WEBVTT - Wired for Change 0:00:14.916 --> 0:00:34.756 Pushkin. I was never a socially skilled kid. I never 0:00:34.836 --> 0:00:37.316 knew what to say. Someone would come up to me 0:00:37.356 --> 0:00:41.436 and they would say, look at my new doll, and 0:00:41.476 --> 0:00:45.116 I would say, I like elephants, and they would just 0:00:45.196 --> 0:00:48.156 like look at me. And I never understood what I 0:00:48.196 --> 0:00:51.276 did wrong. I was always saying and doing the wrong thing. 0:00:52.476 --> 0:00:55.916 That's John Elder Robeson. He's always had a gift for 0:00:56.036 --> 0:01:00.276 understanding machines versus a sound engineer, then as a car mechanic. 0:01:01.036 --> 0:01:03.436 But the one thing he always felt was lacking was 0:01:03.476 --> 0:01:06.996 his ability to connect with people emotionally. He says he 0:01:07.076 --> 0:01:11.076 often felt depressed and anxious about his interactions, and over 0:01:11.116 --> 0:01:13.316 the years he'd done a number of things to try 0:01:13.316 --> 0:01:17.196 and foster a deeper connection with others. Then in two 0:01:17.236 --> 0:01:21.276 thousand and eight, John came across a unique opportunity. He 0:01:21.356 --> 0:01:24.276 was given the chance to participate in an experimental brain 0:01:24.356 --> 0:01:28.236 study that he hoped would quote increase his emotional sensitivity. 0:01:29.516 --> 0:01:35.996 I so much wanted to do that because when I 0:01:36.036 --> 0:01:41.876 had learned that there were these facial expressions, and there 0:01:41.876 --> 0:01:47.396 were these whole like unspoken conversations that happened between so 0:01:47.436 --> 0:01:51.916 called normal people, and I couldn't yet them. It was 0:01:51.996 --> 0:01:54.716 like there were two whole conversations going on, and I 0:01:54.756 --> 0:01:56.476 could only hear one of them. And I thought, if 0:01:56.516 --> 0:01:58.836 only I could hear the other one, if only I 0:01:58.836 --> 0:02:02.676 could understand it, I would be happy. And that was 0:02:02.716 --> 0:02:05.796 this like fantasy I built up in my mind that 0:02:05.876 --> 0:02:08.116 if I could see these things and other people, my 0:02:08.276 --> 0:02:14.516 life would be beautiful. On today's episode, when you discover 0:02:14.676 --> 0:02:17.156 that the thing you most wanted to change about yourself 0:02:17.436 --> 0:02:23.276 didn't actually need changing. I'm maya Shunker and this is 0:02:23.316 --> 0:02:26.116 a slight change of plans, a show about who we 0:02:26.156 --> 0:02:28.716 are and who we become in the face of a 0:02:28.756 --> 0:02:42.996 big change. The core of John's story takes place in 0:02:43.036 --> 0:02:45.516 the nineteen eighties and nineties, when he was working as 0:02:45.556 --> 0:02:49.276 a car mechanic in Springfield, Massachusetts. But as you'll hear, 0:02:49.436 --> 0:02:52.356 John's had many careers over the years, and we started 0:02:52.396 --> 0:02:54.516 at our conversation by talking about his time in the 0:02:54.596 --> 0:02:57.916 music business. He has a rare ear for technical detail, 0:02:58.236 --> 0:03:00.556 and in the nineteen seventies he worked as a sound 0:03:00.596 --> 0:03:04.356 engineer for the likes of Kiss and Diana Ross. I 0:03:04.396 --> 0:03:10.996 think that people felt that I could see into the amplifiers, 0:03:10.996 --> 0:03:14.196 and I could see into the electronic systems, and I 0:03:14.316 --> 0:03:19.316 felt like I could see it. You know, I could 0:03:19.436 --> 0:03:25.156 stand out at the mixing desk at a concert, which was, 0:03:25.276 --> 0:03:29.716 you know, running my equipment, and you know, I could 0:03:29.756 --> 0:03:33.356 push It's like pushing the throttles on a powerful boat. 0:03:33.436 --> 0:03:35.396 You know, I could push it up and I could 0:03:35.476 --> 0:03:39.476 feel that this is just how far you can push 0:03:39.516 --> 0:03:42.316 it before you blow it up. And I think that 0:03:42.316 --> 0:03:46.796 that was a gift that was relatively uncommon. And that 0:03:46.876 --> 0:03:49.076 was the thing I loved about it. I loved I 0:03:49.156 --> 0:03:53.556 loved making the equipment thing for all those people. Oh, 0:03:53.596 --> 0:03:55.796 I love that. It's a very beautiful portrayal of what 0:03:55.836 --> 0:03:59.356 it means to work in sound. You ended up becoming 0:03:59.396 --> 0:04:02.356 interested in cars, right, which is what you do right now? 0:04:03.236 --> 0:04:05.796 Why is it that you decided to eventually leave your 0:04:05.876 --> 0:04:10.996 musical career behind when it got to dealing with people? 