1 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 1: Mother Knows Dad starring Nicole and Jemmy and Maria QK. 2 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:24,239 Speaker 2: Hi everyone, welcome to Mother Knows Death and Happy New Year. 3 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 2: Nicole is still on vacation, so today I'm going to 4 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 2: be joined by the one and only Cheryl mac McCollum 5 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:32,760 Speaker 2: to discuss all the latest true crime news. You may 6 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:35,239 Speaker 2: have heard Mac on our show before her hit podcast, 7 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:38,160 Speaker 2: Stone seven, or during one of her appearances on Crime 8 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:41,599 Speaker 2: Stories with Nancy Grace. In addition to her podcast, Mac 9 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 2: is a crime scene investigator, founder of the Cold Case 10 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:48,520 Speaker 2: Investigative Research Institute, and she has a new book called Swanstone, 11 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 2: Swim and a Sewer, Solving the cold case of the 12 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 2: Flint River Killer's daughter coming out this may please welcome 13 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 2: back to the show. Hi, Mac, Welcome to the show. 14 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 1: Girl. I'm so glad you found called me. I knew 15 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 1: you would ditch that old brawl one day. 16 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 2: I know, Lick, did you forget you had a job. 17 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 2: She's just not coming back, leaving you with all this 18 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 2: work to do. It's kind of rude. 19 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:15,400 Speaker 1: That is so rude, so rude. But you're gonna be great. 20 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 1: We're gonna have a good time, Thank you. 21 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 2: We are gonna have a good time. We have a 22 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:21,480 Speaker 2: bunch of true crime stories to cover today. First I 23 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:23,399 Speaker 2: have to ask how your trip to Paris was. It 24 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:24,480 Speaker 2: looked unbelievable. 25 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:30,480 Speaker 1: The word we all kept using was just magical. Let 26 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 1: me tell you, I had been to Paris in the spring, 27 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 1: but Christmas time is a new level. I have never 28 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:46,319 Speaker 1: just been so blown away by how gorgeous a city was. Ever. 29 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 2: That's amazing. I saw that you went to Versailles, and 30 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 2: I believe you went to the say of the heist 31 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 2: at the Loof too, So that must have been awesome. 32 00:01:55,720 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 1: That was fantastic. Yes, an interesting there's a portrait at 33 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 1: Versailles where the necklace that was stolen is being worn 34 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 1: in the portrait. 35 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:10,519 Speaker 2: Wow, that's incredible. 36 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:13,239 Speaker 1: Yeah. So there was a lot of just connection there. 37 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 1: Obviously the coronation room, so the crown that was stolen 38 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 1: but recovered because they dropped it. Yeah, you know, but 39 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:24,080 Speaker 1: just to think all of that just I mean, you 40 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 1: can't replace any of it, and you know they just 41 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 1: you know, smash and grab. I mean that's all it was. 42 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 1: It's not some complicated Oceans eleven. It was let's go 43 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:39,800 Speaker 1: in on the second story and bust the case and 44 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 1: grab them and go. 45 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 2: That's definitely not when the password to the security system 46 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:48,240 Speaker 2: is loof so I don't think that any good protection 47 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:49,079 Speaker 2: in place for. 48 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 1: That, right. But it's also one of those situations where 49 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:55,680 Speaker 1: it is so busy and so congested all the time 50 00:02:56,400 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 1: that they could easily get that ladder up there. Nobody 51 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 1: would have looked at them twice because from a tourist standpoint, 52 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 1: you don't know who belongs and who does it, and 53 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 1: you would certainly assume with some type of apparatus like 54 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 1: that and dress like construction workers that they were doing 55 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 1: a job that everybody you know was in on. You know, 56 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 1: but it was eight minutes from ground to get away. 57 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: Eight minutes, Oh definitely. 58 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:29,840 Speaker 2: I mean I went there, god probably fifteen years ago now, 59 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 2: and it was so overwhelming. As you know, you've been 60 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:34,679 Speaker 2: there in the spring and now the winter time. I 61 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 2: went in the summer. It was absolutely chaotic, and I 62 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 2: feel like as a tourist are so overwhelmed by the environment, 63 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 2: you wouldn't even think about any shady business anybody was 64 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 2: up to. 65 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 1: You would look at it twice. I mean, all of 66 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 1: us are used to construction, whether it's on the roadway 67 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 1: or some building. You don't think to go, man, that 68 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 1: doesn't look right at the loop. You would assume that 69 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 1: forty people would have to know that's going on and 70 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: have some type of understanding that there's a permit, that 71 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 1: there's the okay, that they've got cameras in security and police. 72 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, but eight minutes crazy. All right, let's start 73 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 2: off with some true crime news. So I want to 74 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 2: start off with this new claim that the Zodiac Killer 75 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 2: is now linked to the Black Dolia murder. So basically, 76 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 2: this fifty year old man, his name's Alex Baber. He 77 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:26,160 Speaker 2: owns the Cold Case Consultants. He's considered an amateur sleuth 78 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 2: and a self taught cryptog cryptography expert. You know, we're 79 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:34,279 Speaker 2: the worst with pronunciations on this show. So he decides 80 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 2: to take a look at this cipher that the Zodiac 81 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 2: Killer set a newspaper in nineteen seventy and try to 82 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 2: break the code. This cipher says my name is blank, 83 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 2: followed by thirteen symbols. So this guy has been spending 84 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 2: twenty hours a day for the past couple of months 85 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:50,599 Speaker 2: trying to decipher this note. He was initially presented with 86 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:54,839 Speaker 2: seventy one million possibilities and eventually narrowed it down to 87 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:57,479 Speaker 2: this name of this guy that was investigated for the 88 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:01,279 Speaker 2: Black Dolia murder, which is kind of and saying connection 89 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:03,160 Speaker 2: to me, But what are your thoughts on this? 90 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:06,599 Speaker 1: I'm gonna tell you straight out. I say this all 91 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 1: the time. Civilians solve cases all the time we need them. 92 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:18,360 Speaker 1: The first Zodiac puzzle was solved by a guy sitting 93 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:22,159 Speaker 1: in his dining room table. Oh yeah, okay, so it 94 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 1: can be done. It has been done, so I welcome 95 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 1: any I mean, he doesn't have to call himself an amateur. 