1 00:00:01,600 --> 00:00:05,600 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome back to Drilled. I'm Amy Westervelt. We 2 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 1: are bringing you today another one in our Drilling Deep 3 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: series from Adam Lewinstein, where Adam talks to authors of 4 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 1: interesting new books on climate, or politics, or the combination thereof. 5 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:26,840 Speaker 1: Today a conversation with Karen Elliott House, author of the 6 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 1: new book The Man Who Would Be King Mohammed Bin 7 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:35,559 Speaker 1: Salman and the Transformation of Saudi Arabia. Of course, Saudi Arabia, 8 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 1: as Americans are being reminded these days, is not the 9 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:44,919 Speaker 1: only increasingly authoritarian nation reliant on oil extraction, determined to 10 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:50,560 Speaker 1: disrupt global climate negotiations, or obsessed with energy ravenous Ai. 11 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 1: But as Pulitzer Prize winning reporter and former Wall Street 12 00:00:55,480 --> 00:01:00,319 Speaker 1: Journal publisher House makes clear, it is a crucial one. 13 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 1: House has been traveling to Saudi Arabia for more than 14 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:07,520 Speaker 1: four decades and has borne witnessed both its power and 15 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:12,200 Speaker 1: its contradictions. She spent hours interviewing the Crown Prince and 16 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 1: other Saudi officials for this book. But House also has 17 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:20,959 Speaker 1: quote a number of personal friends who have literally disappeared 18 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:27,959 Speaker 1: without any official explanation. She writes in June, Adam Lowenstein 19 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:31,319 Speaker 1: spoke with House about how Saudi Arabia has changed under 20 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:35,759 Speaker 1: the Crown Prince, whether MBS is gamble on economic and 21 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 1: social freedoms alongside civil and political repression, is politically or 22 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:47,199 Speaker 1: environmentally sustainable, how Saudi Arabia's oil and petrochemical industries serve 23 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 1: its geopolitical interests, and why the kingdom's promises about transitioning 24 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 1: away from fossil fuels might be a bit less green 25 00:01:56,720 --> 00:02:01,639 Speaker 1: than climate advocates would hope. Conversation is coming up after 26 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:02,559 Speaker 1: this quick break. 27 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:06,360 Speaker 2: So you've been I learned in the book you've been 28 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:09,960 Speaker 2: going to Saudi Arabia for more than four decades, and 29 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:14,080 Speaker 2: I'm curious what originally piqued your interest about the kingdom. 30 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 3: The first time I went was in May of nineteen 31 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 3: seventy eight, and Saddad had been to Jerusalem in November 32 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:30,079 Speaker 3: of seventy seven, So the Middle East was a big issue, 33 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 3: and the foreign editor of the Wall Street Journal told me, 34 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 3: go see these places you're going to write about. So 35 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:42,959 Speaker 3: I went to Israel, Jordan, Egypt, Syria and Saudi Arabia, 36 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:48,639 Speaker 3: and Saudi Arabia then was a more normal country than 37 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:52,079 Speaker 3: it was for most of that forty years. When I arrived, 38 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 3: I was taken to the oil Minister's house for what 39 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 3: I hoped was an interview. It turned out to be 40 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:03,959 Speaker 3: a dinner party, and so there were women all dressed 41 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:11,080 Speaker 3: and bejeweled and alcohol, and we watched the World Cup 42 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 3: soccer final on you know, satellite TV. It was a 43 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:19,639 Speaker 3: very It was the kind of event that the religious 44 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 3: police deplored. And shortly thereafter after the attack on the mccamosque, 45 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 3: of course, that kind of thing disappeared in Saudi Arabia 46 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 3: and men and women were segregated and all of the 47 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 3: stuff that you know that people know for most of 48 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 3: the last forty years, until King Settleman and his son 49 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 3: took over and took the religious police off the street. 50 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 3: Let women drive, let women work, are trying to modernize 51 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 3: and change the economy and the culture. 52 00:03:56,720 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 2: One of the things I've struggled to parse in terms 53 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 2: of what's real and what is hype, what is marketing, 54 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 2: is the scale of the transformation in Saudi Arabia over 55 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 2: the last decade. And there's been a lot of talk 56 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:16,679 Speaker 2: about some of the efforts to allow women to drive, 57 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:21,119 Speaker 2: to increase the availability of entertainment, to scale back the 58 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 2: presence of the religious police. But there's also kind of 59 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:29,359 Speaker 2: a relentless fire hose of promotion, in part from a 60 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 2: lot of wealthy, self interested Western investors who would like 61 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 2: to do business with the kingdom. And so I had 62 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:39,039 Speaker 2: a hard time understanding what is real and what is not. 63 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:43,480 Speaker 2: But one of the main arguments of your book is that, 64 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 2: at least in terms of social and economic freedom, this 65 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 2: transition is real and legit and consequential. Can you talk 66 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:54,799 Speaker 2: about that a little bit? Just how much the country 67 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 2: has changed over let's say the last decade or so. 68 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:04,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think as I try to what interested me 69 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:09,360 Speaker 3: is how where did Mohammed ben Salmon, who's now thirty 70 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:14,480 Speaker 3: nine and was roughly twenty nine when he began changing 71 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 3: the kingdom? Where did he get these ideas? Because most 72 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:24,360 Speaker 3: Saudis he grew up in the very conservative, heavy handed religion, 73 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:29,159 Speaker 3: and that's apparently partly what motivates him to change that. 74 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 3: He was a young kid who you know, the only 75 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:35,840 Speaker 3: thing he could do was play video games because there 76 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:41,039 Speaker 3: was no other entertainment, which is true, there was nothing 77 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:44,440 Speaker 3: really except kids could kick a soccer ball around in 78 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:49,600 Speaker 3: a field of garbage here and there in town he has. 79 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:53,360 Speaker 3: He is motivated. He understands that they can't live off 80 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 3: of oil revenue forever and that people have to be 81 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:05,479 Speaker 3: motivated and educated to work. So he is determined to 82 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:10,279 Speaker 3: bring more resources into the world of work. And women 83 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:15,280 Speaker 3: are a major educated resource, and they're much more motivated 84 