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Speaker 1: Trust me? Do you trust me?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 3: Ever?

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Speaker 4: Lead you astray tr us.

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Speaker 1: This is the truth, the only truth.

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Speaker 2: If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't

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Speaker 2: welcome to trust me. The podcast about Colt's extreme belief

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Speaker 2: and manipulation from two former bookworms who've actually experienced it.

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Speaker 4: I'm Lola Blanc, I'm Megan Elizabeth. That introduction will make

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Speaker 4: sense later, are you guys?

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Speaker 2: I promise I wish I could honestly say I'm a

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Speaker 2: current bookworm, but let's be honest. The reading is, the

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Speaker 2: reading is diminished at the age of social media. That's okay,

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Speaker 2: thank you? Yeah today. Our guests are Erica Lance and

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Speaker 2: Alan Lance Lesser, two sisters and hosts of the podcast

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Speaker 2: The Turning. Each season they cover a different community or

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Speaker 2: story of devotion and abuse, including previously nuns and ballerinas,

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Speaker 2: and now their latest season explores the story of the

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Speaker 2: River Road Fellowship, following a girl named Lindsay. They're going

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Speaker 2: to tell us about how after a mysterious dinner guest

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Speaker 2: named victim Or Bernard showed up to Lindsay's house, her

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Speaker 2: parents moved her family out to his religious compound in

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Speaker 2: rural Minnesota. We'll talk about how life changed on the compound,

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Speaker 2: becoming more and more restrictive and isolated from the outside world,

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Speaker 2: how they couldn't leave a thirty minute radius of the

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Speaker 2: camp in case Jesus came back, and how Lindsay was

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Speaker 2: forced to burn her only form of escape, her beloved books.

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Speaker 4: We'll also hear about how Lindsay was then selected for

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Speaker 4: what was seemingly an honorable position as one of Victor's

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Speaker 4: so called maidens, a group of ten girls and women

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Speaker 4: sent to live next door to Victor and devote their

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Speaker 4: lives to him. We'll discuss how things only got more

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Speaker 4: disturbing from there, with Lindsay and her parents never being

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Speaker 4: told what this would actually entail, the unusual plans she

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Speaker 4: was making to try to escape, and of course we'll

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Speaker 4: talk about how she finally did.

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Speaker 2: And this episode will contain descriptions of sexual assault and abuse.

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Speaker 2: As a heads up, so before we get into it

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Speaker 2: with Erica and Allen, Megan, what's your callest thing this week?

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Speaker 4: My cultiest thing of the week is something that happened

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Speaker 4: actually two weeks ago, so I hope it's not cheating. Okay,

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Speaker 4: two weeks ago, I went to the Backstreet Boys at

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Speaker 4: the Sphere. Oh you did for a bachelorette party. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: oh I did, indeed. Okay, So let me just walk

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Speaker 4: you through a few of the culty elements of this

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Speaker 4: please experience. We're all supposed to dress in white. Really,

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Speaker 4: yeah because of the millennium.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, because they were all wearing white maybe

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Speaker 2: and yeah, okay.

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Speaker 4: So it's at the Sphere. So there's thousands of people

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Speaker 4: all dressed in white. And people didn't really explain the

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Speaker 4: sphere correctly to me in my opinion, like they'd be like, oh,

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Speaker 4: is that the sphere?

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Speaker 2: They have images.

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Speaker 4: I didn't realize that it was a three hundred and

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Speaker 4: sixty degree ride that you're essentially going on in this stadium.

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Speaker 4: It's like the visuals are completely around you. It's like

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Speaker 4: being on the Back to the Future ride at Whoa

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Speaker 4: really for two hours?

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Speaker 1: Whoa.

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Speaker 2: I did not know that either.

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Speaker 4: So here's what the Backstreet Boys are hearkening and their

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Speaker 4: tour that is selling out. Everybody's coming. Very apocalyptic in

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Speaker 4: my opinion, I've gone full Remember Josie and the Pussycats,

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Speaker 4: the best movie ever made. Of course, Operation Big Concert.

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Speaker 4: This is Operation Big Concert. Okay.

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Speaker 2: I actually don't remember that, Okay.

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Speaker 4: Whatever they're preparing us, they're making it normal for our

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Speaker 4: brains to think that things are like like they're like

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Speaker 4: everybody and there's just like cities on fire in the

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Speaker 4: background of them and like aliens coming down and shit.

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Speaker 4: And I was like, oh my god. They're like they're

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Speaker 4: like normalizing all of this.

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Speaker 2: Like everything's fine, fine, having a good time exactly. Wow.

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Speaker 4: I was just like, oh shit. And then all my friends,

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Speaker 4: I'm sober, my friends were not. And the girl getting

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Speaker 4: married was wearing a veil, you know, like a pretty

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Speaker 4: vale and she's super cute, and one of the Backstitt

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Speaker 4: boys was like hyper focused on big like when you.

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Speaker 2: Were that close to the stage, were like, wow, You're like,

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna give you my hat and she like, oh

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Speaker 2: my god, an honor.

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Speaker 4: And she looked over at me because she's like kind

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Speaker 4: of you know, not on and she goes, is this

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Speaker 4: really happening? And I was like, yes, I don't know

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Speaker 4: how any of the wow. And so yeah, you go

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Speaker 4: on this UFO apocalyptic journey and then why no clue?

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Speaker 4: Then you leave And like another weird thing was that

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Speaker 4: all these like ninety celebrities were there, so they're obviously like,

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Speaker 4: you know, giving people free tickets. It was like the

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Speaker 4: cast of nine oh two one oh from like from

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Speaker 4: Sure ninety two. I was just like, this is such

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Speaker 4: a strange, strange, strange thing that was falty amusing it.

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Speaker 2: It sounds fun as hell.

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Speaker 4: It was fun as hell, and I was like salty

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Speaker 4: about going because I don't like the Backstreet Boys. You don't, No,

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Speaker 4: I don't. I was like a three to eleven prodigy girl,

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Speaker 4: like I liked, Oh, you were edgy. I didn't know

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Speaker 4: it at the time, but I guess I was. I

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Speaker 4: just didn't like.

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Speaker 1: I don't.

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Speaker 4: I don't. I didn't like it, and I'm not trying

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Speaker 4: to be cool because I'm not cool. At the same time,

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Speaker 4: I was reading babies that are club books. While I

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Speaker 4: was doing it, I liked it. Yeah, so you know,

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Speaker 4: I wasn't thrilled to go. But then I didn't even

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Speaker 4: listen to them or look at them. I was just

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Speaker 4: in the UFO going through like keyholes and space. It

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Speaker 4: honestly felt like you would like, go through one keyhole

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Speaker 4: and then they'd beg infinity is real. I can't. I can't.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Well, now I really you're selling me on it.

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Speaker 2: Now I have to go. I wanted to go already.

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Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, the Nick Carter allegations are a bum

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Speaker 2: and that's what they're their allegations right allegedly there are

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Speaker 2: several several where there's smoke, there's fire.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. So again I wasn't walking in with the highest

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Speaker 4: of hopes. I left knowing that end of the world

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Speaker 4: isn't I because the Backstreet Boys are telling us so well. Also,

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Speaker 4: Max Martin was there. He was yeah, and they put

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Speaker 4: a spotlight on him and they were like, Max Martin,

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Speaker 4: thank you for everything, like.

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Speaker 2: Hello, That's how Swedish people talk to Someone's gonna be

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Speaker 2: offended by that, but they will no, no, no, okay,

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Speaker 2: you know I I have yet to have an encounter

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Speaker 2: with the Backstreet Boys, but I feel like I have done.

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Speaker 2: This is not really relevant at all, but I have

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Speaker 2: no problem As a songwriter. I have had a songwriting

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Speaker 2: sessions with like kind of the greatest hits of my childhood.

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Speaker 2: Cool except for a Backstreet Boy. So I did I

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Speaker 2: wrote a Britney Spears song, Yes you did. I did

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Speaker 2: one songwriting session with Scary Spice but her weird ex

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Speaker 2: husband was there. Who that's an episode, Lolo, Yeah she didn't.

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Speaker 2: They neither of them remembered me after. It's so the

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Speaker 2: whole thing was so weird. But then I also did

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Speaker 2: a writing session with J. C. Chase from in Sync. Okay, okay,

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Speaker 2: nothing ever happened with that song, but I like, I

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Speaker 2: need to get the like Backstreet Boys to really complete.

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Speaker 4: Well, one of them is very interested in my friend,

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Speaker 4: so I would choose that one.

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Speaker 2: Okay, well, I will bring her to the next show

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Speaker 2: and they just stand really close to her.

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Speaker 4: That's wild. Yeah, that was really funny. What about you?

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Speaker 4: What's your cultiest thing of the week.

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Speaker 2: I honestly had so many and I didn't write them down.

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Speaker 2: So this is a lesson to my future self create

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Speaker 2: to write the shit down, Lola. I just feel like

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Speaker 2: there's so much, so much that scamp right now, but

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Speaker 2: I'll focus on this one thing. So I followed this

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Speaker 2: account called Perfect Union. They make these great documentaries for

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Speaker 2: social media. I'm sure they exist off of social media too,

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Speaker 2: but more Perfect Union they made a fifteen minute documentary

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Speaker 2: about how they created a wellness scam and how easy

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Speaker 2: it was to do that, and basically they were like, Okay,

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Speaker 2: we're going to make up a name for this, like

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Speaker 2: wellness company, and it was I believe deep State supplement,

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Speaker 2: like something with deep State at the front, right, so

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Speaker 2: you know who it's appealing to immediately. And then they

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Speaker 2: just like reached out to a random pill manufacturer and

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Speaker 2: they were like, we want to fight five G and

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Speaker 2: make brains better, you know, just like yeah, these like

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Speaker 2: wild claims, and of course they responded and were like,

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Speaker 2: we can do that, and then they did that and

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Speaker 2: they started marketing it, and it's just so easy to do.

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Speaker 4: And in this.

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Speaker 2: Little doc they point out how you know, supplements are

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Speaker 2: not regulated like medications are because they're classified as food, right,

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Speaker 2: and that means that they can be marketed without any

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Speaker 2: pre market approval and they are not required to prove

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Speaker 2: efficacy in any way, and they will only be removed

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Speaker 2: from the market once it's shown to actively cause harm.

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Speaker 2: So you can just come up with whatever idea, make

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Speaker 2: any claim you want.

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Speaker 4: Basically, well, Lola, you're giving everyone, including myself, so many

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Speaker 4: business ideas.

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Speaker 2: This is not business advice.

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Speaker 4: I did not know you could do such a thing.

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Speaker 2: You can make any claim basically about any supplement and

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Speaker 2: put it to and like put.

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Speaker 4: It on the marks the claim of the supplement.

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Speaker 2: Theirs was one of them was like fighting five G

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Speaker 2: and one of them was something else related to conspiracy

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Speaker 2: theorists beliefs I forget. And then there was one that

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Speaker 2: was like I can't remember the language, I should have

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Speaker 2: written it down, but something really really vague about like improving.

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Speaker 4: Your brain state or whatever got you.

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Speaker 2: So there's no like actual thing that is based in

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Speaker 2: science and what they're saying. But the pill manufacturer is

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Speaker 2: immediately like, of course we can do that, in other words,

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Speaker 2: just to demonstrate that, like you can make anything up

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Speaker 2: as the stated goal of your pill, and you will

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Speaker 2: have people who want your money responding to being like totally, yes,

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Speaker 2: we got and just like making a random ingredient the

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Speaker 2: ingredient for that exactly exactly, and then the fact that

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Speaker 2: you could just put it on the market and like

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Speaker 2: something that I just am finding so interesting is like

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Speaker 2: we're obviously, you know, rightfully much of the time a

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Speaker 2: critical of the pharmaceutical industry, but the wellness industry is

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Speaker 2: estimated to be worth two hundred billion dollars by the

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Speaker 2: end of this year, and it's completely unregulated. YEA, why

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Speaker 2: is that not something that we're critical of? In the

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Speaker 2: same way when there's so many random influencers online telling

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Speaker 2: you they're going to fix everything about your body and brain.

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Speaker 4: The only thing that can actually help you is my supplement.

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Speaker 2: And what's it called. It's called Perfect Life. Is there

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Speaker 2: something called I bet you there's one called Perfect Life.

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Speaker 4: Megan's Perfect Life TM and no, it's true. It's true.

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Speaker 4: It's a completely unregulated market. You and I have very

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Speaker 4: different opinions on the wallness industry. Some of it I'm

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Speaker 4: find to be very helpful and legitimate, but it is

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Speaker 4: not helped by the fact that you can do that.

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Speaker 2: Anybody can do it and say anything. Yeah, like I'm

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Speaker 2: of course, there are going to be some supplements that

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Speaker 2: are helpful for certain things, but it's impossible to determine

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Speaker 2: without like picking apart what works and what doesn't through research,

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Speaker 2: and that just isn't being done, is the problem exactly.

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Speaker 4: That's why when we made Megan's Perfect Life, we ran

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Speaker 4: test trials for three to five years.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, oh that's that's great. Yeah, so go buy it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, there's so much more to say on the

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Speaker 2: wellness industry. Also, yeah, you know what we should, let's

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Speaker 2: do that, all right, But for now we should hear

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Speaker 2: Lindsay's story. Yes, through the voices of Erica and Allen,

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Speaker 2: who got to spend so much time with her. Let's

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Speaker 2: do it. Welcome Aileen and Erica to trust me. Thank you.

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Speaker 1: We're so excited to be here.

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Speaker 2: We're so excited to have you. This is such an incredible,

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Speaker 2: harrowing season and you guys did an incredible job on it,

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Speaker 2: and we have so many questions for you. First of all,

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Speaker 2: so this is actually the third season of your podcast,

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Speaker 2: The Turning, and each season delves into a different sort

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Speaker 2: of story in different people, but they have recurring themes.

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Speaker 2: Can you tell us what made you decide to start

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Speaker 2: the podcast in the first place and what the other

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Speaker 2: seasons were about? Whoever wants to begin Hayleen, do you

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Speaker 2: want to go?

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Speaker 1: You can take it?

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Speaker 3: Erica, Well, we are very interested in how abuse happens

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Speaker 3: and how it often happens while people are pursuing a

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Speaker 3: very important, lofty goal or something that they love. So

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Speaker 3: season one was about Mother Trees's really religious order and

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Speaker 3: former nuns who were there to help others and wanted

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Speaker 3: to follow Mother Teresa help the poor, were there to love,

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Speaker 3: but the order was so conservative and intense and restrictive

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Speaker 3: and controlling that it led to a lot of abuse.

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Speaker 3: Season two was about ballerinas who want to pursue their art,

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Speaker 3: and when art is like a religion to you, when

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Speaker 3: art it means everything to you, you're willing to give

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Speaker 3: up so much for it. That also leads to a

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Speaker 3: lot of complicated power dynamics and often abuse. You know,

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Speaker 3: Seasons one and two were really about cult like groups

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Speaker 3: that are very accepted by society. Season three was about

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Speaker 3: a cult whose leader is now in prison. So it's

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Speaker 3: kind of the next level of this type of group.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, much smaller, much more cut off from the mainstream.

