WEBVTT - Making Space for Art and Community with Thelma Golden 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:25.796 Pushkin Getting Even is produced by Pushkin Industries. Subscribe to 0:00:25.836 --> 0:00:29.316 Pushkin Plus and you can hear Getting Even and other 0:00:29.356 --> 0:00:35.636 Pushkin shows ad free and receive exclusive bonus episodes. Sign 0:00:35.756 --> 0:00:39.716 up on the Getting Even show page in Apple Podcasts 0:00:39.956 --> 0:00:46.716 or at Pushkin dot Fm. I think of my role 0:00:46.756 --> 0:00:51.956 as a curator as a kind of interlocutor between artists, 0:00:52.916 --> 0:00:58.356 their objects, and the audience. That's Belma Golden, the director 0:00:58.356 --> 0:01:03.156 and chief curator of the Studio Museum in Harlem. She's 0:01:03.196 --> 0:01:06.556 been at the helm of hundreds of exhibits, and throughout 0:01:06.556 --> 0:01:10.716 her decades long career, Golden has been committed to the 0:01:10.716 --> 0:01:14.596 work of artists of African descent. I think of the 0:01:14.636 --> 0:01:18.596 exhibition as what surfaces to the public, but the work 0:01:18.676 --> 0:01:22.356 has been what it means to be in collaboration, what 0:01:22.476 --> 0:01:26.516 it means to be in communion with artists. Golden sees 0:01:26.716 --> 0:01:31.476 art as essential to community and to culture. Visual art 0:01:31.556 --> 0:01:35.196 can create for us this incredible space of wonder. I 0:01:35.236 --> 0:01:40.916 think that the space of art in museums allows also 0:01:41.156 --> 0:01:46.556 the space for conversations that perhaps don't happen in other places. 0:01:46.796 --> 0:01:49.716 The space of art gives us the chance to engage 0:01:49.756 --> 0:01:58.516 with each other around ideas, through artwork. I'm Anita Hill. 0:01:58.876 --> 0:02:02.716 This is Getting Even, my podcast about equality and what 0:02:02.756 --> 0:02:07.636 it takes to get there. On Getting Even, I speak 0:02:07.636 --> 0:02:11.756 with people who are improving, are imperfect world, people who 0:02:11.796 --> 0:02:18.076 took risks and broke the rules. In this episode, Thelma 0:02:18.116 --> 0:02:21.116 Golden and I discussed the role of a curator, her 0:02:21.196 --> 0:02:24.636 journey to becoming one, and how she currently approaches her 0:02:24.676 --> 0:02:29.076 work at the Studio Museum in Harlem. I just want 0:02:29.116 --> 0:02:34.436 to start out by saying that in twenty seventeen eighteen 0:02:34.796 --> 0:02:39.556 in Venice, it was a wonderful moment that stands out 0:02:39.636 --> 0:02:44.556 for me and I'm sure that people didn't expect me 0:02:44.636 --> 0:02:48.836 to be at the Venice Biennale, but they absolutely expect 0:02:48.916 --> 0:02:52.156 that you would be at the Venice Biennale. Of course 0:02:52.156 --> 0:02:55.036 you would be, And what stands out so much for 0:02:55.156 --> 0:03:02.316 me was that you belong there. This is your space, 0:03:02.556 --> 0:03:07.436 You have created your role in it. Everyone knows it 0:03:07.596 --> 0:03:12.236 and they respect it. And even at my age, it's 0:03:12.356 --> 0:03:16.916 important to be able to see that and to experience it. 0:03:17.356 --> 0:03:22.236 And honestly, by experiencing your comfort there, your sense of 0:03:22.276 --> 0:03:26.636 belonging there, and your presence and knowing what you've done, 0:03:26.996 --> 0:03:32.356 I felt more comfortable thank you. I am very humbled 0:03:32.476 --> 0:03:37.076 to be in this conversation with you. I'm so grateful 0:03:37.116 --> 0:03:41.876 for your comments because they really speak to not only 0:03:42.116 --> 0:03:46.356 what I aspire to as a young person when I 0:03:46.196 --> 0:03:51.636 imagined myself entering the museum world, when I thought about 0:03:51.716 --> 0:03:54.276 what it would mean to have a life and a 0:03:54.356 --> 0:03:58.996 career in and of the arts, but also what it 0:03:59.076 --> 0:04:01.796 is meant to continue to do this work and to 0:04:01.916 --> 0:04:08.316 show up for this work every day. That's amazing. So 0:04:08.676 --> 0:04:13.476 let's art with talking about your relationship with the art 