1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to Ruthie's Table four, a production of iHeartRadio and 2 00:00:03,920 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: Adami's Studios. 3 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:11,320 Speaker 2: Summer in London has ripe strawberries, green grass in the 4 00:00:11,360 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 2: parks and skies that are at last blue. The city 5 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:18,920 Speaker 2: fills up with visitors, many here for Wimbledon. Last July, 6 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:21,119 Speaker 2: I went to a dinner with people well known in 7 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:26,160 Speaker 2: the world of theater, politics, movies, art and television. At 8 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 2: around ten thirty the doorbell rang and John McEnroe entered 9 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 2: the room. Everyone stopped talking. Over the years, I've witnessed 10 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 2: in the River Cafe the spell binding effect an athlete 11 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:40,920 Speaker 2: can have. None of us can do what they do, 12 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 2: and we all know it. There are many many images 13 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:46,480 Speaker 2: of John McEnroe on the tennis court, but the one 14 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:50,600 Speaker 2: that I recall is not athletic, but artistic. It's a 15 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 2: photograph of John carry in fact, almost cradling a painting 16 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:56,400 Speaker 2: by Philip Guston, who was a close friend of my 17 00:00:56,520 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 2: father and mother. It was moving to see a strong, 18 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 2: powerful athlete I admired carrying something so fragile. Today, in 19 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:08,160 Speaker 2: New York City, John has walked across Central Park from 20 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:11,160 Speaker 2: his home, and in the fading autumn light, we will 21 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 2: talk about the food we eat, the art we love, 22 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:17,639 Speaker 2: and the friendship we a tennis player and a cook 23 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 2: have begun. 24 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:21,120 Speaker 3: Really very nice intro. 25 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:25,280 Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you for coming. It'd be nice if 26 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:28,000 Speaker 2: you begin to read a recipe. 27 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:31,319 Speaker 3: I do love Italian food, so I'm gonna try it. Yeah, 28 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 3: that's my favorite food. 29 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 4: Pantala amatrianae is the dish that I'm going to read 30 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 4: to tablespoons of extra virgin olive oil, two hundred and 31 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 4: fifty grams nine ounces of pancetta, two dried red chilies, 32 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 4: Get a little spice, one red onion, two tablespoons eight 33 00:01:53,760 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 4: hundred grams of tin tomatoes, tin plum tomatoes, three hundred 34 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 4: grams of penney, one hundred grams of freshly grated pecorino pecorino. Okay, 35 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 4: heat the olive oil in a large frying pan, Add 36 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 4: the pancetta and fry until it becomes crisp. Add the chilies, onion, 37 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 4: and rosemary to the pan and sweat. 38 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 3: It's as sweat. Okay, sweat, I know what that means. 39 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:28,359 Speaker 2: It is, yes, sweat well. It means that you don't 40 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 2: want it to brown, you want it to soften. 41 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:34,240 Speaker 4: Add the tomato, stir well. Simmer for thirty minutes until 42 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 4: the sauce is very thick. Bring a large saucepan of 43 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:42,640 Speaker 4: salted water to the boil. Cook the penne until cook 44 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 4: but still firm, which is known in Italian as aldente. 45 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 4: Drain the penney and add to the sauce. Mix well, 46 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:59,920 Speaker 4: and serve with the pecorino. You know, I don't remember 47 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 4: that much about my childhood, mainly because what's happened to 48 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 4: me from eighteen to now I'm sixty three years old 49 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 4: has been so incredible in a lot of ways that 50 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 4: I'm sort of like, you know, I had a nice, 51 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:19,960 Speaker 4: okay upbringing. I had a commuter now each way from Queens, 52 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 4: New York into the city to go to high school. 53 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 4: Sports kept me, helped me get friendships because I was 54 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 4: a bit of an introvert, shy kid. 55 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:32,640 Speaker 3: I know I'm not really now, but I was then. 56 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 4: I don't have a lot of great memories in my childhood, 57 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 4: but that doesn't mean it was bad. It means that 58 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 4: there was a loving family, a mom who took care 59 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 4: of me. God wrest her soul. My dad as well, 60 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 4: that always believed in me. 61 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 2: Did your mother cook? 62 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 3: My mother did cook. 63 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 4: Here's the thing, She wouldn't allow us to leave the 64 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 4: table till everything was eaten. She grew up during the Depression, 65 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 4: so didn't have a whole lot, but she wasn't super poor, 66 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 4: but she felt that we needed to finish what was 67 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 4: on our plate. We had to have liver once a 68 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 4: week our month because we were Catholic, and we had 69 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 4: to have fish, which I hated, and liver, which was 70 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:16,479 Speaker 4: even worse. I felt like I was going to throw 71 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 4: up two younger brothers. But the good news was is 72 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 4: that I didn't know that dessert was an option until 73 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 4: I went to college because my mom would always have 74 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 4: a you know, chocolate cake with you. 75 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:31,559 Speaker 3: You have to finish this. You're a kid, You're like, really, 76 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 3: I have to finish this. 77 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 2: Do you think maybe it's because maybe she's you have 78 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 2: to finish your to finish the dessert, you have to finish. 79 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 4: So, you know, I was a bit. They used to 80 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 4: have four sizes when I grew up. There was small, medium, husky, 81 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:50,720 Speaker 4: and large. I was husky. I was a bit husky. 82 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 2: I remember husky. 