WEBVTT - Arrested, Extradited, Charged

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<v Speaker 1>Arrested, extradited, charged. For four decades, these three words were

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<v Speaker 1>almost impossible to imagine in terms of Susanne Armstrong and

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<v Speaker 1>Susan Bartlett's murders. The fact that a sixty five year

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<v Speaker 1>old man would be arrested in Rome late in twenty

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<v Speaker 1>twenty four and extradited to Melbourne to be charged with

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<v Speaker 1>their double homicide was surely the stuff of a TV

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<v Speaker 1>crime show or an over the top murder mystery. But

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<v Speaker 1>a man is now accused of the killings, allegedly a

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<v Speaker 1>murder and rapist at just seventeen years of age. Fact

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<v Speaker 1>again seems stranger than fiction.

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<v Speaker 2>If someone that offered odds against that happening, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>any time up until it happened, I would have said

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<v Speaker 2>one hundred thousand to one, just astonishing against it.

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to the Easy Street Murders Episode seven. Arrested, Extradited, Charged.

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<v Speaker 1>My name's Helen Thomas, and let's update this saga that

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<v Speaker 1>started forty eight years ago. News of the stunning development

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<v Speaker 1>in the cold case became public just after nine am

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<v Speaker 1>on September twenty one, twenty twenty four. Perry Crumblus, a

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<v Speaker 1>dual Greek Australian citizen had been arrested at Rome Airport,

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<v Speaker 1>reportedly after Terpol was contacted by Australian authorities and a

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<v Speaker 1>long term watch by Melbourne detectives. Greek law had prevented

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<v Speaker 1>extradition from Athens, where he'd been living, as the alleged

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<v Speaker 1>defenses had occurred more than twenty years ago. Veteran crime

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<v Speaker 1>reporter John Silvester was first to report the arrest in

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<v Speaker 1>The Age newspaper that Saturday morning. Rival mass heads and

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<v Speaker 1>broadcast networks quickly followed up on the breakthrough and it

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<v Speaker 1>became signific news around Australia and the world. Andrew Rule,

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<v Speaker 1>senior crime reporter with The Herald's son, has been covering

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<v Speaker 1>the case for decades.

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<v Speaker 2>I was not working in Melbourne in nineteen seventy seven

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<v Speaker 2>when it happened, but I took a huge interest in

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<v Speaker 2>it even then because one of those victims, that is

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<v Speaker 2>Susan Armstrong, had a connection with my family.

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<v Speaker 3>My mother knew her parents, and it.

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<v Speaker 2>Didn't always sort of struck us that it was a

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<v Speaker 2>little bit close to home. So I took an interest,

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<v Speaker 2>and as a police reporter in the nineteen eighties, naturally

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<v Speaker 2>I came to write about easy Street fairly regularly. So

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<v Speaker 2>I've had a big interest in it for a long time.

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<v Speaker 4>And did you ever think it would come to this?

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<v Speaker 1>Did you ever think that after this length of time

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<v Speaker 1>this matter could even be brought to court as it

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<v Speaker 1>is now.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm moderately stunned that it has, that someone's been arrested,

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<v Speaker 2>that it will apparently go to court. It's an amazing

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<v Speaker 2>term of events, because these things accasionally happened, but it's.

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<v Speaker 3>Not the way that better, is it?

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<v Speaker 2>Usually these old cold cases remain that way.

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<v Speaker 4>So what did he do when he read that breaking

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<v Speaker 4>news story? In the age, I.

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<v Speaker 2>Might have called to the office at the Herald Son

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<v Speaker 2>and I sat down and wrote a place basically off

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<v Speaker 2>the top of my head, because I know pretty well

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<v Speaker 2>facts as the matter, backgrounding it for people so that

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<v Speaker 2>they can recall exactly what happened when and who's heaven

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<v Speaker 2>the zoo, Because of course it's so long ago that

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<v Speaker 2>I'd say anyone younger than sort of fifty five really

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<v Speaker 2>has no first hand memory of it happening. It's ancient

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<v Speaker 2>history for two generations. For the generation that's now leaving

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<v Speaker 2>school and going to university, and probably their parents, they

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<v Speaker 2>don't really know anything about it except what they've read

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<v Speaker 2>and heard second hand over time.

