1 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. 2 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:17,480 Speaker 1: I'm Joe Wisn't and I'm Tracy Halloway. Tracy, you know 3 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: a cliche that I hear a lot or I don't 4 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:22,239 Speaker 1: know if it's a cliche, but a line that I 5 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 1: hear a lot is that our electrical power grid is 6 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 1: not made? What's so fun? Sorry you say a cliche 7 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:33,519 Speaker 1: that you hear a lot. I think everyone is just 8 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:36,159 Speaker 1: walking around going like, oh, the electrical power grid is 9 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:40,199 Speaker 1: not ready for renewables. Maybe I was exaggerated. Are you 10 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 1: talking to on a daily basis? You're right, I'm talking 11 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:45,880 Speaker 1: to my my, my, my six year old Dodgers. Isn't 12 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 1: it to be a lot? She says, Dad. It's great 13 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 1: to have renewable energy, but our electrical power grid isn't 14 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 1: that made for intermittent renewables. But you have for a 15 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:58,680 Speaker 1: group that's good. Yes, yes, there are lots of people, um, 16 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 1: I mean not just in the energies is, but in 17 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 1: politics as well who will make this point repeatedly. But 18 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 1: I actually don't know what that means. So I hear 19 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 1: it it gets repeated, but actually I actually do not 20 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 1: know what they're saying. When they say that, like it 21 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:12,920 Speaker 1: sounds like a smart thing to say, But I don't 22 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 1: have any intuitive sense of like what that means or 23 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:18,840 Speaker 1: what the difference between our existing grid and how it 24 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:21,679 Speaker 1: works versus a grid that is optimized for a world 25 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:25,319 Speaker 1: of much more wind and solar and intermittent sources of 26 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:29,400 Speaker 1: clean energy. I mean, I have this simplistic view of it, 27 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 1: I guess, which is that I guess we need more grid, right, 28 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 1: like just this is the simplest possible like interpretation of that, 29 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 1: just that our infrastructure isn't where it should be and 30 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:42,960 Speaker 1: so we should be building newer. But you're right, I 31 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 1: have no idea whether or not there are technical differences 32 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: between like the types of electricity transmission you need for 33 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 1: something like solar and wind versus more traditional energy generation 34 00:01:56,720 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 1: by you know, natural gas or coal or whatever. So 35 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 1: the one thing that kind of does make sense to 36 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 1: me and everybody knows, you know, it's like, you know, 37 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 1: wind turbines don't do anything when the wind isn't blowing, 38 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:08,919 Speaker 1: or you don't get any solar power when the sun 39 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 1: isn't shining, or if there's a lot of clouds or something. 40 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:15,640 Speaker 1: But if you had really widespread geographical reach of the grid, 41 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:18,919 Speaker 1: then you could sort of diversify away some of those risks, 42 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 1: so that if there isn't wind in one area, maybe 43 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 1: it's more likely that at least somewhere it's windy. So 44 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:28,680 Speaker 1: you sort of ameliorate some of these risks by longer 45 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:31,640 Speaker 1: wire is a bigger grid, But beyond that, that's that's it. 46 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 1: That's the only thing that I sort of like can 47 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:36,640 Speaker 1: sort of into it about maybe what's insufficient about our 48 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 1: existing grid. I mean, it also seems like doing something 49 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 1: like that would just be a massive undertaking, both in 50 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:45,399 Speaker 1: terms of the actual amount of money you would need 51 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 1: to build something like that, but also just getting different 52 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 1: groups of people different states to work together, especially in 53 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:57,680 Speaker 1: the current environment, that seems like a long shot. The 54 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 1: idea that I don't know, you know, if Texas is 55 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 1: generating a lot of energy from solar, that they're going 56 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:05,640 Speaker 1: to be willing to send it over to a place 57 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 1: like Vermont or New Hampshire, and Texas of course has 58 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 1: its own energy grid. So that's a really bad example, 59 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:15,919 Speaker 1: but it does kind of it gets to those issues. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, 60 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 1: and so I am also aware of this. There was, 61 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:20,080 Speaker 1: like I think there was some plan to bring in 62 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 1: more quebec Qua hydro power in the Northeast, but there 63 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:26,359 Speaker 1: was like a vote in Maine and I think and 64 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:29,080 Speaker 1: they shot it down. And sometimes you hear about these 65 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 1: big land use battles in the West where people want 66 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 1: to make you know, wires over big ranches and those 67 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 1: can get held up. Anyway, there's a lot we need 68 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 1: to learn more about the grid itself. Yeah, let's do it. Okay, 69 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 1: I'm very excited to bring in our current guest. We're 70 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 1: going to be speaking to Rob Gramleck. He is the 71 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 1: president of Grid Strategies, which consults with all kinds of 72 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 1: different players in the energy space on grid issues. He's 73 00:03:56,480 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 1: been involved in the grid business for about three decades. 74 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 1: He's going to explain what that actually means, what what 75 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 1: an ideal grid would look like. So Rob, thank you 76 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 1: so much for coming on odd lots right to be here. 77 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 1: Tracy and Joe I really appreciate it. So we do 78 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 1: hear this cliche and again maybe it's not that common, 79 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 1: but it is a thing that people say. But how 80 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:20,039 Speaker 1: would you summarize when people say, this is a grid 81 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:23,719 Speaker 1: that's not made for intermittent renewable power. What are people 82 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 1: saying in reality, yeah, no, well you you both had 83 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 1: it right in your in your intro, Tracy kind of said, 84 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 1: we we need more gridge. You said, you know somewhere 85 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:39,600 Speaker 1: it's windy. Uh, And those two of course go together. Yeah, 86 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 1: And that's how renewable energy works, is that there there 87 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 1: actually is pretty steady overall renewable supply, just not at 88 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:52,360 Speaker 1: your location. So everybody thinks about renewables as intermittent because 89 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 1: they're looking at their spot in the country. But if 90 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 1: you look at across the country, there's actually quite a 91 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:01,920 Speaker 1: steady supply of renewable energy. But what that means is 92 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 1: you have to connect it and then we get into transmission. 93 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 1: So I have a really basic question before we go 94 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:10,039 Speaker 1: any further, And actually I have a feeling I'm going 95 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 1: to have a bunch of basic questions during this conversation. 96 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:16,720 Speaker 1: But you know, Joe mentioned your company grid strategies and 97 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:20,799 Speaker 1: how you talk to different stakeholders when it comes to grids. 98 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 1: Who are the stakeholders like, who is making the decisions 99 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:31,479 Speaker 1: on how grids are designed and built? Sure, well, it's 100 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 1: it's worth stepping back and saying that our electric utility 101 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:40,040 Speaker 1: business or industry in this country and around the world. 102 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 1: Really grew up around electric utilities, and these are the 103 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 1: ones that send you your bill. Every every listener here 104 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:49,799 Speaker 1: kind of knows who they are in their in their community, 105 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 1: and they were kind of vertical stylos, vertically integrated utilities 106 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 1: doing soup to nuts generation transmission, distribution in their local 107 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:02,359 Speaker 1: area or sort of you know, around their city, or 108 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 1: maybe they would cover half a state or something like that. 109 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 1: And there are hundreds of them around the country. Uh, 110 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:11,919 Speaker 1: those continue to be the main players in the electricity 111 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 1: business when we are talking about these kind of large 112 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:20,400 Speaker 1: regional and interstate transmission lines. Because this is the bulk 113 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 1: power system, it's a little bit of a separate world 114 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 1: from what's happening locally on the distribution grid and in 115 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 1: your community. But this bulk power system, as you both 116 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 1: said in the introduction, requires a heck of a lot 117 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 1: of coordination and a lot more than it ever used to. 118 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 1: So what we're doing in the electric industry, and we've 119 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:42,160 Speaker 1: actually been doing this for the three decades i've been 120 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:47,920 Speaker 1: in it, is working to develop these regional processes and institutions. 