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Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let

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Speaker 2: you know. This is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 2: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 2: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 2: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 2: you can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 3: Hey, it could happen your listeners. I want a flag

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Speaker 3: that we have launched individual feeds for some of your

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Speaker 3: favorite shows that currently run within the it could Happen

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Speaker 3: and easier to share. You can still listen to these

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Speaker 3: shows in the it could Happen here feed, but can

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Speaker 3: also subscribe on an individual level. So check out Executive Disorder,

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Speaker 3: White House Weekly, Meanmar, Printing The Revolution, Marshall Islands After

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Speaker 3: the Bomb Dropped, Migrating to America, A Dream Worth Dying For,

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Speaker 3: Stop Cop City, to Defend a Forest, and Margaret Kildoy's

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Speaker 3: Cool Zone Media book Club. Listen now on the iHeartRadio app,

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Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 4: This is it could happen here. I'm Garrison Davis. One

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Speaker 4: place that it is happening right now is Washington, d C,

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Speaker 4: where Trump has undergone a quasi military takeover of the city.

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Speaker 4: And to discuss this, I'm joined by bridget Todd, DC

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Speaker 4: resident gare So.

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Speaker 5: I was on the podcast a few months ago talking

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Speaker 5: about Trump's history of threats to DC and that has

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Speaker 5: really all come to a head. So I'm really happy

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Speaker 5: to be sitting down with you to talk about it.

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Speaker 6: It has been a rough few days here in DC.

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Speaker 5: I mean if I am coming off like I sound

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Speaker 5: tired or weird or stressed, it's because I do feel

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Speaker 5: those things.

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Speaker 6: That's been a lot of feelings. Most of it.

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Speaker 5: I just hate watching Donald Trump get up in front

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Speaker 5: of America and straight lie about my city and my home.

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Speaker 5: A place like DC that you know where I'm from,

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Speaker 5: It's where it's met most of my life. It's pretty

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Speaker 5: difficult to have the national conversation be about what a

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Speaker 5: bombed out shithole my home is. So I sort of

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Speaker 5: wanted to get into the basics of what's going on

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Speaker 5: and what I think it all means for everyone, not

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Speaker 5: just people in DC. So by now you've probably seen that.

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Speaker 5: On Monday, the Trump administration announced that they were federalizing

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Speaker 5: DC's police force, the Metropolitan Police Department, or MPD. They

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Speaker 5: also announced that they'd be sending national Guard to DC.

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Speaker 5: Because DC is not a state, Trump actually and any

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Speaker 5: president would actually have authority over DC's National Guard. So

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Speaker 5: despite not being a state, DC does have a national Guard.

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Speaker 5: The authority over it is just in the hands of

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Speaker 5: the president, so with a stroke of a pen, he

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Speaker 5: can just deploy DC's National Guard whenever he wants.

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Speaker 6: He's also sending in national guard from other states.

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Speaker 4: To do this.

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Speaker 5: Trump evoked what's called Section seven forty of DC's Home

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Speaker 5: Rule Act, which allows for the president to take over

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Speaker 5: MPD for forty eight hours with possible extensions up to

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Speaker 5: thirty days in times of emergencies. I'm kind of putting

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Speaker 5: emergency in quotes because the emergency that he is saying

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Speaker 5: is crime. But we'll get into why that doesn't really

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Speaker 5: hold water in a moment. So I really can't overstate, like,

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Speaker 5: how on precedented this is. No president has ever done

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Speaker 5: this before.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, no, I somewhat relate to your pain here of

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Speaker 4: your city suddenly being thrust into national spotlight as Trump

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Speaker 4: sends in you know, military style police, and I guess

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Speaker 4: a version although with very different methods justifications happened to

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Speaker 4: my density Portland, Oregon in twenty twenty, which I'm sure

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Speaker 4: most people listening are familiar with. It's very similar reporting

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Speaker 4: on how it's burned to the ground. It is only

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Speaker 4: a husk remains. There's just one massive bonfire where downtown

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Speaker 4: used to be, and of course it's fine, but the

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Speaker 4: actual presence of the you know, groups like BORTAC actually

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Speaker 4: create situations where there's massive amounts of violence being done

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Speaker 4: by men in army fatigues. What's in DC is is

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Speaker 4: I think notably different and like a semi extension of

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Speaker 4: how he was testing out this type of thing in

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Speaker 4: LA earlier this year, but with less of like an

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Speaker 4: endpoint like at LA's stuff was more about trying to

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Speaker 4: push forward these deportations and renditions as quickly as possible.

