1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:06,160 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom never told you From house stuff 2 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:13,920 Speaker 1: works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline, and uh, let's just go ahead 4 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:25,560 Speaker 1: and start off by saying two words Downton Abbey. Um, 5 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 1: lady Mary, doppelganger of mine. Gonna go ahead and own 6 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 1: up to that. Although O'Brien has a has a soft 7 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:38,600 Speaker 1: spot in my heart because of those curls, she's got 8 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:44,319 Speaker 1: the best, the most iconic hairstyle on television right now. Yeah, now, 9 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:49,520 Speaker 1: I love I love the head housekeeper woman lady what's 10 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 1: her name. Uh it's not Mrs Pat Moore, No, that's 11 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 1: a cook. Yeah, but I love her. Okay, So we're 12 00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 1: talking about Downton Abbey because it is kind of a 13 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 1: very romanticized look at the upstairs downstairs, the vision of 14 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:13,319 Speaker 1: labor between wealthier people and domestic service, all those domestic workers. 15 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 1: And when we thought about doing an episode on on 16 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 1: maids and domestic workers, we're like, oh, that's a fantastic idea. 17 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:23,120 Speaker 1: Downton n Abbey, tra la la la. Well, there's so 18 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 1: much more to it than just you know, happy, go 19 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:33,399 Speaker 1: lucky Downton Nabbey. Household. Well in reading all of the 20 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 1: stuff that we read about domestic service of every stripe 21 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 1: you know, in in all these regions throughout time. My 22 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:45,839 Speaker 1: my main takeaway was just that really, I mean, domestic 23 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 1: service exists and has existed to kind of give this 24 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 1: appearance of leisure for the upper classes in particular, um, 25 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 1: especially you know, in in the era that we're talking 26 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 1: about with Downton Abbey. Um, this whole like, oh, we 27 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 1: don't have to lift a finger, we're just lying about Well, 28 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 1: it was interesting too. Um. I was listening to Fresh 29 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 1: Air recently on NPR and they were interviewing the Dont 30 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 1: Nabby creator, Julian Fellows, and he was talking about how 31 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 1: they were going over the differences in address where obviously, 32 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 1: you know, Lady Mary's Lady Mary, whereas O'Brien's just O'Brien. 33 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:26,960 Speaker 1: We don't even know her first name, and that's because 34 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 1: of the class difference. And Julian Fellows was talking about how, 35 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 1: you know, some of the appeal of the show is 36 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 1: tied up in that, in terms of this comfort that 37 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:42,079 Speaker 1: people find in everyone knowing their place and in down 38 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 1: nabby terms, maybe that's a little bit more approachable and 39 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 1: like easier to stomach. But then when you start talking 40 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: about domestic service and people knowing their place, when we 41 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:54,240 Speaker 1: start talking about the United States, oh boy, does it 42 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 1: get so much more complicated because race becomes such a 43 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 1: huge factor in that as well. But let's start over 44 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:05,919 Speaker 1: in the UK, because we're gonna focus largely on the 45 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 1: UK and the US for this, and let's talk about 46 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:18,800 Speaker 1: domestic service in Britain. Yeah, it really pervaded Britain's economic, social, 47 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:22,520 Speaker 1: and cultural life. And one of the major sources of 48 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 1: our information is Lucy. It's a lap of Cambridge. She 49 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 1: read a book called Knowing Their Place Domestic Service in 50 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 1: twentieth century Britain, and she says that during the first 51 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 1: half of the twentieth century, domestic service that sector employed 52 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 1: the largest numbers of women of any labor market sector 53 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 1: in Britain. Yeah, and perhaps because of the that huge 54 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 1: the the impact of that industry, she writes that domestic 55 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 1: service has served as a foundational narrative among the stories 56 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 1: British people tell about the last century and it's changes. 