121 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:50,479 Speaker 1: So we've gone from hundreds and hundreds of these little 122 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 1: vertical styles two more connections between each of them, this 123 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:59,359 Speaker 1: sort of horizontal integration through the transmission grid, both with 124 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:04,039 Speaker 1: physical connections and the institutions that plan that and operate that. 125 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 1: We have these organizations called Regional transmission Organizations that sometimes 126 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 1: cover thirteen states, and they're regulated at the federal level. 127 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 1: The Federal Energy Regulatory Commission is kind of a key 128 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 1: federal entity that's been trying to put those in place 129 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 1: around the country and as continuing to try to do that, 130 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 1: and that was all happening in order to create mainly 131 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 1: to create competitive markets so you could buy and sell 132 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 1: power from many states and different suppliers. But then as 133 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 1: renewable energy came on the scene, really starting about two 134 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 1: decades ago, suddenly the need increased dramatically to to do 135 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 1: that because again, the wind is always blowing somewhere and 136 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 1: you need to make the power output more steady and 137 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 1: move the power back and forth. So that need increased. 138 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 1: We're trying to do that, and now as people are 139 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 1: talking about electrification of transportation with electric cars and electrified buildings, 140 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 1: just the whole demand for electricity goes way up. So 141 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 1: now now you know all of this on steroids, and 142 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:08,560 Speaker 1: we really have to work on this regionalization of the 143 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 1: power system. So first of all, it seems like, you know, 144 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 1: even though we have yet to see the big upsurge 145 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 1: in e V demand on the grid, we we all 146 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 1: sort of expect that that's coming. But even before that, 147 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 1: we're seeing strains on the grid right now. Of course, 148 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 1: we all know about the blackouts that we've seen in Texas. 149 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:32,320 Speaker 1: I know there are concerns about whether the grid strains 150 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 1: in New England this winter and even in the Midwest. 151 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:39,280 Speaker 1: Can you just sort of maybe quantify or give us 152 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:41,440 Speaker 1: your summary of like, why is this happening, Why are 153 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 1: we seeing the grid under such strain today, and how 154 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 1: much worse is it going to get? What is the 155 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:50,839 Speaker 1: scale of the problem that needs to be solved as 156 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:55,319 Speaker 1: we electrify more parts of industry. Sure, and and you're right, 157 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:58,319 Speaker 1: there are a few lenses through which to look at 158 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:01,960 Speaker 1: this power system and can forget about for the moment, 159 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:06,719 Speaker 1: climate change and clean energy. You can forget about competitive 160 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:10,439 Speaker 1: markets and just think about these severe weather incidents were 161 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 1: getting and uh, for that reason. It turns out what happens, 162 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 1: you know, not always, but maybe nine times out of ten, 163 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 1: is that there's power sharing from one region to the 164 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 1: next that keeps the lights on. And the recent winter 165 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 1: storm Uri experience, everybody knows about Texas, and it was 166 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 1: a horribly tragic event for a few days in the 167 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:35,559 Speaker 1: middle of winter where people lost their lives and Texas 168 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:38,320 Speaker 1: imported all that could, but it just could not import 169 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 1: much power because it's physically disconnected from the Eastern and 170 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:45,080 Speaker 1: Western grids, whereas all the states to the north of 171 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:48,440 Speaker 1: Texas going up through the Dakotas at the same weather situation, 172 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:52,360 Speaker 1: but they did have strong interregional transmission connections and they 173 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 1: did important tremendous amount of power from places like the 174 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:59,080 Speaker 1: mid Atlantic region. And what you tend to find again, 175 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 1: not all ways, but almost always, is that the grid 176 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 1: is physically bigger than the weather pattern. So even a 177 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: big weather pattern like that big polar vortex was big, 178 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:12,679 Speaker 1: but the grid is bigger and can be bigger if 179 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:14,840 Speaker 1: we build it up, and so you can have this 180 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 1: power sharing opportunity to save the day and keep the 181 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:21,559 Speaker 1: lights on. So that's another completely separate reason to work 182 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 1: on these large regional and in oregional connections. So the 183 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 1: idea is that even if your short energy in one 184 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 1: particular area, because maybe there's a supply disruption or there's 185 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:35,000 Speaker 1: a sudden surge in demand that you can get it 186 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 1: from somewhere else where the weather is stable or things 187 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:42,440 Speaker 1: are more normal. I have another basic question when it 188 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 1: comes to this sort of grid interoperability, but is there 189 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:50,720 Speaker 1: a difference in the types of transmission mechanisms that you 190 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:55,360 Speaker 1: need for renewables versus more traditional energy sources, or is 191 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:57,600 Speaker 1: it just the case that you build more you know, 192 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 1: electric wires. In general, generally it's the same technology, and 193 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 1: our transmission system is regulated to be open access to 194 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:09,679 Speaker 1: all resources, and so you know, you can't even if 195 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 1: you wanted to. There's no there's no entity that could 196 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 1: say block coal power from getting access to the grid, 197 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 1: or gas or you know, whatever your preferences are. The 198 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 1: federal regulators have to be technology neutral, and you generally 199 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:26,080 Speaker 1: use the same types of high voltage a C alternating 200 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 1: current lines, interconnected networks across large regions that are the 201 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:34,959 Speaker 1: same types of lines we used decades ago, and some 202 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:38,559 Speaker 1: high voltage d C lines that tend to be more economic. 203 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:41,600 Speaker 1: That's direct current. If you're going a really long distance, 204 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 1: like it used to be, a hydro plant in the 205 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:47,280 Speaker 1: middle of the interior West trying to get to a 206 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:50,679 Speaker 1: major urban area or a mine mouth coal plant going 207 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 1: hundreds of miles to a city. Uh. Now we have 208 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:59,840 Speaker 1: similar opportunities, but just with remote wind and solar areas 209 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 1: on the on the end of the line that we're 210 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:06,079 Speaker 1: trying to access. And so we do probably have a 211 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 1: little bit more of a need for these very long 212 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 1: distance types of lines, which tends to lead to more 213 00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 1: high voltage DC lines relative to the amount of a C. 214 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 1: But you know, we've always had both, and we're going 215 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:22,960 Speaker 1: to continue to need both. So it's it's largely you know, 216 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:26,079 Speaker 1: similar from a technology standpoint. That said, there's a lot 217 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 1: of if you look at the industry that there's a 218 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 1: lot of dynamism in the in the innovation. There's advanced conductors, 219 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 1: there's grit enhancing technologies. The h v d C lines 220 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:39,760 Speaker 1: themselves and the converter stations provide tremendous reliability benefit that 221 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 1: they didn't use to. So I mean, I would say it's, 222 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:45,320 Speaker 1: you know, generally the same type of network to any 223 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 1: lay person looking at it. But for those people who 224 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 1: kind of know what the capabilities of these new lines 225 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:54,880 Speaker 1: and the assets are, there's a there's a lot of 226 00:12:55,360 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 1: opportunity to increase the reliability and services that they provide. 