83 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 4: So it dawned on me when I went to college that, oh, 84 00:04:57,400 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 4: I could sort of eat whenever I want and I 85 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 4: don't have have to eat what I don't want. 86 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 2: So were they miserable meals around the table? Did you've 87 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 2: always dread? 88 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:06,680 Speaker 3: No, I didn't have miserable meals. 89 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:10,840 Speaker 2: Great meal, but the experience because just. 90 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 4: Once once a month, you know, or once a week, 91 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:16,360 Speaker 4: it was it was tough. We didn't get the type 92 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 4: of fish and chips that you got in England. Say 93 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 4: that would have been more bearable, heavily fried with a 94 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:23,839 Speaker 4: lot of ketchup. 95 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:26,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. So did she work during the day? 96 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:28,559 Speaker 4: You know, she was a nurse, an operating room nurse 97 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 4: when I became probably around twelve. I think she retired 98 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 4: from that because she had she I had two younger brothers, 99 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 4: we had three kids. My dad was a lawyer, so 100 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 4: she sort of took care of us at home and 101 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 4: we didn't have anyone cooking for us except her. 102 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:45,919 Speaker 2: It's hard work. 103 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:47,839 Speaker 3: It is hard work, you know. 104 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 4: I wish I had been more appreciative at the times 105 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 4: get fit food. 106 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 2: Did you all do the dishes afterwards? Do you think 107 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 2: did you all have to do? 108 00:05:56,920 --> 00:05:57,040 Speaker 3: Well? 109 00:05:57,080 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 4: See, my mom was like the very clean house, so 110 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 4: we didn't really have to do the dishes. I mean 111 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:07,719 Speaker 4: we probably just stuck him in the sink and we 112 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:11,160 Speaker 4: didn't have to make our bed, which is sort of 113 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 4: maybe that's why I got spoiled so young. 114 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:18,039 Speaker 3: One of the reasons. 115 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:22,039 Speaker 2: Yeah, so Bill times at the macrone House. They were fun. 116 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:24,920 Speaker 4: Generally it was a loud dinner table. You know, my 117 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:27,599 Speaker 4: parents are very loud, so, you know, it was definitely 118 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:29,840 Speaker 4: a shock going to London when I was eighteen because 119 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 4: people were very polite and you know, we had to 120 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 4: be a certain way, and beer was very hot and 121 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 4: it was in a you know, a wood barrel or 122 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 4: something like what the hell is wrong. 123 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:41,719 Speaker 2: With this is that when you were playing when you when. 124 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 4: You first time I went to London was I was eighteen, 125 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 4: so it was sort of these in seventy seven, so 126 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:50,599 Speaker 4: that was like the punk sort of revolution, you know. 127 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:52,720 Speaker 4: So I was walking down the King's Road for the fro, 128 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 4: I'm like, oh my god, these people are crazy. But 129 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 4: then I started realizing that they were sort of like 130 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 4: we were both. They started calling me a punk for tennis. 131 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 4: I'm like, wait a minute, I'm you know, have you 132 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 4: seen the ex Pistols? So I guess in tennis terms, 133 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 4: I was sort of a punk, but compared to the 134 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 4: real ones, I had a lot of. 135 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 3: Work to do. But you know, some of what they 136 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 3: were espousing was. 137 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 4: Not all that different than what I was thinking, you know, 138 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 4: sort of rebelling against that felt unfair. 139 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 2: I thought, you know, can I raise my hand and say, 140 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 2: you rebuild against what was unfair? 141 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 3: That's what I believe, That's what I'll tell them. Yeah, but. 142 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:37,239 Speaker 4: I'll admit I went over the line on a couple 143 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 4: of occasions, maybe a couple of hundred. 144 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 3: But at the same time, it was. 145 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 4: Because I believed that our sport should be viewed differently 146 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 4: than it was and even is now. You know in 147 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 4: this you know, upper class have to behave a certain way. 148 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 4: I think that's a bunch of bologney. I never believed 149 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 4: that I wanted to be thought of. It was the 150 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 4: same way that they look at what you call football. 151 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 4: Well you're American also, but you've been there since seventy 152 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 4: in the seventies, I believe. 153 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 3: But we call soccer, they call football. 154 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 4: I thought, you know, in the rugby field, they're not 155 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 4: saying hello, how are you out there? And our football 156 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 4: field or whatever sport it is. So that's always been 157 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 4: an uphill battle. So I take pride in trying to 158 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 4: change the sport. What I believe was for the better, 159 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 4: but some people may differ with that. 160 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 2: And you refused to play in South Africa? Didn't you? 161 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 3: Thank you for saying? That was my probably the proudest 162 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:32,560 Speaker 3: decision I ever made, you know. 163 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 2: And I think I just remember being with our friends 164 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:39,439 Speaker 2: and saying, this kid, you know in Wimbledon is talking 165 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 2: about what's not right, but his political values, his social 166 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 2: values are so correct, and there weren't many players who 167 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 2: were doing that. Did you ever play? Did you ever 168 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 2: go to Soethwies you? 169 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 4: No? I did, only when they ended on apartheid. And 170 