1 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:15,200 Speaker 1: Novel. Hey listener. In this episode, we'll be talking a 2 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:18,919 Speaker 1: lot about acts of violence and murder, including serial killers. 3 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 1: We'll be talking about grave exhumation too. We're also going 4 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:24,919 Speaker 1: to meet some of the people who freely give up 5 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 1: their time to help bring closure to the families of missing, murdered, 6 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 1: and unidentified people. This is the kind of work our 7 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:36,159 Speaker 1: charity partner, DNA Doe Project does. I'd encourage you to 8 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 1: check them out if you're affected by the themes of 9 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 1: this episode. They work with law enforcement to identify Jane 10 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 1: and John does using genetic genealogy in the hopes of 11 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:50,279 Speaker 1: reuniting the bodies of unidentified people with their families. You 12 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 1: can find them at DNADO project dot org. And as usual, 13 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 1: you're probably going to hear me swearing. It's the habit 14 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 1: of a lifetime, so there's no stopping it. Now. I 15 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:11,039 Speaker 1: want to tell you a story about an island, and 16 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:15,560 Speaker 1: unassuming mile long island in New York with the complicated 17 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 1: buried history. Today, Heart Island is the final resting place 18 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:29,319 Speaker 1: for over one million people. It's the USA's largest public cemetery, 19 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:34,039 Speaker 1: the place where locals are buried if they're unclaimed, unidentified, 20 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:37,320 Speaker 1: or sometimes because their families just can't afford to bury 21 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 1: them closer to home. Back in the early sixteen hundreds, 22 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 1: this land belonged to the Soinoy nation. They were indigenous 23 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: to the coastal areas of the Long Island Sound in 24 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:55,880 Speaker 1: modern day New York and Connecticut. But then the Europeans 25 00:01:55,960 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 1: arrived and massacred the local native communities. Eventually, the Cihinoi 26 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 1: were left with no choice. They sold Hart Island and 27 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 1: fifty thousand acres of other land to a British physician 28 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 1: named Thomas Pell. Since then, it's played host to a 29 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 1: prisoner of war camp, workhouses, a yellow fever quarantine site, 30 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:26,960 Speaker 1: and a psychiatric hospital. That is until it became the 31 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 1: public cemetery it is today, which brings us to our story, 32 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 1: our Jane Doe, our lost sister. When you start out 33 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 1: an investigation like ours, trying to find someone who seemingly 34 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 1: dropped off the map decades ago, it's hard to know 35 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: where to begin. You find there's a lot more stumbling 36 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 1: around in the dark than you expected. But occasionally the 37 00:02:55,440 --> 00:03:01,520 Speaker 1: stumbles will they turn up something worthwhile, Like a few 38 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 1: months ago when my producer Anna came across a charity 39 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 1: called the Heart Island Project. They make it their mission 40 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 1: to tell the stories of the people who are buried there. 41 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 1: On their website, there's currently seventy five thousand, seven hundred 42 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:20,800 Speaker 1: and eighty three profiles which include everyone's basic burial information. 43 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 1: Friends and loved ones can add anecdotes and photos to 44 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:27,800 Speaker 1: the profiles so that even in death, their loved ones 45 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 1: can be brought to life. And that well, that's something 46 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 1: that the girlfriends can get behind. So Anna called the 47 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 1: charity and asked if they knew where our Jane Doe's 48 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 1: remains could have gone after the medical examiners confirmed that 49 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 1: she was not Gaale CAATs. 50 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 2: If they didn't know who the torso belonged to, then 51 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 2: it would automatically be buried on hard At because all 52 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 2: human remains that are not released to a private funeral 53 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:00,160 Speaker 2: director are buried on Harde. 54 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 3: Okay, so, without a doubt at some point that torso 55 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 3: was buried on Heart Island. 