57 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:01,840 Speaker 1: And it's true because you see those numbers going down, 58 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 1: for instance, um as the schooling ages rise. Essentially it's 59 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 1: more opportunities in school and work become open to women, 60 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:16,719 Speaker 1: be their numbers in domestic service also shrink. Yeah, and 61 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:22,479 Speaker 1: in the Victorian era, in particular, having butler's, maid's, housekeepers, chauffeurs, 62 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 1: this was all a sign of respectability. So it really 63 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:29,119 Speaker 1: wasn't just your aristocrats and your royals who had these 64 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:32,720 Speaker 1: teams of of servants. It was it was really anyone 65 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 1: with a little money who could hire a team to 66 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 1: do all this work around the house for them. Now, 67 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 1: the lat does point out that the lower middle classes 68 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:42,920 Speaker 1: tended to not be able to afford such a big team, 69 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 1: so they might only have one maid who was expected 70 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:49,720 Speaker 1: to do everything right, and at that time, being that 71 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:53,559 Speaker 1: made being the do it all made for a lower 72 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 1: middle class home was considered the worst possible job you 73 00:04:57,040 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 1: could get, whereas working at Downton n Abby would be 74 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:01,599 Speaker 1: a good gig because you're working for wealthy people, you 75 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:04,719 Speaker 1: have a team of people who all have duties delegated 76 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 1: to them, whereas if you're employed by and not quite 77 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 1: as wealthy family, you're going to be doing so much 78 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 1: more in your hours would be horrendous. Kind of like 79 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:16,799 Speaker 1: being a domestic service worker today. Yeah, Well, and rank 80 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:19,599 Speaker 1: rank played a big part among the domestic servants. Also 81 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 1: there were senior servants like Carson, the butler at Downton, 82 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 1: who have a lot of power and take everything very seriously. 83 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:28,720 Speaker 1: They sort of have the run of the house and 84 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 1: make sure everything is moving smoothly. And I thought it 85 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 1: was interesting. I didn't know this, but prior to the 86 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 1: Victorian era there wasn't necessarily a really standard domestic service uniform. 87 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:44,800 Speaker 1: It was the Victorians, those wily old Victorians, who came 88 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:47,840 Speaker 1: up with the standard black dress and white apron. And 89 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:50,839 Speaker 1: this whole thing was, as you can imagine, to disguise 90 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:54,240 Speaker 1: personal identities. Like let's let them fade into the background 91 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 1: and just do their their domestic work around the house. 92 00:05:57,480 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 1: We don't notice them. Their uniforms just set them apart. 93 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 1: But there's always this tension, it seems like, between the 94 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:09,160 Speaker 1: domestic service workers and the people who are employing them. 95 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 1: Because take for instance, in eighteen nine, when domestic service 96 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:17,240 Speaker 1: is still huge, you have the publication of and this 97 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: is coming from the economists where they're talking about it, 98 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:22,840 Speaker 1: the publication of the servant problem, an attempt at its 99 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 1: solution that talks about cases of quote unquote disease and 100 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:31,040 Speaker 1: deformity caused by the inefficiency and carelessness of nurses and nursemaids, 101 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:35,160 Speaker 1: bold faced girls, and employment agencies with the cheeked question 102 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:40,160 Speaker 1: perspective employers about hours and perks, essentially people not minding 103 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:46,279 Speaker 1: their place. But then after World War One, the servant 104 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:49,599 Speaker 1: problem becomes not so much. You know, all these women 105 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:54,000 Speaker 1: saying hey, I want more uh specified job duties, but 106 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:56,279 Speaker 1: saying hey, I'm going to find a job somewhere else, 107 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 1: not cleaning up your mess. Yeah. World War One all 108 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 1: so really changed the landscape. It offered women increased opportunities 109 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:06,839 Speaker 1: in the paid labor markets, so retailing clerical work ended 110 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: up leading to a dramatic fall in the number of 111 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 1: residential servants. And in the period nineteen fourteen to nineteen 