0:04:13.676 --> 0:04:17.996 world starting at an early age for you, right, yes, 0:04:18.116 --> 0:04:21.796 started at a very early age through what I think 0:04:21.836 --> 0:04:25.476 for so many of us, can always be an important 0:04:25.676 --> 0:04:29.076 lover in our lives. And that is the introduction not 0:04:29.236 --> 0:04:32.556 just to art, but to the idea of the history 0:04:32.556 --> 0:04:35.356 of art that was introduced to me by a teacher 0:04:35.916 --> 0:04:38.916 when I was in fifth grade. To that point, like 0:04:39.036 --> 0:04:43.156 many children, I enjoyed what it meant to make, to 0:04:43.276 --> 0:04:47.676 put my hands into something and create. I grew up 0:04:47.796 --> 0:04:50.916 with a mother who was deeply creative, a mother who 0:04:50.956 --> 0:04:55.076 could so, who cooked, who decorated, so I understood the 0:04:55.156 --> 0:04:59.276 sort of the power and pleasure of creativity. But to 0:04:59.356 --> 0:05:03.556 be introduced to the history of art, and to understand 0:05:03.836 --> 0:05:08.836 that that history contained the histories of our cultures, of 0:05:09.196 --> 0:05:13.956 our countries of people was fascinating to me. It was 0:05:14.236 --> 0:05:17.916 made very possible by my parents, who then supported my 0:05:18.036 --> 0:05:20.956 desire to go to museums. I grew up in New 0:05:21.036 --> 0:05:24.196 York City, and my parents were deeply involved in the 0:05:24.236 --> 0:05:27.636 cultural world, but their cultural interest was theater and music. 0:05:27.836 --> 0:05:30.756 And then it was also made possible by the librarians 0:05:30.916 --> 0:05:34.436 at the Queensboro Public Library who allowed me at a 0:05:34.556 --> 0:05:38.276 very young age. You know, they'd lift those big, large 0:05:38.556 --> 0:05:41.556 art books off the shelf of the art section and 0:05:41.636 --> 0:05:43.476 let me sit there and look at them. And so 0:05:44.076 --> 0:05:47.156 this was all sort of created in me, very very 0:05:47.156 --> 0:05:50.116 early in my life. You say it was created in you, 0:05:50.716 --> 0:05:55.516 but it was also something maybe that was intuitive, that 0:05:55.716 --> 0:05:58.756 was their internally in you. Do you ever think that 0:05:59.676 --> 0:06:03.556 you're right? It was perhaps cultivated and nurtured by the 0:06:03.596 --> 0:06:07.316 adults around me that the possibility then, when I got 0:06:07.356 --> 0:06:11.516 to college to begin to express the sense of what 0:06:11.636 --> 0:06:14.716 I would do in the world, it seemed that there 0:06:14.836 --> 0:06:17.956 was actually nothing else I imagined that I would do. 0:06:19.796 --> 0:06:23.156 So when specifically did you first imagine that you would 0:06:23.196 --> 0:06:27.676 actually work in a museum. Well, I put it into 0:06:27.676 --> 0:06:30.956 the world when I was applying to college, and in 0:06:30.996 --> 0:06:35.876 my college application essay, I stated that I wanted to 0:06:35.916 --> 0:06:39.676 be a contemporary art curator. So I think that was 0:06:39.756 --> 0:06:43.796 the moment when I began to say it. Through my 0:06:43.916 --> 0:06:47.516 college years, I was in art history an African American 0:06:47.556 --> 0:06:51.556 Studies double major at Smith College, and during those years 0:06:51.596 --> 0:06:55.716 studying in those two disciplines, I had many, many internships, 0:06:55.756 --> 0:06:59.756 but the most significant internship that I had was in 0:06:59.916 --> 0:07:03.756 nineteen eighty five. I was an intern at the Studio 0:07:03.836 --> 0:07:09.116 Museum in Harlem, and that internship shaped me. It seemed 0:07:09.756 --> 0:07:12.636 somewhat telling the story now, it always feels like, well, then, 0:07:12.676 --> 0:07:15.436 of course you are director of the Studio Museum now, 0:07:15.516 --> 0:07:20.156 But no, I mean that internship really created for me 0:07:20.676 --> 0:07:25.156 a path. It gave me this sense of who I 0:07:25.236 --> 0:07:29.436 could be in the art museum world, how I could 0:07:29.436 --> 0:07:33.796 be in the art museum world, and it was transformative. 