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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds, and thirteen former Trump administration officials have

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Speaker 1: signed on to an open letter backing up John Kelly.

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Speaker 1: We have a show that includes two different lawrences MSNBC.

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Speaker 1: MSNBC's Lawrence O'Donnell stops by to try to calm our

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Speaker 1: nerves are fraid pre election nerves. Then we'll talk to

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Speaker 1: Harvard professor Lawrence Lessig about his left field take on

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Speaker 1: why VP Harris might actually need fake electors.

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Speaker 2: So, mally I thought hacking would be a very big

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Speaker 2: part of the selection, but it really feels like the

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Speaker 2: final chapter before we vote, the hacking is really coming

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Speaker 2: into view. What are you seeing here?

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Speaker 1: Who knows? Chinese hackers targeted data from phones used by

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Speaker 1: former Prescident Donald J. Trump and his running mate Senator JD.

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Speaker 1: Vance of Ohio. It is a wide ranging intelligence collection effort.

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Speaker 1: Maybe they released it, Maybe they just use it to

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Speaker 1: manipulate them if they get into power. Who knows, Or

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Speaker 1: perhaps they hack the material and then as you'll remember,

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Speaker 1: newspapers decide not to release it. You'll remember that is

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Speaker 1: opposed a stark contrast to twenty sixteen, when they made

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Speaker 1: a big deal of releasing everything from John Podesta's Risotto

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Speaker 1: recipe to Kuma and Hillary talking about whether or not

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Speaker 1: they should be bad and have the krimboulet. So I

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Speaker 1: don't know they're haacking. They targeted the phones. We'll see

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Speaker 1: what happens. Stay tuned to our sound depressed.

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Speaker 2: So I'll tell you what makes me depressed That billionaires

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Speaker 2: have this much power, and unfortunately they have to fund

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Speaker 2: all of our media outlets and Jeff Bezos. People are

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Speaker 2: not happy with them today, are they?

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Speaker 3: So?

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Speaker 1: The Washington Post is first time since nineteen sixty they're

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Speaker 1: not endorsing a candidate. You know why they're not endorsing

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Speaker 1: a candidate because the billionaire who owns them decided it

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Speaker 1: would be too much trouble. They had a endorsement of

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Speaker 1: Harris because she's the normal candidate who doesn't want to

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Speaker 1: end American democracy. It was all teed up and the

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Speaker 1: newspaper decided not to publish it. The decision not to

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Speaker 1: publish was made by the Post owner. Perhaps you remember him,

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Speaker 1: Amazon founder Jeff Bezos. He owns huge amount of companies

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Speaker 1: and stuff and has billions and billions of dollars in many,

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Speaker 1: many yachts. He has. In twenty nineteen lawsuit, Amazon claimed

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Speaker 1: it lost ten billion dollars in Pentagon cloud computing and

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Speaker 1: a contract to Microsoft because Trump used improper pressure to

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Speaker 1: harm his perceived political enemy. Well, Jeff Bezos isn't going

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Speaker 1: to let that happen again, and he has given up

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Speaker 1: the endorsement. Timothy Snyder, the Yale professor, talks about this

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Speaker 1: and calls it complying in advance. It's one of the

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Speaker 1: things you're not supposed to do when you're fighting authoritarianism.

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Speaker 1: Stay tuned, so Mallya.

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Speaker 2: As we hinted in the opening of the show, thirteen

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Speaker 2: former Trump administration officials have released an open letter on

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Speaker 2: Friday amplify in the warnings of Trump's former chief of staff,

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Speaker 2: John F. Kelly.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know John Kelly, Trump's longest serving chief of staff.

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Speaker 1: It was a marine, He was very well respected. He

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Speaker 1: came out and did these tapes with Mike Schmidt from

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Speaker 1: the New York Times. They're on the New York Times

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Speaker 1: website and they and they have General Kelly describing Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump as an authoritarian and as a fascist. Someone who

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Speaker 1: doesn't like democracy. He also tells his anecdote about how

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Speaker 1: he thought that Hitler had good generals and that maybe

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Speaker 1: you know, he had some musings about Hitler. You never

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Speaker 1: want to have musings about Hitler in case you're wondering.

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Speaker 1: It really was a brave thing. And remember, these military

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Speaker 1: guys are try to be non political. It takes a

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Speaker 1: lot to get them to come out and say something

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Speaker 1: political like this. So this is a very big deal.

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Speaker 1: So today, after being attacked by all of Trump World

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Speaker 1: and all of Trump's people, thirteen former Trump administration officials,

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Speaker 1: which this is really a big deal, released an open

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Speaker 1: letter on Friday amplifying the warnings of John F. Kelly,

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Speaker 1: donald Trump's longest chief of staff. And this is really

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Speaker 1: quite a big deal. These are lifelong Republicans who are

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Speaker 1: taking a stand against this, and the people who have

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Speaker 1: signed it are people like Alyssa Griffin, Stephanie Grisham, Adam Kinsinger,

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Speaker 1: Miles Taylor, Olivia Troy Scaramoucci. This is a very unusual

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Speaker 1: thing to have, and everyone is trying to make the

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Speaker 1: make it clear that what Donald Trump wants to do

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Speaker 1: is not normal and none of this is what happens

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Speaker 1: normally in American democracy.

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Speaker 2: One of Trump's great techniques every election season is he

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Speaker 2: tries to play both sides of many issues and blur

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Speaker 2: the lines so people can make a decision to just

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Speaker 2: vote for him. And he's tried to do this with

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Speaker 2: Israel versus Hamas and Hezbala, but things get complicated because

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Speaker 2: he runs his mouth weird and weird ways. What are

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Speaker 2: you seeing here?

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Speaker 1: So Donald Trump has said that he would be better

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Speaker 1: for Arab Americans than Harris. He says that you should

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Speaker 1: vote against Harris because it's too stupid to go into.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, Trump allies they feel they have this opportunity

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Speaker 1: to lure away young Muslims. You'll see that a lot

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Speaker 1: of the polling shows they're pretty tight there. But he

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Speaker 1: has expressed support for Israel's offensives against Hamas and Hezbela

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Speaker 1: in a recent call with the country's prime minister, a

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Speaker 1: position that could complicate his campaign's outreach to Arab Americans.

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Speaker 1: You guys, if it's Donald Trump, it's transactional. And if

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Speaker 1: he gets back in the White House, he's going to

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Speaker 1: let nat Yahoo do whatever he wants to Palestine. Who

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Speaker 1: thinks otherwise is sadly mistaken.

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Speaker 2: So Maally. We knew as this election came to a

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Speaker 2: close that North Carolina is one of the states that

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Speaker 2: has traditionally always had some of the biggest voting fuckery.

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Speaker 2: They will make students walk miles to their voting locations

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Speaker 2: and change point places on the day of the election.

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Speaker 2: Republicans have long fucked around there, but this is a

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Speaker 2: new height.

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Speaker 3: What are you seeing here?

