WEBVTT - The Girlfriends S2/E3: Lost and Found 0:00:06.519 --> 0:00:15.200 Novel. Hey listener. In this episode, we'll be talking a 0:00:15.240 --> 0:00:18.919 lot about acts of violence and murder, including serial killers. 0:00:19.239 --> 0:00:22.840 We'll be talking about grave exhumation too. We're also going 0:00:22.880 --> 0:00:24.919 to meet some of the people who freely give up 0:00:24.960 --> 0:00:28.760 their time to help bring closure to the families of missing, murdered, 0:00:28.840 --> 0:00:32.000 and unidentified people. This is the kind of work our 0:00:32.080 --> 0:00:36.159 charity partner, DNA Doe Project does. I'd encourage you to 0:00:36.240 --> 0:00:38.400 check them out if you're affected by the themes of 0:00:38.440 --> 0:00:42.320 this episode. They work with law enforcement to identify Jane 0:00:42.360 --> 0:00:45.960 and John does using genetic genealogy in the hopes of 0:00:46.040 --> 0:00:50.279 reuniting the bodies of unidentified people with their families. You 0:00:50.320 --> 0:00:54.920 can find them at DNADO project dot org. And as usual, 0:00:55.120 --> 0:00:57.760 you're probably going to hear me swearing. It's the habit 0:00:57.800 --> 0:01:07.880 of a lifetime, so there's no stopping it. Now. I 0:01:07.959 --> 0:01:11.039 want to tell you a story about an island, and 0:01:11.200 --> 0:01:15.560 unassuming mile long island in New York with the complicated 0:01:15.840 --> 0:01:23.720 buried history. Today, Heart Island is the final resting place 0:01:23.760 --> 0:01:29.319 for over one million people. It's the USA's largest public cemetery, 0:01:30.280 --> 0:01:34.039 the place where locals are buried if they're unclaimed, unidentified, 0:01:34.400 --> 0:01:37.320 or sometimes because their families just can't afford to bury 0:01:37.360 --> 0:01:42.880 them closer to home. Back in the early sixteen hundreds, 0:01:43.120 --> 0:01:46.880 this land belonged to the Soinoy nation. They were indigenous 0:01:46.880 --> 0:01:49.760 to the coastal areas of the Long Island Sound in 0:01:49.840 --> 0:01:55.880 modern day New York and Connecticut. But then the Europeans 0:01:55.960 --> 0:02:05.000 arrived and massacred the local native communities. Eventually, the Cihinoi 0:02:05.120 --> 0:02:08.840 were left with no choice. They sold Hart Island and 0:02:08.919 --> 0:02:12.320 fifty thousand acres of other land to a British physician 0:02:12.440 --> 0:02:17.560 named Thomas Pell. Since then, it's played host to a 0:02:17.560 --> 0:02:22.320 prisoner of war camp, workhouses, a yellow fever quarantine site, 0:02:22.440 --> 0:02:26.960 and a psychiatric hospital. That is until it became the 0:02:27.000 --> 0:02:34.320 public cemetery it is today, which brings us to our story, 0:02:34.919 --> 0:02:40.720 our Jane Doe, our lost sister. When you start out 0:02:40.760 --> 0:02:44.600 an investigation like ours, trying to find someone who seemingly 0:02:44.720 --> 0:02:47.760 dropped off the map decades ago, it's hard to know 0:02:47.840 --> 0:02:51.320 where to begin. You find there's a lot more stumbling 0:02:51.360 --> 0:02:55.320 around in the dark than you expected. But occasionally the 0:02:55.440 --> 0:03:01.520 stumbles will they turn up something worthwhile, Like a few 0:03:01.600 --> 0:03:05.160 months ago when my producer Anna came across a charity 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:09.200 called the Heart Island Project. They make it their mission 0:03:09.240 --> 0:03:11.880 to tell the stories of the people who are buried there. 0:03:12.440 --> 0:03:16.320 On their website, there's currently seventy five thousand, seven hundred 0:03:16.360 --> 0:03:20.800 and eighty three profiles which include everyone's basic burial information. 