1 00:00:14,916 --> 00:00:34,756 Speaker 1: Pushkin. I was never a socially skilled kid. I never 2 00:00:34,836 --> 00:00:37,316 Speaker 1: knew what to say. Someone would come up to me 3 00:00:37,356 --> 00:00:41,436 Speaker 1: and they would say, look at my new doll, and 4 00:00:41,476 --> 00:00:45,116 Speaker 1: I would say, I like elephants, and they would just 5 00:00:45,196 --> 00:00:48,156 Speaker 1: like look at me. And I never understood what I 6 00:00:48,196 --> 00:00:51,276 Speaker 1: did wrong. I was always saying and doing the wrong thing. 7 00:00:52,476 --> 00:00:55,916 Speaker 1: That's John Elder Robeson. He's always had a gift for 8 00:00:56,036 --> 00:01:00,276 Speaker 1: understanding machines versus a sound engineer, then as a car mechanic. 9 00:01:01,036 --> 00:01:03,436 Speaker 1: But the one thing he always felt was lacking was 10 00:01:03,476 --> 00:01:06,996 Speaker 1: his ability to connect with people emotionally. He says he 11 00:01:07,076 --> 00:01:11,076 Speaker 1: often felt depressed and anxious about his interactions, and over 12 00:01:11,116 --> 00:01:13,316 Speaker 1: the years he'd done a number of things to try 13 00:01:13,316 --> 00:01:17,196 Speaker 1: and foster a deeper connection with others. Then in two 14 00:01:17,236 --> 00:01:21,276 Speaker 1: thousand and eight, John came across a unique opportunity. He 15 00:01:21,356 --> 00:01:24,276 Speaker 1: was given the chance to participate in an experimental brain 16 00:01:24,356 --> 00:01:28,236 Speaker 1: study that he hoped would quote increase his emotional sensitivity. 17 00:01:29,516 --> 00:01:35,996 Speaker 1: I so much wanted to do that because when I 18 00:01:36,036 --> 00:01:41,876 Speaker 1: had learned that there were these facial expressions, and there 19 00:01:41,876 --> 00:01:47,396 Speaker 1: were these whole like unspoken conversations that happened between so 20 00:01:47,436 --> 00:01:51,916 Speaker 1: called normal people, and I couldn't yet them. It was 21 00:01:51,996 --> 00:01:54,716 Speaker 1: like there were two whole conversations going on, and I 22 00:01:54,756 --> 00:01:56,476 Speaker 1: could only hear one of them. And I thought, if 23 00:01:56,516 --> 00:01:58,836 Speaker 1: only I could hear the other one, if only I 24 00:01:58,836 --> 00:02:02,676 Speaker 1: could understand it, I would be happy. And that was 25 00:02:02,716 --> 00:02:05,796 Speaker 1: this like fantasy I built up in my mind that 26 00:02:05,876 --> 00:02:08,116 Speaker 1: if I could see these things and other people, my 27 00:02:08,276 --> 00:02:14,516 Speaker 1: life would be beautiful. On today's episode, when you discover 28 00:02:14,676 --> 00:02:17,156 Speaker 1: that the thing you most wanted to change about yourself 29 00:02:17,436 --> 00:02:23,276 Speaker 1: didn't actually need changing. I'm maya Shunker and this is 30 00:02:23,316 --> 00:02:26,116 Speaker 1: a slight change of plans, a show about who we 31 00:02:26,156 --> 00:02:28,716 Speaker 1: are and who we become in the face of a 32 00:02:28,756 --> 00:02:42,996 Speaker 1: big change. The core of John's story takes place in 33 00:02:43,036 --> 00:02:45,516 Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties and nineties, when he was working as 34 00:02:45,556 --> 00:02:49,276 Speaker 1: a car mechanic in Springfield, Massachusetts. But as you'll hear, 35 00:02:49,436 --> 00:02:52,356 Speaker 1: John's had many careers over the years, and we started 36 00:02:52,396 --> 00:02:54,516 Speaker 1: at our conversation by talking about his time in the 37 00:02:54,596 --> 00:02:57,916 Speaker 1: music business. He has a rare ear for technical detail, 38 00:02:58,236 --> 00:03:00,556 Speaker 1: and in the nineteen seventies he worked as a sound 39 00:03:00,596 --> 00:03:04,356 Speaker 1: engineer for the likes of Kiss and Diana Ross. I 40 00:03:04,396 --> 00:03:10,996 Speaker 1: think that people felt that I could see into the amplifiers, 41 00:03:10,996 --> 00:03:14,196 Speaker 1: and I could see into the electronic systems, and I 42 00:03:14,316 --> 00:03:19,316 Speaker 1: felt like I could see it. You know, I could 43 00:03:19,436 --> 00:03:25,156 Speaker 1: stand out at the mixing desk at a concert, which was, 44 00:03:25,276 --> 00:03:29,716 Speaker 1: you know, running my equipment, and you know, I could 45 00:03:29,756 --> 00:03:33,356 Speaker 1: push It's like pushing the throttles on a powerful boat. 46 00:03:33,436 --> 00:03:35,396 Speaker 1: You know, I could push it up and I could 47 00:03:35,476 --> 00:03:39,476 Speaker 1: feel that this is just how far you can push 48 00:03:39,516 --> 00:03:42,316 Speaker 1: it before you blow it up. And I think that 49 00:03:42,316 --> 00:03:46,796 Speaker 1: that was a gift that was relatively uncommon. And that 50 00:03:46,876 --> 00:03:49,076 Speaker 1: was the thing I loved about it. I loved I 51 00:03:49,156 --> 00:03:53,556 Speaker 1: loved making the equipment thing for all those people. Oh, 52 00:03:53,596 --> 00:03:55,796 Speaker 1: I love that. It's a very beautiful portrayal of what 53 00:03:55,836 --> 00:03:59,356 Speaker 1: it means to work in sound. You ended up becoming 54 00:03:59,396 --> 00:04:02,356 Speaker 1: interested in cars, right, which is what you do right now? 55 00:04:03,236 --> 00:04:05,796 Speaker 1: Why is it that you decided to eventually leave your 56 00:04:05,876 --> 00:04:10,996 Speaker 1: musical career behind when it got to dealing with people? 57 00:04:11,116 --> 00:04:17,396 Speaker 1: Because music was my first job. The musicians appreciated what 58 00:04:17,596 --> 00:04:22,476 Speaker 1: I could create, but other people thought that I was 59 00:04:23,796 --> 00:04:28,276 Speaker 1: strange or bizarre or you know whatever. And I thought, well, 60 00:04:28,276 --> 00:04:32,756 Speaker 1: what could I do? And I always had had this 61 00:04:32,916 --> 00:04:36,916 Speaker 1: love of machinery and cars, and I thought, you know, 62 00:04:37,156 --> 00:04:41,356 Speaker 1: I'm just gonna be a mechanic. And I turned out 63 00:04:41,356 --> 00:04:44,956 Speaker 1: to have a gift for understanding automotive machines, just the 64 00:04:44,996 --> 00:04:49,356 Speaker 1: way I had understood musical machines and other kinds of electronics. 