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Speaker 4: So he's just like taking control of the whole city,

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Speaker 4: like indefinitely, it seems now for DC.

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Speaker 5: In some ways, yes, to be clear, because DC is

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Speaker 5: not a state, it is unique from any other place

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Speaker 5: in the country, and that the president kind of does

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Speaker 5: have more authority over DC than he would have other places.

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Speaker 5: And so yeah, he definitely this is definitely a federalization

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Speaker 5: of our police department. In terms of it being a

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Speaker 5: larger takeover of DC, We're not there yet. This is

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Speaker 5: something that he has definitely threatened. This is something that

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Speaker 5: he loves to talk about. That would include the president

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Speaker 5: taking over pretty much every aspect of life in DC,

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Speaker 5: so our public schools, our roads, our social services, all

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Speaker 5: of that, provoking home rule, that's what that would be.

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Speaker 5: He definitely that is definitely a threat. We should all

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Speaker 5: be very aware of that. And like it really makes

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Speaker 5: clear why DC needs full statehood yesterday, right, Like this

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Speaker 5: is an issue that should have been solved forever ago,

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Speaker 5: but right now we're talking about you know, specifically law

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Speaker 5: enforcement and the police, which on its own is is

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Speaker 5: like pretty bad.

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Speaker 4: No, that's always the first step. Like, as soon as

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Speaker 4: you take control of the enforcement mechanism, then no one

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Speaker 4: really is able to stop you from doing other things.

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Speaker 4: And that's why the first steps in all of these

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Speaker 4: like you know, weird weird like far right Silicon Valley

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Speaker 4: like plans for how they can fix quote unquote fix

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Speaker 4: the government being able to take total control over the

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Speaker 4: law enforcement apparatus is always the first step because then

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Speaker 4: you can kind of do what you want from there

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Speaker 4: and no one's going to stop you.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, in order to revoke home rule, it would take

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Speaker 5: an Act of Congress, which this Congress seems more than

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Speaker 5: willing to do whatever Trump wants.

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Speaker 6: So that's something to keep in mind. Yeah, I think that.

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Speaker 5: For residents of DC, I think the changes have been

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Speaker 5: so stark in the last just couple of forty eight

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Speaker 5: hours that I think it's very important to keep in

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Speaker 5: mind what could be coming down the pike and definitely

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Speaker 5: be aware of it. But you know, residents need to

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Speaker 5: know what this means for them and US today. And

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Speaker 5: I think that, like it's is really important to like

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Speaker 5: highlight that. I think that because of the nature of

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Speaker 5: DC being the nation's capital but also where more than

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Speaker 5: half a million people live, I think it's really easy

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Speaker 5: for people to forget that like the experience of like

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Speaker 5: people who live here, like me, you know, And I

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Speaker 5: think it's in this moment the people that I'm talking

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Speaker 5: to on the ground really are like focused on making

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Speaker 5: sure that folks know what's going on, have resources, you know,

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Speaker 5: understand their rights, understand that their rights have not changed

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Speaker 5: just because of this act this week. And so, I mean,

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Speaker 5: the thing that I am emotionally and personally struggling with

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Speaker 5: is this smear of my city being this like dangerous

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Speaker 5: hell whole. How did you manage that? What was the

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Speaker 5: experience of going through that, like like the dissonance of

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Speaker 5: like your experience every day navigating the streets of this

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Speaker 5: place where you live, and then hearing the national conversation

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Speaker 5: about it be so different from how you were experiencing it.