0:04:11.116 --> 0:04:17.396 Because music was my first job. The musicians appreciated what 0:04:17.596 --> 0:04:22.476 I could create, but other people thought that I was 0:04:23.796 --> 0:04:28.276 strange or bizarre or you know whatever. And I thought, well, 0:04:28.276 --> 0:04:32.756 what could I do? And I always had had this 0:04:32.916 --> 0:04:36.916 love of machinery and cars, and I thought, you know, 0:04:37.156 --> 0:04:41.356 I'm just gonna be a mechanic. And I turned out 0:04:41.356 --> 0:04:44.956 to have a gift for understanding automotive machines, just the 0:04:44.996 --> 0:04:49.356 way I had understood musical machines and other kinds of electronics. 0:04:49.916 --> 0:04:55.116 I left, and I kind of never looked back. I'm wondering, John, 0:04:55.556 --> 0:04:57.156 can you bring me back to the day in your 0:04:57.196 --> 0:04:59.996 car shop when your client surprised you with a book. 0:05:01.396 --> 0:05:06.036 I had always been kind of a social failure, but 0:05:06.836 --> 0:05:12.436 at my car business I had to learn enough social skills. 0:05:12.476 --> 0:05:14.796 I guessed that people would come back a second time, 0:05:15.436 --> 0:05:17.596 and I spent a fair amount of time talking to 0:05:17.676 --> 0:05:20.796 the customers that would sit in the waiting room and 0:05:20.876 --> 0:05:23.276 wait for their cars, and I got to know him. 0:05:23.436 --> 0:05:25.556 Some of them came in over a period of years. 0:05:25.636 --> 0:05:30.796 One fellow was a therapist and comes in one day 0:05:30.836 --> 0:05:32.636 and he says, you know, John, I've heard you tell 0:05:32.676 --> 0:05:36.396 me how alone you feel many times. And I've heard 0:05:36.436 --> 0:05:39.276 you tell me like you feel like you're standing in 0:05:39.316 --> 0:05:41.756 the rain outside looking in the windows at all the 0:05:41.796 --> 0:05:43.876 people standing by a fire, and you don't know how 0:05:43.916 --> 0:05:46.676 to get in and be with them. And he said, 0:05:48.076 --> 0:05:50.396 you know, there's a thing that we're talking about in 0:05:50.436 --> 0:05:54.756 the mental health community that kind of explains that is 0:05:54.796 --> 0:05:58.916 called asperger syndrome. It's a kind of autism. And I 0:05:59.036 --> 0:06:02.716 just looked at him and I thought autism. Then he 0:06:02.796 --> 0:06:07.276 pulls out this book. It was called Asperger Syndrome. It 0:06:07.356 --> 0:06:10.836 was by a doctor Tony At and he says, look, 0:06:10.916 --> 0:06:16.076 he says, it's people like you and can't read facial expressions, 0:06:16.196 --> 0:06:21.756 can't tell when somebody's angry or somebody said say inappropriate things, 0:06:21.756 --> 0:06:25.276 and get people upset, to have difficulty looking other people 0:06:25.276 --> 0:06:28.356 in the eye, and other folks think that they're being 0:06:28.556 --> 0:06:31.716 tricky or evasive, and like everything he's saying to me 0:06:31.956 --> 0:06:37.156 is me. And I'm listening to that. And first I 0:06:37.196 --> 0:06:39.476 was like stunned at him telling me that I had 0:06:39.516 --> 0:06:44.356 this kind of autism. And then as he kept saying 0:06:44.396 --> 0:06:46.316 this is it, and this and this and this and 0:06:46.396 --> 0:06:48.596 every one of those things with me, and it was 0:06:48.676 --> 0:06:53.436 just it was just shocking. It's just like totally came 0:06:53.476 --> 0:06:55.996 out of the blue. It's not like I was sitting 0:06:56.036 --> 0:06:58.836 in a therapist's office saying, doctor, tell me what's wrong 0:06:58.876 --> 0:07:02.156 with me. It's like I was sitting behind the desk 0:07:02.196 --> 0:07:06.516 at my car repair place and this is just thrust 0:07:06.556 --> 0:07:10.876 in front of me, and it was shocking, you're having 0:07:10.916 --> 0:07:15.436 this this life changing moment, and I'm wondering what did 0:07:15.476 --> 0:07:17.676 it feel like to have this kind of clarity for 0:07:17.716 --> 0:07:25.356 the first time. Well, my first thought was, Okay, if 0:07:25.396 --> 0:07:29.196 I have this Asberger thing, how do I get cured? 