1 00:00:02,640 --> 00:00:05,640 Speaker 1: In the early nineties, the crack epidemic was in full swing, 2 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:08,680 Speaker 1: and violence between rival gangs, the Red Top Crew and 3 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:12,000 Speaker 1: the Yellow Top Crew, among others, gripped Harlem and other 4 00:00:12,039 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 1: parts of the city. On June tenth, nineteen ninety three, 5 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:18,159 Speaker 1: a slender, light skinned man in his forties with a 6 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 1: gray ponytail rolled up to a building on West one 7 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:24,239 Speaker 1: hundred and thirty fifth Street and open fire, wounding fifteen 8 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:29,160 Speaker 1: year old Henry Gomez and killing eighteen year old Manny Kintero. 9 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 1: The case went cold for two years. Then two members 10 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:36,559 Speaker 1: of Yellowtop joined forces with a corrupt detective and officer 11 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 1: team to bring a close to this case in exchange 12 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:43,440 Speaker 1: for leniency in their own cases. Officer aj Molino had 13 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 1: been involved in dealing at some point himself. The detective 14 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:51,160 Speaker 1: was Mark Tebbins, the same one responsible for Danny Ringcon's 15 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 1: wrongful conviction in the bungling of another Red Top. 16 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 2: Cruse shooting in the Bronx. 17 00:00:56,880 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: These members of Yellowtop made up a story that Pablo 18 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 1: fort and As had been hired by Redtop to carry 19 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:05,759 Speaker 1: out the June tenth shooting. Then Tevins and Malino used 20 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:10,319 Speaker 1: misleading identification tactics to trick or coerce several teenage eyewitnesses 21 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 1: to build what they knew was a farcical case. The 22 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: prosecution followed suit to turn Pablo, a stocky, darker skin 23 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 1: twenty two year old with short black hair, into this slender, 24 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:26,959 Speaker 1: forty something light skin shooter with a gray ponytail. Pablo 25 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 1: spent almost twenty five years behind bars, and it took 26 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 1: nearly a decade and a half of pro bono work 27 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 1: from legal giant Paul Weiss to win his freedom. This 28 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: is Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. Welcome back to Wrongful 29 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 1: Conviction with Jason Flamm. That's me. I'm your host, and 30 00:01:57,120 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: today I want to introduce first the tourney who spent 31 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 1: thousands of hours pro bono on this case. So Dave Brown, 32 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 1: thanks for being here on the show. 33 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 3: Today, Thanks for having me Jason, and. 34 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 1: With us, of course is the person who endured this 35 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:14,959 Speaker 1: night mare that you're about to hear about and live 36 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 1: to tell the story. So now it's my great privilege 37 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:21,080 Speaker 1: to introduce you to Pablo Fernandez Babo. Thank you for 38 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: being here with us today. 39 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 4: Thank you. 40 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:26,680 Speaker 1: And this story goes back to the early nineties. Pablo, 41 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 1: you came from the Dominican Republic, right, And you ended 42 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 1: up as a teenager in Upper Manhattan at the height 43 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 1: of the crack epidemic. What was it like growing up 44 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 1: in that crazy time that we've heard so much about. 45 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 4: It was way deeferent to day crying. 46 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:46,640 Speaker 5: Every day you walking in this three, you see the 47 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:48,959 Speaker 5: house in the botto of the crack the floor. 48 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 4: You see a lot of cracking people walking in this 49 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 4: three like a son. 50 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 1: Be Gunshots could be heard regularly around the clock, not 51 00:02:56,960 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 1: just at nighttime in those days. And you had a 52 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:02,520 Speaker 1: police force that out of control as well. And Dave 53 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:05,520 Speaker 1: take us back to the original crime and how this 54 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:10,360 Speaker 1: turned into this terribly flawed case and ultimately wonwful conviction. 55 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 3: The crime in question took place on June tenth, nineteen 56 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 3: ninety three. 57 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:16,359 Speaker 2: It was a. 58 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 3: Drive by shooting where a car drives down one hundred 59 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 3: and thirty fifth Street, stops. The gunman gets out for 60 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 3: just a few seconds from the passenger side, fires several shots, 61 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 3: kills Manny Kintaro, wounds Henry Gomez, jumps back in the car, 62 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 3: and the car drives away. A number of eye witnesses 63 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 3: saw that shooting. They called in to nine one one 64 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 3: with descriptions. Some of them were interviewed by the police 65 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 3: either that evening or in the days that followed, and 66 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 3: they all described the shooter as having light skin, in 67 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 3: his thirties or forties, tall, thin build, gray or salt 68 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 3: and pepper hair pulled back in a