:11:39.000 promoting this, and so we got to know each other 1:11:39.120 --> 1:11:42.400 and had this idea for a Rhiannon movie. We made 1:11:42.400 --> 1:11:44.960 a development deal with the United Artists. Nothing ever came 1:11:45.000 --> 1:11:46.799 of it. But I got to be friends with Stevie 1:11:46.840 --> 1:11:52.000 and she's just another person who just believed in me 1:11:52.080 --> 1:11:54.800 when there was no particular reason for her to do so, 1:11:55.040 --> 1:12:00.000 based on my background. And and uh, somewhere along the line, 1:12:00.120 --> 1:12:01.800 Paul and I had this idea that we should start 1:12:01.800 --> 1:12:05.040 a label with Stevie for her solo work, because Warner 1:12:05.080 --> 1:12:08.320 Brothers had not signed her as an individual when she 1:12:08.439 --> 1:12:11.479 joined Fleetwood Mac. Fleetwood Mac had made album after album 1:12:11.479 --> 1:12:13.559 after album. They just seemed to change guitar players on 1:12:13.600 --> 1:12:16.519 every album, and they weren't that important an act to 1:12:16.600 --> 1:12:18.960 Warner Brothers for the first seven or eight albums, so 1:12:19.040 --> 1:12:22.120 there was no big push in business affairs to sign 1:12:22.240 --> 1:12:25.040 the new members of Fleetwood Mac. How hum, and then 1:12:25.080 --> 1:12:28.679 almost immediately they went from selling a hundred fifty albums 1:12:28.720 --> 1:12:31.120 to four million albums with this with the record called 1:12:31.120 --> 1:12:35.000 Fleetwood Mac that had Rhiannon on it, and they never 1:12:35.120 --> 1:12:38.200 signed Stevie, so she was available as a solo artist. 1:12:38.680 --> 1:12:41.559 So we created this label called Modern Records together Paul 1:12:41.600 --> 1:12:47.280 and I. Stevie had a piece of it, and and 1:12:47.320 --> 1:12:51.960 that the first record was Bella Donna, which Jimmy Ivan 1:12:52.040 --> 1:12:56.400 produced and which was number one. I think it's sold 1:12:56.400 --> 1:12:58.640 ten million by an now or something. So that was 1:12:59.280 --> 1:13:01.840 that was a big thing. And then after a few 1:13:01.920 --> 1:13:04.200 years I thow there were there any other records on 1:13:04.280 --> 1:13:07.840 Modern Records. Nothing successful. We put out a couple of 1:13:07.840 --> 1:13:10.000 other records. It was a friend of Paul's named Joey 1:13:10.000 --> 1:13:12.760 Wilson from Philly that we put out that flopped. And 1:13:12.800 --> 1:13:15.640 there was a reggae act called Jamala that I was 1:13:15.760 --> 1:13:19.639 enthusiastic about that also flopped. Those with the other artists 1:13:19.680 --> 1:13:23.760 on Modern Um it went through Atlantic. We made our 1:13:23.760 --> 1:13:26.479 deal with Doug Morris who was just started running at Go, 1:13:26.720 --> 1:13:28.680 which was a division of Atlantic, and it was a 1:13:28.680 --> 1:13:31.920 big deal for him and big deal for us. Uh. 1:13:31.960 --> 1:13:34.479 And there's a photo I have somewhere of me, Doug Stevie, 1:13:34.560 --> 1:13:38.280 Jimmy Ivan and Paul right after Belladonna became number one, 1:13:38.280 --> 1:13:42.360 and it was a moment for all of us, you know. Um. 1:13:42.560 --> 1:13:45.880 So then later on, after I sold my half of that, 1:13:46.040 --> 1:13:50.000 I started some other label UH with A and M 1:13:50.040 --> 1:13:53.200 that that was not particularly successful, called Gold Mountain, which 1:13:53.240 --> 1:13:55.519 I then later used as the name of management company. 1:13:56.000 --> 1:13:58.479 And during that period of A and M, I got 1:13:58.520 --> 1:14:01.559 this offer to be a soundtrack slim for twenty century Fox. 1:14:02.280 --> 1:14:05.400 So I spent the year it was right after Flash 1:14:05.479 --> 1:14:07.599 Dance and all the movie studios to oh, we need 1:14:07.640 --> 1:14:11.920 somebody who understands MTV and stuff to do soundtracks, you know, 1:14:11.960 --> 1:14:14.920 because that's a part of marketing films. So I had 1:14:14.960 --> 1:14:16.760 that sort of as a part time thing. I had 1:14:16.760 --> 1:14:20.080 an office at Fox and an office UH at A 1:14:20.160 --> 1:14:23.639 and M for um Gold Mountain, just just for a year. 1:14:23.680 --> 1:14:26.000 But my name is on some you know, there's there's 1:14:26.000 --> 1:14:28.320 some movies my name is on. And then for about 1:14:28.360 --> 1:14:30.080 a year after that, I did a few other movies. 1:14:30.120 --> 1:14:32.840 The most famous credit I have as music supervisor of 1:14:33.080 --> 1:14:37.760 Dirty Dancing. But you know it was, well, you know 1:14:38.160 --> 1:14:41.120 Jimmy Ivan takes Jimmy Iron or takes all the credit 1:14:41.200 --> 1:14:47.200 on that. Does he deserve it? He definitely deserves some 1:14:47.280 --> 1:14:50.320 of the credit. Um and and he and I have 1:14:50.479 --> 1:14:53.640 not don't have a different narrative about this. We've you know, 1:14:53.680 --> 1:14:59.040 this is come up? I was, can is this? Can 1:14:59.080 --> 1:15:04.280 one use four her words on this course? So the 1:15:04.320 --> 1:15:07.719 director of Dirty Dancing was named Emil Ordealino. He's passed 1:15:07.720 --> 1:15:11.000 away one of the loveliest people I've ever met and 1:15:11.000 --> 1:15:13.679 and couldn't have been easier to work with, and had 1:15:13.720 --> 1:15:16.800 almost no interest in the music. So in terms of 1:15:16.800 --> 1:15:19.600 picking all the oldies that are in the movie and 1:15:19.760 --> 1:15:21.840 Be My Baby and whatever is I I did that 1:15:21.920 --> 1:15:23.400 and it was the easiest thing in the world to do. 1:15:23.479 --> 1:15:25.680 You just pick all your favorite old songs that there 1:15:25.680 --> 1:15:27.640 hadn't been a zillion of these other movies. It was 1:15:27.680 --> 1:15:29.960 like low hanging fruit and it was not hard to 1:15:30.000 --> 1:15:32.640 license them. And then I and then they needed some 1:15:32.680 --> 1:15:36.799 original material, and I suggested and I brought in Michael Lloyd, 1:15:36.920 --> 1:15:39.160 who was a friend of mine. I don't know how 1:15:39.160 --> 1:15:40.679 we got to know each other. It's from a different 1:15:40.760 --> 1:15:42.760 kind of music. He produced like Debbie Boone, You Like 1:15:42.880 --> 1:15:45.280 My Life a pop guy, but I just liked them 1:15:45.280 --> 1:15:47.720 and I knew that needed a pop guy. But there 1:15:47.760 --> 1:15:50.040 was one of the producers of the film, and she 1:15:50.120 --> 1:15:52.120 may still be alive. I don't want to embarrass anybody, 1:15:52.120 --> 1:15:55.360 but she very um. They was so frustrated that we 1:15:55.360 --> 1:15:58.759 didn't have a record deal yet, because you have to remember, 1:15:58.840 --> 1:16:01.120 nobody knew Dirty Dance Thing was going to be a hit. 1:16:01.280 --> 1:16:04.360 It was an unknown director with an unknown cast, with 1:16:04.439 --> 1:16:08.360 a tiny little studio called Vesturan that was known as 1:16:08.360 --> 1:16:10.639 a home video company that had made some money selling 1:16:10.720 --> 1:16:13.200 Jane Fonda videos. So they decided to make a movie. 1:16:13.760 --> 1:16:16.200 It was the least likely film based on the people 1:16:16.240 --> 1:16:21.320 involved in UM, I forget who was The guy who 1:16:21.320 --> 1:16:23.320 brought me on was named Steve Ruther. I don't know 1:16:23.360 --> 1:16:26.559 what became of him. So one of the producers was 1:16:27.040 --> 1:16:31.840 very combative and pushy, and she called my assistant at 1:16:31.840 --> 1:16:37.720 the time, Lorie Levy, a count and uh so I 1:16:37.840 --> 1:16:40.920 just uh said, I can't deal with this. I had 1:16:40.920 --> 1:16:43.320 already gotten so I made a deal. It was the 1:16:43.360 --> 1:16:47.320 worst business decision in my life. I had gotten fifty fee, 1:16:47.360 --> 1:16:49.720 which was a lot of money to be a music supervisor, 1:16:49.760 --> 1:16:52.639 and I had a couple of points on a record, 1:16:52.680 --> 1:16:56.559 but there was no record deal. So I just made 1:16:56.560 --> 1:16:58.760 a deal with Steve Ruther. I said, look, I want 1:16:58.760 --> 1:17:01.360 to keep the credit. I think there was an extra 1:17:01.520 --> 1:17:03.519 ten or fifteen thousand. You know, the fee was paid 1:17:03.520 --> 1:17:06.160 in installments, compaying me the rest of my fee. I 1:17:06.200 --> 1:17:09.000 don't need a royalty. I just need never to talk 1:17:09.000 --> 1:17:12.480 to this woman again, who who? Because you know, insulted 1:17:12.560 --> 1:17:15.800 my assistant. And and then they brought in Jimmy Einer, 1:17:15.840 --> 1:17:18.160 who did oversee the recording of the Hits. There's no 1:17:18.240 --> 1:17:21.040 question about it. Michael Lloyd produced the Hits. I was 1:17:21.200 --> 1:17:23.840 so the producer I've writ but Jimmy Einer in terms 1:17:23.880 --> 1:17:26.280 of the songwriting and A and R in it, He 1:17:26.439 --> 1:17:28.639 and R had they hit singles that made that that 1:17:28.720 --> 1:17:32.360 record what it was as a phenomenon. So he but 1:17:32.360 --> 1:17:34.680 but in terms of the music that you hear when 1:17:34.720 --> 1:17:37.880 you're watching the movie, that's why they kept my credit 1:17:37.920 --> 1:17:40.720 because so so we played different roles in it, and 1:17:40.840 --> 1:17:42.719 he made a lot more money from it than I didn't. 1:17:42.720 --> 1:17:45.240 He deserve to because he he oversaw the production of 1:17:45.240 --> 1:17:47.400 the hit center of the hit songs, and then you 1:17:47.439 --> 1:17:50.080 decided to become a manager. I always wanted to be 1:17:50.120 --> 1:17:52.400 a manager from the time I worked for Peter Grant. 1:17:53.080 --> 1:17:55.519 I just thought that was the job for me. It 1:17:55.640 --> 1:17:58.720 was he was so powerful the record company did what 1:17:58.800 --> 1:18:01.120 he said. He was the close this person to the band. 1:18:01.520 --> 1:18:03.639 He made a percentage, so he was making what seemed 1:18:03.640 --> 1:18:06.160 to me like so much more money than than than 1:18:06.280 --> 1:18:08.960 anything that was accessible to me. So I had wanted 1:18:08.960 --> 1:18:11.040 to be a manager ever since leaving Zeppelin, but it 1:18:11.080 --> 1:18:12.840 was hard for me to convince people to let me 1:18:12.880 --> 1:18:15.439 be a manager. I had this one band called the 1:18:15.560 --> 1:18:17.880 Mink Deville that I was very proud to work with, 1:18:17.920 --> 1:18:21.080 a great band, but Willie became a junkie. You were 1:18:21.080 --> 1:18:24.559 the manager for their first record, first two records, which 1:18:24.560 --> 1:18:26.639 were the best record, Yeah, which is the first two records. 