0:07:30.716 --> 0:07:34.796 And he said, well, it's not a disease. It's just 0:07:34.916 --> 0:07:39.116 how you are. People with autism that's how they are, 0:07:39.156 --> 0:07:42.196 and people with Asperger's that's how you are. He says, 0:07:42.276 --> 0:07:46.796 it's like being short or tall or you know whatever, 0:07:46.916 --> 0:07:52.916 it's just it's how you are. But then after it 0:07:52.996 --> 0:07:56.676 sinks in there's no cure. Well, now I know I 0:07:56.756 --> 0:07:58.956 have all this trouble and it's never going to end. 0:08:00.156 --> 0:08:04.476 And I was really sad, but I couldn't help reading 0:08:04.596 --> 0:08:09.996 the book he had left me. And at first I thought, wow, 0:08:10.516 --> 0:08:14.436 people told me I was mental and stupid and sociopathic 0:08:14.476 --> 0:08:18.316 and stuff. All my life I heard these kinds of things, 0:08:18.676 --> 0:08:22.676 and now here he is telling me I've not any 0:08:22.716 --> 0:08:27.916 of those things. I'm a person with this Asperger's and 0:08:28.036 --> 0:08:30.636 that explains why I've had all this trouble in my life. 0:08:31.636 --> 0:08:36.836 But gradually I realized I can take the knowledge from 0:08:36.876 --> 0:08:40.636 that book and I can teach myself to act differently. 0:08:40.956 --> 0:08:43.196 I can teach myself that even if it makes me 0:08:43.276 --> 0:08:46.396 uncomfortable to look in your eyes when you're talking to me, 0:08:46.756 --> 0:08:48.956 I can look at your cheeks, I can look at 0:08:48.996 --> 0:08:52.796 your mouth. And when I did that, it was kind 0:08:52.796 --> 0:08:58.756 of amazing because people responded better to me, even though 0:08:58.876 --> 0:09:03.836 I couldn't tell about people's body language and expressions. After 0:09:03.876 --> 0:09:09.356 reading Atwood's book, I understood that I would get too 0:09:09.356 --> 0:09:11.476 close to people and I would make them feel threatened. 0:09:11.836 --> 0:09:13.876 So I could just make a rule. If I held 0:09:13.956 --> 0:09:16.316 my arm out in front of me, I could say, 0:09:16.396 --> 0:09:19.756 I won't get any closer to you than two arms 0:09:19.796 --> 0:09:22.556 lengths when we're talking in the waiting room. And I 0:09:22.676 --> 0:09:26.836 began to see that I could change how I behaved 0:09:26.956 --> 0:09:30.476 and it really changed my life for the better. And 0:09:31.036 --> 0:09:33.756 that's when I started to go from feeling, oh boy, 0:09:33.836 --> 0:09:37.036 you know, I understand why I had all this trouble, 0:09:37.156 --> 0:09:41.716 but it's hopeless to thinking, you know, I can change 0:09:41.756 --> 0:09:47.236 my life completely with this knowledge. And that was a really, 0:09:47.396 --> 0:09:50.116 really big deal for me. Did it lead you to 0:09:50.196 --> 0:09:54.756 reinterpret your past? You'd had experiences with depression? Did it 0:09:54.836 --> 0:10:00.356 help you understand aspects of that differently? Now? The thing 0:10:00.516 --> 0:10:08.596 I had always wanted was to feel like I was 0:10:11.276 --> 0:10:20.116 a normal person, and so when I learned about autism, 0:10:20.156 --> 0:10:24.676 I had an explanation for why things had gone wrong 0:10:24.716 --> 0:10:28.236 with me and for why I was a second rate person. 