WEBVTT - The Devil's Advocate (1997) with Sarah Marshall 0:00:00.960 --> 0:00:03.920 On the Bechdel Cast, the questions asked if movies have 0:00:04.080 --> 0:00:07.920 women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, 0:00:08.000 --> 0:00:11.879 or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, zeph and 0:00:12.080 --> 0:00:15.280 Beast start changing it with the Bechdel Cast. 0:00:16.239 --> 0:00:21.840 Behold, Jamie, I send you out as sheep amidst the wolves. Well, 0:00:22.040 --> 0:00:24.880 I'm the devil and your duddy. 0:00:25.000 --> 0:00:29.040 Me when I'm Keanu and from Florida. Well that's wild, 0:00:29.240 --> 0:00:35.680 that's you're my father the devil, like sir, Come on, 0:00:36.000 --> 0:00:39.440 come on. I like the choice. Every choice in this 0:00:39.520 --> 0:00:41.720 movie is a choice. 0:00:41.960 --> 0:00:42.680 It certainly is. 0:00:42.800 --> 0:00:46.680 The choices are taking place four thousand times a second. 0:00:47.360 --> 0:00:51.320 I thought you were gonna say my favorite sin Is podcast, 0:00:52.000 --> 0:00:54.400 you turn into al Pacino and then say my favorite 0:00:54.400 --> 0:00:57.680 cit Is podcast. Also, can this movie pass the Bechdel test? 0:00:57.800 --> 0:01:01.640 If everyone is secretly al Pacino? If al Pacino is 0:01:01.720 --> 0:01:06.319 lurking beneath the skin of we are to believe like 0:01:07.040 --> 0:01:11.880 seventy percent of the characters on screen, can it pass? Right? 0:01:12.000 --> 0:01:12.200 Well? 0:01:12.280 --> 0:01:12.560 Is it that? 0:01:12.720 --> 0:01:15.960 Can Jackie? And unless she's al Pacino? 0:01:16.720 --> 0:01:19.760 Well, I was like, okay, is it al Pacino infiltrating 0:01:20.000 --> 0:01:23.560 everyone's bodies? Or are they just like I don't know 0:01:23.640 --> 0:01:28.600 little minor demons. Literally, they've sold their soul to him. 0:01:28.760 --> 0:01:33.120 Who knows, who knows, you know, who might know? Andrew Niederman, 0:01:33.600 --> 0:01:40.760 the writer who brought you Pin What Yes? Pin, Yes, exactly. Yeah, 0:01:40.800 --> 0:01:43.120 And he's still alive. He's eighty four. He's in Palm Springs. 0:01:43.120 --> 0:01:46.280 We could get in the car right now and be like, wow, 0:01:46.520 --> 0:01:49.440 is everyone al Pacino? He also, I mean, I think 0:01:50.120 --> 0:01:53.960 according to his scholarly journal Wikipedia page, The Devil's Advocate 0:01:54.000 --> 0:01:56.960 is his most famous novel that got adapted. But he 0:01:57.040 --> 0:01:58.520 also wrote Child's Play. 0:01:59.360 --> 0:02:02.320 Oh that it's more famous than The Devil's Advocate. 0:02:02.080 --> 0:02:04.520 Unless he wrote a book called Child's Play that's not 0:02:04.640 --> 0:02:07.600 Child's Play, in which case I redact and he shouldn't 0:02:07.640 --> 0:02:10.079 have done that. He also wrote a book in two 0:02:10.080 --> 0:02:12.760 thousand and three called The Baby Squad. I had fun 0:02:12.880 --> 0:02:17.560 on his on his sicopedia page. Oh goodness, Andrew Niederman's 0:02:17.720 --> 0:02:19.760 The Baby Squad. Anyways. 0:02:19.840 --> 0:02:23.200 Well, then we also have Tony Gilroy, yes of and 0:02:23.360 --> 0:02:25.760 or Fame, Indoor Fame, writing the screenplay. 0:02:25.960 --> 0:02:29.080 I mean, I hope they cut him a big old 0:02:29.200 --> 0:02:33.200 check for this. We love the Gilroy bros. On this 0:02:33.320 --> 0:02:37.760 podcast indeed. Okay, okay, we got to get our guests 0:02:37.840 --> 0:02:40.200 in here. Just one of the greatest of all time 0:02:40.280 --> 0:02:44.040 who brought us one of the movies of all time? 0:02:44.360 --> 0:02:46.880 Yeah, I mean, should we introduce ourselves first? 0:02:47.160 --> 0:02:49.960 Or I guess so? I guess so. Sorry, we haven't 0:02:49.960 --> 0:02:51.640 recorded in two weeks, so I forget how to do 0:02:51.720 --> 0:02:54.120 my job. So welcome to the Bexel Cast. My name 0:02:54.160 --> 0:02:55.080 is Jamie Loftis. 0:02:55.320 --> 0:02:57.480 My name is Caitlin Jonte. This is our show where 0:02:57.480 --> 0:03:00.560 we examine movies through an intersectional feminist leanne, using the 0:03:00.600 --> 0:03:04.680 Bechdel test as a jumping off point. What is it though? 0:03:04.840 --> 0:03:08.920 The Bechtel test is what a woman talks to al Pacino. 0:03:09.960 --> 0:03:11.959 Alison Bechdel came up with the Bechdel test back in 0:03:12.000 --> 0:03:15.760 the eighties for her comic collection Texs to Watch Out For. 0:03:15.919 --> 0:03:18.840 Originally a queer metric that was sort of written as 0:03:19.040 --> 0:03:23.560 a one off joke, has since been applied more broadly 0:03:24.160 --> 0:03:27.960 in the mainstream and does not at any point address 0:03:29.040 --> 0:03:33.000 what if someone's secretly al Pacino? True. However, there is 0:03:33.360 --> 0:03:36.560 a lot to talk about with this movie in general, 0:03:36.640 --> 0:03:40.920 and I was actually like, I can't say, pleasantly surprised 0:03:41.040 --> 0:03:43.080 in good faith here, but I could say I was 0:03:43.160 --> 0:03:46.160 surprised at how how much there is to talk about 0:03:46.240 --> 0:03:48.320 with regards to gender. 0:03:48.880 --> 0:03:49.480 I agree. 0:03:49.720 --> 0:03:52.120 So let's get our returning guest. I'm like, is it 0:03:52.200 --> 0:03:55.080 her fifth time? Do we have to send her a jacket? Unclear? 0:03:55.480 --> 0:03:58.080 Perhaps you know her. She's the host of You're Wrong 0:03:58.120 --> 0:04:01.880 About You Are Good and the podcast The Devil. You 0:04:02.000 --> 0:04:03.840 know it's Sarah Marshall. 0:04:04.400 --> 0:04:07.520 Hello, I would love a jacket or any piece of 0:04:07.760 --> 0:04:08.840 maybe a goblet. 0:04:09.120 --> 0:04:11.520 Oh my god, putting that out there. Do you not 0:04:11.800 --> 0:04:14.520 have any goblets? I feel like you have to own 0:04:14.800 --> 0:04:18.720 a goblet. I feel like it's pink and opal lighte. Yeah, 0:04:18.760 --> 0:04:19.039 I do. 0:04:19.200 --> 0:04:22.880 You're right you've had putting out of one of those probably, yeah, 0:04:22.920 --> 0:04:26.120 but I need a bigger one that's engraved. 0:04:26.760 --> 0:04:27.120 Yeah. 0:04:27.160 --> 0:04:30.880 And this certainly is a movie. 0:04:30.480 --> 0:04:35.480 I just am so excited to talk. But first, before 0:04:35.480 --> 0:04:38.320 we talk about the movie, we want to hear about 0:04:38.440 --> 0:04:42.080 the podcast. I'm so excited it's finally coming out, and 0:04:42.160 --> 0:04:46.839 obviously it is in conversation with this documentary we're covering today. 0:04:47.040 --> 0:04:50.200 Yeah, that's true. It is a documentary, this biopic, Yes, 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:52.000 this pick of the Devil. 0:04:52.440 --> 0:04:54.159 Yeah, So tell us about the devil. 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:57.800 You know, well, I'm so happy to be here talking 0:04:57.839 --> 0:05:00.480 about it with you and bringing it out into the 0:05:00.560 --> 0:05:06.120 world like my very own al Pacino spawn. But this 0:05:06.160 --> 0:05:08.080 is a show that I've been Jamie, We've been talking 0:05:08.120 --> 0:05:09.960 about for a long time. I've been working on for 0:05:10.040 --> 0:05:14.719 a long time with amazing producer Mary Stephan Hagen, and 0:05:15.320 --> 0:05:19.440 it's a close up look at the Satanic Panic. It's 0:05:19.480 --> 0:05:23.640 coming out from CBC Podcasts, and it's the kind of 0:05:23.640 --> 0:05:25.040 thing that I've been wanting to do for such a 0:05:25.120 --> 0:05:28.400 long time where you get to kind of not just 0:05:28.600 --> 0:05:32.279 try and tell the story of how the Satanic Panic 0:05:32.360 --> 0:05:35.600 worked structurally and how it kind of spread across North 0:05:35.600 --> 0:05:39.440 America and then you know, to beyond, but also to 0:05:39.480 --> 0:05:42.360 tell that story by zooming in and having conversations by 0:05:42.960 --> 0:05:46.280 individual people who were affected by it and who were 0:05:46.320 --> 0:05:49.760 caught up in it. And so our first episode opens 0:05:49.760 --> 0:05:52.120 with the story of a woman who had the gall 0:05:52.279 --> 0:05:55.160 to go to small town Kentucky to try and teach 0:05:55.200 --> 0:05:59.560 photography to teenagers and was quite literally chased out of 0:05:59.600 --> 0:06:03.360 town based on allegations that she was looking for blue eyed, 0:06:03.400 --> 0:06:06.599 blonde children to sacrifice. And boy, does that feel like 0:06:06.600 --> 0:06:09.920 a story that could be happening this week in America. 0:06:11.520 --> 0:06:12.080 Very true. 0:06:12.480 --> 0:06:17.080 Yes, unfortunately. I was like, so, I mean, because I've learned, 0:06:17.080 --> 0:06:19.800 I mean really, everything I know about the Satanic Panic 0:06:19.920 --> 0:06:23.440 has been from you and from your work before we 0:06:23.520 --> 0:06:26.400 knew each other over the years, and I'm just I'm so, 0:06:27.240 --> 0:06:31.200 I'm so excited. It's an opus of sorts and it's weird. 0:06:31.240 --> 0:06:34.360 If like, in the five years that I've been learning 0:06:34.400 --> 0:06:37.800 about the Satanic Panic from you, it felt like, wow, 0:06:38.000 --> 0:06:42.280 well we've moved on as a society. Yeah, since then, 0:06:42.520 --> 0:06:45.679 but now it's back. It's very much back. 0:06:46.000 --> 0:06:51.640 Oh yeah, it's back. Like penny Wise, our pin one 0:06:51.680 --> 0:06:54.960 could say our pin one could say pin a book, 0:06:55.000 --> 0:06:56.919 which there is an ad for in one of the 0:06:56.920 --> 0:07:01.440 mass market paperback editions of Michelle Remembers. Yeah, a book 0:07:01.480 --> 0:07:04.480 whose kind of backstory we get into on this show too. 0:07:04.560 --> 0:07:07.880 And yeah, I feel like it we you know, look 0:07:07.920 --> 0:07:10.120 at how it's moving into the present day. But I 0:07:10.120 --> 0:07:13.320 feel like one of the things I love about studying 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:15.480 history and that shaming I think is such a big 0:07:15.480 --> 0:07:19.400 part of your work too, is that by learning about 0:07:19.600 --> 0:07:22.200 kind of the things that people have gone through before 0:07:22.280 --> 0:07:26.280 and also what people have survived before, it's more thinkable 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:30.080 to try and get a grasp on how to proceed 0:07:30.120 --> 0:07:34.360 and how to be helpful in the raging moral panics 0:07:34.400 --> 0:07:34.920 of today. 0:07:35.400 --> 0:07:37.320 It's true, Absolutely, it's true. 0:07:37.560 --> 0:07:40.520 Well, we're so excited to start listening. I know that 0:07:40.600 --> 0:07:44.520 our listeners and your listeners. It's kind of just a circle. Yeah, 0:07:44.560 --> 0:07:49.520 and so everyone's a big pot luck exactly. So if 0:07:49.560 --> 0:07:52.720 you haven't started listening already, now is the time. And 0:07:52.760 --> 0:07:56.520 if you haven't seen The Devil's Advocate, well, now is 0:07:56.560 --> 0:07:58.960 the time to pirate it on one, two, three movies, 0:07:59.000 --> 0:08:01.280 which is what I did for this episode. 0:08:01.400 --> 0:08:04.760 Same, or to watch the TV edit on YouTube, which 0:08:04.840 --> 0:08:06.840 is we'll take you right back to watching it on 0:08:06.920 --> 0:08:08.720 TNT in two thousand. 0:08:08.360 --> 0:08:12.520 And three, knowing me way Yeah, okay, So to get 0:08:12.560 --> 0:08:21.040 into The Devil's Advocate in nineteen ninety seven by Taylor Hackford, Titanic. 0:08:20.600 --> 0:08:21.760 Year, the Year of Titanic. 0:08:22.000 --> 0:08:25.240 Yeah, he also directed An Officer and a Gentleman and 0:08:25.400 --> 0:08:29.080 Ray kind of a random assortment of movies from the sky. Yeah, 0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:32.800 and he's got style. He's got style. Apparently he's got 0:08:33.200 --> 0:08:36.720 beef with al Pacino as well. I saw that, But 0:08:37.120 --> 0:08:40.720 in any case, nineteen ninety seven movie Sarah what is 0:08:40.720 --> 0:08:42.840 your history with this movie? 0:08:43.240 --> 0:08:46.520 Well, I mean watching this did take me back to 0:08:47.320 --> 0:08:50.120 a seeing bits of it on TNT after school in 0:08:50.160 --> 0:08:53.640 like two thousand and three, and then I remember watching 0:08:53.679 --> 0:08:56.040 this in full the only other time I've done this 0:08:57.200 --> 0:08:59.360 when I was living in Madison, so it would have 0:08:59.400 --> 0:09:01.360 been twenty six and at the time, I was like, 0:09:01.440 --> 0:09:04.320 I'm going to be a lawyer, and I was watching 0:09:04.360 --> 0:09:06.520 a lot of just lawyer movies, and I feel like 0:09:06.600 --> 0:09:08.800 this was just like one of my list of lawyer 0:09:08.880 --> 0:09:11.640 movies to watch, the same way that I watched like 0:09:12.920 --> 0:09:18.400 The Firm that week and The Verdict, etc. Yeah, it's 0:09:18.400 --> 0:09:22.040 always it's a lot of the something you know. The 0:09:22.600 --> 0:09:25.520 another movie I watched during this period, which I fail 0:09:25.640 --> 0:09:28.920 very nostalgic for is Primal Fear, which is such a fun, 0:09:29.200 --> 0:09:35.240 ridiculous experience, and both that movie and this movie, interestingly, 0:09:35.280 --> 0:09:39.640 in a post Ojay world, are about criminal defense attorneys 0:09:39.640 --> 0:09:45.000 who are shocked, shocked when they realized that their clients 0:09:45.040 --> 0:09:45.640 are guilty. 0:09:45.760 --> 0:09:51.000 And it's like, you know, what is like wha. 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:57.200 Lawyers generally have some suspicion that maybe they're defending a 0:09:57.200 --> 0:10:01.040 guilty person. They're not like this surprise, I wouldn't. 0:10:00.679 --> 0:10:04.440 Say someone who's considered to be a law prodigy. I 0:10:04.480 --> 0:10:08.160 was like, you don't get right that far in you know, 0:10:08.320 --> 0:10:13.080 non public defense law with the idea that everyone you 0:10:13.160 --> 0:10:16.280 defend it like it just it just doesn't make sense. 0:10:16.200 --> 0:10:18.760 Unless there's a cut scene where the senior partners are 0:10:18.760 --> 0:10:23.560 like handsome boy, but it sure is stupid, which I 0:10:23.600 --> 0:10:26.800 would buy for this character, right, And so yeah, I 0:10:26.800 --> 0:10:30.680 remember watching it and finding it like really over the 0:10:30.720 --> 0:10:34.400 top and odd and revealing to me this interesting idea 0:10:34.480 --> 0:10:38.840 that to defend someone's constitutional rights is evil, which I 0:10:38.840 --> 0:10:41.800 think is a very interesting sort of like nineties tough 0:10:41.800 --> 0:10:45.040 on crime throughout an American pop culture. But what I 0:10:45.040 --> 0:10:48.040 also remember is that towards the end, you're like, what 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:51.120 is happening? And I was so delighted to return to 0:10:51.160 --> 0:10:54.360 it for this show and have the same reaction, which 0:10:54.400 --> 0:10:56.440 is that in the last half hour or so, you're like, 0:10:56.520 --> 0:10:59.360 I feel like I'm having a stroke, but in the 0:10:59.400 --> 0:11:01.760 best way possible, at least for me. 0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:04.840 I mean, no, I had the same experience. 0:11:05.200 --> 0:11:09.760 Yeah, I really like, I don't know, Kaitlyn, what's your 0:11:09.800 --> 0:11:10.960 history with this movie? 0:11:11.480 --> 0:11:14.360 I had never seen it, nor did I really know 0:11:14.480 --> 0:11:17.320 anything about it. It was not really on my radar. 0:11:17.559 --> 0:11:19.920 I thought it was that movie The Devil's Own which 0:11:19.920 --> 0:11:21.360 also came out in ninety seven. 0:11:21.440 --> 0:11:24.120 What is that? I thought it was Meet Joe Black. 0:11:24.600 --> 0:11:28.480 Oh okay, so we're confusing it for different confused Brad 0:11:28.480 --> 0:11:29.120 Pitt movies. 0:11:29.200 --> 0:11:32.800 Wagest America had themes in nineteen ninety seven. 0:11:32.640 --> 0:11:35.760 It's true. But yeah, so I was like, oh, yeah, 0:11:35.760 --> 0:11:38.520 it's that Brad Pitt Harrison Ford movie. Wait, no, it's not. 0:11:39.080 --> 0:11:42.840 And I it was the Brad Pitt Anthony Hopkins movie, right, 0:11:43.040 --> 0:11:44.960 And Brad Pitt was almost in this movie. 0:11:45.080 --> 0:11:47.200 If you hear about the Devil, you just feel like 0:11:47.200 --> 0:11:49.280 it's gotta be Brad Pitt. Yeah, he probably would have 0:11:49.280 --> 0:11:50.880 had an easier time with the accent. 0:11:51.800 --> 0:11:54.719 Yes, because he's from Oklahoma. I think I wonder if 0:11:54.960 --> 0:11:56.720 one of the reasons he didn't do it is because 0:11:56.760 --> 0:11:59.960 he was just in seven a couple of years prime. 0:12:00.480 --> 0:12:06.319 And it also has very like doubly like sin vibes 0:12:06.720 --> 0:12:07.440 who knows. 0:12:07.800 --> 0:12:10.840 But yeah, vanity got to cut your own face off? 0:12:11.360 --> 0:12:13.440 Yes, my favorite sin. 0:12:14.679 --> 0:12:15.560 But yeah. 0:12:15.559 --> 0:12:18.240 So I didn't really know anything about this movie. And 0:12:18.240 --> 0:12:20.800 then I was like, oh, okay, the Devil's Advocate that 0:12:20.840 --> 0:12:24.800 really sounds like one of those stories where the writer 0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:28.920 came up with the title first and then reverse engineered 0:12:29.040 --> 0:12:30.280 a story around it. 0:12:30.760 --> 0:12:35.920 And then was incredibly literal. In fact, yes, I was 0:12:36.080 --> 0:12:39.640 shocked at how literal the title end being. I was like, Wow, 0:12:39.880 --> 0:12:44.000 this movie is engaging with its title in an unprecedented way. 0:12:44.760 --> 0:12:46.000 I feel like the only way it would have been 0:12:46.040 --> 0:12:49.640 more literal is if he was defending the devil himself, 0:12:49.760 --> 0:12:51.840 but in this case, he just works for the devil. 0:12:52.240 --> 0:12:55.160 Yeah, I don't know that's true. I mean, look, if 0:12:55.240 --> 0:13:03.160 you've already written the perfect novel, which is start phoning 0:13:03.200 --> 0:13:06.080 it in, why not. I'm not mad about it. You know. 0:13:06.679 --> 0:13:09.719 This movie also feels very similar in tone to the 0:13:09.920 --> 0:13:14.640 Rosemary's Baby sequel Son of Rosemary, which I encourage everyone 0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:17.760 to read, which just kind of like this starts off 0:13:17.840 --> 0:13:20.440 like kind of a bad thriller that you know where 0:13:20.440 --> 0:13:23.000 it's going, and then at the end is like, I 0:13:23.000 --> 0:13:25.640 don't know, It's like mister Toad's Wild's Ride. You're like, oh, 0:13:25.640 --> 0:13:28.320 we're literally going to hell. That's like, I like it. 0:13:28.360 --> 0:13:29.480 I didn't expect it. 0:13:31.720 --> 0:13:35.200 This this movie. Look, I thought I knew what was 0:13:35.240 --> 0:13:39.239 going to happen, and I was only right sometimes. 0:13:39.840 --> 0:13:43.400 Well, tell us, Jamie, what is your relationship with this movie? 0:13:43.679 --> 0:13:45.480 I thought it was me Joe Black. I thought I 0:13:45.480 --> 0:13:48.880 had seen it, and then I start to moment one. 0:13:48.920 --> 0:13:50.240 Once I saw the poster, I was like, I have 0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:53.360 not seen it. It's not me Joe Black. Who I 0:13:53.400 --> 0:13:57.120 think that's it. That's Brad Pitt is Death, not the Devil. 0:13:57.480 --> 0:13:58.280 I've never seen it. 0:13:58.360 --> 0:14:00.400 Yeah, I mean I haven't seen it. It was on 0:14:00.480 --> 0:14:01.439 planes for a while. 