1:18:27.160 --> 1:18:29.880 H Van Edmonds was a former rock writer who's a 1:18:29.920 --> 1:18:33.240 and R guide Capital would signed them and he suggested 1:18:33.280 --> 1:18:34.880 I do it, and and it was it was an 1:18:34.920 --> 1:18:36.920 interesting you know, they were great, I mean they were 1:18:36.960 --> 1:18:39.320 incredible live act. Willie Deville is one of the most 1:18:39.360 --> 1:18:42.920 compelling live performers but you know, a little self destructive, 1:18:42.960 --> 1:18:45.519 so we couldn't really break them, even though again those 1:18:45.520 --> 1:18:47.719 records hold up. And there's a song on the first 1:18:47.720 --> 1:18:49.960 Mink Deville record called Mixed Up Shook Up Girl that 1:18:50.960 --> 1:18:53.360 someday someone's gonna have a hit with. It's such a 1:18:53.360 --> 1:18:56.679 great song. And uh, Willie wrote that song. He didn't 1:18:56.680 --> 1:18:59.600 write Cadillac Walk. Moon Martin wrote Cadillac Walk, which was 1:18:59.640 --> 1:19:03.120 the A O. R track, but Willie wrote Mixed Up 1:19:03.120 --> 1:19:06.280 Shook Up Girl. But you know, that flopped, and I 1:19:06.320 --> 1:19:08.400 couldn't get anyone to the WOMY as a manager, so 1:19:08.439 --> 1:19:11.760 I started, you know, I tried different things, and then 1:19:11.800 --> 1:19:16.160 finally after the Stevie Nicks success in the association with that, 1:19:17.120 --> 1:19:22.240 I somehow had enough whatever it is, to convince people 1:19:22.280 --> 1:19:24.360 to let me be a manager. And the first client 1:19:24.439 --> 1:19:29.599 I had after Gold Mountain Label didn't work, I turned 1:19:29.640 --> 1:19:31.600 it into Gold Mountain Management. And the first client of 1:19:31.640 --> 1:19:34.639 Gold Mountain Management was Belinda Carlisle, right after she left 1:19:34.640 --> 1:19:38.240 the Go Goes. I think her lawyer suggested it might 1:19:38.280 --> 1:19:42.479 have been Michael Lloyd um or maybe that's how I 1:19:42.520 --> 1:19:46.040 met Michael Lloyd. Yeah, because that was before I don't 1:19:46.040 --> 1:19:50.320 know John Mason was her lawyer. Um, she wasn't you know. 1:19:51.080 --> 1:19:54.280 It wasn't like a huge competition at that time to 1:19:54.320 --> 1:19:56.840 get Bull into Carlisle. But I was excited to get 1:19:56.840 --> 1:20:00.160 Bull into Carlisle. And because you know I I was 1:20:00.200 --> 1:20:04.720 a Go Goes fan and she was the singer and 1:20:04.720 --> 1:20:07.680 and uh, and I heard this song Man about You, 1:20:07.720 --> 1:20:09.920 which just I wasn't sure it was a hit. I'm 1:20:09.960 --> 1:20:11.680 not one of those guys that can always predict to him. 1:20:11.680 --> 1:20:13.960 But it sounded to me like a lot like a 1:20:14.040 --> 1:20:16.840 great Go Go song, you know it's like So she 1:20:17.000 --> 1:20:20.560 was the first client in Bonnie Rate was the second client. 1:20:20.600 --> 1:20:27.360 Bonny I had met um some years in the late seventies. Um, 1:20:27.479 --> 1:20:32.160 when I had the PR company, one of my clients 1:20:32.560 --> 1:20:37.880 was a band called Orleans. And then Orleans broke up 1:20:37.920 --> 1:20:42.840 and John Hole, who was the lead guitar player, Um 1:20:42.880 --> 1:20:46.000 it was a social friend of mine and he made 1:20:46.000 --> 1:20:49.640 a solo deal with Electra and so he hired me 1:20:49.680 --> 1:20:51.960 to be the publicist on his solo records. So his 1:20:52.000 --> 1:20:54.400 solo record flopped. But in the middle of this was 1:20:54.439 --> 1:20:57.280 seventy eight. He said, look, I want you to help 1:20:57.280 --> 1:20:59.800 me publicize this other thing I'm doing and he ex 1:21:00.040 --> 1:21:02.759 Ai'm to me why he was against the nuclear power 1:21:02.800 --> 1:21:07.920 plants because of the environmental hazard. The radiation could cause 1:21:08.000 --> 1:21:10.519 cancer and there could be a meltdown. And this was 1:21:10.560 --> 1:21:14.479 the same period of time Karen Silkwood had had the 1:21:14.520 --> 1:21:18.800 subject of a huge Rolling Stone article. She had uncovered 1:21:18.880 --> 1:21:21.000 some problems in the nuclear power plant, and then she 1:21:21.080 --> 1:21:26.839 mysteriously died. And so we did a press conference whereas 1:21:26.960 --> 1:21:30.880 artists United against Nuclear Energy or something, and the press 1:21:30.920 --> 1:21:35.160 conference with James Taylor, Carly Simon, Bonnie Rate and John Hall. 1:21:36.240 --> 1:21:41.360 And then not long thereafter, there was an accident at 1:21:41.360 --> 1:21:44.400 the nuclear power plant at Three Mile Island in Pennsylvania, 1:21:44.479 --> 1:21:47.639 and it became front page news. This Jimmy Carter was president. 1:21:47.680 --> 1:21:50.800 This was before the hostages were taken in Iran, which 1:21:51.000 --> 1:21:54.240 wiped everything off the front pages. During this window of time, 1:21:54.560 --> 1:21:58.360 nuclear power was like a big issue. And and so 1:21:58.720 --> 1:22:00.680 John Hall then calls me and he says, look, we're 1:22:00.640 --> 1:22:03.200 gonna now it's this big issue. We're going to these concerts. 1:22:03.920 --> 1:22:07.280 And they did concerts at Madison Square Garden and Jackson 1:22:07.320 --> 1:22:09.640 Brown joined the Fray and this is where I met 1:22:09.760 --> 1:22:12.479 Jackson And then for the last two nights of those 1:22:12.520 --> 1:22:15.120 concerts Springsteen headlines. So there were five nights at the 1:22:15.120 --> 1:22:18.160 Garden and out of it. Uh And I had this 1:22:18.240 --> 1:22:21.880 notion that we should make a movie UH that was 1:22:21.920 --> 1:22:25.080 released by Warner Brothers called No Nukes that I end 1:22:25.240 --> 1:22:29.240 myself and a friend of mine ended up directing and producing. UH. 1:22:29.280 --> 1:22:32.240 So through that experience, I got to know Bonnie and 1:22:32.280 --> 1:22:34.720 I loved Bonnie Rate. And then it occurred, and then 1:22:34.760 --> 1:22:37.439 by this time, I just she was kind of going 1:22:37.439 --> 1:22:40.720 through a down period in her career. Warner Brothers was 1:22:40.760 --> 1:22:43.760 about to drop her, and she had been around, you know, 1:22:43.800 --> 1:22:46.120 she was close to forty, and it was considered somebody 1:22:46.120 --> 1:22:48.479 that just had her shot and didn't make it, whereas 1:22:48.520 --> 1:22:51.280 Linda Ronstad doing some of the same kind of thing, 1:22:51.360 --> 1:22:54.360 had become the big star. And I just couldn't believe 1:22:54.400 --> 1:22:57.240 that Bonnie Rate couldn't do. I didn't know she was 1:22:57.280 --> 1:22:58.960 going to be as successful as she became, but I 1:22:59.479 --> 1:23:03.880 knew she was great, and so UM I I called her, 1:23:03.880 --> 1:23:06.240 and she had had the same manager for her whole career, 1:23:06.280 --> 1:23:10.360 and I felt it was time. She was at a 1:23:11.040 --> 1:23:13.600 was Dick Waterman and and and it was at a 1:23:13.640 --> 1:23:19.840 dead end, and she came with me and I I 1:23:19.880 --> 1:23:21.800 think I called her. I think I said, yeah, I 1:23:22.040 --> 1:23:24.479 think I called her and pitched her. You know, but 1:23:24.560 --> 1:23:26.519 we had We've gotten to know each other pretty well 1:23:26.560 --> 1:23:29.559 through the Nonwkes experience, and I and I knew she 1:23:29.680 --> 1:23:32.800 was struggling, you know, and I said, I can help, 1:23:32.880 --> 1:23:34.680 you know, and and and I brought in a guy 1:23:34.720 --> 1:23:38.280 named Ron Stone, who became part of Gold Mountain and 1:23:38.400 --> 1:23:42.000 so appropriately on all of those records, it says management 1:23:42.040 --> 1:23:45.720 Danny Goldberg and Ron Stone, and we um, you know, 1:23:45.840 --> 1:23:48.759 she got sober just at that time, and she wrote 1:23:48.760 --> 1:23:50.960 that song Nick of Time, and I remember the cassette 1:23:50.960 --> 1:23:54.760 of it in my car, the demo of it, and uh, 1:23:55.120 --> 1:23:57.439 you know, talking about watching her parents age, and I 1:23:57.560 --> 1:24:00.439 just tear it up, and you know, knew it was 1:24:00.479 --> 1:24:03.680 great again. We got very lucky with the planets lined up. 1:24:03.760 --> 1:24:05.760 V H one was just starting and suddenly there was 1:24:05.760 --> 1:24:09.360 an exposure vehicle for somebody like Bonnie Raid and capital 1:24:09.439 --> 1:24:11.559 was cold, so they paid more attention to her than 1:24:11.600 --> 1:24:15.320 they otherwise would have, and uh, fourteen labels turned her down. 1:24:15.320 --> 1:24:17.720 I went to everybody, Jerry Moss, Doug Morris, all the 1:24:17.720 --> 1:24:19.559 people I knew in the business that she's too old. 1:24:19.960 --> 1:24:22.320 And then Joe Smith, who had a sentimental attachment to 1:24:22.360 --> 1:24:24.920 her from having worked with her Warner brothers and having 1:24:25.360 --> 1:24:28.160 nothing else at Capital, gave us what was a low 1:24:28.200 --> 1:24:30.280 ball deal, but it was fine out of that cam 1:24:30.320 --> 1:24:33.519 nick of time and that one the Grammy, and then 1:24:33.560 --> 1:24:36.439 I was suddenly a successful manager. And then who were 1:24:36.439 --> 1:24:41.720 the acts to follow? Uh? Well, the biggest one was Nirvana? Right? 1:24:41.760 --> 1:24:45.200 But before Nirvana? Who else did we have? Oh? Goodness? 1:24:45.240 --> 1:24:49.280 I mean I I had a gold Mountain, became a 1:24:49.400 --> 1:24:51.280 certainly a bigger company than the one I have now. 1:24:51.280 --> 1:24:52.880 I think we had like thirty five people there. We 1:24:52.920 --> 1:24:55.040 had a number of different artists. We had Bela Fleck, 1:24:55.200 --> 1:24:58.240 we had Sheena Easton, I had I brought in a 1:24:58.280 --> 1:25:00.320 lot of co managers, So I was com aage with 1:25:00.320 --> 1:25:02.560 a lot of different people to create kind of a 1:25:02.560 --> 1:25:06.320 home for for different managers. We had some rock bands 1:25:06.360 --> 1:25:09.519 that didn't make it that they got played on pirate radio, 1:25:10.400 --> 1:25:13.120 you know, a bang tango. And the whole thing was 1:25:13.600 --> 1:25:15.679 if you could get the record deal and a publishing deal, 1:25:15.680 --> 1:25:17.479 you get a commission on the record advance, you get 1:25:17.479 --> 1:25:20.120 a commission on the publishing advance, and then you've made 1:25:20.160 --> 1:25:22.320 your forty or fifty grand as a manager and then 1:25:22.320 --> 1:25:24.000 you hope it's successful. So I had a lot of 1:25:24.240 --> 1:25:27.200 several of those that didn't make it. Had Andy Taylor 1:25:27.439 --> 1:25:31.000 from Duran Duran solo deal, Steve Jones from the Sex 1:25:31.040 --> 1:25:34.920 Pistols solo deal, my old friend Michael Dabar, you know, 1:25:34.960 --> 1:25:37.439 I worked with on various records, still still one of 1:25:37.479 --> 1:25:41.320 my best friends. Um. But in terms of successful artists 1:25:41.920 --> 1:25:45.880 other than Bonnie and Belinda Uh, the Almond brothers were 1:25:46.000 --> 1:25:48.280 client for several years. Then I was able to help 