227 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 1: Can you give us I don't know, like if you can, 228 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 1: you know, explain it like I'm five, or how simple 229 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 1: simple you can make it, But can you sort of 230 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:28,319 Speaker 1: explain either the math or the physics of very long 231 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:32,679 Speaker 1: distance transmission and how much degradation is there? And like 232 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 1: what's realistic? Like can we get you know, if can 233 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:38,320 Speaker 1: we get electricity from can we get wind power in 234 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 1: Iowa to Los Angeles or New York City? Like what 235 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:44,960 Speaker 1: happens when it goes that far? Yes? Absolutely, and this 236 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 1: is this is one of the marvels of the electric system. 237 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:51,080 Speaker 1: And you know it's worth noting. I mean, we we 238 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:54,960 Speaker 1: do have an engineering marvel on our hands here that 239 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:59,679 Speaker 1: we've inherited, and it provides tremendous reliability relative to other 240 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:03,200 Speaker 1: county reason you know what what anybody sort of expected 241 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 1: years ago. You know, now as we look forward in 242 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:08,959 Speaker 1: this need to move power around, both for reliability reasons 243 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 1: and for clean energy and climate reasons. Yeah, we have 244 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 1: to be realistic about that and think about what it 245 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 1: can do. A short answer is if you're going from 246 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 1: the middle of the country to the coast with a 247 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 1: good high voltage line, you probably lose about ten of 248 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 1: the power, which is pretty impressive. I mean, that's that's 249 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 1: a yeah, right. I mean most people think about that 250 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 1: and it and it and it is and it can 251 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 1: be if we have we have uh insufficient capacity. I 252 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 1: mean that's why everything in the transmission business is about scale. 253 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: There are massive economies of scale, meaning the cost per 254 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 1: delivered megawatt is lower if you build it at a 255 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 1: bigger size, and you have to build it at that 256 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 1: bigger size to get those numbers of efficiency and productivity 257 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 1: for your delivery. So Joe asked you about the technical 258 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 1: aspects or some of the technical aspects of building long 259 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 1: distance lines. Can you talk to us a little bit 260 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 1: about the social or political aspects of that, Like if 261 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:12,160 Speaker 1: I wanted to build or if someone wanted to build 262 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 1: a line from what was the example, Ohio to New 263 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 1: York or whatever, how easy would that be to do 264 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 1: and what would it involve? It is very difficult, as 265 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 1: you said at the outset, Tracy, even if it were 266 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 1: easy from a financial and technical standpoint, how do you 267 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 1: get the coalition and the support to build and construct 268 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 1: these major power lines? And I would on this score, 269 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 1: folks who are interested recommend the book Superpowered by Russell Gold, 270 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 1: very good read about you know, one experience, one company's 271 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 1: experience trying to do this, and it is very hard. 272 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:51,280 Speaker 1: And there are more recent experiences like in Maine with 273 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 1: the citizen referendum. I would say the problem in those instances, 274 00:15:56,640 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 1: First of all, we can overcome those problems. I'm optimist 275 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:03,360 Speaker 1: about this generally. I want to leave that impression because 276 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 1: we've we've done it successfully in other instances, but there 277 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 1: have been a lot of failed examples where there wasn't 278 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:14,840 Speaker 1: really the broad recognition of the problem or how everybody 279 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 1: would would benefit. So, for example, in Maine, almost nobody 280 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 1: from the polling I've seen and talking to people there, 281 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 1: almost nobody even really thought about the regional clean energy 282 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 1: benefits of building that line to access Quebec and their 283 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 1: hydro and wind and clean energy sources and the need 284 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 1: to move power back and forth between the regions. It 285 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 1: was really viewed as sort of you know, one one 286 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 1: company who uh, you know, people thought, well, maybe it's 287 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:45,760 Speaker 1: in their interest, but it's not mine. And similar instances 288 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 1: around the country when one line was trying to traverse 289 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 1: the state and local stakeholders said, well, some investor halfway 290 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 1: across the country may like it, but why do I 291 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 1: care about it? So I think we actually we should 292 00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 1: look instead at these successful examples, and we have built 293 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 1: some very successful long distance lines that generally came out 294 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:11,240 Speaker 1: of kind of open, transparent regional planning processes. Is probably 295 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 1: boring as I as I say it out loud, but 296 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 1: but they do work. And and even just recently this 297 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 1: group called MYCEO the it's the grid operator and planner 298 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:27,400 Speaker 1: in a thirteen state region in the center of the country. 299 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:31,160 Speaker 1: They just put together another agreement where all the states involved, 300 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:34,439 Speaker 1: all the utilities, and they put together a ten plus 301 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:38,840 Speaker 1: billion dollar transmission plan that would connect many many tens 302 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:43,760 Speaker 1: gigawatts of clean energy UH and also provide reliability benefits. 303 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 1: And I think when everybody's engaged in that process, UH, 304 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:49,719 Speaker 1: and then it goes into a local or a state 305 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 1: transmission permitting proceeding. Right, we have mostly local and state 306 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: authority over the permitting of these lines. Then that regional 307 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:02,359 Speaker 1: consensus can be reflected the the technical people from those 308 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 1: planning organizations can come in and testify and say here 309 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 1: the benefits. When that happens, the batting average has been 310 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:12,159 Speaker 1: over When it's just one developer on their own, the 311 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 1: batting average has been closer to ten percent, And so 312 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 1: I think we need to get more to the regional 313 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 1: planning process. There there can and will It should be 314 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 1: some some of these independent developers out there picking off 315 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:26,400 Speaker 1: opportunities and if they can put together all the least 316 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 1: agreements with rangers and farmers across along the way, and 317 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:33,640 Speaker 1: hopefully I know the administrations trying to open up interstate 318 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:38,119 Speaker 1: highways more and railway corridors some of these existing corridors, 319 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 1: you know, then that could be more of an opportunity 320 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 1: for independent developers. So I think we'll see some of 321 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 1: that too. But there are a couple of different ways 322 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:49,720 Speaker 1: to do this that I think can be successful. But 323 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:52,440 Speaker 1: you know, they have to work around exactly what you're 324 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 1: asking about, these these occasional local resistance, largely with people 325 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 1: who say, well, what's in it for me? Why is 326 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:00,200 Speaker 1: this something I should put up with? You know? Want 327 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 1: to ask further about that is a actually two questions, 328 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 1: but A are there other clear things that could be 329 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:10,360 Speaker 1: done at the federal level, either regulatory or bypassing laws 330 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:13,680 Speaker 1: that might make it easier and be. We're recording this 331 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:17,880 Speaker 1: August five as of right now that the Climate Bill 332 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 1: or the Inflation Reduction