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Speaker 4: And how are you introduced to the story at all?

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Speaker 4: How did you find it? Well?

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Speaker 3: I think we just encountered it in the media, but

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Speaker 3: I remember I encountered it actually years after it was

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Speaker 3: really big in the news, so I felt behind on it.

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Speaker 3: Now at the time, I was living elsewhere in Philadelphia,

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Speaker 3: so and this takes place in Minnesota, where we're from,

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Speaker 3: So maybe I missed it for that reason. But I

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Speaker 3: couldn't believe that having been from Minneapolis, and then now

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Speaker 3: I live here in Minneapolis again, I couldn't believe that

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Speaker 3: I hadn't heard about this story when it was so

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Speaker 3: extreme and so wild. When also, I'm somebody who's interested

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Speaker 3: in cults, and here we were with this podcast focused

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Speaker 3: on problematic power dynamics and power hierarchies. I just thought,

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Speaker 3: why don't we focus in on this because there's something

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Speaker 3: that just feels personal about it because it existed about

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Speaker 3: two hours away from where we grew up while we

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Speaker 3: were growing up. And then when we looked into it

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Speaker 3: more and looked up one of the whistleblowers of the group,

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Speaker 3: who was also one of the youngest of the members

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Speaker 3: and also held a special role in the hierarchy of

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Speaker 3: the group. When we found her online and we saw

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Speaker 3: she was in her thirties somewhat near our age, and

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Speaker 3: got connected with her. Her name is Lindsay Tornambi, and

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Speaker 3: we started interviewing her. We really thought, Wow, this is

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Speaker 3: quite a story that more people need to hear and

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Speaker 3: that deserves more space to get more deeply into. You know,

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Speaker 3: it is kind of a luxury to be able to

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Speaker 3: have ten episodes plus maybe some bonus episodes totally focused

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Speaker 3: on one group and what it actually feels like and

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Speaker 3: really homing in on just a few stories within that

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Speaker 3: world and getting to know what it actually felt like.

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Speaker 2: I really appreciate how much time we spend with Lindsay

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Speaker 2: listening to her experience. It just like it reminded me

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Speaker 2: of so many different groups. But I feel like, you know,

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Speaker 2: we hear a lot less about the ins and outs

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Speaker 2: of the dynamics of what exactly was going on in

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Speaker 2: their minds all the time, because just isn't that much

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Speaker 2: time to talk to people.

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Speaker 4: Honestly, absolutely, yeah, And I could have listened to ten

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Speaker 4: more episodes you know the story. Yeah, yeah, it's absolutely unbelievable.

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Speaker 2: Was there something I mean, I want to get into

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Speaker 2: Lindsay's story as well, but I'm just curious, like, is

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Speaker 2: there something in particular in your lives growing up that

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Speaker 2: drew you to this kind of topic.

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Speaker 3: I think, I don't know, there's so many layers to this.

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Speaker 3: I mean, well, I think one thing about my background

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Speaker 3: in particular was that I actually used to study psychology

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Speaker 3: and did psychology research and was trained in giving therapy,

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Speaker 3: and I worked with a number of people who experienced

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Speaker 3: manipulation or also experienced sexual abuse. And I think just

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Speaker 3: the extremes of the human experience has always been something

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Speaker 3: I've been fascinated with and I don't know why, even

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Speaker 3: though it's I mean, it's a history of mine. That's

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Speaker 3: I guess professional When you're seeing patients, it starts to

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Speaker 3: feel personal in hearing their stories and how deeply it

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Speaker 3: impacts them for decades. And honestly, in each of the seasons,

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Speaker 3: we look at power dynamics and how they play out

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Speaker 3: in groups, but also how that can lead to these

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Speaker 3: abusive dynamics, whether it's emotional abuse or physical abuse, financial abuse,

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Speaker 3: simple isolation, or sexual abuse. I think we touch on

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Speaker 3: all those topics in each of our seasons, and it's

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Speaker 3: certainly true for this one. I also think, I guess,

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Speaker 3: just on a personal level, we grew up going to

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Speaker 3: a Catholic school when we weren't Catholic. We were also,

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Speaker 3: did I mention that we are sisters, So yeah, that's.

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Speaker 2: An important detail. So you're saying, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: We do everything together.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if you want to speak to that

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Speaker 3: at all, Erica, I don't need to answer the entirety

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Speaker 3: of the question. Well, yeah, I think we just grew

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Speaker 3: up very interested in comparative religion and how different religious

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Speaker 3: organizations work because we were living in sort of different

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Speaker 3: religious worlds and seeing like learning different dogma, different ceremonies,

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Speaker 3: and I don't know, I think that made me very

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Speaker 3: fascinated with religion. The reason I said earlier Alan, that

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Speaker 3: I think of you is she has, I think, because

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Speaker 3: of her experienced treating patients, just been very passionate about

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Speaker 3: child sexual abuse and how it is portrayed in the media,

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Speaker 3: what kind of space it's given, how survivors are treated,

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Speaker 3: and so I think that made us just very passionate

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Speaker 3: about this season in particular.

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Speaker 2: Well, can you tell us a little bit about Lindsay,

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Speaker 2: the protagonist of the series, and what her life was

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Speaker 2: like before her parents met Victor Bernard.

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Speaker 3: Had such a classic nineties childhood, which Alan and I

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Speaker 3: really related to. So many things she told us about

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Speaker 3: her childhood were like us too, us too, us too,

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Speaker 3: two boys, beanie.

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Speaker 2: Babies, Yeah yeah, same yeah.

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Speaker 3: So you know, as you talk about constantly on your show,

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Speaker 3: it can really happen to anyone. Her parents were religious,

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Speaker 3: and they were in an organization called The Way, which

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Speaker 3: has also been accused of being a cult, which the

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Speaker 3: leader of River Road Fellowship was also in, and they

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Speaker 3: also were involved in things like Amway and The way

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Speaker 3: Lindsay puts it is her parents were always looking for

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Speaker 3: a leader or someone to follow, and they were seeking

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Speaker 3: and they would hold religious fellowships in their home, like

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Speaker 3: prayer meetings and speak in tongues. So religion was a

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Speaker 3: big part of her childhood. But was it nine years

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Speaker 3: old Alan that she her parents had some dinner guests over,

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Speaker 3: one of whom was Victor Bernard, the leader of River

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Speaker 3: Road Fellowship, and they learned that he had created this

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Speaker 3: compound in rural Minnesota where a bunch of families were

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Speaker 3: living together in what seemed like a really idyllic, beautiful way,

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Speaker 3: and that was how they got introduced to River Road

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Speaker 3: Fellowship and changed all their lives. What stood out to

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Speaker 3: me about that was that she loved gymnastics, and then

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Speaker 3: suddenly they were like, no more gymnastics. I mean, it

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Speaker 3: really was like the childhood version of a dinner from

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Speaker 3: how that your parents go to and suddenly everything.

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Speaker 2: Semeed portal to a nightmare.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well, firstly, one detail about Lindsay that I thought was

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Speaker 2: so relatable was they were still in the previous church

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Speaker 2: or cult. She was talking about how she didn't know

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Speaker 2: how to speak in tongues, so she would plan, she

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Speaker 2: would like write out in advance what she was going

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Speaker 2: to verbalize when she was speaking tongues, which feels totally

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Speaker 2: like something that I would do. And yeah, I just

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Speaker 2: thought that was It's really cute, really cute.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, she was planning ahead.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, very responsible.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: It's amazing how sometimes you feel like, oh, I'm the

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Speaker 3: only person who has to plan, but then when you

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Speaker 3: get older, you learn how everyone is planning what they're

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Speaker 3: going to say, and everyone is feeling so self conscious

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Speaker 3: about it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I mean, isn't that kind of becoming an adult? You're

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Speaker 3: kind of like we're all frauds, you know.

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Speaker 4: Yea, the Emperor has no clothes is what I always

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Speaker 4: go back to, Like it's that childhood story, you know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean we've talked a million times about like

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Speaker 2: trying to feel the spirit when everyone else is feeling

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Speaker 2: the spirit and they're crying and you're like, I'm doing

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Speaker 2: it wrong.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 2: He must have been the most compelling dinner guest of

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Speaker 2: all time, because how can that much happen from such

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Speaker 2: a dinner? Like, did you get any details about what

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Speaker 2: was discussed?

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Speaker 3: I mean I think I think it was like kind

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Speaker 3: of a friend of a friend. What's interesting to me

401
00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:56,399
Speaker 3: is that Lindsay describes remembering him as sensing right away

402
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Speaker 3: that this was someone of importance. He had a certain

403
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Speaker 3: presence and he did also have a charisma. But also

404
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Speaker 3: it's interesting how and I feel like I sense this

405
00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:09,639
Speaker 3: across numerous of our seasons. It's like the people that

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Speaker 3: are idolized both feel very special, but also they're very

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Speaker 3: ordinary too, Like she talked about how he really smelled

408
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Speaker 3: strongly of cigarettes and they were like basically chain smoking

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Speaker 3: cigarettes on the front porch when they visited, and just

410
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Speaker 3: felt very ordinary at the same time, and in a way,

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Speaker 3: Lindsey remarked on how it didn't actually feel that significant,

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Speaker 3: you know, and they were, you know, putting on a

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Speaker 3: little singing and dancing show for them in their living room.

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Speaker 1: Like the children.

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Speaker 3: It was very casual and kind of ordinary, And I

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Speaker 3: do think it wasn't just like one dinner and they

417
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Speaker 3: were in there moving to Minnesota. It was actually a

418
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Speaker 3: gradual process where, you know, first they would join some

419
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Speaker 3: fellowship meetings where the way the group started out were

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Speaker 3: just in fellowship meetings in people's homes kind of basically

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Speaker 3: prayer groups, and then over time it became more defined,

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Speaker 3: and eventually they bought the property in Minnesota for everyone

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Speaker 3: to move to. And so then Lindsay's family started visiting

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Speaker 3: the camp, the compound basically in Minnesota, and they went

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Speaker 3: there and they saw the beautiful lake and the pond

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Speaker 3: and all the trees, and basically it felt like a

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Speaker 3: summer camp where there are all these cabins and trailers

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Speaker 3: and a lodge and there's a dining hall and they're

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Speaker 3: all singing songs together and enjoying each other's company.

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Speaker 1: And as a kid, they're playing.

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Speaker 4: Sign me Up.

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Speaker 2: Yeah sounds right, Yeah, yeah, I'm men.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: It felt like this wonderful place, and I can I

435
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Speaker 3: can see the temptation of just letting it all go

436
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Speaker 3: and moving to this place where everyone seems so happy,

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Speaker 3: and that's what her parents decided. After multiple visits, Victor,

438
00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:56,520
Speaker 3: the leader of the group, Victor Bernard, gave them an

439
00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,320
Speaker 3: ultimatum and said, if you're going to continue to be

440
00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:03,280
Speaker 3: a part of our group, River Road Fellowship, you need

441
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:06,479
Speaker 3: to move out to Minnesota. And that required them to

442
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:11,600
Speaker 3: sell their home, sell all their quote earthly things, and

443
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:14,919
Speaker 3: even getting rid of family members photos and all that

444
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:17,480
Speaker 3: kind of thing. They sold their home very quickly, I

445
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 3: would imagine, probably getting a bad deal on it, and

446
00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:24,480
Speaker 3: within weeks they were moving out to Minnesota after that

447
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:28,120
Speaker 3: ultimatum conversation. So I do think it wasn't like that

448
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:29,879
Speaker 3: one dinner change everything.

449
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 1: It was a gradual thing.

450
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,680
Speaker 2: Right right, right, That is my miss for memory now.

451
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:38,440
Speaker 3: Well, I mean also at the same time, it was

452
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:40,480
Speaker 3: a pivotal moment, was.

453
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:43,120
Speaker 4: His message from the beginning, this is the one true

454
00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:46,639
Speaker 4: way come to this compound, this is where and like

455
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,080
Speaker 4: I'm the prophet, You're going to be saved. I mean,

456
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:51,520
Speaker 4: I know there was a very like when Jesus comes back,

457
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:54,119
Speaker 4: like the compound's going straight to Heaven. Did it start

458
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 4: off that way? Like was that the impetus of like,

459
00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:57,640
Speaker 4: let's hurry, let's move.

460
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:00,960
Speaker 3: My impression is that it didn't me imediately begin with

461
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:05,320
Speaker 3: Jesus's coming any day. You know, even before Lindsay's family joined,

462
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:08,480
Speaker 3: it was so much more casual, and it was these

463
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:11,919
Speaker 3: casual prayer groups. And I also think he catered the

464
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:15,440
Speaker 3: message to what people needed. Another person we interview is

465
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:17,879
Speaker 3: named Christa, and like Lindsay, she was a child in

466
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 3: the cult, but in her case, she was basically born

467
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 3: into it, and her parents joined long before Linday's parents did.

468
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 3: And in the case of her parents, they were already

469
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,560
Speaker 3: friends through work with Victor and his wife, and they

470
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:32,080
Speaker 3: were very done with organized religion because they'd had bad experiences,

471
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:34,320
Speaker 3: and they said, look, we believe in God, but we're

472
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:37,200
Speaker 3: done with organized religion. And Victor said, if you love God,

473
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:39,720
Speaker 3: you will love this, and so that was what they

474
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 3: needed to hear to join. And so I don't think

475
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:44,040
Speaker 3: they ever thought, oh, yes, let's join a cult, let's

476
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 3: join organized religion. That's what they didn't want. But as

477
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,879
Speaker 3: time passed, you start getting more messaging about Jesus's return

478
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:53,439
Speaker 3: is coming, we have to be ready. And it was

479
00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 3: much easier to have those more extreme, urgent messages once

480
00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:00,880
Speaker 3: they were all living in the same place, right as.

481
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:04,040
Speaker 2: Typically it will escalate over time once everyone's under control

482
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:06,439
Speaker 2: because no one's advertising where it's going to go.

483
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 4: The playbook the playbook at play Yeah.

484
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:13,159
Speaker 2: Side note, So in the podcast, y'all talk about how

485
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:18,600
Speaker 2: Victor Bernard was class president, right, Yes, my profit in

486
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,240
Speaker 2: quotes that I believed in was also a class president

487
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 2: I found out, which is fascinating to me, it's like

488
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:29,359
Speaker 2: they want to lead somehow, and they you know, they

489
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:32,200
Speaker 2: could have gone into politics or you know, some other

490
00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 2: like less nefarious path, but instead they chose to control

491
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:37,680
Speaker 2: people for a living.

492
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:40,760
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, and they have that training of getting people

493
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:42,760
Speaker 3: to vote for them. I mean, I'm rising high school.

494
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:44,880
Speaker 3: I always thought, how does anyone go for class president?

495
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 3: Maybe I just was so unpopular that I was like,

496
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 3: how do you convince the school to vote for you?

497
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, It's it's funny how those dynamic There's an ambition,

498
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 4: there's a desire to be above people, or it could

499
00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:59,240
Speaker 4: just be an ambisson to organize your school, you know,

500
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:00,960
Speaker 4: but like, yeah.