1:25:48.320 --> 1:25:50.000 them get back together again, and that was really one 1:25:50.040 --> 1:25:53.880 of the great things of my career was to be 1:25:53.880 --> 1:25:56.160 able to work with them for a few years. And 1:25:56.200 --> 1:26:00.400 then I had this realization that there was this younger 1:26:00.520 --> 1:26:02.920 thing happening with punk rock, and then I didn't really 1:26:03.000 --> 1:26:07.600 understand it. So I hired m John Silva, who was 1:26:08.960 --> 1:26:11.160 you know, so I don't remember how I met Silva, 1:26:11.240 --> 1:26:14.880 but he Um, I just knew I needed someone in 1:26:14.880 --> 1:26:17.160 that category. And he had a House of Freaks and 1:26:17.880 --> 1:26:21.639 Red Cross and House the Freaks had acoustic acoustic guitars, 1:26:21.680 --> 1:26:24.040 and I always liked folk music and I was so 1:26:24.240 --> 1:26:27.240 not connected to the eighties punk world. But I figure 1:26:27.240 --> 1:26:29.600 I could kind of get what this was, and he 1:26:29.680 --> 1:26:32.200 had this great work ethic and he came, you know, 1:26:32.240 --> 1:26:34.040 and we decided we got to go and try to 1:26:34.080 --> 1:26:37.200 sign some people and the big Within about six months 1:26:37.200 --> 1:26:40.640 we signed Sonic Youth, which was a big deal in 1:26:40.680 --> 1:26:43.920 the punk subculture for good reason. They're great band and 1:26:44.000 --> 1:26:48.240 great tastemakers. And then through Sonic Youth met Nirvana, and 1:26:48.280 --> 1:26:50.000 did you know Tirvana was going to blow up to 1:26:50.040 --> 1:26:54.559 the degree it did? No, No, nobody knew. I knew 1:26:55.439 --> 1:26:59.840 that I trusted Thurston More and Kim Gordon of Sonic 1:26:59.880 --> 1:27:03.080 you that that they were they they they had the 1:27:03.160 --> 1:27:06.160 jeweler's eye for talent and that idiom so many of 1:27:06.200 --> 1:27:09.679 the artists that were developing reputations had started as opening 1:27:09.680 --> 1:27:12.080 access on a Youth based on them just hearing some 1:27:12.240 --> 1:27:16.559 seven inch So I signed them totally based on the 1:27:16.560 --> 1:27:20.880 fact that Sonic Youth like them, and uh, you know, 1:27:20.960 --> 1:27:23.920 we signed them to Geffen, the imprint of Geffen called 1:27:23.960 --> 1:27:27.040 d g C that had Sonic Youth already. Gary Gersh 1:27:27.160 --> 1:27:29.840 was the and R a guy for both. And then 1:27:29.920 --> 1:27:32.160 I didn't really know until I saw the band live 1:27:32.320 --> 1:27:34.400 that that they were going to be important to me. 1:27:34.560 --> 1:27:36.640 They had already. We've been managing them for months and 1:27:36.640 --> 1:27:39.439 I've never seen them, which was a common thing for 1:27:39.479 --> 1:27:41.280 me in those days. You know, it was a bigger company. 1:27:41.280 --> 1:27:43.400 And I saw them at the palace they opened for 1:27:43.439 --> 1:27:49.240 Dinosaur Jr. And I was blown away. You know, bye 1:27:49.360 --> 1:27:51.559 bye what this before never Mind came out, But they 1:27:51.600 --> 1:27:56.719 already were working on never Mind, and Uh, seeing this 1:27:56.840 --> 1:27:59.679 way he connected with an audience is when I realized, 1:27:59.680 --> 1:28:01.719 oh my god, this is like a much bigger deal 1:28:01.800 --> 1:28:04.000 than I thought it was. And I went from being 1:28:04.040 --> 1:28:07.320 kind of a tertiary priority for me within the company 1:28:07.360 --> 1:28:09.479 to like one of the main things I was thinking about. 1:28:09.560 --> 1:28:12.160 You know. So by the time the record came out, 1:28:12.280 --> 1:28:16.320 I was like totally focused on it. But when we 1:28:16.360 --> 1:28:18.360 first signed them, they were just one of a zillion 1:28:18.360 --> 1:28:24.160 things that we were working on. We'll pause here for 1:28:24.200 --> 1:28:26.840 a weeve moment and get right back to my conversation 1:28:26.880 --> 1:28:32.880 with Danny Goldberg. For those not in the know, I'm 1:28:32.920 --> 1:28:35.760 primarily a writer. You can go to left sets dot 1:28:35.800 --> 1:28:38.720 com and sign up for the newsletter or read the 1:28:38.880 --> 1:28:42.440 archive for past history. In addition to following my commentary 1:28:42.439 --> 1:28:45.000 on music business in the world at large, will be 1:28:45.000 --> 1:28:47.200 the first to find out, we published a new episode 1:28:47.200 --> 1:28:50.240 of the podcast. Go to left sets dot com and 1:28:50.280 --> 1:28:54.000 sign up for the newsletter. I know you'll like it. Now, 1:28:54.240 --> 1:28:57.400 let's return to my conversation with Danny Goldberg, recorded at 1:28:57.400 --> 1:29:02.519 the tune In Studios in Venice, California. Looking back at 1:29:02.560 --> 1:29:05.880 this point in time, Kurt Cobain ultimately commits suicide. Is 1:29:05.960 --> 1:29:08.360 there anything that you were the team could have done 1:29:08.400 --> 1:29:15.120 differently that might have prevented that? Well, Um, obviously the 1:29:15.200 --> 1:29:19.880 only honest answer is I don't know. Um. It's I've 1:29:19.960 --> 1:29:23.200 just finishing a book about him that's going to come 1:29:23.200 --> 1:29:25.720 out in the spring, and I've been thinking about this 1:29:25.800 --> 1:29:28.920 a lot, and uh, I just don't know what to 1:29:28.960 --> 1:29:32.360 say about that. I mean, um, we did a couple 1:29:32.400 --> 1:29:34.040 of it. I was part of personally, part of a 1:29:34.040 --> 1:29:37.800 couple of interventions to get him off of heroin. You know, 1:29:38.000 --> 1:29:41.160 I certainly feel, um, it's better for people not to 1:29:41.160 --> 1:29:44.320 be junkies, and that that's a if there's one lesson 1:29:44.360 --> 1:29:46.879 that I already felt it was bad to be a junkie, 1:29:46.880 --> 1:29:51.200 and I still do. Um. I uh, you know, um, 1:29:51.840 --> 1:29:54.800 thousands and thousands of people kill themselves every year, and 1:29:55.640 --> 1:29:58.400 as far as I've been able to find out there's 1:29:58.439 --> 1:30:03.680 no therapists or priests or yogis who the philosophers who 1:30:03.760 --> 1:30:08.479 know how to prevent it. Um. You know, you do 1:30:08.520 --> 1:30:12.120 everything you can and pray, and some people just kill themselves. 1:30:12.160 --> 1:30:14.160 You know. It's It's one of the mysteries of of life, 1:30:14.200 --> 1:30:18.280 I think. I mean, it's just I think fifty Americans 1:30:18.280 --> 1:30:23.320 a year killed themselves. So, uh, you don't think that 1:30:23.400 --> 1:30:25.960 maybe he should have been pulled off the road earlier. 1:30:26.200 --> 1:30:28.719 He was not on the road much. Nirvana did very 1:30:28.720 --> 1:30:34.000 little touring, um the last the last year. Um. You know, 1:30:34.520 --> 1:30:38.360 he certainly didn't kill himself on the road. Um. And 1:30:38.360 --> 1:30:41.760 and he had complete control over every decision. I mean 1:30:41.800 --> 1:30:45.519 he you know, he didn't spend a lot of money, 1:30:45.600 --> 1:30:49.800 so Kurt was financially independent right away. Um. And they 1:30:49.800 --> 1:30:55.000 didn't do much touring. They did I think shows, you know, 1:30:55.040 --> 1:30:58.680 the the you know, the last the last year. And 1:30:58.800 --> 1:31:02.320 was Courtney loved an influence in his decision? Do you think? 1:31:04.200 --> 1:31:06.080 You know, Cortney is a friend of mine and someone 1:31:06.160 --> 1:31:09.640 that I also worked with and who I really admire, 1:31:10.800 --> 1:31:15.000 complicated person like anybody else. When you know, again, I 1:31:15.080 --> 1:31:17.120 think some of these hard drugs are just really bad 1:31:17.160 --> 1:31:19.320 for human beings, and they had a bad effect on 1:31:19.439 --> 1:31:21.559 each of them when they did them, and on almost 1:31:21.600 --> 1:31:25.960 most people who do them. But um, you know, I 1:31:26.000 --> 1:31:29.200 think the main thing is, uh, some people are prone 1:31:29.240 --> 1:31:31.679 to depression. Some people can deal with it, some can't. 1:31:31.800 --> 1:31:35.720 Some some people go into twelve step programs and you know, 1:31:36.680 --> 1:31:40.839 have some don't take to it, you know. Uh. John Coltrane, 1:31:40.920 --> 1:31:44.519 I think just stopped doing heroin through willpower, you know, 1:31:44.600 --> 1:31:48.840 and became a I've never quite understood. He was certainly 1:31:48.880 --> 1:31:56.280 into various Eastern religions, you know. Um, But you know, 1:31:56.439 --> 1:31:59.360 I just don't think anybody knows why people kill themselves. 1:31:59.400 --> 1:32:02.840 You know, I think that we know what some of 1:32:02.840 --> 1:32:04.880 the things increased the likelihood. But there were people who 1:32:04.880 --> 1:32:07.280 were junkies don't kill themselves, or people who were depressive, 1:32:07.360 --> 1:32:09.400 they don't kill themselves. There are people who have relatives 1:32:09.400 --> 1:32:14.000 in their family who who committed suicide who don't kill themselves. 1:32:14.040 --> 1:32:16.160 But you know, all those things increased the likelihood of it. 1:32:16.840 --> 1:32:20.680 So how did you find out? Uh? Rosemary Carroll, who 1:32:20.760 --> 1:32:26.519 was my my wife at the time and mother of 1:32:26.560 --> 1:32:32.200 my children, you know, was was also the lawyer for um. 1:32:32.320 --> 1:32:35.400 She's a music business lawyer. And she was the lawyer 1:32:35.479 --> 1:32:40.680 for by that time, both Kurt and Courtney. And she 1:32:40.800 --> 1:32:43.760 called me. I was Atlantic Records by this time. You know, 1:32:43.840 --> 1:32:48.439 I left the management company to go work for Atlantic. Um. 1:32:48.479 --> 1:32:50.599 You know, within a year after never Mind came out. 1:32:51.120 --> 1:32:54.080 You know, I had a sense of foreboding and I 1:32:54.120 --> 1:32:57.560 was I wanted a regular job. I just didn't want it, 1:32:57.560 --> 1:32:59.439 and that once I had kids, I just didn't want 1:32:59.439 --> 1:33:01.280 to run a small business anymore. I like the idea 1:33:01.280 --> 1:33:05.160 of getting a salary. So I was still involved with Nirvana, 1:33:05.160 --> 1:33:07.479 and particularly involved with Kurt as somebody that he liked 1:33:07.520 --> 1:33:09.640 to talk to. But but you know, I had this 1:33:09.720 --> 1:33:14.280 other job, as you know, you know Atlantic, and and 1:33:14.360 --> 1:33:16.080 so I was in New York at that time. You know, 1:33:16.080 --> 1:33:17.680 Atlantic was in New York. We were still living in 1:33:17.800 --> 1:33:21.479 l A. She was he had just given birth to 1:33:21.520 --> 1:33:26.960 our second kid, Max. You know, Max was I think, uh, 1:33:27.080 --> 1:33:30.800 four or five months old when Kurt killed himself. And Um, 1:33:30.840 --> 1:33:34.280 she called me and told me. So she was on 1:33:34.320 --> 1:33:36.560 her way to see Corny to tell Corney. This is 1:33:36.600 --> 1:33:39.080 a bad segue, but we have to move on on 1:33:39.160 --> 1:33:42.240 the less Um. So you take the job in Atlantic, 1:33:42.680 --> 1:33:46.759 and simultaneous or shortly thereafter, there's a huge power struggle 1:33:47.200 --> 1:33:51.720 at Warner Music. And what did that look like from 1:33:51.760 --> 1:33:55.559 the inside, Well, it unfolded over a period of I 1:33:55.600 --> 1:33:57.640 think the total amount of time I was there was 1:33:57.760 --> 1:34:02.040 three years, so it you know, in retrospect, it was 1:34:02.080 --> 1:34:04.240 a short period of time. But in those days, I'm 1:34:04.280 --> 1:34:06.080 just living my life and I had no idea that 1:34:06.160 --> 1:34:09.160 around the corner was going to come this, this power struggle. 