WEBVTT - This Is the Case for Building a More Robust Power Grid 0:00:09.960 --> 0:00:13.960 Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. 0:00:14.000 --> 0:00:17.480 I'm Joe Wisn't and I'm Tracy Halloway. Tracy, you know 0:00:17.560 --> 0:00:20.560 a cliche that I hear a lot or I don't 0:00:20.560 --> 0:00:22.239 know if it's a cliche, but a line that I 0:00:22.320 --> 0:00:27.040 hear a lot is that our electrical power grid is 0:00:27.080 --> 0:00:31.560 not made? What's so fun? Sorry you say a cliche 0:00:31.680 --> 0:00:33.519 that you hear a lot. I think everyone is just 0:00:33.560 --> 0:00:36.159 walking around going like, oh, the electrical power grid is 0:00:36.200 --> 0:00:40.199 not ready for renewables. Maybe I was exaggerated. Are you 0:00:40.280 --> 0:00:43.640 talking to on a daily basis? You're right, I'm talking 0:00:43.680 --> 0:00:45.880 to my my, my, my six year old Dodgers. Isn't 0:00:45.880 --> 0:00:47.960 it to be a lot? She says, Dad. It's great 0:00:48.000 --> 0:00:50.680 to have renewable energy, but our electrical power grid isn't 0:00:50.680 --> 0:00:54.080 that made for intermittent renewables. But you have for a 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:58.680 group that's good. Yes, yes, there are lots of people, um, 0:00:58.680 --> 0:01:00.480 I mean not just in the energies is, but in 0:01:00.560 --> 0:01:03.680 politics as well who will make this point repeatedly. But 0:01:03.720 --> 0:01:05.440 I actually don't know what that means. So I hear 0:01:05.440 --> 0:01:08.600 it it gets repeated, but actually I actually do not 0:01:08.840 --> 0:01:10.520 know what they're saying. When they say that, like it 0:01:10.600 --> 0:01:12.920 sounds like a smart thing to say, But I don't 0:01:12.959 --> 0:01:15.440 have any intuitive sense of like what that means or 0:01:15.480 --> 0:01:18.840 what the difference between our existing grid and how it 0:01:18.880 --> 0:01:21.679 works versus a grid that is optimized for a world 0:01:21.680 --> 0:01:25.319 of much more wind and solar and intermittent sources of 0:01:25.360 --> 0:01:29.400 clean energy. I mean, I have this simplistic view of it, 0:01:29.520 --> 0:01:33.360 I guess, which is that I guess we need more grid, right, 0:01:33.640 --> 0:01:37.800 like just this is the simplest possible like interpretation of that, 0:01:37.920 --> 0:01:40.640 just that our infrastructure isn't where it should be and 0:01:40.680 --> 0:01:42.960 so we should be building newer. But you're right, I 0:01:43.000 --> 0:01:46.840 have no idea whether or not there are technical differences 0:01:46.880 --> 0:01:50.800 between like the types of electricity transmission you need for 0:01:50.840 --> 0:01:56.160 something like solar and wind versus more traditional energy generation 0:01:56.720 --> 0:01:59.800 by you know, natural gas or coal or whatever. So 0:02:00.080 --> 0:02:01.880 the one thing that kind of does make sense to 0:02:01.880 --> 0:02:04.080 me and everybody knows, you know, it's like, you know, 0:02:04.120 --> 0:02:06.880 wind turbines don't do anything when the wind isn't blowing, 0:02:07.000 --> 0:02:08.919 or you don't get any solar power when the sun 0:02:09.000 --> 0:02:11.000 isn't shining, or if there's a lot of clouds or something. 0:02:11.360 --> 0:02:15.640 But if you had really widespread geographical reach of the grid, 0:02:15.880 --> 0:02:18.919 then you could sort of diversify away some of those risks, 0:02:19.160 --> 0:02:22.400 so that if there isn't wind in one area, maybe 0:02:22.880 --> 0:02:25.720 it's more likely that at least somewhere it's windy. So 0:02:25.840 --> 0:02:28.680 you sort of ameliorate some of these risks by longer 0:02:28.720 --> 0:02:31.640 wire is a bigger grid, But beyond that, that's that's it. 0:02:31.720 --> 0:02:33.480 That's the only thing that I sort of like can 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:36.640 sort of into it about maybe what's insufficient about our 0:02:36.680 --> 0:02:40.000 existing grid. I mean, it also seems like doing something 0:02:40.040 --> 0:02:42.600 like that would just be a massive undertaking, both in 0:02:42.760 --> 0:02:45.399 terms of the actual amount of money you would need 0:02:45.520 --> 0:02:49.720 to build something like that, but also just getting different 