WEBVTT - Once a Cheater, Always a Cheater? 0:00:03.080 --> 0:00:05.840 So I met him at his office one evening. The 0:00:05.920 --> 0:00:09.200 sex was great, and then it just was a whirlwind. 0:00:09.400 --> 0:00:13.119 It was a crazy whirlwind, like maybe a few weeks 0:00:13.119 --> 0:00:14.840 into it or a month into it, I said, hey, 0:00:14.840 --> 0:00:17.200 we've got to stop this. You've got a family. I've 0:00:17.239 --> 0:00:19.439 got a family. And so he went home that night 0:00:19.640 --> 0:00:22.320 without telling me and told his wife. It was so 0:00:22.320 --> 0:00:25.560 scary because it blew up all over this small town. 0:00:29.840 --> 0:00:33.440 That's Sarah. She was a young, married mom at her 0:00:33.440 --> 0:00:37.280 twenties when she first met Keith. Keith was her daughter's pediatrician. 0:00:38.520 --> 0:00:40.760 He was also married with a young child. But the 0:00:40.800 --> 0:00:43.880 feeling between the two of them was electric, and Sarah 0:00:43.920 --> 0:00:48.080 couldn't help herself. There was a force, there was an 0:00:48.159 --> 0:00:54.040 energy around our being togethered that was unexpected. Then Keith 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:58.000 told his wife, and his wife, as you might expect, 0:00:58.440 --> 0:01:03.280 told everyone. Suddenly, Sarah and Keith's affair blew up both 0:01:03.320 --> 0:01:07.640 of their lives, but it didn't matter. Sarah was in 0:01:07.760 --> 0:01:11.160 love and it seemed worth it, and for a while 0:01:11.280 --> 0:01:14.200 it actually ended up working out for her. Sarah and 0:01:14.280 --> 0:01:17.480 Keith got married. I thought our life was the best 0:01:17.520 --> 0:01:20.160 life in the world. We just lived life fully. We 0:01:20.280 --> 0:01:23.240 traveled we took our children places, we were involved in 0:01:23.280 --> 0:01:26.959 the community, we had good careers, We loved each other. 0:01:27.959 --> 0:01:33.760 But then her life blew up again. This is she 0:01:33.920 --> 0:01:38.440 wants more. I'm your host, Joe Piazza. Over the past 0:01:38.480 --> 0:01:41.319 seven episodes, we've heard from numerous women who have cheated 0:01:41.400 --> 0:01:45.559 on we are currently cheating on their partners. Every story 0:01:45.640 --> 0:01:48.680 is different, but we do keep hearing some common themes. 0:01:49.200 --> 0:01:52.640 We hear that these affairs tend to empower women, boost 0:01:52.640 --> 0:01:56.920 their self esteem, enrich their sex lives, and sometimes they 0:01:56.960 --> 0:01:59.480 even find the love that they've been missing in their marriage. 0:02:00.480 --> 0:02:02.760 And I've got to tell you, sometimes these interviews have 0:02:02.880 --> 0:02:08.200 made infidelity seem dreaming, like they're the fountain of youth 0:02:08.440 --> 0:02:14.560 or the secret sauce to a more complete and lovely existence. Today, 0:02:14.680 --> 0:02:18.240 in our final episode, we're hearing a different kind of story. 0:02:19.560 --> 0:02:21.880 This is a story that began as a love affair, 0:02:22.720 --> 0:02:26.840 but then there were consequences. It's also a story about karma, 0:02:27.400 --> 0:02:32.120 and karma, my friends, is a real bitch, and we'll 0:02:32.160 --> 0:02:44.079 hear all about it after the break we are back. 0:02:45.680 --> 0:02:47.560 Sarah felt like a new woman when she started the 0:02:47.560 --> 0:02:50.520 affair with Keith. But let's back up a little bit, 0:02:50.560 --> 0:02:52.960 because I want to hear the whole story. I want 0:02:53.040 --> 0:02:55.640 us to start at the very beginning of Sarah's first marriage. 