pony tail. And 69 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 3: Pablo looked nothing like that description. In nineteen ninety three, 70 00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 3: he was twenty years old, he had short, dark hair, 71 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 3: stock built, he had never worn his hair long, much 72 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 3: less in a ponytail. And the case went cold, we believed, 73 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 3: because the police failed to follow up on leads. They 74 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 3: sent officers who didn't speak Spanish to conduct interviews in 75 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 3: the neighborhood around where the shooting took place, and they 76 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:19,919 Speaker 3: just came back and reported, well, we couldn't communicate with 77 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 3: some of the witnesses because they spoke Spanish. Wow, and 78 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 3: just we think there was no serious effort to really 79 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:26,279 Speaker 3: solve this clime. 80 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:27,839 Speaker 2: So the case goes cold. 81 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 3: Approximately two years later, NYPD officers engaged in a really 82 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 3: brazen and corrupt scheme to manufacture evidence against Pablo, faced 83 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 3: with the facts that he bore no resemblance to the 84 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 3: shooter and there was never any physical or forensics or 85 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 3: ballistic evidence that connected him to the crime, and there 86 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:52,919 Speaker 3: was absolutely no motive for him to committed the crime. 87 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 3: But let me start with the police officers who were 88 00:04:57,240 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 3: the primary. 89 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:01,640 Speaker 2: Architects of this place to falsely. 90 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:06,679 Speaker 3: Incriminate Pablo, NYPD Officer Albert Molino. He went by aj 91 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:10,119 Speaker 3: who had ties to the drug trade himself from before 92 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:14,280 Speaker 3: he went to the police academy, and also Detective Mark Tevians. 93 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 1: Our audience might remember Mark Tebans from another case that 94 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:22,039 Speaker 1: we covered recently, Danny Rincolone case, and of course all 95 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 1: the corrupt tactics that he used to make that preposterous 96 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:27,279 Speaker 1: case stick as well. 97 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 3: The corrupt and unconstitutional tactics that they used were not 98 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 3: unique to them. I mean, these were commonplaces n MIPD, 99 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 3: homicide and serious felony investigations during the early mid nineteen nineties, 100 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 3: and the way they constructed this false case was based 101 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 3: on Perger testimony. 102 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 1: At the center of this corrupt investigation were two members 103 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 1: of the Yellow Top Crew, who were rivals of the 104 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 1: Red Top Crew. Now, in those days, of course, the 105 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:00,280 Speaker 1: crews were named after the colored caps of the crack 106 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 1: files that they sold. Those Yellow Tops had two motives 107 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 1: to give up seemingly useful but false information to the police. 108 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 1: One was to help their own charges and the other 109 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 1: was to try to inflict damage on their arrivals, the 110 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 1: Red Top Crew, and these two individuals that worked with 111 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 1: Melino and Tabins were Raymond Dilly Rivera and the leader 112 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 1: of the Yellow Top Crew, whose name was Martin Chango Mehias. 113 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 3: Now Mahias was known in the streets to be a crazy, 114 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 3: violent drug dealer, and he was arrested in June of 115 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:41,000 Speaker 3: nineteen ninety four charged with three counts of murder, one 116 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 3: kind of attempted murder, and multiple drug conspiracy charges, and 117 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 3: he was facing potential life in prison, so he decided 118 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:51,040 Speaker 3: that he would cooperate with the Manhattan Die's office and 119 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 3: testify against other people to get a lighter sentence. He 120 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 3: put away dozens of people who worked for him, and 121 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 3: around that time Rivera, who was one of the chief 122 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:04,279 Speaker 3: lieutenants in the Yellow Top Crew, came into the Benhatan 123 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:07,360 Speaker 3: Die's office and he confessed that he had committed more 124 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:10,960 Speaker 3: than five hundred felonies, including assaults, robberies, and attempted murder. 125 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 3: He was never charged for any of those crimes. So 126 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 3: somehow Melino and Teppans urged these two cooperators, Mihias and Rivera, 127 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 3: to say that they knew Pablo had been hired to 128 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 3: do this shooting for the leader of the Red Top crew. 129 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 3: They said that they saw Pablo being paid money to 130 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 3: do the shooting, about twenty five hundred dollars, and one 131 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 3: of them said that after the shooting he saw Pablo 132 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 3: come back and meet with the person who had hired 133 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 3: him to do the shooting and take out a shell 134 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 3: casing and say this is the bullet that killed Kintaro. 