0:14:02.280 --> 0:14:05.800 We I don't know why we like owned it. We 0:14:05.840 --> 0:14:09.720 owned it. I remember because it had two video cassettes 0:14:09.840 --> 0:14:14.640 and oh I had two Titanic vibes. Again, that Titanic, right, 0:14:15.000 --> 0:14:17.320 Although this movie could have had two cassettes because it 0:14:17.360 --> 0:14:20.840 is simply too too long. Oh my god, it is. 0:14:20.960 --> 0:14:22.120 It's unforgivably long. 0:14:22.200 --> 0:14:24.560 This movie is as long as Good Fellas, yeah, which 0:14:24.680 --> 0:14:27.640 takes place over like fifteen years. 0:14:27.480 --> 0:14:32.920 Good Fellas, which iconically does not feel long. But that said, 0:14:33.000 --> 0:14:36.120 so I did not have any experience with this movie, 0:14:36.480 --> 0:14:39.680 you know, in terms of what our show is, why 0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:42.280 we come to this place. It fairs very badly. 0:14:42.680 --> 0:14:43.760 Oh yes, But. 0:14:43.920 --> 0:14:48.680 Did I enjoy myself? I sure did. I want to say, though, 0:14:49.280 --> 0:14:52.760 this is like we need to like put a this 0:14:52.920 --> 0:14:57.400 is the third Jeffrey Jones jump scare of this fiscal 0:14:57.600 --> 0:15:00.080 quarter on the Bechdel Cast. He really he. 0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:02.640 Worked his way into the nap of the eighties and nineties. 0:15:02.720 --> 0:15:06.600 You know, it's really vile. I mean it's like satisfying 0:15:06.640 --> 0:15:10.040 to see him die a horrible death, yes, But outside 0:15:10.080 --> 0:15:13.000 of that, I was like three times unbelievable because we 0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:19.080 recently covered Amadis and Sleepy Hollow. Yeah huh. In any case, 0:15:19.520 --> 0:15:23.200 did I like this fuckast movie? I did? I did? 0:15:23.560 --> 0:15:29.000 I It is not pro women? What is it saying? 0:15:29.280 --> 0:15:32.280 Kind of not very much, but it's hard to know. 0:15:32.560 --> 0:15:35.200 It's saying, would you like to watch al Pacino do 0:15:35.240 --> 0:15:36.920 a monologue for twelve minutes? 0:15:37.000 --> 0:15:38.600 And it's the answer. 0:15:38.240 --> 0:15:40.560 And just sam it up the entire time. 0:15:41.000 --> 0:15:43.040 That was the wild thing too, where it's like, I 0:15:43.200 --> 0:15:47.800 do think that al Pacino is Like, it's so weird 0:15:47.800 --> 0:15:50.840 to say that a performance that is like al Pacino 0:15:50.920 --> 0:15:54.320 shouting mostly is like him phoning it in, But it is. 0:15:54.480 --> 0:15:56.720 And that's so funny that there is someone who when 0:15:56.720 --> 0:15:58.560 he phones it in, he's screaming the whole time. 0:15:58.680 --> 0:16:01.240 It also reminds me of like the famous story about 0:16:01.280 --> 0:16:05.000 doctor strange love that. Kubrick was like, okays, Scott, just 0:16:05.040 --> 0:16:07.560 do one take where you're really over the top, just 0:16:07.600 --> 0:16:09.520 to warm up. We won't even use it. And then 0:16:09.520 --> 0:16:11.880 he was like, Hey, we're gonna use it. 0:16:12.160 --> 0:16:12.480 Really. 0:16:12.760 --> 0:16:14.600 The nice thing about al Pacino is that he doesn't 0:16:14.600 --> 0:16:17.640 need to be tricked. Tells you that performance on purpose. 0:16:18.120 --> 0:16:20.800 Oh yeah, He's like, that's what I can't also that, 0:16:20.920 --> 0:16:22.760 I mean, I just all the behind the scenes with 0:16:22.800 --> 0:16:26.120 this movie are is very funny and bizarre, and just 0:16:26.720 --> 0:16:29.360 like we're just glad that Keanu found his way to 0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:34.240 the matrix. Indeed eventually, but the stories around this movie 0:16:34.240 --> 0:16:35.000 are very funny. 0:16:35.080 --> 0:16:37.320 He turned down Speed two to be in. 0:16:37.320 --> 0:16:41.359 This, to do this, He turned down eleven million dollars 0:16:42.480 --> 0:16:44.520 in Speed two to do this, and he took a 0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:46.600 pay cut so he could work with al Pacino. And 0:16:46.640 --> 0:16:50.280 then he did that accent and you're like, this is wild. Yeah, 0:16:50.360 --> 0:16:53.240 but I'm not this is not a Keanu slander podcast. 0:16:53.360 --> 0:16:56.920 But also critically, and then I'll stop, I think that 0:16:57.120 --> 0:17:00.160 this is also not a Keanu Reeves coddling podcast. That 0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:03.359 is a very I feel like we have over corrected. 0:17:03.840 --> 0:17:08.119 We have over corrected, all right, He's pretty good in 0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:11.159 this movie, he's pretty good. Well, it's okay to be 0:17:11.280 --> 0:17:15.679 pretty good at your job. I'm so sick of like 0:17:16.200 --> 0:17:21.560 adults infantilizing other wealthy adults. I'm like, what the fuck, Like, Okay, 0:17:22.240 --> 0:17:26.080 it's a fine performance. Charlie Starron is awesome. Her haircut 0:17:26.240 --> 0:17:33.040 is awful. I love that Keani's character, who is iconically 0:17:33.119 --> 0:17:37.879 named Kevin the Devil's Son, is named Kevin. That's a minion. 0:17:38.600 --> 0:17:40.760 That's not a guy, but but in the nineties, it's 0:17:40.800 --> 0:17:41.520 not an adult. 0:17:41.560 --> 0:17:43.280 It's a kid in a baseball cap who gets to 0:17:43.280 --> 0:17:47.600 adopted air but absolutely absolutely. 0:17:46.840 --> 0:17:50.560 But yeah, an adult Kevin who is just too much. 0:17:51.560 --> 0:17:55.320 But this feels ultimately like a like put together, Like 0:17:55.760 --> 0:17:58.879 I don't know. This movie is both completely off the 0:17:59.040 --> 0:18:02.880 rails and feels like very calibrated. I mean, that's why 0:18:02.880 --> 0:18:04.720 I'm excited to talk about like the context that this 0:18:04.800 --> 0:18:07.040 movie came out in with you, Sarah, because it feels 0:18:07.200 --> 0:18:11.600 very like pulling from multiple trends in nineties media, where 0:18:11.600 --> 0:18:14.960 it's like it's got the erotic thriller elements, it's got 0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:17.840 the legal thing, it's got the satanic panic thing. Like 0:18:18.080 --> 0:18:20.639 there's just a lot happening and they're like, what if 0:18:20.640 --> 0:18:21.879 we put it all in one movie. 0:18:22.160 --> 0:18:25.160 It's like the Trifle and Friends, where the recipe pige 0:18:25.200 --> 0:18:27.679 has got stuck together and you have like peas and 0:18:27.800 --> 0:18:31.600 jam and the same thing. And actually, I do want 0:18:31.600 --> 0:18:33.920 to tell you because after I watched this, I did 0:18:33.920 --> 0:18:36.920 what I frequently do, which is run to see what 0:18:37.040 --> 0:18:40.800 ROGERI Bert said about it. Okay, because he's my favorite killjoy. 0:18:41.280 --> 0:18:44.040 I just love him so much, And he said. 0:18:43.960 --> 0:18:45.480 I hope people say that about us too. 0:18:47.720 --> 0:18:52.560 He said the John Grisham stuff clashed with the Exorcist stuff. Still, 0:18:52.600 --> 0:18:57.480 I enjoyed Picturino, which is basically like I mean, yeah. 0:18:57.000 --> 0:18:59.800 Pretty pretty solid review. Overall, I enjoyed. 0:19:00.720 --> 0:19:05.840 Yeah, this movie made me want to rewatch Constantine, Oh, 0:19:05.840 --> 0:19:09.480 which is that Keanu Reeves movie where he I actually 0:19:09.520 --> 0:19:12.320 don't remember what it's about, but there's also something about 0:19:12.359 --> 0:19:14.920 It's like he's like a demon Holly or something. 0:19:15.359 --> 0:19:18.680 Yeah, he's got to kill It's one of those movies 0:19:18.720 --> 0:19:20.639 that if hear me a boy makes you watch in 0:19:20.680 --> 0:19:22.120 two thousand and seven. 0:19:22.480 --> 0:19:26.159 Yeah, yes or tn T this movie is I didn't 0:19:26.160 --> 0:19:29.760 think this until you said it, Sarah, but this movie 0:19:29.840 --> 0:19:32.400 is very t and T coded. Oh yeah, yeah. 0:19:32.800 --> 0:19:34.720 Well, and also because this was during the time when 0:19:34.760 --> 0:19:37.720 TNT was playing Law and Order for like four hours 0:19:37.760 --> 0:19:41.040 every afternoon, and I know because I was watching it 0:19:42.280 --> 0:19:44.400 whenever it was on, and so it was weird when 0:19:44.880 --> 0:19:47.440 they would be playing this because they're literally, I think, 0:19:47.480 --> 0:19:49.600 in one of the same courtrooms that Law an Order 0:19:49.760 --> 0:19:54.719 uses with the beautiful mural and then it's about the devil. 0:19:55.080 --> 0:19:57.800 And the nineties were like secu heyday for just like 0:19:58.920 --> 0:20:02.000 legal thrillers all have the same color palette, and they 0:20:02.040 --> 0:20:04.480 frequently did I mean, at least in like A Time 0:20:04.520 --> 0:20:08.080 to Kill, you have Charlie's there and being like, please 0:20:08.119 --> 0:20:14.000 don't defend the defendant in the wildly rigged racist case. Honey, 0:20:14.160 --> 0:20:17.840 we're getting snubbed at the country club or whatever, you know. 0:20:18.560 --> 0:20:21.000 And so I just like having this thing that felt 0:20:21.080 --> 0:20:23.560 like you kind of feel And that's kind of it's 0:20:23.600 --> 0:20:25.879 both what does and doesn't work about it for me 0:20:25.920 --> 0:20:27.640 that you kind of feel like you know where it's 0:20:27.680 --> 0:20:30.720 going and it does feel grishay and then it's. 0:20:30.800 --> 0:20:34.919 The devil, but then it's the devil, and yeah, Kevin 0:20:35.280 --> 0:20:42.880 is the Devil's sun and misses like my God does. 0:20:42.960 --> 0:20:45.439 Every character is just everyone's doing way too much, but 0:20:45.600 --> 0:20:50.240 I love it. I love it When Keanu I think 0:20:50.280 --> 0:20:53.439 that it's like either the line is misspoken, I miswatched it, 0:20:53.840 --> 0:20:56.080 or it was just a clunkily written line. Any of 0:20:56.119 --> 0:20:59.600 these things are possible. But when Charlie's Terarren's character gets 0:20:59.600 --> 0:21:04.119 the hair cut, she goes from curly like fun blonde 0:21:04.359 --> 0:21:07.240 like bouncy curls. She looks like Elizabeth Berkeley, and then 0:21:07.359 --> 0:21:12.760 yeah does and then al Pacino says, get a brown bob, 0:21:12.960 --> 0:21:15.560 Like You're like, what do you mean? Like I did 0:21:15.560 --> 0:21:17.720 not understand the motivation behind the brown boss. 0:21:17.480 --> 0:21:19.600 Like get your hair off your neck. The neck is 0:21:19.640 --> 0:21:24.040 the borderland and seduction, and it's like like stop and 0:21:24.080 --> 0:21:26.399 there's You're like, you know, whether he's the devil or 0:21:26.440 --> 0:21:28.639 a man who tells random women what to do with 0:21:28.720 --> 0:21:31.520 their hair at parties, he represents the same threat level. 0:21:31.760 --> 0:21:33.840 You know, yes, I will say he is great. I 0:21:33.880 --> 0:21:36.520 mean it's also whatever, al Pacino. There's plans to talk 0:21:36.520 --> 0:21:37.960 about with al Pacino too, but. 0:21:38.320 --> 0:21:41.440 So I might have been thinking of actually Jad but whatever. 0:21:42.040 --> 0:21:45.399 I think it stands. The point stands. The point stands. Yeah, 0:21:45.560 --> 0:21:48.600 But in any case, this line cracked me up because 0:21:49.119 --> 0:21:49.679 she's like, you. 0:21:49.680 --> 0:21:53.240 Don't like the haircut, Kevin, You don't like my haircut, Kevin, 0:21:53.520 --> 0:21:57.679 And then and then he goes, no, it's fine, and 0:21:57.720 --> 0:21:59.719 then the next line is it's traumatic. 0:22:00.080 --> 0:22:02.880 He's talking about something else, but it sounds like he's calling. 0:22:02.560 --> 0:22:04.119 Her haircut traumatic. 0:22:04.200 --> 0:22:07.239 Yes, I know, maybe laugh so much, but he is 0:22:07.320 --> 0:22:09.720 changing the subject, but the way Keanu is reading it 0:22:09.760 --> 0:22:12.720 makes it sound like he's still talking about the haircut. Yes, 0:22:13.160 --> 0:22:13.919 he cracked me up. 0:22:13.960 --> 0:22:17.879 Also, you feel like this was like the nineties were 0:22:18.119 --> 0:22:20.080 I feel like the nineties were so much worse in 0:22:20.160 --> 0:22:23.480 terms of an actor doing an accent for a role 0:22:24.359 --> 0:22:27.560 and then deciding scene by scene whether he was going 0:22:27.640 --> 0:22:30.360 to do it or possibly I don't know. I don't 0:22:30.359 --> 0:22:32.600 want to coddle Kanu too much, but you wonder if 0:22:32.640 --> 0:22:36.879 like the director is like, just just don't worry about 0:22:36.880 --> 0:22:39.119 it anymore, and then they edit it together so that 0:22:39.200 --> 0:22:40.520 it comes in and out like that. 0:22:40.680 --> 0:22:43.640 Right. Oh yes, Well when this is like not even 0:22:43.680 --> 0:22:47.840 the most famous example of Kano doing that, because wouldn't 0:22:47.840 --> 0:22:51.800 that be Dracula? Yes, yeah, like that's I think his 0:22:51.960 --> 0:22:55.000 most iconically like not so great well was I mean, 0:22:55.040 --> 0:22:57.160 I don't know if you've ever like acted in something, 0:22:57.200 --> 0:23:01.080 particularly like a film project, where you're like, you know not, 0:23:02.000 --> 0:23:05.160 you know whatever. It's kind of on you to keep 0:23:05.160 --> 0:23:08.240 the accent consistent. It's not an easy thing to do, 0:23:09.280 --> 0:23:12.199 but also you should do it. 0:23:14.160 --> 0:23:17.080 Yes, And on that note, let's take a quick break 0:23:17.119 --> 0:23:30.400 and then come back for the recap. Okay, we're back, 0:23:30.960 --> 0:23:36.200 and we will place a trigger warning here for many 0:23:36.320 --> 0:23:43.320 things kind of what, yes, you name it, child sexual abuse, rape, incest, suicide. 0:23:43.720 --> 0:23:45.879 This movie kind of runs the whole gambit. 0:23:45.680 --> 0:23:47.960 Of animal sacrifice. 0:23:47.680 --> 0:23:52.119 Yes, lots of violence and upsetting things. 0:23:52.560 --> 0:23:55.600 Kevinnvin. 0:23:56.320 --> 0:24:01.360 We open in a courtroom in Gainesville, Florida, where defense 0:24:01.480 --> 0:24:07.520 attorney Kevin Lomax not to be confused with Kevin le Mignon, 0:24:07.600 --> 0:24:11.080 thank you for saying that, Yes, played by Keanu Reeves, 0:24:11.600 --> 0:24:15.640 is defending a teacher who is on trial for sexually 0:24:15.680 --> 0:24:17.560 abusing his students. 0:24:18.080 --> 0:24:21.080 Heather Modarazzo too, Yes, and. 0:24:21.080 --> 0:24:25.760 This teacher seems very guilty, but Kevin, despite having some 0:24:26.080 --> 0:24:30.840 misgivings about his client, manages to turn things around and 0:24:30.920 --> 0:24:35.600 tries to expose the student who is testifying as a 0:24:35.680 --> 0:24:39.760 liar who made up this story about her teacher. And 0:24:39.800 --> 0:24:41.800 it seems like it's going to work and that he 0:24:41.960 --> 0:24:45.480 has won the case, and so he goes out to 0:24:45.560 --> 0:24:48.280 celebrate with his wife. 0:24:48.359 --> 0:24:51.240 Mary Anne, his fun, curly wife who does shots. 0:24:51.960 --> 0:24:55.440 Yes, she's still got curly hair. But the devil makes 0:24:55.440 --> 0:24:56.119 you get a bob. 0:24:59.320 --> 0:25:03.480 This is Charlie Sterren's character, of course. And while they're 0:25:03.480 --> 0:25:07.640 at the bar, Kevin is approached by an attorney from 0:25:08.040 --> 0:25:11.440 a law firm in New York City. Ever heard of it? 0:25:11.800 --> 0:25:18.720 That's Babylon, that's the Devil's playground, city of sin. And 0:25:19.200 --> 0:25:22.520 this firm is impressed with Kevin because he's never lost 0:25:22.560 --> 0:25:28.120 a case and they want his help with a jury selection. Now, 0:25:28.240 --> 0:25:32.640 Kevin's mother, Alice, doesn't think this is a good idea. 0:25:33.040 --> 0:25:36.800 She's super religious and she thinks that New York is 0:25:36.840 --> 0:25:41.680 full of godless heathens. But Kevin and his wife Mary 0:25:41.680 --> 0:25:44.720 Anne go to New York anyway, and he does a 0:25:44.760 --> 0:25:50.360 good job with the jury selection. So John Milton, Okay, 0:25:50.520 --> 0:25:57.240 Paradise Lost mud very subtle played by al Pacino. 0:25:57.520 --> 0:26:01.119 Can I be vulnerable and say I've never read Paradise Lost? 0:26:01.320 --> 0:26:04.439 Oh no, oh god, how many people have? You know? 0:26:05.359 --> 0:26:07.400 I'm very proud of anyone who's managed it. 0:26:07.480 --> 0:26:11.560 But okay, yeah, no, I've never read that. I have 0:26:11.920 --> 0:26:14.560 never read Dante's Inferno. 0:26:15.359 --> 0:26:20.159 Everything I know about Dante's Inferno is from Lemony Snicket books. 0:26:20.760 --> 0:26:22.679 That's pretty good, you know what you want to know? 0:26:22.680 --> 0:26:26.119 What I just learned is that Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, his 0:26:26.880 --> 0:26:31.920 wife died when her dress caught fire and she burned 0:26:31.920 --> 0:26:34.200 to a crisp, which happened to a lot of women 0:26:34.200 --> 0:26:37.320 in the mid nineteenth century because the fashion was for 0:26:37.400 --> 0:26:41.760 women to wear very very flammable clothing, and so they 0:26:41.800 --> 0:26:45.040 did because you know, it feels like a trick. That 0:26:45.240 --> 0:26:48.560 feels like a trick, like no, no, just wear layer 0:26:48.640 --> 0:26:51.440 is a very very flammable cotton in the air, it'll 0:26:51.440 --> 0:26:55.359 be great. And so after that he didn't really write 0:26:55.840 --> 0:26:59.320 much or any new poetry, and he devoted much of 0:26:59.359 --> 0:27:02.680 the rest of his life life to translating the Divine Comedy, 0:27:02.920 --> 0:27:05.800 which I just think is like, ohh such a relatable 0:27:05.880 --> 0:27:08.560 grief thing to do. You're like, nobody talk to me. 0:27:08.640 --> 0:27:11.639 I'm translating the Divine Comedy from Italian. It's going to 0:27:11.720 --> 0:27:14.040 take a while. I'm fine, everything's fine in here. 0:27:14.440 --> 0:27:17.119 I kind of like, yeah, that's both obviously, like that 0:27:17.280 --> 0:27:21.800 is such a traumatic thing. And also it's kind of 0:27:21.880 --> 0:27:25.920 dramatic of him to be like, oh, no, leave me alone. 0:27:26.400 --> 0:27:29.080 You know I love it. Yeah, we should. We should 0:27:29.160 --> 0:27:33.320 really bring back more dramatic grieving of that nature. 0:27:33.840 --> 0:27:37.280 We should have PSAs about how increasingly young men are 0:27:37.320 --> 0:27:40.960 translating epic Italian poems to deal with their emotions, and 0:27:41.000 --> 0:27:44.120 that's why we need to increase mental health access. 0:27:44.280 --> 0:27:48.280 It's the male it's the male translation epidemic. Everyone's talking 0:27:48.359 --> 0:27:50.160 about it. It's really bad. 0:27:50.800 --> 0:27:52.600 If they think everyone else is doing it, they're going 0:27:52.680 --> 0:27:55.800 to start translating poems. I swear to God it's true. 0:27:55.840 --> 0:27:58.119 This is how this is. This is our attempt to 0:27:58.200 --> 0:28:02.520 reverse the narrative. Yeah, they don't want you to translate 0:28:02.600 --> 0:28:06.400 classic Italian poems. Boys, It's the last thing they want 0:28:06.440 --> 0:28:08.959 you to do. The final rebellion. 0:28:11.280 --> 0:28:11.920 In any case. 0:28:12.000 --> 0:28:17.840 Anyway, John Milton played by al Pacino, is one of 0:28:17.880 --> 0:28:21.720 the senior partners at this law firm and definitely not. 0:28:21.800 --> 0:28:25.960 Like John Milton or Tanio. 0:28:27.480 --> 0:28:30.879 And he hires Kevin to work at the firm. 0:28:31.400 --> 0:28:33.920 Okay, this does actually now that we're talking about Kevin 0:28:33.920 --> 0:28:37.960 the Minion, this does follow Minion logic because Kevin does 0:28:38.280 --> 0:28:42.320 Minion rules. Minion serves the most evil master. What is 0:28:42.400 --> 0:28:45.320 Kevin doing? Wow, this is kind of like a Kevin thing. 0:28:45.720 --> 0:28:50.240 It is a minions. He is a minion and that's 0:28:50.240 --> 0:28:53.560 why his accent is so inconsistent. Yeah. 0:28:53.760 --> 0:28:56.080 Yeah, his first language is minionise. 