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Speaker 4: I think eventually it is kind of became like a

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Speaker 4: point of pride and more like an absurd aspect which

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Speaker 4: keeps like unwanted tourism down. I don't think it really

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Speaker 4: in the end bothered people in the long run. And

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Speaker 4: the reason why people had a big problem with it

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Speaker 4: specifically was because of federal law enforcement who were taking

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Speaker 4: over blocks in the city like that that was the

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Speaker 4: actual like like crux, Like Republicans constantly talked about, how,

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Speaker 4: you know, insert any city here is like falling apart,

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Speaker 4: is overridden by crime, is you know, a fallen state?

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Speaker 4: You can't go out, and like they just kind of

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Speaker 4: pick a new one to put all the attention on,

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Speaker 4: like once a week so we're kind of like used

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Speaker 4: to this, to this rhetoric. It's more so the actual

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Speaker 4: like physical presence of law enforcement and how that changes

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Speaker 4: we're able to go throughout the city and the presence

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Speaker 4: of like militarized federal law enforcement. That yeah, affects like

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Speaker 4: just regular people. It's not just rhetoric. It actually changes

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Speaker 4: how you get to interact with your city. And I

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Speaker 4: guess that's the thing that actually caused people in Portland

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Speaker 4: to be much more upset, which results in tens of

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Speaker 4: thousands of people going out into the streets and saying no,

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Speaker 4: we don't want you here. So I think more so

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Speaker 4: than just like the rhetoric of how x y city

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Speaker 4: is burned to the ground, it's more so they like

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Speaker 4: the actual physical daily life that produces the actual tension

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Speaker 4: within within the city and how they gets changed and

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Speaker 4: altered with federal law enforcement exactly.

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Speaker 5: I mean, that's pretty much what's happening on my streets

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Speaker 5: in DC. So about eight hundred and fifty officers and

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Speaker 5: agents took part in this what they called massive law

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Speaker 5: enforcement surge across DC, where they had between one hundred

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Speaker 5: and two hundred soldiers out patrolling the streets like beat

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Speaker 5: coops at any given time. And so you know, some

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Speaker 5: of the things that we've seen in the last couple

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Speaker 5: of days just simply as a longtime resident, like just

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Speaker 5: simply do not make sense, right, having federal agents patrol

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Speaker 5: places like Georgetown, which is very safe at ten o'clock

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Speaker 5: at night.

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Speaker 6: That happened last night.

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Speaker 4: Well, Georgetown actually might be the most dangerous place in

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Speaker 4: the city well in some ways, right if you thinking.

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Speaker 5: About like the kind of crime they're talking tough about, yes,

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Speaker 5: or like the National Mall at qpm a weekday, places

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Speaker 5: where it's like it don't even make sense for y'all

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Speaker 5: to be posted up there. You know, there was a

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Speaker 5: big display of force and arrests on my block just

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Speaker 5: last night in the middle of the night, where we

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Speaker 5: looked out the window and it was.

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Speaker 4: Car after car after car, order patrol.

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Speaker 5: They set up the lights, they made arrests, and my

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Speaker 5: block is residential. So it's like places where it's like

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Speaker 5: it doesn't even seem to be making sense. And that's

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Speaker 5: why we know it's really not about crime. All of

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Speaker 5: the stuff that Trump said about crime and his pressor,

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Speaker 5: I mean, it was all just lies.

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Speaker 4: Like I guess I don't you tell anybody listening to this.

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Speaker 5: But like in case you are curious whether or not

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Speaker 5: there's any credence to the fact, we're like, oh, well,

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Speaker 5: is crime going up in DC?

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Speaker 6: That is not true, right.

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Speaker 4: So violent crebs have been going down the past two

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Speaker 4: years in DC consistently.

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Speaker 5: Absolutely, So, it is true that DC did have a

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Speaker 5: spike in crime in twenty twenty three, but since then

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Speaker 5: crime is going down. If you watched that press conference,

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Speaker 5: he threw out a lot of stats about how crime

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Speaker 5: is going in the wrong direction by every measure, that's

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Speaker 5: simply not true. He said that in twenty twenty three,

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Speaker 5: the murder rate in DC reached the highest rate. This

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Speaker 5: is him, He said, probably ever going back twenty five years,

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Speaker 5: but that they don't know what that means because the

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Speaker 5: data just only goes back twenty five years, saying basically

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Speaker 5: that they didn't collect crime statistics way back then. Think

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Speaker 5: about that for a second. Twenty five years ago was

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Speaker 5: the year two thousand. Do you really think that crime

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Speaker 5: data was not being collected in the year two thousand?