96 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:31,679 Speaker 1: He can just say, hey, this is what I did, 97 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:34,839 Speaker 1: this is my background. I've spent twenty hours a day 98 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:39,839 Speaker 1: for all these months. Is it just unimaginable that these 99 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 1: two things are connected in a lot of ways. For 100 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:47,039 Speaker 1: me as a crime scene investigator, as a criminologist, they 101 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:49,920 Speaker 1: do not seem connected to me if you're looking at 102 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 1: the murders, So for me, I want to start there 103 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:56,839 Speaker 1: with you. Yeah, when you look at the murders, just 104 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 1: the murders. Forget the you know, the site, the puzzles, 105 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 1: the codes, forget all that for a minute. Forget taunting 106 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:07,599 Speaker 1: the police, because that does have a factor, It does 107 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:14,480 Speaker 1: have a place But for me, the majority of murders, 108 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 1: especially a serial killer like the Zodiac, clearly was your 109 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:26,680 Speaker 1: mo can change your signature, won't. So the reason for 110 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 1: you killing what you do. That's rarely. I don't know 111 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:38,160 Speaker 1: of a case where it really changes. So again, if 112 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 1: I look at the black, do you she's cutting half, 113 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:47,839 Speaker 1: her bloousband drained, she's got blows to the head, right, 114 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 1: she's put out just where somebody can easily find her 115 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 1: by the sidewalk. She's sexually assaulted. He does things to 116 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 1: her that took a lot of time. Maria. So she had, 117 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 1: you know, rode burns on her risted ankle, she had 118 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 1: a tattoo cut off, she had the blood drained. All 119 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 1: of that took a lot of time. That's real personal 120 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 1: to me. Then when you got Zodiac, he shot people, 121 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 1: He stabbed people. These are couples now in like a 122 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:25,720 Speaker 1: lover's lane. Later there was the cab driver, But I'm 123 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 1: saying for the most part, these were people parking making out. 124 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 1: He doesn't sexually assault anybody. He doesn't torture anybody. He 125 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: doesn't tie them up, he doesn't drain their blood, he 126 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 1: doesn't cut them in pieces. That doesn't sound like the 127 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 1: same person at all. 128 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 2: To me, I agree one hundred percent with you, and 129 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 2: I think he did present some compelling evidence in the 130 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 2: sense of when they're looking at this guy named Marvin Margolis, 131 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 2: he when he was investigated for the crime, he had 132 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 2: lived with Elizabeth short before she had been killed, so 133 00:07:56,920 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 2: you have that personal element to it. But really the 134 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 2: only connection is that he had been frantically or a 135 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 2: person that it was thought to be involved in the 136 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 2: murders had frantically been driving around to motels looking for 137 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 2: a bathtub, and one of those motels happened to be 138 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 2: called the Zodiac Motel, And that this person also handed 139 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 2: down a firearm to his son that had a similar 140 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 2: symbol that the Zodiac used. But I think when you 141 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 2: look at the case of Arthur Lee Allen as the 142 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 2: primary suspect, I think the evidence as much the circumstantial 143 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 2: evidence alone is much more compelling that would point to 144 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:32,079 Speaker 2: him being the Zodiac killer, not this other guy. 145 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:37,000 Speaker 1: Listen, it's hard when you're doing a case with no 146 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 1: physical evidence, which is what we have here. We don't 147 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 1: have it. We don't have a fingerprim we don't have DNA, 148 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:45,720 Speaker 1: we don't have any of that. Why did you know 149 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 1: the avenger use cement sacks. I don't know, why would 150 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 1: he leave them behind? I don't know was he in 151 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 1: that sedan? You know, it certainly seems like a crime 152 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 1: where this person had to have known her. It seems 153 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: that personal to me, it does you know, Zodiac, there's 154 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:11,200 Speaker 1: zero connection to those people, you know. But then you 155 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 1: get into the other stuff where you're like, man, how 156 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:21,680 Speaker 1: many killers taught the police through letters and phone calls? None? Hardly. 157 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 1: I mean, I think we've got Jack the Ripper, we 158 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 1: got Zodiac, we got the Black NAULI That's about it. 159 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:30,440 Speaker 1: I mean, in my forty four years, I've never had 160 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:33,959 Speaker 1: one where anybody sent us a letter where anybody called 161 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 1: us taught us. I mean, I hadn't worked it, hadn't 162 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:42,400 Speaker 1: heard it. So that certainly gets my attention. Obviously, what 163 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:45,200 Speaker 1: was written, how it was written, who it was addressed to, 164 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:50,320 Speaker 1: you know, the over posted stamp, you know, yeah, I 165 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:54,440 Speaker 1: mean I can't deny that part. But I'm saying again 166 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 1: people's motivation for killing and the reason they want to 167 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:02,680 Speaker 1: do it, have to do it almost and then the little, 168 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 1: you know, signature type things, that's paramount to me. So 169 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 1: I have to start with that. I mean, I would again, 170 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:12,720 Speaker 1: I would love some physical evidence. I would love for 171 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:15,599 Speaker 1: some fingerprint to be on one of the letters. I 172 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 1: would love for some type of handwriting to come forward, something, anything. 173 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:23,320 Speaker 1: And you know, the other thing that's interesting to me 174 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 1: is the lapse of time. If this person needed attention 175 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 1: so bad and wanted here's my moniker, I want you 176 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:36,960 Speaker 1: to call me this. And in both situations, the person 177 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:40,960 Speaker 1: named themselves. So that tells you there's some ego in it, 178 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:44,679 Speaker 1: there's some pride in it. He just goes silent for 179 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 1: two decades. That seems odd. 180 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I also agree with you about how long 181 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 2: the crime the Black Dahlia took. It was very personal. 182 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:56,440 Speaker 2: I mean, to train somebody of all their blood, carve 183 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 2: a smile into their face, I just think it's I 184 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 2: think it's the opposite. You would progress into doing more 185 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 2: ritualistic acts like that instead of just being like, I'm 186 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:07,920 Speaker 2: going to take the easy route and just shoot somebody. 187 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:13,200 Speaker 1: And here's the other thing. Most violent people, Let's say 188 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 1: they start fighting and then they graduate to stabbing, then 189 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 1: they graduate to shooting and actually murdering people. If you've 190 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 1: got somebody and the first murder, we know connected to 191 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 1: this person through their own writing and phone calls. They 192 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 1: have bisected this person, drain their blood, beat them, card 193 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 1: that joker smile, cut the tattoo off and inserted it 194 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 1: in her, sexually assaulted her. Then you downgrade you're. 195 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:50,160 Speaker 2: Less violent exactly. 196 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:53,560 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not saying shooting ain't violent. Please do 197 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 1: not send me an email saying I said that. What 198 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 1: I am saying is shooting somebody from a distance that 199 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 1: you don't know, that you don't even put your hands 200 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 1: on them. That is less than what the black doll 201 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:11,200 Speaker 1: you avenger did to his victim. And I don't see 202 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 1: anybody going backwards. Usually, once you've got that taste of blood, baby, 203 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 1: that's it, and you're gonna get more violent and more brazen. 204 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 1: Like look at Ted Bundy. Oh yeah, more violent, more brazen. 