56 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 1: Yes, dear listener, I think we just found our first 57 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:18,360 Speaker 1: real lead. I'm Carol Fisher and from the teams at 58 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 1: Novel and iHeart Podcasts, this is the girlfriend our Last 59 00:04:22,680 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 1: Sister Episode three, Lost and Found. After Melinda, the founder 60 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 1: of the Heart Island Project told us that our Jane 61 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:06,599 Speaker 1: Doe is more than likely on Heart Island. We asked 62 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:07,479 Speaker 1: her for some help. 63 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 2: What I could do is go back and do a 64 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 2: manual search for that time period in the ledgers to 65 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:17,599 Speaker 2: see if there's a torso listed. 66 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:21,600 Speaker 1: By ledgers Melinda means Heart Islands burial records. 67 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:24,040 Speaker 2: What is the time frame for the search? 68 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 3: Literally, all we know is that it was in September 69 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:31,679 Speaker 3: ninety eight that she was identified as not Gail. 70 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:35,040 Speaker 1: It was during the lead up to Bob Berenbaum's trial 71 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:38,039 Speaker 1: for the murder of Gail Cats that the torso was 72 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:41,599 Speaker 1: confirmed not to be Gail, and so the official status 73 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 1: was returned to Jane Doe. 74 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 2: I would search starting September ninety eight through August two 75 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 2: thousand and a female torso wright or black. 76 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:58,840 Speaker 3: White and watch the edge around thirty okay, obviously unknown. 77 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 1: Melinda agreed to look into it for us. To be honest, 78 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:08,840 Speaker 1: we weren't that hopeful, but she assured Anna that if 79 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 1: our girl was there, she'd find her. 80 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 2: It's not that common to see it too. Are so listed? 81 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:14,919 Speaker 4: Is it? 82 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:15,920 Speaker 3: No? 83 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 2: Now, it's not common at all. 84 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:23,280 Speaker 1: With that, Melinda starts diving into the Hart Island paperwork 85 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:26,160 Speaker 1: to see what she can uncover. It's going to take 86 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:31,080 Speaker 1: a lot of painstaking work, individually examining page after page 87 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 1: of handwritten ledgers. It could take weeks, maybe more. So 88 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 1: once again we're left waiting for an email to come 89 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:49,159 Speaker 1: through that could change everything. In the meantime, Anna spends 90 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 1: night after night in the glow of her laptop screen 91 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 1: trawling the missing person's databases for anything that could lead 92 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 1: us to our girl. 93 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 5: Torso New New York City nineteen eighteen nine and Identified 94 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 5: Bodies Database me case number R eight nine five six 95 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 5: y three. Okay, so nothing comes up on that medical 96 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 5: examining number. Okay, fucking hell, they all look like such 97 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 5: serial killers. 98 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 1: Seven horrible. 99 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 5: I'm gonna Wikipedia the State of New York nineteen eighty 100 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 5: and female Missing Persons report. 101 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:34,480 Speaker 6: Oh this is interesting. 102 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 7: Oh wow, one of them was found on Staten Island 103 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 7: unidentified monitorso isn't working. 104 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 1: And then an email from Melinda and it gets the 105 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 1: gang together on an emergency call. 106 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 6: Oh what. 107 00:07:57,080 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 1: She's clearly excited, but frankly, I don't know what the 108 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 1: fuck's going on. Tell me what it fucking says? Oh 109 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 1: my god. 110 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 8: Wait. 111 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 1: Page two, Rowe twelve. Is everyone that, oh wait, I'm 112 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 1: on the wrong page. My attached to the email or 113 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:14,960 Speaker 1: some hazy photo copies of the handwritten Heart Island ledgers. 