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 3: than most men because they haven't had the opportunity to 85 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:23,160 Speaker 3: do anything other really than to teach school. There are 86 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 3: a few doctors here and there, but the only career 87 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 3: that was sanctioned for women really was breeding children or 88 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:38,040 Speaker 3: teaching children. And he is not He has obviously set 89 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:44,279 Speaker 3: back political freedom. In the days when I went there 90 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:49,640 Speaker 3: under King Fahd, under King Abdullah, you weren't ever supposed 91 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 3: to criticize the king. But in the newspapers, you know, 92 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:58,040 Speaker 3: you could read the health ministry failed at this, the 93 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:02,680 Speaker 3: defense ministry failed that. I mean, you know, mild criticism, 94 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 3: and you didn't wind up in in prison. And I think, 95 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 3: you know, he feels that I'm doing these things fast. 96 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 3: I can't. I don't have time to have everybody telling 97 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 3: me how to do it and getting in the way. 98 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 3: So and I think, you know, he thinks he he 99 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 3: thinks he knows what to do. His whole philosophy is 100 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 3: that what's wrong with the world is incremental thinking. You 101 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 3: have to have out of the box thinking, and that 102 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 3: that's something. As you noticed in the last chapter of 103 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 3: the book leak On, you also had that the Singaporean 104 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 3: Prime Minister had that view that I'm in charge here. 105 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 3: I know I've got to drive you hard to get 106 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 3: you where you ought to be. But the changes are 107 00:07:56,480 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 3: truly significant. This country is still conservative, so you still 108 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 3: see most women wearing a bias, but you don't have to. 109 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:09,840 Speaker 3: The last time I saw the Crown Prince, he said 110 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 3: to me, I was still wearing my black abiah when 111 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 3: I walked into his office, and he said, you don't 112 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 3: have to wear that, and I said, I know, and 113 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 3: sat down and started asking questions. But I think back 114 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 3: to your point about how much marketing hype there is. 115 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 3: The Crown Prince himself is a marketer. That was my 116 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 3: impression of him in our first meeting. He is, and 117 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 3: I don't mean in a kind of cheap hypey way, 118 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:45,680 Speaker 3: but he is self confident and he is charismatic, and 119 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 3: he is out to convince you that, you know, here's 120 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:55,080 Speaker 3: the way things are going to be, and here's what 121 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 3: I'm doing to get them there. I mean, he's he 122 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 3: likes to sell and he's quite effective at it, I think. Plus, 123 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 3: they have all this money and they hire everybody in 124 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:11,520 Speaker 3: the world to tout what's going on in the kingdom. 125 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 3: Like Lionel Messi, the soccer player. They tried to hire 126 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 3: him for their soccer club. He said no, but they 127 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 3: pay him twenty five thousand dollars a year to promote 128 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 3: their attempts to get the World Cup, which they did, 129 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 3: and to promote the country's tourism business. 130 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 2: One of the things I found most remarkable in the 131 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 2: book was the fact that most Saudis had not even 132 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:43,560 Speaker 2: heard of MBS as recently as I think twenty fifteen 133 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 2: and a decade later. You describe him as having pretty 134 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:51,720 Speaker 2: much total control over the government over the country. He 135 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 2: chairs the Public Investment Fund. You know he's hiring Saudi Aramco. 136 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:00,320 Speaker 2: Can you talk about how he has managed to There's 137 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:04,439 Speaker 2: obviously lots of internal machinations in internal politics, which you 138 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 2: describe in detail in the book, But from a I 139 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:12,600 Speaker 2: guess maintaining the consent of the governed perspective, how's he 140 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:16,200 Speaker 2: maintained that that kind of absolute power over so many 141 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 2: aspects of the country in such a short time. 142 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:26,560 Speaker 3: I think essentially in at least two ways. One, most 143 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:30,600 Speaker 3: of the sixty percent of the country is under thirty 144 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:34,680 Speaker 3: years of age, so they want change, most of them, 145 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 3: not all of them. Some of them are conservative, but 146 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 3: most want change. So he has offered them entertainment and jobs. 147 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 3: And for those who are less enamored, he's offered strong 148 00:10:54,040 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 3: political suppression. Well, he, as you know, put the most 149 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 3: of the senior royals in the ritz Carlton along with 150 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 3: prominent business people, forced them to pay what he said 151 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:17,960 Speaker 3: was ill gotten gain, and it probably was. The country 152 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 3: was a very corrupt country in under Abdullah. Most people 153 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 3: said that up to thirty percent of the budget was 154 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 3: just taken, you know, on this and that project. So 155 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 3: he tried to intimidate the royals, remove the religious police 156 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 3: from the streets, and the religious scholars who didn't agree, 157 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 3: some of them found themselves also in prison. And then 158 00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:02,320 Speaker 3: the old Saudi way of buying people to keep people happy. 159 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 3: The religious police are still paid, they're just not allowed 160 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:09,480 Speaker 3: to go out on the street and arrest anyone. So 161 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 3: with a combination of intimidation and entertainment for the young 162 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 3: and his father obviously agrees with these things, or at 163 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:26,680 Speaker 3: the beginning. I don't know how active is or alert 164 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 3: his father is now. But when he first became king, 165 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:36,120 Speaker 3: he obviously supported MBS, and that was a big part 166 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 3: of his ability to consolidate control. And his father got 167 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:45,719 Speaker 3: rid of the first crown prince and put in a 168 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 3: second one, and then got rid of that crown prince 169 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 3: and put in his son, Mohammed. So his father has 170 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:59,320 Speaker 3: been instrumental in helping him consolidate power. But he has 171 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 3: the reputation of willingness to use whatever means is necessary 172 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:11,479 Speaker 3: to get and retain control so that he can reform 173 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 3: and transform the country in the way he believes it 174 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 3: ought to go. But he he he uh is the emphasis. 