0:03:21.600 --> 0:03:24.440 Friends and loved ones can add anecdotes and photos to 0:03:24.480 --> 0:03:27.800 the profiles so that even in death, their loved ones 0:03:27.840 --> 0:03:32.200 can be brought to life. And that well, that's something 0:03:32.240 --> 0:03:37.120 that the girlfriends can get behind. So Anna called the 0:03:37.240 --> 0:03:40.320 charity and asked if they knew where our Jane Doe's 0:03:40.320 --> 0:03:44.120 remains could have gone after the medical examiners confirmed that 0:03:44.160 --> 0:03:45.640 she was not Gaale CAATs. 0:03:47.040 --> 0:03:50.840 If they didn't know who the torso belonged to, then 0:03:50.960 --> 0:03:54.960 it would automatically be buried on hard At because all 0:03:55.080 --> 0:03:58.800 human remains that are not released to a private funeral 0:03:58.800 --> 0:04:00.160 director are buried on Harde. 0:04:01.440 --> 0:04:04.840 Okay, so, without a doubt at some point that torso 0:04:05.400 --> 0:04:06.680 was buried on Heart Island. 0:04:07.240 --> 0:04:13.000 Yes, dear listener, I think we just found our first 0:04:13.160 --> 0:04:18.360 real lead. I'm Carol Fisher and from the teams at 0:04:18.400 --> 0:04:22.520 Novel and iHeart Podcasts, this is the girlfriend our Last 0:04:22.680 --> 0:05:00.960 Sister Episode three, Lost and Found. After Melinda, the founder 0:05:01.000 --> 0:05:03.400 of the Heart Island Project told us that our Jane 0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:06.599 Doe is more than likely on Heart Island. We asked 0:05:06.600 --> 0:05:07.479 her for some help. 0:05:08.200 --> 0:05:11.760 What I could do is go back and do a 0:05:11.880 --> 0:05:15.400 manual search for that time period in the ledgers to 0:05:15.440 --> 0:05:17.599 see if there's a torso listed. 0:05:17.720 --> 0:05:21.600 By ledgers Melinda means Heart Islands burial records. 0:05:21.960 --> 0:05:24.040 What is the time frame for the search? 0:05:24.480 --> 0:05:28.760 Literally, all we know is that it was in September 0:05:29.000 --> 0:05:31.679 ninety eight that she was identified as not Gail. 0:05:32.360 --> 0:05:35.040 It was during the lead up to Bob Berenbaum's trial 0:05:35.080 --> 0:05:38.039 for the murder of Gail Cats that the torso was 0:05:38.080 --> 0:05:41.599 confirmed not to be Gail, and so the official status 0:05:41.960 --> 0:05:43.440 was returned to Jane Doe. 0:05:44.000 --> 0:05:48.960 I would search starting September ninety eight through August two 0:05:49.000 --> 0:05:53.680 thousand and a female torso wright or black. 0:05:53.680 --> 0:05:58.840 White and watch the edge around thirty okay, obviously unknown. 0:06:01.520 --> 0:06:05.120 Melinda agreed to look into it for us. To be honest, 0:06:05.400 --> 0:06:08.840 we weren't that hopeful, but she assured Anna that if 0:06:08.880 --> 0:06:10.920 our girl was there, she'd find her. 0:06:11.520 --> 0:06:13.880 It's not that common to see it too. Are so listed? 0:06:14.720 --> 0:06:14.919 Is it? 0:06:15.000 --> 0:06:15.920 No? 0:06:15.920 --> 0:06:17.760 Now, it's not common at all. 0:06:19.760 --> 0:06:23.280 With that, Melinda starts diving into the Hart Island paperwork 0:06:23.360 --> 0:06:26.160 to see what she can uncover. It's going to take 0:06:26.200 --> 0:06:31.080 a lot of painstaking work, individually examining page after page 0:06:31.080 --> 0:06:35.760 of handwritten ledgers. It could take weeks, maybe more. So 0:06:35.920 --> 0:06:38.560 once again we're left waiting for an email to come 0:06:38.600 --> 0:06:49.159 through that could change everything. In the meantime, Anna spends 0:06:49.279 --> 0:06:52.000 night after night in the glow of her laptop screen 0:06:52.480 --> 0:06:56.080 trawling the missing person's databases for anything that could lead 0:06:56.160 --> 0:06:56.960 us to our girl. 0:07:00.520 --> 0:07:08.520 Torso New New York City nineteen eighteen nine and Identified 0:07:09.080 --> 0:07:15.960 Bodies Database me case number R eight nine five six 0:07:16.040 --> 0:07:19.080 y three. Okay, so nothing comes up on that medical 0:07:19.120 --> 0:07:23.480 examining number. Okay, fucking hell, they all look like such 0:07:23.760 --> 0:07:24.520 serial killers. 0:07:25.680 --> 0:07:26.840 Seven horrible. 