114 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:19,280 Speaker 1: It's pages and pages of names, dates, locations of death, 115 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 1: and burial permit numbers. And there's one entry in particular 116 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 1: that's standing out even to me. Oh, oh my god, wait, 117 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 1: oh my god, wait wait what Here's what it says, 118 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 1: unknown female, age twenty, date of permit August twenty fourth, 119 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 1: two thousand, date of death May twenty first, nineteen eighty 120 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 1: nine on Front Street. That's exactly when and where the 121 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:51,960 Speaker 1: torso of our Jane Doe first appeared, down to the 122 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 1: specific street and the date of permit basically when the 123 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:00,439 Speaker 1: torso was buried on Hart Island was August twenty four 124 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:03,320 Speaker 1: to two thousand, which is the same year that a 125 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 1: certain fuckhead named Bob Berenbaum was convicted for the murder 126 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 1: of Gailcats. Holy shit. But before we get too ahead 127 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 1: of ourselves, Anna phones Melinda to see what she thinks. 128 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 2: A match is a match. The date of death is correct, 129 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:25,320 Speaker 2: and the location is correct, and you know this person 130 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 2: was unidentified. That's a match. 131 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 1: Dare we say it that it's really our girl. After 132 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 1: over a year's worth of investigation, it looks like we 133 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 1: finally caught up with her. And now that we found her, 134 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 1: we don't want to waste any more time, so we're 135 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:47,080 Speaker 1: going to pay her a visit. It's time to go 136 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:48,720 Speaker 1: to Hart Island. 137 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 9: They only allow visitors to Heart Island once a fortnight, 138 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:13,719 Speaker 9: so after finding an entry for our lost sister and 139 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 9: the ledgers, we booked the next available slot to visit. 140 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 1: But while we found her gravesite, our job isn't done yet. 141 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 1: She's listed as an unknown and what we really want 142 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:27,440 Speaker 1: to know is who she is. So we call some 143 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 1: experts to ask how we can go about identifying her. 144 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 1: It's a simple process to do an exhumation of a 145 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:34,640 Speaker 1: dough and. 146 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:39,719 Speaker 5: Then we just somebody just takes a sample and we go. 147 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 1: This is Bob and Tracy from our friends. DNA DOE, 148 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 1: the volunteer run organization that uses genetic genealogy to identify 149 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:54,480 Speaker 1: unknown people. In other words, they test DNA against other 150 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:57,680 Speaker 1: people that they have in their systems to build potential 151 00:10:57,679 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 1: family trees and connect unidentify fight people with their loved ones. 152 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:04,440 Speaker 1: Now we should be able to get this kind of 153 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 1: DNA information from the medical examiners, but as we heard 154 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:13,200 Speaker 1: in our last episode, they're not being very forthcoming. Luckily, 155 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 1: DNA dough are the next best thing. 156 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 10: Basically, if you're looking to draw the genealogy route, you 157 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 10: would need to have the sample sent to a lab. 158 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:24,959 Speaker 10: They would create a profile. That profile would then be 159 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 10: uploaded to gen match and or family Tree DNA and 160 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 10: then try to make the identification of who that tour 161 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 10: still belonged to. 162 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:37,720 Speaker 1: Finding our Jane Doe's family would be a dream come true. 163 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 1: But as always, there's a catch, and. 164 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 3: It's not really expensive. 165 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 1: It varies with the DNA DOO project. 166 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 10: We tend to offer some funding options for all volunteers, 167 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 10: so we'd volunteer our services. There's also grants sometimes so 168 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:57,560 Speaker 10: there's money available. There are options where it's less expensive, 169 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:01,600 Speaker 10: but typically around five thousand. 170 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:04,960 Speaker 5: Okay, we'll go find some DNA. 171 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:08,199 Speaker 1: It's easy, right, Just go go get it. 172 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 10: It's not that hard, right, just go get it. 173 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:22,400 Speaker 1: Shortly after the call with DNA Doe, Anna finds herself 174 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 1: on the edge of the Bronx, standing in the freezing rain, 175 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 1: waiting to board a ferry. Hi, Hi, how do you 176 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 1: feeling next to her bundled up in a hat and 177 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 1: gloves is Gail Kat's's sister, Elaine. 