0:10:29.756 --> 0:10:35.116 And I have to say that today we have this, 0:10:36.396 --> 0:10:40.836 you know, really different autism awareness. And to say that 0:10:40.916 --> 0:10:43.596 I was a second rate person, that's like a bad 0:10:43.596 --> 0:10:45.916 thing to say now, but you know, that's how I felt. 0:10:45.996 --> 0:10:50.956 I felt like I was second rate and and I 0:10:51.076 --> 0:10:55.436 wanted so much to be normal, and so I thought, 0:10:56.996 --> 0:11:03.956 you know, I should write my own story about growing 0:11:04.076 --> 0:11:10.276 up and learning about this asperger autism thing. And that 0:11:10.396 --> 0:11:13.916 was what gave me the courage to write what became 0:11:13.996 --> 0:11:16.996 Look Me in the Eye. And the book came out 0:11:17.996 --> 0:11:21.996 and all these people started reading it, and you know, 0:11:22.116 --> 0:11:25.796 one of the people who read it was this postdoctoral 0:11:25.876 --> 0:11:30.276 researcher at Harvard Medical School, and she showed up at 0:11:30.316 --> 0:11:33.796 a talk I was doing in a bookstore, and she said, 0:11:35.316 --> 0:11:41.876 we're doing a study that's aimed at possibly helping autistic 0:11:41.956 --> 0:11:48.676 people see emotional cues and read expressions in other people. 0:11:49.356 --> 0:11:54.996 And we're hoping that your talks are attracting autistic people 0:11:55.236 --> 0:11:58.556 in the audience, and maybe you could hand out flyers 0:11:58.556 --> 0:12:01.516 for our study, and you could attract some volunteers for us. 0:12:01.756 --> 0:12:04.556 And I was like thinking, now i'll tell people, Oh, 0:12:04.596 --> 0:12:07.676 but I want to do it. I just I so 0:12:07.756 --> 0:12:14.196 much wanted to do that because when I had learned 0:12:15.916 --> 0:12:22.076 in that Atwood book that there were these facial expressions 0:12:22.076 --> 0:12:26.436 and there were these whole like unspoken conversations that he 0:12:26.516 --> 0:12:31.316 described that happened between so called normal people, and I 0:12:31.356 --> 0:12:34.116 couldn't get them. It was like there were two whole 0:12:34.156 --> 0:12:36.556 conversations going on, and I could only hear one of them. 0:12:36.556 --> 0:12:38.756 And I thought, if only I could hear the other one, 0:12:38.796 --> 0:12:41.996 if only I could understand it. I thought, the reason 0:12:42.076 --> 0:12:45.636 I've always been anxious and depressed is because all I 0:12:45.676 --> 0:12:48.716 can ever understand is bad things. People don't like me, 0:12:48.796 --> 0:12:51.276 people think I'm whatever. They're going to fire me, they're 0:12:51.276 --> 0:12:54.356 going to throw me out. But maybe there's this whole 0:12:54.876 --> 0:12:57.396 other set of messages where people really love me and 0:12:57.396 --> 0:13:00.036 they like me and they want it, and there's good messages. 0:13:00.396 --> 0:13:02.196 Maybe all I can get of the bad ones, and 0:13:02.236 --> 0:13:05.036 if I could fix that, and I would be happy. 0:13:05.956 --> 0:13:08.636 And that was this like fantasy I built up in 0:13:08.676 --> 0:13:12.156 my mind. And so when she came along and she said, 0:13:12.316 --> 0:13:14.916 we're doing the study. Hoping to do that. I thought, well, 0:13:14.916 --> 0:13:19.836 maybe it would work, Maybe that would happen for me. Yeah, 0:13:19.876 --> 0:13:23.916 you know, you've written that autism gave you, quote a 0:13:24.076 --> 0:13:28.036 mixture of disabilities and gifts. Can you share more about 0:13:28.076 --> 0:13:31.036 this and how it affected your decision to enroll in 0:13:31.036 --> 0:13:35.156 this study. So the way the way autism had kind 0:13:35.156 --> 0:13:38.196 of played out for me by that time in my life. 0:13:39.436 --> 0:13:43.476 The average person couldn't see into machinery the way I could, 0:13:44.076 --> 0:13:51.236 and the average person couldn't they couldn't focus on details 0:13:51.276 --> 0:13:55.196 of things the way I could. I still, even without 0:13:55.276 --> 0:13:59.076 understanding that I had gifts, I thought that my gifts 0:13:59.796 --> 0:14:03.676 were in the category of something in a freak show. 0:14:04.116 --> 0:14:06.956 You know. Sure they were gifts, but they