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Speaker 6: It absolutely was.

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Speaker 5: We absolutely know what crime in DC looked like in

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Speaker 5: the year two thousand and beyond. And so if There's

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Speaker 5: one thing people might know about DC is that in

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Speaker 5: the eighties and the nineties we were hit hard, but

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Speaker 5: the crack epidemic crime was genuinely very high.

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Speaker 6: The city's own crime statistics, which.

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Speaker 5: We did collect from the seventies, eighties and nineties when

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Speaker 5: the population in DC was smaller, show that there was

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Speaker 5: much more higher numbers of homicides and murders.

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Speaker 6: So that's not just a lie.

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Speaker 5: It's also a weird, obvious lie, and one that when

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Speaker 5: I watched the press or I almost didn't catch.

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Speaker 7: It.

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Speaker 5: Wasn't until I sat that and went through the notes

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Speaker 5: and I was like, oh, this is not just a lie.

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Speaker 5: This is like a weird, glaring lie. I can't believe.

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Speaker 5: I like, I guess I said that to say, there

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Speaker 5: are so many lies being thrown out in a short

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Speaker 5: amount of time. When they're all washing over you, it's

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Speaker 5: kind of hard to catch them one by one. But

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Speaker 5: then when you actually sit down, you're like, wow, oh,

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Speaker 5: this was just bullshit.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's the intention. That's the what Steve Bennen calls

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Speaker 4: like muzzle velocity. You have to shoot out these things constantly,

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Speaker 4: one after another, so that it's impossible to actually hone

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Speaker 4: in and quote unquote debunk each and every one, because

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Speaker 4: by the time you're doing that, they've already moved on

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Speaker 4: to fifteen new things. You can never keep up with it.

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Speaker 4: And that's like the whole intention. That's like how they

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Speaker 4: craft literally like their sentences so that you can't just

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Speaker 4: like debunk everything they say because they just throw it

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Speaker 4: all out there and it creates this massive structure that

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Speaker 4: even if you tried chipping away at the sides, it

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Speaker 4: doesn't actually make any effect and it doesn't matter at all.

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Speaker 4: And like's what's the real effect they're trying to do

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Speaker 4: here with sending in National Guard, federalizing the police. It's

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Speaker 4: to like scare black people, and it's to scare homeless people.

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Speaker 4: And that's really what they actually mean when they say

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Speaker 4: there's high crime. And I think DC is what like

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Speaker 4: the has like the third third largest black population in

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Speaker 4: the country.

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Speaker 6: That's right. We formally called chocolate City.

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Speaker 5: We're more like a latte city today, but yeah, we

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Speaker 5: we have a heavily black and brown population here.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's that's what Trump's actually like focusing on. That's

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Speaker 4: actually what he's doing. I feel like that's that should

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Speaker 4: be pretty clear to anyone who's like familiar with like

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Speaker 4: crime panic narratives and how they've been strategically deployed throughout

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Speaker 4: the past twenty five years and you know, thirty forty

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Speaker 4: years of the country.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I don't see how somebody could see

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Speaker 5: what's happening and see the way that he is clearly like,

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Speaker 5: like even at that press or the list of cities

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Speaker 5: he was planning on going to next, Chicago, Baltimore, It's like, okay,

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Speaker 5: heavily black cities with black political leadership and black mayor.

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Speaker 4: Oh, Oakland, this is very clear what's going on? Yeah? Interesting,

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Speaker 4: interesting choice, buddy, Yeah, Like what do all these places

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Speaker 4: have in common?

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Speaker 6: Right?

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Speaker 5: One of the things I've seen people say is that

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Speaker 5: this whole thing is about the attack on the former

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Speaker 5: DOGE staffer known as big Balls.