135 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 3: They said that they knew that Pablo wore disguise like 136 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 3: a wig, or he painted his hair. 137 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:50,559 Speaker 1: And of course we would have also had to believe 138 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 1: that he had a makeup artist on hand who could 139 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 1: have changed his skin color. But you can't be stocky 140 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 1: and pretend you're skinny. That doesn't work. 141 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:00,040 Speaker 2: None of this was true. 142 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 3: And then early nineteen ninety five, detective Tevins and Officer 143 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 3: Milino found two eyewitnesses who had seen the shooting. Now, 144 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 3: when these kids saw the shooting, they were approximately thirteen 145 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 3: years old, and both of them were cousins of Manniquintaro. 146 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 3: One of them his name was Hiccliffe Rosario and the 147 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 3: other's name was George Rosario, and both of them had 148 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 3: reported seeing a light skinned shooter, you know, long gray hair, 149 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:31,560 Speaker 3: thirties or forties do the killing. But they were pressured 150 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:37,080 Speaker 3: by Melino and Tebbns to falsely identify Pablo as the shooter, 151 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 3: in part because the police just kept pointing to pictures 152 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:43,200 Speaker 3: of Pablo over and over and over saying this is 153 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 3: a shooter. The police officers lied to Hicckcliffe and George 154 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 3: Rosario and said, you know, even though he may not 155 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 3: have been the shooter, he had something to do with 156 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:52,319 Speaker 3: the crime, so. 157 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 2: You should say that he did it. 158 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 3: And if you look at the picture from Pablo's lineup, 159 00:08:56,520 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 3: they're six men and five of them are where white 160 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 3: T shirts. And Pablo was put in completely different clothes 161 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:07,319 Speaker 3: to make it easier for the witnesses to falsely incriminate him. 162 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:09,680 Speaker 3: I think this is something they had done many times before. 163 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 3: You would think that it would be incredibly difficult to 164 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:18,080 Speaker 3: frame an innocent person for murder. It almost seemed effortless 165 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:20,199 Speaker 3: for these corrupt police officers. 166 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 1: And Paba, what was it like going through this for you? 167 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 1: Did you understand what was going on. 168 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 4: And the beginning, though I thought I learned a little 169 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 4: about little, it was real for me. 170 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 5: I just have my song, my first baby, to change 171 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:38,679 Speaker 5: that life, that quiet like that that in one one second, 172 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:40,200 Speaker 5: it's real hard. 173 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 4: They have me in the Rackets Island, you know by 174 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:44,560 Speaker 4: that dying Rackets Island was. 175 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:49,240 Speaker 5: The acquisition that I have something that I know that 176 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:52,960 Speaker 5: I'm not doing man my song. 177 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:57,320 Speaker 4: Every time I see my soul in the cool it 178 00:09:57,440 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 4: was It's. 179 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:01,720 Speaker 1: It's impossible, I think for anyone who hasn't been through 180 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 1: it to imagine what you went through. I mean, you're 181 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 1: twenty years old, you're still a kid. Now you're thrust 182 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 1: into a very adult situation that you didn't cause and 183 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 1: you didn't create. And I want to just highlight one 184 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 1: of the things on the Innesis project has led to charge, 185 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:22,560 Speaker 1: among other organizations, to make videotaping of interrogations mandatory, but 186 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 1: also the photo arrays, lineup procedures, all of that, anything 187 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:31,200 Speaker 1: involving eye witnesses should also be videotaped. That's the only 188 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 1: way we can clamp down on these type of practices. 189 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:36,959 Speaker 1: And they're not always as nefarious as this one was, right, 190 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:40,320 Speaker 1: but if they're influencing the witness in any way. The 191 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 1: jury must know about that. And that brings us to 192 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 1: the trial, which was January nineteen ninety six. 193 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 3: And let me start just a few weeks before the 194 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 3: trial begins. Actually, because it appears that Melino and Teppans 195 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 3: they knew approaching the trial as was a weak case. 196 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 3: They had two cooperators obviously had motives to lie and 197 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 3: fabricate evidence, and then you had these two teenagers who 198 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:08,680 Speaker 3: have been pressured to lie, and so it looks like 199 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 3: they went out to try to bolster this case. And 200 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 3: they found two more eyewitnesses and one of them, his 201 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 3: name was Hayes's Canela. Canela recants in the mid two thousands, actually. 202 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:21,080 Speaker 2: As do the Rosarios. 