205 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 1: He went from strangling to beaten to be head. 206 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:33,680 Speaker 2: Oh absolutely. And I just think in this case, you know, 207 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 2: if you're starting off with seventy one million possibilities and 208 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:40,400 Speaker 2: you're narrowing it down, you could probably find anybody in 209 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 2: this country that's gonna fit the narrative for what you're 210 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 2: looking for. 211 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 1: Sometimes, listen, I did a case that was pretty much 212 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:53,959 Speaker 1: all circumstantial, and it's easy to start convincing yourself. Let 213 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 1: me say it this way. We all have one girlfriend 214 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:00,679 Speaker 1: that decided she was so in love with some because 215 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:06,520 Speaker 1: it was faate, right, but she was making the fate fit. Oh, 216 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 1: we met on the third day of the third month 217 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 1: at three o'clock. It's meant to be maybe, or maybe 218 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 1: it was just you know that loser walked in the 219 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 1: bar at three. I mean, I don't know what to 220 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 1: tell you. So sometimes we can make things fit, you know, 221 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:27,679 Speaker 1: and you're like, oh, that's crazy. He drew some woman 222 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 1: and her name was Elizabeth. That has to be the 223 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 1: black Naulia. 224 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 2: Not necessarily no, And I was looking at it. I 225 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 2: do think, you know, he presents a good case, but 226 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 2: I don't think it quite fits. And I can't ignore 227 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 2: all of the circumstantial evidence against Arthur Lee Allen either, 228 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 2: And I guess in both cases they're technically not solved, 229 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 2: so it's hard to say, and they're decades old, so 230 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 2: we'll probably never know at this point. But you never 231 00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 2: know what new technology, what they can. 232 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 1: Pay, and you know, well, God loving for tron I 233 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 1: mean twenty hours a day for three months on something 234 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:08,200 Speaker 1: you're not getting paid to do this sitting what you're 235 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 1: doing for a living, nobody is supporting you to do it. 236 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:15,679 Speaker 1: I appreciate all of it. And who knows, there may 237 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 1: be one more thing that's gonna make this whole, you know, 238 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 1: house of cards fall. He may be closer than we've 239 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 1: ever seen. But I'm just saying, if you start with 240 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 1: the murders themselves, I don't see it. 241 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 2: Oh, definitely, all right. So, speaking of another unusual cold case, 242 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 2: I wanted to talk about the disappearance of this candy heiress, 243 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 2: Helen Brock, who went missing forty nine years ago this February. 244 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 2: So in the fifties, Helen had married Frank Brock, who 245 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 2: was the heir to the Brock candy fortune, and they 246 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 2: were together until Frank's death in nineteen seventy. So fast 247 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:50,720 Speaker 2: forward seven years. Then, sixty five year old Helen reportedly 248 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 2: went to a doctor's appointment in Minnesota, got into a taxi, 249 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 2: went to the airport, flew home to Chicago, her housekeeper 250 00:14:57,200 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 2: saying he picked her up from the airport, she spent 251 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 2: several days at and then he dropped her back off 252 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 2: at the airport so she could go to her condo 253 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 2: in Florida, but she never got to Florida, and her 254 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 2: friends are saying every time they called the house, the 255 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 2: housekeeper was being extremely shady. 256 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 1: Yeah. So this is a woman that capt a real 257 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 1: tight circle. Yeah. 258 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 2: Right. 259 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 1: So she didn't have fifteen people in her house. She 260 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 1: didn't have housekeepers and gardeners and pool people that were 261 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 1: there every day. She basically had one person that she 262 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 1: relied on with all of her things. You know. The 263 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 1: first thing that kind of stuck out for me is 264 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 1: not only did he give different stories to every called, 265 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 1: he failed a couple of polygraphs. That's a little concerning, yes, right, So, 266 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 1: I mean I would love to really know more about 267 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 1: why would she go to another state to a doctor 268 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 1: and what kind of doctor? Was that just part of 269 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:57,200 Speaker 1: her I'm eccentric or was that the best doctor in 270 00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:00,120 Speaker 1: the country at the time? What would she go? And 271 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 1: four and then Florida? Did he not travel with her? 272 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 1: Did he not help her set that house up? And 273 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 1: I don't see her as the kind of person that's 274 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:13,840 Speaker 1: gonna do a lot of things alone. I feel like 275 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 1: she's that kind of person that coffee's brought to her. 276 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 2: Oh definitely, her. 277 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 1: Going and making it, so again, I don't see her 278 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 1: taking off to Milwaukee and then Florida all by herself. 279 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 2: I agree with you too, because I believe I was 280 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 2: reading that at the time of her disappearance her net 281 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 2: worth was around forty million dollars, which, if you think 282 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 2: for the seventies, is astronomical. I didn't even do the conversion, 283 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 2: but I can't imagine. But I agree with you. Wealthy 284 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:43,560 Speaker 2: people of this caliber tend to not do anything alone. 285 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 2: They always have a companion, whether it's a friend or 286 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 2: like in this guy's case, somebody that had worked for 287 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 2: her for twenty years, right, But then you start looking 288 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:55,280 Speaker 2: into him being shady, and then her brother gets involved 289 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 2: as well, and oh, by the way, he's set to 290 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 2: get five hundred thousand dollars in hedance if something were 291 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 2: to happen to her. And then all of a sudden 292 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:06,600 Speaker 2: you find out that the housekeeper's buying a meat grinder 293 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 2: and deep cleaning the mansion in her car, and the 294 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 2: brothers burning journals that she wrote, saying that she would 295 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 2: be embarrassed if people found them. I don't think you're 296 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 2: going to those great lengths of your sister's missing. 297 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 1: Well, the meat grinder alone should stop people in their trust. 298 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:22,880 Speaker 2: Next. 299 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:25,879 Speaker 1: I mean, if you want to get rid of somebody, 300 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:27,640 Speaker 1: that's one way to do it. 301 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, And it sucks because this lady sounded kind 302 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 2: of cool there said she was known for her luxury 303 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:36,640 Speaker 2: cars that were pink and purple to mimic the candy colors. 304 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 2: I love to hear that. But the unfortunate part of 305 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 2: the story was her body's never been found. She ended 306 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:46,159 Speaker 2: up being legally declared dead in nineteen eighty four, and 307 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 2: then only for these people to still get money from 308 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 2: her and nobody be arrested for her debt. And we 309 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:54,080 Speaker 2: really don't know what happened. 310 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 1: And here's the crazy thing. When you look at people 311 00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 1: that are worth that amount of money, who can they trust? Yeah? Right, So, 312 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:05,960 Speaker 1: like I had one friend from high school that has 313 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 1: done very very well, super famous, I don't know that 314 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 1: she can trust five people that she didn't know before 315 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:18,440 Speaker 1: that happened. It seems like every single person wants something 316 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 1: from her. Does that make sense? Like, whether it's the 317 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 1: accountant or the lawyer or the new neighbors in the 318 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:31,200 Speaker 1: new fancy neighborhoods, everybody wants something from her. So if 319 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 1: you didn't know them prior to you coming into fame 320 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:37,959 Speaker 1: and fortune. I think that would be one of those things. 