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Speaker 4: Big Ball I think it's that's his technical term. Yes,

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Speaker 4: possibly to receive the Presidential Medal of I think freedom.

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Speaker 6: I think he got a medal. I think it happened.

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Speaker 4: It's quite possible, So we should show big Balls some

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Speaker 4: respect for his.

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Speaker 8: Struggles, I guess.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: I mean it's I never thought I would see the

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Speaker 5: day where I'd be like reporting on a story happening

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Speaker 5: in the city and talking about somebody named Big Balls.

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Speaker 4: But here we go. Really, you didn't see this coming.

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Speaker 6: You didn't see.

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Speaker 5: Someone of my being go cardcare. For a podcast that

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Speaker 5: I host about local DC news and issues called City

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Speaker 5: Cast DC, I interviewed Mark C. Graves, who was like

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Speaker 5: a long time DC reporter, and I said, Oh, is

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Speaker 5: there any truth to the idea that this attack on

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Speaker 5: Big Balls is?

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Speaker 6: Like?

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Speaker 4: What was the impetus to all this?

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Speaker 5: That Elon Musk was like, Trump, you need to federalize

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Speaker 5: DC's police department because of what happened to my former staffer.

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Speaker 5: And I understand why people where that narrative was coming from.

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Speaker 5: But he really pointed out something, which is that you know,

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Speaker 5: Trump has been talking about taking over d police department

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Speaker 5: for a very long time. He referenced it during his

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Speaker 5: first administration a little bit a lot less than he

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Speaker 5: did it the second time around. He really dialed it

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Speaker 5: up in his second campaign. He began talking about it

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Speaker 5: even in his first few months in office by threatening

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Speaker 5: to take control over MPD if our Mayor Muriel Bowser

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Speaker 5: did not make certain concessions like clearing homeless encampments near

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Speaker 5: the White House and removing Black Lives Matter Plaza from

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Speaker 5: outside the White House. He also threatened to take over

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Speaker 5: MPD and DC in general when a former Trump administration staffer,

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Speaker 5: Mike gil was shot and killed during a carjacking in

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Speaker 5: DC back in February. So when that happened again, he

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Speaker 5: was like, I'm taking over MPD, I'm taking over EMPT.

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Speaker 4: So well, the Big Balls thing alleged carjacking of Big Balls,

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Speaker 4: I will say this.

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Speaker 5: You know those stories where you're like, we're gonna get

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Speaker 5: more information about this, so it's best to just wait.

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Speaker 5: A I don't know anything. I don't have any special details,

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Speaker 5: but like my senses, this is one of those situations

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Speaker 5: where it's like, you know, first the story was I

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Speaker 5: was with a girlfriend in her car.

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Speaker 6: We were carjacked by two unarmed teens.

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Speaker 5: Then Elon Musk, super spreader of misinformation that he is,

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Speaker 5: was like, oh, he was attacked while trying to rescue

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Speaker 5: an elderly woman.

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Speaker 6: Like I just have seen enough about crime and DC.

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Speaker 6: I am.

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Speaker 5: I'm looking forward to hearing more information about what actually

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Speaker 5: went down there.

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Speaker 6: I'll just put it that.

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Speaker 4: Way if that makes sense with mister big Balls. With

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Speaker 4: mister big Balls, I guess mister Balls. I guess big

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Speaker 4: is the first Mister Balls. Please, mister Balls is my father.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, Like, I think.

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Speaker 5: The Big Balls thing might have been very convenient timing

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Speaker 5: or like a good excuse to actually move forward. But

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Speaker 5: I think narratives that Big Balls got attacked and now

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Speaker 5: Trump is taking over MPDE, I think that like doesn't

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Speaker 5: really tell the whole story, which is that this has

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Speaker 5: been a long time coming. This has been something that

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Speaker 5: Trump has been like obsessed with for quite some time,

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Speaker 5: even going back from before his second administration.