203 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 3: But Canela, when he came forward, he said that he 204 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:27,120 Speaker 3: had been pressured by the police officers and they showed 205 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 3: him a picture of Pablo, not even a photo array, 206 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:32,439 Speaker 3: just a single photographic Pablo, saying this is the person 207 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:35,440 Speaker 3: who did the crime. And then they told him you 208 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 3: don't have to testify in court about the fact that 209 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 3: you saw this photo. So this witness is found two 210 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:44,439 Speaker 3: weeks before the trial, right, it's now two and a 211 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:47,479 Speaker 3: half years since he saw the murder, and he testifies 212 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 3: that he still recognizes Pablo, even though you know Pablo 213 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 3: was supposedly wearing a disguise at the time, and he 214 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 3: says he's never seen any pictures of Pablo up until then, 215 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 3: although of course, just two weeks before trial started he 216 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 3: indeed was some pictures of Pablo, but that's all covered up. 217 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 5: It's so bad because you can do nothing. You can 218 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:10,679 Speaker 5: say nothing. It's like it's somebody punching you and you 219 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 5: can do nothing. Everything was lying. 220 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 1: So Pablo, when the jury came back, what was that 221 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 1: moment like. 222 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:19,480 Speaker 4: When you told me that I'm guilty? Oh man, I 223 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:20,559 Speaker 4: thought I want to die. 224 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 5: I feel my bie, like like I hold in one 225 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:26,480 Speaker 5: thousand pounds my back and look you back to see 226 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 5: my family. All my family was crying. I was crying. 227 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 5: I was crying. I can't hold it. When you know 228 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:37,720 Speaker 5: that you hemasy and they find you guilty or something 229 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:41,480 Speaker 5: that you want to confront twenty five years, it's crazy. 230 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 5: I lost my family, love my song, I love everybody. 231 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:59,080 Speaker 1: This episode is underwritten by the AIG Pro Bono program. 232 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 1: AIG is a leading global insurance company, and for over 233 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:06,840 Speaker 1: a decade, the AIG pro bono program has provided thousands 234 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:09,960 Speaker 1: of hours of free legal services and other support to 235 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 1: nonprofit organizations and individuals most in need. More recently, the 236 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 1: program added criminal and social justice reform as a key 237 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:19,560 Speaker 1: pillar of its mission. 238 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 3: The case against Pablo really began to fall apart just 239 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:31,200 Speaker 3: a few days after the trial when the DA's office 240 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 3: came to Pablo's trial council and said, we've had to 241 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:38,839 Speaker 3: arrest Officer aj Malino because we discovered that he was 242 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 3: under investigation by the New York State Troopers for dealing 243 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 3: large amounts of cocaine to. 244 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 2: Undercover cops a few years prior, right. 245 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 3: Before he went into the police academy, and for some 246 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:55,320 Speaker 3: reason that investigation stalled, but it was reopened during the trial. 247 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:59,680 Speaker 3: Alino is arrested right after the trial, but the DA's 248 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 3: office never follows up to prosecute him, and after about 249 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 3: five years the case is dismissed for failure to prosecute. Now, 250 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:10,599 Speaker 3: it's my theory that somebody who's dealing large amounts of 251 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 3: drugs and it goes into the police academy does not 252 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 3: stop after they've become a police officer, and we'll see 253 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 3: what comes to bite in Pablo's civil case. But I 254 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 3: think this was likely a corrupt officer through and through again. 255 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 3: We know during this time there were other officers in 256 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 3: UPTAH Manhattan who were dealing drugs themselves, providing protection to 257 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 3: drug dealers, robbing drug dealers, and signed the drugs themselves. 258 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 3: And you know, Melino certainly seems to fit that pattern. 259 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, and one would think that that would cause an 260 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 1: immediate reopening of the case or retrial or something. But 261 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 1: of course we know that it took the most twenty 262 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:50,040 Speaker 1: five years for this to be resolved, and thousands of 263 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 1: hours of pro bono legal work from you and your 264 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 1: team at Paul Weiss. You know, it's one of the 265 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 1: things that gives me hope, just the fact that there 266 00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 1: are people like you and firms like Paul Weiss and 267 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 1: so many others that provide almost limitless resources of human 268 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 1: talent to help someone like Pablo get out of what 269 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 1: is almost impossible. 