weren't gifts 0:14:06.956 --> 0:14:10.676 that most people cared about, and the things most people 0:14:10.716 --> 0:14:16.396 do care about I couldn't do. So I felt that 0:14:17.556 --> 0:14:22.196 the more I could understand emotional cues, the more I 0:14:22.316 --> 0:14:25.556 might be able to be like other people. And I 0:14:25.636 --> 0:14:28.876 wanted to be able to do that. Yeah, you know, 0:14:28.876 --> 0:14:32.636 it reveals so much to me about where you're at 0:14:32.676 --> 0:14:36.596 psychologically with respect your self image and self perception that 0:14:37.036 --> 0:14:39.516 you would want to jump at this opportunity, right, and 0:14:39.956 --> 0:14:42.356 you know, just to let listeners in on the specifics 0:14:42.396 --> 0:14:44.836 of this study that you were signing up for. It 0:14:44.876 --> 0:14:49.196 was not without risk, right. It used TMS transcranial magnetic 0:14:49.196 --> 0:14:53.996 stimulation to activate specific areas of your brain using high 0:14:53.996 --> 0:14:57.396 power and magnetic fields. I mean it's hard to imagine 0:14:57.396 --> 0:15:00.556 not having a little bit of trepidation, right, some fear 0:15:00.716 --> 0:15:05.156 associated with getting enrolled in this kind of study? Is 0:15:05.196 --> 0:15:08.756 that right? You know, you might have thought of it 0:15:08.876 --> 0:15:14.236 that way as a person who was educated in neuroscience. 0:15:16.436 --> 0:15:22.836 I didn't see it that way. The idea of TMS was, 0:15:23.636 --> 0:15:27.396 or is that they take a coil of wire, which 0:15:27.436 --> 0:15:33.276 is the basis for an electromagnet, and they fire a 0:15:33.316 --> 0:15:36.476 bunch of electricity into it and it induces a powerful 0:15:36.516 --> 0:15:38.996 magnetic field in that wire. They would put that on 0:15:39.036 --> 0:15:42.436 your head, and so they would fire a pulse of 0:15:42.836 --> 0:15:46.196 magnetic energy into your head when they put electricity into 0:15:46.196 --> 0:15:52.156 the wire. Well, I had worked with really really powerful 0:15:53.036 --> 0:15:57.716 coils of wire and magnets in making sound systems. And 0:15:57.956 --> 0:16:00.836 it's funny because so many people in retrospect they said, 0:16:00.876 --> 0:16:03.196 weren't you scared of that? And no, because of my 0:16:03.236 --> 0:16:06.996 background and making high power electronic systems, I was scared 0:16:07.036 --> 0:16:10.516 at all. I thought, bring it on. Wow, that's so interesting. 0:16:11.876 --> 0:16:13.716 I want to push you a little more here though, right, 0:16:13.756 --> 0:16:17.956 Because it's one thing to be building electronic equipment, it's 0:16:17.996 --> 0:16:22.716 another thing to have specific parts of your brain activated 0:16:22.716 --> 0:16:29.276 by technology. I just I really thought there was I 0:16:29.316 --> 0:16:31.636 thought there was just like so much more that I 0:16:31.716 --> 0:16:34.796 was missing, and if I could possibly see it, it 0:16:34.836 --> 0:16:40.596 would be it would be huge revelation for me. It 0:16:40.596 --> 0:16:44.636 would be such a huge positive thing. Was your family 0:16:45.076 --> 0:16:49.356 as enthusiastic about this as you were? Oh? My family 0:16:49.396 --> 0:16:52.796 wanted enthusiastic at all. And my wife, she said, you know, 0:16:52.996 --> 0:16:56.796 when it comes to getting involved in experiments to change myself, 0:16:56.796 --> 0:16:58.676 she said, you're good just the way you are. Why 0:16:58.676 --> 0:17:01.756 do you want to change yourself? And I said, I 0:17:01.876 --> 0:17:04.516 want to. I want to feel like other people. I 0:17:04.556 --> 0:17:07.476 want to have people want to be my friend and stuff. 