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Speaker 1: So this is the House Freedom Caucus. The chair of

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Speaker 1: the conservative House Freedom Caucus in North Carolina member of

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Speaker 1: Congress named Andy Harris. I mean, this is so insane,

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Speaker 1: he said. It makes a lot of sense that given

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Speaker 1: the distraught wrought by Hurricane Helene in the western part

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Speaker 1: of the state, that he wants to preemptively award electoral

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Speaker 1: votes to Trump. So that means, if you live in

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Speaker 1: North Carolina, this member of the Republican Freedom Caucus wants

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Speaker 1: to make sure that your votes do not count because

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Speaker 1: of the hurricane. He would like to just give all

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Speaker 1: of your votes to Republican electors and award the state

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Speaker 1: to Donald Trump before anyone's even been voting. This is

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Speaker 1: so incredibly destructive, not what we do in this country,

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Speaker 1: and absolutely so just insane and really shocking. Andy Harris

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Speaker 1: and this was reported in Politico. Such a crime, and

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Speaker 1: this is what Republicans want to do, and they keep

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Speaker 1: telling you. Lawrence O'Donnell is the host of the Lawrence

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Speaker 1: O'Donnell Show on MSNBC, So welcome back, Lawrence very much.

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Speaker 1: You have so eloquently explained to the moment in American

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Speaker 1: life that we're in. But just one more time for

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Speaker 1: the people in the back, could you.

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Speaker 3: Remind me I don't remember a word I say. This

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Speaker 3: moment is one we've been in before, and it's the

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Speaker 3: one the show business is in twenty four hours a day,

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Speaker 3: every day, and it's the William Goldman moment of nobody

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Speaker 3: knows anything. And that is the famous line from his

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Speaker 3: the single best book, possibly only good book about show business,

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Speaker 3: Adventures in the Screen Trade, by Oscar winning screenwriter William Goldman,

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Speaker 3: and he takes you through explaining the business and why

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Speaker 3: it's not a business and why it's all so crazy,

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Speaker 3: and it all comes down to nobody knows anything. No

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Speaker 3: one knows what movie is going to work. No one

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Speaker 3: knows literally like what's going to happen next, what to

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Speaker 3: do next? And that's where we are now. The New

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Speaker 3: York Times has officially given up. They've done their last

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Speaker 3: poll and said, we give up the basic headline of

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Speaker 3: the poll as we give up. We've wasted all of

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Speaker 3: our money in our time on all of this polling.

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Speaker 3: It has led us to nowhere. No poll has told us,

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Speaker 3: you know, what was going to happen next, even in

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Speaker 3: the polls, and so like New York Times is saying

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Speaker 3: to you, Okay, thank you for reading all of our

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Speaker 3: massive coverage about this and how every little thing might

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Speaker 3: change the course of the of the election and all that,

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Speaker 3: and thanks for studying every little detail of our polls.

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Speaker 4: We have no.

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Speaker 3: Idea who's going to win, and we give up. And

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Speaker 3: you know, I could have suggested that they give up

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Speaker 3: a lot earlier on the polling, because it was pretty

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Speaker 3: clear that the polling did not have any gravitational forces

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Speaker 3: in it that made any sense right up to you know,

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Speaker 3: the present, where you can have a candidate on the

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Speaker 3: record praising Hitler and it has no effect. So when

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Speaker 3: you live in that political universe, you shouldn't expect the

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Speaker 3: polls to be helpful. They're not going to be helpful.

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Speaker 3: And so I kind of love that The Times has

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Speaker 3: in effect fully admitted that that nobody knows anything, and

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Speaker 3: all these pollsters don't know anything, and here we are,

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Speaker 3: and so you know, it's the way life used to

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Speaker 3: be before meteorology. You didn't know if it was going

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Speaker 3: to rain in the afternoon or you just everybody lived

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Speaker 3: life in a perfectly reasonable way without knowing what was

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Speaker 3: going to happen next. I've been able to accept for

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Speaker 3: a very very long time that I don't know what's

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Speaker 3: going to happen in the future. That should not be

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Speaker 3: a hard thing for people to come to grips with.

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Speaker 3: And so in this case, the future is you know

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Speaker 3: what eleven days away, and it's upon us, and you know,

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Speaker 3: the last time nobody knew anything, Joe Biden won.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I would love you for two seconds. I

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Speaker 1: know this is a stupid question, but I feel like

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Speaker 1: our listeners need to sort of just have.

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Speaker 3: Let me just say at eleven in the morning, which

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Speaker 3: we can reveal this is this is before noon. Yes,

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Speaker 3: stupid questions are the only kind I want. I'm not

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Speaker 3: awake enough for a serious question.

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Speaker 1: Excellent reading Early voting is like trying to read runs,

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Speaker 1: especially in an election that has a tent big enough

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Speaker 1: to include Harris and Liz Cheney, do you agree.

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Speaker 3: Well, early voting used to you know, when the craziest,

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Speaker 3: stupidest candidate in history was urging people not to early vote,

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Speaker 3: which is the stupidest thing he could possibly have said.

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Speaker 3: When he was doing that, early voting was indicative, you know,

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Speaker 3: in twenty twenty of oh boy, look at the size

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Speaker 3: of the early voting. We know that's not Trump voters,

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Speaker 3: or you know, mostly not Trump voters. And now I

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Speaker 3: think it's trickier, you know, because they've changed the tune.

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Speaker 3: Trump's not out there preaching against early voting, so you

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Speaker 3: definitely are going to have a larger participation of Trump

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Speaker 3: voters in early voting. I do think it's not unreasonable

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Speaker 3: for the Harris side to take encouragement from big early

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Speaker 3: voting numbers.

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Speaker 1: Right, Okay, So that's a really good point. It's a

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Speaker 1: genre of article is the nervous Democrats and the confident Republicans.

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Speaker 1: You know, there have been a ton of articles in

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Speaker 1: Axios and you know, axios like publications about the anxiety

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Speaker 1: the Democrats have.

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Speaker 3: Can I just say parenthetically here, yes, please help me

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Speaker 3: so bioccupation. I am mired in these subjects. I never

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Speaker 3: read Axios. And I don't mean this as any kind

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Speaker 3: of offense against Axios, but all the information you needed

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Speaker 3: to be fluent in this field existed before Axios was born,

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Speaker 3: and before most of the people working at Axios was

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Speaker 3: were born. Okay, so when people send me these things, oh,

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Speaker 3: I read this and I read that, the first thing

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Speaker 3: I say to them is, why are you reading that?

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Speaker 3: Why would you read that? The field is just now

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Speaker 3: overflowing with junk stuff? That is a business. You got

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Speaker 3: to remember, Axios was invented to make people rich. It

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Speaker 3: was not invented to clarify how you should think about things.

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Speaker 3: You know, same thing with Politico. The world was fine

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Speaker 3: without Politico, it was fine. I've learned nothing, absolutely nothing

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Speaker 3: since the invention of Politico. Nothing. It hasn't added a

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Speaker 3: thing to my understanding of anything. I've read very very

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Speaker 3: little from Politico over the years, you know, since it

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Speaker 3: was started. And again that was started as a get

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Speaker 3: rich business. It had all the same integrity as an

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Speaker 3: Elon Musk enterprise. It was just to make money. And

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Speaker 3: so if you're you know, taking a reasonably frequent look

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Speaker 3: at the New York Times, you're not going to learn

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Speaker 3: anything more you're not going to get smarter by reading

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Speaker 3: beyond that stuff. And we all know the limits now

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Speaker 3: in political coverage of the New York Times itself, you know,

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Speaker 3: in the Washington Post itself. But they haven't those people

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Speaker 3: have not come along and figured out how to do

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Speaker 3: this better than the New York Times or the Washington Post.