270 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 2: Morassed, Dave, you. 271 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 1: Didn't get involved to two thousand and five, but talk 272 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 1: to us about this crazy appellate process. 273 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 3: The next major event occurs in two thousand and two. 274 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 3: Hicclab and George Rosaria both recanted their trial testimony. And 275 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 3: they met with a lawyer who was representing Pablo at 276 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:32,840 Speaker 3: the time, and they provided sworn testimony stating that Malino 277 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 3: and others had pressured them to falsely identify Pablo as 278 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 3: the shooter. That Hicclo stated that he was positive that 279 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 3: Pablo had not shot Caintaro. George said that he never 280 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 3: would have identified Pablo as the shooter if he had 281 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 3: not been told by the police that Pablo was involved, 282 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 3: and that he had been pressured to identify Pablo after 283 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:52,239 Speaker 3: being shown. 284 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 4: Pablo's picture again. 285 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 3: The appellate courts did not consider this evidence enough. 286 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 2: To free Publo. 287 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 3: The next year, in two thousand and three, Henry Gomez 288 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 3: so the second victim of the shooting. He provided sworn 289 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 3: testimony that Pablo was not the man who shot him 290 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 3: and didn't look like the shooter. That is not enough either. Now, 291 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 3: in two thousand and five, my law firm got involved. 292 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 1: Paul Wise, what are the top law firms not in 293 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 1: the city in the world, comes in, you know, to 294 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 1: the rescue. How did his case land on your radar? 295 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 3: Now we do a lot of pro bono work at 296 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 3: Paul Weis, including criminal defense work, criminal justice reform work. 297 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 3: But as your question indicated, you know why, of all 298 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 3: of the thousands and thousands of criminal defendants in the 299 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 3: New York State system, how do we get involved in 300 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 3: Paplo's case. 301 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 2: Well, there was a Yale. 302 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 3: Law student named Andrew Goldstein who, because of a program 303 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 3: at Yale Law School, became aware of this case. And 304 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 3: then he came to Paul Weise for our summer associate program, 305 00:16:58,600 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 3: which lasts about eight. 306 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 2: To ten weeks. 307 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 3: And when he came in, he said, can I get 308 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 3: some support from Paul Whise to help me on Pablo's case? 309 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:07,160 Speaker 2: And we said sure. 310 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 3: We thought this was going to be something that we 311 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:15,159 Speaker 3: helped Andrew Goldstein with for a summer. Well, that summer 312 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 3: lasted fourteen years. Andrew ended up coming to the firm 313 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:23,199 Speaker 3: as an associate where he worked on the case, and 314 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:25,879 Speaker 3: then he left us after about four or five years, 315 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 3: and he became a prosecutor in the US Attorney's Office 316 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 3: in the Southern District, and he went on to work 317 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:34,359 Speaker 3: on Bob Moller's team a few years ago and is 318 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:38,879 Speaker 3: now back in private practice and just so overjoyed that 319 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 3: the case that he brought in as a law student 320 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 3: ended with such a great result, even though it took 321 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 3: to such a long time for justice to be delivered. 322 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:51,560 Speaker 1: What did it mean to you when Dave and his 323 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 1: team first got involved with your case and to have 324 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 1: their support, And how did that feel? 325 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 5: The lawyer that I have so d even the thing came, 326 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:04,640 Speaker 5: they told me, listen, you look, you got the best 327 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 5: loyal United States and maybe in the war you got 328 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 5: one of the best loyal And I was so happy, 329 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:14,919 Speaker 5: my family too, because you know, I woant to be 330 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:16,200 Speaker 5: in the best hang. 331 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:19,720 Speaker 4: That I can be. That's that's the only way I 332 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:20,520 Speaker 4: came home. 333 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 1: And I want to get to that, you know, the 334 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:25,919 Speaker 1: good part, your freedom. So let's go right back to 335 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:29,680 Speaker 1: that post conviction history. In two thousand and five, Paul 336 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:32,959 Speaker 1: Weisse took the case, and then there was another recantation. 