1
00:00:02,440 --> 00:00:05,440
Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the

2
00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:11,360
Speaker 1: Thing from iHeart Radio, Bernie made Off, Elizabeth Holmes, Sam

3
00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:14,840
Speaker 1: bankman Fried. It's easy to think that shocking levels of

4
00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:18,280
Speaker 1: greed and corruption are simply nothing new in the world

5
00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:22,000
Speaker 1: of white collar crime. But what is new is an

6
00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:26,880
Speaker 1: accused chief executive evading prosecution by escaping to a foreign

7
00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:31,280
Speaker 1: country in a box. That's the story of Carlos Gon,

8
00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:37,159
Speaker 1: former CEO of both Nissan and Renault. Goen was arrested

9
00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:40,200
Speaker 1: on the eve of a proposed merger between the two

10
00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:44,519
Speaker 1: companies and charged with financial misconduct. He was first placed

11
00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:49,479
Speaker 1: in solitary confinement and then house arrest, awaiting trial in Japan.

12
00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:53,519
Speaker 1: That is until former Green Beret Michael Taylor and his

13
00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:58,640
Speaker 1: son Peter shipped him off to Lebanon. The scandal ultimately

14
00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:02,040
Speaker 1: resulted in the sentencing of the tailors and former Nissan

15
00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:06,840
Speaker 1: executive Greg Kelly, while Gone walks free maintaining his innocence.

16
00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:12,520
Speaker 1: Documentarian James Jones, director of the Bafter winning Chernobyl The

17
00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:15,680
Speaker 1: Last Tapes, brought this story to life in the four

18
00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:20,399
Speaker 1: part series Wanted The Escape of Carlos Gone on Apple TV.

19
00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:25,280
Speaker 1: The series weaves questions surrounding a corporate takedown and the

20
00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:29,640
Speaker 1: potential framing of Gone with the claims of CEO excess.

21
00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:32,520
Speaker 1: I wanted to know what was the background of someone

22
00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:36,000
Speaker 1: who went from CEO to fugitive in such a swift

23
00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:38,319
Speaker 1: fall from grace So.

24
00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:43,520
Speaker 2: He is a fascinating character. So he was born in Brazil,

25
00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:48,920
Speaker 2: in a town in deepest Amazonian jungle, grew up mainly

26
00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:52,720
Speaker 2: in Lebanon, went to university in France, but was always

27
00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:54,840
Speaker 2: kind of viewed as an outsider. You know, he was

28
00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:58,360
Speaker 2: never really accepted by the French establishment. He never played

29
00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:00,800
Speaker 2: the game of sucking up to politicians, going to the

30
00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:04,160
Speaker 2: right clubs, you know, having dinners with captains of industry.

31
00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:07,440
Speaker 2: He kind of thought he was so brilliant he could

32
00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:10,320
Speaker 2: play by his own rules, which ultimately left him without

33
00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:13,320
Speaker 2: many allies when it all came crashing down. He worked

34
00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:16,840
Speaker 2: for Michelin, the tire company, which is where he kind

35
00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:18,800
Speaker 2: of showed that he had this skill for like cost

36
00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:22,480
Speaker 2: cutting and turning companies around, and then was recruited by

37
00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:26,960
Speaker 2: Renau and became known as lacost Killer, and you know,

38
00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:30,959
Speaker 2: broke kind of French unions and sacked a lot of

39
00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:35,519
Speaker 2: people shut down factories was like hugely controversial. And then

40
00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:39,200
Speaker 2: when Reno took over Nissan, they thought, this is the

41
00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:43,120
Speaker 2: guy to go to Japan and just like modernize this company,

42
00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:46,200
Speaker 2: be ruthless, fire the people he needs to fire, and

43
00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:48,600
Speaker 2: just like save this company from death.

44
00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:55,800
Speaker 1: It's so strange to hear someone reference going into the

45
00:02:55,919 --> 00:03:01,160
Speaker 1: Nissan culture to strip down and to make a Japanese

46
00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:05,959
Speaker 1: car company leaner and better and more competitive, when you're

47
00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:09,600
Speaker 1: always under the impression that the Japanese companies, particularly car companies,

48
00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:12,640
Speaker 1: are the leanest and meanest of them all. When Gone

49
00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:15,040
Speaker 1: goes over to Japan, does he find a lot of

50
00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:15,680
Speaker 1: fat there?

51
00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:19,120
Speaker 2: He does. There are practices that have just always been

52
00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:22,000
Speaker 2: the same way. There were, you know, car companies owned

53
00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:26,239
Speaker 2: shares in supermarkets, so all these kind of weird idiosyncrasies

54
00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:30,680
Speaker 2: that the Japanese staff just saw as normal, you know,

55
00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:33,959
Speaker 2: and it took an outsider like Going. And another interesting

56
00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:36,080
Speaker 2: thing about Going is, I think you know, some people

57
00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:39,080
Speaker 2: in Japan said to us, you know, he was viewed

58
00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:41,640
Speaker 2: with great suspicion to begin with, but the fact that

59
00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:45,080
Speaker 2: he was like culturally hard to place, you know, he

60
00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:49,440
Speaker 2: wasn't French. He wasn't American. You know, he was willing

61
00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:53,240
Speaker 2: to be the bad go Yeah, exactly. He didn't kind

62
00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:56,320
Speaker 2: of stand on ceremony. He was absolutely ruthless, and on

63
00:03:56,360 --> 00:04:01,000
Speaker 2: some level, perhaps because they were facing you know, extinction,

64
00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:03,280
Speaker 2: they kind of went with it. And the results were

65
00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:05,120
Speaker 2: so quick. He said, if I don't turn this round

66
00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:08,400
Speaker 2: within three years, are quit. He turned it around within

67
00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:11,560
Speaker 2: a year, and you know, it was just massive efficiencies

68
00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:15,440
Speaker 2: straight off the bat. And you know, I think initially

69
00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:18,080
Speaker 2: people thought he'd cooked the books, but it was just

70
00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:20,960
Speaker 2: the same ruthlessness he had. And he's an interesting guy

71
00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:24,280
Speaker 2: because he's obviously brilliant, but he's not someone like a

72
00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:29,159
Speaker 2: Steve Jobs or Mark Zuckerberg who has one design or

73
00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:33,760
Speaker 2: iconic brand or something that's associated with him. What he did,

74
00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:35,880
Speaker 2: he just had this focus and this work ethic, and

75
00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:40,080
Speaker 2: he inspired the people around him to commit to going

76
00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:43,320
Speaker 2: further than they'd ever pushed before and sticking with him

77
00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:45,760
Speaker 2: when he made hard decisions. And so what was so

78
00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:49,000
Speaker 2: fascinating making the series is you see how all these

79
00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:51,960
Speaker 2: things that made him brilliant as the success started to

80
00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:54,560
Speaker 2: go to his head, he kind of lost them. You know,

81
00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:57,240
Speaker 2: he wasn't working so hard he was spending a lot

82
00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:00,000
Speaker 2: of time in the private jet go you know, throwing parties,

83
00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:04,320
Speaker 2: SI going to Rio Carnival, you know, whereas his employees

84
00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:07,960
Speaker 2: were still buying their own stationery and you know, desperately

85
00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:11,599
Speaker 2: working and trying cutcasts wherever they could. And actually, like

86
00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:15,479
Speaker 2: it was just a really old, kind of tragic story

87
00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:19,240
Speaker 2: of success. It's like losing sight of what made you

88
00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:23,279
Speaker 2: so great, and suddenly people around you thinking, you know,

89
00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:24,719
Speaker 2: this emperor has no clothes.