0:02:49.760 --> 0:02:55.040 groups of people different states to work together, especially in 0:02:55.080 --> 0:02:57.680 the current environment, that seems like a long shot. The 0:02:57.720 --> 0:03:00.200 idea that I don't know, you know, if Texas is 0:03:00.240 --> 0:03:03.200 generating a lot of energy from solar, that they're going 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:05.640 to be willing to send it over to a place 0:03:05.680 --> 0:03:08.320 like Vermont or New Hampshire, and Texas of course has 0:03:08.360 --> 0:03:11.480 its own energy grid. So that's a really bad example, 0:03:11.840 --> 0:03:15.919 but it does kind of it gets to those issues. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, 0:03:15.960 --> 0:03:18.040 and so I am also aware of this. There was, 0:03:18.240 --> 0:03:20.080 like I think there was some plan to bring in 0:03:20.120 --> 0:03:24.480 more quebec Qua hydro power in the Northeast, but there 0:03:24.560 --> 0:03:26.359 was like a vote in Maine and I think and 0:03:26.400 --> 0:03:29.080 they shot it down. And sometimes you hear about these 0:03:29.080 --> 0:03:31.960 big land use battles in the West where people want 0:03:32.080 --> 0:03:34.840 to make you know, wires over big ranches and those 0:03:35.000 --> 0:03:37.840 can get held up. Anyway, there's a lot we need 0:03:37.920 --> 0:03:41.480 to learn more about the grid itself. Yeah, let's do it. Okay, 0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:45.200 I'm very excited to bring in our current guest. We're 0:03:45.200 --> 0:03:47.480 going to be speaking to Rob Gramleck. He is the 0:03:47.520 --> 0:03:51.760 president of Grid Strategies, which consults with all kinds of 0:03:51.760 --> 0:03:56.440 different players in the energy space on grid issues. He's 0:03:56.480 --> 0:03:59.800 been involved in the grid business for about three decades. 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:03.120 He's going to explain what that actually means, what what 0:04:03.200 --> 0:04:06.480 an ideal grid would look like. So Rob, thank you 0:04:06.520 --> 0:04:09.000 so much for coming on odd lots right to be here. 0:04:09.080 --> 0:04:12.600 Tracy and Joe I really appreciate it. So we do 0:04:12.800 --> 0:04:15.800 hear this cliche and again maybe it's not that common, 0:04:15.840 --> 0:04:17.320 but it is a thing that people say. But how 0:04:17.320 --> 0:04:20.039 would you summarize when people say, this is a grid 0:04:20.080 --> 0:04:23.719 that's not made for intermittent renewable power. What are people 0:04:23.760 --> 0:04:28.560 saying in reality, yeah, no, well you you both had 0:04:28.560 --> 0:04:31.760 it right in your in your intro, Tracy kind of said, 0:04:32.240 --> 0:04:36.000 we we need more gridge. You said, you know somewhere 0:04:36.000 --> 0:04:39.600 it's windy. Uh, And those two of course go together. Yeah, 0:04:39.680 --> 0:04:42.400 And that's how renewable energy works, is that there there 0:04:42.440 --> 0:04:47.320 actually is pretty steady overall renewable supply, just not at 0:04:47.360 --> 0:04:52.360 your location. So everybody thinks about renewables as intermittent because 0:04:52.400 --> 0:04:55.880 they're looking at their spot in the country. But if 0:04:55.920 --> 0:04:59.200 you look at across the country, there's actually quite a 0:04:59.240 --> 0:05:01.920 steady supply of renewable energy. But what that means is 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:04.400 you have to connect it and then we get into transmission. 0:05:05.440 --> 0:05:07.760 So I have a really basic question before we go 0:05:07.800 --> 0:05:10.039 any further, And actually I have a feeling I'm going 0:05:10.080 --> 0:05:12.520 to have a bunch of basic questions during this conversation. 0:05:12.680 --> 0:05:16.720 But you know, Joe mentioned your company grid strategies and 0:05:17.040 --> 0:05:20.799 how you talk to different stakeholders when it comes to grids. 0:05:21.000 --> 0:05:25.200 Who are the stakeholders like, who is making the decisions 0:05:25.279 --> 0:05:31.479 on how grids are designed and built? Sure, well, it's 0:05:31.520 --> 0:05:36.080 it's worth stepping back and saying that our electric utility 0:05:36.120 --> 0:05:40.040 business or industry in this country and around the world. 