337 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 3: In twenty ten, ten Haines's Canela recants, and again that 338 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:43,360 Speaker 3: motion is denied. One of the reasons that the New 339 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:47,399 Speaker 3: York State judge said that this witness was not to 340 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:50,160 Speaker 3: be believed is because he said, well, he was trying 341 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:54,159 Speaker 3: too hard to be convincing when he recanted, which is 342 00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:59,440 Speaker 3: just such a ridiculous and bizarre thing to say. And 343 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 3: with lost in all the state court appeals, in the 344 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 3: Federal District Court, and now we're going up to the 345 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 3: Federal Appeals Court, and we knew that if we lost, 346 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:12,119 Speaker 3: it was over. We would have only had the ability 347 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:15,399 Speaker 3: to appeal to the Supreme Court, and there was almost 348 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:17,800 Speaker 3: a zero chance that they would ever have taken this case. 349 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:23,439 Speaker 3: So this was really our last stop. And this is 350 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 3: really a case that shows you the value of perseverance. 351 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:31,200 Speaker 1: Well, it certainly does, because in February of twenty nineteen, 352 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:34,400 Speaker 1: the US Court of Appeals for the Second District finally 353 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 1: overturned the conviction, ruling that it was unconstitutional and citing 354 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:42,359 Speaker 1: the state court's denial as a quote unquote unreasonable determination 355 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:46,400 Speaker 1: on the grounds that Canela was and again I'm quoting here, 356 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:50,639 Speaker 1: trying too hard to be convincing end quote. So now 357 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:55,439 Speaker 1: the conviction is overturned, but the indictment still stands because 358 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:59,119 Speaker 1: there's no statute of limitations on murder, and the DA 359 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:02,399 Speaker 1: comes in you with the deal right to go free 360 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 1: immediately if you plead guilty to manslaughter. But yet on 361 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:10,160 Speaker 1: the other hand, they could still retry you. You had 362 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:13,480 Speaker 1: twenty five to life, so parole was just around the corner. 363 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 1: But there's no guarantee you there either, because who knows, 364 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:20,360 Speaker 1: Like if you wouldn't have admitted guilt, if you had 365 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:23,520 Speaker 1: refused the deal, you might still be sitting in prison today. 366 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:26,560 Speaker 5: I understand, but it's never passed from my mind to 367 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 5: take any deal with him. From the beginning, I will 368 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 5: fire for my freedom. So after all this, jed walking 369 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:37,919 Speaker 5: in MKA and try to be free to prove my 370 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 5: ino say, I'm not going to take nothing for these 371 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 5: people nothing. 372 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:54,680 Speaker 1: You know. 373 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:57,199 Speaker 3: At first, we have the defense team thought there's no 374 00:20:57,240 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 3: way the DA's office is going to retry this case. 375 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:04,360 Speaker 3: The hicclerf Rosario has recanted, George Rosario has recanted, Jesu's 376 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 3: Canella has recanted. We learned that Rivera was a quadriplegic 377 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:13,920 Speaker 3: and gravely ill, not even able to speak, and then 378 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 3: Mihias was a drug dealer who had served a significant 379 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:21,439 Speaker 3: amount of time in prison. And there's absolutely no case left. 380 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:26,680 Speaker 3: And so during the spring of twenty nineteen, the DA's 381 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:30,920 Speaker 3: office was making one disclosure after another to us that 382 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 3: showed that the case was even worse than we had known. 383 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 3: But we contacted Martin Maheis and he made some incredible 384 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 3: exclosures to us. He told our investigator, you know, when 385 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 3: I was cooperating with the police, I was supposed to 386 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 3: go back to the Rikers Island after I testified, or 387 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:50,679 Speaker 3: after I met. 388 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 2: With the DIA's office. 389 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:55,959 Speaker 3: But Melino and Tevins would take me all around the city. 390 00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 3: We would go to Dallas barbecue, we would get drunk. 391 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:04,359 Speaker 3: They would take me to visit girlfriends, take me shopping. 392 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:07,919 Speaker 3: I was drinking a lot at the time. I was 393 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 3: drunk when I testified. I viewed Tevins as a friend, 394 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 3: basically indicating that he would have done anything to please 395 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 3: the police. He also said the police had given him 396 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 3: marijuana to sell in prison. I mean, this was just 397 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 3: amazing to us. And we got similar disclosures from the 398 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:35,360 Speaker 3: Manhattan Die's office about Mihias in July of twenty nineteen. 