321 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:40,840 Speaker 1: You know, you don't let a lot of people in 322 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:43,399 Speaker 1: because they're not there for the right reason. So you 323 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:45,960 Speaker 1: would almost think this man that's been with her for 324 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:50,639 Speaker 1: twenty years, especially after her husband's death. But here's the reality, 325 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:54,400 Speaker 1: what does that do to motive? That kind of accelerates. 326 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:58,360 Speaker 1: Hey wait a minute, now that he's deceased, I'm one 327 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:02,360 Speaker 1: death away from coming into money. Oh yeah. 328 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:05,639 Speaker 2: I mean, my family's irritated with me talking about this 329 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 2: all the time, but I'm in my gilded age phase 330 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:10,920 Speaker 2: right now. So I just read a book about the 331 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 2: Vanderbilt families and the Astor families from that time, sure, 332 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:17,160 Speaker 2: and what I've pulled from it is that having wealth 333 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:19,280 Speaker 2: of that caliber. Of course, people are like poor them 334 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:22,880 Speaker 2: for being billionaires at the time, but it's a very 335 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:26,159 Speaker 2: lonely life and you can't trust people. And something that 336 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 2: stuck out in the Vanderbilt book in particular for me, 337 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:31,719 Speaker 2: was that Gloria Vanderbilt, you know, had been kidnapped as 338 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 2: a child and it was a very sensitive topic to her, 339 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 2: and one of her closest friends ended up taking the 340 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:39,400 Speaker 2: role of her nanny in a movie later in her life, 341 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:42,360 Speaker 2: and that completely broke her trust. And to just think 342 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:45,159 Speaker 2: your closest friend can even not play you in a 343 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 2: fictional depiction of your biggest trauma in your life. It's 344 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:51,280 Speaker 2: so heartbreaking and upsetting. 345 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:54,879 Speaker 1: It is heartbreaking because again, she didn't have that many 346 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 1: close friends to start with, exactly because again, of course, 347 00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 1: everybody wants to go to her birthday powardy because she's 348 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:04,920 Speaker 1: gonna have ponies and balloon rides and you know, fancy 349 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:08,160 Speaker 1: gifts that they give the guests that come. But that's 350 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:10,120 Speaker 1: not a real friend, you. 351 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:13,680 Speaker 2: Know, No, definitely. So another interesting part of this case 352 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:16,199 Speaker 2: that I saw in the article was that in nineteen 353 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:18,959 Speaker 2: ninety they did exume a body that they thought was hers, 354 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 2: but they later determined it not to be. So of course, 355 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:24,200 Speaker 2: her body's never been found, but she has a grave 356 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 2: site next to her husband. But this is just another 357 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:29,879 Speaker 2: one of those cases we're just never gonna really know 358 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:32,680 Speaker 2: what happened, even though we could assume with the meat grinder, 359 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:34,480 Speaker 2: this guy's pretty guilty. 360 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:38,160 Speaker 1: I mean, I wish that's something they had, if they could, 361 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:39,879 Speaker 1: you know, get a hold of that thing, because there 362 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 1: ain't no way to clean that if it was used 363 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:45,399 Speaker 1: to dispose of a human body, so that would be 364 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 1: a great source of DNA. Let's say, but again, how 365 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 1: do you get somebody out of a mansion? Well, if 366 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:54,719 Speaker 1: you've got a meat grinder, I mean, that's an easy 367 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 1: get little bitty sacks at a time. Nobody's gonna look 368 00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:00,359 Speaker 1: at that. The trash man ain't gonna pay attention. I mean, 369 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 1: that's easy. That's not like a body having to be 370 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:05,320 Speaker 1: rolled up in a rug, you know. 371 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:08,400 Speaker 2: No, we talked about that a lot with Brian Walsh too, 372 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:10,920 Speaker 2: because it's just like, you know, this case, this guy 373 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 2: is just such an idiot, probably the worst killer ever, 374 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 2: but somehow lucked out that they never found her. 375 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 1: When you look at what he managed to do wrong, 376 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:27,400 Speaker 1: it's mind boggling. I mean it's almost like has he 377 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 1: never watched a crime movie ever? Has he never listened 378 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:34,200 Speaker 1: to one podcast? Does he not even have common sense? 379 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 1: I mean, this man honestly thought, Hey, I'm such a 380 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 1: you know, crime genius. I'm just gonna pay cash. But 381 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:44,840 Speaker 1: there's a video there, and a video there in a 382 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 1: video watch. 383 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:49,320 Speaker 2: Or just even admitting she did die but it was 384 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:51,920 Speaker 2: naturally And I freaked out Okay, well, boom, I could 385 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 2: even understand dumping a body if you're freaking out, but 386 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 2: to go the great lengths to dismember somebody and dump 387 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:03,159 Speaker 2: their part set friend's sites, Okay, we all totally believe 388 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:05,479 Speaker 2: that's what happened, right right right? 389 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:07,720 Speaker 1: Well, you know, I mean, she died in the bed, 390 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:09,920 Speaker 1: and I just knew y'all weren't gonna believe that happened, 391 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 1: so I'm gonna make it a thousand times worse than 392 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:14,440 Speaker 1: it ever would have been. 393 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, and then I feel like there was We just 394 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:18,960 Speaker 2: wrote it up for the website a couple of weeks ago, 395 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 2: and there were so many dumb Google searches that I 396 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:25,800 Speaker 2: made a whole separate PDF because for our subscribers, I 397 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:28,200 Speaker 2: was like, you guys really just don't understand how much 398 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:29,679 Speaker 2: of an idiot this guy was. 399 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:33,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, ridiculous. I mean, he's sitting in prison like most 400 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:36,280 Speaker 1: people are probably like, oh man, I got called because 401 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 1: I made one mistake. Every single thing he did was 402 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:41,360 Speaker 1: a mistake everything. 403 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, But luckily in that case, they had enough to 404 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 2: put him away, because if he got away with that, 405 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 2: that was gonna be absolutely ridiculous. 406 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean there needed to be some type 407 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:54,440 Speaker 1: of public reaction to that if that had occurred. 408 00:22:54,920 --> 00:23:05,360 Speaker 2: Oh, of course, this episode is brought to you by 409 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 2: the Grossroom guys. In the last couple of weeks, we 410 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 2: covered the Brian Walls trial and how absolutely insane that 411 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:13,399 Speaker 2: case is. You wouldn't believe how dumb this guy is, 412 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:16,199 Speaker 2: considering he almost got away with it and his wife's 413 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:18,120 Speaker 2: body was never found, So you're gonna want to check 414 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:20,840 Speaker 2: that out. Also, we are returning with YouTube Live this 415 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 2: Friday's normal scheduled programming, so we can't wait to see everybody. 416 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:27,159 Speaker 2: Head over to the grossroom dot com now to sign up. 417 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 2: All right, So, a couple of weeks ago, Alec Baldwin 418 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 2: went on a podcast and explained how he's still struggling 419 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 2: with trauma after he accidentally shot and killed cinematographer Helena 420 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:40,919 Speaker 2: Hutchins on the set of Rust. What are your thoughts 421 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:41,639 Speaker 2: on this case? 422 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 1: You know, for all the things that people say that 423 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:49,679 Speaker 1: he is, I mean, we've all heard the voicemail. He 424 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:52,440 Speaker 1: loved his daughter and that sort of thing, and maybe 425 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:55,439 Speaker 1: he's got a temper, maybe he's not the most kind person. 