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 4: I believe that the reason that I ended up meeting 171 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 4: Nelson Manll on my first trip, where he rudely he said, 172 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 4: I wish I would have given a million dollars if 173 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 4: we had a tape of this. 174 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:09,079 Speaker 3: But he said to. 175 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:12,199 Speaker 4: Me when I walked into his house that he lived in, 176 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:14,080 Speaker 4: it's an honor to meet you. 177 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 3: And I'm like, he's not. 178 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 4: Talking to me, because that's about what I was going 179 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:22,320 Speaker 4: to say to him. Yeah, and he was the most 180 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 4: beautiful man I ever met. Well, just his hand it 181 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 4: felt like I was shaking hands with an angel. There 182 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:36,319 Speaker 4: was this feeling that I can't explain and I brought 183 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 4: a racket. I gave him the racket that I used 184 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:40,679 Speaker 4: it wimbled in the old wooden racket. I said, this 185 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 4: is for you, and he held it and he said 186 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 4: to me, I listened to your match when you played 187 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:53,560 Speaker 4: Born in nineteen eighty. And I realized that he was 188 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 4: saying that he was listening to me while he was 189 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 4: at Robin's Island, where he spent twenty seven years of 190 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:03,959 Speaker 4: his life. And I'm sitting there complaining about a goddamn 191 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 4: line call like this is the world's coming and went 192 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 4: in and this guy didn't have a bone of bitterness. 193 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:13,439 Speaker 4: It felt like in his body. How in God's name 194 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:16,440 Speaker 4: could anyone ever have that this? So, you know, I 195 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:18,319 Speaker 4: really felt like he was one of the most beautiful 196 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 4: people in history. 197 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:20,840 Speaker 2: He said it was an honor to meet you, and 198 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 2: then he said that he'd listened to you at Wimbledon. 199 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:25,960 Speaker 2: Maybe that that was the connection, you know that he 200 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 2: was also saying, yeah. 201 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 4: Well it was fair, yeah like that. I just you 202 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 4: just could picture that and then me going. 203 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:36,439 Speaker 2: Homely you think he ever played tennis. 204 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 3: From the way he was swinging the racket, I believe 205 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 3: he did play. He did. 206 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:41,959 Speaker 2: He did. 207 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:44,199 Speaker 4: I thought he played. I can't swear to that. I 208 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 4: look like he knew how to play. 209 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:48,959 Speaker 2: Yeah, my brother told me that he was once in Hollywood. 210 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:51,320 Speaker 2: My father was in the movie, said that he was 211 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 2: in Hollywood and Mandela was there, and there was this 212 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:57,080 Speaker 2: huge audience, and Spielberg was there, and Geffen was there, 213 00:10:57,080 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 2: and Tom Hanks, every every movie starred, Harrison for there 214 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 2: and then Nelson Dell was talking and he just looked 215 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 2: out and he just stopped and he came down to 216 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:10,080 Speaker 2: the audience. He walked through to the one important person 217 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:13,120 Speaker 2: in the room, and it was Muhammad al A, you know. 218 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 2: And that's going back again to the athlete, to the 219 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:20,680 Speaker 2: person who had dignity, the person who Yeah, and that's 220 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 2: that's what we you know. 221 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 4: Well, I met Ali a few times and he had 222 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:28,560 Speaker 4: a pretty profound effect too, but he was already suffering 223 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:32,280 Speaker 4: from from the effects of Parkinson's and it was tough 224 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 4: to see this, you know, incredible human being. 225 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:38,200 Speaker 3: And you know how many athletes do you know? 226 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 4: Or they would give up three years of their prime, Yeah, 227 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 4: and refused to fight because they're on principal. 228 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 3: So I think pretty much nobody, honestly. 229 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 2: When did you start playing tennis. 230 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 3: I was eight years old. 231 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 2: Did your tennis coach think about what you should be eating? 232 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 2: You know? 233 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 4: I ate cereal that had tons of sugar. I'd have 234 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:20,320 Speaker 4: a bacon sandwich for breakfast, cinnamon toast with butter and 235 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 4: cinnamon on it. My mother never said a word. Yeah, 236 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 4: it didn't matter. Just eat when you're a kid. I mean, 237 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:31,840 Speaker 4: I just totally disagree. I see these kids at my 238 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:33,920 Speaker 4: academy and they've got these portions. 239 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 3: I'm like, you're twelve, go burn it, run around a little. 240 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:39,080 Speaker 2: What about when they when they're sitting there there drinking 241 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:42,080 Speaker 2: the water and sweat, you know, sweating and so would 242 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:45,320 Speaker 2: you ever think of having anything at all to eat? No, 243 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 2: you wouldn't. 244 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 3: You mean during the match, Yeah. 245 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 2: You'd have some nuts or anything like that. 246 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:51,440 Speaker 3: Nothing, I mean bananas. 247 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:53,680 Speaker 2: That board match went on for how long? 248 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 3: Four hours? 