0:07:34.716 --> 0:07:38.036 I'm just curious about the idea that you said, you 0:07:38.316 --> 0:07:43.276 put in your application that you wanted to be a curator. 0:07:43.796 --> 0:07:46.316 Did you know exactly what the job of a curator 0:07:46.556 --> 0:07:51.876 was at that time? I did, But here's why I knew. 0:07:52.156 --> 0:07:55.156 I knew what a curator was. Because I had the 0:07:55.396 --> 0:07:58.956 amazing experience of being a high school intern at the 0:07:58.996 --> 0:08:03.316 Metropolitan Museum working in a curatorial department, I came to 0:08:03.356 --> 0:08:06.956 know very generally about the job, but more specifically because, 0:08:06.956 --> 0:08:10.316 as I say, this interest was really courage by my parents. 0:08:10.796 --> 0:08:14.516 My father shared with me a picture of a curator 0:08:15.196 --> 0:08:17.996 who was a curator at that time at the Metropolitan Museum, 0:08:18.436 --> 0:08:21.476 and her picture was in a magazine and her name 0:08:21.516 --> 0:08:26.996 was Lowry Stoke Sims. And Lowry was the first African 0:08:26.996 --> 0:08:30.636 American curator of modern and contemporary art at the Metropolitan 0:08:30.756 --> 0:08:34.836 when she entered the Met in nineteen seventy two, before 0:08:34.956 --> 0:08:38.516 being appointed to be director of the Studio Museum in 0:08:38.676 --> 0:08:43.516 Harlem in two thousand. She is seen as a pioneer 0:08:43.676 --> 0:08:47.276 in the art in the museum world. And so my 0:08:47.436 --> 0:08:49.316 whole time as a high school student at the Met 0:08:49.396 --> 0:08:51.276 my hope was that I was going to run into 0:08:51.676 --> 0:08:54.796 Lowry Stoke Simms, you just walking through the halls. That 0:08:54.916 --> 0:08:57.596 did not happen. But when I was in college and 0:08:57.676 --> 0:09:01.316 had the chance to be connected with her and meet her, 0:09:01.756 --> 0:09:06.076 she became instantly moved from just being this inspiration out 0:09:06.116 --> 0:09:09.916 in the world, but became a mentor of friend, and 0:09:09.956 --> 0:09:13.756 then I went on to work for her in two thousand, 0:09:13.836 --> 0:09:17.276 when I came to the Studio Museum. Did you understand 0:09:17.596 --> 0:09:20.676 the power of a curator, the power of the act 0:09:20.796 --> 0:09:25.676 of curating art? And if so, how did you understand it? 0:09:25.876 --> 0:09:28.836 And how do you understand it today? I came to 0:09:28.956 --> 0:09:33.676 understand the power of curating when I was an intern 0:09:33.836 --> 0:09:37.516 at the Studio Museum, because I came to understand the 0:09:37.636 --> 0:09:41.436 institution and its history, and the way in which the institution, 0:09:42.116 --> 0:09:47.436 through its exhibitions and its collection, had changed art history. 0:09:47.636 --> 0:09:51.916 It had opened the cannon so that the histories, the lives, 0:09:51.956 --> 0:09:57.196 the visions, and the voices of black artists would be documented. 0:09:57.476 --> 0:10:01.156 So I understood how important this act was to create 0:10:01.316 --> 0:10:07.156 narrative through artworks, through objects, and through the voice of 0:10:07.356 --> 0:10:12.196 artists into creat what would be full and rich and 0:10:12.356 --> 0:10:16.116 diverse art histories. And it continued to make me understand 0:10:16.196 --> 0:10:20.996 the role that institutions and individuals and institutions have in 0:10:21.156 --> 0:10:25.356 not only creating this opportunity for us in the present, 0:10:25.716 --> 0:10:29.276 but how important curatorial work in the present is two 0:10:29.636 --> 0:10:33.476 futures that have yet to be created. I think so 0:10:33.516 --> 0:10:36.756 many of us who come from the humanities. Think of 0:10:36.996 --> 0:10:42.436 creating narratives as coming from literature, but you understood it 0:10:42.516 --> 0:10:46.996 as not only coming from art itself, but also coming 0:10:47.076 --> 0:10:51.476 from the way art is presented. Yes, And you know, 0:10:51.716 --> 0:10:55.076 I think that's really a powerful message to take in. 0:10:55.636 --> 0:10:58.436 That just seems so clear to me that this was 0:10:58.476 --> 0:11:02.076 the work that