426 00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:59,679 Speaker 1: He's not a killer. Yeah, I don't know anything in 427 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:03,920 Speaker 1: his bad background where he was ever physically abusive verbally. 428 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 1: I mean again, we heard the voicemail, but he's not that. 429 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:16,240 Speaker 1: And I think for him, the realization that his action, 430 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 1: whether it was on purpose or intentional, he took a life, 431 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 1: and he took the life of somebody he knew it 432 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:30,360 Speaker 1: doesn't surprise me at all. He's not doing well because 433 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:34,960 Speaker 1: it affected every single aspect of his life. Think about 434 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,919 Speaker 1: the people that wanted to be next to him, and 435 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 1: then that happened, and the phone call stopped. Your fake 436 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:46,560 Speaker 1: friends go away immediately, and some of those are probably 437 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:51,680 Speaker 1: people he thought were his friends. And then you know, 438 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,480 Speaker 1: the career took a hit. He's going to be sued, 439 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 1: is going to be this whole public opinion. He's now 440 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:01,880 Speaker 1: when the paper day, he's a line every day. He's 441 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 1: now on meme. He's gonna be charged. Is he actually 442 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:10,919 Speaker 1: gonna do time? Yeah? I mean stress can kill you, 443 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:14,880 Speaker 1: you know that. Oh yeah, I'm sure that what he's 444 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:19,919 Speaker 1: had to live with was I mean, how do you 445 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 1: even do that? You know? 446 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 3: I don't know. 447 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 2: I guess I've been pretty critical of the situation. I 448 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 2: agree with you one hundred percent. I don't think he 449 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 2: intentionally went to work that day, say I'm gonna kill somebody. Sure, 450 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 2: But I guess a lot of my criticism comes from 451 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:39,160 Speaker 2: a I guess I'll start with just what was going 452 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:43,240 Speaker 2: on on set, So just him refusing to take any 453 00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:46,640 Speaker 2: responsibility for being a producer and having some responsibility over 454 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 2: the safety on that set. They just had that walk 455 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:52,040 Speaker 2: out that morning. Obviously he didn't load the firearm, but 456 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:55,040 Speaker 2: they also didn't take the proper steps as they should 457 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:57,200 Speaker 2: have for that. And I feel like I started having 458 00:25:57,240 --> 00:25:59,159 Speaker 2: a little more sympathy for him after I went to 459 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:03,720 Speaker 2: the RUSS session at Crime Con in Nashville, because the 460 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 2: firearms expert had explained how sometimes with revolvers like that 461 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:10,560 Speaker 2: they could go off a little easier than a regular gun. 462 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 2: If he didn't have good trigger discipline and his finger 463 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:15,639 Speaker 2: was in there and he even pulled back the hammer, 464 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:18,399 Speaker 2: it could have just set it off that easily. So 465 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 2: I feel like when I had a better understanding of 466 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:23,879 Speaker 2: it like that, I felt I definitely started having more 467 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 2: sympathy for the fact. But I guess part B of 468 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 2: this where a lot of my criticism comes in, is 469 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 2: I think, if this happened to somebody, maybe you should 470 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 2: step back from the limelight for a little bit, instead 471 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 2: of then having a reality show on TLC two years 472 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:40,440 Speaker 2: later and showing off your house. 473 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:43,200 Speaker 1: And they have to now there is that. Yeah, Okay, 474 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:47,240 Speaker 1: let me be really clear. I thought you were literally 475 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:50,480 Speaker 1: just asking about the stress of it. Yeah, and that's 476 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:55,160 Speaker 1: all I was thinking. Oh yeah, I was super critical 477 00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:01,359 Speaker 1: when all this first happened. Number one, I mean gun 478 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:05,040 Speaker 1: safety one oh one. You don't point a gun in 479 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:10,680 Speaker 1: another person. That's one. Two. We are told there's no 480 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:13,879 Speaker 1: such thing as an unloaded gun. That's what we're told. 481 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:19,879 Speaker 1: The other thing for me is if you were not 482 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 1: part of the safety like you weren't the armory, you know, 483 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 1: person in charge, you weren't the firearms expert on set, 484 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,880 Speaker 1: it's still your job to have them there. And it's 485 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:39,919 Speaker 1: just like whether you're driving a car, you know, through fire. 486 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:42,480 Speaker 1: I mean to me, it seems like you would know 487 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:47,240 Speaker 1: has everything been done, is everything good to go, all 488 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,879 Speaker 1: the safety precautions, all the checklists. Well, he didn't do that. 489 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:55,280 Speaker 1: Clearly he didn't do it. Because with a revolver, you 490 00:27:55,359 --> 00:28:00,159 Speaker 1: can see whether it's loading yes, so easily, so easily, 491 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 1: So he didn't do that. He did have his finger 492 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,560 Speaker 1: on the trigger, he'd pulled the trigger after aiming it 493 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:12,720 Speaker 1: toward that woman, so his action did cause her dead. 494 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:18,119 Speaker 1: Period Again, regardless of his intention, there were mistakes made 495 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:24,520 Speaker 1: to me having live rounds and the blanks next to 496 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:29,080 Speaker 1: each other. Who would do that? And I don't understand 497 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:31,359 Speaker 1: having a live round. I'm just gonna tell you, I 498 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 1: don't understand that at all on set. I don't understand 499 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:41,320 Speaker 1: having live ammunition on the set with a budget actors 500 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:42,280 Speaker 1: for what. 501 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:45,960 Speaker 2: I cannot believe that happened. I worked on a movie 502 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 2: almost ten years ago in the costume department, and considering 503 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,960 Speaker 2: how up our assets they were just about clothing, I 504 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 2: cannot even believe that this was allowed to happen. I mean, clearly, 505 00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:00,240 Speaker 2: the armorer was extremely sloppy. There's also questions of about 506 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:04,400 Speaker 2: the supplier of the fake AMMO is so irresponsible on 507 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:08,760 Speaker 2: every single level. But I'm thinking, like, I have a 508 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 2: producer breathing down my neck about bringing a boxing robe 509 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 2: to set, and this guy's a producer on this movie 510 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 2: with firearms, and they're not even being serious about it 511 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 2: at all. 512 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,320 Speaker 1: And I understand there's tons of down time. I understand 513 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:25,280 Speaker 1: y'all want to have some fun, but even I heard 514 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 1: they were, you know, shooting bottles or whatever, like taking 515 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,760 Speaker 1: target practice, so they all knew there were live rounds. 