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Speaker 1: or at Pushkin dot Fm. I think of my role
Speaker 1: as a curator as a kind of interlocutor between artists,
Speaker 1: their objects, and the audience. That's Belma Golden, the director
Speaker 1: and chief curator of the Studio Museum in Harlem. She's
Speaker 1: been at the helm of hundreds of exhibits, and throughout
Speaker 1: her decades long career, Golden has been committed to the
Speaker 1: work of artists of African descent. I think of the
Speaker 1: exhibition as what surfaces to the public, but the work
Speaker 1: has been what it means to be in collaboration, what
Speaker 1: it means to be in communion with artists. Golden sees
Speaker 1: art as essential to community and to culture. Visual art
Speaker 1: can create for us this incredible space of wonder. I
Speaker 1: think that the space of art in museums allows also
Speaker 1: the space for conversations that perhaps don't happen in other places.
Speaker 1: The space of art gives us the chance to engage
Speaker 1: with each other around ideas, through artwork. I'm Anita Hill.
Speaker 1: This is Getting Even, my podcast about equality and what
Speaker 1: it takes to get there. On Getting Even, I speak
Speaker 1: with people who are improving, are imperfect world, people who
Speaker 1: took risks and broke the rules. In this episode, Thelma
Speaker 1: Golden and I discussed the role of a curator, her
Speaker 1: journey to becoming one, and how she currently approaches her
Speaker 1: work at the Studio Museum in Harlem. I just want
Speaker 1: to start out by saying that in twenty seventeen eighteen
Speaker 1: in Venice, it was a wonderful moment that stands out
Speaker 1: for me and I'm sure that people didn't expect me
Speaker 1: to be at the Venice Biennale, but they absolutely expect
Speaker 1: that you would be at the Venice Biennale. Of course
Speaker 1: you would be, And what stands out so much for
Speaker 1: me was that you belong there. This is your space,
Speaker 1: You have created your role in it. Everyone knows it
Speaker 1: and they respect it. And even at my age, it's
Speaker 1: important to be able to see that and to experience it.
Speaker 1: And honestly, by experiencing your comfort there, your sense of
Speaker 1: belonging there, and your presence and knowing what you've done,
Speaker 1: I felt more comfortable thank you. I am very humbled
Speaker 1: to be in this conversation with you. I'm so grateful
Speaker 1: for your comments because they really speak to not only
Speaker 1: what I aspire to as a young person when I
Speaker 1: imagined myself entering the museum world, when I thought about
Speaker 1: what it would mean to have a life and a
Speaker 1: career in and of the arts, but also what it
Speaker 1: is meant to continue to do this work and to
Speaker 1: show up for this work every day. That's amazing. So
Speaker 1: let's art with talking about your relationship with the art
Speaker 1: world starting at an early age for you, right, yes,
Speaker 1: started at a very early age through what I think
Speaker 1: for so many of us, can always be an important
Speaker 1: lover in our lives. And that is the introduction not
Speaker 1: just to art, but to the idea of the history
Speaker 1: of art that was introduced to me by a teacher
Speaker 1: when I was in fifth grade. To that point, like
Speaker 1: many children, I enjoyed what it meant to make, to
Speaker 1: put my hands into something and create. I grew up
Speaker 1: with a mother who was deeply creative, a mother who
Speaker 1: could so, who cooked, who decorated, so I understood the
Speaker 1: sort of the power and pleasure of creativity. But to
Speaker 1: be introduced to the history of art, and to understand
Speaker 1: that that history contained the histories of our cultures, of
Speaker 1: our countries of people was fascinating to me. It was
Speaker 1: made very possible by my parents, who then supported my
Speaker 1: desire to go to museums. I grew up in New
Speaker 1: York City, and my parents were deeply involved in the
Speaker 1: cultural world, but their cultural interest was theater and music.