249 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 2: Were you hungry at all? Yeah, you were hungry, but. 250 00:12:57,440 --> 00:12:59,439 Speaker 3: I mean also yourself jacked up. 251 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 4: I think if people ever saw me play, they could 252 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 4: probably agree that they saw some a lot of energy 253 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 4: being thrown out. You're actually running a lot, so it's 254 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:12,840 Speaker 4: not a good thing to have a big steak an 255 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 4: hour or two before you play. 256 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:15,560 Speaker 3: I mean, I remember beorn Borg. 257 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:18,240 Speaker 4: My buddy would have a steak two hours before every 258 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 4: match and it didn't affect him at all. 259 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 3: He was fine. 260 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:23,200 Speaker 4: He was probably one of the greatest and not the 261 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:26,840 Speaker 4: greatest athletes they saw in a court. Murray, for example, 262 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:30,320 Speaker 4: Andy Murray, I saw him eating a turkey sandwich about 263 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 4: a half hour before he played. 264 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 3: He goes, that doesn't affect me at all. 265 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:35,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, before he played, like you know, Wimbledon or something 266 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:38,720 Speaker 4: or usa U because you can eat that right. Oh no, 267 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:42,679 Speaker 4: it doesn't bother you know. So some people have different metabolisms. 268 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 4: I couldn't do that. Some people are even worse. You know, 269 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 4: they'll go the whole day and not eat at all. 270 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 4: But you know then that's why it could be why 271 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:57,440 Speaker 4: they're a little more irritable. I felt like I didn't 272 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 4: digest as quickly. Needed a little bit more time. 273 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 2: So you wake up in the morning. 274 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 3: It wasn't a big brad, not a big break. Depending 275 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 3: to mending. 276 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:08,440 Speaker 4: When I played, I would have a bigger meal, probably 277 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:13,200 Speaker 4: three hours before I played. That would be something like chicken, 278 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:17,320 Speaker 4: some type of pasta, some type of blandish potato, some 279 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:18,359 Speaker 4: type of vegetable. 280 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 3: Maybe it's possibly a soup. Not really too long. 281 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 2: I eat three hours before they have a two hour 282 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 2: break before you actually run the court. 283 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 3: Two to three hours. 284 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, later matches was preferable because I don't really like 285 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 4: breakfast that much and I don't like to have to 286 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 4: eat early, but sometimes you have to do it, you know. 287 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 4: So it's in my day there was more emphasis on carbs. 288 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 2: I was going to ask you, if it's changed changed 289 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 2: quite a bit, what year did you start? 290 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 3: I started in seventy seven, and so what. 291 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 2: Was nutrition light? I asked this to Becam the other 292 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 2: day about when did that feeling of you know, what 293 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 2: we ate affect our health? 294 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 4: I'd say the early to mid eighties there was more 295 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:07,960 Speaker 4: talk about what. 296 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 3: Would be most beneficial. 297 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 4: You know, when you're eighteen, I think you can pretty 298 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:16,400 Speaker 4: much run through anything, and the first couple of years 299 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 4: after that you can burn. You're burning so many calories 300 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:24,360 Speaker 4: it almost doesn't matter, or so you thought, because it's 301 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 4: sort of mind over matter, But it because I think 302 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 4: it's people are more aware of it than ever. 303 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 3: I think they've gone a little bit too far. 304 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 4: The other way do you in my opinion, But I 305 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 4: think they just you know, every little you know, they 306 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 4: regulate everything and they've got to do what it's such 307 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:41,920 Speaker 4: a time and eat such an amount and I think 308 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 4: it's such a bunch of bs personally. 309 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 2: And now you're going to come back to onelon the summer, 310 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 2: you will be that. 311 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 4: You know, I've been there probably forty seventy seven I'd 312 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:58,360 Speaker 4: say forty three of the last forty five years. Yeah, 313 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 4: when my first child was born, I miss one. The 314 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 4: pandemic was canceled, but pretty much everyone I've been there, 315 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 4: either as a player as a commentator. 316 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, So it sort of come full circle because. 317 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 4: When they wanted to get rid of me for a 318 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 4: while and throw me out, and now all of a sudden, 319 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 4: you know, I'm working for BBC of all places, and 320 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 4: they're telling me to do exactly what I want, you know. 321 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 4: So I find that to be very commendable, I must say, 322 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 4: because you know, there's sort of we thought like, hey, 323 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:33,040 Speaker 4: they're a bunch of stuff shirts the way they talk 324 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 4: and the way they deal with the event. But when 325 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 4: they hired me, they were like, look, we want something different, 326 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 4: you know, we want you to be you. And I 327 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 4: think that's the key to hopefully my success, if you 328 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 4: know people want to call it that is because I'd 329 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 4: recognize that you need to be yourself. 330 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:53,880 Speaker 2: Obviously for you. And I can't imagine what it's like 331 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 2: being booed out of court. I can't imagine who would do. 332 00:16:56,760 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 3: That, well, you know, but people did. 333 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 2: I know, and I think that. 334 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 3: How did you feel when you got booed? 335 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:07,119 Speaker 4: When you walked on the court for the nineteen eighty 336 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 4: and eighty one Wimbledon final against. 337 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:11,359 Speaker 3: Pork didn't feel that great? 