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Speaker 3: I will certainly want that defense of the New York

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Speaker 3: Times in Washington Post. So I just sorry I heard

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Speaker 3: the word axios, and I just say this for all

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Speaker 3: my friends who and by the way, most of my

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Speaker 3: friends do overly obsess and they pick up all this

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Speaker 3: little junk stuff you know that's out there, and it's

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Speaker 3: an utter waste of time. But by the way, it's

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Speaker 3: a condition of nervous Democrats and confident Republicans. That has

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Speaker 3: been the case for every single presidential election after nineteen

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Speaker 3: ninety six. Bill Clinton had an eighteen point lead over

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Speaker 3: Bob Dole in the summer of nineteen ninety six, and

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Speaker 3: for the first time in history, the Democrats were not nervous. Okay,

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Speaker 3: by the way, one other time the time prior to that,

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Speaker 3: when the Democrats were not nervous was when Michael Dukakis

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Speaker 3: had a seventeen point lead over George H. W. Bush,

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Speaker 3: and the Democrats made the mistake of not being nervous.

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Speaker 3: And so but ever since then, you know, al Gore

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Speaker 3: got more votes in any reasonable fair reading of the situation,

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Speaker 3: al Gore won and beat George W.

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Speaker 1: Bush.

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Speaker 3: The Supreme Court didn't see it that way. And you know,

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Speaker 3: and it was panic for Democrats right right down to

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Speaker 3: the wire, you know. And and it was never panicked

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Speaker 3: for the Bush side, like never. They were never worried,

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Speaker 3: you know. And I think it's I think it's almost temperamental.

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Speaker 3: And I mean it wasn't really a public pose. I mean,

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Speaker 3: those actual Bush guys, those Bush people, you know, those

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Speaker 3: Jim Bakers, they they just weren't. They just don't worry.

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Speaker 3: Those people, you know, And they're constitutionally different. You know.

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Speaker 3: This modern set of Republicans are not like that. They

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Speaker 3: do worry, they do panic, but they are smart enough

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Speaker 3: to simply, like a football team, you know, going into

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Speaker 3: the Super Bowl, never express any doubts, right And the Democrats, like,

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Speaker 3: my god, if the Democrats were in the Super Bowl

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Speaker 3: and doing all those press conferences two weeks before the game,

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Speaker 3: you'd have like half of them going well, I don't know.

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Speaker 3: I don't know, but it just and so they haven't

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Speaker 3: figured that out. You know that it's an athletic thing.

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Speaker 3: Like you, the best thing you can do, no matter

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Speaker 3: how nervous you are in this field is you know,

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Speaker 3: it's just feign confidence if you have to.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And there has been some you know this, there's

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Speaker 1: been some incredible reporting that has come out and I'm

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Speaker 1: even thinking about today this Elon Musk has been talking

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Speaker 1: to Vladimir Putin story which came out from the Rupert

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Speaker 1: Murdoch owned Wall Street Journal. And you do really see

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Speaker 1: why Republicans are so anti reporting.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and by the way, you also see the kind

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Speaker 3: of thing that feeds their confidence. Right, So they've got Musk, like, man,

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Speaker 3: that's a confidence builder. This guy, you know, runs Twitter

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Speaker 3: and twists it to your advantage. He's prepared to give

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Speaker 3: people a million dollars, you know, to you know, sign

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Speaker 3: up to vote. He's you got all that Musk money.

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Speaker 3: I mean, that's that's a pretty big deal. He's highly

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Speaker 3: influential with a kind of person who is not a

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Speaker 3: wise voter. You know, these kind of goofy thirty two

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Speaker 3: year old males which I used to be and you know,

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Speaker 3: so that's you know, you could see where that kind

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Speaker 3: of thing does build a certain kind of confidence without calculating,

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Speaker 3: without noticing. Oh, by the way, it doesn't seem to

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Speaker 3: be making any difference in the polls.

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Speaker 1: Right. You would think that giving away a million dollars

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Speaker 1: a day would be illegal, right.

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Speaker 3: But it turns out it is, which is why they stopped.

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Speaker 1: Yes, that's true. I mean, it's so crazy that this

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Speaker 1: guy has security clearance, he has.

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Speaker 3: A Let's just remind all of our Tesla driving listeners

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Speaker 3: out there, every single one of you has contributed to

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Speaker 3: the Trump campaign, every one of you and you know,

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Speaker 3: friends of mine in California years ago when Musk started

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Speaker 3: trying to violate labor law there and started then getting

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Speaker 3: rid of their teslas. You know, there was a very

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Speaker 3: varying degrees of consciousness of what Musk was up to

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Speaker 3: in California, just in the factories. But that's where it began,

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Speaker 3: the getting rid of the Tesla thing. But buying a

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Speaker 3: Tesla now, is that's a political action. You know, there

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Speaker 3: are there are other electric cars, and there are other

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Speaker 3: cars that can give you whatever kind of thrill you're

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Speaker 3: trying to get out of a machine, and so Tesla owners,

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Speaker 3: you have contributed to the Trump campaign, whether you wanted

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Speaker 3: to or not. And if you're planning on, you know,

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Speaker 3: buying one to borrow, or if you bought one last month,

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Speaker 3: then you very directly contributed to the campaign.

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Speaker 1: And there is a sense in which government regulation has

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Speaker 1: a lack of government regulation has allowed Elon Musk to

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Speaker 1: sort of take over huge swaths of the federal government.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's the problem of the number of vendors.

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 3: If you're trying to stick something up in space, it's like, well,

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Speaker 3: you know, we really don't have another place to go.

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Speaker 3: I'd love to have another place to go. If you're

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Speaker 3: trying to do satellite communication, if you're trying to provide

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Speaker 3: emergency telephone service, you know in Ukraine, starlink is it.

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Speaker 3: There isn't another one, you know, and that's your problem.

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Speaker 3: It's the problem of monopoly in an arena that the

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Speaker 3: government actually needs. So the government's what's what's the government

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Speaker 3: going to do, like crack down on starlink for being

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Speaker 3: a monopoly it needs it. You know, in North Carolina,

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Speaker 3: they needed the you know, EPA needed to distribute that

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Speaker 3: stuff so people could communicate. You know, they're not going

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Speaker 3: to do a monopoly crack down on the only real

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Speaker 3: company that can deliver pretty big payloads into space. So

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Speaker 3: you are just stuck. It won't last forever, you know,

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Speaker 3: it never does. You know, at some point there'll be

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Speaker 3: other ways of doing all the things that the musk

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Speaker 3: companies do. But for now, it's it's a nightmare scenario

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Speaker 3: of outright crazy billion an who's active, who's actually and

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Speaker 3: this is really you couldn't possibly have imagined this. He's

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Speaker 3: actually crazier than Henry Ford, actually crazier than Henry I mean,

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Speaker 3: Henry Ford was a classic American hardcore anti semi of

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Speaker 3: which there were millions in Henry Ford's day. In fact,

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Speaker 3: I would suggest the majority of Americans were kind of

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Speaker 3: minimally anti Semitic in their in their language. They didn't

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Speaker 3: think anything of it. They didn't if you ask them

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Speaker 3: if they were anti Semitic, they'd say no, and they

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Speaker 3: would use Jew as a verb in the next sentence.