0:28:56.120 --> 0:29:01.600 That which means he's he can speak just as many 0:29:01.720 --> 0:29:09.040 languages as the devil Well and Christabella Andreoli iconic Connie 0:29:09.120 --> 0:29:13.280 Nielsen character. Christabella Andreoli, do you like it on top? 0:29:13.440 --> 0:29:16.880 You're like, shut up everyone. Every time someone speaks in 0:29:16.920 --> 0:29:22.200 this movie, my reaction is shut up anyways. 0:29:22.720 --> 0:29:27.200 Uh So, John Milton gives Kevin a job as well 0:29:27.320 --> 0:29:33.760 as this like huge beautiful apartment in Manhattan. Then Kevin 0:29:34.000 --> 0:29:38.560 meets his colleagues, including this guy named Eddie Barzoon This 0:29:38.760 --> 0:29:44.840 is the Jeffrey Jones character. And Christabella Andreoli that's the 0:29:44.880 --> 0:29:46.600 Connie Nielsen character. 0:29:46.760 --> 0:29:52.080 Perfect and like many women professional women characters of the 0:29:52.240 --> 0:29:55.240 late twentieth century, we know she's really good at her job, 0:29:55.280 --> 0:29:57.640 but don't expect to see her doing it and not 0:29:57.720 --> 0:30:02.840 expected to become plot relevant. She's there to be naked eventually. 0:30:02.840 --> 0:30:05.880 Yes, because every time Kevin looks at her, he goes 0:30:06.360 --> 0:30:08.480 hubba hubba a wooga. 0:30:09.240 --> 0:30:12.360 It's true it's true, and then his heart bursts out 0:30:12.360 --> 0:30:13.200 of his chest. 0:30:13.640 --> 0:30:18.920 And yeah, he goes full wolf es. God, we're gonna 0:30:19.160 --> 0:30:21.080 when we get to the scene where she do you 0:30:21.200 --> 0:30:24.240 like it? On top of your profession? I mean you're like, 0:30:24.480 --> 0:30:31.240 oh oh oh lord, Yeah, Tony Gilroy, how are you doing, sir? 0:30:32.280 --> 0:30:38.040 Okay. So, Kevin's first assignment is the Moyes case, where 0:30:38.080 --> 0:30:41.720 this guy named Philippe Moyez played by Delroy Lindo. 0:30:41.760 --> 0:30:44.240 Yes, one of my favorite Chrea directors ever. 0:30:44.640 --> 0:30:48.760 Indeed, he is arrested for killing a goat in his 0:30:48.880 --> 0:30:51.520 basement and it seems like there's no way to win 0:30:51.640 --> 0:30:56.320 this case, but Kevin manages to win by saying that 0:30:56.520 --> 0:31:00.080 Moyees killed a goat as a religious practice, which he 0:31:00.120 --> 0:31:02.480 has the constitutional right to observe. 0:31:02.960 --> 0:31:05.920 Okay, here's my question with the whole Delroy Lindo thing, 0:31:05.920 --> 0:31:09.520 because this movie does extremely poorly on race, as we'll 0:31:09.560 --> 0:31:13.440 talk about. Yes, but I was like, genuinely, I was like, okay, So, 0:31:13.560 --> 0:31:16.480 once you find out al Pacino's the devil, are we 0:31:16.600 --> 0:31:19.440 to believe that Keanu Reeves should not have fought that 0:31:19.560 --> 0:31:24.280 religious freedom case? I was very confused. 0:31:24.960 --> 0:31:27.880 Let's talk about it later because I like I want 0:31:27.880 --> 0:31:31.160 to get into it with that plotline that could have 0:31:31.200 --> 0:31:34.280 been absolutely cut from the movie, and perhaps should have been, 0:31:34.400 --> 0:31:38.920 because it was cut like twenty minutes out of the runtime, 0:31:38.960 --> 0:31:40.880 which is desperately needed for this movie. 0:31:41.040 --> 0:31:45.240 Yes, ultimately it's like I'm always happy to see Delroy Lindo. 0:31:45.360 --> 0:31:49.240 But that was one of the many baffling moments in 0:31:49.280 --> 0:31:50.960 the truly yeah. 0:31:51.000 --> 0:31:54.360 But the point is that Kevin wins this unwinnable case, 0:31:54.480 --> 0:31:58.640 and so John Milton is like, Wow, Kevin, good job, 0:31:58.800 --> 0:32:05.200 you rock and you now. Meanwhile, at home, Marianne has 0:32:05.240 --> 0:32:09.840 been hanging out with her neighbor Jackie, played by Tamara Tooney, 0:32:10.400 --> 0:32:12.960 who's also married to one of the lawyers at the firm. 0:32:13.000 --> 0:32:14.160 I think that guy's name is Lehman. 0:32:14.880 --> 0:32:18.479 It is played by Reuben Santiago Hudson, who is an 0:32:18.560 --> 0:32:21.800 actor and a writer. He wrote the adaptation of ma 0:32:21.960 --> 0:32:25.280 Rainie's Black Bottom. Oh not kidding. Wow, he's just a 0:32:25.360 --> 0:32:29.480 very yeah, he's a very versatile guy anyways, which I 0:32:29.520 --> 0:32:32.960 think my friend Patrick was in as an extra really yeah, 0:32:32.960 --> 0:32:36.920 as a racist Irish man in Oh Pittsburgh. Mary got 0:32:36.960 --> 0:32:39.800 that track, Uh, well, shot up Patrick. 0:32:41.240 --> 0:32:44.720 But so Marianne is hanging out with Jackie, who is 0:32:44.760 --> 0:32:50.400 helping marian decorate her new apartment because women be doing 0:32:50.640 --> 0:32:55.920 woman things like decorating. And then Kevin and Marianne go 0:32:56.000 --> 0:32:59.160 to this big party in the building and this is 0:32:59.160 --> 0:33:03.960 where Marianne meets John Milton and he's like, Wow, you're beautiful, 0:33:04.160 --> 0:33:07.000 but your hair, well it looks like shit and you 0:33:07.040 --> 0:33:08.320 should change everything about it. 0:33:08.440 --> 0:33:11.120 Yeah, the whole the whole neck thing. 0:33:11.560 --> 0:33:17.840 Right exactly. Meanwhile, Kevin is flirting with Christabella. 0:33:18.040 --> 0:33:23.160 And she's flirting right back. Bouschemy tests this you can't 0:33:23.360 --> 0:33:26.840 you care? Oh my god? Do you like it on top? Kevin? 0:33:27.400 --> 0:33:29.480 Like, and then he's like, excuse me? 0:33:29.760 --> 0:33:32.680 Is your wife a Jedi's woman? Kevin? I better get 0:33:32.680 --> 0:33:36.640 out of here. You're like just the most written by 0:33:36.720 --> 0:33:40.560 man woman ever. Yeah, but it felt like it for me, 0:33:41.440 --> 0:33:44.920 it transcended and became camp. Do you like it on top? Kevin? 0:33:45.320 --> 0:33:49.080 This is an extremely campy movie. It's taking itself very seriously. 0:33:49.240 --> 0:33:53.840 But the camp is that I'm qualifiers true. 0:33:53.960 --> 0:33:56.160 I mean that's the thing about The Devil, right, is that, like, 0:33:56.240 --> 0:33:59.440 you can't really be dead serious about Devil stuff. 0:34:00.480 --> 0:34:01.720 The Devil is camp. 0:34:02.000 --> 0:34:03.360 Yeah, it is a campy, little guy. 0:34:03.720 --> 0:34:07.480 I'm just look at that outfit for a start, what 0:34:07.600 --> 0:34:10.200 is that pitchwork for. It's for poking people in the butt. 0:34:11.160 --> 0:34:15.879 It's true, he's a kinky little guy. This movie made 0:34:15.880 --> 0:34:18.600 me think of Angel Heart, which is, like, I don't know, 0:34:18.680 --> 0:34:21.880 to me, a similarly campy devil movie where it's like 0:34:22.120 --> 0:34:24.200 supposed to be a twist that it's the devil, but 0:34:24.239 --> 0:34:27.520 you're like, this has clearly been the devil the entire time, 0:34:27.840 --> 0:34:31.000 and like, you know, with like great style. Is directed 0:34:31.000 --> 0:34:34.120 by Ellen Parker, but where like if you had to 0:34:34.160 --> 0:34:35.640 come up with the point of it, you would have 0:34:35.680 --> 0:34:38.319 no idea what to say. Yeah, And they both have 0:34:38.440 --> 0:34:41.600 like over the top dramatic endings at opposite ends of 0:34:41.640 --> 0:34:44.360 the twelve year old boy spectrum, which I'm excited to 0:34:44.360 --> 0:34:45.399 talk about when we get there. 0:34:45.520 --> 0:34:49.080 Oh okay, yeah, because ultimately the I mean as close 0:34:49.800 --> 0:34:52.160 it's trying to say something about free will, but I 0:34:52.160 --> 0:34:55.239 think it is making a very simple and should be 0:34:55.680 --> 0:34:59.920 you know, followed moral, which is do not legally defend 0:35:00.000 --> 0:35:04.840 and a super criminals, yeah, like a child's sex abuser. 0:35:04.960 --> 0:35:07.160 And you're like, well, all right, got it. 0:35:08.680 --> 0:35:11.719 I agree, And you know, for most people who don't 0:35:11.760 --> 0:35:14.040 have that job in the audience. You're like, already not 0:35:14.200 --> 0:35:14.759 doing that. 0:35:14.960 --> 0:35:17.839 I love it. Yeah, that's true. You're like, I did it. 0:35:18.120 --> 0:35:21.000 And then if that is your job, I have to 0:35:21.120 --> 0:35:24.239 get out a postcard and write to whatever studio made this. 0:35:24.560 --> 0:35:28.840 It's true. Okay. So they're at this party and then 0:35:28.920 --> 0:35:32.680 eventually Milton summons Kevin and then a couple of the 0:35:32.719 --> 0:35:36.160 other attorneys to his penthouse apartment, which is just this 0:35:36.280 --> 0:35:40.200 like big room. There's no bedroom, there's no bed, there's 0:35:40.239 --> 0:35:40.800 a kitchen. 0:35:41.000 --> 0:35:44.719 He's an anti Samantha Jones. She's all bedroom, he's no bedroom. 0:35:46.880 --> 0:35:48.840 I think this is a later scene in the same space, 0:35:48.880 --> 0:35:51.919 but that whole like where does he sleep? We don't 0:35:51.920 --> 0:35:54.600 know where does he fuck everywhere? 0:35:54.960 --> 0:35:56.640 You're like, no, that is the scene. 0:35:56.840 --> 0:36:01.160 Oh it is okay, that is Yeah, it's awesome. 0:36:01.360 --> 0:36:05.240 Also Edward Collen coated except Edward Collin fucts nowhere famously. 0:36:05.600 --> 0:36:10.120 The thing is, I want that same line read from 0:36:10.480 --> 0:36:16.040 Robert Patt's no way. 0:36:16.200 --> 0:36:19.040 Oh that's kind of the accent he's doing in Mickey seventeen. 0:36:19.200 --> 0:36:20.520 So I feel like he could pull it out. 0:36:20.520 --> 0:36:22.000 It is, Yeah, he can do it. 0:36:22.200 --> 0:36:22.359 Yeah. 0:36:22.400 --> 0:36:23.960 Yeah. 0:36:24.040 --> 0:36:28.279 In any case, Milton gives Kevin a new case to 0:36:28.320 --> 0:36:36.240 work on this big time real estate developer named Alexander Cullen. Okay, Collin, speak. 0:36:36.000 --> 0:36:40.880 Of the devil, Alexander Cullen. Unfortunately, the Alexander Collin penthouse 0:36:41.120 --> 0:36:43.480 is Donald Trump's penthouse in New York. 0:36:43.640 --> 0:36:47.680 Really is, Yeah, except it's like what if Donald Trump 0:36:47.760 --> 0:36:49.960 was the dad from Poultergeist? And you're like, at this point, 0:36:50.000 --> 0:36:50.520 I'll take it. 0:36:51.080 --> 0:36:51.400 Yeah. 0:36:51.640 --> 0:36:54.480 Also, Donald Trump's name is invoked in this movie at 0:36:54.480 --> 0:36:56.560 some point where they're at a party and someone says 0:36:56.600 --> 0:36:58.560 Donald Trump was supposed to be here, but he had 0:36:58.600 --> 0:37:01.080 a business emergency, and you're like, oh. 0:37:00.960 --> 0:37:03.680 My god, I mean I'm sure that that was like 0:37:03.840 --> 0:37:07.120 the condition for using the apartment or something like you 0:37:07.160 --> 0:37:09.480 need to bring me up in a way that makes 0:37:09.560 --> 0:37:10.720 just any. 0:37:10.640 --> 0:37:14.440 Reply that I have business emergencies and not going to 0:37:14.560 --> 0:37:16.200 sex offender Island emergencies. 0:37:16.520 --> 0:37:20.120 Yes, somehow, our fascist president does weasele his way into 0:37:20.200 --> 0:37:22.440 this movie that at least has the decency to be 0:37:22.480 --> 0:37:23.240 about the devil. 0:37:23.600 --> 0:37:26.080 Yeah, I mean, not take up ahead of ourselves, but 0:37:26.160 --> 0:37:29.880 this this movie does imply something about the craigten Nelson 0:37:30.000 --> 0:37:31.960 character that you kind of feel like people in the 0:37:32.000 --> 0:37:36.200 know probably knew about Trump in the nineties too interesting. 0:37:36.480 --> 0:37:39.960 Perhaps, yeah, I believe it. We'll clarify that shortly. But 0:37:40.400 --> 0:37:43.839 what we know about Alexander Cullen now is that he 0:37:44.200 --> 0:37:48.800 has been charged with murdering three people, including his wife, 0:37:49.880 --> 0:37:53.280 and it's going to be this big, very public case. 0:37:53.520 --> 0:37:55.960 But Kevin is up to the challenge. 0:37:56.680 --> 0:38:02.880 Go Kevin, lead counsel. Kevin, I feel fine, just honestly, 0:38:03.280 --> 0:38:05.520 you need to change your name like I am. You 0:38:05.560 --> 0:38:08.319 could be the best layer in the world. I'm not 0:38:08.440 --> 0:38:11.640 working with Kevin. Come on, not for a murder trial, 0:38:12.840 --> 0:38:15.319 right My life is on the line. Leave Kevin out 0:38:15.320 --> 0:38:15.520 of it. 0:38:16.520 --> 0:38:21.560 So then Kevin meets with this Alexander Cullen played by 0:38:21.719 --> 0:38:24.520 Craig t Nelson, And what's his thing again? I know 0:38:24.560 --> 0:38:27.279 that he has like horrible politics. I know that he's 0:38:27.280 --> 0:38:30.279 like not a good person. I like it's hard to 0:38:30.360 --> 0:38:35.080 keep tracked t Nelson. I know very little about me too. 0:38:35.160 --> 0:38:36.080 I miss Craig tel. 0:38:37.120 --> 0:38:38.520 I think we might have brought him up on the 0:38:38.520 --> 0:38:40.640 podcast before. I don't remember it, but any I think 0:38:40.680 --> 0:38:43.680 he's he's not a great guy anyway. He's not thrilled 0:38:43.680 --> 0:38:46.040 with Kevin taking the case, but he doesn't have much 0:38:46.040 --> 0:38:50.880 of a choice. Meanwhile, mary Anne, who now has a 0:38:51.040 --> 0:38:56.960 completely different haircut and hair color, goes shopping with her 0:38:56.960 --> 0:39:01.200 friend Jackie, and then this weird thing happens where Jackie's like, 0:39:01.560 --> 0:39:04.360 look at my titties. Are they fake? Are they real? 0:39:05.360 --> 0:39:10.280 Touch them, feel them? And then Marianne sees Jackie's face 0:39:10.360 --> 0:39:15.960 and body briefly transform into something that looks demonic. 0:39:15.840 --> 0:39:17.239 Looks like bad cgi. 0:39:17.600 --> 0:39:22.400 There's nothing more satanic than girls touching each other's boobs famously. 0:39:22.840 --> 0:39:26.680 Like right away, you're like, got it, got I see 0:39:26.960 --> 0:39:27.319 the go. 0:39:27.239 --> 0:39:28.799 Ask Alice school of Satanism. 0:39:29.360 --> 0:39:32.040 Chraigtie Nelson, from what I can tell, is your sort 0:39:32.040 --> 0:39:37.440 of garden variety, like right leaning libertarian, dork ass loser, 0:39:37.880 --> 0:39:41.120 but I do this. His Wikipedia page is fascinating because 0:39:41.120 --> 0:39:43.360 I've noticed this as like an editorial thing. I'm like, 0:39:43.360 --> 0:39:45.840 I'm sure it's like his reps doing it or something. 0:39:46.400 --> 0:39:49.920 But in the personal life section, whenever someone is truly 0:39:50.040 --> 0:39:52.920 like a piece of shit, people will edit it to 0:39:53.080 --> 0:39:55.960 end it on something innocuous in the hopes that you're scanning. 0:39:56.239 --> 0:39:59.000 Because it's like he endorsed John McCain, He was a 0:39:59.080 --> 0:40:01.440 regular guest on and Beck and then it ends on 0:40:02.520 --> 0:40:05.920 Nelson is also a lifelong Green Bay Packers fan, and 0:40:06.040 --> 0:40:10.000 you're like, you can't fool me. Yeah, I saw Glenn 0:40:10.040 --> 0:40:11.640 Beck like whatever, But. 0:40:11.560 --> 0:40:13.600 You're supposed to go about your day and the rest 0:40:13.640 --> 0:40:16.719 of your life thinking Craig T. Nelson, go pack go 0:40:17.320 --> 0:40:18.200 Yeah exactly. 0:40:18.320 --> 0:40:24.360 Yeah, Okay. So then after mary Anne witnesses this really 0:40:24.360 --> 0:40:28.319 bizarre thing with her friend Jackie, she keeping is stressfulling 0:40:28.360 --> 0:40:33.920 and yes, I also turned into a demon when I shop. Yeah, 0:40:33.960 --> 0:40:37.200 if a three way mirror is present, absolutely indeed. 0:40:37.360 --> 0:40:39.239 And my hot friends are undressing in front of me, 0:40:39.280 --> 0:40:42.719 and I'm feeling insecure about my bob. Come on. 0:40:44.600 --> 0:40:49.240 So she freaks out and she tells Kevin that things 0:40:49.360 --> 0:40:53.000 are weird and that actually she hates this apartment and 0:40:53.040 --> 0:40:55.480 she doesn't like that he's never home anymore because he's 0:40:55.520 --> 0:40:59.200 so busy working all the time. And Kevin does not 0:40:59.800 --> 0:41:04.680 take this well. He's furious. He's screaming at her, but 0:41:04.719 --> 0:41:08.799 then she starts crying, so he consoles her and it 0:41:08.840 --> 0:41:15.640 gets horny. Let's yeah, the line read there is hilarious. 0:41:17.120 --> 0:41:21.320 They start fucking on the floor, but as they're having sex, 0:41:21.520 --> 0:41:26.560 he keeps seeing Christabella instead of mary Anne, and Marianne 0:41:26.560 --> 0:41:29.520 can tell something is wrong and that he's not fully present. 0:41:30.520 --> 0:41:35.440 Then we cut away. Kevin's mother, Alice comes into town 0:41:35.560 --> 0:41:39.520 for a visit and they run into Milton in the elevator, 0:41:40.160 --> 0:41:43.480 and she seems very uncomfortable around Milton. Is it because 0:41:43.480 --> 0:41:45.239 he's the devil? I don't know, or is it. 0:41:45.160 --> 0:41:47.680 Because they had a thing back in the day. 0:41:48.600 --> 0:41:52.959 We'll find out. But another weird thing happens on the 0:41:53.120 --> 0:41:59.319 subway where Milton and Kevin are riding the subway for 0:41:59.360 --> 0:42:01.160 some reason. I don't no, they have so much money, 0:42:01.160 --> 0:42:03.240 why aren't they taking like private cars? 0:42:03.640 --> 0:42:06.720 Because he's the devil and he likes to be underground. 0:42:07.800 --> 0:42:11.480 Yes, well that is I read in the there was 0:42:11.560 --> 0:42:14.280 a Joel Schumacher version of this movie which was supposed 0:42:14.280 --> 0:42:17.600 to happen, which actually, my god, I can't believe it didn't. Right, 0:42:17.840 --> 0:42:20.239 there's already a lot of nipples in this movie. But 0:42:20.280 --> 0:42:22.200 here's the thing. There could have been more. There could 0:42:22.239 --> 0:42:26.279 have been more, but in the Joel Schumacher version, I 0:42:26.320 --> 0:42:29.840 think that that's probably left over. Because the Joel Schumacher 0:42:29.960 --> 0:42:33.040 version is it's like Dante's six Circles of Hell are 0:42:33.080 --> 0:42:36.080 going deeper and deeper into the subway system, which is 0:42:36.120 --> 0:42:39.160 so cute, which is a cool like visual idea, but 0:42:39.239 --> 0:42:41.600 I think that like what happened that didn't happen. And 0:42:41.640 --> 0:42:43.920 then there's just a random scene where these like wealthy 0:42:44.000 --> 0:42:46.640 characters who are classist are on the subway. 0:42:46.680 --> 0:42:49.919 For some reason, I wonder how much of Joel Schumacher's 0:42:49.960 --> 0:42:54.040 The Devil's Advocate ended up in Batman and Robin oh 0:42:54.239 --> 0:42:54.920 Never now. 0:42:54.880 --> 0:42:58.520 Makes you think rp to the Weirdest Man effort. 0:43:00.480 --> 0:43:04.080 But anyway, this strange thing happens on the subway where 0:43:04.960 --> 0:43:10.960 Milton tells this man that his girlfriend is currently cheating 0:43:11.000 --> 0:43:13.440 on him, and he seems to know a bunch of details, 0:43:13.520 --> 0:43:18.400 almost as if Milton is omniscient, almost like he's the devil. 0:43:19.120 --> 0:43:22.520 That's why America's Southern lawyer should learn Spanish. Gave him 0:43:22.880 --> 0:43:23.719 time on this one. 0:43:24.440 --> 0:43:28.640 Yes, also okay, and I can't claim to be an 0:43:28.719 --> 0:43:31.439 expert or even proficient in Spanish, but I know enough 0:43:31.440 --> 0:43:35.439 to know that al Pacino was not doing a very 0:43:35.520 --> 0:43:39.400 good job and he's it seems like he's speaking Spanish 0:43:39.440 --> 0:43:42.359 with an Italian accent, because I think al Pacino does 0:43:42.480 --> 0:43:43.920 know Italian. 0:43:44.440 --> 0:43:47.239 Yeah, yeah, the degree to which he is phoning it 0:43:47.280 --> 0:43:51.080 in at volume one thousand. Is that's interesting because I 0:43:51.160 --> 0:43:52.560 was I was going to ask you. I was like, 0:43:53.040 --> 0:43:54.680 is it even close? 