1:34:09.200 --> 1:34:12.240 I did feel. Doug Mars hired me originally to be 1:34:12.360 --> 1:34:14.120 kind of the West coast head of A and R 1:34:14.200 --> 1:34:17.280 for Atlantic. I had the Nirvana's manager. That kind of 1:34:17.360 --> 1:34:23.040 music was clearly overnight change. What was commercial rock and roll, 1:34:23.080 --> 1:34:25.800 The so called hair bands were passe A. There was 1:34:25.840 --> 1:34:27.880 a need for someone who could find these new these 1:34:27.920 --> 1:34:30.960 new acts and uh. In that context, I was one 1:34:31.000 --> 1:34:33.200 of the people at Science Stone Temple Pilots, which was 1:34:33.280 --> 1:34:36.840 almost an immediate huge success and and and kind of 1:34:36.880 --> 1:34:40.280 made me a success in Atlantic right away. Uh, and 1:34:40.400 --> 1:34:42.120 that or so Reaginally I was on the West coast, 1:34:42.160 --> 1:34:45.120 but I Doug, I knew, had aspirations to move up 1:34:45.160 --> 1:34:46.920 in the hierarchy, and I thought that if I did 1:34:46.920 --> 1:34:49.040 a good job, I'd had a chance of them becoming 1:34:49.040 --> 1:34:52.160 presid of Atlantic, and that is what happened. He became 1:34:52.240 --> 1:34:57.640 head of Warner Music for America UH and made me 1:34:57.800 --> 1:35:04.120 president of Atlantic UH and then um, by this about 1:35:04.200 --> 1:35:10.280 two years into my Atlantic period, there was this huge 1:35:10.360 --> 1:35:14.679 convulsion there. Um. They were a corporate guy named Bob 1:35:14.760 --> 1:35:22.839 murgato um who oversaw all the music companies, and um, 1:35:22.960 --> 1:35:27.240 the CEO of Time Warner the entire corporation was named 1:35:27.240 --> 1:35:30.680 Steve Ross, legendary brilliant business guy who had assembled this 1:35:31.560 --> 1:35:35.080 jewel of a media company included Warner Brothers, films, Time Magazine, 1:35:35.200 --> 1:35:38.880 with Time Warner Cable. I think they had Nintendo and 1:35:39.760 --> 1:35:41.559 one or books, and you know, it was like one 1:35:41.600 --> 1:35:43.680 of the big big media companies. He was like on 1:35:43.720 --> 1:35:45.679 that list with like the way you would talk today 1:35:45.680 --> 1:35:48.040 about a Ruper Murdoch or one of those guys. And 1:35:48.120 --> 1:35:51.599 he died in his sixties. Like I don't think people 1:35:51.680 --> 1:35:54.280 knew he was going to die. He had cancer and 1:35:54.320 --> 1:35:56.519 he went from being running the company to being dead 1:35:56.680 --> 1:36:01.360 very quickly. And the vacuum created his death changed the 1:36:01.400 --> 1:36:07.479 power dynamic in the music group because Steve Ross, for example, 1:36:07.520 --> 1:36:10.519 had always said that Mouston reported to him directly, not 1:36:10.600 --> 1:36:13.719 to the head of overall Music and the new guy 1:36:13.800 --> 1:36:16.680 who replaced the Ross was Jerry Levin. Didn't want that 1:36:16.760 --> 1:36:21.519 kind of weird structure, so Margato hated my Austin and 1:36:21.560 --> 1:36:25.439 he liked Doug, and Mom ended up getting fired. I 1:36:25.600 --> 1:36:29.680 ended up for eight or nine months becoming chairman of 1:36:29.680 --> 1:36:33.280 Warner Brothers, and then Doug got fired. It was a 1:36:33.320 --> 1:36:38.040 convulsive time. Uh. You know, the Warner Music group, it was. 1:36:38.280 --> 1:36:39.720 It was a weird thing to be part of. It 1:36:39.760 --> 1:36:42.439 was an amazing experience. I'm gratefully I got paid well 1:36:42.479 --> 1:36:44.640 for it, and I learned a lot from it. But 1:36:44.720 --> 1:36:46.600 I was totally ill equipped to deal with it. I 1:36:46.880 --> 1:36:49.040 had moved so quickly in the corporate world. I I 1:36:49.320 --> 1:36:51.240 didn't I wasn't a corporate guy. I had been an 1:36:51.280 --> 1:36:55.640 independent manager publicist guy for twenty some years and I 1:36:55.640 --> 1:36:57.240 was only in the corporate world for like a couple 1:36:57.240 --> 1:36:59.400 of years and something. I have the biggest corporate record 1:36:59.479 --> 1:37:04.160 job at a time when my boss is embattled, and uh, 1:37:04.320 --> 1:37:07.679 I was not equipped to really deal with the pressures 1:37:07.680 --> 1:37:10.360 in a very intelligent way. But I did the best 1:37:10.360 --> 1:37:13.360 I could, and you know, I'm glad I got to 1:37:13.360 --> 1:37:15.800 do it. And so when you let get let go. 1:37:15.960 --> 1:37:21.439 Do you see that coming? Well, um, there was a 1:37:21.479 --> 1:37:29.719 series of things that happened that that seemed incredibly important 1:37:29.720 --> 1:37:31.320 to the time. And now all these names are kind 1:37:31.360 --> 1:37:38.480 of not that interesting, but you know, um, first Mouston 1:37:38.560 --> 1:37:40.800 has let first. Bob kraz now has let go. He 1:37:40.840 --> 1:37:42.880 had been running Electric for ten or fifteen years. One 1:37:42.920 --> 1:37:45.120 of the giants of the business didn't get along with 1:37:45.160 --> 1:37:48.240 Bob Mugato. I guess he wasn't. The company was less profitable. 1:37:49.080 --> 1:37:52.479 Doug puts um Sylvia Rohne in his head of Electra. 1:37:53.080 --> 1:37:55.320 Then Lenny Warnicker was supposed to take Then Moe is 1:37:55.360 --> 1:37:57.880 given all right, when his contract is up, he's going 1:37:57.920 --> 1:38:00.800 to be out, which is a gigantic dock to the 1:38:00.840 --> 1:38:04.960 West Coast music community. Was the premier record executive, certainly 1:38:04.960 --> 1:38:08.599 in California, and many people thought in the country and 1:38:08.880 --> 1:38:11.719 beloved by a wide range of people in the entertainment 1:38:11.760 --> 1:38:14.519 business here, and they all sent letters to Jerry Levin, 1:38:14.600 --> 1:38:17.840 you know, all these Quincy Jones, Barbara streisand everybody, and 1:38:17.920 --> 1:38:21.280 Jerry Levin, CEO of Tom Waterer, didn't particularly like being 1:38:21.280 --> 1:38:24.320 pressured that way. That was not an effective tactic. And 1:38:24.479 --> 1:38:28.200 Magato hated Mouston because of some ego thing between the 1:38:28.240 --> 1:38:30.080 two of them that I was not really privy too, 1:38:30.120 --> 1:38:36.200 but was clearly palpable. And um. So then I then 1:38:36.439 --> 1:38:41.360 then uh, Margato gets fired and is replaced by Michael Fuchs, 1:38:41.360 --> 1:38:45.400 who had been running HBO. And then six months later 1:38:45.600 --> 1:38:48.280 and then then Doug gets fired. Then I get fired 1:38:48.320 --> 1:38:50.320 because I was very close to Doug. The people the 1:38:50.360 --> 1:38:54.120 two people closest to Doug corporately were Melo Winter and myself. 1:38:54.160 --> 1:38:57.040 We both got fired immediately right within weeks after Doug 1:38:57.080 --> 1:39:00.439 got fired. Sylvia hung in for a while. Um, they 1:39:00.479 --> 1:39:04.120 got rid of interscope, you know, within a year, UM, 1:39:04.200 --> 1:39:08.960 and Doug by then Universal brings inter scope there and UM. 1:39:09.000 --> 1:39:11.960 And then Michael Fuchs gets fired because he once Jerry 1:39:12.000 --> 1:39:14.120 Levin used him for the purpose of doing all of this, 1:39:14.240 --> 1:39:16.240 he he also turned out and wanted to also get 1:39:16.320 --> 1:39:18.639 rid of Michael Fuchs. So there was an enormous number 1:39:18.640 --> 1:39:22.280 of people fired. So certainly, once Doug got fired, I 1:39:22.360 --> 1:39:25.640 knew my days were numbered. I mean that was I 1:39:25.760 --> 1:39:27.760 was just a matter of how and what day of 1:39:27.840 --> 1:39:30.439 the week it was going to be. I couldn't imagine 1:39:30.479 --> 1:39:33.839 I was so closely identified with him there and and 1:39:34.080 --> 1:39:38.160 you know it was so personal. My whole role and 1:39:38.280 --> 1:39:42.320 there was so based on him, you know. Uh, So 1:39:42.600 --> 1:39:44.519 once he got fired, I figured it was it was 1:39:44.560 --> 1:39:46.760 going to happen. I I stayed for a couple of 1:39:46.760 --> 1:39:49.200 more months and to see if there was any way 1:39:49.200 --> 1:39:52.400 of achieving equilibrium and and to be responsible. I had 1:39:52.439 --> 1:39:54.280 a job until they fired me to do it. But 1:39:54.760 --> 1:39:57.840 my days were clearly numbered then. So once he was fired, 1:39:57.880 --> 1:40:00.280 I was not surprised that I was later fired. And 1:40:00.320 --> 1:40:03.240 you're fired, then you go to Mercury and then not 1:40:03.400 --> 1:40:06.240 long thereafter, Yeah, A Loon Levy hired me to be 1:40:06.880 --> 1:40:09.799 president of Mercury Records. It was a good soft landing 1:40:10.760 --> 1:40:14.000 and what you learned there, well, you know that was 1:40:14.040 --> 1:40:16.240 the That was a job that I had that wasn't 1:40:16.280 --> 1:40:18.960 based on Doug. That was a job I got kind 1:40:19.000 --> 1:40:22.799 of where it was me because Doug was was a mentor. 1:40:23.000 --> 1:40:25.799 He taught me a lot, but he also was always 1:40:25.800 --> 1:40:28.080 the boss, and a Loon Levy was really hands off. 1:40:28.080 --> 1:40:30.479 He was globally. He was running a global company, not 1:40:30.600 --> 1:40:33.799 just the US, and a global company whose main business 1:40:33.880 --> 1:40:36.320 was not in the United States. PolyGram was the biggest 1:40:36.320 --> 1:40:38.400 company everywhere, but the U S and they were a 1:40:38.439 --> 1:40:40.839 major in the US, but they were super major in Europe, 1:40:41.400 --> 1:40:44.760 Latin American Asia. Um So, first of all, it was 1:40:44.800 --> 1:40:46.479 the first time I kind of did it on my own, 1:40:46.640 --> 1:40:49.400 and uh it was that. It was certainly my most 1:40:49.439 --> 1:40:55.160 successful time as an executive. But it was shortened because 1:40:55.240 --> 1:40:57.920 PolyGram ended up being sold to Universal and they eliminated 1:40:57.960 --> 1:41:00.000 the idea of Mercury, you know. But but I had 1:41:00.080 --> 1:41:04.240 three years there. We had the last year I was 1:41:04.280 --> 1:41:07.760 there when Billboard Sounds getting they did their annual who 1:41:07.880 --> 1:41:11.040 which major company had the biggest market share? It was 1:41:11.080 --> 1:41:14.960 the Mercury Group. We beat Columbia, you know, and everybody else. So, 1:41:15.080 --> 1:41:17.880 I mean, I I felt really good about what we accomplished, 1:41:17.920 --> 1:41:21.479 and uh I got to uh, I got to do 1:41:21.600 --> 1:41:25.480 things that were really exciting there, you know. And uh 1:41:25.520 --> 1:41:34.160 what was exciting there? Well, um I I, UM, we 1:41:34.840 --> 1:41:38.360 had some hits. Are always exciting, right, so, you know, 1:41:38.439 --> 1:41:41.680 I Luke Lewis was running Mercury Nashville. He reported to 1:41:41.760 --> 1:41:45.040 me and Chanai Twain's biggest record, which is one of 1:41:45.040 --> 1:41:47.559 the biggest records of all time. It comes out of that. 1:41:47.640 --> 1:41:49.880 We we created what we called the Mercury Group. Where 1:41:49.880 --> 1:41:52.559 we had the pop department also working with the country department. 