Speaker 1: And then it was also made possible by the librarians
Speaker 1: at the Queensboro Public Library who allowed me at a
Speaker 1: very young age. You know, they'd lift those big, large
Speaker 1: art books off the shelf of the art section and
Speaker 1: let me sit there and look at them. And so
Speaker 1: this was all sort of created in me, very very
Speaker 1: early in my life. You say it was created in you,
Speaker 1: but it was also something maybe that was intuitive, that
Speaker 1: was their internally in you. Do you ever think that
Speaker 1: you're right? It was perhaps cultivated and nurtured by the
Speaker 1: adults around me that the possibility then, when I got
Speaker 1: to college to begin to express the sense of what
Speaker 1: I would do in the world, it seemed that there
Speaker 1: was actually nothing else I imagined that I would do.
Speaker 1: So when specifically did you first imagine that you would
Speaker 1: actually work in a museum. Well, I put it into
Speaker 1: the world when I was applying to college, and in
Speaker 1: my college application essay, I stated that I wanted to
Speaker 1: be a contemporary art curator. So I think that was
Speaker 1: the moment when I began to say it. Through my
Speaker 1: college years, I was in art history an African American
Speaker 1: Studies double major at Smith College, and during those years
Speaker 1: studying in those two disciplines, I had many, many internships,
Speaker 1: but the most significant internship that I had was in
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty five. I was an intern at the Studio
Speaker 1: Museum in Harlem, and that internship shaped me. It seemed
Speaker 1: somewhat telling the story now, it always feels like, well, then,
Speaker 1: of course you are director of the Studio Museum now,
Speaker 1: But no, I mean that internship really created for me
Speaker 1: a path. It gave me this sense of who I
Speaker 1: could be in the art museum world, how I could
Speaker 1: be in the art museum world, and it was transformative.
Speaker 1: I'm just curious about the idea that you said, you
Speaker 1: put in your application that you wanted to be a curator.
Speaker 1: Did you know exactly what the job of a curator
Speaker 1: was at that time? I did, But here's why I knew.
Speaker 1: I knew what a curator was. Because I had the
Speaker 1: amazing experience of being a high school intern at the
Speaker 1: Metropolitan Museum working in a curatorial department, I came to
Speaker 1: know very generally about the job, but more specifically because,
Speaker 1: as I say, this interest was really courage by my parents.
Speaker 1: My father shared with me a picture of a curator
Speaker 1: who was a curator at that time at the Metropolitan Museum,
Speaker 1: and her picture was in a magazine and her name
Speaker 1: was Lowry Stoke Sims. And Lowry was the first African
Speaker 1: American curator of modern and contemporary art at the Metropolitan
Speaker 1: when she entered the Met in nineteen seventy two, before
Speaker 1: being appointed to be director of the Studio Museum in
Speaker 1: Harlem in two thousand. She is seen as a pioneer
Speaker 1: in the art in the museum world. And so my
Speaker 1: whole time as a high school student at the Met
Speaker 1: my hope was that I was going to run into
Speaker 1: Lowry Stoke Simms, you just walking through the halls. That
Speaker 1: did not happen. But when I was in college and
Speaker 1: had the chance to be connected with her and meet her,
Speaker 1: she became instantly moved from just being this inspiration out
Speaker 1: in the world, but became a mentor of friend, and
Speaker 1: then I went on to work for her in two thousand,
Speaker 1: when I came to the Studio Museum. Did you understand
Speaker 1: the power of a curator, the power of the act
Speaker 1: of curating art? And if so, how did you understand it?
Speaker 1: And how do you understand it today? I came to
Speaker 1: understand the power of curating when I was an intern
Speaker 1: at the Studio Museum, because I came to understand the
Speaker 1: institution and its history, and the way in which the institution,
Speaker 1: through its exhibitions and its collection, had changed art history.
Speaker 1: It had opened the cannon so that the histories, the lives,
Speaker 1: the visions, and the voices of black artists would be documented.