501
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,440
Speaker 2: I just I've never heard of that before. So you

502
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:04,960
Speaker 2: drew a connection.

503
00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:06,159
Speaker 4: Yeah, I get Yeah.

504
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,359
Speaker 3: And it's also the age old question of is it

505
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,200
Speaker 3: that people who seek power are those who are more

506
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 3: likely to abuse or is it that power corrupts? It's

507
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 3: like I can never figure out what the answer is.

508
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 3: And there's some kind of interaction there.

509
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 1: Yeah.

510
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 2: So once they get there, I mean the fact that

511
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:35,560
Speaker 2: they immediately had to get rid of all of their possessions.

512
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 2: I mean people were also they burned their possessions and

513
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:41,000
Speaker 2: a fire. Can you talk about that a little bit.

514
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 3: The whole idea was that they were supposed to leave

515
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:49,200
Speaker 3: behind their earthly life, So leave behind anything that reminds

516
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,199
Speaker 3: you of your past, of your childhood, of anything that

517
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:56,119
Speaker 3: happened before you were part of River Road Fellowship. And

518
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,439
Speaker 3: so one way that they wanted to literally do that,

519
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,840
Speaker 3: but also kind of I would argue symbolically, was they

520
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:07,200
Speaker 3: built this big bonfire in the middle of the back

521
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:11,160
Speaker 3: of a yard, behind a barn on their compound in Minnesota,

522
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 3: and they just started throwing belongings from their past into

523
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:20,440
Speaker 3: the fire, and everyone was encouraged to burn things from

524
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 3: their past, anything that would hold them back from giving

525
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,879
Speaker 3: all of themselves to the group. They threw in couches,

526
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 3: they threw in you know, all kinds of things, to

527
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 3: the point.

528
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:33,879
Speaker 1: A motorcycle, I think a motor cycle.

529
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 2: Just wow, all these.

530
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 3: Belongings that reminded them of the past, VHS's like videotapes, books,

531
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:46,360
Speaker 3: And then Lindsay felt like she had to throw something in.

532
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 3: And she was so young she was she thought to herself,

533
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,200
Speaker 3: what's something that's important to me from my past that

534
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 3: I can give, And so she threw in her Teddy

535
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:56,440
Speaker 3: Bear into the fire.

536
00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 4: And watched That's so sad burned for like three days

537
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 4: and was gigantic. Correct.

538
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's creepy. That is really creepy. I wrote a

539
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 2: scene in a cult movie that's almost exactly this, but

540
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 2: I've never heard of it actually.

541
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:17,720
Speaker 4: Can Wow, how do you responsibly keep a fire?

542
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 2: That? I guess it's not irresponsibly?

543
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,720
Speaker 4: Yes, and how you I don't know.

544
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 2: Also, just the pollution anyway, I mean, yeah, it's just

545
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 2: like the elimination of identity and attachment to one's previous

546
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 2: life and connections to other people or things that might

547
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 2: remind them of anything outside the cult is just so malicious.

548
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 4: And then your childhood literally goodbye.

549
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 2: Yeah. Can you tell us about Christa and the Little

550
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 2: House on the Prairie books also, and the fact that

551
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 2: I have to know more about her mom's sickness.

552
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 4: Can you just tell us that story?

553
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:59,200
Speaker 3: Well, Christa's mother had something called sarcoidosis, and in her case,

554
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 3: it was affecting her lungs and she was having trouble breathing,

555
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 3: which sounds miserable, and she talked to Victor about it.

556
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:12,520
Speaker 3: Because Victor started having he would advise his followers, especially

557
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 3: the women in the Lodge, which is where he lived.

558
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 3: I'm hoping I think he was living at the lodge

559
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 3: by that point. And he told her it's not physical,

560
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 3: this is spiritual. There's something wrong that you're doing that's

561
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 3: causing you to be sick, which I just think is

562
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 3: one of the worst things you can ever tell someone

563
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:32,240
Speaker 3: on so many levels. So she's looking for something that's wrong.

564
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 1: Now.

565
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 3: Christa, who we haven't talked about much yet, but she's

566
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 3: a big part of the podcast. She was a child,

567
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 3: and I love talking to Christa because she just she

568
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 3: kind of talks about how she saw things differently than

569
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:46,600
Speaker 3: the people around her, and she said, you know, come

570
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 3: to find out that as an adult she's neurodivergent, and that,

571
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 3: I think, she said, both ate it and like made

572
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 3: it difficult to live life in the cult. But she

573
00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 3: loved her books and that was how she escaped. She

574
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:01,120
Speaker 3: was a huge book where and she loved reading Little

575
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 3: House in the Prairie. Now it turns out that River

576
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 3: Road Fellowship had this belief that certain things, certain items,

577
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 3: had double spirits attached to them and were filled with darkness,

578
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 3: and Little House in the Prairie books was one of

579
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 3: those things. We're not entirely sure why I think Aylen.

580
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,480
Speaker 3: We asked Lindsey, why Little House in the Prairie like

581
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 3: a double spirit, and if I remember correctly, she was

582
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 3: kind of positing that maybe just because it had these

583
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 3: like strong women and like female main characters. And it

584
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 3: seemed like there were other books too that featured women

585
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 3: who you know, they were double spirit.

586
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 4: Books and family oriented, not like giving your you know,

587
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:42,080
Speaker 4: like it's a very strong family unit in those books.

588
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:45,120
Speaker 2: So true, but not all books were banned. It was

589
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 2: like the specific ones we have double characteristics.

590
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 1: That's my understanding.

591
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 3: I don't think all books were considered evil, which also,

592
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 3: I'll add, I feel like that's something about this group

593
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:59,280
Speaker 3: in general, that Victor would just kind of come up

594
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 3: with new rules as.

595
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:02,719
Speaker 1: He went about life.

596
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:02,960
Speaker 4: You know.

597
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's hard for me to even say we're fully

598
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 3: familiar with the belief system because it did evolve over time,

599
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 3: I mean, as.

600
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 1: It often does in these types of groups.

601
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 3: But yeah, I'm sure that that list of what had

602
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:19,000
Speaker 3: devil spirits attached changed over time.

603
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 2: Yes, right, Yeah, I mean she did talk about how

604
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 2: it was like one of the most important things in

605
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 2: her life, and yeah, and yeah, it was taken away

606
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:30,959
Speaker 2: from her by her mother. There are so many mothers

607
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 2: in this podcast that I'm really mad at. There's a

608
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 2: lot of really unfortunate mothering happening.

609
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 3: And one thing I should say, just to explain to

610
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 3: listeners the end of that story is that, you know,

611
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 3: because her mother was looking for something wrong, she took

612
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 3: those books from under Christa's bed and burned them in

613
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 3: their woodstove in front of Christa while Christa was just

614
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 3: crying and screaming and digging for her to stop. And

615
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:57,960
Speaker 3: Christa actually burned her hands trying to save her books.

616
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 3: And she said it was like this incredibly traumatic of

617
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 3: her childhood because reading books was how she escaped the

618
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 3: harshness of cult life, and so her escape was gone,

619
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 3: and you can't just read buy the books like they're

620
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 3: not going to bookstores and buying books like those are gone.

621
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 3: As far as she knows, she will never see those

622
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 3: books again in her life. And she felt that she

623
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 3: was the cause of her mother's illness because then after that,

624
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:24,960
Speaker 3: her mother's illness improved, as it can happen with the

625
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 3: condition saracoidosis, and so it felt like she had caused it.

626
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 3: And even I think Victor announced to the community like

627
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:38,160
Speaker 3: this is an example, and so Christa felt also a

628
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 3: lot of guilt and shame around that.

629
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:43,480
Speaker 2: Right, Oh my god, I cannot imagine.

630
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 4: And just a reminder to listeners who might be from

631
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 4: a different generation, there's no iPads or anything right to

632
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 4: be looked at at this time, like the books were

633
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 4: her only real source of entertainment.

634
00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:02,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, sad, yeah, yeah, credibly said, can we discuss Jan

635
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:05,760
Speaker 2: for a moment, because you know, we were saying before

636
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:09,920
Speaker 2: we started recording that we see so many men like Victor,

637
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 2: so many of these abusive men who are manipulating people

638
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 2: and controlling them for the purpose of abusing them. But

639
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:20,520
Speaker 2: the Jans of the world are always just so interesting

640
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 2: to me because she is this woman who's kind of

641
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:27,400
Speaker 2: his right hand person, right, Like, what was her deal?

642
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 3: So we should acknowledge that Jan actually isn't her real

643
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:35,759
Speaker 3: name for reasons that I won't get into. But she

644
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:38,840
Speaker 3: was a person who people described as being kind of

645
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 3: a second hand authority to Victor, although I mean there

646
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 3: were also other people really high up in the group.

647
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 3: It's kind of a complicated thing, but she worked very

648
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:51,280
Speaker 3: closely with him, and she was actually there that first

649
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,640
Speaker 3: night at the dinner party when Victor came to their

650
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 3: home in Pennsylvania and introduced them to the idea of

651
00:34:57,960 --> 00:34:58,680
Speaker 3: the group.

652
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:02,560
Speaker 1: And so she was often there and she was a

653
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:08,800
Speaker 1: mother herself. I know you mentioned motherhood earlier, but essentially

654
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:14,400
Speaker 1: what ended up happening is that Lindsay, along with nine

655
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:19,600
Speaker 1: other girls or young women, were selected to be what

656
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:20,799
Speaker 1: they called maidens.

657
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 4: What is a maiden?

658
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:29,960
Speaker 3: So essentially ten young people, all girls or women who

659
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 3: would move away from their family homes live right next

660
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 3: door to where Victor lived on the main camp property,

661
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 3: because the group actually had multiple different properties. So for example,

662
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:44,960
Speaker 3: Lindsay's family lived elsewhere pretty close but still technically on

663
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:48,720
Speaker 3: a different property, and so all of these girls would

664
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:52,800
Speaker 3: go and live right next to the lodge where Victor lived.

665
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:56,440
Speaker 3: And basically what they said was kind of devote their

666
00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:01,359
Speaker 3: lives to God and commit to help the church. What

667
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:05,560
Speaker 3: that actually looked like was cleaning Victor's house, cooking for him,

668
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:11,359
Speaker 3: taking care of things, providing company for him. And one

669
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 3: could argue that jan was heavily involved in kind of

670
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 3: organizing this group of girls, watching over them, and in fact,

671
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:23,720
Speaker 3: one of her own daughters was one of the ten maidens.

672
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:25,279
Speaker 2: Oh gosh.

673
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:29,680
Speaker 3: And so all these families are basically giving up their

674
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:33,440
Speaker 3: firstborn daughter to Victor and to the community.

675
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:36,800
Speaker 1: And one day, in the middle of.

676
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 3: Their worship time in the chapel, at the front of

677
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:46,879
Speaker 3: the chapel, Victor tells everyone, I have selected these ten

678
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:52,600
Speaker 3: girls to commit as maidens, and he named them one

679
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:56,400
Speaker 3: by one and Lindsay heard her name, and so it

680
00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 3: was decided that they would move to the camp. Lindsay

681
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:02,759
Speaker 3: thought for the summer. She thought it would be like

682
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:07,239
Speaker 3: summer camp, basically to help, I don't know, help around

683
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:11,400
Speaker 3: the camp and everything. But then when the summer was

684
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:13,960
Speaker 3: nearing the end and she thought she was going to

685
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 3: go home, she was doing something in the garden with Jan,

686
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 3: and Jan told her, no, Lindsey, this commitment was for life.

687
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:23,200
Speaker 3: You're not going home.

688
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 2: And she was thirteen thirteen. The feeling that I felt

689
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:32,960
Speaker 2: hearing that just like imagining being her.

690
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:34,120
Speaker 4: It's a nightmare.

691
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, the claustrophobia, the terror, like wait, what they signed

692
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:42,520
Speaker 2: me up at age thirteen for a permanent Yeah.

693
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:47,719
Speaker 4: How has this floated to the parents, Well, initially it

694
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:50,359
Speaker 4: was seen as this honor and I do think it's

695
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:53,160
Speaker 4: interesting that there are more than ten families in this camp,

696
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:55,520
Speaker 4: but he picked ten families who were sort of seen

697
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 4: as like the elders, the special people.

698
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:02,240
Speaker 3: So the special family's, their firstborn daughters were being chosen.

699
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:04,920
Speaker 3: So already that's signaling this is quite an honor. And

700
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:07,879
Speaker 3: then he said that this is a huge honor. And

701
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:10,319
Speaker 3: Lindsay even said, you know, as the years passed, because

702
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:12,920
Speaker 3: she was a maiden for a long time, it felt like, wow,

703
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:15,080
Speaker 3: out of the entire world, I was one of the

704
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 3: ten chosen. I am so lucky. She had very complicated feelings,

705
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:21,400
Speaker 3: which we can get into. But in addition, after they

706
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:23,839
Speaker 3: had lived there for a while, let's see, how do

707
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:25,879
Speaker 3: I what order would I tell Thissen. I guess one

708
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:28,239
Speaker 3: thing we should say is it became clear that it

709
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 3: wasn't just taking care of Victor. It was also he

710
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:35,400
Speaker 3: was going to sleep with these children or young women

711
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 3: and rape them regularly, and that was the role that

712
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:42,080
Speaker 3: they were going to serve. And after some time had passed,

713
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:45,479
Speaker 3: he had individual meetings. Well actually first he had every

714
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 3: single maiden write a letter saying that they wanted to

715
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:53,279
Speaker 3: remain maidens. Of course, there was a lot of manipulation

716
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:57,200
Speaker 3: going into that, but Lindsay, really feeling like she was

717
00:38:57,239 --> 00:38:59,520
Speaker 3: trapped at this point, did as she was told and

718
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:01,640
Speaker 3: wrote this line and said, I want to be a maiden.

719
00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:04,520
Speaker 3: Then he had one on one at a time meetings

720
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:07,120
Speaker 3: with the parents of each of these maidens, and an

721
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:09,440
Speaker 3: elder in the church was there as well, to again

722
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 3: give this sense of legitimacy, and he told them, we're

723
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:16,720
Speaker 3: going to keep them here and when they turn eighteen,

724
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:19,799
Speaker 3: I may sleep with them as part of that. Of course,

725
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:23,400
Speaker 3: at this point he'd already been raping them. But the

726
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 3: fact that parents would hear your teenage daughter, I'm going

727
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:29,400
Speaker 3: to sleep with her when she's eighteen, and then then

728
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:31,919
Speaker 3: they would say all of them said yes, take her

729
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 3: is so unfathomable to me, and there are many that's

730
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:38,920
Speaker 3: something we wrestle with in the show, like clearly they

731
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 3: were brainwashed, and then also at some point, don't you

732
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 3: protect your child regardless of brainwashing.

733
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:49,080
Speaker 4: It gets complicated because yeah, they can't all be terrible parents.

734
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:52,960
Speaker 4: It really speaks to the power of the trust that

735
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:56,439
Speaker 4: they trust and this is the right thing to do,

736
00:39:56,640 --> 00:40:00,239
Speaker 4: and it's just a mind warp that is really hard

737
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:03,239
Speaker 4: for people to understand. How old was Victor when this

738
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:05,960
Speaker 4: was taking place. I think he was in his forties

739
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 4: at this point, Alen, does that sound right?