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Speaker 4: And there's there's been like a media campaign in the

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Speaker 4: past few months of specifically taking like public trendsit robbery

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Speaker 4: videos and making them super vi role of like teens

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Speaker 4: who will like steal like designer clothes on public transit, Yeah,

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Speaker 4: and turning turning this into like a national epidemic. And

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Speaker 4: again you can look at look at look at the

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Speaker 4: like the shoplifting videos from a few years ago, that

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Speaker 4: even though crime was going down, there was videos that

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Speaker 4: very visible videos of shoplifting that went super viral to

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Speaker 4: help form this this crime wave narrative that the statistics

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Speaker 4: don't necessarily support, to the point where you have Republicans

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Speaker 4: actually like denying the FBI's own crime statistics. F the

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Speaker 4: FBI famously soft on crime institution the FBI, but Republicans

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Speaker 4: saying that these debts have to be wrong because we

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Speaker 4: all know that there's crime everywhere, and like, how do

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Speaker 4: we know that? Because you're seeing like a TikTok video

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Speaker 4: about it, and that's your proof as you've seen, you

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Speaker 4: saw one or two videos of like people robbing an

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Speaker 4: apple store, and now you think that crime must be

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Speaker 4: statistically higher everywhere, Okay, Yeah, And I think.

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Speaker 5: That's why the big narrative continues to really be so sticky.

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Speaker 4: Ooh, I don't like that. Yeah, I don't mean it

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Speaker 4: how it sounds.

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Speaker 5: But like, it doesn't matter if you have statistics from

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Speaker 5: the FBI saying that crime is going down whatever, whatever,

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Speaker 5: when you if you have a visceral image of like

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Speaker 5: a bloodied big balls.

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Speaker 4: Beaten on the street, right like and so I think

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Speaker 4: that it's it's really.

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Speaker 5: Interesting how and I guess I'll just say it, how

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Speaker 5: easily manipulated people are, yeah, and how they're able to

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Speaker 5: go against the facts when they are confronted with an

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Speaker 5: image of like teens robbing a CVS or like oh,

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Speaker 5: like yeah, like eluted out CBS totally because that is

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Speaker 5: so visceral. And so that's something I've really struggled with,

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Speaker 5: is like I don't know how to counter these emotionally charged,

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Speaker 5: visceral TikTok videos and images that present one thing with facts,

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Speaker 5: Like it's like very difficult to be like, well the

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Speaker 5: data says this when people are being motivated by a

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Speaker 5: different thing.

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Speaker 4: No, and that's why it's almost kind of fruitless to

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Speaker 4: go about that strategy at this point. And like, I

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Speaker 4: don't know how to approach this, And I think it's

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Speaker 4: also worth mentioning, like you're we are not immune to

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Speaker 4: this either. We might get targeted with like different narratives

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Speaker 4: may maybe a CVUS robbery doesn't do it for us,

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Speaker 4: but no, like everyone's motivated by like emotional reactions to

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Speaker 4: things that we see as like bad or often horrific,

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Speaker 4: and that that does change the way that we understand

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Speaker 4: like the physical aspects, like the statistical patterns of the

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Speaker 4: world very clearly. Like we're emotional creatures. That's what drives us.

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Speaker 4: The fact that the emotional plight of big Balls is

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Speaker 4: driving the ruling party in the country right now is

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Speaker 4: just a little bit more notable because it's one white

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Speaker 4: guy named Big Balls.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it's true, and it almost doesn't even make sense

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Speaker 5: to like come back the idea that this is about crime.

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Speaker 5: But I know it's not about crime because one, the

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Speaker 5: Trump administration recently made very drastic cuts to DC security funding,

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Speaker 5: and so if he was really very invested in crime

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Speaker 5: and DC seems like something that his administration would not

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Speaker 5: have done.

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Speaker 6: Also, something that our mayor, who I do want.

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Speaker 5: To talk about, has said is that, as you were

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Speaker 5: sort of alluding to earlier, federal agents and military personnel

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Speaker 5: are not the people who are going to be useful

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Speaker 5: when it comes to DC like street crime. These are

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Speaker 5: people who probably aren't even informed about DC's local ordinances

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Speaker 5: and laws. Why would they be right, And so these

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Speaker 5: are not people whose jobs it is to be out

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Speaker 5: engaging with civilians about quality of life crimes like open

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Speaker 5: containers or drinking on sidewalks.