338 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 4: But I could always do what Trump did, which was, 339 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:19,920 Speaker 4: you know, I sat next to him once and we 340 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:22,359 Speaker 4: were at a hockey game. Coincidence that we were sitting 341 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 4: next to each other, and they would introduce quote unquote 342 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:30,359 Speaker 4: celebrities and they you know, I'm hoping like they don't boom. 343 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 4: You know, Ladies and gentlemen, John McEnroe, three time Wimbledon 344 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:37,719 Speaker 4: Jim you know, luckily I'm in New Yorker. I've been 345 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 4: in New York in my whole nice applause. A half 346 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 4: hour later, ladies and gentlemen, you know, entrepreneur, real estate 347 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 4: icon and apprentice. 348 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:53,960 Speaker 3: This is two years before he ran ars, two years 349 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 3: before he. 350 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 4: Ran fifteen thousand of the seventeen thousand people boot him. 351 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 4: He sat down and he looked at me, and he says, John, 352 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:04,480 Speaker 4: they still love me. 353 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:08,960 Speaker 3: And I thought, for the first time, I thought maybe 354 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 3: he could be a politician. He is of all things. 355 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 3: The guy became the president of the United. 356 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:20,480 Speaker 4: States, you know, and you would have thought he would 357 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 4: have actually like said, oh my god, how in God's 358 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 4: name did I do this. We've been around him about 359 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 4: two hundred and fifty years. I would say that was 360 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:32,640 Speaker 4: probably the craziest thing that ever happened. And we've had 361 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:36,960 Speaker 4: civil wars. This guy, you know, never ran for anything 362 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:37,560 Speaker 4: in his life. 363 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 3: Now. 364 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 4: See, you can't do something with Trump though, because he 365 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 4: doesn't know. 366 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:46,920 Speaker 3: He eats terrible food, right, he. 367 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 4: Doesn't sleep, and he never works out, and he's you 368 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:54,240 Speaker 4: know something, that guy's got more energy than I've ever 369 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:55,880 Speaker 4: seen anywhere in my entire life. 370 00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 3: It is crazy. I mean it's weird. 371 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:01,240 Speaker 2: Are you an emotional when you would lose a game? 372 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:02,680 Speaker 2: Would you not want? 373 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 3: Really? 374 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 2: Nothing like that or. 375 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:08,879 Speaker 3: That would be alcohol, would or other things? 376 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:10,639 Speaker 2: But not food? 377 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 4: I mean food might It's not like I, you know, 378 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:15,480 Speaker 4: go in and eat a bag of you know, potato 379 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:16,400 Speaker 4: chips because I. 380 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:16,920 Speaker 3: Was pasted it. 381 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 2: What's your plan? You don't go out, you don't party, 382 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 2: you don't go out in the evening. 383 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:25,199 Speaker 4: You I was not able to do much in the 384 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 4: way of partying during Wimbledon, of all things. 385 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:30,720 Speaker 3: You'd hate to sort of blame it on that anybody, 386 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:32,439 Speaker 3: not that I'm aware of. 387 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:35,240 Speaker 4: No, I mean I think that in the older days 388 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:37,640 Speaker 4: a few of us tried to do it a little bit, 389 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 4: but not you know, you'd be a fool to do 390 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 4: it at Wimbledon. You could do it at a period 391 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:48,240 Speaker 4: of time where you're not you know, it's an exhibition 392 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:51,399 Speaker 4: or a smaller event, or it's not much on the line, 393 00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 4: but if you willing to do it Van and then 394 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:56,679 Speaker 4: to me is sort of like you're not taking it 395 00:19:56,760 --> 00:20:00,439 Speaker 4: seriously enough. Sometimes, you know, you may not want to 396 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:05,200 Speaker 4: be particularly social if you're more wound up, maybe before 397 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 4: close to a match, especially me. 398 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:12,919 Speaker 2: I'm sad I missed you in London because it was 399 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 2: crazy the last time you were there and I was here. 400 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:18,440 Speaker 2: Do you remember you were just arriving. 401 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 3: Yeah. 402 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:22,280 Speaker 4: I came over for a cup, an event called the 403 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:26,120 Speaker 4: Labor Cup, which is a team tennis event where Roger 404 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:29,040 Speaker 4: Feeder ended up retiring, so it was a big deal 405 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:29,719 Speaker 4: for the sport. 406 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, how did you feel we felt. 407 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:36,480 Speaker 4: I felt that it was a beautiful night and moment incredible. 408 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:40,240 Speaker 4: We also won as a team for the first time, 409 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 4: which was even more incredible. No offense to Roger, and 410 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:48,720 Speaker 4: so the weekend of the week I was there turned 411 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:49,680 Speaker 4: out to be awesome. 412 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 2: Did you ever go to your friends because it's very 413 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 2: international tennis, you're talking about playing with Borg and playing Fetter. 414 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 2: Do you go to their house? Have you been to Switzerland? 415 00:20:58,720 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 2: Never get a fund? 416 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 3: Do you think, damn guy won't invite me the Orange 417 00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:06,120 Speaker 3: house I've been at? 418 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:06,840 Speaker 2: What was that like? 419 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 4: You know, it's that you know the sweets, you know, 420 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 4: they're great, spotty hat up in the on the water 421 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:15,360 Speaker 4: and loves to entertain. 422 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:16,199 Speaker 3: You know. 423 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:19,400 Speaker 4: One of the best friends you could ever have. Never 424 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:20,399 Speaker 4: eats much. 425 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 2: He doesn't eat, not a big eater. 