740
00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:10,000
Speaker 3: I mean I think he was kind of in his

741
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:14,320
Speaker 3: mid thirties when he really started the group, but either

742
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 3: late thirties or early forties when when he introduced the

743
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:20,600
Speaker 3: idea of the spiritual marriage ceremony, which is what he

744
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 3: called it and they called it, which that even on

745
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 3: its own, is telling a spiritual marriage ceremony? Why is

746
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:32,799
Speaker 3: marriage involved in this for these underage girls right right?

747
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:35,319
Speaker 2: Just to kind of like paint the picture of like

748
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:38,279
Speaker 2: the level of indoctrination that was happening in the group

749
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:40,400
Speaker 2: at this point, because it is so unfathomable that a

750
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:43,240
Speaker 2: parent could could do that. Like what was the general

751
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:47,640
Speaker 2: belief about who he was, Like, was he in touch

752
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:51,240
Speaker 2: with God directly? Like? What was his authority in the group.

753
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:57,239
Speaker 3: Well, he basically called himself an apostle, so he saw

754
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:00,240
Speaker 3: himself as this representative of God.

755
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:01,600
Speaker 1: He called himself a shepherd.

756
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:04,520
Speaker 3: At some point along the way, he even started wearing

757
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 3: shepherd's clothes.

758
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:10,960
Speaker 1: And held a staff. Stop the pictures are wild.

759
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:17,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, he basically had this ability to discern what was good,

760
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:21,359
Speaker 3: what was bad, what had devil spirits attached what was

761
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:24,440
Speaker 3: in the light. He also used a phrase called living

762
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 3: in the light, where people are expected to live in

763
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:30,920
Speaker 3: a way that he should be able to know everything

764
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:34,640
Speaker 3: about them and if there's anything that they wouldn't want

765
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 3: him to know, that that's bad. That basically everything should

766
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:42,959
Speaker 3: be brought to the light and open, which I feel

767
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:45,680
Speaker 3: like theoretically, on a religious level, maybe that makes sense.

768
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:48,800
Speaker 3: You want to be good and not be harboring these

769
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:53,759
Speaker 3: like evil whatever, like bad behaviors or something. But ultimately

770
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:57,160
Speaker 3: that's about control and that that means he's allowed to

771
00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 3: ask you whatever he wants about you, and you should

772
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:02,759
Speaker 3: be honest. And if you're not honest, well then you

773
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:05,560
Speaker 3: might not get this special heaven that is promised to

774
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:09,000
Speaker 3: you if you are part of this inner circle of

775
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:09,440
Speaker 3: the group.

776
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:12,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, And what I gathered from it was that he

777
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:15,160
Speaker 4: was kind of inferring like I can also read your

778
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:17,720
Speaker 4: mind a bit, or like I also know what's in

779
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 4: your heart, and also like why would a man in

780
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:23,960
Speaker 4: his forties need to know everything about a little girl?

781
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 1: So true?

782
00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:29,759
Speaker 2: You know, yeah, I mean clearly controlling everyone was was

783
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:33,840
Speaker 2: his bag. Like, you know, my mother believed that my

784
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:36,480
Speaker 2: profit was a prophet, and he told her that we

785
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,200
Speaker 2: had to be separated, and she wouldn't do what he

786
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 2: told him. But we were separated, and it was because

787
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:45,279
Speaker 2: of just the threats that he was making to her

788
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:47,840
Speaker 2: ability to see us in the afterlife, Like he was

789
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:51,759
Speaker 2: threatening her to never see us again in heaven for

790
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:54,319
Speaker 2: all of eternity if she didn't comply. So there was

791
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:57,879
Speaker 2: this coercion that was happening. I'm curious if there were

792
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:01,400
Speaker 2: any like, you know, eternal threat to anyone's salvation if

793
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:03,200
Speaker 2: they didn't do what he wanted.

794
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:07,720
Speaker 3: It's amazing how similar it is, the exact same threat

795
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:11,160
Speaker 3: of you won't necessarily go to hell if you leave

796
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:13,799
Speaker 3: this group. Maybe you will, but you won't be in

797
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:16,000
Speaker 3: the special heaven that your on entire family will be,

798
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:18,759
Speaker 3: So your family will you'll never see your family again,

799
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:21,280
Speaker 3: not only in this life but in the next life.

800
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:25,239
Speaker 3: So it's amazing how these same themes come back over

801
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 3: and over again. And I'm so sorry that you went

802
00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:30,360
Speaker 3: through that, and I could imagine you relating to a

803
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 3: lot of Lindsay's story, but yeah, that was an absolute

804
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:36,680
Speaker 3: threat that hung over everyone. And then there's also like

805
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:38,959
Speaker 3: that's both the carrot and the stick because the carrot

806
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 3: is you get the special heaven. And he said, in

807
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:44,319
Speaker 3: this special heaven, you get your own planet, and your

808
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 3: own planet can be anything you want, and this is

809
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:49,759
Speaker 3: going to be your reward in afterlife. And they would

810
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:51,840
Speaker 3: talk about what their planets would be like all the time.

811
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:54,799
Speaker 3: So that's so enticing and exciting, and you also know

812
00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:56,240
Speaker 3: what you'll lose if you don't obey.

813
00:43:56,840 --> 00:44:00,319
Speaker 4: That reminds me of yours, Tula la, like the we

814
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 4: were special.

815
00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:04,320
Speaker 2: H well, we didn't talk about the planet, but Mormonism

816
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:06,719
Speaker 2: talks about the planet. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you get your own.

817
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:10,359
Speaker 4: Michael sucked so bad that it was you won't know

818
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:12,319
Speaker 4: who's in heaven at all. You're never going to see

819
00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 4: your family again because you're going to be so sad

820
00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:17,920
Speaker 4: that so many of them aren't there. Oh my good god,

821
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:26,160
Speaker 4: so crazy. He's so mean. It's so mean.

822
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 2: So yeah, but just you know, for people who cannot

823
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:31,440
Speaker 2: fathom how that would happen, it's like there is so

824
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:33,680
Speaker 2: much going on in your brain about the stakes of

825
00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:37,000
Speaker 2: if you do not comply, and there's so much that

826
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 2: needs to be done to you know, there's so much cognitive.

827
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:45,640
Speaker 4: Distance, and it's like eternity versus whatever years that are

828
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:46,720
Speaker 4: like not great.

829
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:49,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, and also just like the level of denial that

830
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:51,239
Speaker 2: people are capable of in terms of like, well, he

831
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:55,000
Speaker 2: wouldn't do it to my child, or if he wouldn't.

832
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 4: He's holy, he's not really going to sleep with them

833
00:44:57,520 --> 00:44:59,560
Speaker 4: on the turn eighteen. He might just be saying that,

834
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:01,040
Speaker 4: but like he's actually.

835
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:04,360
Speaker 2: You know, nobody wants to believe that that could have

836
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:06,879
Speaker 2: happened on their watch. Yes, nobody wants to believe that.

837
00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:09,000
Speaker 2: It's important point.

838
00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:11,600
Speaker 3: Which is why it's so important to talk about these

839
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:16,160
Speaker 3: stories and have podcasts like yours and what we're doing,

840
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:19,960
Speaker 3: so that it's like, that is a reality that happens

841
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:23,160
Speaker 3: to people, and it's not just this far off thing

842
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:25,120
Speaker 3: like it can happen to anybody.

843
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:29,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, what was the age range of all the maidens.

844
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:33,080
Speaker 3: I think it was about age twelve to twenty three,

845
00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:37,280
Speaker 3: So Lindsay was the second youngest. There was one younger

846
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:41,399
Speaker 3: than her, named Jess, whom she was really close with.

847
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:46,880
Speaker 1: Their besties. They're quite young through early twenties. That is

848
00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:51,880
Speaker 1: horrifically young. So they do this spiritual wedding ceremony. My

849
00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:54,799
Speaker 1: mom was also spiritually married to It's just crazy how

850
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:57,960
Speaker 1: much they do the same thing. And also this other

851
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:02,239
Speaker 1: Warren Jeff's cult leader replacement, same thing with him with

852
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:03,200
Speaker 1: children as well.

853
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:07,400
Speaker 2: What was this sah? So they marry he married ten

854
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 2: girls all at the same time, Like what was that

855
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:12,280
Speaker 2: in the group?

856
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:15,279
Speaker 3: I mean, the way I think it was framed is

857
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:18,400
Speaker 3: that this was a spiritual marriage ceremony sort of to

858
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:22,200
Speaker 3: the church, to God, but also kind of to Victor.

859
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:27,200
Speaker 3: And the idea was again that they would live together

860
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:30,480
Speaker 3: and totally devote their lives to serving the church, but

861
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:35,520
Speaker 3: also since Victor was the apostle, essentially serve Victor. And

862
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:38,440
Speaker 3: they had this ceremony in the middle of winter, on

863
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:41,560
Speaker 3: one of the coldest days, and it was in the evening,

864
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:44,359
Speaker 3: so it was dark, and they had these lanterns and

865
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:47,399
Speaker 3: it was all sort of like candlelight, and they wore

866
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:52,600
Speaker 3: little kind of crocheted lace veils, which Lindsay showed us,

867
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:57,040
Speaker 3: and they each got a gold ring with a symbol

868
00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:01,360
Speaker 3: on it, and they took salt with which is something

869
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:04,760
Speaker 3: that happens in some marriage ceremonies, and Lindsay's own parents

870
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:09,840
Speaker 3: had taken sult at their wedding, so it it felt

871
00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:15,399
Speaker 3: very similar on sort of a visibility level to each

872
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:18,560
Speaker 3: of them. Ten in a row lined up marrying Victor

873
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:21,880
Speaker 3: that day, and all the parents were there, many of

874
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:26,880
Speaker 3: the elders. So this community just accepted this is the

875
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:29,520
Speaker 3: way it is now. One thing that strikes me about

876
00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:31,400
Speaker 3: how that was primed as well. And when we were

877
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:33,719
Speaker 3: talking about what is Victor's role in the church and

878
00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:36,440
Speaker 3: what do they believe, he started leading up to this

879
00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:39,839
Speaker 3: talking a lot about the Song of Solomon and all

880
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:43,440
Speaker 3: of this sort of erotic love of always in the.

881
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 4: Bye David King, David, Yeah, Solomon, Yes, exactly exactly.

882
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:54,040
Speaker 3: So this, you know, this romantic poetry of like you know,

883
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:57,000
Speaker 3: and then these metaphors of the church and God, and

884
00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 3: you know, it really turned into this like feat pitch

885
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:02,400
Speaker 3: of love. And there is even this one year that

886
00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 3: they called it the Summer of Love, and all of

887
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:07,800
Speaker 3: the women were very much falling in love with Victor,

888
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 3: and actually Lindsay talks about how she felt like her

889
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:13,240
Speaker 3: mother was jealous of her, and there is this idea

890
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:15,680
Speaker 3: like you're supposed to almost kind of show romantic love

891
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 3: to Victor, who is like representing God. So he called

892
00:48:18,719 --> 00:48:21,319
Speaker 3: himself an apostle, but he became like God to them,

893
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:24,919
Speaker 3: and he started laying out these rules, one of which

894
00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:27,160
Speaker 3: was you weren't allowed to touch each other anymore, and

895
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:29,680
Speaker 3: it was very like keep your hands to yourself. The exception,

896
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:33,520
Speaker 3: of course, is Victor. You're supposed to hug Victor, touch him,

897
00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:37,239
Speaker 3: show physical affection to him. So there's this weird like

898
00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:42,920
Speaker 3: romantic vibe going already between everyone and him before this happens,

899
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:45,839
Speaker 3: even the men, I think, not so much the men.

900
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:50,279
Speaker 3: And that's why the women like started to I don't know,

901
00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:52,920
Speaker 3: they were centered in this way. I mean initially, like

902
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:55,759
Speaker 3: as I think Aileen you mentioned earlier, it's like the

903
00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:57,759
Speaker 3: men were centered and they went off on this these

904
00:48:57,800 --> 00:49:01,640
Speaker 3: spiritual retreats just the men, and there was this sexism

905
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:06,080
Speaker 3: inside the group where men have certain authority that women don't.

906
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:10,960
Speaker 3: But then women also have this like special relationship with Victor,

907
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:11,839
Speaker 3: and so.

908
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:14,360
Speaker 4: Right, I mean, he's like, let's go on a special

909
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:16,920
Speaker 4: camping trip where we talk about how men are more important.

910
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:19,920
Speaker 4: I'll stay back behind, yes and take care of the women.

911
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:24,600
Speaker 4: It's like a very clever exact card trick. And your

912
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:26,920
Speaker 4: first season, when you were talking about the nuns, you

913
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:29,680
Speaker 4: were talking about how they were so not supposed to

914
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:31,840
Speaker 4: touch each other or anything, like they weren't even supposed

915
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:34,120
Speaker 4: to hold babies for a very long amount of time.

916
00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:38,000
Speaker 4: Like how is this bleeding into family life and how

917
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:39,440
Speaker 4: they were taking care of their children.

918
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:41,160
Speaker 1: That's a good question.

919
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:45,479
Speaker 3: Well, one little detail that comes to mind is one

920
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:50,719
Speaker 3: of Lindsay's aunts early on in their time there, actually

921
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:54,439
Speaker 3: visited the camp, or visited the location at least where

922
00:49:54,520 --> 00:49:57,319
Speaker 3: Lindsay's family was staying as part of the group. And

923
00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:01,000
Speaker 3: first of all, she saw red flags when she heard that, oh,

924
00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:03,440
Speaker 3: Lindsay is no longer living with us, She's living on

925
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:07,880
Speaker 3: the main camp with some families there. And even the

926
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:11,160
Speaker 3: ant at the time thought, oh my gosh, I mean,

927
00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:14,239
Speaker 3: is Lindsay pregnant. That's a horrible thought. She's still so young,

928
00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:16,440
Speaker 3: but like, why can't I see Lindsay. So that was

929
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:18,839
Speaker 3: a red flag for her. But then I think one

930
00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:22,200
Speaker 3: other detail that is interesting is just that the ant

931
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:26,880
Speaker 3: wasn't allowed to be alone in the room with the kids,

932
00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:31,880
Speaker 3: even with the door open. And so I would imagine that,

933
00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:36,640
Speaker 3: especially with these rules about touch and everything, that there

934
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:39,400
Speaker 3: is this extra distance, like you always need to be

935
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:42,040
Speaker 3: sort of watching each other and you can't kind of

936
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:46,320
Speaker 3: have intimacy, because I do think like in childhood, learning

937
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:51,880
Speaker 3: intimacy and love and warmth in like a healthy way

938
00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:54,839
Speaker 3: is so important. But if you always feel like you're

939
00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:59,040
Speaker 3: being watched, and also maybe are you supposed to hug

940
00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:02,719
Speaker 3: your kid? And even Lindsay during the spiritual marriage ceremony,

941
00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:05,480
Speaker 3: felt like she couldn't even look her parents in the

942
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:08,600
Speaker 3: eye because another thing they had been taught was that

943
00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:14,440
Speaker 3: you should save your eyes, which interestingly also occurred in

944
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:17,480
Speaker 3: season one what they called Dove's eyes in the Missionaries

945
00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:21,080
Speaker 3: of Charity, where you shouldn't be looking outward at the world.