0:05:40.120 --> 0:05:43.760 Really grew up around electric utilities, and these are the 0:05:43.800 --> 0:05:46.640 ones that send you your bill. Every every listener here 0:05:46.800 --> 0:05:49.799 kind of knows who they are in their in their community, 0:05:50.000 --> 0:05:54.200 and they were kind of vertical stylos, vertically integrated utilities 0:05:54.240 --> 0:05:58.960 doing soup to nuts generation transmission, distribution in their local 0:05:59.040 --> 0:06:02.359 area or sort of you know, around their city, or 0:06:02.400 --> 0:06:05.000 maybe they would cover half a state or something like that. 0:06:05.040 --> 0:06:08.360 And there are hundreds of them around the country. Uh, 0:06:08.440 --> 0:06:11.919 those continue to be the main players in the electricity 0:06:11.920 --> 0:06:15.440 business when we are talking about these kind of large 0:06:15.880 --> 0:06:20.400 regional and interstate transmission lines. Because this is the bulk 0:06:20.440 --> 0:06:23.400 power system, it's a little bit of a separate world 0:06:23.520 --> 0:06:27.520 from what's happening locally on the distribution grid and in 0:06:27.600 --> 0:06:31.440 your community. But this bulk power system, as you both 0:06:31.480 --> 0:06:34.200 said in the introduction, requires a heck of a lot 0:06:34.240 --> 0:06:37.640 of coordination and a lot more than it ever used to. 0:06:37.720 --> 0:06:39.880 So what we're doing in the electric industry, and we've 0:06:39.920 --> 0:06:42.160 actually been doing this for the three decades i've been 0:06:42.200 --> 0:06:47.920 in it, is working to develop these regional processes and institutions. 0:06:47.920 --> 0:06:50.479 So we've gone from hundreds and hundreds of these little 0:06:50.600 --> 0:06:54.680 vertical styles two more connections between each of them, this 0:06:55.040 --> 0:06:59.359 sort of horizontal integration through the transmission grid, both with 0:06:59.480 --> 0:07:04.039 physical connections and the institutions that plan that and operate that. 0:07:04.240 --> 0:07:09.400 We have these organizations called Regional transmission Organizations that sometimes 0:07:09.400 --> 0:07:13.160 cover thirteen states, and they're regulated at the federal level. 0:07:13.200 --> 0:07:16.520 The Federal Energy Regulatory Commission is kind of a key 0:07:16.520 --> 0:07:19.480 federal entity that's been trying to put those in place 0:07:19.520 --> 0:07:22.880 around the country and as continuing to try to do that, 0:07:23.080 --> 0:07:26.480 and that was all happening in order to create mainly 0:07:26.520 --> 0:07:29.240 to create competitive markets so you could buy and sell 0:07:29.440 --> 0:07:32.840 power from many states and different suppliers. But then as 0:07:32.880 --> 0:07:36.800 renewable energy came on the scene, really starting about two 0:07:36.840 --> 0:07:41.360 decades ago, suddenly the need increased dramatically to to do 0:07:41.440 --> 0:07:44.320 that because again, the wind is always blowing somewhere and 0:07:44.440 --> 0:07:47.960 you need to make the power output more steady and 0:07:48.080 --> 0:07:51.240 move the power back and forth. So that need increased. 0:07:51.280 --> 0:07:53.280 We're trying to do that, and now as people are 0:07:53.280 --> 0:07:59.440 talking about electrification of transportation with electric cars and electrified buildings, 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:03.200 just the whole demand for electricity goes way up. So 0:08:03.280 --> 0:08:05.960 now now you know all of this on steroids, and 0:08:06.000 --> 0:08:08.560 we really have to work on this regionalization of the 0:08:08.560 --> 0:08:12.000 power system. So first of all, it seems like, you know, 0:08:12.240 --> 0:08:16.320 even though we have yet to see the big upsurge 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:19.360 in e V demand on the grid, we we all 0:08:19.400 --> 0:08:22.280 sort of expect that that's coming. But even before that, 0:08:22.720 --> 0:08:25.200 we're seeing strains on the grid right now. Of course, 0:08:25.280 --> 0:08:28.160 we all know about the blackouts that we've seen in Texas. 0:08:28.400 --> 0:08:32.320 I know there are concerns about whether the grid strains 0:08:32.320 --> 0:08:34.960 in New England this winter and even in the Midwest. 