65 00:04:49,916 --> 00:04:55,116 Speaker 1: I left, and I kind of never looked back. I'm wondering, John, 66 00:04:55,556 --> 00:04:57,156 Speaker 1: can you bring me back to the day in your 67 00:04:57,196 --> 00:04:59,996 Speaker 1: car shop when your client surprised you with a book. 68 00:05:01,396 --> 00:05:06,036 Speaker 1: I had always been kind of a social failure, but 69 00:05:06,836 --> 00:05:12,436 Speaker 1: at my car business I had to learn enough social skills. 70 00:05:12,476 --> 00:05:14,796 Speaker 1: I guessed that people would come back a second time, 71 00:05:15,436 --> 00:05:17,596 Speaker 1: and I spent a fair amount of time talking to 72 00:05:17,676 --> 00:05:20,796 Speaker 1: the customers that would sit in the waiting room and 73 00:05:20,876 --> 00:05:23,276 Speaker 1: wait for their cars, and I got to know him. 74 00:05:23,436 --> 00:05:25,556 Speaker 1: Some of them came in over a period of years. 75 00:05:25,636 --> 00:05:30,796 Speaker 1: One fellow was a therapist and comes in one day 76 00:05:30,836 --> 00:05:32,636 Speaker 1: and he says, you know, John, I've heard you tell 77 00:05:32,676 --> 00:05:36,396 Speaker 1: me how alone you feel many times. And I've heard 78 00:05:36,436 --> 00:05:39,276 Speaker 1: you tell me like you feel like you're standing in 79 00:05:39,316 --> 00:05:41,756 Speaker 1: the rain outside looking in the windows at all the 80 00:05:41,796 --> 00:05:43,876 Speaker 1: people standing by a fire, and you don't know how 81 00:05:43,916 --> 00:05:46,676 Speaker 1: to get in and be with them. And he said, 82 00:05:48,076 --> 00:05:50,396 Speaker 1: you know, there's a thing that we're talking about in 83 00:05:50,436 --> 00:05:54,756 Speaker 1: the mental health community that kind of explains that is 84 00:05:54,796 --> 00:05:58,916 Speaker 1: called asperger syndrome. It's a kind of autism. And I 85 00:05:59,036 --> 00:06:02,716 Speaker 1: just looked at him and I thought autism. Then he 86 00:06:02,796 --> 00:06:07,276 Speaker 1: pulls out this book. It was called Asperger Syndrome. It 87 00:06:07,356 --> 00:06:10,836 Speaker 1: was by a doctor Tony At and he says, look, 88 00:06:10,916 --> 00:06:16,076 Speaker 1: he says, it's people like you and can't read facial expressions, 89 00:06:16,196 --> 00:06:21,756 Speaker 1: can't tell when somebody's angry or somebody said say inappropriate things, 90 00:06:21,756 --> 00:06:25,276 Speaker 1: and get people upset, to have difficulty looking other people 91 00:06:25,276 --> 00:06:28,356 Speaker 1: in the eye, and other folks think that they're being 92 00:06:28,556 --> 00:06:31,716 Speaker 1: tricky or evasive, and like everything he's saying to me 93 00:06:31,956 --> 00:06:37,156 Speaker 1: is me. And I'm listening to that. And first I 94 00:06:37,196 --> 00:06:39,476 Speaker 1: was like stunned at him telling me that I had 95 00:06:39,516 --> 00:06:44,356 Speaker 1: this kind of autism. And then as he kept saying 96 00:06:44,396 --> 00:06:46,316 Speaker 1: this is it, and this and this and this and 97 00:06:46,396 --> 00:06:48,596 Speaker 1: every one of those things with me, and it was 98 00:06:48,676 --> 00:06:53,436 Speaker 1: just it was just shocking. It's just like totally came 99 00:06:53,476 --> 00:06:55,996 Speaker 1: out of the blue. It's not like I was sitting 100 00:06:56,036 --> 00:06:58,836 Speaker 1: in a therapist's office saying, doctor, tell me what's wrong 101 00:06:58,876 --> 00:07:02,156 Speaker 1: with me. It's like I was sitting behind the desk 102 00:07:02,196 --> 00:07:06,516 Speaker 1: at my car repair place and this is just thrust 103 00:07:06,556 --> 00:07:10,876 Speaker 1: in front of me, and it was shocking, you're having 104 00:07:10,916 --> 00:07:15,436 Speaker 1: this this life changing moment, and I'm wondering what did 105 00:07:15,476 --> 00:07:17,676 Speaker 1: it feel like to have this kind of clarity for 106 00:07:17,716 --> 00:07:25,356 Speaker 1: the first time. Well, my first thought was, Okay, if 107 00:07:25,396 --> 00:07:29,196 Speaker 1: I have this Asberger thing, how do I get cured? 108 00:07:30,716 --> 00:07:34,796 Speaker 1: And he said, well, it's not a disease. It's just 109 00:07:34,916 --> 00:07:39,116 Speaker 1: how you are. People with autism that's how they are, 110 00:07:39,156 --> 00:07:42,196 Speaker 1: and people with Asperger's that's how you are. He says, 111 00:07:42,276 --> 00:07:46,796 Speaker 1: it's like being short or tall or you know whatever, 112 00:07:46,916 --> 00:07:52,916 Speaker 1: it's just it's how you are. But then after it 113 00:07:52,996 --> 00:07:56,676 Speaker 1: sinks in there's no cure. Well, now I know I 114 00:07:56,756 --> 00:07:58,956 Speaker 1: have all this trouble and it's never going to end. 115 00:08:00,156 --> 00:08:04,476 Speaker 1: And I was really sad, but I couldn't help reading 116 00:08:04,596 --> 00:08:09,996 Speaker 1: the book he had left me. And at first I thought, wow, 117 00:08:10,516 --> 00:08:14,436 Speaker 1: people told me I was mental and stupid and sociopathic 118 00:08:14,476 --> 00:08:18,316 Speaker 1: and stuff. All my life I heard these kinds of things, 119 00:08:18,676 --> 00:08:22,676 Speaker 1: and now here he is telling me I've not any 120 00:08:22,716 --> 00:08:27,916 Speaker 1: of those things. I'm a person with this Asperger's and 121 00:08:28,036 --> 00:08:30,636 Speaker 1: that explains why I've had all this trouble in my life. 122 00:08:31,636 --> 00:08:36,836 Speaker 1: But gradually I realized I can take the knowledge from 123 00:08:36,876 --> 00:08:40,636 Speaker 1: that book and I can teach myself to act differently. 