0:43:55.400 --> 0:43:58.360 It's it's pretty rough and it's clear because it keeps 0:43:58.440 --> 0:44:01.359 cutting away from him so you're not actually see him. 0:44:02.480 --> 0:44:03.560 So I think it's a lot of it is a 0:44:03.719 --> 0:44:06.320 dr and I think lines were probably like said to 0:44:06.400 --> 0:44:09.279 him one sentence at a time, and he's still blowing it. 0:44:09.719 --> 0:44:11.600 But there's a lot of there's a lot of ADR 0:44:11.640 --> 0:44:17.120 in this movie. My favorite ADR comes from it's misogynous ADR. 0:44:18.200 --> 0:44:21.279 It's when they move into the three bedroom apartment and 0:44:21.320 --> 0:44:25.120 they add the line three bedrooms. You know what that 0:44:25.200 --> 0:44:26.239 means a. 0:44:26.280 --> 0:44:30.480 Baby, Like you don't see her, you don't see her 0:44:30.560 --> 0:44:32.799 mug move that whole time. I was like, they absolutely 0:44:33.120 --> 0:44:36.600 added that, Like they're like, oh no, we never established 0:44:36.640 --> 0:44:39.880 that this character's only goal in life is to have 0:44:39.960 --> 0:44:42.319 Kyanta Reeve's baby, no matter how much he hates her. 0:44:44.440 --> 0:44:45.560 You know what that means? 0:44:45.640 --> 0:44:53.479 A baby seamless, no perfect, And then more weird things 0:44:53.520 --> 0:44:55.800 continue to happen at home. 0:44:56.120 --> 0:44:59.640 Marianne sees and speaking of babies, she sees a random 0:44:59.680 --> 0:45:01.960 baby in the apartment. 0:45:01.520 --> 0:45:04.440 And takes it in stride, takes it really in stride. 0:45:04.480 --> 0:45:07.040 She says, Hi, baby, the. 0:45:08.040 --> 0:45:10.839 Baby, where's your mummy. You're like, oh, she is cool 0:45:10.880 --> 0:45:13.279 as a cucumber about it until she sees what the 0:45:13.280 --> 0:45:17.200 baby is playing with, which are entrails, and then she's like, 0:45:17.360 --> 0:45:19.840 oh no, And then it seems like maybe Marianne is 0:45:19.880 --> 0:45:22.960 having a miscarriage. We don't know if it was a 0:45:23.080 --> 0:45:26.520 dream or if it was real. Marianne feels like she's 0:45:26.560 --> 0:45:29.680 losing her grip on reality. And again, Kevin is not 0:45:29.800 --> 0:45:32.719 handling this well. He's not listening to her. He is 0:45:32.800 --> 0:45:35.120 dismissing her, He's constantly gaslighting her. 0:45:35.239 --> 0:45:39.280 He's doing about as well as any husband named Kevin anyway. 0:45:40.040 --> 0:45:43.800 And it's a weird Keano performance. So the in my opinion, 0:45:43.880 --> 0:45:48.239 the like the reactions feel weird and outsized even for 0:45:48.320 --> 0:45:51.160 what he's doing, where it's like you're like, too loud, 0:45:51.480 --> 0:45:53.680 too loud, what's going on? 0:45:54.000 --> 0:45:55.200 Yes, I love this, boovie. 0:45:55.600 --> 0:45:56.120 It sucks. 0:45:56.719 --> 0:45:59.239 I keep imagining him saying to Charlie Is at some 0:45:59.360 --> 0:46:03.600 point like, honey, let's let's go to Los Angeles and 0:46:03.640 --> 0:46:06.040 I can infiltrate surf crime communities. 0:46:08.160 --> 0:46:08.680 Yeah was it? 0:46:08.760 --> 0:46:11.000 I guess this was this was after point break, right. 0:46:11.160 --> 0:46:14.000 Yeah, but you know it's all a big soup in 0:46:14.040 --> 0:46:14.439 my head. 0:46:14.680 --> 0:46:14.960 Sure. 0:46:15.160 --> 0:46:19.759 Yeah, like his like post Speed but pre Matrix era. Yeah, 0:46:19.920 --> 0:46:22.759 a couple of rough ones. Yeah, because he is. 0:46:22.719 --> 0:46:24.440 The kind of actor where you feel like people were 0:46:24.440 --> 0:46:26.480 trying to figure out what roles he made sense in 0:46:26.600 --> 0:46:30.000 and this like I don't know if I feel like 0:46:30.040 --> 0:46:34.200 Tom Cruise would make more sense total role. I realized that, Yeah, 0:46:34.320 --> 0:46:37.479 recommending more Tom Cruise movies is a loaded thing to say. 0:46:37.560 --> 0:46:40.560 But I mean, but no, he's not the right Catholic intensity. 0:46:40.760 --> 0:46:44.719 You're absolutely right, Like I love Keanu, but I think 0:46:44.760 --> 0:46:49.600 he is more often than not horribly miscast. He's definitely 0:46:49.640 --> 0:46:52.920 almost never put in the right role, and you know, 0:46:52.960 --> 0:46:56.160 I'm not unhappy to see it necessarily, but. 0:46:56.040 --> 0:46:58.440 Especially in like the nineties, where it's like they just 0:46:58.520 --> 0:47:02.200 hadn't quite figured out where he because he's he's great 0:47:02.280 --> 0:47:05.239 in the right role, right in the wrong role. And 0:47:05.280 --> 0:47:07.799 he always fully commits too, which I feel like, unfortunately 0:47:07.920 --> 0:47:10.600 like kind of works against him sometimes because he's fully 0:47:10.640 --> 0:47:13.200 committing to like a weird choice, right, because you're like. 0:47:13.120 --> 0:47:16.080 You can tell how hard he's trying, but is maybe 0:47:16.200 --> 0:47:20.000 not doing a very good job sometimes. Allah his performance 0:47:20.120 --> 0:47:22.520 in Dracula, I didn't think. 0:47:22.440 --> 0:47:24.560 That he was because I was reading there like this 0:47:24.640 --> 0:47:26.480 is a bad key out of performance. I'm like, I 0:47:26.520 --> 0:47:28.960 didn't think it was like bad. It just didn't think 0:47:29.000 --> 0:47:30.200 it was good. It's not right. 0:47:30.400 --> 0:47:31.399 It's just not right for him. 0:47:31.480 --> 0:47:34.120 Yeah, it's also like it feels like it's not a 0:47:34.200 --> 0:47:37.360 protagonist role that you really have that much to do with, 0:47:37.480 --> 0:47:40.160 because like, isn't he gets mostly reacting to Steph. 0:47:41.360 --> 0:47:43.960 Yeah, it's like, I mean like al Pacino has like 0:47:44.000 --> 0:47:46.959 I mean, al Pacino is not miscast in this role, 0:47:47.040 --> 0:47:50.799 even though apparently he turned down this role three three 0:47:50.880 --> 0:47:54.920 different times because he was like it's too like trite, 0:47:55.280 --> 0:47:57.440 which he's right about, but I just I guess the 0:47:58.360 --> 0:48:01.120 he's he was like this is too and too trite, 0:48:01.760 --> 0:48:03.760 which makes sense because he is a really good actor, 0:48:03.840 --> 0:48:06.200 and that is true. But I guess they just said 0:48:06.200 --> 0:48:09.080 the right number, and he's like, all right, I'll do it. 0:48:09.280 --> 0:48:15.600 The theme of the movie everywhere goodness. Okay. 0:48:15.719 --> 0:48:20.759 So Kevin meanwhile, is working on this murder case with 0:48:20.960 --> 0:48:24.520 that Cullen guy who says he has an alibi, which 0:48:24.560 --> 0:48:27.800 is that he's been having an affair with his assistant 0:48:28.000 --> 0:48:30.640 and he was with her the night the murders happened, 0:48:31.520 --> 0:48:35.640 but Milton is considering taking Kevin off of this case 0:48:35.680 --> 0:48:39.400 because he sees how it's affecting Kevin and Marianne's marriage. 0:48:39.880 --> 0:48:43.359 But Kevin is like, no, I can have it all. 0:48:44.040 --> 0:48:46.960 It's a test. It's a test, and he passes. 0:48:46.760 --> 0:48:50.040 And he passes and he fails. 0:48:50.440 --> 0:48:53.800 Yeah, it's well for mary Anne, he feels. But I 0:48:54.040 --> 0:48:57.439 guess I interpreted that as like the Devil's like giving 0:48:57.560 --> 0:48:59.120 him a chance to do the right thing. And then 0:48:59.160 --> 0:49:01.719 he's like, no, I won't. Yeah, yeah, it's the whole 0:49:01.760 --> 0:49:05.080 free will Yeah, semi theme. Got is it a theme 0:49:05.200 --> 0:49:07.520 or is it guess something people mention a lot. It's 0:49:07.640 --> 0:49:10.719 I don't know that the free will thing towards the end. 0:49:10.840 --> 0:49:15.520 Yeah again. One of the many like weirdly executed, kind 0:49:15.520 --> 0:49:18.360 of iconic, campy things this movie does is like state 0:49:18.440 --> 0:49:21.120 the intended theme at the very end of the movie 0:49:21.640 --> 0:49:25.160 so loudly, how do you like them free wills? 0:49:26.520 --> 0:49:31.560 You're like, oh, I always like that, Yeah, it is fun. 0:49:31.920 --> 0:49:34.440 You're like, okay, so this movie is also insecure about 0:49:34.440 --> 0:49:36.720 what it's doing for sure. 0:49:38.160 --> 0:49:43.239 Then something happens with the Eddie Barzoon character, where what 0:49:43.360 --> 0:49:47.440 a name you know, yeah, he thinks Kevin is trying 0:49:47.480 --> 0:49:50.720 to take his job, and he's been doing some shady 0:49:50.960 --> 0:49:53.440 stuff and shredding a lot of doc in redding. 0:49:53.960 --> 0:49:56.480 Yes, not point break kind of shredding. 0:49:56.560 --> 0:50:00.920 Unfortunately he's getting Yeah, he's getting the shreddings. It feels 0:50:00.960 --> 0:50:03.000 like he's got a lot of refice to get through. 0:50:03.560 --> 0:50:08.000 Yes, And because of all of that question Mark Milton 0:50:08.800 --> 0:50:12.920 seems to send out some demons to kill Eddie Barzoon. 0:50:13.280 --> 0:50:16.319 This guy is cleverly as joggers, which you know, what's 0:50:16.360 --> 0:50:17.720 the difference Franklin. 0:50:17.560 --> 0:50:20.320 First as joggers, but then they kind of transform. 0:50:21.280 --> 0:50:23.919 In a way that's both like the lesson behind that one. 0:50:24.360 --> 0:50:27.160 Yeah, yeah, we can talk more about that, but either way, 0:50:27.520 --> 0:50:33.759 Barzoon dies, which Marianne sees from her window and she 0:50:33.920 --> 0:50:39.120 has a breakdown. So Kevin rushes to be with her, 0:50:39.440 --> 0:50:43.400 but not before he wins the Cullen case. Don't you worry, 0:50:43.440 --> 0:50:47.799 because he never loses. And he goes to be with Marianne, 0:50:48.280 --> 0:50:53.120 who tells Kevin that Milton came into their home and 0:50:53.400 --> 0:50:57.279 raped her, and Kevin's like, I don't believe you. That's 0:50:57.280 --> 0:51:01.600 impossible because I was with him all day. So Kevin 0:51:01.840 --> 0:51:06.000 takes Marianne to the hospital for like psychiatric intervention. He 0:51:06.040 --> 0:51:08.600 basically like has her committed, because are the. 0:51:08.520 --> 0:51:11.319 Full Virginia Manson and Candy Man treatment where you get 0:51:11.400 --> 0:51:13.560 strapped to a table and they wheel you away. I'm 0:51:13.600 --> 0:51:15.520 your useless husband is like, goodbye. 0:51:15.280 --> 0:51:18.240 Honey, I'm gonna give you a little kiss. Okay, goodbye. 0:51:18.719 --> 0:51:23.359 Yeah, and then she's saying, we have blood money on 0:51:23.360 --> 0:51:27.920 our hands. All the times that you one cases defending 0:51:28.160 --> 0:51:34.359 guilty clients, we are reaping the consequences of that now. 0:51:34.440 --> 0:51:40.040 And Kevin eventually realizes she's right, But it also he 0:51:40.080 --> 0:51:41.799 has to see a whole bunch of other things to 0:51:41.880 --> 0:51:46.440 fully believe it, such as and I was unclear exactly 0:51:46.440 --> 0:51:48.960 what was happening here, but I think the implication is 0:51:49.000 --> 0:51:54.120 that he sees Culin with Cullen's stepdaughter, who he has 0:51:54.160 --> 0:51:55.400 been sexually abusing. 0:51:56.000 --> 0:51:59.200 Yeah, oh, yeah, I missed that. 0:51:59.440 --> 0:52:02.960 It's super unclear. Oh, because we don't really see we 0:52:03.000 --> 0:52:05.480 don't get like a good look really at any point 0:52:05.600 --> 0:52:06.600 of the stepdaughter. 0:52:06.920 --> 0:52:10.359 But then they're together at Jeffrey Jones's funeral, which is 0:52:10.440 --> 0:52:15.040 like the ideal place for plot development. And yeah, because 0:52:15.040 --> 0:52:18.000 there's this whole thing where craigten Nelson has been making 0:52:18.000 --> 0:52:21.520 this big show about like I just care about my stepdaughter. 0:52:21.560 --> 0:52:24.839 I'm not allowed to see my stepdaughter anymore, and these 0:52:24.920 --> 0:52:27.400 murder charges are bogus and my big secret is that 0:52:27.440 --> 0:52:30.000 I was having an affair with another consenting adult. 0:52:30.080 --> 0:52:31.040 Yeah, that's the ticket. 0:52:31.719 --> 0:52:35.520 And I think it's that thing again of like Canna 0:52:35.600 --> 0:52:38.680 Reeves being like, wow, maybe I am defending an innocent 0:52:38.719 --> 0:52:41.839 client at this murder trial, which again is like, you're 0:52:41.880 --> 0:52:44.040 not going to make a living in criminal defense if 0:52:44.040 --> 0:52:48.279 you insist on having innocent clients, right you can. I 0:52:48.280 --> 0:52:52.719 feel like it makes more sense to focus on the 0:52:52.760 --> 0:52:55.160 sense of betrayal of like, oh, I thought I had 0:52:55.200 --> 0:52:57.920 a good understanding of who this person was morally and 0:52:57.960 --> 0:53:00.319 then it turns out that I completely mischecked them, and 0:53:00.360 --> 0:53:02.799 I feel like an idiot and like I didn't understand 0:53:03.440 --> 0:53:05.640 the terms of the bargain that I was making. Because 0:53:05.640 --> 0:53:10.760 then he gets acquitted and we see him like inappropriately 0:53:10.880 --> 0:53:17.799 touching his stepdaughter's back at Jeffrey Jones's funeral appropriately just right. 0:53:18.200 --> 0:53:21.560 Just can't even get into it. Yeah, that hadn't even 0:53:21.600 --> 0:53:24.680 really like connected for you, but you're totally right of 0:53:24.719 --> 0:53:29.200 like this character is not convincingly competent, like you don't 0:53:29.239 --> 0:53:32.280 believe he's the best lawyer, and it got. 0:53:32.080 --> 0:53:34.960 The football scholarship to law school, just like in Point Break. 0:53:36.719 --> 0:53:40.120 Well, it's like it helps his character development of like 0:53:40.160 --> 0:53:44.319 becoming a bad person if he knows and doesn't care, right, 0:53:45.120 --> 0:53:47.759 And it's not like the movie. The way that the 0:53:47.800 --> 0:53:50.400 movie wants him to be likable is like executed so 0:53:50.520 --> 0:53:54.040 weirdly because clearly the movie doesn't care if we think 0:53:54.080 --> 0:53:57.880 he's a good partner or not. He's never not screaming 0:53:57.920 --> 0:54:02.120 at Charlie's, so you're just like it's just weird. 0:54:02.560 --> 0:54:05.120 Yeah, right, it feels like they wrote all the other 0:54:05.200 --> 0:54:07.239 characters and then just had him sort of do what 0:54:07.280 --> 0:54:10.919 he had to do to make the scenes make sense. Right. Yeah, 0:54:10.920 --> 0:54:12.719 It's like he has to start off as someone who 0:54:12.800 --> 0:54:15.880 has no idea how to do his job properly in 0:54:16.040 --> 0:54:21.000 order to continue to be surprised, you know, because like, Yeah. 0:54:20.680 --> 0:54:23.560 Another Kanu line read that's going to be rattling around 0:54:23.560 --> 0:54:27.600 my head for years is when he was again his 0:54:27.719 --> 0:54:30.800 character who's a piece of shit, one might say the 0:54:30.840 --> 0:54:36.440 whole movie, Yeah, it is yelling at critinals and Secretary says, 0:54:36.520 --> 0:54:39.080 you've been polishing his knob for months and you don't 0:54:39.080 --> 0:54:42.359 know if he has foreskin. I was like, I don't 0:54:42.880 --> 0:54:46.760 don't yell foreskin at a lady. I'll say that even 0:54:46.800 --> 0:54:48.360 if you're prepping. 0:54:48.000 --> 0:54:51.040 A witness, write it on an index card and slide 0:54:51.080 --> 0:54:53.560 it across the table like it's a really high salary 0:54:53.680 --> 0:54:54.160 or something. 0:54:55.840 --> 0:54:58.839 That was just like such an unpleasant line. 0:54:58.760 --> 0:55:02.440 To hear, know, old writing choices. 0:55:02.800 --> 0:55:04.000 I also think that. 0:55:05.640 --> 0:55:09.319 In the supernatural vein this movie and Liar Liar, I 0:55:09.360 --> 0:55:13.280 think are both inspired by the O. J. Simpson Trial. 0:55:14.080 --> 0:55:18.120 It's one of my analyses, right because like we have 0:55:18.239 --> 0:55:22.280 this moment of like America feeling like a bit scandalized 0:55:22.520 --> 0:55:27.640 at criminal law and sort of what is maybe legally 0:55:27.680 --> 0:55:31.240 permissible but not morally permissible when you're mounting a defense, 0:55:32.080 --> 0:55:35.120 and that this movie and Liar Liar and Primal Fear, 0:55:35.120 --> 0:55:37.239 as I've mentioned before, but Liar Liar is a more 0:55:37.239 --> 0:55:40.000 fun comparison or about like what if you were a 0:55:40.000 --> 0:55:44.000 really good defense lawyer but then something supernatural happened, And 0:55:44.040 --> 0:55:49.719 it's also about appreciating your partner more. I guess, yeah, wow, 0:55:50.000 --> 0:55:53.600 I've never seen Liar Liar. Somehow, it's very fun it's 0:55:53.800 --> 0:55:56.759 Jim Carrey is a lawyer. He's having fun. I like, 0:55:56.960 --> 0:55:59.600 I like Jim Carrey. I realized that not everyone can 0:55:59.640 --> 0:56:02.440 handle I think I would like uncut Carrie. 0:56:02.640 --> 0:56:06.640 Yeah, so it's fun. It's also got like I know. 0:56:06.640 --> 0:56:10.080 I've made this joke somewhere before, but who cares. It's 0:56:10.120 --> 0:56:13.640 like one of those like light nineties comedies that just 0:56:13.719 --> 0:56:16.120 revealing what the economy was like back then. Has like 0:56:16.200 --> 0:56:20.880 a beautiful orchestral score that makes me imacgin like a 0:56:20.960 --> 0:56:25.080 coronette player in the bathroom, like honey, honey, I'm learning 0:56:25.080 --> 0:56:28.960 my part for a liar. Liar Honey. 0:56:29.120 --> 0:56:32.000 I've seen that movie probably twenty times between the ages 0:56:32.040 --> 0:56:35.920 of like eleven and twelve and then never again. 0:56:36.520 --> 0:56:39.840 So I bet you could recite it like a massa. 0:56:39.920 --> 0:56:40.279 I bet. 0:56:40.719 --> 0:56:41.080 I bet. 0:56:41.360 --> 0:56:44.600 Yeah, we should do. We should do like a maybe 0:56:44.600 --> 0:56:47.759 that's a Patreon theme or something like a lawyer brewery 0:56:48.040 --> 0:56:51.239 because it is interesting, like what whatever I mean? I know, Sarah, 0:56:51.280 --> 0:56:53.120 that's like so much of what your show is about, 0:56:53.239 --> 0:56:57.000 but like what our you know, pop culture perception of 0:56:57.239 --> 0:57:00.920 justice is depending on the given moment, and yeah, like 0:57:00.960 --> 0:57:04.880 this it feels almost like weird and Pollyanna ish for 0:57:05.360 --> 0:57:07.560 what this movie suggests, which is that the devil would 0:57:07.600 --> 0:57:10.640 have to intervene for a lawyer to act in bad faith, 0:57:10.880 --> 0:57:11.560 which is like. 0:57:12.120 --> 0:57:15.560 Great, yeah, And it's also it's interesting because it's like 0:57:16.200 --> 0:57:18.920 there are so many moments where it flirts with coherence, right, 0:57:18.960 --> 0:57:21.960 and like like this firm reminds me of like Wolfram 0:57:22.040 --> 0:57:25.000 and Heart from Angel, where they're like a law firm 0:57:25.040 --> 0:57:27.920 that very unsubtly, like we learn, is you know, up 0:57:27.920 --> 0:57:31.400 to all kinds of like shady, very high level international 0:57:31.400 --> 0:57:34.960 stuff that's all about like perpetuating wars and you know, 0:57:35.360 --> 0:57:39.040 keeping the working class down and doing like the real 0:57:39.160 --> 0:57:41.840 big corporate evil that I think is very different than 0:57:42.160 --> 0:57:45.600 just like being any defense lawyer protecting the rights of 0:57:45.640 --> 0:57:49.720 individuals in a trial setting. But it's like, but everyone 0:57:49.800 --> 0:57:54.320 hates successful criminal defense lawyers so much in nineteen ninety 0:57:54.360 --> 0:57:56.840 seven that the two kind of get like steamrolled together 0:57:56.880 --> 0:57:57.920 at a certain point. 0:57:58.160 --> 0:57:58.720 Yeah. 0:57:58.880 --> 0:58:04.680 Right, Well, because on Kevin's journey of realizing, not that 0:58:04.800 --> 0:58:12.600 maybe journey maybe Ken, we have to talk about Kevin 0:58:12.840 --> 0:58:14.120 or whatever that movie's called. 