0:17:07.476 --> 0:17:09.796 And she said, people do want to be your friend, 0:17:09.876 --> 0:17:14.196 people like you you have friends, And I said, well, 0:17:14.356 --> 0:17:18.476 I just feel like there's something more. You know, So 0:17:18.596 --> 0:17:23.836 you decide to enroll in the TMS studies, and I'm 0:17:23.836 --> 0:17:26.996 wondering if you can set the scene for me, you know, 0:17:27.116 --> 0:17:30.276 to do the study. They said to me, well, we're 0:17:30.316 --> 0:17:33.996 going to stimulate these different areas of your brain, and 0:17:34.196 --> 0:17:37.556 the way we're going to tell if anything happens is 0:17:37.596 --> 0:17:41.196 we're going to show you on a computer monitor, people 0:17:41.276 --> 0:17:46.036 making faces, people doing things, and we're going to ask 0:17:46.236 --> 0:17:49.796 is it jealous, is it anxious? Is it eager? You know, 0:17:50.036 --> 0:17:53.556 they'll have these different emotions, and you'll push buttons for 0:17:53.636 --> 0:17:57.516 what you're seeing. And they said, we don't care if 0:17:57.556 --> 0:18:00.876 you don't get it right, then we're going to do 0:18:00.956 --> 0:18:03.156 this stimulation on you and we're going to put you 0:18:03.276 --> 0:18:04.796 right back in front of the machine, will show you 0:18:04.836 --> 0:18:08.156 another set of faces, and we'll see if your responses 0:18:08.156 --> 0:18:11.316 are more or less accurate or the same. That's that's 0:18:11.316 --> 0:18:14.116 how we'll tell. So they put the images in front 0:18:14.116 --> 0:18:17.556 of me before the stimulation, and I didn't I didn't 0:18:17.556 --> 0:18:20.876 have a single idea what I was seeing. So then 0:18:21.556 --> 0:18:25.476 they sit me down and they start firing these pulses. 0:18:25.556 --> 0:18:29.916 It's one pulse a second, and the thing goes click, click, click, 0:18:30.596 --> 0:18:32.956 and every time it would fire, it would make a 0:18:33.036 --> 0:18:35.756 pop and I would feel this like twitch on the 0:18:35.756 --> 0:18:39.316 top of my scalp, which they told me was the 0:18:39.476 --> 0:18:44.276 energy from the magnetic field triggering muscles. In my scalp, 0:18:44.836 --> 0:18:47.116 and so I was sitting there and all of a sudden, 0:18:47.196 --> 0:18:49.076 she lifts the thing off away from my head and 0:18:49.116 --> 0:18:50.716 she said, come on quick, we got to test you. 0:18:50.756 --> 0:18:54.756 And I realized half an hour had passed, and so 0:18:54.996 --> 0:18:56.756 I go over. You know, it's just like ten feet 0:18:56.796 --> 0:18:58.436 and I move across the room and I sit down 0:18:59.956 --> 0:19:03.156 and the faces fly in front of me, and I 0:19:03.196 --> 0:19:06.396 pushed the buttons and I still don't have any idea, 0:19:06.516 --> 0:19:10.676 And I thought, well, kind of fool was I? You know, 0:19:10.756 --> 0:19:14.316 I imagined that I'm going to look at those faces 0:19:14.356 --> 0:19:16.356 again and I'm going to know every single one of them. 0:19:16.356 --> 0:19:20.956 Well I didn't. I didn't know anything. So she says, okay, 0:19:20.996 --> 0:19:23.956 that's good. And I said, well how did I do? 0:19:24.236 --> 0:19:26.156 And she says, well, I don't know how you did, 0:19:26.196 --> 0:19:27.836 but even if I did, I couldn't tell you because 0:19:27.836 --> 0:19:32.796 it's a study. So I go out down to garage 0:19:32.836 --> 0:19:34.316 and I get in my car. So I'm like two 0:19:34.316 --> 0:19:40.316 hours from home. And so when I drive out, I 0:19:40.356 --> 0:19:44.636 always would play old music and I had a lot 0:19:44.676 --> 0:19:49.796 of an old concerts, old bootleg recordings I could listen to, 0:19:50.036 --> 0:19:53.716 and I put on recording and this um, this show 0:19:53.916 --> 0:19:57.956 of a band called a Tavaris, And so I put 0:19:57.996 --> 0:20:02.716 on this show and I start playing, and it was 0:20:02.956 --> 0:20:07.156 like I stepped into a musical hallucination. It's like I 0:20:07.196 --> 0:20:10.356 was back there at the show and I could I 0:20:10.396 --> 0:20:12.996 could like almost smell it, and I could feel it, 0:20:13.076 --> 0:20:17.636 and it was it was just an overpowering thing listening 0:20:17.676 --> 0:20:21.436 to it, and it drove along and it was Yeah, 0:20:21.796 --> 0:20:25.316 it was so overwhelming that it made me cry. I 0:20:25.476 --> 0:20:28.556 pulled over and I was just crying. And all the 0:20:28.676 --> 0:20:32.436 years I had worked in music, I didn't feel the 0:20:32.516 --> 0:20:36.556 emotion of the music. I felt was it technically correct, 0:20:36.676 --> 0:20:39.796 but I didn't feel was it happy? Was it sad? 0:20:39.996 --> 0:20:42.836 Was it longing? Was it wistful? I didn't feel those things, 0:20:43.356 --> 0:20:45.756 and of course that's what made me a good engineer. 