946
00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:24,160
Speaker 3: You should be looking down, keeping your eyes kind of

947
00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:28,480
Speaker 3: focused on, you know, your spirituality or whatever. But a

948
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:31,880
Speaker 3: similar thing happened here, And so even just things like

949
00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:35,760
Speaker 3: that physicality and where you're looking, and how that impacts

950
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:40,359
Speaker 3: your social relationships, especially growing up in that. I guess

951
00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:42,800
Speaker 3: that doesn't exactly answer your question, but I can certainly

952
00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:45,239
Speaker 3: imagine that affects family dynamics.

953
00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:50,759
Speaker 2: Yeah that's horrible. Yeah, yeah, I can't imagine growing up

954
00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:54,480
Speaker 2: like that. It makes me think about scientology too, totally,

955
00:51:54,719 --> 00:52:00,040
Speaker 2: Jenna Miscabbage and how children, yeah, just weren't allowed to

956
00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:03,479
Speaker 2: to experience joy or express joy or like.

957
00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:06,799
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I will say another priming thing that I

958
00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:08,800
Speaker 4: saw and the two by twos, and we might have

959
00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:10,200
Speaker 4: to take this out because I'm not even sure if

960
00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:12,600
Speaker 4: it applies. But like, there's this verse in the Bible

961
00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:16,239
Speaker 4: that was very drilled into our heads that was like

962
00:52:17,239 --> 00:52:21,880
Speaker 4: in the End of Time's father against brother, brother against mother,

963
00:52:22,840 --> 00:52:26,080
Speaker 4: like family against family. Like we were very taught that

964
00:52:26,239 --> 00:52:29,320
Speaker 4: when Jesus returned, the family would be divided and we

965
00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:31,840
Speaker 4: would have to fight against each other for good and evil.

966
00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:33,680
Speaker 2: Wow, so my god.

967
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:38,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, so this breaking up of the family unit is

968
00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:44,200
Speaker 4: such a like important tactic. And if you're not feeling

969
00:52:44,239 --> 00:52:47,680
Speaker 4: close to people, and if you're not, you know, you're

970
00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:49,760
Speaker 4: scared that they might tempt you out of your salvation,

971
00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:52,960
Speaker 4: et cetera. It just is this perfect storm for the

972
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:54,240
Speaker 4: cult leader to get more power.

973
00:52:54,680 --> 00:52:59,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. And the scientology reference was not completely random

974
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:01,960
Speaker 2: because they were also the children were kept separate from

975
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:04,480
Speaker 2: the adults. They were not supposed to have relationships with

976
00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:08,040
Speaker 2: each other, at least in the sea. Org. Yeah, it's

977
00:53:08,040 --> 00:53:11,160
Speaker 2: perfect recipe. You can't have people be close to each

978
00:53:11,200 --> 00:53:13,239
Speaker 2: other because then they might talk, and then they might

979
00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:15,680
Speaker 2: think differently, and then they might question, and then the

980
00:53:15,719 --> 00:53:16,640
Speaker 2: power might be at risk.

981
00:53:16,719 --> 00:53:19,680
Speaker 4: And if you're like child is crying and you emotionally

982
00:53:19,719 --> 00:53:22,879
Speaker 4: bond with them, suddenly that's more important. Yeah, Victor isn't

983
00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:23,719
Speaker 4: at top of money.

984
00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:25,400
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.

985
00:53:25,719 --> 00:53:27,920
Speaker 3: Well it makes me think of this one story Lindsay

986
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:30,680
Speaker 3: told us about one time she had a cavity or

987
00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:32,840
Speaker 3: something and she had to go to the dentist, and

988
00:53:32,920 --> 00:53:34,640
Speaker 3: eventually she wouldn't even be allowed to go to the

989
00:53:34,760 --> 00:53:37,320
Speaker 3: dentist and they would just kind of like get dental

990
00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:40,320
Speaker 3: tools and like treat each other and clean each other's teeth.

991
00:53:40,600 --> 00:53:41,040
Speaker 2: Oh my god.

992
00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:43,239
Speaker 3: She had to go to the dentist and her mother

993
00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:46,040
Speaker 3: took her and now she I think she was fourteen

994
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:47,920
Speaker 3: at this time, and she had this gold ring on

995
00:53:48,040 --> 00:53:51,759
Speaker 3: that married her to Victor, and the person at the

996
00:53:51,840 --> 00:53:54,160
Speaker 3: dentist asked, oh, what's that like, trying to be friendly

997
00:53:54,200 --> 00:53:56,080
Speaker 3: with the ring, and Lindsay didn't know what to say,

998
00:53:56,800 --> 00:53:59,160
Speaker 3: and her mother just kind of jumped in and was like, oh,

999
00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:01,279
Speaker 3: it means her commitment to the church. But as soon

1000
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:03,960
Speaker 3: as they got back to the camp, her mother went

1001
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:07,360
Speaker 3: straight to Victor and like told on Lindsay. So Lindsay

1002
00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:10,239
Speaker 3: got in huge trouble and he's yelling at her and

1003
00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:12,440
Speaker 3: she has to learn right like if she ever does

1004
00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:14,279
Speaker 3: go to the outside world again, like you have to

1005
00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:17,720
Speaker 3: have a story ready for what your role is or why.

1006
00:54:17,840 --> 00:54:19,799
Speaker 3: Or they used to talk about like if someone comes

1007
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:21,760
Speaker 3: into the camp, why aren't you living with your parents?

1008
00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:22,640
Speaker 2: You have to have a story.

1009
00:54:22,960 --> 00:54:26,439
Speaker 3: But it just struck Aylen and me how her mother

1010
00:54:26,520 --> 00:54:29,160
Speaker 3: is turning on her already, like her priority is Victor

1011
00:54:29,239 --> 00:54:32,279
Speaker 3: and she's tattling essentially that's a mild way of putting

1012
00:54:32,320 --> 00:54:33,240
Speaker 3: it on her own daughter.

1013
00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:34,360
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1014
00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:39,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, at every stage, her mother chooses Victor, yes over Lindsay,

1015
00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:42,000
Speaker 2: I mean, and it's just so heartbreaking to hear.

1016
00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:43,280
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1017
00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:46,880
Speaker 2: So Lindsay and Jess were kind of talking about escaping,

1018
00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:53,040
Speaker 2: and Lindsay had a plan that is kind of shocking.

1019
00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:56,520
Speaker 2: Can can one of you describe that plan? Yeah?

1020
00:54:56,560 --> 00:54:59,920
Speaker 3: Well, she and Jess, the other youngest of the Maiden,

1021
00:55:01,040 --> 00:55:04,360
Speaker 3: often just fantasized about, oh, what could we do to

1022
00:55:04,480 --> 00:55:05,640
Speaker 3: escape to get out of here?

1023
00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:07,440
Speaker 1: And they talk.

1024
00:55:07,360 --> 00:55:12,200
Speaker 3: About just somehow stealing a car or something and going

1025
00:55:12,239 --> 00:55:16,279
Speaker 3: to the local just little shop in town and getting help.

1026
00:55:16,280 --> 00:55:17,960
Speaker 3: But then they were like that could never happen. But

1027
00:55:18,680 --> 00:55:25,160
Speaker 3: as also the sexual abuse continued. Eventually, Lindsay thought to herself, well,

1028
00:55:26,120 --> 00:55:30,480
Speaker 3: and this is getting a little graphic here, but Victor

1029
00:55:30,520 --> 00:55:34,239
Speaker 3: would have them use some kind of spermicide when he

1030
00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:40,520
Speaker 3: would abuse them, and so she tried to use it

1031
00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:44,719
Speaker 3: incorrectly so that in theory, maybe she would become pregnant

1032
00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:47,120
Speaker 3: and go to the hospital and she could tell someone

1033
00:55:47,160 --> 00:55:50,280
Speaker 3: what was happening, and that might be a way out.

1034
00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:53,240
Speaker 3: But of course Victor noticed that she didn't do it correctly,

1035
00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:57,280
Speaker 3: and then also eventually he got a vasectomy. So Lindsay

1036
00:55:57,360 --> 00:56:02,960
Speaker 3: never became pregnant from Victor, but she clearly was desperate

1037
00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:06,920
Speaker 3: to escape. And I think what's interesting too is, and

1038
00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:09,480
Speaker 3: I guess we don't actually talk about this in the podcast,

1039
00:56:09,520 --> 00:56:13,120
Speaker 3: but I get the sense that in some ways it

1040
00:56:13,239 --> 00:56:16,920
Speaker 3: wasn't even like fully thought out in her brain as

1041
00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:20,040
Speaker 3: like I am trying to find ways to escape, like

1042
00:56:21,000 --> 00:56:23,319
Speaker 3: doing this spermicide thing. It was just like, oh, like

1043
00:56:23,520 --> 00:56:25,640
Speaker 3: maybe I could get in touch with someone and that

1044
00:56:25,640 --> 00:56:29,919
Speaker 3: would lead something to change. And on some level, deep down, yes,

1045
00:56:29,960 --> 00:56:31,919
Speaker 3: of course it was to escape. But I almost think

1046
00:56:31,920 --> 00:56:35,759
Speaker 3: it's like this is just my impression, but that it

1047
00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:39,000
Speaker 3: was like her mind couldn't even fully go there, if

1048
00:56:39,040 --> 00:56:42,680
Speaker 3: that makes sense. Like fully leaving the church probably wasn't

1049
00:56:42,719 --> 00:56:46,719
Speaker 3: necessarily the goal because that would mean so many bad

1050
00:56:46,760 --> 00:56:49,600
Speaker 3: things for her soul, et cetera, et cetera, But like

1051
00:56:49,719 --> 00:56:51,240
Speaker 3: she needed to get out too.

1052
00:56:51,440 --> 00:56:55,640
Speaker 4: Right, maybe of the maidens at least when did she

1053
00:56:56,040 --> 00:56:59,160
Speaker 4: have her quick trip to Brazil? It feels like that

1054
00:56:59,280 --> 00:57:03,000
Speaker 4: might have been pretty what is the word I'm looking for,

1055
00:57:03,160 --> 00:57:04,200
Speaker 4: pivotal momentous?

1056
00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:08,440
Speaker 3: Yes, that was in two thousand and nine, okay, And

1057
00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:10,560
Speaker 3: so she had been a maiden for quite a few

1058
00:57:10,600 --> 00:57:14,160
Speaker 3: years at this point. And one thing that's interesting is

1059
00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:17,040
Speaker 3: she'd been a maiden for quite some time, and I

1060
00:57:17,160 --> 00:57:20,439
Speaker 3: really appreciated how open Lindsay with us was with us

1061
00:57:20,560 --> 00:57:24,120
Speaker 3: about how her perception of the abuse changed. So initially

1062
00:57:24,120 --> 00:57:27,200
Speaker 3: she's I will get pregnant to escape if I have to,

1063
00:57:27,880 --> 00:57:31,560
Speaker 3: but she's told over and over again, this sexual abuse

1064
00:57:31,680 --> 00:57:35,040
Speaker 3: is God's love, and she's kind of convinced to fall

1065
00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:38,080
Speaker 3: in love with Victor, as everyone else in the cult has.

1066
00:57:38,160 --> 00:57:40,200
Speaker 3: And I think that was something that we really wanted

1067
00:57:40,240 --> 00:57:43,800
Speaker 3: to get across about child sexual abuse because I think

1068
00:57:43,840 --> 00:57:46,120
Speaker 3: a lot of survivors feel so much shame about that,

1069
00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:48,560
Speaker 3: and they think, oh, like I was in love with him,

1070
00:57:48,800 --> 00:57:51,760
Speaker 3: or I sometimes tried to get him to have sex

1071
00:57:51,800 --> 00:57:54,560
Speaker 3: with me, because now that is associated with like the

1072
00:57:54,600 --> 00:57:57,280
Speaker 3: good things, and withholding sex becomes a punishment.

1073
00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:00,920
Speaker 1: Really, withholding rape becomes a punishment.

1074
00:58:01,080 --> 00:58:03,800
Speaker 3: So it's very complicated, and so by the time she

1075
00:58:03,840 --> 00:58:08,720
Speaker 3: went to Brazil, she was much more like in the cult,

1076
00:58:08,840 --> 00:58:13,280
Speaker 3: like much more like brainwashed and deep in it. But

1077
00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:15,360
Speaker 3: the reason she went to Brazil is because one of

1078
00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:17,600
Speaker 3: the maidens was originally from Brazil and was having some

1079
00:58:17,640 --> 00:58:20,080
Speaker 3: immigration issues and so had to move back to Brazil

1080
00:58:20,120 --> 00:58:22,720
Speaker 3: for a while while they sorted it. And one of

1081
00:58:22,720 --> 00:58:25,560
Speaker 3: the rules they had was maidens could never really be alone.

1082
00:58:25,600 --> 00:58:27,840
Speaker 3: They're always in pairs, which is something we heard in

1083
00:58:27,880 --> 00:58:29,720
Speaker 3: other seasons of our podcast and I think is in

1084
00:58:29,760 --> 00:58:33,160
Speaker 3: many cults, which is so fascinating. So the maidens would

1085
00:58:33,200 --> 00:58:35,680
Speaker 3: take turns for a while going to Brazil and living

1086
00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:40,000
Speaker 3: with this other maiden in Brazil, and it was here

1087
00:58:40,120 --> 00:58:42,560
Speaker 3: she is flying on a plane for the first like

1088
00:58:42,840 --> 00:58:45,640
Speaker 3: leaving the compound first of all, which is wild, and

1089
00:58:45,640 --> 00:58:48,920
Speaker 3: then flying on a plane and seeing regular life again.

1090
00:58:49,080 --> 00:58:52,360
Speaker 3: I think that was where some things started to be

1091
00:58:52,440 --> 00:58:56,640
Speaker 3: sparked of there is life outside of this compound in Minnesota.

1092
00:58:57,280 --> 00:59:01,040
Speaker 4: Right, that's just such an exciting feeling to imagine being

1093
00:59:01,120 --> 00:59:04,360
Speaker 4: like reintroduced to the world and going to the airport.

1094
00:59:04,480 --> 00:59:07,080
Speaker 4: I remember her saying, like there were TVs on the

1095
00:59:07,080 --> 00:59:11,880
Speaker 4: back of the seats yet yes, it's yeah what a

1096
00:59:13,280 --> 00:59:15,160
Speaker 4: I can only imagine what was happening in her mind

1097
00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:17,160
Speaker 4: at that time. That must have been so surreal.