0:58:14.320 --> 0:58:17.720 We literally have to talk about Kevin. Wow, wow, wow, 0:58:17.800 --> 0:58:19.320 oh no, it's come to this. 0:58:19.720 --> 0:58:22.280 He's seeing all of this evidence that maybe the law 0:58:22.320 --> 0:58:27.240 firm he works for is demonic, because then some like 0:58:27.520 --> 0:58:29.560 I don't know if this is like an attorney general 0:58:29.640 --> 0:58:31.960 or something. But he goes up to Kevin and he's like, 0:58:32.480 --> 0:58:35.800 by the way, your law firm is tied up in 0:58:36.120 --> 0:58:40.120 arms dealing and chemical weapons and money laundering and all 0:58:40.120 --> 0:58:43.120 this stuff. And so rather than Kevin, you know, just 0:58:43.360 --> 0:58:46.560 listening to his wife and believing her, he's like, well, 0:58:46.680 --> 0:58:50.360 now I have a sneaking suspicion that maybe where I 0:58:50.440 --> 0:58:51.360 work is evil. 0:58:51.480 --> 0:58:53.880 A guy from the Justice Department or whatever came and 0:58:53.920 --> 0:58:56.920 bothered me. So yeah, he set me straight, and so 0:58:57.000 --> 0:58:57.919 now I believe it. 0:58:57.960 --> 0:59:01.960 Which I do think is how a lot of men behave. 0:59:02.800 --> 0:59:06.560 But it makes it harder to believe the character has 0:59:06.640 --> 0:59:09.280 grown and changed because of how late in the movie 0:59:09.360 --> 0:59:10.480 that happened. 0:59:11.640 --> 0:59:14.280 Because he never actually believes his wife. No, you just 0:59:14.400 --> 0:59:17.040 know he gets the information elsewhere. 0:59:17.200 --> 0:59:20.160 And he also iconically barely reacts when he's like no, 0:59:20.240 --> 0:59:22.600 I mean he reacts when she dies, but then it 0:59:22.680 --> 0:59:27.040 sort of is like for two seconds anyway, and then anyways, WHOA. 0:59:26.880 --> 0:59:28.640 That was weird, Like, well, I gotta be back in 0:59:28.720 --> 0:59:31.439 court in twenty so I'll react. 0:59:31.160 --> 0:59:34.560 Later in some ways it ends up working out for 0:59:34.680 --> 0:59:35.320 my schedule. 0:59:35.360 --> 0:59:40.120 You're like, oh, well, okay, So what happens next is 0:59:40.160 --> 0:59:44.840 that at the hospital, Marianne takes her own life, and 0:59:45.320 --> 0:59:49.800 while that's happening, Kevin's mother, who's back in town, reveals 0:59:49.840 --> 0:59:53.560 this big secret that she has met John Milton many 0:59:53.640 --> 0:59:58.400 years before and actually he's Kevin's father. 0:59:59.400 --> 1:00:01.880 That twist was for still added. That twist is not 1:00:01.920 --> 1:00:03.680 in the original and the source of material, like most 1:00:03.680 --> 1:00:06.080 of the ending, is added for the movie. But I 1:00:06.120 --> 1:00:09.160 also it's interesting as as goofy as it is. I 1:00:09.200 --> 1:00:12.640 was sort of like, wait, Kevin's mom is fucking. 1:00:12.760 --> 1:00:14.760 And she's fucking the devil. 1:00:15.760 --> 1:00:18.000 Kevin's mom had sex when the Devil. 1:00:18.040 --> 1:00:20.160 I feel like we're speeding past that part. 1:00:20.000 --> 1:00:24.000 Like I want I wanted to cut away. I wanted 1:00:24.040 --> 1:00:26.440 to cut away with the Marvelettes playing in the background. 1:00:26.440 --> 1:00:32.080 Well, it's also not super clear how consensual that interaction 1:00:32.920 --> 1:00:33.439 might have been. 1:00:33.720 --> 1:00:36.040 For my own sanity, I would like to think that 1:00:36.120 --> 1:00:38.960 it was. But yeah, it's a very. 1:00:38.360 --> 1:00:41.000 I'm gonna I'm gonna for also for the sake of 1:00:41.040 --> 1:00:43.160 my own brain, to say that it was consensual, because 1:00:43.160 --> 1:00:45.200 then it can still be funny but also, I mean 1:00:45.240 --> 1:00:48.880 that is like how and again you're like, okay, he's 1:00:48.960 --> 1:00:53.440 the devil, but how freely sexual assault and rape is 1:00:53.680 --> 1:00:56.360 just like tossed around as a plot point in this movie. 1:00:56.400 --> 1:01:01.320 You're just like yeah, yeah, And it's like the nineties 1:01:01.400 --> 1:01:03.560 model of ladies Man, where it's like, well, he was 1:01:03.600 --> 1:01:06.400 constantly surrounded by a vulnerable young woman who he was 1:01:06.440 --> 1:01:09.680 taking advantage of, so ladies man, and it's like that's right. 1:01:10.080 --> 1:01:12.360 It's like the opposite of that. It's like a man 1:01:12.400 --> 1:01:14.880 who's the enemy of all ladies, right. 1:01:14.840 --> 1:01:17.680 Yes, yeah, I'm like Keanu Reeves, who is a real 1:01:17.800 --> 1:01:18.400 ladies man. 1:01:18.640 --> 1:01:20.000 The ladies love him. 1:01:20.000 --> 1:01:22.200 It's true, lady, Yeah, he's a fine wine. 1:01:22.920 --> 1:01:23.439 It's true. 1:01:24.120 --> 1:01:29.439 So Kevin learns that John Milton is his father. He's 1:01:29.480 --> 1:01:34.720 also piecing together that Milton is the devil, so he 1:01:34.800 --> 1:01:36.400 goes to confront Milton. 1:01:36.480 --> 1:01:39.960 It's going through a lot again, a very funny reaction 1:01:40.160 --> 1:01:46.120 from Keanu where he's like oh what, like he seems 1:01:46.160 --> 1:01:50.240 like kind of like more annoyed than shocked, where he's like, stop, 1:01:50.360 --> 1:01:53.560 don't tell me this today on the day of my 1:01:53.680 --> 1:01:58.080 wife's tragic passing. Stop, Like he's so weird. 1:01:58.720 --> 1:02:02.800 Yeah, And so he goes to Milton, and his suspicions 1:02:03.160 --> 1:02:06.480 that Milton is the Devil are confirmed, which means that 1:02:06.600 --> 1:02:13.400 Kevin is half devil or something like Spock. Yeah yeah, 1:02:13.440 --> 1:02:18.000 and now Kevin has to reconcile his past choices and 1:02:18.080 --> 1:02:23.960 behavior because Kevin has acted of his own free will. 1:02:24.000 --> 1:02:27.800 Milton explains that as the devil, he simply sets the stage, 1:02:28.280 --> 1:02:32.760 but he doesn't make anyone do anything. So Kevin making 1:02:32.760 --> 1:02:36.680 a shitload of money defending sex criminals and murderers, and 1:02:36.840 --> 1:02:40.840 Kevin neglecting his wife, all of that was his own doing, 1:02:41.480 --> 1:02:44.200 and Kevin has to like sort through. 1:02:44.000 --> 1:02:47.000 That, which I think is in some ways you could 1:02:47.080 --> 1:02:49.440 view that as the twist of the movie, being that 1:02:49.480 --> 1:02:56.040 men are accountable for their actions. And he's like, what not, Yeah, 1:02:56.080 --> 1:02:58.840 that is like pretty good. I think that's as coherent 1:02:58.920 --> 1:03:02.320 as this thing gets. I do like that. Yeah, yeah, 1:03:02.360 --> 1:03:02.840 it's fun. 1:03:03.280 --> 1:03:07.680 And then Christabella shows up. She is Kevin's half sister 1:03:07.800 --> 1:03:10.000 because Milton is also her father. 1:03:10.520 --> 1:03:12.960 They also added this for the movie, and you're like, 1:03:13.960 --> 1:03:15.040 was that necessary? 1:03:15.320 --> 1:03:18.920 But like, we haven't had enough non assault related nudity, so. 1:03:19.320 --> 1:03:22.760 Let's and let's just throw incest into the conversation. While 1:03:22.760 --> 1:03:23.960 we're at it precisely. 1:03:24.040 --> 1:03:26.600 Yeah, this is the point where if you're editing it 1:03:26.640 --> 1:03:30.280 down for TNT, I do not feel jealous of your job. 1:03:30.360 --> 1:03:33.959 Right now, the movie just abruptly stops, like we don't 1:03:34.000 --> 1:03:34.480 know what to do. 1:03:34.600 --> 1:03:37.560 We don't know what to do, but it's not found right. 1:03:37.520 --> 1:03:42.640 Because after Cristabella shows up, Milton wants Kevin to in 1:03:42.840 --> 1:03:48.760 gregnate her so as to conceive the Antichrist. 1:03:48.080 --> 1:03:51.560 But also as like the children of the Devil, aren't 1:03:51.560 --> 1:03:53.880 they the Antichrist? And do they come together to make 1:03:53.880 --> 1:03:56.560 a whole Antichrist? Or is it an anti Antichrist? Is 1:03:56.560 --> 1:03:59.000 it an antipasto? It's very confusing. 1:03:59.120 --> 1:04:01.320 Yeah, do they cancel each other out? If they have 1:04:01.360 --> 1:04:03.720 sex and have a baby. Is it just the second 1:04:03.720 --> 1:04:04.520 coming of Christ? 1:04:04.640 --> 1:04:04.800 Yeah? 1:04:04.840 --> 1:04:06.440 What if they accidentally make Jesus? 1:04:07.000 --> 1:04:09.840 Yeah. I was also a little unclear on why it 1:04:09.920 --> 1:04:12.280 was so urgent to do it right at that moment, 1:04:12.680 --> 1:04:15.520 not that that is like the biggest even in the 1:04:15.560 --> 1:04:18.440 top ten issues going on in this scene, but I 1:04:18.480 --> 1:04:23.000 was like, okay, okay, so it is all of these disgusting, 1:04:23.040 --> 1:04:25.600 horrible things, but couldn't it be next week? 1:04:25.960 --> 1:04:28.920 Like it's all tied with the political situation in Hong Kong. 1:04:29.200 --> 1:04:33.000 You know it's well he also I the just whatever, 1:04:33.040 --> 1:04:36.040 the ham fistedness of the end, which is I like, 1:04:36.120 --> 1:04:38.640 it is super campy and goofy. But when he's like 1:04:38.920 --> 1:04:42.520 the twentieth century that never was on fire in the 1:04:42.640 --> 1:04:45.640 twentieth century, You're like, yeah, whatever. 1:04:45.360 --> 1:04:48.960 Okay, great, sure, I would like I think you should 1:04:48.960 --> 1:04:53.040 do a Patreon feature. That's just you reciting Alpachino's monologues 1:04:53.080 --> 1:04:55.680 from the end of this movie. 1:04:56.720 --> 1:04:59.800 He talks so much in this last scene he will 1:04:59.840 --> 1:05:00.880 not shut up. 1:05:00.960 --> 1:05:03.440 I like it, really he needs a power point. Really, 1:05:04.160 --> 1:05:06.320 he kind of is giving a ted talk at the 1:05:06.440 --> 1:05:11.919 end about the devil's behavior throughout the twentieth century. You're like, what, 1:05:12.040 --> 1:05:15.400 and which brings me to my conclusion. You have to 1:05:15.480 --> 1:05:18.520 have sex with your sister right now to conceive the Antichrist. 1:05:19.840 --> 1:05:23.520 And Kevin is acting like he's about to do that, 1:05:24.080 --> 1:05:26.800 but instead he shoots. 1:05:26.480 --> 1:05:30.400 Himself because the devil is omniscient but not telepathic evidently, 1:05:30.520 --> 1:05:32.440 or maybe it doesn't work on your own kids. If 1:05:32.440 --> 1:05:34.360 they had made this into a show, we would have 1:05:34.400 --> 1:05:35.959 gotten more lore. It would have been fun. 1:05:36.000 --> 1:05:39.560 But oh well, and the very flimsy because it's like, 1:05:39.600 --> 1:05:41.040 it feels like the movie just has to end at 1:05:41.040 --> 1:05:43.160 this point because there's been too many plot points introduced. 1:05:43.160 --> 1:05:46.760 They're like, we gotta stop, we gotta stop. But Keanu, 1:05:46.920 --> 1:05:54.240 being like justifying willingly participating in ancestual assault, He's like, well, 1:05:54.680 --> 1:05:57.840 that's where a crush on you. No, but it for 1:05:57.960 --> 1:06:00.120 he's about to do it because he had a crush 1:06:00.160 --> 1:06:00.960 are at work. 1:06:01.600 --> 1:06:06.520 You're just like, yeah, yeah, but he's But he stops 1:06:06.560 --> 1:06:09.600 and he shoots himself, which makes Milton burst into flames, 1:06:09.640 --> 1:06:12.800 and which makes Cristabella shrivel. 1:06:12.520 --> 1:06:13.080 Up and die. 1:06:13.440 --> 1:06:15.600 Yeah, she turns into a piece of drift. What I 1:06:15.640 --> 1:06:16.800 think that's pretty fun. 1:06:17.400 --> 1:06:20.120 Yeah, that's what happens to women who aren't having sex 1:06:20.160 --> 1:06:21.680 with Keanu Reeves in this movie. 1:06:22.440 --> 1:06:25.400 That actually happens if he stopped being sexually active for 1:06:25.440 --> 1:06:28.320 a full twenty minutes, he can start desiccating. 1:06:28.640 --> 1:06:33.160 Yes, so they seem to die, or at least Crystabella does, 1:06:33.400 --> 1:06:38.760 but Kevin doesn't die despite the gunshot wound to his head. Instead, 1:06:39.080 --> 1:06:42.320 he's transported back to the scene at the beginning of 1:06:42.360 --> 1:06:45.960 the movie where he's defending that teacher who abuses his students, 1:06:46.720 --> 1:06:49.360 and he he's like, oh my god, I have a 1:06:49.400 --> 1:06:52.800 second chance. I can redeem myself. So he quits the 1:06:52.840 --> 1:06:55.560 case mid trial, which you're not supposed to do. 1:06:56.040 --> 1:06:57.960 You're not supposed to do that and all. No, but 1:06:58.240 --> 1:07:03.600 the optics of if this was some weird like fantasy 1:07:03.720 --> 1:07:08.160 he had at the urinal or whatever, like, it sort 1:07:08.200 --> 1:07:10.360 of feels like that. But then he goes back into 1:07:10.360 --> 1:07:14.640 this very serious trial, this trial where a child has 1:07:14.640 --> 1:07:17.360 been assaulted, and he starts making out with his wife. 1:07:17.520 --> 1:07:20.600 I was like, oh, yeah, god, Kevin, it's a very. 1:07:20.400 --> 1:07:23.240 Good point, and also like what's gonna happen? Like is 1:07:23.280 --> 1:07:26.480 it going to be a mistrial? And then your you know, 1:07:26.720 --> 1:07:29.480 child plaintiff has to go through all this again, like 1:07:29.680 --> 1:07:32.840 use your head, piano. I realize you can't as this character. 1:07:33.080 --> 1:07:37.040 But yeah, but isn't it just wonderful that the ending 1:07:37.080 --> 1:07:39.640 of this movie is it was all a dreamer? Was 1:07:39.680 --> 1:07:40.920 it is? 1:07:41.440 --> 1:07:43.840 It's the only thing this movie hasn't done at this 1:07:43.960 --> 1:07:48.840 point that you're like sure, like, oh, okay, we're doing it. 1:07:49.000 --> 1:07:54.600 And then al Pacino is, uh, the vanity is my favorite. Shit, 1:07:54.840 --> 1:07:56.240 You're like, what. 1:07:56.600 --> 1:07:59.960 He's playing a journalist, the other most evil profession according 1:07:59.960 --> 1:08:00.880 to the nineties. 1:08:01.160 --> 1:08:02.560 Yeah, that's true. 1:08:02.800 --> 1:08:05.400 That's true because the way the movie ends is this 1:08:06.200 --> 1:08:09.560 minor journalist character who we've seen before, but only at 1:08:09.600 --> 1:08:14.280 the very beginning. At the very end, he transforms into 1:08:14.560 --> 1:08:19.040 al Pacino, looks directly at the camera says, ah, yeah, 1:08:19.200 --> 1:08:22.360 vanity my favorite sin, and then he like winks and 1:08:22.400 --> 1:08:23.559 then cut to black. 1:08:24.720 --> 1:08:28.000 I love it, And then I think, honestly, this movie 1:08:28.040 --> 1:08:30.840 that has no restraint. I was really impressed that they 1:08:31.000 --> 1:08:34.280 had the restraint to spend a million dollars on painted 1:08:34.400 --> 1:08:36.840 black instead of sympathy for the devil. I thought that 1:08:36.840 --> 1:08:39.720 that was probably really hard for them to not use 1:08:39.720 --> 1:08:43.760 sympathy for the devil in this movie every single time 1:08:43.760 --> 1:08:46.280 al Pacino was on screen. And also sympathy for the 1:08:46.280 --> 1:08:48.960 devil had just been used in Legion or whatever the 1:08:49.080 --> 1:08:52.599 Denzel Washington Oh movie is, so maybe it was feeling 1:08:52.720 --> 1:08:56.679 like overplayed. So it does end kind of Judy Dungeon 1:08:56.760 --> 1:09:01.760 cat style at the end, you have just. 1:09:01.880 --> 1:09:05.719 A tale of cats, Like that's sort of the vibe 1:09:06.080 --> 1:09:06.559 of Alba. 1:09:07.040 --> 1:09:08.720 It is like that I. 1:09:08.640 --> 1:09:11.200 Would watch I'm actually watching this on a double bill 1:09:11.240 --> 1:09:14.360 with cats, like you would emerge no longer able to 1:09:14.439 --> 1:09:16.120 do math, you know, you. 1:09:15.960 --> 1:09:20.879 Would really be like I can't read. I don't remember 1:09:20.920 --> 1:09:23.200 where I'm from. 1:09:23.800 --> 1:09:26.439 Fallen is the Denzel Washington movie I'm thinking of when 1:09:26.439 --> 1:09:28.400 that came out in nineteen ninety eight, So that could 1:09:28.400 --> 1:09:31.879 be your Demonic Rolling Stones double feature as well. 1:09:31.920 --> 1:09:35.599 I did not. No, I also feel like Scorsese uses 1:09:35.640 --> 1:09:38.599 a needle drop with that song in like four hundred 1:09:38.600 --> 1:09:39.200 of his movies. 1:09:39.360 --> 1:09:43.040 Yeah, nobody loves the Rolling Stones like Scorsese loves the 1:09:43.120 --> 1:09:46.120 Rolling Stones. I'm convinced that's true, and that's why he 1:09:46.200 --> 1:09:49.920 is Father Cannon And spoilers for the ending of Angel Heart, 1:09:50.160 --> 1:09:53.559 where by the way, de Niro is playing playing the 1:09:53.560 --> 1:09:56.439 devil but doing a Scorsese impression in order to play 1:09:56.479 --> 1:09:59.599 the devil. But it's like, what if Scorsese had long 1:09:59.680 --> 1:10:02.840 nail and it was always eating eggs. It's like, yeah, 1:10:02.880 --> 1:10:03.320 what if? 1:10:03.400 --> 1:10:05.120 What if? I'm in? 1:10:05.479 --> 1:10:08.600 And then it ends spoilers for Angel Heart, which is 1:10:08.640 --> 1:10:09.759 a very strange movie. 1:10:09.840 --> 1:10:11.160 I heard of it. Well. 1:10:11.160 --> 1:10:14.360 It ends with Mickey Rourke realizing that he's been had 1:10:14.520 --> 1:10:16.400 and that he just hasked to go to hell now, 1:10:16.600 --> 1:10:18.599 and he just goes to Hell and that's the end, 1:10:18.640 --> 1:10:20.679 and you're like, wow, I don't I mean, I didn't 1:10:20.680 --> 1:10:24.080 really like that character, but I don't really feel like. 1:10:24.080 --> 1:10:25.559 He deserves to go to hell. 1:10:25.760 --> 1:10:27.920 No, we're ending in hell. Okay, that's the end of 1:10:27.960 --> 1:10:30.640 the movie. And there's just like there's something to me 1:10:30.760 --> 1:10:33.439 that's so revealing about like these two endings where it's 1:10:33.479 --> 1:10:36.320 like you tangle with the devil, you don't really get 1:10:36.320 --> 1:10:39.400 the chance to make choices. He does a lot of speeches, 1:10:39.520 --> 1:10:42.800 and then at the end you either suffer all consequences 1:10:42.880 --> 1:10:45.840 or no consequences. Yeah, because it feels like it was 1:10:45.880 --> 1:10:47.840 never really about what you did. It's just about the 1:10:47.880 --> 1:10:51.799 sort of like feeling and masculinity of being damned. 1:10:51.800 --> 1:10:54.519 I don't know, right, Well, I guess if you're looking 1:10:54.600 --> 1:10:57.080 at the movie like it was all a dream, a 1:10:57.200 --> 1:10:59.720 vision of what his life could have been had he 1:11:00.320 --> 1:11:01.960 you know, sold out. 1:11:01.880 --> 1:11:05.759 He continue to do the job he does, right. 1:11:05.960 --> 1:11:08.439 Or is it that all of those events did happen 1:11:08.840 --> 1:11:12.519 and then he just gets like the biggest magic chance 1:11:12.560 --> 1:11:16.920 at redemption ever, which like he did not deserve. What 1:11:17.040 --> 1:11:21.880 has he done to earn any kind of redemption? Absolutely nothing. 1:11:22.040 --> 1:11:22.680 The moral of. 1:11:22.640 --> 1:11:25.000 This movie is if you die of suicide, you get 1:11:25.040 --> 1:11:28.920 a do over, which is not really what we needed 1:11:28.960 --> 1:11:33.200 to be telling people, And also he transforms into Jesus 1:11:33.240 --> 1:11:35.160 for a second. 1:11:35.560 --> 1:11:39.040 God, I keep missing Jesus, but with wings so like 1:11:39.080 --> 1:11:39.719 an angel. 1:11:39.800 --> 1:11:42.080 You can't take your eyes off this movie for a second. 1:11:42.120 --> 1:11:43.000 It's like a toddler. 1:11:43.280 --> 1:11:48.120 Some shit's gonna happen. It's very bizarre. 1:11:49.280 --> 1:11:51.960 Well, let's take a quick break and then we will 1:11:52.120 --> 1:12:01.200 come back to discuss. 1:12:03.880 --> 1:12:08.760 And we're back, Sarah. I would love to, if you're down, 1:12:09.000 --> 1:12:13.200 start this discussion with a little understanding of like the 1:12:13.520 --> 1:12:17.960 historical context that this movie was coming out into. What 1:12:18.080 --> 1:12:20.479 was the I know we've sort of been like talking 1:12:20.560 --> 1:12:23.439 around this for much of the episode, but like, what 1:12:23.760 --> 1:12:28.200 was the state of Satanic media in the late nineties. 