0:20:48.396 --> 0:20:51.036 But now I was feeling the emotion of it, and 0:20:51.076 --> 0:20:58.716 it was just overwhelming. And I thought to myself, this 0:20:58.996 --> 0:21:04.796 must be what all those people in the audience were 0:21:04.916 --> 0:21:09.796 feeling when they listened to those shows. Ought back and 0:21:10.636 --> 0:21:13.276 all those concerts I had been at and people were 0:21:14.316 --> 0:21:17.636 crying and they were singing and they were smiling, and 0:21:17.676 --> 0:21:20.916 I would see like tears, you know, from people, and 0:21:20.956 --> 0:21:24.516 I'd just be I'd just be standing there looking out 0:21:25.516 --> 0:21:31.196 thinking it's working. The system, it's doing what we wanted 0:21:31.196 --> 0:21:34.596 it to do. The musicians are up there playing and 0:21:34.996 --> 0:21:38.756 our sound equipment is working. But I never felt the 0:21:38.836 --> 0:21:43.516 feelings of the audience. And I went home and it 0:21:43.596 --> 0:21:47.196 was really late by then, and I sent an email 0:21:47.276 --> 0:21:49.116 to the doctor and I said, this is like some 0:21:49.276 --> 0:21:54.956 really powerful stuff. This has happened. And I sat awake 0:21:55.076 --> 0:21:58.596 all night and I just listened to old music, just 0:21:58.716 --> 0:22:03.716 sitting listening to it, and it was like dawn, and 0:22:03.836 --> 0:22:09.156 it finally the brilliance kind of faded away, and I 0:22:09.156 --> 0:22:13.956 I went to sleep and it was was just an 0:22:13.996 --> 0:22:27.436 amazing night. Will be back in a moment with a 0:22:27.476 --> 0:22:35.316 slight change of plans. So John Elder Robeson volunteered to 0:22:35.356 --> 0:22:38.836 participate in a pioneering study run by a teaching hospital 0:22:38.876 --> 0:22:43.596 out of Harvard Medical School. The study used transcranial magnetic stimulation, 0:22:43.956 --> 0:22:48.916 or TMS, which uses electromagnetic pulses to stimulate nerve cells. 0:22:49.676 --> 0:22:53.836 The impact of TMS on things like migraines, obsessive compulsive disorder, 0:22:54.116 --> 0:22:58.676 and major depressive disorder are relatively well understood, but less 0:22:58.676 --> 0:23:02.396 so the impact of TMS on people on the autism spectrum, 0:23:02.436 --> 0:23:04.956 and the two thousand and eight study that John participated 0:23:04.956 --> 0:23:09.076 in was entirely exploratory. It was a research study that 0:23:09.196 --> 0:23:12.796 recruited those with Asperger's, a diagnostic category still used at 0:23:12.836 --> 0:23:16.236 that time, and it's worth noting that among the participants 0:23:16.276 --> 0:23:20.316 in the study, John's response was singular and highly unusual 0:23:20.396 --> 0:23:23.476 in its expression, and it had a complex impact on 0:23:23.556 --> 0:23:26.876 John's life. It changed his understanding of himself in a 0:23:26.916 --> 0:23:31.156 profound way and affected the relationships in his life, including 0:23:31.156 --> 0:23:33.196 with his wife and the folks in the car shop. 0:23:33.836 --> 0:23:36.076 I went to work and one of the guys was 0:23:36.116 --> 0:23:40.596 it was in the hall and looked at him and 0:23:40.716 --> 0:23:47.996 I thought, he has the most beautiful brown eyes. And 0:23:48.236 --> 0:23:51.956 then it'd like hit me. I thought, what's going on 0:23:52.076 --> 0:23:57.076 with me? I had never ever in my life had 0:23:57.116 --> 0:24:02.756 a thought he has beautiful brown eyes. But of course 0:24:02.796 --> 0:24:06.276 I had heard that. People had said all old blue eyes, 0:24:06.316 --> 0:24:08.436 and you're such pretty blue eyes and pretty, you know. 0:24:08.716 --> 0:24:12.676 I heard it, but I had never ever had that thought. 