0:07:27.720 --> 0:07:31.080 I'm gonna Wikipedia the State of New York nineteen eighty 0:07:31.160 --> 0:07:33.000 and female Missing Persons report. 0:07:33.360 --> 0:07:34.480 Oh this is interesting. 0:07:34.600 --> 0:07:37.640 Oh wow, one of them was found on Staten Island 0:07:37.720 --> 0:07:41.840 unidentified monitorso isn't working. 0:07:45.920 --> 0:07:50.960 And then an email from Melinda and it gets the 0:07:51.000 --> 0:07:52.880 gang together on an emergency call. 0:07:54.560 --> 0:07:55.760 Oh what. 0:07:57.080 --> 0:08:00.400 She's clearly excited, but frankly, I don't know what the 0:08:00.400 --> 0:08:03.040 fuck's going on. Tell me what it fucking says? Oh 0:08:03.040 --> 0:08:03.400 my god. 0:08:03.480 --> 0:08:03.720 Wait. 0:08:03.760 --> 0:08:07.520 Page two, Rowe twelve. Is everyone that, oh wait, I'm 0:08:07.560 --> 0:08:11.480 on the wrong page. My attached to the email or 0:08:11.560 --> 0:08:14.960 some hazy photo copies of the handwritten Heart Island ledgers. 0:08:15.360 --> 0:08:19.280 It's pages and pages of names, dates, locations of death, 0:08:19.560 --> 0:08:23.760 and burial permit numbers. And there's one entry in particular 0:08:23.800 --> 0:08:27.760 that's standing out even to me. Oh, oh my god, wait, 0:08:28.040 --> 0:08:34.240 oh my god, wait wait what Here's what it says, 0:08:34.920 --> 0:08:39.800 unknown female, age twenty, date of permit August twenty fourth, 0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:44.240 two thousand, date of death May twenty first, nineteen eighty 0:08:44.360 --> 0:08:48.120 nine on Front Street. That's exactly when and where the 0:08:48.160 --> 0:08:51.960 torso of our Jane Doe first appeared, down to the 0:08:52.040 --> 0:08:57.280 specific street and the date of permit basically when the 0:08:57.320 --> 0:09:00.439 torso was buried on Hart Island was August twenty four 0:09:00.520 --> 0:09:03.320 to two thousand, which is the same year that a 0:09:03.320 --> 0:09:07.040 certain fuckhead named Bob Berenbaum was convicted for the murder 0:09:07.080 --> 0:09:14.240 of Gailcats. Holy shit. But before we get too ahead 0:09:14.240 --> 0:09:17.480 of ourselves, Anna phones Melinda to see what she thinks. 0:09:18.040 --> 0:09:21.120 A match is a match. The date of death is correct, 0:09:21.720 --> 0:09:25.320 and the location is correct, and you know this person 0:09:25.440 --> 0:09:28.000 was unidentified. That's a match. 0:09:29.200 --> 0:09:33.240 Dare we say it that it's really our girl. After 0:09:33.280 --> 0:09:36.400 over a year's worth of investigation, it looks like we 0:09:36.520 --> 0:09:39.520 finally caught up with her. And now that we found her, 0:09:39.720 --> 0:09:44.120 we don't want to waste any more time, so we're 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:47.080 going to pay her a visit. It's time to go 0:09:47.480 --> 0:09:48.720 to Hart Island. 0:10:00.160 --> 0:10:10.600 They only allow visitors to Heart Island once a fortnight, 0:10:11.040 --> 0:10:13.719 so after finding an entry for our lost sister and 0:10:13.760 --> 0:10:16.920 the ledgers, we booked the next available slot to visit. 0:10:17.679 --> 0:10:20.920 But while we found her gravesite, our job isn't done yet. 0:10:21.440 --> 0:10:24.640 She's listed as an unknown and what we really want 0:10:24.679 --> 0:10:27.440 to know is who she is. So we call some 0:10:27.600 --> 0:10:30.800 experts to ask how we can go about identifying her. 0:10:31.240 --> 0:10:33.840 It's a simple process to do an exhumation of a 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:34.640 dough and. 0:10:34.600 --> 0:10:39.719 Then we just somebody just takes a sample and we go. 0:10:41.440 --> 0:10:44.600 This is Bob and Tracy from our friends. DNA DOE, 0:10:44.880 --> 0:10:50.040 the volunteer run organization that uses genetic genealogy to identify 0:10:50.200 --> 0:10:54.480 unknown people. In other words, they test DNA against other 0:10:54.559 --> 0:10:57.680 people that they have in their systems to build potential 0:10:57.679 --> 0:11:01.480 family trees and connect unidentify fight people with their loved ones. 0:11:02.280 --> 0:11:04.440 Now we should be able to get this kind of 0:11:04.600 --> 0:11:08.240 DNA information from the medical examiners, but as we heard 0:11:08.240 --> 0:11:13.200 in our last episode, they're not being very forthcoming. Luckily, 0:11:13.440 --> 0:11:15.760 DNA dough are the next best thing. 