399 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 3: Information to show that Mihias said, I'm not going to 400 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:41,920 Speaker 3: testify for you again. The police told me to lie 401 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:44,159 Speaker 3: in the trial in nineteen ninety six. I'm not going 402 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 3: to testify again. So then we learned just some shocking 403 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 3: information about Raymond Rivera. Raymond Rivera said that he saw 404 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:59,680 Speaker 3: Pablo two days before the murder and that he witnessed 405 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:04,119 Speaker 3: Pop being hired to shoot Canterero. Now, at this time, 406 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:07,640 Speaker 3: according to what the DA's office disclosed to US, Rivera 407 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:11,040 Speaker 3: could not have been in Upper Manhattan witnessing Pablo or 408 00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:14,920 Speaker 3: anybody else being paid to do this murder because during 409 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:20,720 Speaker 3: this time, Rivera was actually incarcerated in state prison more 410 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:24,360 Speaker 3: than three hundred miles away from New York City, and 411 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:28,760 Speaker 3: that meant that his testimony was just outright pergury. He 412 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 3: could not have been in New York he could now 413 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 3: have been in Manhattan. They were prison records, new York 414 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:36,119 Speaker 3: state records that showed that he was incarcerated at the time, 415 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:41,880 Speaker 3: And when these disclosures came out, the DA's office decided 416 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:46,400 Speaker 3: to stop fighting the case, and Pablo was first released 417 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:51,159 Speaker 3: on bail in August of twenty nineteen, and then in 418 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 3: September of twenty nineteen, the DA's office asked the trial 419 00:23:55,840 --> 00:24:00,880 Speaker 3: court to dismiss the case against Pablo. In September twenty nineteen, 420 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 3: two days before his birthday, Pablo walked out of Manhattan 421 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:07,640 Speaker 3: Criminal Court. Finally a freeman. 422 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:11,400 Speaker 1: The day that you've been waiting for for twenty five 423 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:15,679 Speaker 1: years has finally come. You're innocent, Your lawyers know you're innocent. 424 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:17,879 Speaker 1: The whole time, your family, You're innocent the whole time. 425 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:21,119 Speaker 1: Now everyone knows, the court has said it. What was 426 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:25,440 Speaker 1: that moment like when you were finally declared actually innocent 427 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:26,440 Speaker 1: and set free? 428 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 5: Wow, it was amazing day. It was It was my 429 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:35,679 Speaker 5: day every day. I was thinking in that day, and 430 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 5: I know that one day going to come. 431 00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:39,440 Speaker 4: That was the date. 432 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:44,400 Speaker 5: I was so happy that the through came out. 433 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:45,440 Speaker 4: And that I was rep free. 434 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 5: But in the same way, I feel a little bad. 435 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:52,440 Speaker 5: My fatherly passed away when I was in jail twenty fourteen. 436 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:58,120 Speaker 5: And one other thing that I want to is to 437 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 5: see my family or in my father, they see my freedom, 438 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 5: they see me out or my father know how the 439 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 5: opportunity to see me. He knows that I'm from the beginning, 440 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:13,240 Speaker 5: so I can show him, you know, my freedom. I 441 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:16,480 Speaker 5: feel happy that I'm free, pro in the same in 442 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 5: the same time, I feel little. 443 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:21,679 Speaker 4: I don't know how to say, but I'm. 444 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 5: Feeling my father in my in my hall, that I 445 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:26,680 Speaker 5: can see him, that I can hold him, you know, 446 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 5: and show him I'm here with you again. 447 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:34,520 Speaker 1: The good news is your home now You're never going back. 448 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 1: And Pablo, I have to ask how I mean people 449 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:42,160 Speaker 1: out here in the free world, trying to find love, 450 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:47,480 Speaker 1: going everywhere, looking online, on here, on there, going out, 451 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:50,719 Speaker 1: and you found love from behind the walls of prison. 452 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:54,080 Speaker 1: I mean, you're a charming guy. But still, that's amazing. 453 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:58,680 Speaker 5: Can you explain we know each other from outside before 454 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 5: I get out that when I get told in jail 455 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 5: a friend of mine, he was my wife Tania best friend. Broadly, 456 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:10,520 Speaker 5: we see that we from the same Abia, and we 457 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:14,439 Speaker 5: started talking about people. And when I'm mentioning Manitania, so 458 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:18,440 Speaker 5: he said, listen, my sister is Tanya's friend. So the 459 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:21,639 Speaker 5: same day he called so his sister that I was here, 460 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 5: and next day I got a visit Fontania. Since the 461 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:30,879 Speaker 5: that day we're together. That happened two thousand and three. See, 462 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 5: I missed one busy, she allways come to see me. 463 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:38,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you two got married. She I mean, it's amazing. Really, 464 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:42,239 Speaker 1: she's stuck by you the whole way. It's beautiful and 465 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:46,159 Speaker 1: it's just gotta feel amazing. And I know I speak 466 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:48,720 Speaker 1: for so many others, all of us here at Ronful 467 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:51,959 Speaker 1: Conviction and everyone in your in your very wide circle. 