Speaker 1: So I understood how important this act was to create
Speaker 1: narrative through artworks, through objects, and through the voice of
Speaker 1: artists into creat what would be full and rich and
Speaker 1: diverse art histories. And it continued to make me understand
Speaker 1: the role that institutions and individuals and institutions have in
Speaker 1: not only creating this opportunity for us in the present,
Speaker 1: but how important curatorial work in the present is two
Speaker 1: futures that have yet to be created. I think so
Speaker 1: many of us who come from the humanities. Think of
Speaker 1: creating narratives as coming from literature, but you understood it
Speaker 1: as not only coming from art itself, but also coming
Speaker 1: from the way art is presented. Yes, And you know,
Speaker 1: I think that's really a powerful message to take in.
Speaker 1: That just seems so clear to me that this was
Speaker 1: the work that you're destined to do, that you're supposed
Speaker 1: to be doing, and it feels like that today. Well,
Speaker 1: I have worked on lots of exhibition but you know,
Speaker 1: exhibition making for me as a curator has really been
Speaker 1: just one part of the work, because I think of
Speaker 1: the exhibition as what surfaces to the public, But the
Speaker 1: work has been what it means to be in collaboration,
Speaker 1: what it means to be in communion with artists, and
Speaker 1: sometimes that doesn't always surface into an exhibition, but I
Speaker 1: see that really as the core of my work, and
Speaker 1: that is one of the things that stands out about
Speaker 1: you and your work. But I do want to think
Speaker 1: about your memory of the various exhibitions. Can you tell
Speaker 1: us when you really feel that an exhibition that you
Speaker 1: curate it actually reflected your vision for art. You know,
Speaker 1: I have to say that I believe that every exhibition
Speaker 1: I've made has reflected my vision for art. So as
Speaker 1: a curator, I often see my exhibitions existing in a
Speaker 1: particular moment. I've often said sometimes exhibitions are the way
Speaker 1: to ask and answer questions, and for me, those questions
Speaker 1: in particular continue to change and evolve, so that I'm
Speaker 1: always entering into curating with the same core principles, but
Speaker 1: the nature of what it means to think through objects
Speaker 1: and through artists has changed for me over the course
Speaker 1: of my career. And you focus on not only what
Speaker 1: the audience is feeling, but also you focus on the artists.
Speaker 1: And can you say more about how your focus is
Speaker 1: on the artist who you've worked with. I think of
Speaker 1: my role as a curator as a kind of interlocutor
Speaker 1: between artists, their objects, and the audience. And I think
Speaker 1: that when I'm operating at my best in this role
Speaker 1: that actually my role is the least significant in that equation.
Speaker 1: It is the one that, though is creating the opportunity
Speaker 1: for the conversation between an artist, their objects and ideas,
Speaker 1: and the audience itself. Now, not every artist I've worked
Speaker 1: with is living, but I kind of carry that same
Speaker 1: sensibility even when I'm working with an artist that I
Speaker 1: don't have the opportunity to have the kind of conversation with.
Speaker 1: But most of my work has been with living artists,
Speaker 1: and it really has been about how can I be
Speaker 1: in service to creating an intellectual space, a physical space
Speaker 1: in the form of an exhibition for their work, for
Speaker 1: their voice, for their vision. But it seems to me
Speaker 1: that you also see the art that you work with
Speaker 1: as having the possibility of shaping culture. How does that
Speaker 1: play in then to the way it's exhibited. I think
Speaker 1: that art, the arts broadly, but visual art specifically, provides
Speaker 1: the opportunity for us to as audience members, to have
Speaker 1: many different kinds of experiences. It can be an experience
Speaker 1: of inspiration. Visual art can create for us this incredible
Speaker 1: space of wonder. It can be a space of instigation.
Speaker 1: Works of art can allow us to think about the
Speaker 1: world in different ways, seeing it through the vision of artists.