you're destined to do, that you're supposed 0:11:02.076 --> 0:11:05.556 to be doing, and it feels like that today. Well, 0:11:05.756 --> 0:11:08.956 I have worked on lots of exhibition but you know, 0:11:09.276 --> 0:11:13.596 exhibition making for me as a curator has really been 0:11:13.876 --> 0:11:16.196 just one part of the work, because I think of 0:11:16.236 --> 0:11:19.876 the exhibition as what surfaces to the public, But the 0:11:19.996 --> 0:11:23.476 work has been what it means to be in collaboration, 0:11:23.996 --> 0:11:27.276 what it means to be in communion with artists, and 0:11:27.356 --> 0:11:31.716 sometimes that doesn't always surface into an exhibition, but I 0:11:31.756 --> 0:11:35.356 see that really as the core of my work, and 0:11:35.436 --> 0:11:37.596 that is one of the things that stands out about 0:11:37.636 --> 0:11:41.156 you and your work. But I do want to think 0:11:41.196 --> 0:11:46.676 about your memory of the various exhibitions. Can you tell 0:11:46.756 --> 0:11:52.516 us when you really feel that an exhibition that you 0:11:53.196 --> 0:12:00.316 curate it actually reflected your vision for art. You know, 0:12:00.556 --> 0:12:05.636 I have to say that I believe that every exhibition 0:12:05.836 --> 0:12:10.276 I've made has reflected my vision for art. So as 0:12:10.276 --> 0:12:14.076 a curator, I often see my exhibitions existing in a 0:12:14.116 --> 0:12:17.916 particular moment. I've often said sometimes exhibitions are the way 0:12:18.196 --> 0:12:21.796 to ask and answer questions, and for me, those questions 0:12:21.796 --> 0:12:25.516 in particular continue to change and evolve, so that I'm 0:12:25.516 --> 0:12:30.676 always entering into curating with the same core principles, but 0:12:30.756 --> 0:12:35.236 the nature of what it means to think through objects 0:12:35.276 --> 0:12:38.476 and through artists has changed for me over the course 0:12:38.516 --> 0:12:42.276 of my career. And you focus on not only what 0:12:42.436 --> 0:12:45.756 the audience is feeling, but also you focus on the artists. 0:12:45.796 --> 0:12:49.996 And can you say more about how your focus is 0:12:50.236 --> 0:12:55.756 on the artist who you've worked with. I think of 0:12:55.796 --> 0:12:59.436 my role as a curator as a kind of interlocutor 0:12:59.636 --> 0:13:06.276 between artists, their objects, and the audience. And I think 0:13:06.396 --> 0:13:10.116 that when I'm operating at my best in this role 0:13:10.796 --> 0:13:16.076 that actually my role is the least significant in that equation. 0:13:16.236 --> 0:13:19.836 It is the one that, though is creating the opportunity 0:13:19.876 --> 0:13:23.956 for the conversation between an artist, their objects and ideas, 0:13:23.996 --> 0:13:27.876 and the audience itself. Now, not every artist I've worked 0:13:27.916 --> 0:13:30.796 with is living, but I kind of carry that same 0:13:31.196 --> 0:13:33.836 sensibility even when I'm working with an artist that I 0:13:33.876 --> 0:13:38.356 don't have the opportunity to have the kind of conversation with. 0:13:38.476 --> 0:13:41.236 But most of my work has been with living artists, 0:13:41.276 --> 0:13:44.556 and it really has been about how can I be 0:13:44.796 --> 0:13:49.516 in service to creating an intellectual space, a physical space 0:13:49.556 --> 0:13:53.196 in the form of an exhibition for their work, for 0:13:53.316 --> 0:13:57.436 their voice, for their vision. But it seems to me 0:13:57.796 --> 0:14:01.916 that you also see the art that you work with 0:14:02.636 --> 0:14:07.356 as having the possibility of shaping culture. How does that 0:14:07.436 --> 0:14:13.116 play in then to the way it's exhibited. I think 0:14:13.156 --> 0:14:19.396 that art, the arts broadly, but visual art specifically, provides 0:14:19.516 --> 0:14:25.316 the opportunity for us to as audience members, to have 0:14:26.236 --> 0:14:30.116 many different kinds of experiences. It can be an experience 0:14:30.676 --> 0:14:34.916 of inspiration. Visual art can create for us this incredible 0:14:34.956 --> 0:14:37.996 space of wonder. It can be a space of instigation. 