178 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 3: Here's the people. 179 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:40,400 Speaker 1: Elaine spent nine years grieving beside Gail's grave when she 180 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:43,560 Speaker 1: believed the torso inside the coffin belonged to her sister. 181 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 1: Elaine has never had the closure she deserves. Gail's body 182 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 1: was never found and it might never be. Even all 183 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 1: these years after our Jane Doe's torso was removed from 184 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 1: Gail's grave, Elaine still feels a connection to this woman. 185 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 1: It's why she's come today so she can pay her respects. 186 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 11: Good morning to everybody, first and formal, even if this 187 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:08,320 Speaker 11: is your first, second, third trip. 188 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:10,480 Speaker 2: We would like to welcome everyone to Hart Island. 189 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:12,319 Speaker 12: We would like this worst our deepest. 190 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 11: Condolers to you and your family, and we hope there's geperation, 191 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:16,359 Speaker 11: some sort of comfort. 192 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:21,599 Speaker 1: Or clothing together along with the clusters of families holding flowers, 193 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:25,160 Speaker 1: soft toys, and photos. Elaine and Anna board. 194 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 6: The ferry a second submarine. 195 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:31,320 Speaker 1: On a nice summer's day. The outside deck is probably 196 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:35,200 Speaker 1: filled with people, but today, with the rough waves and 197 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 1: biting wind, everyone is squeezed inside like sardines. The island 198 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 1: is only a short distance away, but it's obscured from 199 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 1: view by a thick, eerie fog. It feels sort of fitting. 200 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:57,559 Speaker 1: After a fifteen minute ride, the boat suddenly jumps as 201 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:04,720 Speaker 1: it makes contact with the dock on the other side. 202 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 1: The weather isn't much better off the boat. It's gray 203 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 1: and could probably be described as miserable, but luckily a 204 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:14,359 Speaker 1: lane doesn't mind. 205 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 12: I want this to have the gloom be fitting and 206 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:23,960 Speaker 12: the cemetery. Yeah, you can probably be a little cold. 207 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:33,320 Speaker 1: You're not allowed to just walk around Hart Island even 208 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 1: if you were. It's so big and the graves are 209 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 1: so many that you'd probably never find what you were 210 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:42,640 Speaker 1: looking for. So everyone is funneled onto a bus and 211 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 1: dropped off at their pre book destination. The bus itself 212 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 1: is small and crowded. Mourners sit next to each other, 213 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 1: sharing stories of their loved ones. I think they called 214 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 1: it Anna and Eline get off the bus. Waiting for 215 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 1: them is Melinda Hunt from the Hart Island Project. She's 216 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 1: agreed to show them around. 217 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 6: You know the Transuans. 218 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 2: They put a little yellow steak in a little shot. 219 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 2: What's amazing. 220 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 1: And there, just a few meters away from the bus 221 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 1: is a small wooden marker in the ground, no tombstones, 222 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 1: no names, no flowers. I'm not sure what we are expecting. 223 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 1: After all this time, she really does feel like a 224 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 1: sister to us, so finding her grave is such a 225 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 1: significant moment. But here she's just another body stacked three 226 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 1: deep in a plot of one hundred and fifty. It's 227 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 1: not the ending we imagined or hoped for. It's honestly 228 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 1: just sad. Standing at the graveside, all three women fall 229 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 1: into silence. 230 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 12: I am ashamed to admit that I closed the door 231 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 12: on this woman in two thousand. I didn't want to 232 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:38,040 Speaker 12: take on a new challenge, but having no closure it 233 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:47,520 Speaker 12: kills you. It is a unbearable burden. When the girlfriends, 234 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 12: he said to me, let's identify the torso, let's identify 235 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 12: who is she. Let's bring closure to another family. Let's 236 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 12: open this door. I thought that was just something that 237 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:03,280 Speaker 12: I wanted to be a part of. 238 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 1: And after a short while, the bus reappears and a 239 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 1: guard gestures for the ladies to get back on board. 