1:12:28.840 --> 1:12:31.200 Oh wow, Yeah, I mean I feel like we had 1:12:31.240 --> 1:12:33.800 stuff and we can see it in this movie, kind 1:12:33.800 --> 1:12:37.559 of referencing the millennium approaching and asking this question of 1:12:37.600 --> 1:12:40.920 like what kind of a millennium are we going to have? 1:12:41.680 --> 1:12:43.640 Which is very interesting to try and think back to 1:12:43.760 --> 1:12:47.559 in a pre nine to eleven context, because it turned 1:12:47.560 --> 1:12:49.880 out that the kind of millennium the United States was 1:12:49.920 --> 1:12:52.240 going to have, at least so far, would have the 1:12:52.280 --> 1:12:57.839 tone set for us by turning an act of terrorism 1:12:57.880 --> 1:13:02.479 and tragedy into an opportunity to destabilize an entire region 1:13:02.479 --> 1:13:05.520 while searching for profit and claiming to be getting revenge 1:13:05.600 --> 1:13:10.320 while actually doing something unrelated and relying on the average Americans' 1:13:10.680 --> 1:13:14.840 misunderstandings about geography in order to you know, make a 1:13:14.880 --> 1:13:18.800 lot of money for Halliburton. So it feels like, interestingly, 1:13:18.880 --> 1:13:22.080 the kind of millennium that we started off with with 1:13:22.280 --> 1:13:26.040 our decision to start a war in the Middle East 1:13:27.320 --> 1:13:29.960 was one where we got to do anything we wanted 1:13:29.960 --> 1:13:34.080 by playing the victim. And I think that that's there's 1:13:34.160 --> 1:13:38.000 kind of an interesting It's just interesting to see this movie, 1:13:38.040 --> 1:13:41.200 I think partly because it feels like a combination of 1:13:41.240 --> 1:13:45.200 like these ideas that we had that I think America 1:13:45.240 --> 1:13:47.960 has historically used about Satan, where I think Satan is 1:13:48.040 --> 1:13:50.360 kind of the great American scapegoat, where like, if you're 1:13:50.400 --> 1:13:56.080 claiming to eradicate Satan, you can behave pretty horribly, but 1:13:56.400 --> 1:13:58.080 if you're claiming to be on the right side of 1:13:58.080 --> 1:14:00.720 a holy war, then whatever you do is pretty much justified, 1:14:01.080 --> 1:14:03.719 including genocide if you're talking about the way that North 1:14:03.720 --> 1:14:08.120 America was colonized. And then the very like robust nineties 1:14:08.160 --> 1:14:11.639 genre of the courtroom drama, which I think feels itself 1:14:11.680 --> 1:14:16.479 to be this very rational, academic kind of mode of 1:14:16.520 --> 1:14:20.080 storytelling that helps make people feel smarter for consuming, or 1:14:20.080 --> 1:14:21.800 at least I think that's part of the basis for 1:14:21.840 --> 1:14:24.439 the appeal, but really is able to tell these highly 1:14:24.439 --> 1:14:28.920 emotional stories that allow Americans to feel that the Constitution 1:14:29.120 --> 1:14:32.200 is often this annoying thing that gets in the way 1:14:32.360 --> 1:14:36.599 of punishing defendants a little bit too freely because it's 1:14:36.640 --> 1:14:39.120 politically popular and it's fun to be vindictive. 1:14:41.160 --> 1:14:45.559 Fuck, okay, Sarah, Sarah, you're so smart. 1:14:45.920 --> 1:14:49.040 And also we you know, Starbucks has like upholstered chairs. 1:14:49.080 --> 1:14:51.720 At this time, it's just like a wild time to 1:14:51.760 --> 1:14:56.880 be alive. I guess I want to impress you guys. 1:14:56.920 --> 1:15:03.720 You're so smart. No, I mean, yes, that's like so 1:15:03.800 --> 1:15:07.080 much to think about, but I agree, like because I 1:15:07.160 --> 1:15:12.200 what I was struggling with, I guess was not really 1:15:12.240 --> 1:15:16.439 putting myself in the audience for this, but like trying 1:15:16.439 --> 1:15:19.360 to understand what did the movie want you to walk 1:15:19.400 --> 1:15:24.519 away thinking, which I think is it's hard to know, 1:15:25.360 --> 1:15:29.240 mostly a craft issue that we don't know. But I'm curious. 1:15:29.240 --> 1:15:31.599 I just I'm like, I was really kind of racking 1:15:31.640 --> 1:15:33.559 my brain, and that's why I was looking at like 1:15:33.560 --> 1:15:36.400 adaptation changes and stuff like that to be like, huh, 1:15:36.439 --> 1:15:42.080 what did this very successful movie want us to leave 1:15:42.200 --> 1:15:46.559 thinking about? And I guess what? I could not figure 1:15:46.560 --> 1:15:46.800 it out. 1:15:47.400 --> 1:15:52.200 I still don't know. I have similar questions not only 1:15:52.240 --> 1:15:56.920 regarding the movie overall, the overall narrative and themes, but 1:15:57.000 --> 1:16:01.080 also as they relate to how we're supposed to view 1:16:01.320 --> 1:16:04.439 Mary Anne as a character, how we are supposed to 1:16:04.479 --> 1:16:06.880 be perceiving her, and whether or not we were supposed 1:16:06.880 --> 1:16:11.559 to be empathizing with her or what. 1:16:11.640 --> 1:16:15.839 Exactly My view was that will leving because I feel 1:16:15.840 --> 1:16:20.000 like I don't know. She's not a well written character, right, 1:16:20.360 --> 1:16:23.160 but she's better written than I thought she would be 1:16:23.280 --> 1:16:25.280 in that at least for a good chunk of the movie. 1:16:25.320 --> 1:16:29.000 The things she does have narrative consequence, which most movie 1:16:29.040 --> 1:16:31.320 wives that is just not the case. I felt like 1:16:31.400 --> 1:16:35.400 we started by empathizing with her and then we end 1:16:35.439 --> 1:16:37.840 by pitying her, which is, like I thought, like a 1:16:37.960 --> 1:16:40.200 very unpleasant turn of events. 1:16:41.080 --> 1:16:46.480 That plus I well, because like she starts out, especially 1:16:46.560 --> 1:16:49.720 upon them moving to New York and Kevin accepting this 1:16:49.800 --> 1:16:51.960 job and they move into this big, beautiful apartment and 1:16:52.000 --> 1:16:57.200 now she's tasked because she's the his wife who has 1:16:57.240 --> 1:16:59.679 given up her job. I think her job in Florida 1:16:59.800 --> 1:17:03.720 was she was selling repossessed cars. 1:17:04.120 --> 1:17:06.040 Yeah, I mean it was like she was doing something 1:17:06.080 --> 1:17:07.479 alone shark related. 1:17:07.520 --> 1:17:10.080 Yeah, so she was also doing both kind of dirt bags, 1:17:10.120 --> 1:17:12.360 but like you know, she had a she was a 1:17:12.400 --> 1:17:14.479 career dirt bag, and he took that from her. 1:17:14.720 --> 1:17:16.559 Get a cell phone and a little suit, and she 1:17:16.720 --> 1:17:18.799 was like doing business on the side of a highway, 1:17:18.840 --> 1:17:22.160 which is just such a nineties feminism girl boss thing 1:17:22.160 --> 1:17:22.519 to show. 1:17:22.960 --> 1:17:25.120 Yeah, it's like when Julia Robberts knows how to fix 1:17:25.160 --> 1:17:27.559 a car and you're supposed to be like and you're like, 1:17:27.640 --> 1:17:29.120 they really do do something there. 1:17:30.800 --> 1:17:35.040 She moved to New York and she starts. The two 1:17:35.080 --> 1:17:38.720 things we know about her at that point are that 1:17:38.920 --> 1:17:44.599 she wants desperately to have a baby and she doesn't 1:17:44.640 --> 1:17:48.000 know how to decorate her apartment. And we're like, okay, 1:17:48.080 --> 1:17:49.760 can we get maybe a third thing? 1:17:50.080 --> 1:17:53.559 Like what see? I felt like the apartments of it's 1:17:53.560 --> 1:17:56.280 super clunky. Like I do feel what they're trying to 1:17:56.320 --> 1:17:59.280 do there is like she's a society wife now and 1:17:59.320 --> 1:18:02.880 there's like class tension between her and everyone's surrounded by 1:18:03.720 --> 1:18:06.320 and it does pay off on that, but like for 1:18:06.400 --> 1:18:09.559 her again, like I just I don't know, Like there 1:18:09.560 --> 1:18:11.799 were things that I'm like, Okay, it's being done badly, 1:18:11.840 --> 1:18:14.200 but I think I get what they're trying to do, 1:18:14.800 --> 1:18:18.120 But this I don't know, Like just like the same 1:18:18.160 --> 1:18:20.479 thing with Jackie, who at first I was like, Okay, 1:18:20.560 --> 1:18:24.160 is this going to be a super prescriptive black best 1:18:24.200 --> 1:18:27.040 friend character that we saw so much throughout the nineties, 1:18:27.840 --> 1:18:32.040 And the answer is yes and also opposite, like I 1:18:32.040 --> 1:18:34.720 don't know, and also she's a demon, so yeah, I 1:18:36.400 --> 1:18:40.000 just don't think Jackie should have been either al Pacino 1:18:40.200 --> 1:18:43.800 nor a demon, because it does end up feeling like 1:18:44.320 --> 1:18:47.920 Mariann almost has someone to talk to, and I feel 1:18:47.960 --> 1:18:50.360 like it would have been a more interesting and cohesive 1:18:50.439 --> 1:18:55.880 choice to write Jackie an actual character and have them 1:18:55.920 --> 1:18:59.880 like going through this together or like, I don't know, 1:19:00.200 --> 1:19:03.280 like it just felt so clunky the way that like 1:19:03.760 --> 1:19:06.679 there were elements introduced about mary Anne that like didn't 1:19:06.720 --> 1:19:09.439 pay off or like went away because they're like she's 1:19:09.920 --> 1:19:12.120 going mad kind of thing. 1:19:12.600 --> 1:19:15.360 Yeah, right, Oh my gosh, I've there's so much to 1:19:15.479 --> 1:19:20.599 unpack here. There's a scene where Marianne and Jackie are 1:19:20.760 --> 1:19:23.720 talking and mary Anne is trying to adjust to this 1:19:23.840 --> 1:19:26.960 new life she had been accustomed to working. She says 1:19:27.000 --> 1:19:29.720 something like, this is the first time since I was 1:19:29.800 --> 1:19:32.639 thirteen years old where I haven't had at least one job. 1:19:33.040 --> 1:19:35.640 She liked to be out in the workforce, and she 1:19:35.880 --> 1:19:38.559 liked to be occupied with something that wasn't just like 1:19:38.680 --> 1:19:43.880 domestic tasks and decorating her house. So she's like lamenting 1:19:43.920 --> 1:19:48.200 about this to Jackie. Jackie's just like, what are you 1:19:48.280 --> 1:19:52.080 complaining about. Our husbands are rich and just enjoy the money. 1:19:52.160 --> 1:19:54.840 Let's go shopping and drink chardonnay all day. 1:19:55.000 --> 1:19:57.280 And you're like, wait, she's being written so poorly. And 1:19:57.280 --> 1:19:59.960 then later it's like, no, we rude her mad on purpose. 1:20:00.160 --> 1:20:03.360 She's the consumption demon. You're like, what. 1:20:04.080 --> 1:20:09.080 Right, And it's evil to get any sort of cosmetic surgery, 1:20:09.600 --> 1:20:14.280 And but she's written to be this like very you know, vapid, vein, 1:20:15.640 --> 1:20:18.639 like spending money frivolously kind of person. 1:20:19.320 --> 1:20:23.479 Well, it's just like the very like gendered way that 1:20:23.600 --> 1:20:27.920 like sin is presented to where it's like everyone it's 1:20:27.960 --> 1:20:31.519 not like the women are worse than the it's but 1:20:31.600 --> 1:20:34.040 it's like they're they're quote aqut bad in these very 1:20:34.040 --> 1:20:37.920 stereotypical ways where it's like their sins are vanity and 1:20:38.000 --> 1:20:42.120 their sins are like consumption, and then men's sins are 1:20:42.320 --> 1:20:45.920 like greed and artisty like, and there's really no overlap 1:20:46.040 --> 1:20:50.000 except for the character of Pam. Pam is the only 1:20:50.080 --> 1:20:52.600 woman who has a career, and I do feel like 1:20:52.640 --> 1:20:55.639 we are allowed to well, I guess that, so does 1:20:56.640 --> 1:21:00.479 what's her name, missus the devil Crystabella, Yeah, Chris Stabella 1:21:00.640 --> 1:21:03.280 and pasta or whatever. 1:21:05.520 --> 1:21:13.080 Yeah, well, oh yeah, when you're here, your family at 1:21:13.080 --> 1:21:17.519 the the Devil's Garden, So that's kind of a separate thing. 1:21:17.600 --> 1:21:23.040 And then as Marianne is observing all of these sinful 1:21:23.120 --> 1:21:26.920 women and trying to confide in Kevin to be like, 1:21:27.760 --> 1:21:31.120 things are really weird, things are very wrong. I don't 1:21:31.240 --> 1:21:34.320 like our new lives. It feels like we're doing something 1:21:34.520 --> 1:21:37.360 wrong and I'm seeing demons and blah blah blah, and 1:21:37.680 --> 1:21:43.000 he is, you know, again, constantly dismissing her and gaslighting 1:21:43.000 --> 1:21:47.200 her and all of that. What I can't really figure 1:21:47.200 --> 1:21:49.280 out is if the again, if the movie wants us 1:21:49.320 --> 1:21:53.200 to empathize with her, or if it wants us to 1:21:53.479 --> 1:21:57.680 think that she's being hysterical and getting in the way 1:21:57.680 --> 1:22:01.479 of Kevin's success or a little bit of both. It 1:22:01.760 --> 1:22:04.719 almost feels to me like, yeah, we're supposed to empathize 1:22:04.720 --> 1:22:08.679 with her a bit, But also it felt as though, 1:22:08.680 --> 1:22:10.960 and I haven't read anything to this effect, so I 1:22:11.000 --> 1:22:13.160 can't confirm this, but it almost felt as though the 1:22:13.240 --> 1:22:17.160 director was like, Hey, really ramp up the hysterics here, 1:22:17.479 --> 1:22:23.520 Charlie's so that we feel like she's almost a foil 1:22:24.040 --> 1:22:28.040 to Kevin. Because there's that scene where she's she's in 1:22:28.080 --> 1:22:31.120 the church and she's crying and she's wrapped in a 1:22:31.160 --> 1:22:33.920 blanket and then she like throws it off of her 1:22:34.000 --> 1:22:38.679 and she's naked and crying and screaming. Yeah, And I'm like. 1:22:39.160 --> 1:22:42.200 What my like feeling on her is that like we 1:22:42.320 --> 1:22:44.400 are supposed to think she's telling the truth, because we 1:22:44.439 --> 1:22:46.760 are given every indication that she's telling the truth. Like 1:22:46.760 --> 1:22:49.480 if we thought we were supposed to not find her credible, 1:22:49.680 --> 1:22:53.760 we wouldn't see what she sees, right, And so like, 1:22:54.280 --> 1:22:56.840 I don't think that we're supposed to not believe her 1:22:56.960 --> 1:22:58.840 or I don't know. I guess I didn't see it 1:22:58.880 --> 1:23:01.040 as like we're not supposed to hear as a foil. 1:23:01.080 --> 1:23:02.840 It just felt like she was this kind of like 1:23:03.800 --> 1:23:07.479 stand in for virtue in a virtueless world. It's like 1:23:07.920 --> 1:23:11.519 her and the mom that they're like, I don't know, 1:23:11.600 --> 1:23:14.400 like they're the only virtuous way to live is to 1:23:14.479 --> 1:23:17.479 move back to Florida and go to church for like 1:23:17.560 --> 1:23:18.639 twenty hours a day. 1:23:18.920 --> 1:23:21.880 Right, and it quite your original profession that you were 1:23:21.920 --> 1:23:25.559 going to use to improve your family's financial situation and 1:23:26.000 --> 1:23:28.280 become a peanut farmer or whatever. 1:23:28.880 --> 1:23:30.920 Yeah, right, Yeah, I don't. 1:23:30.720 --> 1:23:33.720 Know if it's because we're also in the middle of 1:23:33.760 --> 1:23:37.720 prepping for an episode on Don't Worry Darling, which is 1:23:37.880 --> 1:23:39.880 also a movie about and. 1:23:39.840 --> 1:23:42.360 Also very Rosemary's Baby coated. 1:23:42.520 --> 1:23:47.000 Oh yeah, for sure, but similar to Devil's Advocate. Don't 1:23:47.000 --> 1:23:51.080 Worry Darling is a movie about a woman who starts 1:23:51.120 --> 1:23:54.360 to suspect something is very wrong with her husband's job 1:23:54.560 --> 1:23:57.360 and her husband's boss, and she tries to speak up 1:23:57.400 --> 1:23:59.720 about it. But that movie. Not to say that that 1:23:59.760 --> 1:24:02.840 movie is like awesome and perfect or anything like that, 1:24:03.280 --> 1:24:06.000 but at least it's told from the woman's point of view. 1:24:06.680 --> 1:24:10.280 So mag Fenf's eighty percent of Don't Worry Darling was 1:24:10.320 --> 1:24:12.840 from the perspective of Harry Styles, I would not have 1:24:12.920 --> 1:24:14.040 made it right. 1:24:14.760 --> 1:24:17.040 But I guess my point is, I just it felt 1:24:17.040 --> 1:24:21.360 to me like we are supposed to empathize and or 1:24:22.240 --> 1:24:28.360 pity the Marian character. But also I feel like the 1:24:28.400 --> 1:24:33.080 movie is reveling in and exploiting the idea of a 1:24:33.120 --> 1:24:38.160 woman's hysteria, for sure, And that's part of the the 1:24:38.280 --> 1:24:43.200 like spookiness of this movie and the tension of this movie. 1:24:43.080 --> 1:24:45.920 When it feels very down in Betty Draper, you know, 1:24:45.960 --> 1:24:49.080 and it feels like kind of that also, like to 1:24:49.120 --> 1:24:52.080 the extent that there is a coherent theme happening. And 1:24:52.240 --> 1:24:55.760 I may be too generous and seeing this in it, 1:24:55.800 --> 1:24:59.720 but it feels like it's you know, kind of you 1:24:59.800 --> 1:25:02.559 can I feel the echoes at least of media about 1:25:02.600 --> 1:25:05.559 the kind of long lineage of men who have signed 1:25:05.600 --> 1:25:11.200 on to value their relationships with scary mentoring men at 1:25:11.240 --> 1:25:16.519 work over what it's doing to their families, and the 1:25:16.640 --> 1:25:20.120 kind of like I don't know, parable of the New 1:25:20.200 --> 1:25:21.519 York professional class. 1:25:22.520 --> 1:25:26.439 Yeah that's true. Yeah, I've like, I don't know, it's 1:25:26.439 --> 1:25:29.080 so incoherent that it's hard Like I feel like she 1:25:29.280 --> 1:25:33.760 is I mean, ultimately, she is defined and happening in 1:25:33.800 --> 1:25:39.040 reaction to his narrative, right, So it's it's weird because 1:25:39.040 --> 1:25:41.400 there are like technically a lot of scenes that we 1:25:41.400 --> 1:25:46.200 see from her point of view, but it's never like, 1:25:46.600 --> 1:25:49.080 I mean, her whole story is happening in reaction to 1:25:49.120 --> 1:25:53.120 his by design, And so it's like, I don't know 1:25:53.200 --> 1:25:55.640 it's true, and I feel bad because it's like Shirley's 1:25:55.800 --> 1:26:01.200 is doing her best with what she's given, but it's 1:26:01.640 --> 1:26:03.559 but it's again, it's like it almost felt like a 1:26:03.600 --> 1:26:05.760 fake out that they gave her women to talk to, 1:26:05.960 --> 1:26:10.280 but like actually they didn't. Yeah, and so I don't know, 1:26:10.320 --> 1:26:14.840 like there's a cooler version of that character who it's 1:26:14.880 --> 1:26:16.760 like in the same way that you see Keiani's character 1:26:16.880 --> 1:26:20.559 get more and more depraved, even though he also starts 1:26:20.640 --> 1:26:22.479 that way, So you're like, what is the progression here? 1:26:23.920 --> 1:26:28.200 Like you also see her become more and more like 1:26:28.400 --> 1:26:31.920 helpless in a way that I don't know what they're 1:26:31.960 --> 1:26:33.040 trying to say. 1:26:33.000 --> 1:26:36.480 And like really quickly in kind of a Victorian femininity 1:26:36.520 --> 1:26:38.800 approach where it's like, you know, most women are four 1:26:38.880 --> 1:26:42.000 or five bad dreams away from snapping, and it's like 1:26:42.400 --> 1:26:47.600 we mental health science has come really quite far in 1:26:47.640 --> 1:26:49.719 the past one hundred years, not as far as it could, 1:26:49.760 --> 1:26:50.760 but you know, or. 1:26:50.880 --> 1:26:53.479 Like you're saying, Kaitlin like the hysteric woman trope, where 1:26:53.880 --> 1:26:57.439 like it's just it's so like inconsistent and weird because 1:26:57.439 --> 1:27:00.880 I did, like, you know whatever, I didn't like like 1:27:00.960 --> 1:27:04.719 her character like wow, so compelling, but but like going 1:27:04.760 --> 1:27:08.320 back to like the beginning where there is a clear 1:27:08.720 --> 1:27:11.800 element of like how she feels about stuff and like 1:27:12.160 --> 1:27:15.680 she feels out of place, and like that is interesting, 1:27:15.760 --> 1:27:17.559 Like she's a total fish out of water, and we 1:27:17.640 --> 1:27:23.320 know why you can almost understand like why she ends 1:27:23.400 --> 1:27:26.320 up like being kind of charmed by the al Pacino character, 1:27:26.360 --> 1:27:27.960 because first of all, he's the devil that's kind of 1:27:27.960 --> 1:27:32.400 his trademark, but also that like she specifically tells Kevin 1:27:32.840 --> 1:27:35.720 going into the party, please don't leave me alone and uncomfortable. 