90
00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:28,279
Speaker 1: You became aware of this story and you decided you

91
00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:31,960
Speaker 1: wanted to make this documentary after Gone went to Lebanon

92
00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:34,159
Speaker 1: and after the Tailors went to prison.

93
00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:39,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I became aware of the story really when

94
00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:41,640
Speaker 2: he escaped. You know, I remember the headlines around the world.

95
00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:44,800
Speaker 2: The New York Post had this like enormost double bass case,

96
00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:47,600
Speaker 2: and you know, the rumor was he was smuggled out

97
00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:50,760
Speaker 2: in a music equipment box. But the film came about,

98
00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:53,400
Speaker 2: I think it was the summer of twenty twenty one,

99
00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:57,160
Speaker 2: and Apple wanted to do a series on the story.

100
00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:00,520
Speaker 2: They'd approached this production company. At that point, we had

101
00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:02,920
Speaker 2: no access to Gon. It was a couple of months

102
00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:07,640
Speaker 2: before the Tailors were extradited to Japan, effectively swapping places

103
00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:11,600
Speaker 2: with the man they'd helped escape. So we started with

104
00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:14,040
Speaker 2: very little really, you know, we knew this was an

105
00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:17,200
Speaker 2: amazing story. There was a kind of Hollywood heist element

106
00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:19,680
Speaker 2: to it of one of the world's most famous business

107
00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:23,680
Speaker 2: people being smuggled out of an island, a very kind

108
00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:28,560
Speaker 2: of closely monitored country, smuggled inside a music box on

109
00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:29,440
Speaker 2: a private jet.

110
00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:31,880
Speaker 1: I want to be clear for our audience. When you

111
00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:34,280
Speaker 1: say music box, you mean the cases that they stowed

112
00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:35,640
Speaker 1: musical equipment.

113
00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:38,040
Speaker 2: In, right, exactly. Yeah, And there was like a guitar

114
00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:38,760
Speaker 2: case on top.

115
00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:40,680
Speaker 1: Gone was a bit of a band and there was

116
00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:42,600
Speaker 1: a little guy. So that made getting him out of

117
00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:44,440
Speaker 1: the country slightly easier than it would have been if

118
00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:47,159
Speaker 1: he was six foot five or somethingn't it. So you

119
00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:49,279
Speaker 1: became aware of the story after.

120
00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:53,080
Speaker 2: The escape, yeah, exactly. The name was familiar. You know,

121
00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:55,480
Speaker 2: he was this kind of superstar in the car industry.

122
00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:58,720
Speaker 2: But you know, I'm a journalist a filmmaker, but I

123
00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:02,159
Speaker 2: don't follow the car industry closely. I mean I remember,

124
00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:05,279
Speaker 2: you know, there was shock. You know, in Japan, he

125
00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:07,320
Speaker 2: was like a demigod. You know, there were like manga,

126
00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:10,320
Speaker 2: comic books about his life. He was voted you know,

127
00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:13,000
Speaker 2: the man women would most like to have children with,

128
00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:16,440
Speaker 2: you know, and he's not a conventionally handsome guy. So

129
00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:19,640
Speaker 2: you know, he had this aura and this incredible reputation

130
00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:23,280
Speaker 2: and then overnight suddenly all that just came crashing down.

131
00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:26,040
Speaker 1: I watched the film and I look at a timeline

132
00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:29,240
Speaker 1: and when you likely got involved. So when you see

133
00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:32,640
Speaker 1: the party, he goes to the Versai at a restaurant

134
00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:35,480
Speaker 1: coll Verasai and he has this party. And yet you

135
00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:37,600
Speaker 1: have a lot of footage from that party. How did

136
00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:38,640
Speaker 1: he film the party?

137
00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:42,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, so the Ghones had organized the Marie Antoinette themed

138
00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:45,800
Speaker 2: party at Versailles. And like, if you know your history,

139
00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:49,400
Speaker 2: Marie Antoinette is you know, the symbol. You know, her

140
00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:51,760
Speaker 2: famous quote is let the meat cakes. She's the symbol

141
00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:56,040
Speaker 2: of kind of extreme inequality. And you know, within France,

142
00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:58,640
Speaker 2: people getting their come up. And so like perhaps an

143
00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:02,320
Speaker 2: unwise like party theme for a man who's using his coma.

144
00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:04,400
Speaker 2: He is there a bit of hooprice, you could say,

145
00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:08,400
Speaker 2: And yeah, the party organizes higher videographer to shoot all

146
00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:12,800
Speaker 2: these people dressed in kind of Marie Antoinette themed you know,

147
00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:17,840
Speaker 2: gobs and it's kind of completely revolutionary France. Yeah, I

148
00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:20,000
Speaker 2: mean it stirs up a revolutionary in all of us,

149
00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:20,680
Speaker 2: I think. See.

150
00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:27,040
Speaker 1: So you get some wonderful footage of things like that,

151
00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:30,400
Speaker 1: the party, you're sit downs with Gone and his wife,

152
00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:34,200
Speaker 1: but Going in particular, that shot I'm assuming in Lebanon

153
00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:36,439
Speaker 1: after the fact, when he's when he's once he's escaped

154
00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:41,720
Speaker 1: to Lebanon exactly, and Gone strikes me as it seemed

155
00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:44,599
Speaker 1: like one of those situations where James Jones could have

156
00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:47,320
Speaker 1: left the room for several hours and Gone could have

157
00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:52,040
Speaker 1: spoken into the camera ceaselessly, you know, decrying his innocence

158
00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:54,800
Speaker 1: about what he seems like somebody who he could go

159
00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:57,839
Speaker 1: on and on forever to maintain his innocence. He's almost

160
00:08:57,880 --> 00:08:59,040
Speaker 1: never going to be satisfied.

161
00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:02,840
Speaker 2: Absolutely, he feels wronged. You know. When I asked him,

162
00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:05,160
Speaker 2: do you feel sorry for the victims in this story?

163
00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:07,199
Speaker 2: You know there's been a huge amount of collateral damage,

164
00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:10,400
Speaker 2: lives ruined by this whole saga, and he kind of

165
00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:13,080
Speaker 2: there's one moment he looked blankly at me and said,

166
00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:15,880
Speaker 2: if there's a victim here, it's me. You know, he

167
00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:19,080
Speaker 2: can't see beyond that. He feels there was a conspiracy

168
00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:23,000
Speaker 2: in Japan to take him down, and everything flowed from that.

169
00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:26,360
Speaker 1: But at the same time your documentary and I could

170
00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:28,360
Speaker 1: be wrong, maybe this is just what I gleaned from it.

171
00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:31,640
Speaker 1: There's a whiff of the idea, or even just a

172
00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:34,680
Speaker 1: slight whiff of the idea that that's certainly possible. Meaning

173
00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:39,280
Speaker 1: you walk away from watching your program with the idea

174
00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:42,880
Speaker 1: that the political life and the policies that are enforced

175
00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:46,480
Speaker 1: by the Japanese government are very often controlled by business itself.

176
00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:50,160
Speaker 1: Nissan isn't just some company. Nissan, like Sony, is a

177
00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:53,280
Speaker 1: huge company with tentacles into every corner of the world

178
00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:58,120
Speaker 1: and one of the major companies with a Japanese you know, headquarters.

179
00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:02,120
Speaker 1: And to say that people want to derail the Renau

180
00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:08,040
Speaker 1: Nissan merger is not a foolish idea, correct, absolutely.

181
00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:10,679
Speaker 2: I mean, the interesting thing about this series, in this

182
00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:13,080
Speaker 2: whole story, is that it's not a black and white

183
00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:16,000
Speaker 2: story of kind of good versus evil. There are lots

184
00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:20,120
Speaker 2: of kind of contradictory truths, and like, there's no doubt

185
00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:22,160
Speaker 2: in my mind that there was a conspiracy to take

186
00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:23,080
Speaker 2: down Carlos Gon.

187
00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:26,319
Speaker 1: You know, you believe there.

188
00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:30,040
Speaker 2: Was absolutely at first, and so Nissan is like, as

189
00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:32,560
Speaker 2: you say, one of the crown jewels in Japanese industry.

190
00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:36,520
Speaker 2: The thought of that being you know, subsumed by a

191
00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:40,400
Speaker 2: French company Reno was just an insult to Japanese pride,

192
00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:42,760
Speaker 2: and so they wanted and they realized that Carlos Gon,

193
00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:46,520
Speaker 2: having led them to huge success, saved them from extinction,

194
00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:51,160
Speaker 2: was now thinking about pulling off this merger, partly because

195
00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:53,760
Speaker 2: he would do quite well out of it. How was

196
00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:57,800
Speaker 2: Reno viewed as a car company, I think by the

197
00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:01,200
Speaker 2: Japanese as you know, a kind of poor relation. You know,

198
00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:06,800
Speaker 2: they didn't admire French kind of mechanics design. They bought

199
00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:09,280
Speaker 2: a huge stake in Nisan at a time when Nissan

200
00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:11,959
Speaker 2: was about to go bust, so it was a kind

201
00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:14,160
Speaker 2: of marriage or convenience. But then the idea that they

202
00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:17,240
Speaker 2: would be fully subsumed by a full alliance was just

203
00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:20,760
Speaker 2: anatoma to them. So there's no doubt in my mind

204
00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:24,800
Speaker 2: that Nissan and the Japanese justice system decided to take

205
00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:25,680
Speaker 2: Carlos going down.

206
00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:32,720
Speaker 1: Gone eventually is excoriated for paying himself huge amounts of money,

207
00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:36,280
Speaker 1: and the Japanese were like, listen, no one deserves to

208
00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:39,520
Speaker 1: be paid that amount of money when you're producing cars.

209
00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:41,120
Speaker 1: I mean, no one at the head of a company,

210
00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:43,440
Speaker 1: no matter how successful it is, should be paid this

211
00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:44,760
Speaker 1: amount of money. Is that correct?

212
00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:47,760
Speaker 2: That's right? And I think it's partly a cultural thing,

213
00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:51,160
Speaker 2: you know. I think in France extreme wealth is viewed

214
00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:54,400
Speaker 2: with great suspicion. Likewise, in Japan, where you're kind of

215
00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:57,040
Speaker 2: you know, these companies are kind of hierarchical. You work

216
00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:01,120
Speaker 2: there for your whole lifetime and incrementally increase your salary.

217
00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:04,160
Speaker 2: Carlos Gon comes some more of a kind of American

218
00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:09,000
Speaker 2: business background, where the CEO is rewarded, you know, proportionately

219
00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:11,839
Speaker 2: with the company's profits. So he thought he was worth,

220
00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:14,240
Speaker 2: you know, five times what he was getting. He saw

221
00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:17,880
Speaker 2: himself on a level with Steve Jobs, Mark Zuckerberg, all

222
00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:21,440
Speaker 2: these kind of people. Carlos Gon's problem is that it

223
00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:24,480
Speaker 2: wasn't Carlos Gon inc. He was working for two companies

224
00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:27,679
Speaker 2: that had shareholders. He was an employee of these two companies,

225
00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:31,760
Speaker 2: whereas in his mind he became bigger than these companies

226
00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:33,760
Speaker 2: and deserved whatever he wanted to take.

227
00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:38,600
Speaker 1: Now, when you think that Gon was framed, you think

228
00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:41,880
Speaker 1: that he was set up in order again to derail

229
00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:46,120
Speaker 1: the merger, and the Japanese powers that be wanted to

230
00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:50,160
Speaker 1: hobble him, if you will. How much was he being

231
00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:52,800
Speaker 1: paid in those final years, and how much was he

232
00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:55,400
Speaker 1: accused of stealing from the company.

233
00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:58,440
Speaker 2: So the interesting thing is that he kind of operated

234
00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:01,240
Speaker 2: in this gray area where he was paid by both

235
00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:04,320
Speaker 2: companies and he could kind of operate the way he

236
00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:07,880
Speaker 2: wanted because there wasn't the scrutiny. He'd surrounded himself with

237
00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:10,280
Speaker 2: yes men at both companies. He spent a lot of

238
00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:13,920
Speaker 2: his time, increasingly on a private jet, often flying to

239
00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:17,920
Speaker 2: places not on business but to kind of enjoy the

240
00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:21,920
Speaker 2: trappings of his success. But what's interesting is that even

241
00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:24,559
Speaker 2: though it was a conspiracy at first, they almost then

242
00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:28,680
Speaker 2: stumbled across evidence of real corruption, you know, so almost

243
00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:31,400
Speaker 2: by mistake, they found on the laptop.

244
00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:33,000
Speaker 1: On the Nissan side of the Renna side.

245
00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:37,200
Speaker 2: So the Nissan lawyers basically went and searched his former

246
00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:41,679
Speaker 2: lawyer's office in Beirut, discovered a laptop which had a

247
00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:45,920
Speaker 2: hard drive with all these flows of money which he'd

248
00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:50,400
Speaker 2: kept secret from Nissan, basically to and from Middle Eastern businessmen,

249
00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:53,520
Speaker 2: and he was writing checks from Nissan and Reno and

250
00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:57,760
Speaker 2: then through very convoluted means, through shell companies and so on,

251
00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:00,480
Speaker 2: he was receiving tens of millions of dollars back into

252
00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:04,080
Speaker 2: his pocket and he kept that secret. And when we

253
00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:06,280
Speaker 2: put it to him, he doesn't really have a convincing

254
00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:10,360
Speaker 2: answer for why, you know, he would be writing these

255
00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:13,959
Speaker 2: checks and receiving money and keeping it secret from his employees.

256
00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:16,880
Speaker 2: So that is why he's now wanted not only in

257
00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:20,120
Speaker 2: Japan from where he escaped, but the French now want

258
00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:21,520
Speaker 2: to put him on trial for corruption.

259
00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:26,840
Speaker 1: So I guess what's frustrating and confusing for me is

260
00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:31,080
Speaker 1: that on one hand people maintained that the Japanese government

261
00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:33,360
Speaker 1: set him up. On the other hand, he stole from

262
00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:35,480
Speaker 1: both companies. Which is it right?

263
00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:38,840
Speaker 2: Well, that's the thing, you know, we pose the question

264
00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:42,200
Speaker 2: in film four. The title is victim or villain, and

265
00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:45,600
Speaker 2: it doesn't need necessarily need to be either or you know,

266
00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:49,480
Speaker 2: he can be a victim of a conspiracy who suffered greatly,

267
00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:52,920
Speaker 2: was in solitary confinement, interrogated without a lawyer. You know,

268
00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:56,760
Speaker 2: they call the Japanese justice system the hostage justice system

269
00:14:56,800 --> 00:15:01,080
Speaker 2: because you're effectively kept hostage until you confess. So there's

270
00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:03,320
Speaker 2: no doubt that he and his family were victims at

271
00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:06,360
Speaker 2: that point. The problem for him is that they did

272
00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:09,600
Speaker 2: then stumble across real corruption and the case just became

273
00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:12,800
Speaker 2: you know, these allegations are much much more serious, and

274
00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:15,800
Speaker 2: so it's very hard for him to dismiss the label

275
00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:18,080
Speaker 2: of villain unless he's willing to go and stand trial

276
00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:21,360
Speaker 2: in France, which he's not. You know, right now, he's

277
00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:24,840
Speaker 2: a fugitive in Lebanon, and as far as I can see,

278
00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:28,680
Speaker 2: that's where he's going to spend the rest of his life.

279
00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:36,520
Speaker 1: Director James Jones. If you enjoy conversations with documentary directors

280
00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:40,640
Speaker 1: uncovering corporate corruption, check out my episode with Alex Gibney,

281
00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:44,320
Speaker 1: director of Enron, The Smartest Guys in the Room.

282
00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:47,360
Speaker 3: The ghosts of all my films tend to follow me,

283
00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:51,320
Speaker 3: and I often keep in touch with sources and interview subjects,

284
00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:55,760
Speaker 3: and in odd ways they keep coming back to films

285
00:15:55,800 --> 00:16:00,240
Speaker 3: I make henceforth, So they kind of reverberate a little

286
00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:03,480
Speaker 3: bit like that moment in Ghostbusters. So they say, don't

287
00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:07,480
Speaker 3: cross the streams. Well, my streams are constantly getting crossed.

288
00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:11,200
Speaker 3: It seems like characters from one film are intruding into another.

289
00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:16,080
Speaker 1: To hear more of my conversation with Alex Gibney, go

290
00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:20,080
Speaker 1: to Here's the Thing dot org. After the break, James

291
00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:24,360
Speaker 1: Jones shares the intricacies of how Carlos gon was smuggled

292
00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:36,720
Speaker 1: out of Japan in a box. I'm Alec Baldwin and

293
00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:41,400
Speaker 1: you're listening to Here's the Thing. Former automobile executive. Carlos

294
00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:45,440
Speaker 1: Goon is a fugitive currently living the life of a

295
00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:49,280
Speaker 1: freeman in Lebanon. I was curious to learn that, while

296
00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:52,760
Speaker 1: the Japanese authorities couldn't get their hands on going due

297
00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:58,280
Speaker 1: to Lebanon's extradition laws, was the money he allegedly laundered recoverable.

298
00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:01,320
Speaker 2: That's a good question. I mean, I think some of

299
00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:04,240
Speaker 2: his assets in France were frozen. I think some of

300
00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:07,119
Speaker 2: his assets in the States as well. But you know,

301
00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:09,159
Speaker 2: I think most of that money that ended up in

302
00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:12,240
Speaker 2: his pocket was in shell companies arranged from Lebanon, you know,

303
00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:15,640
Speaker 2: either within Lebanon itself or it in kind of tax

304
00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:18,879
Speaker 2: havens around the world. So I think Carlos Gohn is

305
00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:20,960
Speaker 2: still living a pretty comfortable life. He's living in the

306
00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:24,040
Speaker 2: mansion paid for by Nissan. He's got his super yacht

307
00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:26,080
Speaker 2: paid for by the you know, the money from the

308
00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:29,040
Speaker 2: Middle East and businessman. So I think the thing that

309
00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:32,320
Speaker 2: kills him is that his legacy has gone. You know,

310
00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:35,880
Speaker 2: his reputation will never recover. He's a fugitive. We all

311
00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:37,720
Speaker 2: know him now as a man who escaped in a box,

312
00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:42,200
Speaker 2: and that kills him because he would have gone down

313
00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:44,959
Speaker 2: in you know, the Automotive Hall of Fame as one

314
00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:48,200
Speaker 2: of the genius businessmen of the twenty first century.

315
00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:52,960
Speaker 1: So he decides to escape. Now the tailors, I want

316
00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:55,840
Speaker 1: you to describe how they come together. I doubt the

317
00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:59,520
Speaker 1: tailors have a website called We'll put you in a

318
00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:03,320
Speaker 1: Box smuggle you to Lebanon dot com. How did that

319
00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:04,880
Speaker 1: relationship get forged?

320
00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:09,879
Speaker 2: So, Mike Taylor is a former Green Beret. He'd you know,

321
00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:12,359
Speaker 2: served around the world, and then after leaving the military,

322
00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:15,400
Speaker 2: he'd actually spent some time in Lebanon during the Civil War.

323
00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:17,919
Speaker 2: There had met his wife, who is Lebanese, who is

324
00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:21,479
Speaker 2: a kind of distant cousin of Carlos Gohan's wife. So

325
00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:25,280
Speaker 2: I think Carlos Gohan's wife kind of started putting the

326
00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:28,280
Speaker 2: word out in Lebanon saying, you know, Carlos is going

327
00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:30,959
Speaker 2: to die in a Japanese prison. He's in solitary confinement.

328
00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:34,199
Speaker 2: It's freezing cold. You know, he's not going to live

329
00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:36,240
Speaker 2: much longer. I'm never going to properly see him again.

330
00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:36,959
Speaker 1: You know.

331
00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:39,720
Speaker 2: Beirut is like a big village. Everyone knows everyone. And

332
00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:43,760
Speaker 2: someone said, there's this guy, Mike Taylor, and he's got

333
00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:47,480
Speaker 2: quite a reputation. He'd helped journalists escape from the Taliban.

334
00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:51,480
Speaker 2: He had a specialty in kids who are abducted by

335
00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:54,280
Speaker 2: one parent. He'd go in and get the kid back

336
00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:56,920
Speaker 2: for the parent who paid him to do it. And

337
00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:00,760
Speaker 2: so he just had this like amazing reputation. He met

338
00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:04,080
Speaker 2: Carlos Gohan's wife in Beirut. They talked about a possible plan.

339
00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:07,080
Speaker 2: But you know, this is not getting someone out of

340
00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:09,800
Speaker 2: Egypt or something like that. This is Japan. It's an island.

341
00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:13,919
Speaker 2: The CCTV everywhere going is under house arrest. This is like,

342
00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:17,320
Speaker 2: you know, for someone like Mike Taylor, this is you know,

343
00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:20,440
Speaker 2: if you're a mountain climber, it's like climbing Everest or whatever.

344
00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:22,040
Speaker 2: This is just like the ultimate challenge.

345
00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:24,560
Speaker 1: Taylor is what we used to call a soldier of fortune,

346
00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:27,800
Speaker 1: right exactly. Yeah, this is a great challenge for him.

347
00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:30,440
Speaker 2: It's a great challenge, and you know, I'm sure he

348
00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:32,760
Speaker 2: realizes that at some point it could be quite lucrative.

349
00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:35,439
Speaker 2: But I think just and also I think on a

350
00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:39,320
Speaker 2: personal level, he met Carlos Gohan's wife and felt great sympathy,

351
00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:42,040
Speaker 2: felt like there was an injustice, thought the Japanese system

352
00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:46,639
Speaker 2: was was unfair and cruel, and so he started formulating

353
00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:49,080
Speaker 2: this plan. And you know, they could have gone by boat,

354
00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:51,679
Speaker 2: but it was winter, the sea could be choppy, and

355
00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:53,960
Speaker 2: he thought, let's get him in a Let's get him

356
00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:56,399
Speaker 2: in a box, take him on a private jet, you know,

357
00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:00,119
Speaker 2: small airport, not in Tokyo, you know, the secure it

358
00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:03,800
Speaker 2: is more lax on private jets. He did a test

359
00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:08,399
Speaker 2: and saw that they check the luggage going into into Japan,

360
00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:10,600
Speaker 2: but not coming out. He made sure the box was

361
00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:12,800
Speaker 2: too big to fit through the X rays. So he

362
00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:15,359
Speaker 2: was like, you know, it's a military operation, planning every

363
00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:18,520
Speaker 2: single detail because he was prepared. He was prepared.

364
00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:22,920
Speaker 1: But for me, when I'm curious about us who contacted Taylor,

365
00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:28,400
Speaker 1: who's working with Gone, that access as tailor.

366
00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:31,479
Speaker 2: So that I mean, basically, because Carlos Gone was pretty

367
00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:34,040
Speaker 2: clear that his phone was tapped. And you know he

368
00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:37,680
Speaker 2: could tell that because one day he called a newspaper

369
00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:41,480
Speaker 2: journalist to say, they're a guy standing outside my house

370
00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:44,240
Speaker 2: and we have evidence that Nissan did use spies to

371
00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:47,560
Speaker 2: follow him and other people they were kind of going after.

372
00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:50,840
Speaker 2: And the day after he called the journalist, the spies

373
00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:53,399
Speaker 2: didn't come to stand outside his house. So he thought, okay,

374
00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:55,600
Speaker 2: I know they tapped my phone. So he had to

375
00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:59,560
Speaker 2: get a special burner phone, but was essentially communicating with

376
00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:02,800
Speaker 2: his wife, who was communicating with Mike Taylor. So his

377
00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:06,000
Speaker 2: wife was in Lebanon at this time. So she is

378
00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:09,320
Speaker 2: a fascinating character because she's his second wife. She's kind

379
00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:14,639
Speaker 2: of beautiful, blonde, charismatic, incredibly warm, and she was kind

380
00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:17,880
Speaker 2: of associated with Gohn's transformation from this kind of nerdy

381
00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:21,360
Speaker 2: mister Bean character, Yes, to someone who loved lavish parties.

382
00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:23,240
Speaker 1: Yes, dressed differently.

383
00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:26,879
Speaker 2: Dress differently, had his hair, hair implant, you know, laser

384
00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:30,919
Speaker 2: eye surgery, sharp suits, and you know, suddenly was on

385
00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:33,000
Speaker 2: the red carpet at Cairn. You know, this was like

386
00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:37,520
Speaker 2: a totally unknown world. This is red carpet going exactly.

387
00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:41,000
Speaker 2: So she was seen, I mean a Bimbo is too strong,

388
00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:43,480
Speaker 2: but certainly someone who enjoyed the finer things in life.

389
00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:46,879
Speaker 2: But what you saw over the course of this whole

390
00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:50,040
Speaker 2: saga is that she, first of all, when he was

391
00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:53,480
Speaker 2: locked up, she went out on the media and kind

392
00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:56,680
Speaker 2: of almost single handedly changed the world's perception of the

393
00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:59,520
Speaker 2: Japanese justice system to the point where even a UN

394
00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:03,760
Speaker 2: body issued a report about hostage justice. You know, the

395
00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:07,199
Speaker 2: terrible violations of human rights. Now, you might say Carlos

396
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:11,480
Speaker 2: Gohn is an unlikely champion of human rights, but that's

397
00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:13,840
Speaker 2: what his wife did. And then she also played this

398
00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:17,520
Speaker 2: kind of amazing strategic role in pulling off the escape,

399
00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:20,200
Speaker 2: which he doesn't want to talk about, clearly for legal reasons,

400
00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:22,359
Speaker 2: but you know, it's quite clear that she was pulling

401
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:25,560
Speaker 2: the strings. But she now within Lebanon is kind of

402
00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:28,480
Speaker 2: celebrated as this power behind the throne who pulled off

403
00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:31,560
Speaker 2: this amazing plot. Obviously, Goan was the man who was

404
00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:35,560
Speaker 2: brave enough to actually lie down inside this box in

405
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,680
Speaker 2: the dark and just pray that he made it to Lebanon.

406
00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:41,840
Speaker 2: But I think, you know, I think that's interesting about

407
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,360
Speaker 2: his own psychology, right, I mean, he's a man who

408
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:47,920
Speaker 2: is willing to take these incredibly high pressure decisions, and

409
00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:51,800
Speaker 2: he can seem almost quite robotic sometimes. So he just

410
00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:55,280
Speaker 2: weighed up the kind of cost benefit and the risk

411
00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:57,919
Speaker 2: of getting in that box and risking everything, and he

412
00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:01,760
Speaker 2: thought it's worth it, because otherwise, you know, I die

413
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:03,200
Speaker 2: in prison in Japan.

414
00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:08,640
Speaker 1: So the Tailors are arrested. There is an extradition treaty

415
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,359
Speaker 1: and some kind of legal arrangements between the United States

416
00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:15,880
Speaker 1: government and the Japanese government, and the Tailors are arrested

417
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:19,359
Speaker 1: in the US first correct, right at the behest of

418
00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:23,199
Speaker 1: the Japanese government. Absolutely yeah, And the Tailors make no

419
00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:25,800
Speaker 1: attempt to flee that prosecution. No.

420
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:27,800
Speaker 2: I mean, the Tailors could have laid low in Lebanon

421
00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,960
Speaker 2: like Carlos Gown and you know, enjoyed the fruits of

422
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:35,680
Speaker 2: their amazingly successful escape. But they wanted to go back

423
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:37,359
Speaker 2: to the States. They didn't want to hide away. I

424
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:41,439
Speaker 2: think deep down they thought it wasn't such a serious crime,

425
00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:44,640
Speaker 2: and you know, the States wouldn't give up their own citizens,

426
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:48,520
Speaker 2: let alone a kind of war hero. But they underestimated

427
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:50,679
Speaker 2: how mad the Japanese were. I think, you know, this

428
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:54,440
Speaker 2: was a national humiliation to lose its most famous prisoner

429
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,800
Speaker 2: who pops up in Lebanon and it gives a press conference,

430
00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:01,600
Speaker 2: you know, slamming the Japanese's just the system. So I

431
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:04,320
Speaker 2: think they were so determined to get the Taylor's back

432
00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:06,200
Speaker 2: because they knew they'd never get Carlos gone.

433
00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:13,399
Speaker 1: Director James Jones. If you're enjoying this conversation, tell a

434
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:16,159
Speaker 1: friend and be sure to follow Here's the Thing on

435
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:21,240
Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

436
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:24,840
Speaker 1: When we come back, James Jones shares what it was

437
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 1: like interviewing Carlos Gon while Gon was on the lamb

438
00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:43,720
Speaker 1: from the Law. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to

439
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:48,280
Speaker 1: Here's the Thing. Director James Jones got access to all

440
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 1: of the major players in the Carlos Gon saga, including

441
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 1: those who were tried by the Japanese government for their involvement.

442
00:24:55,880 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 1: After a three year battle. Former Nissan executive Greg Kelly

443
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:04,480
Speaker 1: received a six month suspended sentence, but Michael Taylor and

444
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:08,080
Speaker 1: his son Peter ultimately served time in a Japanese prison.

445
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:12,800
Speaker 2: So they served nearly two years. And it was brutal, correct,

446
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 2: it was brutal. I mean it was like, you know,

447
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:19,359
Speaker 2: solitary confinement, freezing cold cells. Mike Taylor is not a

448
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:19,880
Speaker 2: young man.

449
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:20,560
Speaker 1: You know.

450
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:24,240
Speaker 2: He came out of prison, you know, incredibly gaunt and sick.

451
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 2: He looked about thirty years older than he really is.

452
00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 2: They told us these stories that they'd be forced to

453
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,120
Speaker 2: they'd be given a big piece of cardboard and they'd

454
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:34,680
Speaker 2: have to rip it into smaller and smaller pieces. Yes,

455
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:39,480
Speaker 2: and I think the prison system would say that was entertainment,

456
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:42,000
Speaker 2: that was to you know, stop them being bored. But

457
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:45,920
Speaker 2: you know, Mike Taylor said that his fingers were like painful,

458
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 2: and it was like, you know, sounds to me more

459
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:52,560
Speaker 2: like torture rather than entertainment. So they certainly had an

460
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 2: even harder time than Carlos going in prison. And you know,

461
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:58,440
Speaker 2: I think for Mike Taylor, the thing that was even

462
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 2: more painful than the kind of physical discomfort and hardship

463
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 2: was that he'd involved his son. And his son is

464
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:07,919
Speaker 2: not a kind of hardened war veteran. He's a you know,

465
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:13,160
Speaker 2: young guy in his twenties who probably completely adores his dad,

466
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,400
Speaker 2: has always wanted to emulate his dad. So the chance

467
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 2: to be part, even a small part of his most

468
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 2: outlandish plot was probably just too exciting to turn down.

469
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,680
Speaker 2: But then no one would have ever thought that he'd

470
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,320
Speaker 2: end up spending you know, years in a Japanese prison

471
00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:27,760
Speaker 2: as well.

472
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:32,480
Speaker 1: And in the program Gone, I believe in one of

473
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:35,680
Speaker 1: your sitdowns with him, he's quoted as saying something along

474
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:39,680
Speaker 1: the lines of everybody knew the risks they were taking, yeah,

475
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 1: and so Gone does not have a lot of sympathy

476
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 1: or empathy for the tailors.

477
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:48,400
Speaker 2: I was genuinely surprised how little he he had.

478
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,920
Speaker 1: Big insight into Gone. That comment real incided to go.

479
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:54,760
Speaker 1: Like I said, Going's about Gone totally, and he uses

480
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,720
Speaker 1: people to get what he wants and to move along

481
00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 1: the game board as he desires. And then he doesn't

482
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 1: really when he doesn't have many use for you anymore,

483
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,160
Speaker 1: it seems like he just forgets about you. One thing

484
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:08,320
Speaker 1: that I was confused about was what was the fee

485
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 1: that the tailors were told they would be paid for

486
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 1: the escape just the escape itself.

487
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:18,480
Speaker 2: So they were given expenses ahead of the escape, which

488
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 2: was I think one point three million dollars, which was

489
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:25,960
Speaker 2: just to cover planes, private planes, you know, a reqi,

490
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:29,679
Speaker 2: the pilots or you know all those. But you know,

491
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:32,920
Speaker 2: I'm probably a bit for yourself as well. But Mike

492
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:37,399
Speaker 2: had always said, after the fact, we will we'll talk money.

493
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 2: You know, the priority is getting you out after we

494
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 2: do it. And I think they did come to an

495
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 2: arrangement afterwards for some money in the in the low millions.

496
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 2: But then Mike and his son spent years in Japanese

497
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,960
Speaker 2: prison and say they've got kind of a million dollars

498
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:57,680
Speaker 2: of legal fees, which Goan had assured them he would pay,

499
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:02,200
Speaker 2: and to date has he paid. He's paid them a

500
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:03,639
Speaker 2: tiny fraction of that.

501
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:06,919
Speaker 1: Is it difficult for them to take Goan's money? Is

502
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:08,000
Speaker 1: that the legal issue?

503
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:10,960
Speaker 2: Well, they can't touch him. I think. You know, Mike

504
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 2: has gone to Lebanon to meet Goan and kind of

505
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:19,399
Speaker 2: appeal to his decency exactly. You know, it's like I

506
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:23,200
Speaker 2: saved your life, unique brand of decency when Goane got

507
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:25,359
Speaker 2: out of the box on the private jet and he

508
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:27,560
Speaker 2: said to Mike Taylor, you know you saved my life,

509
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:30,639
Speaker 2: and he really did. Like if it wasn't for Mike Taylor,

510
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,119
Speaker 2: Carlos Gohen would still be in a Japanese prison and

511
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:35,920
Speaker 2: Mike Taylor would have just been living a free man

512
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:36,920
Speaker 2: in Massachusetts.

513
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:37,719
Speaker 1: Where is Taylor.

514
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:40,480
Speaker 2: Now he's back home in Massachusetts and where is his son?

515
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 2: His son is in Dubai kind of starting out various businesses.

516
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 1: I think is Taylor willing to talk about what happened

517
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:50,880
Speaker 1: or is he better off not talking about what happened.

518
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 1: I mean, he served his time.

519
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:55,600
Speaker 2: He served his time. You know, he gave us his

520
00:28:55,600 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 2: first interview and Peter Taylor, and you know, he kind

521
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 2: of trusted we were doing it right. He didn't want

522
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 2: it just to be the Carlos Gohon show as well.

523
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 2: But I think he knows now because he has spoken

524
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,960
Speaker 2: out about feeling let down by Gone and you know,

525
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 2: the legal fees not being paid. I think he recognizes

526
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 2: that that relationship is over. He's not going to receive

527
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 2: a pennymore.

528
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 1: Right now, when you're sitting down and doing the one

529
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 1: on ones with Gone, you did them in Lebanon. Correct? Yeah,

530
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:26,880
Speaker 1: I'm assuming you did hours and hours of interviews with him,

531
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:27,959
Speaker 1: correct or limited?

532
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 2: He's he's an impatient guy. But as long as you're

533
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 2: on top topics he likes talking about. He'll give you

534
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 2: all day. It's when you start asking the tough questions

535
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 2: he suddenly starts looking at his watch.

536
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 1: You know, ah, did you ask the tough questions and

537
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:40,560
Speaker 1: we did.

538
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, so we asked about the omar and allegations.

539
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:45,719
Speaker 2: We also asked, you know, his his dad was a

540
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,680
Speaker 2: convicted murderer priest.

541
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 1: That's amazing part of the story.

542
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 2: And you know, as his wife said, you know, Gon

543
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 2: basically just shut down that whole topic. You know, he

544
00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 2: was a kid, his father was accused of killing a priest,

545
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 2: was sentenced death. Goan was kind of six years old.

546
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 2: Must have been incredibly traumatic and formative. But it's a secret.

547
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:07,720
Speaker 2: You know, no one talks about it. It's kind of

548
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:10,479
Speaker 2: known about Lebanon, but had never been reported. Gone had

549
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 2: always refused to talk about it. But what was so

550
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 2: interesting is that his wife, Carol said, his whole life

551
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 2: has been trying to prove to his dad that he's

552
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 2: not his dad. And then you think, my god, he's

553
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 2: tried to prove that he's not a criminal like his dad,

554
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 2: but he's ended up breaking the law. You know, now

555
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 2: a fugitive in Lebanon. It's just like kind of come

556
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 2: full circle. So I thought that was just so revealing

557
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 2: of his mentality and drive.

558
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 1: When you should something like this, it's presumed that there's

559
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff that you leave out that you

560
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:44,560
Speaker 1: might have wished you had left in.

561
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:48,040
Speaker 2: Was that the case, I think almost everything is in there.

562
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 2: There were a few people who knew Gone very well,

563
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:55,959
Speaker 2: who would only speak to us on background, but who

564
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 2: gave us the idea of him as a narcissist, and

565
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 2: you know, helped us understand and his psychology to kind

566
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 2: of join the dots of the facts we had. For instance,

567
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 2: we had the contents of his mobile phone when he

568
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 2: was arrested and he was like totting up his personal wealth,

569
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 2: and there was the final note was and if I

570
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,840
Speaker 2: pull off this merger, I'll become a billionaire, and so like,

571
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:21,720
Speaker 2: we had insights like that into him. But there are

572
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 2: a few people who had been very close to him

573
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:25,920
Speaker 2: for a number of years that we would have liked

574
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 2: to go on camera. But in terms of the key players,

575
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:32,320
Speaker 2: like having Gone and his wife and then the tailors,

576
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 2: those are the key players who who we just needed

577
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 2: to have to make it feel like we were telling

578
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 2: the full story.

579
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:41,800
Speaker 1: Were you commissioned to do this? Did Apple commission you?

580
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 2: Or this was your pro Apple commissioned it? Yet?

581
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 1: God, and if we go down your filmography Dispatches, Panorama,

582
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 1: This World, the Frontline episodes, Children of Guys are more

583
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:59,800
Speaker 1: than a few of them. Commissions or you like commissions.

584
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a mixture. I mean the last film I

585
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 2: did before this was about Chernobyl, and that was my

586
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 2: idea that we then took to Sky and HBO. I'm

587
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:12,880
Speaker 2: working on a Russia film now that's independently funded that

588
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 2: we will hope to premier at film festivals and then,

589
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,320
Speaker 2: And that's been actually great working in a different way,

590
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 2: so you're not necessarily answering straight to a broadcast or streamer.

591
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 2: I think streamers are more prescriptive probably than traditional broadcasters.

592
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 2: I think I've been lucky so like Chernobyl, it was

593
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:36,000
Speaker 2: a very clear concept of like telling the story entirely

594
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 2: through archive, a lot of it unseen, and you know,

595
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 2: I think you just try and make sure that you

596
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:45,560
Speaker 2: accept the commission from people who buy into that vision.

597
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:48,880
Speaker 2: So I've never had a situation where someone has wanted

598
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 2: the film to be something completely different.

599
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 1: So pretty much get that sorted at upfront.

600
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:54,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.

601
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:57,240
Speaker 1: You guys both want the same thing exactly, So I've

602
00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 1: never felt arguments about what stays in a way get

603
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 1: to cut out.

604
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 2: It'll be yeah, you'd get minor notes. But I think

605
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 2: like maybe, unlike with a movie where you have like

606
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 2: studio execs, you know, demanding major changes, I think from

607
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 2: the whole a doc director, at least in my experience,

608
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 2: you feel like it's always your own and you might

609
00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 2: have to compromise on a couple of things, but it's

610
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:22,480
Speaker 2: your vision that they're buying into. But maybe I've just

611
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:23,000
Speaker 2: been lucky.

612
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:27,400
Speaker 1: Now does go and roam the streets of Lebanon, of

613
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 1: be rude or where have you? Freely? Does he have

614
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:32,479
Speaker 1: to mask himself? Because the guy that gets put in

615
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 1: a box in Japan and sent to Lebanon could justice

616
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:38,960
Speaker 1: easily be kidnapped, put it in a box and shipped

617
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 1: to Japan and go you know, round trip if you will.

618
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 2: I mean, and we know who might put him in

619
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 2: the box and take him back. Right there's a guy

620
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:50,440
Speaker 2: who's got a who's probably seeking revenge right now. But yeah,

621
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 2: he drives around with heavy security. You know, he has

622
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 2: armed guards. He's very careful about the way he travels,

623
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 2: and you know Lebanon, it's it's not just about sent

624
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 2: back to Japan, but Lebanon is a very unstable place.

625
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 2: So although it's you know, beautiful country, great food, good beaches.

626
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 2: You know, you can walk in the mountains. You know,

627
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 2: Hezbolau is one of the largest parties, and that you know,

628
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:16,840
Speaker 2: it feels like it's constantly on the brink of economic collapse,

629
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:20,520
Speaker 2: civil war. So he's trapped in a place that for

630
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:23,760
Speaker 2: a man who's accustomed to flying the world and private

631
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 2: jets and living, you know, the life of ultimate freedom,

632
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:30,840
Speaker 2: he's constrained. He's constrained and you know, who knows what

633
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 2: Lebanon will look like in five years.

634
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:33,839
Speaker 1: Where's Kelly? Now?

635
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 2: Kelly's back home in Nashville. So Kelly was his kind

636
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 2: of right hand man, the man who was kind of

637
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,320
Speaker 2: tasked with keeping going at the company. As he said,

638
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:45,760
Speaker 2: going was like the Michael Jordan of the car industry,

639
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 2: and it was my job to make sure he didn't

640
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 2: go anywhere.

641
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:52,239
Speaker 1: His story in the show is painful because you really

642
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:55,720
Speaker 1: see him suffer. Right, you know, the tailors committed a crime.

643
00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:59,040
Speaker 1: The tailors, although their hearts were in the right place,

644
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,480
Speaker 1: they were immersed there is they took money. They committed

645
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,799
Speaker 1: a crime. Gone is probably guilty of some of what

646
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:07,759
Speaker 1: they say. He is at least, oh, they shoulday at

647
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:09,960
Speaker 1: least it appears that way, at least a layman would

648
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:12,880
Speaker 1: say that. But Kelly seems like the one person of

649
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,520
Speaker 1: the project was purely innocent. Yeah, he didn't deserve any

650
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 1: of what happened to him.

651
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,600
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And they tricked him into coming over to Japan

652
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,200
Speaker 2: knowing that he needed back surgery. He was in agony,

653
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 2: so he had this incredibly long flight. They assumed that

654
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:27,879
Speaker 2: he would just be desperate to go home. When they

655
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 2: confronted him with these charges, he'd sign whatever they wanted

656
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:32,880
Speaker 2: and he'd throw going under the bus.

657
00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:34,759
Speaker 1: I can't believe he got on the plane. I know,

658
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 1: why did he go? Who's his lawyer? I know?

659
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 2: I know, well there is there is one person in

660
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 2: particular who was like Greg Kelly's protege, who is the

661
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:46,359
Speaker 2: one who called him back, who he trusted mistakenly, and

662
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:49,719
Speaker 2: you know they underestimated Greg Kelly. He was just like, well,

663
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 2: these charges aren't true. I can't possibly sign this, And

664
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:55,240
Speaker 2: he ended up spending three years of his life stuck

665
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:55,720
Speaker 2: in Japan.

666
00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:57,239
Speaker 1: What are you working on now?

667
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:01,440
Speaker 2: So it's a film about Russian assassination, which is we're

668
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 2: submitting to festivals next year.

669
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:04,280
Speaker 1: But you finished.

670
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 2: We're getting close to the end, but it feels like we're.

671
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 1: No.

672
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:11,919
Speaker 2: So we're gonna hopefully premiere a festival early next year

673
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:13,200
Speaker 2: and then take it from there.

674
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:16,800
Speaker 1: So when this is over, when you're done with Carlos, goone,

675
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 1: guys getting stuffed in boxes, Russian assassinations. I'm assuming the

676
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:24,160
Speaker 1: project you're doing next is something like the History of Candy.

677
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 2: That would be lovely.

678
00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:34,840
Speaker 1: My thanks to documentary filmmaker James Jones. This episode was

679
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:39,080
Speaker 1: recorded at CDM Studios in New York City. We're produced

680
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 1: by Kathleen Russo, Zach MacNeice, and Maureen Hobin. Our engineer

681
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:46,960
Speaker 1: is Frank Imperial. Our social media manager is Daniel Gingrich.

682
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing is brought to you

683
00:36:49,640 --> 00:37:00,719
Speaker 1: by iHeart Radio b