516 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:36,840 Speaker 1: Everybody knew it. Well, that's insane to me. Somebody should 517 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,480 Speaker 1: have stepped forward and said, wait a minute, y'all, we 518 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:44,120 Speaker 1: actually have live rounds here for what. And to your 519 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 1: point about the wardrobe, there's all kind of rules about dogs, 520 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:51,440 Speaker 1: like you've got to have certain brakes and enough water 521 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:53,800 Speaker 1: and none of them can get hurt. And now they 522 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:56,760 Speaker 1: put that thing. You know, no animals were hurt making 523 00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 1: this movie. Well, now you've got this woman shot and 524 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 1: keeled behind a camera over something that should have never 525 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:06,080 Speaker 1: been on set. 526 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 2: In my opinion, oh one hundred percent. And as far 527 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 2: as his mental health struggle, I completely see how he's 528 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,600 Speaker 2: struggling and everything. I just feel like he's open to 529 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:19,560 Speaker 2: criticism because you're you and your wife are all over 530 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 2: television and social media flaunting your lifestyle around and they 531 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,880 Speaker 2: have every right to live their life, right, But you're 532 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:29,480 Speaker 2: gonna be open to criticism when you couldn't even take 533 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,520 Speaker 2: six months back behind the scenes to try to process 534 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 2: what happened to you and just try to not have 535 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 2: your face all over the news. 536 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 1: I think it'd be difficult for her husband and child 537 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:40,680 Speaker 1: to watch that child. 538 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 2: Exactly. I don't think it's fair for her family to 539 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 2: have to see that. And obviously we see in many 540 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:50,240 Speaker 2: cases nothing happens to these high powerful people when these 541 00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:53,640 Speaker 2: things happen. But I mean, so this lady just gets 542 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 2: no justice because it was negligence. And I'm not even 543 00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 2: saying him in particular. I know the armorer had gone 544 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 2: to jail, but I think she's already out. It wasn't 545 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:05,720 Speaker 2: very long. A person is dead, a child doesn't have 546 00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:08,320 Speaker 2: his mother. It's terrible. 547 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:12,400 Speaker 1: No, it's terrible. And again, if you can make me 548 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 1: believe that I'm watching the Titanic sink, certainly you've got 549 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:20,800 Speaker 1: enough talent to make me believe somebody just got shot 550 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:22,400 Speaker 1: without shooting them. 551 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:25,360 Speaker 2: Oh. I don't even understand why they can't figure it 552 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:27,680 Speaker 2: out with CGI today. I mean, I just watched all 553 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:30,400 Speaker 2: the Stranger Things, and they figured it all. They figured 554 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:33,800 Speaker 2: out to make an entire alternate universe. They can figure 555 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:35,920 Speaker 2: out how to make a gunshot go off. 556 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 1: That's right, absolutely all right. 557 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:41,480 Speaker 2: So I want to wrap up with this interview by 558 00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:44,880 Speaker 2: Brian Coberger's sister. I don't know if you've seen this yet. 559 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:49,880 Speaker 1: I have not seen it, but hit me, let's talk about. 560 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,400 Speaker 2: It, all right. So the family really hasn't spoken at 561 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,920 Speaker 2: all since this happened, but now his sister mel is 562 00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:58,000 Speaker 2: talking about what it was like when he was arrested. 563 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 2: So it's kind of insane. She's saying, when she first 564 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:03,320 Speaker 2: heard about the crimes, she went as far to text 565 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,400 Speaker 2: him to be careful and was worried about him not 566 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:08,920 Speaker 2: being safe because he wasn't the type of person to 567 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 2: lock his door. And of course he assured her he 568 00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:14,959 Speaker 2: was safe because they didn't know he was the person 569 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 2: that did it. So then all of a sudden, the 570 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:21,720 Speaker 2: next month, their other sister calls her and says, yeah, 571 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:24,360 Speaker 2: the police just raided the house and he's been arrested. 572 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:28,600 Speaker 2: I can't even imagine going through this and having it 573 00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:31,480 Speaker 2: be my brother who I they couldn't have thought he 574 00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:33,680 Speaker 2: was one hundred percent normal. I mean, let's be honest, 575 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:36,120 Speaker 2: but not ye think it's her family member. 576 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there's already been some statements where the 577 00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:44,840 Speaker 1: family knew of certain situations, right, they knew the drug used, 578 00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 1: they knew he was unusual, right, I mean, this is 579 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:53,400 Speaker 1: a grown man that has had no significant other. Ever, 580 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:59,640 Speaker 1: that's unusual, and usually there's reasons for that that are 581 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:03,560 Speaker 1: not of your own doing. Right, So they knew how 582 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:05,640 Speaker 1: I think that he was odd. They knew that he 583 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:11,240 Speaker 1: probably said things. And you know, I've said a lot 584 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:15,720 Speaker 1: that you know, for people, what they sometimes tend to 585 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:20,440 Speaker 1: do for a living is because that's what they're fascinated with. 586 00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 1: So if you look at somebody that works third shift 587 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:28,640 Speaker 1: of a morgue, not everybody, Please don't email me about 588 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:33,600 Speaker 1: your uncle, earl. But if you are into necrophilia, that's 589 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 1: a good gig. Yes, it's going to give you a access. 590 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:41,720 Speaker 1: If you are a child molester, I'm all Sanna, the 591 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 1: kids are coming to you, Okay. So I'm saying if 592 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:49,960 Speaker 1: you look at what he did, he studied crime. Well 593 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:53,880 Speaker 1: for him, think about what class was like. Listen to 594 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:57,240 Speaker 1: all these different professors, reading all the different books, studying 595 00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 1: all the cases that was pouring to him. Literally, I mean, 596 00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 1: he couldn't get enough of it. So when you think 597 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:08,239 Speaker 1: of an undergraduate and then a masters and now he's 598 00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:12,399 Speaker 1: in this PhD program, he got to think twenty four 599 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:16,000 Speaker 1: hours a day on the thing that fascinated him the most. 600 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:19,839 Speaker 1: So you've got to look at that, and you've got 601 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:23,000 Speaker 1: to look at what he did with it. Now the 602 00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 1: good thing for us, And people have asked me a 603 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:29,200 Speaker 1: thousand times, don't you think there's more bodies? Don't you 604 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:32,920 Speaker 1: think he's killed you know, twenty people? No, I do not, 605 00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:36,319 Speaker 1: And let me tell you why he ain't no good 606 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:43,320 Speaker 1: at it now. Sadly, he was successful in killing four 607 00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:47,200 Speaker 1: innocent people his first time out. But I want to 608 00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:52,200 Speaker 1: back up before the murders. He used his own phone, 609 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:58,560 Speaker 1: his own car, his own area. His car is caught 610 00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:04,360 Speaker 1: on camera. What thirteen times he got a traffic ticket 611 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:08,240 Speaker 1: in the area after midnight for not wearing a seat belt. 612 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:10,800 Speaker 1: I ain't tell you why the seat belt wasn't on him, 613 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:12,960 Speaker 1: because he was getting in and out of the car, 614 00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:17,080 Speaker 1: stalking him and he just didn't re engage it because 615 00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:20,799 Speaker 1: that's what he was doing. He was single focused on 616 00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:24,000 Speaker 1: looking in that window, and I think he parked up top, 617 00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:27,600 Speaker 1: walked down where that second level he could see in. 618 00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:31,040 Speaker 1: If you look at how we entered that home, what 619 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:34,520 Speaker 1: did he do first, Maria? He went to the third floor. 620 00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:39,880 Speaker 1: That was his target period. Oh the other two sadly, 621 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:43,680 Speaker 1: sadly were you know, like collateral damage. 