112 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 1: eighteen there was an estimated two million women replacing men 113 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 1: in employment. And this is coming from Joanna Burke, Professor 114 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 1: Joanna Burke for BBC History writing about this and the 115 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 1: proportion of women in total employment during this time jumps 116 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 1: from in July nineteen fourteen to thirty seven in November 117 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 1: nineteen eighteen. And then once we have World War Two 118 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 1: and the rise of the quote unquote servantless home among 119 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:45,119 Speaker 1: the middle class, in particular. You see the major drop 120 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 1: as well in domestic service because you have things like 121 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 1: labor saving devices and more uncluttered furniture stylings to essentially 122 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:56,720 Speaker 1: make the upkeep of your home easier. This is also 123 00:07:56,840 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 1: when we're seeing the rise of things like home cann 124 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 1: mixed household engineering, turning home up keep into a science. 125 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 1: But it's still highly gendered, especially in the UK with 126 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:14,960 Speaker 1: products like Susan mops, Sheila clothes errors and marigold rubber 127 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:18,920 Speaker 1: gloves and it it had been i mean very gendered 128 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 1: leading up to this anyway. Um, according to the LAP again, 129 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 1: between and nineteen thirty one, the number of men employed 130 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:32,960 Speaker 1: as indoor domestic servants did rise, but more than worked 131 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 1: in institutional services like hotels and schools as opposed to 132 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:41,080 Speaker 1: being the nursemaid or the maid in the house. Well yeah, 133 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 1: and we'll talk about this later too, but that comes 134 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 1: up again with you know, janitors or men maids are women? 135 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 1: Why is that a lot of times it has to 136 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 1: do with the indoor versus the outdoor. The domestic sphere 137 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 1: is where women's work happens, and in these large homes 138 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:00,200 Speaker 1: it is the women of the house. The mistress is 139 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:04,840 Speaker 1: who are overseeing all of these employees, not the uh, 140 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:07,960 Speaker 1: you know, the Lord Grantham's. But World War two definitely 141 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 1: ushered in some changes, and the idea of quote unquote 142 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:15,760 Speaker 1: doing for oneself became more acceptable among upper and middle 143 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:19,319 Speaker 1: class families, and the media sort of lashed onto this also, 144 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:22,720 Speaker 1: but it quote it was bolstered by the rising status 145 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 1: of a class neutral housewife identity. And this, this identity 146 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 1: that's rising is accompanied by, like Christen was saying, a 147 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 1: rebranding of domestic work as scientific. I thought it was 148 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 1: fascinating that even in the nineteen sixties you have ready 149 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 1: made food being marketed to quote fill the gap left 150 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:44,679 Speaker 1: by the vanished race of servants, and the nineteen seventies, 151 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 1: the Times of London was still referring to certain recipes 152 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 1: as quote unquote servantless dishes. And yeah, well a lot 153 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:54,360 Speaker 1: of that whole attitude about servants was, like we said, 154 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 1: holding on. One thing that was changing was the ethnic factor. 155 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 1: And Uh elaborates that in the late twentieth century, ethnic 156 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:06,959 Speaker 1: differences became more of a significant feature among domestic service 157 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 1: workers than did gender. As more Eastern European immigrants arrived 158 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:14,440 Speaker 1: in Britain and so by nineteen fifty one, and I 159 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 1: know this is going back, but by nineteen fifty one, 160 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:20,440 Speaker 1: the men in particular employed in indoor domestic service were 161 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 1: mostly foreign. Yeah. And the this whole immigrant factor plays 162 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 1: a huge role two in the patterns of domestic service 163 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:32,199 Speaker 1: in the United States, because if you're looking at the 164 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 1: late nineteenth century in UH the in the North, especially 165 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 1: among upper middle classes in the US, a lot of 166 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 1: times it's Irish and German immigrants who are working in 167 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:48,199 Speaker 1: domestic service. But as soon as larger factories start to open, 168 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 1: they scam and go for the factory jobs, and those 169 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 1: domestic service jobs are largely taken over by black women. 