0:02:56.080 --> 0:03:02.079 Before she met Keith, I was married, and I wouldn't 0:03:02.120 --> 0:03:05.040 say that it was an unhappy marriage at all. I 0:03:05.040 --> 0:03:07.400 would say it was a marriage like other marriages. You know, 0:03:07.440 --> 0:03:09.640 the head its great weeks, and it head it's not 0:03:09.760 --> 0:03:12.680 so great weeks. But it was just a nice, steady, 0:03:12.720 --> 0:03:15.079 little marriage. And I was young. I was twenty five, 0:03:15.800 --> 0:03:18.640 I had a child, a baby. My daughter was not 0:03:18.800 --> 0:03:22.680 yet a year old when I met Keith, and he 0:03:22.720 --> 0:03:26.320 was her doctor, and he had some running magazines in 0:03:26.440 --> 0:03:28.880 the lobby and I was reading them, and so we 0:03:28.960 --> 0:03:32.320 started talking about the fact that we both run. They 0:03:32.320 --> 0:03:36.200 were both into running, and Keith was pretty saxy. That 0:03:36.320 --> 0:03:38.920 didn't hurt. The two of them went for a run 0:03:39.000 --> 0:03:42.520 one day and the feeling between them was something Karen 0:03:42.600 --> 0:03:48.040 had never felt before, and afterwards ended up talking for 0:03:49.040 --> 0:03:51.840 probably two hours. I found it so easy to be 0:03:51.920 --> 0:03:55.000 with him, and there was just a sparkle. We didn't 0:03:55.000 --> 0:03:57.600 want to leave after the run, so and that started it. 0:03:58.760 --> 0:04:02.480 So they began an affair a few months ago by 0:04:02.520 --> 0:04:05.160 but then Sarah's guilt took over and she told Keith 0:04:05.200 --> 0:04:10.920 that this just couldn't happen. It had to end. I said, hey, 0:04:10.920 --> 0:04:13.480 we've got to stop this. We've got families. You've got 0:04:13.480 --> 0:04:15.440 a family, I've got a family. We can't do this. 0:04:16.000 --> 0:04:18.440 So he went home and he said, if we go 0:04:18.480 --> 0:04:20.360 back to our families, all I'm going to lose you. 0:04:21.520 --> 0:04:23.840 I have to say that what Keith did next is 0:04:23.839 --> 0:04:26.920 a pretty big, a whole move, And so he went 0:04:26.960 --> 0:04:29.359 home that night without telling me and told his wife. 0:04:29.960 --> 0:04:32.880 It was so scary because it blew up all over 0:04:33.000 --> 0:04:36.039 this small town and became town knowledge. It was on 0:04:36.080 --> 0:04:38.799 the front burner of the town until the next affair 0:04:38.880 --> 0:04:41.240 came along and blew us away, which was a relief 0:04:41.279 --> 0:04:45.000 for me. Become sort of outcast in the town's eyes, 0:04:45.040 --> 0:04:48.200 and then your children's friends parents become very put off 0:04:48.200 --> 0:04:50.440 by you. And that's always hard because when it affects 0:04:50.440 --> 0:04:54.680 your children, you feel it. It's more painful. Everyone was 0:04:54.760 --> 0:05:02.279 gossiping about Sarah and Keith. Everyone had an opinion, and 0:05:02.400 --> 0:05:06.920 in the moment that felt like complete shit. But in hindsight, 0:05:07.440 --> 0:05:12.680 Sarah realized something that I actually found fascinating. You know 0:05:12.720 --> 0:05:18.320 what's interesting is I've discovered this numerous times, not just 0:05:18.360 --> 0:05:22.800 with this affair, but the people who come out the 0:05:22.839 --> 0:05:25.600 loudest and the strongest against an affair. The people who 0:05:25.600 --> 0:05:31.880 are the most indignant are generally the people who are divorced. 0:05:31.920 --> 0:05:36.440 A year later, it resonates, it strikes accord with him somewhere. 0:05:37.400 --> 0:05:39.680 For instance, the woman who played the organ in our 0:05:39.760 --> 0:05:42.360 church in our small town, she hated me, and she 0:05:42.520 --> 0:05:44.400 was vicious in her hatred. You know, some people just 0:05:44.440 --> 0:05:48.520 sort of mildly dislike you or kind of just move 0:05:48.600 --> 0:05:51.880 away from you, but she made sure that I knew 0:05:51.880 --> 0:05:55.360 how much she hated me. Within a year she was divorced. 0:05:56.160 --> 0:05:58.400 The same thing happened with my brother. My brother wouldn't 0:05:58.400 --> 0:06:01.560 speak to me because he loved ex husband. He was 0:06:01.560 --> 0:06:03.200 having an affair at the same time too, but he 0:06:03.240 --> 0:06:08.840 was indignant about mine. That's the kind of the weird 0:06:08.880 --> 0:06:11.039 thing about affairs is like, when you're in one, you 0:06:11.080 --> 0:06:13.279 feel like it's right and that you have the right 0:06:13.320 --> 0:06:16.839 to do it because you are in love and this 0:06:17.000 --> 0:06:19.840 love is bigger than whatever else is out there. But 0:06:20.800 --> 0:06:24.360 then you become indignant about, you know, your best friend's 0:06:24.400 --> 0:06:29.239 husband leaving her so interesting right. Eventually, Keith and Sarah 0:06:29.400 --> 0:06:32.520 ended up leaving their marriages for each other, and they 0:06:32.520 --> 0:06:35.000 were so in love that all of the gossip didn't matter. 