0:11:16.480 --> 0:11:19.720 Basically, if you're looking to draw the genealogy route, you 0:11:19.720 --> 0:11:21.920 would need to have the sample sent to a lab. 0:11:22.160 --> 0:11:24.959 They would create a profile. That profile would then be 0:11:25.000 --> 0:11:27.800 uploaded to gen match and or family Tree DNA and 0:11:27.840 --> 0:11:30.120 then try to make the identification of who that tour 0:11:30.160 --> 0:11:30.800 still belonged to. 0:11:34.480 --> 0:11:37.720 Finding our Jane Doe's family would be a dream come true. 0:11:38.320 --> 0:11:41.360 But as always, there's a catch, and. 0:11:41.320 --> 0:11:42.520 It's not really expensive. 0:11:43.320 --> 0:11:45.240 It varies with the DNA DOO project. 0:11:45.280 --> 0:11:49.120 We tend to offer some funding options for all volunteers, 0:11:49.440 --> 0:11:53.040 so we'd volunteer our services. There's also grants sometimes so 0:11:53.080 --> 0:11:57.560 there's money available. There are options where it's less expensive, 0:11:57.600 --> 0:12:01.600 but typically around five thousand. 0:12:03.480 --> 0:12:04.960 Okay, we'll go find some DNA. 0:12:05.480 --> 0:12:08.199 It's easy, right, Just go go get it. 0:12:08.280 --> 0:12:10.600 It's not that hard, right, just go get it. 0:12:18.840 --> 0:12:22.400 Shortly after the call with DNA Doe, Anna finds herself 0:12:22.440 --> 0:12:25.400 on the edge of the Bronx, standing in the freezing rain, 0:12:25.720 --> 0:12:28.640 waiting to board a ferry. Hi, Hi, how do you 0:12:28.679 --> 0:12:31.720 feeling next to her bundled up in a hat and 0:12:31.720 --> 0:12:35.000 gloves is Gail Kat's's sister, Elaine. 0:12:35.040 --> 0:12:35.760 Here's the people. 0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:40.400 Elaine spent nine years grieving beside Gail's grave when she 0:12:40.520 --> 0:12:43.560 believed the torso inside the coffin belonged to her sister. 0:12:44.160 --> 0:12:47.800 Elaine has never had the closure she deserves. Gail's body 0:12:47.880 --> 0:12:52.000 was never found and it might never be. Even all 0:12:52.080 --> 0:12:55.120 these years after our Jane Doe's torso was removed from 0:12:55.120 --> 0:12:58.520 Gail's grave, Elaine still feels a connection to this woman. 0:12:59.040 --> 0:13:02.240 It's why she's come today so she can pay her respects. 0:13:03.360 --> 0:13:06.760 Good morning to everybody, first and formal, even if this 0:13:06.880 --> 0:13:08.320 is your first, second, third trip. 0:13:08.360 --> 0:13:10.480 We would like to welcome everyone to Hart Island. 0:13:10.720 --> 0:13:12.319 We would like this worst our deepest. 0:13:12.000 --> 0:13:14.880 Condolers to you and your family, and we hope there's geperation, 0:13:15.040 --> 0:13:16.359 some sort of comfort. 0:13:16.120 --> 0:13:21.599 Or clothing together along with the clusters of families holding flowers, 0:13:21.640 --> 0:13:25.160 soft toys, and photos. Elaine and Anna board. 0:13:24.880 --> 0:13:28.480 The ferry a second submarine. 0:13:28.320 --> 0:13:31.320 On a nice summer's day. The outside deck is probably 0:13:31.360 --> 0:13:35.200 filled with people, but today, with the rough waves and 0:13:35.240 --> 0:13:42.520 biting wind, everyone is squeezed inside like sardines. The island 0:13:42.600 --> 0:13:45.800 is only a short distance away, but it's obscured from 0:13:45.920 --> 0:13:49.800 view by a thick, eerie fog. It feels sort of fitting. 