Speaker 1: I think that the space of art in museums allows
Speaker 1: also the space for conversations that perhaps don't happen in
Speaker 1: other places. The space of art gives us the chance
Speaker 1: to engage with each other around ideas through artwork. After
Speaker 1: the break, Val mcgolden and I discuss the importance of
Speaker 1: art in the black community and how essential museums are
Speaker 1: to representation and inspiration. You're listening to getting even I'm
Speaker 1: Anita Hill. I'm speaking with Elma Golden, director and chief
Speaker 1: curator of the Studio Museum about her storied career. We
Speaker 1: also talk about how museums are being reinvented to reflect
Speaker 1: diverse artists and audiences. Can you give us an example
Speaker 1: of one of your exampits that really did bring about
Speaker 1: a different conversation or shift the narrative about the way
Speaker 1: the world operates, or at least encourage people to ask
Speaker 1: different questions. There are so many different ways to answer
Speaker 1: that question. It's such a good one, and I think
Speaker 1: I'll go back to my beginnings and perhaps this is
Speaker 1: why this has remained so important to me. And it's
Speaker 1: important to know how you got there. What was the
Speaker 1: very first exhibit that you curated and where was that?
Speaker 1: The first fully conceived group exhibition I made was the
Speaker 1: exhibition I curated in nineteen ninety four, which had the
Speaker 1: title Blackmail Representations of Masculinity and Contemporary American Arts ninety
Speaker 1: four that moment, so the Blackmail exhibition was deeply inspired
Speaker 1: by the artworks by artists who were looking at the
Speaker 1: image of black masculinity as it was portrayed in popular
Speaker 1: culture and media. That moment was so defined by the
Speaker 1: confirmation hearings, by the Simpson Trial, by Rodney King, and
Speaker 1: the exhibition existed in the public's imagination sort of attached
Speaker 1: to high level of controversy. The way in which I
Speaker 1: saw that exhibition is that it existed within a high
Speaker 1: level of conversation because it was an exhibition about representation,
Speaker 1: the history of representation, how it existed in our art
Speaker 1: and art historical worlds, but also how it lived in
Speaker 1: popular culture. It was an exhibition that had a range
Speaker 1: of artists, cross generation, but was existing in a moment
Speaker 1: which continues where this was also existing in the world.
Speaker 1: And for me that sort of formed me and formed
Speaker 1: my sense of how I wanted to exist as a
Speaker 1: curator in the world. And in many cases I would
Speaker 1: suspect for that exhibit, the conversation involved lots of tensions
Speaker 1: and lots of contradictions, and of course it did, because
Speaker 1: life includes that. But in the space of an exhibition,
Speaker 1: in the space of the kind of narrative and exhibition creates,
Speaker 1: there was the possibility to wrestle with those contradictions, to
Speaker 1: be in the kind of conversation that could open up
Speaker 1: space for new ideas and ways of seeing. I really
Speaker 1: do believe in that way, that of thinking about this
Speaker 1: sort of space where we can engage as a community,
Speaker 1: in the sort of deep thinking about who we are,
Speaker 1: what we are, what makes us human, how we see
Speaker 1: each other, how we understand each other. You curated that
Speaker 1: exhibit while you were at the Whitney Museum, but ultimately
Speaker 1: you left the Whitney and you moved uptown back to
Speaker 1: the Studio Museum. What was your calculus when you made
Speaker 1: that decision. Yes, it was quite a moment, you know,
Speaker 1: of personal investigation and personal reckoning. Even in my own family,
Speaker 1: you know, my parents had very different views of this move.
Speaker 1: It was interesting to me that my parents did not agree.