Act hasn't passed, so we don't 333 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:23,040 Speaker 1: know for sure if it will. But is there anything 334 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:30,280 Speaker 1: in there that affects grid specific development? So I would say, honestly, 335 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 1: there's not a lot that has passed or is likely 336 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 1: to pass real soon that that helps a great deal. 337 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:41,880 Speaker 1: I would say, to the credit of the administration and 338 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 1: some of the various centers, including Senator Mansion and uh, 339 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:49,160 Speaker 1: some of the Republicans, there seems to be a much 340 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:52,280 Speaker 1: greater will and interest in seeing this type of transmission 341 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:55,919 Speaker 1: infrastructure and supporting the clean energy evolution with it, and 342 00:19:55,960 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 1: supporting reliability as well, but we haven't converged on exactly 343 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:05,399 Speaker 1: what that policy should be. There's despite a lot of 344 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 1: the headlines, there really was barely any actual money, and 345 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:12,399 Speaker 1: that by part of an infrastructure law for transmission. You know, 346 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 1: I've folks like me had sort of argued, look what 347 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:20,400 Speaker 1: we spend Our industrate highways are paid for by taxpayers 348 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:24,399 Speaker 1: by the federal government. Shouldn't we have something closer to 349 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 1: that for transmission, which our interstate highway in nature, and 350 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:31,119 Speaker 1: that everybody benefits across you know, dozens of states, and 351 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:34,919 Speaker 1: we almost got a tax credit for transmission, didn't make 352 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:38,920 Speaker 1: it through. I think they are looking at alternative ways, 353 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:43,480 Speaker 1: and there's this uh conceptual agreement between Senator Schumer and 354 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 1: Senator Mansion that holds great promise and hopefully that would 355 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:50,680 Speaker 1: that would help a lot. And separately, at the regulatory level, 356 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 1: the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission has very strong jurisdiction over this, 357 00:20:56,760 --> 00:21:00,480 Speaker 1: and they have prioritized this very issue and are working 358 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:03,439 Speaker 1: on it, and thus far they've been moving forward on 359 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 1: a bipartisan basis to try to fix some of these 360 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 1: problems and get the transmission agreements together in these regional 361 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:16,200 Speaker 1: planning processes. So there there is some there's definitely some hope, 362 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:18,680 Speaker 1: and you know, maybe where there's a will, there's a way. 363 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 1: But I'm my honest scorecard of where we are sitting 364 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:26,160 Speaker 1: here today is that there hasn't been a lot that's 365 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:30,320 Speaker 1: passed that would really transform this, like I think needs 366 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 1: to happen. What would be the most helpful in terms 367 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 1: of building out the grid, like if you could see anything, 368 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:41,280 Speaker 1: whether it's I don't know, just having people be more 369 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:45,240 Speaker 1: amenable to having electricity wires strung up in their backyards, 370 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:48,399 Speaker 1: or more funding from the federal government. What would you 371 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:51,760 Speaker 1: like to see? If I had my druthers, I would say, 372 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:57,399 Speaker 1: let's get these regional and interregional processes set up to 373 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:01,760 Speaker 1: plan a robust grid for the expected future power makes, 374 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:06,639 Speaker 1: say thirty years out UM. Put together plans use as 375 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:10,639 Speaker 1: much as possible existing corridors. That example I mentioned in 376 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:14,000 Speaker 1: the Midwest, of those lines are going to be upgrades 377 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 1: over existing rights of way in corridors, so you know, yes, 378 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 1: there will be some new lines, but um, you know 379 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 1: there will doesn't need to be that much. UM. You know, 380 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 1: actual new new corridors and rights of way. UM. And 381 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 1: then importantly, those regional agreements involve who pays and how much. 382 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 1: And I really think either Congress or this Federal Energy 383 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:43,720 Speaker 1: Regulatory Commission need to put together a policy where everybody share. 384 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:47,360 Speaker 1: Everybody who benefits shares in the in the payment. Um. 385 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 1: The The economic problem here is the classic public good 386 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:55,040 Speaker 1: where if everybody benefits, uh. And you know, even if 387 00:22:55,200 --> 00:23:00,320 Speaker 1: in some individual pays a lot into this fund, everybody 388 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:02,680 Speaker 1: else benefits just as much as they do, which means 389 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 1: they don't have an incentive to do that. So there's 390 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 1: a strong disincentive to actually fund this infrastructure. So we 391 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,919 Speaker 1: need to get some kind of collective agreements together, you know, 392 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 1: in partnership with states in the region. But what I 393 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:22,400 Speaker 1: just described as a million conversations with a million entities, 394 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:24,240 Speaker 1: and all of that has to has to go well. 395 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:28,440 Speaker 1: So it's it's hard work and it's not Maybe two 396 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:31,159 Speaker 1: doesn't sound too exciting, but it really needs to happen. 397 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:35,560 Speaker 1: And if you know, Congress and Firk, the federal agency 398 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:40,480 Speaker 1: here can require that to happen, or directed or encourage 399 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 1: it than than I think, we really can get this 400 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 1: done and get a grid that's able to handle the climate, 401 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 1: clean energy goals, the new severe weather challenge of whom 402 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 1: getting as well as the coming electric electrification. You know, 403 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 1: you mentioned the idea of improving the process for longer 404 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:03,960 Speaker 1: term planning of the energy grid, and I feel like 405 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,680 Speaker 1: it's it's difficult at the best of times to get 406 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 1: people interested in fixing long term problems. But secondly, what 407 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:15,679 Speaker 1: seems to complicate this with energy specifically, is it seems 408 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 1: really difficult to predict what energy needs will be, you know, 409 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:23,639 Speaker 1: twenty or thirty years out, and it seems difficult to 410 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 1: predict what the mix should be, um, what the weather 411 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:31,400 Speaker 1: might be. When we're talking about renewables, how much confidence 412 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:35,199 Speaker 1: can we have that the grid we're designing today or 413 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 1: trying to design today is going to be the right 414 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 1: one twenty or thirty years out. Well, I think I 415 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:44,679 Speaker 1: think we should have a lot of confidence. We're using 416 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:50,359 Speaker 1: this transmission network uh at or beyond its capacity. Every 417 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:54,520 Speaker 1: decade since this thing was invented, we've relied on it 418 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 1: more and more. Electricity is all through our daily lives 419 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:01,879 Speaker 1: at home and at work. And we know for a 420 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:04,119 Speaker 1: fact that there are theys going to be the vast 421 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:07,919 Speaker 1: tracts of land amenable to very low cost wind and 422 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:11,639 Speaker 1: solar development across this country, and almost all countries in 423 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:17,440 Speaker 1: the world have that same phenomenon. And so it's not like, uh, 424 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 1: sometimes you hear, oh, we don't want to build a 425 00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 1: bridge to nowhere. Well, look, you know, I can guarantee 426 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:25,320 Speaker 1: that our great great great great grandkids will come to 427 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:28,240 Speaker 1: this spot and say, western Oklahoma and it's going to 428 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:32,199 Speaker 1: be really windy, um, you know, and uh it's you know, 429 00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:34,560 Speaker 1: and it's gonna be really sunny all through the Southwest. 