240 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:14,399 Speaker 1: And then, after all this lead up and barely a 241 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 1: few words, it's time to go. Everyone else here knows 242 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:26,520 Speaker 1: who they're visiting, but we still have no idea whose 243 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:33,439 Speaker 1: grave that was. We don't even know her name. Anna's 244 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:37,920 Speaker 1: thoughts returned to disinturing the torso for DNA testing. There's 245 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:40,480 Speaker 1: something about having stood in front of her grave that 246 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:44,919 Speaker 1: makes the thought of exhumation no longer abstract but very real. 247 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:49,720 Speaker 1: And this reality, it's not a comfortable one, because our 248 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:53,400 Speaker 1: lost sister has already been through so much, dug up 249 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:57,960 Speaker 1: and reburied over and over. And while our intentions are 250 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 1: genuine and good, maybe she's fine, only at peace here 251 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 1: on this island. 252 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:05,639 Speaker 6: But can we. 253 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:10,400 Speaker 1: Really walk away, never knowing her story, never knowing her name. 254 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 1: Just as we think we're left with no option but 255 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 1: to disturb her once again, we get another email. It's 256 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:25,200 Speaker 1: from the New York City Department of Social Services, which 257 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 1: manages Heart Island. They found some updated ledgers. There's been 258 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 1: a development. They don't understand what it means. 259 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:38,439 Speaker 7: If you look at cause of death, They've put a 260 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:42,959 Speaker 7: new little entry in there which says disinterred for OCME. 261 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 7: On August sixteenth of twenty thirteen. 262 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:52,439 Speaker 1: It says our Jane Doe's torso was disinterred once again, 263 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:56,680 Speaker 1: but this time from Heart Island. In twenty and thirteen 264 00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 1: eleven years ago. She wasn't even there when Anna and 265 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:05,679 Speaker 1: Elaine visited her grave. There's nothing on the ledger to 266 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:10,720 Speaker 1: suggest that she was ever reburied on Heart Island, So where. 267 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 6: The fuck did she go? 268 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 1: After learning the bombshell news that our lost sister was 269 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 1: disinterred from Hart Island in twenty thirteen, we're back to 270 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 1: square one again. It says on the ledger that the 271 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:51,920 Speaker 1: torso was disinterred by our old friends, the office of 272 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 1: the Chief Medical Examiner. So we reach out once more 273 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:59,359 Speaker 1: and ask them why. But we do have a theory. 274 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 1: When our lost sister was exhumed from Gail Katz's grave 275 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:08,959 Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety eight, they kept her DNA profile on record. 276 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:12,680 Speaker 1: This is a common practice at the medical examiners, as 277 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 1: it means Jane and John Does can still be identified 278 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 1: years after their cases have gone cold. So if our girl, 279 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:24,680 Speaker 1: an unknown woman, was disinterred on Hart Island, a place 280 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:28,400 Speaker 1: where unidentified bodies are buried, you have to ask yourself 281 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:32,440 Speaker 1: why you wouldn't just disinter a body unless you knew 282 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:35,320 Speaker 1: who it belonged to, or at the very least had 283 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:41,159 Speaker 1: a strong suspicion. This suggests to us that not only 284 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 1: could she have been identified, but she could be part 285 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 1: of a criminal investigation, which also means there could be 286 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 1: a suspect in her murder. We've always been inclined not 287 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:56,040 Speaker 1: to center any perpetrator on this show, and we stand 288 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:59,120 Speaker 1: by that decision. But maybe if we figure out who 289 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 1: killed our loss sister, it might lead us to her identity, 290 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 1: which is why Anna finds herself in Brooklyn. 291 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:14,520 Speaker 8: Hi, Hi, he saw me looking lost? 292 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:17,920 Speaker 11: I was right outside a million things real quick. 