Speaker 1: One of them thought very specifically that because I'd been
Speaker 1: at the Whitney for over a decade and it was
Speaker 1: the first African American curator there, that I was, you know, pathbreaker,
Speaker 1: that I should continue that within an institution that lived
Speaker 1: within that sense of power and privilege in history. And
Speaker 1: my other parent felt the opposite. My other parent felt
Speaker 1: that I had been educated from kindergarten all the way
Speaker 1: through college in prestigious, mainstream institutions that lived within this
Speaker 1: sense of power and privilege. And yes, I had had
Speaker 1: this incredible experience at the Whitney, but the reality was
Speaker 1: that my job at the Whitney ended. I was longer
Speaker 1: at the Whitney. I was considering what my next step
Speaker 1: would be. And when the call came that let me
Speaker 1: know that Lowry Stokes Sims was being appointed to be
Speaker 1: the director of the Studio Museum and was interested in
Speaker 1: a conversation with me to be her chief curator. That
Speaker 1: is all I needed, right the idea of what it
Speaker 1: would mean to work for Lowry, to work with Lowry
Speaker 1: at an institution that not only was incredibly important to
Speaker 1: me that early internship experience, but also to do it
Speaker 1: with Lowry at a moment which potentially, as we discussed
Speaker 1: what could be, could begin to imagine the museum at
Speaker 1: the next phase of its life. And here we are
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty two, and I am celebrating my twenty
Speaker 1: second year at the museum, and I am so proud
Speaker 1: of that and feel privileged to have had this experience.
Speaker 1: And it sounds like you are excited about not only
Speaker 1: what you went into, but where it has grown, where
Speaker 1: the Studio Museum has grown as the world's leading institution
Speaker 1: devoted to the visual art by artists of African descent.
Speaker 1: I don't think it's by chance that the Studio Museum
Speaker 1: is in Harlem. Was it important for you to be
Speaker 1: in the Harlem community in doing your work there? Well,
Speaker 1: it was important to me to be in an institution
Speaker 1: that formed itself around an idea of art and artists.
Speaker 1: That's where the Studio in our name comes from. That
Speaker 1: was created in a radical revisioning of what museum could
Speaker 1: be in our name, but cited itself in the Harlem
Speaker 1: community in the present of our founding, but also look
Speaker 1: back to the past of Harlem when we were founded.
Speaker 1: But also I believe that those who were involved in
Speaker 1: the creation of the Studio Museum and we're also making
Speaker 1: a stake into the future that exists for us now.
Speaker 1: It seems to me that what you're talking about in
Speaker 1: terms of the space and the Studio Museum was about
Speaker 1: was a revision of what museums can be and what
Speaker 1: they needed to be for the future. I don't think
Speaker 1: that everyone has learned the lesson because I think even
Speaker 1: today what we have and certainly historically museums have been
Speaker 1: oppressively white spaces where you visit it and you see
Speaker 1: things on the wall. You don't see the artists. You
Speaker 1: see the art. You may find out a few things
Speaker 1: about the artists, but the primary focus to me in
Speaker 1: my experience, is that the exhibits are about the art.
Speaker 1: They're primarily, let's say, located in white, upper class, middle
Speaker 1: class neighborhoods. We tend to think of the patrons as
Speaker 1: being primarily not people of color, and the exhibits, as
Speaker 1: well as the costliness of admissions into these spaces are
Speaker 1: somewhat prohibitive for many people. Is enough being done to
Speaker 1: revise what a museum can be. I mean, it seems
Speaker 1: to mean you've got a very inclusive approach to your work,
Speaker 1: but I'm not sure that we see that throughout the
Speaker 1: museum world. I think that museums can be different, and
Speaker 1: the reason I know that is because in looking at
Speaker 1: the history of museums, we have had many periods of
Speaker 1: reinvention and reevaluation of museums that have created two models.
Speaker 1: The museum that I'm privilegedly was part of that in
Speaker 1: the late sixties when museums were being protested here in
Speaker 1: New York City because of their exclusion of black and
Speaker 1: Latino and women artists, and these protests were being led
Speaker 1: primarily by artists but also concerned citizens, and these were
Speaker 1: the great museums in New York City. That while there
Speaker 1: was an effort in those protests to shift and change
Speaker 1: those institutions, there also was an effort to create new
Speaker 1: institutional models. And the Studio Museum in Harlem and Elms
Speaker 1: Debater here in New York came out of that moment.