1:27:35.800 --> 1:27:38.120 He leaves her alone immediately, and we do see that 1:27:38.160 --> 1:27:41.120 bear through. She has an Alexander Petrowski well it's like 1:27:41.160 --> 1:27:43.080 and she's super mad at him. Afterwards, she makes him 1:27:43.080 --> 1:27:45.400 sleep on the couch and she ends up talking with 1:27:45.439 --> 1:27:47.519 al Pacino, who is like the only person at the 1:27:47.520 --> 1:27:50.759 party who isn't making her uncomfortable and it's like, that's 1:27:50.800 --> 1:27:54.160 wild because if he's doing she'll be making her so uncomfortable. Well, 1:27:54.160 --> 1:27:54.839 because he's. 1:27:54.760 --> 1:27:58.720 Like, your hair like shit. He's like nagging her, your 1:27:58.760 --> 1:28:03.040 hair looks like shit. But he's like doing it sensually, 1:28:03.280 --> 1:28:05.560 question mark, And I guess she's. 1:28:05.320 --> 1:28:07.320 Like just doing the devil thing. 1:28:07.720 --> 1:28:10.600 And like heures how annoying lawyers are at parties. You 1:28:10.640 --> 1:28:13.120 know that if the devil starts snagging you, you're like, oh, 1:28:13.160 --> 1:28:13.919 thank god. 1:28:14.360 --> 1:28:19.760 Right, You're like, this is the most tolerable person here. Yeah, 1:28:19.840 --> 1:28:24.040 I don't know, Like I Marianne, I think is an 1:28:24.120 --> 1:28:27.600 interesting character, which is like what makes it such a 1:28:27.640 --> 1:28:30.840 shame that they sort of reduce her to this very 1:28:31.000 --> 1:28:35.200 tropy thing, for sure, and the end that the fact that, 1:28:35.200 --> 1:28:39.720 and it's like I appreciate that whatever. It's like, when 1:28:39.720 --> 1:28:41.479 are we going to have kids? Are we going to 1:28:41.560 --> 1:28:43.600 have kids? Is a big narrative in a lot of 1:28:43.600 --> 1:28:47.040 people's marriage, but it also feels very like trite to 1:28:47.120 --> 1:28:48.960 be like, and all she wants to do is have 1:28:49.000 --> 1:28:51.360 a baby, But don't worry. It's the nineties and we 1:28:51.400 --> 1:28:53.480 know that we have to do a little bit of feminism. 1:28:53.560 --> 1:28:56.840 So she used to have a job and she misses it, 1:28:57.280 --> 1:29:02.000 so you're like, cool, it does feel yeah, Calen. 1:29:02.000 --> 1:29:03.680 The more I think about it, it feels like the kind 1:29:03.680 --> 1:29:07.120 of Victorian hysterical woman where she also is like the 1:29:07.160 --> 1:29:10.400 implication is kind of that she's becoming mentally ill because 1:29:10.400 --> 1:29:13.280 of all the evil around her. Oh yeah, you know, 1:29:13.560 --> 1:29:16.280 and this idea of like the Victorian woman as like 1:29:16.560 --> 1:29:21.120 both weaker and more virtuous than men, and therefore, like, 1:29:21.760 --> 1:29:24.080 you know, if you're doing something, if you work for 1:29:24.160 --> 1:29:27.400 the devil, your wife's gonna get sick, right. 1:29:27.439 --> 1:29:33.000 Well. Then it's also if I was observing something that 1:29:33.120 --> 1:29:35.800 I thought was wrong or that seemed evil, and I 1:29:35.880 --> 1:29:38.040 was trying to tell my partner about it, and he 1:29:38.160 --> 1:29:41.760 was constantly dismissing me, it, ignoring me and gaslighting me, 1:29:42.280 --> 1:29:46.000 I would grow increasingly frustrated, and I would also start 1:29:46.760 --> 1:29:50.200 yelling and screaming and crying. Yeah, and so her behavior 1:29:50.320 --> 1:29:54.640 is not unjustified. It's just that the movie is like, 1:29:54.920 --> 1:30:00.200 and oh, but she she's so But I don't even 1:30:00.240 --> 1:30:01.439 know what the movie is trying to say. 1:30:01.479 --> 1:30:02.920 I don't know because it's like that I don't think 1:30:03.040 --> 1:30:06.120 like the movie like the movie can't have it's trying 1:30:06.120 --> 1:30:08.639 to have it always too because they're also styling her 1:30:08.720 --> 1:30:10.719 like a woman who's gone mad, where it like looks 1:30:10.720 --> 1:30:14.000 like she's two black eyes from crying at all times 1:30:14.040 --> 1:30:16.080 and shit like that, and like right. 1:30:15.880 --> 1:30:19.760 But we also know what she's saying is true, right, 1:30:20.280 --> 1:30:23.240 and that these are like correct visions. There aren't visions exactly, 1:30:23.280 --> 1:30:26.880 they're like she's seeing correctly what's going on. But then 1:30:26.920 --> 1:30:31.080 she paints their apartment to look like a global village cafe, 1:30:31.960 --> 1:30:33.559 so that implies that she's losing it. 1:30:33.960 --> 1:30:37.560 She has she has virtue vision, I think is like ultimately, 1:30:37.680 --> 1:30:40.640 she's she has virtuous goggles on in all times, and 1:30:40.720 --> 1:30:45.439 Keanu does not have virtuous goggles on, and it kills 1:30:45.560 --> 1:30:48.479 her question mark like, yeah, I don't, I don't know. 1:30:48.680 --> 1:30:52.880 I wish that she had gone home with his mother. 1:30:53.280 --> 1:30:56.000 That would be nice, That's what I wish it had happened. Yeah, 1:30:56.040 --> 1:30:58.439 And that's a nice performance from Ju to th Ivy 1:30:59.640 --> 1:31:03.120 as his tent revival type mom. I feel like, ultimately 1:31:03.120 --> 1:31:05.720 the only character who this movie really cares about is 1:31:05.720 --> 1:31:10.840 the devil, and yeah, that's you know, it's a fun devil. 1:31:10.920 --> 1:31:12.040 They did get with the devil. 1:31:12.760 --> 1:31:15.160 I do think, yeah, use that would be a fun 1:31:15.680 --> 1:31:18.560 I don't know enough. Do you have a favorite portrayal 1:31:18.600 --> 1:31:21.760 of the devil? Sarah as kind of a devilhead yourself, 1:31:22.280 --> 1:31:24.839 So yeah, I put this in the series. 1:31:25.840 --> 1:31:28.920 One of my all time favorite devil portrayals is a 1:31:28.960 --> 1:31:31.839 Saturday Night Live sketch that's a parody of the People's 1:31:31.840 --> 1:31:35.519 Court where John Lovett's is the devil and he's trying 1:31:35.560 --> 1:31:39.600 to get damages from the plaintiffs. 1:31:39.600 --> 1:31:40.400 I are. 1:31:41.680 --> 1:31:43.760 One of them is Rosanna Arcat, who must have been 1:31:43.840 --> 1:31:47.800 hosting that week because she sold her soul in exchange 1:31:48.000 --> 1:31:53.479 for like three professional hairdryers and stuff, and so it's 1:31:53.520 --> 1:31:56.519 the devil trying to get the People's Court to side 1:31:56.520 --> 1:31:59.879 with him for like, you know, the three thousand dollars 1:32:00.040 --> 1:32:03.000 that he invested in her hair business and exchanged for 1:32:03.040 --> 1:32:05.360 her soul that she then wasn't able to make work. 1:32:06.080 --> 1:32:08.400 And I feel like that's it, Like it feels like, 1:32:09.000 --> 1:32:13.479 you know, the devil. I really like depictions where you 1:32:13.600 --> 1:32:17.080 have kind of like a funny, low stakes devil who's 1:32:17.360 --> 1:32:20.360 having a hard time on daytime TV, because I feel like, 1:32:21.080 --> 1:32:24.559 in actual execution, it all seems a bit low rent. 1:32:24.880 --> 1:32:27.240 You know that you have to like go soul by 1:32:27.360 --> 1:32:32.280 soul trying to get people to sign bad contracts, and 1:32:33.640 --> 1:32:36.200 of course the association of the devil with contract laws 1:32:36.280 --> 1:32:38.920 relatively modern, but I mean I really like that we've 1:32:38.960 --> 1:32:41.880 taken it and like, you know that the devil and 1:32:41.960 --> 1:32:44.840 lawyers do go together and it's about you know, being 1:32:44.840 --> 1:32:47.519 pressured into signing a bad contract and a lot of 1:32:47.280 --> 1:32:50.000 our modern depictions. I also like, I saw a bit 1:32:50.040 --> 1:32:52.479 dazzled at a young age, and we'll always have a 1:32:52.479 --> 1:32:55.040 soft spot for that one. For the Elizabeth Hurley Devil. 1:32:55.439 --> 1:32:58.320 Yeah, I'm a fan of the Elizabeth Hurley Devil. I 1:32:58.360 --> 1:33:02.120 mean just one styling alone, exactly. Yeah, So I feel like, 1:33:02.160 --> 1:33:05.040 I like, I always love a comedy devil. And then 1:33:05.080 --> 1:33:09.280 if I'm watching a horror movie where it's like, actually 1:33:09.360 --> 1:33:14.080 the villain is the devil, I'm like, whatever, you know, 1:33:14.400 --> 1:33:17.639 because I feel like the things that like I saw 1:33:17.800 --> 1:33:20.559 I was watching I don't know, like some TikTok about 1:33:20.560 --> 1:33:23.920 Hereditary the other day where I saw a position I like, 1:33:24.080 --> 1:33:27.680 surprisingly don't see people state that often, but which I 1:33:27.760 --> 1:33:30.639 really agree with where somebody was like, you know, if 1:33:30.640 --> 1:33:34.479 only they hadn't had spoilers for Hereditary, if only they 1:33:34.520 --> 1:33:38.400 hadn't had the whole like Satan worshiping aspect uncovered in 1:33:38.439 --> 1:33:42.200 Hereditary because like, yeah, we thought that as well, right, 1:33:42.320 --> 1:33:45.639 because like the extreme bleakness of just the interpersonal stuff 1:33:46.200 --> 1:33:48.719 and the depiction of like a family being really horrible 1:33:48.760 --> 1:33:51.799 to each other while grieving is so scary. 1:33:51.960 --> 1:33:55.400 And then you bring in the devil and you're like, ugh, whatever, 1:33:55.920 --> 1:33:57.000 you know's a cop out. 1:33:57.120 --> 1:33:58.760 The Devil's usually a cop out. 1:33:58.880 --> 1:34:01.639 I feel like, yeah, I feel like the devil usually 1:34:01.680 --> 1:34:04.839 makes things less scary. So I love a good comedy devil. 1:34:04.960 --> 1:34:07.240 I mean, I think Flanders as the Devil, and tree 1:34:07.280 --> 1:34:11.200 House of Horror is also pretty iconic. Do either of 1:34:11.240 --> 1:34:13.400 you have favorite devil depictions? 1:34:15.760 --> 1:34:16.559 I'd have to know. 1:34:16.680 --> 1:34:19.879 I didn't. I feel like I didn't see the Dazzled 1:34:19.920 --> 1:34:23.080 until I watch it for this show. I don't know. 1:34:23.160 --> 1:34:25.920 I think the only devil depiction, oh, you know what, 1:34:26.360 --> 1:34:28.720 the Cow and Chicken devil, the little cartoon devil that 1:34:28.760 --> 1:34:29.719 bounces on his own. 1:34:29.760 --> 1:34:33.000 But I don't think I remember I remember cowing Chicken. 1:34:33.040 --> 1:34:35.400 I don't remember that devil. I got to check that out. 1:34:35.600 --> 1:34:38.000 They had a devil. Yeah, the cartoon network devil is 1:34:38.040 --> 1:34:42.000 probably my favorite devil. But there you go. But enough 1:34:42.040 --> 1:34:46.919 about the devil. Let's talk about how race is depicted 1:34:46.960 --> 1:34:50.120 in this movie. Oh yeah, it was the nineties, so 1:34:50.280 --> 1:34:53.280 you know, I'm sure they did a good job. This 1:34:53.360 --> 1:34:57.240 is a movie that has non white characters. It is 1:34:57.280 --> 1:35:01.200 again like an overwhelmingly white view of New York, but 1:35:01.360 --> 1:35:04.679 the non white characters who we see are overwhelmingly these 1:35:04.880 --> 1:35:12.559 broad racist stereotypes. I think really with the exception of 1:35:13.120 --> 1:35:17.360 the two wealthy black characters Jackie and Lee lu. 1:35:19.120 --> 1:35:22.599 And they've they've been corrupted by greed. 1:35:22.960 --> 1:35:26.400 They're actually al Pacino or something. So it's like, but 1:35:26.479 --> 1:35:30.840 even they are like severely underwritten, you know, in comparison 1:35:30.880 --> 1:35:33.640 to the other characters in this world. I mean, I 1:35:33.680 --> 1:35:38.080 guess Jackie is sort of like the only quote unquote 1:35:38.160 --> 1:35:44.360 friend at any point to Maryanne. But again, she's whatever 1:35:44.520 --> 1:35:48.120 they're to either be like I'm gonna teach you how 1:35:48.200 --> 1:35:52.400 to be a society wife, or like its just everything 1:35:52.400 --> 1:35:55.519 she does is in reaction to Maryanne or al Pacino, 1:35:55.640 --> 1:35:58.519 Like she doesn't really exist independently. And then they make 1:35:58.560 --> 1:36:01.599 that canon, which is a choice, right. 1:36:01.680 --> 1:36:06.080 And then with her husband Lehman, he's barely a character, 1:36:06.280 --> 1:36:11.840 but he he's the guy who approaches Keanu in Florida 1:36:11.920 --> 1:36:15.880 to be like, hey, come up to Yeah, he says something. 1:36:16.280 --> 1:36:20.240 He thinks that he's being pranked. He's like, oh hah, 1:36:20.320 --> 1:36:23.120 I can put you up to this. You being black 1:36:23.520 --> 1:36:26.800 is a part of the Joe right, And I'm like, 1:36:26.880 --> 1:36:28.439 what are you talking about? 1:36:28.680 --> 1:36:30.760 Like what was going on in Florida law firms in 1:36:30.840 --> 1:36:31.840 nineteen ninety seven. 1:36:32.600 --> 1:36:34.240 I mean, I was like, I guess that that is 1:36:34.320 --> 1:36:36.840 a realistic depiction of a random white guy at a 1:36:36.880 --> 1:36:40.080 bar in Florida. Is that he's true weird and racist, 1:36:40.400 --> 1:36:42.840 But like, yeah, that so there's like a lot of 1:36:42.960 --> 1:36:47.040 offhand comments about that most black and brown characters appear 1:36:47.360 --> 1:36:50.679 as antagonists or just like, I mean, I'm thinking about 1:36:50.680 --> 1:36:53.000 the guys on the train are portrayed in this very 1:36:53.000 --> 1:36:57.599 stereotypical way. One of the two unhoused people who kills 1:36:57.720 --> 1:37:01.439 Jeffrey Jones is a black cacharacter that I didn't even 1:37:01.439 --> 1:37:04.600 want to like rehash the specific stereotypes there, because you 1:37:04.720 --> 1:37:08.880 know what they are. But it's just like, yeah, it 1:37:08.960 --> 1:37:13.439 is very nineties in its portrayal of race. The Delroy 1:37:13.479 --> 1:37:14.320 Lindo character. 1:37:15.040 --> 1:37:19.000 Yes, so I think you were alluding to this toward 1:37:19.000 --> 1:37:23.040 the top of the episode, Sarah, But the question of 1:37:24.520 --> 1:37:29.559 because Kevin defends his character in court saying that he 1:37:29.720 --> 1:37:32.800 was simply carrying out a religious practice, which he has 1:37:32.840 --> 1:37:34.920 the constitutional right to do. 1:37:34.920 --> 1:37:36.480 At darn constitution. 1:37:38.680 --> 1:37:41.600 But he's making the argument like we might think that 1:37:41.880 --> 1:37:47.040 killing a goat at home is weird in our Western 1:37:47.200 --> 1:37:51.240 Christian world, but is it any weirder than eating veal 1:37:51.640 --> 1:37:56.639 or getting circumcised or other cultural practices that we deemed 1:37:56.720 --> 1:37:59.680 to be normal. And it's like, yeah, fair point. But 1:38:00.200 --> 1:38:02.639 it feels like the movie is presenting all of this 1:38:02.760 --> 1:38:06.720 as like we are still supposed to think that Filipe 1:38:06.720 --> 1:38:10.880 Moyees is like weird and what he's doing is really 1:38:10.880 --> 1:38:11.559 fucked up. 1:38:11.439 --> 1:38:14.160 Because he had to hire the devil to defend him, 1:38:14.280 --> 1:38:16.120 like that tells you everything you need to know about it. 1:38:16.120 --> 1:38:18.519 And he's got too many candles, like he's either shooting 1:38:18.600 --> 1:38:22.000 a Celine Dion music video or he's worshiping the devil. 1:38:22.040 --> 1:38:23.639 As the implication I feel like. 1:38:24.000 --> 1:38:28.000 And now, if Joel Schumacher had been staging the Candle set, 1:38:28.160 --> 1:38:30.080 Oh Boy, based on what we know about his Phantom 1:38:30.120 --> 1:38:33.120 of the Opera sets, it would have just it felt 1:38:33.160 --> 1:38:35.680 a little slap dash. There's a better director to have 1:38:35.720 --> 1:38:37.080 a room full of candles. 1:38:37.320 --> 1:38:41.160 Yeah, so that felt all over the place and racist 1:38:41.200 --> 1:38:43.960 in the way that that character is portrayed. 1:38:44.160 --> 1:38:46.920 And the idea is that right that, like Hannah Reeves 1:38:46.960 --> 1:38:51.280 is making sort of a classic nineties liberal argument of 1:38:51.320 --> 1:38:55.120 like multiculturalism is good and it's like too much culture 1:38:55.200 --> 1:38:56.040 equals devil. 1:38:57.439 --> 1:38:57.639 Right. 1:38:57.960 --> 1:38:59.840 I think Law and Order was also pointing out a 1:39:00.160 --> 1:39:02.519 time it's like, don't be too tolerant. You could be 1:39:02.640 --> 1:39:04.000 tolerating the devil. 1:39:04.120 --> 1:39:04.479 Devil. 1:39:05.760 --> 1:39:09.519 Yes, so that's a mess. 1:39:10.320 --> 1:39:12.919 He's just a mess. This movie's just a weird mess, 1:39:13.000 --> 1:39:15.840 like mess see and yet weirdly well executed. 1:39:15.920 --> 1:39:18.680 Like the art design is fantastic, it looks great, it 1:39:18.680 --> 1:39:21.439 looks the editing I think is done very well. And 1:39:21.479 --> 1:39:23.639 then in terms of theme, you're like, what. 1:39:24.200 --> 1:39:26.599 You have to imagine that they were editing around a lot. 1:39:28.160 --> 1:39:30.920 But including al Pacino speaking Spanish sort of. 1:39:32.880 --> 1:39:36.320 But the just a little more about the production. I mean, 1:39:36.680 --> 1:39:39.800 we've talked about a lot of it. Some of it's 1:39:39.920 --> 1:39:44.559 just funny, which is that al Pacino hated Taylor Hackford, 1:39:44.640 --> 1:39:47.760 the director, and would always show up late and was like, 1:39:47.800 --> 1:39:50.160 I hate this guy. He allegedly did not like Keanu 1:39:50.200 --> 1:39:52.080 and thought Keanu was doing a bad job, which is 1:39:52.160 --> 1:39:54.280 mean to say, but is it incorrect to say we 1:39:54.280 --> 1:39:59.040 don't know? Oh, and that speaking to your earlier points, 1:39:59.040 --> 1:40:03.200 Sarah that this movie was sort of languishing in production 1:40:03.280 --> 1:40:05.080 for a while, but then got a real shot to 1:40:05.120 --> 1:40:08.639 the arm when the O. J. Simpson case happened. They 1:40:08.640 --> 1:40:11.160 were like, oh, this is now's the time to do this, 1:40:11.240 --> 1:40:11.880 and now we've got. 1:40:11.800 --> 1:40:13.799 A green light, these evil lawyer movie. 1:40:14.200 --> 1:40:14.639 Yeah. 1:40:14.720 --> 1:40:17.720 Yeah, you might even say this movie was in development. 1:40:18.439 --> 1:40:24.120 Hell, that's where the Devil lives. Albacina's keeping the movie 1:40:24.160 --> 1:40:28.160 inside of the inside of his room two ears, big 1:40:28.240 --> 1:40:32.640 fuck rough that he lives in everywhere. 1:40:32.680 --> 1:40:37.200 So it's like, you don't ever want to just lie down, really, 1:40:37.280 --> 1:40:39.000 even if you don't, even if you don't. 1:40:38.800 --> 1:40:41.040 Need to sleep, it's nice to lie down. 1:40:41.080 --> 1:40:42.360 It's so nice to lie down. 1:40:42.400 --> 1:40:43.519 It's my favorite thing to do. 1:40:43.920 --> 1:40:46.000 Colin, you don't want to lie down? The Devil doesn't 1:40:46.040 --> 1:40:51.400 need floor time? Am I really to believe that? But yeah, 1:40:51.439 --> 1:40:54.000 I'm like I think that. That's Oh. The last thing 1:40:54.000 --> 1:40:56.559 I wanted to say was about Pam, uh. 1:40:56.800 --> 1:40:59.400 Because I left her out of the recap altogether because 1:40:59.400 --> 1:41:02.599 I was like, who who even is Pam? But Louise, 1:41:02.840 --> 1:41:03.599 please continue. 1:41:04.360 --> 1:41:08.080 I like Pam. Also, Pam is played by an actor 1:41:08.120 --> 1:41:09.560 named Deborah Monk, who had never heard of but she 1:41:09.600 --> 1:41:11.120 has a tony and emmy. 1:41:10.920 --> 1:41:13.679 So wow, she's halfway to egotting. 1:41:13.800 --> 1:41:15.880 Now that you know Deborah Monk's face, you're going to 1:41:15.920 --> 1:41:19.240 see her in everything. I feel like she's kind of 1:41:19.240 --> 1:41:20.639 the cherry of this firm. 1:41:20.800 --> 1:41:26.599 Perhaps I whatever the character is random, but I did 1:41:26.640 --> 1:41:29.599 feel like it just brought up another nineties Ish trope 1:41:29.600 --> 1:41:31.439 where there's two women that work at this law firm. 1:41:31.800 --> 1:41:34.439 One is the daughter of the devil. We know that 1:41:34.520 --> 1:41:37.400 she is multilingual, but we don't really know what she 1:41:37.600 --> 1:41:40.559 does because she's there to be hot, which is not 1:41:41.240 --> 1:41:43.280 saying anything about the actor as saying that's how this 1:41:43.360 --> 1:41:47.599 part was written for Connie Nielsen. But Pam is allowed 1:41:47.640 --> 1:41:49.719 to just be good at her job, and I think 1:41:49.760 --> 1:41:52.240 the reason that is is because she is in her 1:41:52.280 --> 1:41:56.840 forties and is not rail Finn, which is the like 1:41:56.880 --> 1:41:57.439 in the nineties. 