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Speaker 3: And you know, so, so there was that, and then

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Speaker 3: there's the virulent kind, which was what Henry Ford was

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Speaker 3: and Lindbergh and those people, and you know, other than that,

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Speaker 3: which is a pretty big. Other than that, you know,

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Speaker 3: Henry Ford was a pretty rational operator. He didn't think, oh,

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Speaker 3: let me buy some company so I can destroy it

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Speaker 3: and turn it turn its value into nothing, you know,

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Speaker 3: like Twitter. Right, he didn't do that. But really it's

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Speaker 3: prior to Musk. Henry Ford was our greatest shame as

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Speaker 3: an American rich guy. And now there's another one.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, Henry Ford is such a really important

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Speaker 1: historical parallel. And one of the things that I spend

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Speaker 1: a lot of time doing when I think about this

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Speaker 1: moment in American life, is trying to sort of connect

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Speaker 1: parallels to it. Elon Musk and Henry Ford. They're so

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Speaker 1: similar except for the irrationality right of Elon Musk, which

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Speaker 1: Henry Ford didn't necessarily have that kind of or at

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Speaker 1: least we didn't see it right. He wasn't public facing

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Speaker 1: the way Elon is. But there are so many precedents.

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Speaker 1: Trump is in himself unprecedented. But a Republican party that

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Speaker 1: cowers and refuses to stand up for what's right.

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Speaker 3: Is not no, not no. But this level of stupidity, yes,

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Speaker 3: is brand new, you know. I Mean the last time

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Speaker 3: we were stupid tariffs was one hundred years ago. I mean,

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Speaker 3: you know, really wildly stupid about tariffs. It was one

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Speaker 3: hundred years ago. But that's one hundred years ago in economics, okay,

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Speaker 3: and one hundred years ago in economics, most economics professors believed,

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Speaker 3: you know that Smoot Holly tariffs were a very very

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Speaker 3: bad idea. But it wasn't that clear to the world

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Speaker 3: or to our politics. You know. Then we did Smoot

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Speaker 3: Holly tariffs. They were a disaster, and both Smoot and

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Speaker 3: Holly were defeated in their reelection campaigns because it was

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Speaker 3: crazy and stupid. That's the kind of growing pain in

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Speaker 3: the learning of economics, which was a relatively new discipline

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Speaker 3: one hundred years ago, that you go, Okay, we're not

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Speaker 3: making that mistake again. What you are really stupid about

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Speaker 3: is making stupid mistakes again, you know, after we've shown

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Speaker 3: them to you. But Trump's you know, ignorance level is

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Speaker 3: brand new too. That is brand new. Like we've never

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Speaker 3: ever ever had anybody that ignorant, you know, anybody that stupid.

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Speaker 3: He does have the processor, Like if you gave him,

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Speaker 3: if he was less ignorant, he still wouldn't be able

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Speaker 3: to manage it in a you know, in a cognitive

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Speaker 3: way and come out with the right answer. But he

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Speaker 3: doesn't have either the information or the ability, you know,

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Speaker 3: to process, and so you're you're stuck with this level

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Speaker 3: of just rank stupidity that we've never seen before. And

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Speaker 3: it does, you know, very much, seem to be getting worse.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I'm a believer in the cognitive deterioration of

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Speaker 3: that guy over time. He's a stupid or crazier person

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Speaker 3: today and will be stupider and crazier tomorrow and next week.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and he's diminished too, I mean he has trouble

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Speaker 1: keeping the same schedule.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what I mean. Nobody's getting smarter in their

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Speaker 3: late seventy like nobody.

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Speaker 1: As I had it into my late forties. Not late yet,

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Speaker 1: but I can attest.

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Speaker 3: Oh no, you know, sorry, your past, your Nobel prize.

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Speaker 3: You know, when you see those Nobel prizes come out, invariably,

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Speaker 3: it's for work that the person did when they were

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Speaker 3: thirty two or twenty seven or so, and they're getting

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Speaker 3: it when they're fifty seven, because it takes that long

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Speaker 3: in chemistry or you know, some of these fields to

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Speaker 3: realize the importance of that work. It takes a couple

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Speaker 3: of decades usually in economics for people to say, oh,

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Speaker 3: that was a really really important discovery, because look, it's

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Speaker 3: proven true over two decades. And so so those Nobel

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Speaker 3: prizes for those gray haired people are almost always for

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Speaker 3: things they did decades earlier. You know, they're almost like

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Speaker 3: professional athletes. It's almost like, yeah, yeah, he was a

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Speaker 3: great pitcher when he was twenty seven, but not.

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Speaker 1: Will you leave us with something a little bit optimistic?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And the indicators if you actually look inside this

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Speaker 3: New York Times poll where they kind of throw up

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Speaker 3: their hands, you know, the indicators inside that are good

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Speaker 3: for the Harris campaign, and that's all. Well, you know,

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Speaker 3: that's all you can look for, is that? So I

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Speaker 3: think everybody should just go about their business on the

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Speaker 3: assumption that Kamala Harris will be present for the next

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Speaker 3: four years, and if next week there's some counter information

432
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:20,040
Speaker 3: to that, you'll have plenty of time then to start

433
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:21,119
Speaker 3: feeling bad about that.

434
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:25,480
Speaker 1: Thank you. Are you concerned about Project twenty twenty five

435
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:29,119
Speaker 1: and how awful Trump's second term could be, Well, so

436
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:31,840
Speaker 1: are we, which is why we teamed up with iHeart

437
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:34,960
Speaker 1: to make a limited series with the experts on what

438
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 1: a disaster Project twenty twenty five would be for America's

439
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 1: future right now. We have just released the final episode

440
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:46,359
Speaker 1: of this five episode series. They're all available by looking

441
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 1: up Molly John Fast Project twenty twenty five on YouTube,

442
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,200
Speaker 1: and if you are more of a podcast person and

443
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,640
Speaker 1: not say a YouTuber, you can hit play and put

444
00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,080
Speaker 1: your phone in the lock screen and it will play

445
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:03,320
Speaker 1: back just like thet All five episodes are online now.

446
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:06,480
Speaker 1: We need to educate Americans on what Trump's second term

447
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:09,879
Speaker 1: would or could do to this country, so please watch

448
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:15,560
Speaker 1: it and spread the word. Lawrence Lessig is a Harvard

449
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:18,919
Speaker 1: professor and co author of How to Steal An Election.

450
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 1: Welcome to Fast Politics, Lawrence.