1:41:52.560 --> 1:41:55.200 It's very hard in those days to to to do 1:41:55.400 --> 1:41:57.639 pop and country at the same time. We pulled it off. 1:41:58.080 --> 1:42:00.760 I had the classical labels for acording to me and 1:42:00.760 --> 1:42:04.880 we we had Andrea Bicelli, you know, who's this unknown 1:42:05.240 --> 1:42:09.160 blind tenor and Pevrotti was in the middle of retiring 1:42:09.240 --> 1:42:11.920 and just kind of room for one of those and 1:42:11.960 --> 1:42:14.479 we were able to throw pbs and other things established 1:42:14.560 --> 1:42:18.000 him and he said twenty year run. Uh. Phil Walden 1:42:18.479 --> 1:42:21.519 had had another iteration of Capricorn that nobody wanted and 1:42:21.520 --> 1:42:23.160 it was one of the first deals I made and 1:42:23.280 --> 1:42:25.760 within a few months we had Platinum Records with three 1:42:25.760 --> 1:42:28.679 eleven and Cake and I got to work with Phil Walden, 1:42:28.720 --> 1:42:31.880 who was you know, had been noticed writings manager in 1:42:31.960 --> 1:42:34.200 the Alman Brothers manager, one of the great again. He 1:42:34.280 --> 1:42:37.120 died young, you know, but in the sixties of cancer, 1:42:37.200 --> 1:42:39.479 but you know, really to me, a giant in his 1:42:39.560 --> 1:42:43.360 own right, you know. You know, Um, we had a 1:42:43.400 --> 1:42:45.920 big We had the first of the boy bands of 1:42:45.960 --> 1:42:48.639 that era was Hansen, you know, before the Backstreet boyson 1:42:48.680 --> 1:42:53.439 in Sync, the first when Total Request Live started on MTV, 1:42:53.600 --> 1:42:56.519 which became kind of the nexus of the boy band era. 1:42:56.680 --> 1:43:00.240 For the first twelve weeks of TRL and Hansen was 1:43:00.240 --> 1:43:02.720 was number one. So that was kind of fun to 1:43:02.800 --> 1:43:04.920 be part of. And the A and our guy that 1:43:04.960 --> 1:43:08.200 I had hired from named Steve Greenberg developed them, still 1:43:08.240 --> 1:43:09.920 a good friend of mine and and and to be 1:43:10.040 --> 1:43:12.599 part of really launching at least one big pop act. 1:43:12.640 --> 1:43:15.120 I mean, Hansen turned out not to want to play 1:43:15.160 --> 1:43:17.759 the game and have future big records, but that first 1:43:17.760 --> 1:43:20.320 record sold ten million records, was number one all over 1:43:20.320 --> 1:43:22.760 the world. And then because we were doing a lot 1:43:22.760 --> 1:43:24.840 of business, I was able to do some of the arts, 1:43:25.040 --> 1:43:29.479 craftsy personal things that I had always dreamed of as 1:43:29.520 --> 1:43:32.000 a record company president. Maybe I could do which so 1:43:32.120 --> 1:43:34.479 we put out I put out Allen Ginsberg's last record, 1:43:34.560 --> 1:43:38.680 to put it to Jim Carroll's last record. Um, you know, 1:43:38.800 --> 1:43:41.719 brought a record, brought in a label called Tri Loca 1:43:41.800 --> 1:43:44.800 that put out the first several Christian Das records. You know, 1:43:44.840 --> 1:43:47.640 it's just things that culturally I was really proud to 1:43:47.640 --> 1:43:49.880 to to to be able to give a place you know, 1:43:49.960 --> 1:43:51.360 in the in the in the in the business. So 1:43:51.439 --> 1:43:53.920 that was really fun. I love that period. But you know, 1:43:54.320 --> 1:43:57.800 corporate events utterly beyond my control. It was some big 1:43:57.800 --> 1:44:02.080 fight in Holland between Phillips and along Levy about you know, 1:44:03.080 --> 1:44:04.840 the film company or something that had nothing to do 1:44:04.880 --> 1:44:06.680 with me. Caused them to sell the company. And once 1:44:06.680 --> 1:44:08.679 it was part of Universal, it was a different vision 1:44:08.720 --> 1:44:11.320 and they created what they called the Island def Jam 1:44:11.439 --> 1:44:13.559 took over most of what Mercury did, and and they 1:44:13.600 --> 1:44:16.680 were probably right. I mean, you know, hip hop was exploding, 1:44:16.720 --> 1:44:21.439 and Lee or was certainly had his handle on it. 1:44:21.479 --> 1:44:24.320 I mean, I I got paid very well for that, 1:44:24.400 --> 1:44:27.400 you know. Uh, that was the best parachute I got. 1:44:28.000 --> 1:44:31.320 But those three that so Mercury at least I felt 1:44:32.120 --> 1:44:35.920 I kind of had had the e ticket ride and 1:44:35.920 --> 1:44:40.960 and uh. But after two corporate convulsions, I was a 1:44:40.960 --> 1:44:45.600 little um dubious about my ability to function intelligently in 1:44:45.600 --> 1:44:48.720 a corporate area. I didn't respond to the pressure very well. 1:44:48.840 --> 1:44:54.160 I I panicked and had ego issues, and you know, 1:44:54.240 --> 1:44:59.080 I I didn't have the kind of centered discipline that 1:44:59.160 --> 1:45:02.240 the great long term corporate players have. You know, I 1:45:02.360 --> 1:45:04.360 was I was more of a rock and roll guy. 1:45:04.680 --> 1:45:07.200 And the next step is Artemus. So then yeah, I 1:45:07.240 --> 1:45:10.200 had Artemus I found a guy named Michael Chambers approached 1:45:10.200 --> 1:45:12.960 me right away. He had his father's a very successful 1:45:13.680 --> 1:45:17.639 leverage buyout genius and they had and Michael loved Nirvana 1:45:17.680 --> 1:45:21.040 and wanted to start a label and started Artemus, not 1:45:21.640 --> 1:45:25.040 you know, thinking that I could do what like Interscope 1:45:25.040 --> 1:45:27.320 had done. That was my model, but of course it 1:45:27.400 --> 1:45:29.880 was first of all, I'm not Jimmy Ivan. Secondly, it 1:45:29.960 --> 1:45:32.240 was the wrong time to do it. We started Artemus 1:45:32.280 --> 1:45:35.360 just as the record business was spiraling downward financially and 1:45:35.400 --> 1:45:38.880 the you know, the the the MP three, dot Com 1:45:38.920 --> 1:45:42.120 and Napster and you know, the digital world was was 1:45:42.120 --> 1:45:45.519 was eroding the value of masters. So I couldn't fight 1:45:45.600 --> 1:45:49.320 that that wave. I was totally not equipped for it. 1:45:49.360 --> 1:45:51.479 I was fighting the last war. But we had some 1:45:51.520 --> 1:45:53.080 records I'm really proud of it. Made the last three 1:45:53.120 --> 1:45:56.680 Warrant Yvon records, the third of which one in Grahamy's 1:45:56.720 --> 1:45:59.240 and his gold record That's where I met Steve are 1:45:59.280 --> 1:46:02.519 all made for Steve row records. Uh two of them 1:46:02.520 --> 1:46:06.280 at won Grammys. Uh made a Jimmy for One record 1:46:06.280 --> 1:46:08.960 that won a Grammy, made Hubert Someone's last record, did 1:46:08.960 --> 1:46:13.519 a Pretender's record, Um. And we had to let the 1:46:13.520 --> 1:46:16.439 dogs out. So you know, it was it was not nothing, 1:46:16.560 --> 1:46:20.160 but but it was. It was doomed because I just 1:46:20.200 --> 1:46:23.240 didn't I didn't have the clarity. You know, Daniel Glasses, 1:46:23.479 --> 1:46:26.800 I was chairman, he was president. You know, I'm I'm 1:46:26.840 --> 1:46:28.599 proud of what we did at Artemus, but it was 1:46:28.680 --> 1:46:32.439 it was the wrong business model. It was a business 1:46:32.479 --> 1:46:34.679 model that would have been great for ten years earlier, 1:46:35.160 --> 1:46:37.599 and I, you know, I didn't So but you know, 1:46:37.920 --> 1:46:40.040 again there's the records that we put out that I'm 1:46:40.080 --> 1:46:42.799 very proud of. So now you're a manager again. Correct? 1:46:42.960 --> 1:46:46.320 So what you know you could have just said I'm done? Yeah? 1:46:46.640 --> 1:46:50.600 Why why get back in? Um? You know, I I 1:46:50.720 --> 1:46:54.200 like to work. Um, I I feel better about myself 1:46:54.240 --> 1:46:57.479 when I'm working. I don't really, you know, I I 1:46:57.680 --> 1:47:02.360 my self esteem requires the idea of doing something. Uh 1:47:02.520 --> 1:47:06.000 so far, I do meditate and I defined myself when 1:47:06.040 --> 1:47:08.760 I'm in my highest moments as being not just the 1:47:08.880 --> 1:47:13.080 some of my external work and accomplishments, but most of 1:47:13.080 --> 1:47:16.120 the time I'm the same schmuck that wants to be 1:47:16.240 --> 1:47:19.559 somebody and do something. And the only thing I really 1:47:19.600 --> 1:47:23.360 have expertise in is is is whatever corner of the 1:47:23.439 --> 1:47:27.200 music business I have at any given moment in time. 1:47:27.280 --> 1:47:29.760 So I spent a year or leaving I experimented. I'd 1:47:29.760 --> 1:47:32.360 always had this real interest as a political activist. Ever 1:47:32.400 --> 1:47:34.479 since No Nukes, I've been very involved with a lot 1:47:34.520 --> 1:47:36.479 of political things. I've been the chairman of the a 1:47:36.520 --> 1:47:38.599 c o U of Southern California for seven years when 1:47:38.600 --> 1:47:41.320 I lived out here, and uh, you know, wrote a 1:47:41.360 --> 1:47:45.120 book about politics and culture. Uh. And so I did 1:47:45.160 --> 1:47:47.720 take a non music business job, which was the to 1:47:47.800 --> 1:47:51.240 be the chairman of Air America Radio coming out of Artemus, 1:47:51.240 --> 1:47:53.760 which turned out to be doomed. I noticed you had 1:47:54.000 --> 1:47:57.880 Rob Glazers recent podcast guest, and he was he was 1:47:58.000 --> 1:48:02.080 my least favorite boss. Because I don't want to go 1:48:02.120 --> 1:48:04.320 into it. I'm just trying to say I'm not gonna 1:48:04.360 --> 1:48:07.400 make it. Was he hands on? Well, I mean I 1:48:07.439 --> 1:48:13.440 would say this. Um. When I first got the job. Um, 1:48:13.520 --> 1:48:15.120 he was coming out to l A to try to 1:48:15.200 --> 1:48:18.640 raise some money from the Hollywood liberal community, and I said, you, 1:48:18.840 --> 1:48:20.280 I know, I said, I know, I'm not starting for 1:48:20.320 --> 1:48:21.400 a week or two you but do you want me 1:48:21.400 --> 1:48:22.960 to come with you? I know a lot of these people, 1:48:23.040 --> 1:48:24.679 you know, because when I was here, I was really 1:48:24.720 --> 1:48:27.479 part of that community and meant a lot to me 1:48:27.479 --> 1:48:30.639 and I and I had some credibility with a lot 1:48:30.640 --> 1:48:32.760 of normally are and those kind of people. And he 1:48:32.760 --> 1:48:34.040 said no, no no, no, he says, I don't want you 1:48:34.080 --> 1:48:35.759 to worry about money. I want you to run the company. 