430 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 1: So you know, we we know that for you know, 431 00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 1: far more certainty than we have about anything else we 432 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 1: you know, we invest in. So I think we can 433 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:46,439 Speaker 1: very solidly invest in that. I think there is a 434 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:49,639 Speaker 1: question of, you know, how much realistically are we going 435 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 1: to get done. There are a lot of people like 436 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:54,639 Speaker 1: me who would say we need to build this vast 437 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:58,440 Speaker 1: network and make it a whole nationwide, in fact, continental 438 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:02,880 Speaker 1: macro grid. And I believe that, but I also think, 439 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 1: you know, I might not want to bet my you know, 440 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:08,639 Speaker 1: kids college tuition on that happening. That's going to be 441 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 1: very hard. So I know you've had people like you've 442 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 1: had Jigger Shaw on this on this show, and you know, 443 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,000 Speaker 1: he I think believes in that, supports that, but also 444 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:21,119 Speaker 1: he does he doesn't want all of his eggs in 445 00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 1: that basket. And other things like small modular nuclear reactors 446 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:26,360 Speaker 1: that you could put on the site of a closing 447 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 1: coal plant. You know, there's hydrogen. There's a lot of 448 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:32,680 Speaker 1: other things that we can and should do as well. 449 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,480 Speaker 1: I don't want to rely on this, you know, this 450 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 1: this opportunity alone. So just you know, as long as 451 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:43,359 Speaker 1: we're talking about your sort of dream, if you could, 452 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:47,959 Speaker 1: if you could just write the policy and get it implemented. 453 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:51,480 Speaker 1: What are we talking about from a dollar perspective in 454 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 1: terms of what you think it takes to invest and 455 00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:58,240 Speaker 1: get to this more modern grid? And what do we 456 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,399 Speaker 1: talk about even in terms of physical you know, what 457 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:02,920 Speaker 1: do we talk about in terms of miles? What do 458 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,960 Speaker 1: we talk about in terms of the raw materials that 459 00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:08,200 Speaker 1: we need for the wires and the labor like give 460 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 1: us a sense of the scale of the project in 461 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 1: the ideal scenario. Sure like if Eisenhower came back, he said, 462 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:20,280 Speaker 1: all right, we built that system. Now it's time let's 463 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:23,680 Speaker 1: get this grid and our energy problem. And we want 464 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:27,119 Speaker 1: you know, domestic, home grown energy that's very affordable and 465 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:31,960 Speaker 1: reliable for everybody. Honestly, I think the current president is 466 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 1: interested in doing that to the extent he could. I 467 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:42,120 Speaker 1: would say, a two hundred billion dollar investment in a 468 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:46,760 Speaker 1: national macro grid, which would take ten years if everything 469 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 1: goes right, putting a lot of it along existing corridors, 470 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:55,000 Speaker 1: highway and rail systems, UH that would enable. That would 471 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 1: be the best two billion dollars our government could spend. 472 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,679 Speaker 1: Because energy important to our lives, reliable energy is so 473 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,280 Speaker 1: important to our lives. The climate is such a problem, 474 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:08,080 Speaker 1: and if you build a network. We have very cheap 475 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:11,840 Speaker 1: wind and solar all over the country that can utilize that, 476 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,879 Speaker 1: and we know it's going to be there. Uh. Certainly, 477 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,639 Speaker 1: there's supply chain problems in every in every sector, and 478 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,880 Speaker 1: there will be materials needed, but I think those are 479 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:25,080 Speaker 1: solvable given the materials needed needed here, and you know, 480 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:27,560 Speaker 1: certainly we can. If we do that and commit to it, 481 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 1: then we get more and more of that business in 482 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 1: manufacturs We attracted to this country put a lot of 483 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:36,000 Speaker 1: people to to work. You know, it's no surprise ib 484 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:39,640 Speaker 1: E W the Labor Union for Electrical workers, you know, 485 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:43,840 Speaker 1: loves this idea. That tremendous number of well paying jobs 486 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 1: in this and I think it would lead to the 487 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 1: lowest cost because what I said earlier about scale, scale 488 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 1: is everything in transmission. To build a bigger the dollars 489 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 1: per delivered megawater cheaper. So uh. You know, consumer advocates 490 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 1: are a very important player in this space, and I 491 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,760 Speaker 1: have a lot of conversations with them, and it's it's tough, 492 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:07,720 Speaker 1: right because what they're being asked to do is authorize 493 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 1: a big spend of rate payer dollars for something that's 494 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:15,360 Speaker 1: super long term in nature and benefits everybody across everywhere. 495 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 1: But you know, that's the way to get the cheaper 496 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:23,640 Speaker 1: power ultimately the cheapest delivered costs to the customers in 497 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 1: the long run. So I think we all need to, 498 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 1: you know, look at look at this opportunity. Certainly consider 499 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 1: you know, different scenarios and and tested out and kick 500 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:36,040 Speaker 1: the tires. But I think that's the scenario that that 501 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 1: is best for reliability and clean energy and affordability in 502 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:41,120 Speaker 1: the long run. Let me just get your take on 503 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,800 Speaker 1: a different vision because I have I see people, many 504 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:46,960 Speaker 1: of whom will interact with me on Twitter, and they say, 505 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 1: you know what, instead of building all these like wires 506 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:52,040 Speaker 1: that go all the way across the country and all 507 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:56,600 Speaker 1: these fights with like farmers and ranchers and all this stuff, 508 00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:00,480 Speaker 1: why not just build a bunch of nuclear plans locally 509 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:05,280 Speaker 1: and just have that be the silver built bullet solution. Yeah. Well, 510 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:07,440 Speaker 1: I thought you were going to go to uh rooftop 511 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:11,080 Speaker 1: TV and batteries in your garage. I was going to 512 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:16,920 Speaker 1: do batteries. Actually also the question. But you know, both 513 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:19,720 Speaker 1: other Vision camps are out, Yeah, both camps are out 514 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 1: in force on Twitter, that's for sure. Um. Look, um, 515 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:27,680 Speaker 1: you know I think there are opportunities for nuclear, particularly 516 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:31,080 Speaker 1: the small modulent nuclear, especially in that case, you know, 517 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 1: putting them at the sight of the old co plants, 518 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:35,960 Speaker 1: and it's great for the communities there, UH to keep 519 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 1: the jobs going and plants. I do think, you know, 520 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 1: it is expensive now and it is going to take 521 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:48,240 Speaker 1: quite a while to like get to commercialization and wide deployment. 522 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 1: In contrast to you know, we're doing UH wide deployment 523 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 1: of wind and solar all over the country, all over 524 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 1: the world. So really the you know, it's the renewables 525 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 1: that are the church technology. And you know, I never 526 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 1: want to say that what we have now is going 527 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:06,480 Speaker 1: to beat out everything that could come. But I also 528 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 1: don't put too many eggs in the basket of things 529 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:11,600 Speaker 1: that are not not there yet. So that's the I 530 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,480 Speaker 1: think the main nuclear answer, and heck, we're going to 531 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,040 Speaker 1: need all of it if we really want to be carbonized. 