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<v Speaker 1>Within days of his arrest at Rome's Leonardo da Vinci

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<v Speaker 1>Airport and subsequent detention in the city's Regiina Charley jail,

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<v Speaker 1>Perry Carumbolus agreed to be extradited to Australia. At the time,

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<v Speaker 1>public defender Serena Tucci told the media that Corumbalus said

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<v Speaker 1>he wanted to return to quote explain everything unquote, describing

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<v Speaker 1>him as distressed, surprised, and worried about his arrest. According

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<v Speaker 1>to the Age, the lawyer said Corumblus told authorities he'd

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<v Speaker 1>cooperate with the extradition, saying he had exercised his right

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<v Speaker 1>to remain silent other than to say he was innocent

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<v Speaker 1>and give his consent for extradition. It's been alleged that

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<v Speaker 1>DNA evidence may be put before the jury, a scientific

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<v Speaker 1>tool police didn't have when the two suits were killed

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<v Speaker 1>back in nineteen seventy seven.

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<v Speaker 2>We don't want to speculate. Let's speak hypothetically here. Let's

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<v Speaker 2>not talk about this case, Let's talk about a similar case.

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<v Speaker 2>I think DNA has been shown to be fallible several

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<v Speaker 2>times in this state alone. People have been locked up

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<v Speaker 2>on bungled DNA evidence before for serious crimes, and therefore

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<v Speaker 2>I think that the bench the judiciary will be reluctant

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<v Speaker 2>to see someone convicted on DNA alone, and that that woman,

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<v Speaker 2>the prosecution and the police will be working very hard too.

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<v Speaker 2>I would imagine look for other corroborating evidence if there

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<v Speaker 2>is any.

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<v Speaker 3>That's a big if, Helen.

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<v Speaker 1>What we do know is that Perry Crumblis was a

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<v Speaker 1>student at the same school in Collingwood where Susan Bartler taught,

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<v Speaker 1>and he and his family didn't live far from the

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<v Speaker 1>Little Worker's cottage that she shared with Susanne Armstrong at

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<v Speaker 1>one four seven Easy Street. The teenager was not listed

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<v Speaker 1>on the homicide squad's original list of eight persons of interest. Nevertheless,

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<v Speaker 1>his name remained in the file, and when a million

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<v Speaker 1>dollar reward was offered for information in twenty seventeen and

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<v Speaker 1>a fresh inquiry launched, he came under scrutiny, along with

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<v Speaker 1>one hundred and thirty others in that old dossier. Three

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<v Speaker 1>years later, a charge sheet and warrant to arrest was

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<v Speaker 1>signed by Detective Paul Rowe on May nineteen, twenty twenty,

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<v Speaker 1>alleging Pery Courumblis had murdered Susan and Suzanne Quote between

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<v Speaker 1>the tenth day of January and the thirteenth day of

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<v Speaker 1>January nineteen seventy seven. It also alleged that he had

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<v Speaker 1>carnal knowledge with Susanne Armstrong without her consent during that

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<v Speaker 1>same period, and stated the accused resides overseas, is avoiding

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<v Speaker 1>apprehension and his extradition will be sought. At three twenty

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<v Speaker 1>three pm on December fourth, twenty twenty four, Corumbalus entered

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<v Speaker 1>Court Room Number one in Melbourne's Magistrates Court, charged with

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<v Speaker 1>the murders of the two young women. Detective Roe had

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<v Speaker 1>traveled back with him to Australia on his extradition flight

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<v Speaker 1>and was in court that afternoon too, alongside members of

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<v Speaker 1>the Armstrong and Bartlett families. Perry Courumblis is due to

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<v Speaker 1>appear again at the end of February for what's called

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<v Speaker 1>a committal mention. Prominent criminal lawyer Tony Isaacs has an

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<v Speaker 1>expert perspective of the legal process now unfolding.

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<v Speaker 5>Helen, I understand that mister Corumbolus is facing a committal

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<v Speaker 5>mention hearing at the Magistrate's Court in late February. He

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<v Speaker 5>was charged and brought before the court in December. Once

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<v Speaker 5>the prosecution charge a person, they are entitled to the

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<v Speaker 5>presumption of innocence and the burden of proof rests with

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<v Speaker 5>the prosecution. And these are phrases that people hear about.