1:48:35.800 --> 1:48:39.240 I said great. So then three weeks later, I'm now 1:48:39.320 --> 1:48:42.000 running the company. They've announced it, and the in house 1:48:42.120 --> 1:48:44.720 controller they didn't have a normal CFO comes to me 1:48:44.760 --> 1:48:47.840 and says, Um, by the way, we don't have the 1:48:47.840 --> 1:48:52.200 money for the payroll, and and and you know, as 1:48:52.280 --> 1:48:54.120 I called him, and I said, Rob, we don't have 1:48:54.160 --> 1:48:55.479 the money to the payroll. What do I do? He says, 1:48:55.479 --> 1:48:58.320 you're the CEO. You figure it out. So I knew 1:48:58.360 --> 1:49:01.559 I was fun. You know, there was underfunded. He he 1:49:01.600 --> 1:49:03.920 did lose money on it. I mean he put millions 1:49:03.960 --> 1:49:06.240 of dollars into it, but it required much more money 1:49:06.320 --> 1:49:08.680 than that, and there wasn't a plan to raise the 1:49:08.680 --> 1:49:10.600 rest of the money. There was this if you build it, 1:49:10.640 --> 1:49:13.719 they will come notion, which is that's a movie. People 1:49:13.720 --> 1:49:15.479 would say that. I said, no, that's a movie. That's 1:49:15.520 --> 1:49:23.160 not real. That was like, you know, so you know, um, 1:49:23.439 --> 1:49:28.040 when that, uh, when that flopped. Um it went bankrupt 1:49:28.080 --> 1:49:30.040 not long after. I spent about a year there. Again. 1:49:30.080 --> 1:49:32.120 It a very interesting experience, and to be able to 1:49:32.160 --> 1:49:34.760 work with Al Franklin was an incredible honor. I'm a 1:49:34.800 --> 1:49:36.400 great fan of his. I wish he was still in 1:49:36.400 --> 1:49:39.080 the Senate. Rachel Mattow was our you know. I put 1:49:39.120 --> 1:49:41.519 her into Morning Drive and she's had the celestrious career. 1:49:41.520 --> 1:49:42.880 There were a couple of things came out of it 1:49:42.920 --> 1:49:46.320 that are notable, but it was a failed business. And 1:49:47.240 --> 1:49:49.960 Steve Earle had been on Artemus and he called me, 1:49:50.360 --> 1:49:52.280 and I knew he was looking for a new manager 1:49:52.320 --> 1:49:53.880 because he'd had a falling out with the guy who 1:49:53.880 --> 1:49:56.560 had been managing him for years. And he called me, 1:49:56.640 --> 1:49:59.360 says and I said, look, man, I don't know if 1:49:59.360 --> 1:50:01.639 you'd be interested it, but this thing is going under. 1:50:02.240 --> 1:50:06.960 And I was thinking about being a manager again. And 1:50:07.040 --> 1:50:09.080 so he called me back an hour later and he says, 1:50:09.120 --> 1:50:12.439 if you're in, I'm in. So I just figured there 1:50:12.439 --> 1:50:14.519 it is, you know, I you know, I had a 1:50:14.560 --> 1:50:17.720 client and uh, I still work with Steve Earl. I mean, 1:50:17.760 --> 1:50:20.280 so it turns out to be the longest relationship I've 1:50:20.280 --> 1:50:22.439 ever had with an artist. It's not seventeen years we've 1:50:22.479 --> 1:50:26.280 we've worked together, and um, I just didn't want to quit. 1:50:26.360 --> 1:50:28.200 I just didn't know what I would do if I quit. 1:50:28.400 --> 1:50:32.639 You know, Now, because I've been writing more regularly, at 1:50:32.680 --> 1:50:35.400 least I have some confidence that there's something else I 1:50:35.400 --> 1:50:37.160 could do. You know, I published that book last year 1:50:37.160 --> 1:50:39.960 about the sixties nine seven. I have this one coming 1:50:39.960 --> 1:50:43.479 about Kurt. I've been writing regularly for the nation. I 1:50:43.520 --> 1:50:45.479 finally kind of have a discipline as a writer that 1:50:45.520 --> 1:50:49.280 I didn't have in my early twenties. But um, you know, 1:50:49.400 --> 1:50:52.920 I I I like, uh, it's the only thing in 1:50:52.960 --> 1:50:55.800 the world where I've had a role is the is 1:50:55.840 --> 1:50:57.800 the rock and roll world. I don't, you know, It's 1:50:57.800 --> 1:51:00.400 not like I could get another job doing anything thing else. 1:51:01.080 --> 1:51:04.000 And I like working, and I like, I don't like 1:51:04.080 --> 1:51:06.840 every minute of it, but you know, I I'm really 1:51:07.720 --> 1:51:10.160 very grateful to have a little piece of it. And 1:51:10.200 --> 1:51:12.599 I've had a very interesting ride at highs and low 1:51:12.680 --> 1:51:16.800 is big and small, but you know, I still think 1:51:16.840 --> 1:51:20.240 it's a honorable profession. And I don't know what else 1:51:20.280 --> 1:51:22.760 to do. Okay, let's just drill down a little bit. 1:51:22.760 --> 1:51:26.120 Steve Earle Steve Earle, you know, comes out in the 1:51:26.200 --> 1:51:30.519 eighties as the new White Hope, makes these incredible records, 1:51:30.560 --> 1:51:33.320 Guitar Town, etcetera. In a different area. If you're Steve 1:51:33.360 --> 1:51:37.559 Earle today and you're approaching sixty, what does the business 1:51:37.680 --> 1:51:41.160 look like for somebody like that? Uh, yeah, he's over sixty. 1:51:41.320 --> 1:51:46.559 He's over sixty. He's five years younger than me. Um. Well, 1:51:47.120 --> 1:51:52.240 the number one characteristic for an artist in a category 1:51:52.280 --> 1:51:56.280 that includes him is that the primary business is is 1:51:56.280 --> 1:52:00.120 selling concert tickets. You know that the records are are 1:52:00.200 --> 1:52:04.599 are your legacy and their marketing tool for your concert business. 1:52:04.640 --> 1:52:09.120 They're not your main source of income. Um The second 1:52:09.160 --> 1:52:15.200 thing about the business is that it's about it's increasingly 1:52:15.240 --> 1:52:19.559 about trying to monetize the super fan. It's not it's 1:52:19.600 --> 1:52:22.160 it's hard to grow new fans. Every once in a while, 1:52:22.320 --> 1:52:25.040 something happened. Somebody has a song in a movie or 1:52:25.080 --> 1:52:27.720 a commercial, or or a magic song of some kind 1:52:27.760 --> 1:52:31.400 that expands their audience when they're older. Um. You know, 1:52:31.560 --> 1:52:34.280 Zevon expands this audience when he was dying, you know. 1:52:34.439 --> 1:52:40.400 But more common for artists, whether it's Springsteen or Jackson 1:52:40.439 --> 1:52:43.840 Brown or Steve Earl or you know fifty other names 1:52:43.840 --> 1:52:46.920 that we could we could mention it. It's it's it's 1:52:46.960 --> 1:52:52.599 about figuring out to maintain those fans and and some 1:52:52.720 --> 1:52:57.439 of them will pay for uh you know, uh Golden 1:52:57.439 --> 1:53:03.519 Circle tickets or uh a luxe editions signed things, uh 1:53:03.920 --> 1:53:07.000 being able to come to the sound check. Um, you know, 1:53:07.120 --> 1:53:09.920 it's about it's about servicing your super fans. It's it's 1:53:10.000 --> 1:53:12.240 kind of a hybrid between the old music business and 1:53:12.320 --> 1:53:15.040 kind of the business of being like a painter, where 1:53:15.040 --> 1:53:18.479 you've got you know, it's kind of it's it's not 1:53:18.560 --> 1:53:20.519 like someone spending a million dollars for a painting, but 1:53:20.560 --> 1:53:23.840 it's also not like somebody just streaming something hundreds and 1:53:23.920 --> 1:53:26.240 hundreds or millions of times. You know. It's it's it's 1:53:26.280 --> 1:53:28.320 it's it's about it. It's about an intense group of 1:53:28.360 --> 1:53:31.200 super fans, many of whom will pay more money. So 1:53:31.240 --> 1:53:33.960 you've got venues like the City Winery that pay very 1:53:34.040 --> 1:53:35.720 very well because they make so much money on the 1:53:35.760 --> 1:53:39.040 wine and the food. You've got these performing arts centers, uh, 1:53:39.080 --> 1:53:40.920 and then of course for the bigger artists. You know, 1:53:40.960 --> 1:53:43.200 you've got two hundred and fifty dollar tickets that are 1:53:43.320 --> 1:53:45.800 that are that are part of the ecosystem that was 1:53:45.880 --> 1:53:49.240 unheard of. So so that's the world you know, it's 1:53:49.280 --> 1:53:52.840 about it's about finding your fans uh and uh and 1:53:52.960 --> 1:53:56.920 monetizing them um with and and and you you of 1:53:56.920 --> 1:53:59.760 course everybody always wants new fans, but but if you're 1:53:59.760 --> 1:54:01.320 trying to make sure you can pay your bills for 1:54:01.360 --> 1:54:03.400 the year, it's about servicing the fans that you have. 1:54:03.720 --> 1:54:06.479 So if you're someone like Steve Rrol, how many super 1:54:06.479 --> 1:54:11.080 fans would you think he has? Well? Um, I mean 1:54:11.120 --> 1:54:14.200 on Spotify it says eight hundred thousand people a month 1:54:14.320 --> 1:54:20.400 visit his page, so that's a number I like. Um, 1:54:20.520 --> 1:54:24.960 he's got um uh. He's a global artist. You know, 1:54:25.040 --> 1:54:27.200 he tours. He's in Europe right now as we speak. 1:54:27.240 --> 1:54:29.680 You know, he's he's you know, you can sell a 1:54:29.720 --> 1:54:33.040 couple of thousand tickets and uh in London and Dublin 1:54:33.120 --> 1:54:37.240 and Stockholm, Australia. You know, Canada has always been as 1:54:37.240 --> 1:54:38.760 big as a market. So if he's going, he's selling 1:54:38.760 --> 1:54:41.720 couple hundred tickets, couple of thousand, couple of thousand, ye 1:54:42.080 --> 1:54:44.640 no big, Yeah, there's a couple of no no no 1:54:44.640 --> 1:54:47.720 no no no no no, A couple of thousands. Yeah, yeah, 1:54:47.800 --> 1:54:50.600 no so, um, a couple of thousand tickets. Sure, you 1:54:50.640 --> 1:54:54.600 know he's got a band. Um. Sometimes he plays solo. 1:54:54.680 --> 1:54:57.160 Obviously the margin is bigger when he plays solo. But 1:54:57.280 --> 1:54:59.920 on the other hand, the key with the audiences is 1:55:00.040 --> 1:55:02.600 to keep doing something different each time. Right now. In 1:55:02.680 --> 1:55:06.879 the last American tour was him, Lucinda Williams, Dwight Yoakum 1:55:06.880 --> 1:55:09.760 and Steve. They called the L S D Tour. Uh 1:55:09.840 --> 1:55:12.120 you know. Uh. Then he did a cycle with him 1:55:12.120 --> 1:55:14.200 and Sewan Colvin. They did a record together and they 1:55:14.240 --> 1:55:17.920 toured together. Um. You know his next record is going 1:55:18.000 --> 1:55:20.920 to be a record of Guy Clark songs. Uh. You know, 1:55:20.960 --> 1:55:25.640 one of his mentor is one of the great Americana icons. Um. 1:55:25.760 --> 1:55:27.800 He won a Grammy a few years ago for an 1:55:27.840 --> 1:55:29.760 album he did of towns, fans and songs. You know, 1:55:29.760 --> 1:55:32.680 Steve is very smart about trying to create a narrative 1:55:32.720 --> 1:55:35.640 for each cycle because the main exposure vehicle is is 1:55:35.680 --> 1:55:38.520 the old school media. You know, there's only there's some 1:55:38.640 --> 1:55:40.480 radio stations that will play him. I mean here in 1:55:40.520 --> 1:55:43.680 Los Angeles KCS and always play Steve, and there are 1:55:43.800 --> 1:55:46.680 a w FUV and there's a noncommon you know, he 1:55:46.720 --> 1:55:49.440 has a weekly show on serious radio and things like that. 1:55:49.520 --> 1:55:52.480 But but kind of having the narrative that can cross 1:55:52.920 --> 1:55:55.160 the old and new media is kind of a way 1:55:55.160 --> 1:55:58.320 of letting fans know. So, like this year was thirtieth 1:55:58.320 --> 1:56:00.920 anniversary of Copperhead Roads, so he did a Copperhead Road 1:56:00.920 --> 1:56:06.440 tour and you know, that did about more ticket sales 1:56:06.480 --> 1:56:09.440 than his last tour because he played the whole album. 