0:24:13.836 --> 0:24:16.796 And then I went into the waiting room and there 0:24:16.796 --> 0:24:20.036 were people out there, and I looked at people and 0:24:20.116 --> 0:24:25.836 I thought, she's really anxious, really scared. And I never 0:24:25.956 --> 0:24:28.476 had a feeling like that before. I mean, I would 0:24:28.476 --> 0:24:31.676 go in the waiting room and my logical brain would 0:24:31.716 --> 0:24:34.356 tell me they're waiting to know what's wrong with their car. 0:24:34.876 --> 0:24:37.876 But never ever did I look at someone and think 0:24:38.356 --> 0:24:43.756 she's really scared. And I actually I said to the 0:24:43.796 --> 0:24:46.276 person in the waiting room, I said, don't worry, it'll 0:24:46.316 --> 0:24:50.876 be okay. She kind of smiled at me, and I thought, 0:24:51.996 --> 0:24:54.556 this is like magic. This has never happened to me. 0:24:56.116 --> 0:25:01.436 And lest you think that my life was all like 0:25:01.596 --> 0:25:04.356 beauty and sweetness and light from that moment on, it 0:25:04.436 --> 0:25:11.036 wasn't that way. Because I went and I went, you know, 0:25:11.076 --> 0:25:15.076 as a big shopping center where I live, and I'm 0:25:15.116 --> 0:25:17.396 walking through the mall and I'm just like looking around 0:25:17.396 --> 0:25:21.356 at the people, and it was not beauty and sweetness 0:25:21.356 --> 0:25:24.956 and light. It was like fear and anxiety and worry 0:25:24.996 --> 0:25:27.996 and jealousy and all these things that they're all coming 0:25:28.076 --> 0:25:30.956 at me from a million different directions, and it's just 0:25:30.996 --> 0:25:36.876 like this wave of emotion. And I thought, holy shit, 0:25:37.036 --> 0:25:41.276 I thought, what kind of fool was I now? And 0:25:41.316 --> 0:25:45.356 you know, as I went through life, that faded away, luckily, 0:25:46.956 --> 0:25:51.236 but that meaning my ability to see those emotions and 0:25:51.316 --> 0:25:57.756 people dissipated over the next few weeks, but while it lasted, 0:25:58.676 --> 0:26:04.476 it was overwhelming. It was like devastating to me. I mean, 0:26:04.516 --> 0:26:09.396 I so appreciate the complexity you describe and from what 0:26:09.436 --> 0:26:15.276 I understand, while the very acute results of the TMS 0:26:15.396 --> 0:26:19.276 have dissipated over time, there is this element of you 0:26:19.396 --> 0:26:24.756 can't unsee what you've seen, right, and you are you're 0:26:24.796 --> 0:26:28.756 altered permanently from this experience in terms of your perspective 0:26:28.796 --> 0:26:33.676 of the world. And I also felt like my dream 0:26:34.356 --> 0:26:37.076 was kind of shattered, this idea that if I could 0:26:37.156 --> 0:26:40.236 see these things in other people, my life would be beautiful. 0:26:41.116 --> 0:26:47.356 And so now we are thirteen years since that first 0:26:47.556 --> 0:26:55.876 TMS experience, and I guess, I guess I never imagined 0:26:55.956 --> 0:26:59.196 that just a brief experience like that could change your 0:26:59.196 --> 0:27:03.516 life forever. The way I guess I could explain it, 0:27:04.516 --> 0:27:08.716 and maybe it's an explanation, is if you're a color 0:27:08.796 --> 0:27:13.396 blind person and you grow up and you imagine people 0:27:13.396 --> 0:27:16.596 are talking about the beautiful blue sky, pretty red shirt, 0:27:16.836 --> 0:27:20.156 nice green grass, and of course to you, it's all 0:27:20.196 --> 0:27:22.396 shades of gray, and you start thinking it's just bullshit, 0:27:22.436 --> 0:27:25.236 and it just makes you angry. It's blue yellow, green talk. 0:27:25.276 --> 0:27:27.076 It's all the same. You know it. You know the 0:27:27.156 --> 0:27:30.196 evidence of your eyes. And you go into some doctor's 0:27:30.236 --> 0:27:32.516 office and they do something to you, and you walk out, 0:27:32.596 --> 0:27:35.756 you see color and you realize, holy shit, these people 0:27:35.796 --> 0:27:38.316