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<v Speaker 5>They see these sorts of things on the TV, and

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<v Speaker 5>they are real. They are doctrines in our criminal justice process.

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<v Speaker 5>So the prosecution must prove beyond reasonable doubt that mister

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<v Speaker 5>Coronblis is guilty of the murders. Mister Coronbalis does not

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<v Speaker 5>have to prove anything. What the defense does is raises

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<v Speaker 5>a reasonable doubt and doesn't have to do anything more.

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<v Speaker 5>The prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he's guilty.

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<v Speaker 3>I should say I know that for mister Coronblis.

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<v Speaker 5>I know nothing about the case, and I'm only talking

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<v Speaker 5>in general terms about process.

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<v Speaker 1>The next step in this process involves a brief of

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<v Speaker 1>evidence being given to the defense team.

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<v Speaker 5>The brief of evidence includes all of the evidence on

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<v Speaker 5>which the prosecution seeks to rely to prove its case

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<v Speaker 5>beyond a reasonable doubt, and mister Cromlis is entitled to

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<v Speaker 5>the brief of evidence because of disclosure rules. An accused

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<v Speaker 5>person is entitled to know the case against them, and

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<v Speaker 5>that would include statements by civilians, statements made by police,

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<v Speaker 5>statements made by experts, a transcript of any record of interview,

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<v Speaker 5>and copies of any exhibits that are being relied on

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<v Speaker 5>by the prosecution. So all of that is given to

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<v Speaker 5>the defense lawyers who would then be asking, typically for

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<v Speaker 5>disclosure of further material, which is really everything behind the

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<v Speaker 5>statements that are given. It would include the whole investigative

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<v Speaker 5>file and all the data held by Victoria Police. For example,

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<v Speaker 5>a police officer will have made a statement. The defense

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<v Speaker 5>would most likely then say, well, we want all of

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<v Speaker 5>the notes and diary entries and running sheets filled in

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<v Speaker 5>by that police officer during the investigation, which is what

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<v Speaker 5>leads up to the person making the statement. So the

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<v Speaker 5>defense would want all the background to that being, all

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<v Speaker 5>of the notes, probably want all of the correspondence between

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<v Speaker 5>police officers and witnesses and police officers between each other.

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<v Speaker 5>The expert reports would be statements, but there would be

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<v Speaker 5>notes and files behind them that again the defense would

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<v Speaker 5>call for.

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<v Speaker 4>And they're entitled to see.

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<v Speaker 5>Yes, yes, So I understand, for example, in this case

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<v Speaker 5>that the scientist who has analyzed the DNA samples and

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<v Speaker 5>provided the report. There expert report, their whole file will

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<v Speaker 5>be required, all of their notes and their complete analysis,

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<v Speaker 5>which could run for hundreds of pages.

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<v Speaker 3>To do a complete DNA analysis.

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<v Speaker 5>Going back, because this was nineteen seventy seven, probably it

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<v Speaker 5>would either be in the form of blood of a

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<v Speaker 5>suspect or seminole fluid. In this instance, I understand there

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<v Speaker 5>is an allegation of a rape. Because it was nineteen

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<v Speaker 5>seventy seven, there were not sophisticated methods of taking DNA

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<v Speaker 5>because it was simply not used in criminal prosecutions. So

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<v Speaker 5>how the DNA was taken, how it was stored, how

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<v Speaker 5>it's been examined, the chain of process of handling the samples,

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<v Speaker 5>all of those things would be asked for by the

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<v Speaker 5>defense and examined by the defense. So after the brief

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<v Speaker 5>is served in mid January, the defense would seek a

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<v Speaker 5>lot of material from the prosecute. In this instance, the

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<v Speaker 5>homicide squad would know what the defense wants and they've

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<v Speaker 5>probably provided it. They're probably giving it with the brief.

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<v Speaker 1>Another formal move in this case involves a document known

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<v Speaker 1>as a Form thirty.

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<v Speaker 5>Two before the committal mentioned in late February, a document

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<v Speaker 5>known as a Form thirty two.

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<v Speaker 3>Is filed by the parties.