170 00:10:56,520 --> 00:11:00,440 Speaker 1: In the nineteen forties, black women accounted for sixty of 171 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 1: all domestic service jobs. Yeah, and there was a really 172 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:07,319 Speaker 1: interesting article at in j dot com talking about this 173 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 1: particular domestic service work in New Jersey, the state of 174 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 1: New Jersey, and you know Christo mansioned factories and how 175 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 1: a lot of the like Irish immigrants skitaddled and went 176 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 1: to the factories. But this article says factory floors and 177 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 1: store counters were mostly closed to African American women and 178 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 1: so they faced the double barreled discrimination against their race 179 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 1: and gender that funneled them into that domestic work. And 180 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:33,200 Speaker 1: so they point out that in nineteen forty, and this 181 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:36,600 Speaker 1: is just a New Jersey, seventy two point three percent 182 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 1: of the thirty two thousand black women were domestic service workers, 183 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:44,720 Speaker 1: and by nineteen fifty in the state of black women 184 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:48,240 Speaker 1: still worked in private service. Now. I feel like in 185 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 1: the US, though, perhaps because of books that were entered 186 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 1: into movies like The Help, um, a lot of times 187 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:58,840 Speaker 1: when we think about black women in domestic service, we're 188 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:03,839 Speaker 1: thinking about the South in particular, right, And historians of 189 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 1: Vanessa May and Rebecca Sharpless, Uh, we're responding to The 190 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 1: Help and the popularity of The Help, because that book 191 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 1: got a lot of criticism for for how it was written, 192 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:17,199 Speaker 1: how it presented, you know, racial issues and whatever. And 193 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 1: you know, we we won't even really Yeah, I mean, 194 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:22,400 Speaker 1: I said, well, I mean essentially having you know, the 195 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 1: white character Skeeter uh sort of rescue these helpless black women. Yeah. 196 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:31,319 Speaker 1: But Vanessa ma and Rebecca Sharpless on the u n 197 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:34,199 Speaker 1: C Press blog point out that there there are some 198 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:37,559 Speaker 1: things that were left out, some issues that came along 199 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:40,320 Speaker 1: with being an African American maid in white homes in 200 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 1: the South during this time. One of those things being 201 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 1: violence that black women experienced at the hands of white 202 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 1: men and whose homes they worked, because in the book 203 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 1: and the Help, most of the violence is seen at home, 204 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 1: so when when the women go home, it's at the 205 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 1: hands of their husband. And also the issue of organization, 206 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 1: formal organization and activism, and there are several examples that 207 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 1: they cite, like Jackson, Mississippi, in eighteen sixty six, black 208 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 1: maids went on strike for higher wages. In New York 209 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 1: in nineteen thirty four, domestic worker Dora Jones led the 210 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 1: formation of the Domestic Workers Organization, and in Atlanta in 211 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty eight Dorothy Bolden formed the National Domestic Workers 212 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:22,560 Speaker 1: Union of America. But the same time, there are these 213 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 1: very problematic relationships going on, particularly between female domestic workers 214 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 1: and the women of the house who are essentially their bosses. 