426 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:26,639 Speaker 3: I don't know how the guy never has been tired 427 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:27,240 Speaker 3: in his life. 428 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 2: Yeah. 429 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:32,879 Speaker 3: Uh, phenomenal athlete. I don't know. It's constitution, you know, 430 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:33,720 Speaker 3: whatever it is. 431 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:37,480 Speaker 4: It's him because he'll he eats because he has to eat. 432 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 4: I eat because I like to eat. We do just 433 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:40,800 Speaker 4: a difference. 434 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:43,399 Speaker 2: What about your kids, So having six kids, that's a 435 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:47,159 Speaker 2: kind of food responsibility. Did you take that on in 436 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:48,399 Speaker 2: terms of I took it on. 437 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:50,960 Speaker 4: But sometimes I think, you know, we we we should 438 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:52,480 Speaker 4: have just let it go and let him do what 439 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:54,720 Speaker 4: they want pretty much, let him learn on their own. 440 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:56,439 Speaker 3: I mean, you could recommend. 441 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:59,200 Speaker 4: Stuff, but if you sort of no, that's not good, 442 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:01,359 Speaker 4: that desert because you're putting on You know, girls are 443 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:08,800 Speaker 4: four girls and two boys. Every human being is different. 444 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 4: All my kids are different, so you got to sort 445 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:14,000 Speaker 4: of know how to treat them. My son, one of 446 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:19,639 Speaker 4: my sons, he would eat so slowly. Everyone would be 447 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 4: finished at the table. He'd still be cutting the saladch 448 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:26,200 Speaker 4: saning to eat your goddamn salad, you know, and he'd 449 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 4: sit there absolutely perfect body. Though I don't know why 450 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 4: he you know, he chewed everything twenty times. 451 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 3: So the way I never said that, if. 452 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 2: You will sit down to dinner when you had the 453 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:43,359 Speaker 2: kids to the family, you had dinner every night together. 454 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 4: Somebody they called me Larry the lecturer is what I 455 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 4: became known as because I try to give him a 456 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:52,160 Speaker 4: little bit of life's lesson and then, oh god, here 457 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:53,119 Speaker 4: he goes again. 458 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 2: About food, about life, about anything. 459 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 4: Sometimes it was food, sometimes there's about tennis. Sometimes it 460 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:01,960 Speaker 4: was about life. Sometimes there's about cool work. Sometimes it 461 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:05,800 Speaker 4: was about nothing in particular, and then I started pontificating 462 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:08,159 Speaker 4: and that rubbed them the wrong way. And sometimes I 463 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 4: overdid it, and then I dig in and they go Dad, everyone. 464 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:13,919 Speaker 3: Disagrees with the other table. 465 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 4: There's seven seven to one, including Patty and I go 466 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 4: I'm still right. 467 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:33,960 Speaker 3: I love Italian food. 468 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 2: Have lived in Italy. 469 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 3: I've never lived there. 470 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 4: I've been there, you know, probably fifty to seventy five times. Yeah, playing, 471 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:41,920 Speaker 4: you know. 472 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:43,640 Speaker 2: But yeah, where did you go? 473 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:46,359 Speaker 3: Oh? Every city you can imagine. 474 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 4: The first rock and roll tour that I ever participated 475 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 4: in as a band, allegedly I was the most traveled 476 00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 4: unsigned band in history. 477 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:01,720 Speaker 2: Oh is that a fact? 478 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 3: I would bet money on that. 479 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 4: But we did a two week tour of Italy in 480 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 4: the summer of nineteen ninety four, ninety four. I was 481 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 4: thirty five. Yeah, I had stopped. 482 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,440 Speaker 3: Playing from a well, I. 483 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:20,119 Speaker 4: Was more of a sort of a passion and I 484 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 4: don't want to say hobby, but something that was trying 485 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 4: to sort of find that find out where I was headed, 486 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 4: because you know, when you stop playing, it's not always 487 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:34,040 Speaker 4: on the terms you want. I was going through a 488 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 4: divorce at the time at the end of my career, 489 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:38,200 Speaker 4: which I didn't anticipate. 490 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 3: I had three kids, so I. 491 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:43,360 Speaker 4: Was you know, then the next couple of years you're 492 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:44,720 Speaker 4: going through it. 493 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 3: It's not fun. 494 00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:49,919 Speaker 4: So I needed a little bit of levity and so 495 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,280 Speaker 4: I was able to start to do something that I 496 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:56,360 Speaker 4: love to do. It made me appreciate my friends who 497 00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 4: did it for a living more. But it was a 498 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 4: fun trip, I must. 499 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 2: Say, and vitally. 500 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:04,879 Speaker 4: My agent at the time was Italian and so he 501 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:07,800 Speaker 4: sort of set this whole thing up. We played with 502 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:10,400 Speaker 4: Frank Sinatra plant I forgot forte dem. 503 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:13,159 Speaker 3: But we played some. 504 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:19,479 Speaker 4: Nice locales, but we we didn't knock them dead. Now, 505 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 4: we didn't get to eat the food that you know, 506 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:25,000 Speaker 4: you're normally able to get pretty easily just because of 507 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 4: scheduling and stuff. But I mean, you can stop by 508 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:31,480 Speaker 4: a highway, which is a lot better than. 509 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:42,119 Speaker 2: The apostat those little sandwiches that they fought. When you 510 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:45,199 Speaker 2: segued from that that photograph that I describe, which I 511 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 2: can imagine in my head of you carrying the painting, 512 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 2: how we segued from from music to art from tis. 513 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:54,680 Speaker 4: Well, I always loved art because I relate to artists 514 00:25:55,280 --> 00:26:01,720 Speaker 4: big time. Because there is close to tennis players as 515 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 4: almost anyone else, because they're sort of on their own island. 