1
00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:03,800
Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the host, guests,

2
00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:07,240
Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

3
00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:11,639
Speaker 1: its affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

4
00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:23,080
Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true

5
00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:26,759
Speaker 2: crime all the time. It's Sunday, January eleventh, and yes,

6
00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:28,680
Speaker 2: we have a stack tonight of headlines.

7
00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:31,160
Speaker 3: We hope you had a beautiful weekend. Listen.

8
00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:34,800
Speaker 2: A major major arrest in the double homicide of the

9
00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:40,879
Speaker 2: Ohio married couple, Spencer and Monique Tepe major. I cannot

10
00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:43,000
Speaker 2: wait to discuss with you, guys. I wanted to call

11
00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:47,080
Speaker 2: you all weekend. Plus, a grave robber has been arrested

12
00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:51,080
Speaker 2: and by the way, he had hundreds of human remains

13
00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:52,479
Speaker 2: when he was found.

14
00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:54,160
Speaker 3: Luigi Mangioni.

15
00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:55,840
Speaker 2: We didn't get to talk about this, but he was

16
00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:59,160
Speaker 2: back in federal court. And also the families of the

17
00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:03,520
Speaker 2: Idaho student murder victims file a new lawsuit. And by

18
00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:06,720
Speaker 2: the way, it is that night. We have our very

19
00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:10,520
Speaker 2: favorite forensics expert, Joseph Scott Morgan, host of the hit

20
00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:14,679
Speaker 2: podcast body Bags, back with us for the very first

21
00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:16,040
Speaker 2: time in twenty twenty one.

22
00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:19,000
Speaker 4: Next New Year, Happy New Year.

23
00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:22,600
Speaker 2: Joseph Scott Morgan. Listen, Joseph's son actually crashed at my place.

24
00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:25,280
Speaker 2: I wasn't here and we haven't seen each other. I

25
00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:27,480
Speaker 2: would be wearing the shirt that he left me. He

26
00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:31,280
Speaker 2: left me the nicest card and like a shirt, and

27
00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:34,479
Speaker 2: Austin's wearing it right now, so he might make an appearance.

28
00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:39,080
Speaker 5: Otherwise he's gonna say, it's of course.

29
00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:40,960
Speaker 6: I mean, did we really expect anything different.

30
00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:44,480
Speaker 4: This is Joseph. We're talking about southern hospitality.

31
00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:47,880
Speaker 2: He is just the best. And we're so glad that

32
00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:50,160
Speaker 2: you're here because there's so many things to discuss. And

33
00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:53,160
Speaker 2: by the way, I'm Stephanie Leidecker here of course with

34
00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:56,960
Speaker 2: my two incredible favorite ladies, Courtney Armstrong.

35
00:01:56,680 --> 00:01:57,640
Speaker 3: And Body move in.

36
00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:02,440
Speaker 2: We have Sam and Adam in the house and Taha

37
00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:06,080
Speaker 2: is in the studio as well. So here we go, everybody,

38
00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:07,559
Speaker 2: let's go to a talkback right now.

39
00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:11,080
Speaker 7: I saw where they have our suspect and custody in

40
00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:15,120
Speaker 7: relation to the horrible marders of the dentist in Ohio,

41
00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:19,120
Speaker 7: and I'm shocked to see here whatever that it was

42
00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:22,720
Speaker 7: the next husband. But I'm really curious myself to know

43
00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:25,040
Speaker 7: the backstory and the relations that it.

44
00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:27,720
Speaker 5: Might be to all of this that nine one call.

45
00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:31,800
Speaker 6: Yeah, I'm interested too, but we don't know a whole

46
00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:33,880
Speaker 6: lot about. What we do know is that police have

47
00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:37,400
Speaker 6: arrested a suspect in the double homicide of the Ohio

48
00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:40,120
Speaker 6: dentist and his wife after nearly two weeks of searching.

49
00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:42,600
Speaker 6: I think it's quite remarkable they found him very quickly.

50
00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:48,040
Speaker 6: Thirty seven year old dentist Spencer Tepe and his thirty

51
00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:51,680
Speaker 6: nine year old wife, Monica Tepe, were found dead from

52
00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:56,720
Speaker 6: apparent gunshot wounds inside their Columbus, Ohio home, early on

53
00:02:56,760 --> 00:03:00,720
Speaker 6: December thirtieth. Their two young children, each one in four,

54
00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:05,000
Speaker 6: were found alive, thank god, unharmed inside the home. And

55
00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:08,760
Speaker 6: the suspect, you guys, the suspect is her ex husband

56
00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:12,639
Speaker 6: and his name is Michael David McKee.

57
00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:14,880
Speaker 4: He is also thirty nine years old.

58
00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:19,400
Speaker 6: And you know, they caught him because of surveillance footage.

59
00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:23,000
Speaker 6: So apparently there was some surveillance footage that tipped off

60
00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:25,880
Speaker 6: the car and they were able to trace the car

61
00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:29,680
Speaker 6: to being owned by him, and they arrested him in

62
00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:34,680
Speaker 6: Illinois over the weekend. So again, he's from Illinois. He's

63
00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:39,040
Speaker 6: the ex husband of Monica Tepe. They were married Michael,

64
00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:41,800
Speaker 6: the suspect in this case, and the victim, Monica Tepe.

65
00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:45,960
Speaker 6: They were married in twenty fifteen and divorced in twenty seventeen.

66
00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:49,640
Speaker 6: They had no kids. Okay, the reason for the DORIS

67
00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:54,400
Speaker 6: was incompatibility, and a standard mutual restraining order was issued,

68
00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:56,960
Speaker 6: and there's nothing fishy about that. That's standard in the

69
00:03:56,960 --> 00:04:01,000
Speaker 6: state in which this happened. His name is David McKee.

70
00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:06,120
Speaker 6: He listened to this. He's a vascular surgeon. He's a doctor. Yeah,

71
00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:07,040
Speaker 6: he's a doctor.

72
00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:10,080
Speaker 2: He sometimes psychopaths can also be doctors.

73
00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:12,720
Speaker 6: Oh of course, yeah, of course, it's just oh, it's

74
00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:16,039
Speaker 6: just crazy. And she married another doctor. That's just I

75
00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:18,479
Speaker 6: just find that interesting that she married a doctor and

76
00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:19,159
Speaker 6: another doctor.

77
00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:22,040
Speaker 4: Let me dentist our doctors, right, Oh, it's crazy.

78
00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:25,360
Speaker 6: So he's a licensed medical doctor specializing in vascular surgery

79
00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:29,560
Speaker 6: with licenses in California and Illinois and no reported issues.

80
00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:33,000
Speaker 6: He did have a license here in Nevada, in Clark County,

81
00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:36,800
Speaker 6: where I live, and that lapsed in mid twenty twenty five.

82
00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:40,720
Speaker 6: Court records in Clark County show that he was one

83
00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:44,640
Speaker 6: of several doctors who were named in an ongoing personal

84
00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:51,279
Speaker 6: injury lawsuit. He was arrested on January tenth of twenty

85
00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:54,840
Speaker 6: twenty six in Rockford, Illinois, and charged with two counter

86
00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:58,159
Speaker 6: murder in the deaths of the victims, Monique Teppe and

87
00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:02,599
Speaker 6: her husband, Spencer Tepe. He is being held in Winnebago

88
00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:06,359
Speaker 6: County Jail pending extradition to Franklin County, Ohio, with a

89
00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:09,680
Speaker 6: court hearing scheduled for tomorrow, January twelfth, And we expect

90
00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:12,560
Speaker 6: that's likely to be some kind of extradition hearing to

91
00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:16,120
Speaker 6: get things moving to get him sent from Illinois to Ohio.

92
00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:20,760
Speaker 6: So investigators, yeah, they linked him to the homicides through

93
00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:25,280
Speaker 6: vehicle surveillance showing a car he owned arriving near the

94
00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:28,720
Speaker 6: victim's home shortly before the killing and then leaving right after.

95
00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:34,159
Speaker 6: Police have not publicly disposed disclosed a motive, or whether

96
00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:39,680
Speaker 6: or not he has retained an attorney or commented on

97
00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:41,520
Speaker 6: in the charges at all. We don't know if he's speaking,

98
00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:45,560
Speaker 6: and we also don't know like who the target was really, right,

99
00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:46,240
Speaker 6: We don't know.

100
00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:50,800
Speaker 2: We do the husband, You know, Spencer had far more home.

101
00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:53,120
Speaker 4: Well, sure he had far.

102
00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:57,120
Speaker 2: More speak to this more, but it seems like he

103
00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:00,920
Speaker 2: was the intended target. They both were would do this

104
00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:03,760
Speaker 2: to such a beautiful couple while their kids were so close?

105
00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:07,240
Speaker 6: Yeah, so all we really know is that there were

106
00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:11,040
Speaker 6: multiple gunshots for him, the spencer Tepe, the man who

107
00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:14,599
Speaker 6: was killed and won for her. Now does that speak

108
00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:17,000
Speaker 6: to motive? Does that speak not to motive necessarily but

109
00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:22,280
Speaker 6: target maybe? Or maybe Spencer was mobile and he had

110
00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:23,800
Speaker 6: to you know what I mean, We don't really know

111
00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:27,240
Speaker 6: if that one is that she's a target, but I

112
00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:30,680
Speaker 6: mean maybe, But again, what would be the motive to

113
00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:31,839
Speaker 6: make a husband the target?

114
00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:34,240
Speaker 3: Well, jealousy, rage?

115
00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:37,159
Speaker 2: You know, this is obviously a couple that had their issues.

116
00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:38,920
Speaker 3: They were not married for very long.

117
00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:43,240
Speaker 2: There had been mutual restraining orders given to both, so

118
00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:47,240
Speaker 2: obviously this was a troubled, tumultuous relationship. I mean, this

119
00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:52,000
Speaker 2: guy's a surgeon. He travels four hundred miles, four hundred miles.

120
00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:55,120
Speaker 2: He wasn't even trying to not get caught. He's like,

121
00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:58,560
Speaker 2: this guy's no dummy. He goes in his own personal vehicle.

122
00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:02,800
Speaker 2: He's caught on surveill lumping along in a back alley.

123
00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:07,880
Speaker 2: He's exactly where he expected to be, being extradited and

124
00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:11,440
Speaker 2: locked up I'm surprised this is the ending, but it

125
00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:14,720
Speaker 2: is a horrifying ending, and the motive seems really clear.

126
00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:17,680
Speaker 2: This guy had it out for his ex. And I

127
00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:22,400
Speaker 2: think it's a real big red alarm to anybody who's like, uh,

128
00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:26,560
Speaker 2: I'm not so sure he's not that bad, you know what.

129
00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:29,320
Speaker 2: Thank God Monique got away from this relationship. It had

130
00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:32,640
Speaker 2: been many years, of course, in twenty seventeen. It's twenty

131
00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:36,760
Speaker 2: twenty six at this point. So talk about the revenge, and.

132
00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:38,760
Speaker 6: It's not like they had It's not like they had

133
00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:40,800
Speaker 6: to communicate because they had children or they were co

134
00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:43,520
Speaker 6: parenting or whatnot. I mean, there could have been a

135
00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:46,840
Speaker 6: clean break, like why because he's a psychopath.

136
00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:49,080
Speaker 3: This guy is a psychopath.

137
00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:51,280
Speaker 2: And I'm not being glib when I say, sometimes a

138
00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:54,400
Speaker 2: psychopath is smart enough to be a surgeon.

139
00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:56,880
Speaker 3: By the way, you want a psychopath.

140
00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:58,440
Speaker 2: As a surgeon who can actually remain a little bit

141
00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:02,320
Speaker 2: of motionless if they're operating on something. Dare I say

142
00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:04,920
Speaker 2: this is a sweeping generalization, but I'm not being glib

143
00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:09,560
Speaker 2: when I say that. You know, there's an emotionlessness sometimes

144
00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:11,680
Speaker 2: and this is a revenge kill. And I'm going out

145
00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:13,960
Speaker 2: on a limb here because there's not a ton of

146
00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:16,880
Speaker 2: information coming out just yet. I love it if you

147
00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:20,480
Speaker 2: look at his previous relationship problems there as well. So

148
00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:24,920
Speaker 2: this guy has been likely stalking her. I'm looking forward

149
00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:27,000
Speaker 2: to finding out the phone records. How did he have

150
00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:29,680
Speaker 2: access to their house? How the hell did you kill

151
00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:32,400
Speaker 2: your ex wife when their one and four year old

152
00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:34,800
Speaker 2: child or sleeping in the other room.

153
00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:38,840
Speaker 6: There's one thing that is interesting. Police recovered three nine

154
00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:43,080
Speaker 6: millimeters shell casings from inside the home. No firearm was

155
00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:45,240
Speaker 6: found at the scene. This wasn't like a murder, suicide

156
00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:48,320
Speaker 6: or aything because there's no firearm, but they recovered shell

157
00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:51,800
Speaker 6: casings from the home. Joseph, does this for you? Does

158
00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:54,560
Speaker 6: this in your mind? Does this mean to you that

159
00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:59,600
Speaker 6: he shot Spencer twice because that's still multiple and then

160
00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:02,280
Speaker 6: unique once or do you think he picked up a

161
00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:03,800
Speaker 6: couple of shell casings and then bolted?

162
00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:09,160
Speaker 8: Oh wow, dig your insight there, body. Yeah, so you're

163
00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:11,559
Speaker 8: bouncing around in the dark in the house where by

164
00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:15,280
Speaker 8: the way, whoever did this was familiar with the fact

165
00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:18,560
Speaker 8: that their bedroom was where it was. That just let

166
00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:22,280
Speaker 8: that sink in just for a second. And they're familiar

167
00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:26,120
Speaker 8: with this environment, They're that comfortable in here. So yeah,

168
00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:28,760
Speaker 8: to think about this is we're talking about a non

169
00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:33,240
Speaker 8: millimeter which traditionally there are some mount layers. However, traditionally

170
00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:38,520
Speaker 8: non milimeter platform is a semi automatic ground so as

171
00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:42,200
Speaker 8: you fire, this weapon is ejecting the casings. I've had

172
00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:45,280
Speaker 8: cases where individuals have gone back and picked up what

173
00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:48,440
Speaker 8: we refer to a spint brass okay, and they'll pocket it.

174
00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:52,600
Speaker 8: You know the thing about a spent casing, it's unpredictable

175
00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:55,560
Speaker 8: as to where it's going to bounce. It's not even

176
00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:59,920
Speaker 8: like flipping a coin. Okay. It's so because they're cylindrical,

177
00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:01,839
Speaker 8: so it can hit a hard surface, it can hit

178
00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:03,920
Speaker 8: a wall, it can go into the wed So if

179
00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:08,880
Speaker 8: you're if you're trying to mask yourself in any way forensically,

180
00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:12,839
Speaker 8: like with stritions, even on the ejection, the ejection stritions

181
00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:16,640
Speaker 8: that you have on a casing, you're going to be hard.

182
00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:18,760
Speaker 8: It's going to be it's difficult for us at a

183
00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:21,960
Speaker 8: crime scene, even with flashlights to fund spent cases. Just

184
00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:24,400
Speaker 8: wrap your mind around that, and then you think about

185
00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:27,280
Speaker 8: and I'm not saying he did this, but they keep

186
00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:29,920
Speaker 8: throwing out this term he was shot in multiple times

187
00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:34,040
Speaker 8: and yes, right, two is multiple? Okay, but we begin

188
00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:36,240
Speaker 8: to think about terms like overkill that we use all

189
00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:41,400
Speaker 8: the time. Was he shot multiple like multiple like four five?

190
00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:41,920
Speaker 4: Right?

191
00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:46,600
Speaker 8: Yeah? Yeah? Because of non amat, Yeah, you can have

192
00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:49,880
Speaker 8: you can have magazines that'll hold anywhere from if you're talking.

193
00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:53,280
Speaker 6: About my nine millimeter holds twelve, yeah, one, twelve and.

194
00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:56,400
Speaker 8: One and uh, there are certain platforms where you know,

195
00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:58,480
Speaker 8: I used to carry one on duty and it was

196
00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:01,080
Speaker 8: I think I carried a bar at a and it

197
00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:05,600
Speaker 8: was double stack seventeen rounds and so that's a lot

198
00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:09,200
Speaker 8: of rounds that you carry, and so yeah, what does

199
00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:12,960
Speaker 8: multiple mean? They're going to be able to if they

200
00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:15,719
Speaker 8: can get this weapon, the rounds that they recover, and

201
00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:17,760
Speaker 8: if they're laying on bed. This is kind of interesting too,

202
00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:20,120
Speaker 8: because you'll have rounds that if they're through and through,

203
00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:22,360
Speaker 8: if they're a close range and say they passed through

204
00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:24,760
Speaker 8: the chest and they passed through the rest of the tour,

205
00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:27,959
Speaker 8: so they would have taken this mattress out of this house,

206
00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:29,960
Speaker 8: and they're going to have to cut that mattress into

207
00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:34,200
Speaker 8: and they'll recover the rounds themselves and try to match

208
00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:38,880
Speaker 8: up the straations on a question. What's referred to in

209
00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:42,640
Speaker 8: forensic circles as a questioned weapon, So you test fire

210
00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:45,080
Speaker 8: it and then you compare those. That's going to be

211
00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:47,000
Speaker 8: a big piece to this because I got to tell you,

212
00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:50,000
Speaker 8: the most fascinating thing to me is the fact this

213
00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:55,440
Speaker 8: individual felt comfortable. They're skulking around down this alleyway. I

214
00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:58,520
Speaker 8: knew when I saw that video that someone was very,

215
00:11:58,640 --> 00:11:59,560
Speaker 8: very comfortable in this.

216
00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:00,920
Speaker 4: That's in for sure.

217
00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:03,400
Speaker 8: I don't know, it's hard to say. I think that

218
00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:07,120
Speaker 8: here's here's an interesting thing. He's going across state lines. Now.

219
00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:09,360
Speaker 8: I don't know if that's going to involved the FBI

220
00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:11,640
Speaker 8: or not, but it's going to be fascinating to see

221
00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:14,079
Speaker 8: if they do a forensic gate analysis on him on

222
00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:19,360
Speaker 8: that videography and it's not it's not like toxicology all right,

223
00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:23,160
Speaker 8: where you've got this huge, massive numbers, but you can

224
00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:27,920
Speaker 8: qualify it. Okay, so does that gate match him? The

225
00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:30,240
Speaker 8: kind of the other problem with this is he's walking

226
00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:32,360
Speaker 8: over a frozen, snowy ground. I don't know about you guys.

227
00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:35,560
Speaker 8: I shuffle I walk in the snow because I'm terrified

228
00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:37,800
Speaker 8: of it. But you know, he's kind of his gait

229
00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:40,160
Speaker 8: is kind of unbalanced that you if you watch it,

230
00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:43,560
Speaker 8: sometimes they can do a match with that that that

231
00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:46,280
Speaker 8: might come into play, and then all all of the

232
00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:48,240
Speaker 8: digital stuff that's that's at play.

233
00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:52,240
Speaker 5: Here's I have a question, Joseph, for anyone, do you

234
00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:56,199
Speaker 5: know if forensic gate analysis is something that's commonly used

235
00:12:56,240 --> 00:13:00,720
Speaker 5: in court cases or is it cutting edge new? Uh?

236
00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:05,040
Speaker 8: I've been asked this question several times because there's been

237
00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:12,440
Speaker 8: several cases recently where anywhere analysis exactly exactly where is

238
00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:16,840
Speaker 8: this has popped up? You know, with gata analysis, I

239
00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:19,720
Speaker 8: don't think that it has been discarded to the point

240
00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:24,000
Speaker 8: like odentology, well not odentology, but forensic BYTEmark analysis. At

241
00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:27,160
Speaker 8: this point, it all depends because we're getting really deep

242
00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:30,120
Speaker 8: into the digital world now and this goes to a

243
00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:33,080
Speaker 8: practice that's referred to in general that we're all familiar

244
00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:36,720
Speaker 8: with with biometrics, where wherether you're using your thumb to

245
00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:40,920
Speaker 8: open your phone or facial ide. Gata analysis is essentially

246
00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:46,439
Speaker 8: biometric based. Uh. But most people don't understand gata analysis

247
00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:48,920
Speaker 8: has got a long history outside of forensics. It's not

248
00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:52,000
Speaker 8: something that popped up. If you've got people like occupational therapists,

249
00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:55,000
Speaker 8: physical therapists and they're trying to help people, you know,

250
00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:58,360
Speaker 8: heal themselves by the way they walk. They'll actually do

251
00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:02,080
Speaker 8: videography on a gritted background to try to understand to

252
00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:04,440
Speaker 8: make a diagnosis. This is something that's been in practice

253
00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:06,679
Speaker 8: in medical science for a long time, and a lot

254
00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:10,000
Speaker 8: of stuff we do in forensics is actually based in medicine,

255
00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:15,320
Speaker 8: you know, in the medicine, the medicine application. A lot

256
00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:18,400
Speaker 8: of this other stuff spring forward in the forensic world

257
00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:20,920
Speaker 8: out of medicine. So I find it interesting. You know

258
00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:23,120
Speaker 8: that gata analysis is there. We'll see how the courts

259
00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:24,880
Speaker 8: deal with going down the road.

260
00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:27,800
Speaker 6: And you know, there's shellcasings that we just talked about,

261
00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:31,360
Speaker 6: there's the Bardol method of DNA or a DNA extraction.

262
00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:35,160
Speaker 6: There might be DNA on those showcasings, and a fingerprints.

263
00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:37,440
Speaker 6: I mean when you have to when you're loading these weapons,

264
00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:40,960
Speaker 6: you have to press hard with your fingers unless you're

265
00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:42,560
Speaker 6: using like a loader like I have to.

266
00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:46,040
Speaker 8: Yeah, So you're make an excellent point. So if people

267
00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:48,960
Speaker 8: will think about a magazine and no, it's not a clip.

268
00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:51,920
Speaker 8: A clip is very specific. So we have to use magazine.

269
00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:52,880
Speaker 8: Let's all say it together.

270
00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:56,800
Speaker 5: Magazine, magazine so magazine.

271
00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:59,800
Speaker 8: Yeah, so what you're doing if you're loading it projectile

272
00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:02,640
Speaker 8: by project our, round by round, you're pressing down with

273
00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:05,800
Speaker 8: your thumb every single time. So yet there's a potential

274
00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:09,040
Speaker 8: to leave a print, a fingerprint, but there's also also

275
00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:12,200
Speaker 8: the potential to leave behind some kind of touch DNA,

276
00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:14,920
Speaker 8: and they do have new methodologies that are a bit

277
00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:17,800
Speaker 8: more robust. We'll see what they recover off of these

278
00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:18,600
Speaker 8: spent cases.

279
00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:21,800
Speaker 5: We will see indeed, and we will keep you updated

280
00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:24,960
Speaker 5: on this case as it evolves, and stick around because

281
00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:28,160
Speaker 5: Joseph Scott Morgan, our forensics experts, stays with us where

282
00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:36,920
Speaker 5: unpacking major news True crime Tonight.

283
00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:44,120
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

284
00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:47,480
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with

285
00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:52,240
Speaker 2: Courtney Armstrong, Body Moven and it is an extraordinary Sunday

286
00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:55,880
Speaker 2: because we have our most favorite forensics expert, host of

287
00:15:55,920 --> 00:16:00,239
Speaker 2: the hit podcast Body Bags, Joseph Scott Morgan with us tonight.

288
00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:00,680
Speaker 3: Listen.

289
00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:01,600
Speaker 4: Big developments.

290
00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:04,840
Speaker 2: Finally an arrest in the double homicide of Spencer and

291
00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:08,440
Speaker 2: Monique Tepe. We'll be following this case as it unfolds

292
00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:11,480
Speaker 2: throughout the week. There's not a ton of information or

293
00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:15,800
Speaker 2: a backstory on the why motive other than what we've

294
00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:18,120
Speaker 2: shared already, but just please know that we'll be following

295
00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:22,760
Speaker 2: it closely. Now onto this next story. My goodness, could

296
00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:27,160
Speaker 2: you imagine being a grave robber? Let's go to a

297
00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:28,040
Speaker 2: talkback right now.

298
00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:31,720
Speaker 9: Hey, everybody, it's Tamar from New Jersey. I was hoping

299
00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:34,800
Speaker 9: you could elaborate on a case in Pennsylvania about a

300
00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:39,160
Speaker 9: modern day brave robber who was just arrested for dealing

301
00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:43,560
Speaker 9: over one hundred skeletons. Kind of crazy. Hopefully you can elaborate.

302
00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:46,280
Speaker 9: Thanks everybody for all you do. Love your show. You

303
00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:47,280
Speaker 9: guys are a bad fit.

304
00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:52,040
Speaker 5: Thank you so much for that talk back, and we

305
00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:56,480
Speaker 5: are here to elaborate just for you. Oh yeah yeah,

306
00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:59,200
Speaker 5: and we're so lucky that Joseph Scott Morgan's here to

307
00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:03,080
Speaker 5: do it with us. So just the brief synopsis of

308
00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:06,360
Speaker 5: what you're referring to, which is a crazy case. There's

309
00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:10,560
Speaker 5: a guy named Jonathan Gerlick. He's thirty four years old,

310
00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:14,399
Speaker 5: he's a Pennsylvanian, and he was arrested after being caught

311
00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:20,160
Speaker 5: stealing human remains from a cemetery. Authorities have recovered over

312
00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:24,840
Speaker 5: one hundred skulls and bodies from his house and storage locker,

313
00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:29,880
Speaker 5: and the accused, Girlic now faces dozens of charges if

314
00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:35,040
Speaker 5: this is burglary, abuse of a corps, desecration, and authorities

315
00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:40,320
Speaker 5: have been investigating a series of cemetery burglaries in Pennsylvania

316
00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:45,679
Speaker 5: after graves and mausoleums were reportedly disturbed between November twenty

317
00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:50,320
Speaker 5: twenty five and January of this year. Listen, we're eleven

318
00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:53,600
Speaker 5: days into the new year and this just started back

319
00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:59,359
Speaker 5: in November, the disturbances. So that's an insane amount of

320
00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:01,840
Speaker 5: stuff that's been stolen in a really short amount of time.

321
00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:07,200
Speaker 5: And Girlik thankfully was identified as a suspect. And this

322
00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:10,400
Speaker 5: is through a combination of tips and surveillance, vehicle and

323
00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:14,240
Speaker 5: phone tracking, as well as online activity that showed an

324
00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:19,400
Speaker 5: interest in skelton collecting and the sale of human remains.

325
00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:23,480
Speaker 5: So lots of good old school detective work. So, Joseph,

326
00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:27,320
Speaker 5: you know a ton about this case. What what should

327
00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:27,680
Speaker 5: we learn?

328
00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:28,520
Speaker 4: What do we need to know?

329
00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:33,320
Speaker 8: Look kind of I just got to drop drop this

330
00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:36,960
Speaker 8: bit of knowledge or is my perception? Okay, this guy

331
00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:39,600
Speaker 8: we had had a little talk earlier in the name

332
00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:43,119
Speaker 8: Geen came up and this for me, at least, the

333
00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:47,040
Speaker 8: motivation is completely different. I think that gen sexualized these bodies.

334
00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:50,320
Speaker 8: This guy's an entrepreneur, okay, and I hate to say it,

335
00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:53,080
Speaker 8: you know, but that's the reality. When he walked in,

336
00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:56,600
Speaker 8: or when someone like him walks into a place like

337
00:18:56,720 --> 00:18:59,720
Speaker 8: Mount Mariah Cemetery, which is where this is in Delaware County,

338
00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:05,240
Speaker 8: penns Sylvania, he's viewing this as if it's a box store.

339
00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:08,480
Speaker 8: Just let that sink in just for a second. He's

340
00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:13,560
Speaker 8: looking for opportunity here. And my position on this is

341
00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:16,720
Speaker 8: that it would seem as though he's going into mausoleums

342
00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:21,240
Speaker 8: because you know, when they found him or when they arrested him,

343
00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:24,520
Speaker 8: he had a crowbar with him and also a large screwdriver,

344
00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:29,280
Speaker 8: which means he's prying things. He's prying things open, and

345
00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:33,119
Speaker 8: mausoleums here. If you don't know a lot about mausoleums,

346
00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:35,960
Speaker 8: and many people don't, you know, it's kind of one

347
00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:39,440
Speaker 8: of the bits of the world that I occupy. Mausoleums

348
00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:43,080
Speaker 8: are meant for people that have money, Okay, going back

349
00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:46,800
Speaker 8: years and years, and Mount Mariah Cemetery, interestingly enough, is

350
00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:51,320
Speaker 8: a Victorian age cemetery. You know when mausoleums were individual

351
00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:54,000
Speaker 8: mausoleums was a big deal. It's like a display of wealth.

352
00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:57,159
Speaker 8: And so I think it was found in like eighteen fifty,

353
00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:01,120
Speaker 8: if I'm not mistaken. So you go into a crypt,

354
00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:03,080
Speaker 8: if you can pry the door open on the thing,

355
00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:05,880
Speaker 8: you get in there, and you can pry the facing

356
00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:10,680
Speaker 8: off of an actual crypt itself within there, this big

357
00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:15,960
Speaker 8: slab perhaps, and then you get access to the casketed remains,

358
00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:19,439
Speaker 8: if they're not casketed, because in some cases, like in

359
00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:22,560
Speaker 8: New Orleans, they will put bodies on a shelf and

360
00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:25,000
Speaker 8: then as the body's decay, they'll take up room and

361
00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:28,560
Speaker 8: they'll push them off into an astuary behind there. But

362
00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:32,879
Speaker 8: probably with these types, you've got bodies that are static

363
00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,480
Speaker 8: here where these grapes are not being reused. And here's

364
00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:39,040
Speaker 8: the thing about it. You're not just going after skeletal remains.

365
00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:43,880
Speaker 8: You're going after jewelry. Okay, let that sink in. These people,

366
00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:47,399
Speaker 8: many of them are very ostentatious. They would have a burial.

367
00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:50,600
Speaker 8: You might be buried with pennant, solid gold pendance, or

368
00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:54,520
Speaker 8: any enough necklaces. And I've seen all kinds of things

369
00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:58,840
Speaker 8: come out of graves of the wealthy over the years,

370
00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:03,560
Speaker 8: and so it's an interesting thing. But what's more interesting

371
00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:06,040
Speaker 8: is what he was actually doing with his remains.

372
00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:09,919
Speaker 4: Do you think what go ahead? Please? I was going

373
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:10,240
Speaker 4: to say.

374
00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:12,639
Speaker 5: When you're saying what he's doing, are you referring to

375
00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:17,000
Speaker 5: the fact that Girlik the accused, admitted that he stole

376
00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:20,360
Speaker 5: the remains to sell some of them online.

377
00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:24,320
Speaker 8: Yeah, I am, And there was and forgive me, I

378
00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:27,680
Speaker 8: can grow the top of my head, but this, uh,

379
00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:33,959
Speaker 8: there was Facebook group. Okay, So and allegedly, allegedly what

380
00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:37,280
Speaker 8: had happened is that there is apparently something that's floating

381
00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:40,159
Speaker 8: about right now that he traveled from the Philly area.

382
00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:45,160
Speaker 8: I go sell a skull. So now, and I think

383
00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:48,080
Speaker 8: I'd mentioned this to you guys. He's got all kinds

384
00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:50,880
Speaker 8: of trouble on him now because he's traveling across state

385
00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:54,760
Speaker 8: line to sell the stolen merchant It's I hate to

386
00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:58,960
Speaker 8: say merchandise. It sounds so disrespectful to remain what you mean? Yeah,

387
00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:01,199
Speaker 8: and he's going in there. So now he's got the

388
00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:03,920
Speaker 8: FEDS on his back relative to this, because he's he's

389
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:07,440
Speaker 8: actually in the trade of human remains. I've covered several cases,

390
00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:10,919
Speaker 8: not exactly like this on body backs, but where parts

391
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:14,240
Speaker 8: are being bodies are being cut into pieces and those

392
00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:17,120
Speaker 8: are being sold as well. Those are the press dead

393
00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:19,359
Speaker 8: and there's been several funeral homes. I think there's a

394
00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:23,840
Speaker 8: couple out in Colorado specifically that we're harvesting remains doing this.

395
00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:26,959
Speaker 8: This is not where they're cracking open a grave. This

396
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:28,760
Speaker 8: is something completely different.

397
00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:33,040
Speaker 6: Because those are ethically sourced, right like there's.

398
00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:36,720
Speaker 8: Allegedly some of these are not though some of those

399
00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:39,120
Speaker 8: are not the cases that we covered, and people are

400
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:42,160
Speaker 8: looking at hard federal time over this. I can only

401
00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:45,720
Speaker 8: imagine for this guy. And here's something else. I'm sorry, guys,

402
00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,639
Speaker 8: I don't know if I agree with this. I just

403
00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:50,440
Speaker 8: don't think that this is the first time out of

404
00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:51,440
Speaker 8: the barn for this guy back.

405
00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:52,480
Speaker 4: I don't think so either.

406
00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:56,520
Speaker 8: I think that what from an investigative standpoint, I want

407
00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:58,800
Speaker 8: to know where he has been hanging his hat over

408
00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:01,679
Speaker 8: the last years. This guy's in his thirties, and this

409
00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:04,560
Speaker 8: is not something you just spring into. You have to

410
00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:08,040
Speaker 8: show up with the tools and understand the nature of

411
00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:11,960
Speaker 8: the environment, be comfortable in that environment, and be careful

412
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:16,240
Speaker 8: and be comfortable with handling human remains. This guy allegedly

413
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:18,320
Speaker 8: when they pulled him over, he had human remains on

414
00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:20,920
Speaker 8: the back seat of his car. All right, Now, that's

415
00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:24,280
Speaker 8: a comfort level even for me. I would not There's

416
00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:27,320
Speaker 8: no way. I've been around thousands of dead bodies. There's

417
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:28,800
Speaker 8: no way I would feel comfortable with that.

418
00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:31,000
Speaker 6: Or you had to have a permit when I went

419
00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:33,000
Speaker 6: and picked up my mom's I had to have a

420
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:37,360
Speaker 6: permit to transport remains when I was driving home from

421
00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:38,119
Speaker 6: the funeral home.

422
00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:39,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, yeah, you do.

423
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:46,480
Speaker 8: And so when you get to his domicile, a place

424
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:50,359
Speaker 8: where he's hanging his hat. Now, when they walked in, y'all,

425
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:54,399
Speaker 8: they walked into this basement, it was like something out

426
00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:57,160
Speaker 8: of a horror movie. You know, You've got all manner

427
00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:01,000
Speaker 8: of remains down there, and the age range is extreme,

428
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:02,880
Speaker 8: I mean from one end to the other. I'll put

429
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:05,440
Speaker 8: it to you that way, right, That's how horrible this is.

430
00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:08,800
Speaker 8: And so you've got potentially suspended remains down there, and

431
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:13,520
Speaker 8: you've got bodies that are disarticulated. It would seem that

432
00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:16,400
Speaker 8: there might be some that are still intact. I don't know.

433
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:19,120
Speaker 8: And then you begin to think about this guy's trying

434
00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 8: to sell these Well, what's the status of how he's

435
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,200
Speaker 8: trying to sell them. Do you want to Hey, I've

436
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:25,400
Speaker 8: got a whole body here you can buy that. I've

437
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:27,760
Speaker 8: got skull. And let me tell you something. I've done

438
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:30,480
Speaker 8: the research. I know whose skull this is. Boy, this

439
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:31,679
Speaker 8: would be a real pridude.

440
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:34,520
Speaker 6: This is true crime tonight and iHeartRadio. We're talking true

441
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,760
Speaker 6: crime all the time. We're talking about the Philadelphia grave robber.

442
00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:39,919
Speaker 6: And if you have any questions, you want to hear

443
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:41,359
Speaker 6: from you and give us a call. Eighty eight thirty

444
00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:47,920
Speaker 6: one Crime Joseph. Do you think is it? And these

445
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:51,199
Speaker 6: mausoleums they to me in my in my head, I

446
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:55,760
Speaker 6: haven't seen a lot, but they're very like there's like

447
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:57,840
Speaker 6: concrete right in marble right.

448
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:01,119
Speaker 4: Could he do this alone? Did he bring these things on?

449
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,280
Speaker 8: And that's an excellent question. I don't know, you know,

450
00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:06,600
Speaker 8: I know that like if you see a body of

451
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:10,879
Speaker 8: subterranean burial where you've got this kind of slab on

452
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:13,560
Speaker 8: top of the ground, many times it'll be imprinted or

453
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,040
Speaker 8: etched with things. Those things are very very heavy. As

454
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:17,480
Speaker 8: a matter of fact. They set them in there with

455
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,400
Speaker 8: like a strap like a crane, and they're sat down

456
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 8: by the way if anybody walks in a graveyard, it's

457
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,639
Speaker 8: disrespectful to step on a grave anyway. Never step in

458
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:28,520
Speaker 8: the center of one of these things. That's the weakest point.

459
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,520
Speaker 8: It will collapse in a crack and you can find

460
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 8: yourself down into the grave at that point in time.

461
00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 8: Stay away from these things. I'm telling you, they're very dangerous.

462
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,520
Speaker 8: So yeah, it's a monumental undertaking for one person to

463
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 8: do this. What's really going to be the tail of

464
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:46,720
Speaker 8: the tape here is what did the interior of the

465
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:48,960
Speaker 8: mausoleums look like? First off, you're going to have tool

466
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:51,560
Speaker 8: marks that they're going to be able to match up

467
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:55,360
Speaker 8: with a crowbar and the screwdriver on these doors. And

468
00:25:55,400 --> 00:26:00,960
Speaker 8: then how you can get an eye idea of pacing

469
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 8: relative to this. Did he take a hammer to the

470
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:05,919
Speaker 8: external thing and try to particulate it and break it

471
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 8: off piece by piece or did he just kind of

472
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:10,239
Speaker 8: pry it and pull it down on the ground and

473
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 8: then he's just pulling the casket out and leaving it

474
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:17,280
Speaker 8: there on the ground and then digging through it. All

475
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:20,919
Speaker 8: of this is almost it's almost for too much for

476
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 8: many people to fathom. But you know, you had mentioned

477
00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:30,359
Speaker 8: body that this goes back eon. You know, you just

478
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 8: look at you know, I think you had mentioned the Egypt, right,

479
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:33,160
Speaker 8: I did.

480
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, we were talking about for the show, and I

481
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 6: had mentioned, you know, we've been you know, robbing graves

482
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:43,880
Speaker 6: for a long time, and I mentioned Egypt specifically, and

483
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 6: you know, taking those remains from where they were meant

484
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:50,199
Speaker 6: to be, right and despiring them for profit. And this

485
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:53,000
Speaker 6: is essentially kind of what this guy's done or not,

486
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:53,640
Speaker 6: I don't.

487
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:54,959
Speaker 4: Know, but not for nothing.

488
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:59,360
Speaker 5: In ancient Egyptian times, people were known to be buried

489
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:03,200
Speaker 5: with they're riches. Oh so you knew you were going

490
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:04,960
Speaker 5: to hit the pay dirt if you were in it

491
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:08,800
Speaker 5: for money. Right now, it seems like that would be

492
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 5: incredibly hit or missing that you would.

493
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,000
Speaker 8: It would be, it would be. That's why I think

494
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 8: that you know, you get into this area where you're

495
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 8: talking about your targeting mausoleums, that that's the idea of well, okay,

496
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:23,399
Speaker 8: if you even take that, especially because the name is

497
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:25,840
Speaker 8: on it, the name is on it, And then wouldn't

498
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:29,320
Speaker 8: it be interesting if he went in and researched locally, right,

499
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:31,919
Speaker 8: you know, wh who's buried in these things? What value?

500
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:33,240
Speaker 8: Can I add? One more thing?

501
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:33,440
Speaker 5: Here.

502
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 8: I got to tell you, this is a very terrifying

503
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:39,239
Speaker 8: aspect of this, and people might not be thinking about this.

504
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:43,639
Speaker 8: These bodies when they were embalmed. If you go back,

505
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:47,280
Speaker 8: you know, just several decades, guys, they're using heavy metals.

506
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 8: So whatever he's dragging out of those mauslesiums.

507
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 6: For clarification, for like the embalming purp, the emolving process,

508
00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:56,760
Speaker 6: or we're.

509
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 8: Talking about things mercury, those sorts of things, Okay, And

510
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 8: so if they are pulling these remains out of there,

511
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 8: the half life on the stuff, chemical half life on

512
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 8: these things is resilient. And he stored them in his house.

513
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:14,120
Speaker 8: First off, he's exposing himself to all of this toxicity

514
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:19,080
Speaker 8: and he's exposing his neighbors to this. There's also storage

515
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 8: unit involved, allegedly, and so if there remains in the

516
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 8: storage unit, some of that stuff could leach out. I'm

517
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 8: just spitballing here. So if you think the FBI's bad,

518
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 8: get the EPA on your back, because they're going to

519
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 8: have to send a cleaning crew out. You know, the EPA.

520
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 8: I can almost the state of Pennsylvania or the EPA

521
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 8: is going to show up. They're going to inspect this

522
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,960
Speaker 8: area and they're going to do measurements. They will. I've

523
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 8: seen it. I saw it in the the the Tri

524
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 8: County Mortuary scandal, where we had hundreds and hundreds of

525
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:53,920
Speaker 8: bodies that were just laying out on the ground. The

526
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:57,320
Speaker 8: EPA came in there and just you know, just wrecked

527
00:28:57,360 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 8: that place because they were worried about heavy metals getting

528
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,720
Speaker 8: to the groundwater. And so they're going to have to

529
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 8: go in and they're going to have to do a

530
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 8: clean up on this thing. This is going to be

531
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,360
Speaker 8: a hasmat situation. I'm concerned about the people that went

532
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 8: down there and worked this in that basement or in

533
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 8: that confined area, and they're exposed to all these remains.

534
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:17,040
Speaker 8: And we don't know what he was doing with the bones,

535
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 8: if he did any kind of I don't know any

536
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 8: kind of design on the bones, why he's trying to

537
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 8: augment them using any kind of tools. He's creating a

538
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 8: kind of a histamine in the air. That's a big

539
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 8: concern here. A. Yeah, you're absolutely right, and so that's

540
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 8: one aspect that's very terrifying about that. It's not and

541
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 8: as horrible as it is, it's awful that these graves

542
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 8: have been robbed. But the exposure from a public health standpoint,

543
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 8: I think is certainly something to put you back on

544
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 8: your heels here to think about. And I guarantee you

545
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 8: the authorities are thinking about. And if they're not, I

546
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 8: hope they hear this episode tonight.

547
00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 4: Oh my goodness.

548
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:00,200
Speaker 6: So he could have been maybe I don't know, I'm

549
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 6: and i'm he could maybe drilling into these bones, aerosolizing

550
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:05,960
Speaker 6: these you.

551
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 8: Know, thrilling, drilling, saw in any any number of things. Uh.

552
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 8: And there a lot of people I've found these grave robbers. Uh.

553
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:18,960
Speaker 8: Many times they'll try to take a skeletal remain and

554
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 8: put you know, I've seen I've seen them embossed with

555
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 8: like sterling silver. You know in Southeast Asia, they're actually

556
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:29,320
Speaker 8: drinking cups that are made out of human skulls. I've

557
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 8: seen those, uh in their silver line the interior of

558
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 8: the skull. So you know, you think about all of that.

559
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:39,240
Speaker 8: What's he doing down there? Is this merely a storage area?

560
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 8: How much is he fiddling around with these things? And

561
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 8: what's going to be the real The real interesting thing

562
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:54,959
Speaker 8: here is if you get forensic genetic genealogy involved in

563
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 8: this to try can you imagine sitting in your home

564
00:30:58,360 --> 00:30:59,720
Speaker 8: and all of a sudden you get a knock from

565
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 8: the cop and they say, look, we're looking into a case.

566
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 8: And it would seem as though your great great grandmother

567
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 8: may have had her gray violated. Are you related?

568
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 4: I don't even know what I do. I don't even

569
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 4: know what I would say.

570
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 5: Listen, later in the show, we're going to be talking

571
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:20,840
Speaker 5: about Luigi Manngioan's federal court appearance from last week.

572
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:24,480
Speaker 4: There's a lot to get through on that one as well.

573
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,719
Speaker 5: The families of the Idaho student murder victims filed a

574
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 5: new and explosive lawsuit. But first, body, you are going

575
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:37,160
Speaker 5: to fill us in on a Utah woman who has

576
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 5: been up to some very nefarious things.

577
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 6: Yeah, so this is why I've been following for a minute.

578
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:46,000
Speaker 6: But things are starting to ramp up in her trial

579
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 6: is getting ready to start. So I kind of wanted

580
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:51,040
Speaker 6: to start talking about it because I think it's gonna

581
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 6: I think people are going to want to hear about

582
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 6: this one. So, thirty five year old Utah woman Curry

583
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 6: Richens is facing numerous charges relimated to the twenty twenty

584
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 6: two death of her husband, Eric Richins, who died by

585
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 6: fentanyl poisoning. Her charges include aggravated murder, attempted aggravated murder, fraud, forgery,

586
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 6: and money laundering. Corey Richards's case has gained national attention

587
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 6: for many reasons, including a letter that was found in

588
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 6: her cell that prosecutors alleged the accused killer Corey Richins

589
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:29,560
Speaker 6: wrote as instructions for the family members how they should

590
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 6: lie to the authorities, as well as a children's book

591
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:36,880
Speaker 6: about grief that accused killer Corey Richards published following the

592
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 6: death of her husband, Eric Richins. On January seventh, the

593
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:44,120
Speaker 6: hearing was held to determine which expert witness will be

594
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 6: permitted to testify in her February trial. Again, this court

595
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 6: hearing is happening very quickly. So this is what happened.

596
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 6: The accused killer, Corey Richins and her husband, the victim,

597
00:32:57,560 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 6: Eric Richards, married in twenty thirteen and they signed a

598
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:03,760
Speaker 6: I'm sorry, I have a little coffer right here. They

599
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 6: signed a prenup and most likely or i'm sorry, kept

600
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 6: most of the victim's husband's Eric Richards's business interests and

601
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 6: property in his name, while allowing the accused Corey to

602
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 6: inherit certain aspects or certain assets if he died first.

603
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:22,320
Speaker 4: Okay.

604
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:27,480
Speaker 6: So between twenties fifteen and twenty seventeen, Corey Richins reportedly

605
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 6: experienced financial difficulties and started taking money from her husband

606
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 6: to support her real estate ventures. She wanted to be

607
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:38,160
Speaker 6: successful on her own, so she started taking money from

608
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 6: him without telling him. From twenty nineteen to twenty twenty,

609
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 6: Corey Richins is accused of secretly opening a bank account

610
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 6: and borrowing funds from Eric without his knowledge, allegedly taking

611
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 6: nearly five hundred thousand dollars. I mean we're not talking,

612
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 6: you know, a couple hundred bucks. This is half a

613
00:33:56,440 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 6: million dollars from him without his knowledge, okay, And that

614
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 6: he found out, and then he's changed his will and

615
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:08,760
Speaker 6: placed all his assets into a trust for their three children.

616
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 6: And by the way, all their children are under eleven

617
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:15,440
Speaker 6: years old. These are little kids, okay. So from twenty

618
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:21,239
Speaker 6: twenty to twenty twenty two, Eric named that trust as

619
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:25,280
Speaker 6: the beneficiary of his life insurance. So if he dies,

620
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 6: all the money goes into the trust, and the trust

621
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:30,280
Speaker 6: is only accessible by the children.

622
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:30,760
Speaker 4: Okay.

623
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:36,800
Speaker 6: And he apparently he started saying that his wife was

624
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 6: going to poison him, and then wow, yeah, okay. So

625
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 6: then in on February fourteenth, after dinner with his wife,

626
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 6: he reportedly became very sick and told a friend he

627
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:50,680
Speaker 6: thought his wife was trying to poison him.

628
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:51,160
Speaker 4: Like I said.

629
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:55,440
Speaker 6: Then March fourth, just a couple weeks later, Corey said,

630
00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 6: Corey Richins, the alleged killer here, said she found him

631
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:03,839
Speaker 6: dead in their bed. An autopsy showed he died from

632
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 6: an oral ventanyl overdose, and he had about five times

633
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 6: the lethal dose in his system.

634
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:13,279
Speaker 4: Joseph, I have.

635
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 6: To know how what does five times the uh lethal

636
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:22,160
Speaker 6: dose of ventanyl look like? Like? How how big is this?

637
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:24,799
Speaker 6: Is this something that can be drank? Like how would

638
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:25,240
Speaker 6: this happen?

639
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:28,280
Speaker 8: Yeah, that can be dissolved in a liquid or place

640
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:30,799
Speaker 8: you know, you can place inmice sandwich if you wanted to,

641
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 8: well did yeah, go ahead, I'm sorry.

642
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:36,319
Speaker 6: The Wag the Dog letter or walk the Wag the

643
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:38,239
Speaker 6: Walk the Dog letter that she wrote that they found

644
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:42,839
Speaker 6: in her prison or her jail cell mentioned gummies. Could

645
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:45,160
Speaker 6: she could she sprinkle that in some gummies?

646
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:46,040
Speaker 10: Nor?

647
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean with a gummy you could actually insert

648
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:51,600
Speaker 8: it in there and no one, Oh really wiser? Oh yeah,

649
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:53,840
Speaker 8: it'd be masked. The taste of it would be masked.

650
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,279
Speaker 8: I'll put you this way. We just would just a

651
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:03,359
Speaker 8: lethal just a lethal dosage of fentanyl. You're talking and

652
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:07,320
Speaker 8: everybody at home, and I urge everybody if you're interested

653
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 8: in this, just to see the volume of this, a

654
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:15,160
Speaker 8: lethal level of fentanyl, if you will go to your

655
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 8: kitchen and get your salt checker out. Okay, get your

656
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:22,040
Speaker 8: salt checker out, all right, and sprinkle into the palm

657
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 8: of your hand grains of salt. The equivalent of twelve

658
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:31,759
Speaker 8: grains of salt is a lethal level. Wow, just let

659
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:35,279
Speaker 8: them sink in just for a second. So powerful this is.

660
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:38,360
Speaker 6: In this case, it would be sixty grains of salt.

661
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:39,719
Speaker 6: That's how small.

662
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 4: And that's fine.

663
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:44,879
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, approximating And it's hard, you know, it's hard

664
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:47,399
Speaker 8: to it's not what they could do. And I can

665
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 8: almost guarantee you because they're calling it lethal. All right. Now,

666
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:55,080
Speaker 8: Fentanyl is a therapeutic drug, all right. So with any

667
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:58,359
Speaker 8: kind of drug that we that we trace for at autopsy,

668
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:05,040
Speaker 8: there's actually therapeutic level. There's even a therapeutic level for heroin,

669
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:07,759
Speaker 8: all right. If you can imagine that there is in

670
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 8: other words, non lethal dosages you know how much could

671
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:12,919
Speaker 8: you ingest in not.

672
00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:18,879
Speaker 6: Tell people on palliative care, right, like.

673
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:20,680
Speaker 8: Yeah, and they and people think that fentanyl's and new think.

674
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:23,560
Speaker 8: It was firstly identified back in the fifties, all right,

675
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 8: and it was used in surgery, you know, to prevent nausea,

676
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:27,400
Speaker 8: to knock down nausea.

677
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:28,279
Speaker 10: Uh.

678
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,719
Speaker 8: And it has other it has It's had great utility.

679
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:34,439
Speaker 8: And then in the nineties people understood that you could

680
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:37,759
Speaker 8: use a transdermal patch and then people began to do

681
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 8: what was called multi patching, and so you'd get this

682
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:43,600
Speaker 8: boost or you and then they begin to synthesize the

683
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:46,719
Speaker 8: drug to the point where people are cooking it up

684
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 8: at home and you never know what the dosage is

685
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 8: going to be. I think one of my big questions

686
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 8: about this whole case from a pharmacological standpoint, from a

687
00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 8: forensic standpoint, how she access it now, who she's going,

688
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:03,719
Speaker 8: who's specifically is she going to facilitate acquisition of the

689
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 8: drug well, and the application.

690
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:06,200
Speaker 4: Of the state.

691
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 6: The state is alleging that in early twenty two she

692
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 6: purchased these fentanyl multiple times from a friend, referring to

693
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:17,920
Speaker 6: it as Michael Jackson's stuff. Yeah, and king about nine

694
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:20,319
Speaker 6: hundred dollars per purchase, so she was storing it.

695
00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:24,000
Speaker 8: YEA, what was what was Michael Jackson's famous last words.

696
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:26,319
Speaker 8: I just heard this the other day. More milk, right,

697
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:28,839
Speaker 8: More milk is what he wanted in milk was what

698
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:33,919
Speaker 8: the he referred to that was being administered to him,

699
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:37,880
Speaker 8: which was like a surgical anesthesia and so and he

700
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:41,719
Speaker 8: had become penitent upon So yeah, and you understand this,

701
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:45,080
Speaker 8: and it's it's your snake bit man. I'm telling you.

702
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:48,239
Speaker 8: This stuff is so evil and there's a lot of

703
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:50,399
Speaker 8: drugs out there that are laced with this stuff now,

704
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:53,040
Speaker 8: and there's a myriad of reasons why people do that

705
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:55,759
Speaker 8: to you know, the high will be better, it's going

706
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:57,799
Speaker 8: to be more potent, all those sorts of things. But

707
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:01,400
Speaker 8: here's the thing about it. You know, I've given us

708
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:03,319
Speaker 8: a lot of thought because, like you upcovered the case

709
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:06,799
Speaker 8: for a while, she thought that she could get away

710
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:08,040
Speaker 8: with this because it was finnel.

711
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 4: This is true crime tonight.

712
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:14,800
Speaker 5: If you are just joining us, we are talking about

713
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:18,600
Speaker 5: the case of the woman who is alleged to have

714
00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:22,440
Speaker 5: killed her husband with fentanyl. This is out of Utah,

715
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:26,920
Speaker 5: and we are joined by forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan.

716
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:29,680
Speaker 5: If you want to chime in with a call, we're

717
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:32,400
Speaker 5: here at eight to eighty three one Crime, or you

718
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:36,839
Speaker 5: can always hit us on the talkbacks. Joseph, is there

719
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:43,600
Speaker 5: a difference in potency between liquid and powder ventanyl?

720
00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 8: I can't really answer that definitively. I will say that

721
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:53,760
Speaker 8: it should all be treated the same, with the same

722
00:39:54,080 --> 00:40:01,120
Speaker 8: reverential and cautionary approach to it. And the delivery method

723
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 8: is a big deal here, right How are you going

724
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:05,880
Speaker 8: to get it into their system? I find it really interesting. Again,

725
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:09,440
Speaker 8: you guys had mentioned the fact that he had gotten

726
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:12,279
Speaker 8: sick earlier. You know, I think that she's playing around

727
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:16,719
Speaker 8: with it. Yeah, she's trying to dial in the dose it.

728
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:19,759
Speaker 8: You know, what can I do? And maybe she would

729
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:21,719
Speaker 8: sit back, Maybe it was just a bit of a

730
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 8: dose it. And what you're going to experience with that

731
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:32,160
Speaker 8: is that there'll be potential nausea, They'll be uh feeling,

732
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:36,919
Speaker 8: you know, really drug down, perhaps sleepiness. It can push

733
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:40,520
Speaker 8: somebody toward the edge of coma very quickly. You're going

734
00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:44,960
Speaker 8: to have trouble. From a respiratory standpoint, it's it's dangerous

735
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:46,759
Speaker 8: to your stuff. And then once you get that dialed in.

736
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:49,000
Speaker 8: You say, okay, well I applied this amount at this

737
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:51,680
Speaker 8: particular time and then aunt the one thing she didn't

738
00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:56,280
Speaker 8: count on though, And this is this is interesting. Funerol

739
00:40:56,560 --> 00:41:01,600
Speaker 8: is now part I mean, it is rock solidly part

740
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:05,439
Speaker 8: of standard toxicology degree. Okay. It's not like some kind

741
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:09,040
Speaker 8: of exotic thing, you know, b ven them or you

742
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:13,279
Speaker 8: know something like that. That's it's crazy, right, it's not.

743
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:16,719
Speaker 8: It's not some weird, you know, exotic. This is part

744
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:19,960
Speaker 8: of who we are now, okay, as a society. So

745
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:22,600
Speaker 8: when a body rolls into the morgue and we draw

746
00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:26,279
Speaker 8: all the samples that we do at autopsy and we're

747
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:29,799
Speaker 8: testing blood and urine and and all those various things

748
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:32,880
Speaker 8: that we test, this is gonna pop. It's going to

749
00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:35,920
Speaker 8: show up. And I'm sure that when the forensic pathologists

750
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:38,240
Speaker 8: they probably got a phone call. This is how it happened.

751
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:43,400
Speaker 8: Toxicologists is assigned to this case got to read out okay,

752
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 8: because they're doing all of you know, they're doing all

753
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:49,399
Speaker 8: of their their testing and everything. It's like, I need

754
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:51,839
Speaker 8: to get the pathologists on the line right now. Guess

755
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:53,840
Speaker 8: what you're looking at. And this is probably before you

756
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:56,080
Speaker 8: got the written record. He says, this guy's got phenyl

757
00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:58,719
Speaker 8: on board. He's got phenol on board. Now, what you

758
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:02,360
Speaker 8: can see at autopsy has Sometimes you will see with

759
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:04,720
Speaker 8: cases like this, just like with any kind of opiate

760
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:07,839
Speaker 8: based substance, the lungs will get heavy, the brain will

761
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:12,720
Speaker 8: be congested. But that doesn't necessarily mean that that is fentanyl.

762
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:16,239
Speaker 8: It's just one of the kind of associated factors. And

763
00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:18,680
Speaker 8: then you combine that with what you're seeing on the

764
00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:22,560
Speaker 8: top screen, and man, you're talking about five times. That's

765
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 8: why he would have hopped on That's why he would

766
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:27,000
Speaker 8: have hopped on the phone really quickly. We need to

767
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:29,759
Speaker 8: have a conversation. Oh, by the way, call the detectives

768
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:31,600
Speaker 8: as well. We need to have a sit down at

769
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:32,160
Speaker 8: this point time.

770
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:37,759
Speaker 6: When somebody dies from a fentanyl overdose today because they

771
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:45,120
Speaker 6: took maybe a xanax, let's say that had fentanyl in it, is.

772
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:46,399
Speaker 4: What would what would?

773
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:47,080
Speaker 3: Is it?

774
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:51,399
Speaker 6: Is it always like this crazy amount higher than the

775
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 6: lethal dose, like five times higher or is it typically Okay,

776
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:58,440
Speaker 6: so it's it can vary, Yeah, it.

777
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:06,000
Speaker 8: Can, and sometimes it is physiologically metabolically depended upon the person. Okay,

778
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:09,279
Speaker 8: first off, if they're a user, Uh, they'll have a

779
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:12,440
Speaker 8: certain level of tolerance. Federol is hard to help a

780
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 8: tolerance for, though, I think particularly if it's being cooked

781
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:19,799
Speaker 8: up at somebody's house, because you never know what you're

782
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:23,799
Speaker 8: going to get, and then you know, even I'll tell you,

783
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:26,359
Speaker 8: I'll tell you this. Even body weight plays into it.

784
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:28,719
Speaker 8: You know, how much can your body tolerate as it's

785
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:30,760
Speaker 8: being distributed through through your body.

786
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:33,400
Speaker 6: I just wondered if the pathologists knew, like, oh, this

787
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:36,880
Speaker 6: was a poisoning, you know, because it is like beyond

788
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:38,160
Speaker 6: well normal.

789
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:40,600
Speaker 8: Okay, that's an excellent question, because you know, one of

790
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:43,000
Speaker 8: the things that we do is we want to know

791
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:46,920
Speaker 8: they're they're like with a medical legal death investigator like

792
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:49,200
Speaker 8: I was in my former career. I want to know

793
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:52,840
Speaker 8: about this personal this person's personal history. I want to

794
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:55,360
Speaker 8: know about their social history. I want to know have

795
00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:58,440
Speaker 8: they ever used drugs before, because if they've never, if

796
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:02,160
Speaker 8: there's no indication this person's ever used opiates at all,

797
00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:04,960
Speaker 8: except for maybe they got a surgery and somebody said, well,

798
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:07,960
Speaker 8: here's a three pack blister pack, take these as needed

799
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:12,000
Speaker 8: for pain. Other than that, if the person has no history,

800
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:14,960
Speaker 8: that's a huge red flag for us, right you've got

801
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:17,399
Speaker 8: fentnel floating around the sky. He's not suffering from any

802
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:20,320
Speaker 8: kind of problems. And the next call I'm going to

803
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:22,440
Speaker 8: make this to his private physician, We'll say, hey, did

804
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:26,440
Speaker 8: you give this guy fentnel for something? Because that's you

805
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:30,000
Speaker 8: might have an intimate relationship with your spouse, but you

806
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:32,680
Speaker 8: got a really intimate relationship with your doc. They know

807
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:35,440
Speaker 8: what you've been prescribed. And the doctor's like, hell, no,

808
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:40,000
Speaker 8: I've never given a wal right, Yeah, it is so bizarre.

809
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:43,279
Speaker 8: Then you start digging around his social world and say

810
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:46,440
Speaker 8: is he coming in contact with drug dealers? And then

811
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:48,960
Speaker 8: I'm thinking, well, did somebody slip him something?

812
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:49,359
Speaker 1: Right?

813
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 8: And in this case kind of seems like a y'all right.

814
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:56,680
Speaker 6: Well, in this Walk the Dog letter that surfaced, prosecutors

815
00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:00,640
Speaker 6: are saying it showed that the accused Corey Richins, directed

816
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 6: family members on how to testify, which is witness tempering.

817
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:07,080
Speaker 6: The accused killer. Corey Richm's lawyers argued that it was

818
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:10,080
Speaker 6: part of a fictional novel she was writing about a

819
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:12,839
Speaker 6: prison s day. Can you believe this? Have you guys

820
00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:15,520
Speaker 6: seen this letter? It's handwritten. They found it in her cell.

821
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:20,040
Speaker 6: They're using it against her. Her defense is asking to

822
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:22,920
Speaker 6: move or dismiss the trial, claiming the letter going public

823
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:26,560
Speaker 6: because it is accessible. The letter went public, claiming that

824
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:29,520
Speaker 6: the letter going public violated a gag order and made

825
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:32,520
Speaker 6: a fair trial impossible, and the judge rejected this motion,

826
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:37,759
Speaker 6: saying media coverage had been extensive but not disqualifying. So

827
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:40,080
Speaker 6: we're going to keep following this. The trial is starting

828
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:42,960
Speaker 6: in February, and we'll keep you posted on what happens.

829
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:48,800
Speaker 5: This one is a doozy and a layered one at that. Joseph,

830
00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:52,520
Speaker 5: We're always so grateful when you come, and we are

831
00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:56,440
Speaker 5: smarter after we have spent time together. So thanks is

832
00:45:56,480 --> 00:46:00,200
Speaker 5: always for joining us. And anyone who wants more our

833
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:05,040
Speaker 5: professor Joseph Scott Morgan and who doesn't canon should find

834
00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:09,240
Speaker 5: him as the host of the incredible hit podcast body Bags,

835
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:13,320
Speaker 5: and you get to hear Joseph Scott Morgan dive deep

836
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:18,240
Speaker 5: into the forensic nitty gritty of true crime cases, new ones,

837
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:23,400
Speaker 5: old ones, always with a twist and forensic layers.

838
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:27,319
Speaker 4: So thank you. You make our Sundays great. It was

839
00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:29,040
Speaker 4: so good to see you happy here.

840
00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:34,279
Speaker 8: Everybody every time out in true Crime Tonight World. I

841
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:36,319
Speaker 8: love you guys, y'all take care and I hope you

842
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:37,799
Speaker 8: have a fantastic New Year.

843
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:41,880
Speaker 5: Yes, and stick around because at the top of the hour,

844
00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:45,920
Speaker 5: Luigi Mangione is back in federal court. The death penalty

845
00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:50,080
Speaker 5: is hanging on a technical legal argument, and later we're

846
00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:52,839
Speaker 5: going to dive deep into the Pamela's smart case True

847
00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:55,160
Speaker 5: Crime Tonight.

848
00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:07,000
Speaker 6: This is True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we talk

849
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:09,640
Speaker 6: true crime all the time. I'm bindy moving and I'm

850
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:13,320
Speaker 6: here with Courtney Armstrong and Taha Tahas in the building,

851
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:16,560
Speaker 6: Joseph Stottberg and just left us. And don't forget if

852
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:19,000
Speaker 6: you miss any part of tonight's show or you want

853
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:20,640
Speaker 6: to go re listen to the first half when we

854
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:23,560
Speaker 6: had Joseph on No Sweat, you could always download it

855
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:26,160
Speaker 6: on the podcast And if you want to, if you

856
00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:27,440
Speaker 6: want to give us a call, give us a call

857
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:29,279
Speaker 6: at eighty to eight thirty one Crime or hit us

858
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:32,040
Speaker 6: up on our socials at True Crime Tonight's Show on

859
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:36,560
Speaker 6: TikTok and Instagram and True Crime Tonight on Facebook. Courtney,

860
00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:39,520
Speaker 6: I understand you've got an update for us on Luigi Manon.

861
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:43,439
Speaker 5: I do, indeed, And by the way you say MANGIONI

862
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:45,200
Speaker 5: I say, Mangio.

863
00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:48,800
Speaker 4: I forget both ways split. I mean it seems truly

864
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:53,560
Speaker 4: fifty to fifty split. I hope I said it right.

865
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:53,879
Speaker 8: I don't.

866
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:55,920
Speaker 6: I didn't want to. I was trying to be a

867
00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:59,759
Speaker 6: pred Oh well, there we go.

868
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:06,560
Speaker 5: Well, just on Friday, so two days ago, twenty seven

869
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:11,359
Speaker 5: year old Luigi Mangeon did appear in Manhattan federal court.

870
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:13,000
Speaker 4: For pre trial hearing.

871
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:17,640
Speaker 5: You'll remember that just thirteen months ago, December of twenty

872
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:23,440
Speaker 5: twenty four, Mangion allegedly fatally shot United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson.

873
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:28,359
Speaker 5: This happened early in the morning on a bustling Manhattan

874
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:35,880
Speaker 5: day on the sidewalk after Mangion allegedly stalked Brian Thompson,

875
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:41,080
Speaker 5: the CEO, online and in person. Now, Majio was captured

876
00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:46,640
Speaker 5: five days later in Altoona, Pennsylvania after a nationwide manhunt,

877
00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:51,400
Speaker 5: which we've spoken about quite a bit. And right now

878
00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:56,080
Speaker 5: he's facing both state and federal murder charges. And while

879
00:48:56,120 --> 00:49:00,759
Speaker 5: the judge made no rulings on Friday, they did indicate

880
00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:04,879
Speaker 5: a likely timeline for mange oone's federal trial.

881
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:08,919
Speaker 4: Oh really, okay, interesting, all right, So.

882
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:11,720
Speaker 5: There's a bunch of things that happened at this hearing.

883
00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:17,520
Speaker 5: So Mangione appeared in in prison garb. His hands were free,

884
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:22,480
Speaker 5: and the courtroom was filled with supporters, mostly were young women.

885
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:27,000
Speaker 6: And I've seen, yes, I so yeah, I've seen Laura

886
00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:30,800
Speaker 6: Conin's done some pretty good reporting outside the courtroom and

887
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:33,880
Speaker 6: she was posting videos from outside the courtroom. She was

888
00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:36,920
Speaker 6: interviewing some of the people that were there in support

889
00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:40,440
Speaker 6: of Luigi. And let me tell you, these were all young,

890
00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:44,440
Speaker 6: beautiful and you know, well, you know, well spoken, they

891
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:48,600
Speaker 6: were very articulate, they seemed very smart women in their

892
00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:52,320
Speaker 6: support of Luigi. And you know there were some men too, obviously,

893
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:54,360
Speaker 6: and they were dressed in like Luigi costumes and stuff

894
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:55,880
Speaker 6: from Super Mario brothers.

895
00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:57,720
Speaker 4: But yeah, it's.

896
00:49:57,560 --> 00:50:01,239
Speaker 10: Been that's where the green is from the Luigi.

897
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:03,880
Speaker 6: Yeah, because super Mario is the red, right, he wears

898
00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:06,759
Speaker 6: the red, and Luigi, his brother, wears the green.

899
00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:07,480
Speaker 10: The green.

900
00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:10,080
Speaker 11: Yeah, okay, yeah, I saw some photos and even the

901
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:11,600
Speaker 11: gloves and everything there the free.

902
00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:13,040
Speaker 4: Luigi right right.

903
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:16,760
Speaker 6: But you know the women that Laura Lauren was interviewing,

904
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:18,799
Speaker 6: they were very smart and they were you able to

905
00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:21,640
Speaker 6: articulate that you know, they don't really think Luigi's responsible

906
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:21,840
Speaker 6: for this.

907
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:23,719
Speaker 10: I was.

908
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:24,600
Speaker 4: It was very interesting.

909
00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:29,680
Speaker 5: They don't think he's responsible, or they think that he

910
00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:33,160
Speaker 5: shot Brian Thompson, but that it was warranted.

911
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:36,839
Speaker 6: I would say it's a mixed both. Some people are

912
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:39,320
Speaker 6: thinking that he was set up. Some people are thinking

913
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:41,720
Speaker 6: that he's not responsible at all, just wrong place, wrong time,

914
00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:44,359
Speaker 6: he just happens to look like the shooter, that kind

915
00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 6: of thing. And then there's other people that think that

916
00:50:46,719 --> 00:50:51,640
Speaker 6: it was warranted, that you know, Luigi's a hero. There's both,

917
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:55,080
Speaker 6: you know, all three kinds of opinions throughout his supporter base.

918
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:58,319
Speaker 10: Yeah, I can see what else is going on.

919
00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:00,960
Speaker 4: Ye, And I didn't mean to segue.

920
00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:05,120
Speaker 5: No, no, no, no. It's all interesting though. It's all interesting.

921
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:08,920
Speaker 5: So the death penalty argument was on the table. So

922
00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:15,200
Speaker 5: the federal charges accuse man geone of murder, three use

923
00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:19,560
Speaker 5: of a firearm, number two, interstate stalking resulting in death,

924
00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:24,800
Speaker 5: number three stalking through use of interstate facilities resulting in death,

925
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:30,360
Speaker 5: and for firearms offenses. So prosecutors are using the stocking

926
00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:35,160
Speaker 5: charges to argue that the murder qualifies for the death penalty.

927
00:51:35,239 --> 00:51:38,680
Speaker 5: It's called a violent predicate, which means it's a prior

928
00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:44,239
Speaker 5: violent act that justifies bumping the sentence up to capital punishment.

929
00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:49,400
Speaker 5: The defense, meanwhile, says that stalking is not legally violent

930
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:52,440
Speaker 5: and so therefore it should not count as a violent predicate.

931
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:58,560
Speaker 5: The prosecutors argue that the stalking did indeed directly lead

932
00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:02,919
Speaker 5: to the murder of United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson, which

933
00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:07,400
Speaker 5: showed the intent to commit a violent crime. So really

934
00:52:08,320 --> 00:52:12,359
Speaker 5: what hangs in the balance of whether man Geone will

935
00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:15,440
Speaker 5: face the death penalty or not is if the court

936
00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:18,600
Speaker 5: degrees that the stocking counts as a violent crime, and

937
00:52:18,640 --> 00:52:21,719
Speaker 5: it's it's really nuanced and technical, I.

938
00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:24,680
Speaker 6: Do I have a little bit of a knee jerk.

939
00:52:24,719 --> 00:52:28,120
Speaker 6: You know, We've had a couple of cases recently that

940
00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:29,400
Speaker 6: have cross state lines.

941
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:31,280
Speaker 4: Right. We have the Melody.

942
00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:34,320
Speaker 6: Buzzard, she killed her daughter, Ashley Buzzard. We have the

943
00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:38,760
Speaker 6: guy the farmer Tycoon when he killed his wife across

944
00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:42,880
Speaker 6: state lines. Brian Coberger who went across state lines allegedly,

945
00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:45,879
Speaker 6: you know, well known out allegedly for sure, cross state

946
00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:49,520
Speaker 6: lines and killed the Idaho students. You know, why aren't

947
00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:52,120
Speaker 6: they Why did Why did none of those have federal charges?

948
00:52:53,640 --> 00:52:56,000
Speaker 6: Why are none of those having federal charges? Why is

949
00:52:56,120 --> 00:52:59,399
Speaker 6: this one a federally charged case? And I believe it's

950
00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:01,200
Speaker 6: because New York doesn't have the death penalty and they

951
00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:04,880
Speaker 6: want to kill this guy because he killed a CEO.

952
00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:10,000
Speaker 5: Right, And of course there were federally and I believe

953
00:53:10,040 --> 00:53:13,560
Speaker 5: they have been dismissed as there were terrorism charges. And

954
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:19,320
Speaker 5: that's right, those were dismissed taking away Yeah.

955
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:19,840
Speaker 10: And it also do you think because it's such a

956
00:53:19,880 --> 00:53:21,120
Speaker 10: high profile case.

957
00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:23,359
Speaker 11: And he's getting so much attention and you know that

958
00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:25,840
Speaker 11: that ties in somewhat with it or maybe?

959
00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:29,560
Speaker 6: But I mean that's a that's like a social issue, right,

960
00:53:29,719 --> 00:53:34,000
Speaker 6: Like that's not really a legal basis, right, I mean,

961
00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:36,640
Speaker 6: I don't know. Maybe I maybe I just don't understand

962
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:40,839
Speaker 6: the federal charges. But you know, again, we have other

963
00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:44,839
Speaker 6: examples of cases where you know, the planning was done,

964
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:47,919
Speaker 6: it was premeditated. They drove five six oh oh my gosh,

965
00:53:48,239 --> 00:53:50,759
Speaker 6: the Teppe murders, they drove the ones we just talked

966
00:53:50,760 --> 00:53:53,719
Speaker 6: about in the first segment. He drove five hours, five

967
00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:57,040
Speaker 6: and a half hours from Illinois to Ohio. He's not

968
00:53:57,080 --> 00:53:58,000
Speaker 6: going to be charged federally.

969
00:53:58,320 --> 00:54:01,439
Speaker 5: We should have Prosecutor Jarret fair Tino next time let's

970
00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:02,040
Speaker 5: make a break.

971
00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:05,640
Speaker 4: Not because you do. You bring up a good point

972
00:54:05,719 --> 00:54:07,400
Speaker 4: for sure body, and.

973
00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:11,080
Speaker 6: I just, I just I'm frustrated with it because I

974
00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:13,360
Speaker 6: maybe because I don't understand it, because it doesn't seem

975
00:54:13,360 --> 00:54:14,600
Speaker 6: like the laws applied equally.

976
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:18,600
Speaker 5: Mm hmmm yeah, Okay, well let's find out what the

977
00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:24,520
Speaker 5: rationals because yeah, other things that came up were the

978
00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:30,239
Speaker 5: defense for mangeone requested and evidentiary hearing, and that was

979
00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:33,239
Speaker 5: to challenge the legality of evidence that was seized from

980
00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:39,799
Speaker 5: Mangione's backpack at the Pennsylvania McDonald's arrest. So I'm sure

981
00:54:39,840 --> 00:54:42,840
Speaker 5: you guys remember we spoke. I think it was eleven

982
00:54:42,920 --> 00:54:47,160
Speaker 5: or twelve days the trial on the New York state level.

983
00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:49,400
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, that was long.

984
00:54:50,080 --> 00:54:54,759
Speaker 5: It was long of whether the contents of Mangione's backpack,

985
00:54:55,640 --> 00:55:01,960
Speaker 5: you know, should be introduced as evidence or not. So

986
00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:04,480
Speaker 5: again it was days and days and days, and then

987
00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:10,320
Speaker 5: the New York state judge I believe has four months

988
00:55:10,719 --> 00:55:17,560
Speaker 5: to write his opinion. Okay, Well, the judge denied this

989
00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:21,480
Speaker 5: defense request pretty roundly and efficiently.

990
00:55:23,160 --> 00:55:24,799
Speaker 4: The judge said.

991
00:55:26,280 --> 00:55:29,600
Speaker 5: The backpack is clearly his personal property, right, No one

992
00:55:29,600 --> 00:55:32,160
Speaker 5: disputes that. He said it was his it was with

993
00:55:32,239 --> 00:55:35,280
Speaker 5: him when he was arrested in a public place. Police

994
00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:38,480
Speaker 5: have to safeguard his personal property. So what am I

995
00:55:38,560 --> 00:55:41,480
Speaker 5: missing from my recitation of these events?

996
00:55:42,040 --> 00:55:43,239
Speaker 4: What is disputed?

997
00:55:44,800 --> 00:55:47,759
Speaker 5: So that was the judge's response, and then judge has

998
00:55:47,840 --> 00:55:50,839
Speaker 5: reserved the right to reconsider this point. But I think

999
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:55,920
Speaker 5: it's an interesting juxtaposition federally that they seem to quash

1000
00:55:56,040 --> 00:56:00,319
Speaker 5: this pretty quickly, whereas on the state level it's twelve

1001
00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:04,440
Speaker 5: days of trial and four months of consideration for an opinion.

1002
00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:06,600
Speaker 4: And I don't know, what do you guys think about that?

1003
00:56:07,200 --> 00:56:07,640
Speaker 4: I don't know.

1004
00:56:07,719 --> 00:56:12,359
Speaker 6: I you know, you know there's a lot going on

1005
00:56:12,480 --> 00:56:14,680
Speaker 6: in the nation right now with a legal search and seizure.

1006
00:56:14,800 --> 00:56:20,399
Speaker 6: You know, we have a fourth Amendment, right. I don't

1007
00:56:20,440 --> 00:56:22,279
Speaker 6: know how I feel about this. I do know that

1008
00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:25,439
Speaker 6: the things that were in his backpack would have been

1009
00:56:25,520 --> 00:56:31,759
Speaker 6: inventoried at some point, right But if they didn't find it,

1010
00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:35,160
Speaker 6: would they have arrested him? And so it's kind of

1011
00:56:35,200 --> 00:56:38,560
Speaker 6: like the chicken before the egg. So I don't know

1012
00:56:38,560 --> 00:56:41,680
Speaker 6: how I feel about it. I really, I just I don't.

1013
00:56:41,719 --> 00:56:44,560
Speaker 10: I mean, I sort of feel like I'm channeling Stephanie.

1014
00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:47,880
Speaker 11: You know, he's on the run, he's a person that

1015
00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:53,080
Speaker 11: is accused of, you know, killing someone. So I think

1016
00:56:53,120 --> 00:56:56,879
Speaker 11: at this point in time, that's when you really do

1017
00:56:56,960 --> 00:57:00,640
Speaker 11: need to raise the bar and you know, look at

1018
00:57:00,640 --> 00:57:02,239
Speaker 11: the evidence that you have, or look at what he

1019
00:57:02,280 --> 00:57:05,360
Speaker 11: has in his backpack. So I have bixed feelings because

1020
00:57:05,719 --> 00:57:09,360
Speaker 11: in this particular case, this is this is an intense

1021
00:57:09,360 --> 00:57:12,359
Speaker 11: search and things are there's a pressure cooker happening and

1022
00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:13,920
Speaker 11: people are frightened for their lives.

1023
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:16,160
Speaker 10: So but I understand your point.

1024
00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:18,600
Speaker 11: There's a lot of search and seizures going on that

1025
00:57:18,680 --> 00:57:24,120
Speaker 11: are wrongfully done. So it's I'm sort of in the

1026
00:57:24,160 --> 00:57:25,560
Speaker 11: middle line for this one right now.

1027
00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:27,680
Speaker 6: I am too, and I feel like normally I feel

1028
00:57:27,680 --> 00:57:31,480
Speaker 6: really strongly about something, but in this particular case, with

1029
00:57:31,840 --> 00:57:33,880
Speaker 6: the backpack search, I'm just not sure how I feel

1030
00:57:33,880 --> 00:57:34,280
Speaker 6: about it.

1031
00:57:35,040 --> 00:57:35,760
Speaker 10: Gotcha.

1032
00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:39,520
Speaker 5: Oh see, I feel I feel I feel like the judge.

1033
00:57:39,600 --> 00:57:42,480
Speaker 5: I feel like the judge took and I understand that way.

1034
00:57:42,920 --> 00:57:47,160
Speaker 5: And also, you know, man June, he gave them a

1035
00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:50,880
Speaker 5: false ID. He just start the whole thing with and

1036
00:57:50,880 --> 00:57:53,080
Speaker 5: guess what, that's illegal and that would have brought him

1037
00:57:53,080 --> 00:57:56,440
Speaker 5: in and they didn't know that it's time, no, but

1038
00:57:56,480 --> 00:57:57,920
Speaker 5: they would have found out pretty quick they.

1039
00:57:59,160 --> 00:58:01,560
Speaker 6: But would they have if they not searched his backpack?

1040
00:58:02,480 --> 00:58:06,000
Speaker 11: When you yeah, you run that Like if someone is

1041
00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:08,480
Speaker 11: saying this guy looks like the suspicious person on the run,

1042
00:58:08,640 --> 00:58:10,800
Speaker 11: the police are called, can I see your ID?

1043
00:58:11,320 --> 00:58:13,560
Speaker 10: At that point when you see the I D you

1044
00:58:13,600 --> 00:58:15,800
Speaker 10: would is that? Am I missing?

1045
00:58:16,240 --> 00:58:17,680
Speaker 4: No, you're You've got it. You've got it.

1046
00:58:17,960 --> 00:58:20,840
Speaker 6: But would the idea have come back? I mean, it's

1047
00:58:20,840 --> 00:58:24,720
Speaker 6: a real person. What would have what would it have

1048
00:58:24,760 --> 00:58:25,600
Speaker 6: come back as?

1049
00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:26,200
Speaker 3: I don't know?

1050
00:58:26,280 --> 00:58:26,720
Speaker 5: Do you know?

1051
00:58:27,880 --> 00:58:29,200
Speaker 4: Do you know that it's a real person.

1052
00:58:29,600 --> 00:58:34,120
Speaker 6: I believe it was his ex uh CO student at university.

1053
00:58:36,040 --> 00:58:37,920
Speaker 10: Doesn't match the person, the photo.

1054
00:58:37,640 --> 00:58:40,440
Speaker 6: Doesn't match the person, But I don't know. My photo

1055
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:43,360
Speaker 6: doesn't really match. My driver's license photo doesn't really match

1056
00:58:43,440 --> 00:58:44,160
Speaker 6: me today.

1057
00:58:44,560 --> 00:58:47,720
Speaker 10: That's true. Mine doesn't look like mine either at all.

1058
00:58:49,000 --> 00:58:51,760
Speaker 4: I don't know. I have questions. I have questions.

1059
00:58:52,040 --> 00:58:54,600
Speaker 5: Well, if you're just joining us, this is true crime. Tonight,

1060
00:58:54,640 --> 00:58:57,520
Speaker 5: we are on iHeart Radio and we are in the

1061
00:58:57,600 --> 00:59:02,120
Speaker 5: middle of talking about man Geo Own's recent court appearance

1062
00:59:02,320 --> 00:59:06,840
Speaker 5: in a federal courtroom in Manhattan, and we'd love to

1063
00:59:06,880 --> 00:59:10,280
Speaker 5: hear from you, so reach out on the talkbacks iHeartRadio

1064
00:59:10,360 --> 00:59:12,520
Speaker 5: app up right hand corner. You just click on that

1065
00:59:12,600 --> 00:59:17,040
Speaker 5: little red microphone icon, leave a message, and boom, you

1066
00:59:17,120 --> 00:59:21,680
Speaker 5: are on the show. So one other issue that came

1067
00:59:22,080 --> 00:59:25,240
Speaker 5: up at this it was a very busy day on Friday. Yeah,

1068
00:59:25,680 --> 00:59:27,200
Speaker 5: had to do with Pam Bondie.

1069
00:59:27,760 --> 00:59:31,640
Speaker 6: Oh okay, yeah, this is so the federal charges okay

1070
00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:32,360
Speaker 6: mm hm.

1071
00:59:33,080 --> 00:59:36,360
Speaker 5: And so the defense for the accused, man Ge Owne,

1072
00:59:36,600 --> 00:59:40,640
Speaker 5: challenged the involvement of Attorney General Pam Bondi. And what

1073
00:59:40,640 --> 00:59:44,720
Speaker 5: they're saying is they're citing a potential conflict of interest

1074
00:59:45,440 --> 00:59:49,280
Speaker 5: and that stems from Bondi's prior work at Ballard Partners,

1075
00:59:49,920 --> 00:59:53,680
Speaker 5: because Ballard Partners represented United Healthcare.

1076
00:59:54,600 --> 00:59:57,720
Speaker 6: Well and Pam Bondy made like a pretty prejudicial statement

1077
00:59:58,040 --> 00:59:58,720
Speaker 6: or was that Trump?

1078
00:59:58,760 --> 00:59:59,480
Speaker 4: I can't remember.

1079
01:00:01,280 --> 01:00:03,480
Speaker 6: I was saying, you know that this guy was going

1080
01:00:03,560 --> 01:00:07,000
Speaker 6: to get the death penalty, and both to.

1081
01:00:07,040 --> 01:00:10,360
Speaker 4: My recollection because early on, well.

1082
01:00:10,360 --> 01:00:12,280
Speaker 6: Right, and I know that was a point of contention

1083
01:00:12,400 --> 01:00:14,840
Speaker 6: early on too, Well.

1084
01:00:14,680 --> 01:00:18,440
Speaker 4: That was a point of contention. And to me, that's valid.

1085
01:00:18,600 --> 01:00:21,160
Speaker 5: This is I feel like and I always said that

1086
01:00:21,560 --> 01:00:22,600
Speaker 5: it's defense doing.

1087
01:00:22,400 --> 01:00:24,000
Speaker 4: What they're to I agree, I agree.

1088
01:00:24,520 --> 01:00:27,680
Speaker 5: This seems a stretch to me, right, Like, it seems

1089
01:00:27,720 --> 01:00:29,800
Speaker 5: like a stretching.

1090
01:00:28,960 --> 01:00:29,360
Speaker 4: A stretch.

1091
01:00:29,480 --> 01:00:31,160
Speaker 6: What did she say? What did they how did they

1092
01:00:31,160 --> 01:00:31,840
Speaker 6: respond to that?

1093
01:00:32,320 --> 01:00:37,800
Speaker 5: Well, prosecutors countered that, you know, the Attorney General PAMBONDI, uh,

1094
01:00:38,320 --> 01:00:41,200
Speaker 5: she stands to gain nothing, was their point, and they

1095
01:00:41,240 --> 01:00:44,800
Speaker 5: stated there is simply no factual basis for the ascertation

1096
01:00:45,000 --> 01:00:50,520
Speaker 5: that outside corporate interests influenced the Attorney general's charging decision

1097
01:00:50,640 --> 01:00:51,600
Speaker 5: in any fashion.

1098
01:00:52,400 --> 01:00:53,720
Speaker 4: So that was there.

1099
01:00:55,960 --> 01:00:59,280
Speaker 10: Yeah, body, I can see that facial expression.

1100
01:01:00,040 --> 01:01:05,480
Speaker 6: I mean that any outside corporate interest influency Attorney's general

1101
01:01:05,840 --> 01:01:07,360
Speaker 6: charting decision in any fashion.

1102
01:01:07,400 --> 01:01:08,680
Speaker 4: I think that's a stretch too.

1103
01:01:10,040 --> 01:01:12,640
Speaker 6: You know, people can't just be gunning down CEOs of

1104
01:01:12,680 --> 01:01:15,160
Speaker 6: billion dollar companies in the United States of America. That's

1105
01:01:15,440 --> 01:01:21,480
Speaker 6: terrible for capitalism. What do you mean, Yeah, I mean

1106
01:01:21,520 --> 01:01:23,920
Speaker 6: you can't. I mean, I'm not pleased. Don't take what

1107
01:01:24,040 --> 01:01:27,400
Speaker 6: I'm saying wrong, But to say that corporate interests aren't

1108
01:01:27,400 --> 01:01:30,240
Speaker 6: tied to the decision to press charges federally kind of

1109
01:01:30,280 --> 01:01:35,800
Speaker 6: seems obtuse to me. Yeah, but I don't think that

1110
01:01:35,880 --> 01:01:40,160
Speaker 6: her involvement, as in being a representative of United Healthcare

1111
01:01:40,200 --> 01:01:42,720
Speaker 6: at one point in her life, has anything to do

1112
01:01:42,760 --> 01:01:44,400
Speaker 6: with him being charged, though, I will say I agree

1113
01:01:44,480 --> 01:01:45,960
Speaker 6: with that, right.

1114
01:01:46,040 --> 01:01:48,760
Speaker 11: I agree with you on that as well. What's what's

1115
01:01:48,760 --> 01:01:51,360
Speaker 11: the timeframe looking like with what's the next this one?

1116
01:01:52,280 --> 01:01:53,160
Speaker 4: So the judge.

1117
01:01:53,440 --> 01:01:56,520
Speaker 5: The judge hasn't ruled on anything immediately, but as scheduled

1118
01:01:56,560 --> 01:01:59,960
Speaker 5: the next pre trial conference for January thirtieth, which will

1119
01:02:00,160 --> 01:02:00,600
Speaker 5: coming up.

1120
01:02:00,560 --> 01:02:01,480
Speaker 4: Before we know it.

1121
01:02:01,680 --> 01:02:06,200
Speaker 5: And the judge further suggested that jury could be Jury

1122
01:02:06,400 --> 01:02:09,919
Speaker 5: selection could begin September of this year if the death

1123
01:02:09,920 --> 01:02:11,080
Speaker 5: penalty is removed.

1124
01:02:11,680 --> 01:02:14,400
Speaker 4: If the death penalty remains, trial.

1125
01:02:14,200 --> 01:02:17,160
Speaker 5: Is much more likely to begin the very end of

1126
01:02:17,200 --> 01:02:20,520
Speaker 5: this year or early twenty twenty seven.

1127
01:02:21,440 --> 01:02:23,680
Speaker 10: Twenty twenty seven? Is it me? Is this is it?

1128
01:02:23,760 --> 01:02:26,200
Speaker 11: I guess for always this length of time, but it

1129
01:02:26,280 --> 01:02:28,040
Speaker 11: just feels like we're going to be going with this

1130
01:02:28,080 --> 01:02:28,600
Speaker 11: for a while.

1131
01:02:29,080 --> 01:02:35,520
Speaker 5: Well, the wheels of justice often turns slowly. Listen, stick around.

1132
01:02:36,400 --> 01:02:39,720
Speaker 5: There is a new challenge in the Pamless smart case.

1133
01:02:39,880 --> 01:02:42,520
Speaker 4: We're going to remind you of what that was.

1134
01:02:42,640 --> 01:02:46,400
Speaker 5: It was the biggest topic of its day in the nineties.

1135
01:02:47,200 --> 01:02:47,640
Speaker 4: Keep it here.

1136
01:02:47,640 --> 01:03:00,680
Speaker 5: A True Crime Tonight, Welcome back to true I'm tonight

1137
01:03:00,680 --> 01:03:05,160
Speaker 5: on iHeartRadio. We are talking true crime all the time,

1138
01:03:06,120 --> 01:03:09,960
Speaker 5: and this is a stack knight of headlines as always,

1139
01:03:10,440 --> 01:03:13,800
Speaker 5: and so I want to actually hop directly into our

1140
01:03:14,000 --> 01:03:15,000
Speaker 5: next update.

1141
01:03:15,480 --> 01:03:20,040
Speaker 4: Bodyboo, bodybooh. I love that this is about Brian Coberger.

1142
01:03:20,600 --> 01:03:25,240
Speaker 6: So, the families of the four University of Idaho students

1143
01:03:26,000 --> 01:03:31,680
Speaker 6: murder victims are suing the Washington State University alleging that

1144
01:03:31,760 --> 01:03:35,400
Speaker 6: the school ignored critical warning signs about the killer their

1145
01:03:35,440 --> 01:03:40,280
Speaker 6: PhD student and teaching assistant, Brian Coberger. In November of

1146
01:03:40,280 --> 01:03:43,920
Speaker 6: twenty twenty two, Brian Coberger brutally stabbed four University of

1147
01:03:43,920 --> 01:03:49,440
Speaker 6: Idaho students, Kaylee Consolves, Madison Mogan, Xander Kernodle, and Ethan

1148
01:03:49,520 --> 01:03:53,680
Speaker 6: Chapin to death in their Moscow, Idaho home. In the

1149
01:03:53,720 --> 01:03:56,920
Speaker 6: summer of twenty twenty five, Brian Coberger did plead guilty

1150
01:03:57,120 --> 01:04:00,440
Speaker 6: and was sentenced to four life terms without parole. I

1151
01:04:00,440 --> 01:04:02,280
Speaker 6: don't think any of us are surprised by this, right

1152
01:04:02,280 --> 01:04:03,720
Speaker 6: and not at all. We've talked about that.

1153
01:04:04,160 --> 01:04:07,000
Speaker 4: I was going to say, we saw it comming. It

1154
01:04:07,040 --> 01:04:08,760
Speaker 4: was just the when and the when as.

1155
01:04:08,640 --> 01:04:14,920
Speaker 6: We we dedicated several segments going over the complaints that

1156
01:04:15,040 --> 01:04:17,480
Speaker 6: you know, some of the students were making, and not

1157
01:04:17,520 --> 01:04:21,040
Speaker 6: only students, but even faculty at WSU were making against

1158
01:04:21,080 --> 01:04:26,000
Speaker 6: Brian Coberger, and there were like thirteen major complaints that,

1159
01:04:26,240 --> 01:04:29,160
Speaker 6: you know, people that worked with Brian Coberger at WSU

1160
01:04:29,720 --> 01:04:32,560
Speaker 6: and the students that he was teaching made against him.

1161
01:04:33,280 --> 01:04:35,960
Speaker 6: So this lawsuit was filed on January seventh in the

1162
01:04:36,000 --> 01:04:40,160
Speaker 6: Superior Court of Washington. They're seeking damages from WSU for

1163
01:04:40,280 --> 01:04:44,240
Speaker 6: alleged negligence. The families of the victims alleged that Brian

1164
01:04:44,280 --> 01:04:48,840
Speaker 6: Coberger had a known history of threatening, stalking, and predatory

1165
01:04:48,880 --> 01:04:53,840
Speaker 6: behavior prior to committing the murders. WSU did employ Brian

1166
01:04:53,880 --> 01:04:56,800
Speaker 6: Coberger as a teaching assistant in the Criminal Justice and

1167
01:04:56,880 --> 01:05:01,920
Speaker 6: Criminology Department while he pursued his pH and so because

1168
01:05:01,960 --> 01:05:04,000
Speaker 6: he was an employee, he was getting salary, he was

1169
01:05:04,040 --> 01:05:08,960
Speaker 6: getting housing, medical benefits, and tuition. And the lawsuit claims

1170
01:05:08,960 --> 01:05:14,240
Speaker 6: that WSU failed to discipline Brian Koberger for repeated misconduct,

1171
01:05:14,360 --> 01:05:18,760
Speaker 6: stating that it reminded or I'm sorry, stating it remained

1172
01:05:18,880 --> 01:05:26,000
Speaker 6: idle despite quote extreme and repeated instances of discrimination, sexual harassment,

1173
01:05:26,240 --> 01:05:27,000
Speaker 6: and stalking.

1174
01:05:27,680 --> 01:05:31,040
Speaker 10: I mean, it's crazy to me. Yeah, we're probably saying

1175
01:05:31,080 --> 01:05:31,560
Speaker 10: the same thing.

1176
01:05:32,080 --> 01:05:35,960
Speaker 11: You're saying thirteen, yeah, thirteen different times, Like when you

1177
01:05:36,040 --> 01:05:39,240
Speaker 11: hit double digits something should have happened prior to that.

1178
01:05:39,320 --> 01:05:41,640
Speaker 11: It scenes, But is that where you were feeling, Courtney

1179
01:05:41,720 --> 01:05:43,160
Speaker 11: or well.

1180
01:05:42,600 --> 01:05:44,760
Speaker 5: It was that And I was going to say, you know, body,

1181
01:05:44,760 --> 01:05:47,000
Speaker 5: as you mentioned, we've covered this because there was an

1182
01:05:47,040 --> 01:05:51,360
Speaker 5: extensive amount of information to cover in the detailed reporting.

1183
01:05:52,080 --> 01:05:57,480
Speaker 5: And I am I am simply flabbergasted that as someone

1184
01:05:57,560 --> 01:06:00,520
Speaker 5: who was in a teaching position, which if you're teaching

1185
01:06:00,600 --> 01:06:04,720
Speaker 5: undergrads also can include and often does include people under

1186
01:06:04,760 --> 01:06:08,840
Speaker 5: the age of eighteen, and that this was allowed to

1187
01:06:08,920 --> 01:06:10,080
Speaker 5: slide is right?

1188
01:06:10,640 --> 01:06:13,800
Speaker 6: Well, remember do you remember there was that one incident

1189
01:06:13,840 --> 01:06:18,200
Speaker 6: where it got so bad for some of the students

1190
01:06:18,200 --> 01:06:21,080
Speaker 6: and whatnot in the faculty that some of the female

1191
01:06:22,480 --> 01:06:26,000
Speaker 6: people asked for security to escort them to hit their

1192
01:06:26,040 --> 01:06:30,120
Speaker 6: cars because of Brian Coberger and WSU just made a report.

1193
01:06:30,840 --> 01:06:32,320
Speaker 4: Right, So that's in the lawsuit.

1194
01:06:32,400 --> 01:06:35,200
Speaker 6: That's one of the incidents they're you know, talking about

1195
01:06:35,200 --> 01:06:38,840
Speaker 6: when they're talking about this like repeated pattern of behavior

1196
01:06:38,880 --> 01:06:42,760
Speaker 6: that Brian Coburger had that they feel WSU was negligent

1197
01:06:42,880 --> 01:06:47,360
Speaker 6: in disciplining him quick enough. Right, it went too far?

1198
01:06:47,440 --> 01:06:49,840
Speaker 6: That were too many there were too many complaints. Why

1199
01:06:49,920 --> 01:06:51,000
Speaker 6: wasn't this nipped in the bud?

1200
01:06:51,120 --> 01:06:51,440
Speaker 4: Sooner.

1201
01:06:53,120 --> 01:06:57,160
Speaker 6: So the complaint does state that WSU's in action quote

1202
01:06:57,680 --> 01:07:02,040
Speaker 6: ultimately culminated in Coburger's stock talking and murdering the dicedents. Now,

1203
01:07:02,760 --> 01:07:06,640
Speaker 6: we have been told multiple times from Bill Thompson, the prosecutor,

1204
01:07:07,200 --> 01:07:10,480
Speaker 6: that they were never stalked, So I'm not sure. But listen,

1205
01:07:10,520 --> 01:07:13,680
Speaker 6: this is a civil case, right, This is a civil case.

1206
01:07:13,760 --> 01:07:20,360
Speaker 6: The bar of you know, proveability is much lower than

1207
01:07:20,600 --> 01:07:22,400
Speaker 6: you know, a state case.

1208
01:07:22,440 --> 01:07:25,320
Speaker 4: This is a civil case. Yeah, okay, so there's some

1209
01:07:25,680 --> 01:07:26,480
Speaker 4: wiggle room here.

1210
01:07:26,560 --> 01:07:30,000
Speaker 10: So I was just going to say, do you feel

1211
01:07:30,040 --> 01:07:31,280
Speaker 10: like it's a strong case already?

1212
01:07:31,320 --> 01:07:31,480
Speaker 11: I do.

1213
01:07:32,120 --> 01:07:35,160
Speaker 6: I absolutely do. In fact, I know that on this show.

1214
01:07:35,240 --> 01:07:38,200
Speaker 6: I've said the families are going to sue WSU. It's coming,

1215
01:07:38,720 --> 01:07:41,240
Speaker 6: Like I saw as soon as I read those reports.

1216
01:07:41,240 --> 01:07:42,800
Speaker 6: I'm like, yeah, they're going to get sued. They're going

1217
01:07:42,840 --> 01:07:44,120
Speaker 6: to do it, like for sure.

1218
01:07:45,600 --> 01:07:47,720
Speaker 4: Again, it's just it's so flabbergasting.

1219
01:07:47,840 --> 01:07:51,440
Speaker 5: And I understand, you know, academia famously it's such a

1220
01:07:51,480 --> 01:07:54,720
Speaker 5: cloistered environment, right, and they like to keep it's so

1221
01:07:54,960 --> 01:07:59,400
Speaker 5: closed and show no warts and handle things internally. But

1222
01:07:59,440 --> 01:08:02,120
Speaker 5: even in our like even I was the lowest rung

1223
01:08:02,160 --> 01:08:06,040
Speaker 5: as an ra a resident assistant, but that entailed having

1224
01:08:06,120 --> 01:08:10,960
Speaker 5: I was with meetings with campus safety, et cetera. And

1225
01:08:11,160 --> 01:08:15,600
Speaker 5: if there were threats like this, I I it's unimaginable

1226
01:08:15,640 --> 01:08:20,920
Speaker 5: to me that he was not removed from his post.

1227
01:08:20,520 --> 01:08:21,519
Speaker 8: You can be.

1228
01:08:21,479 --> 01:08:24,120
Speaker 5: Removed from your post if your GPA, if your grade

1229
01:08:24,160 --> 01:08:25,360
Speaker 5: point average isn't good enough.

1230
01:08:25,680 --> 01:08:30,320
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, oh absolutely, And so you know, and they did.

1231
01:08:30,840 --> 01:08:33,200
Speaker 6: They eventually, you know, they were sending him letters. We

1232
01:08:33,240 --> 01:08:36,599
Speaker 6: saw in the photos that were released from his apartment

1233
01:08:37,360 --> 01:08:40,439
Speaker 6: that he had letters from w SU saying that his

1234
01:08:40,600 --> 01:08:43,960
Speaker 6: behavior was unacceptable and that you know, there was going

1235
01:08:44,040 --> 01:08:47,000
Speaker 6: to be disciplinary action. In fact, I think I opined

1236
01:08:47,040 --> 01:08:50,879
Speaker 6: that might have been a trigger for him, right yeah,

1237
01:08:50,960 --> 01:08:54,360
Speaker 6: So but you know, but what the families are alleging

1238
01:08:54,400 --> 01:08:56,880
Speaker 6: is that they didn't act soon enough and that you know,

1239
01:08:57,280 --> 01:09:01,719
Speaker 6: this led to him. It ultimately culminated in Brian Koberger's

1240
01:09:01,720 --> 01:09:06,560
Speaker 6: stocking and murdering the victims. So the lawsuit stresses university's

1241
01:09:06,600 --> 01:09:10,679
Speaker 6: responsibility to monitor and respond to stocking behavior, noting quote,

1242
01:09:10,800 --> 01:09:15,400
Speaker 6: it's critical for universities to promptly identify and appropriately respond. Remember,

1243
01:09:15,640 --> 01:09:20,040
Speaker 6: he wasn't just a student, He worked there, that's exactly.

1244
01:09:20,120 --> 01:09:24,439
Speaker 6: So that's the key right, he was, and he was

1245
01:09:24,720 --> 01:09:28,000
Speaker 6: staying in this area because he worked there, because they

1246
01:09:28,040 --> 01:09:32,920
Speaker 6: were giving him free housing. You know. So ultimately the

1247
01:09:32,960 --> 01:09:35,559
Speaker 6: family is saying, and you know, they filed those torque

1248
01:09:35,600 --> 01:09:39,360
Speaker 6: claims early on against the city of Moscow and the

1249
01:09:39,680 --> 01:09:43,280
Speaker 6: university and whatnot. So we knew early, I mean very

1250
01:09:43,320 --> 01:09:46,360
Speaker 6: early on in this case that this was going to

1251
01:09:46,479 --> 01:09:49,320
Speaker 6: end up in a religious kind of fashion in some way.

1252
01:09:50,200 --> 01:09:52,720
Speaker 6: And here we are in twenty twenty six and the

1253
01:09:52,840 --> 01:09:55,639
Speaker 6: University of or the Washington State University is getting sued.

1254
01:09:55,680 --> 01:09:59,599
Speaker 6: So we're going to see what happens. For those who

1255
01:09:59,640 --> 01:10:03,120
Speaker 6: don't know, I can't imagine that you don't, but if

1256
01:10:03,120 --> 01:10:06,439
Speaker 6: you don't, Brian Koberger murdered for University of Idaho students,

1257
01:10:06,520 --> 01:10:10,680
Speaker 6: Kaylee Consolvus, she was twenty one, Madison Mogan also twenty one,

1258
01:10:11,479 --> 01:10:15,639
Speaker 6: Xana Kernodle she was twenty, and Ethan Chapin he was twenty.

1259
01:10:15,680 --> 01:10:19,240
Speaker 6: On November thirteenth of twenty twenty two. He was sentenced

1260
01:10:19,280 --> 01:10:22,840
Speaker 6: by Judge Stephen Hipler in July of twenty twenty five

1261
01:10:23,479 --> 01:10:28,040
Speaker 6: to four consecutive life sentences without parle plus ten years

1262
01:10:28,040 --> 01:10:31,800
Speaker 6: for burglary and a two hundred and seventy thousand dollars

1263
01:10:31,840 --> 01:10:34,719
Speaker 6: in fines and civil penalties. Did you guys see he

1264
01:10:34,760 --> 01:10:37,280
Speaker 6: made another complaint. No, I don't know if you guys

1265
01:10:37,280 --> 01:10:40,600
Speaker 6: seen this. Yeah, he made a complaint that the coax

1266
01:10:40,680 --> 01:10:42,960
Speaker 6: cable in his jail cell for his TV.

1267
01:10:43,640 --> 01:10:45,920
Speaker 4: Is like slipped into the wall.

1268
01:10:46,240 --> 01:10:48,760
Speaker 6: So I don't know if they were doing maintenance or

1269
01:10:48,800 --> 01:10:52,160
Speaker 6: whatnot where it was unplugged from the TV. You know,

1270
01:10:52,280 --> 01:10:55,000
Speaker 6: you know how like sometimes you unplug your phone from

1271
01:10:55,360 --> 01:10:58,040
Speaker 6: in your USB cable like goes on your desk and

1272
01:10:58,080 --> 01:10:59,680
Speaker 6: you gotta, oh, I gotta go get it and you

1273
01:10:59,720 --> 01:11:02,320
Speaker 6: gotta fall under your desk. Well, it's like the cable

1274
01:11:02,600 --> 01:11:04,439
Speaker 6: went into the wall. So now we can't watch you.

1275
01:11:04,520 --> 01:11:05,960
Speaker 10: Be oh brother.

1276
01:11:06,560 --> 01:11:09,000
Speaker 11: Well, I sometimes want to say crime your river, but

1277
01:11:09,080 --> 01:11:09,559
Speaker 11: I'm going.

1278
01:11:09,680 --> 01:11:12,120
Speaker 4: That's kind of where yeah.

1279
01:11:12,080 --> 01:11:14,360
Speaker 10: That I go back and forth. I know we have

1280
01:11:14,600 --> 01:11:16,400
Speaker 10: another one we're going to go to. But I have

1281
01:11:16,439 --> 01:11:18,200
Speaker 10: a quick one question for you, Boddy.

1282
01:11:18,240 --> 01:11:21,840
Speaker 11: I know the family members weren't all in complete agreement

1283
01:11:22,000 --> 01:11:25,080
Speaker 11: when with the plea deal. Do you know if they're

1284
01:11:25,120 --> 01:11:26,360
Speaker 11: all in agreement with this?

1285
01:11:27,160 --> 01:11:30,400
Speaker 4: The four families all listed as plaintiffs.

1286
01:11:30,479 --> 01:11:33,200
Speaker 6: Yeah, okay, great, All four families are listed as plaintiffs,

1287
01:11:33,240 --> 01:11:36,200
Speaker 6: and it is worth noting really quick. During high school,

1288
01:11:36,320 --> 01:11:39,439
Speaker 6: Brian Koberger was removed from a vocational program due to

1289
01:11:39,479 --> 01:11:43,440
Speaker 6: some behavioral issues with women, and local businesses kept electronic

1290
01:11:43,439 --> 01:11:46,880
Speaker 6: warnings about him, so that he has a pattern of this, right,

1291
01:11:47,400 --> 01:11:49,360
Speaker 6: And one of the things in the lawsuit is that

1292
01:11:49,360 --> 01:11:53,320
Speaker 6: that they mentioned was that WSU didn't do their due

1293
01:11:53,360 --> 01:11:57,479
Speaker 6: diligence when researching his background.

1294
01:11:57,600 --> 01:11:58,400
Speaker 4: So that's it.

1295
01:11:58,439 --> 01:11:58,719
Speaker 9: Wow.

1296
01:11:59,280 --> 01:12:01,920
Speaker 6: Yeah, So this is true crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're

1297
01:12:01,920 --> 01:12:04,439
Speaker 6: talking true crime all the time. I'm body moving and

1298
01:12:04,479 --> 01:12:08,519
Speaker 6: I'm here with Courtney Armstrong and producer Taha. Courtney, do

1299
01:12:08,560 --> 01:12:12,400
Speaker 6: we have something about the hot for teacher information?

1300
01:12:12,479 --> 01:12:12,840
Speaker 3: Do we have?

1301
01:12:12,960 --> 01:12:13,160
Speaker 4: Yes?

1302
01:12:13,479 --> 01:12:14,479
Speaker 3: We I do?

1303
01:12:16,640 --> 01:12:18,960
Speaker 4: And okay there has been an update.

1304
01:12:19,080 --> 01:12:21,160
Speaker 6: That's what it was called back then, right, wasn't it?

1305
01:12:21,160 --> 01:12:23,400
Speaker 10: It was? It was the hot that was the please.

1306
01:12:23,200 --> 01:12:26,160
Speaker 4: Don't Yeah, yeah, you know hot for teacher?

1307
01:12:26,320 --> 01:12:31,759
Speaker 5: Yes, yeah, okay, absolutely Well honestly, this was the case

1308
01:12:31,800 --> 01:12:35,880
Speaker 5: that started it all. Not to make light of it

1309
01:12:36,240 --> 01:12:40,519
Speaker 5: so much, but this happened in nineteen ninety uh and

1310
01:12:40,640 --> 01:12:43,759
Speaker 5: it was a pameless smart case. She was a former

1311
01:12:43,840 --> 01:12:47,800
Speaker 5: New Hampshire media coordinator in a high school. She was

1312
01:12:47,920 --> 01:12:52,240
Speaker 5: convicted in ninety one of orchestrating the murderer of her husband,

1313
01:12:52,320 --> 01:12:57,519
Speaker 5: Gregory Smart, by manipulating a group of teenage boys, one

1314
01:12:57,560 --> 01:13:01,639
Speaker 5: of whom she was having a sexual relationationship with, and

1315
01:13:01,880 --> 01:13:05,599
Speaker 5: she was convicted of convincing them to carry out killing.

1316
01:13:06,240 --> 01:13:08,760
Speaker 4: So you may remember this.

1317
01:13:08,760 --> 01:13:12,879
Speaker 5: This case inspired, in addition to many documentaries, several books,

1318
01:13:13,320 --> 01:13:16,960
Speaker 5: the nineteen ninety nineteen ninety five film To Die For,

1319
01:13:17,640 --> 01:13:20,880
Speaker 5: which starred Nicole Kidman and a young Joaquin Phoenix.

1320
01:13:23,640 --> 01:13:26,040
Speaker 6: I remember it being on like all the inquirers, like

1321
01:13:26,800 --> 01:13:30,320
Speaker 6: all them. I remember she was like a strapless it

1322
01:13:30,360 --> 01:13:32,439
Speaker 6: was like I think it was purple, a strapless like

1323
01:13:32,880 --> 01:13:33,559
Speaker 6: tube top.

1324
01:13:33,680 --> 01:13:34,479
Speaker 4: And her hair was.

1325
01:13:34,640 --> 01:13:39,240
Speaker 6: Very eighties layered curly hairspray aqulinet and it was like

1326
01:13:39,320 --> 01:13:43,080
Speaker 6: hot for teacher everywhere on all the all the stars

1327
01:13:43,120 --> 01:13:47,320
Speaker 6: and inquirers and whatnot. My mom she couldn't stop reading

1328
01:13:47,360 --> 01:13:49,840
Speaker 6: about this. It was in every room of our house. Yes,

1329
01:13:49,920 --> 01:13:51,040
Speaker 6: I remember this very well.

1330
01:13:51,120 --> 01:13:51,320
Speaker 4: Well.

1331
01:13:51,439 --> 01:13:55,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, and this really was one of the earliest profile trials.

1332
01:13:55,360 --> 01:13:58,519
Speaker 5: It had a sexual affair with the school employee and

1333
01:13:58,640 --> 01:14:01,880
Speaker 5: a kid. It was a murder for higher plot and

1334
01:14:01,880 --> 01:14:05,240
Speaker 5: there were teenagers. So at the time Pamela Smart was

1335
01:14:05,280 --> 01:14:08,519
Speaker 5: only twenty two years old when she worked at this

1336
01:14:08,640 --> 01:14:12,080
Speaker 5: high school and when she sparked her affair with the

1337
01:14:12,080 --> 01:14:17,720
Speaker 5: then fifteen year old William Billy Flynn. Now it was

1338
01:14:18,000 --> 01:14:23,599
Speaker 5: Flynn who would later go on to kill Pamelas Smart's husband,

1339
01:14:23,680 --> 01:14:25,439
Speaker 5: twenty four year old Gregory Smart.

1340
01:14:25,439 --> 01:14:27,720
Speaker 4: And this all happened in Derry, New Hampshire.

1341
01:14:29,960 --> 01:14:33,680
Speaker 5: So back in ninety one, Pamela Smart was convicted as

1342
01:14:33,720 --> 01:14:37,600
Speaker 5: an accompliced to first degree murder. She was sentenced to

1343
01:14:37,680 --> 01:14:43,040
Speaker 5: life without parole. Meanwhile, her teenage co conspirators eventually served

1344
01:14:43,040 --> 01:14:48,080
Speaker 5: their sentences out and have been released. So what's new

1345
01:14:48,600 --> 01:14:52,839
Speaker 5: now is that Smart has filed a new habeas corpus

1346
01:14:52,840 --> 01:14:59,040
Speaker 5: petition challenging her ninety one conviction and she's arguing that

1347
01:14:59,120 --> 01:15:05,639
Speaker 5: her constitutional rights were violated. So yeah, well let's I'm

1348
01:15:05,640 --> 01:15:07,160
Speaker 5: going to put that on a pause. So keep that

1349
01:15:07,200 --> 01:15:09,040
Speaker 5: in the back of your brain for a hot second,

1350
01:15:09,040 --> 01:15:12,560
Speaker 5: because if people don't remember this really was. It was

1351
01:15:12,600 --> 01:15:16,439
Speaker 5: a phenomena at the time. Body like you said, your

1352
01:15:16,520 --> 01:15:19,280
Speaker 5: mom was not alone, which couldn't stop reading about it.

1353
01:15:19,280 --> 01:15:22,400
Speaker 6: It was everywhere, was on like Phil donu, it was everywhere.

1354
01:15:22,479 --> 01:15:23,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, did it.

1355
01:15:25,439 --> 01:15:28,320
Speaker 10: In time and set the stage because that's right.

1356
01:15:29,280 --> 01:15:33,080
Speaker 5: The trial was televised gavel to gavel. That didn't happen.

1357
01:15:33,120 --> 01:15:37,639
Speaker 5: Then this is years before OJ right, for like the biggest,

1358
01:15:37,680 --> 01:15:41,920
Speaker 5: you know, one of the biggest examples, and it was

1359
01:15:42,479 --> 01:15:45,799
Speaker 5: really one of the absolute earliest examples of the modern

1360
01:15:46,280 --> 01:15:51,920
Speaker 5: televised true crime spectacles. For all the reasons. It was

1361
01:15:51,920 --> 01:15:57,600
Speaker 5: a female defendant. She's manipulating minor. She was very attractive,

1362
01:15:58,439 --> 01:15:59,000
Speaker 5: that's right.

1363
01:16:00,479 --> 01:16:03,200
Speaker 4: And also the idea of a mastermind who never pulls

1364
01:16:03,240 --> 01:16:03,799
Speaker 4: the trigger.

1365
01:16:04,439 --> 01:16:08,639
Speaker 6: That's very interesting, right, Like how can you manipulate somebody

1366
01:16:08,880 --> 01:16:11,040
Speaker 6: so much to kill for you?

1367
01:16:11,120 --> 01:16:11,320
Speaker 5: Right?

1368
01:16:12,080 --> 01:16:16,360
Speaker 6: And I mean obviously the the killer in this case

1369
01:16:16,479 --> 01:16:19,400
Speaker 6: was a young man, young boy, I should say, actually

1370
01:16:19,439 --> 01:16:23,559
Speaker 6: fifteen isn't even able to make, you know, decisions legally

1371
01:16:23,600 --> 01:16:28,439
Speaker 6: for himself. Of course, he's vulnerable to this beautiful teacher

1372
01:16:28,920 --> 01:16:32,639
Speaker 6: who convinces him that my husband has to die.

1373
01:16:32,920 --> 01:16:35,080
Speaker 4: I mean, it's it was, it was She's a predator.

1374
01:16:35,680 --> 01:16:39,920
Speaker 11: Yeah, this was like a huge story for those rights.

1375
01:16:39,920 --> 01:16:41,840
Speaker 10: Like I'm already you know, I know the story, but

1376
01:16:41,880 --> 01:16:43,800
Speaker 10: I can you have to remember.

1377
01:16:43,439 --> 01:16:45,799
Speaker 6: Too, this is like the time of like Knox Landing

1378
01:16:46,000 --> 01:16:52,519
Speaker 6: and like you know, Melrose Place and Likeaships. Right, So

1379
01:16:52,600 --> 01:16:55,600
Speaker 6: this was just like the real deal life.

1380
01:16:56,960 --> 01:16:57,920
Speaker 4: It's exactly right.

1381
01:16:59,120 --> 01:17:03,280
Speaker 5: And then so again, Paima was smart fully an adult,

1382
01:17:03,720 --> 01:17:07,000
Speaker 5: but also only twenty two, which I just say is true.

1383
01:17:07,120 --> 01:17:09,320
Speaker 4: She was twenty two and.

1384
01:17:11,640 --> 01:17:17,960
Speaker 5: She was married, and she complained about her husband, Gregory Smart,

1385
01:17:17,960 --> 01:17:23,679
Speaker 5: that he was controlling and dismissive and emotionally unsupportive. None

1386
01:17:23,680 --> 01:17:29,280
Speaker 5: of this is born out with anything concrete, but the

1387
01:17:29,400 --> 01:17:34,800
Speaker 5: prosecutors argued that she portrayed herself as this victim of

1388
01:17:34,840 --> 01:17:42,439
Speaker 5: an unhappy marriage, particularly in conversations with William billy Flynn,

1389
01:17:42,439 --> 01:17:44,360
Speaker 5: who she was having an affair with. So it was

1390
01:17:44,880 --> 01:17:47,559
Speaker 5: woe was me, this terrible husband. If only we could

1391
01:17:47,560 --> 01:17:49,560
Speaker 5: get rid of him, then we would be together.

1392
01:17:49,760 --> 01:17:53,240
Speaker 11: So sort of manipulating him even more so to think

1393
01:17:53,320 --> 01:17:55,760
Speaker 11: that makes sense. He's fifteen. I could see why he

1394
01:17:55,760 --> 01:17:57,000
Speaker 11: wouldn't think that, so.

1395
01:17:57,640 --> 01:18:01,000
Speaker 5: Absolutely, you know, and every don't you want to come

1396
01:18:01,000 --> 01:18:03,719
Speaker 5: in and swoop in and be a savior and save

1397
01:18:03,800 --> 01:18:09,840
Speaker 5: the day. But you know, the prosecution they maintained that

1398
01:18:09,920 --> 01:18:14,320
Speaker 5: she really just depicted this her marriage as terrible to

1399
01:18:14,560 --> 01:18:17,719
Speaker 5: justify the extreme solutions.

1400
01:18:18,080 --> 01:18:20,439
Speaker 4: But I'm actually we're gonna dig back in.

1401
01:18:20,800 --> 01:18:23,479
Speaker 5: After the break on this and get to the meaty

1402
01:18:24,000 --> 01:18:27,920
Speaker 5: britty of what went on with Billy Flynn and how

1403
01:18:28,080 --> 01:18:31,360
Speaker 5: his friends got embroiled into this and had their day

1404
01:18:31,360 --> 01:18:35,640
Speaker 5: in court as well. So stick around. We've got a

1405
01:18:35,720 --> 01:18:38,880
Speaker 5: lot more to come True Crime Tonight. We're talking true

1406
01:18:38,880 --> 01:18:40,080
Speaker 5: crime all the time.

1407
01:18:50,720 --> 01:18:53,360
Speaker 6: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we

1408
01:18:53,400 --> 01:18:55,920
Speaker 6: talk true crime all the time. I'm body movin and

1409
01:18:55,960 --> 01:18:59,760
Speaker 6: I'm here with Courtney Armstrong, my bestie, and my true

1410
01:18:59,800 --> 01:19:03,400
Speaker 6: crime Bessie right like an analy Li says, and Taha,

1411
01:19:03,439 --> 01:19:05,519
Speaker 6: our producer, are one of the producers here as well.

1412
01:19:05,520 --> 01:19:08,040
Speaker 6: Thank you Toha for being here. We have a lot

1413
01:19:08,080 --> 01:19:11,919
Speaker 6: to get into. Courtney's been getting into the Pamela Smart

1414
01:19:11,960 --> 01:19:15,439
Speaker 6: case because there's an interesting new development and this is

1415
01:19:15,560 --> 01:19:18,800
Speaker 6: kind of a case that I don't want to say

1416
01:19:18,880 --> 01:19:22,840
Speaker 6: kicked off the true crime genre, but it definitely started

1417
01:19:23,240 --> 01:19:26,400
Speaker 6: the momentum when you say, Courtney like, it kind of

1418
01:19:26,800 --> 01:19:29,600
Speaker 6: got the ball rolling with people being really interested in

1419
01:19:29,600 --> 01:19:32,639
Speaker 6: true crime cases. And it's one of the first ones

1420
01:19:32,640 --> 01:19:35,360
Speaker 6: that I kind of remember following with my mother who

1421
01:19:35,479 --> 01:19:38,800
Speaker 6: was obsessed. So I'm super interested to hear what you

1422
01:19:38,840 --> 01:19:40,040
Speaker 6: have to say and what else you have to get

1423
01:19:40,080 --> 01:19:40,800
Speaker 6: into about this.

1424
01:19:41,560 --> 01:19:43,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I agree with you. It was one of

1425
01:19:43,320 --> 01:19:45,400
Speaker 5: the first. So it happened in nineteen ninety. If you're

1426
01:19:45,439 --> 01:19:48,720
Speaker 5: just joining us, Pamela Smart back. In nineteen ninety, she

1427
01:19:48,880 --> 01:19:52,880
Speaker 5: worked as a media counselor at a high school. She

1428
01:19:53,120 --> 01:19:55,240
Speaker 5: ended up having an affair with the fifteen year old

1429
01:19:55,280 --> 01:20:02,240
Speaker 5: William Billy. Flynn ended up convincing Billy and his friends

1430
01:20:02,400 --> 01:20:06,880
Speaker 5: from high school to murder her husband. She's now behind bars,

1431
01:20:07,000 --> 01:20:08,840
Speaker 5: and we'll tell you about the update in a second.

1432
01:20:09,360 --> 01:20:12,479
Speaker 5: But yeah, body, it really did kick start one of

1433
01:20:12,520 --> 01:20:16,840
Speaker 5: the first trials that people watched day after day, one

1434
01:20:16,840 --> 01:20:20,439
Speaker 5: of the first cases that was on the tabloid selling

1435
01:20:20,479 --> 01:20:24,200
Speaker 5: the rags week after week. So it really did kind

1436
01:20:24,200 --> 01:20:27,960
Speaker 5: of catapult and for for all the.

1437
01:20:27,400 --> 01:20:31,040
Speaker 6: Bombs crime, Like, yeah, you know, people have always been

1438
01:20:31,080 --> 01:20:33,760
Speaker 6: interested in true crime, right, There's always been like detective

1439
01:20:33,880 --> 01:20:36,960
Speaker 6: novels and and things like that, But this, I mean

1440
01:20:37,040 --> 01:20:40,280
Speaker 6: like the what we consider true crime today, right, the

1441
01:20:40,479 --> 01:20:42,280
Speaker 6: modern trial watcher.

1442
01:20:42,600 --> 01:20:45,880
Speaker 4: You know, the genre that we are in right now.

1443
01:20:46,400 --> 01:20:47,840
Speaker 4: I think that's right. It helped start that.

1444
01:20:47,880 --> 01:20:50,360
Speaker 11: I think, yeah, I think particularly when it's a woman

1445
01:20:50,560 --> 01:20:55,599
Speaker 11: that is convincing younger, that's they're all the triggers that

1446
01:20:55,640 --> 01:20:57,559
Speaker 11: make you say right, Oh, I want to hear this.

1447
01:20:57,680 --> 01:20:58,160
Speaker 4: What's right?

1448
01:20:59,320 --> 01:21:01,639
Speaker 11: I want to hear more tales about it, right, that's right.

1449
01:21:01,640 --> 01:21:04,200
Speaker 11: Speaking of which, Courtney, please tell me more details because

1450
01:21:04,200 --> 01:21:05,120
Speaker 11: I'm loving where you're going.

1451
01:21:05,479 --> 01:21:08,599
Speaker 5: So where we left off, we were just about to

1452
01:21:08,640 --> 01:21:13,360
Speaker 5: get into the affair at the center of this between

1453
01:21:13,960 --> 01:21:18,599
Speaker 5: Pamela's Smart you know, mediac councer and fifteen year old

1454
01:21:19,360 --> 01:21:26,479
Speaker 5: Billy Flynn. So this sexual and emotional relationship lasted about

1455
01:21:26,479 --> 01:21:33,000
Speaker 5: four to five months, and Billy Flynn would end up

1456
01:21:33,040 --> 01:21:36,040
Speaker 5: testifying that Pamela Smart told him she loved him, that

1457
01:21:36,120 --> 01:21:39,200
Speaker 5: she wanted to be with him long term, but that

1458
01:21:39,280 --> 01:21:42,479
Speaker 5: could never happen as long as her husband was alive,

1459
01:21:45,240 --> 01:21:50,840
Speaker 5: and prosecutors argued successfully into the tune of a life

1460
01:21:50,880 --> 01:21:56,320
Speaker 5: sentence that Smart use sex, affection and emotional reinforcement to

1461
01:21:56,600 --> 01:22:05,120
Speaker 5: manipulate and control Billy Flynn into ultimately helping kill her husband, Gregory.

1462
01:22:05,880 --> 01:22:12,280
Speaker 5: So Flynn didn't act alone. He had two friends. They're

1463
01:22:12,360 --> 01:22:14,559
Speaker 5: now all three of them are now out of prison,

1464
01:22:14,640 --> 01:22:16,360
Speaker 5: so we don't even need to say their names. But

1465
01:22:16,400 --> 01:22:21,280
Speaker 5: it was two other high school boys who were brought

1466
01:22:21,360 --> 01:22:26,920
Speaker 5: into the mix, and according to testimony, Billy Flynn initially

1467
01:22:26,960 --> 01:22:30,880
Speaker 5: discussed committing a burglary at the Smart's condominium.

1468
01:22:32,080 --> 01:22:34,120
Speaker 4: That plan ultimately escalated to.

1469
01:22:34,520 --> 01:22:39,439
Speaker 5: Murder, and prosecutors argued that Pamela Smart knew multiple boys

1470
01:22:39,479 --> 01:22:43,040
Speaker 5: would indeed be involved, and that Flynn was sort of

1471
01:22:43,120 --> 01:22:46,880
Speaker 5: a go between. He was relaying her wishes, and he

1472
01:22:46,960 --> 01:22:51,160
Speaker 5: was doing this prompted by her approval, So.

1473
01:22:51,880 --> 01:22:55,640
Speaker 10: She was sort of telling the information to him and

1474
01:22:55,720 --> 01:22:57,640
Speaker 10: he was telling it to the other boys or they

1475
01:22:57,640 --> 01:22:58,479
Speaker 10: were all working in.

1476
01:22:58,880 --> 01:23:01,360
Speaker 4: Correct, got it exactly?

1477
01:23:01,640 --> 01:23:04,200
Speaker 6: So Pamela never have contact with the other boys.

1478
01:23:04,880 --> 01:23:05,760
Speaker 4: Correct? It was?

1479
01:23:06,040 --> 01:23:06,639
Speaker 10: It couldn't.

1480
01:23:06,680 --> 01:23:07,360
Speaker 4: I didn't remember that.

1481
01:23:07,680 --> 01:23:12,720
Speaker 5: And my thought was, why, you.

1482
01:23:12,680 --> 01:23:16,160
Speaker 4: Know, why would these boys who you know she was

1483
01:23:16,200 --> 01:23:19,920
Speaker 4: not having? Yeah, what would you do? What wouldn't you

1484
01:23:19,960 --> 01:23:21,759
Speaker 4: do for your high school buddies?

1485
01:23:22,479 --> 01:23:23,839
Speaker 10: I don't want you kill somebody.

1486
01:23:24,160 --> 01:23:25,960
Speaker 4: I would kill somebody either. Actually that's a fair point.

1487
01:23:25,960 --> 01:23:26,800
Speaker 10: That was a dumb question.

1488
01:23:27,320 --> 01:23:30,639
Speaker 4: But you do a lot and you're and you're under age.

1489
01:23:30,800 --> 01:23:33,240
Speaker 6: Might I might have at that age broke it into

1490
01:23:33,280 --> 01:23:36,200
Speaker 6: somebody's house and taken like you know, solver or something

1491
01:23:36,320 --> 01:23:37,559
Speaker 6: like I might have.

1492
01:23:37,680 --> 01:23:39,360
Speaker 4: I didn't. I just want to go on.

1493
01:23:39,360 --> 01:23:42,320
Speaker 6: Recommend saying that, but I might have, just because you

1494
01:23:42,439 --> 01:23:46,840
Speaker 6: know your hooligans at that age, right, sometimes, you know, I.

1495
01:23:46,280 --> 01:23:49,120
Speaker 11: Started with a discussion about burglary. Do you think the

1496
01:23:49,160 --> 01:23:52,320
Speaker 11: other two boys were under the idea that maybe this

1497
01:23:52,439 --> 01:23:54,080
Speaker 11: was just going to give burglary.

1498
01:23:53,680 --> 01:23:55,639
Speaker 6: And yeah, maybe they're going to still some video game

1499
01:23:55,640 --> 01:23:57,760
Speaker 6: money and it turned into something much more.

1500
01:23:58,720 --> 01:24:03,000
Speaker 5: But my understanding was that the plan began as just burglary,

1501
01:24:04,080 --> 01:24:05,960
Speaker 5: so no everyone.

1502
01:24:07,320 --> 01:24:08,280
Speaker 4: Knew going in.

1503
01:24:08,479 --> 01:24:13,040
Speaker 5: So on May first of nineteen ninety in Derry, New Hampshire,

1504
01:24:14,200 --> 01:24:18,080
Speaker 5: Pamela Smart left her condo that morning under the pretense

1505
01:24:18,120 --> 01:24:21,599
Speaker 5: of heading off to work, and then Flynn and his

1506
01:24:21,640 --> 01:24:26,120
Speaker 5: two buddies entered the residence where only twenty four year

1507
01:24:26,120 --> 01:24:30,040
Speaker 5: old Greg Smart, Pamela's husband at the time, was home

1508
01:24:30,120 --> 01:24:35,920
Speaker 5: twenty four years old. This man and one of the

1509
01:24:35,960 --> 01:24:40,919
Speaker 5: boys held a knife to Greg Smart's.

1510
01:24:40,800 --> 01:24:43,080
Speaker 4: Throat and Billy Flynn.

1511
01:24:44,240 --> 01:24:49,760
Speaker 5: Shot him with a thirty eight caliber revolver, and the

1512
01:24:49,840 --> 01:24:53,719
Speaker 5: crime scene was staged to look like a botched robbery.

1513
01:24:55,760 --> 01:24:59,280
Speaker 5: It was Smart who called nine one one. She returned

1514
01:24:59,280 --> 01:25:04,080
Speaker 5: home later and nine one one, Oh, my goodness, you know,

1515
01:25:04,120 --> 01:25:06,559
Speaker 5: poor me, I have discovered my husband's body.

1516
01:25:07,840 --> 01:25:11,840
Speaker 4: Which always you start with, you know who places the

1517
01:25:11,880 --> 01:25:12,599
Speaker 4: call and.

1518
01:25:12,760 --> 01:25:14,080
Speaker 10: Answer My earlier questions.

1519
01:25:14,240 --> 01:25:16,920
Speaker 11: Clearly the boys knew if he's holding the knife to

1520
01:25:16,920 --> 01:25:20,000
Speaker 11: the throat and he pulls the trigger, so they all knew, Okay,

1521
01:25:20,040 --> 01:25:23,360
Speaker 11: well now that's queer enough, but okay, we'll keep going

1522
01:25:23,360 --> 01:25:23,800
Speaker 11: because I did.

1523
01:25:23,840 --> 01:25:24,320
Speaker 10: This's great.

1524
01:25:25,360 --> 01:25:27,719
Speaker 4: So again, Pamela Smart was not even there.

1525
01:25:27,800 --> 01:25:31,879
Speaker 5: No one can tested that she didn't physically physically do anything,

1526
01:25:32,280 --> 01:25:34,839
Speaker 5: but the prosecutors again they argued she was the driving

1527
01:25:34,880 --> 01:25:39,639
Speaker 5: force behind it, and testimony included that the three boys stated,

1528
01:25:39,680 --> 01:25:43,559
Speaker 5: that's Smart, so excuse me, I misspoke earlier. There was

1529
01:25:43,560 --> 01:25:46,360
Speaker 5: no sexual contact between Smart and the other boys, but

1530
01:25:46,400 --> 01:25:49,960
Speaker 5: there was some loose contact, just most of it went

1531
01:25:49,960 --> 01:25:55,120
Speaker 5: through flyntis. Testimony from all three said that Pamela Smart

1532
01:25:55,439 --> 01:25:58,280
Speaker 5: spoke repeatedly about oh I wish my husband was dead.

1533
01:25:58,360 --> 01:26:02,120
Speaker 5: She encouraged the plan, She discussed the logistics, the timing,

1534
01:26:02,160 --> 01:26:07,040
Speaker 5: and the alibis, and she was promising this big future

1535
01:26:07,720 --> 01:26:09,160
Speaker 5: with her lover.

1536
01:26:09,160 --> 01:26:12,160
Speaker 4: Slash you know person.

1537
01:26:12,200 --> 01:26:15,320
Speaker 5: She was statutory raping Flynn, and she said it would

1538
01:26:15,320 --> 01:26:20,160
Speaker 5: all be sunshine and roses after the murder. And she

1539
01:26:20,320 --> 01:26:24,760
Speaker 5: also attempted to influence witnesses and control the narrative afterward.

1540
01:26:27,439 --> 01:26:29,519
Speaker 5: So a key piece of evidence and I was so

1541
01:26:29,640 --> 01:26:35,759
Speaker 5: curious of how this came to be. So in this case,

1542
01:26:35,840 --> 01:26:39,559
Speaker 5: there was a coworker of pammel er Smart who became

1543
01:26:39,680 --> 01:26:43,880
Speaker 5: suspicious after Smart made statements to her that suggested knowledge

1544
01:26:43,880 --> 01:26:47,120
Speaker 5: of the murder. So this time the coworker called the police.

1545
01:26:48,120 --> 01:26:52,160
Speaker 5: Investigators asked her to wear a wire, and then there

1546
01:26:52,200 --> 01:26:57,639
Speaker 5: was a conversation recorded where prosecutors alleged that Smart made

1547
01:26:57,720 --> 01:27:03,519
Speaker 5: incriminating remarks and attempted to influenced testimony. And these tapes

1548
01:27:03,560 --> 01:27:07,400
Speaker 5: were used to support the witness tampering charges and undermine

1549
01:27:08,040 --> 01:27:11,240
Speaker 5: Smart's claims that she had no role in the crime.

1550
01:27:12,080 --> 01:27:15,479
Speaker 5: I mean, what do you guys think on its face?

1551
01:27:15,520 --> 01:27:19,360
Speaker 5: So hearing, you know, hearing what's been laid out, Okay,

1552
01:27:19,720 --> 01:27:25,840
Speaker 5: do you give more time to the mastermind adult woman

1553
01:27:26,560 --> 01:27:32,760
Speaker 5: or to the physical you know, to the people who physically.

1554
01:27:32,720 --> 01:27:34,280
Speaker 4: Commit the court killed a man.

1555
01:27:35,360 --> 01:27:38,639
Speaker 11: To me, I think the mastermind because of the age

1556
01:27:38,640 --> 01:27:41,519
Speaker 11: in this particular case, because we're dealing with a fifteen

1557
01:27:41,600 --> 01:27:45,160
Speaker 11: year old who really may not be thinking in the

1558
01:27:45,200 --> 01:27:47,840
Speaker 11: most logical way, and she clearly took a lot of

1559
01:27:47,840 --> 01:27:50,680
Speaker 11: steps to plan all of this out. So for me,

1560
01:27:50,840 --> 01:27:54,240
Speaker 11: it would be the mastermind, but others might disagree.

1561
01:27:54,560 --> 01:28:00,000
Speaker 6: No, I think I think the Mastermind is definitely you know, responsible,

1562
01:28:00,320 --> 01:28:05,040
Speaker 6: criminally obviously, I think, But I don't know if I

1563
01:28:05,120 --> 01:28:09,559
Speaker 6: agree with it being less or more. I think they're

1564
01:28:09,600 --> 01:28:14,599
Speaker 6: both equally responsible. But in this in this specific case, though,

1565
01:28:14,640 --> 01:28:19,120
Speaker 6: I do think that the boy was clearly manipulated. I mean,

1566
01:28:19,160 --> 01:28:21,960
Speaker 6: he was only fifteen years old, but he's not like

1567
01:28:22,120 --> 01:28:25,560
Speaker 6: mentally incapacitated in any way. He doesn't have a Q,

1568
01:28:25,920 --> 01:28:29,840
Speaker 6: he doesn't like there's nothing, you know, nothing debilitating him

1569
01:28:29,880 --> 01:28:32,880
Speaker 6: from making you know, good decisions at fifteen years old.

1570
01:28:33,960 --> 01:28:36,080
Speaker 4: I would never have killed somebody at fifteen years old,

1571
01:28:37,960 --> 01:28:38,720
Speaker 4: but he, you know.

1572
01:28:39,000 --> 01:28:42,680
Speaker 6: I but I do think that, you know, he was

1573
01:28:42,800 --> 01:28:48,400
Speaker 6: manipulated and he was vulnerable. But you know, it's hard

1574
01:28:48,400 --> 01:28:51,040
Speaker 6: to say because in other cases it's gone the other way,

1575
01:28:51,280 --> 01:28:56,040
Speaker 6: you know, where like Gypsy for instance, right, I mean

1576
01:28:56,120 --> 01:28:59,400
Speaker 6: to bring Gypsy rows right. And Nick Nicholas Gotta John,

1577
01:29:00,040 --> 01:29:03,800
Speaker 6: you know, he was the quote unquote person that you

1578
01:29:03,800 --> 01:29:07,920
Speaker 6: know killed Dedie Blanchard her mother because you know, her

1579
01:29:07,960 --> 01:29:10,920
Speaker 6: mother was you know, abusing her for her entire life

1580
01:29:10,960 --> 01:29:15,160
Speaker 6: with Munchausen by proxy. We've covered that a lot. But

1581
01:29:16,479 --> 01:29:19,200
Speaker 6: you know, Nicholas Gotta John is he's got a very

1582
01:29:19,200 --> 01:29:24,680
Speaker 6: low i Q. He's pretty high on the autism spectrum

1583
01:29:24,720 --> 01:29:27,840
Speaker 6: he's got he was highly manipulated, and he's still in jail.

1584
01:29:27,840 --> 01:29:29,400
Speaker 6: But Gypsy's out right.

1585
01:29:29,680 --> 01:29:31,680
Speaker 4: So I don't know how I feel, like it's I

1586
01:29:32,080 --> 01:29:34,639
Speaker 4: just because of Gypsy. I don't know how I feel.

1587
01:29:35,600 --> 01:29:37,760
Speaker 6: Yeah, you know, and there's there's a lot of new

1588
01:29:37,760 --> 01:29:40,400
Speaker 6: stuff with Gypsy I'm gonna talk about, all right, you know,

1589
01:29:42,080 --> 01:29:50,400
Speaker 6: yeah till missing so mad of course, but I bring

1590
01:29:50,439 --> 01:29:51,840
Speaker 6: that up, like I just.

1591
01:29:53,960 --> 01:29:54,720
Speaker 4: I'm conflicted.

1592
01:29:57,040 --> 01:29:59,800
Speaker 11: Do we know why or is there any logic that

1593
01:29:59,840 --> 01:30:02,920
Speaker 11: they said why Gypsy's sentence was less than she got a.

1594
01:30:02,840 --> 01:30:06,000
Speaker 6: Plea deal because she testified against Nicholas go to John.

1595
01:30:07,320 --> 01:30:09,720
Speaker 6: So yeah, she got a plea, but Nicholas was an

1596
01:30:09,720 --> 01:30:10,280
Speaker 6: offered one.

1597
01:30:11,240 --> 01:30:14,160
Speaker 5: Well, the first of the plea deal, you know, gets

1598
01:30:14,240 --> 01:30:20,519
Speaker 5: the golden ticket, right anyway, I didn't mean no, no,

1599
01:30:20,640 --> 01:30:22,920
Speaker 5: you didn't, and you put something on the calendar for

1600
01:30:22,960 --> 01:30:26,959
Speaker 5: this upcoming week. But okay, now back to the Habeas

1601
01:30:27,000 --> 01:30:33,200
Speaker 5: Corpus aka y we were talking about pamelas smart and

1602
01:30:33,320 --> 01:30:36,559
Speaker 5: I actually think I was ready with an eye roll

1603
01:30:36,680 --> 01:30:41,680
Speaker 5: before I read the details. But in this Habeas Carpus

1604
01:30:41,720 --> 01:30:45,360
Speaker 5: that Pamelas Smart has filed, which is both in New

1605
01:30:45,400 --> 01:30:48,280
Speaker 5: Hampshire where she was convicted, as well as in New

1606
01:30:48,360 --> 01:30:54,000
Speaker 5: York where she is incarcerated. Her attorneys argue that transcripts

1607
01:30:54,000 --> 01:30:57,479
Speaker 5: that were provided during the trial included words that were

1608
01:30:57,520 --> 01:31:03,520
Speaker 5: not audible on actual recording, and these words include killed, busted,

1609
01:31:03,640 --> 01:31:08,640
Speaker 5: and murder. And the claim is that this myth misled

1610
01:31:08,720 --> 01:31:09,240
Speaker 5: the jury.

1611
01:31:09,680 --> 01:31:14,599
Speaker 6: Well yeah, yeah, wow, so I don't I don't remember

1612
01:31:15,200 --> 01:31:18,000
Speaker 6: all the details about what happened during this trial, but

1613
01:31:18,160 --> 01:31:21,559
Speaker 6: did so. They're saying the transcript of the audio had

1614
01:31:21,600 --> 01:31:23,800
Speaker 6: these words, but the actual audio did not.

1615
01:31:25,160 --> 01:31:29,920
Speaker 4: That is what they're stipulating. Yeah, they're saying that that

1616
01:31:30,080 --> 01:31:30,760
Speaker 4: is absolutely what.

1617
01:31:30,960 --> 01:31:33,320
Speaker 6: So they didn't play the audio for the jury, They

1618
01:31:33,360 --> 01:31:35,160
Speaker 6: just gave them a transcript of the audio.

1619
01:31:36,040 --> 01:31:39,639
Speaker 11: I wonder, well, yeah, I think they did listen what

1620
01:31:39,800 --> 01:31:42,240
Speaker 11: because I think from what I understand, there was a

1621
01:31:42,280 --> 01:31:45,080
Speaker 11: transcript while they were listening to unclear audio.

1622
01:31:45,600 --> 01:31:49,880
Speaker 6: So of course I've done this. You're you're reading a

1623
01:31:49,920 --> 01:31:52,160
Speaker 6: transcript and you're hearing it. But of course you're going

1624
01:31:52,200 --> 01:31:55,320
Speaker 6: to fill in words that are in the transcript.

1625
01:31:54,800 --> 01:31:59,160
Speaker 4: Right, absolutely, and there's actually this happened to me. I've

1626
01:31:59,160 --> 01:32:00,240
Speaker 4: done this, Yeah.

1627
01:32:00,000 --> 01:32:03,320
Speaker 5: There's a name called an expectation bias that if you're

1628
01:32:03,680 --> 01:32:08,360
Speaker 5: reading a transcript and listening to unclear audio, your brain

1629
01:32:08,479 --> 01:32:10,080
Speaker 5: will quote here the word.

1630
01:32:10,680 --> 01:32:12,719
Speaker 4: So that's one thing.

1631
01:32:13,040 --> 01:32:17,479
Speaker 5: Number two is the pervasive media coverage we talked about

1632
01:32:17,520 --> 01:32:22,000
Speaker 5: that might have tainted the verdict. I'm not sure what

1633
01:32:22,120 --> 01:32:27,519
Speaker 5: legal arguments they are using to buttress that. And then

1634
01:32:28,760 --> 01:32:31,960
Speaker 5: also Smart's attorneys claim she may have been forced to

1635
01:32:32,000 --> 01:32:36,800
Speaker 5: accept guilt on one charge due to strategic decisions by

1636
01:32:36,880 --> 01:32:42,639
Speaker 5: her previous attorney, which would potentially undermine her right to defense.

1637
01:32:43,439 --> 01:32:47,479
Speaker 5: So that's kind of interesting. And then finally, and I

1638
01:32:47,520 --> 01:32:53,599
Speaker 5: find this most interesting is that Smart's attorneys argue that

1639
01:32:53,720 --> 01:32:59,280
Speaker 5: the jury received improper instructions from the judge, including being

1640
01:32:59,320 --> 01:33:04,880
Speaker 5: told to assume to assume premeditation rather than assessing it

1641
01:33:05,040 --> 01:33:07,640
Speaker 5: solely based on evidence presented.

1642
01:33:08,439 --> 01:33:09,479
Speaker 4: That seems wild to me.

1643
01:33:09,600 --> 01:33:12,479
Speaker 11: Yeah, that you would assume premeditated, like why were they

1644
01:33:14,800 --> 01:33:15,919
Speaker 11: That is a little unusual.

1645
01:33:16,320 --> 01:33:17,599
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, I'll be fair.

1646
01:33:17,840 --> 01:33:21,200
Speaker 5: I'm gonna be curious as this if this does go

1647
01:33:21,400 --> 01:33:24,080
Speaker 5: back into court to find out the nitty gritty of

1648
01:33:24,120 --> 01:33:25,839
Speaker 5: these details, because it seems crazy.

1649
01:33:27,760 --> 01:33:31,160
Speaker 6: We have the presumption of innocence, right, you don't presume

1650
01:33:31,400 --> 01:33:36,000
Speaker 6: somebody premeditated something unless there's evidence they premeditated it.

1651
01:33:36,160 --> 01:33:42,960
Speaker 4: Interesting. Okay, that's right. So that is that is everything.

1652
01:33:43,640 --> 01:33:48,000
Speaker 10: Interesting out so well and yeah, it was me back

1653
01:33:48,000 --> 01:33:49,679
Speaker 10: in time and I.

1654
01:33:49,520 --> 01:33:52,280
Speaker 5: Was brought back right with you guys with the tabloid,

1655
01:33:52,520 --> 01:33:55,400
Speaker 5: the tabloids and body. I love you, you know, going

1656
01:33:55,439 --> 01:33:58,680
Speaker 5: through this with your mom flipping through the red Do you.

1657
01:33:58,640 --> 01:34:01,320
Speaker 6: Guys remember those inquirers? They were everywhere. They were in

1658
01:34:01,360 --> 01:34:03,040
Speaker 6: our bathrooms, you were in a kitchen.

1659
01:34:02,800 --> 01:34:06,519
Speaker 10: Table, grocery store. Oh my gosh, I waste time reading

1660
01:34:06,600 --> 01:34:09,479
Speaker 10: them anything. I loved it.

1661
01:34:10,280 --> 01:34:13,719
Speaker 4: I loved it. Yes, Well, listen to you guys.

1662
01:34:13,760 --> 01:34:17,000
Speaker 5: It's been a great Sunday night and as always being

1663
01:34:17,080 --> 01:34:21,800
Speaker 5: joined by Joseph Scott Morgan are forensic expert and we

1664
01:34:21,920 --> 01:34:26,000
Speaker 5: can't wait to uh be with you tomorrow and the

1665
01:34:26,040 --> 01:34:29,200
Speaker 5: rest of the week. And tomorrow we've got some big

1666
01:34:29,280 --> 01:34:33,360
Speaker 5: Ebstein updates and Melissa Gilbert's.

1667
01:34:32,760 --> 01:34:36,280
Speaker 4: In the news. There's some allegations involving her husband. True

1668
01:34:36,320 --> 01:34:36,840
Speaker 4: Crime tonight