622 00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:49,080 Speaker 2: It's just so unfortunate. And I think the greater point 623 00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:52,520 Speaker 2: the sisters trying to make in this article is talking 624 00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:56,319 Speaker 2: about the harassment they've faced as being related to him 625 00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:59,760 Speaker 2: really not having any understanding that he could do something 626 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:03,239 Speaker 2: like this. And I think she made a good point 627 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:06,719 Speaker 2: that you know, if they had, if she even suspected 628 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:09,120 Speaker 2: it was him, she would have turned him in, which 629 00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:12,000 Speaker 2: I think a lot of family members wouldn't do in 630 00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,080 Speaker 2: a lot of these cases. And talking about how you know, 631 00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:18,560 Speaker 2: their mother has the victim's birthdays on a calendar and 632 00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:20,839 Speaker 2: praise for them every single day and thinks of them 633 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:24,000 Speaker 2: every single day, but they're still facing the hardship of 634 00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:27,880 Speaker 2: separating this relative they had and loved in their house 635 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:32,799 Speaker 2: from this psychotic killer. And I never really thought about that. 636 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:35,160 Speaker 2: I just thought if you found out your family member 637 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:37,680 Speaker 2: acted that way, you would immediately just also think of 638 00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:41,919 Speaker 2: them as a monster, not have trouble differentiating between the two. 639 00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:46,880 Speaker 1: You know, it's one of those deals. For me, I 640 00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:52,280 Speaker 1: believed when he made the deal it was to protect 641 00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:59,640 Speaker 1: his family, meaning they knew something at some point. You're 642 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:04,920 Speaker 1: talking about a grown man whose dad flew out to 643 00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:08,239 Speaker 1: drive back home with him in the middle of what 644 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:13,480 Speaker 1: would have been a semester for what. Yeah, I mean seriously, 645 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:19,160 Speaker 1: how many grown men in a PhD program get their 646 00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:21,319 Speaker 1: dad to fly out to drive home with them. 647 00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:24,040 Speaker 2: No, it's unusual, and we can't ignore his history of 648 00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:25,080 Speaker 2: his addiction issues. 649 00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:31,960 Speaker 1: That's right. So it's not just addiction. He's weird. Yes, Okay, 650 00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:37,319 Speaker 1: and listen, I'm not saying anything about unusual people. But 651 00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:41,839 Speaker 1: when somebody has that, Look, when somebody cannot connect. They 652 00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:46,560 Speaker 1: have no friends, they have no lovers, they have no 653 00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:52,399 Speaker 1: significant other, they have no best friend. There's something going 654 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:57,320 Speaker 1: on with that person. And his family knows it. They've 655 00:37:57,400 --> 00:37:58,440 Speaker 1: known for a while. 656 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:04,080 Speaker 2: Absolutely, and I think mentally, maybe even if it crossed 657 00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:06,799 Speaker 2: their mind mentally, maybe you're like, I just can't go 658 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,760 Speaker 2: there that it's him, right, it's right in the area. 659 00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:13,960 Speaker 2: The car matches the description, the perpetrator matches the description. 660 00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,040 Speaker 2: But I just can't mentally go there. And I don't 661 00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:19,400 Speaker 2: want to turn my life upside down if I don't 662 00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,480 Speaker 2: have to. But some people have to be heroes and 663 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:25,160 Speaker 2: turn their relatives in. And I think it's cool that 664 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:27,640 Speaker 2: she pointed out that if she even thought for a 665 00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:30,160 Speaker 2: second it was him, she definitely would have said something. 666 00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:34,120 Speaker 2: But I do feel bad about the harassment at the beginning, 667 00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:36,719 Speaker 2: because she was talking about how she had just got 668 00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:38,920 Speaker 2: this new job as a mental health therapist at a 669 00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:42,319 Speaker 2: place and the facility was being bombarded with so many 670 00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:45,000 Speaker 2: phone calls by the public and the press that she 671 00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:46,200 Speaker 2: had to quit her job. 672 00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:51,360 Speaker 1: And their name is odd, it's unusual. So it's not 673 00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:54,440 Speaker 1: like Smith, No, you can just move to Montana and 674 00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:59,840 Speaker 1: nobody knows. I mean, Coburger that's going to stick out sadly. 675 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:03,279 Speaker 1: But here's the thing. That's the thing about these crimes. 676 00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:09,399 Speaker 1: You know, the ripple effect. Every teacher he had, every professor, 677 00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:15,240 Speaker 1: everybody that he graded their paper. It affects every person. 678 00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:18,800 Speaker 1: Of course, it's going to affect his family. And I'm 679 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:21,439 Speaker 1: not suggested in any way that they should have gone 680 00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:24,719 Speaker 1: from Hey, he's pretty odd. He doesn't have any real 681 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:27,960 Speaker 1: close relationships. He talks about crime all the time. He 682 00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:31,719 Speaker 1: talks about BTK and Ted Bundy. But that's what he's studying, 683 00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:36,560 Speaker 1: so he should to He probably committed these murders. What 684 00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:40,479 Speaker 1: I am saying is whatever conversation he and his dad 685 00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:46,279 Speaker 1: had about driving back home, him cleaning his car, like 686 00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:49,480 Speaker 1: gets God tray's evidence in it, him taking the trash 687 00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:56,560 Speaker 1: out with gloves, you know, like your mom knows you. Yeah, 688 00:39:56,840 --> 00:40:00,520 Speaker 1: if you call your mom on the phone the way 689 00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:06,520 Speaker 1: you say hello, she knows something wrong immediately immediately. I 690 00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:11,640 Speaker 1: guarantee you he don't take the trash out. I guarantee you, 691 00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:15,879 Speaker 1: he don't clean his car like that. So they had 692 00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:21,560 Speaker 1: to think, what is going on because he's a PhD 693 00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:27,000 Speaker 1: level criminologist. These four students have just been murdered, and 694 00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:31,120 Speaker 1: it's your sister calling you, not you calling her. Going man, 695 00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:33,800 Speaker 1: the crime of the centuries just happened in my lap. 696 00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:38,800 Speaker 1: I'm gonna study this. You're not studying it. You're not interested. 697 00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:42,120 Speaker 1: And that's all you've talked about for a decade, or 698 00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:45,520 Speaker 1: serial killers. All you can talk about is doctor Catherine 699 00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:48,360 Speaker 1: Ramsling and now you're radio silent. 700 00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:53,360 Speaker 2: That is unusual, And I mean just the thought of 701 00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:57,280 Speaker 2: somebody throwing trash out wearing gloves, it's just really weird 702 00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:00,680 Speaker 2: to see in general. Especially she was pinny this portrait 703 00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:02,920 Speaker 2: of that Christmas time. They were eating cookies, they were 704 00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:05,360 Speaker 2: playing games. It seems like they were all really close. 705 00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:07,680 Speaker 2: So yeah, I guess the more you think of it, 706 00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:10,359 Speaker 2: it's like, how did they not notice he was off? 707 00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:16,719 Speaker 1: Here's the thing. I don't think you would even be 708 00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:21,000 Speaker 1: able to allow yourself to go there, But I think 709 00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:27,200 Speaker 1: enough would have been concerning. Yeah, I really do. And 710 00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:32,880 Speaker 1: I think the four of them talking, you know again, 711 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:38,719 Speaker 1: why is he coming home? Why? Why does he need 712 00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:41,720 Speaker 1: his dad? Why are the police stopping them every thirty 713 00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:45,000 Speaker 1: minutes on the highway? Why is he scrubbing that car? 714 00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:48,440 Speaker 1: Why is he hiding stuff? And hows he on his 715 00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:49,480 Speaker 1: phone constantly? 