516 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:08,000 Speaker 3: They've got to represent. 517 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:10,960 Speaker 4: They go to a gallery opening, people could be there 518 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 4: and it sucks, you know, and the person could. 519 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 3: Be right there and well, yeah, they couldn't. He couldn't 520 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 3: give those paintings away. 521 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 4: He got so frustrated with the art world that he 522 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:23,960 Speaker 4: sort of walked away from it. 523 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:26,159 Speaker 3: So it's like sort of like if I walked. 524 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:27,960 Speaker 4: Into the center court of Wimbledon and you know, I 525 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 4: lose six to zero, you know, and I'm down to 526 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 4: zero and people are booing, and you feel like, you know, 527 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:36,200 Speaker 4: you want to hide. It's the worst feeling in the world. 528 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:40,879 Speaker 4: So I think it takes guts to put yourself in 529 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 4: a position there's a great reward if it goes well, 530 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 4: but there's also a definite downside, So it takes I 531 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 4: think it takes emotional strength to do that. And so 532 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,159 Speaker 4: I think it's the same as for an artist or 533 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:55,680 Speaker 4: like a comedian that does stand up. You know, I've 534 00:26:55,720 --> 00:27:00,720 Speaker 4: seen many a comedian's bomb And I would never criticize 535 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 4: a player on a court if I see them giving 536 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:07,679 Speaker 4: one hundred percent and they're laying an egg. That's not 537 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:09,280 Speaker 4: what I have a problem. I have a problem with 538 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:11,000 Speaker 4: the people that go out in the court and don't 539 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:13,159 Speaker 4: try and give their best. That's the part I have 540 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,400 Speaker 4: a problem. Because you've been put in this position where 541 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:19,440 Speaker 4: you could do something that would be truly memorable at 542 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 4: a you know, a truly memorable site, say at Wimbledon 543 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:23,920 Speaker 4: in the US Open, you don't want to go out 544 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,680 Speaker 4: there in half asset. So that's why I've always related. 545 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 4: I always loved Guston. He was one of my favorite artists. 546 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 4: I'm not sure why that started. I loved, like, I 547 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:40,240 Speaker 4: think because they're so political. All through his career, you know, 548 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 4: and even when he was in his twenties, not his twenties, 549 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 4: in the twenties and thirties, he was painting hooded figures 550 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:50,760 Speaker 4: and you know, clan people railing against that. 551 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:53,400 Speaker 3: And then he went through different. 552 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:56,920 Speaker 4: Periods, which I love to see artists doing different things. 553 00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,439 Speaker 3: And then he went almost you know, abstract express this. 554 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,120 Speaker 4: You know, you're like, that's a huge change, and then 555 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 4: back to these like cartoonist figures, which I thought were incredible. 556 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:11,280 Speaker 4: So I just thought this guy just had a you 557 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:14,399 Speaker 4: know that would be like the type of artists that 558 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:16,920 Speaker 4: if I was an artist, I'd be trying to emulate, 559 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 4: you know, so and he stuff. 560 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:21,639 Speaker 2: But he really was so And when you were talking about, 561 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:25,680 Speaker 2: you know, saying, somebody is just criticizing them in such 562 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 2: a damaging way, you know, Hilton Kramer of the New 563 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,840 Speaker 2: York Times, when Gustin had his first show at Marlborough 564 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:33,960 Speaker 2: and he showed the hooded figures and he showed the 565 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:36,199 Speaker 2: clan just wrote on the front page of the New 566 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:38,239 Speaker 2: York Times Arts sets, you hit this guy should give 567 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:40,960 Speaker 2: up and go home. And you know, he got on 568 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,480 Speaker 2: a boat to Rome. He was I said, he was 569 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 2: a friend of my father's who was also very political, 570 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 2: and it was so damaging, you know, and it was 571 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:51,880 Speaker 2: so cruel and it was fearful. 572 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 4: I find it, you know, difficult to respect these I mean, 573 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 4: I respect someone who gives some destructive criticism or who 574 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:06,320 Speaker 4: would admit I don't get this and I'm not sure 575 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 4: why this person did it, but I've got to sort 576 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:13,440 Speaker 4: of let this, let me digest this, or some half 577 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 4: assed that goes on. You know, some tennis guy you 578 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 4: know who writes tennis who did make it because he 579 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 4: wasn't good enough and then he's going to sit there 580 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 4: and criticize me. I go, you better know what you're 581 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:28,880 Speaker 4: talking about before you start laying it out. Some people 582 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:31,960 Speaker 4: that went around the tennis circuit for a handful of 583 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 4: years I respected, I respected their opinion. I would, you know, 584 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:37,760 Speaker 4: take the heart what they would say. At least I'd 585 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:42,560 Speaker 4: give it, you know, the legitimacy deserved. A lot of 586 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:44,880 Speaker 4: other people would come in to show up one or 587 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 4: two weeks a year because they were local beat writers 588 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,160 Speaker 4: for the hockey teams or basketball, and they'd roll in 589 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 4: when we went to Philly or these other places and 590 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:56,479 Speaker 4: they'd start, you know, lambassing the tennis players. 