0:08:35.440 --> 0:08:39.280 Can you just sort of maybe quantify or give us 0:08:39.280 --> 0:08:41.440 your summary of like, why is this happening, Why are 0:08:41.480 --> 0:08:45.240 we seeing the grid under such strain today, and how 0:08:45.320 --> 0:08:47.240 much worse is it going to get? What is the 0:08:47.320 --> 0:08:50.839 scale of the problem that needs to be solved as 0:08:51.080 --> 0:08:55.319 we electrify more parts of industry. Sure, and and you're right, 0:08:55.440 --> 0:08:58.319 there are a few lenses through which to look at 0:08:58.320 --> 0:09:01.960 this power system and can forget about for the moment, 0:09:02.640 --> 0:09:06.719 climate change and clean energy. You can forget about competitive 0:09:06.760 --> 0:09:10.439 markets and just think about these severe weather incidents were 0:09:10.440 --> 0:09:15.280 getting and uh, for that reason. It turns out what happens, 0:09:15.679 --> 0:09:18.000 you know, not always, but maybe nine times out of ten, 0:09:18.720 --> 0:09:21.600 is that there's power sharing from one region to the 0:09:21.640 --> 0:09:25.160 next that keeps the lights on. And the recent winter 0:09:25.240 --> 0:09:28.920 storm Uri experience, everybody knows about Texas, and it was 0:09:28.960 --> 0:09:32.480 a horribly tragic event for a few days in the 0:09:32.559 --> 0:09:35.559 middle of winter where people lost their lives and Texas 0:09:35.600 --> 0:09:38.320 imported all that could, but it just could not import 0:09:38.400 --> 0:09:41.920 much power because it's physically disconnected from the Eastern and 0:09:41.960 --> 0:09:45.080 Western grids, whereas all the states to the north of 0:09:45.160 --> 0:09:48.440 Texas going up through the Dakotas at the same weather situation, 0:09:48.840 --> 0:09:52.360 but they did have strong interregional transmission connections and they 0:09:52.400 --> 0:09:55.520 did important tremendous amount of power from places like the 0:09:55.559 --> 0:09:59.080 mid Atlantic region. And what you tend to find again, 0:09:59.280 --> 0:10:03.120 not all ways, but almost always, is that the grid 0:10:03.440 --> 0:10:06.480 is physically bigger than the weather pattern. So even a 0:10:06.520 --> 0:10:10.240 big weather pattern like that big polar vortex was big, 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:12.679 but the grid is bigger and can be bigger if 0:10:12.720 --> 0:10:14.840 we build it up, and so you can have this 0:10:14.920 --> 0:10:17.760 power sharing opportunity to save the day and keep the 0:10:17.840 --> 0:10:21.559 lights on. So that's another completely separate reason to work 0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:25.040 on these large regional and in oregional connections. So the 0:10:25.120 --> 0:10:28.000 idea is that even if your short energy in one 0:10:28.040 --> 0:10:32.760 particular area, because maybe there's a supply disruption or there's 0:10:32.800 --> 0:10:35.000 a sudden surge in demand that you can get it 0:10:35.080 --> 0:10:38.240 from somewhere else where the weather is stable or things 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:42.440 are more normal. I have another basic question when it 0:10:42.480 --> 0:10:46.760 comes to this sort of grid interoperability, but is there 0:10:46.800 --> 0:10:50.720 a difference in the types of transmission mechanisms that you 0:10:50.800 --> 0:10:55.360 need for renewables versus more traditional energy sources, or is 0:10:55.400 --> 0:10:57.600 it just the case that you build more you know, 0:10:57.720 --> 0:11:02.280 electric wires. In general, generally it's the same technology, and 0:11:02.360 --> 0:11:05.760 our transmission system is regulated to be open access to 0:11:05.880 --> 0:11:09.679 all resources, and so you know, you can't even if 0:11:09.679 --> 0:11:12.280 you wanted to. There's no there's no entity that could 0:11:12.280 --> 0:11:15.040 say block coal power from getting access to the grid, 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:18.480 or gas or you know, whatever your preferences are. The 0:11:18.520 --> 0:11:22.760 federal regulators have to be technology neutral, and you generally 0:11:22.960 --> 0:11:26.080 use the same types of high voltage a C alternating 0:11:26.120 --> 0:11:30.800 current lines, interconnected networks across large regions that are the 0:11:30.920 --> 0:11:34.959 same types of lines we used decades ago, and some 0:11:35.040 --> 0:11:38.559 high voltage d C lines that tend to be more economic. 