Speaker 1: So is enough being done? There's much more work to
Speaker 1: be done, And I think the field acknowledges in this
Speaker 1: moment the necessity for that work. But it's not simply
Speaker 1: a case of revision. In some cases, it's a case
Speaker 1: of reinvention. So I think that we're also in a
Speaker 1: moment where we're going to see new models. You know,
Speaker 1: we see so many arts institutions now, for example, being
Speaker 1: started by artists taking away this idea of who and
Speaker 1: how we understand the formation of institution, but creating spaces
Speaker 1: that clearly reflect directly the needs of audience. We have
Speaker 1: to make the experience something that can be meaningful welcoming
Speaker 1: for everyone, right, And so does that mean have a
Speaker 1: more diversity in terms of the directors of the museum curators?
Speaker 1: How do you realize or reinvent or revise what we
Speaker 1: have now? I think all of the above and then some.
Speaker 1: But what I'll say about that is I think that
Speaker 1: in every situation it might be a different combination of
Speaker 1: those factors. I think that the other part of this
Speaker 1: that's most important to me is that while institutions exist
Speaker 1: in this way that they are broad, we also have
Speaker 1: to really acknowledge the specificity of who we are institutionally
Speaker 1: and lean into that as we try to reimagine and reinvent.
Speaker 1: So if we have an institutional mandate to create access,
Speaker 1: we have to then also take the steps to say, well,
Speaker 1: what does access look like and what is that experience
Speaker 1: in real terms when visitors come to the museum. We
Speaker 1: also have to think about, you know, how we make
Speaker 1: art and we make culture more truly accessible so that
Speaker 1: it has the opportunity to exist for all people and
Speaker 1: we can move to a place where we can see
Speaker 1: an art in a museum where the barriers that we
Speaker 1: know that still exists for many people don't continue to exist.
Speaker 1: So you are now at the Studio Museum. You are
Speaker 1: developing a new space in terms of a new building,
Speaker 1: which is so so, so exciting. Can you tell us
Speaker 1: how that came about? Yes, it is so exciting, and
Speaker 1: it came about really through the sort of vision I
Speaker 1: would say of all the directors of the Studio Museum
Speaker 1: that came before me. And the reason I say that
Speaker 1: is because the ambition for this institution began at its founding.
Speaker 1: And even though at our founding we were in a
Speaker 1: rented second story space over a liquor store on Fifth
Speaker 1: Avenue between one hundred twenty fifth Street one hundred and
Speaker 1: twenty six Street, the vision for what would be a
Speaker 1: state of the art, purpose built building to celebrate and
Speaker 1: stewart the work of black artists was always what I know,
Speaker 1: they imagine. So we embarked on this project, selected the
Speaker 1: architects Sir David Ajay to design the building. David known
Speaker 1: of course for his design of the National Museum of
Speaker 1: African American History and Culture, but significant also for us
Speaker 1: at the Studio Museum because of his ongoing work with
Speaker 1: art and artists specifically. And so we close the building,
Speaker 1: the old building in twenty eighteen and began a process
Speaker 1: that began with its demolition to now we are in
Speaker 1: construction on this new space and hope to be open
Speaker 1: in a few years. I listen to you speak and
Speaker 1: you talk about the history, the present, and the future.
Speaker 1: Do you ever hear from people who say, well, there
Speaker 1: are so many other problems that we're having in the
Speaker 1: black community in Harlem in the world, that is the
Speaker 1: museum the place to put this money. What I often
Speaker 1: hear is a nuanced and subtle understanding that this museum,
Speaker 1: but perhaps a museum, a cultural institution, is important within
Speaker 1: the civic life of a community like Harlem. We are
Speaker 1: very privileged in Harlem to work among some iconic cultural institutions,
Speaker 1: and I think there is an incredible understanding in our
Speaker 1: community of the way in which cultural institutions have been
Speaker 1: anchors in the community in this community for some almost
Speaker 1: a century for many of us a half a century,
Speaker 1: and the desire for that to continue as a way
Speaker 1: to continue to support the constant need for this community,
Speaker 1: and a need that comes from the care and the
Speaker 1: commitment that cultural institutions have to the lives of those
Speaker 1: in our immediate neighborhood and throughout the city and essentially
Speaker 1: throughout the world. It seems to me personally that art
Speaker 1: has always been part of the life blood of a community,
Speaker 1: of any community, but particularly this community, and it brings
Speaker 1: vibrancy and that it brings joy into a community, which
Speaker 1: is essential for communities to grow and prosper. Yes, it is,
Speaker 1: it's essential, and that it brings joy, It brings a
Speaker 1: sense of being able to ground into a space of inspiration.