468 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:55,440 Speaker 1: Now when I say that we wish you to all 469 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:59,879 Speaker 1: the best, that life has to offer any other news. 470 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 4: Now I got a new soul, now come out. 471 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 1: Ah, great stuff. Congratulations to you both. So I mean, 472 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 1: there's really nowhere left to go after that. So let's 473 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 1: just end on a high note here and go straight 474 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 1: to closing arguments, which is of course a segment on 475 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:20,879 Speaker 1: the show, my favorite segment when I thank both of you, 476 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 1: each of you for being here, and then I shut 477 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:27,760 Speaker 1: my microphone off, just kick back and listen as I 478 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:30,560 Speaker 1: hear whatever you want to say, whatever you want to 479 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:33,680 Speaker 1: talk about it. Let's start with David first and leave 480 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:34,919 Speaker 1: you Pablo for last. 481 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,239 Speaker 3: Thanks Jason. I just want to say that it was 482 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 3: such an honor and a privilege to represent Pablo, to 483 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 3: fight for him to meet his family, his mother, his sisters, 484 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:51,879 Speaker 3: other members of his family, his wife Tanya, who is 485 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:57,399 Speaker 3: just such a lovely, impressive woman. I'm just so happy 486 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 3: for Pablo and Tanya that even though Pop in twenty 487 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:04,200 Speaker 3: four years in prison and fourteen fifteen years of their marriage, 488 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:07,879 Speaker 3: Pablo was incarcerated, now that they get a chance to 489 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:12,359 Speaker 3: be together and to have a child together, and they 490 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:14,720 Speaker 3: have two other children and this will be a third, 491 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,399 Speaker 3: and this is just really wonderful as I said before, 492 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 3: it's just so rewarding to. 493 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:21,560 Speaker 2: Do this type of work. 494 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 3: I would urge every lawyer I know to try to 495 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:25,440 Speaker 3: get involved in. 496 00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:26,960 Speaker 2: Criminal justice reform work. 497 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 3: It doesn't have to be an innocent case, but there's 498 00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:33,680 Speaker 3: so much work that needs to be done around criminal 499 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 3: justice reform, and especially if you are at a large 500 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,360 Speaker 3: firm like Ballwise, there's so many resources that you can 501 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,280 Speaker 3: bring to bear, and there's so many wrongs that need 502 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 3: to be righted, especially in the New York. 503 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 2: Criminal justice system. 504 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 3: There have been a lot of cases that NYPD has 505 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 3: been involved in. It had terrible, unjust tragic results, and 506 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:56,960 Speaker 3: these cases can also be a lot of fun. It 507 00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 3: is fun to be on the right side of his 508 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 3: tree and on the right side of justice, and it's 509 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 3: energizing in the morning to get up and know that 510 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:09,880 Speaker 3: you're fighting for an anescent person. 511 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 4: I want to say thank you. 512 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 5: I feel so grateful for Wise, everybody that's working in 513 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 5: the case. 514 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:21,560 Speaker 4: That's the only reason they know I'm innocying. They do 515 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 4: the best. 516 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:26,640 Speaker 5: Yes, they made my dream through, they made my freedom 517 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 5: or my family happy. Now I enjoyed my song because 518 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 5: then and everything, because you know, I feel so happy 519 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:39,479 Speaker 5: for them. And grateful my family too, like we can 520 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 5: like family, My family feel like there is my family. 521 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:43,680 Speaker 4: I feel like they're my family. 522 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:48,160 Speaker 5: And thank you forming the program to make that through 523 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:50,560 Speaker 5: come out. You know, I know it's so many people 524 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:55,200 Speaker 5: like me, innocent people. They know how the opportunity that 525 00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 5: I have is Bray Mahat. 526 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 1: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you 527 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,800 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. It really helps. And I'm a proud 528 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 1: donor to the Innocence Project and I really hope you'll 529 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:14,920 Speaker 1: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping 530 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:18,600 Speaker 1: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot 531 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,720 Speaker 1: org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd 532 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:24,840 Speaker 1: like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. 533 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,479 Speaker 1: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR 534 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:30,560 Speaker 1: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on 535 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:35,360 Speaker 1: Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. 536 00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:38,800 Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flahm is a production of Lava 537 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one