0:06:35.520 --> 0:06:38.880 They traveled, they had a great house, they blended their families, 0:06:38.880 --> 0:06:42.159 and they even had kids together. It lasted like this 0:06:42.320 --> 0:06:45.800 for more than a decade. Sarah really thought that what 0:06:45.920 --> 0:06:49.240 she and Keith had was going to last forever, that 0:06:49.320 --> 0:06:54.200 it was a forever love, until one day something changed. 0:06:56.480 --> 0:06:59.200 It really literally never entered my mind that he would 0:06:59.279 --> 0:07:01.520 cheat on me. I just thought our love was so big, 0:07:01.640 --> 0:07:04.640 it was so beautiful. I just didn't think anything would happen. 0:07:05.560 --> 0:07:08.400 Talk me through When that happened, I felt a shift 0:07:08.880 --> 0:07:10.840 between us and I wasn't sure what was going on, 0:07:11.240 --> 0:07:12.640 and I think that at some point I said, are 0:07:12.640 --> 0:07:15.400 you having an affair? And he said no. And then 0:07:15.440 --> 0:07:18.320 one day I went into his office. Our offices were 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:21.360 right next door to each other. I popped in on 0:07:21.440 --> 0:07:23.360 him and he was on the phone and I could 0:07:23.360 --> 0:07:25.200 hear the voice on the other line was a woman, 0:07:26.000 --> 0:07:28.680 and so when he hung up, I said, so, who 0:07:28.680 --> 0:07:32.400 are you talking to? And then he named his best friend, 0:07:33.080 --> 0:07:38.120 a guy. That's when I knew that he was having 0:07:38.120 --> 0:07:39.880 an affair. And then he said, I need to talk 0:07:39.920 --> 0:07:43.720 to you and then we met at home. He said 0:07:43.720 --> 0:07:46.880 we need to go for a drive. The way he 0:07:46.920 --> 0:07:49.920 told me it was awful because I mean, I guess 0:07:49.960 --> 0:07:51.520 there's not a good way to tell someone, right, but 0:07:51.520 --> 0:07:53.400 you would think there would be some dignity around it 0:07:53.440 --> 0:07:56.560 where you could have some time and space. Basically, I 0:07:56.760 --> 0:07:58.440 found out and had to take my kids to soccer. 0:07:58.600 --> 0:08:02.440 So I drove about a block away from our house 0:08:03.040 --> 0:08:05.320 and kind of went down this lane into a little 0:08:05.360 --> 0:08:08.400 field and said I'm in love with someone else. And 0:08:09.040 --> 0:08:11.400 I was furious and asking who it was, and then 0:08:11.480 --> 0:08:14.240 he wouldn't tell me. And when I got out of 0:08:14.280 --> 0:08:17.679 the car, I kicked the door on the passenger side 0:08:17.800 --> 0:08:22.440 so hard that it was horribly bashed in and beaten up. 0:08:22.600 --> 0:08:24.440 And I just thought, well, every time she gets into 0:08:24.480 --> 0:08:26.040 the car, she's going to have to think about me. 0:08:28.040 --> 0:08:32.000 Sarah was shocked. She was shocked, and she was pissed. 0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:35.880 And now at this point in the story, you might 0:08:35.920 --> 0:08:40.559 be thinking, what I did, Sarah, You and Keith got 0:08:40.600 --> 0:08:44.800 together because of an affair, because you both cheated on 0:08:44.880 --> 0:08:48.560 other people. Why are you so surprised that Keith did 0:08:48.600 --> 0:08:54.360 this to you? Well, she was surprised. We never see 0:08:54.400 --> 0:09:00.839 things coming Sarah was completely blindsided. I never had doubts. 0:09:00.880 --> 0:09:05.000 He traveled, you know, he went on trips sometimes, like 0:09:05.200 --> 0:09:10.240 work trips or trips with the guys, and I never thought. 