0:11:38.640 --> 0:11:41.600 That's direct current. If you're going a really long distance, 0:11:41.640 --> 0:11:44.840 like it used to be, a hydro plant in the 0:11:44.880 --> 0:11:47.280 middle of the interior West trying to get to a 0:11:47.280 --> 0:11:50.679 major urban area or a mine mouth coal plant going 0:11:50.800 --> 0:11:54.640 hundreds of miles to a city. Uh. Now we have 0:11:54.960 --> 0:11:59.840 similar opportunities, but just with remote wind and solar areas 0:12:00.720 --> 0:12:02.360 on the on the end of the line that we're 0:12:02.400 --> 0:12:06.079 trying to access. And so we do probably have a 0:12:06.120 --> 0:12:08.160 little bit more of a need for these very long 0:12:08.200 --> 0:12:11.760 distance types of lines, which tends to lead to more 0:12:12.679 --> 0:12:16.920 high voltage DC lines relative to the amount of a C. 0:12:17.200 --> 0:12:19.240 But you know, we've always had both, and we're going 0:12:19.280 --> 0:12:22.960 to continue to need both. So it's it's largely you know, 0:12:23.080 --> 0:12:26.079 similar from a technology standpoint. That said, there's a lot 0:12:26.080 --> 0:12:28.000 of if you look at the industry that there's a 0:12:28.000 --> 0:12:31.720 lot of dynamism in the in the innovation. There's advanced conductors, 0:12:31.720 --> 0:12:35.480 there's grit enhancing technologies. The h v d C lines 0:12:35.520 --> 0:12:39.760 themselves and the converter stations provide tremendous reliability benefit that 0:12:39.800 --> 0:12:42.240 they didn't use to. So I mean, I would say it's, 0:12:42.600 --> 0:12:45.320 you know, generally the same type of network to any 0:12:45.520 --> 0:12:48.640 lay person looking at it. But for those people who 0:12:48.720 --> 0:12:51.600 kind of know what the capabilities of these new lines 0:12:51.640 --> 0:12:54.880 and the assets are, there's a there's a lot of 0:12:55.360 --> 0:13:10.000 opportunity to increase the reliability and services that they provide. 0:13:16.400 --> 0:13:18.600 Can you give us I don't know, like if you can, 0:13:19.000 --> 0:13:21.760 you know, explain it like I'm five, or how simple 0:13:22.040 --> 0:13:23.920 simple you can make it, But can you sort of 0:13:24.080 --> 0:13:28.319 explain either the math or the physics of very long 0:13:28.360 --> 0:13:32.679 distance transmission and how much degradation is there? And like 0:13:32.760 --> 0:13:35.480 what's realistic? Like can we get you know, if can 0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:38.320 we get electricity from can we get wind power in 0:13:38.360 --> 0:13:41.040 Iowa to Los Angeles or New York City? Like what 0:13:41.160 --> 0:13:44.960 happens when it goes that far? Yes? Absolutely, and this 0:13:45.000 --> 0:13:48.600 is this is one of the marvels of the electric system. 0:13:48.920 --> 0:13:51.080 And you know it's worth noting. I mean, we we 0:13:51.120 --> 0:13:54.960 do have an engineering marvel on our hands here that 0:13:55.000 --> 0:13:59.679 we've inherited, and it provides tremendous reliability relative to other 0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:03.200 county reason you know what what anybody sort of expected 0:14:03.280 --> 0:14:05.360 years ago. You know, now as we look forward in 0:14:05.400 --> 0:14:08.959 this need to move power around, both for reliability reasons 0:14:08.960 --> 0:14:11.400 and for clean energy and climate reasons. Yeah, we have 0:14:11.440 --> 0:14:13.800 to be realistic about that and think about what it 0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:17.000 can do. A short answer is if you're going from 0:14:17.280 --> 0:14:19.840 the middle of the country to the coast with a 0:14:20.480 --> 0:14:23.320 good high voltage line, you probably lose about ten of 0:14:23.360 --> 0:14:29.760 the power, which is pretty impressive. I mean, that's that's 0:14:26.320 --> 0:14:32.040 a yeah, right. I mean most people think about that 0:14:32.120 --> 0:14:33.720 and it and it and it is and it can 0:14:33.840 --> 0:14:37.680 be if we have we have uh insufficient capacity. I 0:14:37.720 --> 0:14:41.160 mean that's why everything in the transmission business is about scale. 