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:57.559 After a fifteen minute ride, the boat suddenly jumps as 0:13:57.600 --> 0:14:04.720 it makes contact with the dock on the other side. 0:14:05.480 --> 0:14:08.480 The weather isn't much better off the boat. It's gray 0:14:08.920 --> 0:14:12.880 and could probably be described as miserable, but luckily a 0:14:13.000 --> 0:14:14.359 lane doesn't mind. 0:14:14.960 --> 0:14:20.200 I want this to have the gloom be fitting and 0:14:20.320 --> 0:14:23.960 the cemetery. Yeah, you can probably be a little cold. 0:14:30.120 --> 0:14:33.320 You're not allowed to just walk around Hart Island even 0:14:33.360 --> 0:14:36.000 if you were. It's so big and the graves are 0:14:36.080 --> 0:14:38.840 so many that you'd probably never find what you were 0:14:38.840 --> 0:14:42.640 looking for. So everyone is funneled onto a bus and 0:14:42.760 --> 0:14:47.160 dropped off at their pre book destination. The bus itself 0:14:47.240 --> 0:14:50.920 is small and crowded. Mourners sit next to each other, 0:14:51.240 --> 0:14:57.640 sharing stories of their loved ones. I think they called 0:14:57.680 --> 0:15:01.880 it Anna and Eline get off the bus. Waiting for 0:15:01.920 --> 0:15:05.000 them is Melinda Hunt from the Hart Island Project. She's 0:15:05.040 --> 0:15:06.480 agreed to show them around. 0:15:07.680 --> 0:15:08.680 You know the Transuans. 0:15:09.280 --> 0:15:12.880 They put a little yellow steak in a little shot. 0:15:15.080 --> 0:15:15.760 What's amazing. 0:15:20.240 --> 0:15:23.000 And there, just a few meters away from the bus 0:15:23.120 --> 0:15:27.480 is a small wooden marker in the ground, no tombstones, 0:15:28.080 --> 0:15:35.320 no names, no flowers. I'm not sure what we are expecting. 0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:38.360 After all this time, she really does feel like a 0:15:38.480 --> 0:15:42.200 sister to us, so finding her grave is such a 0:15:42.240 --> 0:15:51.800 significant moment. But here she's just another body stacked three 0:15:51.920 --> 0:15:55.760 deep in a plot of one hundred and fifty. It's 0:15:55.800 --> 0:15:59.440 not the ending we imagined or hoped for. It's honestly 0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:08.520 just sad. Standing at the graveside, all three women fall 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:09.360 into silence. 0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:25.240 I am ashamed to admit that I closed the door 0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:31.240 on this woman in two thousand. I didn't want to 0:16:31.280 --> 0:16:38.040 take on a new challenge, but having no closure it 0:16:38.320 --> 0:16:47.520 kills you. It is a unbearable burden. When the girlfriends, 0:16:48.720 --> 0:16:53.640 he said to me, let's identify the torso, let's identify 0:16:53.680 --> 0:16:57.320 who is she. Let's bring closure to another family. Let's 0:16:57.360 --> 0:17:02.120 open this door. I thought that was just something that 0:17:02.160 --> 0:17:03.280 I wanted to be a part of. 0:17:04.119 --> 0:17:08.080 And after a short while, the bus reappears and a 0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:10.840 guard gestures for the ladies to get back on board. 0:17:11.520 --> 0:17:14.399 And then, after all this lead up and barely a 0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:23.760 few words, it's time to go. Everyone else here knows 0:17:23.800 --> 0:17:26.520 who they're visiting, but we still have no idea whose 0:17:26.520 --> 0:17:33.439 grave that was. We don't even know her name. Anna's 0:17:33.520 --> 0:17:37.920 thoughts returned to disinturing the torso for DNA testing. There's 0:17:37.920 --> 0:17:40.480 something about having stood in front of her grave that 0:17:40.600 --> 0:17:44.919 makes the thought of exhumation no longer abstract but very real. 0:17:45.880 --> 0:17:49.720 And this reality, it's not a comfortable one, because our 0:17:49.840 --> 0:17:53.400 lost sister has already been through so much, dug up 0:17:53.480 --> 0:17:57.960 and reburied over and over. And while our intentions are 0:17:58.040 --> 0:18:01.240 genuine and good, maybe she's fine, only at peace here 0:18:01.280 --> 0:18:03.760 on this island. 