Speaker 1: It allows for the ability to engage with a sense
Speaker 1: of one's own humanity, and all of that kind of
Speaker 1: lives as deeply important and is acknowledged as such because
Speaker 1: of the important place culture place within the Black community.
Speaker 1: I want to explore this idea of where art is today.
Speaker 1: I read the term post black art, and so for
Speaker 1: someone who doesn't really understand the term, how would you
Speaker 1: explain post black art. Yes, well, the term post black
Speaker 1: as it was engaged around an exhibition that I curated
Speaker 1: with the curator Christine Kim in two thousand and one,
Speaker 1: an exhibition called Freestyle, which was an exhibition that looked
Speaker 1: at the work of emerging black artists at that moment.
Speaker 1: And what we were speaking about was the generational shift
Speaker 1: that we saw that at first was subtle and then
Speaker 1: became so much more apparent of a younger generation of
Speaker 1: Black artists who were looking beyond the Black arts movement
Speaker 1: as a way to understand themselves, their identity and culture
Speaker 1: in the work that they were making. Oh, have we
Speaker 1: evolved to a new generation for young black artists? Are
Speaker 1: they in a different place now than they were when
Speaker 1: you coined the phrase? Definitely? And that's what I think
Speaker 1: is so important and significant about thinking about art that
Speaker 1: you know, often we want to think in these long lineages,
Speaker 1: but quite often when we look at the world and
Speaker 1: how the world moves, that shifts become clear and apparent
Speaker 1: in much more discrete ways. So that that exhibition in
Speaker 1: two thousand and one, which included artists like Julie Murettu
Speaker 1: and Mark Bradford and Sanford Baggers and so many others.
Speaker 1: You know, if we look now and we see we've
Speaker 1: had almost two groups of artists since that continue to reimagine,
Speaker 1: redefine the space of what it means to make work
Speaker 1: in this moment. And I also see those artists as
Speaker 1: really moving society forward, not only moving art forward, but
Speaker 1: moving society forward in our understanding about what art is
Speaker 1: and what it does for us. I agree, and I
Speaker 1: think that's why I continue to want to create space,
Speaker 1: protect space, make more space for the visions and voices
Speaker 1: of artists, and want to come back to Laurie Stokes SMS.
Speaker 1: She has said that guardians of black culture are not
Speaker 1: the gatekeepers. Many people may assume that people who hold
Speaker 1: certain positions in the art world are untouchable or unattainable.
Speaker 1: Do you see yourself as a guardian of black culture?
Speaker 1: Not perhaps in the way that maybe others might imagine
Speaker 1: that the term would mean. So I see myself as
Speaker 1: a guardian in the sense that I want to protect
Speaker 1: the space for black artists to work and to live
Speaker 1: and to be. I want to create the structures that
Speaker 1: support their creativity. I want to always be in a
Speaker 1: space of interpretive power around making space for their work
Speaker 1: and for them to be in the world. I see
Speaker 1: myself as someone who is working in collaboration with artists
Speaker 1: around making it possible for them to do what they do,
Speaker 1: as it relates to how that can exist into a
Speaker 1: public I do see you as being the guardian, not
Speaker 1: the gatekeeper, and I see your work as expanding space
Speaker 1: for the black radical imagination and art, as well as
Speaker 1: enlarging our own imagination the public's imagination about where black
Speaker 1: artists and their art belongs. When I became a university
Speaker 1: professor in Brandeis, I was at a point when I
Speaker 1: was starting to understand the power of art, and I
Speaker 1: gave my university lecture to the university on a fairly
Speaker 1: arcane legal principle around the equality and the way the
Speaker 1: Supreme Court would interpret whether something was equal. And what
Speaker 1: I chose to do rather than have a PowerPoint president
Speaker 1: tation with notes, was to use art from our collection.