293 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:21,960 Speaker 1: Anne is meeting a man called Raoul Montero, who, by 294 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,200 Speaker 1: the way, can put together a wonderful fruit clatter. 295 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:29,919 Speaker 11: Add a little spread. So make yourself at home whatever 296 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:33,000 Speaker 11: you need. Nice to meet you, though, it's. 297 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:38,160 Speaker 1: Nice to Raoul's part citizen sleuth, part victim's advocate. He's 298 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:44,119 Speaker 1: best known online as catch Lisk. Lisk stands for the 299 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:48,159 Speaker 1: Long Island serial killer. That name first appeared in the 300 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:52,439 Speaker 1: media in twenty eleven after the discovery of multiple sets 301 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 1: of remains on Gilgo Beach in Long Island. Tens of 302 00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 1: murders in New York and Long Island have been connected, 303 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:07,800 Speaker 1: both officially and unofficially, to this unknown killer. When we 304 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:10,159 Speaker 1: asked our listeners to write in with your tips on 305 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 1: how we could identify our Jane Doe. The Long Island 306 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:17,359 Speaker 1: serial Killer came up several times as a suspect worth considering, 307 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 1: and that's why Anna has come to see Raoul, someone 308 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:24,679 Speaker 1: who's obsessed with trying to identify lisk and, as his 309 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:29,640 Speaker 1: name says, catch them. Raoul started collecting data of missing 310 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:33,719 Speaker 1: and murdered people and entering it onto a map. His 311 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:38,159 Speaker 1: investigation soon outgrew the Long Island serial Killer, though he 312 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:41,440 Speaker 1: has now logged practically every case in New York since 313 00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:45,440 Speaker 1: nineteen fourteen. He even has a marker for our lost sister. 314 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:49,119 Speaker 1: It's the only database we've ever seen her list it on. 315 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 11: I am breaking seven thousand locations that represent a person, 316 00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 11: and it's just never going to be finished. 317 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:02,480 Speaker 1: For our losses and for the nearly seven thousand other 318 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:06,199 Speaker 1: people on this map, Raoul has outlined what little is 319 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:07,199 Speaker 1: known about them. 320 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:13,240 Speaker 11: A dark red heart or a dark blue heart represent 321 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 11: an adult male or female that their body has been 322 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:21,280 Speaker 11: found remains have been found. A dark red or a 323 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 11: dark blue icon represent a male or a female adult 324 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:26,199 Speaker 11: that's gone missing. 325 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 1: It's pretty impressive visually. If you want to check it out, 326 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 1: we put a link in the episode. 327 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 11: Description, there's also a light color blue and a light 328 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:39,719 Speaker 11: color red on both of those icons that represent miners. 329 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:42,280 Speaker 1: Raoul would be the first to admit that this has 330 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 1: become more of an obsession one did. He finds it 331 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:46,639 Speaker 1: difficult to step away from. 332 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:50,960 Speaker 11: It's like more people on the map, more information. I 333 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,720 Speaker 11: can see it, I can match it, and I can 334 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:55,920 Speaker 11: feel some sort of closure. 335 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 4: Well, I mean, maybe this is the perfect segue for 336 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 4: me to show you some stuff that we have. 337 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 1: About the Anna pulls out a folder of all the 338 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:07,920 Speaker 1: information we have on our Jane Dough, so the tools. 339 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 12: I washed up. 340 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:11,639 Speaker 5: Nineteen eighty nine. 341 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 7: We know from the. 342 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:18,080 Speaker 4: Autopsy report that they believe that the Dough had been 343 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,959 Speaker 4: murdered a few months prior, so that would be the 344 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 4: time of death, with it being about February nineteen eighty nine. 345 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 1: Anna starts listing out facts about our lost sister, like 346 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 1: her predicted age and the condition of her body. But 347 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,639 Speaker 1: they zero in on where she ended up on the 348 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:41,200 Speaker 1: shore of Staten Island front Street Pier number three. This 349 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:43,960 Speaker 1: gets Roul thinking about where she came from. 350 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 11: You know, where's that water flow at that time? 351 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,679 Speaker 1: If you follow the title path, it suggests that a 352 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:54,399 Speaker 1: body that washes up on that side of Staten Island 353 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:58,199 Speaker 1: could very likely have been dumped upstream towards Manhattan. 