215 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:36,079 Speaker 1: And we read about this in the book The Maid Narratives, 216 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 1: Black Domestics and White Families and the Jim Crow South 217 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 1: by Katherine Van Warmer and Charlotte A. Sutteth, And they 218 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 1: cite sociologists Judith Rollins, who characterizes the relationship between black 219 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 1: Southern maids and mistresses as maternalism and a unique form 220 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 1: of exploitation because these women are often infantalized. Um, they 221 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,840 Speaker 1: are talk down to. They if they are educated and 222 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:06,040 Speaker 1: they are intelligent, those are not qualities that they tend 223 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:08,960 Speaker 1: to let shine because a lot of times the white 224 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:12,680 Speaker 1: mistresses don't want to don't want to hear any of that. 225 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 1: They just want, you know, essentially like docile workers, to 226 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 1: do what they're told. And there's also to this um 227 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:23,480 Speaker 1: plays into something called the happy slave fantasy, where you 228 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 1: know everybody's just getting along. You think about gone with 229 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 1: the wind, and the whole idea of the happy mammy 230 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 1: just taking care of things and going about her business. Right, Well, 231 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 1: that yeah, that idea of the faithful slave narrative and 232 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 1: as they say, clinging to mammy, just like this generation 233 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 1: of people who were raised by blackmaids not wanting to 234 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 1: let go of that dynamic. But I mean that dynamic, 235 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 1: as cherished as it might have been by a generation 236 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 1: who was raised by these maids, it really was sort 237 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 1: of based on a relationship of forced dependency, as Van 238 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 1: Warmer and Setteth point out, and not to mention the 239 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 1: whole unequal social etiquette. And I mean this is not 240 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 1: just blackmaids in the American South. This is also going 241 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:10,280 Speaker 1: back to down Navvy era and domestic service in Britain. 242 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 1: Just you know, like Kristen said, Lady Mary was Lady Mary, 243 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 1: but O'Brien was just O'Brien. So there is that unequal like, well, 244 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 1: I'm gonna kind of treat you like family, and you're 245 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 1: going to take care of my most intimate needs, but 246 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:25,320 Speaker 1: you're still way lower down on the on the totem 247 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 1: pole than I am. Yeah, and the Civil rights movement 248 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 1: in the United States did a lot to address issues 249 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 1: of inherent racism and bigotry that was tied into that, uh, 250 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 1: you know, the whole knowing your place kind of thing. 251 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 1: But the domestic service sector is still problematic today because 252 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 1: of the nature of the work. You are going to 253 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 1: someone else's house, and a lot of times the boundaries 254 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 1: between you know, your job and everything else are are 255 00:15:55,800 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 1: very fuzzy, and the intimacy of being in someone else's home, 256 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 1: in their domain, possibly interacting with the family, possibly taking 257 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 1: care of and raising children, things can get complicated and 258 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 1: abusive very quickly. Yeah. Well, but also I mean the 259 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 1: whole system if unless you're at a UM, well even 260 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:18,640 Speaker 1: if you are at a corporate made service type thing. 261 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:21,680 Speaker 1: UM A lot of the times women and men who 262 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 1: were in this type of work are sort of lost 263 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 1: because they're not accounted for or they're being paid under 264 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:33,120 Speaker 1: the table, and so they're not necessarily going to benefit 265 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 1: from any sort of labor laws or time off or 266 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 1: you know, any sort of bonus that being in the 267 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 1: regular market would afford you. Well, and as you as 268 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:47,080 Speaker 1: you talked about Caroline um how in the the UK 269 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 1: after World War Two, when a lot of those domestic 270 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 1: service jobs that were held by h by women British 271 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 1: women who then went off to find other jobs that 272 00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:59,640 Speaker 1: were then open to them, and immigrants took the place. 273 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 1: We see a similar thing going on the United States. 