532 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 1: It's worth noting that the properties of nuclear is that 533 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 1: it can operate at all times. Some of them can 534 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:26,160 Speaker 1: be dispatchable, they can ramp up and down. That's obviously 535 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 1: very helpful. Wind and solar operate when they have their 536 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 1: power source and not when they don't uh, And so 537 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 1: you do need other resources. I don't want to necessarily 538 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,720 Speaker 1: advocate for wind and solar because then what do you 539 00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 1: do in the other times. For quite a while, we're 540 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:44,880 Speaker 1: going to be using dispatchable gas plants uh, and we 541 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:49,840 Speaker 1: may either continue that or use other clean, firm dispatchable 542 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 1: sources as they come on in the future. So it 543 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:56,160 Speaker 1: is I think more of a portfolio outlook than any 544 00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:58,760 Speaker 1: single technology. You know, it's not going to be a 545 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 1: winner take all times. Who So can you talk a 546 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:21,719 Speaker 1: little bit more about storage then, because if the issue 547 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:26,720 Speaker 1: is that we have you know, intermittent energy supply, then 548 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:31,640 Speaker 1: could we just have everyone or large population centers build 549 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:34,960 Speaker 1: giant batteries where they could store excess energy when they 550 00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:37,880 Speaker 1: have it um to make up for times when they don't, 551 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 1: rather than build multiple um long distance electricity lines. Yes 552 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:47,640 Speaker 1: in theory, yes. And what we have commercially ready and 553 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:51,920 Speaker 1: being deployed all over the country are roughly like four 554 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:55,080 Speaker 1: hour batteries, so people call them short duration batteries. It's 555 00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:57,920 Speaker 1: the same technology that's in the car with the m 556 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:01,000 Speaker 1: I on and they are very helpful. They provide provide 557 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:04,800 Speaker 1: a number of different services on the grid, and in 558 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 1: some places, like if you're in the Southwest, you can 559 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:12,600 Speaker 1: go a long way with solar and short duration batteries 560 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:16,960 Speaker 1: together because the batteries will provide your power from you know, 561 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,920 Speaker 1: say five pm through you know ten eleven on a 562 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:22,160 Speaker 1: hot day, you're still air conditioning and you're doing it 563 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:24,640 Speaker 1: with your batteries. Um. And then you know, if it's 564 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:26,440 Speaker 1: a cloudy day and you didn't get to charge as 565 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:28,680 Speaker 1: much because you didn't have as much solar, well that's okay. 566 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:31,320 Speaker 1: You probably don't need as much air conditioning on those days. 567 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:33,600 Speaker 1: So that works. It doesn't do everything, but you can 568 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:36,040 Speaker 1: do a lot other places, Like I grew up in Michigan, 569 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:39,200 Speaker 1: and there's a lot of parts of the country where 570 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:40,959 Speaker 1: you're not going to be able to do that in 571 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:44,280 Speaker 1: the in the winter for certain, And a lot of 572 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:47,400 Speaker 1: these systems are becoming more winter peaking than the old 573 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:50,920 Speaker 1: regime where uh, you know, you thought it was a 574 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,000 Speaker 1: typically a you know, late July afternoon was going to 575 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:56,200 Speaker 1: be your peak. It's going to be more of a 576 00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 1: winter situation. It's dark, it's not as sunny, and really 577 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:04,600 Speaker 1: everywhere you will have multi day periods could be six 578 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:08,520 Speaker 1: eight days with very little wind and sun. They have 579 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:11,719 Speaker 1: a word in German for that, don't go flout to 580 00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:17,400 Speaker 1: course sort of you know, dark and still time periods 581 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:18,880 Speaker 1: and then what do you do? So you have to 582 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:21,800 Speaker 1: have something else around for that, and that's where we 583 00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:26,120 Speaker 1: get into the portfolio that you need. And maybe while 584 00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:28,880 Speaker 1: on storage, you know, we might we we do have 585 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:32,160 Speaker 1: some promising interesting technologies that are longer duration and there's 586 00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 1: a tremendous amount of research and development going into that. 587 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:38,480 Speaker 1: Everybody recognizes that we want longer duration storage and if 588 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:42,040 Speaker 1: we get it, then great, that will provide tremendous value 589 00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:44,279 Speaker 1: and we can we can do a lot with that. 590 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:46,880 Speaker 1: It it's hard to see you know, that coming in 591 00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:50,480 Speaker 1: sufficient scale to sort of replace the need for moving 592 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:54,759 Speaker 1: power around geographically, but it's absolutely a promising opportunity. What 593 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:58,880 Speaker 1: about other storage technologies. When we had a jigger shot 594 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:02,880 Speaker 1: on UH a month or two ago, he talked about 595 00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:07,200 Speaker 1: hydrogen stward of salt caves too. You have the wind 596 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:10,759 Speaker 1: turbines spin in UH in the winter when there's not 597 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,920 Speaker 1: as much electricity demand from air conditioning. Also talked about 598 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:18,000 Speaker 1: you know, things like water elevators or sand elevators, other 599 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:22,880 Speaker 1: types of technologies that can maybe store, uh, potential energy 600 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:26,200 Speaker 1: long term for use when we actually need it. Yes, 601 00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:28,960 Speaker 1: there are a lot of promising opportunities. Hydrogen is really 602 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:33,680 Speaker 1: exciting and different forms of storage. And I think people 603 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,640 Speaker 1: generally in the in the business recognize what we're looking 604 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:39,000 Speaker 1: for is something that can produce when the wind and 605 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:42,200 Speaker 1: solar are not both kind of on a daily basis, 606 00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:45,920 Speaker 1: but also a sort of seasonal and annual basis for 607 00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:48,719 Speaker 1: these other time periods when you need something. And what 608 00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:51,319 Speaker 1: that means, by the way, is you don't necessarily need 609 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:55,799 Speaker 1: something that operates seven or even operates very much at all. 610 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,880 Speaker 1: You just needed as backup. If we can rely on 611 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,640 Speaker 1: wind and solar for let's say seventy or eight percent 612 00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:05,400 Speaker 1: of our energy and that's providing the carbon free energy 613 00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:09,160 Speaker 1: the megawatt hours, Uh, then what you're looking for is 614 00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:11,600 Speaker 1: the is the backup. So I think about it like 615 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:14,120 Speaker 1: our you know, we have a gas powered minivan that 616 00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:17,840 Speaker 1: sits in my driveway almost all the time, uh, and 617 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:21,319 Speaker 1: we put all our miles on the little Chevy Bolt 618 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,800 Speaker 1: ev um you know, around town. But every once in 619 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,560 Speaker 1: a while, we you know, we need to you know, 620 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:29,920 Speaker 1: put more people in the car or go along the 621 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:32,080 Speaker 1: distance or or what have you, and it's sort of 622 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:34,200 Speaker 1: there as a backup. I think we're going to have 623 00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:37,520 Speaker 1: some variety of different backup sources. There's a lot of 624 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:41,080 Speaker 1: competition for what technology is going to be that best 625 00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:43,319 Speaker 1: backup source. And that's great because we need we need 626 00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,440 Speaker 1: a lot of options, and right now we don't have 627 00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:49,320 Speaker 1: a perfect one, so we need we need more innovation 628 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,920 Speaker 1: in that area. One of the political question that comes 629 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:56,040 Speaker 1: up is, you know this idea of smart grids and okay, 630 00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:58,960 Speaker 1: if we're gonna put if we're gonna be electrifying more 631 00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:00,799 Speaker 1: things in cars at the end, then you know, you 632 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:04,520 Speaker 1: create incentives to charge your car maybe at a certain 633 00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:07,920 Speaker 1: time when there's less demand. But then that also like 634 00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:11,160 Speaker 1: raises its own set of politics questions. So we talked 635 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:13,960 Speaker 1: about the politics of land use. But then there's also like, 636 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:18,879 Speaker 1: well do people want the UH the utility nudging them 637 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:23,240 Speaker 1: or monitoring what they're using their electricity for it given time? 638 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:25,800 Speaker 1: Like perhaps some people feel it's invasive or people feel 639 00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:29,120 Speaker 1: like is a privacy violation in some way, or that 640 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:32,719 Speaker 1: maybe the UH the utility operator is just going to 641 00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:36,080 Speaker 1: unilaterally warm up their house or cool it down at 642 00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:39,400 Speaker 1: a time because they've decided you know, whatever, do you 643 00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:43,160 Speaker 1: encounter much of that? Like, how real is that sort 644 00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:48,719 Speaker 1: of impulse against grid modern modernization? Yes, that's uh, that's 645 00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:53,200 Speaker 1: also important there there there's a tremendous opportunity first of 646 00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:56,800 Speaker 1: all in the whole demand side of the equation here. Uh. 647 00:37:56,840 --> 00:38:00,520 Speaker 1: And you know that is the perfect example. If you know, 648 00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:02,920 Speaker 1: if you buy an electric vehicle, you don't have to 649 00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:05,480 Speaker 1: necessarily charge it at six pm when you pull in 650 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:09,400 Speaker 1: your driveway, because that's probably the time, certainly in the summer, 651 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:13,280 Speaker 1: where you know, everybody's coming home, plugging in, everybody's cranking 652 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:15,759 Speaker 1: up their air conditioning. If you if there were just 653 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:18,400 Speaker 1: a way to shift that charging to be you know 654 00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:22,440 Speaker 1: between midnight and four am, say, you could save a 655 00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:26,200 Speaker 1: tremendous amount on electricity infrastructure. And so how do we 656 00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:30,239 Speaker 1: put that actual retail customer in the position where they 657 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:33,520 Speaker 1: benefit from that, you know, and they trust that it's 658 00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:37,000 Speaker 1: for the benefit because, as you say, people don't people 659 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:41,239 Speaker 1: don't trust many institutions at all anymore, let alone you know, 660 00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:44,280 Speaker 1: big electric utilities. And there was a lot of pushback 661 00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:46,719 Speaker 1: to the smart meters when people thought they were you know, 662 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:50,080 Speaker 1: they were being monitored and all these sorts of privacy concerns. 