354 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 11: These river will actually open up into the Long Island Sound, 355 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 11: which it's the ties that really predicate where a torso 356 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:07,840 Speaker 11: might go. 357 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:12,239 Speaker 1: There are two rivers in particular running through Manhattan that 358 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:16,479 Speaker 1: naturally funnel out into Staten Island, the East River and 359 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 1: the Hudson, So that's one lead on to the other one. 360 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:29,879 Speaker 1: The Long Island serial killer. Though his potential killings go 361 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:33,960 Speaker 1: back decades, they only garnered attention in late twenty ten. 362 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:40,879 Speaker 11: Shannon Gilbert, an escort, was out on Long Island in 363 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:44,840 Speaker 11: Oak Beach to see a client. Within a matter of 364 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:49,960 Speaker 11: hours of being in that house, she ran from there screaming. 365 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:58,639 Speaker 11: She was never seen alive again. During the ultimate search 366 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:03,360 Speaker 11: for Shannon Gilbert, the remains of ten bodies were found. 367 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:10,879 Speaker 1: Most of the bodies found along that stretch of land 368 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:15,640 Speaker 1: near Gilgo Beach and Long Island were female sex workers Jane. 369 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:19,520 Speaker 11: Those that find themselves tossed aside on some highway on 370 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:24,760 Speaker 11: Long Island, like so many other victims, were ignored for 371 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:29,280 Speaker 11: so many years because you're a minority, because you're a 372 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:34,200 Speaker 11: drug addict because you're a sex worker, and in that mix, 373 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:42,160 Speaker 11: serial killers prow. 374 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 1: To this day, some of the victims found on the 375 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:48,159 Speaker 1: beach have never been identified, and until recently, there was 376 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:53,000 Speaker 1: no perpetrator identified either. For years, the police struggled to 377 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:57,200 Speaker 1: nail a key suspect, but that changed in twenty twenty two. 378 00:26:58,640 --> 00:26:59,640 Speaker 6: Going back over. 379 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 1: The evidence, the police zeroed in on a witness statement 380 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,240 Speaker 1: that describes seeing one of the victims getting into a 381 00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:10,520 Speaker 1: Chevrolet Avalanche on the night of her murder. This ultimately 382 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 1: led the authorities to one local man, Rex Hureman. Human's 383 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,639 Speaker 1: phone records were examined and he was found to have 384 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:21,359 Speaker 1: used burner phones to arrange meetings with some of the 385 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:26,479 Speaker 1: women whose bodies were found near Gilgo Beach. Finally, police 386 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,679 Speaker 1: found an old pizza box thrown away by Hereman and 387 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:33,240 Speaker 1: tested the DNA left on the crust. It matched a 388 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:38,240 Speaker 1: hare found near one of the bodies. Huerman is currently 389 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:41,720 Speaker 1: a waiting trial for four of the murders, although some 390 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:45,359 Speaker 1: suspect that he could be responsible for many more, dating 391 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:47,760 Speaker 1: all the way back to the nineteen eighties. 392 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 4: Do you think that there's a chance that all Jane 393 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:55,440 Speaker 4: Doe could be a lift spectrum. 394 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:59,040 Speaker 11: I think there's always a chance. You look at early 395 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:04,399 Speaker 11: Liz victims who were dismembered and scattered. We look at 396 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:08,199 Speaker 11: Rex's building permits from the nineties and two thousands, and 397 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 11: he's on Staten Island. 398 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 1: So the Long Island serial killer sounds like a significant lead. 399 00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 1: But he's not the only one. There's another infamous serial 400 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:22,919 Speaker 1: killer that Anna wants to run by Raoul as a 401 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:26,040 Speaker 1: possible suspect when that she came across in one of 402 00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:29,400 Speaker 1: her nighttime sleuthing sessions. 