451
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 4: Great to be here, Thanks for having me.

452
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:26,679
Speaker 1: I think of you as someone who is not a

453
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:31,359
Speaker 1: radical leftist, okay, if that's the understatement of the year.

454
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:34,800
Speaker 1: And I'm hoping you could talk to us just about

455
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 1: where you are right now. You've written so much, You've

456
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:41,680
Speaker 1: taught at so many important places, you have such an

457
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:45,960
Speaker 1: important and meaningful academic career. Talk to us about where

458
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,440
Speaker 1: you are right now and your kind of I feel

459
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 1: like you've had a little bit of a political movement too.

460
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:55,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, my thought is not unique. I think

461
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 4: we're at a catastrophic moment with our democracy, and we're

462
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:02,480
Speaker 4: being a act on two fronts at once. One front

463
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:07,160
Speaker 4: is the deeply unrepresentative system we have for democracy, polluted

464
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:11,560
Speaker 4: most dramatically by the corrupting influence of money. So I've

465
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:13,879
Speaker 4: been an activist in trying to figure out how to

466
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,600
Speaker 4: flip that. I think we have a really exciting opportunity

467
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:19,479
Speaker 4: in main this election to pass an initiative that's going

468
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 4: to tee up the opportunity for the Supreme Court to

469
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,080
Speaker 4: say what they've never had a chance to say, which

470
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:27,480
Speaker 4: is the First Amendment does not protect super PACs, that

471
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 4: super PACs are not actually part of our constitutional armada.

472
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:35,199
Speaker 4: So that's, you know, I think we'll be progress on

473
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:37,640
Speaker 4: that front. But the second front is just recognizing how

474
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:42,200
Speaker 4: the business model of media is against the business model

475
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:45,440
Speaker 4: of democracy, Like the media makes money when it turns

476
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:47,920
Speaker 4: us into crazy people who hate each other, and when

477
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:51,159
Speaker 4: the reality of that, I think begins to be clear.

478
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:54,159
Speaker 4: I think what we have as a really important challenge

479
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,640
Speaker 4: about how do we move democracy into a place where

480
00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:01,560
Speaker 4: it's not vulnerable to these corrupting systemic effects from the

481
00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:02,480
Speaker 4: way media works.

482
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:05,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, we are having this conversation in the

483
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:08,960
Speaker 1: backdrop of decision. I assume you and I are both

484
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 1: reacting to this devastating news today that the Washington Post,

485
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:16,439
Speaker 1: known as a real beacon of democracy with a motto

486
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:20,199
Speaker 1: that says democracy dies in darkness, has decided not to

487
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:24,399
Speaker 1: endorse because their billionaire owner has decided it's not worth

488
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 1: a headache to piss off Donald Trump, which again Timothy

489
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 1: Schneider writes about, is this obeying in advance one of

490
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:35,639
Speaker 1: the rules of if you're going to fight authoritarianism, you

491
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 1: never do stuff.

492
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 4: Like this, right. Obviously, newspapers feel the pressure of the

493
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 4: current moment in a couple of important ways that the

494
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:50,320
Speaker 4: market is won, but the political response from an authoritarian

495
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 4: regime is another that is quite terrifying. You know, I

496
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 4: think Post in the New York Times, you know, at

497
00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 4: the time of the Pentagon papers, or the time that

498
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:05,720
Speaker 4: stories around Nixon came out, like took a gamble to

499
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 4: assume that they could behave the way we want newspapers

500
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 4: to behave and that they wouldn't be punished for it.

501
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 4: And the reality was they weren't punished for it by

502
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:16,120
Speaker 4: the administration in a way that was devastating, But I

503
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 4: get the fear. I just it's terrifying and depressing that

504
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 4: they seem to be responding to it so directly.

505
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I feel like because my grandfother went

506
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 1: to jail refusing to name names in the house and

507
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 1: non American activities, Howard Fast and you know, was he

508
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 1: a great guy, not especially cheated on every wife he

509
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 1: ever had, and was you know, very selfish in a

510
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 1: lot of ways. But you know, at the end of

511
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 1: the day, he could not not stand up for what

512
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 1: was right. And I think all of us are a

513
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 1: little shaken by the idea that billionaires are such bad actors.

514
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 1: But should we be.

515
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 4: No, we shouldn't be. I mean, you know, I think

516
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 4: that there's a psychological dimension to this in an obvious

517
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 4: economic dimention. So the psychological dimension is this weird you

518
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 4: know what Jared Linier refers to as kind of quitter poison,

519
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 4: like this weird phenomenon of like what happens when you

520
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 4: have these these technologies that give you this constant, adilating

521
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 4: a feedback from attention. And you know, people like Trump

522
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:15,479
Speaker 4: and and Elon have also obviously become addicted to this

523
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 4: and it changes them that's Lanier's point, like changes them

524
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 4: into much worse people than they were before this has happened.

525
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 4: So so that's that's one part of it. But the

526
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 4: other is just you know, they recognize that there's an

527
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 4: opportunity for enormous power when you've got a particularly authoritarian

528
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 4: character like Trump. You know they wouldn't you know, It's

529
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 4: not like you pick, like should I pick Harris or

530
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 4: should I pick Trump? And the return to the billionaire

531
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 4: would be the same, because obviously Harris's administration is going

532
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 4: to be one much more constrained by traditional rules of

533
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 4: law and like the necessity of behaving appropriately. I'm his

534
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 4: is going to be like crazy crazy town, and you know,

535
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 4: I'm terrified about what it will actually mean to have

536
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:01,719
Speaker 4: Elon Musk in the government, not to mention Rfk Junior

537
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 4: in the government with this guy at the top. Now,

538
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 4: the other you know possibility is it could be that

539
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:10,959
Speaker 4: these billionaires, you know, Peter Teel, he's an extremely intelligent

540
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 4: strategic player, is actually kind of counting on Trump burning

541
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 4: out pretty quickly, Like the twenty fifth Amendment could be

542
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:19,840
Speaker 4: invoked on day one. Then we have Jady Vance for

543
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 4: twelve years as president because he fills out Trump's term,

544
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 4: and then he gets to be elected twice. I mean,

545
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:27,840
Speaker 4: that's a genius play if what you're trying to do

546
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 4: is the power of just a couple powerful people.

547
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 1: There are a number of things I would say to

548
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 1: address this, but you're someone who's who's done a lot

549
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 1: of work in like sort of the norms that constrain.

550
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 1: When Trump picked Jadaman's I thought to myself, Jadavans is

551
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 1: going to twenty fifth amendment him right away. But I

552
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 1: now have a new theory, which hopefully won't have to happen.

553
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:50,280
Speaker 1: But I think there's a scenario where the one piece

554
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:52,520
Speaker 1: of good news about Donald Trump is that Donald Trump

555
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 1: is not easy to manipulate. Well, he's easy to manipulate,

556
00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 1: but he's not easy. He won't necessarily do what you want.

557
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:02,360
Speaker 1: And I've seen this historically, right Like, there are so

558
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 1: many members of that cabinet who thought that this guy

559
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 1: isn't so smart, and we'll just get him to do this,

560
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 1: this and this. But you know, he's got a sort

561
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 1: of chaos theory around him. For whatever reason, he's not loyal,

562
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 1: And so I could see a world where they try

563
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 1: to twenty fifth amendment him and he tries to destroy

564
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:20,520
Speaker 1: all of them.

565
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 4: You know, the dynamic of the twenty fifth Amendment is

566
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 4: they would say he needs to step aside, he says no,

567
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 4: I'm fine. Then that goes to Congress, and Congress needs

568
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 4: to vote. And if two thirds say he's got to go,

569
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 4: he's got to go. Now, what are the Democrats going

570
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 4: to do? Like, if you have a chance to get

571
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:37,400
Speaker 4: rid of Donald Trump, even though none of us would

572
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 4: like Jady Vance, would you rather Jadi Vance? Jady Vance

573
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 4: is not like he's not I mean.

574
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 1: He's not a chaos actor, but he's a bad guy.

575
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 4: Is it bad? Yeah? And he's connected obviously to money

576
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 4: in a way that's really troubling. But the point is,

577
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:54,560
Speaker 4: like I would think today that Democrats would say, yeah,

578
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 4: but all of this is premised on this decline that

579
00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 4: we're seeing continuing to a point where any fair person

580
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 4: could look at him and say, look, you have come

581
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 4: to a stage of your dementia that no longer is

582
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 4: it's appropriate for you to be president. I think that's happening.

583
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 4: I don't think you could have planned on that happening,

584
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:13,040
Speaker 4: but I think that's certainly happening. And if it happens,

585
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 4: then the Democrats are like, yeah, you've got to go.

586
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 4: And then who would be fearful of him? He can't

587
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 4: run for anything again. I mean, you know, then Republicans,

588
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:23,040
Speaker 4: all those Republicans who just hate to live in his

589
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 4: shadow and live under his control would have a chance

590
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 4: to for you know, independent fair reasons. Hey, he's got

591
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 4: to go. And then is jd Vance?

592
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean there are so many really terrible possible scenarios.

593
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 1: I'm wondering if there are so many. But let's talk

594
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 1: about this book he wrote about how to Steal an Election,

595
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 1: written before Trump was the nominee, and sort of walk

596
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 1: us through what's happening right now.

597
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 4: Well, I think the scariest so we went through nine scenarios.

598
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:55,480
Speaker 4: We had six that were possible I think for our

599
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:58,520
Speaker 4: live to keep me awake. But the one I'll focus

600
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 4: on because it's just a total unforced error, is the

601
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 4: one related to so called fake electors. You know, so

602
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 4: after twenty twenty, you know, four states, Georgia and Wisconsin,

603
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 4: in Michigan and Arizona prosecuted the so called fake electors

604
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:15,759
Speaker 4: and created this standard that basically said there was completely

605
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:19,439
Speaker 4: wrong for those fake electors to meet and cast their ballots. Well,

606
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:22,080
Speaker 4: I think Fates has a sense of irony, and I'm

607
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 4: fearful that we're going to be in a position in

608
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:28,200
Speaker 4: this election where Harris needs some fake electors because like,

609
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 4: let's take a scenario, imagine Georgia, Harris is slightly ahead.

610
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 4: Then a judge rules it a whole bunch of ballots

611
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 4: have to be thrown out because the absentee ballots, whatever

612
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 4: bullshit they say. Then the law, the new Electoral count

613
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:43,840
Speaker 4: Reform Act, forces the governor to certify six days before

614
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:46,840
Speaker 4: the electors are supposed to vote. So Camp has to certify,

615
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:49,239
Speaker 4: and he certifies who's ever ahead at that moment, and

616
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 4: so that happens to be Trump. And so then the

617
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 4: first question is what do the Harris electors do? Do

618
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 4: they show up and vote and be called fake electors

619
00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 4: because you know, Georgia has prosecuted the fake electors who

620
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,880
Speaker 4: showed up under Trump, they're not certified. If they don't vote,

621
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 4: then the appeal of the ballots that were thrown out stops.

622
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:09,680
Speaker 4: It becomes moot at that one. And so if they

623
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 4: do vote, then the law doesn't have any provision assuming

624
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:17,440
Speaker 4: that you know they're successful and the appeal concludes that

625
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:19,799
Speaker 4: the ballots should be counted and so therefore Harris is

626
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 4: the winner. Then there's no provision in the law for

627
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:26,799
Speaker 4: recertifying the winner of the election in Georgia, so that

628
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 4: the result of this is that you would have Trump

629
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:32,440
Speaker 4: certified even though the votes came out for Harris, And

630
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 4: then you've got to count on Congress doing the right thing,

631
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:37,960
Speaker 4: which you know, is not something one would count on

632
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:40,280
Speaker 4: in a context of a very close election where everybody's

633
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 4: accusing everybody of what kind of fraud? I think this

634
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:45,960
Speaker 4: is the one that I'm most fearful of, and it's

635
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:51,480
Speaker 4: completely unforced error because like in prosecuting the fake electors,

636
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:53,480
Speaker 4: I think people were more focused on how do we

637
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:56,799
Speaker 4: punish the Trump electors than how do we, you know,

638
00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:02,480
Speaker 4: create a safe process for picking the next president. And secondly, Congress,

639
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 4: in amending the Electoral count Reform Act, increase the pressure

640
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:10,319
Speaker 4: by shortening the period where people got to adjudicate these

641
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 4: questions and thereby created and incentive to kind of slow

642
00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 4: it down or to throw it from one side to

643
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:20,400
Speaker 4: the other side and exploit this kind of problem of certification.

644
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 4: So this dynamic, I think is the one that if

645
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 4: we're very close. We need to be prepared to respond

646
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:29,360
Speaker 4: to and they're very few people that can respond to it.

647
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:30,920
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, all the Democrats have said it's

648
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:34,600
Speaker 4: totally appropriate to have been prosecuting these electors. I think

649
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:37,840
Speaker 4: I'm the only one. I've written four expert reports or

650
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 4: three expert reports, and these various litigations about why it

651
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:44,319
Speaker 4: was wrong to be prosecuting these electors. So you know,

652
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 4: I think I'm the only one who's taken this position.

653
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 4: But you know, that's a pretty weak foundation to build

654
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 4: a resistance to the obvious move people are going to make,

655
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:55,880
Speaker 4: which is you're not allowed to vote hiros electors. You

656
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:57,120
Speaker 4: have to stay home, right.

657
00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 1: No, I mean that is a really terrifying scenario that

658
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 1: I hadn't even thought of. I appreciate you for bringing

659
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:11,239
Speaker 1: up something so incredibly crazy but also very possible. I mean,

660
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 1: we are really through the rabbit hole here with the

661
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:17,000
Speaker 1: idea that the fake electors could be the real electors.

662
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 1: Is something I had not thought about, but is really

663
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:23,360
Speaker 1: quite scary. Some of the poort cases, you know, Republicans

664
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:25,960
Speaker 1: have done a ton of cases. A lot of them

665
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:28,840
Speaker 1: have actually been settled for the good. Right, can you

666
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 1: talk us through that.

667
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:31,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean they've been settled for the good, but

668
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:34,640
Speaker 4: they're causing their intended harm. Like the point of these

669
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 4: cases is to begin to create the chaos environment, Like,

670
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:40,680
Speaker 4: you know, they want to be able to say, look,

671
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:43,520
Speaker 4: we've had to fight forty five cases or one hundred

672
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:46,759
Speaker 4: and fifty five cases to address all the problems in

673
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:49,320
Speaker 4: this election, and they're just getting going. Like the difference

674
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 4: between this election and twenty twenty is that the infrastructure

675
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:57,600
Speaker 4: of litigation on the Republican side is much more advanced

676
00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:01,240
Speaker 4: and much smarter. And that's terrifying because you know, Matt Seligman,

677
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:04,880
Speaker 4: my co author on that book and I in twenty

678
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:08,160
Speaker 4: twenty taught a course called Wargaming twenty twenty where the

679
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:11,400
Speaker 4: students like played through every single game they could play

680
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:14,239
Speaker 4: to flip the election. Of course we didn't imagine the

681
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,719
Speaker 4: Storm the Capitol on January sixth play, which you know

682
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 4: was literally the dumbest play they could have played. But

683
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:23,279
Speaker 4: the point is they were so inept on all the

684
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:25,880
Speaker 4: other plays through the course of like the election in

685
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 4: twenty twenty. They're not going to be inept this time.

686
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 4: I think they're very strategic, and I think we've got

687
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:34,480
Speaker 4: to be. You know, I'm actually worried that our side

688
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 4: is a little bit insufficiently strategic in recognizing exactly the

689
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 4: kind of move they're going to make.

690
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:42,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's really scary and for sure. I mean, the

691
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,320
Speaker 1: reality is, we have one party that no longer believes

692
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:49,120
Speaker 1: in American democracy, right, And I don't know how long

693
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:52,200
Speaker 1: you can go on like this in a country it's

694
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:56,319
Speaker 1: a two party system. One party wants democracy, the other

695
00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:00,040
Speaker 1: is really And if you ask these Trump supporters the

696
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 1: East will say they want to toocracy, they want that.

697
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:09,280
Speaker 1: How did this happen so quickly? And also it feels

698
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:13,480
Speaker 1: like we're in a death spiral. Make me feel better, please, Yeah.

699
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:14,880
Speaker 4: No, I can't do that. I'm not going to do that.

700
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:18,399
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, the reality is, I think there's

701
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:21,320
Speaker 4: a great statistic that Pugh has been collecting since nineteen

702
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 4: ninety seven, asking Americans whether they're confident in Americans political judgment.

703
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:29,959
Speaker 4: So in nineteen ninety seven, two thirds of Americans said yes,

704
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:33,399
Speaker 4: we're confident in Americans political judgment, and today two thirds

705
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:37,080
Speaker 4: say they're not. And this is not a surprising change

706
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:39,920
Speaker 4: because in the period since nineteen ninety seven until today,

707
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:44,840
Speaker 4: we've grown a media that constantly shows us the crazies

708
00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:47,440
Speaker 4: on the other side, like we are convinced, we are saying,

709
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:49,359
Speaker 4: and there are just crazies on this other side, and

710
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:52,840
Speaker 4: it's vice versa the same. So the very premise for

711
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:56,440
Speaker 4: democracy that we kind of believe in our our capacity,

712
00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:59,880
Speaker 4: whether we're entitled to or not, our capacity to like

713
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:05,319
Speaker 4: government is being eroded by as a byproduct of a

714
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:08,319
Speaker 4: business model to sell fricking ads. Like the idea that

715
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:11,880
Speaker 4: we're throwing away democracy because where you know, these companies

716
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:14,759
Speaker 4: are trying to maximize ad revenue is astonishing to me.

717
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:16,879
Speaker 4: But that, I think is really what's happening here.

718
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:19,520
Speaker 1: But the media. And I don't want to defend the

719
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:23,040
Speaker 1: media because as a member of it, we're such a disaster,

720
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 1: but it does seem to me like the media is

721
00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:29,560
Speaker 1: almost a meaningless rounding era at this point. And technology

722
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:31,520
Speaker 1: is really.

723
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:35,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, we're just using different words. By media, I mean

724
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:39,719
Speaker 4: the infrastructure of information feeding systems that we've got, so

725
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:44,600
Speaker 4: the Internet and cable and broadcasting these and newspapers and

726
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:47,840
Speaker 4: like podcasts whatever. This is all there. But the point

727
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:51,200
Speaker 4: is at the center now is a business model of

728
00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:54,880
Speaker 4: engagement and the byproduct of the business model of engagement

729
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:58,320
Speaker 4: is the weakening of democracy, because the most engaging content

730
00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:00,960
Speaker 4: is the content that convinces us that the other side's

731
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:05,439
Speaker 4: crazy and that we are saying, well, that dynamic is poisonous,

732
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:09,000
Speaker 4: just like you know, processed food, ultra processed food is poisonous.

733
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:13,320
Speaker 4: It's profitable but poisonous. And this is profitable but poisonous,

734
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:16,120
Speaker 4: and we don't have a simple way to imagine changing

735
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:16,760
Speaker 4: that dynamic.

736
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:19,400
Speaker 1: But the way we got here, and this is my

737
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:22,080
Speaker 1: own passion project, so maybe I'm wrong, but the way

738
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:25,759
Speaker 1: we got here is that the government refused to regulate anything.

739
00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:29,919
Speaker 4: Well, it's true the government doesn't regulate anything, but in fact,

740
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:32,759
Speaker 4: I don't think the government under our First Amendment would

741
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:36,279
Speaker 4: be able to regulate anything. The old fairness doctrine was

742
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:39,719
Speaker 4: premised on the idea that you were using public airways

743
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:42,760
Speaker 4: and as a quid pro quo for using public airways,

744
00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:45,720
Speaker 4: you had to provide meaningful public information service.

745
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:46,200
Speaker 1: Yeah.

746
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, And that argument that was defended in a case

747
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:52,880
Speaker 4: called Red Lion was pretty shaky as it was nineteen

748
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:55,560
Speaker 4: sixty nine, it was not clear it really made sense.

749
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:59,120
Speaker 4: But the point is, once they started building their own infrastructure,

750
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:03,680
Speaker 4: cable and fiber. Then the premise of the government's power

751
00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 4: is taken away. Like in the old days, yes, it's

752
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:08,279
Speaker 4: a common resource you're using, so quid pro quo, give

753
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:11,400
Speaker 4: us good service. But today they'd say, screw your common resource.

754
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:14,480
Speaker 4: Like we build these wires, like it's our wires. We

755
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:16,879
Speaker 4: get to put across ours whatever we want. So it's

756
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:18,760
Speaker 4: like we're allowed to publish in the New York Times

757
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:21,319
Speaker 4: paper whatever we want, right, And the point is, I

758
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:23,880
Speaker 4: think the Supreme Court would agree with them. So the

759
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:26,719
Speaker 4: idea that we can just imagine a new FCC with

760
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:29,600
Speaker 4: a new newt minnow who's going to stand up and

761
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:33,239
Speaker 4: like force media to behave I just think is a fantasy.