0:14:38.796 --> 0:14:42.396 Works of art can allow us to think about the 0:14:42.436 --> 0:14:47.476 world in different ways, seeing it through the vision of artists. 0:14:47.516 --> 0:14:52.796 I think that the space of art in museums allows 0:14:52.956 --> 0:14:58.236 also the space for conversations that perhaps don't happen in 0:14:58.276 --> 0:15:01.356 other places. The space of art gives us the chance 0:15:01.636 --> 0:15:07.236 to engage with each other around ideas through artwork. After 0:15:07.276 --> 0:15:10.476 the break, Val mcgolden and I discuss the importance of 0:15:10.756 --> 0:15:15.476 art in the black community and how essential museums are 0:15:15.876 --> 0:15:30.436 to representation and inspiration. You're listening to getting even I'm 0:15:30.476 --> 0:15:35.836 Anita Hill. I'm speaking with Elma Golden, director and chief 0:15:35.876 --> 0:15:41.636 curator of the Studio Museum about her storied career. We 0:15:41.676 --> 0:15:45.636 also talk about how museums are being reinvented to reflect 0:15:45.636 --> 0:15:50.116 diverse artists and audiences. Can you give us an example 0:15:50.196 --> 0:15:55.476 of one of your exampits that really did bring about 0:15:55.516 --> 0:16:00.996 a different conversation or shift the narrative about the way 0:16:01.036 --> 0:16:05.476 the world operates, or at least encourage people to ask 0:16:05.596 --> 0:16:09.556 different questions. There are so many different ways to answer 0:16:09.556 --> 0:16:12.956 that question. It's such a good one, and I think 0:16:12.956 --> 0:16:15.956 I'll go back to my beginnings and perhaps this is 0:16:15.996 --> 0:16:18.636 why this has remained so important to me. And it's 0:16:18.796 --> 0:16:22.116 important to know how you got there. What was the 0:16:22.236 --> 0:16:26.596 very first exhibit that you curated and where was that? 0:16:26.996 --> 0:16:31.796 The first fully conceived group exhibition I made was the 0:16:31.916 --> 0:16:35.716 exhibition I curated in nineteen ninety four, which had the 0:16:35.756 --> 0:16:41.476 title Blackmail Representations of Masculinity and Contemporary American Arts ninety 0:16:41.516 --> 0:16:47.076 four that moment, so the Blackmail exhibition was deeply inspired 0:16:47.076 --> 0:16:50.196 by the artworks by artists who were looking at the 0:16:50.236 --> 0:16:54.716 image of black masculinity as it was portrayed in popular 0:16:54.756 --> 0:17:00.036 culture and media. That moment was so defined by the 0:17:00.076 --> 0:17:07.076 confirmation hearings, by the Simpson Trial, by Rodney King, and 0:17:07.276 --> 0:17:13.396 the exhibition existed in the public's imagination sort of attached 0:17:13.516 --> 0:17:17.356 to high level of controversy. The way in which I 0:17:17.396 --> 0:17:19.956 saw that exhibition is that it existed within a high 0:17:20.036 --> 0:17:23.996 level of conversation because it was an exhibition about representation, 0:17:24.236 --> 0:17:28.076 the history of representation, how it existed in our art 0:17:28.316 --> 0:17:31.356 and art historical worlds, but also how it lived in 0:17:31.436 --> 0:17:36.196 popular culture. It was an exhibition that had a range 0:17:36.196 --> 0:17:40.276 of artists, cross generation, but was existing in a moment 0:17:40.596 --> 0:17:44.716 which continues where this was also existing in the world. 0:17:44.956 --> 0:17:47.596 And for me that sort of formed me and formed 0:17:47.596 --> 0:17:52.436 my sense of how I wanted to exist as a 0:17:52.476 --> 0:17:55.756 curator in the world. And in many cases I would 0:17:55.796 --> 0:18:01.476 suspect for that exhibit, the conversation involved lots of tensions 0:18:01.516 --> 0:18:06.476 and lots of contradictions, and of course it did, because 0:18:06.876 --> 0:18:10.996 life includes that. But in the space of an exhibition, 0:18:11.716 --> 0:18:14.756 in the space of the kind of narrative and exhibition creates, 0:18:15.036 --> 0:18:18.676 there was the possibility to wrestle with those contradictions, to 0:18:19.276 --> 0:18:22.796 be in the kind of conversation that could open up 0:18:22.876 --> 0:18:27.156 