403 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:36,320 Speaker 8: Joel Rifkin, American serial killer who was sentenced to two 404 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 8: one hundred and three years My god in prison for 405 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 8: the murders of nine women. 406 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:44,760 Speaker 6: Oh my god. 407 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 1: When it comes to New York serial killers, Rifkin rings 408 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,400 Speaker 1: a few alarm bells for us. He admitted to killing 409 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 1: and dismembering his first victim in March of nineteen eighty nine. 410 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 1: That's not the only coincidence. 411 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,400 Speaker 4: The head and the legs were found around the time 412 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 4: of the murder, but nobody knew what happened to the. 413 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 1: Toulso, as Anna lays out the similarities between our Jane 414 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 1: Doe's case and rifkins first victim, she can see Raoul's 415 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 1: cogs turning. 416 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:20,120 Speaker 11: Do you mind if I send a text? Yeah? I 417 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:25,400 Speaker 11: might get something right away. What who do you know? 418 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,120 Speaker 1: Raoul won't give Anna a name, but he knows a 419 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:33,760 Speaker 1: detective who was involved in Joel Rifkins's case. He fires 420 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:37,320 Speaker 1: off the text, and not long after a reply comes through. 421 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 11: She did answer. 422 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 1: The detective asks for more information, so they sent her 423 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:46,360 Speaker 1: everything we have on our Jane Doe, including the Hart 424 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 1: Island ledger. When Anna leaves, Raoul promises to update her 425 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:59,440 Speaker 1: as soon as anything comes through, which thankfully doesn't take 426 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:03,680 Speaker 1: very long. Later that evening, there's a text from Raul. 427 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 1: He forwarded Anna a message from the detective responding to 428 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:11,040 Speaker 1: all the evidence we gave them and our suspicions about 429 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:22,520 Speaker 1: Joel Rifkin. They simply say, there is your answer coming 430 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:27,440 Speaker 1: up next. On the girlfriends our lost sister, he said 431 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:29,840 Speaker 1: that he could only remember her name as Susie. 432 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:34,280 Speaker 2: To his horror, Susie suddenly popped up on the couch 433 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:37,360 Speaker 2: in a last stitch effort to salvage her life. 434 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:40,120 Speaker 5: Dear Anne, I've been searching for you. 435 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:41,000 Speaker 6: For over a year. 436 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:43,680 Speaker 12: Is this going to be the person that we're looking for? 437 00:30:43,800 --> 00:31:01,520 Speaker 1: Is this the Answer. The Girlfriends Are Sister is produced 438 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:05,800 Speaker 1: by Novel for iHeart Podcasts. For more from Novel, visit 439 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 1: novel dot Audio. The show is hosted by me Carol Fisher, 440 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 1: and our chief investigator is Mindy Shapiro. To find me 441 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:18,320 Speaker 1: on social media, search Carol A. Fisher, That's Carol with 442 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:21,920 Speaker 1: an E. The season is written and produced by Anna 443 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:26,240 Speaker 1: Sinfield and Lee Meyer. Our assistant producer is Madeline Parr. 444 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:30,640 Speaker 1: The editor is Joe Wheeler. Max O'Brien is our executive producer. 445 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:35,400 Speaker 1: Our fact checker is Dania Suleiman. Production management from Shrei 446 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:39,720 Speaker 1: Houston and Charlotte woolf. Sound design, mixing and scoring by 447 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:45,840 Speaker 1: Nicholas Alexander, Additional engineering by Daniel Kempson. Music supervision by 448 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 1: Anna Sinfield and Nicholas Alexander. Original music composed and performed 449 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:55,520 Speaker 1: by Luisa Gerstein and produced by Louisa Gristin and Nicholas Alexander. 450 00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 1: The series artwork was designed by Christina Linkol. Story of 451 00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:04,240 Speaker 1: the development by Anna Sinfield. Willard Foxton is creative director 452 00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:08,960 Speaker 1: of Development. Our executive producers at iHeart Podcasts are Katrina 453 00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 1: Norvel and Nikki Etour special thanks to Ali Canter, Carrie Lieberman, 454 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:17,280 Speaker 1: and Will Pearson at iHeart Podcasts, as well as Carly 455 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:22,480 Speaker 1: Frankel and the whole team at WME and especial shout 456 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 1: out to Vince Hayward, who's my life partner in True Crime, 457 00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:28,760 Speaker 1: for taking on the role of girlfriend's confidante and lead 458 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:59,400 Speaker 1: tech support novel