0:14:41.200 --> 0:14:45.200 There are massive economies of scale, meaning the cost per 0:14:45.240 --> 0:14:48.440 delivered megawatt is lower if you build it at a 0:14:48.480 --> 0:14:50.680 bigger size, and you have to build it at that 0:14:50.720 --> 0:14:54.280 bigger size to get those numbers of efficiency and productivity 0:14:54.320 --> 0:14:59.160 for your delivery. So Joe asked you about the technical 0:14:59.240 --> 0:15:02.480 aspects or some of the technical aspects of building long 0:15:02.520 --> 0:15:04.800 distance lines. Can you talk to us a little bit 0:15:04.840 --> 0:15:09.640 about the social or political aspects of that, Like if 0:15:09.720 --> 0:15:12.160 I wanted to build or if someone wanted to build 0:15:12.240 --> 0:15:15.920 a line from what was the example, Ohio to New 0:15:16.000 --> 0:15:19.400 York or whatever, how easy would that be to do 0:15:19.840 --> 0:15:22.200 and what would it involve? It is very difficult, as 0:15:22.200 --> 0:15:25.120 you said at the outset, Tracy, even if it were 0:15:25.160 --> 0:15:28.520 easy from a financial and technical standpoint, how do you 0:15:28.600 --> 0:15:33.600 get the coalition and the support to build and construct 0:15:33.760 --> 0:15:37.200 these major power lines? And I would on this score, 0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:41.160 folks who are interested recommend the book Superpowered by Russell Gold, 0:15:41.520 --> 0:15:44.560 very good read about you know, one experience, one company's 0:15:44.600 --> 0:15:47.640 experience trying to do this, and it is very hard. 0:15:48.000 --> 0:15:51.280 And there are more recent experiences like in Maine with 0:15:51.320 --> 0:15:56.560 the citizen referendum. I would say the problem in those instances, 0:15:56.640 --> 0:16:00.320 First of all, we can overcome those problems. I'm optimist 0:16:00.360 --> 0:16:03.360 about this generally. I want to leave that impression because 0:16:03.400 --> 0:16:06.720 we've we've done it successfully in other instances, but there 0:16:06.760 --> 0:16:10.280 have been a lot of failed examples where there wasn't 0:16:10.360 --> 0:16:14.840 really the broad recognition of the problem or how everybody 0:16:14.840 --> 0:16:19.360 would would benefit. So, for example, in Maine, almost nobody 0:16:19.400 --> 0:16:21.800 from the polling I've seen and talking to people there, 0:16:21.800 --> 0:16:26.200 almost nobody even really thought about the regional clean energy 0:16:26.280 --> 0:16:31.440 benefits of building that line to access Quebec and their 0:16:31.560 --> 0:16:34.920 hydro and wind and clean energy sources and the need 0:16:35.000 --> 0:16:37.400 to move power back and forth between the regions. It 0:16:37.520 --> 0:16:39.880 was really viewed as sort of you know, one one 0:16:39.920 --> 0:16:43.280 company who uh, you know, people thought, well, maybe it's 0:16:43.280 --> 0:16:45.760 in their interest, but it's not mine. And similar instances 0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:48.360 around the country when one line was trying to traverse 0:16:48.360 --> 0:16:52.120 the state and local stakeholders said, well, some investor halfway 0:16:52.120 --> 0:16:54.000 across the country may like it, but why do I 0:16:54.040 --> 0:16:57.560 care about it? So I think we actually we should 0:16:57.560 --> 0:17:01.040 look instead at these successful examples, and we have built 0:17:01.120 --> 0:17:06.560 some very successful long distance lines that generally came out 0:17:06.600 --> 0:17:11.240 of kind of open, transparent regional planning processes. Is probably 0:17:11.280 --> 0:17:17.040 boring as I as I say it out loud, but 0:17:17.040 --> 0:17:20.040 but they do work. And and even just recently this 0:17:20.320 --> 0:17:24.320 group called MYCEO the it's the grid operator and planner 0:17:24.520 --> 0:17:27.400 in a thirteen state region in the center of the country. 0:17:27.960 --> 0:17:31.160 They just put together another agreement where all the states involved, 0:17:31.200 --> 0:17:34.439 all the utilities, and they put together a ten plus 0:17:34.480 --> 0:17:38.840 billion dollar transmission plan that would connect many many tens 0:17:39.000 --> 0:17:43.760 gigawatts of clean energy UH and also provide reliability benefits. 