0:18:04.920 --> 0:18:05.639 But can we. 0:18:05.560 --> 0:18:10.400 Really walk away, never knowing her story, never knowing her name. 0:18:13.960 --> 0:18:16.320 Just as we think we're left with no option but 0:18:16.440 --> 0:18:21.960 to disturb her once again, we get another email. It's 0:18:22.000 --> 0:18:25.200 from the New York City Department of Social Services, which 0:18:25.240 --> 0:18:30.000 manages Heart Island. They found some updated ledgers. There's been 0:18:30.040 --> 0:18:35.800 a development. They don't understand what it means. 0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:38.439 If you look at cause of death, They've put a 0:18:38.480 --> 0:18:42.959 new little entry in there which says disinterred for OCME. 0:18:43.720 --> 0:18:48.080 On August sixteenth of twenty thirteen. 0:18:48.840 --> 0:18:52.439 It says our Jane Doe's torso was disinterred once again, 0:18:52.720 --> 0:18:56.680 but this time from Heart Island. In twenty and thirteen 0:18:56.960 --> 0:19:01.000 eleven years ago. She wasn't even there when Anna and 0:19:01.080 --> 0:19:05.679 Elaine visited her grave. There's nothing on the ledger to 0:19:05.760 --> 0:19:10.720 suggest that she was ever reburied on Heart Island, So where. 0:19:10.440 --> 0:19:29.840 The fuck did she go? 0:19:35.880 --> 0:19:39.040 After learning the bombshell news that our lost sister was 0:19:39.080 --> 0:19:43.720 disinterred from Hart Island in twenty thirteen, we're back to 0:19:43.840 --> 0:19:48.560 square one again. It says on the ledger that the 0:19:48.600 --> 0:19:51.920 torso was disinterred by our old friends, the office of 0:19:51.960 --> 0:19:55.320 the Chief Medical Examiner. So we reach out once more 0:19:55.480 --> 0:19:59.359 and ask them why. But we do have a theory. 0:20:01.240 --> 0:20:04.800 When our lost sister was exhumed from Gail Katz's grave 0:20:04.880 --> 0:20:08.959 in nineteen ninety eight, they kept her DNA profile on record. 0:20:09.680 --> 0:20:12.680 This is a common practice at the medical examiners, as 0:20:12.720 --> 0:20:16.080 it means Jane and John Does can still be identified 0:20:16.160 --> 0:20:20.080 years after their cases have gone cold. So if our girl, 0:20:20.359 --> 0:20:24.680 an unknown woman, was disinterred on Hart Island, a place 0:20:24.720 --> 0:20:28.400 where unidentified bodies are buried, you have to ask yourself 0:20:28.680 --> 0:20:32.440 why you wouldn't just disinter a body unless you knew 0:20:32.480 --> 0:20:35.320 who it belonged to, or at the very least had 0:20:35.320 --> 0:20:41.159 a strong suspicion. This suggests to us that not only 0:20:41.280 --> 0:20:44.040 could she have been identified, but she could be part 0:20:44.080 --> 0:20:48.000 of a criminal investigation, which also means there could be 0:20:48.040 --> 0:20:52.800 a suspect in her murder. We've always been inclined not 0:20:52.880 --> 0:20:56.040 to center any perpetrator on this show, and we stand 0:20:56.080 --> 0:20:59.120 by that decision. But maybe if we figure out who 0:20:59.240 --> 0:21:07.000 killed our loss sister, it might lead us to her identity, 0:21:07.960 --> 0:21:10.320 which is why Anna finds herself in Brooklyn. 0:21:11.080 --> 0:21:14.520 Hi, Hi, he saw me looking lost? 0:21:14.680 --> 0:21:17.920 I was right outside a million things real quick. 0:21:18.840 --> 0:21:21.960 Anne is meeting a man called Raoul Montero, who, by 0:21:22.000 --> 0:21:25.200 the way, can put together a wonderful fruit clatter. 