1098
00:59:17,640 --> 00:59:20,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it just echoes of so many stories we've

1099
00:59:20,920 --> 00:59:25,880
Speaker 2: heard of people experiencing anything outside of the group or

1100
00:59:25,920 --> 00:59:29,360
Speaker 2: getting a little bit of time alone, and that being

1101
00:59:29,520 --> 00:59:32,560
Speaker 2: just you know, starting to crack a little bit of

1102
00:59:32,600 --> 00:59:35,920
Speaker 2: the indoctrination, like, Oh, I don't have to live like that. Oh,

1103
00:59:35,960 --> 00:59:39,800
Speaker 2: these people aren't all evil. Hmm, that's interesting. That's different

1104
00:59:39,800 --> 00:59:41,680
Speaker 2: from what I.

1105
00:59:41,000 --> 00:59:41,480
Speaker 4: And I mean.

1106
00:59:41,880 --> 00:59:42,800
Speaker 2: And still you're scared.

1107
00:59:42,840 --> 00:59:44,720
Speaker 4: Like she speaks about wanting to watch a movie on

1108
00:59:44,760 --> 00:59:46,240
Speaker 4: the plane in the and she was like, I can't,

1109
00:59:46,320 --> 00:59:49,960
Speaker 4: I can't. Victor, well, no, like kind of he's watching

1110
00:59:50,000 --> 00:59:51,840
Speaker 4: her even when he's not watching her, you know, like

1111
00:59:51,880 --> 00:59:56,440
Speaker 4: he has special powers or something. But the littlest cracks

1112
00:59:56,520 --> 00:59:58,880
Speaker 4: can sometimes really take a hold.

1113
00:59:59,000 --> 01:00:04,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, And the best way there was a fake rapture moment, right,

1114
01:00:05,600 --> 01:00:06,320
Speaker 2: love a good.

1115
01:00:06,200 --> 01:00:12,840
Speaker 3: Fake rapture moment for any group experience like this. Yeah,

1116
01:00:13,600 --> 01:00:20,880
Speaker 3: obviously that was sarcasm. But Victor told them all that,

1117
01:00:21,400 --> 01:00:24,560
Speaker 3: you know, one day Christ will come back, and he

1118
01:00:24,640 --> 01:00:28,720
Speaker 3: will come back at their camp right by the pond

1119
01:00:28,800 --> 01:00:32,600
Speaker 3: where they lit a lantern every night to show Jesus

1120
01:00:32,600 --> 01:00:36,960
Speaker 3: where to come to find them. And it even brought

1121
01:00:37,040 --> 01:00:40,840
Speaker 3: forth this policy of eventually the members were expected to

1122
01:00:40,920 --> 01:00:45,440
Speaker 3: never leave a thirty minute radius of being near to

1123
01:00:45,480 --> 01:00:49,400
Speaker 3: the camp, so they couldn't go beyond thirty minutes outside

1124
01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:54,160
Speaker 3: of the camp without special dispensation or for particular reasons,

1125
01:00:54,480 --> 01:00:57,400
Speaker 3: which when you're in rural Minnesota, you can't go many

1126
01:00:57,400 --> 01:00:58,800
Speaker 3: places in thirty minutes.

1127
01:00:59,240 --> 01:01:01,840
Speaker 2: So that's how wow.

1128
01:01:02,000 --> 01:01:06,080
Speaker 3: And part of the reason for that policy was that

1129
01:01:06,440 --> 01:01:09,640
Speaker 3: you needed to be close enough so that if Christ returned,

1130
01:01:10,080 --> 01:01:12,360
Speaker 3: you'd be able to get to the camp in time.

1131
01:01:12,840 --> 01:01:18,400
Speaker 3: And so much of Victor's talk and preaching focused on

1132
01:01:18,440 --> 01:01:20,760
Speaker 3: the sense of urgency. If you need to be ready,

1133
01:01:20,760 --> 01:01:22,800
Speaker 3: you need to be ready. He could come at any time,

1134
01:01:22,880 --> 01:01:25,960
Speaker 3: and you need to you know, be staying in the

1135
01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:28,600
Speaker 3: sufferings and following all these rules so that you are

1136
01:01:28,680 --> 01:01:31,400
Speaker 3: ready when he comes. And you don't know when he'll come,

1137
01:01:32,080 --> 01:01:36,080
Speaker 3: and it would be an announcement of the eagles are gathering.

1138
01:01:36,160 --> 01:01:39,840
Speaker 3: It was a code that indicated that Jesus Christ had

1139
01:01:39,880 --> 01:01:43,160
Speaker 3: returned and was at the camp. And so one day

1140
01:01:43,840 --> 01:01:47,480
Speaker 3: the alarm bells start going and everyone at all their

1141
01:01:47,480 --> 01:01:51,520
Speaker 3: properties which are nearby start yelling out the eagles are gathering.

1142
01:01:51,560 --> 01:01:55,320
Speaker 3: The eagles are gathering, and everyone is freaking out. Lindsay's like,

1143
01:01:55,400 --> 01:01:59,240
Speaker 3: oh my god, the oh my goodness. The endles are

1144
01:01:59,280 --> 01:02:04,880
Speaker 3: gathering and people leave their showers with shampoo, and they

1145
01:02:05,000 --> 01:02:10,040
Speaker 3: leave their ovens on, they're ironing thing on. You know,

1146
01:02:10,040 --> 01:02:13,040
Speaker 3: they're doing things that are you know, normally kind of irresponsible.

1147
01:02:13,080 --> 01:02:16,160
Speaker 3: They go to the camp, their victor is to meet them,

1148
01:02:16,880 --> 01:02:21,920
Speaker 3: and it turns out it was just a test. Jesus

1149
01:02:22,200 --> 01:02:25,760
Speaker 3: hadn't returned. He was just making sure that they were

1150
01:02:25,840 --> 01:02:28,040
Speaker 3: ready for when it actually happened.

1151
01:02:28,760 --> 01:02:33,520
Speaker 4: So yeah, wow, it's such a movie. I were standing

1152
01:02:33,520 --> 01:02:39,520
Speaker 4: there with shampoo in my hair. I think, break, yeah,

1153
01:02:40,000 --> 01:02:41,960
Speaker 4: now you're you know, bad hair day.

1154
01:02:41,960 --> 01:02:46,640
Speaker 5: You know, yeah like that, And I just there's this

1155
01:02:46,760 --> 01:02:53,200
Speaker 5: personality type just pushes shit so far like and and

1156
01:02:53,240 --> 01:02:55,040
Speaker 5: there's something about it that I think they do on

1157
01:02:55,120 --> 01:02:59,280
Speaker 5: purpose so that people who aren't as invested are like fuck.

1158
01:02:59,080 --> 01:03:01,680
Speaker 4: This, I'm leaving a little bit, you know what I mean,

1159
01:03:01,720 --> 01:03:04,120
Speaker 4: so that they can keep a control on a tighter group,

1160
01:03:04,520 --> 01:03:09,160
Speaker 4: because that's so, and like to state dates that then

1161
01:03:09,240 --> 01:03:12,600
Speaker 4: don't come true. It just seems so. But they all

1162
01:03:12,640 --> 01:03:15,200
Speaker 4: do it. But they all do it, and it works.

1163
01:03:15,480 --> 01:03:18,640
Speaker 2: It does work. It's weird, yeah, and it makes people

1164
01:03:18,720 --> 01:03:20,000
Speaker 2: double down. It makes people down.

1165
01:03:20,120 --> 01:03:22,280
Speaker 4: This like a trauma bond. I don't know what it is.

1166
01:03:22,720 --> 01:03:23,040
Speaker 4: I don't know.

1167
01:03:23,080 --> 01:03:26,480
Speaker 3: It does like you enact this thing and that cognitive

1168
01:03:26,480 --> 01:03:30,400
Speaker 3: dissonance thing like I did this. So I have to

1169
01:03:30,440 --> 01:03:32,120
Speaker 3: believe that it is true and it was for a

1170
01:03:32,160 --> 01:03:35,320
Speaker 3: good reason. Otherwise why did it do this crazy behavior?

1171
01:03:36,160 --> 01:03:38,640
Speaker 3: Also one piece to the story that was fascinating to me,

1172
01:03:38,680 --> 01:03:41,640
Speaker 3: I specifically was asking lindsay, like how did people react?

1173
01:03:41,720 --> 01:03:44,320
Speaker 1: Were they pissed? Like I would be so let down.

1174
01:03:44,800 --> 01:03:46,640
Speaker 3: I would think, Oh, I'm about to go to heaven

1175
01:03:46,760 --> 01:03:48,680
Speaker 3: and now I have to go back to shower the

1176
01:03:48,720 --> 01:03:51,760
Speaker 3: shampoo out. You know, I'd get a little annoyed or

1177
01:03:51,760 --> 01:03:55,560
Speaker 3: maybe even angry. But she said the general mood was

1178
01:03:55,720 --> 01:03:59,919
Speaker 3: laughter and like kind of a oh, Victor, you pulled

1179
01:04:00,120 --> 01:04:02,480
Speaker 3: that one on us, and kind of like a bonding

1180
01:04:02,600 --> 01:04:07,000
Speaker 3: moment of happiness as opposed to anger, which I don't know.

1181
01:04:07,040 --> 01:04:09,240
Speaker 3: I just I thought that was so fascinating.

1182
01:04:09,600 --> 01:04:11,400
Speaker 2: That was interesting to me too. I was like, they

1183
01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:12,560
Speaker 2: wouldn't beat, they weren't pissed.

1184
01:04:13,280 --> 01:04:16,400
Speaker 4: It reminds me of a Guenevere Turner's book where in

1185
01:04:16,440 --> 01:04:20,040
Speaker 4: the very beginning they're getting ready because they've announced that

1186
01:04:20,240 --> 01:04:22,920
Speaker 4: Jesus is coming back, and everybody has their best outfits

1187
01:04:22,960 --> 01:04:26,880
Speaker 4: on their best handbags, and it doesn't happen, and the

1188
01:04:26,920 --> 01:04:33,240
Speaker 4: mood is slightly similar. It's like a it's so strange.

1189
01:04:33,360 --> 01:04:35,320
Speaker 2: Well, before we were talking to you guys, we were

1190
01:04:35,320 --> 01:04:39,080
Speaker 2: also having this conversation about a former guest, Victrm Gandhi,

1191
01:04:39,280 --> 01:04:44,120
Speaker 2: who made a movie called Kumara, documenting him basically pretending

1192
01:04:44,160 --> 01:04:46,640
Speaker 2: to be a guru. And at the end of the

1193
01:04:46,680 --> 01:04:50,760
Speaker 2: film he reveals to these followers he has gotten that

1194
01:04:50,880 --> 01:04:55,200
Speaker 2: he's not actually Kumara, he's just a regular guy. And

1195
01:04:55,480 --> 01:04:57,280
Speaker 2: some of them are really angry at him, and some

1196
01:04:57,320 --> 01:05:00,960
Speaker 2: of them are like, that was the lesson you are

1197
01:05:01,080 --> 01:05:04,080
Speaker 2: our leader, that was the real lesson, you know, And

1198
01:05:04,120 --> 01:05:06,280
Speaker 2: it just goes to show that like, once you believe

1199
01:05:06,320 --> 01:05:10,360
Speaker 2: in a person, nothing, it doesn't matter what they say,

1200
01:05:10,400 --> 01:05:12,440
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter how much they change the belief for

1201
01:05:12,560 --> 01:05:15,080
Speaker 2: the ideology. It doesn't matter if the thing doesn't come true,

1202
01:05:15,080 --> 01:05:17,200
Speaker 2: because they'll just come up with something else. Once you

1203
01:05:17,280 --> 01:05:19,200
Speaker 2: trust the person anything.

1204
01:05:19,560 --> 01:05:22,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, because that's a great point because no other leaders

1205
01:05:22,000 --> 01:05:24,120
Speaker 4: to my knowledge, have been like just kidding, I was

1206
01:05:24,160 --> 01:05:27,080
Speaker 4: full of complete shit. He did it, and it's still

1207
01:05:27,320 --> 01:05:28,640
Speaker 4: people are still like, we believe you.

1208
01:05:29,040 --> 01:05:31,920
Speaker 2: But yeah, leader, it's like, once you've established this connection

1209
01:05:31,960 --> 01:05:33,880
Speaker 2: in your mind that no, this person is the source

1210
01:05:33,880 --> 01:05:36,520
Speaker 2: of truth for me. They can say anything and they

1211
01:05:36,520 --> 01:05:39,440
Speaker 2: can tell you to do anything. It's so scary, it's terrifying.

1212
01:05:39,680 --> 01:05:42,080
Speaker 1: Yeah. I saw that movie years ago and that was

1213
01:05:42,160 --> 01:05:42,840
Speaker 1: mind blowing.

1214
01:05:43,240 --> 01:05:44,280
Speaker 4: That's right.

1215
01:05:45,600 --> 01:05:48,760
Speaker 2: So how did Lindsey get to the point of actually

1216
01:05:48,920 --> 01:05:51,960
Speaker 2: getting out of the Maidens and then the group.

1217
01:05:52,400 --> 01:05:56,720
Speaker 3: Well, I think it was a gradual process, but also

1218
01:05:57,360 --> 01:06:00,440
Speaker 3: happened all at once, as these things do. She had

1219
01:06:00,480 --> 01:06:03,480
Speaker 3: been exposed to the outside world a little bit more

1220
01:06:03,520 --> 01:06:07,520
Speaker 3: in Brazil, as we discussed then. Actually, because of some

1221
01:06:07,640 --> 01:06:13,400
Speaker 3: interesting laws in Minnesota around people of the church or

1222
01:06:13,440 --> 01:06:18,479
Speaker 3: clergy having relationships with people they lead, and the fact

1223
01:06:18,520 --> 01:06:23,280
Speaker 3: that that can be charged criminally, they actually moved their

1224
01:06:23,360 --> 01:06:29,120
Speaker 3: base to Washington State, and part of that which maybe

1225
01:06:29,120 --> 01:06:30,640
Speaker 3: we don't need to get into because we don't need

1226
01:06:30,680 --> 01:06:32,480
Speaker 3: to get into every detail of the story. Was that

1227
01:06:32,520 --> 01:06:34,600
Speaker 3: one of the adult women in the group had gone

1228
01:06:34,720 --> 01:06:38,960
Speaker 3: to police and reported that he had been coercing her

1229
01:06:39,120 --> 01:06:42,680
Speaker 3: and women into sex. So we don't actually get as

1230
01:06:42,760 --> 01:06:46,440
Speaker 3: much into that in the podcast because we were really

1231
01:06:46,480 --> 01:06:51,640
Speaker 3: focusing more on the child experience and we can't get

1232
01:06:51,680 --> 01:06:55,320
Speaker 3: to every single perspective. I wish we could spend another

1233
01:06:55,560 --> 01:07:01,080
Speaker 3: five years on this story. But presumably based on everything else,

1234
01:07:01,160 --> 01:07:04,400
Speaker 3: I would assume he was likely also abusing a lot

1235
01:07:04,440 --> 01:07:05,360
Speaker 3: of adult women.

1236
01:07:05,960 --> 01:07:08,440
Speaker 1: Anyway, Lindsay hears about this.

1237
01:07:08,520 --> 01:07:12,600
Speaker 3: He victor tells the maidens that he's been having sex

1238
01:07:12,880 --> 01:07:15,240
Speaker 3: with adult, married women in the group.