Speaker 1: Photos of art from our collection that reflected to me
Speaker 1: some of the points that I wanted to make in
Speaker 1: my lecture about the law, and so that I think
Speaker 1: that was one of the best experiences that I've had
Speaker 1: in my teaching. Fantastic. I love, absolutely love hearing that
Speaker 1: what we do, what I do in the classroom is curate.
Speaker 1: To get prepared for a lecture, I am curating ideas exactly,
Speaker 1: and so understanding what a curator does has also helped
Speaker 1: me to understand my teaching. So I just want to
Speaker 1: say thank you for being who you are and doing
Speaker 1: what you do and for your continued attention to the
Speaker 1: issues of culture, narrative change, positive change, and what in
Speaker 1: my own work amounts to the creation of a more
Speaker 1: equal society. Thank you, thank you for those words. I
Speaker 1: am so grateful to you and will continue to feel
Speaker 1: grateful for the space that you've created that's made it
Speaker 1: possible for so many of us to chart these incredible
Speaker 1: paths that will create a difference for the generations behind us.
Speaker 1: As a curator, Thelma Golden shapes her exhibits narratives. As
Speaker 1: a museum director, she shapes the identity of museum space,
Speaker 1: expanding who it belongs to. Both are powerful roles, and
Speaker 1: she uses them to help us understand how location, representation,
Speaker 1: and creative fulfillment are linked to equity. Golden is a
Speaker 1: leader in a movement to change museum world thinking about
Speaker 1: artists and audiences access to art. I have no doubt
Speaker 1: that her optimistic vision of museums as inclusive faces will
Speaker 1: be on full display in the New Studio Museum, and
Speaker 1: I look forward to its opening. In the next episode,
Speaker 1: I speak with Houston based artists and community organizer Rick Low.
Speaker 1: We discuss his work with Project row Houses, which is
Speaker 1: both an art project and a housing project. The way
Speaker 1: the houses are set up this fifteen on one block
Speaker 1: and seven on the other block, and I remember we
Speaker 1: were talking about what should we do with the other houses.
Speaker 1: The logical thinking was that, oh, we should we should
Speaker 1: have artists residents who live here, and that was a
Speaker 1: logical thing. But as I was speaking with a woman
Speaker 1: who was working with us as an administrator, she came
Speaker 1: up with this idea, because what if we tried to
Speaker 1: do a housing program from teen Mothers? Getting Even is
Speaker 1: a production of Pushkin Industries and it's written and hosted
Speaker 1: by me Anita Hill. It is produced by Mola Board
Speaker 1: and Brittany Brown. Our editor is Sarah Kramer, our engineer
Speaker 1: is Amanda kay Wang, and our showrunner is Sasha Matthias.
Speaker 1: Luis Gara composed original music for the show. Our executive
Speaker 1: producers are Mia Lobel and Letal Malad. Our Director of
Speaker 1: Development is Justine Lane. At Pushkin thanks to Heather Fane,
Speaker 1: Carly Migliori, Jason Gambrel, Julia Barton, John Schnarz, and Jacob Weisberg.
Speaker 1: You can find me on Twitter at Anita Hill and
Speaker 1: on Facebook at Anita Hill. You can find Pushkin on
Speaker 1: all social platforms at Pushkin Pods, and you can sign
Speaker 1: up for our newsletter at pushkin dot fm. If you
Speaker 1: love this show and others from Pushkin Industries, consider subscribing
Speaker 1: to Pushkin Plus. Subscribe to Pushkin Plus and you can
Speaker 1: hear Getting Even and other Pushkin shows add free and
Speaker 1: receive exclusive bonus episodes. Sign up on the Getting Even
Speaker 1: show page in Apple Podcasts or at pushkin dot fm.
Speaker 1: To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you like to listen