0:21:25.840 --> 0:21:29.919 Add a little spread. So make yourself at home whatever 0:21:29.960 --> 0:21:33.000 you need. Nice to meet you, though, it's. 0:21:32.920 --> 0:21:38.160 Nice to Raoul's part citizen sleuth, part victim's advocate. He's 0:21:38.200 --> 0:21:44.119 best known online as catch Lisk. Lisk stands for the 0:21:44.160 --> 0:21:48.159 Long Island serial killer. That name first appeared in the 0:21:48.240 --> 0:21:52.439 media in twenty eleven after the discovery of multiple sets 0:21:52.440 --> 0:21:56.240 of remains on Gilgo Beach in Long Island. Tens of 0:21:56.320 --> 0:21:59.040 murders in New York and Long Island have been connected, 0:21:59.040 --> 0:22:07.800 both officially and unofficially, to this unknown killer. When we 0:22:07.920 --> 0:22:10.159 asked our listeners to write in with your tips on 0:22:10.240 --> 0:22:13.520 how we could identify our Jane Doe. The Long Island 0:22:13.600 --> 0:22:17.359 serial Killer came up several times as a suspect worth considering, 0:22:18.320 --> 0:22:21.320 and that's why Anna has come to see Raoul, someone 0:22:21.320 --> 0:22:24.679 who's obsessed with trying to identify lisk and, as his 0:22:24.800 --> 0:22:29.640 name says, catch them. Raoul started collecting data of missing 0:22:29.720 --> 0:22:33.719 and murdered people and entering it onto a map. His 0:22:33.840 --> 0:22:38.159 investigation soon outgrew the Long Island serial Killer, though he 0:22:38.200 --> 0:22:41.440 has now logged practically every case in New York since 0:22:41.520 --> 0:22:45.440 nineteen fourteen. He even has a marker for our lost sister. 0:22:46.359 --> 0:22:49.119 It's the only database we've ever seen her list it on. 0:22:50.160 --> 0:22:56.080 I am breaking seven thousand locations that represent a person, 0:22:56.760 --> 0:22:58.520 and it's just never going to be finished. 0:22:59.200 --> 0:23:02.480 For our losses and for the nearly seven thousand other 0:23:02.520 --> 0:23:06.199 people on this map, Raoul has outlined what little is 0:23:06.280 --> 0:23:07.199 known about them. 0:23:07.800 --> 0:23:13.240 A dark red heart or a dark blue heart represent 0:23:13.400 --> 0:23:17.560 an adult male or female that their body has been 0:23:17.600 --> 0:23:21.280 found remains have been found. A dark red or a 0:23:21.359 --> 0:23:25.000 dark blue icon represent a male or a female adult 0:23:25.080 --> 0:23:26.199 that's gone missing. 0:23:26.840 --> 0:23:30.040 It's pretty impressive visually. If you want to check it out, 0:23:30.080 --> 0:23:32.000 we put a link in the episode. 0:23:31.640 --> 0:23:35.840 Description, there's also a light color blue and a light 0:23:35.920 --> 0:23:39.719 color red on both of those icons that represent miners. 0:23:40.160 --> 0:23:42.280 Raoul would be the first to admit that this has 0:23:42.359 --> 0:23:45.040 become more of an obsession one did. He finds it 0:23:45.080 --> 0:23:46.639 difficult to step away from. 0:23:47.000 --> 0:23:50.960 It's like more people on the map, more information. I 0:23:51.000 --> 0:23:53.720 can see it, I can match it, and I can 0:23:54.440 --> 0:23:55.920 feel some sort of closure. 0:23:56.400 --> 0:23:59.080 Well, I mean, maybe this is the perfect segue for 0:23:59.119 --> 0:24:00.800 me to show you some stuff that we have. 0:24:01.520 --> 0:24:04.520 About the Anna pulls out a folder of all the 0:24:04.560 --> 0:24:07.920 information we have on our Jane Dough, so the tools. 0:24:07.680 --> 0:24:08.600 I washed up. 0:24:10.480 --> 0:24:11.639 Nineteen eighty nine. 0:24:12.280 --> 0:24:15.560 We know from the. 0:24:14.680 --> 0:24:18.080 Autopsy report that they believe that the Dough had been 0:24:18.200 --> 0:24:21.959 murdered a few months prior, so that would be the 0:24:22.000 --> 0:24:27.080 time of death, with it being about February nineteen eighty nine. 0:24:27.400 --> 0:24:30.320 Anna starts listing out facts about our lost sister, like 0:24:30.359 --> 0:24:33.800 her predicted age and the condition of her body. But 0:24:33.880 --> 0:24:36.639 they zero in on where she ended up on the 0:24:36.680 --> 0:24:41.200 shore of Staten Island front Street Pier number three. This 0:24:41.240 --> 0:24:43.960 gets Roul thinking about where she came from. 0:24:44.280 --> 0:24:46.240 You know, where's that water flow at that time? 0:24:48.680 --> 0:24:51.679 If you follow the title path, it suggests that a 0:24:51.720 --> 0:24:54.399 body that washes up on that side of Staten Island 0:24:54.640 --> 0:24:58.199 could very likely have been dumped upstream towards Manhattan. 