1:56:09.480 --> 1:56:12.360 It was easy. It was a one liner the elevator 1:56:12.400 --> 1:56:15.920 pitcheets all of Copperhead Road and some and some other songs. 1:56:15.960 --> 1:56:18.080 So it's it's it's the marketing part of it is 1:56:18.120 --> 1:56:21.720 about a narrative. The economics is about what the ticket 1:56:21.760 --> 1:56:24.480 price is, multiplied by how many people will buy the tickets, 1:56:24.520 --> 1:56:26.640 adding to which the amount of merch you sell, and 1:56:27.120 --> 1:56:29.680 making sure that you spend enough less than that between 1:56:29.720 --> 1:56:31.880 the tour bus and the crew and what you pay 1:56:31.920 --> 1:56:33.840 the musicians, so that there's a profit at the end 1:56:33.880 --> 1:56:36.320 of it. You know, And if you can have a 1:56:36.400 --> 1:56:40.480 thousand or two thousand fans and seventy rading markets around 1:56:40.520 --> 1:56:42.040 the world, you can make a good living. You're not 1:56:42.080 --> 1:56:45.200 going to become a billionaire or you know. Lifestyle is 1:56:45.240 --> 1:56:47.400 the rich and familists, but it's it's it's it's a 1:56:47.760 --> 1:56:50.720 definitely a good, good living. So the same would be 1:56:50.720 --> 1:56:52.840 true of Bonnie Ray, Jackson Brown, you know, a whole 1:56:52.880 --> 1:56:55.960 category of artists and and there's an artistry to a too. 1:56:56.000 --> 1:56:59.320 I think as a fan of the last five years 1:56:59.360 --> 1:57:02.040 of Leonard Owen's career, you know, to me or among 1:57:02.120 --> 1:57:07.200 the most inspiring, profound artistic moments as a fan that 1:57:07.240 --> 1:57:09.600 I ever had, those last several albums he made, those 1:57:09.680 --> 1:57:13.480 last few tours he did. So you know, it's not 1:57:13.520 --> 1:57:16.480 only about being as big as Drake. You know, you can't. 1:57:16.560 --> 1:57:19.200 You can't compete with people fifty years younger than you were, 1:57:19.240 --> 1:57:21.360 forty years younger than you. You know, youth has a 1:57:21.360 --> 1:57:24.840 certain thing to it. But the exciting thing to me 1:57:24.880 --> 1:57:27.560 about our generation is that there are is that emerge 1:57:27.640 --> 1:57:29.640 that some of them have found a way to stay 1:57:29.680 --> 1:57:31.920 relevant as artists, and some of them are just doing 1:57:31.920 --> 1:57:34.960 all these shows obviously, but Leonard Cohen, to me, is 1:57:35.000 --> 1:57:37.480 one of the great examples of someone in the latter 1:57:37.520 --> 1:57:39.280 part of their career and not also doing some of 1:57:39.280 --> 1:57:42.280 his best work. And I think Steve is doing great work. 1:57:42.320 --> 1:57:44.600 I think Steve's last few records are are as good 1:57:44.600 --> 1:57:46.560 as anything he ever did. I think Lucid the Williams 1:57:46.680 --> 1:57:48.800 last few records are as good as anything she ever did. 1:57:49.320 --> 1:57:51.280 And then there are other people whose best work is 1:57:51.320 --> 1:57:53.480 twenty years or thirty years ago. You know, it's just 1:57:53.600 --> 1:57:55.920 it's it's like any other kind of creative person, whether 1:57:55.920 --> 1:57:58.160 it's a novelist. Not every novelist can do what Philip 1:57:58.280 --> 1:58:01.280 Roth did, but Philip Browth did it right. And not 1:58:01.400 --> 1:58:04.640 every filmmaker can stay relevant the way Scorsese does, but 1:58:04.680 --> 1:58:06.760 there is a Scorsese. And it's just one of those 1:58:06.800 --> 1:58:11.880 things about about aging. Some artists lose their inspiration as 1:58:11.880 --> 1:58:15.760 they get older, and some keep it. So really, you've 1:58:15.800 --> 1:58:17.640 been there from the beginning because you were awake when 1:58:17.680 --> 1:58:21.440 the Beatles arrived. You're involved starting in six the Woodstock, 1:58:21.680 --> 1:58:24.960 and you here today with all that perspective, What do 1:58:25.000 --> 1:58:30.840 you think of music and the music business today? You know, 1:58:31.000 --> 1:58:35.160 I tend to see things just through my own prism. 1:58:35.560 --> 1:58:38.280 You you would be much better able to have an 1:58:38.320 --> 1:58:42.800 overview than I do. My My professional life revolves around 1:58:42.800 --> 1:58:45.400 a handful of artists who I work with, and then 1:58:45.440 --> 1:58:47.440 if I get a new client, then I see it 1:58:47.480 --> 1:58:50.640 through their prism and and uh, you know, I see 1:58:50.680 --> 1:58:52.360 it through the prism of some of my friends who 1:58:52.400 --> 1:58:54.680 manage other acts or who work with other artists. But 1:58:55.280 --> 1:58:58.240 I'm not at Billboard anymore. I'm not at MTV. I'm 1:58:58.280 --> 1:59:00.760 not you. I don't have to have it. It's not 1:59:00.840 --> 1:59:06.440 my job description to have an overview, you know. Obviously, um, 1:59:06.960 --> 1:59:10.120 streaming is how people are consuming music. I'm no different. 1:59:10.200 --> 1:59:12.600 I I liked it better when we sold these physical 1:59:12.600 --> 1:59:15.240 products because I understood the economics very well, and it 1:59:15.360 --> 1:59:18.080 was it was a system that worked for a lot 1:59:18.120 --> 1:59:21.440 of people. But I listened to of the music I 1:59:21.480 --> 1:59:25.000 listened to on Spotify because it's so convenient, and there's 1:59:25.000 --> 1:59:27.000 a few things they don't have that I have to 1:59:27.040 --> 1:59:29.960 listen to in another way, But anything that's on Spotify, 1:59:30.000 --> 1:59:32.120 that's how I'm going to listen to it. I mean, 1:59:32.680 --> 1:59:36.320 obviously there's a subculture of audiophiles who like vinyl. It's 1:59:36.360 --> 1:59:38.920 not that economically important, but those are the people who 1:59:38.960 --> 1:59:42.560 buy the expensive concert tickets also, so those are super fans. 1:59:43.520 --> 1:59:46.200 The concert business is probably as healthy as it's ever 1:59:46.280 --> 1:59:49.360 been in my lifetime. The the the number of festivals 1:59:49.400 --> 1:59:51.920 around the world, the amount of money people will pay 1:59:51.920 --> 1:59:55.120 for tickets to things that they like, the continued role 1:59:55.240 --> 1:59:58.600 that music has for wealthy, older audiences. So the kind 1:59:58.600 --> 2:00:04.080 of the kind of uh, you know, Bruce Springsteen, the 2:00:04.080 --> 2:00:06.360 face price on the best tickets to that show are 2:00:06.400 --> 2:00:09.600 eight hundred and fifty dollars. You know. Um, that's not 2:00:09.680 --> 2:00:14.960 a scalpers price, you know. Yeah, well you know that's 2:00:14.960 --> 2:00:18.760 a good way of doing it. Um. And obviously stub 2:00:18.800 --> 2:00:21.880 hub and other things like that too. But so I 2:00:21.920 --> 2:00:25.000 think the live businesses as a business very vital. I 2:00:25.000 --> 2:00:27.880 think the record business is being reinvented, and there are 2:00:28.280 --> 2:00:31.200 fifty people a lot smarter than me who could talk 2:00:31.240 --> 2:00:34.320 about what it's going to be. But obviously the aggregant 2:00:34.320 --> 2:00:37.800 amount of money that's dreaming is generating is probably a 2:00:37.800 --> 2:00:39.760 few years away from getting up to what it used 2:00:39.800 --> 2:00:43.400 to be with with the physical product, how it's divided. Um, 2:00:43.440 --> 2:00:46.640 I don't think that conversation is over. I think it's 2:00:46.640 --> 2:00:50.880 a little weird, you know. Um, I pay my ten 2:00:50.920 --> 2:00:52.920 dollars a month for Spotify, and so it is my 2:00:53.000 --> 2:00:57.000 son and he probably listens to ten times as much 2:00:57.040 --> 2:01:00.160 on Spotify as I do. So I might listen to 2:01:00.200 --> 2:01:03.640 my Bob Dylan, you know, once a week and somebody 2:01:03.640 --> 2:01:06.360 else is listening to Drake you know, a hundred or 2:01:06.360 --> 2:01:09.800 two hundred times a week, but it's the same ten dollars. 2:01:09.880 --> 2:01:11.840 So in that sense, Bob Dylan is kind of getting 2:01:11.840 --> 2:01:15.800 screwed because they're paying based on the quantity of streams, 2:01:16.040 --> 2:01:18.880 not based Well, there was a study once, the studies 2:01:18.880 --> 2:01:22.040 about five years old at this point, where they allocated 2:01:22.040 --> 2:01:24.360 it the way you're talking about it, and actually the 2:01:24.440 --> 2:01:27.280 revenue went down for those martial artists. Now that has 2:01:27.320 --> 2:01:31.440 not been redone since streaming is really gained traction. So 2:01:31.480 --> 2:01:35.560 it's really about the math. Look, it's it's it's there 2:01:35.600 --> 2:01:39.760 has to be a formula. Obviously. It's also a transition 2:01:39.800 --> 2:01:42.400 in terms of the record deals. When see these first 2:01:42.440 --> 2:01:47.000 came out, written into all the contracts was a packaging 2:01:47.080 --> 2:01:50.040 deduction of twenty five or thirty because of the cost 2:01:50.080 --> 2:01:53.440 of manufacturing see these. By the time those contracts were 2:01:53.480 --> 2:01:55.960 over see these went down from costing three dollars and 2:01:56.000 --> 2:02:00.920 fifty cents to manufacture to a quarter. So during these transitions, 2:02:00.920 --> 2:02:04.760 the record companies make make a big margin, and then 2:02:04.800 --> 2:02:10.080 as people renegotiate deals, these percentages you know obviously obviously changed. 