space for new ideas and ways of seeing. I really 0:18:27.196 --> 0:18:30.956 do believe in that way, that of thinking about this 0:18:30.996 --> 0:18:34.996 sort of space where we can engage as a community, 0:18:35.476 --> 0:18:39.796 in the sort of deep thinking about who we are, 0:18:39.996 --> 0:18:42.596 what we are, what makes us human, how we see 0:18:42.636 --> 0:18:46.756 each other, how we understand each other. You curated that 0:18:47.196 --> 0:18:52.916 exhibit while you were at the Whitney Museum, but ultimately 0:18:53.076 --> 0:19:00.236 you left the Whitney and you moved uptown back to 0:19:01.276 --> 0:19:06.196 the Studio Museum. What was your calculus when you made 0:19:06.236 --> 0:19:10.196 that decision. Yes, it was quite a moment, you know, 0:19:10.316 --> 0:19:15.236 of personal investigation and personal reckoning. Even in my own family, 0:19:15.316 --> 0:19:21.356 you know, my parents had very different views of this move. 0:19:21.476 --> 0:19:24.316 It was interesting to me that my parents did not agree. 0:19:24.756 --> 0:19:28.356 One of them thought very specifically that because I'd been 0:19:28.356 --> 0:19:30.156 at the Whitney for over a decade and it was 0:19:30.196 --> 0:19:33.716 the first African American curator there, that I was, you know, pathbreaker, 0:19:33.956 --> 0:19:40.396 that I should continue that within an institution that lived 0:19:40.476 --> 0:19:44.916 within that sense of power and privilege in history. And 0:19:45.676 --> 0:19:49.156 my other parent felt the opposite. My other parent felt 0:19:49.196 --> 0:19:52.996 that I had been educated from kindergarten all the way 0:19:53.036 --> 0:19:58.636 through college in prestigious, mainstream institutions that lived within this 0:19:58.796 --> 0:20:02.036 sense of power and privilege. And yes, I had had 0:20:02.036 --> 0:20:05.636 this incredible experience at the Whitney, but the reality was 0:20:05.716 --> 0:20:09.436 that my job at the Whitney ended. I was longer 0:20:09.476 --> 0:20:12.076 at the Whitney. I was considering what my next step 0:20:12.116 --> 0:20:16.516 would be. And when the call came that let me 0:20:16.596 --> 0:20:19.436 know that Lowry Stokes Sims was being appointed to be 0:20:19.476 --> 0:20:22.356 the director of the Studio Museum and was interested in 0:20:22.356 --> 0:20:25.876 a conversation with me to be her chief curator. That 0:20:26.436 --> 0:20:30.036 is all I needed, right the idea of what it 0:20:30.076 --> 0:20:33.796 would mean to work for Lowry, to work with Lowry 0:20:34.116 --> 0:20:37.956 at an institution that not only was incredibly important to 0:20:37.996 --> 0:20:43.036 me that early internship experience, but also to do it 0:20:43.516 --> 0:20:48.996 with Lowry at a moment which potentially, as we discussed 0:20:49.036 --> 0:20:53.996 what could be, could begin to imagine the museum at 0:20:54.036 --> 0:20:56.916 the next phase of its life. And here we are 0:20:56.996 --> 0:21:00.276 in twenty twenty two, and I am celebrating my twenty 0:21:00.316 --> 0:21:04.356 second year at the museum, and I am so proud 0:21:04.396 --> 0:21:07.676 of that and feel privileged to have had this experience. 0:21:07.956 --> 0:21:11.716 And it sounds like you are excited about not only 0:21:11.796 --> 0:21:15.036 what you went into, but where it has grown, where 0:21:15.036 --> 0:21:19.036 the Studio Museum has grown as the world's leading institution 0:21:19.116 --> 0:21:23.436 devoted to the visual art by artists of African descent. 0:21:24.196 --> 0:21:27.836 I don't think it's by chance that the Studio Museum 0:21:28.036 --> 0:21:31.956 is in Harlem. Was it important for you to be 0:21:32.036 --> 0:21:35.956 in the Harlem community in doing your work there? Well, 0:21:35.996 --> 0:21:38.716 it was important to me to be in an institution 0:21:38.956 --> 0:21:43.756 that formed itself around an idea of art and artists. 0:21:43.796 --> 0:21:47.116 That's where the Studio in our name comes from. That 0:21:47.316 --> 0:21:51.836 was created in a radical revisioning of what museum could 0:21:51.836 --> 0:21:56.076 be in our name, but cited itself in the Harlem 0:21:56.156 --> 0:22:01.036 community in the present of our founding, but also look 0:22:01.116 --> 0:22:04.596 back to the past of Harlem when we were founded. 