1:41:57.479 --> 1:41:59.160 I think you're allowed to be good at your job 1:41:59.200 --> 1:42:02.559 as a woman and actually depicted doing it occasionally if 1:42:02.560 --> 1:42:05.400 you're like menopausal and are wearing a top with big 1:42:05.439 --> 1:42:07.200 buttons on it. 1:42:07.000 --> 1:42:10.160 Right, I mean, well, it's just like the another example 1:42:10.200 --> 1:42:12.720 of like you just can't win no matter who you are. 1:42:12.760 --> 1:42:15.559 Of like, sure if we are if we are telling 1:42:15.600 --> 1:42:18.680 you that this character is not sexually desirable, then we 1:42:18.760 --> 1:42:21.400 will be okay with her being just canonically good at 1:42:21.400 --> 1:42:23.599 her job. You're like, now, what the fuck? 1:42:23.960 --> 1:42:24.559 What the fuck? 1:42:24.760 --> 1:42:26.640 I guess she's on The Gilded Age, which is a 1:42:26.640 --> 1:42:28.840 show that I watch, So there you go. 1:42:29.400 --> 1:42:31.760 Yeah, anyways, I cap meaning to watch that. I like 1:42:31.840 --> 1:42:34.719 to see Cynthia Nixon do something else. 1:42:35.320 --> 1:42:38.799 You'd love, you'd love the damn Gilded Age. But my mom, 1:42:38.920 --> 1:42:41.600 I love a big over the top house. It's a 1:42:41.640 --> 1:42:43.400 show to watch with your mom. It's good. 1:42:43.720 --> 1:42:45.559 Is Christine Baranski in it? Or remind me? 1:42:45.680 --> 1:42:49.360 Yeah? Yeah, she and Cynthia Nix and our sisters, which genius, 1:42:49.400 --> 1:42:51.120 oh genius casting. Yeah. 1:42:51.520 --> 1:42:53.559 I do think my mom would get bored very quickly 1:42:53.560 --> 1:42:56.360 if there's not like one murder per episode, because she's 1:42:56.520 --> 1:42:59.679 very like that's what she expects out of TV. 1:43:00.160 --> 1:43:00.519 Point. 1:43:01.120 --> 1:43:03.719 But you know, we can always I can always edit something, 1:43:03.760 --> 1:43:04.559 and you could. 1:43:04.400 --> 1:43:07.439 Just edit a random murder into everything, yeah, and then 1:43:07.439 --> 1:43:09.599 I'll be like, there you go, someone's dead. 1:43:09.880 --> 1:43:12.320 I just feel like I cut from unsolved mysteries, and 1:43:12.360 --> 1:43:14.679 then I'll be like, Okay, this is all about the murder. 1:43:15.000 --> 1:43:17.480 It may not be clear right now, but they're investigating 1:43:17.520 --> 1:43:21.240 the murder by having sex in this nice bed but 1:43:21.360 --> 1:43:22.360 can't to que and cover. 1:43:22.560 --> 1:43:24.120 I really liked the story. 1:43:23.800 --> 1:43:27.040 That they got in legal trouble with like this sort 1:43:27.040 --> 1:43:32.760 of statue, the big like art piece behind al Pacino's 1:43:32.800 --> 1:43:35.840 desk in his big Devil office because an artist who 1:43:35.840 --> 1:43:39.000 had made a very similar sculpture sued and they were 1:43:39.040 --> 1:43:42.080 gonna maybe not be able to release it on time 1:43:42.200 --> 1:43:44.080 for home video if they and so they had to 1:43:44.120 --> 1:43:47.479 like go back and kind of incredibly at this point 1:43:47.520 --> 1:43:51.639 in time digitally alter the footage of this art piece 1:43:51.920 --> 1:43:56.080 so that it, whoa basically wasn't too similar to the 1:43:56.080 --> 1:43:59.439 the artist's previous piece, which apparently they were emulating pretty closely, 1:43:59.479 --> 1:44:02.200 and so we're only had like human figures trapped in 1:44:02.240 --> 1:44:05.920 this kind of mailstorm mailstrom, mailstrom, that's probably the word. 1:44:06.640 --> 1:44:10.640 So they like had to it's definitely not male storm, 1:44:11.320 --> 1:44:14.600 that would just be a lot of male and a cyclone. 1:44:14.960 --> 1:44:17.519 But so they had to smooth the human figures out 1:44:17.520 --> 1:44:20.839 of this piece until the kind of big final monologue 1:44:20.840 --> 1:44:23.040 scene when they're allowed to be there again. But it's 1:44:23.120 --> 1:44:25.400 I guess you think about the people who had to 1:44:25.400 --> 1:44:26.040 do that job. 1:44:26.160 --> 1:44:29.400 That's so funny to me because like, no matter which way, 1:44:29.680 --> 1:44:33.120 no matter what way you hack it, it looks like shit. 1:44:33.920 --> 1:44:38.240 Like yeah, so that also. Yeah, I also saw that 1:44:38.280 --> 1:44:42.400 they used Pacino's like Godfather Too face to digitally edit 1:44:42.479 --> 1:44:43.000 in for. 1:44:42.960 --> 1:44:46.519 When He's which no one will notice. 1:44:46.560 --> 1:44:49.120 That movie is only twenty years old at this time. 1:44:49.479 --> 1:44:51.679 That movie is an obscure little film. 1:44:51.800 --> 1:44:52.720 No one's ever seen that. 1:44:53.160 --> 1:44:55.519 Yeah, I think that was everything I had. This movie 1:44:55.600 --> 1:44:59.040 was very successful, but I do feel like, and let 1:44:59.080 --> 1:45:01.559 me know if I'm just if this is like an 1:45:01.560 --> 1:45:03.559 I've missed the boat thing. But I do think this 1:45:03.640 --> 1:45:05.840 movie has sort of been lost to time. It didn't 1:45:05.840 --> 1:45:07.040 really have staying power. 1:45:07.120 --> 1:45:09.000 I agree, right, It's one of those movies that did 1:45:09.000 --> 1:45:11.479 really well at the time, but like, who's ever like, 1:45:12.080 --> 1:45:15.120 come on, Sonny Boy or fourteen, time to watch The 1:45:15.160 --> 1:45:18.080 Devil's Advocate. You're gonna learn so much about life. 1:45:18.240 --> 1:45:20.960 Yeah, it could be fun, though this is this has 1:45:21.000 --> 1:45:23.400 been lost to time to the point where I barely 1:45:23.520 --> 1:45:24.960 knew what this movie was and I thought I. 1:45:25.080 --> 1:45:26.800 Thought it was completely differentime. I was thought it was 1:45:26.840 --> 1:45:30.160 Met Joe Black, and you thought it was The Devil's 1:45:30.680 --> 1:45:33.200 The Devil's own none of my business. 1:45:33.280 --> 1:45:37.600 This movie would play well in a double feature with 1:45:37.680 --> 1:45:40.080 The Devil Wears Prada, which is also about having a 1:45:40.080 --> 1:45:42.400 demanding boss and a partner who doesn't like it. 1:45:43.080 --> 1:45:44.519 Wow, and I would like to see that. 1:45:45.040 --> 1:45:45.840 Yeah. 1:45:45.880 --> 1:45:48.160 Does this movie pass the backdel test? I think if 1:45:48.160 --> 1:45:52.280 we're to believe that everyone in the cast is not 1:45:52.360 --> 1:45:53.479 secretly al Pacino. 1:45:53.800 --> 1:46:00.439 Yes, Yes, because Marion talks to women like Jackie and 1:46:00.920 --> 1:46:05.360 Pam and maybe a third woman. 1:46:05.040 --> 1:46:07.920 A mother in law reads the Bible to her, which 1:46:08.439 --> 1:46:10.520 says about stuff. 1:46:10.160 --> 1:46:11.519 Alice her mother in law. 1:46:11.640 --> 1:46:14.760 There is a random third woman who appears for just 1:46:14.800 --> 1:46:16.920 the one scene to be in her undoor and be like, 1:46:17.120 --> 1:46:19.640 sin is amazing. You're like, who the fuck are you? 1:46:20.240 --> 1:46:24.000 I'm pretty sure she's the wife of the Jeffrey Jones character. 1:46:24.760 --> 1:46:27.240 I think that's bomber for her in general. 1:46:27.720 --> 1:46:33.320 Yes, but yeah, they're talking about chardonnay and boobs. I 1:46:33.320 --> 1:46:37.880 mean what passes the more than two women talking about boobs. 1:46:38.360 --> 1:46:43.519 You ever talked with your girlies about boobies? At Yeah? 1:46:44.000 --> 1:46:46.200 I mean I have talked about boobies with my friends 1:46:46.200 --> 1:46:48.360 at the store. But there's so much more to me 1:46:48.439 --> 1:46:51.120 than that. I also talk about butts with my friends 1:46:51.120 --> 1:46:51.519 at the store. 1:46:51.640 --> 1:46:53.519 That is equally important those two things. 1:46:53.560 --> 1:46:59.439 That's seen as a documentary. Yeah, it does technically past 1:47:00.320 --> 1:47:02.840 against and I think it actually does credibly pass the 1:47:02.840 --> 1:47:05.920 Bechdel test. But with it i'm usual caveat. But as 1:47:05.920 --> 1:47:08.920 we've been saying for ten years now, that doesn't mean 1:47:08.960 --> 1:47:09.800 it's a feminist movie. 1:47:09.800 --> 1:47:13.080 So let's get to the actual metric, the metric that 1:47:13.200 --> 1:47:16.599 does mean shit, which is the Bechdel cast nipple scale, 1:47:16.640 --> 1:47:20.599 where we rate the movie zero to five nipples based 1:47:20.640 --> 1:47:25.759 on examining the movie through an intersectional feminist lens. And well, 1:47:26.320 --> 1:47:32.320 I think this is a half nipple shrug for reasons 1:47:32.360 --> 1:47:34.479 I can't even articulate. I don't even know why I 1:47:34.479 --> 1:47:37.840 would give it as many as one half nipple, but 1:47:38.840 --> 1:47:43.240 I guess because we like do cut back to Mary 1:47:43.240 --> 1:47:47.280 Anne pretty frequently and like check in with her and 1:47:47.320 --> 1:47:51.960 what she's going through, which is a very relatable experience 1:47:52.920 --> 1:47:59.040 for many women. So because a lot of women are 1:47:59.479 --> 1:48:04.280 married to men who maybe not literally work for the devil, 1:48:04.439 --> 1:48:08.879 but they're doing very evil work in their lives. 1:48:09.040 --> 1:48:11.280 So my friend's husband works at Meta. 1:48:11.640 --> 1:48:15.519 Oh yikes. So yeah, I'll give this a half nipple. 1:48:15.960 --> 1:48:19.600 And I guess i'll give it to Charlie's there, and 1:48:20.160 --> 1:48:23.160 I don't know, she's doing her best. She's doing her best. 1:48:23.240 --> 1:48:25.599 Yeah, I'm gonna I don't for some reason. I'm gonna 1:48:25.640 --> 1:48:29.519 give it one. I'm gonna give it one because and 1:48:29.560 --> 1:48:35.680 it's and I give the nipple to Fun conceptually. 1:48:37.240 --> 1:48:40.040 I love Fun and. 1:48:40.360 --> 1:48:44.360 This movie is it true? No, this movie is not feminist. 1:48:44.439 --> 1:48:49.560 It is it does poorly in terms of it mentions 1:48:49.720 --> 1:48:52.519 gender roles, and then proceeds to really do nothing with it, 1:48:52.600 --> 1:48:56.559 and then have the male protagonist who's the literal son 1:48:56.600 --> 1:49:00.839 of the devil maybe or maybe not, The ends with 1:49:01.200 --> 1:49:03.720 him experiencing no consequence. 1:49:03.880 --> 1:49:06.840 So don't worry. This is another story about a male 1:49:06.880 --> 1:49:09.680 redemption arc maybe but not. 1:49:09.840 --> 1:49:12.360 But they don't even bother to redeem him. He just 1:49:12.479 --> 1:49:14.639 I guess he shoots himself with that, like he gets 1:49:14.640 --> 1:49:17.920 to learn nothing, which is ideal. Yeah, so it is 1:49:17.960 --> 1:49:21.720 a very comfortable movie for bad men to watch. I 1:49:21.760 --> 1:49:24.720 don't know. The al Pacino performance is so funny to 1:49:24.800 --> 1:49:28.719 me everywhere. Yeah, okay, so I'm gonna give it one nipple. 1:49:28.800 --> 1:49:31.479 For some reason, I cannot be held accountable for this writing, 1:49:32.000 --> 1:49:35.400 and I'm gonna give it to the line read everywhere 1:49:36.280 --> 1:49:38.240 nice yepes Sarah. 1:49:38.240 --> 1:49:41.120 Well, I'm gonna give a nipple to the line read 1:49:41.280 --> 1:49:45.040 I'm a fan of Man, which I've always loved. 1:49:45.680 --> 1:49:46.080 I don't know. 1:49:46.120 --> 1:49:48.360 That last speech by the Devil like almost makes some 1:49:48.479 --> 1:49:51.639 good points, and then it's like, have sex with your sister, 1:49:51.680 --> 1:49:53.519 and you're like, all right, never mind, mind. 1:49:53.800 --> 1:49:56.880 It is wild that it lands there because he's just 1:49:56.920 --> 1:49:59.719 been talking for I know it's not actually twenty minutes, 1:49:59.800 --> 1:50:03.000 but at least ten minutes. He is like talking in 1:50:03.120 --> 1:50:05.479 circles and he's like, so, as I was saying have 1:50:05.520 --> 1:50:07.960 sex with your sister, You're like, how did we land there? 1:50:08.280 --> 1:50:10.000 How is that where that speech ends? 1:50:10.000 --> 1:50:12.679 At one point he stops and then starts again. 1:50:13.000 --> 1:50:17.080 Yeah, Like it's fantastic. It's sort of like my favorite 1:50:17.160 --> 1:50:20.479 kind of bad movie climax where it's just happening in 1:50:20.520 --> 1:50:23.479 a room but there's really not any actions and right, 1:50:23.880 --> 1:50:26.719 so he's just walking in a circle for like ten minutes. 1:50:26.880 --> 1:50:28.960 It is a big room, so he does have space 1:50:29.000 --> 1:50:31.519 for that. But he's the Yeah, he's the devil. He's 1:50:31.560 --> 1:50:33.760 got a big old room. I mean, if not for 1:50:33.800 --> 1:50:36.000 al Pacino, no one would have watched this thing. You know, 1:50:36.040 --> 1:50:39.200 imagine if they got like Gene Hackman, it would just 1:50:39.360 --> 1:50:41.120 it would have been a whole other deal. 1:50:41.439 --> 1:50:44.040 Yeah, it's true. I mean maybe it would have been okay, 1:50:44.200 --> 1:50:47.280 But like, would I have seen al Pacino as the devil? Like? 1:50:47.400 --> 1:50:50.519 That's it just makes sense that puts butts in seats. 1:50:50.560 --> 1:50:52.759 That's one hundred million dollars at the box office. 1:50:53.000 --> 1:50:54.760 Like, I kind of the thing is, I kind of 1:50:54.800 --> 1:50:57.080 do believe that he could be the devil, like and 1:50:57.120 --> 1:50:59.599 I do believe this depiction of the devil because he's 1:50:59.680 --> 1:51:04.879 like just fundamentally annoying, which I think is like biblically accurate. 1:51:05.800 --> 1:51:09.000 And I also I like, just not in a. 1:51:08.920 --> 1:51:12.519 Particularly well considered way, but from my heart, I want 1:51:12.560 --> 1:51:15.400 to give part of that nipple to Charlie's there and 1:51:15.479 --> 1:51:19.639 just for like be putting up sample wall treatments while 1:51:19.640 --> 1:51:23.439 she's got an entire fried piece of chicken in her 1:51:23.479 --> 1:51:26.400 mouth from Popeyes. I just think that's very iconic behavior, 1:51:26.439 --> 1:51:29.040 and it was inspiring to me in some obscure way. 1:51:29.800 --> 1:51:32.320 She's also putting what I think are some of the 1:51:32.439 --> 1:51:35.599 ugliest colors to paint on your wall. 1:51:35.760 --> 1:51:38.800 I know, that's like not even on design sense or 1:51:38.800 --> 1:51:41.040 whatever that horrifying show was. Were they doing that? 1:51:42.120 --> 1:51:45.760 One is like a Shrek green one that. 1:51:45.840 --> 1:51:50.519 Was my childhood bedroom color. I think I think ultimately 1:51:50.720 --> 1:51:53.479 I liked I was like, just let her make her 1:51:53.520 --> 1:51:58.120 apartment tacky. Come on, the tacky is awesome and fun. 1:51:58.600 --> 1:52:01.320 It really is the jab. But Jackie said no TACKI 1:52:01.840 --> 1:52:02.559 no tacky for. 1:52:02.600 --> 1:52:04.959 Jackie, no TALKI for Jackie. 1:52:04.960 --> 1:52:08.080 So Charlie's is just shit out of luck because Jackie 1:52:08.080 --> 1:52:11.720 said no tacky. We got it. Well, we gotta end. 1:52:11.760 --> 1:52:16.040 No episode, Sarah, where can we find the new show? 1:52:16.160 --> 1:52:17.759 When does it come out? Tell us everything? 1:52:18.160 --> 1:52:20.840 So the new show, it's an eight part mini series. 1:52:20.840 --> 1:52:21.679 It's called The Devil. 1:52:21.760 --> 1:52:22.000 You know. 1:52:22.360 --> 1:52:24.919 I think by the time you're hearing this, new episodes 1:52:24.960 --> 1:52:28.920 will already be coming out premieres or has premiered October twentieth. 1:52:29.320 --> 1:52:32.120 We're going to be putting episodes out through mid December. 1:52:32.160 --> 1:52:34.280 There are bonus episodes if you want to hear them, 1:52:34.439 --> 1:52:37.600 or we get more interviews for context, including getting to 1:52:37.640 --> 1:52:41.760 talk to a galer fan theory scholar. Wow, and so 1:52:41.800 --> 1:52:45.800 you can hear it wherever Fine Podcasts are distributed, and 1:52:45.920 --> 1:52:49.719 you can also catch the first episode on the feet 1:52:49.760 --> 1:52:53.400 of my own every two weeks show You're Wrong About, 1:52:53.479 --> 1:52:56.760 which is about misremembered history and Jamie, you and I 1:52:56.840 --> 1:53:01.439 have a bonus episode this very month of October when 1:53:01.479 --> 1:53:05.080 I'm talking to you about bimbos. 1:53:05.520 --> 1:53:07.559 Who would have thought? And I'm so happy to be 1:53:07.640 --> 1:53:10.080 putting that one out too. I love that you're too. 1:53:10.960 --> 1:53:13.400 I mean, you have many areas of expertise, but in 1:53:13.439 --> 1:53:17.360 the easily the top five are bimbos and the Devil. 1:53:18.040 --> 1:53:20.760 But really, yeah, because what do we hate? What's more 1:53:20.800 --> 1:53:23.559 evil than like the Prince of Darkness? It's a woman 1:53:23.640 --> 1:53:25.640 who wears a lip color that we don't like. 1:53:26.320 --> 1:53:29.160 It's true, and that's why the Elizabeth Hurley performance of 1:53:29.200 --> 1:53:31.839 the Devil is the definitive one. Oh my god, listeners, 1:53:31.880 --> 1:53:34.760 thank you for joining us for this episode that's not 1:53:34.920 --> 1:53:37.479 quite as long as the Devil's Advocate, but closer than 1:53:37.520 --> 1:53:40.640 you think. Please illegally pirate this movie. Don't give them 1:53:40.640 --> 1:53:42.840 any money, but like it is a fun movie to 1:53:42.880 --> 1:53:43.639 watch with friends. 1:53:43.800 --> 1:53:46.439 Yeah, the Devil wants you to steal, so do it. 1:53:46.479 --> 1:53:49.360 The Devil loves when you use one, two, three movies 1:53:49.360 --> 1:53:52.720 dot ru and it breaks your computer. I like doing that. 1:53:52.760 --> 1:53:55.599 I was like, I think it has reduced the whatever 1:53:55.640 --> 1:53:59.280 we're bringing back pirrating. And you can follow us in 1:53:59.280 --> 1:54:03.280 all the normal places, that being mainly Instagram, And you 1:54:03.360 --> 1:54:07.840 can join our Patreon aka Matreon, where every month we 1:54:07.960 --> 1:54:10.720 do two original episodes on a theme of ours or 1:54:10.760 --> 1:54:15.120 you are choosing always something weird like Lawyer Bewery, question Mark. 1:54:15.120 --> 1:54:17.840 If you want that, maybe five bucks a month gets 1:54:17.880 --> 1:54:21.120 you that and access to our hundreds of episodes in 1:54:21.120 --> 1:54:21.839 our back catalog. 1:54:22.200 --> 1:54:30.120 Indeed, and with that, shall we go shopping and undress 1:54:30.200 --> 1:54:32.879 in the middle of the store while we're drinking chardonay 1:54:32.880 --> 1:54:34.240 and touch each other's boobs. 1:54:34.280 --> 1:54:36.680 Sure, but I might secretly be out, but you know, 1:54:37.960 --> 1:54:41.480 I hope you are. That's a king for some people, 1:54:42.520 --> 1:54:48.480 all right, Bye bye bye. The Bechdel Cast is a 1:54:48.520 --> 1:54:53.440 production of iHeartMedia, hosted and produced by Me Jamie Loftus. 1:54:53.000 --> 1:54:56.480 And Me Caitlyn Durrante. The podcast is also produced by 1:54:56.600 --> 1:54:58.200 Sophie Lichtermann and. 1:54:58.160 --> 1:55:00.520 Edited by Caitlyn Dorante. Ever heard of them? 1:55:01.000 --> 1:55:04.440 That's me and our logo and merch and all of 1:55:04.440 --> 1:55:08.200 our artwork in fact are designed by Jamie Loftus ever 1:55:08.240 --> 1:55:08.680 heard of her? 1:55:08.880 --> 1:55:11.880 Oh My God, and our theme song, by the way, 1:55:12.000 --> 1:55:13.800 was composed by Mike Kaplan. 1:55:13.640 --> 1:55:16.800 With vocals by Katherine Voskrasinski. 1:55:16.320 --> 1:55:19.160 Iconic and a special thanks to the one and only 1:55:19.480 --> 1:55:20.760 Aristotle Ascevedo. 1:55:21.320 --> 1:55:25.080 For more information about the podcast, please visit Linktree Slash 1:55:25.080 --> 1:55:25.880 Spectelcast