2:02:10.120 --> 2:02:11.840 So part of it is that. Part of it is 2:02:11.880 --> 2:02:16.480 that the algorithm I think does favor um people with 2:02:16.520 --> 2:02:19.280 an appeal to younger audiences than people with an appeal 2:02:19.280 --> 2:02:21.840 to older audiences, because younger people are going to listen 2:02:21.840 --> 2:02:24.440 a lot more. But it's still only ten dollars a 2:02:24.480 --> 2:02:27.200 month if you listen to a five thousand streams a 2:02:27.200 --> 2:02:30.720 month or five streams a month. But I don't know. 2:02:30.920 --> 2:02:32.680 I'm not a math genius to know what to do 2:02:32.760 --> 2:02:34.920 about it. But there are people thinking about this, and 2:02:34.960 --> 2:02:36.800 I think we're gonna see some other models in the 2:02:36.880 --> 2:02:39.040 last in the next few years. But obviously it's going 2:02:39.080 --> 2:02:42.760 to become it's it's a big business. It's still gonna 2:02:42.760 --> 2:02:44.440 be a big business. I'm not sure i'll be the 2:02:44.520 --> 2:02:46.560 right person to have a leadership role in it, but 2:02:46.640 --> 2:02:49.760 I still think I can represent artists of the generation 2:02:49.800 --> 2:02:54.000 that I understand, and uh, I see things through the 2:02:54.000 --> 2:02:56.960 prison of my clients, So it depends on on who 2:02:57.040 --> 2:02:59.240 they are. But it certainly didn't die. You know, there 2:02:59.240 --> 2:03:01.120 were a lot of people thought the record business was 2:03:01.120 --> 2:03:04.040 going to die. I didn't. It's definitely bigger than it 2:03:04.120 --> 2:03:05.960 was a couple of years ago because of the growth 2:03:05.960 --> 2:03:09.480 of streaming, and it's there. Streaming is nowhere near mature yet. 2:03:10.160 --> 2:03:13.600 You know, I think this whole idea of free has 2:03:13.640 --> 2:03:15.560 to go by the way side, you know. And this 2:03:15.680 --> 2:03:18.880 is a uh you know, when I got when I 2:03:18.920 --> 2:03:23.240 was in Atlantic, I mentioned earlier Stone Temple Pilots. Was 2:03:23.320 --> 2:03:27.280 this very important signing to me? And so they sold 2:03:27.360 --> 2:03:29.280 I think four million on a record and then there 2:03:29.320 --> 2:03:33.160 was a million four sold through the record clubs and 2:03:33.240 --> 2:03:36.440 the margin on the front line sales was like four 2:03:36.520 --> 2:03:38.400 dollars a unit or something. Once you were over a 2:03:38.440 --> 2:03:41.480 million units is very profitable because your marketing course weren't 2:03:41.520 --> 2:03:44.680 going up anymore. And on the record clubs the profit 2:03:44.800 --> 2:03:47.480 was like fifty cents. And I used to say, why 2:03:47.480 --> 2:03:48.920 are we doing this? Why are we doing this? And 2:03:48.920 --> 2:03:50.600 no one would ever answer the question, and there was 2:03:50.640 --> 2:03:52.560 nothing I could do about it was corporate decision. So 2:03:52.560 --> 2:03:55.200 then I get the PolyGram and now I'm reporting to 2:03:55.240 --> 2:03:58.200 Alan Levy, who's the worldwide head, not just not just 2:03:58.240 --> 2:04:00.400 a regional head. And I asked him the same question. 2:04:01.240 --> 2:04:03.280 I can't do a French accent, but he gave me 2:04:03.360 --> 2:04:04.920 one of these young men, let me explain to you 2:04:04.960 --> 2:04:06.720 how the world works. And you say, look, I get 2:04:07.040 --> 2:04:09.400 fifty million dollar advanced at the beginning of the year 2:04:09.480 --> 2:04:12.160 from the Columbia Records Club. I mean that might not 2:04:12.200 --> 2:04:14.240 be at that exact number, but something like they said, 2:04:14.280 --> 2:04:16.120 so I can plan my whole year. I know that 2:04:16.200 --> 2:04:19.920 for sure we're profitable. And he said, the lower the 2:04:20.000 --> 2:04:23.000 royalty the better because we have to split the royalty 2:04:23.040 --> 2:04:26.680 fifty fifty with the artists. But the unrecouped amount we keep. 2:04:26.800 --> 2:04:29.920 And I got another advance next year. That's how all 2:04:29.960 --> 2:04:33.440 these initial deals were done with Apple and Spotify and everything. 2:04:33.600 --> 2:04:37.880 I I know for sure, and and so that's um. 2:04:37.920 --> 2:04:41.400 That's a short term high for the labels, even though 2:04:42.000 --> 2:04:45.280 it undermines their long term model, because the long term 2:04:45.280 --> 2:04:47.880 model has to be people paying for it free. The 2:04:47.960 --> 2:04:52.440 advertising revenue generated is not remotely comparable to what it 2:04:52.520 --> 2:04:54.880 is to sell products. But if you're getting ten dollars 2:04:54.880 --> 2:04:57.360 a month, it's it's real. You know, you're multiplied by 2:04:57.360 --> 2:05:00.280 a billion people or whatever. Mark Tiger said, you can 2:05:00.360 --> 2:05:03.240 eventually do you know? That's a that's a that's a 2:05:03.280 --> 2:05:05.560 bigger business than the old c D business. So I 2:05:05.600 --> 2:05:07.560 think it's gonna be a big business. I don't know 2:05:07.600 --> 2:05:09.480 what role I'll play in it. But it ain't going away, 2:05:09.960 --> 2:05:12.800 and the live business has never gone away, and it's 2:05:12.800 --> 2:05:15.680 probably healthier than ever. The digital world makes it easier 2:05:15.720 --> 2:05:19.200 to superserve fans of individual artists, to identify them and 2:05:19.240 --> 2:05:22.840 find them cheaper to market to them, and we found 2:05:22.840 --> 2:05:25.880 that older people will pay a lot of money for 2:05:26.040 --> 2:05:28.560 that live experience, even though there's all these things you 2:05:28.560 --> 2:05:31.480 can do in a home theater and the quality gets 2:05:31.480 --> 2:05:34.480 better and better. There's something about being in a room 2:05:34.520 --> 2:05:36.879 full of people in real time, whether it's a sports 2:05:36.880 --> 2:05:41.320 event or a or a musical event, that is different 2:05:41.400 --> 2:05:43.840 from seeing it on a screen, and that has not 2:05:43.960 --> 2:05:46.520 going away. And so, you know, I think it's that 2:05:46.640 --> 2:05:49.280 people ask me, is there a music business young people 2:05:49.320 --> 2:05:51.400 come to you can? So yeah, I don't know. You know, 2:05:51.440 --> 2:05:53.360 you gotta get lucky, you gotta have hits. But it's 2:05:53.440 --> 2:05:57.400 it's not going away, okay, And you personally relevant music 2:05:57.440 --> 2:06:00.839 business maybe contained with the time you have on the planet, 2:06:01.480 --> 2:06:04.880 anything you want to do, any dreams, unfulfilled bucket list 2:06:05.040 --> 2:06:11.640 or certain desires. You know, I'm I'm really a bee 2:06:11.680 --> 2:06:14.280 here now, guy, you know, I mean that's that's my 2:06:14.400 --> 2:06:18.080 hippie roots are growing bigger and bigger as I get older. 2:06:18.120 --> 2:06:20.720 You know, it's not about taking LSD but some of 2:06:20.720 --> 2:06:25.520 the ideas that came with that about really you know, 2:06:25.560 --> 2:06:29.720 one of my heroes and the people you know, wrote 2:06:29.720 --> 2:06:32.320 a dedicated my last book too, is rondas you know, 2:06:32.680 --> 2:06:38.280 Richard Albert, originally the lsd UH spokesperson who then became 2:06:38.320 --> 2:06:40.720 a mystic and a teacher. And you know, to me, 2:06:40.760 --> 2:06:42.640 it's really about just trying to in the moment be 2:06:42.680 --> 2:06:45.160 a good person and do as good as I can 2:06:45.480 --> 2:06:50.320 and appreciate the moment. And uh, I'm really enjoying writing. 2:06:50.480 --> 2:06:53.200 I love working with you know, some of the artists 2:06:53.240 --> 2:06:55.880 I work with, I get paid very well. For some 2:06:55.960 --> 2:06:58.000 of them, I don't get paid anything for But as 2:06:58.000 --> 2:07:01.200 long as as long as I can feel I'm doing 2:07:01.240 --> 2:07:04.040 something useful in the moment, that's that's. That's that's I'm 2:07:04.040 --> 2:07:06.960 trying to think that way more and more and less 2:07:06.960 --> 2:07:10.520 and less about having a bucket list. I'm gonna I'm 2:07:10.560 --> 2:07:14.240 in a non bucket list mode. I'm I'm gonna be 2:07:14.360 --> 2:07:17.080 here now mode. Okay. Any regret that you didn't go 2:07:17.120 --> 2:07:21.440 to college? Oh goodness, yeah, I mean I'm so grateful 2:07:21.680 --> 2:07:26.520 for my life in general, and but boy, not having 2:07:26.560 --> 2:07:29.840 a college education. I mean, I'm pretty well read by 2:07:29.920 --> 2:07:32.920 just being you know, a didact, but not having that 2:07:33.040 --> 2:07:37.440 credential and not you know, foreclosed a lot of things 2:07:37.520 --> 2:07:39.480 that would have been probably interesting to do. But you 2:07:39.520 --> 2:07:43.120 can't do everything in life. And I definitely grateful for 2:07:43.160 --> 2:07:45.200 the life I've had so far, and so far so good. 2:07:45.600 --> 2:07:47.360 So it worked out for me. I'm very glad my 2:07:47.440 --> 2:07:50.920 kids both graduated from college and I told them that, 2:07:51.000 --> 2:07:53.760 I said, don't the path I walked on doesn't exist anymore, 2:07:53.800 --> 2:07:55.880 so I don't even think about that. The kids you 2:07:55.880 --> 2:07:57.960 today are very smart. They know there's the haves and 2:07:58.000 --> 2:08:00.000 the have nots, and they don't want to end up 2:08:00.000 --> 2:08:04.400 one of the half. Yeah, so I um, but yeah, 2:08:04.520 --> 2:08:07.960 you know, I'm just I like doing this podcast. I 2:08:07.960 --> 2:08:11.320 I like writing. I like working with Betty Lovette on 2:08:11.400 --> 2:08:15.080 her record of Dylan songs, and with Steve and Ben 2:08:15.200 --> 2:08:16.840 Lee and you know the people I get to work with, 2:08:16.920 --> 2:08:19.720 and I'm just trying to trying to do it one 2:08:19.760 --> 2:08:21.480 day at a time as much as I as much 2:08:21.520 --> 2:08:23.600 as I can. I I'm grateful for the rock and 2:08:23.680 --> 2:08:25.720 roll business though it gave me a place in the world, 2:08:25.800 --> 2:08:28.839 and as long as I can be of use to artists. 2:08:29.320 --> 2:08:33.280 I'm quite happy with that vocation, you know. So we'll we'll, 2:08:33.360 --> 2:08:37.879 we'll see what happens next. Well, we've heard your entire journey. Obviously, 2:08:37.960 --> 2:08:41.680 there's much more depth underneath all these peaks that would 2:08:41.720 --> 2:08:44.520 be interesting, but we only have a limited period of time. Danny, 2:08:44.560 --> 2:08:46.440 thanks so much for coming and being on the podcast. 2:08:46.800 --> 2:08:49.880 So so pleased to do it with you. Until next time, 2:08:50.200 --> 2:08:53.160 it's Bob left Sets here tune in doing the Bob 2:08:53.240 --> 2:09:00.720 Left Sets podcast once again. That was then Goldberg on 2:09:00.800 --> 2:09:04.280 this week's episode of the Bob Left Sets Podcast, recorded 2:09:04.320 --> 2:09:08.160 live at the tune In Studios in Venice, California. Thanks 2:09:08.160 --> 2:09:11.520 so much for listening. Don't hesitate to email me feedback 2:09:11.800 --> 2:09:14.800 at Bob at left sets dot com. Until next time, 2:09:15.520 --> 2:09:16.600 It's Bob left Sets