175 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, you mentioned leak One, you the former strong man 176 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:32,720 Speaker 2: leader of Singapore, and he you compare MBS to him 177 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:35,719 Speaker 2: a few times in the book. It was interesting. It's 178 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:41,840 Speaker 2: interesting because leak One you beloved by in particular Western 179 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:46,040 Speaker 2: executives and investors and business leaders who prize above all 180 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 2: else the freedom, the free flow of financial capital, and stability. 181 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:55,080 Speaker 2: One way to preserve stability within a society is through 182 00:13:55,800 --> 00:14:02,320 Speaker 2: autocracy and not permitting any democratic processes, any political process stifling, 183 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:05,600 Speaker 2: you know, all kinds of political activity and criticism and dissent. 184 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 2: And you point out throughout the book that even as 185 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 2: these social and economic freedoms have genuinely increased within Saudi Arabia, 186 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:17,600 Speaker 2: the political climate has gotten even more repressive. In your 187 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 2: travels there, because this is something I've written about. Lots 188 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 2: of Western journalists have reported on this, lots of human 189 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 2: rights groups doing really important work in terms of covering 190 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 2: political repression within Saudi Arabia. What is the political climate 191 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 2: within the country itself, among the people of Saudi Arabia. 192 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 3: You know, fundamentally, there's no history in Saudi Arabia of 193 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 3: people having any control of their lives. I mean mostly 194 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 3: these were Bedouin tribes and the chief was in charge, 195 00:14:55,720 --> 00:15:02,360 Speaker 3: and the social contract was keep me from starving and 196 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 3: I give you my loyalty. And that's been the social 197 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 3: contract with the Alsaoud for the three hundred roughly years 198 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 3: that they've been in charge of Saudi Arabia. So people 199 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 3: want they want government where they can count on a 200 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 3: decent life. They don't want to, you know, an enormous 201 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 3: amount of corruption. I mean, when I wrote my first book, 202 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 3: Saudi's were so upset with the royal family taking so 203 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:43,480 Speaker 3: much of everything that people used to steal the sheets 204 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 3: off their hospital bed on the theory that if the 205 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 3: Royals can steal, so can I you know, just frustration 206 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 3: at the fact that they felt it was an unfair system. 207 00:15:56,560 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 3: They don't purport to know how to lead or want 208 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 3: to or want to vote on somebody. They just want 209 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 3: government that's not that's transparent and accountable. So I think 210 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 3: he has tried to provide more of that, the transparency, 211 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 3: having key performance indicators for all the ministers and tracking 212 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:27,240 Speaker 3: them and publishing here's what we're trying to do, here's 213 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 3: what we've done, Here's what we haven't done. I mean, 214 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 3: he's he's not afraid of the report card, but you know, 215 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 3: he is the he is the superintendent, the principal, and 216 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 3: the star pupil, mister everything people call him because they 217 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 3: you know, he did kind of come from nowhere. I mean, 218 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:54,360 Speaker 3: he was the sixth son of his father, so he 219 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 3: shouldn't have amounted to anything in a hierarchical society, and 220 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 3: Saudi's were kind of where did he come from? Because 221 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 3: he had he had government jobs, but they weren't prominent ones, 222 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:12,200 Speaker 3: so people didn't know much about him, and then suddenly 223 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:17,880 Speaker 3: he's reshaping the government and he's the deputy of Crown Prince, 224 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 3: and then he's the Crown Prance, and then he's in charge, 225 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 3: as you said, of the Public Investment Fund a RAMCO, 226 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:31,920 Speaker 3: everything in the country, every entity in essence reports to him. 227 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:39,720 Speaker 2: You mentioned KPIs. I get the impression that NBS personally 228 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 2: is quite interested in the prestige and the reputation of 229 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:48,200 Speaker 2: firms like McKenzie, who played a big role in Vision 230 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 2: twenty thirty, and lots of other Western consulting firms. I've 231 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:54,399 Speaker 2: written a lot about the some of the Western pr 232 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:58,920 Speaker 2: firms in public affairs and lobbying shops that have secured 233 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:03,880 Speaker 2: some quite new gritive contracts with the PIFF and ARAMCO 234 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 2: and other parts of the Saudi government. You make a 235 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 2: few references throughout the book to the role of foreign 236 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:13,120 Speaker 2: consultants in the country, and I'm wondering if you could 237 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:16,959 Speaker 2: just talk a little bit about how and why, I 238 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:21,720 Speaker 2: guess these Western firms are so involved in so involved 239 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 2: in the government of Saudi Arabia under Mohammed ben Solman. 240 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:30,400 Speaker 3: You know, as you've already said, the Western firms all 241 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:34,360 Speaker 3: see Saudi Arabia as a place they can make money. 242 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:38,640 Speaker 3: That he's trying to modernize. So you know, I'll get 243 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 3: in there. I've got ideas, and he is happy to hire. 244 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 3: I mean, his whole philosophy, as I say in the book, 245 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:52,400 Speaker 3: is it's better to attempt a hundred things and succeed 246 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 3: at fifty than attempt five and succeed at four. You 247 00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:02,720 Speaker 3: know that trying to change everything is a good idea. 248 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 3: And so because of that, you know, he has a 249 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 3: reason to hire uncteen advisors consulting firms to advise on this, 250 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:18,719 Speaker 3: that and the other. I mean, the the line the 251 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:22,360 Speaker 3: big city that they're building or planning. 252 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 2: To build, right, important distinction. 