591 00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:58,400 Speaker 3: And then I was like, you don't know a damn thing. 592 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 4: About what we're doing, and was frustrating, and it's hard 593 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 4: to respect that. So I could certainly see where a 594 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:11,120 Speaker 4: guy who you know, put his heart into soul into something, 595 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:15,320 Speaker 4: you know, either way, like in my case, I was 596 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 4: lucky because even I didn't like it. But sometimes negative 597 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 4: attention can still people still want you. You know, they'll 598 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:27,479 Speaker 4: offer you money to come because they think that you know. 599 00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:29,840 Speaker 3: The car crash. 600 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 4: If you're an artist and someone completely shits on you 601 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:35,240 Speaker 4: and you know you don't sell anything. You're not making 602 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:38,479 Speaker 4: any money, so you could, you know, head down a 603 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:42,240 Speaker 4: really bad path, and I think a lot of artists 604 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:44,480 Speaker 4: have done that as well as comedians. 605 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:46,680 Speaker 3: The upside is. 606 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:49,320 Speaker 4: If you're able to stick with it and believe it that, 607 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:54,160 Speaker 4: you know, the turnaround could be all the more sweet. Unfortunately, 608 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:56,240 Speaker 4: it doesn't seem to happen that often with artists that 609 00:30:56,240 --> 00:31:01,719 Speaker 4: are alive and nowadays to me, a successful artist at 610 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:05,240 Speaker 4: least financially, they're like businessmen. They're not even like, you know, 611 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 4: the best artists to me anymore, they're just the smart. 612 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:12,360 Speaker 4: They're extremely smart people, and they manipulate the system in 613 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:18,000 Speaker 4: a brilliant way. I mean, I must say, and that's 614 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:20,600 Speaker 4: part of what I like about sports ultimately, because you 615 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:22,280 Speaker 4: can't really do that in sports. 616 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 3: I mean ultimately you got to go out there. 617 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,080 Speaker 4: You can talk all you want, but you know, you 618 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 4: get out in the court or you got to step up. 619 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:31,680 Speaker 3: So that part I like that. 620 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 4: Ultimately, the best will the cream will rise to the top. 621 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:42,480 Speaker 2: I think that you know your honesty and your you 622 00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:44,959 Speaker 2: know what you say about whether it's you know the 623 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 2: world or Trump or the booing or the art or 624 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:51,360 Speaker 2: the solitariness. It is a solitary thing, is it? Play? 625 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 2: You know, being an artist in your. 626 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:56,960 Speaker 3: Studient very solitary, especially and your sport. 627 00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:00,160 Speaker 2: That's why I love the musician Devils. 628 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:02,520 Speaker 4: And I also love playing for my country because you're 629 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:04,800 Speaker 4: with the team for that brief period of time. 630 00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:07,960 Speaker 2: And I think you you know, as I said, from 631 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,440 Speaker 2: the very beginning, we were on your side. We thought 632 00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:14,520 Speaker 2: you are. You know, your anger was fine, your unfairness 633 00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:19,120 Speaker 2: was respected. Your politics, you know, your politics were amazing. 634 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,520 Speaker 2: Ow are And I think as a model that's what counts, 635 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 2: you know, and as a player, And. 636 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:25,400 Speaker 3: I think you're I do. 637 00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 2: I think you're really nice. I think you're nice to 638 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:34,719 Speaker 2: walk across the park. I think you are. So if 639 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,200 Speaker 2: we think that food, you're gonna have food which makes 640 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,440 Speaker 2: you feel healthier, food which makes you feel better performance. 641 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 2: You could have food that pleases your mother because you've 642 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:45,160 Speaker 2: eaten it. You could have food that you want your 643 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:47,640 Speaker 2: children to eat. Food can be all that, but can 644 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:53,320 Speaker 2: also be comfort. If you needed comfort, what food would 645 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:53,960 Speaker 2: you reach for? 646 00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:56,840 Speaker 3: Big ball of ice cream? 647 00:32:57,040 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 2: Ice cream? I'm sure I do too. 648 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:06,120 Speaker 4: I love ice cream, cookies and cream coffee, you know, 649 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:07,600 Speaker 4: mixture of things. 650 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:09,840 Speaker 2: Do you always keep it in the house if you Yeah, 651 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:10,360 Speaker 2: I do. 652 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:12,479 Speaker 4: But that's not you know, we shouldn't do that. I 653 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:15,280 Speaker 4: love you know. I love a beer and Pratzels late 654 00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:16,760 Speaker 4: at night. It's comforting. 655 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:20,960 Speaker 2: Yeah. Is there a food that reminds you of your childhood? 656 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:24,440 Speaker 3: Pancakes? Are some? Did great? 657 00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:27,000 Speaker 2: Well? 658 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:28,440 Speaker 3: Thank you thanks for having me. 659 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,160 Speaker 1: The River Cafe Look Book is now available in bookshops 660 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:41,400 Speaker 1: and online. It has over one hundred recipes, beautifully illustrated 661 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:45,920 Speaker 1: with photographs from the renowned photographer Matthew Donaldson. The book 662 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:49,840 Speaker 1: has fifty delicious and easy to prepare recipes, including a 663 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:53,400 Speaker 1: host of River Cafe classics that have been specially adapted 664 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:57,959 Speaker 1: for new cooks. The River Cafe Lookbook Recipes for Cooks 665 00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:06,480 Speaker 1: of all ages. Ruthie's Table four is a production of 666 00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:11,600 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio and Adamized Studios. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit 667 00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:15,640 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 668 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:16,520 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.