0:09:10.320 --> 0:09:12.160 I just thought our love was so big, it was 0:09:12.240 --> 0:09:15.400 so beautiful. I just didn't think anything would happen. It 0:09:15.559 --> 0:09:18.320 really literally never entered my mind that he would cheat 0:09:18.360 --> 0:09:21.679 on me. Sarah knew of this woman from around town. 0:09:22.280 --> 0:09:24.840 She had heard that there was this sexy frenchwoman, but 0:09:24.960 --> 0:09:27.920 she'd never met her, and she just had to see 0:09:27.920 --> 0:09:32.080 her in person. So she decided to spy on her, 0:09:32.520 --> 0:09:35.079 and she drove to where this other woman played tennis. 0:09:36.000 --> 0:09:37.920 And I went to the racquet club for lunch with 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:39.800 my friend because I had never laid eyes on her, 0:09:40.320 --> 0:09:42.600 and so she was on the courts playing and I 0:09:42.640 --> 0:09:46.160 looked out and I was like, I'm so fucked. She 0:09:46.440 --> 0:09:49.880 was so hot, so incredibly hot, a year older than 0:09:50.120 --> 0:09:53.360 I am. I think she had a French accent. She 0:09:53.480 --> 0:09:57.640 was beautiful, she was athletic, she was smart. God that sucks. 0:09:58.360 --> 0:10:00.400 It sucked. I wanted her to be off and I 0:10:00.440 --> 0:10:03.960 wanted to play young and dumb. Yeah, young and dumb anything, 0:10:04.040 --> 0:10:06.720 But you know, she truly was going to be stiff 0:10:06.720 --> 0:10:12.199 competition for me. He proclaimed that he was in love 0:10:12.240 --> 0:10:16.160 with her, he was definitely going to marry her. He 0:10:16.280 --> 0:10:18.480 was going to leave the family. It wasn't about me, 0:10:18.520 --> 0:10:21.800 and it certainly wasn't about the kids. Keith moved in 0:10:21.840 --> 0:10:26.160 with the sexy frenchwoman, but still Sarah was determined to 0:10:26.200 --> 0:10:29.400 get him back. I thought, oh my gosh, we have 0:10:29.480 --> 0:10:31.640 these children from other marriages that we've been raised together. 0:10:31.679 --> 0:10:34.440 We had full custody of them. We have our own children. 0:10:34.520 --> 0:10:37.960 I'm not like, I'm not doing this by myself. Besides, 0:10:38.000 --> 0:10:40.000 we really do love each other. I know we do. 0:10:40.800 --> 0:10:44.320 Sarah was not going to go down quietly. No, no, no, no. 0:10:44.960 --> 0:10:47.600 She hatched a plan. She found out from some friends 0:10:47.640 --> 0:10:51.480 around town. Small town. Remember, everyone knows everybody else's business. 0:10:51.800 --> 0:10:54.400 She found out that this other woman was about to 0:10:54.440 --> 0:10:57.960 take off to Europe for the whole summer. And so 0:10:58.120 --> 0:11:02.480 I told my friends in my yard one night, drinking 0:11:03.280 --> 0:11:06.440 Gens and Tonics and talking about the situation, I said, 0:11:06.520 --> 0:11:09.280 I am going to seduce him while she's away. I 0:11:09.360 --> 0:11:11.439 will do that. And that is going to cause a 0:11:11.480 --> 0:11:15.200 problem between them, because he said that he's going to 0:11:15.240 --> 0:11:16.840 be honest with her. He hasn't been honest with me, 0:11:16.880 --> 0:11:19.120 but he is going to turn over a leaf and 0:11:19.160 --> 0:11:22.479 be honest with her. So I did. I seduced him. 0:11:22.559 --> 0:11:27.760 It's not hard to seduce him. And you guys got 0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:32.160 back together. Yeah, and so, so basically I had accessed 0:11:32.800 --> 0:11:35.280 the code to his answering machine. We had landlines back then, 0:11:35.320 --> 0:11:37.480 in those clunky answering machines, and so you would call 0:11:37.520 --> 0:11:39.440 the number and put in your code, and you could 0:11:39.440 --> 0:11:42.640 hear the messages. And I could hear her saying, oh 0:11:42.640 --> 0:11:44.800 could you do this to im? And too I love 0:11:44.960 --> 0:11:48.480 and oh you know I'm suffering. I saw. I listened 0:11:48.480 --> 0:11:51.920 to all of the messages, eagerly replayed them, enjoyed them. 