0:22:04.796 --> 0:22:07.756 But also I believe that those who were involved in 0:22:07.796 --> 0:22:10.676 the creation of the Studio Museum and we're also making 0:22:10.716 --> 0:22:14.156 a stake into the future that exists for us now. 0:22:14.916 --> 0:22:17.116 It seems to me that what you're talking about in 0:22:17.196 --> 0:22:20.596 terms of the space and the Studio Museum was about 0:22:21.556 --> 0:22:26.516 was a revision of what museums can be and what 0:22:26.716 --> 0:22:30.316 they needed to be for the future. I don't think 0:22:30.316 --> 0:22:34.676 that everyone has learned the lesson because I think even 0:22:34.756 --> 0:22:41.076 today what we have and certainly historically museums have been 0:22:41.836 --> 0:22:47.636 oppressively white spaces where you visit it and you see 0:22:47.636 --> 0:22:50.316 things on the wall. You don't see the artists. You 0:22:50.396 --> 0:22:54.316 see the art. You may find out a few things 0:22:54.356 --> 0:22:56.956 about the artists, but the primary focus to me in 0:22:56.956 --> 0:22:59.916 my experience, is that the exhibits are about the art. 0:23:01.636 --> 0:23:07.316 They're primarily, let's say, located in white, upper class, middle 0:23:07.356 --> 0:23:11.516 class neighborhoods. We tend to think of the patrons as 0:23:11.596 --> 0:23:17.796 being primarily not people of color, and the exhibits, as 0:23:17.836 --> 0:23:23.076 well as the costliness of admissions into these spaces are 0:23:23.196 --> 0:23:28.076 somewhat prohibitive for many people. Is enough being done to 0:23:28.356 --> 0:23:32.756 revise what a museum can be. I mean, it seems 0:23:32.756 --> 0:23:35.716 to mean you've got a very inclusive approach to your work, 0:23:35.956 --> 0:23:38.316 but I'm not sure that we see that throughout the 0:23:38.396 --> 0:23:43.836 museum world. I think that museums can be different, and 0:23:44.036 --> 0:23:46.596 the reason I know that is because in looking at 0:23:46.636 --> 0:23:49.956 the history of museums, we have had many periods of 0:23:50.036 --> 0:23:55.036 reinvention and reevaluation of museums that have created two models. 0:23:55.076 --> 0:23:59.356 The museum that I'm privilegedly was part of that in 0:23:59.396 --> 0:24:02.156 the late sixties when museums were being protested here in 0:24:02.196 --> 0:24:05.676 New York City because of their exclusion of black and 0:24:05.756 --> 0:24:09.756 Latino and women artists, and these protests were being led 0:24:09.876 --> 0:24:13.716 primarily by artists but also concerned citizens, and these were 0:24:13.716 --> 0:24:16.716 the great museums in New York City. That while there 0:24:16.836 --> 0:24:20.356 was an effort in those protests to shift and change 0:24:20.396 --> 0:24:23.636 those institutions, there also was an effort to create new 0:24:23.716 --> 0:24:27.236 institutional models. And the Studio Museum in Harlem and Elms 0:24:27.396 --> 0:24:29.876 Debater here in New York came out of that moment. 0:24:30.636 --> 0:24:35.236 So is enough being done? There's much more work to 0:24:35.316 --> 0:24:38.676 be done, And I think the field acknowledges in this 0:24:38.716 --> 0:24:43.116 moment the necessity for that work. But it's not simply 0:24:43.156 --> 0:24:47.236 a case of revision. In some cases, it's a case 0:24:47.276 --> 0:24:50.116 of reinvention. So I think that we're also in a 0:24:50.156 --> 0:24:52.756 moment where we're going to see new models. You know, 0:24:52.916 --> 0:24:56.476 we see so many arts institutions now, for example, being 0:24:56.476 --> 0:25:01.236 started by artists taking away this idea of who and 0:25:01.316 --> 0:25:05.516 how we understand the formation of institution, but creating spaces 0:25:05.556 --> 0:25:09.636 that clearly reflect directly the needs of audience. We have 0:25:09.716 --> 0:25:14.156 to make the experience something that can be meaningful welcoming 0:25:14.476 --> 0:25:18.636 for everyone, right, And so does that mean have a 0:25:18.876 --> 0:25:24.596 more diversity in terms of the directors of the museum curators? 