274 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 1: UM In for instance, only seven percent of those domestic 275 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 1: service jobs were still being held by black women. But 276 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:13,399 Speaker 1: now we have documented and undocumented immigrants who are taking 277 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:17,399 Speaker 1: over a large proportion of domestic work. And especially for 278 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:21,120 Speaker 1: undocumented immigrants, this is opening up a host of problems 279 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:25,480 Speaker 1: because uh, you know, there's fear of deportation if they 280 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 1: speak out if things are getting abusive, essentially being taken 281 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 1: advantage of Yeah, and this was just on NPR. They 282 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:36,960 Speaker 1: were just talking about this. This was a report compiled 283 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 1: by the u N International Labor Organization that this is 284 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 1: the first report of its kind that they've done that 285 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 1: found that nearly there are nearly fifty three million domestic 286 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:49,480 Speaker 1: workers in the world, and the overwhelming majority are women, 287 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:55,119 Speaker 1: and the overwhelming majority are not protected by labor laws. 288 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:58,160 Speaker 1: And the estimate of that number, estimate of fifty three million, 289 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 1: they point out, is probably low because it really depends 290 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:05,960 Speaker 1: on the country's reporting it, and the report actually excludes 291 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:09,200 Speaker 1: those below the age of fifteen, so the number could 292 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 1: be a lot higher as far as women and men 293 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 1: who are working in private service now for the maids 294 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:19,159 Speaker 1: and housekeeping cleaners as they are classified um in the 295 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:23,159 Speaker 1: United States. To get some more concrete data on what 296 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:26,399 Speaker 1: that occupational outlook is, we can go to the Bureau 297 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 1: of Labor Statistics and find some not so heartening news. 298 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:32,920 Speaker 1: For instance, in two thousand, tend the media and pay 299 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:36,920 Speaker 1: for a maide in the US was only nineteen thousand, 300 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:41,640 Speaker 1: three hundred dollars per year, which translates to per hour. 301 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:45,879 Speaker 1: And the places where people in this occupation are often 302 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 1: employed is like traveler accommodations such as hotels, casinos, and 303 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:56,600 Speaker 1: like hospitals, building services which includes janitors, landscapers, upholstery services, 304 00:18:56,680 --> 00:19:00,080 Speaker 1: things like that, but also nursing care facilities and in 305 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:03,400 Speaker 1: homes for the elderly. And it turns out that the 306 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:07,159 Speaker 1: top paying states for this job are Hawaii, d C. 307 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 1: Okay not a state but an area, UH, New York, Nevada, 308 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 1: and Massachusetts. Yeah, and the National Domestic Workers Alliance just 309 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:19,440 Speaker 1: published a national survey in two thousand twelve, also the 310 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 1: first of its kind. It seems like a lot more 311 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:25,400 Speaker 1: attention is finally starting to be paid to domestic service workers. 312 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 1: And I have a sampler of more depressing statistics um because, 313 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 1: for instance, sixty seven percent of living workers living workers 314 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 1: also are at most risk of exploitation. UH. Sixty seven 315 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:41,639 Speaker 1: percent of them are paid below minimum wage, with a 316 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 1: median hourly wage of six fifteen. Sixty don't have health insurance. 317 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 1: Only four percent, by contrast, have employer provided insurance. Thirty 318 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:56,080 Speaker 1: eight percent of workers suffered from work related risk shoulder, elbow, 319 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:58,439 Speaker 1: or hit pain. A third of them have less than 320 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 1: twelve years of schooling. UH. And and and I could go 321 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:04,400 Speaker 1: on and on and on. It is not uh, it's 322 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 1: not a good situation. No, but well, but it definitely 323 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 1: is not going to slow down anytime soon. I mean, 324 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:14,160 Speaker 1: just because they don't have the protections they need doesn't 325 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:17,720 Speaker 1: mean people are going to start protesting and leaving. UM. 326 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:22,879 Speaker 1: They predict that they need for these domestic workers and maids, housekeepers, 327 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:26,119 Speaker 1: et cetera will just continue to grow because more women 328 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 1: are joining the labor force, they're saying, and our population 329 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 1: is aging. Yeah, and the situation even gets worse if 330 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 1: you are an ethnic minority or UM an undocumented immigrant UM. 331 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:42,680 Speaker 1: This is also coming from the National Domestic Workers Alliance UM. 332 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,880 Speaker 1: Thirty six percent of the