762
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:36,399
Speaker 4: It's not possible under our constitution Right now. We've got

763
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:38,400
Speaker 4: to think of other strategies to get us to a

764
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:42,120
Speaker 4: place where people love or respect or even entertain the

765
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:43,600
Speaker 4: idea that democracy could work.

766
00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:49,880
Speaker 1: Right, And what is that? Yeah, I'm sorry, it's like

767
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 1: the meanest question. Can you answer all of our problems? Now?

768
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:55,040
Speaker 1: In the last three minutes.

769
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:59,360
Speaker 4: I've become a real fan of the citizen assembly movements

770
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:03,200
Speaker 4: that you see these sparking, you know, pretty important changes

771
00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 4: in Ireland and in France and in some parts of

772
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:09,960
Speaker 4: the United States. But you know, that's we're just at

773
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:12,920
Speaker 4: such the early early beginning of that that you know,

774
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:15,520
Speaker 4: I don't think there's any solution in the next ten years.

775
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:17,479
Speaker 4: I think there's lots to do in the next ten years,

776
00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:19,399
Speaker 4: but we're not going to get to a place that

777
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:23,759
Speaker 4: feels like it felt when we felt maybe democracy was

778
00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:26,759
Speaker 4: broken in manageable ways. Now it just feels broken in

779
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:29,360
Speaker 4: unmanageable ways. And I don't know how we're going to

780
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:33,120
Speaker 4: deal with this now. Obviously, this election is critical because

781
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:35,640
Speaker 4: like if we if we get this election wrong, then

782
00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:40,239
Speaker 4: it spins into a kind of insanely crazy way. So

783
00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:42,200
Speaker 4: if we get this one right, I think, you know,

784
00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:45,360
Speaker 4: we can buy more time, but it's not going to

785
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:47,959
Speaker 4: be pretty. This next election or the next election after

786
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:51,600
Speaker 4: that is just going to be as corrupted by both

787
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:54,719
Speaker 4: the money on the one side and the structure of

788
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:55,560
Speaker 4: media on the other.

789
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:59,080
Speaker 1: Do you think that the Supreme Court sees how bad

790
00:43:59,160 --> 00:43:59,520
Speaker 1: it says?

791
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:04,720
Speaker 4: I think Roberts is like the only conservative who certainly

792
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 4: sees how bad this is. Maybe Amy Coney Barrett. I

793
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:10,400
Speaker 4: don't know her, but you know, I think you've got

794
00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:13,680
Speaker 4: people like Alito, whose view is screw it, I'm going

795
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:15,520
Speaker 4: to get We're going to get whatever we can get,

796
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:18,360
Speaker 4: and our white Christian nationalism is going to be advanced

797
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:21,839
Speaker 4: in an aggressive and self conscious way. And as long

798
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:24,520
Speaker 4: as we have five votes, I mean probably have six votes,

799
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:25,920
Speaker 4: but as long as we have five votes, that's all

800
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:26,279
Speaker 4: we need.

801
00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:29,439
Speaker 1: Is this the last bast of Christian nationalism? Is this

802
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:34,920
Speaker 1: this sort of death now of white supremacist stuff? Are

803
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:38,040
Speaker 1: they seeing in a country that they can no longer

804
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:41,160
Speaker 1: control and have their claw marks in it? Or am

805
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:42,520
Speaker 1: I being overly optimistic?

806
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:45,560
Speaker 4: Well? I do think that this is the election to

807
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 4: win that fight, because you know, the next eight years

808
00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:50,960
Speaker 4: will shift enough that it will not make sense to

809
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:53,279
Speaker 4: be white supremacist anymore. It's not to say that the

810
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:57,239
Speaker 4: conservative movement, you know, is dead, I mean, because you

811
00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:00,960
Speaker 4: know Latino's are I think our natural conservative. They're going

812
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:03,239
Speaker 4: to move to the conservative movement, and they would move

813
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:05,560
Speaker 4: quickly if they would just give up their racism, Like,

814
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:07,480
Speaker 4: so give up the racism, then you can begin to

815
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 4: attract a bunch of naturally conservative people. And you know,

816
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:13,759
Speaker 4: quite frankly, I'm a liberal, but I would love a

817
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:16,879
Speaker 4: politics where we had a healthy conservative like think about

818
00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:19,040
Speaker 4: the old days where what we were trying, we were

819
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:21,360
Speaker 4: finding about whether John McCain should be president or not.

820
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:24,399
Speaker 4: For God's sake, Imagine how wonderful it would be if

821
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:29,840
Speaker 4: the choice was Barack Obama or John McCain, or Mitt Romney.

822
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:31,480
Speaker 1: Or Barack Obama every day.

823
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:34,799
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean you can. It's not so hard to

824
00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 4: imagine getting to a place like that. But it requires

825
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:40,359
Speaker 4: a radical remake of the Republican Party, and I think

826
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:42,880
Speaker 4: ejecting the racism is going to be the first step.

827
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:45,439
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you, thank you for joining us.

828
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:51,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, glad to be here. Thanks for having me, no moment.

829
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:55,800
Speaker 1: Jesse Cannon Smay.

830
00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:58,960
Speaker 2: One of the things that I think shook a lot

831
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:02,600
Speaker 2: of Democrats about Petslvidia was that Republicans at these insaley

832
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:07,000
Speaker 2: high voter registration numbers in Pennsylvania. Well, it turns out

833
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:09,080
Speaker 2: there might be a reason why. What do you see

834
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:09,399
Speaker 2: it here?

835
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:15,480
Speaker 1: Pennsylvania officials are investigating fraudulent voter registration applications in Lancaster County.

836
00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:18,839
Speaker 1: Election workers identified issues with as many as twenty five

837
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:22,960
Speaker 1: hundred forms during a routine review. You're going to be

838
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 1: shocked to know in Lancaster County and guess who's involved.

839
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:28,520
Speaker 1: You're going to be shocked.

840
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:31,319
Speaker 2: Would it be someone who's a little too online.

841
00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:36,800
Speaker 1: It would be Scott Presler. You'll remember Scott Presler. He's

842
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:41,279
Speaker 1: a conservative activist with long hair who's an actor and

843
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:46,239
Speaker 1: his group Early Vote Actions seek to register Republicans in

844
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:50,879
Speaker 1: swing states like Pennsylvania. And he says that it has

845
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:55,640
Speaker 1: nothing to do with him, but we don't think so,

846
00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:59,040
Speaker 1: so we'll see what happens. But not very surprising. He

847
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:04,120
Speaker 1: brought his two voter registration message to Lancaster County and

848
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 1: it's reviewing twenty five hundred voter registration applications for possible fraud.

849
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:11,320
Speaker 2: Great stuff.

850
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:16,160
Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in

851
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:21,920
Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday to hear the best

852
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:26,319
Speaker 1: minds and politics make sense of all this chaos. If

853
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:29,400
Speaker 1: you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a friend

854
00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:33,040
Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. Thanks for listening.