663 00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:52,760 Speaker 1: But on the other hand, you know, people who buy 664 00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:56,200 Speaker 1: you know, teslas for example, where or there's you know, 665 00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:59,480 Speaker 1: different states allow a different rate plan where you you know, 666 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:01,720 Speaker 1: you come home, you just push a button and say, 667 00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:03,680 Speaker 1: you know, do you want discount power or do you 668 00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:06,440 Speaker 1: want to pay for premium power? Push a button, boom, 669 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:09,160 Speaker 1: discount power. That's all they know. They hop out of 670 00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:12,120 Speaker 1: their car, they've pushed discount power, and then they go 671 00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:14,839 Speaker 1: on their home and about their business and you know, 672 00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:17,560 Speaker 1: behind the scenes, what's happening is that battery knows to 673 00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:21,080 Speaker 1: start charging itself at midnight rather than at seven pm. 674 00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:23,399 Speaker 1: There's got to be a lot more ways to do 675 00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:26,840 Speaker 1: that that people will be comfortable with, that will trust, 676 00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:29,400 Speaker 1: and it will be to their benefit where they save money. 677 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:31,719 Speaker 1: You know, they get paid for for doing that. There 678 00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:34,239 Speaker 1: really are a lot of ways, but it goes through 679 00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:38,800 Speaker 1: this process of retail rate making, and there's always politics around, 680 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:42,360 Speaker 1: you know, the pricing and the terms of that retail 681 00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:45,279 Speaker 1: rate making. So it's you know, it's it's hard, but 682 00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:48,680 Speaker 1: we absolutely have to do more with that, and there's 683 00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:52,600 Speaker 1: a huge, a huge opportunity to do that. So we've 684 00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:55,600 Speaker 1: been talking a lot about the US for obvious reasons. 685 00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:59,280 Speaker 1: But of course America isn't the only country that's trying 686 00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:02,719 Speaker 1: to up graide um. It's electrical system and it's power grid. 687 00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:07,160 Speaker 1: And I'm thinking specifically about China, which I think is 688 00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:11,200 Speaker 1: about to start upgrading it's great or building out a 689 00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:14,680 Speaker 1: super grid I think sometime this year later this year, 690 00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:19,480 Speaker 1: and they're spending billions and billions of dollars to do it. 691 00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:22,560 Speaker 1: But when you see a massive project like that, what 692 00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:26,680 Speaker 1: sort of takeaways or lessons um would that have for 693 00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:29,840 Speaker 1: the US or you know, looking across the world, what 694 00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:33,000 Speaker 1: sort of things can we learn from the way other 695 00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:37,239 Speaker 1: countries are upgrading their electrical systems. Yes, I think there 696 00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:39,799 Speaker 1: is a lot going on around the world on that 697 00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:43,880 Speaker 1: these large connections between countries, because the physics and the 698 00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:49,319 Speaker 1: economics are pretty much the same everywhere. Okay, there's certainly exceptions, 699 00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:52,400 Speaker 1: but like those are like Hawaii. Okay, Hawaii is a 700 00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:54,840 Speaker 1: whole different situation. They're just not going to string a 701 00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:58,040 Speaker 1: line to some other place. But there's a lot of 702 00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:00,799 Speaker 1: talk about stringing a line from Morocco to England and 703 00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:05,920 Speaker 1: between different Southeast Asian countries and across China. And you 704 00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:10,000 Speaker 1: know between Ireland and other countries and all sorts of 705 00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:14,600 Speaker 1: subsede cables in the North Sea Baltic Sea. You know, 706 00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:17,440 Speaker 1: this is happening all over the world because again, the 707 00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:22,640 Speaker 1: technology opportunity and the value of remote renewable resources is 708 00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:25,880 Speaker 1: such in the know ability to move power back and 709 00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:28,160 Speaker 1: forth when you need it really is there now in 710 00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:31,520 Speaker 1: all these cases you need some type of cooperation. I 711 00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:36,000 Speaker 1: look obviously more to Europe than China. Is the government 712 00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:39,160 Speaker 1: political situations a little bit different in terms of permitting 713 00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:41,879 Speaker 1: lines and you know, figuring out who pays and all 714 00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:44,440 Speaker 1: that arguably a lot easier, which is why China is 715 00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:47,759 Speaker 1: way ahead on this whole large scale transmission agenda. But 716 00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:50,320 Speaker 1: you know, we have the government system, we have Europe 717 00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:52,920 Speaker 1: pass what it has. There are ways to do it, 718 00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:56,120 Speaker 1: just you know, requires a lot more coordination and work. 719 00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:59,720 Speaker 1: So one simple question that I don't think we've asked 720 00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:03,680 Speaker 1: yet is, Okay, the biggest are a big source of 721 00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:06,880 Speaker 1: electricity demand coming forward or new electricity demand is going 722 00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:09,520 Speaker 1: to be in cars and electric vehicles? What are we 723 00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:12,520 Speaker 1: talking about specifically, Like, you know, if we wanted to 724 00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:15,759 Speaker 1: have an all e V fleet in twenty years or 725 00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:18,560 Speaker 1: ten years or something like, what are the numbers in 726 00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:21,520 Speaker 1: terms of how much more we're gonna power we're gonna 727 00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:24,200 Speaker 1: need to have on the grid than we have today. Sure, 728 00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:28,400 Speaker 1: I would estimate in a core to a third increase 729 00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:33,640 Speaker 1: in overall power for that, which in one sense is 730 00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:36,960 Speaker 1: is huge for grid planners, But in another sense, there's 731 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:40,480 Speaker 1: a lot less than what most people expect. And the 732 00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:44,720 Speaker 1: reason for that is that, Uh, it turns out internal 733 00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:49,000 Speaker 1: combustion engines on your car are extremely inefficient. And if 734 00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:52,400 Speaker 1: you compare, even if we didn't clean up electric power 735 00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:54,239 Speaker 1: production and we just had a whole bunch of coal 736 00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:57,120 Speaker 1: plants producing all the power going to e vs would 737 00:42:57,120 --> 00:43:01,880 Speaker 1: be tremendouslyly you know, beneficial from both an environmental perspective 738 00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:03,840 Speaker 1: and a cost What are we talking about? What's the 739 00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:07,880 Speaker 1: efficiency gained by just by having a generation of power 740 00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:10,560 Speaker 1: at a at a at a power plant as opposed 741 00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:13,960 Speaker 1: to and a power plant within each car? Great question. 742 00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:15,560 Speaker 1: I don't want to give you the wrong answer, but 743 00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:17,640 Speaker 1: I'm just going to guess. You know, it's sort of 744 00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:20,839 Speaker 1: an order of magnitude, sort of tenfolds. Just you know 745 00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:23,480 Speaker 1: the fact that you're burning in this tiny little power 746 00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:27,719 Speaker 1: plant inside your car under the hood compared to a massive, uh, 747 00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:31,760 Speaker 1: you know, scaled power plant that could be a thousand 748 00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:35,359 Speaker 1: megawats in size, there are massive efficiency gains. Again, it's 749 00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:38,160 Speaker 1: all about scale and the electric industry, and you know, 750 00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:40,400 Speaker 1: it's just a lot cheaper to do things at large scale. 751 00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:43,960 Speaker 1: So again, if we were only you know, shifting from 752 00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:49,360 Speaker 1: internal combustion gasoline engines to uh, central station coal power, 753 00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:52,760 Speaker 1: we would get a lot of environmental and efficiency improvement. 