253 00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 3: It's not yes, it's not there yet. You know. They 254 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:35,440 Speaker 3: they hired I guess five different architectural firms, not one, 255 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 3: and then they kind of put them all together, and 256 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:43,479 Speaker 3: you know, you let the architects debate each other, and 257 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:49,680 Speaker 3: then Mohammed debates with them, and then that's the that's 258 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:56,080 Speaker 3: the end of the the debate. I mean, he he decides. 259 00:19:56,119 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 3: As somebody used to say or said to me, we 260 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 3: used to debate and never decide. Now we decide and 261 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 3: never debate, which is a kind of interesting, succinct summary. 262 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 3: But all those firms are there to make money in 263 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:19,200 Speaker 3: because he's trying to do literally mouths thousand, let a 264 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 3: thousand flowers bloom. He's trying to let a thousand projects bloom. 265 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 3: So you know they're all rushing in to get a 266 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:31,120 Speaker 3: piece of the money. I'm sure that you know much 267 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 3: of what they do is overcharge and underperform. But I mean, 268 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 3: the only one of these I've ever read was the 269 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 3: McKenzie Vision twenty thirty document, so, and I guess a 270 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 3: lot of that. The things proposed are really in the 271 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:55,360 Speaker 3: many five year plans that the country had from nineteen 272 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 3: seventy on. But they produced a plan every five years 273 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 3: and put it on the shelf. Very little of it 274 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:07,200 Speaker 3: ever got done. So probably McKenzie went back and read 275 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:10,720 Speaker 3: all the five year plans. I don't know, but that 276 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:13,439 Speaker 3: would be a good place to start, just to know 277 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 3: what's been proposed before. I don't know that they did 278 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 3: or didn't, but I know that the five year plans 279 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 3: mostly were put on the shelf and not execute it. 280 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:31,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, you mentioned in the book the succession of five 281 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 2: year plans for transitioning the Kingdom away from relying so 282 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 2: much on oil, and how those five year plans you know, 283 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:43,119 Speaker 2: like you said, have been published time and time again 284 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 2: and never nothing has fundamentally changed. I think a lot 285 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 2: of people hear about obviously, we hear about the climate crisis. 286 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:53,400 Speaker 2: We hear about ARAMCO in Saudi Arabia playing a role 287 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:58,119 Speaker 2: in global climate negotiations as kind of a baseline for 288 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:00,200 Speaker 2: where we are right now. Can you talk about where 289 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:03,119 Speaker 2: here in twenty twenty five, where the kingdom is at 290 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:06,840 Speaker 2: in its reliance on oil and the scale at this 291 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:10,160 Speaker 2: point of that reliance, and I guess where they are 292 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 2: in the transition that has been talked about, as you mentioned, 293 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:17,480 Speaker 2: for many, many iterations of five year plans and is 294 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 2: obviously a big part of Vision twenty thirty. And what 295 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:23,200 Speaker 2: you hear from NBS and other government officials today. 296 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 3: Well, obviously oil is still the major source of revenue. 297 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 3: It used to be about seventy eighty percent of the 298 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 3: budget revenue, forty percent of the GDP of the country. 299 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:46,399 Speaker 3: The goal is to get non oil to sixty I 300 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:50,760 Speaker 3: think sixty five percent of GDP, but right now it's 301 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:59,680 Speaker 3: only they haven't made that much progress yet, but they are, 302 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:05,399 Speaker 3: and I believe sincerely they are trying to do a 303 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:12,959 Speaker 3: develop renewable energy because the Saudis are the most profligate 304 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:16,879 Speaker 3: energy users in the world. They use like three point 305 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 3: seven million barrels a day for twenty million, thirty million people, 306 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:28,240 Speaker 3: and they use much more than anybody except China and 307 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:34,560 Speaker 3: the US, who have vastly, vastly greater populations. So they 308 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:38,160 Speaker 3: want to have renewable energy so that they can keep 309 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:43,240 Speaker 3: some of the fossil fuels to sell to the world, 310 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:47,840 Speaker 3: because their oil is the cheapest in the world to produce, 311 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:51,879 Speaker 3: so when it's I think it's roughly three dollars a 312 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:55,240 Speaker 3: barrel is my recollection. So when it's selling at eighty, 313 00:23:55,760 --> 00:24:00,760 Speaker 3: I mean, that's that's huge profit. So they don't want 314 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:06,919 Speaker 3: to run out of the ability to have oil to sell. Secondly, 315 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:13,160 Speaker 3: they're in a climate that is incredibly hot, so they 316 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 3: already have according to a rand study and one by 317 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:21,520 Speaker 3: their own King Abdullah University of Science and Technology, they 318 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:27,320 Speaker 3: have ninety five days a year that are the temperatures 319 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:33,120 Speaker 3: above one hundred. So it's hard to develop tourism when 320 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 3: you have such excessively hot days, and tourism is one 321 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:44,240 Speaker 3: of the industries they're trying to grow, and according to Rand, 322 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 3: there are going to be one hundred and eighty days 323 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:55,120 Speaker 3: over ninety five degrees by twenty thirty, so they do 324 00:24:55,320 --> 00:25:01,119 Speaker 3: need to do what they can to try to keep down. 325 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:06,440 Speaker 3: Nothing they're doing is going to meet the Paris Accords. 326 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:10,720 Speaker 3: Don't have more than one point five degrees celsius rise. 327 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 3: I mean, China's running that various others. But they do 328 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:22,199 Speaker 3: have an incentive, I think to produce as much renewable 329 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 3: energy as they can, both to reduce the greenhouse gases 330 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 3: they produce and to have oil that is replaced by 331 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:38,359 Speaker 3: sun and wind so they can sell it for more money. 332 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,200 Speaker 3: So they're producing, as I said in the book, they're 333 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 3: putting a chip on every possible option for energy production 334 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:58,320 Speaker 3: green energy, solar, wind, and the two are not mutually incompatible. 335 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:00,960 Speaker 3: I mean, the State of text is one of the 336 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:06,639 Speaker 3: few places that has managed to reduce the role of 337 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 3: oil and its GDP, so it is still America's largest 338 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 3: energy producer and also America's largest the state producer of 339 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 3: renewable energy. And I think that's exactly you know what 340 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 3: MBS's goal is is we want to be a big 341 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:34,160 Speaker 3: producer of renewable energy, and we want to and we can. 342 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 3: We need it, we use it, and we can try 343 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 3: to sell it. And we also want to be a 344 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:43,639 Speaker 3: major producer of oil and gas because the world is 345 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:49,119 Speaker 3: going to need it far beyond twenty thirty forty fifty, 346 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 3: so that they have more time, they believe, to get 347 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 3: the economy off oil, but they need to keep the 348 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 3: ideally keep the country from being seen as too hot 349 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 3: to visit. 350 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:07,080 Speaker 2: At one point in the book, you describe them as 351 00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:11,159 Speaker 2: trying to be or striving to be the last oil 352 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:16,400 Speaker 2: producer standing. And I'm wondering, is it a fair assertion 353 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 2: to say that they're trying to do two things simultaneously. 354 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:23,920 Speaker 2: One is reduce their own reliance on oil, while at 355 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:27,120 Speaker 2: the same time doing what they can to preserve global 356 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 2: demand for oil as long as possible. 357 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's I would say that's fair. They want to 358 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 3: reduce their own demand for oil so they can yes 359 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:44,520 Speaker 3: have it to sell to the world. As you recall 360 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:50,760 Speaker 3: in the book, Prince Abdelaziz, the energy minister, says, we 361 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:54,639 Speaker 3: have to not write off the Third world. We can't 362 00:27:54,720 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 3: be so pure and holy about our air climate change 363 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:04,960 Speaker 3: that we in essence say the rest of the seven 364 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:11,360 Speaker 3: hundred million people who still burn sticks for heat, that's 365 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:13,399 Speaker 3: the only heat they can have. They're not going to 366 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 3: be able to have oil because they deserve a chance 367 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:23,679 Speaker 3: to develop and burning oil is less abusive, he says, 368 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:28,800 Speaker 3: to the atmosphere than you know, burning wood. I'm not 369 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:32,240 Speaker 3: an expert on that, but you know, he's very big 370 00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 3: on the idea that you can't tell most of the 371 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 3: world they have to stop their development right where they 372 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:44,040 Speaker 3: are because we elite Western nations don't want any more 373 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:49,080 Speaker 3: greenhouse gases released. So, I mean, it's a it's a 374 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:53,960 Speaker 3: point that Dan Jurgen makes too, the energy Guru. 375 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:56,959 Speaker 2: One thing that you talk about in the book is 376 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,760 Speaker 2: the some of the consequences geopolitically, but also for the 377 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:05,200 Speaker 2: purposes of this conversation from an energy and climate perspective 378 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 2: of Saudi Arabia's growing relationship with China, particularly in petrochemicals, 379 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:16,680 Speaker 2: and you write at one point that Aramco believes the 380 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 2: market for turning oil into chemicals will last beyond the 381 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 2: uses of oil for gasoline. I think the oil for 382 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 2: gasoline is what we often think of as the source 383 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:29,520 Speaker 2: of the climate crisis, at least from a day to 384 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 2: day individual perspective, But what does it mean for this 385 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:40,440 Speaker 2: growing investment in petrochemicals, and particularly between two countries Saudi 386 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:44,920 Speaker 2: Arabia and China that are huge users and consumers of energy. 387 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:50,280 Speaker 3: Saudi Arabia I think is determined. They have a distrust 388 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:56,160 Speaker 3: of the United States from at least the Obama administration forward. 389 00:29:56,280 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 3: But even with George w they told told him not 390 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 3: to go into it rock and he did so. They 391 00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 3: they're nervous, and Mohammed Ben Salman wants to be a 392 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 3: big man on the world stage, so he has to 393 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 3: deal with Russia to control global energy prices. He deals 394 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 3: with China because China is the biggest buyer of oil 395 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:30,320 Speaker 3: and Saudi oil as well as the Iranian oil that 396 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:36,160 Speaker 3: they're buying at cut rate prices. So I think, you know, 397 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 3: he he wants a relationship with China. So investing in 398 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 3: China and having China invest in Saudi is something that 399 00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:54,080 Speaker 3: I think he sees as a good geopolitical investment. I 400 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:58,360 Speaker 3: don't know if it's a good energy investment. I mean, 401 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 3: it's kind of beyond my paygrade to argue on that, 402 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:07,040 Speaker 3: but I mean the Chinese are doing all kinds of 403 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:13,040 Speaker 3: work in Saudi Arabia, and the Saudis seem to just 404 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:18,600 Speaker 3: be investing money in, you know, in petrochemical plants there. 405 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:22,800 Speaker 3: I don't think the Saudis actually need China for petrochemicals. 406 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 3: They've got their own, so I think personally, I think 407 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:32,640 Speaker 3: it's more of a political investment than an energy investment. 408 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:38,240 Speaker 3: And the Crown Prince, as you may know, has mandated 409 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 3: teaching Chinese in addition to English in Saudi schools, and 410 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 3: I'm told that his own children study Chinese, so you know, 411 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:52,320 Speaker 3: he's got he's got something invested in that, I think 412 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:55,840 Speaker 3: the Chinese. But the Chinese and the Saudis have a 413 00:31:56,160 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 3: compatibility because the Chinese resident is an autocrat and he 414 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:09,720 Speaker 3: sees himself as the head of a great civilization. NBA 415 00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:14,000 Speaker 3: sees himself as the head of a great civilization Islam. 416 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,240 Speaker 3: They both feel that the US is trying to tell 417 00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:20,600 Speaker 3: them all the time that human rights are universal and 418 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:26,840 Speaker 3: they don't buy it. And they also believe that the 419 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 3: repression of your people politically is the right thing to 420 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:37,000 Speaker 3: do to hold the society together, to have the unity. 421 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:41,760 Speaker 3: So I mean, I think they have a lot of 422 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:46,480 Speaker 3: compatibility that you wouldn't normally think of between a young 423 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:51,720 Speaker 3: man and an old man, and a religious or Islamic 424 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:56,520 Speaker 3: government and an atheistic government. But I think they I 425 00:32:56,520 --> 00:33:03,480 Speaker 3: think they're quite compatible, and they're look on individualism is bad. 426 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 3: It's the health of the group, the unity that should 427 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:10,800 Speaker 3: be paramount. 428 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:14,280 Speaker 2: I wanted to ask you about Jamal kas Showgi because 429 00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:17,200 Speaker 2: you knew him pretty well, right, or at least you'd 430 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:19,840 Speaker 2: met with him a number of times over the years. 431 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 2: I'm just wondering just from a kind of an individual perspective. 432 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:25,520 Speaker 2: You also mentioned in the book that you've gotten to 433 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:29,600 Speaker 2: know a number of other Saudis who have been imprisoned. 434 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:33,520 Speaker 2: Some of them are still imprisoned for criticism or alleged 435 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:36,240 Speaker 2: criticism of the government or I think you describe it 436 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:39,040 Speaker 2: as threatening national security, being one of the kind of 437 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:44,600 Speaker 2: catch all allegations against critics. So yeah, I just wondered 438 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:46,640 Speaker 2: if you could talk a little bit about your relationship 439 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:48,040 Speaker 2: with Jamalka Shogi. 440 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:53,000 Speaker 3: And under King Abdullah, he was a journalist in various 441 00:33:54,080 --> 00:34:03,120 Speaker 3: newspapers and interviewed Osama bin Lad but King Abdullah's government 442 00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:07,960 Speaker 3: seemed to use him to, you know, for foreigners like 443 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:10,400 Speaker 3: me to talk to, you know, if you want to 444 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 3: talk about society and Saudi Arabia. So you know, I 445 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:20,160 Speaker 3: had dinner with him in Jed a couple of times, 446 00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:25,640 Speaker 3: once with his wife, and you know, saw him in 447 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:32,280 Speaker 3: Riod also, you know, and saw he worked for Prince 448 00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:37,080 Speaker 3: Al Walid bin ta Laal, the rich Saudi prince that 449 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:42,640 Speaker 3: is investor in a lot of American companies, and they 450 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:47,320 Speaker 3: were trying to start a new TV channel in the 451 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:52,919 Speaker 3: Middle East, which began right after King salt Mine came 452 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:57,240 Speaker 3: to power and it was shut down immediately. But anyway, 453 00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:02,480 Speaker 3: the last time I saw him, uh, we had lunch 454 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:06,799 Speaker 3: in the Ozama Hotel in Riod, which has since been 455 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:14,080 Speaker 3: torn down. But you know, he never said anything in 456 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:17,759 Speaker 3: my recollection of the twenty years I knew him. He 457 00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:24,520 Speaker 3: didn't criticize the royal family, but he was he was 458 00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 3: confident enough to explain things in a you know, not 459 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:32,920 Speaker 3: a tentative way, a confident way, and he did not 460 00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:35,800 Speaker 3: criticize the Crown Prince. In that last lunch he was 461 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:41,280 Speaker 3: he expressed his unhappiness that he was not being allowed 462 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:46,080 Speaker 3: to write anymore, and he said, I would prefer to 463 00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:52,560 Speaker 3: have democracy, but at least we have KPI's key performance 464 00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:58,040 Speaker 3: indicators for accountability that he would prefer the ballot for accountability, 465 00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:01,120 Speaker 3: but at least there was some account of ability. I mean, 466 00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:05,840 Speaker 3: he had a good sense of humor, as illustrated by that. 467 00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:10,160 Speaker 3: And then he left not too long there after to 468 00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:14,640 Speaker 3: come to the United States and became a columnist. And 469 00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:18,360 Speaker 3: I never saw him again when he was in the US. 470 00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:20,600 Speaker 3: I mean I would see him on TV from time 471 00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:23,960 Speaker 3: to time, but so yeah, it was for me a 472 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:29,920 Speaker 3: big shock when you see him after the death walking 473 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:37,920 Speaker 3: into the Saudi consulate in Istanbul along the film and 474 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:43,400 Speaker 3: not walking out. I mean, it still seems to me 475 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:52,440 Speaker 3: such a stupid thing. But you know our view. I 476 00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:57,000 Speaker 3: have never had power like Mohammed benzel Mine, so who 477 00:36:57,120 --> 00:36:59,640 Speaker 3: knows how I would use it, but I don't believe 478 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:05,320 Speaker 3: I would have done that. And as I said in 479 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,839 Speaker 3: the book, the only genuine human rights activist I ever 480 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:14,640 Speaker 3: knew was Mohammed Katani, who worked for the government, and 481 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:19,680 Speaker 3: he was determined to change Saudi Arabia through its own law. 482 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:26,600 Speaker 3: So he wasn't somebody calling for protests, etc. He planned 483 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:31,480 Speaker 3: to do it legally, but he criticized. He asked the 484 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:37,600 Speaker 3: king to remove his half brother the Interior minister, and 485 00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:42,719 Speaker 3: that was considered criticism near treason, and he was put 486 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:46,080 Speaker 3: in prison for ten years, and then when he was 487 00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:51,040 Speaker 3: supposed to get out, he quote disappeared. But I was 488 00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:54,359 Speaker 3: told that was in the fall of twenty twenty three. 489 00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:57,560 Speaker 3: I was told in March this year when I was there, 490 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:05,160 Speaker 3: that he is now and is at his apartment in Riod, 491 00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:11,200 Speaker 3: not saying anything. So I believe that is probably true, 492 00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:14,640 Speaker 3: but I have not been able to personally test it. 493 00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:19,880 Speaker 3: And the other one was my translator for the first book. 494 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:24,960 Speaker 3: We worked together for five years, nearly six years. He 495 00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:29,480 Speaker 3: was also working for the government, and I do have 496 00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:34,239 Speaker 3: no idea what happened to him. Nobody professes to know. 497 00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:38,759 Speaker 3: I have been unable. We kept in touch with each other, 498 00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:42,640 Speaker 3: and then in the fall of twenty twenty one, when 499 00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:45,160 Speaker 3: I tried to reach him on whats app, I never 500 00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:47,960 Speaker 3: got an answer, and I never got an answer since. 501 00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:53,280 Speaker 3: And this year when I tried again, as I do routinely, 502 00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:57,560 Speaker 3: on that number, a man answered me and said, this 503 00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:02,799 Speaker 3: is I am not Abdulahamri. This is my number. I've 504 00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:07,239 Speaker 3: had it for six months. So I don't know what 505 00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:12,400 Speaker 3: happened to Abdullah, And I still hope to learn, because 506 00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:18,040 Speaker 3: he was definitely not a political activist, so I have 507 00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:22,800 Speaker 3: no idea. And he had a family and you know, children, 508 00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:29,640 Speaker 3: and he was a religious man, you know, and understood 509 00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:35,320 Speaker 3: the system well. So I can't believe he did anything 510 00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:39,120 Speaker 3: that would have gotten him in trouble because I never 511 00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:43,279 Speaker 3: heard him, and you know, ten years of dealing with him, 512 00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:51,920 Speaker 3: say anything critical about any of the royal family. So 513 00:39:53,800 --> 00:40:01,400 Speaker 3: but that part is sad to see people disappear. 514 00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:08,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was struck in the book by the extent 515 00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:13,399 Speaker 2: to which MBS seems to be really focused on how 516 00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:17,240 Speaker 2: he and the kingdom more broadly, but he in particular 517 00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:20,719 Speaker 2: is perceived. And I wondered if you thought that there 518 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:26,960 Speaker 2: was a that might explain some of the willingness to, 519 00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:30,840 Speaker 2: you know, to lock up people who like a Twitter 520 00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:35,040 Speaker 2: user who has nine followers, you know, these people who 521 00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:40,240 Speaker 2: pose clearly pose no threat to the regime or to NBS. 522 00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:44,960 Speaker 2: But this combination of spending so much money on consultants 523 00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:48,600 Speaker 2: and pr gurus to create a certain image of the 524 00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:52,960 Speaker 2: kingdom internally but also externally to investors in companies and 525 00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:59,640 Speaker 2: potentially tourists, and also policing the speech so aggressively, particularly online, 526 00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:03,239 Speaker 2: which is where perceptions are often created these days. And 527 00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:06,879 Speaker 2: I'm just wondering if you see a link between those 528 00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:09,840 Speaker 2: two and this kind of this almost obsessive focus on 529 00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:12,120 Speaker 2: how the kingdom is perceived. 530 00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:17,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think, you know, he clearly does have a 531 00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:24,560 Speaker 3: obsession with how he and the kingdom are perceived, because 532 00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:28,840 Speaker 3: I think it's like the old French line, what is it, 533 00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:36,360 Speaker 3: Todd sainmois, you know, the state? He is the state, 534 00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:42,520 Speaker 3: and so it is important that he be positively perceived 535 00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:47,160 Speaker 3: because that's, in essence, the only way the state can 536 00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:52,040 Speaker 3: be positively perceived in his mind. And I think it's true, 537 00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:56,400 Speaker 3: you know, I mean that the you can't separate in 538 00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:59,840 Speaker 3: a monarchy like that, the you know, we have a 539 00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:06,000 Speaker 3: great king, but the state stinks, or vice versa. You 540 00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:09,440 Speaker 3: know that the king stinks in the state is great. 541 00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:14,799 Speaker 3: So I think, yeah, that he has spent a lot 542 00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:20,279 Speaker 3: of money on consultants, et cetera. But my view is 543 00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:25,120 Speaker 3: that he believes himself to be more the vision, you know, 544 00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:32,160 Speaker 3: the need to project the country. He doesn't do a 545 00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:35,760 Speaker 3: lot of public speaking. I think he does see people, 546 00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:40,360 Speaker 3: you know, more the one on one influence, the opposite 547 00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:44,399 Speaker 3: of Donald Trump. He is not out talking all the time, 548 00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:49,000 Speaker 3: posting all the time, preening all the time. He is 549 00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:52,600 Speaker 3: more private in that sense. Some of the people who 550 00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:58,640 Speaker 3: work for him say he is shy. I don't see that, 551 00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:02,000 Speaker 3: but I mean, he doesn't seemed to like public speaking 552 00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:05,040 Speaker 3: a lot. He doesn't show up at the UN and 553 00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:09,960 Speaker 3: get speeches like Nata Yahoo or you know, Trump or 554 00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:15,279 Speaker 3: other people. So I think he you know, he was 555 00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:21,160 Speaker 3: obviously bothered by the the way the world treated him 556 00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:25,480 Speaker 3: right after the Kashogi event. And I still have this 557 00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:29,719 Speaker 3: picture that not only the high five with Putin, but 558 00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:33,960 Speaker 3: he stood there at the G twenty with his fish 559 00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:38,719 Speaker 3: wrapped around him and his arms folded, and the other 560 00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:45,160 Speaker 3: heads of state walked by him without saying anything. But 561 00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:51,000 Speaker 3: he stood there, and it's his view. I think also 562 00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:55,480 Speaker 3: is the best defense is a good offense. Don't disappear, 563 00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:59,680 Speaker 3: you know, hold your hold your ground, and it will 564 00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:04,200 Speaker 3: eventually get better. And you know, I think it has 565 00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:10,040 Speaker 3: that he You know, when Joe Biden came to Saudi 566 00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:13,240 Speaker 3: to ask for more oil, he just said no, given 567 00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:18,560 Speaker 3: the way by treated him. So you know, he he 568 00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:21,960 Speaker 3: has he has a strong I think he has a 569 00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:26,759 Speaker 3: strong sense of confidence about what he's trying to do, 570 00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:32,720 Speaker 3: and so he doesn't wilt and melt when he comes 571 00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:38,400 Speaker 3: under fire. I mean, I think any politician arm monarch 572 00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:41,600 Speaker 3: has to have a pretty strong sense of self confidence. 573 00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:45,680 Speaker 2: To hold up the idea that anyone could run a 574 00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:49,479 Speaker 2: country requires a certain level of ego that most people, 575 00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:54,640 Speaker 2: probably for good reason, don't. Don't have. You spent quite 576 00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:56,880 Speaker 2: a bit of time with him for this book, and 577 00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:00,520 Speaker 2: for you've interviewed him a number of times. Right, do 578 00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:02,799 Speaker 2: you think you will be invited to speak with him 579 00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:04,399 Speaker 2: again after this book comes out? 580 00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:09,480 Speaker 3: I have no idea. I mean, it was not written 581 00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:14,120 Speaker 3: to uh savage him, and it was not written to 582 00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:20,880 Speaker 3: save him. I've tried to be very analytical because I 583 00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:26,360 Speaker 3: think that he is so much better for the country 584 00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:32,400 Speaker 3: than another old man that he is. He's not the 585 00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:36,440 Speaker 3: perfect leader, but none of us have the perfect leader. 586 00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:41,160 Speaker 3: So I you know, if I had a vote between 587 00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:47,640 Speaker 3: him and his uncle Mugrin that his father fired, or 588 00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:52,560 Speaker 3: you know, or even Mohammed ben Nigh of his cousin, 589 00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:58,960 Speaker 3: Uh He's got much more dynamism and drive and determination 590 00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:04,880 Speaker 3: and courage than most Saudis do, and I think the 591 00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:10,560 Speaker 3: country needs a you know, a real kick forward. I 592 00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:14,200 Speaker 3: said in my first book that the risk to the 593 00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:16,759 Speaker 3: kingdom was it would go the way of the old 594 00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:24,319 Speaker 3: Soviet Union, with one old man after another Brezhnev Chernenko 595 00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:27,400 Speaker 3: and drop off. And but the time they got to 596 00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:32,399 Speaker 3: the next generation Gorbachev, it was too late. Or maybe 597 00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:36,040 Speaker 3: Gorbachev just wasn't smart enough. I don't know, but you 598 00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:40,080 Speaker 3: know in that the risk in Saudi Arabia was the 599 00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:45,719 Speaker 3: same Abdullah Sultan Naya Salmon, and you know that the 600 00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:52,279 Speaker 3: country was uh sclerotic and needed the arteries cleaned out. 601 00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:55,160 Speaker 3: And I said, they still have time, and they have 602 00:46:55,239 --> 00:46:59,719 Speaker 3: a lot of money for surgery and stints, but is 603 00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:06,080 Speaker 3: there a daring doctor who could perform the operation? And 604 00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:10,400 Speaker 3: I think MBS is as close to the daring doctor 605 00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:17,200 Speaker 3: as I've seen. I met Mohammed bin Naya for the 606 00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:21,640 Speaker 3: first book when he was running the rehabilitation of terrorists, 607 00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:26,719 Speaker 3: Saudi terrorists. I don't know anybody that's got the confidence 608 00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:30,680 Speaker 3: and drive. I've never met another Saudi with the confidence 609 00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:36,200 Speaker 3: and drive other than a man who's in prison now, 610 00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:43,239 Speaker 3: Salman auDA, who was one of the Awakening shakes in 611 00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:47,480 Speaker 3: the mid nineties and was put in prison by King 612 00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:51,800 Speaker 3: Faha then let out and under Abdullah became quite a 613 00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:57,239 Speaker 3: you know, had a weekly TV show and magazines and 614 00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:02,480 Speaker 3: you know, it was a media mog almost And he 615 00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:07,720 Speaker 3: I don't know what he did, but he is in prison. 616 00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:12,839 Speaker 3: The he believes from what his son says, that he's 617 00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:17,440 Speaker 3: there because he is accused of criticizing the government, the 618 00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:23,320 Speaker 3: Crown Prince for severing relations with Cutter. But anyway, he is. 619 00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:30,959 Speaker 3: He is a truly charismatic, confident man. Impressive I always thought, 620 00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:39,280 Speaker 3: and I uh, unabashedly say, I think MBS, while coming 621 00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:43,200 Speaker 3: with a lot of baggage, comes with this drive and 622 00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:47,880 Speaker 3: determination to move the country forward and it needs that 623 00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:52,280 Speaker 3: very much. And I know a lot of Saudis don't agree. 624 00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:56,279 Speaker 3: I get mail from I got an e mail from 625 00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:58,360 Speaker 3: I don't know who he is, but just saying to me, 626 00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:04,080 Speaker 3: I don't want my wife working with strange men. You know, 627 00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:07,200 Speaker 3: this is not what we want. And I know there 628 00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:10,880 Speaker 3: are people there that think that because I lived with 629 00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:14,800 Speaker 3: a very religiously conservative lady when I was doing the 630 00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:19,640 Speaker 3: first book, so and I'm from a very religiously conservative family, 631 00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:25,800 Speaker 3: so I have never felt, you know, intimidated in Saudi Arabia, 632 00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:28,920 Speaker 3: by the fact that you know, there are people who 633 00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:33,200 Speaker 3: believe deeply and believe that you shouldn't be focused on 634 00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:36,360 Speaker 3: the things of the world. My father didn't let us 635 00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:41,239 Speaker 3: wear shorts, our pants are, We had no TV, no telephone, 636 00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:44,840 Speaker 3: we could not date, you know, all the he was 637 00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:45,919 Speaker 3: a good Saudi father. 638 00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:51,239 Speaker 2: Do you think that that experience growing up drove you 639 00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:55,200 Speaker 2: consciously or not to be interested in Saudi Arabia all 640 00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:55,839 Speaker 2: those years ago? 641 00:49:56,960 --> 00:50:01,839 Speaker 3: It probably did, because I was just truly fascinated by 642 00:50:03,239 --> 00:50:06,879 Speaker 3: the country, and that first time I went, I met 643 00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:14,640 Speaker 3: some professional women, So people like that existed in limited numbers. 644 00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:20,000 Speaker 3: But you know, I also heard, you know, from people 645 00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:24,480 Speaker 3: what what religion was like. And then in subsequent visits 646 00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:32,120 Speaker 3: after it became even more important. And I got you 647 00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:36,440 Speaker 3: stopped on the streets of for wearing a dress that 648 00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:41,680 Speaker 3: came below my calves. But the religious police guy said, 649 00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:45,640 Speaker 3: in perfect English, what is this? What is this? Pointing 650 00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:50,600 Speaker 3: at my ankles, and told the man I was with 651 00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:55,600 Speaker 3: a businessman. Get her in the car, you know, But 652 00:50:55,840 --> 00:50:59,320 Speaker 3: I didn't. Somehow, I don't know the religio. The religious 653 00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:04,480 Speaker 3: excess didn't turn me off on the country because I 654 00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:09,480 Speaker 3: had grown up in a town where the only thing 655 00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:13,000 Speaker 3: there was to do town of nine hundred people with 656 00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:17,640 Speaker 3: five churches was go to church. You know, we did 657 00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:21,400 Speaker 3: have a drive in theater, but we weren't very often 658 00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:24,520 Speaker 3: able to go to it unless my father took us 659 00:51:24,560 --> 00:51:26,920 Speaker 3: to see the Ten Commandments or something like that. 660 00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:27,359 Speaker 2: Huh. 661 00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:31,520 Speaker 3: But you know, so it didn't. It didn't frighten me. 662 00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:32,800 Speaker 3: It intrigued me. 663 00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:34,640 Speaker 2: It was not unfamiliar. 664 00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:37,440 Speaker 3: It sounds like, yeah, it was familiar. 665 00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:41,640 Speaker 2: Thanks so much for this conversation, Karen. I appreciate it. 666 00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:42,759 Speaker 3: Thank you.