0:17:43.800 --> 0:17:47.000 And I think when everybody's engaged in that process, UH, 0:17:47.040 --> 0:17:49.719 and then it goes into a local or a state 0:17:50.000 --> 0:17:54.280 transmission permitting proceeding. Right, we have mostly local and state 0:17:54.280 --> 0:17:58.280 authority over the permitting of these lines. Then that regional 0:17:58.320 --> 0:18:02.359 consensus can be reflected the the technical people from those 0:18:02.400 --> 0:18:05.240 planning organizations can come in and testify and say here 0:18:05.280 --> 0:18:08.520 the benefits. When that happens, the batting average has been 0:18:08.560 --> 0:18:12.159 over When it's just one developer on their own, the 0:18:12.160 --> 0:18:15.080 batting average has been closer to ten percent, And so 0:18:15.680 --> 0:18:18.000 I think we need to get more to the regional 0:18:18.000 --> 0:18:20.840 planning process. There there can and will It should be 0:18:20.880 --> 0:18:23.960 some some of these independent developers out there picking off 0:18:24.000 --> 0:18:26.400 opportunities and if they can put together all the least 0:18:26.400 --> 0:18:29.520 agreements with rangers and farmers across along the way, and 0:18:29.560 --> 0:18:33.640 hopefully I know the administrations trying to open up interstate 0:18:33.720 --> 0:18:38.119 highways more and railway corridors some of these existing corridors, 0:18:38.520 --> 0:18:40.800 you know, then that could be more of an opportunity 0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:44.080 for independent developers. So I think we'll see some of 0:18:44.080 --> 0:18:47.000 that too. But there are a couple of different ways 0:18:47.040 --> 0:18:49.720 to do this that I think can be successful. But 0:18:49.800 --> 0:18:52.440 you know, they have to work around exactly what you're 0:18:52.440 --> 0:18:56.080 asking about, these these occasional local resistance, largely with people 0:18:56.080 --> 0:18:57.840 who say, well, what's in it for me? Why is 0:18:57.880 --> 0:19:00.200 this something I should put up with? You know? Want 0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:03.520 to ask further about that is a actually two questions, 0:19:03.560 --> 0:19:07.040 but A are there other clear things that could be 0:19:07.080 --> 0:19:10.360 done at the federal level, either regulatory or bypassing laws 0:19:10.400 --> 0:19:13.680 that might make it easier and be. We're recording this 0:19:14.240 --> 0:19:17.880 August five as of right now that the Climate Bill 0:19:17.960 --> 0:19:21.040 or the Inflation Reduction Act hasn't passed, so we don't 0:19:21.040 --> 0:19:23.040 know for sure if it will. But is there anything 0:19:23.240 --> 0:19:30.280 in there that affects grid specific development? So I would say, honestly, 0:19:30.680 --> 0:19:33.600 there's not a lot that has passed or is likely 0:19:33.680 --> 0:19:38.040 to pass real soon that that helps a great deal. 0:19:38.640 --> 0:19:41.880 I would say, to the credit of the administration and 0:19:42.280 --> 0:19:45.840 some of the various centers, including Senator Mansion and uh, 0:19:46.280 --> 0:19:49.160 some of the Republicans, there seems to be a much 0:19:49.160 --> 0:19:52.280 greater will and interest in seeing this type of transmission 0:19:52.320 --> 0:19:55.919 infrastructure and supporting the clean energy evolution with it, and 0:19:55.960 --> 0:20:01.320 supporting reliability as well, but we haven't converged on exactly 0:20:01.320 --> 0:20:05.399 what that policy should be. There's despite a lot of 0:20:05.400 --> 0:20:08.600 the headlines, there really was barely any actual money, and 0:20:08.680 --> 0:20:12.399 that by part of an infrastructure law for transmission. You know, 0:20:12.520 --> 0:20:15.520 I've folks like me had sort of argued, look what 0:20:15.640 --> 0:20:20.400 we spend Our industrate highways are paid for by taxpayers 0:20:21.080 --> 0:20:24.399 by the federal government. Shouldn't we have something closer to 0:20:24.480 --> 0:20:27.840 that for transmission, which our interstate highway in nature, and 0:20:27.880 --> 0:20:31.119 that everybody benefits across you know, dozens of states, and 0:20:31.160 --> 0:20:34.919 we almost