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Speaker 1: So I met him at his office one evening. The

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Speaker 1: sex was great, and then it just was a whirlwind.

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Speaker 1: It was a crazy whirlwind, like maybe a few weeks

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Speaker 1: into it or a month into it, I said, hey,

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Speaker 1: we've got to stop this. You've got a family. I've

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Speaker 1: got a family. And so he went home that night

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Speaker 1: without telling me and told his wife. It was so

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Speaker 1: scary because it blew up all over this small town.

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Speaker 1: That's Sarah. She was a young, married mom at her

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Speaker 1: twenties when she first met Keith. Keith was her daughter's pediatrician.

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Speaker 1: He was also married with a young child. But the

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Speaker 1: feeling between the two of them was electric, and Sarah

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Speaker 1: couldn't help herself. There was a force, there was an

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Speaker 1: energy around our being togethered that was unexpected. Then Keith

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Speaker 1: told his wife, and his wife, as you might expect,

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Speaker 1: told everyone. Suddenly, Sarah and Keith's affair blew up both

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Speaker 1: of their lives, but it didn't matter. Sarah was in

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Speaker 1: love and it seemed worth it, and for a while

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Speaker 1: it actually ended up working out for her. Sarah and

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Speaker 1: Keith got married. I thought our life was the best

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Speaker 1: life in the world. We just lived life fully. We

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Speaker 1: traveled we took our children places, we were involved in

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Speaker 1: the community, we had good careers, We loved each other.

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Speaker 1: But then her life blew up again. This is she

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Speaker 1: wants more. I'm your host, Joe Piazza. Over the past

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Speaker 1: seven episodes, we've heard from numerous women who have cheated

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Speaker 1: on we are currently cheating on their partners. Every story

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Speaker 1: is different, but we do keep hearing some common themes.

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Speaker 1: We hear that these affairs tend to empower women, boost

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Speaker 1: their self esteem, enrich their sex lives, and sometimes they

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Speaker 1: even find the love that they've been missing in their marriage.

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Speaker 1: And I've got to tell you, sometimes these interviews have

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Speaker 1: made infidelity seem dreaming, like they're the fountain of youth

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Speaker 1: or the secret sauce to a more complete and lovely existence. Today,

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Speaker 1: in our final episode, we're hearing a different kind of story.

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Speaker 1: This is a story that began as a love affair,

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Speaker 1: but then there were consequences. It's also a story about karma,

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Speaker 1: and karma, my friends, is a real bitch, and we'll

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Speaker 1: hear all about it after the break we are back.

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Speaker 1: Sarah felt like a new woman when she started the

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Speaker 1: affair with Keith. But let's back up a little bit,

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Speaker 1: because I want to hear the whole story. I want

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Speaker 1: us to start at the very beginning of Sarah's first marriage.

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Speaker 1: Before she met Keith, I was married, and I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: say that it was an unhappy marriage at all. I

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Speaker 1: would say it was a marriage like other marriages. You know,

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Speaker 1: the head its great weeks, and it head it's not

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Speaker 1: so great weeks. But it was just a nice, steady,

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Speaker 1: little marriage. And I was young. I was twenty five,

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Speaker 1: I had a child, a baby. My daughter was not

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Speaker 1: yet a year old when I met Keith, and he

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Speaker 1: was her doctor, and he had some running magazines in

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Speaker 1: the lobby and I was reading them, and so we

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Speaker 1: started talking about the fact that we both run. They

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Speaker 1: were both into running, and Keith was pretty saxy. That

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Speaker 1: didn't hurt. The two of them went for a run

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Speaker 1: one day and the feeling between them was something Karen

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Speaker 1: had never felt before, and afterwards ended up talking for

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Speaker 1: probably two hours. I found it so easy to be

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Speaker 1: with him, and there was just a sparkle. We didn't

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Speaker 1: want to leave after the run, so and that started it.

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Speaker 1: So they began an affair a few months ago by

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Speaker 1: but then Sarah's guilt took over and she told Keith

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Speaker 1: that this just couldn't happen. It had to end. I said, hey,

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Speaker 1: we've got to stop this. We've got families. You've got

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Speaker 1: a family, I've got a family. We can't do this.