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<v Speaker 5>It's created by the defense seeking to call witnesses at

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<v Speaker 5>a later committal hearing. You don't have an automatic right

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<v Speaker 5>to call all of the witnesses. The defense has to

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<v Speaker 5>establish for each witness that it wants to cross examine

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<v Speaker 5>an issue or issues from that witness's statement that are

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<v Speaker 5>issues in the case identification. For example, so a police

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<v Speaker 5>officer might have come to the crime scene and done

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<v Speaker 5>certain things, so there might be issues of examination of

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<v Speaker 5>the crime scene. And in the Form thirty two, if

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<v Speaker 5>you want to cross examine the police officer, you have

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<v Speaker 5>to identify the issues you want to ask about the

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<v Speaker 5>relevance of that person's evidence to the issues, and why

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<v Speaker 5>it's justified to ask.

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<v Speaker 3>That person questions.

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<v Speaker 5>At a committal, a magistrate is not going to simply

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<v Speaker 5>allow the defense to call all of the prosecution witnesses.

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<v Speaker 5>There would be in this case dozens and dozens of witnesses,

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<v Speaker 5>so you have to justify why you want to call them.

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<v Speaker 5>So the prosecution you file the form of the prosecution,

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<v Speaker 5>who then respond by saying whether they object to any

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<v Speaker 5>of these witnesses being cross examined, and then a magistrate

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<v Speaker 5>determines which witnesses can be cross examined, and at that

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<v Speaker 5>point it becomes administrative again in determining how long a

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<v Speaker 5>committal hearing would take and then booking it in according

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<v Speaker 5>to availability of court time and availability of witnesses, etc.

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<v Speaker 3>Etc.

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<v Speaker 1>In other words, after waiting nearly fifty years for justice

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<v Speaker 1>for Susan Bartlett and Susanne Armstrong, the matter won't be rushed.

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<v Speaker 1>That's reassuring. But what timeframe are we looking at? How

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<v Speaker 1>long will this case take? Tony Isaacs, who's been practicing

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<v Speaker 1>criminal law in Melbourne for more than forty years, maintains

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<v Speaker 1>that doctrines in our criminal justice process are sacrisanct, and

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<v Speaker 1>that includes criminal mentions.

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<v Speaker 3>They're generally short.

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<v Speaker 5>If the defense are requiring ten witnesses, there might be

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<v Speaker 5>objections to two of them and that would be discussed

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<v Speaker 5>in court before the magistrate. Committal mentions can sometimes be adjourned.

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<v Speaker 5>For example, all of the disclosure material may not have

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<v Speaker 5>been served, but given that this is a very old matter,

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<v Speaker 5>I would think that the prosecution would have this material

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<v Speaker 5>ready to go.

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<v Speaker 1>Isaac's expects this matter will follow the traditional route to

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<v Speaker 1>a committal hearing.

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<v Speaker 3>It looks as so that's the process for this case.

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<v Speaker 5>But there is a process where persons charged with murder

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<v Speaker 5>can opt to fast track their hearing into the Supreme

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<v Speaker 5>Court and skip the committal process, and they can cross

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<v Speaker 5>examine some witnesses before a judge separate to the trial,

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<v Speaker 5>so that you would have a mini committal if you like,

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<v Speaker 5>or a committal in the.

0:14:22.720 --> 0:14:25.280
<v Speaker 3>Supreme Court, and it can't be done until after the

0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:27.720
<v Speaker 3>service of the brief, So we have to wait and

0:14:27.720 --> 0:14:28.400
<v Speaker 3>see on that one.

0:14:28.440 --> 0:14:31.480
<v Speaker 1>Can I just ask you finally, if say this matter

0:14:31.560 --> 0:14:34.920
<v Speaker 1>does go to a committal hearing in the magistrate's court,

0:14:35.440 --> 0:14:36.560
<v Speaker 1>how long does that run?