0:25:24.916 --> 0:25:29.196 How do you realize or reinvent or revise what we 0:25:29.316 --> 0:25:33.356 have now? I think all of the above and then some. 0:25:33.636 --> 0:25:35.956 But what I'll say about that is I think that 0:25:36.316 --> 0:25:39.596 in every situation it might be a different combination of 0:25:39.636 --> 0:25:43.516 those factors. I think that the other part of this 0:25:43.596 --> 0:25:47.316 that's most important to me is that while institutions exist 0:25:47.836 --> 0:25:51.276 in this way that they are broad, we also have 0:25:51.436 --> 0:25:57.276 to really acknowledge the specificity of who we are institutionally 0:25:57.476 --> 0:26:01.156 and lean into that as we try to reimagine and reinvent. 0:26:01.556 --> 0:26:05.956 So if we have an institutional mandate to create access, 0:26:06.356 --> 0:26:09.756 we have to then also take the steps to say, well, 0:26:09.956 --> 0:26:13.116 what does access look like and what is that experience 0:26:13.756 --> 0:26:18.636 in real terms when visitors come to the museum. We 0:26:18.716 --> 0:26:22.116 also have to think about, you know, how we make 0:26:22.316 --> 0:26:27.076 art and we make culture more truly accessible so that 0:26:27.196 --> 0:26:32.996 it has the opportunity to exist for all people and 0:26:33.276 --> 0:26:36.156 we can move to a place where we can see 0:26:36.276 --> 0:26:38.836 an art in a museum where the barriers that we 0:26:38.916 --> 0:26:42.836 know that still exists for many people don't continue to exist. 0:26:43.556 --> 0:26:49.396 So you are now at the Studio Museum. You are 0:26:49.436 --> 0:26:55.076 developing a new space in terms of a new building, 0:26:55.596 --> 0:26:58.436 which is so so, so exciting. Can you tell us 0:26:58.436 --> 0:27:03.636 how that came about? Yes, it is so exciting, and 0:27:03.916 --> 0:27:08.596 it came about really through the sort of vision I 0:27:08.636 --> 0:27:12.156 would say of all the directors of the Studio Museum 0:27:12.156 --> 0:27:15.156 that came before me. And the reason I say that 0:27:15.316 --> 0:27:20.796 is because the ambition for this institution began at its founding. 0:27:21.396 --> 0:27:25.476 And even though at our founding we were in a 0:27:25.596 --> 0:27:30.556 rented second story space over a liquor store on Fifth 0:27:30.556 --> 0:27:32.596 Avenue between one hundred twenty fifth Street one hundred and 0:27:32.596 --> 0:27:35.796 twenty six Street, the vision for what would be a 0:27:35.876 --> 0:27:40.116 state of the art, purpose built building to celebrate and 0:27:40.316 --> 0:27:44.116 stewart the work of black artists was always what I know, 0:27:44.716 --> 0:27:50.436 they imagine. So we embarked on this project, selected the 0:27:50.596 --> 0:27:54.876 architects Sir David Ajay to design the building. David known 0:27:54.956 --> 0:27:57.756 of course for his design of the National Museum of 0:27:57.756 --> 0:28:01.996 African American History and Culture, but significant also for us 0:28:01.996 --> 0:28:05.996 at the Studio Museum because of his ongoing work with 0:28:06.236 --> 0:28:10.196 art and artists specifically. And so we close the building, 0:28:10.396 --> 0:28:14.396 the old building in twenty eighteen and began a process 0:28:14.436 --> 0:28:18.636 that began with its demolition to now we are in 0:28:18.716 --> 0:28:22.436 construction on this new space and hope to be open 0:28:22.756 --> 0:28:26.756 in a few years. I listen to you speak and 0:28:26.836 --> 0:28:30.596 you talk about the history, the present, and the future. 0:28:31.236 --> 0:28:33.836 Do you ever hear from people who say, well, there 0:28:33.836 --> 0:28:36.596 are so many other problems that we're having in the 0:28:36.676 --> 0:28:41.156 black community in Harlem in the world, that is the 0:28:41.396 --> 0:28:46.156 museum the place to put this money. What I often 0:28:46.276 --> 0:28:52.276 hear is a nuanced and subtle understanding that this museum, 0:28:52.556 --> 0:28:57.876