people they surveyed were undocumented, 333 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:50,239 Speaker 1: and if you are undocumented, you are typically paid less. UM, 334 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 1: you're less likely to complain about poor working conditions for 335 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:56,439 Speaker 1: fear of deportation. As I mentioned earlier, and listen to this, 336 00:20:56,760 --> 00:21:00,640 Speaker 1: the median hourly wage was two dollars and since more 337 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:05,120 Speaker 1: for white workers compared to Latina's and that's documented UM 338 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 1: and a dollar fourteen higher than black workers. So there's 339 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:14,360 Speaker 1: still this kind of ethnic discrimination that's going on. Yeah, 340 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:16,680 Speaker 1: I mean, there's also the language barrier issue that comes 341 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:18,760 Speaker 1: with people coming to this country and going into this 342 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:22,400 Speaker 1: type of work. Many workers who don't speak good English 343 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:25,640 Speaker 1: might be unaware that they even have any rights and 344 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:29,640 Speaker 1: are therefore more vulnerable to exploitation and abuse. Yeah, and so, 345 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:33,240 Speaker 1: I mean, while it is certainly fun and escapist to 346 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:38,680 Speaker 1: watch Downton Abbey and you know, witness these little relationships 347 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:41,640 Speaker 1: between the upstairs and downstairs and all of the intrigue 348 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 1: in scandal that goes along with that, um, the fact 349 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:47,160 Speaker 1: of the matter is there is a very real problem 350 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 1: with domestic service that's going on, not just in the 351 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:54,400 Speaker 1: US but obviously around around the world. I mean, it's 352 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:56,679 Speaker 1: not all doom and gloom. I mean it is. It 353 00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 1: is pretty bad when you think about undocumented workers being 354 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:02,640 Speaker 1: taken a manage of or abused. But the New York 355 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:06,879 Speaker 1: Domestic Workers Bill of Rights was the first US legislation 356 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 1: of its kind, and it sets enforceable standards for overtime pay, 357 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 1: rest days, pay days off, and other worker protections. Because 358 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 1: I mean, when you think about this work, it's not 359 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 1: just that you're working all day long and having to 360 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:21,399 Speaker 1: drive all over town to all these different houses, but 361 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:25,359 Speaker 1: it's just like physically challenging work. I mean, you were 362 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:29,920 Speaker 1: really hurting your body. Um. Also another another good piece 363 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:33,880 Speaker 1: of news is that in twleven, the International Labor Organization 364 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 1: that we mentioned earlier adopted Convention number one eight nine, 365 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 1: establishing for the first time global Labor Standards for the 366 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 1: Treatment of domestic workers. Yeah, and and those kind of 367 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:47,199 Speaker 1: standards are so imperative. Um. Just to wrap things up, 368 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:50,160 Speaker 1: because this is coming from Bridget Anderson, who wrote Doing 369 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:53,880 Speaker 1: the Dirty Work, The Global Politics of Domestic Labor. Um. 370 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:56,199 Speaker 1: She says, the problem for the worker is that her 371 00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:59,880 Speaker 1: work is not definable in terms of task performed, nor 372 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:03,119 Speaker 1: is there any objective standard of cleanliness or tidiness that 373 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:06,399 Speaker 1: she must meet. The standard is imposed by the household manager, 374 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 1: and that standard can always be raised. So things to 375 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:15,879 Speaker 1: think about while you're watching Downton Nabbey. Did your family 376 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:18,919 Speaker 1: ever have a maid or housekeeper? We briefly had a 377 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 1: maid who came once a week on Monday's. Her name 378 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 1: was Mary um and yeah, I mean I remember her 379 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:29,199 Speaker 1: coming for a few years. Yeah, my my parents, we 380 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 1: I grew up with pat coming to our house. I 381 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 1: think it was every week. And then once I got 382 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:36,040 Speaker 1: older and wasn't making so much of a mess, I 383 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 1: guess uh, she started coming less frequently and now they 384 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:43,560 Speaker 1: have someone who comes I think every once every two weeks. Yeah, 385 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 1: So I mean it's I I could not do that 386 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 1: all day, every day. I