got a tax credit for transmission, didn't make 0:20:34.960 --> 0:20:38.920 it through. I think they are looking at alternative ways, 0:20:39.080 --> 0:20:43.480 and there's this uh conceptual agreement between Senator Schumer and 0:20:43.480 --> 0:20:46.800 Senator Mansion that holds great promise and hopefully that would 0:20:46.960 --> 0:20:50.680 that would help a lot. And separately, at the regulatory level, 0:20:51.200 --> 0:20:56.520 the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission has very strong jurisdiction over this, 0:20:56.760 --> 0:21:00.480 and they have prioritized this very issue and are working 0:21:00.520 --> 0:21:03.439 on it, and thus far they've been moving forward on 0:21:03.480 --> 0:21:06.560 a bipartisan basis to try to fix some of these 0:21:06.560 --> 0:21:12.760 problems and get the transmission agreements together in these regional 0:21:12.800 --> 0:21:16.200 planning processes. So there there is some there's definitely some hope, 0:21:16.280 --> 0:21:18.680 and you know, maybe where there's a will, there's a way. 0:21:18.960 --> 0:21:23.280 But I'm my honest scorecard of where we are sitting 0:21:23.280 --> 0:21:26.160 here today is that there hasn't been a lot that's 0:21:26.200 --> 0:21:30.320 passed that would really transform this, like I think needs 0:21:30.320 --> 0:21:34.040 to happen. What would be the most helpful in terms 0:21:34.080 --> 0:21:37.960 of building out the grid, like if you could see anything, 0:21:38.080 --> 0:21:41.280 whether it's I don't know, just having people be more 0:21:41.400 --> 0:21:45.240 amenable to having electricity wires strung up in their backyards, 0:21:45.840 --> 0:21:48.399 or more funding from the federal government. What would you 0:21:48.400 --> 0:21:51.760 like to see? If I had my druthers, I would say, 0:21:52.040 --> 0:21:57.399 let's get these regional and interregional processes set up to 0:21:57.600 --> 0:22:01.760 plan a robust grid for the expected future power makes, 0:22:01.960 --> 0:22:06.639 say thirty years out UM. Put together plans use as 0:22:06.720 --> 0:22:10.639 much as possible existing corridors. That example I mentioned in 0:22:10.680 --> 0:22:14.000 the Midwest, of those lines are going to be upgrades 0:22:14.040 --> 0:22:17.840 over existing rights of way in corridors, so you know, yes, 0:22:17.880 --> 0:22:21.040 there will be some new lines, but um, you know 0:22:21.200 --> 0:22:24.520 there will doesn't need to be that much. UM. You know, 0:22:24.600 --> 0:22:28.080 actual new new corridors and rights of way. UM. And 0:22:28.119 --> 0:22:34.000 then importantly, those regional agreements involve who pays and how much. 0:22:34.080 --> 0:22:39.040 And I really think either Congress or this Federal Energy 0:22:39.080 --> 0:22:43.720 Regulatory Commission need to put together a policy where everybody share. 0:22:43.760 --> 0:22:47.360 Everybody who benefits shares in the in the payment. Um. 0:22:47.720 --> 0:22:51.280 The The economic problem here is the classic public good 0:22:51.320 --> 0:22:55.040 where if everybody benefits, uh. And you know, even if 0:22:55.200 --> 0:23:00.320 in some individual pays a lot into this fund, everybody 0:23:00.320 --> 0:23:02.680 else benefits just as much as they do, which means 0:23:02.680 --> 0:23:04.800 they don't have an incentive to do that. So there's 0:23:04.840 --> 0:23:09.320 a strong disincentive to actually fund this infrastructure. So we 0:23:09.400 --> 0:23:12.919 need to get some kind of collective agreements together, you know, 0:23:13.080 --> 0:23:17.760 in partnership with states in the region. But what I 0:23:17.840 --> 0:23:22.400 just described as a million conversations with a million entities, 0:23:22.440 --> 0:23:24.240 and all of that has to has to go well. 0:23:24.320 --> 0:23:28.440 So it's it's hard work and it's not Maybe two 0:23:28.560 --> 0:23:31.159 doesn't sound too exciting, but it really needs to happen. 0:23:31.240 --> 0:23:35.560 And if you know, Congress and Firk, the federal agency 0:23:35.640 --> 0:23:40.480 here can require that to happen, or directed or encourage 0:23:40.480 --> 0:23:43.760 it than than I think, we really can get this 0:23:43.880 --> 0:23:47.760 done and get a grid that's able to handle the climate, 0:23:47.760 --> 0:23:50.800