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Speaker 1: So he went home and he said, if we go

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Speaker 1: back to our families, all I'm going to lose you.

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Speaker 1: I have to say that what Keith did next is

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Speaker 1: a pretty big, a whole move, And so he went

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Speaker 1: home that night without telling me and told his wife.

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Speaker 1: It was so scary because it blew up all over

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Speaker 1: this small town and became town knowledge. It was on

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Speaker 1: the front burner of the town until the next affair

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Speaker 1: came along and blew us away, which was a relief

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Speaker 1: for me. Become sort of outcast in the town's eyes,

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Speaker 1: and then your children's friends parents become very put off

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Speaker 1: by you. And that's always hard because when it affects

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Speaker 1: your children, you feel it. It's more painful. Everyone was

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Speaker 1: gossiping about Sarah and Keith. Everyone had an opinion, and

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Speaker 1: in the moment that felt like complete shit. But in hindsight,

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Speaker 1: Sarah realized something that I actually found fascinating. You know

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Speaker 1: what's interesting is I've discovered this numerous times, not just

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Speaker 1: with this affair, but the people who come out the

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Speaker 1: loudest and the strongest against an affair. The people who

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Speaker 1: are the most indignant are generally the people who are divorced.

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Speaker 1: A year later, it resonates, it strikes accord with him somewhere.

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Speaker 1: For instance, the woman who played the organ in our

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Speaker 1: church in our small town, she hated me, and she

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Speaker 1: was vicious in her hatred. You know, some people just

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Speaker 1: sort of mildly dislike you or kind of just move

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Speaker 1: away from you, but she made sure that I knew

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Speaker 1: how much she hated me. Within a year she was divorced.

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Speaker 1: The same thing happened with my brother. My brother wouldn't

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Speaker 1: speak to me because he loved ex husband. He was

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Speaker 1: having an affair at the same time too, but he

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Speaker 1: was indignant about mine. That's the kind of the weird

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Speaker 1: thing about affairs is like, when you're in one, you

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Speaker 1: feel like it's right and that you have the right

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Speaker 1: to do it because you are in love and this

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Speaker 1: love is bigger than whatever else is out there. But

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Speaker 1: then you become indignant about, you know, your best friend's

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Speaker 1: husband leaving her so interesting right. Eventually, Keith and Sarah

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Speaker 1: ended up leaving their marriages for each other, and they

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Speaker 1: were so in love that all of the gossip didn't matter.

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Speaker 1: They traveled, they had a great house, they blended their families,

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Speaker 1: and they even had kids together. It lasted like this

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Speaker 1: for more than a decade. Sarah really thought that what

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Speaker 1: she and Keith had was going to last forever, that

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Speaker 1: it was a forever love, until one day something changed.

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Speaker 1: It really literally never entered my mind that he would

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Speaker 1: cheat on me. I just thought our love was so big,

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Speaker 1: it was so beautiful. I just didn't think anything would happen.

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Speaker 1: Talk me through When that happened, I felt a shift

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Speaker 1: between us and I wasn't sure what was going on,

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Speaker 1: and I think that at some point I said, are

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Speaker 1: you having an affair? And he said no. And then

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Speaker 1: one day I went into his office. Our offices were

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Speaker 1: right next door to each other. I popped in on

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Speaker 1: him and he was on the phone and I could

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Speaker 1: hear the voice on the other line was a woman,

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Speaker 1: and so when he hung up, I said, so, who

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Speaker 1: are you talking to? And then he named his best friend,

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Speaker 1: a guy. That's when I knew that he was having

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Speaker 1: an affair. And then he said, I need to talk

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Speaker 1: to you and then we met at home. He said

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Speaker 1: we need to go for a drive. The way he

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Speaker 1: told me it was awful because I mean, I guess

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Speaker 1: there's not a good way to tell someone, right, but

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Speaker 1: you would think there would be some dignity around it

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Speaker 1: where you could have some time and space. Basically, I

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Speaker 1: found out and had to take my kids to soccer.

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Speaker 1: So I drove about a block away from our house

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Speaker 1: and kind of went down this lane into a little

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Speaker 1: field and said I'm in love with someone else. And

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Speaker 1: I was furious and asking who it was, and then

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Speaker 1: he wouldn't tell me. And when I got out of

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Speaker 1: the car, I kicked the door on the passenger side

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Speaker 1: so hard that it was horribly bashed in and beaten up.

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Speaker 1: And I just thought, well, every time she gets into

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Speaker 1: the car, she's going to have to think about me.

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Speaker 1: Sarah was shocked. She was shocked, and she was pissed.

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Speaker 1: And now at this point in the story, you might

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Speaker 1: be thinking, what I did, Sarah, You and Keith got

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Speaker 1: together because of an affair, because you both cheated on

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Speaker 1: other people. Why are you so surprised that Keith did

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Speaker 1: this to you? Well, she was surprised. We never see

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Speaker 1: things coming Sarah was completely blindsided. I never had doubts.

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Speaker 1: He traveled, you know, he went on trips sometimes, like

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Speaker 1: work trips or trips with the guys, and I never thought.

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Speaker 1: I just thought our love was so big, it was

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Speaker 1: so beautiful. I just didn't think anything would happen. It

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Speaker 1: really literally never entered my mind that he would cheat

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Speaker 1: on me. Sarah knew of this woman from around town.

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Speaker 1: She had heard that there was this sexy frenchwoman, but

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Speaker 1: she'd never met her, and she just had to see

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Speaker 1: her in person. So she decided to spy on her,

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Speaker 1: and she drove to where this other woman played tennis.

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Speaker 1: And I went to the racquet club for lunch with

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Speaker 1: my friend because I had never laid eyes on her,

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Speaker 1: and so she was on the courts playing and I

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Speaker 1: looked out and I was like, I'm so fucked. She

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Speaker 1: was so hot, so incredibly hot, a year older than

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Speaker 1: I am. I think she had a French accent. She

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Speaker 1: was beautiful, she was athletic, she was smart. God that sucks.

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Speaker 1: It sucked. I wanted her to be off and I

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Speaker 1: wanted to play young and dumb. Yeah, young and dumb anything,

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Speaker 1: But you know, she truly was going to be stiff

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Speaker 1: competition for me. He proclaimed that he was in love

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Speaker 1: with her, he was definitely going to marry her. He

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Speaker 1: was going to leave the family. It wasn't about me,

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Speaker 1: and it certainly wasn't about the kids. Keith moved in

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Speaker 1: with the sexy frenchwoman, but still Sarah was determined to

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Speaker 1: get him back. I thought, oh my gosh, we have

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Speaker 1: these children from other marriages that we've been raised together.

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Speaker 1: We had full custody of them. We have our own children.

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Speaker 1: I'm not like, I'm not doing this by myself. Besides,

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Speaker 1: we really do love each other. I know we do.

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Speaker 1: Sarah was not going to go down quietly. No, no, no, no.

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Speaker 1: She hatched a plan. She found out from some friends

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Speaker 1: around town. Small town. Remember, everyone knows everybody else's business.

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Speaker 1: She found out that this other woman was about to

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Speaker 1: take off to Europe for the whole summer. And so

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Speaker 1: I told my friends in my yard one night, drinking

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Speaker 1: Gens and Tonics and talking about the situation, I said,

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Speaker 1: I am going to seduce him while she's away. I

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Speaker 1: will do that. And that is going to cause a

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Speaker 1: problem between them, because he said that he's going to

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Speaker 1: be honest with her. He hasn't been honest with me,

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Speaker 1: but he is going to turn over a leaf and

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Speaker 1: be honest with her. So I did. I seduced him.

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Speaker 1: It's not hard to seduce him. And you guys got

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Speaker 1: back together. Yeah, and so, so basically I had accessed

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Speaker 1: the code to his answering machine. We had landlines back then,

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Speaker 1: in those clunky answering machines, and so you would call

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Speaker 1: the number and put in your code, and you could

197
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Speaker 1: hear the messages. And I could hear her saying, oh

198
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Speaker 1: could you do this to im? And too I love

199
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Speaker 1: and oh you know I'm suffering. I saw. I listened

200
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Speaker 1: to all of the messages, eagerly replayed them, enjoyed them.

201
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Speaker 1: And then I know I sound like an evil person,

202
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Speaker 1: but anyway, and then when she came back, she broke

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Speaker 1: it off, and so he moved back in. But could

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Speaker 1: it last? Could it? Given Keith's track record, was another

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Speaker 1: happy ending possible for Sarah? Passed forward three years. I

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Speaker 1: had a big Thanksgiving planned. I've hosted Thanksgiving every year,

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Speaker 1: and I had the house. I had done a lot

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Speaker 1: of the food already. It was Tuesday. Everyone was arriving

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Speaker 1: the next day. On Wednesday. We had everyone from his

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Speaker 1: side of the family coming, my side of the family coming,

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Speaker 1: and I decided to go for a run. And the

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Speaker 1: phone was ringing as I was leaving to go for

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Speaker 1: the run, and I almost didn't answer it, and I

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Speaker 1: was like, what if it's one of the kids' schools,

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Speaker 1: what if someone's sick. I guess I'd better answer, and

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Speaker 1: it answered it and it was the fiance of the

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Speaker 1: woman that he had had the affair with. By the way,

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Speaker 1: this is the new fiance of the sexy frenchwoman that

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Speaker 1: Keith had left Sarah for three years earlier. This new fiance, well,

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Speaker 1: he had some news. He discovered that the sexy frenchwoman

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Speaker 1: was still having an affair with Keith. You know, Keith

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Speaker 1: had still been seeing her. So I went to his office.

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Speaker 1: I called him in. I said, I've got to talk

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Speaker 1: to you, and he goes, I'm busy, I got appointments.

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Speaker 1: I go, I don't care. And then I went and

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Speaker 1: I just said, you're gonna get on the phone and

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Speaker 1: you're gonna call everyone and you're gonna tell him what

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Speaker 1: you did and why we're canceling Thanksgiving. But I'm not

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Speaker 1: doing Thanksgiving and I'm not having all these people come

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Speaker 1: in with this hanging around. There's no way. And at

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Speaker 1: that point there was just like it was like a

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Speaker 1: garage door that went down. I was done this time.

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Speaker 1: Sarah was finally and truly done. But she did tell

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Speaker 1: me that she doesn't regret getting him back for those

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Speaker 1: three years. She says she's happy that her kids got

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Speaker 1: three more years with both parents under the same roof.

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Speaker 1: Of course, she says that in hindsight, in the moment

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Speaker 1: she was insane with fury. It's sort of ironic how

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Speaker 1: we won't accept for ourselves what we're willing to do sometimes.

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Speaker 1: But I was furious. Yes, you were furious, and you

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Speaker 1: didn't expect it, and you were a little bit vidictive

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Speaker 1: about it. Can you talk to me about that? So

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Speaker 1: I went to take the children back to their dad's

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Speaker 1: house while he was living with her, and he was gone,

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Speaker 1: and they needed a book bag or a school bag something,

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Speaker 1: and so we went in to get their bag, and

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Speaker 1: I decided I was going to use the restroom, and

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Speaker 1: I saw her toilet rees sitting on the counter, and

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Speaker 1: I saw a jar of oil of La face cream,

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Speaker 1: and so I took a piss in the face cream

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Speaker 1: and took a toothpick and stirred it up and put

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Speaker 1: the lid back on, And then every time I saw

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Speaker 1: her after that, I thought, you're wearing my piss on

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Speaker 1: your face, and you've got my p your face, So yeah,

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Speaker 1: you were pissed. I was literally pissed. Right, Why do

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Speaker 1: you think that was even though you had been on

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Speaker 1: the other side of this. I was so sure of

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Speaker 1: our love. I was so sure of it. I expected

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Speaker 1: that we were going to bring our grand babies home

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Speaker 1: to that house where we had brought our children home,

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Speaker 1: to that big, beautiful house. I thought we were going

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Speaker 1: to continue to travel and throw parties and do all

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Speaker 1: the fun things. We just had a big life. There

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Speaker 1: was just no part of me believe that believed in

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Speaker 1: the dissolution of that. Weirdly, I asked Sarah if she

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Speaker 1: ever thought that maybe Keith's first wife felt the exact

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Speaker 1: same way about her all those years ago. I never

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Speaker 1: thought about that. Maybe so maybe. So how do you

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Speaker 1: feel about affairs now? I think it's really complicated. I

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Speaker 1: don't think there was really black and white in affairs.

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Speaker 1: I think that I have a lot of empathy and

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Speaker 1: compassion for people who fall in love and are married

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Speaker 1: to other people. I have good friends to whom this

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Speaker 1: has happened, and so I have compassion for it, and

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Speaker 1: I'm also revolted by it. I hate affairs, so I mean,

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Speaker 1: unpack that a little bit for me. How can you

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Speaker 1: feel that way when it also brought you the person

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Speaker 1: who was, for a time the love of your life

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Speaker 1: and two more of your kids. I guess I've never

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Speaker 1: stopped to think about that. I guess when I'm mad

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Speaker 1: about affairs, it's typically happening to someone that I care

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Speaker 1: very much about. And I don't care about the affair

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Speaker 1: that's going on out there where I'm not connected to

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Speaker 1: the person. That's their business. And you know, people have affairs,

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Speaker 1: but if it's happening to someone I love, it depends

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Speaker 1: on which side they're on. If they're having the affair,

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Speaker 1: I have empathy for them. If it's happening to them,

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Speaker 1: I'm curious. I had to know if Sarah's experience has

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Speaker 1: made her think at all differently about monogamy, if her

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Speaker 1: ideas about it have shifted after everything that she's been through.

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Speaker 1: So I have friends, and I think maybe younger people

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Speaker 1: are figuring this out in our defining relationships in different ways.

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Speaker 1: And I think They're basically saying, we're not going to

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Speaker 1: do what our parents did, which was lie and cheat

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Speaker 1: and revise stories and tell us lies for all of

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Speaker 1: our lives. We are going to do it our way.

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Speaker 1: We realize that we don't want to be monogamous, so

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Speaker 1: we are in an open relationship. And I do appreciate

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Speaker 1: the fact that polyamorous people and thruffles and open marriages

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Speaker 1: might bring some relief to the tension and pressure that

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Speaker 1: affairs brought to us. I know affairs are still going

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Speaker 1: on to this day, but I think millennials and gen

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Speaker 1: zers are figuring out a little bit better. Maybe. And Yet,

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Speaker 1: while polyamory and open marriages seem to be an answer

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Speaker 1: for some women, at least some women in a certain

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Speaker 1: generation with certain privileges, they could also come with the

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Speaker 1: same messages, the same drama, the same disappointments. There may

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Speaker 1: not be lying, but there are still people who are

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Speaker 1: going to get hurt and boundaries that need to be

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Speaker 1: constantly renegotiated every time they're crossed. But back to Sarah

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Speaker 1: for a second. Sarah did eventually get her happy ending,

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Speaker 1: it just wasn't the one that she expected. I was

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Speaker 1: never going to get married again, I'm obviously not very

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Speaker 1: good at marriage, and I'm okay with accepting that about myself.

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Speaker 1: But with my current husband, as I call him, he

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Speaker 1: hates to be called out, but I call him that.

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Speaker 1: We've been together twenty he's just the opposite of Keith,

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Speaker 1: and we have such such a wonderful relationship and such

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Speaker 1: a happy life. So it turns out that happy lives

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Speaker 1: can happen even if you hold on to that one

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Speaker 1: that you think this is it and I can't let

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Speaker 1: it go. If you just open up, I'm so much

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Speaker 1: better off. I mean, it's been wonderful. Affairs usually don't

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Speaker 1: go according to plan, but then neither does life. After

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Speaker 1: the break, we'll get back to the questions we sit

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Speaker 1: out to answer at the beginning of this podcast, are

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Speaker 1: more women having affairs? And if women are cheating more?

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Speaker 1: Why we are back? So after all of these conversations

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Speaker 1: and everything I've learned about women and affairs, I went

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Speaker 1: back to Susan Shapiro Barish, the author of the book

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Speaker 1: this podcast is based on. Susan has interviewed hundreds of

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Speaker 1: women who've had affairs over the past thirty years, and

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Speaker 1: she was able to tell me that through her research.

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Speaker 1: She can tell us that women absolutely are having more

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Speaker 1: affairs these days, and they're talking about it more so.

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Speaker 1: I do think there's an increase, and that includes affairs

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Speaker 1: of the mind and workplace affairs and just all sorts

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Speaker 1: of affairs. As I write in my book, you can

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Speaker 1: find these low vers at every turn. Accessibility to one's

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Speaker 1: lover has really evolved since I started this study, and

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Speaker 1: the access to a lover is so facil and so easy,

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Speaker 1: and women found that really encouraging. I mean, some women

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Speaker 1: described it as a really good reason to do it.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's so easy to go on Facebook. Women say, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm about ready, I'm disappointed enough, I'm disillusioned enough.

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Speaker 1: I've been at this a long time and I have

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Speaker 1: access and I would like to explore it. So that's

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Speaker 1: really something that's evolved. We called this show She Wants More.

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Speaker 1: We called it that because it's about women going after

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Speaker 1: what they want, breaking barriers, destroying stigmas, finding empowerment in

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Speaker 1: places that have been closed off to them by society

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Speaker 1: and culture for so long. At the end of the day,

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Speaker 1: affairs can empower you, and they can also leave a

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Speaker 1: mess in their wake. But there's still the fact that

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Speaker 1: women tend to be judged much more harshly for their

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Speaker 1: affairs than men do. That is why we needed to

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Speaker 1: hear these stories. We needed to hear these stories so

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Speaker 1: we can talk about it. We need to hear these

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Speaker 1: stories so we can figure out what we all want

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Speaker 1: and deserve. If we've learned anything making this podcast, there's

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Speaker 1: nothing wrong with wanting to be happy and fulfilled. There's

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Speaker 1: nothing wrong with wanting more. Did you take my coffee?

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Speaker 1: Didn't touch a coffee? Oh that's my husband Nick. He

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Speaker 1: always pops in on my podcasts and we've managed to

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Speaker 1: keep him off this one until right now. All right,

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Speaker 1: are you going to go have an affair? Now? No,

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Speaker 1: I'm tired, I'm stressed, I have a million jobs. I

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Speaker 1: mostly don't even want to have sex with you. Oh

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Speaker 1: isn't that precious? Oh? No idea. But also, look, I'm

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Speaker 1: pretty happy on the happiness and fulfilled human scale, I'm

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Speaker 1: like a nine. But there are a lot of women

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Speaker 1: out there who are not happy in their marriages, who

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Speaker 1: don't feel fulfilled, who don't have husbands, who take both

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Speaker 1: kids to school in the morning like you just did,

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Speaker 1: and who are not getting what they need. And I

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Speaker 1: talk to those women and I get that they deserve

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Speaker 1: something else outside of their marriage, and do I think

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Speaker 1: it's right? Not always, but it's not my place to judge.

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Speaker 1: And frankly, men have been having the affairs forever, and

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Speaker 1: I think it's just time that women get the same.

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Speaker 1: Goddamn grace. I have a lot of questions about that.

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Speaker 1: But so you're going to delete that Ashley Madison account?

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Speaker 1: Oh shit, totally forgot that was still out there. Wait

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Speaker 1: do you see mine? This has been She Wants More.

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Speaker 1: All eight episodes are now available for you to binge

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Speaker 1: and share with your friends. I hope it starts some

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Speaker 1: fun conversations. She Wants More was inspired by the book

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Speaker 1: A Passion for More by Susan Shapiro Bearish. It was

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Speaker 1: adapted for audio by executive producers Merrill Poster, Kara Pfeiffer,

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Speaker 1: and Susan Shapiro Bearish. She Wants More is hosted and

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Speaker 1: reported by me Joe Piazza. Jennifer Bassett is our lead

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Speaker 1: producer and story editor. Our sound design is by Jessica Crunchich.

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Speaker 1: Our theme was composed by Anna Stumpff and Hamilton Lighthouser.

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Speaker 1: Our Executive producers for iHeart are Ali Perry and Nikki Eatore.

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Speaker 1: She wants more as a production of iHeart podcasts. From

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Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.