754 00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:57,600 Speaker 1: But what is happening is that we're also replacing you know, 755 00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:02,080 Speaker 1: old fossil power plants with clean mainly wind and solar, 756 00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:05,359 Speaker 1: and so that that power source is getting cleaned up. 757 00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:09,680 Speaker 1: So but again those those uh that increase in electricity 758 00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:12,160 Speaker 1: demand isn't as large as a lot of people think, 759 00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:15,120 Speaker 1: just because the engines in your car are so inefficient 760 00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:17,839 Speaker 1: today and the you know, the batteries in your car 761 00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:21,120 Speaker 1: and the evs are so efficient by composed. Well, Rob 762 00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:25,640 Speaker 1: Graham like this was an extremely helpful conversation in terms 763 00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:28,719 Speaker 1: of sort of getting our heads around the scale of 764 00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:32,239 Speaker 1: the need and the opportunity and the challenge. So really 765 00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:35,879 Speaker 1: really appreciate you coming on online. Great to be here. 766 00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:39,239 Speaker 1: Enjoyed the conversation. Yeah, that was great, Thanks so much. Yeah, 767 00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:55,960 Speaker 1: that was really interesting. Well, thank you both, Tracy. I 768 00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:58,800 Speaker 1: thought that was a very helpful conversation. That last point 769 00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:03,319 Speaker 1: at the end was actually particularly interesting. That even if 770 00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:07,280 Speaker 1: you don't decarbonize the grid at all, and it makes sense, 771 00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:09,560 Speaker 1: but you know, people don't talk about it that much. Uh. 772 00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:13,279 Speaker 1: I sees are not particularly internal combustion engines are not 773 00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:19,239 Speaker 1: particularly efficient at turning fossil fuels into motion in your car, 774 00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:21,799 Speaker 1: and so the idea of like big gains just by 775 00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:26,040 Speaker 1: having the power done centrally is kind of interesting. Yeah, totally. 776 00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:28,400 Speaker 1: I mean the other thing, well, I didn't realize the 777 00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:32,440 Speaker 1: grid in the US was sort of like source agnostic, 778 00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:35,359 Speaker 1: that it doesn't really matter where the energy comes from, 779 00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:38,840 Speaker 1: and that it has to accept energy from all different 780 00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:40,840 Speaker 1: types of things. I thought that was kind of interesting. 781 00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:44,920 Speaker 1: You should set up a little coal plant with the 782 00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:47,440 Speaker 1: coal and your evasement if they if they have to 783 00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:49,480 Speaker 1: take anything, I mean there might be some other permitting 784 00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:51,160 Speaker 1: or something, I don't know, but if they have to 785 00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:54,120 Speaker 1: take anything, he's like, hey, I have some coal. I'm 786 00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:55,880 Speaker 1: setting up a little coal plant in my basis. Is 787 00:45:55,880 --> 00:46:01,080 Speaker 1: this like like small batch electricity supply, like just out 788 00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:03,160 Speaker 1: of my backyard, just burning a bunch of coal and 789 00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:06,920 Speaker 1: sending it back into the grid. Okay, people add solar 790 00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:08,879 Speaker 1: to their roofs, so why can't you do that with call? 791 00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:11,960 Speaker 1: But no, I thought that was a really interesting conversation. 792 00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:13,960 Speaker 1: And I do you know if you look at it 793 00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:18,279 Speaker 1: on the surface, um, just at the US, and you think, 794 00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:21,840 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, this seems so difficult, not just because 795 00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:24,560 Speaker 1: it's really expensive to build these power lines, but just 796 00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:27,560 Speaker 1: because you have to get so many different people and 797 00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:31,600 Speaker 1: bodies on board to do it, you know, ranging from 798 00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:37,400 Speaker 1: federal and state legislature to individual homeowners or property owners 799 00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:39,879 Speaker 1: who might not necessarily want to have lines running through 800 00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:43,520 Speaker 1: their yards or whatever. But on the other hand, you know, 801 00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:46,440 Speaker 1: if you look at the rest of the world, they're 802 00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:50,160 Speaker 1: having these same discussions. And China might be an extreme example, 803 00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:54,280 Speaker 1: because of course China is quite good at central planning 804 00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:57,839 Speaker 1: uh and and these large scale infrastructure projects. But there 805 00:46:57,880 --> 00:46:59,759 Speaker 1: are places in the world where these are getting done. 806 00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:02,000 Speaker 1: It's not impossible. And if you think about, you know, 807 00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:04,879 Speaker 1: the two things that people really need on a day 808 00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:08,000 Speaker 1: to day basis, it has to be energy and food, right, 809 00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:10,319 Speaker 1: So we should be paying attention to this and we 810 00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:13,520 Speaker 1: should be trying to build it out and improve it. Yeah. 811 00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:16,200 Speaker 1: The interesting thing though about the politics and what you 812 00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:18,440 Speaker 1: say sounds exactly right, is like, you know, you do 813 00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:23,440 Speaker 1: get conflicts in what is even the sort of environmentally 814 00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:27,399 Speaker 1: friendly solution because a lot of those people who say 815 00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:30,400 Speaker 1: voted down that new transmission line that would have brought 816 00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:34,120 Speaker 1: in hydro power from Quebec in the northeast, they argued 817 00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:36,440 Speaker 1: that they were doing something for the environment because they 818 00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:40,520 Speaker 1: didn't want you know, new uh, new towers put up 819 00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:43,640 Speaker 1: through old growth forest and areas of the state that 820 00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:46,840 Speaker 1: had never been touched. And so, you know, there's different parties. 821 00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:49,480 Speaker 1: But to Rob's point, you know, we already have we 822 00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:53,120 Speaker 1: have the federal highway system, we have rail system, and 823 00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:56,840 Speaker 1: so to the extent at which physical corridors which have 824 00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:01,920 Speaker 1: already been you know, developed for some sort of interstate used, 825 00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:04,120 Speaker 1: could also be places where we just put a lot 826 00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:07,960 Speaker 1: more lines. Obviously that sounds telling, but it does seem 827 00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:12,480 Speaker 1: like there needs to be more active effort, at least 828 00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:15,640 Speaker 1: nationally on some level to get all the stakeholders on 829 00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:19,640 Speaker 1: board and move these things along. Yeah. The one thing 830 00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:23,160 Speaker 1: I was I don't want to say not convinced by. 831 00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:24,960 Speaker 1: But the one thing I had a little bit of 832 00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:29,239 Speaker 1: reservation about was the question over long term planning of 833 00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:31,320 Speaker 1: the grid and whether or not we can be confident 834 00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:33,920 Speaker 1: that the thing we're building right now is something that 835 00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:37,759 Speaker 1: will be useful in thirty years, because I think maybe 836 00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:40,719 Speaker 1: I'm just scarred by the experience of the summer with 837 00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:43,480 Speaker 1: multiple heat waves and lots of talk about the impacts 838 00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:45,880 Speaker 1: of climate change and things. But it does seem like 839 00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:48,600 Speaker 1: there are things happening right now which we did not 840 00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:51,880 Speaker 1: anticipate twenty or thirty years ago when we were building, 841 00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:54,720 Speaker 1: for instance, a nuclear power reactor that needs a certain 842 00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:58,560 Speaker 1: amount of cool water in order to function. Right, Yeah, 843 00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:01,239 Speaker 1: but you know, probably are going to be using a 844 00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:05,240 Speaker 1: lot of electricity in the future. Yeah, Okay, Yes, that's right. Okay, 845 00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:08,800 Speaker 1: shall we leave it there, Let's leave it there. Okay. 846 00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:12,160 Speaker 1: This has been another episode of the All Thoughts Podcast. 847 00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:14,799 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me on Twitter at 848 00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:17,800 Speaker 1: Tracy Alloway, and I'm Joe Wisn't Paul. You can follow 849 00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:20,919 Speaker 1: me on Twitter at the Stalwart. Follow our guest Rob 850 00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:24,000 Speaker 1: Graham Like on Twitter. He's at Rob Graham Like DC. 851 00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:28,480 Speaker 1: Follow our producer Kerman Rodriguez at Kerman Armand and check 852 00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:32,239 Speaker 1: out all of our podcasts under the handle at podcasts. 853 00:49:32,360 --> 00:50:01,640 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening one