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Speaker 1: On the Bechdel Cast, the questions asked if movies have

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Speaker 1: women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,

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Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, zeph and

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Speaker 1: Beast start changing it with the Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 2: Behold, Jamie, I send you out as sheep amidst the wolves. Well,

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Speaker 2: I'm the devil and your duddy.

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Speaker 3: Me when I'm Keanu and from Florida. Well that's wild,

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Speaker 3: that's you're my father the devil, like sir, Come on,

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Speaker 3: come on. I like the choice. Every choice in this

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Speaker 3: movie is a choice.

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Speaker 2: It certainly is.

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Speaker 3: The choices are taking place four thousand times a second.

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Speaker 3: I thought you were gonna say my favorite sin Is podcast,

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Speaker 3: you turn into al Pacino and then say my favorite

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Speaker 3: cit Is podcast. Also, can this movie pass the Bechdel test?

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Speaker 3: If everyone is secretly al Pacino? If al Pacino is

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Speaker 3: lurking beneath the skin of we are to believe like

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Speaker 3: seventy percent of the characters on screen, can it pass? Right?

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Speaker 1: Well?

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Speaker 2: Is it that?

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Speaker 3: Can Jackie? And unless she's al Pacino?

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Speaker 2: Well, I was like, okay, is it al Pacino infiltrating

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Speaker 2: everyone's bodies? Or are they just like I don't know

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Speaker 2: little minor demons. Literally, they've sold their soul to him.

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Speaker 3: Who knows, who knows, you know, who might know? Andrew Niederman,

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Speaker 3: the writer who brought you Pin What Yes? Pin, Yes, exactly. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: And he's still alive. He's eighty four. He's in Palm Springs.

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Speaker 3: We could get in the car right now and be like, wow,

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Speaker 3: is everyone al Pacino? He also, I mean, I think

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Speaker 3: according to his scholarly journal Wikipedia page, The Devil's Advocate

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Speaker 3: is his most famous novel that got adapted. But he

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Speaker 3: also wrote Child's Play.

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Speaker 2: Oh that it's more famous than The Devil's Advocate.

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Speaker 3: Unless he wrote a book called Child's Play that's not

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Speaker 3: Child's Play, in which case I redact and he shouldn't

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Speaker 3: have done that. He also wrote a book in two

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Speaker 3: thousand and three called The Baby Squad. I had fun

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Speaker 3: on his on his sicopedia page. Oh goodness, Andrew Niederman's

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Speaker 3: The Baby Squad. Anyways.

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Speaker 2: Well, then we also have Tony Gilroy, yes of and

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Speaker 2: or Fame, Indoor Fame, writing the screenplay.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I hope they cut him a big old

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Speaker 3: check for this. We love the Gilroy bros. On this

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Speaker 3: podcast indeed. Okay, okay, we got to get our guests

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Speaker 3: in here. Just one of the greatest of all time

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Speaker 3: who brought us one of the movies of all time?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, should we introduce ourselves first?

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Speaker 3: Or I guess so? I guess so. Sorry, we haven't

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Speaker 3: recorded in two weeks, so I forget how to do

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Speaker 3: my job. So welcome to the Bexel Cast. My name

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Speaker 3: is Jamie Loftis.

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Speaker 2: My name is Caitlin Jonte. This is our show where

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Speaker 2: we examine movies through an intersectional feminist leanne, using the

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Speaker 2: Bechdel test as a jumping off point. What is it though?

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Speaker 3: The Bechtel test is what a woman talks to al Pacino.

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Speaker 3: Alison Bechdel came up with the Bechdel test back in

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Speaker 3: the eighties for her comic collection Texs to Watch Out For.

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Speaker 3: Originally a queer metric that was sort of written as

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Speaker 3: a one off joke, has since been applied more broadly

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Speaker 3: in the mainstream and does not at any point address

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Speaker 3: what if someone's secretly al Pacino? True. However, there is

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Speaker 3: a lot to talk about with this movie in general,

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Speaker 3: and I was actually like, I can't say, pleasantly surprised

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Speaker 3: in good faith here, but I could say I was

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Speaker 3: surprised at how how much there is to talk about

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Speaker 3: with regards to gender.

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Speaker 2: I agree.

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Speaker 3: So let's get our returning guest. I'm like, is it

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Speaker 3: her fifth time? Do we have to send her a jacket? Unclear?

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Speaker 2: Perhaps you know her. She's the host of You're Wrong

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Speaker 2: About You Are Good and the podcast The Devil. You

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Speaker 2: know it's Sarah Marshall.

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Speaker 4: Hello, I would love a jacket or any piece of

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Speaker 4: maybe a goblet.

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Speaker 3: Oh my god, putting that out there. Do you not

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Speaker 3: have any goblets? I feel like you have to own

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Speaker 3: a goblet. I feel like it's pink and opal lighte. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I do.

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Speaker 4: You're right you've had putting out of one of those probably, yeah,

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Speaker 4: but I need a bigger one that's engraved.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: And this certainly is a movie.

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Speaker 3: I just am so excited to talk. But first, before

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Speaker 3: we talk about the movie, we want to hear about

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Speaker 3: the podcast. I'm so excited it's finally coming out, and

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Speaker 3: obviously it is in conversation with this documentary we're covering today.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's true. It is a documentary, this biopic, Yes,

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Speaker 4: this pick of the Devil.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So tell us about the devil.

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Speaker 4: You know, well, I'm so happy to be here talking

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Speaker 4: about it with you and bringing it out into the

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Speaker 4: world like my very own al Pacino spawn. But this

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Speaker 4: is a show that I've been Jamie, We've been talking

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Speaker 4: about for a long time. I've been working on for

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Speaker 4: a long time with amazing producer Mary Stephan Hagen, and

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Speaker 4: it's a close up look at the Satanic Panic. It's

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Speaker 4: coming out from CBC Podcasts, and it's the kind of

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Speaker 4: thing that I've been wanting to do for such a

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Speaker 4: long time where you get to kind of not just

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Speaker 4: try and tell the story of how the Satanic Panic

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Speaker 4: worked structurally and how it kind of spread across North

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Speaker 4: America and then you know, to beyond, but also to

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Speaker 4: tell that story by zooming in and having conversations by

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Speaker 4: individual people who were affected by it and who were

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Speaker 4: caught up in it. And so our first episode opens

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Speaker 4: with the story of a woman who had the gall

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Speaker 4: to go to small town Kentucky to try and teach

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Speaker 4: photography to teenagers and was quite literally chased out of

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Speaker 4: town based on allegations that she was looking for blue eyed,

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Speaker 4: blonde children to sacrifice. And boy, does that feel like

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Speaker 4: a story that could be happening this week in America.

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Speaker 2: Very true.

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Speaker 3: Yes, unfortunately. I was like, so, I mean, because I've learned,

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Speaker 3: I mean really, everything I know about the Satanic Panic

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Speaker 3: has been from you and from your work before we

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Speaker 3: knew each other over the years, and I'm just I'm so,

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Speaker 3: I'm so excited. It's an opus of sorts and it's weird.

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Speaker 3: If like, in the five years that I've been learning

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Speaker 3: about the Satanic Panic from you, it felt like, wow,

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Speaker 3: well we've moved on as a society. Yeah, since then,

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Speaker 3: but now it's back. It's very much back.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, it's back. Like penny Wise, our pin one

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Speaker 4: could say our pin one could say pin a book,

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Speaker 4: which there is an ad for in one of the

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Speaker 4: mass market paperback editions of Michelle Remembers. Yeah, a book

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Speaker 4: whose kind of backstory we get into on this show too.

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Speaker 4: And yeah, I feel like it we you know, look

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Speaker 4: at how it's moving into the present day. But I

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Speaker 4: feel like one of the things I love about studying

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Speaker 4: history and that shaming I think is such a big

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Speaker 4: part of your work too, is that by learning about

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Speaker 4: kind of the things that people have gone through before

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Speaker 4: and also what people have survived before, it's more thinkable

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Speaker 4: to try and get a grasp on how to proceed

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Speaker 4: and how to be helpful in the raging moral panics

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Speaker 4: of today.

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Speaker 2: It's true, Absolutely, it's true.

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Speaker 3: Well, we're so excited to start listening. I know that

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Speaker 3: our listeners and your listeners. It's kind of just a circle. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: and so everyone's a big pot luck exactly. So if

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Speaker 3: you haven't started listening already, now is the time. And

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Speaker 3: if you haven't seen The Devil's Advocate, well, now is

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Speaker 3: the time to pirate it on one, two, three movies,

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Speaker 3: which is what I did for this episode.

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Speaker 4: Same, or to watch the TV edit on YouTube, which

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Speaker 4: is we'll take you right back to watching it on

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Speaker 4: TNT in two thousand.

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Speaker 3: And three, knowing me way Yeah, okay, So to get

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Speaker 3: into The Devil's Advocate in nineteen ninety seven by Taylor Hackford, Titanic.

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Speaker 2: Year, the Year of Titanic.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he also directed An Officer and a Gentleman and

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Speaker 3: Ray kind of a random assortment of movies from the sky. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: and he's got style. He's got style. Apparently he's got

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Speaker 3: beef with al Pacino as well. I saw that, But

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Speaker 3: in any case, nineteen ninety seven movie Sarah what is

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Speaker 3: your history with this movie?

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Speaker 4: Well, I mean watching this did take me back to

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Speaker 4: a seeing bits of it on TNT after school in

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Speaker 4: like two thousand and three, and then I remember watching

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Speaker 4: this in full the only other time I've done this

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Speaker 4: when I was living in Madison, so it would have

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Speaker 4: been twenty six and at the time, I was like,

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Speaker 4: I'm going to be a lawyer, and I was watching

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Speaker 4: a lot of just lawyer movies, and I feel like

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Speaker 4: this was just like one of my list of lawyer

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Speaker 4: movies to watch, the same way that I watched like

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Speaker 4: The Firm that week and The Verdict, etc. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 4: always it's a lot of the something you know. The

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Speaker 4: another movie I watched during this period, which I fail

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Speaker 4: very nostalgic for is Primal Fear, which is such a fun,

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Speaker 4: ridiculous experience, and both that movie and this movie, interestingly,

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Speaker 4: in a post Ojay world, are about criminal defense attorneys

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Speaker 4: who are shocked, shocked when they realized that their clients

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Speaker 4: are guilty.

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Speaker 3: And it's like, you know, what is like wha.

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Speaker 4: Lawyers generally have some suspicion that maybe they're defending a

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Speaker 4: guilty person. They're not like this surprise, I wouldn't.

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Speaker 3: Say someone who's considered to be a law prodigy. I

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Speaker 3: was like, you don't get right that far in you know,

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Speaker 3: non public defense law with the idea that everyone you

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Speaker 3: defend it like it just it just doesn't make sense.

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Speaker 4: Unless there's a cut scene where the senior partners are

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Speaker 4: like handsome boy, but it sure is stupid, which I

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Speaker 4: would buy for this character, right, And so yeah, I

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Speaker 4: remember watching it and finding it like really over the

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Speaker 4: top and odd and revealing to me this interesting idea

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Speaker 4: that to defend someone's constitutional rights is evil, which I

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Speaker 4: think is a very interesting sort of like nineties tough

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Speaker 4: on crime throughout an American pop culture. But what I

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Speaker 4: also remember is that towards the end, you're like, what

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Speaker 4: is happening? And I was so delighted to return to

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Speaker 4: it for this show and have the same reaction, which

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Speaker 4: is that in the last half hour or so, you're like,

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Speaker 4: I feel like I'm having a stroke, but in the

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Speaker 4: best way possible, at least for me.

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Speaker 2: I mean, no, I had the same experience.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I really like, I don't know, Kaitlyn, what's your

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Speaker 3: history with this movie?

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Speaker 2: I had never seen it, nor did I really know

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Speaker 2: anything about it. It was not really on my radar.

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Speaker 2: I thought it was that movie The Devil's Own which

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Speaker 2: also came out in ninety seven.

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Speaker 3: What is that? I thought it was Meet Joe Black.

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Speaker 2: Oh okay, so we're confusing it for different confused Brad

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Speaker 2: Pitt movies.

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Speaker 4: Wagest America had themes in nineteen ninety seven.

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Speaker 2: It's true. But yeah, so I was like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's that Brad Pitt Harrison Ford movie. Wait, no, it's not.

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Speaker 3: And I it was the Brad Pitt Anthony Hopkins movie, right,

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Speaker 3: And Brad Pitt was almost in this movie.

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Speaker 4: If you hear about the Devil, you just feel like

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Speaker 4: it's gotta be Brad Pitt. Yeah, he probably would have

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Speaker 4: had an easier time with the accent.

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Speaker 2: Yes, because he's from Oklahoma. I think I wonder if

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Speaker 2: one of the reasons he didn't do it is because

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Speaker 2: he was just in seven a couple of years prime.

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Speaker 2: And it also has very like doubly like sin vibes

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Speaker 2: who knows.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, vanity got to cut your own face off?

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Speaker 2: Yes, my favorite sin.

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Speaker 3: But yeah.

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Speaker 2: So I didn't really know anything about this movie. And

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Speaker 2: then I was like, oh, okay, the Devil's Advocate that

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Speaker 2: really sounds like one of those stories where the writer

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Speaker 2: came up with the title first and then reverse engineered

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Speaker 2: a story around it.

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Speaker 3: And then was incredibly literal. In fact, yes, I was

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Speaker 3: shocked at how literal the title end being. I was like, Wow,

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Speaker 3: this movie is engaging with its title in an unprecedented way.

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Speaker 2: I feel like the only way it would have been

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Speaker 2: more literal is if he was defending the devil himself,

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Speaker 2: but in this case, he just works for the devil.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know that's true. I mean, look, if

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Speaker 3: you've already written the perfect novel, which is start phoning

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Speaker 3: it in, why not. I'm not mad about it. You know.

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Speaker 4: This movie also feels very similar in tone to the

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Speaker 4: Rosemary's Baby sequel Son of Rosemary, which I encourage everyone

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Speaker 4: to read, which just kind of like this starts off

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Speaker 4: like kind of a bad thriller that you know where

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Speaker 4: it's going, and then at the end is like, I

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Speaker 4: don't know, It's like mister Toad's Wild's Ride. You're like, oh,

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Speaker 4: we're literally going to hell. That's like, I like it.

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Speaker 4: I didn't expect it.

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Speaker 3: This this movie. Look, I thought I knew what was

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Speaker 3: going to happen, and I was only right sometimes.

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Speaker 2: Well, tell us, Jamie, what is your relationship with this movie?

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Speaker 3: I thought it was me Joe Black. I thought I

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Speaker 3: had seen it, and then I start to moment one.

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Speaker 3: Once I saw the poster, I was like, I have

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Speaker 3: not seen it. It's not me Joe Black. Who I

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Speaker 3: think that's it. That's Brad Pitt is Death, not the Devil.

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Speaker 3: I've never seen it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I haven't seen it. It was on

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Speaker 4: planes for a while.

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Speaker 3: We I don't know why we like owned it. We

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Speaker 3: owned it. I remember because it had two video cassettes

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Speaker 3: and oh I had two Titanic vibes. Again, that Titanic, right,

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Speaker 3: Although this movie could have had two cassettes because it

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Speaker 3: is simply too too long. Oh my god, it is.

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Speaker 3: It's unforgivably long.

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Speaker 4: This movie is as long as Good Fellas, yeah, which

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Speaker 4: takes place over like fifteen years.

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Speaker 3: Good Fellas, which iconically does not feel long. But that said,

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Speaker 3: so I did not have any experience with this movie,

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Speaker 3: you know, in terms of what our show is, why

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Speaker 3: we come to this place. It fairs very badly.

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Speaker 2: Oh yes, But.

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Speaker 3: Did I enjoy myself? I sure did. I want to say, though,

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Speaker 3: this is like we need to like put a this

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Speaker 3: is the third Jeffrey Jones jump scare of this fiscal

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Speaker 3: quarter on the Bechdel Cast. He really he.

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Speaker 4: Worked his way into the nap of the eighties and nineties.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's really vile. I mean it's like satisfying

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Speaker 3: to see him die a horrible death, yes, But outside

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Speaker 3: of that, I was like three times unbelievable because we

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Speaker 3: recently covered Amadis and Sleepy Hollow. Yeah huh. In any case,

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Speaker 3: did I like this fuckast movie? I did? I did?

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Speaker 3: I It is not pro women? What is it saying?

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Speaker 3: Kind of not very much, but it's hard to know.

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Speaker 4: It's saying, would you like to watch al Pacino do

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Speaker 4: a monologue for twelve minutes?

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Speaker 3: And it's the answer.

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Speaker 2: And just sam it up the entire time.

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Speaker 3: That was the wild thing too, where it's like, I

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Speaker 3: do think that al Pacino is Like, it's so weird

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Speaker 3: to say that a performance that is like al Pacino

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Speaker 3: shouting mostly is like him phoning it in, But it is.

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Speaker 3: And that's so funny that there is someone who when

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Speaker 3: he phones it in, he's screaming the whole time.

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Speaker 4: It also reminds me of like the famous story about

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Speaker 4: doctor strange love that. Kubrick was like, okays, Scott, just

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Speaker 4: do one take where you're really over the top, just

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Speaker 4: to warm up. We won't even use it. And then

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Speaker 4: he was like, Hey, we're gonna use it.

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Speaker 3: Really.

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Speaker 4: The nice thing about al Pacino is that he doesn't

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Speaker 4: need to be tricked. Tells you that performance on purpose.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, He's like, that's what I can't also that,

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Speaker 3: I mean, I just all the behind the scenes with

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Speaker 3: this movie are is very funny and bizarre, and just

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Speaker 3: like we're just glad that Keanu found his way to

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Speaker 3: the matrix. Indeed eventually, but the stories around this movie

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Speaker 3: are very funny.

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Speaker 2: He turned down Speed two to be in.

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Speaker 3: This, to do this, He turned down eleven million dollars

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Speaker 3: in Speed two to do this, and he took a

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Speaker 3: pay cut so he could work with al Pacino. And

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Speaker 3: then he did that accent and you're like, this is wild. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: but I'm not this is not a Keanu slander podcast.

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Speaker 3: But also critically, and then I'll stop, I think that

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Speaker 3: this is also not a Keanu Reeves coddling podcast. That

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Speaker 3: is a very I feel like we have over corrected.

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Speaker 3: We have over corrected, all right, He's pretty good in

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Speaker 3: this movie, he's pretty good. Well, it's okay to be

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Speaker 3: pretty good at your job. I'm so sick of like

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Speaker 3: adults infantilizing other wealthy adults. I'm like, what the fuck, Like, Okay,

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Speaker 3: it's a fine performance. Charlie Starron is awesome. Her haircut

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Speaker 3: is awful. I love that Keani's character, who is iconically

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Speaker 3: named Kevin the Devil's Son, is named Kevin. That's a minion.

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Speaker 3: That's not a guy, but but in the nineties, it's

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Speaker 3: not an adult.

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Speaker 4: It's a kid in a baseball cap who gets to

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Speaker 4: adopted air but absolutely absolutely.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, an adult Kevin who is just too much.

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Speaker 3: But this feels ultimately like a like put together, Like

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Speaker 3: I don't know. This movie is both completely off the

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Speaker 3: rails and feels like very calibrated. I mean, that's why

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Speaker 3: I'm excited to talk about like the context that this

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Speaker 3: movie came out in with you, Sarah, because it feels

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Speaker 3: very like pulling from multiple trends in nineties media, where

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Speaker 3: it's like it's got the erotic thriller elements, it's got

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Speaker 3: the legal thing, it's got the satanic panic thing. Like

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Speaker 3: there's just a lot happening and they're like, what if

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Speaker 3: we put it all in one movie.

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Speaker 4: It's like the Trifle and Friends, where the recipe pige

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Speaker 4: has got stuck together and you have like peas and

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Speaker 4: jam and the same thing. And actually, I do want

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Speaker 4: to tell you because after I watched this, I did

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Speaker 4: what I frequently do, which is run to see what

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Speaker 4: ROGERI Bert said about it. Okay, because he's my favorite killjoy.

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Speaker 4: I just love him so much, And he said.

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Speaker 3: I hope people say that about us too.

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Speaker 4: He said the John Grisham stuff clashed with the Exorcist stuff. Still,

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Speaker 4: I enjoyed Picturino, which is basically like I mean, yeah.

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Speaker 3: Pretty pretty solid review. Overall, I enjoyed.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this movie made me want to rewatch Constantine, Oh,

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Speaker 2: which is that Keanu Reeves movie where he I actually

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Speaker 2: don't remember what it's about, but there's also something about

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Speaker 2: It's like he's like a demon Holly or something.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, he's got to kill It's one of those movies

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Speaker 4: that if hear me a boy makes you watch in

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Speaker 4: two thousand and seven.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yes or tn T this movie is I didn't

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Speaker 3: think this until you said it, Sarah, but this movie

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Speaker 3: is very t and T coded. Oh yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 4: Well, and also because this was during the time when

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Speaker 4: TNT was playing Law and Order for like four hours

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Speaker 4: every afternoon, and I know because I was watching it

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Speaker 4: whenever it was on, and so it was weird when

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Speaker 4: they would be playing this because they're literally, I think,

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Speaker 4: in one of the same courtrooms that Law an Order

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Speaker 4: uses with the beautiful mural and then it's about the devil.

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Speaker 4: And the nineties were like secu heyday for just like

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Speaker 4: legal thrillers all have the same color palette, and they

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Speaker 4: frequently did I mean, at least in like A Time

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Speaker 4: to Kill, you have Charlie's there and being like, please

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Speaker 4: don't defend the defendant in the wildly rigged racist case. Honey,

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Speaker 4: we're getting snubbed at the country club or whatever, you know.

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Speaker 4: And so I just like having this thing that felt

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Speaker 4: like you kind of feel And that's kind of it's

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Speaker 4: both what does and doesn't work about it for me

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Speaker 4: that you kind of feel like you know where it's

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Speaker 4: going and it does feel grishay and then it's.

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Speaker 3: The devil, but then it's the devil, and yeah, Kevin

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Speaker 3: is the Devil's sun and misses like my God does.

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Speaker 3: Every character is just everyone's doing way too much, but

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Speaker 3: I love it. I love it When Keanu I think

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Speaker 3: that it's like either the line is misspoken, I miswatched it,

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Speaker 3: or it was just a clunkily written line. Any of

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Speaker 3: these things are possible. But when Charlie's Terarren's character gets

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Speaker 3: the hair cut, she goes from curly like fun blonde

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Speaker 3: like bouncy curls. She looks like Elizabeth Berkeley, and then

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Speaker 3: yeah does and then al Pacino says, get a brown bob,

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Speaker 3: Like You're like, what do you mean? Like I did

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Speaker 3: not understand the motivation behind the brown boss.

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Speaker 4: Like get your hair off your neck. The neck is

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Speaker 4: the borderland and seduction, and it's like like stop and

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Speaker 4: there's You're like, you know, whether he's the devil or

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Speaker 4: a man who tells random women what to do with

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Speaker 4: their hair at parties, he represents the same threat level.

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Speaker 3: You know, yes, I will say he is great. I

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Speaker 3: mean it's also whatever, al Pacino. There's plans to talk

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Speaker 3: about with al Pacino too, but.

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Speaker 4: So I might have been thinking of actually Jad but whatever.

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Speaker 3: I think it stands. The point stands. The point stands. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: But in any case, this line cracked me up because

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Speaker 3: she's like, you.

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Speaker 5: Don't like the haircut, Kevin, You don't like my haircut, Kevin,

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Speaker 5: And then and then he goes, no, it's fine, and

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Speaker 5: then the next line is it's traumatic.

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Speaker 3: He's talking about something else, but it sounds like he's calling.

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Speaker 2: Her haircut traumatic.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I know, maybe laugh so much, but he is

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Speaker 3: changing the subject, but the way Keanu is reading it

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Speaker 3: makes it sound like he's still talking about the haircut. Yes,

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Speaker 3: he cracked me up.

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Speaker 4: Also, you feel like this was like the nineties were

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Speaker 4: I feel like the nineties were so much worse in

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Speaker 4: terms of an actor doing an accent for a role

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Speaker 4: and then deciding scene by scene whether he was going

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Speaker 4: to do it or possibly I don't know. I don't

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Speaker 4: want to coddle Kanu too much, but you wonder if

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Speaker 4: like the director is like, just just don't worry about

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Speaker 4: it anymore, and then they edit it together so that

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Speaker 4: it comes in and out like that.

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Speaker 3: Right. Oh yes, Well when this is like not even

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Speaker 3: the most famous example of Kano doing that, because wouldn't

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Speaker 3: that be Dracula? Yes, yeah, like that's I think his

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Speaker 3: most iconically like not so great well was I mean,

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Speaker 3: I don't know if you've ever like acted in something,

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Speaker 3: particularly like a film project, where you're like, you know not,

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Speaker 3: you know whatever. It's kind of on you to keep

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Speaker 3: the accent consistent. It's not an easy thing to do,

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Speaker 3: but also you should do it.

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Speaker 2: Yes, And on that note, let's take a quick break

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Speaker 2: and then come back for the recap. Okay, we're back,

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Speaker 2: and we will place a trigger warning here for many

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Speaker 2: things kind of what, yes, you name it, child sexual abuse, rape, incest, suicide.

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Speaker 2: This movie kind of runs the whole gambit.

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Speaker 3: Of animal sacrifice.

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Speaker 2: Yes, lots of violence and upsetting things.

432
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:55,600
Speaker 3: Kevinnvin.

433
00:23:56,320 --> 00:24:01,360
Speaker 2: We open in a courtroom in Gainesville, Florida, where defense

434
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:07,520
Speaker 2: attorney Kevin Lomax not to be confused with Kevin le Mignon,

435
00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:11,080
Speaker 2: thank you for saying that, Yes, played by Keanu Reeves,

436
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:15,640
Speaker 2: is defending a teacher who is on trial for sexually

437
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:17,560
Speaker 2: abusing his students.

438
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:21,080
Speaker 3: Heather Modarazzo too, Yes, and.

439
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:25,760
Speaker 2: This teacher seems very guilty, but Kevin, despite having some

440
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:30,840
Speaker 2: misgivings about his client, manages to turn things around and

441
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:35,600
Speaker 2: tries to expose the student who is testifying as a

442
00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:39,760
Speaker 2: liar who made up this story about her teacher. And

443
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 2: it seems like it's going to work and that he

444
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:45,480
Speaker 2: has won the case, and so he goes out to

445
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:48,280
Speaker 2: celebrate with his wife.

446
00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:51,240
Speaker 4: Mary Anne, his fun, curly wife who does shots.

447
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:55,440
Speaker 3: Yes, she's still got curly hair. But the devil makes

448
00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:56,119
Speaker 3: you get a bob.

449
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:03,480
Speaker 2: This is Charlie Sterren's character, of course. And while they're

450
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:07,640
Speaker 2: at the bar, Kevin is approached by an attorney from

451
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,440
Speaker 2: a law firm in New York City. Ever heard of it?

452
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:18,720
Speaker 2: That's Babylon, that's the Devil's playground, city of sin. And

453
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 2: this firm is impressed with Kevin because he's never lost

454
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:28,120
Speaker 2: a case and they want his help with a jury selection. Now,

455
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:32,640
Speaker 2: Kevin's mother, Alice, doesn't think this is a good idea.

456
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 2: She's super religious and she thinks that New York is

457
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:41,680
Speaker 2: full of godless heathens. But Kevin and his wife Mary

458
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,720
Speaker 2: Anne go to New York anyway, and he does a

459
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:50,360
Speaker 2: good job with the jury selection. So John Milton, Okay,

460
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:57,240
Speaker 2: Paradise Lost mud very subtle played by al Pacino.

461
00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:01,119
Speaker 3: Can I be vulnerable and say I've never read Paradise Lost?

462
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,439
Speaker 3: Oh no, oh god, how many people have? You know?

463
00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:07,400
Speaker 4: I'm very proud of anyone who's managed it.

464
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 2: But okay, yeah, no, I've never read that. I have

465
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 2: never read Dante's Inferno.

466
00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:20,159
Speaker 3: Everything I know about Dante's Inferno is from Lemony Snicket books.

467
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:22,679
Speaker 4: That's pretty good, you know what you want to know?

468
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:26,119
Speaker 4: What I just learned is that Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, his

469
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:31,920
Speaker 4: wife died when her dress caught fire and she burned

470
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:34,200
Speaker 4: to a crisp, which happened to a lot of women

471
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 4: in the mid nineteenth century because the fashion was for

472
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 4: women to wear very very flammable clothing, and so they

473
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:45,040
Speaker 4: did because you know, it feels like a trick. That

474
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 4: feels like a trick, like no, no, just wear layer

475
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,440
Speaker 4: is a very very flammable cotton in the air, it'll

476
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:55,359
Speaker 4: be great. And so after that he didn't really write

477
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:59,320
Speaker 4: much or any new poetry, and he devoted much of

478
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,680
Speaker 4: the rest of his life life to translating the Divine Comedy,

479
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 4: which I just think is like, ohh such a relatable

480
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 4: grief thing to do. You're like, nobody talk to me.

481
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,639
Speaker 4: I'm translating the Divine Comedy from Italian. It's going to

482
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 4: take a while. I'm fine, everything's fine in here.

483
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:17,119
Speaker 3: I kind of like, yeah, that's both obviously, like that

484
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 3: is such a traumatic thing. And also it's kind of

485
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:25,920
Speaker 3: dramatic of him to be like, oh, no, leave me alone.

486
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 3: You know I love it. Yeah, we should. We should

487
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 3: really bring back more dramatic grieving of that nature.

488
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 4: We should have PSAs about how increasingly young men are

489
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:40,960
Speaker 4: translating epic Italian poems to deal with their emotions, and

490
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:44,120
Speaker 4: that's why we need to increase mental health access.

491
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:48,280
Speaker 3: It's the male it's the male translation epidemic. Everyone's talking

492
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:50,160
Speaker 3: about it. It's really bad.

493
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 4: If they think everyone else is doing it, they're going

494
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 4: to start translating poems. I swear to God it's true.

495
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:58,119
Speaker 4: This is how this is. This is our attempt to

496
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 4: reverse the narrative. Yeah, they don't want you to translate

497
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:06,400
Speaker 4: classic Italian poems. Boys, It's the last thing they want

498
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:08,959
Speaker 4: you to do. The final rebellion.

499
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:11,920
Speaker 3: In any case.

500
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 2: Anyway, John Milton played by al Pacino, is one of

501
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:21,720
Speaker 2: the senior partners at this law firm and definitely not.

502
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 4: Like John Milton or Tanio.

503
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,879
Speaker 2: And he hires Kevin to work at the firm.

504
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:33,920
Speaker 3: Okay, this does actually now that we're talking about Kevin

505
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:37,960
Speaker 3: the Minion, this does follow Minion logic because Kevin does

506
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 3: Minion rules. Minion serves the most evil master. What is

507
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 3: Kevin doing? Wow, this is kind of like a Kevin thing.

508
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 3: It is a minions. He is a minion and that's

509
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 3: why his accent is so inconsistent. Yeah.

510
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, his first language is minionise.

511
00:28:56,120 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 3: That which means he's he can speak just as many

512
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 3: languages as the devil Well and Christabella Andreoli iconic Connie

513
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 3: Nielsen character. Christabella Andreoli, do you like it on top?

514
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 3: You're like, shut up everyone. Every time someone speaks in

515
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 3: this movie, my reaction is shut up anyways.

516
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 2: Uh So, John Milton gives Kevin a job as well

517
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 2: as this like huge beautiful apartment in Manhattan. Then Kevin

518
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 2: meets his colleagues, including this guy named Eddie Barzoon This

519
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 2: is the Jeffrey Jones character. And Christabella Andreoli that's the

520
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 2: Connie Nielsen character.

521
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 3: Perfect and like many women professional women characters of the

522
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 3: late twentieth century, we know she's really good at her job,

523
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 3: but don't expect to see her doing it and not

524
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 3: expected to become plot relevant. She's there to be naked eventually.

525
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 2: Yes, because every time Kevin looks at her, he goes

526
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:08,480
Speaker 2: hubba hubba a wooga.

527
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 4: It's true it's true, and then his heart bursts out

528
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 4: of his chest.

529
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 3: And yeah, he goes full wolf es. God, we're gonna

530
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 3: when we get to the scene where she do you

531
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 3: like it? On top of your profession? I mean you're like,

532
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 3: oh oh oh lord, Yeah, Tony Gilroy, how are you doing, sir?

533
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 2: Okay. So, Kevin's first assignment is the Moyes case, where

534
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 2: this guy named Philippe Moyez played by Delroy Lindo.

535
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 3: Yes, one of my favorite Chrea directors ever.

536
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 2: Indeed, he is arrested for killing a goat in his

537
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 2: basement and it seems like there's no way to win

538
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:56,320
Speaker 2: this case, but Kevin manages to win by saying that

539
00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:00,080
Speaker 2: Moyees killed a goat as a religious practice, which he

540
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 2: has the constitutional right to observe.

541
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 3: Okay, here's my question with the whole Delroy Lindo thing,

542
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 3: because this movie does extremely poorly on race, as we'll

543
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 3: talk about. Yes, but I was like, genuinely, I was like, okay, So,

544
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 3: once you find out al Pacino's the devil, are we

545
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 3: to believe that Keanu Reeves should not have fought that

546
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 3: religious freedom case? I was very confused.

547
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 2: Let's talk about it later because I like I want

548
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 2: to get into it with that plotline that could have

549
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 2: been absolutely cut from the movie, and perhaps should have been,

550
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 2: because it was cut like twenty minutes out of the runtime,

551
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 2: which is desperately needed for this movie.

552
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:45,240
Speaker 3: Yes, ultimately it's like I'm always happy to see Delroy Lindo.

553
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:49,240
Speaker 3: But that was one of the many baffling moments in

554
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 3: the truly yeah.

555
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 2: But the point is that Kevin wins this unwinnable case,

556
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 2: and so John Milton is like, Wow, Kevin, good job,

557
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 2: you rock and you now. Meanwhile, at home, Marianne has

558
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:09,840
Speaker 2: been hanging out with her neighbor Jackie, played by Tamara Tooney,

559
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 2: who's also married to one of the lawyers at the firm.

560
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 2: I think that guy's name is Lehman.

561
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:18,479
Speaker 3: It is played by Reuben Santiago Hudson, who is an

562
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 3: actor and a writer. He wrote the adaptation of ma

563
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 3: Rainie's Black Bottom. Oh not kidding. Wow, he's just a

564
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 3: very yeah, he's a very versatile guy anyways, which I

565
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 3: think my friend Patrick was in as an extra really yeah,

566
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 3: as a racist Irish man in Oh Pittsburgh. Mary got

567
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 3: that track, Uh, well, shot up Patrick.

568
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:44,720
Speaker 2: But so Marianne is hanging out with Jackie, who is

569
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 2: helping marian decorate her new apartment because women be doing

570
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 2: woman things like decorating. And then Kevin and Marianne go

571
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 2: to this big party in the building and this is

572
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 2: where Marianne meets John Milton and he's like, Wow, you're beautiful,

573
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 2: but your hair, well it looks like shit and you

574
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 2: should change everything about it.

575
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, the whole the whole neck thing.

576
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:17,840
Speaker 2: Right exactly. Meanwhile, Kevin is flirting with Christabella.

577
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 3: And she's flirting right back. Bouschemy tests this you can't

578
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 3: you care? Oh my god? Do you like it on top? Kevin?

579
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 2: Like, and then he's like, excuse me?

580
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:32,680
Speaker 3: Is your wife a Jedi's woman? Kevin? I better get

581
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 3: out of here. You're like just the most written by

582
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 3: man woman ever. Yeah, but it felt like it for me,

583
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 3: it transcended and became camp. Do you like it on top? Kevin?

584
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 2: This is an extremely campy movie. It's taking itself very seriously.

585
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 2: But the camp is that I'm qualifiers true.

586
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 4: I mean that's the thing about The Devil, right, is that, like,

587
00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 4: you can't really be dead serious about Devil stuff.

588
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:01,720
Speaker 2: The Devil is camp.

589
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, it is a campy, little guy.

590
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:07,480
Speaker 4: I'm just look at that outfit for a start, what

591
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 4: is that pitchwork for. It's for poking people in the butt.

592
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:15,879
Speaker 4: It's true, he's a kinky little guy. This movie made

593
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,600
Speaker 4: me think of Angel Heart, which is, like, I don't know,

594
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:21,880
Speaker 4: to me, a similarly campy devil movie where it's like

595
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 4: supposed to be a twist that it's the devil, but

596
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:27,520
Speaker 4: you're like, this has clearly been the devil the entire time,

597
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 4: and like, you know, with like great style. Is directed

598
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 4: by Ellen Parker, but where like if you had to

599
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 4: come up with the point of it, you would have

600
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:38,319
Speaker 4: no idea what to say. Yeah, And they both have

601
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 4: like over the top dramatic endings at opposite ends of

602
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:44,360
Speaker 4: the twelve year old boy spectrum, which I'm excited to

603
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:45,399
Speaker 4: talk about when we get there.

604
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 3: Oh okay, yeah, because ultimately the I mean as close

605
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:52,160
Speaker 3: it's trying to say something about free will, but I

606
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:55,239
Speaker 3: think it is making a very simple and should be

607
00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 3: you know, followed moral, which is do not legally defend

608
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:04,840
Speaker 3: and a super criminals, yeah, like a child's sex abuser.

609
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 3: And you're like, well, all right, got it.

610
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:11,719
Speaker 4: I agree, And you know, for most people who don't

611
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:14,040
Speaker 4: have that job in the audience. You're like, already not

612
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:14,759
Speaker 4: doing that.

613
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:17,839
Speaker 3: I love it. Yeah, that's true. You're like, I did it.

614
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 4: And then if that is your job, I have to

615
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:24,239
Speaker 4: get out a postcard and write to whatever studio made this.

616
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:28,840
Speaker 2: It's true. Okay. So they're at this party and then

617
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 2: eventually Milton summons Kevin and then a couple of the

618
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 2: other attorneys to his penthouse apartment, which is just this

619
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 2: like big room. There's no bedroom, there's no bed, there's

620
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:40,800
Speaker 2: a kitchen.

621
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:44,719
Speaker 4: He's an anti Samantha Jones. She's all bedroom, he's no bedroom.

622
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:48,840
Speaker 3: I think this is a later scene in the same space,

623
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:51,919
Speaker 3: but that whole like where does he sleep? We don't

624
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 3: know where does he fuck everywhere?

625
00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 2: You're like, no, that is the scene.

626
00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 3: Oh it is okay, that is Yeah, it's awesome.

627
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:05,240
Speaker 4: Also Edward Collen coated except Edward Collin fucts nowhere famously.

628
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 3: The thing is, I want that same line read from

629
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:16,040
Speaker 3: Robert Patt's no way.

630
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 2: Oh that's kind of the accent he's doing in Mickey seventeen.

631
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 2: So I feel like he could pull it out.

632
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 3: It is, Yeah, he can do it.

633
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:22,359
Speaker 1: Yeah.

634
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 3: Yeah.

635
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:28,279
Speaker 2: In any case, Milton gives Kevin a new case to

636
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:36,240
Speaker 2: work on this big time real estate developer named Alexander Cullen. Okay, Collin, speak.

637
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:40,880
Speaker 3: Of the devil, Alexander Cullen. Unfortunately, the Alexander Collin penthouse

638
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:43,480
Speaker 3: is Donald Trump's penthouse in New York.

639
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 4: Really is, Yeah, except it's like what if Donald Trump

640
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:49,960
Speaker 4: was the dad from Poultergeist? And you're like, at this point,

641
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 4: I'll take it.

642
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:51,400
Speaker 3: Yeah.

643
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:54,480
Speaker 2: Also, Donald Trump's name is invoked in this movie at

644
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:56,560
Speaker 2: some point where they're at a party and someone says

645
00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 2: Donald Trump was supposed to be here, but he had

646
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 2: a business emergency, and you're like, oh.

647
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:03,680
Speaker 3: My god, I mean I'm sure that that was like

648
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 3: the condition for using the apartment or something like you

649
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:09,480
Speaker 3: need to bring me up in a way that makes

650
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:10,720
Speaker 3: just any.

651
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:14,440
Speaker 4: Reply that I have business emergencies and not going to

652
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 4: sex offender Island emergencies.

653
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 3: Yes, somehow, our fascist president does weasele his way into

654
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:22,440
Speaker 3: this movie that at least has the decency to be

655
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:23,240
Speaker 3: about the devil.

656
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, not take up ahead of ourselves, but

657
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:29,880
Speaker 4: this this movie does imply something about the craigten Nelson

658
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:31,960
Speaker 4: character that you kind of feel like people in the

659
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 4: know probably knew about Trump in the nineties too interesting.

660
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 2: Perhaps, yeah, I believe it. We'll clarify that shortly. But

661
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:43,839
Speaker 2: what we know about Alexander Cullen now is that he

662
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:48,800
Speaker 2: has been charged with murdering three people, including his wife,

663
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:53,280
Speaker 2: and it's going to be this big, very public case.

664
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:55,960
Speaker 2: But Kevin is up to the challenge.

665
00:37:56,680 --> 00:38:02,880
Speaker 3: Go Kevin, lead counsel. Kevin, I feel fine, just honestly,

666
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:05,520
Speaker 3: you need to change your name like I am. You

667
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:08,319
Speaker 3: could be the best layer in the world. I'm not

668
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:11,640
Speaker 3: working with Kevin. Come on, not for a murder trial,

669
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:15,319
Speaker 3: right My life is on the line. Leave Kevin out

670
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 3: of it.

671
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:21,560
Speaker 2: So then Kevin meets with this Alexander Cullen played by

672
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 2: Craig t Nelson, And what's his thing again? I know

673
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 2: that he has like horrible politics. I know that he's

674
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:30,279
Speaker 2: like not a good person. I like it's hard to

675
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:35,080
Speaker 2: keep tracked t Nelson. I know very little about me too.

676
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 4: I miss Craig tel.

677
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 2: I think we might have brought him up on the

678
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 2: podcast before. I don't remember it, but any I think

679
00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:43,680
Speaker 2: he's he's not a great guy anyway. He's not thrilled

680
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 2: with Kevin taking the case, but he doesn't have much

681
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:50,880
Speaker 2: of a choice. Meanwhile, mary Anne, who now has a

682
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:56,960
Speaker 2: completely different haircut and hair color, goes shopping with her

683
00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 2: friend Jackie, and then this weird thing happens where Jackie's like,

684
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:04,360
Speaker 2: look at my titties. Are they fake? Are they real?

685
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:10,280
Speaker 2: Touch them, feel them? And then Marianne sees Jackie's face

686
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:15,960
Speaker 2: and body briefly transform into something that looks demonic.

687
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:17,239
Speaker 3: Looks like bad cgi.

688
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:22,400
Speaker 4: There's nothing more satanic than girls touching each other's boobs famously.

689
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:26,680
Speaker 3: Like right away, you're like, got it, got I see

690
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:27,319
Speaker 3: the go.

691
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:28,799
Speaker 4: Ask Alice school of Satanism.

692
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:32,040
Speaker 3: Chraigtie Nelson, from what I can tell, is your sort

693
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:37,440
Speaker 3: of garden variety, like right leaning libertarian, dork ass loser,

694
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 3: but I do this. His Wikipedia page is fascinating because

695
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:43,360
Speaker 3: I've noticed this as like an editorial thing. I'm like,

696
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:45,840
Speaker 3: I'm sure it's like his reps doing it or something.

697
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 3: But in the personal life section, whenever someone is truly

698
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:52,920
Speaker 3: like a piece of shit, people will edit it to

699
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:55,960
Speaker 3: end it on something innocuous in the hopes that you're scanning.

700
00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:59,000
Speaker 3: Because it's like he endorsed John McCain, He was a

701
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:01,440
Speaker 3: regular guest on and Beck and then it ends on

702
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:05,920
Speaker 3: Nelson is also a lifelong Green Bay Packers fan, and

703
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:10,000
Speaker 3: you're like, you can't fool me. Yeah, I saw Glenn

704
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:11,640
Speaker 3: Beck like whatever, But.

705
00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 4: You're supposed to go about your day and the rest

706
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:16,719
Speaker 4: of your life thinking Craig T. Nelson, go pack go

707
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:18,200
Speaker 4: Yeah exactly.

708
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:24,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, Okay. So then after mary Anne witnesses this really

709
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:28,319
Speaker 2: bizarre thing with her friend Jackie, she keeping is stressfulling

710
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:33,920
Speaker 2: and yes, I also turned into a demon when I shop. Yeah,

711
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:37,200
Speaker 2: if a three way mirror is present, absolutely indeed.

712
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:39,239
Speaker 3: And my hot friends are undressing in front of me,

713
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:42,719
Speaker 3: and I'm feeling insecure about my bob. Come on.

714
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:49,240
Speaker 2: So she freaks out and she tells Kevin that things

715
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 2: are weird and that actually she hates this apartment and

716
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:55,480
Speaker 2: she doesn't like that he's never home anymore because he's

717
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 2: so busy working all the time. And Kevin does not

718
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:04,680
Speaker 2: take this well. He's furious. He's screaming at her, but

719
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:08,799
Speaker 2: then she starts crying, so he consoles her and it

720
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:15,640
Speaker 2: gets horny. Let's yeah, the line read there is hilarious.

721
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:21,320
Speaker 2: They start fucking on the floor, but as they're having sex,

722
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 2: he keeps seeing Christabella instead of mary Anne, and Marianne

723
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:29,520
Speaker 2: can tell something is wrong and that he's not fully present.

724
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:35,440
Speaker 2: Then we cut away. Kevin's mother, Alice comes into town

725
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:39,520
Speaker 2: for a visit and they run into Milton in the elevator,

726
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:43,480
Speaker 2: and she seems very uncomfortable around Milton. Is it because

727
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:45,239
Speaker 2: he's the devil? I don't know, or is it.

728
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 3: Because they had a thing back in the day.

729
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:52,959
Speaker 2: We'll find out. But another weird thing happens on the

730
00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:59,319
Speaker 2: subway where Milton and Kevin are riding the subway for

731
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:01,160
Speaker 2: some reason. I don't no, they have so much money,

732
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:03,240
Speaker 2: why aren't they taking like private cars?

733
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:06,720
Speaker 4: Because he's the devil and he likes to be underground.

734
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 3: Yes, well that is I read in the there was

735
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:14,280
Speaker 3: a Joel Schumacher version of this movie which was supposed

736
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:17,600
Speaker 3: to happen, which actually, my god, I can't believe it didn't. Right,

737
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:20,239
Speaker 3: there's already a lot of nipples in this movie. But

738
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:22,200
Speaker 3: here's the thing. There could have been more. There could

739
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:26,279
Speaker 3: have been more, but in the Joel Schumacher version, I

740
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:29,840
Speaker 3: think that that's probably left over. Because the Joel Schumacher

741
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:33,040
Speaker 3: version is it's like Dante's six Circles of Hell are

742
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:36,080
Speaker 3: going deeper and deeper into the subway system, which is

743
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 3: so cute, which is a cool like visual idea, but

744
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:41,600
Speaker 3: I think that like what happened that didn't happen. And

745
00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:43,920
Speaker 3: then there's just a random scene where these like wealthy

746
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 3: characters who are classist are on the subway.

747
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:49,919
Speaker 4: For some reason, I wonder how much of Joel Schumacher's

748
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:54,040
Speaker 4: The Devil's Advocate ended up in Batman and Robin oh

749
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:54,920
Speaker 4: Never now.

750
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 3: Makes you think rp to the Weirdest Man effort.

751
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:04,080
Speaker 2: But anyway, this strange thing happens on the subway where

752
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:10,960
Speaker 2: Milton tells this man that his girlfriend is currently cheating

753
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:13,440
Speaker 2: on him, and he seems to know a bunch of details,

754
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:18,400
Speaker 2: almost as if Milton is omniscient, almost like he's the devil.

755
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:22,520
Speaker 4: That's why America's Southern lawyer should learn Spanish. Gave him

756
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:23,719
Speaker 4: time on this one.

757
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:28,640
Speaker 2: Yes, also okay, and I can't claim to be an

758
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:31,439
Speaker 2: expert or even proficient in Spanish, but I know enough

759
00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:35,439
Speaker 2: to know that al Pacino was not doing a very

760
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:39,400
Speaker 2: good job and he's it seems like he's speaking Spanish

761
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:42,359
Speaker 2: with an Italian accent, because I think al Pacino does

762
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:43,920
Speaker 2: know Italian.

763
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:47,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, the degree to which he is phoning it

764
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:51,080
Speaker 3: in at volume one thousand. Is that's interesting because I

765
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 3: was I was going to ask you. I was like,

766
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 3: is it even close?

767
00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:58,360
Speaker 2: It's it's pretty rough and it's clear because it keeps

768
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:01,359
Speaker 2: cutting away from him so you're not actually see him.

769
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:03,560
Speaker 2: So I think it's a lot of it is a

770
00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:06,320
Speaker 2: dr and I think lines were probably like said to

771
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:09,279
Speaker 2: him one sentence at a time, and he's still blowing it.

772
00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:11,600
Speaker 3: But there's a lot of there's a lot of ADR

773
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 3: in this movie. My favorite ADR comes from it's misogynous ADR.

774
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:21,279
Speaker 3: It's when they move into the three bedroom apartment and

775
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 3: they add the line three bedrooms. You know what that

776
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:26,239
Speaker 3: means a.

777
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:30,480
Speaker 6: Baby, Like you don't see her, you don't see her

778
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:32,799
Speaker 6: mug move that whole time. I was like, they absolutely

779
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 6: added that, Like they're like, oh no, we never established

780
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:39,880
Speaker 6: that this character's only goal in life is to have

781
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:42,319
Speaker 6: Kyanta Reeve's baby, no matter how much he hates her.

782
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:45,560
Speaker 3: You know what that means?

783
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:53,479
Speaker 4: A baby seamless, no perfect, And then more weird things

784
00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:55,800
Speaker 4: continue to happen at home.

785
00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 2: Marianne sees and speaking of babies, she sees a random

786
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:01,960
Speaker 2: baby in the apartment.

787
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:04,440
Speaker 3: And takes it in stride, takes it really in stride.

788
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:07,040
Speaker 3: She says, Hi, baby, the.

789
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:10,839
Speaker 2: Baby, where's your mummy. You're like, oh, she is cool

790
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:13,279
Speaker 2: as a cucumber about it until she sees what the

791
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:17,200
Speaker 2: baby is playing with, which are entrails, and then she's like,

792
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:19,840
Speaker 2: oh no, And then it seems like maybe Marianne is

793
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:22,960
Speaker 2: having a miscarriage. We don't know if it was a

794
00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:26,520
Speaker 2: dream or if it was real. Marianne feels like she's

795
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 2: losing her grip on reality. And again, Kevin is not

796
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:32,719
Speaker 2: handling this well. He's not listening to her. He is

797
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:35,120
Speaker 2: dismissing her, He's constantly gaslighting her.

798
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:39,280
Speaker 4: He's doing about as well as any husband named Kevin anyway.

799
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:43,800
Speaker 3: And it's a weird Keano performance. So the in my opinion,

800
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:48,239
Speaker 3: the like the reactions feel weird and outsized even for

801
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:51,160
Speaker 3: what he's doing, where it's like you're like, too loud,

802
00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:53,680
Speaker 3: too loud, what's going on?

803
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:55,200
Speaker 2: Yes, I love this, boovie.

804
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:56,120
Speaker 3: It sucks.

805
00:45:56,719 --> 00:45:59,239
Speaker 4: I keep imagining him saying to Charlie Is at some

806
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:03,600
Speaker 4: point like, honey, let's let's go to Los Angeles and

807
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:06,040
Speaker 4: I can infiltrate surf crime communities.

808
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:08,680
Speaker 3: Yeah was it?

809
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:11,000
Speaker 2: I guess this was this was after point break, right.

810
00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:14,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, but you know it's all a big soup in

811
00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:14,439
Speaker 4: my head.

812
00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:14,960
Speaker 1: Sure.

813
00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:19,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, like his like post Speed but pre Matrix era. Yeah,

814
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:22,759
Speaker 3: a couple of rough ones. Yeah, because he is.

815
00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:24,440
Speaker 4: The kind of actor where you feel like people were

816
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:26,480
Speaker 4: trying to figure out what roles he made sense in

817
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 4: and this like I don't know if I feel like

818
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:34,200
Speaker 4: Tom Cruise would make more sense total role. I realized that, Yeah,

819
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:37,479
Speaker 4: recommending more Tom Cruise movies is a loaded thing to say.

820
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:40,560
Speaker 4: But I mean, but no, he's not the right Catholic intensity.

821
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:44,719
Speaker 2: You're absolutely right, Like I love Keanu, but I think

822
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:49,600
Speaker 2: he is more often than not horribly miscast. He's definitely

823
00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:52,920
Speaker 2: almost never put in the right role, and you know,

824
00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 2: I'm not unhappy to see it necessarily, but.

825
00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:58,440
Speaker 3: Especially in like the nineties, where it's like they just

826
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:02,200
Speaker 3: hadn't quite figured out where he because he's he's great

827
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:05,239
Speaker 3: in the right role, right in the wrong role. And

828
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:07,799
Speaker 3: he always fully commits too, which I feel like, unfortunately

829
00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:10,600
Speaker 3: like kind of works against him sometimes because he's fully

830
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:13,200
Speaker 3: committing to like a weird choice, right, because you're like.

831
00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:16,080
Speaker 2: You can tell how hard he's trying, but is maybe

832
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:20,000
Speaker 2: not doing a very good job sometimes. Allah his performance

833
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 2: in Dracula, I didn't think.

834
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:24,560
Speaker 3: That he was because I was reading there like this

835
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:26,480
Speaker 3: is a bad key out of performance. I'm like, I

836
00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:28,960
Speaker 3: didn't think it was like bad. It just didn't think

837
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:30,200
Speaker 3: it was good. It's not right.

838
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:31,399
Speaker 2: It's just not right for him.

839
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:34,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's also like it feels like it's not a

840
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:37,360
Speaker 4: protagonist role that you really have that much to do with,

841
00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:40,160
Speaker 4: because like, isn't he gets mostly reacting to Steph.

842
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:43,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like, I mean like al Pacino has like

843
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:46,959
Speaker 3: I mean, al Pacino is not miscast in this role,

844
00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:50,799
Speaker 3: even though apparently he turned down this role three three

845
00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:54,920
Speaker 3: different times because he was like it's too like trite,

846
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:57,440
Speaker 3: which he's right about, but I just I guess the

847
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:01,120
Speaker 3: he's he was like this is too and too trite,

848
00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:03,760
Speaker 3: which makes sense because he is a really good actor,

849
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:06,200
Speaker 3: and that is true. But I guess they just said

850
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:09,080
Speaker 3: the right number, and he's like, all right, I'll do it.

851
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:15,600
Speaker 3: The theme of the movie everywhere goodness. Okay.

852
00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:20,759
Speaker 2: So Kevin meanwhile, is working on this murder case with

853
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:24,520
Speaker 2: that Cullen guy who says he has an alibi, which

854
00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:27,800
Speaker 2: is that he's been having an affair with his assistant

855
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:30,640
Speaker 2: and he was with her the night the murders happened,

856
00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 2: but Milton is considering taking Kevin off of this case

857
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:39,400
Speaker 2: because he sees how it's affecting Kevin and Marianne's marriage.

858
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:43,359
Speaker 2: But Kevin is like, no, I can have it all.

859
00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:46,960
Speaker 3: It's a test. It's a test, and he passes.

860
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:50,040
Speaker 2: And he passes and he fails.

861
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:53,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's well for mary Anne, he feels. But I

862
00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:57,439
Speaker 3: guess I interpreted that as like the Devil's like giving

863
00:48:57,560 --> 00:48:59,120
Speaker 3: him a chance to do the right thing. And then

864
00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:01,719
Speaker 3: he's like, no, I won't. Yeah, yeah, it's the whole

865
00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:05,080
Speaker 3: free will Yeah, semi theme. Got is it a theme

866
00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:07,520
Speaker 3: or is it guess something people mention a lot. It's

867
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:10,719
Speaker 3: I don't know that the free will thing towards the end.

868
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:15,520
Speaker 3: Yeah again. One of the many like weirdly executed, kind

869
00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:18,360
Speaker 3: of iconic, campy things this movie does is like state

870
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:21,120
Speaker 3: the intended theme at the very end of the movie

871
00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:25,160
Speaker 3: so loudly, how do you like them free wills?

872
00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:31,560
Speaker 7: You're like, oh, I always like that, Yeah, it is fun.

873
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:34,440
Speaker 7: You're like, okay, so this movie is also insecure about

874
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:36,720
Speaker 7: what it's doing for sure.

875
00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:43,239
Speaker 2: Then something happens with the Eddie Barzoon character, where what

876
00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:47,440
Speaker 2: a name you know, yeah, he thinks Kevin is trying

877
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:50,720
Speaker 2: to take his job, and he's been doing some shady

878
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:53,440
Speaker 2: stuff and shredding a lot of doc in redding.

879
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:56,480
Speaker 3: Yes, not point break kind of shredding.

880
00:49:56,560 --> 00:50:00,920
Speaker 4: Unfortunately he's getting Yeah, he's getting the shreddings. It feels

881
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:03,000
Speaker 4: like he's got a lot of refice to get through.

882
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:08,000
Speaker 2: Yes, And because of all of that question Mark Milton

883
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:12,920
Speaker 2: seems to send out some demons to kill Eddie Barzoon.

884
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:16,319
Speaker 4: This guy is cleverly as joggers, which you know, what's

885
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:17,720
Speaker 4: the difference Franklin.

886
00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:20,320
Speaker 2: First as joggers, but then they kind of transform.

887
00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:23,919
Speaker 3: In a way that's both like the lesson behind that one.

888
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:27,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we can talk more about that, but either way,

889
00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:33,759
Speaker 2: Barzoon dies, which Marianne sees from her window and she

890
00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:39,120
Speaker 2: has a breakdown. So Kevin rushes to be with her,

891
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:43,400
Speaker 2: but not before he wins the Cullen case. Don't you worry,

892
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:47,799
Speaker 2: because he never loses. And he goes to be with Marianne,

893
00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:53,120
Speaker 2: who tells Kevin that Milton came into their home and

894
00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:57,279
Speaker 2: raped her, and Kevin's like, I don't believe you. That's

895
00:50:57,280 --> 00:51:01,600
Speaker 2: impossible because I was with him all day. So Kevin

896
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:06,000
Speaker 2: takes Marianne to the hospital for like psychiatric intervention. He

897
00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:08,600
Speaker 2: basically like has her committed, because are the.

898
00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:11,319
Speaker 4: Full Virginia Manson and Candy Man treatment where you get

899
00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:13,560
Speaker 4: strapped to a table and they wheel you away. I'm

900
00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:15,520
Speaker 4: your useless husband is like, goodbye.

901
00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:18,240
Speaker 3: Honey, I'm gonna give you a little kiss. Okay, goodbye.

902
00:51:18,719 --> 00:51:23,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then she's saying, we have blood money on

903
00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:27,920
Speaker 2: our hands. All the times that you one cases defending

904
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:34,359
Speaker 2: guilty clients, we are reaping the consequences of that now.

905
00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:40,040
Speaker 2: And Kevin eventually realizes she's right, But it also he

906
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:41,799
Speaker 2: has to see a whole bunch of other things to

907
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:46,440
Speaker 2: fully believe it, such as and I was unclear exactly

908
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:48,960
Speaker 2: what was happening here, but I think the implication is

909
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:54,120
Speaker 2: that he sees Culin with Cullen's stepdaughter, who he has

910
00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:55,400
Speaker 2: been sexually abusing.

911
00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:59,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh, yeah, I missed that.

912
00:51:59,440 --> 00:52:02,960
Speaker 2: It's super unclear. Oh, because we don't really see we

913
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:05,480
Speaker 2: don't get like a good look really at any point

914
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:06,600
Speaker 2: of the stepdaughter.

915
00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:10,359
Speaker 4: But then they're together at Jeffrey Jones's funeral, which is

916
00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:15,040
Speaker 4: like the ideal place for plot development. And yeah, because

917
00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:18,000
Speaker 4: there's this whole thing where craigten Nelson has been making

918
00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:21,520
Speaker 4: this big show about like I just care about my stepdaughter.

919
00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:24,839
Speaker 4: I'm not allowed to see my stepdaughter anymore, and these

920
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:27,400
Speaker 4: murder charges are bogus and my big secret is that

921
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:30,000
Speaker 4: I was having an affair with another consenting adult.

922
00:52:30,080 --> 00:52:31,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the ticket.

923
00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:35,520
Speaker 4: And I think it's that thing again of like Canna

924
00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:38,680
Speaker 4: Reeves being like, wow, maybe I am defending an innocent

925
00:52:38,719 --> 00:52:41,839
Speaker 4: client at this murder trial, which again is like, you're

926
00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:44,040
Speaker 4: not going to make a living in criminal defense if

927
00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:48,279
Speaker 4: you insist on having innocent clients, right you can. I

928
00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:52,719
Speaker 4: feel like it makes more sense to focus on the

929
00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:55,160
Speaker 4: sense of betrayal of like, oh, I thought I had

930
00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:57,920
Speaker 4: a good understanding of who this person was morally and

931
00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:00,319
Speaker 4: then it turns out that I completely mischecked them, and

932
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:02,799
Speaker 4: I feel like an idiot and like I didn't understand

933
00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:05,640
Speaker 4: the terms of the bargain that I was making. Because

934
00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:10,760
Speaker 4: then he gets acquitted and we see him like inappropriately

935
00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:17,799
Speaker 4: touching his stepdaughter's back at Jeffrey Jones's funeral appropriately just right.

936
00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:21,560
Speaker 3: Just can't even get into it. Yeah, that hadn't even

937
00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:24,680
Speaker 3: really like connected for you, but you're totally right of

938
00:53:24,719 --> 00:53:29,200
Speaker 3: like this character is not convincingly competent, like you don't

939
00:53:29,239 --> 00:53:32,280
Speaker 3: believe he's the best lawyer, and it got.

940
00:53:32,080 --> 00:53:34,960
Speaker 4: The football scholarship to law school, just like in Point Break.

941
00:53:36,719 --> 00:53:40,120
Speaker 3: Well, it's like it helps his character development of like

942
00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:44,319
Speaker 3: becoming a bad person if he knows and doesn't care, right,

943
00:53:45,120 --> 00:53:47,759
Speaker 3: And it's not like the movie. The way that the

944
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:50,400
Speaker 3: movie wants him to be likable is like executed so

945
00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:54,040
Speaker 3: weirdly because clearly the movie doesn't care if we think

946
00:53:54,080 --> 00:53:57,880
Speaker 3: he's a good partner or not. He's never not screaming

947
00:53:57,920 --> 00:54:02,120
Speaker 3: at Charlie's, so you're just like it's just weird.

948
00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:05,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, right, it feels like they wrote all the other

949
00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:07,239
Speaker 4: characters and then just had him sort of do what

950
00:54:07,280 --> 00:54:10,919
Speaker 4: he had to do to make the scenes make sense. Right. Yeah,

951
00:54:10,920 --> 00:54:12,719
Speaker 4: It's like he has to start off as someone who

952
00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:15,880
Speaker 4: has no idea how to do his job properly in

953
00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:21,000
Speaker 4: order to continue to be surprised, you know, because like, Yeah.

954
00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:23,560
Speaker 3: Another Kanu line read that's going to be rattling around

955
00:54:23,560 --> 00:54:27,600
Speaker 3: my head for years is when he was again his

956
00:54:27,719 --> 00:54:30,800
Speaker 3: character who's a piece of shit, one might say the

957
00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:36,440
Speaker 3: whole movie, Yeah, it is yelling at critinals and Secretary says,

958
00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:39,080
Speaker 3: you've been polishing his knob for months and you don't

959
00:54:39,080 --> 00:54:42,359
Speaker 3: know if he has foreskin. I was like, I don't

960
00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:46,760
Speaker 3: don't yell foreskin at a lady. I'll say that even

961
00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:48,360
Speaker 3: if you're prepping.

962
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:51,040
Speaker 4: A witness, write it on an index card and slide

963
00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:53,560
Speaker 4: it across the table like it's a really high salary

964
00:54:53,680 --> 00:54:54,160
Speaker 4: or something.

965
00:54:55,840 --> 00:54:58,839
Speaker 3: That was just like such an unpleasant line.

966
00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:02,440
Speaker 2: To hear, know, old writing choices.

967
00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:04,000
Speaker 3: I also think that.

968
00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:09,319
Speaker 4: In the supernatural vein this movie and Liar Liar, I

969
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:13,280
Speaker 4: think are both inspired by the O. J. Simpson Trial.

970
00:55:14,080 --> 00:55:18,120
Speaker 4: It's one of my analyses, right because like we have

971
00:55:18,239 --> 00:55:22,280
Speaker 4: this moment of like America feeling like a bit scandalized

972
00:55:22,520 --> 00:55:27,640
Speaker 4: at criminal law and sort of what is maybe legally

973
00:55:27,680 --> 00:55:31,240
Speaker 4: permissible but not morally permissible when you're mounting a defense,

974
00:55:32,080 --> 00:55:35,120
Speaker 4: and that this movie and Liar Liar and Primal Fear,

975
00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:37,239
Speaker 4: as I've mentioned before, but Liar Liar is a more

976
00:55:37,239 --> 00:55:40,000
Speaker 4: fun comparison or about like what if you were a

977
00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:44,000
Speaker 4: really good defense lawyer but then something supernatural happened, And

978
00:55:44,040 --> 00:55:49,719
Speaker 4: it's also about appreciating your partner more. I guess, yeah, wow,

979
00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:53,600
Speaker 4: I've never seen Liar Liar. Somehow, it's very fun it's

980
00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:56,759
Speaker 4: Jim Carrey is a lawyer. He's having fun. I like,

981
00:55:56,960 --> 00:55:59,600
Speaker 4: I like Jim Carrey. I realized that not everyone can

982
00:55:59,640 --> 00:56:02,440
Speaker 4: handle I think I would like uncut Carrie.

983
00:56:02,640 --> 00:56:06,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's fun. It's also got like I know.

984
00:56:06,640 --> 00:56:10,080
Speaker 4: I've made this joke somewhere before, but who cares. It's

985
00:56:10,120 --> 00:56:13,640
Speaker 4: like one of those like light nineties comedies that just

986
00:56:13,719 --> 00:56:16,120
Speaker 4: revealing what the economy was like back then. Has like

987
00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:20,880
Speaker 4: a beautiful orchestral score that makes me imacgin like a

988
00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:25,080
Speaker 4: coronette player in the bathroom, like honey, honey, I'm learning

989
00:56:25,080 --> 00:56:28,960
Speaker 4: my part for a liar. Liar Honey.

990
00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:32,000
Speaker 2: I've seen that movie probably twenty times between the ages

991
00:56:32,040 --> 00:56:35,920
Speaker 2: of like eleven and twelve and then never again.

992
00:56:36,520 --> 00:56:39,840
Speaker 4: So I bet you could recite it like a massa.

993
00:56:39,920 --> 00:56:40,279
Speaker 3: I bet.

994
00:56:40,719 --> 00:56:41,080
Speaker 2: I bet.

995
00:56:41,360 --> 00:56:44,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, we should do. We should do like a maybe

996
00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:47,759
Speaker 3: that's a Patreon theme or something like a lawyer brewery

997
00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:51,239
Speaker 3: because it is interesting, like what whatever I mean? I know, Sarah,

998
00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:53,120
Speaker 3: that's like so much of what your show is about,

999
00:56:53,239 --> 00:56:57,000
Speaker 3: but like what our you know, pop culture perception of

1000
00:56:57,239 --> 00:57:00,920
Speaker 3: justice is depending on the given moment, and yeah, like

1001
00:57:00,960 --> 00:57:04,880
Speaker 3: this it feels almost like weird and Pollyanna ish for

1002
00:57:05,360 --> 00:57:07,560
Speaker 3: what this movie suggests, which is that the devil would

1003
00:57:07,600 --> 00:57:10,640
Speaker 3: have to intervene for a lawyer to act in bad faith,

1004
00:57:10,880 --> 00:57:11,560
Speaker 3: which is like.

1005
00:57:12,120 --> 00:57:15,560
Speaker 4: Great, yeah, And it's also it's interesting because it's like

1006
00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:18,920
Speaker 4: there are so many moments where it flirts with coherence, right,

1007
00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:21,960
Speaker 4: and like like this firm reminds me of like Wolfram

1008
00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:25,000
Speaker 4: and Heart from Angel, where they're like a law firm

1009
00:57:25,040 --> 00:57:27,920
Speaker 4: that very unsubtly, like we learn, is you know, up

1010
00:57:27,920 --> 00:57:31,400
Speaker 4: to all kinds of like shady, very high level international

1011
00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:34,960
Speaker 4: stuff that's all about like perpetuating wars and you know,

1012
00:57:35,360 --> 00:57:39,040
Speaker 4: keeping the working class down and doing like the real

1013
00:57:39,160 --> 00:57:41,840
Speaker 4: big corporate evil that I think is very different than

1014
00:57:42,160 --> 00:57:45,600
Speaker 4: just like being any defense lawyer protecting the rights of

1015
00:57:45,640 --> 00:57:49,720
Speaker 4: individuals in a trial setting. But it's like, but everyone

1016
00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:54,320
Speaker 4: hates successful criminal defense lawyers so much in nineteen ninety

1017
00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:56,840
Speaker 4: seven that the two kind of get like steamrolled together

1018
00:57:56,880 --> 00:57:57,920
Speaker 4: at a certain point.

1019
00:57:58,160 --> 00:57:58,720
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1020
00:57:58,880 --> 00:58:04,680
Speaker 2: Right, Well, because on Kevin's journey of realizing, not that

1021
00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:12,600
Speaker 2: maybe journey maybe Ken, we have to talk about Kevin

1022
00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:14,120
Speaker 2: or whatever that movie's called.

1023
00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:17,720
Speaker 3: We literally have to talk about Kevin. Wow, wow, wow,

1024
00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:19,320
Speaker 3: oh no, it's come to this.

1025
00:58:19,720 --> 00:58:22,280
Speaker 2: He's seeing all of this evidence that maybe the law

1026
00:58:22,320 --> 00:58:27,240
Speaker 2: firm he works for is demonic, because then some like

1027
00:58:27,520 --> 00:58:29,560
Speaker 2: I don't know if this is like an attorney general

1028
00:58:29,640 --> 00:58:31,960
Speaker 2: or something. But he goes up to Kevin and he's like,

1029
00:58:32,480 --> 00:58:35,800
Speaker 2: by the way, your law firm is tied up in

1030
00:58:36,120 --> 00:58:40,120
Speaker 2: arms dealing and chemical weapons and money laundering and all

1031
00:58:40,120 --> 00:58:43,120
Speaker 2: this stuff. And so rather than Kevin, you know, just

1032
00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:46,560
Speaker 2: listening to his wife and believing her, he's like, well,

1033
00:58:46,680 --> 00:58:50,360
Speaker 2: now I have a sneaking suspicion that maybe where I

1034
00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:51,360
Speaker 2: work is evil.

1035
00:58:51,480 --> 00:58:53,880
Speaker 4: A guy from the Justice Department or whatever came and

1036
00:58:53,920 --> 00:58:56,920
Speaker 4: bothered me. So yeah, he set me straight, and so

1037
00:58:57,000 --> 00:58:57,919
Speaker 4: now I believe it.

1038
00:58:57,960 --> 00:59:01,960
Speaker 3: Which I do think is how a lot of men behave.

1039
00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:06,560
Speaker 3: But it makes it harder to believe the character has

1040
00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:09,280
Speaker 3: grown and changed because of how late in the movie

1041
00:59:09,360 --> 00:59:10,480
Speaker 3: that happened.

1042
00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:14,280
Speaker 2: Because he never actually believes his wife. No, you just

1043
00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:17,040
Speaker 2: know he gets the information elsewhere.

1044
00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:20,160
Speaker 3: And he also iconically barely reacts when he's like no,

1045
00:59:20,240 --> 00:59:22,600
Speaker 3: I mean he reacts when she dies, but then it

1046
00:59:22,680 --> 00:59:27,040
Speaker 3: sort of is like for two seconds anyway, and then anyways, WHOA.

1047
00:59:26,880 --> 00:59:28,640
Speaker 4: That was weird, Like, well, I gotta be back in

1048
00:59:28,720 --> 00:59:31,439
Speaker 4: court in twenty so I'll react.

1049
00:59:31,160 --> 00:59:34,560
Speaker 3: Later in some ways it ends up working out for

1050
00:59:34,680 --> 00:59:35,320
Speaker 3: my schedule.

1051
00:59:35,360 --> 00:59:40,120
Speaker 2: You're like, oh, well, okay, So what happens next is

1052
00:59:40,160 --> 00:59:44,840
Speaker 2: that at the hospital, Marianne takes her own life, and

1053
00:59:45,320 --> 00:59:49,800
Speaker 2: while that's happening, Kevin's mother, who's back in town, reveals

1054
00:59:49,840 --> 00:59:53,560
Speaker 2: this big secret that she has met John Milton many

1055
00:59:53,640 --> 00:59:58,400
Speaker 2: years before and actually he's Kevin's father.

1056
00:59:59,400 --> 01:00:01,880
Speaker 3: That twist was for still added. That twist is not

1057
01:00:01,920 --> 01:00:03,680
Speaker 3: in the original and the source of material, like most

1058
01:00:03,680 --> 01:00:06,080
Speaker 3: of the ending, is added for the movie. But I

1059
01:00:06,120 --> 01:00:09,160
Speaker 3: also it's interesting as as goofy as it is. I

1060
01:00:09,200 --> 01:00:12,640
Speaker 3: was sort of like, wait, Kevin's mom is fucking.

1061
01:00:12,760 --> 01:00:14,760
Speaker 2: And she's fucking the devil.

1062
01:00:15,760 --> 01:00:18,000
Speaker 3: Kevin's mom had sex when the Devil.

1063
01:00:18,040 --> 01:00:20,160
Speaker 4: I feel like we're speeding past that part.

1064
01:00:20,000 --> 01:00:24,000
Speaker 3: Like I want I wanted to cut away. I wanted

1065
01:00:24,040 --> 01:00:26,440
Speaker 3: to cut away with the Marvelettes playing in the background.

1066
01:00:26,440 --> 01:00:32,080
Speaker 2: Well, it's also not super clear how consensual that interaction

1067
01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:33,439
Speaker 2: might have been.

1068
01:00:33,720 --> 01:00:36,040
Speaker 4: For my own sanity, I would like to think that

1069
01:00:36,120 --> 01:00:38,960
Speaker 4: it was. But yeah, it's a very.

1070
01:00:38,360 --> 01:00:41,000
Speaker 3: I'm gonna I'm gonna for also for the sake of

1071
01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:43,160
Speaker 3: my own brain, to say that it was consensual, because

1072
01:00:43,160 --> 01:00:45,200
Speaker 3: then it can still be funny but also, I mean

1073
01:00:45,240 --> 01:00:48,880
Speaker 3: that is like how and again you're like, okay, he's

1074
01:00:48,960 --> 01:00:53,440
Speaker 3: the devil, but how freely sexual assault and rape is

1075
01:00:53,680 --> 01:00:56,360
Speaker 3: just like tossed around as a plot point in this movie.

1076
01:00:56,400 --> 01:01:01,320
Speaker 4: You're just like yeah, yeah, And it's like the nineties

1077
01:01:01,400 --> 01:01:03,560
Speaker 4: model of ladies Man, where it's like, well, he was

1078
01:01:03,600 --> 01:01:06,400
Speaker 4: constantly surrounded by a vulnerable young woman who he was

1079
01:01:06,440 --> 01:01:09,680
Speaker 4: taking advantage of, so ladies man, and it's like that's right.

1080
01:01:10,080 --> 01:01:12,360
Speaker 4: It's like the opposite of that. It's like a man

1081
01:01:12,400 --> 01:01:14,880
Speaker 4: who's the enemy of all ladies, right.

1082
01:01:14,840 --> 01:01:17,680
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, I'm like Keanu Reeves, who is a real

1083
01:01:17,800 --> 01:01:18,400
Speaker 3: ladies man.

1084
01:01:18,640 --> 01:01:20,000
Speaker 2: The ladies love him.

1085
01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:22,200
Speaker 4: It's true, lady, Yeah, he's a fine wine.

1086
01:01:22,920 --> 01:01:23,439
Speaker 3: It's true.

1087
01:01:24,120 --> 01:01:29,439
Speaker 2: So Kevin learns that John Milton is his father. He's

1088
01:01:29,480 --> 01:01:34,720
Speaker 2: also piecing together that Milton is the devil, so he

1089
01:01:34,800 --> 01:01:36,400
Speaker 2: goes to confront Milton.

1090
01:01:36,480 --> 01:01:39,960
Speaker 3: It's going through a lot again, a very funny reaction

1091
01:01:40,160 --> 01:01:46,120
Speaker 3: from Keanu where he's like oh what, like he seems

1092
01:01:46,160 --> 01:01:50,240
Speaker 3: like kind of like more annoyed than shocked, where he's like, stop,

1093
01:01:50,360 --> 01:01:53,560
Speaker 3: don't tell me this today on the day of my

1094
01:01:53,680 --> 01:01:58,080
Speaker 3: wife's tragic passing. Stop, Like he's so weird.

1095
01:01:58,720 --> 01:02:02,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so he goes to Milton, and his suspicions

1096
01:02:03,160 --> 01:02:06,480
Speaker 2: that Milton is the Devil are confirmed, which means that

1097
01:02:06,600 --> 01:02:13,400
Speaker 2: Kevin is half devil or something like Spock. Yeah yeah,

1098
01:02:13,440 --> 01:02:18,000
Speaker 2: and now Kevin has to reconcile his past choices and

1099
01:02:18,080 --> 01:02:23,960
Speaker 2: behavior because Kevin has acted of his own free will.

1100
01:02:24,000 --> 01:02:27,800
Speaker 2: Milton explains that as the devil, he simply sets the stage,

1101
01:02:28,280 --> 01:02:32,760
Speaker 2: but he doesn't make anyone do anything. So Kevin making

1102
01:02:32,760 --> 01:02:36,680
Speaker 2: a shitload of money defending sex criminals and murderers, and

1103
01:02:36,840 --> 01:02:40,840
Speaker 2: Kevin neglecting his wife, all of that was his own doing,

1104
01:02:41,480 --> 01:02:44,200
Speaker 2: and Kevin has to like sort through.

1105
01:02:44,000 --> 01:02:47,000
Speaker 3: That, which I think is in some ways you could

1106
01:02:47,080 --> 01:02:49,440
Speaker 3: view that as the twist of the movie, being that

1107
01:02:49,480 --> 01:02:56,040
Speaker 3: men are accountable for their actions. And he's like, what not, Yeah,

1108
01:02:56,080 --> 01:02:58,840
Speaker 3: that is like pretty good. I think that's as coherent

1109
01:02:58,920 --> 01:03:02,320
Speaker 3: as this thing gets. I do like that. Yeah, yeah,

1110
01:03:02,360 --> 01:03:02,840
Speaker 3: it's fun.

1111
01:03:03,280 --> 01:03:07,680
Speaker 2: And then Christabella shows up. She is Kevin's half sister

1112
01:03:07,800 --> 01:03:10,000
Speaker 2: because Milton is also her father.

1113
01:03:10,520 --> 01:03:12,960
Speaker 3: They also added this for the movie, and you're like,

1114
01:03:13,960 --> 01:03:15,040
Speaker 3: was that necessary?

1115
01:03:15,320 --> 01:03:18,920
Speaker 4: But like, we haven't had enough non assault related nudity, so.

1116
01:03:19,320 --> 01:03:22,760
Speaker 3: Let's and let's just throw incest into the conversation. While

1117
01:03:22,760 --> 01:03:23,960
Speaker 3: we're at it precisely.

1118
01:03:24,040 --> 01:03:26,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, this is the point where if you're editing it

1119
01:03:26,640 --> 01:03:30,280
Speaker 4: down for TNT, I do not feel jealous of your job.

1120
01:03:30,360 --> 01:03:33,959
Speaker 3: Right now, the movie just abruptly stops, like we don't

1121
01:03:34,000 --> 01:03:34,480
Speaker 3: know what to do.

1122
01:03:34,600 --> 01:03:37,560
Speaker 4: We don't know what to do, but it's not found right.

1123
01:03:37,520 --> 01:03:42,640
Speaker 2: Because after Cristabella shows up, Milton wants Kevin to in

1124
01:03:42,840 --> 01:03:48,760
Speaker 2: gregnate her so as to conceive the Antichrist.

1125
01:03:48,080 --> 01:03:51,560
Speaker 4: But also as like the children of the Devil, aren't

1126
01:03:51,560 --> 01:03:53,880
Speaker 4: they the Antichrist? And do they come together to make

1127
01:03:53,880 --> 01:03:56,560
Speaker 4: a whole Antichrist? Or is it an anti Antichrist? Is

1128
01:03:56,560 --> 01:03:59,000
Speaker 4: it an antipasto? It's very confusing.

1129
01:03:59,120 --> 01:04:01,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, do they cancel each other out? If they have

1130
01:04:01,360 --> 01:04:03,720
Speaker 2: sex and have a baby. Is it just the second

1131
01:04:03,720 --> 01:04:04,520
Speaker 2: coming of Christ?

1132
01:04:04,640 --> 01:04:04,800
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1133
01:04:04,840 --> 01:04:06,440
Speaker 4: What if they accidentally make Jesus?

1134
01:04:07,000 --> 01:04:09,840
Speaker 3: Yeah. I was also a little unclear on why it

1135
01:04:09,920 --> 01:04:12,280
Speaker 3: was so urgent to do it right at that moment,

1136
01:04:12,680 --> 01:04:15,520
Speaker 3: not that that is like the biggest even in the

1137
01:04:15,560 --> 01:04:18,440
Speaker 3: top ten issues going on in this scene, but I

1138
01:04:18,480 --> 01:04:23,000
Speaker 3: was like, okay, okay, so it is all of these disgusting,

1139
01:04:23,040 --> 01:04:25,600
Speaker 3: horrible things, but couldn't it be next week?

1140
01:04:25,960 --> 01:04:28,920
Speaker 4: Like it's all tied with the political situation in Hong Kong.

1141
01:04:29,200 --> 01:04:33,000
Speaker 3: You know it's well he also I the just whatever,

1142
01:04:33,040 --> 01:04:36,040
Speaker 3: the ham fistedness of the end, which is I like,

1143
01:04:36,120 --> 01:04:38,640
Speaker 3: it is super campy and goofy. But when he's like

1144
01:04:38,920 --> 01:04:42,520
Speaker 3: the twentieth century that never was on fire in the

1145
01:04:42,640 --> 01:04:45,640
Speaker 3: twentieth century, You're like, yeah, whatever.

1146
01:04:45,360 --> 01:04:48,960
Speaker 4: Okay, great, sure, I would like I think you should

1147
01:04:48,960 --> 01:04:53,040
Speaker 4: do a Patreon feature. That's just you reciting Alpachino's monologues

1148
01:04:53,080 --> 01:04:55,680
Speaker 4: from the end of this movie.

1149
01:04:56,720 --> 01:04:59,800
Speaker 7: He talks so much in this last scene he will

1150
01:04:59,840 --> 01:05:00,880
Speaker 7: not shut up.

1151
01:05:00,960 --> 01:05:03,440
Speaker 3: I like it, really he needs a power point. Really,

1152
01:05:04,160 --> 01:05:06,320
Speaker 3: he kind of is giving a ted talk at the

1153
01:05:06,440 --> 01:05:11,919
Speaker 3: end about the devil's behavior throughout the twentieth century. You're like, what,

1154
01:05:12,040 --> 01:05:15,400
Speaker 3: and which brings me to my conclusion. You have to

1155
01:05:15,480 --> 01:05:18,520
Speaker 3: have sex with your sister right now to conceive the Antichrist.

1156
01:05:19,840 --> 01:05:23,520
Speaker 2: And Kevin is acting like he's about to do that,

1157
01:05:24,080 --> 01:05:26,800
Speaker 2: but instead he shoots.

1158
01:05:26,480 --> 01:05:30,400
Speaker 4: Himself because the devil is omniscient but not telepathic evidently,

1159
01:05:30,520 --> 01:05:32,440
Speaker 4: or maybe it doesn't work on your own kids. If

1160
01:05:32,440 --> 01:05:34,360
Speaker 4: they had made this into a show, we would have

1161
01:05:34,400 --> 01:05:35,959
Speaker 4: gotten more lore. It would have been fun.

1162
01:05:36,000 --> 01:05:39,560
Speaker 3: But oh well, and the very flimsy because it's like,

1163
01:05:39,600 --> 01:05:41,040
Speaker 3: it feels like the movie just has to end at

1164
01:05:41,040 --> 01:05:43,160
Speaker 3: this point because there's been too many plot points introduced.

1165
01:05:43,160 --> 01:05:46,760
Speaker 3: They're like, we gotta stop, we gotta stop. But Keanu,

1166
01:05:46,920 --> 01:05:54,240
Speaker 3: being like justifying willingly participating in ancestual assault, He's like, well,

1167
01:05:54,680 --> 01:05:57,840
Speaker 3: that's where a crush on you. No, but it for

1168
01:05:57,960 --> 01:06:00,120
Speaker 3: he's about to do it because he had a crush

1169
01:06:00,160 --> 01:06:00,960
Speaker 3: are at work.

1170
01:06:01,600 --> 01:06:06,520
Speaker 2: You're just like, yeah, yeah, but he's But he stops

1171
01:06:06,560 --> 01:06:09,600
Speaker 2: and he shoots himself, which makes Milton burst into flames,

1172
01:06:09,640 --> 01:06:12,800
Speaker 2: and which makes Cristabella shrivel.

1173
01:06:12,520 --> 01:06:13,080
Speaker 3: Up and die.

1174
01:06:13,440 --> 01:06:15,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, she turns into a piece of drift. What I

1175
01:06:15,640 --> 01:06:16,800
Speaker 4: think that's pretty fun.

1176
01:06:17,400 --> 01:06:20,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what happens to women who aren't having sex

1177
01:06:20,160 --> 01:06:21,680
Speaker 3: with Keanu Reeves in this movie.

1178
01:06:22,440 --> 01:06:25,400
Speaker 4: That actually happens if he stopped being sexually active for

1179
01:06:25,440 --> 01:06:28,320
Speaker 4: a full twenty minutes, he can start desiccating.

1180
01:06:28,640 --> 01:06:33,160
Speaker 2: Yes, so they seem to die, or at least Crystabella does,

1181
01:06:33,400 --> 01:06:38,760
Speaker 2: but Kevin doesn't die despite the gunshot wound to his head. Instead,

1182
01:06:39,080 --> 01:06:42,320
Speaker 2: he's transported back to the scene at the beginning of

1183
01:06:42,360 --> 01:06:45,960
Speaker 2: the movie where he's defending that teacher who abuses his students,

1184
01:06:46,720 --> 01:06:49,360
Speaker 2: and he he's like, oh my god, I have a

1185
01:06:49,400 --> 01:06:52,800
Speaker 2: second chance. I can redeem myself. So he quits the

1186
01:06:52,840 --> 01:06:55,560
Speaker 2: case mid trial, which you're not supposed to do.

1187
01:06:56,040 --> 01:06:57,960
Speaker 3: You're not supposed to do that and all. No, but

1188
01:06:58,240 --> 01:07:03,600
Speaker 3: the optics of if this was some weird like fantasy

1189
01:07:03,720 --> 01:07:08,160
Speaker 3: he had at the urinal or whatever, like, it sort

1190
01:07:08,200 --> 01:07:10,360
Speaker 3: of feels like that. But then he goes back into

1191
01:07:10,360 --> 01:07:14,640
Speaker 3: this very serious trial, this trial where a child has

1192
01:07:14,640 --> 01:07:17,360
Speaker 3: been assaulted, and he starts making out with his wife.

1193
01:07:17,520 --> 01:07:20,600
Speaker 3: I was like, oh, yeah, god, Kevin, it's a very.

1194
01:07:20,400 --> 01:07:23,240
Speaker 4: Good point, and also like what's gonna happen? Like is

1195
01:07:23,280 --> 01:07:26,480
Speaker 4: it going to be a mistrial? And then your you know,

1196
01:07:26,720 --> 01:07:29,480
Speaker 4: child plaintiff has to go through all this again, like

1197
01:07:29,680 --> 01:07:32,840
Speaker 4: use your head, piano. I realize you can't as this character.

1198
01:07:33,080 --> 01:07:37,040
Speaker 4: But yeah, but isn't it just wonderful that the ending

1199
01:07:37,080 --> 01:07:39,640
Speaker 4: of this movie is it was all a dreamer? Was

1200
01:07:39,680 --> 01:07:40,920
Speaker 4: it is?

1201
01:07:41,440 --> 01:07:43,840
Speaker 3: It's the only thing this movie hasn't done at this

1202
01:07:43,960 --> 01:07:48,840
Speaker 3: point that you're like sure, like, oh, okay, we're doing it.

1203
01:07:49,000 --> 01:07:54,600
Speaker 3: And then al Pacino is, uh, the vanity is my favorite. Shit,

1204
01:07:54,840 --> 01:07:56,240
Speaker 3: You're like, what.

1205
01:07:56,600 --> 01:07:59,960
Speaker 4: He's playing a journalist, the other most evil profession according

1206
01:07:59,960 --> 01:08:00,880
Speaker 4: to the nineties.

1207
01:08:01,160 --> 01:08:02,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's true.

1208
01:08:02,800 --> 01:08:05,400
Speaker 2: That's true because the way the movie ends is this

1209
01:08:06,200 --> 01:08:09,560
Speaker 2: minor journalist character who we've seen before, but only at

1210
01:08:09,600 --> 01:08:14,280
Speaker 2: the very beginning. At the very end, he transforms into

1211
01:08:14,560 --> 01:08:19,040
Speaker 2: al Pacino, looks directly at the camera says, ah, yeah,

1212
01:08:19,200 --> 01:08:22,360
Speaker 2: vanity my favorite sin, and then he like winks and

1213
01:08:22,400 --> 01:08:23,559
Speaker 2: then cut to black.

1214
01:08:24,720 --> 01:08:28,000
Speaker 3: I love it, And then I think, honestly, this movie

1215
01:08:28,040 --> 01:08:30,840
Speaker 3: that has no restraint. I was really impressed that they

1216
01:08:31,000 --> 01:08:34,280
Speaker 3: had the restraint to spend a million dollars on painted

1217
01:08:34,400 --> 01:08:36,840
Speaker 3: black instead of sympathy for the devil. I thought that

1218
01:08:36,840 --> 01:08:39,720
Speaker 3: that was probably really hard for them to not use

1219
01:08:39,720 --> 01:08:43,760
Speaker 3: sympathy for the devil in this movie every single time

1220
01:08:43,760 --> 01:08:46,280
Speaker 3: al Pacino was on screen. And also sympathy for the

1221
01:08:46,280 --> 01:08:48,960
Speaker 3: devil had just been used in Legion or whatever the

1222
01:08:49,080 --> 01:08:52,599
Speaker 3: Denzel Washington Oh movie is, so maybe it was feeling

1223
01:08:52,720 --> 01:08:56,679
Speaker 3: like overplayed. So it does end kind of Judy Dungeon

1224
01:08:56,760 --> 01:09:01,760
Speaker 3: cat style at the end, you have just.

1225
01:09:01,880 --> 01:09:05,719
Speaker 6: A tale of cats, Like that's sort of the vibe

1226
01:09:06,080 --> 01:09:06,559
Speaker 6: of Alba.

1227
01:09:07,040 --> 01:09:08,720
Speaker 3: It is like that I.

1228
01:09:08,640 --> 01:09:11,200
Speaker 4: Would watch I'm actually watching this on a double bill

1229
01:09:11,240 --> 01:09:14,360
Speaker 4: with cats, like you would emerge no longer able to

1230
01:09:14,439 --> 01:09:16,120
Speaker 4: do math, you know, you.

1231
01:09:15,960 --> 01:09:20,879
Speaker 3: Would really be like I can't read. I don't remember

1232
01:09:20,920 --> 01:09:23,200
Speaker 3: where I'm from.

1233
01:09:23,800 --> 01:09:26,439
Speaker 4: Fallen is the Denzel Washington movie I'm thinking of when

1234
01:09:26,439 --> 01:09:28,400
Speaker 4: that came out in nineteen ninety eight, So that could

1235
01:09:28,400 --> 01:09:31,879
Speaker 4: be your Demonic Rolling Stones double feature as well.

1236
01:09:31,920 --> 01:09:35,599
Speaker 3: I did not. No, I also feel like Scorsese uses

1237
01:09:35,640 --> 01:09:38,599
Speaker 3: a needle drop with that song in like four hundred

1238
01:09:38,600 --> 01:09:39,200
Speaker 3: of his movies.

1239
01:09:39,360 --> 01:09:43,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, nobody loves the Rolling Stones like Scorsese loves the

1240
01:09:43,120 --> 01:09:46,120
Speaker 4: Rolling Stones. I'm convinced that's true, and that's why he

1241
01:09:46,200 --> 01:09:49,920
Speaker 4: is Father Cannon And spoilers for the ending of Angel Heart,

1242
01:09:50,160 --> 01:09:53,559
Speaker 4: where by the way, de Niro is playing playing the

1243
01:09:53,560 --> 01:09:56,439
Speaker 4: devil but doing a Scorsese impression in order to play

1244
01:09:56,479 --> 01:09:59,599
Speaker 4: the devil. But it's like, what if Scorsese had long

1245
01:09:59,680 --> 01:10:02,840
Speaker 4: nail and it was always eating eggs. It's like, yeah,

1246
01:10:02,880 --> 01:10:03,320
Speaker 4: what if?

1247
01:10:03,400 --> 01:10:05,120
Speaker 3: What if? I'm in?

1248
01:10:05,479 --> 01:10:08,600
Speaker 4: And then it ends spoilers for Angel Heart, which is

1249
01:10:08,640 --> 01:10:09,759
Speaker 4: a very strange movie.

1250
01:10:09,840 --> 01:10:11,160
Speaker 3: I heard of it. Well.

1251
01:10:11,160 --> 01:10:14,360
Speaker 4: It ends with Mickey Rourke realizing that he's been had

1252
01:10:14,520 --> 01:10:16,400
Speaker 4: and that he just hasked to go to hell now,

1253
01:10:16,600 --> 01:10:18,599
Speaker 4: and he just goes to Hell and that's the end,

1254
01:10:18,640 --> 01:10:20,679
Speaker 4: and you're like, wow, I don't I mean, I didn't

1255
01:10:20,680 --> 01:10:24,080
Speaker 4: really like that character, but I don't really feel like.

1256
01:10:24,080 --> 01:10:25,559
Speaker 3: He deserves to go to hell.

1257
01:10:25,760 --> 01:10:27,920
Speaker 4: No, we're ending in hell. Okay, that's the end of

1258
01:10:27,960 --> 01:10:30,640
Speaker 4: the movie. And there's just like there's something to me

1259
01:10:30,760 --> 01:10:33,439
Speaker 4: that's so revealing about like these two endings where it's

1260
01:10:33,479 --> 01:10:36,320
Speaker 4: like you tangle with the devil, you don't really get

1261
01:10:36,320 --> 01:10:39,400
Speaker 4: the chance to make choices. He does a lot of speeches,

1262
01:10:39,520 --> 01:10:42,800
Speaker 4: and then at the end you either suffer all consequences

1263
01:10:42,880 --> 01:10:45,840
Speaker 4: or no consequences. Yeah, because it feels like it was

1264
01:10:45,880 --> 01:10:47,840
Speaker 4: never really about what you did. It's just about the

1265
01:10:47,880 --> 01:10:51,799
Speaker 4: sort of like feeling and masculinity of being damned.

1266
01:10:51,800 --> 01:10:54,519
Speaker 2: I don't know, right, Well, I guess if you're looking

1267
01:10:54,600 --> 01:10:57,080
Speaker 2: at the movie like it was all a dream, a

1268
01:10:57,200 --> 01:10:59,720
Speaker 2: vision of what his life could have been had he

1269
01:11:00,320 --> 01:11:01,960
Speaker 2: you know, sold out.

1270
01:11:01,880 --> 01:11:05,759
Speaker 3: He continue to do the job he does, right.

1271
01:11:05,960 --> 01:11:08,439
Speaker 2: Or is it that all of those events did happen

1272
01:11:08,840 --> 01:11:12,519
Speaker 2: and then he just gets like the biggest magic chance

1273
01:11:12,560 --> 01:11:16,920
Speaker 2: at redemption ever, which like he did not deserve. What

1274
01:11:17,040 --> 01:11:21,880
Speaker 2: has he done to earn any kind of redemption? Absolutely nothing.

1275
01:11:22,040 --> 01:11:22,680
Speaker 3: The moral of.

1276
01:11:22,640 --> 01:11:25,000
Speaker 4: This movie is if you die of suicide, you get

1277
01:11:25,040 --> 01:11:28,920
Speaker 4: a do over, which is not really what we needed

1278
01:11:28,960 --> 01:11:33,200
Speaker 4: to be telling people, And also he transforms into Jesus

1279
01:11:33,240 --> 01:11:35,160
Speaker 4: for a second.

1280
01:11:35,560 --> 01:11:39,040
Speaker 2: God, I keep missing Jesus, but with wings so like

1281
01:11:39,080 --> 01:11:39,719
Speaker 2: an angel.

1282
01:11:39,800 --> 01:11:42,080
Speaker 4: You can't take your eyes off this movie for a second.

1283
01:11:42,120 --> 01:11:43,000
Speaker 4: It's like a toddler.

1284
01:11:43,280 --> 01:11:48,120
Speaker 3: Some shit's gonna happen. It's very bizarre.

1285
01:11:49,280 --> 01:11:51,960
Speaker 2: Well, let's take a quick break and then we will

1286
01:11:52,120 --> 01:12:01,200
Speaker 2: come back to discuss.

1287
01:12:03,880 --> 01:12:08,760
Speaker 3: And we're back, Sarah. I would love to, if you're down,

1288
01:12:09,000 --> 01:12:13,200
Speaker 3: start this discussion with a little understanding of like the

1289
01:12:13,520 --> 01:12:17,960
Speaker 3: historical context that this movie was coming out into. What

1290
01:12:18,080 --> 01:12:20,479
Speaker 3: was the I know we've sort of been like talking

1291
01:12:20,560 --> 01:12:23,439
Speaker 3: around this for much of the episode, but like, what

1292
01:12:23,760 --> 01:12:28,200
Speaker 3: was the state of Satanic media in the late nineties.

1293
01:12:28,840 --> 01:12:31,200
Speaker 4: Oh wow, Yeah, I mean I feel like we had

1294
01:12:31,240 --> 01:12:33,800
Speaker 4: stuff and we can see it in this movie, kind

1295
01:12:33,800 --> 01:12:37,559
Speaker 4: of referencing the millennium approaching and asking this question of

1296
01:12:37,600 --> 01:12:40,920
Speaker 4: like what kind of a millennium are we going to have?

1297
01:12:41,680 --> 01:12:43,640
Speaker 4: Which is very interesting to try and think back to

1298
01:12:43,760 --> 01:12:47,559
Speaker 4: in a pre nine to eleven context, because it turned

1299
01:12:47,560 --> 01:12:49,880
Speaker 4: out that the kind of millennium the United States was

1300
01:12:49,920 --> 01:12:52,240
Speaker 4: going to have, at least so far, would have the

1301
01:12:52,280 --> 01:12:57,839
Speaker 4: tone set for us by turning an act of terrorism

1302
01:12:57,880 --> 01:13:02,479
Speaker 4: and tragedy into an opportunity to destabilize an entire region

1303
01:13:02,479 --> 01:13:05,520
Speaker 4: while searching for profit and claiming to be getting revenge

1304
01:13:05,600 --> 01:13:10,320
Speaker 4: while actually doing something unrelated and relying on the average Americans'

1305
01:13:10,680 --> 01:13:14,840
Speaker 4: misunderstandings about geography in order to you know, make a

1306
01:13:14,880 --> 01:13:18,800
Speaker 4: lot of money for Halliburton. So it feels like, interestingly,

1307
01:13:18,880 --> 01:13:22,080
Speaker 4: the kind of millennium that we started off with with

1308
01:13:22,280 --> 01:13:26,040
Speaker 4: our decision to start a war in the Middle East

1309
01:13:27,320 --> 01:13:29,960
Speaker 4: was one where we got to do anything we wanted

1310
01:13:29,960 --> 01:13:34,080
Speaker 4: by playing the victim. And I think that that's there's

1311
01:13:34,160 --> 01:13:38,000
Speaker 4: kind of an interesting It's just interesting to see this movie,

1312
01:13:38,040 --> 01:13:41,200
Speaker 4: I think partly because it feels like a combination of

1313
01:13:41,240 --> 01:13:45,200
Speaker 4: like these ideas that we had that I think America

1314
01:13:45,240 --> 01:13:47,960
Speaker 4: has historically used about Satan, where I think Satan is

1315
01:13:48,040 --> 01:13:50,360
Speaker 4: kind of the great American scapegoat, where like, if you're

1316
01:13:50,400 --> 01:13:56,080
Speaker 4: claiming to eradicate Satan, you can behave pretty horribly, but

1317
01:13:56,400 --> 01:13:58,080
Speaker 4: if you're claiming to be on the right side of

1318
01:13:58,080 --> 01:14:00,720
Speaker 4: a holy war, then whatever you do is pretty much justified,

1319
01:14:01,080 --> 01:14:03,719
Speaker 4: including genocide if you're talking about the way that North

1320
01:14:03,720 --> 01:14:08,120
Speaker 4: America was colonized. And then the very like robust nineties

1321
01:14:08,160 --> 01:14:11,639
Speaker 4: genre of the courtroom drama, which I think feels itself

1322
01:14:11,680 --> 01:14:16,479
Speaker 4: to be this very rational, academic kind of mode of

1323
01:14:16,520 --> 01:14:20,080
Speaker 4: storytelling that helps make people feel smarter for consuming, or

1324
01:14:20,080 --> 01:14:21,800
Speaker 4: at least I think that's part of the basis for

1325
01:14:21,840 --> 01:14:24,439
Speaker 4: the appeal, but really is able to tell these highly

1326
01:14:24,439 --> 01:14:28,920
Speaker 4: emotional stories that allow Americans to feel that the Constitution

1327
01:14:29,120 --> 01:14:32,200
Speaker 4: is often this annoying thing that gets in the way

1328
01:14:32,360 --> 01:14:36,599
Speaker 4: of punishing defendants a little bit too freely because it's

1329
01:14:36,640 --> 01:14:39,120
Speaker 4: politically popular and it's fun to be vindictive.

1330
01:14:41,160 --> 01:14:45,559
Speaker 3: Fuck, okay, Sarah, Sarah, you're so smart.

1331
01:14:45,920 --> 01:14:49,040
Speaker 4: And also we you know, Starbucks has like upholstered chairs.

1332
01:14:49,080 --> 01:14:51,720
Speaker 4: At this time, it's just like a wild time to

1333
01:14:51,760 --> 01:14:56,880
Speaker 4: be alive. I guess I want to impress you guys.

1334
01:14:56,920 --> 01:15:03,720
Speaker 3: You're so smart. No, I mean, yes, that's like so

1335
01:15:03,800 --> 01:15:07,080
Speaker 3: much to think about, but I agree, like because I

1336
01:15:07,160 --> 01:15:12,200
Speaker 3: what I was struggling with, I guess was not really

1337
01:15:12,240 --> 01:15:16,439
Speaker 3: putting myself in the audience for this, but like trying

1338
01:15:16,439 --> 01:15:19,360
Speaker 3: to understand what did the movie want you to walk

1339
01:15:19,400 --> 01:15:24,519
Speaker 3: away thinking, which I think is it's hard to know,

1340
01:15:25,360 --> 01:15:29,240
Speaker 3: mostly a craft issue that we don't know. But I'm curious.

1341
01:15:29,240 --> 01:15:31,599
Speaker 3: I just I'm like, I was really kind of racking

1342
01:15:31,640 --> 01:15:33,559
Speaker 3: my brain, and that's why I was looking at like

1343
01:15:33,560 --> 01:15:36,400
Speaker 3: adaptation changes and stuff like that to be like, huh,

1344
01:15:36,439 --> 01:15:42,080
Speaker 3: what did this very successful movie want us to leave

1345
01:15:42,200 --> 01:15:46,559
Speaker 3: thinking about? And I guess what? I could not figure

1346
01:15:46,560 --> 01:15:46,800
Speaker 3: it out.

1347
01:15:47,400 --> 01:15:52,200
Speaker 2: I still don't know. I have similar questions not only

1348
01:15:52,240 --> 01:15:56,920
Speaker 2: regarding the movie overall, the overall narrative and themes, but

1349
01:15:57,000 --> 01:16:01,080
Speaker 2: also as they relate to how we're supposed to view

1350
01:16:01,320 --> 01:16:04,439
Speaker 2: Mary Anne as a character, how we are supposed to

1351
01:16:04,479 --> 01:16:06,880
Speaker 2: be perceiving her, and whether or not we were supposed

1352
01:16:06,880 --> 01:16:11,559
Speaker 2: to be empathizing with her or what.

1353
01:16:11,640 --> 01:16:15,839
Speaker 3: Exactly My view was that will leving because I feel

1354
01:16:15,840 --> 01:16:20,000
Speaker 3: like I don't know. She's not a well written character, right,

1355
01:16:20,360 --> 01:16:23,160
Speaker 3: but she's better written than I thought she would be

1356
01:16:23,280 --> 01:16:25,280
Speaker 3: in that at least for a good chunk of the movie.

1357
01:16:25,320 --> 01:16:29,000
Speaker 3: The things she does have narrative consequence, which most movie

1358
01:16:29,040 --> 01:16:31,320
Speaker 3: wives that is just not the case. I felt like

1359
01:16:31,400 --> 01:16:35,400
Speaker 3: we started by empathizing with her and then we end

1360
01:16:35,439 --> 01:16:37,840
Speaker 3: by pitying her, which is, like I thought, like a

1361
01:16:37,960 --> 01:16:40,200
Speaker 3: very unpleasant turn of events.

1362
01:16:41,080 --> 01:16:46,480
Speaker 2: That plus I well, because like she starts out, especially

1363
01:16:46,560 --> 01:16:49,720
Speaker 2: upon them moving to New York and Kevin accepting this

1364
01:16:49,800 --> 01:16:51,960
Speaker 2: job and they move into this big, beautiful apartment and

1365
01:16:52,000 --> 01:16:57,200
Speaker 2: now she's tasked because she's the his wife who has

1366
01:16:57,240 --> 01:16:59,679
Speaker 2: given up her job. I think her job in Florida

1367
01:16:59,800 --> 01:17:03,720
Speaker 2: was she was selling repossessed cars.

1368
01:17:04,120 --> 01:17:06,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it was like she was doing something

1369
01:17:06,080 --> 01:17:07,479
Speaker 4: alone shark related.

1370
01:17:07,520 --> 01:17:10,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, so she was also doing both kind of dirt bags,

1371
01:17:10,120 --> 01:17:12,360
Speaker 3: but like you know, she had a she was a

1372
01:17:12,400 --> 01:17:14,479
Speaker 3: career dirt bag, and he took that from her.

1373
01:17:14,720 --> 01:17:16,559
Speaker 4: Get a cell phone and a little suit, and she

1374
01:17:16,720 --> 01:17:18,799
Speaker 4: was like doing business on the side of a highway,

1375
01:17:18,840 --> 01:17:22,160
Speaker 4: which is just such a nineties feminism girl boss thing

1376
01:17:22,160 --> 01:17:22,519
Speaker 4: to show.

1377
01:17:22,960 --> 01:17:25,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like when Julia Robberts knows how to fix

1378
01:17:25,160 --> 01:17:27,559
Speaker 3: a car and you're supposed to be like and you're like,

1379
01:17:27,640 --> 01:17:29,120
Speaker 3: they really do do something there.

1380
01:17:30,800 --> 01:17:35,040
Speaker 2: She moved to New York and she starts. The two

1381
01:17:35,080 --> 01:17:38,720
Speaker 2: things we know about her at that point are that

1382
01:17:38,920 --> 01:17:44,599
Speaker 2: she wants desperately to have a baby and she doesn't

1383
01:17:44,640 --> 01:17:48,000
Speaker 2: know how to decorate her apartment. And we're like, okay,

1384
01:17:48,080 --> 01:17:49,760
Speaker 2: can we get maybe a third thing?

1385
01:17:50,080 --> 01:17:53,559
Speaker 3: Like what see? I felt like the apartments of it's

1386
01:17:53,560 --> 01:17:56,280
Speaker 3: super clunky. Like I do feel what they're trying to

1387
01:17:56,320 --> 01:17:59,280
Speaker 3: do there is like she's a society wife now and

1388
01:17:59,320 --> 01:18:02,880
Speaker 3: there's like class tension between her and everyone's surrounded by

1389
01:18:03,720 --> 01:18:06,320
Speaker 3: and it does pay off on that, but like for

1390
01:18:06,400 --> 01:18:09,559
Speaker 3: her again, like I just I don't know, Like there

1391
01:18:09,560 --> 01:18:11,799
Speaker 3: were things that I'm like, Okay, it's being done badly,

1392
01:18:11,840 --> 01:18:14,200
Speaker 3: but I think I get what they're trying to do,

1393
01:18:14,800 --> 01:18:18,120
Speaker 3: But this I don't know, Like just like the same

1394
01:18:18,160 --> 01:18:20,479
Speaker 3: thing with Jackie, who at first I was like, Okay,

1395
01:18:20,560 --> 01:18:24,160
Speaker 3: is this going to be a super prescriptive black best

1396
01:18:24,200 --> 01:18:27,040
Speaker 3: friend character that we saw so much throughout the nineties,

1397
01:18:27,840 --> 01:18:32,040
Speaker 3: And the answer is yes and also opposite, like I

1398
01:18:32,040 --> 01:18:34,720
Speaker 3: don't know, and also she's a demon, so yeah, I

1399
01:18:36,400 --> 01:18:40,000
Speaker 3: just don't think Jackie should have been either al Pacino

1400
01:18:40,200 --> 01:18:43,800
Speaker 3: nor a demon, because it does end up feeling like

1401
01:18:44,320 --> 01:18:47,920
Speaker 3: Mariann almost has someone to talk to, and I feel

1402
01:18:47,960 --> 01:18:50,360
Speaker 3: like it would have been a more interesting and cohesive

1403
01:18:50,439 --> 01:18:55,880
Speaker 3: choice to write Jackie an actual character and have them

1404
01:18:55,920 --> 01:18:59,880
Speaker 3: like going through this together or like, I don't know,

1405
01:19:00,200 --> 01:19:03,280
Speaker 3: like it just felt so clunky the way that like

1406
01:19:03,760 --> 01:19:06,679
Speaker 3: there were elements introduced about mary Anne that like didn't

1407
01:19:06,720 --> 01:19:09,439
Speaker 3: pay off or like went away because they're like she's

1408
01:19:09,920 --> 01:19:12,120
Speaker 3: going mad kind of thing.

1409
01:19:12,600 --> 01:19:15,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, Oh my gosh, I've there's so much to

1410
01:19:15,479 --> 01:19:20,599
Speaker 2: unpack here. There's a scene where Marianne and Jackie are

1411
01:19:20,760 --> 01:19:23,720
Speaker 2: talking and mary Anne is trying to adjust to this

1412
01:19:23,840 --> 01:19:26,960
Speaker 2: new life she had been accustomed to working. She says

1413
01:19:27,000 --> 01:19:29,720
Speaker 2: something like, this is the first time since I was

1414
01:19:29,800 --> 01:19:32,639
Speaker 2: thirteen years old where I haven't had at least one job.

1415
01:19:33,040 --> 01:19:35,640
Speaker 2: She liked to be out in the workforce, and she

1416
01:19:35,880 --> 01:19:38,559
Speaker 2: liked to be occupied with something that wasn't just like

1417
01:19:38,680 --> 01:19:43,880
Speaker 2: domestic tasks and decorating her house. So she's like lamenting

1418
01:19:43,920 --> 01:19:48,200
Speaker 2: about this to Jackie. Jackie's just like, what are you

1419
01:19:48,280 --> 01:19:52,080
Speaker 2: complaining about. Our husbands are rich and just enjoy the money.

1420
01:19:52,160 --> 01:19:54,840
Speaker 2: Let's go shopping and drink chardonnay all day.

1421
01:19:55,000 --> 01:19:57,280
Speaker 3: And you're like, wait, she's being written so poorly. And

1422
01:19:57,280 --> 01:19:59,960
Speaker 3: then later it's like, no, we rude her mad on purpose.

1423
01:20:00,160 --> 01:20:03,360
Speaker 3: She's the consumption demon. You're like, what.

1424
01:20:04,080 --> 01:20:09,080
Speaker 2: Right, And it's evil to get any sort of cosmetic surgery,

1425
01:20:09,600 --> 01:20:14,280
Speaker 2: And but she's written to be this like very you know, vapid, vein,

1426
01:20:15,640 --> 01:20:18,639
Speaker 2: like spending money frivolously kind of person.

1427
01:20:19,320 --> 01:20:23,479
Speaker 3: Well, it's just like the very like gendered way that

1428
01:20:23,600 --> 01:20:27,920
Speaker 3: like sin is presented to where it's like everyone it's

1429
01:20:27,960 --> 01:20:31,519
Speaker 3: not like the women are worse than the it's but

1430
01:20:31,600 --> 01:20:34,040
Speaker 3: it's like they're they're quote aqut bad in these very

1431
01:20:34,040 --> 01:20:37,920
Speaker 3: stereotypical ways where it's like their sins are vanity and

1432
01:20:38,000 --> 01:20:42,120
Speaker 3: their sins are like consumption, and then men's sins are

1433
01:20:42,320 --> 01:20:45,920
Speaker 3: like greed and artisty like, and there's really no overlap

1434
01:20:46,040 --> 01:20:50,000
Speaker 3: except for the character of Pam. Pam is the only

1435
01:20:50,080 --> 01:20:52,600
Speaker 3: woman who has a career, and I do feel like

1436
01:20:52,640 --> 01:20:55,639
Speaker 3: we are allowed to well, I guess that, so does

1437
01:20:56,640 --> 01:21:00,479
Speaker 3: what's her name, missus the devil Crystabella, Yeah, Chris Stabella

1438
01:21:00,640 --> 01:21:03,280
Speaker 3: and pasta or whatever.

1439
01:21:05,520 --> 01:21:13,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, oh yeah, when you're here, your family at

1440
01:21:13,080 --> 01:21:17,519
Speaker 2: the the Devil's Garden, So that's kind of a separate thing.

1441
01:21:17,600 --> 01:21:23,040
Speaker 2: And then as Marianne is observing all of these sinful

1442
01:21:23,120 --> 01:21:26,920
Speaker 2: women and trying to confide in Kevin to be like,

1443
01:21:27,760 --> 01:21:31,120
Speaker 2: things are really weird, things are very wrong. I don't

1444
01:21:31,240 --> 01:21:34,320
Speaker 2: like our new lives. It feels like we're doing something

1445
01:21:34,520 --> 01:21:37,360
Speaker 2: wrong and I'm seeing demons and blah blah blah, and

1446
01:21:37,680 --> 01:21:43,000
Speaker 2: he is, you know, again, constantly dismissing her and gaslighting

1447
01:21:43,000 --> 01:21:47,200
Speaker 2: her and all of that. What I can't really figure

1448
01:21:47,200 --> 01:21:49,280
Speaker 2: out is if the again, if the movie wants us

1449
01:21:49,320 --> 01:21:53,200
Speaker 2: to empathize with her, or if it wants us to

1450
01:21:53,479 --> 01:21:57,680
Speaker 2: think that she's being hysterical and getting in the way

1451
01:21:57,680 --> 01:22:01,479
Speaker 2: of Kevin's success or a little bit of both. It

1452
01:22:01,760 --> 01:22:04,719
Speaker 2: almost feels to me like, yeah, we're supposed to empathize

1453
01:22:04,720 --> 01:22:08,679
Speaker 2: with her a bit, But also it felt as though,

1454
01:22:08,680 --> 01:22:10,960
Speaker 2: and I haven't read anything to this effect, so I

1455
01:22:11,000 --> 01:22:13,160
Speaker 2: can't confirm this, but it almost felt as though the

1456
01:22:13,240 --> 01:22:17,160
Speaker 2: director was like, Hey, really ramp up the hysterics here,

1457
01:22:17,479 --> 01:22:23,520
Speaker 2: Charlie's so that we feel like she's almost a foil

1458
01:22:24,040 --> 01:22:28,040
Speaker 2: to Kevin. Because there's that scene where she's she's in

1459
01:22:28,080 --> 01:22:31,120
Speaker 2: the church and she's crying and she's wrapped in a

1460
01:22:31,160 --> 01:22:33,920
Speaker 2: blanket and then she like throws it off of her

1461
01:22:34,000 --> 01:22:38,679
Speaker 2: and she's naked and crying and screaming. Yeah, And I'm like.

1462
01:22:39,160 --> 01:22:42,200
Speaker 3: What my like feeling on her is that like we

1463
01:22:42,320 --> 01:22:44,400
Speaker 3: are supposed to think she's telling the truth, because we

1464
01:22:44,439 --> 01:22:46,760
Speaker 3: are given every indication that she's telling the truth. Like

1465
01:22:46,760 --> 01:22:49,480
Speaker 3: if we thought we were supposed to not find her credible,

1466
01:22:49,680 --> 01:22:53,760
Speaker 3: we wouldn't see what she sees, right, And so like,

1467
01:22:54,280 --> 01:22:56,840
Speaker 3: I don't think that we're supposed to not believe her

1468
01:22:56,960 --> 01:22:58,840
Speaker 3: or I don't know. I guess I didn't see it

1469
01:22:58,880 --> 01:23:01,040
Speaker 3: as like we're not supposed to hear as a foil.

1470
01:23:01,080 --> 01:23:02,840
Speaker 3: It just felt like she was this kind of like

1471
01:23:03,800 --> 01:23:07,479
Speaker 3: stand in for virtue in a virtueless world. It's like

1472
01:23:07,920 --> 01:23:11,519
Speaker 3: her and the mom that they're like, I don't know,

1473
01:23:11,600 --> 01:23:14,400
Speaker 3: like they're the only virtuous way to live is to

1474
01:23:14,479 --> 01:23:17,479
Speaker 3: move back to Florida and go to church for like

1475
01:23:17,560 --> 01:23:18,639
Speaker 3: twenty hours a day.

1476
01:23:18,920 --> 01:23:21,880
Speaker 4: Right, and it quite your original profession that you were

1477
01:23:21,920 --> 01:23:25,559
Speaker 4: going to use to improve your family's financial situation and

1478
01:23:26,000 --> 01:23:28,280
Speaker 4: become a peanut farmer or whatever.

1479
01:23:28,880 --> 01:23:30,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, right, Yeah, I don't.

1480
01:23:30,720 --> 01:23:33,720
Speaker 2: Know if it's because we're also in the middle of

1481
01:23:33,760 --> 01:23:37,720
Speaker 2: prepping for an episode on Don't Worry Darling, which is

1482
01:23:37,880 --> 01:23:39,880
Speaker 2: also a movie about and.

1483
01:23:39,840 --> 01:23:42,360
Speaker 3: Also very Rosemary's Baby coated.

1484
01:23:42,520 --> 01:23:47,000
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, for sure, but similar to Devil's Advocate. Don't

1485
01:23:47,000 --> 01:23:51,080
Speaker 2: Worry Darling is a movie about a woman who starts

1486
01:23:51,120 --> 01:23:54,360
Speaker 2: to suspect something is very wrong with her husband's job

1487
01:23:54,560 --> 01:23:57,360
Speaker 2: and her husband's boss, and she tries to speak up

1488
01:23:57,400 --> 01:23:59,720
Speaker 2: about it. But that movie. Not to say that that

1489
01:23:59,760 --> 01:24:02,840
Speaker 2: movie is like awesome and perfect or anything like that,

1490
01:24:03,280 --> 01:24:06,000
Speaker 2: but at least it's told from the woman's point of view.

1491
01:24:06,680 --> 01:24:10,280
Speaker 4: So mag Fenf's eighty percent of Don't Worry Darling was

1492
01:24:10,320 --> 01:24:12,840
Speaker 4: from the perspective of Harry Styles, I would not have

1493
01:24:12,920 --> 01:24:14,040
Speaker 4: made it right.

1494
01:24:14,760 --> 01:24:17,040
Speaker 2: But I guess my point is, I just it felt

1495
01:24:17,040 --> 01:24:21,360
Speaker 2: to me like we are supposed to empathize and or

1496
01:24:22,240 --> 01:24:28,360
Speaker 2: pity the Marian character. But also I feel like the

1497
01:24:28,400 --> 01:24:33,080
Speaker 2: movie is reveling in and exploiting the idea of a

1498
01:24:33,120 --> 01:24:38,160
Speaker 2: woman's hysteria, for sure, And that's part of the the

1499
01:24:38,280 --> 01:24:43,200
Speaker 2: like spookiness of this movie and the tension of this movie.

1500
01:24:43,080 --> 01:24:45,920
Speaker 4: When it feels very down in Betty Draper, you know,

1501
01:24:45,960 --> 01:24:49,080
Speaker 4: and it feels like kind of that also, like to

1502
01:24:49,120 --> 01:24:52,080
Speaker 4: the extent that there is a coherent theme happening. And

1503
01:24:52,240 --> 01:24:55,760
Speaker 4: I may be too generous and seeing this in it,

1504
01:24:55,800 --> 01:24:59,720
Speaker 4: but it feels like it's you know, kind of you

1505
01:24:59,800 --> 01:25:02,559
Speaker 4: can I feel the echoes at least of media about

1506
01:25:02,600 --> 01:25:05,559
Speaker 4: the kind of long lineage of men who have signed

1507
01:25:05,600 --> 01:25:11,200
Speaker 4: on to value their relationships with scary mentoring men at

1508
01:25:11,240 --> 01:25:16,519
Speaker 4: work over what it's doing to their families, and the

1509
01:25:16,640 --> 01:25:20,120
Speaker 4: kind of like I don't know, parable of the New

1510
01:25:20,200 --> 01:25:21,519
Speaker 4: York professional class.

1511
01:25:22,520 --> 01:25:26,439
Speaker 3: Yeah that's true. Yeah, I've like, I don't know, it's

1512
01:25:26,439 --> 01:25:29,080
Speaker 3: so incoherent that it's hard Like I feel like she

1513
01:25:29,280 --> 01:25:33,760
Speaker 3: is I mean, ultimately, she is defined and happening in

1514
01:25:33,800 --> 01:25:39,040
Speaker 3: reaction to his narrative, right, So it's it's weird because

1515
01:25:39,040 --> 01:25:41,400
Speaker 3: there are like technically a lot of scenes that we

1516
01:25:41,400 --> 01:25:46,200
Speaker 3: see from her point of view, but it's never like,

1517
01:25:46,600 --> 01:25:49,080
Speaker 3: I mean, her whole story is happening in reaction to

1518
01:25:49,120 --> 01:25:53,120
Speaker 3: his by design, And so it's like, I don't know

1519
01:25:53,200 --> 01:25:55,640
Speaker 3: it's true, and I feel bad because it's like Shirley's

1520
01:25:55,800 --> 01:26:01,200
Speaker 3: is doing her best with what she's given, but it's

1521
01:26:01,640 --> 01:26:03,559
Speaker 3: but it's again, it's like it almost felt like a

1522
01:26:03,600 --> 01:26:05,760
Speaker 3: fake out that they gave her women to talk to,

1523
01:26:05,960 --> 01:26:10,280
Speaker 3: but like actually they didn't. Yeah, and so I don't know,

1524
01:26:10,320 --> 01:26:14,840
Speaker 3: like there's a cooler version of that character who it's

1525
01:26:14,880 --> 01:26:16,760
Speaker 3: like in the same way that you see Keiani's character

1526
01:26:16,880 --> 01:26:20,559
Speaker 3: get more and more depraved, even though he also starts

1527
01:26:20,640 --> 01:26:22,479
Speaker 3: that way, So you're like, what is the progression here?

1528
01:26:23,920 --> 01:26:28,200
Speaker 3: Like you also see her become more and more like

1529
01:26:28,400 --> 01:26:31,920
Speaker 3: helpless in a way that I don't know what they're

1530
01:26:31,960 --> 01:26:33,040
Speaker 3: trying to say.

1531
01:26:33,000 --> 01:26:36,480
Speaker 4: And like really quickly in kind of a Victorian femininity

1532
01:26:36,520 --> 01:26:38,800
Speaker 4: approach where it's like, you know, most women are four

1533
01:26:38,880 --> 01:26:42,000
Speaker 4: or five bad dreams away from snapping, and it's like

1534
01:26:42,400 --> 01:26:47,600
Speaker 4: we mental health science has come really quite far in

1535
01:26:47,640 --> 01:26:49,719
Speaker 4: the past one hundred years, not as far as it could,

1536
01:26:49,760 --> 01:26:50,760
Speaker 4: but you know, or.

1537
01:26:50,880 --> 01:26:53,479
Speaker 3: Like you're saying, Kaitlin like the hysteric woman trope, where

1538
01:26:53,880 --> 01:26:57,439
Speaker 3: like it's just it's so like inconsistent and weird because

1539
01:26:57,439 --> 01:27:00,880
Speaker 3: I did, like, you know whatever, I didn't like like

1540
01:27:00,960 --> 01:27:04,719
Speaker 3: her character like wow, so compelling, but but like going

1541
01:27:04,760 --> 01:27:08,320
Speaker 3: back to like the beginning where there is a clear

1542
01:27:08,720 --> 01:27:11,800
Speaker 3: element of like how she feels about stuff and like

1543
01:27:12,160 --> 01:27:15,680
Speaker 3: she feels out of place, and like that is interesting,

1544
01:27:15,760 --> 01:27:17,559
Speaker 3: Like she's a total fish out of water, and we

1545
01:27:17,640 --> 01:27:23,320
Speaker 3: know why you can almost understand like why she ends

1546
01:27:23,400 --> 01:27:26,320
Speaker 3: up like being kind of charmed by the al Pacino character,

1547
01:27:26,360 --> 01:27:27,960
Speaker 3: because first of all, he's the devil that's kind of

1548
01:27:27,960 --> 01:27:32,400
Speaker 3: his trademark, but also that like she specifically tells Kevin

1549
01:27:32,840 --> 01:27:35,720
Speaker 3: going into the party, please don't leave me alone and uncomfortable.

1550
01:27:35,800 --> 01:27:38,120
Speaker 3: He leaves her alone immediately, and we do see that

1551
01:27:38,160 --> 01:27:41,120
Speaker 3: bear through. She has an Alexander Petrowski well it's like

1552
01:27:41,160 --> 01:27:43,080
Speaker 3: and she's super mad at him. Afterwards, she makes him

1553
01:27:43,080 --> 01:27:45,400
Speaker 3: sleep on the couch and she ends up talking with

1554
01:27:45,439 --> 01:27:47,519
Speaker 3: al Pacino, who is like the only person at the

1555
01:27:47,520 --> 01:27:50,759
Speaker 3: party who isn't making her uncomfortable and it's like, that's

1556
01:27:50,800 --> 01:27:54,160
Speaker 3: wild because if he's doing she'll be making her so uncomfortable. Well,

1557
01:27:54,160 --> 01:27:54,839
Speaker 3: because he's.

1558
01:27:54,760 --> 01:27:58,720
Speaker 2: Like, your hair like shit. He's like nagging her, your

1559
01:27:58,760 --> 01:28:03,040
Speaker 2: hair looks like shit. But he's like doing it sensually,

1560
01:28:03,280 --> 01:28:05,560
Speaker 2: question mark, And I guess she's.

1561
01:28:05,320 --> 01:28:07,320
Speaker 3: Like just doing the devil thing.

1562
01:28:07,720 --> 01:28:10,600
Speaker 4: And like heures how annoying lawyers are at parties. You

1563
01:28:10,640 --> 01:28:13,120
Speaker 4: know that if the devil starts snagging you, you're like, oh,

1564
01:28:13,160 --> 01:28:13,919
Speaker 4: thank god.

1565
01:28:14,360 --> 01:28:19,760
Speaker 3: Right, You're like, this is the most tolerable person here. Yeah,

1566
01:28:19,840 --> 01:28:24,040
Speaker 3: I don't know, Like I Marianne, I think is an

1567
01:28:24,120 --> 01:28:27,600
Speaker 3: interesting character, which is like what makes it such a

1568
01:28:27,640 --> 01:28:30,840
Speaker 3: shame that they sort of reduce her to this very

1569
01:28:31,000 --> 01:28:35,200
Speaker 3: tropy thing, for sure, and the end that the fact that,

1570
01:28:35,200 --> 01:28:39,720
Speaker 3: and it's like I appreciate that whatever. It's like, when

1571
01:28:39,720 --> 01:28:41,479
Speaker 3: are we going to have kids? Are we going to

1572
01:28:41,560 --> 01:28:43,600
Speaker 3: have kids? Is a big narrative in a lot of

1573
01:28:43,600 --> 01:28:47,040
Speaker 3: people's marriage, but it also feels very like trite to

1574
01:28:47,120 --> 01:28:48,960
Speaker 3: be like, and all she wants to do is have

1575
01:28:49,000 --> 01:28:51,360
Speaker 3: a baby, But don't worry. It's the nineties and we

1576
01:28:51,400 --> 01:28:53,480
Speaker 3: know that we have to do a little bit of feminism.

1577
01:28:53,560 --> 01:28:56,840
Speaker 3: So she used to have a job and she misses it,

1578
01:28:57,280 --> 01:29:02,000
Speaker 3: so you're like, cool, it does feel yeah, Calen.

1579
01:29:02,000 --> 01:29:03,680
Speaker 4: The more I think about it, it feels like the kind

1580
01:29:03,680 --> 01:29:07,120
Speaker 4: of Victorian hysterical woman where she also is like the

1581
01:29:07,160 --> 01:29:10,400
Speaker 4: implication is kind of that she's becoming mentally ill because

1582
01:29:10,400 --> 01:29:13,280
Speaker 4: of all the evil around her. Oh yeah, you know,

1583
01:29:13,560 --> 01:29:16,280
Speaker 4: and this idea of like the Victorian woman as like

1584
01:29:16,560 --> 01:29:21,120
Speaker 4: both weaker and more virtuous than men, and therefore, like,

1585
01:29:21,760 --> 01:29:24,080
Speaker 4: you know, if you're doing something, if you work for

1586
01:29:24,160 --> 01:29:27,400
Speaker 4: the devil, your wife's gonna get sick, right.

1587
01:29:27,439 --> 01:29:33,000
Speaker 2: Well. Then it's also if I was observing something that

1588
01:29:33,120 --> 01:29:35,800
Speaker 2: I thought was wrong or that seemed evil, and I

1589
01:29:35,880 --> 01:29:38,040
Speaker 2: was trying to tell my partner about it, and he

1590
01:29:38,160 --> 01:29:41,760
Speaker 2: was constantly dismissing me, it, ignoring me and gaslighting me,

1591
01:29:42,280 --> 01:29:46,000
Speaker 2: I would grow increasingly frustrated, and I would also start

1592
01:29:46,760 --> 01:29:50,200
Speaker 2: yelling and screaming and crying. Yeah, and so her behavior

1593
01:29:50,320 --> 01:29:54,640
Speaker 2: is not unjustified. It's just that the movie is like,

1594
01:29:54,920 --> 01:30:00,200
Speaker 2: and oh, but she she's so But I don't even

1595
01:30:00,240 --> 01:30:01,439
Speaker 2: know what the movie is trying to say.

1596
01:30:01,479 --> 01:30:02,920
Speaker 8: I don't know because it's like that I don't think

1597
01:30:03,040 --> 01:30:06,120
Speaker 8: like the movie like the movie can't have it's trying

1598
01:30:06,120 --> 01:30:08,639
Speaker 8: to have it always too because they're also styling her

1599
01:30:08,720 --> 01:30:10,719
Speaker 8: like a woman who's gone mad, where it like looks

1600
01:30:10,720 --> 01:30:14,000
Speaker 8: like she's two black eyes from crying at all times

1601
01:30:14,040 --> 01:30:16,080
Speaker 8: and shit like that, and like right.

1602
01:30:15,880 --> 01:30:19,760
Speaker 4: But we also know what she's saying is true, right,

1603
01:30:20,280 --> 01:30:23,240
Speaker 4: and that these are like correct visions. There aren't visions exactly,

1604
01:30:23,280 --> 01:30:26,880
Speaker 4: they're like she's seeing correctly what's going on. But then

1605
01:30:26,920 --> 01:30:31,080
Speaker 4: she paints their apartment to look like a global village cafe,

1606
01:30:31,960 --> 01:30:33,559
Speaker 4: so that implies that she's losing it.

1607
01:30:33,960 --> 01:30:37,560
Speaker 3: She has she has virtue vision, I think is like ultimately,

1608
01:30:37,680 --> 01:30:40,640
Speaker 3: she's she has virtuous goggles on in all times, and

1609
01:30:40,720 --> 01:30:45,439
Speaker 3: Keanu does not have virtuous goggles on, and it kills

1610
01:30:45,560 --> 01:30:48,479
Speaker 3: her question mark like, yeah, I don't, I don't know.

1611
01:30:48,680 --> 01:30:52,880
Speaker 3: I wish that she had gone home with his mother.

1612
01:30:53,280 --> 01:30:56,000
Speaker 4: That would be nice, That's what I wish it had happened. Yeah,

1613
01:30:56,040 --> 01:30:58,439
Speaker 4: And that's a nice performance from Ju to th Ivy

1614
01:30:59,640 --> 01:31:03,120
Speaker 4: as his tent revival type mom. I feel like, ultimately

1615
01:31:03,120 --> 01:31:05,720
Speaker 4: the only character who this movie really cares about is

1616
01:31:05,720 --> 01:31:10,840
Speaker 4: the devil, and yeah, that's you know, it's a fun devil.

1617
01:31:10,920 --> 01:31:12,040
Speaker 4: They did get with the devil.

1618
01:31:12,760 --> 01:31:15,160
Speaker 3: I do think, yeah, use that would be a fun

1619
01:31:15,680 --> 01:31:18,560
Speaker 3: I don't know enough. Do you have a favorite portrayal

1620
01:31:18,600 --> 01:31:21,760
Speaker 3: of the devil? Sarah as kind of a devilhead yourself,

1621
01:31:22,280 --> 01:31:24,839
Speaker 3: So yeah, I put this in the series.

1622
01:31:25,840 --> 01:31:28,920
Speaker 4: One of my all time favorite devil portrayals is a

1623
01:31:28,960 --> 01:31:31,839
Speaker 4: Saturday Night Live sketch that's a parody of the People's

1624
01:31:31,840 --> 01:31:35,519
Speaker 4: Court where John Lovett's is the devil and he's trying

1625
01:31:35,560 --> 01:31:39,600
Speaker 4: to get damages from the plaintiffs.

1626
01:31:39,600 --> 01:31:40,400
Speaker 3: I are.

1627
01:31:41,680 --> 01:31:43,760
Speaker 4: One of them is Rosanna Arcat, who must have been

1628
01:31:43,840 --> 01:31:47,800
Speaker 4: hosting that week because she sold her soul in exchange

1629
01:31:48,000 --> 01:31:53,479
Speaker 4: for like three professional hairdryers and stuff, and so it's

1630
01:31:53,520 --> 01:31:56,519
Speaker 4: the devil trying to get the People's Court to side

1631
01:31:56,520 --> 01:31:59,879
Speaker 4: with him for like, you know, the three thousand dollars

1632
01:32:00,040 --> 01:32:03,000
Speaker 4: that he invested in her hair business and exchanged for

1633
01:32:03,040 --> 01:32:05,360
Speaker 4: her soul that she then wasn't able to make work.

1634
01:32:06,080 --> 01:32:08,400
Speaker 4: And I feel like that's it, Like it feels like,

1635
01:32:09,000 --> 01:32:13,479
Speaker 4: you know, the devil. I really like depictions where you

1636
01:32:13,600 --> 01:32:17,080
Speaker 4: have kind of like a funny, low stakes devil who's

1637
01:32:17,360 --> 01:32:20,360
Speaker 4: having a hard time on daytime TV, because I feel like,

1638
01:32:21,080 --> 01:32:24,559
Speaker 4: in actual execution, it all seems a bit low rent.

1639
01:32:24,880 --> 01:32:27,240
Speaker 4: You know that you have to like go soul by

1640
01:32:27,360 --> 01:32:32,280
Speaker 4: soul trying to get people to sign bad contracts, and

1641
01:32:33,640 --> 01:32:36,200
Speaker 4: of course the association of the devil with contract laws

1642
01:32:36,280 --> 01:32:38,920
Speaker 4: relatively modern, but I mean I really like that we've

1643
01:32:38,960 --> 01:32:41,880
Speaker 4: taken it and like, you know that the devil and

1644
01:32:41,960 --> 01:32:44,840
Speaker 4: lawyers do go together and it's about you know, being

1645
01:32:44,840 --> 01:32:47,519
Speaker 4: pressured into signing a bad contract and a lot of

1646
01:32:47,280 --> 01:32:50,000
Speaker 4: our modern depictions. I also like, I saw a bit

1647
01:32:50,040 --> 01:32:52,479
Speaker 4: dazzled at a young age, and we'll always have a

1648
01:32:52,479 --> 01:32:55,040
Speaker 4: soft spot for that one. For the Elizabeth Hurley Devil.

1649
01:32:55,439 --> 01:32:58,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm a fan of the Elizabeth Hurley Devil. I

1650
01:32:58,360 --> 01:33:02,120
Speaker 3: mean just one styling alone, exactly. Yeah, So I feel like,

1651
01:33:02,160 --> 01:33:05,040
Speaker 3: I like, I always love a comedy devil. And then

1652
01:33:05,080 --> 01:33:09,280
Speaker 3: if I'm watching a horror movie where it's like, actually

1653
01:33:09,360 --> 01:33:14,080
Speaker 3: the villain is the devil, I'm like, whatever, you know,

1654
01:33:14,400 --> 01:33:17,639
Speaker 3: because I feel like the things that like I saw

1655
01:33:17,800 --> 01:33:20,559
Speaker 3: I was watching I don't know, like some TikTok about

1656
01:33:20,560 --> 01:33:23,920
Speaker 3: Hereditary the other day where I saw a position I like,

1657
01:33:24,080 --> 01:33:27,680
Speaker 3: surprisingly don't see people state that often, but which I

1658
01:33:27,760 --> 01:33:30,639
Speaker 3: really agree with where somebody was like, you know, if

1659
01:33:30,640 --> 01:33:34,479
Speaker 3: only they hadn't had spoilers for Hereditary, if only they

1660
01:33:34,520 --> 01:33:38,400
Speaker 3: hadn't had the whole like Satan worshiping aspect uncovered in

1661
01:33:38,439 --> 01:33:42,200
Speaker 3: Hereditary because like, yeah, we thought that as well, right,

1662
01:33:42,320 --> 01:33:45,639
Speaker 3: because like the extreme bleakness of just the interpersonal stuff

1663
01:33:46,200 --> 01:33:48,719
Speaker 3: and the depiction of like a family being really horrible

1664
01:33:48,760 --> 01:33:51,799
Speaker 3: to each other while grieving is so scary.

1665
01:33:51,960 --> 01:33:55,400
Speaker 4: And then you bring in the devil and you're like, ugh, whatever,

1666
01:33:55,920 --> 01:33:57,000
Speaker 4: you know's a cop out.

1667
01:33:57,120 --> 01:33:58,760
Speaker 3: The Devil's usually a cop out.

1668
01:33:58,880 --> 01:34:01,639
Speaker 4: I feel like, yeah, I feel like the devil usually

1669
01:34:01,680 --> 01:34:04,839
Speaker 4: makes things less scary. So I love a good comedy devil.

1670
01:34:04,960 --> 01:34:07,240
Speaker 4: I mean, I think Flanders as the Devil, and tree

1671
01:34:07,280 --> 01:34:11,200
Speaker 4: House of Horror is also pretty iconic. Do either of

1672
01:34:11,240 --> 01:34:13,400
Speaker 4: you have favorite devil depictions?

1673
01:34:15,760 --> 01:34:16,559
Speaker 2: I'd have to know.

1674
01:34:16,680 --> 01:34:19,879
Speaker 3: I didn't. I feel like I didn't see the Dazzled

1675
01:34:19,920 --> 01:34:23,080
Speaker 3: until I watch it for this show. I don't know.

1676
01:34:23,160 --> 01:34:25,920
Speaker 3: I think the only devil depiction, oh, you know what,

1677
01:34:26,360 --> 01:34:28,720
Speaker 3: the Cow and Chicken devil, the little cartoon devil that

1678
01:34:28,760 --> 01:34:29,719
Speaker 3: bounces on his own.

1679
01:34:29,760 --> 01:34:33,000
Speaker 4: But I don't think I remember I remember cowing Chicken.

1680
01:34:33,040 --> 01:34:35,400
Speaker 4: I don't remember that devil. I got to check that out.

1681
01:34:35,600 --> 01:34:38,000
Speaker 3: They had a devil. Yeah, the cartoon network devil is

1682
01:34:38,040 --> 01:34:42,000
Speaker 3: probably my favorite devil. But there you go. But enough

1683
01:34:42,040 --> 01:34:46,919
Speaker 3: about the devil. Let's talk about how race is depicted

1684
01:34:46,960 --> 01:34:50,120
Speaker 3: in this movie. Oh yeah, it was the nineties, so

1685
01:34:50,280 --> 01:34:53,280
Speaker 3: you know, I'm sure they did a good job. This

1686
01:34:53,360 --> 01:34:57,240
Speaker 3: is a movie that has non white characters. It is

1687
01:34:57,280 --> 01:35:01,200
Speaker 3: again like an overwhelmingly white view of New York, but

1688
01:35:01,360 --> 01:35:04,679
Speaker 3: the non white characters who we see are overwhelmingly these

1689
01:35:04,880 --> 01:35:12,559
Speaker 3: broad racist stereotypes. I think really with the exception of

1690
01:35:13,120 --> 01:35:17,360
Speaker 3: the two wealthy black characters Jackie and Lee lu.

1691
01:35:19,120 --> 01:35:22,599
Speaker 2: And they've they've been corrupted by greed.

1692
01:35:22,960 --> 01:35:26,400
Speaker 3: They're actually al Pacino or something. So it's like, but

1693
01:35:26,479 --> 01:35:30,840
Speaker 3: even they are like severely underwritten, you know, in comparison

1694
01:35:30,880 --> 01:35:33,640
Speaker 3: to the other characters in this world. I mean, I

1695
01:35:33,680 --> 01:35:38,080
Speaker 3: guess Jackie is sort of like the only quote unquote

1696
01:35:38,160 --> 01:35:44,360
Speaker 3: friend at any point to Maryanne. But again, she's whatever

1697
01:35:44,520 --> 01:35:48,120
Speaker 3: they're to either be like I'm gonna teach you how

1698
01:35:48,200 --> 01:35:52,400
Speaker 3: to be a society wife, or like its just everything

1699
01:35:52,400 --> 01:35:55,519
Speaker 3: she does is in reaction to Maryanne or al Pacino,

1700
01:35:55,640 --> 01:35:58,519
Speaker 3: Like she doesn't really exist independently. And then they make

1701
01:35:58,560 --> 01:36:01,599
Speaker 3: that canon, which is a choice, right.

1702
01:36:01,680 --> 01:36:06,080
Speaker 2: And then with her husband Lehman, he's barely a character,

1703
01:36:06,280 --> 01:36:11,840
Speaker 2: but he he's the guy who approaches Keanu in Florida

1704
01:36:11,920 --> 01:36:15,880
Speaker 2: to be like, hey, come up to Yeah, he says something.

1705
01:36:16,280 --> 01:36:20,240
Speaker 2: He thinks that he's being pranked. He's like, oh hah,

1706
01:36:20,320 --> 01:36:23,120
Speaker 2: I can put you up to this. You being black

1707
01:36:23,520 --> 01:36:26,800
Speaker 2: is a part of the Joe right, And I'm like,

1708
01:36:26,880 --> 01:36:28,439
Speaker 2: what are you talking about?

1709
01:36:28,680 --> 01:36:30,760
Speaker 4: Like what was going on in Florida law firms in

1710
01:36:30,840 --> 01:36:31,840
Speaker 4: nineteen ninety seven.

1711
01:36:32,600 --> 01:36:34,240
Speaker 3: I mean, I was like, I guess that that is

1712
01:36:34,320 --> 01:36:36,840
Speaker 3: a realistic depiction of a random white guy at a

1713
01:36:36,880 --> 01:36:40,080
Speaker 3: bar in Florida. Is that he's true weird and racist,

1714
01:36:40,400 --> 01:36:42,840
Speaker 3: But like, yeah, that so there's like a lot of

1715
01:36:42,960 --> 01:36:47,040
Speaker 3: offhand comments about that most black and brown characters appear

1716
01:36:47,360 --> 01:36:50,679
Speaker 3: as antagonists or just like, I mean, I'm thinking about

1717
01:36:50,680 --> 01:36:53,000
Speaker 3: the guys on the train are portrayed in this very

1718
01:36:53,000 --> 01:36:57,599
Speaker 3: stereotypical way. One of the two unhoused people who kills

1719
01:36:57,720 --> 01:37:01,439
Speaker 3: Jeffrey Jones is a black cacharacter that I didn't even

1720
01:37:01,439 --> 01:37:04,600
Speaker 3: want to like rehash the specific stereotypes there, because you

1721
01:37:04,720 --> 01:37:08,880
Speaker 3: know what they are. But it's just like, yeah, it

1722
01:37:08,960 --> 01:37:13,439
Speaker 3: is very nineties in its portrayal of race. The Delroy

1723
01:37:13,479 --> 01:37:14,320
Speaker 3: Lindo character.

1724
01:37:15,040 --> 01:37:19,000
Speaker 2: Yes, so I think you were alluding to this toward

1725
01:37:19,000 --> 01:37:23,040
Speaker 2: the top of the episode, Sarah, But the question of

1726
01:37:24,520 --> 01:37:29,559
Speaker 2: because Kevin defends his character in court saying that he

1727
01:37:29,720 --> 01:37:32,800
Speaker 2: was simply carrying out a religious practice, which he has

1728
01:37:32,840 --> 01:37:34,920
Speaker 2: the constitutional right to do.

1729
01:37:34,920 --> 01:37:36,480
Speaker 3: At darn constitution.

1730
01:37:38,680 --> 01:37:41,600
Speaker 2: But he's making the argument like we might think that

1731
01:37:41,880 --> 01:37:47,040
Speaker 2: killing a goat at home is weird in our Western

1732
01:37:47,200 --> 01:37:51,240
Speaker 2: Christian world, but is it any weirder than eating veal

1733
01:37:51,640 --> 01:37:56,639
Speaker 2: or getting circumcised or other cultural practices that we deemed

1734
01:37:56,720 --> 01:37:59,680
Speaker 2: to be normal. And it's like, yeah, fair point. But

1735
01:38:00,200 --> 01:38:02,639
Speaker 2: it feels like the movie is presenting all of this

1736
01:38:02,760 --> 01:38:06,720
Speaker 2: as like we are still supposed to think that Filipe

1737
01:38:06,720 --> 01:38:10,880
Speaker 2: Moyees is like weird and what he's doing is really

1738
01:38:10,880 --> 01:38:11,559
Speaker 2: fucked up.

1739
01:38:11,439 --> 01:38:14,160
Speaker 3: Because he had to hire the devil to defend him,

1740
01:38:14,280 --> 01:38:16,120
Speaker 3: like that tells you everything you need to know about it.

1741
01:38:16,120 --> 01:38:18,519
Speaker 4: And he's got too many candles, like he's either shooting

1742
01:38:18,600 --> 01:38:22,000
Speaker 4: a Celine Dion music video or he's worshiping the devil.

1743
01:38:22,040 --> 01:38:23,639
Speaker 4: As the implication I feel like.

1744
01:38:24,000 --> 01:38:28,000
Speaker 3: And now, if Joel Schumacher had been staging the Candle set,

1745
01:38:28,160 --> 01:38:30,080
Speaker 3: Oh Boy, based on what we know about his Phantom

1746
01:38:30,120 --> 01:38:33,120
Speaker 3: of the Opera sets, it would have just it felt

1747
01:38:33,160 --> 01:38:35,680
Speaker 3: a little slap dash. There's a better director to have

1748
01:38:35,720 --> 01:38:37,080
Speaker 3: a room full of candles.

1749
01:38:37,320 --> 01:38:41,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that felt all over the place and racist

1750
01:38:41,200 --> 01:38:43,960
Speaker 2: in the way that that character is portrayed.

1751
01:38:44,160 --> 01:38:46,920
Speaker 4: And the idea is that right that, like Hannah Reeves

1752
01:38:46,960 --> 01:38:51,280
Speaker 4: is making sort of a classic nineties liberal argument of

1753
01:38:51,320 --> 01:38:55,120
Speaker 4: like multiculturalism is good and it's like too much culture

1754
01:38:55,200 --> 01:38:56,040
Speaker 4: equals devil.

1755
01:38:57,439 --> 01:38:57,639
Speaker 3: Right.

1756
01:38:57,960 --> 01:38:59,840
Speaker 4: I think Law and Order was also pointing out a

1757
01:39:00,160 --> 01:39:02,519
Speaker 4: time it's like, don't be too tolerant. You could be

1758
01:39:02,640 --> 01:39:04,000
Speaker 4: tolerating the devil.

1759
01:39:04,120 --> 01:39:04,479
Speaker 3: Devil.

1760
01:39:05,760 --> 01:39:09,519
Speaker 2: Yes, so that's a mess.

1761
01:39:10,320 --> 01:39:12,919
Speaker 3: He's just a mess. This movie's just a weird mess,

1762
01:39:13,000 --> 01:39:15,840
Speaker 3: like mess see and yet weirdly well executed.

1763
01:39:15,920 --> 01:39:18,680
Speaker 4: Like the art design is fantastic, it looks great, it

1764
01:39:18,680 --> 01:39:21,439
Speaker 4: looks the editing I think is done very well. And

1765
01:39:21,479 --> 01:39:23,639
Speaker 4: then in terms of theme, you're like, what.

1766
01:39:24,200 --> 01:39:26,599
Speaker 3: You have to imagine that they were editing around a lot.

1767
01:39:28,160 --> 01:39:30,920
Speaker 4: But including al Pacino speaking Spanish sort of.

1768
01:39:32,880 --> 01:39:36,320
Speaker 3: But the just a little more about the production. I mean,

1769
01:39:36,680 --> 01:39:39,800
Speaker 3: we've talked about a lot of it. Some of it's

1770
01:39:39,920 --> 01:39:44,559
Speaker 3: just funny, which is that al Pacino hated Taylor Hackford,

1771
01:39:44,640 --> 01:39:47,760
Speaker 3: the director, and would always show up late and was like,

1772
01:39:47,800 --> 01:39:50,160
Speaker 3: I hate this guy. He allegedly did not like Keanu

1773
01:39:50,200 --> 01:39:52,080
Speaker 3: and thought Keanu was doing a bad job, which is

1774
01:39:52,160 --> 01:39:54,280
Speaker 3: mean to say, but is it incorrect to say we

1775
01:39:54,280 --> 01:39:59,040
Speaker 3: don't know? Oh, and that speaking to your earlier points,

1776
01:39:59,040 --> 01:40:03,200
Speaker 3: Sarah that this movie was sort of languishing in production

1777
01:40:03,280 --> 01:40:05,080
Speaker 3: for a while, but then got a real shot to

1778
01:40:05,120 --> 01:40:08,639
Speaker 3: the arm when the O. J. Simpson case happened. They

1779
01:40:08,640 --> 01:40:11,160
Speaker 3: were like, oh, this is now's the time to do this,

1780
01:40:11,240 --> 01:40:11,880
Speaker 3: and now we've got.

1781
01:40:11,800 --> 01:40:13,799
Speaker 4: A green light, these evil lawyer movie.

1782
01:40:14,200 --> 01:40:14,639
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1783
01:40:14,720 --> 01:40:17,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, you might even say this movie was in development.

1784
01:40:18,439 --> 01:40:24,120
Speaker 3: Hell, that's where the Devil lives. Albacina's keeping the movie

1785
01:40:24,160 --> 01:40:28,160
Speaker 3: inside of the inside of his room two ears, big

1786
01:40:28,240 --> 01:40:32,640
Speaker 3: fuck rough that he lives in everywhere.

1787
01:40:32,680 --> 01:40:37,200
Speaker 4: So it's like, you don't ever want to just lie down, really,

1788
01:40:37,280 --> 01:40:39,000
Speaker 4: even if you don't, even if you don't.

1789
01:40:38,800 --> 01:40:41,040
Speaker 2: Need to sleep, it's nice to lie down.

1790
01:40:41,080 --> 01:40:42,360
Speaker 3: It's so nice to lie down.

1791
01:40:42,400 --> 01:40:43,519
Speaker 2: It's my favorite thing to do.

1792
01:40:43,920 --> 01:40:46,000
Speaker 3: Colin, you don't want to lie down? The Devil doesn't

1793
01:40:46,040 --> 01:40:51,400
Speaker 3: need floor time? Am I really to believe that? But yeah,

1794
01:40:51,439 --> 01:40:54,000
Speaker 3: I'm like I think that. That's Oh. The last thing

1795
01:40:54,000 --> 01:40:56,559
Speaker 3: I wanted to say was about Pam, uh.

1796
01:40:56,800 --> 01:40:59,400
Speaker 2: Because I left her out of the recap altogether because

1797
01:40:59,400 --> 01:41:02,599
Speaker 2: I was like, who who even is Pam? But Louise,

1798
01:41:02,840 --> 01:41:03,599
Speaker 2: please continue.

1799
01:41:04,360 --> 01:41:08,080
Speaker 3: I like Pam. Also, Pam is played by an actor

1800
01:41:08,120 --> 01:41:09,560
Speaker 3: named Deborah Monk, who had never heard of but she

1801
01:41:09,600 --> 01:41:11,120
Speaker 3: has a tony and emmy.

1802
01:41:10,920 --> 01:41:13,679
Speaker 2: So wow, she's halfway to egotting.

1803
01:41:13,800 --> 01:41:15,880
Speaker 4: Now that you know Deborah Monk's face, you're going to

1804
01:41:15,920 --> 01:41:19,240
Speaker 4: see her in everything. I feel like she's kind of

1805
01:41:19,240 --> 01:41:20,639
Speaker 4: the cherry of this firm.

1806
01:41:20,800 --> 01:41:26,599
Speaker 3: Perhaps I whatever the character is random, but I did

1807
01:41:26,640 --> 01:41:29,599
Speaker 3: feel like it just brought up another nineties Ish trope

1808
01:41:29,600 --> 01:41:31,439
Speaker 3: where there's two women that work at this law firm.

1809
01:41:31,800 --> 01:41:34,439
Speaker 3: One is the daughter of the devil. We know that

1810
01:41:34,520 --> 01:41:37,400
Speaker 3: she is multilingual, but we don't really know what she

1811
01:41:37,600 --> 01:41:40,559
Speaker 3: does because she's there to be hot, which is not

1812
01:41:41,240 --> 01:41:43,280
Speaker 3: saying anything about the actor as saying that's how this

1813
01:41:43,360 --> 01:41:47,599
Speaker 3: part was written for Connie Nielsen. But Pam is allowed

1814
01:41:47,640 --> 01:41:49,719
Speaker 3: to just be good at her job, and I think

1815
01:41:49,760 --> 01:41:52,240
Speaker 3: the reason that is is because she is in her

1816
01:41:52,280 --> 01:41:56,840
Speaker 3: forties and is not rail Finn, which is the like

1817
01:41:56,880 --> 01:41:57,439
Speaker 3: in the nineties.

1818
01:41:57,479 --> 01:41:59,160
Speaker 4: I think you're allowed to be good at your job

1819
01:41:59,200 --> 01:42:02,559
Speaker 4: as a woman and actually depicted doing it occasionally if

1820
01:42:02,560 --> 01:42:05,400
Speaker 4: you're like menopausal and are wearing a top with big

1821
01:42:05,439 --> 01:42:07,200
Speaker 4: buttons on it.

1822
01:42:07,000 --> 01:42:10,160
Speaker 3: Right, I mean, well, it's just like the another example

1823
01:42:10,200 --> 01:42:12,720
Speaker 3: of like you just can't win no matter who you are.

1824
01:42:12,760 --> 01:42:15,559
Speaker 3: Of like, sure if we are if we are telling

1825
01:42:15,600 --> 01:42:18,680
Speaker 3: you that this character is not sexually desirable, then we

1826
01:42:18,760 --> 01:42:21,400
Speaker 3: will be okay with her being just canonically good at

1827
01:42:21,400 --> 01:42:23,599
Speaker 3: her job. You're like, now, what the fuck?

1828
01:42:23,960 --> 01:42:24,559
Speaker 2: What the fuck?

1829
01:42:24,760 --> 01:42:26,640
Speaker 3: I guess she's on The Gilded Age, which is a

1830
01:42:26,640 --> 01:42:28,840
Speaker 3: show that I watch, So there you go.

1831
01:42:29,400 --> 01:42:31,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, anyways, I cap meaning to watch that. I like

1832
01:42:31,840 --> 01:42:34,719
Speaker 4: to see Cynthia Nixon do something else.

1833
01:42:35,320 --> 01:42:38,799
Speaker 3: You'd love, you'd love the damn Gilded Age. But my mom,

1834
01:42:38,920 --> 01:42:41,600
Speaker 3: I love a big over the top house. It's a

1835
01:42:41,640 --> 01:42:43,400
Speaker 3: show to watch with your mom. It's good.

1836
01:42:43,720 --> 01:42:45,559
Speaker 2: Is Christine Baranski in it? Or remind me?

1837
01:42:45,680 --> 01:42:49,360
Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, she and Cynthia Nix and our sisters, which genius,

1838
01:42:49,400 --> 01:42:51,120
Speaker 3: oh genius casting. Yeah.

1839
01:42:51,520 --> 01:42:53,559
Speaker 4: I do think my mom would get bored very quickly

1840
01:42:53,560 --> 01:42:56,360
Speaker 4: if there's not like one murder per episode, because she's

1841
01:42:56,520 --> 01:42:59,679
Speaker 4: very like that's what she expects out of TV.

1842
01:43:00,160 --> 01:43:00,519
Speaker 3: Point.

1843
01:43:01,120 --> 01:43:03,719
Speaker 4: But you know, we can always I can always edit something,

1844
01:43:03,760 --> 01:43:04,559
Speaker 4: and you could.

1845
01:43:04,400 --> 01:43:07,439
Speaker 3: Just edit a random murder into everything, yeah, and then

1846
01:43:07,439 --> 01:43:09,599
Speaker 3: I'll be like, there you go, someone's dead.

1847
01:43:09,880 --> 01:43:12,320
Speaker 4: I just feel like I cut from unsolved mysteries, and

1848
01:43:12,360 --> 01:43:14,679
Speaker 4: then I'll be like, Okay, this is all about the murder.

1849
01:43:15,000 --> 01:43:17,480
Speaker 4: It may not be clear right now, but they're investigating

1850
01:43:17,520 --> 01:43:21,240
Speaker 4: the murder by having sex in this nice bed but

1851
01:43:21,360 --> 01:43:22,360
Speaker 4: can't to que and cover.

1852
01:43:22,560 --> 01:43:24,120
Speaker 3: I really liked the story.

1853
01:43:23,800 --> 01:43:27,040
Speaker 4: That they got in legal trouble with like this sort

1854
01:43:27,040 --> 01:43:32,760
Speaker 4: of statue, the big like art piece behind al Pacino's

1855
01:43:32,800 --> 01:43:35,840
Speaker 4: desk in his big Devil office because an artist who

1856
01:43:35,840 --> 01:43:39,000
Speaker 4: had made a very similar sculpture sued and they were

1857
01:43:39,040 --> 01:43:42,080
Speaker 4: gonna maybe not be able to release it on time

1858
01:43:42,200 --> 01:43:44,080
Speaker 4: for home video if they and so they had to

1859
01:43:44,120 --> 01:43:47,479
Speaker 4: like go back and kind of incredibly at this point

1860
01:43:47,520 --> 01:43:51,639
Speaker 4: in time digitally alter the footage of this art piece

1861
01:43:51,920 --> 01:43:56,080
Speaker 4: so that it, whoa basically wasn't too similar to the

1862
01:43:56,080 --> 01:43:59,439
Speaker 4: the artist's previous piece, which apparently they were emulating pretty closely,

1863
01:43:59,479 --> 01:44:02,200
Speaker 4: and so we're only had like human figures trapped in

1864
01:44:02,240 --> 01:44:05,920
Speaker 4: this kind of mailstorm mailstrom, mailstrom, that's probably the word.

1865
01:44:06,640 --> 01:44:10,640
Speaker 4: So they like had to it's definitely not male storm,

1866
01:44:11,320 --> 01:44:14,600
Speaker 4: that would just be a lot of male and a cyclone.

1867
01:44:14,960 --> 01:44:17,519
Speaker 4: But so they had to smooth the human figures out

1868
01:44:17,520 --> 01:44:20,839
Speaker 4: of this piece until the kind of big final monologue

1869
01:44:20,840 --> 01:44:23,040
Speaker 4: scene when they're allowed to be there again. But it's

1870
01:44:23,120 --> 01:44:25,400
Speaker 4: I guess you think about the people who had to

1871
01:44:25,400 --> 01:44:26,040
Speaker 4: do that job.

1872
01:44:26,160 --> 01:44:29,400
Speaker 3: That's so funny to me because like, no matter which way,

1873
01:44:29,680 --> 01:44:33,120
Speaker 3: no matter what way you hack it, it looks like shit.

1874
01:44:33,920 --> 01:44:38,240
Speaker 3: Like yeah, so that also. Yeah, I also saw that

1875
01:44:38,280 --> 01:44:42,400
Speaker 3: they used Pacino's like Godfather Too face to digitally edit

1876
01:44:42,479 --> 01:44:43,000
Speaker 3: in for.

1877
01:44:42,960 --> 01:44:46,519
Speaker 4: When He's which no one will notice.

1878
01:44:46,560 --> 01:44:49,120
Speaker 3: That movie is only twenty years old at this time.

1879
01:44:49,479 --> 01:44:51,679
Speaker 3: That movie is an obscure little film.

1880
01:44:51,800 --> 01:44:52,720
Speaker 2: No one's ever seen that.

1881
01:44:53,160 --> 01:44:55,519
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that was everything I had. This movie

1882
01:44:55,600 --> 01:44:59,040
Speaker 3: was very successful, but I do feel like, and let

1883
01:44:59,080 --> 01:45:01,559
Speaker 3: me know if I'm just if this is like an

1884
01:45:01,560 --> 01:45:03,559
Speaker 3: I've missed the boat thing. But I do think this

1885
01:45:03,640 --> 01:45:05,840
Speaker 3: movie has sort of been lost to time. It didn't

1886
01:45:05,840 --> 01:45:07,040
Speaker 3: really have staying power.

1887
01:45:07,120 --> 01:45:09,000
Speaker 4: I agree, right, It's one of those movies that did

1888
01:45:09,000 --> 01:45:11,479
Speaker 4: really well at the time, but like, who's ever like,

1889
01:45:12,080 --> 01:45:15,120
Speaker 4: come on, Sonny Boy or fourteen, time to watch The

1890
01:45:15,160 --> 01:45:18,080
Speaker 4: Devil's Advocate. You're gonna learn so much about life.

1891
01:45:18,240 --> 01:45:20,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, it could be fun, though this is this has

1892
01:45:21,000 --> 01:45:23,400
Speaker 2: been lost to time to the point where I barely

1893
01:45:23,520 --> 01:45:24,960
Speaker 2: knew what this movie was and I thought I.

1894
01:45:25,080 --> 01:45:26,800
Speaker 3: Thought it was completely differentime. I was thought it was

1895
01:45:26,840 --> 01:45:30,160
Speaker 3: Met Joe Black, and you thought it was The Devil's

1896
01:45:30,680 --> 01:45:33,200
Speaker 3: The Devil's own none of my business.

1897
01:45:33,280 --> 01:45:37,600
Speaker 4: This movie would play well in a double feature with

1898
01:45:37,680 --> 01:45:40,080
Speaker 4: The Devil Wears Prada, which is also about having a

1899
01:45:40,080 --> 01:45:42,400
Speaker 4: demanding boss and a partner who doesn't like it.

1900
01:45:43,080 --> 01:45:44,519
Speaker 3: Wow, and I would like to see that.

1901
01:45:45,040 --> 01:45:45,840
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1902
01:45:45,880 --> 01:45:48,160
Speaker 3: Does this movie pass the backdel test? I think if

1903
01:45:48,160 --> 01:45:52,280
Speaker 3: we're to believe that everyone in the cast is not

1904
01:45:52,360 --> 01:45:53,479
Speaker 3: secretly al Pacino.

1905
01:45:53,800 --> 01:46:00,439
Speaker 2: Yes, Yes, because Marion talks to women like Jackie and

1906
01:46:00,920 --> 01:46:05,360
Speaker 2: Pam and maybe a third woman.

1907
01:46:05,040 --> 01:46:07,920
Speaker 4: A mother in law reads the Bible to her, which

1908
01:46:08,439 --> 01:46:10,520
Speaker 4: says about stuff.

1909
01:46:10,160 --> 01:46:11,519
Speaker 2: Alice her mother in law.

1910
01:46:11,640 --> 01:46:14,760
Speaker 3: There is a random third woman who appears for just

1911
01:46:14,800 --> 01:46:16,920
Speaker 3: the one scene to be in her undoor and be like,

1912
01:46:17,120 --> 01:46:19,640
Speaker 3: sin is amazing. You're like, who the fuck are you?

1913
01:46:20,240 --> 01:46:24,000
Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure she's the wife of the Jeffrey Jones character.

1914
01:46:24,760 --> 01:46:27,240
Speaker 3: I think that's bomber for her in general.

1915
01:46:27,720 --> 01:46:33,320
Speaker 2: Yes, but yeah, they're talking about chardonnay and boobs. I

1916
01:46:33,320 --> 01:46:37,880
Speaker 2: mean what passes the more than two women talking about boobs.

1917
01:46:38,360 --> 01:46:43,519
Speaker 3: You ever talked with your girlies about boobies? At Yeah?

1918
01:46:44,000 --> 01:46:46,200
Speaker 3: I mean I have talked about boobies with my friends

1919
01:46:46,200 --> 01:46:48,360
Speaker 3: at the store. But there's so much more to me

1920
01:46:48,439 --> 01:46:51,120
Speaker 3: than that. I also talk about butts with my friends

1921
01:46:51,120 --> 01:46:51,519
Speaker 3: at the store.

1922
01:46:51,640 --> 01:46:53,519
Speaker 2: That is equally important those two things.

1923
01:46:53,560 --> 01:46:59,439
Speaker 3: That's seen as a documentary. Yeah, it does technically past

1924
01:47:00,320 --> 01:47:02,840
Speaker 3: against and I think it actually does credibly pass the

1925
01:47:02,840 --> 01:47:05,920
Speaker 3: Bechdel test. But with it i'm usual caveat. But as

1926
01:47:05,920 --> 01:47:08,920
Speaker 3: we've been saying for ten years now, that doesn't mean

1927
01:47:08,960 --> 01:47:09,800
Speaker 3: it's a feminist movie.

1928
01:47:09,800 --> 01:47:13,080
Speaker 2: So let's get to the actual metric, the metric that

1929
01:47:13,200 --> 01:47:16,599
Speaker 2: does mean shit, which is the Bechdel cast nipple scale,

1930
01:47:16,640 --> 01:47:20,599
Speaker 2: where we rate the movie zero to five nipples based

1931
01:47:20,640 --> 01:47:25,759
Speaker 2: on examining the movie through an intersectional feminist lens. And well,

1932
01:47:26,320 --> 01:47:32,320
Speaker 2: I think this is a half nipple shrug for reasons

1933
01:47:32,360 --> 01:47:34,479
Speaker 2: I can't even articulate. I don't even know why I

1934
01:47:34,479 --> 01:47:37,840
Speaker 2: would give it as many as one half nipple, but

1935
01:47:38,840 --> 01:47:43,240
Speaker 2: I guess because we like do cut back to Mary

1936
01:47:43,240 --> 01:47:47,280
Speaker 2: Anne pretty frequently and like check in with her and

1937
01:47:47,320 --> 01:47:51,960
Speaker 2: what she's going through, which is a very relatable experience

1938
01:47:52,920 --> 01:47:59,040
Speaker 2: for many women. So because a lot of women are

1939
01:47:59,479 --> 01:48:04,280
Speaker 2: married to men who maybe not literally work for the devil,

1940
01:48:04,439 --> 01:48:08,879
Speaker 2: but they're doing very evil work in their lives.

1941
01:48:09,040 --> 01:48:11,280
Speaker 3: So my friend's husband works at Meta.

1942
01:48:11,640 --> 01:48:15,519
Speaker 2: Oh yikes. So yeah, I'll give this a half nipple.

1943
01:48:15,960 --> 01:48:19,600
Speaker 2: And I guess i'll give it to Charlie's there, and

1944
01:48:20,160 --> 01:48:23,160
Speaker 2: I don't know, she's doing her best. She's doing her best.

1945
01:48:23,240 --> 01:48:25,599
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm gonna I don't for some reason. I'm gonna

1946
01:48:25,640 --> 01:48:29,519
Speaker 3: give it one. I'm gonna give it one because and

1947
01:48:29,560 --> 01:48:35,680
Speaker 3: it's and I give the nipple to Fun conceptually.

1948
01:48:37,240 --> 01:48:40,040
Speaker 4: I love Fun and.

1949
01:48:40,360 --> 01:48:44,360
Speaker 3: This movie is it true? No, this movie is not feminist.

1950
01:48:44,439 --> 01:48:49,560
Speaker 3: It is it does poorly in terms of it mentions

1951
01:48:49,720 --> 01:48:52,519
Speaker 3: gender roles, and then proceeds to really do nothing with it,

1952
01:48:52,600 --> 01:48:56,559
Speaker 3: and then have the male protagonist who's the literal son

1953
01:48:56,600 --> 01:49:00,839
Speaker 3: of the devil maybe or maybe not, The ends with

1954
01:49:01,200 --> 01:49:03,720
Speaker 3: him experiencing no consequence.

1955
01:49:03,880 --> 01:49:06,840
Speaker 2: So don't worry. This is another story about a male

1956
01:49:06,880 --> 01:49:09,680
Speaker 2: redemption arc maybe but not.

1957
01:49:09,840 --> 01:49:12,360
Speaker 3: But they don't even bother to redeem him. He just

1958
01:49:12,479 --> 01:49:14,639
Speaker 3: I guess he shoots himself with that, like he gets

1959
01:49:14,640 --> 01:49:17,920
Speaker 3: to learn nothing, which is ideal. Yeah, so it is

1960
01:49:17,960 --> 01:49:21,720
Speaker 3: a very comfortable movie for bad men to watch. I

1961
01:49:21,760 --> 01:49:24,720
Speaker 3: don't know. The al Pacino performance is so funny to

1962
01:49:24,800 --> 01:49:28,719
Speaker 3: me everywhere. Yeah, okay, so I'm gonna give it one nipple.

1963
01:49:28,800 --> 01:49:31,479
Speaker 3: For some reason, I cannot be held accountable for this writing,

1964
01:49:32,000 --> 01:49:35,400
Speaker 3: and I'm gonna give it to the line read everywhere

1965
01:49:36,280 --> 01:49:38,240
Speaker 3: nice yepes Sarah.

1966
01:49:38,240 --> 01:49:41,120
Speaker 4: Well, I'm gonna give a nipple to the line read

1967
01:49:41,280 --> 01:49:45,040
Speaker 4: I'm a fan of Man, which I've always loved.

1968
01:49:45,680 --> 01:49:46,080
Speaker 3: I don't know.

1969
01:49:46,120 --> 01:49:48,360
Speaker 4: That last speech by the Devil like almost makes some

1970
01:49:48,479 --> 01:49:51,639
Speaker 4: good points, and then it's like, have sex with your sister,

1971
01:49:51,680 --> 01:49:53,519
Speaker 4: and you're like, all right, never mind, mind.

1972
01:49:53,800 --> 01:49:56,880
Speaker 3: It is wild that it lands there because he's just

1973
01:49:56,920 --> 01:49:59,719
Speaker 3: been talking for I know it's not actually twenty minutes,

1974
01:49:59,800 --> 01:50:03,000
Speaker 3: but at least ten minutes. He is like talking in

1975
01:50:03,120 --> 01:50:05,479
Speaker 3: circles and he's like, so, as I was saying have

1976
01:50:05,520 --> 01:50:07,960
Speaker 3: sex with your sister, You're like, how did we land there?

1977
01:50:08,280 --> 01:50:10,000
Speaker 3: How is that where that speech ends?

1978
01:50:10,000 --> 01:50:12,679
Speaker 2: At one point he stops and then starts again.

1979
01:50:13,000 --> 01:50:17,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like it's fantastic. It's sort of like my favorite

1980
01:50:17,160 --> 01:50:20,479
Speaker 3: kind of bad movie climax where it's just happening in

1981
01:50:20,520 --> 01:50:23,479
Speaker 3: a room but there's really not any actions and right,

1982
01:50:23,880 --> 01:50:26,719
Speaker 3: so he's just walking in a circle for like ten minutes.

1983
01:50:26,880 --> 01:50:28,960
Speaker 4: It is a big room, so he does have space

1984
01:50:29,000 --> 01:50:31,519
Speaker 4: for that. But he's the Yeah, he's the devil. He's

1985
01:50:31,560 --> 01:50:33,760
Speaker 4: got a big old room. I mean, if not for

1986
01:50:33,800 --> 01:50:36,000
Speaker 4: al Pacino, no one would have watched this thing. You know,

1987
01:50:36,040 --> 01:50:39,200
Speaker 4: imagine if they got like Gene Hackman, it would just

1988
01:50:39,360 --> 01:50:41,120
Speaker 4: it would have been a whole other deal.

1989
01:50:41,439 --> 01:50:44,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's true. I mean maybe it would have been okay,

1990
01:50:44,200 --> 01:50:47,280
Speaker 3: But like, would I have seen al Pacino as the devil? Like?

1991
01:50:47,400 --> 01:50:50,519
Speaker 3: That's it just makes sense that puts butts in seats.

1992
01:50:50,560 --> 01:50:52,759
Speaker 3: That's one hundred million dollars at the box office.

1993
01:50:53,000 --> 01:50:54,760
Speaker 4: Like, I kind of the thing is, I kind of

1994
01:50:54,800 --> 01:50:57,080
Speaker 4: do believe that he could be the devil, like and

1995
01:50:57,120 --> 01:50:59,599
Speaker 4: I do believe this depiction of the devil because he's

1996
01:50:59,680 --> 01:51:04,879
Speaker 4: like just fundamentally annoying, which I think is like biblically accurate.

1997
01:51:05,800 --> 01:51:09,000
Speaker 3: And I also I like, just not in a.

1998
01:51:08,920 --> 01:51:12,519
Speaker 4: Particularly well considered way, but from my heart, I want

1999
01:51:12,560 --> 01:51:15,400
Speaker 4: to give part of that nipple to Charlie's there and

2000
01:51:15,479 --> 01:51:19,639
Speaker 4: just for like be putting up sample wall treatments while

2001
01:51:19,640 --> 01:51:23,439
Speaker 4: she's got an entire fried piece of chicken in her

2002
01:51:23,479 --> 01:51:26,400
Speaker 4: mouth from Popeyes. I just think that's very iconic behavior,

2003
01:51:26,439 --> 01:51:29,040
Speaker 4: and it was inspiring to me in some obscure way.

2004
01:51:29,800 --> 01:51:32,320
Speaker 2: She's also putting what I think are some of the

2005
01:51:32,439 --> 01:51:35,599
Speaker 2: ugliest colors to paint on your wall.

2006
01:51:35,760 --> 01:51:38,800
Speaker 4: I know, that's like not even on design sense or

2007
01:51:38,800 --> 01:51:41,040
Speaker 4: whatever that horrifying show was. Were they doing that?

2008
01:51:42,120 --> 01:51:45,760
Speaker 2: One is like a Shrek green one that.

2009
01:51:45,840 --> 01:51:50,519
Speaker 3: Was my childhood bedroom color. I think I think ultimately

2010
01:51:50,720 --> 01:51:53,479
Speaker 3: I liked I was like, just let her make her

2011
01:51:53,520 --> 01:51:58,120
Speaker 3: apartment tacky. Come on, the tacky is awesome and fun.

2012
01:51:58,600 --> 01:52:01,320
Speaker 3: It really is the jab. But Jackie said no TACKI

2013
01:52:01,840 --> 01:52:02,559
Speaker 3: no tacky for.

2014
01:52:02,600 --> 01:52:04,959
Speaker 2: Jackie, no TALKI for Jackie.

2015
01:52:04,960 --> 01:52:08,080
Speaker 3: So Charlie's is just shit out of luck because Jackie

2016
01:52:08,080 --> 01:52:11,720
Speaker 3: said no tacky. We got it. Well, we gotta end.

2017
01:52:11,760 --> 01:52:16,040
Speaker 3: No episode, Sarah, where can we find the new show?

2018
01:52:16,160 --> 01:52:17,759
Speaker 3: When does it come out? Tell us everything?

2019
01:52:18,160 --> 01:52:20,840
Speaker 4: So the new show, it's an eight part mini series.

2020
01:52:20,840 --> 01:52:21,679
Speaker 4: It's called The Devil.

2021
01:52:21,760 --> 01:52:22,000
Speaker 3: You know.

2022
01:52:22,360 --> 01:52:24,919
Speaker 4: I think by the time you're hearing this, new episodes

2023
01:52:24,960 --> 01:52:28,920
Speaker 4: will already be coming out premieres or has premiered October twentieth.

2024
01:52:29,320 --> 01:52:32,120
Speaker 4: We're going to be putting episodes out through mid December.

2025
01:52:32,160 --> 01:52:34,280
Speaker 4: There are bonus episodes if you want to hear them,

2026
01:52:34,439 --> 01:52:37,600
Speaker 4: or we get more interviews for context, including getting to

2027
01:52:37,640 --> 01:52:41,760
Speaker 4: talk to a galer fan theory scholar. Wow, and so

2028
01:52:41,800 --> 01:52:45,800
Speaker 4: you can hear it wherever Fine Podcasts are distributed, and

2029
01:52:45,920 --> 01:52:49,719
Speaker 4: you can also catch the first episode on the feet

2030
01:52:49,760 --> 01:52:53,400
Speaker 4: of my own every two weeks show You're Wrong About,

2031
01:52:53,479 --> 01:52:56,760
Speaker 4: which is about misremembered history and Jamie, you and I

2032
01:52:56,840 --> 01:53:01,439
Speaker 4: have a bonus episode this very month of October when

2033
01:53:01,479 --> 01:53:05,080
Speaker 4: I'm talking to you about bimbos.

2034
01:53:05,520 --> 01:53:07,559
Speaker 3: Who would have thought? And I'm so happy to be

2035
01:53:07,640 --> 01:53:10,080
Speaker 3: putting that one out too. I love that you're too.

2036
01:53:10,960 --> 01:53:13,400
Speaker 3: I mean, you have many areas of expertise, but in

2037
01:53:13,439 --> 01:53:17,360
Speaker 3: the easily the top five are bimbos and the Devil.

2038
01:53:18,040 --> 01:53:20,760
Speaker 4: But really, yeah, because what do we hate? What's more

2039
01:53:20,800 --> 01:53:23,559
Speaker 4: evil than like the Prince of Darkness? It's a woman

2040
01:53:23,640 --> 01:53:25,640
Speaker 4: who wears a lip color that we don't like.

2041
01:53:26,320 --> 01:53:29,160
Speaker 3: It's true, and that's why the Elizabeth Hurley performance of

2042
01:53:29,200 --> 01:53:31,839
Speaker 3: the Devil is the definitive one. Oh my god, listeners,

2043
01:53:31,880 --> 01:53:34,760
Speaker 3: thank you for joining us for this episode that's not

2044
01:53:34,920 --> 01:53:37,479
Speaker 3: quite as long as the Devil's Advocate, but closer than

2045
01:53:37,520 --> 01:53:40,640
Speaker 3: you think. Please illegally pirate this movie. Don't give them

2046
01:53:40,640 --> 01:53:42,840
Speaker 3: any money, but like it is a fun movie to

2047
01:53:42,880 --> 01:53:43,639
Speaker 3: watch with friends.

2048
01:53:43,800 --> 01:53:46,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, the Devil wants you to steal, so do it.

2049
01:53:46,479 --> 01:53:49,360
Speaker 3: The Devil loves when you use one, two, three movies

2050
01:53:49,360 --> 01:53:52,720
Speaker 3: dot ru and it breaks your computer. I like doing that.

2051
01:53:52,760 --> 01:53:55,599
Speaker 3: I was like, I think it has reduced the whatever

2052
01:53:55,640 --> 01:53:59,280
Speaker 3: we're bringing back pirrating. And you can follow us in

2053
01:53:59,280 --> 01:54:03,280
Speaker 3: all the normal places, that being mainly Instagram, And you

2054
01:54:03,360 --> 01:54:07,840
Speaker 3: can join our Patreon aka Matreon, where every month we

2055
01:54:07,960 --> 01:54:10,720
Speaker 3: do two original episodes on a theme of ours or

2056
01:54:10,760 --> 01:54:15,120
Speaker 3: you are choosing always something weird like Lawyer Bewery, question Mark.

2057
01:54:15,120 --> 01:54:17,840
Speaker 3: If you want that, maybe five bucks a month gets

2058
01:54:17,880 --> 01:54:21,120
Speaker 3: you that and access to our hundreds of episodes in

2059
01:54:21,120 --> 01:54:21,839
Speaker 3: our back catalog.

2060
01:54:22,200 --> 01:54:30,120
Speaker 2: Indeed, and with that, shall we go shopping and undress

2061
01:54:30,200 --> 01:54:32,879
Speaker 2: in the middle of the store while we're drinking chardonay

2062
01:54:32,880 --> 01:54:34,240
Speaker 2: and touch each other's boobs.

2063
01:54:34,280 --> 01:54:36,680
Speaker 3: Sure, but I might secretly be out, but you know,

2064
01:54:37,960 --> 01:54:41,480
Speaker 3: I hope you are. That's a king for some people,

2065
01:54:42,520 --> 01:54:48,480
Speaker 3: all right, Bye bye bye. The Bechdel Cast is a

2066
01:54:48,520 --> 01:54:53,440
Speaker 3: production of iHeartMedia, hosted and produced by Me Jamie Loftus.

2067
01:54:53,000 --> 01:54:56,480
Speaker 2: And Me Caitlyn Durrante. The podcast is also produced by

2068
01:54:56,600 --> 01:54:58,200
Speaker 2: Sophie Lichtermann and.

2069
01:54:58,160 --> 01:55:00,520
Speaker 3: Edited by Caitlyn Dorante. Ever heard of them?

2070
01:55:01,000 --> 01:55:04,440
Speaker 2: That's me and our logo and merch and all of

2071
01:55:04,440 --> 01:55:08,200
Speaker 2: our artwork in fact are designed by Jamie Loftus ever

2072
01:55:08,240 --> 01:55:08,680
Speaker 2: heard of her?

2073
01:55:08,880 --> 01:55:11,880
Speaker 3: Oh My God, and our theme song, by the way,

2074
01:55:12,000 --> 01:55:13,800
Speaker 3: was composed by Mike Kaplan.

2075
01:55:13,640 --> 01:55:16,800
Speaker 2: With vocals by Katherine Voskrasinski.

2076
01:55:16,320 --> 01:55:19,160
Speaker 3: Iconic and a special thanks to the one and only

2077
01:55:19,480 --> 01:55:20,760
Speaker 3: Aristotle Ascevedo.

2078
01:55:21,320 --> 01:55:25,080
Speaker 2: For more information about the podcast, please visit Linktree Slash

2079
01:55:25,080 --> 01:55:25,880
Speaker 2: Spectelcast