716 00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:52,160 Speaker 2: It is very weird as a thirty year old person 717 00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:54,919 Speaker 2: to have your parent fly to drive all the way 718 00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:57,120 Speaker 2: back with you. Why couldn't he have flown back? Why 719 00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:00,120 Speaker 2: couldn't he drive by himself? I'm sure he made there 720 00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:05,759 Speaker 2: back home many other times, exactly. Definitely really weird, I mean, 721 00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:08,440 Speaker 2: and to your point with the comparison with my mom, Look, 722 00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:10,520 Speaker 2: when I even called her to tell her I was pregnant, 723 00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:11,880 Speaker 2: she knew before I said. 724 00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:17,560 Speaker 1: I just said she had the minute she had to know. Sure, yeah, sure, 725 00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:22,799 Speaker 1: And you look beautiful, you look so happy. Oh my gosh, 726 00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:25,880 Speaker 1: And let me tell you that little man, oh man, 727 00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:30,160 Speaker 1: your sisters and your mama and your grandmama. I mean, 728 00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:32,000 Speaker 1: he he don't even know what he's in for. 729 00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:35,759 Speaker 2: I have to tell the listeners that I loved the 730 00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:38,120 Speaker 2: idea you pitched for Crime cod Weekend, which was I 731 00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:40,520 Speaker 2: give birth on stage of my mom marry It's the 732 00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:41,480 Speaker 2: old experience. 733 00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:44,640 Speaker 1: Is that not solid gold? People? I mean if that 734 00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:50,359 Speaker 1: don't happen, I mean, your mom would be fittest. Here's 735 00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:51,840 Speaker 1: what's happening right now. 736 00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:55,280 Speaker 2: It would be definitely, I said, when. 737 00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:57,120 Speaker 1: I get a VIP session, I. 738 00:42:57,080 --> 00:42:58,959 Speaker 2: Said, what I've given birth, She's going to be trying 739 00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:03,160 Speaker 2: to take pictures and that no privacy at all. 740 00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:06,600 Speaker 1: She could explained, cut the cord is not hurting anybody. 741 00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:08,839 Speaker 1: She's not gonna feel it. It'd be fabulous. 742 00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:12,000 Speaker 2: Oh definitely. Well, you have a new book coming out, 743 00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:14,759 Speaker 2: so please tell us about it. I cannot wait to 744 00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:15,239 Speaker 2: read it. 745 00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:20,080 Speaker 1: Well, now, listen, let me let me just tell y'all 746 00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:21,640 Speaker 1: I am not a writer. 747 00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:22,120 Speaker 2: Now. 748 00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:24,600 Speaker 1: I already mentioned Doctor Ramslin. You know she's got like 749 00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:27,560 Speaker 1: seventy books. I don't know how in the world this 750 00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:31,400 Speaker 1: one about did me in. But I had a case 751 00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:35,279 Speaker 1: and Maria you know it. But it was one of 752 00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:39,920 Speaker 1: the most unusual cases that I've ever worked in my 753 00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:44,239 Speaker 1: entire career, and I thought well, you know, I've just 754 00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:46,120 Speaker 1: got to tell people about it. And then I had 755 00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:48,719 Speaker 1: person after person after person say, you've got to write 756 00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:51,319 Speaker 1: a book. You got to write a book. So I 757 00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:54,359 Speaker 1: tried and guide it and it'll be out in May. 758 00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:58,880 Speaker 1: But it's called Swans Don't Swim in a Sewer, which 759 00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:01,839 Speaker 1: is something I will tell your listeners that came from 760 00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:05,759 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. So back when I was assigned through the 761 00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:10,520 Speaker 1: Crime Commission to the Major Case Division, the prosecutor assigned 762 00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:13,520 Speaker 1: to us happened to be Nancy Grace. So both of 763 00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:16,880 Speaker 1: our you know, we were both in our twenties running Atlanta, 764 00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:20,879 Speaker 1: acted like we knew what we were doing, and we 765 00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:25,240 Speaker 1: were looking for a victim of a horrific sexual assault 766 00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:28,920 Speaker 1: that was also a prostitute, and we thought, if we 767 00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:31,400 Speaker 1: do not get her to court, this guy's going to 768 00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:35,240 Speaker 1: walk free because she was the only, you know, connection 769 00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:38,160 Speaker 1: we had to all of his crimes. And so we 770 00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:40,840 Speaker 1: were going to trip house to crack house to trap 771 00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:44,200 Speaker 1: house to the cut looking for and finally this rookie 772 00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:46,560 Speaker 1: police officer he was kind of sick of being in 773 00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:49,600 Speaker 1: these areas and he said, why are we here, Like, 774 00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:52,600 Speaker 1: why in the world or we not maybe in buck 775 00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:56,399 Speaker 1: cann Or near the governor's mansion, and Nancy said, well, 776 00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:59,640 Speaker 1: swans don't swim in a sewer. Where do you think 777 00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:02,719 Speaker 1: we're going to go to be able to solve these crimes? 778 00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:05,640 Speaker 1: I mean, it's rarely going to be a preacher or 779 00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:09,520 Speaker 1: a jewelry salesman. You know. My world, I deal with 780 00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:12,920 Speaker 1: hookers and pimps and drug dealers and burglars. I mean, 781 00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:16,320 Speaker 1: that's who I work with. So that's where the title 782 00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:20,920 Speaker 1: came from. So the story is about a serial killer 783 00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:26,400 Speaker 1: whose daughter was murdered not by him, but by someone else, 784 00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:29,400 Speaker 1: and he asked for my help in solving her case. 785 00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:33,480 Speaker 2: That's so awesome. I mean, the details you've shared with 786 00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:36,520 Speaker 2: us about this case are incredible so far. I think 787 00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:39,319 Speaker 2: you're personally one of the best storytellers I've ever met. 788 00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:41,200 Speaker 2: So I think the book is going to be fabulous. 789 00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:44,200 Speaker 1: Well, I appreciate that. I hope so, Sugar, because I'll 790 00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:47,399 Speaker 1: tell you, it is a great story, and I hope 791 00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:50,080 Speaker 1: I didn't screw it up because it is a it's 792 00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:54,800 Speaker 1: a crazy case. It's crazy how Carl and I work together, 793 00:45:55,480 --> 00:46:00,520 Speaker 1: and we're unlikely partners, but sometimes I I teach at 794 00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:03,399 Speaker 1: the police academy. One thing I tell them is go 795 00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:07,520 Speaker 1: to the source. I mean sometimes that's who you gotta 796 00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:10,160 Speaker 1: deal with. You gotta deal with somebody that was in 797 00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:12,279 Speaker 1: the klan, or somebody that was in the mall, or 798 00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:14,960 Speaker 1: somebody that was a serial killer, because they know more 799 00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:15,200 Speaker 1: than we. 800 00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:18,960 Speaker 2: So well, thank you so much. It's always a pleasure 801 00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:21,440 Speaker 2: talking to you. You're so wonderful and we hope to 802 00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:23,600 Speaker 2: see you very soon anytime. 803 00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:24,919 Speaker 1: And congratulates us again. 804 00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:31,719 Speaker 3: Huh, thank you, thank you for listening to mother nos death. 805 00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:36,200 Speaker 3: As a reminder, my training is as a pathologists assistant. 806 00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:40,360 Speaker 3: I have a master's level education and specialize in anatomy 807 00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:44,040 Speaker 3: and pathology education. I am not a doctor and I 808 00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:47,880 Speaker 3: have not diagnosed or treated anyone dead or alive without 809 00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:53,239 Speaker 3: the assistance of a licensed medical doctor. This show, my website, 810 00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:56,760 Speaker 3: and social media accounts are designed to educate and inform 811 00:46:56,840 --> 00:47:01,040 Speaker 3: people based on my experience working in pathology, so they 812 00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:04,520 Speaker 3: can make healthier decisions regarding their life and well being. 813 00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:08,480 Speaker 3: Always remember that science is changing every day and the 814 00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:11,840 Speaker 3: opinions expressed in this episode are based on my knowledge 815 00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:15,480 Speaker 3: of those subjects at the time of publication. If you 816 00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:19,440 Speaker 3: are having a medical problem, have a medical question or 817 00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:23,880 Speaker 3: having a medical emergency. Please contact your physician or visit 818 00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:29,240 Speaker 3: an urgent care center, emergency room, or hospital. Please rate, review, 819 00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:33,680 Speaker 3: and subscribe to Mother Knows Death on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, 820 00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:36,480 Speaker 3: or anywhere you get podcasts. Thanks