0:24:58.640 --> 0:25:01.800 These river will actually open up into the Long Island Sound, 0:25:02.240 --> 0:25:07.280 which it's the ties that really predicate where a torso 0:25:07.400 --> 0:25:07.840 might go. 0:25:08.960 --> 0:25:12.239 There are two rivers in particular running through Manhattan that 0:25:12.359 --> 0:25:16.479 naturally funnel out into Staten Island, the East River and 0:25:16.520 --> 0:25:22.600 the Hudson, So that's one lead on to the other one. 0:25:23.160 --> 0:25:29.879 The Long Island serial killer. Though his potential killings go 0:25:29.960 --> 0:25:33.960 back decades, they only garnered attention in late twenty ten. 0:25:37.400 --> 0:25:40.879 Shannon Gilbert, an escort, was out on Long Island in 0:25:40.960 --> 0:25:44.840 Oak Beach to see a client. Within a matter of 0:25:44.920 --> 0:25:49.960 hours of being in that house, she ran from there screaming. 0:25:50.840 --> 0:25:58.639 She was never seen alive again. During the ultimate search 0:25:58.760 --> 0:26:03.360 for Shannon Gilbert, the remains of ten bodies were found. 0:26:08.400 --> 0:26:10.879 Most of the bodies found along that stretch of land 0:26:10.920 --> 0:26:15.640 near Gilgo Beach and Long Island were female sex workers Jane. 0:26:15.720 --> 0:26:19.520 Those that find themselves tossed aside on some highway on 0:26:19.600 --> 0:26:24.760 Long Island, like so many other victims, were ignored for 0:26:24.800 --> 0:26:29.280 so many years because you're a minority, because you're a 0:26:29.400 --> 0:26:34.200 drug addict because you're a sex worker, and in that mix, 0:26:36.000 --> 0:26:42.160 serial killers prow. 0:26:41.840 --> 0:26:44.000 To this day, some of the victims found on the 0:26:44.040 --> 0:26:48.159 beach have never been identified, and until recently, there was 0:26:48.240 --> 0:26:53.000 no perpetrator identified either. For years, the police struggled to 0:26:53.080 --> 0:26:57.200 nail a key suspect, but that changed in twenty twenty two. 0:26:58.640 --> 0:26:59.640 Going back over. 0:26:59.480 --> 0:27:03.040 The evidence, the police zeroed in on a witness statement 0:27:03.160 --> 0:27:06.240 that describes seeing one of the victims getting into a 0:27:06.359 --> 0:27:10.520 Chevrolet Avalanche on the night of her murder. This ultimately 0:27:10.600 --> 0:27:16.040 led the authorities to one local man, Rex Hureman. Human's 0:27:16.080 --> 0:27:18.639 phone records were examined and he was found to have 0:27:18.760 --> 0:27:21.359 used burner phones to arrange meetings with some of the 0:27:21.400 --> 0:27:26.479 women whose bodies were found near Gilgo Beach. Finally, police 0:27:26.480 --> 0:27:29.679 found an old pizza box thrown away by Hereman and 0:27:29.800 --> 0:27:33.240 tested the DNA left on the crust. It matched a 0:27:33.280 --> 0:27:38.240 hare found near one of the bodies. Huerman is currently 0:27:38.280 --> 0:27:41.720 a waiting trial for four of the murders, although some 0:27:41.760 --> 0:27:45.359 suspect that he could be responsible for many more, dating 0:27:45.520 --> 0:27:47.760 all the way back to the nineteen eighties. 0:27:49.400 --> 0:27:53.000 Do you think that there's a chance that all Jane 0:27:53.000 --> 0:27:55.440 Doe could be a lift spectrum. 0:27:56.080 --> 0:27:59.040 I think there's always a chance. You look at early 0:27:59.040 --> 0:28:04.399 Liz victims who were dismembered and scattered. We look at 0:28:04.640 --> 0:28:08.199 Rex's building permits from the nineties and two thousands, and 0:28:08.240 --> 0:28:09.280 he's on Staten Island. 0:28:10.280 --> 0:28:13.800 So the Long Island serial killer sounds like a significant lead. 0:28:14.320 --> 0:28:20.240 But he's not the only one. There's another infamous serial 0:28:20.320 --> 0:28:22.919 killer that Anna wants to run by Raoul as a 0:28:22.960 --> 0:28:26.040