124 00:08:40,956 --> 00:08:43,196 Speaker 1: I can teach myself that even if it makes me 125 00:08:43,276 --> 00:08:46,396 Speaker 1: uncomfortable to look in your eyes when you're talking to me, 126 00:08:46,756 --> 00:08:48,956 Speaker 1: I can look at your cheeks, I can look at 127 00:08:48,996 --> 00:08:52,796 Speaker 1: your mouth. And when I did that, it was kind 128 00:08:52,796 --> 00:08:58,756 Speaker 1: of amazing because people responded better to me, even though 129 00:08:58,876 --> 00:09:03,836 Speaker 1: I couldn't tell about people's body language and expressions. After 130 00:09:03,876 --> 00:09:09,356 Speaker 1: reading Atwood's book, I understood that I would get too 131 00:09:09,356 --> 00:09:11,476 Speaker 1: close to people and I would make them feel threatened. 132 00:09:11,836 --> 00:09:13,876 Speaker 1: So I could just make a rule. If I held 133 00:09:13,956 --> 00:09:16,316 Speaker 1: my arm out in front of me, I could say, 134 00:09:16,396 --> 00:09:19,756 Speaker 1: I won't get any closer to you than two arms 135 00:09:19,796 --> 00:09:22,556 Speaker 1: lengths when we're talking in the waiting room. And I 136 00:09:22,676 --> 00:09:26,836 Speaker 1: began to see that I could change how I behaved 137 00:09:26,956 --> 00:09:30,476 Speaker 1: and it really changed my life for the better. And 138 00:09:31,036 --> 00:09:33,756 Speaker 1: that's when I started to go from feeling, oh boy, 139 00:09:33,836 --> 00:09:37,036 Speaker 1: you know, I understand why I had all this trouble, 140 00:09:37,156 --> 00:09:41,716 Speaker 1: but it's hopeless to thinking, you know, I can change 141 00:09:41,756 --> 00:09:47,236 Speaker 1: my life completely with this knowledge. And that was a really, 142 00:09:47,396 --> 00:09:50,116 Speaker 1: really big deal for me. Did it lead you to 143 00:09:50,196 --> 00:09:54,756 Speaker 1: reinterpret your past? You'd had experiences with depression? Did it 144 00:09:54,836 --> 00:10:00,356 Speaker 1: help you understand aspects of that differently? Now? The thing 145 00:10:00,516 --> 00:10:08,596 Speaker 1: I had always wanted was to feel like I was 146 00:10:11,276 --> 00:10:20,116 Speaker 1: a normal person, and so when I learned about autism, 147 00:10:20,156 --> 00:10:24,676 Speaker 1: I had an explanation for why things had gone wrong 148 00:10:24,716 --> 00:10:28,236 Speaker 1: with me and for why I was a second rate person. 149 00:10:29,756 --> 00:10:35,116 Speaker 1: And I have to say that today we have this, 150 00:10:36,396 --> 00:10:40,836 Speaker 1: you know, really different autism awareness. And to say that 151 00:10:40,916 --> 00:10:43,596 Speaker 1: I was a second rate person, that's like a bad 152 00:10:43,596 --> 00:10:45,916 Speaker 1: thing to say now, but you know, that's how I felt. 153 00:10:45,996 --> 00:10:50,956 Speaker 1: I felt like I was second rate and and I 154 00:10:51,076 --> 00:10:55,436 Speaker 1: wanted so much to be normal, and so I thought, 155 00:10:56,996 --> 00:11:03,956 Speaker 1: you know, I should write my own story about growing 156 00:11:04,076 --> 00:11:10,276 Speaker 1: up and learning about this asperger autism thing. And that 157 00:11:10,396 --> 00:11:13,916 Speaker 1: was what gave me the courage to write what became 158 00:11:13,996 --> 00:11:16,996 Speaker 1: Look Me in the Eye. And the book came out 159 00:11:17,996 --> 00:11:21,996 Speaker 1: and all these people started reading it, and you know, 160 00:11:22,116 --> 00:11:25,796 Speaker 1: one of the people who read it was this postdoctoral 161 00:11:25,876 --> 00:11:30,276 Speaker 1: researcher at Harvard Medical School, and she showed up at 162 00:11:30,316 --> 00:11:33,796 Speaker 1: a talk I was doing in a bookstore, and she said, 163 00:11:35,316 --> 00:11:41,876 Speaker 1: we're doing a study that's aimed at possibly helping autistic 164 00:11:41,956 --> 00:11:48,676 Speaker 1: people see emotional cues and read expressions in other people. 165 00:11:49,356 --> 00:11:54,996 Speaker 1: And we're hoping that your talks are attracting autistic people 166 00:11:55,236 --> 00:11:58,556 Speaker 1: in the audience, and maybe you could hand out flyers 167 00:11:58,556 --> 00:12:01,516 Speaker 1: for our study, and you could attract some volunteers for us. 168 00:12:01,756 --> 00:12:04,556 Speaker 1: And I was like thinking, now i'll tell people, Oh, 169 00:12:04,596 --> 00:12:07,676 Speaker 1: but I want to do it. I just I so 170 00:12:07,756 --> 00:12:14,196 Speaker 1: much wanted to do that because when I had learned 171 00:12:15,916 --> 00:12:22,076 Speaker 1: in that Atwood book that there were these facial expressions 172 00:12:22,076 --> 00:12:26,436 Speaker 1: and there were these whole like unspoken conversations that he 173 00:12:26,516 --> 00:12:31,316 Speaker 1: described that happened between so called normal people, and I 174 00:12:31,356 --> 00:12:34,116 Speaker 1: couldn't get them. It was like there were two whole 175 00:12:34,156 --> 00:12:36,556 Speaker 1: conversations going on, and I could only hear one of them. 176 00:12:36,556 --> 00:12:38,756 Speaker 1: And I thought, if only I could hear the other one, 177 00:12:38,796 --> 00:12:41,996 Speaker 1: if only I could understand it. I thought, the reason 178 00:12:42,076 --> 00:12:45,636 Speaker 1: I've always been anxious and depressed is because all I 179 00:12:45,676 --> 00:12:48,716 Speaker 1: can ever understand is bad things. People don't like me, 180 00:12:48,796 --> 00:12:51,276 Speaker 1: people think I'm whatever. They're going to fire me, they're 181 00:12:51,276 --> 00:12:54,356 Speaker 1: going to throw me out. But maybe there's this whole 182 00:12:54,876 --> 00:12:57,396 Speaker 1: other set of messages where people really love me and 183 00:12:57,396 --> 00:13:00,036 Speaker 1: they like me and they want it, and there's good messages. 184 00:13:00,396 --> 00:13:02,196 Speaker 1: Maybe all I can get of the bad ones, and 185 00:13:02,236 --> 00:13:05,036 Speaker 1: if I could fix that, and I would be happy. 186 00:13:05,956 --> 00:13:08,636 Speaker 1: And that was this like fantasy I built up in 187 00:13:08,676 --> 00:13:12,156 Speaker 1: my mind. And so when she came along and she said, 188 00:13:12,316 --> 00:13:14,916 Speaker 1: we're doing the study. Hoping to do that. I thought, well, 189 00:13:14,916 --> 00:13:19,836 Speaker 1: maybe it would work, Maybe that would happen for me. Yeah, 190 00:13:19,876 --> 00:13:23,916 Speaker 1: you know, you've written that autism gave you, quote a 191 00:13:24,076 --> 00:13:28,036 Speaker 1: mixture of disabilities and gifts. Can you share more about 192 00:13:28,076 --> 00:13:31,036 Speaker 1: this and how it affected your decision to enroll in 193 00:13:31,036 --> 00:13:35,156 Speaker 1: this study. So the way the way autism had kind 194 00:13:35,156 --> 00:13:38,196 Speaker 1: of played out for me by that time in my life. 195 00:13:39,436 --> 00:13:43,476 Speaker 1: The average person couldn't see into machinery the way I could, 196 00:13:44,076 --> 00:13:51,236 Speaker 1: and the average person couldn't they couldn't focus on details 197 00:13:51,276 --> 00:13:55,196 Speaker 1: of things the way I could. I still, even without 198 00:13:55,276 --> 00:13:59,076 Speaker 1: understanding that I had gifts, I thought that my gifts 199 00:13:59,796 --> 00:14:03,676 Speaker 1: were in the category of something in a freak show. 200 00:14:04,116 --> 00:14:06,956 Speaker 1: You know. Sure they were gifts, but they weren't gifts 201 00:14:06,956 --> 00:14:10,676 Speaker 1: that most people cared about, and the things most people 202 00:14:10,716 --> 00:14:16,396 Speaker 1: do care about I couldn't do. So I felt that 203 00:14:17,556 --> 00:14:22,196 Speaker 1: the more I could understand emotional cues, the more I 204 00:14:22,316 --> 00:14:25,556 Speaker 1: might be able to be like other people. And I 205 00:14:25,636 --> 00:14:28,876 Speaker 1: wanted to be able to do that. Yeah, you know, 206 00:14:28,876 --> 00:14:32,636 Speaker 1: it reveals so much to me about where you're at 207 00:14:32,676 --> 00:14:36,596 Speaker 1: psychologically with respect your self image and self perception that 208 00:14:37,036 --> 00:14:39,516 Speaker 1: you would want to jump at this opportunity, right, and 209 00:14:39,956 --> 00:14:42,356 Speaker 1: you know, just to let listeners in on the specifics 210 00:14:42,396 --> 00:14:44,836 Speaker 1: of this study that you were signing up for. It 211 00:14:44,876 --> 00:14:49,196 Speaker 1: was not without risk, right. It used TMS transcranial magnetic 212 00:14:49,196 --> 00:14:53,996 Speaker 1: stimulation to activate specific areas of your brain using high 213 00:14:53,996 --> 00:14:57,396 Speaker 1: power and magnetic fields. I mean it's hard to imagine 214 00:14:57,396 --> 00:15:00,556 Speaker 1: not having a little bit of trepidation, right, some fear 215 00:15:00,716 --> 00:15:05,156 Speaker 1: associated with getting enrolled in this kind of study? Is 216 00:15:05,196 --> 00:15:08,756 Speaker 1: that right? You know, you might have thought of it 217 00:15:08,876 --> 00:15:14,236 Speaker 1: that way as a person who was educated in neuroscience. 218 00:15:16,436 --> 00:15:22,836 Speaker 1: I didn't see it that way. The idea of TMS was, 219 00:15:23,636 --> 00:15:27,396 Speaker 1: or is that they take a coil of wire, which 220 00:15:27,436 --> 00:15:33,276 Speaker 1: is the basis for an electromagnet, and they fire a 221 00:15:33,316 --> 00:15:36,476 Speaker 1: bunch of electricity into it and it induces a powerful 222 00:15:36,516 --> 00:15:38,996 Speaker 1: magnetic field in that wire. They would put that on 223 00:15:39,036 --> 00:15:42,436 Speaker 1: your head, and so they would fire a pulse of 224 00:15:42,836 --> 00:15:46,196 Speaker 1: magnetic energy into your head when they put electricity into 225 00:15:46,196 --> 00:15:52,156 Speaker 1: the wire. Well, I had worked with really really powerful 226 00:15:53,036 --> 00:15:57,716 Speaker 1: coils of wire and magnets in making sound systems. And 227 00:15:57,956 --> 00:16:00,836 Speaker 1: it's funny because so many people in retrospect they said, 228 00:16:00,876 --> 00:16:03,196 Speaker 1: weren't you scared of that? And no, because of my 229 00:16:03,236 --> 00:16:06,996 Speaker 1: background and making high power electronic systems, I was scared 230 00:16:07,036 --> 00:16:10,516 Speaker 1: at all. I thought, bring it on. Wow, that's so interesting. 231 00:16:11,876 --> 00:16:13,716 Speaker 1: I want to push you a little more here though, right, 232 00:16:13,756 --> 00:16:17,956 Speaker 1: Because it's one thing to be building electronic equipment, it's 233 00:16:17,996 --> 00:16:22,716 Speaker 1: another thing to have specific parts of your brain activated 234 00:16:22,716 --> 00:16:29,276 Speaker 1: by technology. I just I really thought there was I 235 00:16:29,316 --> 00:16:31,636 Speaker 1: thought there was just like so much more that I 236 00:16:31,716 --> 00:16:34,796 Speaker 1: was missing, and if I could possibly see it, it 237 00:16:34,836 --> 00:16:40,596 Speaker 1: would be it would be huge revelation for me. It 238 00:16:40,596 --> 00:16:44,636 Speaker 1: would be such a huge positive thing. Was your family 239 00:16:45,076 --> 00:16:49,356 Speaker 1: as enthusiastic about this as you were? Oh? My family 240 00:16:49,396 --> 00:16:52,796 Speaker 1: wanted enthusiastic at all. And my wife, she said, you know, 241 00:16:52,996 --> 00:16:56,796 Speaker 1: when it comes to getting involved in experiments to change myself, 242 00:16:56,796 --> 00:16:58,676 Speaker 1: she said, you're good just the way you are. Why 243 00:16:58,676 --> 00:17:01,756 Speaker 1: do you want to change yourself? And I said, I 244 00:17:01,876 --> 00:17:04,516 Speaker 1: want to. I want to feel like other people. I 245 00:17:04,556 --> 00:17:07,476 Speaker 1: want to have people want to be my friend and stuff. 246 00:17:07,476 --> 00:17:09,796 Speaker 1: And she said, people do want to be your friend, 247 00:17:09,876 --> 00:17:14,196 Speaker 1: people like you you have friends, And I said, well, 248 00:17:14,356 --> 00:17:18,476 Speaker 1: I just feel like there's something more. You know, So 249 00:17:18,596 --> 00:17:23,836 Speaker 1: you decide to enroll in the TMS studies, and I'm 250 00:17:23,836 --> 00:17:26,996 Speaker 1: wondering if you can set the scene for me, you know, 251 00:17:27,116 --> 00:17:30,276 Speaker 1: to do the study. They said to me, well, we're 252 00:17:30,316 --> 00:17:33,996 Speaker 1: going to stimulate these different areas of your brain, and 253 00:17:34,196 --> 00:17:37,556 Speaker 1: the way we're going to tell if anything happens is 254 00:17:37,596 --> 00:17:41,196 Speaker 1: we're going to show you on a computer monitor, people 255 00:17:41,276 --> 00:17:46,036 Speaker 1: making faces, people doing things, and we're going to ask 256 00:17:46,236 --> 00:17:49,796 Speaker 1: is it jealous, is it anxious? Is it eager? You know, 257 00:17:50,036 --> 00:17:53,556 Speaker 1: they'll have these different emotions, and you'll push buttons for 258 00:17:53,636 --> 00:17:57,516 Speaker 1: what you're seeing. And they said, we don't care if 259 00:17:57,556 --> 00:18:00,876 Speaker 1: you don't get it right, then we're going to do 260 00:18:00,956 --> 00:18:03,156 Speaker 1: this stimulation on you and we're going to put you 261 00:18:03,276 --> 00:18:04,796 Speaker 1: right back in front of the machine, will show you 262 00:18:04,836 --> 00:18:08,156 Speaker 1: another set of faces, and we'll see if your responses 263 00:18:08,156 --> 00:18:11,316 Speaker 1: are more or less accurate or the same. That's that's 264 00:18:11,316 --> 00:18:14,116 Speaker 1: how we'll tell. So they put the images in front 265 00:18:14,116 --> 00:18:17,556 Speaker 1: of me before the stimulation, and I didn't I didn't 266 00:18:17,556 --> 00:18:20,876 Speaker 1: have a single idea what I was seeing. So then 267 00:18:21,556 --> 00:18:25,476 Speaker 1: they sit me down and they start firing these pulses. 268 00:18:25,556 --> 00:18:29,916 Speaker 1: It's one pulse a second, and the thing goes click, click, click, 269 00:18:30,596 --> 00:18:32,956 Speaker 1: and every time it would fire, it would make a 270 00:18:33,036 --> 00:18:35,756 Speaker 1: pop and I would feel this like twitch on the 271 00:18:35,756 --> 00:18:39,316 Speaker 1: top of my scalp, which they told me was the 272 00:18:39,476 --> 00:18:44,276 Speaker 1: energy from the magnetic field triggering muscles. In my scalp, 273 00:18:44,836 --> 00:18:47,116 Speaker 1: and so I was sitting there and all of a sudden, 274 00:18:47,196 --> 00:18:49,076 Speaker 1: she lifts the thing off away from my head and 275 00:18:49,116 --> 00:18:50,716 Speaker 1: she said, come on quick, we got to test you. 276 00:18:50,756 --> 00:18:54,756 Speaker 1: And I realized half an hour had passed, and so 277 00:18:54,996 --> 00:18:56,756 Speaker 1: I go over. You know, it's just like ten feet 278 00:18:56,796 --> 00:18:58,436 Speaker 1: and I move across the room and I sit down 279 00:18:59,956 --> 00:19:03,156 Speaker 1: and the faces fly in front of me, and I 280 00:19:03,196 --> 00:19:06,396 Speaker 1: pushed the buttons and I still don't have any idea, 281 00:19:06,516 --> 00:19:10,676 Speaker 1: And I thought, well, kind of fool was I? You know, 282 00:19:10,756 --> 00:19:14,316 Speaker 1: I imagined that I'm going to look at those faces 283 00:19:14,356 --> 00:19:16,356 Speaker 1: again and I'm going to know every single one of them. 284 00:19:16,356 --> 00:19:20,956 Speaker 1: Well I didn't. I didn't know anything. So she says, okay, 285 00:19:20,996 --> 00:19:23,956 Speaker 1: that's good. And I said, well how did I do? 286 00:19:24,236 --> 00:19:26,156 Speaker 1: And she says, well, I don't know how you did, 287 00:19:26,196 --> 00:19:27,836 Speaker 1: but even if I did, I couldn't tell you because 288 00:19:27,836 --> 00:19:32,796 Speaker 1: it's a study. So I go out down to garage 289 00:19:32,836 --> 00:19:34,316 Speaker 1: and I get in my car. So I'm like two 290 00:19:34,316 --> 00:19:40,316 Speaker 1: hours from home. And so when I drive out, I 291 00:19:40,356 --> 00:19:44,636 Speaker 1: always would play old music and I had a lot 292 00:19:44,676 --> 00:19:49,796 Speaker 1: of an old concerts, old bootleg recordings I could listen to, 293 00:19:50,036 --> 00:19:53,716 Speaker 1: and I put on recording and this um, this show 294 00:19:53,916 --> 00:19:57,956 Speaker 1: of a band called a Tavaris, And so I put 295 00:19:57,996 --> 00:20:02,716 Speaker 1: on this show and I start playing, and it was 296 00:20:02,956 --> 00:20:07,156 Speaker 1: like I stepped into a musical hallucination. It's like I 297 00:20:07,196 --> 00:20:10,356 Speaker 1: was back there at the show and I could I 298 00:20:10,396 --> 00:20:12,996 Speaker 1: could like almost smell it, and I could feel it, 299 00:20:13,076 --> 00:20:17,636 Speaker 1: and it was it was just an overpowering thing listening 300 00:20:17,676 --> 00:20:21,436 Speaker 1: to it, and it drove along and it was Yeah, 301 00:20:21,796 --> 00:20:25,316 Speaker 1: it was so overwhelming that it made me cry. I 302 00:20:25,476 --> 00:20:28,556 Speaker 1: pulled over and I was just crying. And all the 303 00:20:28,676 --> 00:20:32,436 Speaker 1: years I had worked in music, I didn't feel the 304 00:20:32,516 --> 00:20:36,556 Speaker 1: emotion of the music. I felt was it technically correct, 305 00:20:36,676 --> 00:20:39,796 Speaker 1: but I didn't feel was it happy? Was it sad? 306 00:20:39,996 --> 00:20:42,836 Speaker 1: Was it longing? Was it wistful? I didn't feel those things, 307 00:20:43,356 --> 00:20:45,756 Speaker 1: and of course that's what made me a good engineer. 308 00:20:48,396 --> 00:20:51,036 Speaker 1: But now I was feeling the emotion of it, and 309 00:20:51,076 --> 00:20:58,716 Speaker 1: it was just overwhelming. And I thought to myself, this 310 00:20:58,996 --> 00:21:04,796 Speaker 1: must be what all those people in the audience were 311 00:21:04,916 --> 00:21:09,796 Speaker 1: feeling when they listened to those shows. Ought back and 312 00:21:10,636 --> 00:21:13,276 Speaker 1: all those concerts I had been at and people were 313 00:21:14,316 --> 00:21:17,636 Speaker 1: crying and they were singing and they were smiling, and 314 00:21:17,676 --> 00:21:20,916 Speaker 1: I would see like tears, you know, from people, and 315 00:21:20,956 --> 00:21:24,516 Speaker 1: I'd just be I'd just be standing there looking out 316 00:21:25,516 --> 00:21:31,196 Speaker 1: thinking it's working. The system, it's doing what we wanted 317 00:21:31,196 --> 00:21:34,596 Speaker 1: it to do. The musicians are up there playing and 318 00:21:34,996 --> 00:21:38,756 Speaker 1: our sound equipment is working. But I never felt the 319 00:21:38,836 --> 00:21:43,516 Speaker 1: feelings of the audience. And I went home and it 320 00:21:43,596 --> 00:21:47,196 Speaker 1: was really late by then, and I sent an email 321 00:21:47,276 --> 00:21:49,116 Speaker 1: to the doctor and I said, this is like some 322 00:21:49,276 --> 00:21:54,956 Speaker 1: really powerful stuff. This has happened. And I sat awake 323 00:21:55,076 --> 00:21:58,596 Speaker 1: all night and I just listened to old music, just 324 00:21:58,716 --> 00:22:03,716 Speaker 1: sitting listening to it, and it was like dawn, and 325 00:22:03,836 --> 00:22:09,156 Speaker 1: it finally the brilliance kind of faded away, and I 326 00:22:09,156 --> 00:22:13,956 Speaker 1: I went to sleep and it was was just an 327 00:22:13,996 --> 00:22:27,436 Speaker 1: amazing night. Will be back in a moment with a 328 00:22:27,476 --> 00:22:35,316 Speaker 1: slight change of plans. So John Elder Robeson volunteered to 329 00:22:35,356 --> 00:22:38,836 Speaker 1: participate in a pioneering study run by a teaching hospital 330 00:22:38,876 --> 00:22:43,596 Speaker 1: out of Harvard Medical School. The study used transcranial magnetic stimulation, 331 00:22:43,956 --> 00:22:48,916 Speaker 1: or TMS, which uses electromagnetic pulses to stimulate nerve cells. 332 00:22:49,676 --> 00:22:53,836 Speaker 1: The impact of TMS on things like migraines, obsessive compulsive disorder, 333 00:22:54,116 --> 00:22:58,676 Speaker 1: and major depressive disorder are relatively well understood, but less 334 00:22:58,676 --> 00:23:02,396 Speaker 1: so the impact of TMS on people on the autism spectrum, 335 00:23:02,436 --> 00:23:04,956 Speaker 1: and the two thousand and eight study that John participated 336 00:23:04,956 --> 00:23:09,076 Speaker 1: in was entirely exploratory. It was a research study that 337 00:23:09,196 --> 00:23:12,796 Speaker 1: recruited those with Asperger's, a diagnostic category still used at 338 00:23:12,836 --> 00:23:16,236 Speaker 1: that time, and it's worth noting that among the participants 339 00:23:16,276 --> 00:23:20,316 Speaker 1: in the study, John's response was singular and highly unusual 340 00:23:20,396 --> 00:23:23,476 Speaker 1: in its expression, and it had a complex impact on 341 00:23:23,556 --> 00:23:26,876 Speaker 1: John's life. It changed his understanding of himself in a 342 00:23:26,916 --> 00:23:31,156 Speaker 1: profound way and affected the relationships in his life, including 343 00:23:31,156 --> 00:23:33,196 Speaker 1: with his wife and the folks in the car shop. 344 00:23:33,836 --> 00:23:36,076 Speaker 1: I went to work and one of the guys was 345 00:23:36,116 --> 00:23:40,596 Speaker 1: it was in the hall and looked at him and 346 00:23:40,716 --> 00:23:47,996 Speaker 1: I thought, he has the most beautiful brown eyes. And 347 00:23:48,236 --> 00:23:51,956 Speaker 1: then it'd like hit me. I thought, what's going on 348 00:23:52,076 --> 00:23:57,076 Speaker 1: with me? I had never ever in my life had 349 00:23:57,116 --> 00:24:02,756 Speaker 1: a thought he has beautiful brown eyes. But of course 350 00:24:02,796 --> 00:24:06,276 Speaker 1: I had heard that. People had said all old blue eyes, 351 00:24:06,316 --> 00:24:08,436 Speaker 1: and you're such pretty blue eyes and pretty, you know. 352 00:24:08,716 --> 00:24:12,676 Speaker 1: I heard it, but I had never ever had that thought. 353 00:24:13,836 --> 00:24:16,796 Speaker 1: And then I went into the waiting room and there 354 00:24:16,796 --> 00:24:20,036 Speaker 1: were people out there, and I looked at people and 355 00:24:20,116 --> 00:24:25,836 Speaker 1: I thought, she's really anxious, really scared. And I never 356 00:24:25,956 --> 00:24:28,476 Speaker 1: had a feeling like that before. I mean, I would 357 00:24:28,476 --> 00:24:31,676 Speaker 1: go in the waiting room and my logical brain would 358 00:24:31,716 --> 00:24:34,356 Speaker 1: tell me they're waiting to know what's wrong with their car. 359 00:24:34,876 --> 00:24:37,876 Speaker 1: But never ever did I look at someone and think 360 00:24:38,356 --> 00:24:43,756 Speaker 1: she's really scared. And I actually I said to the 361 00:24:43,796 --> 00:24:46,276 Speaker 1: person in the waiting room, I said, don't worry, it'll 362 00:24:46,316 --> 00:24:50,876 Speaker 1: be okay. She kind of smiled at me, and I thought, 363 00:24:51,996 --> 00:24:54,556 Speaker 1: this is like magic. This has never happened to me. 364 00:24:56,116 --> 00:25:01,436 Speaker 1: And lest you think that my life was all like 365 00:25:01,596 --> 00:25:04,356 Speaker 1: beauty and sweetness and light from that moment on, it 366 00:25:04,436 --> 00:25:11,036 Speaker 1: wasn't that way. Because I went and I went, you know, 367 00:25:11,076 --> 00:25:15,076 Speaker 1: as a big shopping center where I live, and I'm 368 00:25:15,116 --> 00:25:17,396 Speaker 1: walking through the mall and I'm just like looking around 369 00:25:17,396 --> 00:25:21,356 Speaker 1: at the people, and it was not beauty and sweetness 370 00:25:21,356 --> 00:25:24,956 Speaker 1: and light. It was like fear and anxiety and worry 371 00:25:24,996 --> 00:25:27,996 Speaker 1: and jealousy and all these things that they're all coming 372 00:25:28,076 --> 00:25:30,956 Speaker 1: at me from a million different directions, and it's just 373 00:25:30,996 --> 00:25:36,876 Speaker 1: like this wave of emotion. And I thought, holy shit, 374 00:25:37,036 --> 00:25:41,276 Speaker 1: I thought, what kind of fool was I now? And 375 00:25:41,316 --> 00:25:45,356 Speaker 1: you know, as I went through life, that faded away, luckily, 376 00:25:46,956 --> 00:25:51,236 Speaker 1: but that meaning my ability to see those emotions and 377 00:25:51,316 --> 00:25:57,756 Speaker 1: people dissipated over the next few weeks, but while it lasted, 378 00:25:58,676 --> 00:26:04,476 Speaker 1: it was overwhelming. It was like devastating to me. I mean, 379 00:26:04,516 --> 00:26:09,396 Speaker 1: I so appreciate the complexity you describe and from what 380 00:26:09,436 --> 00:26:15,276 Speaker 1: I understand, while the very acute results of the TMS 381 00:26:15,396 --> 00:26:19,276 Speaker 1: have dissipated over time, there is this element of you 382 00:26:19,396 --> 00:26:24,756 Speaker 1: can't unsee what you've seen, right, and you are you're 383 00:26:24,796 --> 00:26:28,756 Speaker 1: altered permanently from this experience in terms of your perspective 384 00:26:28,796 --> 00:26:33,676 Speaker 1: of the world. And I also felt like my dream 385 00:26:34,356 --> 00:26:37,076 Speaker 1: was kind of shattered, this idea that if I could 386 00:26:37,156 --> 00:26:40,236 Speaker 1: see these things in other people, my life would be beautiful. 387 00:26:41,116 --> 00:26:47,356 Speaker 1: And so now we are thirteen years since that first 388 00:26:47,556 --> 00:26:55,876 Speaker 1: TMS experience, and I guess, I guess I never imagined 389 00:26:55,956 --> 00:26:59,196 Speaker 1: that just a brief experience like that could change your 390 00:26:59,196 --> 00:27:03,516 Speaker 1: life forever. The way I guess I could explain it, 391 00:27:04,516 --> 00:27:08,716 Speaker 1: and maybe it's an explanation, is if you're a color 392 00:27:08,796 --> 00:27:13,396 Speaker 1: blind person and you grow up and you imagine people 393 00:27:13,396 --> 00:27:16,596 Speaker 1: are talking about the beautiful blue sky, pretty red shirt, 394 00:27:16,836 --> 00:27:20,156 Speaker 1: nice green grass, and of course to you, it's all 395 00:27:20,196 --> 00:27:22,396 Speaker 1: shades of gray, and you start thinking it's just bullshit, 396 00:27:22,436 --> 00:27:25,236 Speaker 1: and it just makes you angry. It's blue yellow, green talk. 397 00:27:25,276 --> 00:27:27,076 Speaker 1: It's all the same. You know it. You know the 398 00:27:27,156 --> 00:27:30,196 Speaker 1: evidence of your eyes. And you go into some doctor's 399 00:27:30,236 --> 00:27:32,516 Speaker 1: office and they do something to you, and you walk out, 400 00:27:32,596 --> 00:27:35,756 Speaker 1: you see color and you realize, holy shit, these people 401 00:27:35,796 --> 00:27:38,316 Speaker 1: were telling the truth. It's really what it is. And 402 00:27:38,356 --> 00:27:41,316 Speaker 1: then the ability fades away. Well, even if you go 403 00:27:41,396 --> 00:27:43,196 Speaker 1: back to sea in a black and white world, you 404 00:27:43,236 --> 00:27:46,516 Speaker 1: are never going to forget that all those other people 405 00:27:46,596 --> 00:27:49,236 Speaker 1: are seeing yellows and blues and greens, and you're going 406 00:27:49,276 --> 00:27:53,676 Speaker 1: to try your hardest to discern which shade of gray 407 00:27:53,876 --> 00:27:56,956 Speaker 1: is yellow and what's green? And can I determine green 408 00:27:57,076 --> 00:28:00,676 Speaker 1: by context? You know that's a lawn, so that must 409 00:28:00,756 --> 00:28:04,916 Speaker 1: be green. And you're going to always be changed. I 410 00:28:05,316 --> 00:28:08,836 Speaker 1: don't know what to say except that I'm changed all 411 00:28:08,876 --> 00:28:14,516 Speaker 1: these years later. Yeah, and the insight I think has 412 00:28:14,516 --> 00:28:18,796 Speaker 1: been empowering. But it was a really really rough ride. Yea. 413 00:28:18,956 --> 00:28:22,116 Speaker 1: So it was a very mixed bag. It was. It 414 00:28:22,156 --> 00:28:25,876 Speaker 1: was a very mixed thing. That leads me to another 415 00:28:25,956 --> 00:28:28,796 Speaker 1: question I have for you, John, which is, you know, 416 00:28:28,836 --> 00:28:32,356 Speaker 1: you talk about this experience in the mall where you're 417 00:28:32,556 --> 00:28:37,476 Speaker 1: inundated with emotion, and what you're realizing is your experience 418 00:28:37,516 --> 00:28:40,636 Speaker 1: being on the autism spectrum. Wasn't shielding you all the 419 00:28:40,676 --> 00:28:43,196 Speaker 1: good parts. It was shielding me from those bad parts. 420 00:28:43,516 --> 00:28:46,876 Speaker 1: It was shielding you from bad parts too. Being autistic 421 00:28:46,956 --> 00:28:51,236 Speaker 1: definitely shielded me from that. It made me different, but 422 00:28:51,316 --> 00:28:54,636 Speaker 1: it didn't make me worse. Because those people who have 423 00:28:54,676 --> 00:28:59,276 Speaker 1: to live with that, you know, being a logical person, 424 00:28:59,396 --> 00:29:02,596 Speaker 1: they can't be logical people because there's so much emotion 425 00:29:02,676 --> 00:29:05,196 Speaker 1: around them. I don't have that around me. So I 426 00:29:05,236 --> 00:29:08,836 Speaker 1: am logical, and you know, logic works, and a lot 427 00:29:08,836 --> 00:29:11,676 Speaker 1: of you ought to be a programmer. Boy, there's nothing 428 00:29:11,756 --> 00:29:17,036 Speaker 1: better than logic. Yeah. I'm wondering what impact the TMS 429 00:29:17,116 --> 00:29:22,556 Speaker 1: had on your relationship with your wife. Well, ultimately, my 430 00:29:22,636 --> 00:29:29,156 Speaker 1: wife was living with significant depression, and because I was 431 00:29:29,316 --> 00:29:34,436 Speaker 1: largely blind to the emotional cues from others her included, 432 00:29:35,596 --> 00:29:38,636 Speaker 1: she was just what she was, you know, and and 433 00:29:38,756 --> 00:29:40,716 Speaker 1: she could say like I I can't get out of 434 00:29:40,716 --> 00:29:42,636 Speaker 1: bed today, I'm too depressed, and I would say, Okay, 435 00:29:42,636 --> 00:29:45,036 Speaker 1: I'm going to work, and I was just and that worked, 436 00:29:45,196 --> 00:29:48,676 Speaker 1: you know, worked for us. But when I saw those 437 00:29:48,756 --> 00:29:53,276 Speaker 1: feelings after the TMS, I saw her sadness and misery, 438 00:29:53,356 --> 00:29:56,236 Speaker 1: and I thought I must have done this to her. 439 00:29:56,316 --> 00:29:59,156 Speaker 1: We're married, I must be the cause of her misery. 