1239
01:07:15,360 --> 01:07:16,240
Speaker 1: Because it's out now.

1240
01:07:16,280 --> 01:07:17,520
Speaker 2: He kind of has no choice.

1241
01:07:17,560 --> 01:07:20,040
Speaker 3: It's out in the in the public, and he's even

1242
01:07:20,120 --> 01:07:22,440
Speaker 3: kind of on the run a little bit. He doesn't

1243
01:07:22,440 --> 01:07:25,440
Speaker 3: really let anyone know where he is. He kind of

1244
01:07:25,800 --> 01:07:30,200
Speaker 3: bops in and out, blips in and out. Lindsay somehow

1245
01:07:30,240 --> 01:07:33,200
Speaker 3: clings on too that as a reason that it just

1246
01:07:33,360 --> 01:07:37,120
Speaker 3: feels wrong to her. Now, what's interesting is the deeper

1247
01:07:37,200 --> 01:07:40,480
Speaker 3: we talked with her about why she left, she kind

1248
01:07:40,480 --> 01:07:43,080
Speaker 3: of used that ask for reason to state why she

1249
01:07:43,200 --> 01:07:45,800
Speaker 3: was going to leave, and I do think that might

1250
01:07:45,840 --> 01:07:48,000
Speaker 3: have been part of it, but I do think underneath

1251
01:07:48,000 --> 01:07:50,640
Speaker 3: it all, it was just more exposure to the outside

1252
01:07:50,640 --> 01:07:53,800
Speaker 3: world because also in Brazil and that in Washington, she

1253
01:07:53,960 --> 01:07:56,880
Speaker 3: had more exposure to the outside world. The Maidens developed

1254
01:07:56,920 --> 01:08:00,160
Speaker 3: this like house cleaning service. She was in people's home

1255
01:08:00,320 --> 01:08:04,000
Speaker 3: seeing TVs, exposed to more media, and one day she

1256
01:08:04,120 --> 01:08:07,000
Speaker 3: was watching TV March of the Penguins with another maiden

1257
01:08:07,440 --> 01:08:09,640
Speaker 3: and she just looked over to the other maiden and

1258
01:08:09,680 --> 01:08:12,600
Speaker 3: without planning much, said, I don't feel good about what

1259
01:08:12,680 --> 01:08:16,800
Speaker 3: Victor's doing with sleeping with the married women, and that

1260
01:08:17,000 --> 01:08:19,960
Speaker 3: ultimately led her to talk to jan that second in

1261
01:08:20,000 --> 01:08:26,240
Speaker 3: command woman, and ultimately she basically said I want to leave.

1262
01:08:27,800 --> 01:08:31,759
Speaker 3: And she says to this day that because Victor wasn't

1263
01:08:31,800 --> 01:08:34,240
Speaker 3: with her physically and they just had a phone conversation

1264
01:08:34,320 --> 01:08:36,160
Speaker 3: about it, she thinks that if Victor had been there

1265
01:08:36,200 --> 01:08:39,439
Speaker 3: in person, he would have convinced her to stay, just

1266
01:08:39,479 --> 01:08:43,880
Speaker 3: as he'd done many times before. But somehow she had

1267
01:08:44,160 --> 01:08:47,960
Speaker 3: something in her that just said this is enough, and

1268
01:08:48,000 --> 01:08:50,720
Speaker 3: she said I want to leave, and so she was

1269
01:08:50,760 --> 01:08:54,120
Speaker 3: allowed to leave in sort of this condoned way. She

1270
01:08:54,240 --> 01:08:56,679
Speaker 3: moved back in actually with her parents that had since

1271
01:08:56,920 --> 01:09:00,559
Speaker 3: they'd moved back to Pennsylvania when the Minnesota kind of

1272
01:09:00,600 --> 01:09:04,000
Speaker 3: commune broke up. Anyway, it's kind of complicated, but the

1273
01:09:04,040 --> 01:09:06,880
Speaker 3: point is it was kind of like her saying, I

1274
01:09:06,920 --> 01:09:11,000
Speaker 3: am leaving, moving out, and then getting more and more

1275
01:09:11,000 --> 01:09:13,960
Speaker 3: exposed to the outside world and eventually moving away from

1276
01:09:13,960 --> 01:09:17,120
Speaker 3: her parents as well, who are still following Victor. Because

1277
01:09:17,120 --> 01:09:19,400
Speaker 3: when she initially left, she was leaving the Maidens. She

1278
01:09:19,479 --> 01:09:22,120
Speaker 3: was staying in the church but living with her parents.

1279
01:09:22,720 --> 01:09:27,040
Speaker 3: But you know, then she started really experiencing the outside

1280
01:09:27,040 --> 01:09:29,000
Speaker 3: world and left entirely.

1281
01:09:29,600 --> 01:09:31,559
Speaker 4: People are going to have to listen to the series.

1282
01:09:31,640 --> 01:09:34,160
Speaker 4: I mean it goes everywhere to the Doctor Phil show

1283
01:09:34,200 --> 01:09:38,320
Speaker 4: to you know, it takes twists and turns, and there's

1284
01:09:38,360 --> 01:09:45,320
Speaker 4: a manhunt for Victor most Wanted manhunt. Yeah, it's a

1285
01:09:45,600 --> 01:09:47,639
Speaker 4: very compelling story.

1286
01:09:48,240 --> 01:09:48,639
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1287
01:09:48,680 --> 01:09:53,479
Speaker 2: And after doing this, how is Lindsay now, how's she doing?

1288
01:09:54,040 --> 01:09:56,880
Speaker 3: I think she's doing well. She has a daughter now,

1289
01:09:57,000 --> 01:09:59,880
Speaker 3: and so I think being a mother brings up so

1290
01:10:00,120 --> 01:10:04,559
Speaker 3: much for her. She understands even more what it meant

1291
01:10:04,640 --> 01:10:07,720
Speaker 3: when her parents gave her up, and also what it

1292
01:10:07,760 --> 01:10:10,599
Speaker 3: meant when her parents didn't fully support her after especially

1293
01:10:10,640 --> 01:10:14,040
Speaker 3: her mother who actually wrote to a judge against Lindsey

1294
01:10:14,600 --> 01:10:15,479
Speaker 3: supporting Victor.

1295
01:10:15,920 --> 01:10:18,759
Speaker 2: That was so upsetting. Yeah, yeah, it's so upsetting.

1296
01:10:18,800 --> 01:10:22,360
Speaker 3: And so then becoming a mother, it's she can it's

1297
01:10:22,479 --> 01:10:24,400
Speaker 3: hard to imagine, you know, doing that to your own daughter.

1298
01:10:24,479 --> 01:10:27,120
Speaker 3: But it's also I think is very healing because she

1299
01:10:27,280 --> 01:10:29,439
Speaker 3: is going to make sure that nothing like this happens

1300
01:10:29,479 --> 01:10:32,599
Speaker 3: to her daughter, and she's trying all kinds of ways

1301
01:10:32,640 --> 01:10:36,080
Speaker 3: to have conversations with her daughter about things like this,

1302
01:10:36,240 --> 01:10:40,160
Speaker 3: you know, to preventing abuse from happening, by just speaking

1303
01:10:40,160 --> 01:10:42,320
Speaker 3: more freely with her daughter. Her daughter doesn't know everything

1304
01:10:42,320 --> 01:10:44,479
Speaker 3: that happened in her past, but knows like kind of

1305
01:10:44,520 --> 01:10:50,760
Speaker 3: the short version PG version. But she just has such

1306
01:10:50,760 --> 01:10:53,640
Speaker 3: a beautiful relationship with her daughter, and I think that

1307
01:10:53,840 --> 01:10:57,799
Speaker 3: is so uplifting and gives me so much hope because

1308
01:10:59,160 --> 01:11:02,240
Speaker 3: she's creating the childhood she didn't have. Her childhood was

1309
01:11:02,240 --> 01:11:04,439
Speaker 3: fully robbed from her, and she is like giving that

1310
01:11:04,479 --> 01:11:07,479
Speaker 3: to her daughter. So I think she's just building a

1311
01:11:07,479 --> 01:11:11,400
Speaker 3: beautiful life for herself. And she also really wants people

1312
01:11:11,400 --> 01:11:14,280
Speaker 3: to hear her story and just understand how this can

1313
01:11:14,320 --> 01:11:15,479
Speaker 3: happen a little better.

1314
01:11:16,080 --> 01:11:20,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, it's an incredible podcast, and I don't want

1315
01:11:20,040 --> 01:11:21,880
Speaker 2: to spoil everything or I feel like I'd have more

1316
01:11:22,320 --> 01:11:22,599
Speaker 2: and more.

1317
01:11:22,680 --> 01:11:24,960
Speaker 4: I know we have to leave, we have to leave

1318
01:11:25,000 --> 01:11:26,360
Speaker 4: it up to mystery.

1319
01:11:27,200 --> 01:11:30,479
Speaker 2: But he is in prison right now, right, Yes, Yes,

1320
01:11:30,640 --> 01:11:32,720
Speaker 2: Victor is in prison. They did, they got him, and

1321
01:11:32,760 --> 01:11:34,960
Speaker 2: Lindsay was an instrumental.

1322
01:11:34,280 --> 01:11:34,720
Speaker 1: Part of that.

1323
01:11:35,160 --> 01:11:40,759
Speaker 2: Absolutely. What are some takeaways for both of you after

1324
01:11:40,800 --> 01:11:44,160
Speaker 2: doing this season and maybe also how it connects to

1325
01:11:44,280 --> 01:11:46,960
Speaker 2: the other stories that you've explored in previous seasons.

1326
01:11:47,240 --> 01:11:50,200
Speaker 3: One thing that strikes me is how often these same

1327
01:11:50,240 --> 01:11:52,320
Speaker 3: themes come up again and again. And that's I think

1328
01:11:52,320 --> 01:11:55,599
Speaker 3: what your show shows like so many people have these

1329
01:11:55,800 --> 01:11:58,559
Speaker 3: similar stories and same with us, even though here we're

1330
01:11:58,560 --> 01:12:00,479
Speaker 3: talking about this full blown cult, but we also see

1331
01:12:00,520 --> 01:12:03,880
Speaker 3: it in the ballet world in different ways. How people

1332
01:12:03,960 --> 01:12:07,960
Speaker 3: are using these same tools of control, even things we

1333
01:12:07,960 --> 01:12:09,920
Speaker 3: didn't get in well maybe we touched on a little bit,

1334
01:12:10,000 --> 01:12:15,360
Speaker 3: but even things like roles of women enforcing certain gender roles,

1335
01:12:15,560 --> 01:12:19,960
Speaker 3: or controlling body and wanting thinness and like how that

1336
01:12:20,000 --> 01:12:24,080
Speaker 3: can be connected to cults and just seeing again and

1337
01:12:24,120 --> 01:12:27,320
Speaker 3: again these same patterns is really fascinating to me, and

1338
01:12:27,360 --> 01:12:30,040
Speaker 3: I think it helps me then recognize, like in other

1339
01:12:30,080 --> 01:12:37,040
Speaker 3: communities that aren't cults yet when something bad is going on, Like,

1340
01:12:37,120 --> 01:12:40,000
Speaker 3: I think it's helpful to understand these red flags. And

1341
01:12:40,040 --> 01:12:41,720
Speaker 3: it doesn't have to be a full blown cult whose

1342
01:12:41,800 --> 01:12:44,559
Speaker 3: leader is in prison for us to see those red

1343
01:12:44,560 --> 01:12:47,479
Speaker 3: flags and like try to stop something earlier in the process.

1344
01:12:48,320 --> 01:12:49,080
Speaker 1: So, I don't know.

1345
01:12:49,360 --> 01:12:51,479
Speaker 3: I think it's just been so mind blowing for me

1346
01:12:51,560 --> 01:12:54,120
Speaker 3: over the past five years making this podcast. How often

1347
01:12:54,160 --> 01:12:59,080
Speaker 3: we hear things repeated that I expected it a little bit,

1348
01:12:59,120 --> 01:13:01,400
Speaker 3: but just not to be act that we have seen it?

1349
01:13:02,200 --> 01:13:02,400
Speaker 4: Right?

1350
01:13:03,880 --> 01:13:06,200
Speaker 1: Am I allowed to ask you to a question?

1351
01:13:07,000 --> 01:13:07,719
Speaker 4: All is.

1352
01:13:09,240 --> 01:13:11,799
Speaker 1: What Erica just touched on, I think is the crux

1353
01:13:11,840 --> 01:13:17,280
Speaker 1: of my endless fascination with this issue of groups pushing

1354
01:13:17,320 --> 01:13:21,280
Speaker 1: people to do things that in maybe a typical setting

1355
01:13:21,439 --> 01:13:24,320
Speaker 1: or something they would never do. But yet also then

1356
01:13:24,400 --> 01:13:26,920
Speaker 1: we see some of these power dynamics play out in

1357
01:13:27,000 --> 01:13:31,200
Speaker 1: real life. I'm just curious what you two see as

1358
01:13:32,120 --> 01:13:35,559
Speaker 1: what a cult is or you know, where does that

1359
01:13:36,320 --> 01:13:39,560
Speaker 1: edge end or what? Because Yeah, I think part of

1360
01:13:39,680 --> 01:13:43,200
Speaker 1: Erica's point is that we see similar themes just even

1361
01:13:43,280 --> 01:13:47,240
Speaker 1: in what people would consider normal, healthy communities.

1362
01:13:47,840 --> 01:13:49,519
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, we go so far as to be

1363
01:13:49,560 --> 01:13:53,519
Speaker 4: like a narcissistic relationship. Our use of relationship is culty. Like,

1364
01:13:53,960 --> 01:13:58,360
Speaker 4: there's so many different things that can be dynamically like

1365
01:13:58,439 --> 01:14:02,240
Speaker 4: a cult. Yeah, and also it's a slippery slope where

1366
01:14:02,240 --> 01:14:04,760
Speaker 4: people are like, that's a narciss sister, that's a cult. Yeah.

1367
01:14:04,760 --> 01:14:07,080
Speaker 2: We can over use the words as well, and the

1368
01:14:07,120 --> 01:14:10,120
Speaker 2: main's meaning I this question. I feel like we need

1369
01:14:10,160 --> 01:14:12,920
Speaker 2: to just have our own list of what we've seen

1370
01:14:12,960 --> 01:14:15,280
Speaker 2: over the years. But you know, there's different frameworks. Of course,

1371
01:14:15,320 --> 01:14:19,200
Speaker 2: there's Steve Hassen's BITE model, former guest of Ours Cult Expert,

1372
01:14:19,600 --> 01:14:24,040
Speaker 2: stands for behavior control, information control, thought control, and emotional control.

1373
01:14:24,400 --> 01:14:27,880
Speaker 2: He presents it in the influenced continuum because these things

1374
01:14:27,880 --> 01:14:30,280
Speaker 2: can exist in varying degrees. But you know, of course,

1375
01:14:30,520 --> 01:14:32,080
Speaker 2: the more extreme they are, the more likely it is

1376
01:14:32,080 --> 01:14:34,479
Speaker 2: to be a cult. And there are other frameworks as well.