0:14:37.080 --> 0:14:40.840
<v Speaker 5>Well, it could be that it would take six months

0:14:40.960 --> 0:14:43.080
<v Speaker 5>or more to book it in because you've got to

0:14:43.120 --> 0:14:46.200
<v Speaker 5>wait for availability of court time. Let's say it was

0:14:46.200 --> 0:14:49.840
<v Speaker 5>booked for a five day hearing. The court's got to

0:14:49.960 --> 0:14:53.880
<v Speaker 5>find five days, and for it to find five days,

0:14:53.880 --> 0:14:56.520
<v Speaker 5>it might be six or eight months away. It's a

0:14:56.560 --> 0:15:00.240
<v Speaker 5>high profile case, it might get some priority, but I

0:15:00.280 --> 0:15:02.760
<v Speaker 5>would think a committal would be much later this year

0:15:03.640 --> 0:15:07.240
<v Speaker 5>if that's the way they go. An accused person does

0:15:07.280 --> 0:15:09.480
<v Speaker 5>not have to run a committal hearing. They can come

0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:11.840
<v Speaker 5>to the committal MENSI and say we're not going to

0:15:12.120 --> 0:15:14.200
<v Speaker 5>have a committal, We're just going to go straight to

0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:15.520
<v Speaker 5>trial and the Supreme Court.

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<v Speaker 4>And if that happened, could that happen this year?

0:15:18.040 --> 0:15:21.360
<v Speaker 5>That would be a matter for the registrars and the

0:15:21.400 --> 0:15:25.400
<v Speaker 5>people running the Supreme Court list It's possible, but probably not.

0:15:25.480 --> 0:15:27.440
<v Speaker 3>There would be a lot of trials in front of it.

0:15:27.680 --> 0:15:30.320
<v Speaker 1>In other words, no matter what happens from this point

0:15:30.360 --> 0:15:33.120
<v Speaker 1>going forward, say, from the committal mentioned at the end

0:15:33.160 --> 0:15:36.960
<v Speaker 1>of February, this matter is not going to be over quickly,

0:15:37.480 --> 0:15:38.840
<v Speaker 1>I guess, nor shouldn't they.

0:15:38.880 --> 0:15:40.840
<v Speaker 3>No, no, it won't be over quickly.

0:15:41.160 --> 0:15:43.840
<v Speaker 5>I mean typically we say to clients who come into

0:15:43.880 --> 0:15:47.080
<v Speaker 5>our office, if they're charged with indictable offenses that are

0:15:47.160 --> 0:15:49.160
<v Speaker 5>going to end up in a trial in the county

0:15:49.240 --> 0:15:54.240
<v Speaker 5>or Supreme Court, from the time they charged, they're probably

0:15:54.280 --> 0:15:57.240
<v Speaker 5>eighteen months away from their trial date.

0:15:58.840 --> 0:16:01.880
<v Speaker 1>When Perry Crumblus walked into Court one in early December

0:16:01.960 --> 0:16:06.040
<v Speaker 1>last year, he moved slowly and looked tired, probably not

0:16:06.120 --> 0:16:08.640
<v Speaker 1>surprising given the long flight from Rome that had landed

0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:11.640
<v Speaker 1>less than twenty four hours before, and having been formally

0:16:11.680 --> 0:16:17.080
<v Speaker 1>interviewed by detectives earlier that day before being charged. Sitting

0:16:17.080 --> 0:16:21.240
<v Speaker 1>between two security officers and behind glass, he watched Magistrate

0:16:21.320 --> 0:16:25.280
<v Speaker 1>Leon Fluxman intently, not looking at Susan's brother Martin or

0:16:25.320 --> 0:16:30.040
<v Speaker 1>Suzanne's sister Gail, who were seated behind the prosecutor. Did

0:16:30.040 --> 0:16:32.760
<v Speaker 1>he notice the young TV reporters taking notes on their

0:16:32.800 --> 0:16:35.040
<v Speaker 1>phones at the back of the court, or the soft

0:16:35.040 --> 0:16:38.800
<v Speaker 1>whisper of other journalist's laptop keys. Was he aware this

0:16:38.880 --> 0:16:42.640
<v Speaker 1>deceptively low key proceeding held the keen focus of international

0:16:42.640 --> 0:16:47.200
<v Speaker 1>news outlets. When asked if he understood his remand conditions,

0:16:47.400 --> 0:16:55.600
<v Speaker 1>Corumbalus nodded twice and answered quietly yes. The accused and

0:16:55.680 --> 0:16:58.160
<v Speaker 1>his defense lawyer Bill doug Will returned to the Melbourne

0:16:58.200 --> 0:17:00.880
<v Speaker 1>Magistrate's Court on Wednesday every twenty six