440 00:29:59,516 --> 00:30:05,036 Speaker 1: That's just just horrible, and it really shattered my marriage. 441 00:30:05,516 --> 00:30:08,316 Speaker 1: I thought, you know, I'm like killing her and her 442 00:30:08,356 --> 00:30:11,196 Speaker 1: depressionis killing me, and we're horrible for each other. And 443 00:30:11,276 --> 00:30:14,756 Speaker 1: I got to leave, and you know, and I guess 444 00:30:14,796 --> 00:30:19,116 Speaker 1: I'm I'm very sad for that. Yeah. I mean, it's 445 00:30:19,116 --> 00:30:22,876 Speaker 1: a poignant illustration of the complexities that come along with 446 00:30:23,156 --> 00:30:27,996 Speaker 1: picking up on human emotions. Knowing what you know now, 447 00:30:28,556 --> 00:30:31,636 Speaker 1: if you could go back in time, would you still 448 00:30:31,996 --> 00:30:36,596 Speaker 1: go through with the TMS experiments? If you put me 449 00:30:36,716 --> 00:30:42,556 Speaker 1: in the shoes of the post TMS John Robison, where 450 00:30:43,516 --> 00:30:47,436 Speaker 1: I had experienced what it would be like to see 451 00:30:47,556 --> 00:30:53,236 Speaker 1: and feel emotion, and I saw and felt what it's 452 00:30:53,316 --> 00:30:56,916 Speaker 1: like to read emotions. And yes, that's a powerful thing, 453 00:30:57,436 --> 00:31:01,476 Speaker 1: and yes that could help me engage with people who 454 00:31:01,596 --> 00:31:07,156 Speaker 1: don't know me. But it devastated my logical brain and 455 00:31:07,236 --> 00:31:11,676 Speaker 1: it upended the world as I had known it. I 456 00:31:11,716 --> 00:31:17,836 Speaker 1: am not a broken version of some someone else as normal. 457 00:31:18,436 --> 00:31:22,396 Speaker 1: I am my normal. Autistic people may be different from 458 00:31:22,436 --> 00:31:26,956 Speaker 1: non autistic people, but we are not broken. And that's 459 00:31:26,996 --> 00:31:30,436 Speaker 1: what's been brought home to me. I think through this TMS. 460 00:31:31,636 --> 00:31:35,276 Speaker 1: And now that I know that, do I need to 461 00:31:35,356 --> 00:31:39,676 Speaker 1: learn it again? No, that's a lifelong lesson, and that's 462 00:31:39,676 --> 00:31:43,516 Speaker 1: a gift. The TMS gave me that I truly understand 463 00:31:44,116 --> 00:31:47,396 Speaker 1: that as an autistic person, I am my normal, and 464 00:31:47,476 --> 00:31:50,876 Speaker 1: I'm a good normal, as much a complete, correct person 465 00:31:50,916 --> 00:32:13,756 Speaker 1: as anyone else. Join me next week when I talk 466 00:32:13,796 --> 00:32:17,756 Speaker 1: with psychologist Angela Duckworth about the science of grit and 467 00:32:17,836 --> 00:32:20,916 Speaker 1: how natural talent inability will only take you so far. 468 00:32:21,876 --> 00:32:25,196 Speaker 1: I really don't know anybody who has become world class 469 00:32:25,196 --> 00:32:29,476 Speaker 1: of economics or at being a political leader, or anything else. 470 00:32:29,516 --> 00:32:32,636 Speaker 1: You know, a classroom teacher, a nurse like without years 471 00:32:32,676 --> 00:32:44,836 Speaker 1: and years of effort. A Slight Change of Plans is 472 00:32:44,836 --> 00:32:48,596 Speaker 1: created written an executive produce by Nie Maya Shunker. The 473 00:32:48,716 --> 00:32:53,196 Speaker 1: Slight Change Family includes Tyler Greene, our senior producer, Jen Guera, 474 00:32:53,316 --> 00:32:57,916 Speaker 1: our senior editor, Ben Taliday, our sound engineer, Emily Rostek 475 00:32:57,996 --> 00:33:02,836 Speaker 1: our associate producer, and Neil Lavelle, our executive producer. Louise 476 00:33:02,876 --> 00:33:05,876 Speaker 1: Scara wrote our theme song and Ginger Smith helped arrange 477 00:33:05,876 --> 00:33:09,076 Speaker 1: the vocals. A Slight Change of Plants the production of 478 00:33:09,156 --> 00:33:13,996 Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries so big. Thanks to everyone there. Including Malcolm Gladwell, 479 00:33:14,196 --> 00:33:17,996 Speaker 1: Jacob Weisberg, Lee Tall Mulat and Heather Fame and of 480 00:33:18,036 --> 00:33:22,356 Speaker 1: course a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can 481 00:33:22,396 --> 00:33:25,236 Speaker 1: follow a slight change of plans on Instagram at doctor 482 00:33:25,276 --> 00:33:34,316 Speaker 1: Maya Shunker see you next week. And then the neurologist 483 00:33:34,356 --> 00:33:36,276 Speaker 1: comes in to see me and he says, he says, 484 00:33:36,276 --> 00:33:38,996 Speaker 1: what day is it? And what's your name? And who's 485 00:33:39,036 --> 00:33:42,356 Speaker 1: the president? He asked me some questions. I don't know 486 00:33:42,436 --> 00:33:45,836 Speaker 1: the answer too. He says something like, well, who's our senator? 487 00:33:46,876 --> 00:33:49,516 Speaker 1: S I don't know who our senator? I didn't know 488 00:33:49,556 --> 00:33:53,476 Speaker 1: it before either. Yeah, I would totally avid you John. 489 00:33:53,556 --> 00:33:55,756 Speaker 1: And he says, Okay, I get it. You haven't forgotten it. 490 00:33:55,796 --> 00:33:56,516 Speaker 1: You never knew it.