mean, that is physically punishing work. 387 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 1: I mean, and obviously like these these jobs are employing 388 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 1: people who need jobs. It's not an argument to get 389 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:02,520 Speaker 1: rid of the domestic service, um, but there is a 390 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 1: lot of reform that is obviously needed in a big way. So, UM, 391 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:11,679 Speaker 1: folks who are in domestic service, if you're listening, write us, 392 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,160 Speaker 1: let us know your thoughts on this stuff. Um. Anybody 393 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 1: else welcome to rise as well. Mom Stuff at Discovery 394 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 1: dot com is where you can send your letters. But Kristen, 395 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 1: before we get to listener letters, well, I've got a 396 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 1: letter here from Ashley in response to our episode on 397 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:35,240 Speaker 1: mothers in law, and she writes, I'm a lesbian and 398 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:37,679 Speaker 1: I've been with my partner for almost four years, and 399 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:41,160 Speaker 1: both of our mothers are excellent mothers in law. They're 400 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:44,760 Speaker 1: very progressive, liberal and strong willed women who didn't miss 401 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:47,199 Speaker 1: a beat when we respectively on our own before we 402 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 1: were even dating, came out to them as ladies who 403 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:53,399 Speaker 1: love the ladies. My partner's mom is completely inclusive of 404 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:56,160 Speaker 1: my being part of her family, calls me and emails 405 00:24:56,200 --> 00:25:00,440 Speaker 1: me whenever she's concerned about my well being. My partner's 406 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:04,439 Speaker 1: family even came up with the affectionate term daughter outlaw, 407 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 1: highlighting that though a relationship isn't legal, it damn well 408 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:13,399 Speaker 1: should be all. So thank you to Ashley for writing in. 409 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,760 Speaker 1: And I have a letter here from Jenna, who also 410 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:20,360 Speaker 1: wanted to share her stories about her mother in law experience. 411 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 1: She says that my situation is one that I'm sure 412 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 1: a lot of people in the younger generations have two 413 00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 1: mothers in law. My husband's parents divorced when he was 414 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:31,600 Speaker 1: in middle school, and they have both remarried. They couldn't 415 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:35,600 Speaker 1: be more opposite. My husband's stepmother is amazing, down to earth, 416 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 1: loving and supportive. I often call her up when I 417 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 1: need help or advice on things in the domestic arena. 418 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 1: She's always willing to help out, but never give unsolicited advice. 419 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 1: The love she shows me and my husband feels unconditional 420 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:51,200 Speaker 1: and altruistic. My husband's biological mother, on the other hand, 421 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:54,520 Speaker 1: can only be described as a real piece of work. 422 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 1: She's selfish, manipulative, and complicated. When I share stories about 423 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 1: her among my girlfriends, I always win the monster in 424 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 1: law Award. Every gift and kind gesture is full of 425 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 1: hidden meanings and motivations, and every family vacation is a 426 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,920 Speaker 1: dreaded ordeal. It's exhausting. I guess I have the best 427 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 1: and worst of the mother in law situation. I'd like 428 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:14,879 Speaker 1: to offer a little advice for all the mothers in 429 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 1: law out there. Next time you criticize us, please remember 430 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,760 Speaker 1: that we're new at this. Life is tough, and we're 431 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:24,840 Speaker 1: just doing the best we can. And thanks to Jenna 432 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 1: and Ashley and everyone else for writing into mom Stuff 433 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,640 Speaker 1: at Discovery dot com. You can send your letters there, 434 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,439 Speaker 1: or you can hit us up on Facebook, Like us 435 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:35,440 Speaker 1: while you're at it, and follow us on Twitter at 436 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 1: mom Stuff Podcast. You can even follow us on Tumbler 437 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:43,159 Speaker 1: where it's stuff I've never told you dot tumbler dot com. 438 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:44,919 Speaker 1: And if you'd like to get a little bit smarter 439 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:46,880 Speaker 1: this week, you know where to head. It's to our 440 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:53,359 Speaker 1: website how stuff works dot com for more on this 441 00:26:53,560 --> 00:27:01,399 Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics. How stuff works dot com.