0:11:52.760 --> 0:11:56.000 And then I know I sound like an evil person, 0:11:56.080 --> 0:11:59.600 but anyway, and then when she came back, she broke 0:11:59.600 --> 0:12:03.840 it off, and so he moved back in. But could 0:12:03.840 --> 0:12:08.800 it last? Could it? Given Keith's track record, was another 0:12:08.880 --> 0:12:15.480 happy ending possible for Sarah? Passed forward three years. I 0:12:15.559 --> 0:12:18.439 had a big Thanksgiving planned. I've hosted Thanksgiving every year, 0:12:18.960 --> 0:12:21.280 and I had the house. I had done a lot 0:12:21.320 --> 0:12:24.079 of the food already. It was Tuesday. Everyone was arriving 0:12:24.080 --> 0:12:26.840 the next day. On Wednesday. We had everyone from his 0:12:26.880 --> 0:12:28.880 side of the family coming, my side of the family coming, 0:12:29.360 --> 0:12:33.640 and I decided to go for a run. And the 0:12:33.720 --> 0:12:35.680 phone was ringing as I was leaving to go for 0:12:35.679 --> 0:12:37.720 the run, and I almost didn't answer it, and I 0:12:37.800 --> 0:12:39.880 was like, what if it's one of the kids' schools, 0:12:39.880 --> 0:12:41.960 what if someone's sick. I guess I'd better answer, and 0:12:41.960 --> 0:12:46.760 it answered it and it was the fiance of the 0:12:46.880 --> 0:12:53.720 woman that he had had the affair with. By the way, 0:12:53.840 --> 0:12:57.000 this is the new fiance of the sexy frenchwoman that 0:12:57.080 --> 0:13:02.559 Keith had left Sarah for three years earlier. This new fiance, well, 0:13:02.640 --> 0:13:06.439 he had some news. He discovered that the sexy frenchwoman 0:13:06.600 --> 0:13:09.440 was still having an affair with Keith. You know, Keith 0:13:09.480 --> 0:13:12.840 had still been seeing her. So I went to his office. 0:13:12.840 --> 0:13:14.120 I called him in. I said, I've got to talk 0:13:14.160 --> 0:13:15.679 to you, and he goes, I'm busy, I got appointments. 0:13:15.679 --> 0:13:17.200 I go, I don't care. And then I went and 0:13:17.240 --> 0:13:19.120 I just said, you're gonna get on the phone and 0:13:19.120 --> 0:13:22.080 you're gonna call everyone and you're gonna tell him what 0:13:22.120 --> 0:13:25.600 you did and why we're canceling Thanksgiving. But I'm not 0:13:25.640 --> 0:13:27.719 doing Thanksgiving and I'm not having all these people come 0:13:27.720 --> 0:13:31.440 in with this hanging around. There's no way. And at 0:13:31.440 --> 0:13:33.200 that point there was just like it was like a 0:13:33.240 --> 0:13:36.720 garage door that went down. I was done this time. 0:13:36.960 --> 0:13:41.920 Sarah was finally and truly done. But she did tell 0:13:41.960 --> 0:13:44.160 me that she doesn't regret getting him back for those 0:13:44.200 --> 0:13:47.160 three years. She says she's happy that her kids got 0:13:47.200 --> 0:13:49.959 three more years with both parents under the same roof. 0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:55.040 Of course, she says that in hindsight, in the moment 0:13:55.640 --> 0:14:00.480 she was insane with fury. It's sort of ironic how 0:14:00.520 --> 0:14:03.800 we won't accept for ourselves what we're willing to do sometimes. 0:14:04.600 --> 0:14:08.520 But I was furious. Yes, you were furious, and you 0:14:08.559 --> 0:14:13.080 didn't expect it, and you were a little bit vidictive 0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:15.600 about it. Can you talk to me about that? So 0:14:16.520 --> 0:14:20.200 I went to take the children back to their dad's 0:14:20.200 --> 0:14:23.120 house while he was living with her, and he was gone, 0:14:23.320 --> 0:14:26.080 and they needed a book bag or a school bag something, 0:14:26.200 --> 0:14:29.600 and so we went in to get their bag, and 0:14:30.440 --> 0:14:33.560 I decided I was going to use the restroom, and 0:14:33.800 --> 0:14:38.240 I saw her toilet rees sitting on the counter, and 0:14:38.360 --> 0:14:42.760 I saw a jar of oil of La face cream, 0:14:43.240 --> 0:14:46.160 and so I took a piss in the face cream 0:14:46.960 --> 0:14:50.360 and took a toothpick and stirred it up and put 0:14:50.360 --> 0:14:52.440 the lid back on, And then every time I saw 0:14:52.440 --> 0:14:56.480 her after that, I thought, you're wearing my piss on 0:14:56.480 --> 0:15:01.800 your face, and you've got my p your face, So yeah, 0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:05.400 you were pissed. I was literally pissed. Right, Why do 0:15:05.440 --> 0:15:07.360 you think that was even though you had been on 0:15:07.360 --> 0:15:09.600 the other side of this. I was so sure of 0:15:09.640 --> 0:15:13.119 our love. I was so sure of it. I expected 0:15:13.160 --> 0:15:15.160 that we were going to bring our grand babies home 0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:17.160 to that house where we had brought our children home, 0:15:17.160 --> 0:15:19.680 to that big, beautiful house. I thought we were going 0:15:19.760 --> 0:15:24.960 to continue to travel and throw parties and do all 0:15:25.000 --> 0:15:27.880 the fun things. We just had a big life. There 0:15:28.000 --> 0:15:30.640 was just no part of me believe that believed in 0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:37.400 the dissolution of that. Weirdly, I asked Sarah if she 0:15:37.520 --> 0:15:41.080 ever thought that maybe Keith's first wife felt the exact 0:15:41.120 --> 0:15:44.920 same way about her all those years ago. I never 0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:48.000 thought about that. Maybe so maybe. So how do you 0:15:48.000 --> 0:15:51.920 feel about affairs now? I think it's really complicated. I 0:15:51.960 --> 0:15:54.920 don't think there was really black and white in affairs. 0:15:54.960 --> 0:15:57.640 I think that I have a lot of empathy and 0:15:57.680 --> 0:16:00.440 compassion for people who fall in love and are married 0:16:00.480 --> 0:16:03.280 to other people. I have good friends to whom this 0:16:03.360 --> 0:16:06.800 has happened, and so I have compassion for it, and 0:16:06.840 --> 0:16:12.840 I'm also revolted by it. I hate affairs, so I mean, 0:16:12.960 --> 0:16:14.760 unpack that a little bit for me. How can you 0:16:14.800 --> 0:16:18.320 feel that way when it also brought you the person 0:16:18.360 --> 0:16:19.960 who was, for a time the love of your life 0:16:19.960 --> 0:16:23.400 and two more of your kids. I guess I've never 0:16:23.560 --> 0:16:27.640 stopped to think about that. I guess when I'm mad 0:16:27.680 --> 0:16:30.880 about affairs, it's typically happening to someone that I care 0:16:30.960 --> 0:16:34.440 very much about. And I don't care about the affair 0:16:34.480 --> 0:16:36.080 that's going on out there where I'm not connected to 0:16:36.120 --> 0:16:39.560 the person. That's their business. And you know, people have affairs, 0:16:40.200 --> 0:16:42.560 but if it's happening to someone I love, it depends 0:16:42.560 --> 0:16:44.920 on which side they're on. If they're having the affair, 0:16:45.000 --> 0:16:46.920 I have empathy for them. If it's happening to them, 0:16:47.040 --> 0:16:51.360 I'm curious. I had to know if Sarah's experience has 0:16:51.400 --> 0:16:55.560 made her think at all differently about monogamy, if her 0:16:55.600 --> 0:16:59.240 ideas about it have shifted after everything that she's been through. 0:17:01.320 --> 0:17:03.760 So I have friends, and I think maybe younger people 0:17:04.440 --> 0:17:08.960 are figuring this out in our defining relationships in different ways. 0:17:09.480 --> 0:17:13.320 And I think They're basically saying, we're not going to 0:17:13.400 --> 0:17:16.119 do what our parents did, which was lie and cheat 0:17:16.280 --> 0:17:20.399 and revise stories and tell us lies for all of 0:17:20.400 --> 0:17:22.200 our lives. We are going to do it our way. 0:17:22.200 --> 0:17:24.720 We realize that we don't want to be monogamous, so 0:17:24.800 --> 0:17:29.200 we are in an open relationship. And I do appreciate 0:17:29.240 --> 0:17:33.920 the fact that polyamorous people and thruffles and open marriages 0:17:34.080 --> 0:17:37.359 might bring some relief to the tension and pressure that 0:17:37.520 --> 0:17:41.720 affairs brought to us. I know affairs are still going 0:17:41.720 --> 0:17:45.280 on to this day, but I think millennials and gen 0:17:45.359 --> 0:17:49.560 zers are figuring out a little bit better. Maybe. And Yet, 0:17:49.920 --> 0:17:53.720 while polyamory and open marriages seem to be an answer 0:17:53.920 --> 0:17:56.879 for some women, at least some women in a certain 0:17:56.920 --> 0:18:00.800 generation with certain privileges, they could also come with the 0:18:00.880 --> 0:18:06.640 same messages, the same drama, the same disappointments. There may 0:18:06.680 --> 0:18:09.280 not be lying, but there are still people who are 0:18:09.280 --> 0:18:11.399 going to get hurt and boundaries that need to be 0:18:11.440 --> 0:18:16.399 constantly renegotiated every time they're crossed. But back to Sarah 0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:20.160 for a second. Sarah did eventually get her happy ending, 0:18:20.920 --> 0:18:26.600 it just wasn't the one that she expected. I was 0:18:26.760 --> 0:18:28.439 never going to get married again, I'm obviously not very 0:18:28.440 --> 0:18:31.800 good at marriage, and I'm okay with accepting that about myself. 0:18:32.080 --> 0:18:35.359 But with my current husband, as I call him, he 0:18:35.440 --> 0:18:37.080 hates to be called out, but I call him that. 0:18:37.359 --> 0:18:41.280 We've been together twenty he's just the opposite of Keith, 0:18:42.800 --> 0:18:46.440 and we have such such a wonderful relationship and such 0:18:46.480 --> 0:18:48.800 a happy life. So it turns out that happy lives 0:18:48.800 --> 0:18:51.280 can happen even if you hold on to that one 0:18:51.560 --> 0:18:53.919 that you think this is it and I can't let 0:18:53.960 --> 0:18:56.840 it go. If you just open up, I'm so much 0:18:56.840 --> 0:19:03.960 better off. I mean, it's been wonderful. Affairs usually don't 0:19:03.960 --> 0:19:08.240 go according to plan, but then neither does life. After 0:19:08.280 --> 0:19:10.080 the break, we'll get back to the questions we sit 0:19:10.119 --> 0:19:13.240 out to answer at the beginning of this podcast, are 0:19:13.320 --> 0:19:16.760 more women having affairs? And if women are cheating more? 0:19:17.560 --> 0:19:25.280 Why we are back? So after all of these conversations 0:19:25.320 --> 0:19:28.240 and everything I've learned about women and affairs, I went 0:19:28.280 --> 0:19:31.080 back to Susan Shapiro Barish, the author of the book 0:19:31.080 --> 0:19:34.760 this podcast is based on. Susan has interviewed hundreds of 0:19:34.760 --> 0:19:37.679 women who've had affairs over the past thirty years, and 0:19:37.760 --> 0:19:39.800 she was able to tell me that through her research. 0:19:40.119 --> 0:19:43.520 She can tell us that women absolutely are having more 0:19:43.560 --> 0:19:49.080 affairs these days, and they're talking about it more so. 0:19:49.119 --> 0:19:52.000 I do think there's an increase, and that includes affairs 0:19:52.040 --> 0:19:55.879 of the mind and workplace affairs and just all sorts 0:19:55.880 --> 0:19:59.080 of affairs. As I write in my book, you can 0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:03.919 find these low vers at every turn. Accessibility to one's 0:20:04.000 --> 0:20:10.440 lover has really evolved since I started this study, and 0:20:11.280 --> 0:20:16.359 the access to a lover is so facil and so easy, 0:20:16.600 --> 0:20:20.679 and women found that really encouraging. I mean, some women 0:20:20.800 --> 0:20:24.320 described it as a really good reason to do it. 0:20:24.720 --> 0:20:28.200 You know, it's so easy to go on Facebook. Women say, well, 0:20:28.200 --> 0:20:33.040 you know, I'm about ready, I'm disappointed enough, I'm disillusioned enough. 0:20:33.240 --> 0:20:36.359 I've been at this a long time and I have 0:20:36.600 --> 0:20:39.320 access and I would like to explore it. So that's 0:20:39.359 --> 0:20:45.000 really something that's evolved. We called this show She Wants More. 0:20:45.680 --> 0:20:47.920 We called it that because it's about women going after 0:20:48.000 --> 0:20:52.720 what they want, breaking barriers, destroying stigmas, finding empowerment in 0:20:52.800 --> 0:20:55.320 places that have been closed off to them by society 0:20:55.359 --> 0:20:58.800 and culture for so long. At the end of the day, 0:20:58.840 --> 0:21:03.040 affairs can empower you, and they can also leave a 0:21:03.080 --> 0:21:07.000 mess in their wake. But there's still the fact that 0:21:07.040 --> 0:21:09.959 women tend to be judged much more harshly for their 0:21:10.000 --> 0:21:13.119 affairs than men do. That is why we needed to 0:21:13.160 --> 0:21:16.760 hear these stories. We needed to hear these stories so 0:21:16.800 --> 0:21:19.000 we can talk about it. We need to hear these 0:21:19.000 --> 0:21:23.159 stories so we can figure out what we all want 0:21:23.920 --> 0:21:29.800 and deserve. If we've learned anything making this podcast, there's 0:21:29.840 --> 0:21:33.280 nothing wrong with wanting to be happy and fulfilled. There's 0:21:33.359 --> 0:21:39.639 nothing wrong with wanting more. Did you take my coffee? 0:21:40.000 --> 0:21:43.760 Didn't touch a coffee? Oh that's my husband Nick. He 0:21:43.840 --> 0:21:46.720 always pops in on my podcasts and we've managed to 0:21:46.800 --> 0:21:51.120 keep him off this one until right now. All right, 0:21:52.200 --> 0:21:54.760 are you going to go have an affair? Now? No, 0:21:55.160 --> 0:22:00.359 I'm tired, I'm stressed, I have a million jobs. I 0:22:00.480 --> 0:22:02.520 mostly don't even want to have sex with you. Oh 0:22:02.600 --> 0:22:07.960 isn't that precious? Oh? No idea. But also, look, I'm 0:22:08.000 --> 0:22:11.880 pretty happy on the happiness and fulfilled human scale, I'm 0:22:11.880 --> 0:22:15.040 like a nine. But there are a lot of women 0:22:15.080 --> 0:22:18.320 out there who are not happy in their marriages, who 0:22:18.359 --> 0:22:21.760 don't feel fulfilled, who don't have husbands, who take both 0:22:21.840 --> 0:22:25.200 kids to school in the morning like you just did, 0:22:25.760 --> 0:22:29.359 and who are not getting what they need. And I 0:22:29.520 --> 0:22:34.479 talk to those women and I get that they deserve 0:22:34.600 --> 0:22:38.840 something else outside of their marriage, and do I think 0:22:38.840 --> 0:22:41.919 it's right? Not always, but it's not my place to judge. 0:22:42.240 --> 0:22:48.800 And frankly, men have been having the affairs forever, and 0:22:49.000 --> 0:22:51.200 I think it's just time that women get the same. 0:22:51.440 --> 0:22:55.840 Goddamn grace. I have a lot of questions about that. 0:22:56.080 --> 0:22:59.360 But so you're going to delete that Ashley Madison account? 0:23:00.080 --> 0:23:03.880 Oh shit, totally forgot that was still out there. Wait 0:23:03.920 --> 0:23:12.400 do you see mine? This has been She Wants More. 0:23:14.480 --> 0:23:17.000 All eight episodes are now available for you to binge 0:23:17.600 --> 0:23:20.560 and share with your friends. I hope it starts some 0:23:20.640 --> 0:23:28.320 fun conversations. She Wants More was inspired by the book 0:23:28.359 --> 0:23:32.200 A Passion for More by Susan Shapiro Bearish. It was 0:23:32.240 --> 0:23:36.720 adapted for audio by executive producers Merrill Poster, Kara Pfeiffer, 0:23:37.080 --> 0:23:40.600 and Susan Shapiro Bearish. She Wants More is hosted and 0:23:40.640 --> 0:23:44.800 reported by me Joe Piazza. Jennifer Bassett is our lead 0:23:44.840 --> 0:23:49.200 producer and story editor. Our sound design is by Jessica Crunchich. 0:23:49.800 --> 0:23:53.280 Our theme was composed by Anna Stumpff and Hamilton Lighthouser. 0:23:53.920 --> 0:23:57.800 Our Executive producers for iHeart are Ali Perry and Nikki Eatore. 0:23:58.880 --> 0:24:02.400 She wants more as a production of iHeart podcasts. From 0:24:02.400 --> 0:24:06.320 more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 0:24:06.760 --> 0:24:08.639 or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.