1377
01:14:34,560 --> 01:14:37,760
Speaker 2: But for me, I like being the single source of

1378
01:14:37,800 --> 01:14:43,639
Speaker 2: truth and no other sources being valid in any way

1379
01:14:43,960 --> 01:14:48,560
Speaker 2: is one of the biggest red flags. Obviously controlling behavior,

1380
01:14:49,120 --> 01:14:53,400
Speaker 2: isolating people from outside community, which again comes back to

1381
01:14:53,439 --> 01:14:55,960
Speaker 2: the single source of truth and really just yeah, the

1382
01:14:56,040 --> 01:14:59,719
Speaker 2: levels of control, because like different variations of that can happen.

1383
01:14:59,720 --> 01:15:01,920
Speaker 2: But if it's not controlling your life. Then I don't

1384
01:15:01,960 --> 01:15:05,000
Speaker 2: think it necessarily matters that much, but when it is

1385
01:15:05,520 --> 01:15:09,120
Speaker 2: making you make decisions that you wouldn't make and disconnecting

1386
01:15:09,160 --> 01:15:12,719
Speaker 2: you from your gut, from yourself, from and from your family,

1387
01:15:12,840 --> 01:15:17,639
Speaker 2: and from your values. Yeah, and with red flags where

1388
01:15:17,640 --> 01:15:20,920
Speaker 2: there's smoke, there's fire, you know, like that sometimes helps

1389
01:15:20,960 --> 01:15:24,040
Speaker 2: me get through to maybe people and the group that

1390
01:15:24,120 --> 01:15:26,920
Speaker 2: I grew up in, Like, hey, listen, if there's like

1391
01:15:26,920 --> 01:15:31,520
Speaker 2: this much chatter, maybe it's not exactly the worst conclusion

1392
01:15:31,560 --> 01:15:33,840
Speaker 2: of the rumor mill, but like it's worth looking into,

1393
01:15:33,880 --> 01:15:35,800
Speaker 2: it's worth looking at. And if you feel like you

1394
01:15:35,840 --> 01:15:39,320
Speaker 2: are forbidden from looking at it exactly and having doubt

1395
01:15:39,520 --> 01:15:42,400
Speaker 2: is off the table or having conversations about it is

1396
01:15:42,439 --> 01:15:46,679
Speaker 2: off the table. I mean that's a major sign of

1397
01:15:47,080 --> 01:15:51,080
Speaker 2: an abusive dynamic, I would say, totally so true. Yeah,

1398
01:15:51,080 --> 01:15:54,040
Speaker 2: that's our that's our take. We definitely we need to

1399
01:15:54,120 --> 01:15:56,040
Speaker 2: make a sense like, well, how do we not have

1400
01:15:56,120 --> 01:16:01,520
Speaker 2: a an I mean, trust me, yeah, we'll do that today, rus.

1401
01:16:06,200 --> 01:16:08,760
Speaker 2: But yeah, I mean we do think of colts as

1402
01:16:08,760 --> 01:16:12,800
Speaker 2: this really extreme thing that happens in these really extreme circumstances.

1403
01:16:12,800 --> 01:16:16,280
Speaker 2: But then once you start applying some of those principles

1404
01:16:16,680 --> 01:16:20,719
Speaker 2: more broadly, It's happening everywhere in so many different forms.

1405
01:16:20,760 --> 01:16:24,880
Speaker 2: And yeah, I think what you guys are doing is

1406
01:16:24,920 --> 01:16:28,800
Speaker 2: so important, educating people and helping them see the parallels.

1407
01:16:29,000 --> 01:16:33,320
Speaker 2: You know, so many people have emerged from their indoctrination

1408
01:16:33,400 --> 01:16:37,120
Speaker 2: simply from hearing someone else's story that isn't attacking their

1409
01:16:37,240 --> 01:16:40,840
Speaker 2: exact belief system or group or leader, but it just

1410
01:16:41,080 --> 01:16:44,559
Speaker 2: is helping them to like see their connection. Yeah, I mean,

1411
01:16:44,600 --> 01:16:47,360
Speaker 2: that's just it helps so many people. So I'm glad

1412
01:16:47,400 --> 01:16:48,519
Speaker 2: you guys aren't doing your show.

1413
01:16:48,920 --> 01:16:49,120
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1414
01:16:49,160 --> 01:16:50,080
Speaker 2: Where do people find it?

1415
01:16:50,120 --> 01:16:50,960
Speaker 4: Where do they find you?

1416
01:16:51,640 --> 01:16:57,400
Speaker 3: Well, you can find it wherever you get your podcasts.

1417
01:16:56,720 --> 01:17:01,080
Speaker 3: It's called The Turning River Road and The Turning has

1418
01:17:01,240 --> 01:17:04,960
Speaker 3: two other seasons as well, but this is the third season.

1419
01:17:05,600 --> 01:17:07,480
Speaker 1: So The Turning great.

1420
01:17:07,400 --> 01:17:08,799
Speaker 4: And go listen.

1421
01:17:10,320 --> 01:17:12,800
Speaker 2: And I cried while listening to it in several episodes.

1422
01:17:13,520 --> 01:17:17,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, so be prepared. Yeah, yeah, it's truly great. So

1423
01:17:17,680 --> 01:17:20,000
Speaker 4: thank you for doing it and for coming on and

1424
01:17:20,040 --> 01:17:23,439
Speaker 4: sharing it. Thank you so much for having us. That

1425
01:17:23,600 --> 01:17:26,599
Speaker 4: is such a crazy story. I am so grateful they

1426
01:17:26,640 --> 01:17:29,240
Speaker 4: came on and did all that work to expose it.

1427
01:17:29,479 --> 01:17:32,799
Speaker 2: I know, it's a great podcast. Everybody, go listen to it, Megan.

1428
01:17:33,120 --> 01:17:34,200
Speaker 2: You know, I was going to ask you if you

1429
01:17:34,200 --> 01:17:36,439
Speaker 2: would join this one, but I kind of think the

1430
01:17:36,479 --> 01:17:37,080
Speaker 2: answer is.

1431
01:17:37,040 --> 01:17:41,040
Speaker 4: No, No, absolutely not, And I'm so sorry for anybody

1432
01:17:41,120 --> 01:17:44,559
Speaker 4: that had to go through that. That is not my

1433
01:17:44,720 --> 01:17:47,760
Speaker 4: kind of cult. But I do want to tell you

1434
01:17:47,800 --> 01:17:50,840
Speaker 4: guys about their first season, the turning that they did.

1435
01:17:51,120 --> 01:17:52,719
Speaker 2: Yes, the Mother Teresa season.

1436
01:17:52,880 --> 01:17:57,160
Speaker 4: Yes. So when we originally were doing this, I thought

1437
01:17:57,160 --> 01:17:59,960
Speaker 4: that that was the season that was the newest season.

1438
01:18:00,640 --> 01:18:02,519
Speaker 4: So I listened to it the whole.

1439
01:18:02,360 --> 01:18:06,720
Speaker 2: Thing, and I did not, So can you tell me

1440
01:18:06,920 --> 01:18:08,000
Speaker 2: because I listened.

1441
01:18:07,680 --> 01:18:11,479
Speaker 4: To the correct season, I also listened to the correct season. No,

1442
01:18:11,640 --> 01:18:14,200
Speaker 4: MEA just did extra list I just did extra listening,

1443
01:18:14,320 --> 01:18:16,960
Speaker 4: which I'm glad I did because, like, I don't know

1444
01:18:16,960 --> 01:18:20,240
Speaker 4: how to say this, but it kind of sounds like

1445
01:18:20,360 --> 01:18:27,200
Speaker 4: Mother Teresa is a bit why you're gonna have to listen.

1446
01:18:27,439 --> 01:18:32,840
Speaker 4: But it's like she was really into like self flatullation.

1447
01:18:33,600 --> 01:18:36,559
Speaker 2: I think I did mention this somewhere in the episode.

1448
01:18:36,600 --> 01:18:39,120
Speaker 4: This episode, like she didn't want people touching each other,

1449
01:18:39,840 --> 01:18:42,599
Speaker 4: like don't even hold the baby for too long because

1450
01:18:42,640 --> 01:18:47,920
Speaker 4: she just didn't want any human emotions to.

1451
01:18:48,000 --> 01:18:51,280
Speaker 2: Form between No, because you only should be connected to

1452
01:18:51,320 --> 01:18:55,040
Speaker 2: God and like kind of an in her and her

1453
01:18:55,160 --> 01:18:57,840
Speaker 2: Oh no, and she was like very self promoting.

1454
01:18:58,960 --> 01:19:04,000
Speaker 4: Oh no, Yeah, I'm like, listen, I'm sure Mother Teresa

1455
01:19:04,120 --> 01:19:06,080
Speaker 4: is very important to a lot of people, and like,

1456
01:19:06,320 --> 01:19:09,000
Speaker 4: I'm not gonna die on this hill. I don't. I

1457
01:19:09,280 --> 01:19:11,160
Speaker 4: didn't know her, don't know her at all.

1458
01:19:11,920 --> 01:19:15,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, that I that I knew. Megan just did not

1459
01:19:15,840 --> 01:19:16,799
Speaker 2: know Mother Teresa.

1460
01:19:17,160 --> 01:19:21,880
Speaker 4: We didn't hang out. Yeah, but I always just kind

1461
01:19:21,880 --> 01:19:24,240
Speaker 4: of took it at face value that she was really

1462
01:19:24,320 --> 01:19:25,040
Speaker 4: the best person.

1463
01:19:25,200 --> 01:19:28,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, like, yeah, what do you what am I Mother Teresa?

1464
01:19:28,920 --> 01:19:32,080
Speaker 2: Like she's used as this like sort of elevated sure.

1465
01:19:32,360 --> 01:19:35,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, So to even consider the fact that she might

1466
01:19:35,160 --> 01:19:36,800
Speaker 4: not be was news to me.

1467
01:19:37,280 --> 01:19:41,680
Speaker 2: That's all I'm saying. Well, it's disappointing, but it's not

1468
01:19:41,720 --> 01:19:44,800
Speaker 2: surprising because anyone we've ever held up at that kind

1469
01:19:44,840 --> 01:19:49,200
Speaker 2: of godlike status is always just a human person who

1470
01:19:49,520 --> 01:19:53,400
Speaker 2: sure probably got the reputation that they got on some

1471
01:19:53,680 --> 01:19:56,840
Speaker 2: level because they wanted to create that reputation.

1472
01:19:57,360 --> 01:19:57,599
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1473
01:19:57,640 --> 01:20:01,000
Speaker 4: I mean, listen to all the seasons the Turning, and

1474
01:20:01,280 --> 01:20:03,520
Speaker 4: let me know what you think about the first one. Obviously,

1475
01:20:03,960 --> 01:20:05,599
Speaker 4: let us know what you think about the third one too,

1476
01:20:05,720 --> 01:20:10,000
Speaker 4: because Lindsay's story is beyond compelling, but I just thought

1477
01:20:10,000 --> 01:20:12,120
Speaker 4: i'd throw it out there that that mother Teresa is

1478
01:20:12,160 --> 01:20:17,840
Speaker 4: a bitch allegedly. And if that offends you, like I,

1479
01:20:18,320 --> 01:20:20,719
Speaker 4: please don't rate us one star.

1480
01:20:20,640 --> 01:20:24,439
Speaker 2: No, please just us, then just go away.

1481
01:20:24,960 --> 01:20:25,320
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1482
01:20:25,439 --> 01:20:28,559
Speaker 4: I don't mean it, I just stars only. I'm just

1483
01:20:28,720 --> 01:20:30,920
Speaker 4: making an observation.

1484
01:20:31,800 --> 01:20:34,680
Speaker 2: So season one of their show, like, who are the

1485
01:20:34,800 --> 01:20:36,040
Speaker 2: people that it's focused.

1486
01:20:35,760 --> 01:20:40,479
Speaker 4: On, like the people that were in her covenent.

1487
01:20:43,040 --> 01:20:51,400
Speaker 2: Convent, convent, her coven covenant ship, she was a witch.

1488
01:20:51,840 --> 01:20:55,559
Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, yeah, it's like the opposite of the sound

1489
01:20:55,560 --> 01:20:57,200
Speaker 4: of Music's Nunnery.

1490
01:20:58,560 --> 01:21:01,000
Speaker 2: I don't know the reference. I haven't seen that movie

1491
01:21:01,000 --> 01:21:03,920
Speaker 2: in so long. I don't know anything. We're talking about.

1492
01:21:03,960 --> 01:21:07,599
Speaker 4: No singing, there's no there's no hills, there's no alive,

1493
01:21:07,920 --> 01:21:11,440
Speaker 4: there's just hitting yourself with like whips.

1494
01:21:11,800 --> 01:21:14,080
Speaker 2: Well that is of common. Yeah, that is not a

1495
01:21:14,080 --> 01:21:15,799
Speaker 2: big catholic nanda.

1496
01:21:16,520 --> 01:21:19,880
Speaker 4: And again like I don't no events.

1497
01:21:19,920 --> 01:21:22,679
Speaker 2: And now none will be taken because you said that. Yeah,

1498
01:21:22,760 --> 01:21:27,400
Speaker 2: I'm just throwing it out there, all right, Well great,

1499
01:21:27,520 --> 01:21:28,280
Speaker 2: yeah we did it.

1500
01:21:28,400 --> 01:21:30,759
Speaker 4: We did it. Thank you so much for listening. Please

1501
01:21:30,840 --> 01:21:36,120
Speaker 4: come listen again next week, And as always, remember to

1502
01:21:36,200 --> 01:21:39,880
Speaker 4: follow your gut, watch out for red flax, and.

1503
01:21:39,960 --> 01:21:46,439
Speaker 2: Never ever trust me Bye. This has been an exactly

1504
01:21:46,479 --> 01:21:48,200
Speaker 2: right production hosted by me Lo.

1505
01:21:48,320 --> 01:21:51,680
Speaker 4: La Blanc and me Megan Elizabeth. Our senior producer is

1506
01:21:51,760 --> 01:21:54,680
Speaker 4: Gee Holly. This episode was mixed by John Bradley. Our

1507
01:21:54,720 --> 01:21:58,080
Speaker 4: associate producer is Christina Chamberlain, and our guest booker is

1508
01:21:58,120 --> 01:21:59,040
Speaker 4: Patrick Kuttner.

1509
01:21:59,360 --> 01:22:01,679
Speaker 2: Our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

1510
01:22:02,000 --> 01:22:06,040
Speaker 4: Trust Me as executive produced by Karen Kilgareth, Georgia Hartstark

1511
01:22:06,120 --> 01:22:07,040
Speaker 4: and Danielle Kramer.

1512
01:22:07,280 --> 01:22:09,559
Speaker 2: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me podcast

1513
01:22:09,720 --> 01:22:11,880
Speaker 2: or on TikTok at trust Me Coult podcast.

1514
01:22:12,200 --> 01:22:15,240
Speaker 4: Got your own story about cults, extreme belief, our manipulation,

1515
01:22:15,640 --> 01:22:18,639
Speaker 4: Shoot us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.

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Speaker 2: Listen to trust Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts