Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the
Speaker 1: Thing from iHeart Radio, Bernie made Off, Elizabeth Holmes, Sam
Speaker 1: bankman Fried. It's easy to think that shocking levels of
Speaker 1: greed and corruption are simply nothing new in the world
Speaker 1: of white collar crime. But what is new is an
Speaker 1: accused chief executive evading prosecution by escaping to a foreign
Speaker 1: country in a box. That's the story of Carlos Gon,
Speaker 1: former CEO of both Nissan and Renault. Goen was arrested
Speaker 1: on the eve of a proposed merger between the two
Speaker 1: companies and charged with financial misconduct. He was first placed
Speaker 1: in solitary confinement and then house arrest, awaiting trial in Japan.
Speaker 1: That is until former Green Beret Michael Taylor and his
Speaker 1: son Peter shipped him off to Lebanon. The scandal ultimately
Speaker 1: resulted in the sentencing of the tailors and former Nissan
Speaker 1: executive Greg Kelly, while Gone walks free maintaining his innocence.
Speaker 1: Documentarian James Jones, director of the Bafter winning Chernobyl The
Speaker 1: Last Tapes, brought this story to life in the four
Speaker 1: part series Wanted The Escape of Carlos Gone on Apple TV.
Speaker 1: The series weaves questions surrounding a corporate takedown and the
Speaker 1: potential framing of Gone with the claims of CEO excess.
Speaker 1: I wanted to know what was the background of someone
Speaker 1: who went from CEO to fugitive in such a swift
Speaker 1: fall from grace So.
Speaker 2: He is a fascinating character. So he was born in Brazil,
Speaker 2: in a town in deepest Amazonian jungle, grew up mainly
Speaker 2: in Lebanon, went to university in France, but was always
Speaker 2: kind of viewed as an outsider. You know, he was
Speaker 2: never really accepted by the French establishment. He never played
Speaker 2: the game of sucking up to politicians, going to the
Speaker 2: right clubs, you know, having dinners with captains of industry.
Speaker 2: He kind of thought he was so brilliant he could
Speaker 2: play by his own rules, which ultimately left him without
Speaker 2: many allies when it all came crashing down. He worked
Speaker 2: for Michelin, the tire company, which is where he kind
Speaker 2: of showed that he had this skill for like cost
Speaker 2: cutting and turning companies around, and then was recruited by
Speaker 2: Renau and became known as lacost Killer, and you know,
Speaker 2: broke kind of French unions and sacked a lot of
Speaker 2: people shut down factories was like hugely controversial. And then
Speaker 2: when Reno took over Nissan, they thought, this is the
Speaker 2: guy to go to Japan and just like modernize this company,
Speaker 2: be ruthless, fire the people he needs to fire, and
Speaker 2: just like save this company from death.
Speaker 1: It's so strange to hear someone reference going into the
Speaker 1: Nissan culture to strip down and to make a Japanese
Speaker 1: car company leaner and better and more competitive, when you're
Speaker 1: always under the impression that the Japanese companies, particularly car companies,
Speaker 1: are the leanest and meanest of them all. When Gone
Speaker 1: goes over to Japan, does he find a lot of
Speaker 1: fat there?
Speaker 2: He does. There are practices that have just always been
Speaker 2: the same way. There were, you know, car companies owned
Speaker 2: shares in supermarkets, so all these kind of weird idiosyncrasies
Speaker 2: that the Japanese staff just saw as normal, you know,
Speaker 2: and it took an outsider like Going. And another interesting
Speaker 2: thing about Going is, I think you know, some people
Speaker 2: in Japan said to us, you know, he was viewed
Speaker 2: with great suspicion to begin with, but the fact that
Speaker 2: he was like culturally hard to place, you know, he
Speaker 2: wasn't French. He wasn't American. You know, he was willing
Speaker 2: to be the bad go Yeah, exactly. He didn't kind
Speaker 2: of stand on ceremony. He was absolutely ruthless, and on
Speaker 2: some level, perhaps because they were facing you know, extinction,
Speaker 2: they kind of went with it. And the results were
Speaker 2: so quick. He said, if I don't turn this round
Speaker 2: within three years, are quit. He turned it around within
Speaker 2: a year, and you know, it was just massive efficiencies
Speaker 2: straight off the bat. And you know, I think initially
Speaker 2: people thought he'd cooked the books, but it was just
Speaker 2: the same ruthlessness he had. And he's an interesting guy
Speaker 2: because he's obviously brilliant, but he's not someone like a
Speaker 2: Steve Jobs or Mark Zuckerberg who has one design or
Speaker 2: iconic brand or something that's associated with him. What he did,
Speaker 2: he just had this focus and this work ethic, and
Speaker 2: he inspired the people around him to commit to going
Speaker 2: further than they'd ever pushed before and sticking with him
Speaker 2: when he made hard decisions. And so what was so
Speaker 2: fascinating making the series is you see how all these
Speaker 2: things that made him brilliant as the success started to
Speaker 2: go to his head, he kind of lost them. You know,
Speaker 2: he wasn't working so hard he was spending a lot
Speaker 2: of time in the private jet go you know, throwing parties,
Speaker 2: SI going to Rio Carnival, you know, whereas his employees
Speaker 2: were still buying their own stationery and you know, desperately
Speaker 2: working and trying cutcasts wherever they could. And actually, like
Speaker 2: it was just a really old, kind of tragic story
Speaker 2: of success. It's like losing sight of what made you
Speaker 2: so great, and suddenly people around you thinking, you know,
Speaker 2: this emperor has no clothes.
Speaker 1: You became aware of this story and you decided you
Speaker 1: wanted to make this documentary after Gone went to Lebanon
Speaker 1: and after the Tailors went to prison.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I became aware of the story really when
Speaker 2: he escaped. You know, I remember the headlines around the world.
Speaker 2: The New York Post had this like enormost double bass case,
Speaker 2: and you know, the rumor was he was smuggled out
Speaker 2: in a music equipment box. But the film came about,
Speaker 2: I think it was the summer of twenty twenty one,
Speaker 2: and Apple wanted to do a series on the story.
Speaker 2: They'd approached this production company. At that point, we had
Speaker 2: no access to Gon. It was a couple of months
Speaker 2: before the Tailors were extradited to Japan, effectively swapping places
Speaker 2: with the man they'd helped escape. So we started with
Speaker 2: very little really, you know, we knew this was an
Speaker 2: amazing story. There was a kind of Hollywood heist element
Speaker 2: to it of one of the world's most famous business
Speaker 2: people being smuggled out of an island, a very kind
Speaker 2: of closely monitored country, smuggled inside a music box on
Speaker 2: a private jet.
Speaker 1: I want to be clear for our audience. When you
Speaker 1: say music box, you mean the cases that they stowed
Speaker 1: musical equipment.
Speaker 2: In, right, exactly. Yeah, And there was like a guitar
Speaker 2: case on top.
Speaker 1: Gone was a bit of a band and there was
Speaker 1: a little guy. So that made getting him out of
Speaker 1: the country slightly easier than it would have been if
Speaker 1: he was six foot five or somethingn't it. So you
Speaker 1: became aware of the story after.
Speaker 2: The escape, yeah, exactly. The name was familiar. You know,
Speaker 2: he was this kind of superstar in the car industry.
Speaker 2: But you know, I'm a journalist a filmmaker, but I
Speaker 2: don't follow the car industry closely. I mean I remember,
Speaker 2: you know, there was shock. You know, in Japan, he
Speaker 2: was like a demigod. You know, there were like manga,
Speaker 2: comic books about his life. He was voted you know,
Speaker 2: the man women would most like to have children with,
Speaker 2: you know, and he's not a conventionally handsome guy. So
Speaker 2: you know, he had this aura and this incredible reputation
Speaker 2: and then overnight suddenly all that just came crashing down.
Speaker 1: I watched the film and I look at a timeline
Speaker 1: and when you likely got involved. So when you see
Speaker 1: the party, he goes to the Versai at a restaurant
Speaker 1: coll Verasai and he has this party. And yet you
Speaker 1: have a lot of footage from that party. How did
Speaker 1: he film the party?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so the Ghones had organized the Marie Antoinette themed
Speaker 2: party at Versailles. And like, if you know your history,
Speaker 2: Marie Antoinette is you know, the symbol. You know, her
Speaker 2: famous quote is let the meat cakes. She's the symbol
Speaker 2: of kind of extreme inequality. And you know, within France,
Speaker 2: people getting their come up. And so like perhaps an
Speaker 2: unwise like party theme for a man who's using his coma.
Speaker 2: He is there a bit of hooprice, you could say,
Speaker 2: And yeah, the party organizes higher videographer to shoot all
Speaker 2: these people dressed in kind of Marie Antoinette themed you know,
Speaker 2: gobs and it's kind of completely revolutionary France. Yeah, I
Speaker 2: mean it stirs up a revolutionary in all of us,
Speaker 2: I think. See.
Speaker 1: So you get some wonderful footage of things like that,
Speaker 1: the party, you're sit downs with Gone and his wife,
Speaker 1: but Going in particular, that shot I'm assuming in Lebanon
Speaker 1: after the fact, when he's when he's once he's escaped
Speaker 1: to Lebanon exactly, and Gone strikes me as it seemed
Speaker 1: like one of those situations where James Jones could have
Speaker 1: left the room for several hours and Gone could have
Speaker 1: spoken into the camera ceaselessly, you know, decrying his innocence
Speaker 1: about what he seems like somebody who he could go
Speaker 1: on and on forever to maintain his innocence. He's almost
Speaker 1: never going to be satisfied.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, he feels wronged. You know. When I asked him,
Speaker 2: do you feel sorry for the victims in this story?
Speaker 2: You know there's been a huge amount of collateral damage,
Speaker 2: lives ruined by this whole saga, and he kind of
Speaker 2: there's one moment he looked blankly at me and said,
Speaker 2: if there's a victim here, it's me. You know, he
Speaker 2: can't see beyond that. He feels there was a conspiracy
Speaker 2: in Japan to take him down, and everything flowed from that.
Speaker 1: But at the same time your documentary and I could
Speaker 1: be wrong, maybe this is just what I gleaned from it.
Speaker 1: There's a whiff of the idea, or even just a
Speaker 1: slight whiff of the idea that that's certainly possible. Meaning
Speaker 1: you walk away from watching your program with the idea
Speaker 1: that the political life and the policies that are enforced
Speaker 1: by the Japanese government are very often controlled by business itself.
Speaker 1: Nissan isn't just some company. Nissan, like Sony, is a
Speaker 1: huge company with tentacles into every corner of the world
Speaker 1: and one of the major companies with a Japanese you know, headquarters.
Speaker 1: And to say that people want to derail the Renau
Speaker 1: Nissan merger is not a foolish idea, correct, absolutely.
Speaker 2: I mean, the interesting thing about this series, in this
Speaker 2: whole story, is that it's not a black and white
Speaker 2: story of kind of good versus evil. There are lots
Speaker 2: of kind of contradictory truths, and like, there's no doubt
Speaker 2: in my mind that there was a conspiracy to take
Speaker 2: down Carlos Gon.
Speaker 1: You know, you believe there.
Speaker 2: Was absolutely at first, and so Nissan is like, as
Speaker 2: you say, one of the crown jewels in Japanese industry.
Speaker 2: The thought of that being you know, subsumed by a
Speaker 2: French company Reno was just an insult to Japanese pride,
Speaker 2: and so they wanted and they realized that Carlos Gon,
Speaker 2: having led them to huge success, saved them from extinction,
Speaker 2: was now thinking about pulling off this merger, partly because
Speaker 2: he would do quite well out of it. How was
Speaker 2: Reno viewed as a car company, I think by the
Speaker 2: Japanese as you know, a kind of poor relation. You know,
Speaker 2: they didn't admire French kind of mechanics design. They bought
Speaker 2: a huge stake in Nisan at a time when Nissan
Speaker 2: was about to go bust, so it was a kind
Speaker 2: of marriage or convenience. But then the idea that they
Speaker 2: would be fully subsumed by a full alliance was just
Speaker 2: anatoma to them. So there's no doubt in my mind
Speaker 2: that Nissan and the Japanese justice system decided to take
Speaker 2: Carlos going down.
Speaker 1: Gone eventually is excoriated for paying himself huge amounts of money,
Speaker 1: and the Japanese were like, listen, no one deserves to
Speaker 1: be paid that amount of money when you're producing cars.
Speaker 1: I mean, no one at the head of a company,
Speaker 1: no matter how successful it is, should be paid this
Speaker 1: amount of money. Is that correct?
Speaker 2: That's right? And I think it's partly a cultural thing,
Speaker 2: you know. I think in France extreme wealth is viewed
Speaker 2: with great suspicion. Likewise, in Japan, where you're kind of
Speaker 2: you know, these companies are kind of hierarchical. You work
Speaker 2: there for your whole lifetime and incrementally increase your salary.
Speaker 2: Carlos Gon comes some more of a kind of American
Speaker 2: business background, where the CEO is rewarded, you know, proportionately
Speaker 2: with the company's profits. So he thought he was worth,
Speaker 2: you know, five times what he was getting. He saw
Speaker 2: himself on a level with Steve Jobs, Mark Zuckerberg, all
Speaker 2: these kind of people. Carlos Gon's problem is that it
Speaker 2: wasn't Carlos Gon inc. He was working for two companies
Speaker 2: that had shareholders. He was an employee of these two companies,
Speaker 2: whereas in his mind he became bigger than these companies
Speaker 2: and deserved whatever he wanted to take.
Speaker 1: Now, when you think that Gon was framed, you think
Speaker 1: that he was set up in order again to derail
Speaker 1: the merger, and the Japanese powers that be wanted to
Speaker 1: hobble him, if you will. How much was he being
Speaker 1: paid in those final years, and how much was he
Speaker 1: accused of stealing from the company.
Speaker 2: So the interesting thing is that he kind of operated
Speaker 2: in this gray area where he was paid by both
Speaker 2: companies and he could kind of operate the way he
Speaker 2: wanted because there wasn't the scrutiny. He'd surrounded himself with
Speaker 2: yes men at both companies. He spent a lot of
Speaker 2: his time, increasingly on a private jet, often flying to
Speaker 2: places not on business but to kind of enjoy the
Speaker 2: trappings of his success. But what's interesting is that even
Speaker 2: though it was a conspiracy at first, they almost then
Speaker 2: stumbled across evidence of real corruption, you know, so almost
Speaker 2: by mistake, they found on the laptop.
Speaker 1: On the Nissan side of the Renna side.
Speaker 2: So the Nissan lawyers basically went and searched his former
Speaker 2: lawyer's office in Beirut, discovered a laptop which had a
Speaker 2: hard drive with all these flows of money which he'd
Speaker 2: kept secret from Nissan, basically to and from Middle Eastern businessmen,
Speaker 2: and he was writing checks from Nissan and Reno and
Speaker 2: then through very convoluted means, through shell companies and so on,
Speaker 2: he was receiving tens of millions of dollars back into
Speaker 2: his pocket and he kept that secret. And when we
Speaker 2: put it to him, he doesn't really have a convincing
Speaker 2: answer for why, you know, he would be writing these
Speaker 2: checks and receiving money and keeping it secret from his employees.
Speaker 2: So that is why he's now wanted not only in
Speaker 2: Japan from where he escaped, but the French now want
Speaker 2: to put him on trial for corruption.
Speaker 1: So I guess what's frustrating and confusing for me is
Speaker 1: that on one hand people maintained that the Japanese government
Speaker 1: set him up. On the other hand, he stole from
Speaker 1: both companies. Which is it right?
Speaker 2: Well, that's the thing, you know, we pose the question
Speaker 2: in film four. The title is victim or villain, and
Speaker 2: it doesn't need necessarily need to be either or you know,
Speaker 2: he can be a victim of a conspiracy who suffered greatly,
Speaker 2: was in solitary confinement, interrogated without a lawyer. You know,
Speaker 2: they call the Japanese justice system the hostage justice system
Speaker 2: because you're effectively kept hostage until you confess. So there's
Speaker 2: no doubt that he and his family were victims at
Speaker 2: that point. The problem for him is that they did
Speaker 2: then stumble across real corruption and the case just became
Speaker 2: you know, these allegations are much much more serious, and
Speaker 2: so it's very hard for him to dismiss the label
Speaker 2: of villain unless he's willing to go and stand trial
Speaker 2: in France, which he's not. You know, right now, he's
Speaker 2: a fugitive in Lebanon, and as far as I can see,
Speaker 2: that's where he's going to spend the rest of his life.
Speaker 1: Director James Jones. If you enjoy conversations with documentary directors
Speaker 1: uncovering corporate corruption, check out my episode with Alex Gibney,
Speaker 1: director of Enron, The Smartest Guys in the Room.
Speaker 3: The ghosts of all my films tend to follow me,
Speaker 3: and I often keep in touch with sources and interview subjects,
Speaker 3: and in odd ways they keep coming back to films
Speaker 3: I make henceforth, So they kind of reverberate a little
Speaker 3: bit like that moment in Ghostbusters. So they say, don't
Speaker 3: cross the streams. Well, my streams are constantly getting crossed.
Speaker 3: It seems like characters from one film are intruding into another.
Speaker 1: To hear more of my conversation with Alex Gibney, go
Speaker 1: to Here's the Thing dot org. After the break, James
Speaker 1: Jones shares the intricacies of how Carlos gon was smuggled
Speaker 1: out of Japan in a box. I'm Alec Baldwin and
Speaker 1: you're listening to Here's the Thing. Former automobile executive. Carlos
Speaker 1: Goon is a fugitive currently living the life of a
Speaker 1: freeman in Lebanon. I was curious to learn that, while
Speaker 1: the Japanese authorities couldn't get their hands on going due
Speaker 1: to Lebanon's extradition laws, was the money he allegedly laundered recoverable.
Speaker 2: That's a good question. I mean, I think some of
Speaker 2: his assets in France were frozen. I think some of
Speaker 2: his assets in the States as well. But you know,
Speaker 2: I think most of that money that ended up in
Speaker 2: his pocket was in shell companies arranged from Lebanon, you know,
Speaker 2: either within Lebanon itself or it in kind of tax
Speaker 2: havens around the world. So I think Carlos Gohn is
Speaker 2: still living a pretty comfortable life. He's living in the
Speaker 2: mansion paid for by Nissan. He's got his super yacht
Speaker 2: paid for by the you know, the money from the
Speaker 2: Middle East and businessman. So I think the thing that
Speaker 2: kills him is that his legacy has gone. You know,
Speaker 2: his reputation will never recover. He's a fugitive. We all
Speaker 2: know him now as a man who escaped in a box,
Speaker 2: and that kills him because he would have gone down
Speaker 2: in you know, the Automotive Hall of Fame as one
Speaker 2: of the genius businessmen of the twenty first century.
Speaker 1: So he decides to escape. Now the tailors, I want
Speaker 1: you to describe how they come together. I doubt the
Speaker 1: tailors have a website called We'll put you in a
Speaker 1: Box smuggle you to Lebanon dot com. How did that
Speaker 1: relationship get forged?
Speaker 2: So, Mike Taylor is a former Green Beret. He'd you know,
Speaker 2: served around the world, and then after leaving the military,
Speaker 2: he'd actually spent some time in Lebanon during the Civil War.
Speaker 2: There had met his wife, who is Lebanese, who is
Speaker 2: a kind of distant cousin of Carlos Gohan's wife. So
Speaker 2: I think Carlos Gohan's wife kind of started putting the
Speaker 2: word out in Lebanon saying, you know, Carlos is going
Speaker 2: to die in a Japanese prison. He's in solitary confinement.
Speaker 2: It's freezing cold. You know, he's not going to live
Speaker 2: much longer. I'm never going to properly see him again.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: Beirut is like a big village. Everyone knows everyone. And
Speaker 2: someone said, there's this guy, Mike Taylor, and he's got
Speaker 2: quite a reputation. He'd helped journalists escape from the Taliban.
Speaker 2: He had a specialty in kids who are abducted by
Speaker 2: one parent. He'd go in and get the kid back
Speaker 2: for the parent who paid him to do it. And
Speaker 2: so he just had this like amazing reputation. He met
Speaker 2: Carlos Gohan's wife in Beirut. They talked about a possible plan.
Speaker 2: But you know, this is not getting someone out of
Speaker 2: Egypt or something like that. This is Japan. It's an island.
Speaker 2: The CCTV everywhere going is under house arrest. This is like,
Speaker 2: you know, for someone like Mike Taylor, this is you know,
Speaker 2: if you're a mountain climber, it's like climbing Everest or whatever.
Speaker 2: This is just like the ultimate challenge.
Speaker 1: Taylor is what we used to call a soldier of fortune,
Speaker 1: right exactly. Yeah, this is a great challenge for him.
Speaker 2: It's a great challenge, and you know, I'm sure he
Speaker 2: realizes that at some point it could be quite lucrative.
Speaker 2: But I think just and also I think on a
Speaker 2: personal level, he met Carlos Gohan's wife and felt great sympathy,
Speaker 2: felt like there was an injustice, thought the Japanese system
Speaker 2: was was unfair and cruel, and so he started formulating
Speaker 2: this plan. And you know, they could have gone by boat,
Speaker 2: but it was winter, the sea could be choppy, and
Speaker 2: he thought, let's get him in a Let's get him
Speaker 2: in a box, take him on a private jet, you know,
Speaker 2: small airport, not in Tokyo, you know, the secure it
Speaker 2: is more lax on private jets. He did a test
Speaker 2: and saw that they check the luggage going into into Japan,
Speaker 2: but not coming out. He made sure the box was
Speaker 2: too big to fit through the X rays. So he
Speaker 2: was like, you know, it's a military operation, planning every
Speaker 2: single detail because he was prepared. He was prepared.
Speaker 1: But for me, when I'm curious about us who contacted Taylor,
Speaker 1: who's working with Gone, that access as tailor.
Speaker 2: So that I mean, basically, because Carlos Gone was pretty
Speaker 2: clear that his phone was tapped. And you know he
Speaker 2: could tell that because one day he called a newspaper
Speaker 2: journalist to say, they're a guy standing outside my house
Speaker 2: and we have evidence that Nissan did use spies to
Speaker 2: follow him and other people they were kind of going after.
Speaker 2: And the day after he called the journalist, the spies
Speaker 2: didn't come to stand outside his house. So he thought, okay,
Speaker 2: I know they tapped my phone. So he had to
Speaker 2: get a special burner phone, but was essentially communicating with
Speaker 2: his wife, who was communicating with Mike Taylor. So his
Speaker 2: wife was in Lebanon at this time. So she is
Speaker 2: a fascinating character because she's his second wife. She's kind
Speaker 2: of beautiful, blonde, charismatic, incredibly warm, and she was kind
Speaker 2: of associated with Gohn's transformation from this kind of nerdy
Speaker 2: mister Bean character, Yes, to someone who loved lavish parties.
Speaker 1: Yes, dressed differently.
Speaker 2: Dress differently, had his hair, hair implant, you know, laser
Speaker 2: eye surgery, sharp suits, and you know, suddenly was on
Speaker 2: the red carpet at Cairn. You know, this was like
Speaker 2: a totally unknown world. This is red carpet going exactly.
Speaker 2: So she was seen, I mean a Bimbo is too strong,
Speaker 2: but certainly someone who enjoyed the finer things in life.
Speaker 2: But what you saw over the course of this whole
Speaker 2: saga is that she, first of all, when he was
Speaker 2: locked up, she went out on the media and kind
Speaker 2: of almost single handedly changed the world's perception of the
Speaker 2: Japanese justice system to the point where even a UN
Speaker 2: body issued a report about hostage justice. You know, the
Speaker 2: terrible violations of human rights. Now, you might say Carlos
Speaker 2: Gohn is an unlikely champion of human rights, but that's
Speaker 2: what his wife did. And then she also played this
Speaker 2: kind of amazing strategic role in pulling off the escape,
Speaker 2: which he doesn't want to talk about, clearly for legal reasons,
Speaker 2: but you know, it's quite clear that she was pulling
Speaker 2: the strings. But she now within Lebanon is kind of
Speaker 2: celebrated as this power behind the throne who pulled off
Speaker 2: this amazing plot. Obviously, Goan was the man who was
Speaker 2: brave enough to actually lie down inside this box in
Speaker 2: the dark and just pray that he made it to Lebanon.
Speaker 2: But I think, you know, I think that's interesting about
Speaker 2: his own psychology, right, I mean, he's a man who
Speaker 2: is willing to take these incredibly high pressure decisions, and
Speaker 2: he can seem almost quite robotic sometimes. So he just
Speaker 2: weighed up the kind of cost benefit and the risk
Speaker 2: of getting in that box and risking everything, and he
Speaker 2: thought it's worth it, because otherwise, you know, I die
Speaker 2: in prison in Japan.
Speaker 1: So the Tailors are arrested. There is an extradition treaty
Speaker 1: and some kind of legal arrangements between the United States
Speaker 1: government and the Japanese government, and the Tailors are arrested
Speaker 1: in the US first correct, right at the behest of
Speaker 1: the Japanese government. Absolutely yeah, And the Tailors make no
Speaker 1: attempt to flee that prosecution. No.
Speaker 2: I mean, the Tailors could have laid low in Lebanon
Speaker 2: like Carlos Gown and you know, enjoyed the fruits of
Speaker 2: their amazingly successful escape. But they wanted to go back
Speaker 2: to the States. They didn't want to hide away. I
Speaker 2: think deep down they thought it wasn't such a serious crime,
Speaker 2: and you know, the States wouldn't give up their own citizens,
Speaker 2: let alone a kind of war hero. But they underestimated
Speaker 2: how mad the Japanese were. I think, you know, this
Speaker 2: was a national humiliation to lose its most famous prisoner
Speaker 2: who pops up in Lebanon and it gives a press conference,
Speaker 2: you know, slamming the Japanese's just the system. So I
Speaker 2: think they were so determined to get the Taylor's back
Speaker 2: because they knew they'd never get Carlos gone.
Speaker 1: Director James Jones. If you're enjoying this conversation, tell a
Speaker 1: friend and be sure to follow Here's the Thing on
Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1: When we come back, James Jones shares what it was
Speaker 1: like interviewing Carlos Gon while Gon was on the lamb
Speaker 1: from the Law. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to
Speaker 1: Here's the Thing. Director James Jones got access to all
Speaker 1: of the major players in the Carlos Gon saga, including
Speaker 1: those who were tried by the Japanese government for their involvement.
Speaker 1: After a three year battle. Former Nissan executive Greg Kelly
Speaker 1: received a six month suspended sentence, but Michael Taylor and
Speaker 1: his son Peter ultimately served time in a Japanese prison.
Speaker 2: So they served nearly two years. And it was brutal, correct,
Speaker 2: it was brutal. I mean it was like, you know,
Speaker 2: solitary confinement, freezing cold cells. Mike Taylor is not a
Speaker 2: young man.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: He came out of prison, you know, incredibly gaunt and sick.
Speaker 2: He looked about thirty years older than he really is.
Speaker 2: They told us these stories that they'd be forced to
Speaker 2: they'd be given a big piece of cardboard and they'd
Speaker 2: have to rip it into smaller and smaller pieces. Yes,
Speaker 2: and I think the prison system would say that was entertainment,
Speaker 2: that was to you know, stop them being bored. But
Speaker 2: you know, Mike Taylor said that his fingers were like painful,
Speaker 2: and it was like, you know, sounds to me more
Speaker 2: like torture rather than entertainment. So they certainly had an
Speaker 2: even harder time than Carlos going in prison. And you know,
Speaker 2: I think for Mike Taylor, the thing that was even
Speaker 2: more painful than the kind of physical discomfort and hardship
Speaker 2: was that he'd involved his son. And his son is
Speaker 2: not a kind of hardened war veteran. He's a you know,
Speaker 2: young guy in his twenties who probably completely adores his dad,
Speaker 2: has always wanted to emulate his dad. So the chance
Speaker 2: to be part, even a small part of his most
Speaker 2: outlandish plot was probably just too exciting to turn down.
Speaker 2: But then no one would have ever thought that he'd
Speaker 2: end up spending you know, years in a Japanese prison
Speaker 2: as well.
Speaker 1: And in the program Gone, I believe in one of
Speaker 1: your sitdowns with him, he's quoted as saying something along
Speaker 1: the lines of everybody knew the risks they were taking, yeah,
Speaker 1: and so Gone does not have a lot of sympathy
Speaker 1: or empathy for the tailors.
Speaker 2: I was genuinely surprised how little he he had.
Speaker 1: Big insight into Gone. That comment real incided to go.
Speaker 1: Like I said, Going's about Gone totally, and he uses
Speaker 1: people to get what he wants and to move along
Speaker 1: the game board as he desires. And then he doesn't
Speaker 1: really when he doesn't have many use for you anymore,
Speaker 1: it seems like he just forgets about you. One thing
Speaker 1: that I was confused about was what was the fee
Speaker 1: that the tailors were told they would be paid for
Speaker 1: the escape just the escape itself.
Speaker 2: So they were given expenses ahead of the escape, which
Speaker 2: was I think one point three million dollars, which was
Speaker 2: just to cover planes, private planes, you know, a reqi,
Speaker 2: the pilots or you know all those. But you know,
Speaker 2: I'm probably a bit for yourself as well. But Mike
Speaker 2: had always said, after the fact, we will we'll talk money.
Speaker 2: You know, the priority is getting you out after we
Speaker 2: do it. And I think they did come to an
Speaker 2: arrangement afterwards for some money in the in the low millions.
Speaker 2: But then Mike and his son spent years in Japanese
Speaker 2: prison and say they've got kind of a million dollars
Speaker 2: of legal fees, which Goan had assured them he would pay,
Speaker 2: and to date has he paid. He's paid them a
Speaker 2: tiny fraction of that.
Speaker 1: Is it difficult for them to take Goan's money? Is
Speaker 1: that the legal issue?
Speaker 2: Well, they can't touch him. I think. You know, Mike
Speaker 2: has gone to Lebanon to meet Goan and kind of
Speaker 2: appeal to his decency exactly. You know, it's like I
Speaker 2: saved your life, unique brand of decency when Goane got
Speaker 2: out of the box on the private jet and he
Speaker 2: said to Mike Taylor, you know you saved my life,
Speaker 2: and he really did. Like if it wasn't for Mike Taylor,
Speaker 2: Carlos Gohen would still be in a Japanese prison and
Speaker 2: Mike Taylor would have just been living a free man
Speaker 2: in Massachusetts.
Speaker 1: Where is Taylor.
Speaker 2: Now he's back home in Massachusetts and where is his son?
Speaker 2: His son is in Dubai kind of starting out various businesses.
Speaker 1: I think is Taylor willing to talk about what happened
Speaker 1: or is he better off not talking about what happened.
Speaker 1: I mean, he served his time.
Speaker 2: He served his time. You know, he gave us his
Speaker 2: first interview and Peter Taylor, and you know, he kind
Speaker 2: of trusted we were doing it right. He didn't want
Speaker 2: it just to be the Carlos Gohon show as well.
Speaker 2: But I think he knows now because he has spoken
Speaker 2: out about feeling let down by Gone and you know,
Speaker 2: the legal fees not being paid. I think he recognizes
Speaker 2: that that relationship is over. He's not going to receive
Speaker 2: a pennymore.
Speaker 1: Right now, when you're sitting down and doing the one
Speaker 1: on ones with Gone, you did them in Lebanon. Correct? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm assuming you did hours and hours of interviews with him,
Speaker 1: correct or limited?
Speaker 2: He's he's an impatient guy. But as long as you're
Speaker 2: on top topics he likes talking about. He'll give you
Speaker 2: all day. It's when you start asking the tough questions
Speaker 2: he suddenly starts looking at his watch.
Speaker 1: You know, ah, did you ask the tough questions and
Speaker 1: we did.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, so we asked about the omar and allegations.
Speaker 2: We also asked, you know, his his dad was a
Speaker 2: convicted murderer priest.
Speaker 1: That's amazing part of the story.
Speaker 2: And you know, as his wife said, you know, Gon
Speaker 2: basically just shut down that whole topic. You know, he
Speaker 2: was a kid, his father was accused of killing a priest,
Speaker 2: was sentenced death. Goan was kind of six years old.
Speaker 2: Must have been incredibly traumatic and formative. But it's a secret.
Speaker 2: You know, no one talks about it. It's kind of
Speaker 2: known about Lebanon, but had never been reported. Gone had
Speaker 2: always refused to talk about it. But what was so
Speaker 2: interesting is that his wife, Carol said, his whole life
Speaker 2: has been trying to prove to his dad that he's
Speaker 2: not his dad. And then you think, my god, he's
Speaker 2: tried to prove that he's not a criminal like his dad,
Speaker 2: but he's ended up breaking the law. You know, now
Speaker 2: a fugitive in Lebanon. It's just like kind of come
Speaker 2: full circle. So I thought that was just so revealing
Speaker 2: of his mentality and drive.
Speaker 1: When you should something like this, it's presumed that there's
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff that you leave out that you
Speaker 1: might have wished you had left in.
Speaker 2: Was that the case, I think almost everything is in there.
Speaker 2: There were a few people who knew Gone very well,
Speaker 2: who would only speak to us on background, but who
Speaker 2: gave us the idea of him as a narcissist, and
Speaker 2: you know, helped us understand and his psychology to kind
Speaker 2: of join the dots of the facts we had. For instance,
Speaker 2: we had the contents of his mobile phone when he
Speaker 2: was arrested and he was like totting up his personal wealth,
Speaker 2: and there was the final note was and if I
Speaker 2: pull off this merger, I'll become a billionaire, and so like,
Speaker 2: we had insights like that into him. But there are
Speaker 2: a few people who had been very close to him
Speaker 2: for a number of years that we would have liked
Speaker 2: to go on camera. But in terms of the key players,
Speaker 2: like having Gone and his wife and then the tailors,
Speaker 2: those are the key players who who we just needed
Speaker 2: to have to make it feel like we were telling
Speaker 2: the full story.
Speaker 1: Were you commissioned to do this? Did Apple commission you?
Speaker 2: Or this was your pro Apple commissioned it? Yet?
Speaker 1: God, and if we go down your filmography Dispatches, Panorama,
Speaker 1: This World, the Frontline episodes, Children of Guys are more
Speaker 1: than a few of them. Commissions or you like commissions.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a mixture. I mean the last film I
Speaker 2: did before this was about Chernobyl, and that was my
Speaker 2: idea that we then took to Sky and HBO. I'm
Speaker 2: working on a Russia film now that's independently funded that
Speaker 2: we will hope to premier at film festivals and then,
Speaker 2: And that's been actually great working in a different way,
Speaker 2: so you're not necessarily answering straight to a broadcast or streamer.
Speaker 2: I think streamers are more prescriptive probably than traditional broadcasters.
Speaker 2: I think I've been lucky so like Chernobyl, it was
Speaker 2: a very clear concept of like telling the story entirely
Speaker 2: through archive, a lot of it unseen, and you know,
Speaker 2: I think you just try and make sure that you
Speaker 2: accept the commission from people who buy into that vision.
Speaker 2: So I've never had a situation where someone has wanted
Speaker 2: the film to be something completely different.
Speaker 1: So pretty much get that sorted at upfront.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: You guys both want the same thing exactly, So I've
Speaker 1: never felt arguments about what stays in a way get
Speaker 1: to cut out.
Speaker 2: It'll be yeah, you'd get minor notes. But I think
Speaker 2: like maybe, unlike with a movie where you have like
Speaker 2: studio execs, you know, demanding major changes, I think from
Speaker 2: the whole a doc director, at least in my experience,
Speaker 2: you feel like it's always your own and you might
Speaker 2: have to compromise on a couple of things, but it's
Speaker 2: your vision that they're buying into. But maybe I've just
Speaker 2: been lucky.
Speaker 1: Now does go and roam the streets of Lebanon, of
Speaker 1: be rude or where have you? Freely? Does he have
Speaker 1: to mask himself? Because the guy that gets put in
Speaker 1: a box in Japan and sent to Lebanon could justice
Speaker 1: easily be kidnapped, put it in a box and shipped
Speaker 1: to Japan and go you know, round trip if you will.
Speaker 2: I mean, and we know who might put him in
Speaker 2: the box and take him back. Right there's a guy
Speaker 2: who's got a who's probably seeking revenge right now. But yeah,
Speaker 2: he drives around with heavy security. You know, he has
Speaker 2: armed guards. He's very careful about the way he travels,
Speaker 2: and you know Lebanon, it's it's not just about sent
Speaker 2: back to Japan, but Lebanon is a very unstable place.
Speaker 2: So although it's you know, beautiful country, great food, good beaches.
Speaker 2: You know, you can walk in the mountains. You know,
Speaker 2: Hezbolau is one of the largest parties, and that you know,
Speaker 2: it feels like it's constantly on the brink of economic collapse,
Speaker 2: civil war. So he's trapped in a place that for
Speaker 2: a man who's accustomed to flying the world and private
Speaker 2: jets and living, you know, the life of ultimate freedom,
Speaker 2: he's constrained. He's constrained and you know, who knows what
Speaker 2: Lebanon will look like in five years.
Speaker 1: Where's Kelly? Now?
Speaker 2: Kelly's back home in Nashville. So Kelly was his kind
Speaker 2: of right hand man, the man who was kind of
Speaker 2: tasked with keeping going at the company. As he said,
Speaker 2: going was like the Michael Jordan of the car industry,
Speaker 2: and it was my job to make sure he didn't
Speaker 2: go anywhere.
Speaker 1: His story in the show is painful because you really
Speaker 1: see him suffer. Right, you know, the tailors committed a crime.
Speaker 1: The tailors, although their hearts were in the right place,
Speaker 1: they were immersed there is they took money. They committed
Speaker 1: a crime. Gone is probably guilty of some of what
Speaker 1: they say. He is at least, oh, they shoulday at
Speaker 1: least it appears that way, at least a layman would
Speaker 1: say that. But Kelly seems like the one person of
Speaker 1: the project was purely innocent. Yeah, he didn't deserve any
Speaker 1: of what happened to him.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And they tricked him into coming over to Japan
Speaker 2: knowing that he needed back surgery. He was in agony,
Speaker 2: so he had this incredibly long flight. They assumed that
Speaker 2: he would just be desperate to go home. When they
Speaker 2: confronted him with these charges, he'd sign whatever they wanted
Speaker 2: and he'd throw going under the bus.
Speaker 1: I can't believe he got on the plane. I know,
Speaker 1: why did he go? Who's his lawyer? I know?
Speaker 2: I know, well there is there is one person in
Speaker 2: particular who was like Greg Kelly's protege, who is the
Speaker 2: one who called him back, who he trusted mistakenly, and
Speaker 2: you know they underestimated Greg Kelly. He was just like, well,
Speaker 2: these charges aren't true. I can't possibly sign this, And
Speaker 2: he ended up spending three years of his life stuck
Speaker 2: in Japan.
Speaker 1: What are you working on now?
Speaker 2: So it's a film about Russian assassination, which is we're
Speaker 2: submitting to festivals next year.
Speaker 1: But you finished.
Speaker 2: We're getting close to the end, but it feels like we're.
Speaker 1: No.
Speaker 2: So we're gonna hopefully premiere a festival early next year
Speaker 2: and then take it from there.
Speaker 1: So when this is over, when you're done with Carlos, goone,
Speaker 1: guys getting stuffed in boxes, Russian assassinations. I'm assuming the
Speaker 1: project you're doing next is something like the History of Candy.
Speaker 2: That would be lovely.
Speaker 1: My thanks to documentary filmmaker James Jones. This episode was
Speaker 1: recorded at CDM Studios in New York City. We're produced
Speaker 1: by Kathleen Russo, Zach MacNeice, and Maureen Hobin. Our engineer
Speaker 1: is Frank Imperial. Our social media manager is Daniel Gingrich.
Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing is brought to you
Speaker 1: by iHeart Radio b