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Speaker 6: I saw a.

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Speaker 5: Pretty viral video of the police going up and stopping

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Speaker 5: somebody for he says, smoking a joint on his porch.

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Speaker 6: In DC, you are allowed to possess marijuana.

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Speaker 5: But he also was like, just so you know, Trump

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Speaker 5: is cracking down on all of these quality of life crimes.

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Speaker 5: So you can't drink a beer on your portion anymore,

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Speaker 5: that's incorrect in the District of columb But you absolutely

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Speaker 5: can drink alcohol on your private property outside.

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Speaker 6: And it's like, well, how would he know. He's not

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Speaker 6: even from here.

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Speaker 5: He's a federal agent, So like, yeah, these are not

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Speaker 5: people who are trained or skilled in combating the kind

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Speaker 5: of civilian level street crime that we're seeing them do.

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Speaker 6: This is just not an appropriate use of these people.

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Speaker 5: And so the thing that kind of gets me is

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Speaker 5: that for the amount of money that we are spending

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Speaker 5: on having federal agents deal with low level street crime

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Speaker 5: like per MPD and per the DOJ's own statistics, the

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Speaker 5: kind of crimes that they have been combating this week

440
00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:24,160
Speaker 5: are things like open container fair evasions. It was like, yeah,

441
00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:26,240
Speaker 5: you need you need an FBI agent to deal with this.

442
00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:28,720
Speaker 5: What are you talking about? But the money that we're spending,

443
00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:32,159
Speaker 5: we probably could house every single unhoused person in the

444
00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:34,560
Speaker 5: District of Columbia with the money that we are spending

445
00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:37,280
Speaker 5: on this nonsense. It's like, that's the thing that makes

446
00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:39,480
Speaker 5: me so angry. I don't want to live in a

447
00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:42,120
Speaker 5: city that's full of crime. Luckily, I don't because crime

448
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:46,200
Speaker 5: is going down. But if you genuinely wanted to combat crime,

449
00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:48,280
Speaker 5: there is a reasonable way to do this, and this

450
00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:51,160
Speaker 5: is just a big show of force to freak everybody

451
00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:55,000
Speaker 5: out and basically demonstrate that Trump can go into cities.

452
00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:55,120
Speaker 6: And do this.

453
00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:58,040
Speaker 4: It's not actually about lowering crime. The reason why they

454
00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:00,920
Speaker 4: would never want to house people's because they don't actually

455
00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:03,560
Speaker 4: want to. They don't want homeless people to live good lives.

456
00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:06,800
Speaker 4: They want to exercise power. That's the primary motivator. And

457
00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:09,040
Speaker 4: not only can bringing an out of state police be

458
00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:13,400
Speaker 4: like inconvenient, it can have lethal consequences, right because they

459
00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:15,399
Speaker 4: do not know the areas that they're policing, They do

460
00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:18,600
Speaker 4: not know the people in those areas. They don't understand

461
00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:21,560
Speaker 4: what it's actually like. When I was at the Republican

462
00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:26,040
Speaker 4: National Conference Committee, I don't know. How do how do

463
00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:28,680
Speaker 4: I not know what the RNC is? I think convention.

464
00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,000
Speaker 5: It depends on if you're talking about the event or

465
00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:33,159
Speaker 5: the like entity the entity.

466
00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:36,359
Speaker 4: When I was at the Republican National Convention in Milwaukee,

467
00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:41,679
Speaker 4: Wisconsin last year, I responded to the scene of a

468
00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:44,560
Speaker 4: police shooting where police from out of state who were

469
00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:49,000
Speaker 4: brought in for the convention. We're policing outside of the

470
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:52,920
Speaker 4: area the convention and shot and killed a homeless black

471
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:56,320
Speaker 4: man because they did not understand where the homeless people

472
00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,760
Speaker 4: have their encampments, how they solve disputes, how people can

473
00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:01,639
Speaker 4: get in two fights. But that does not mean like

474
00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:04,560
Speaker 4: you have to kill people who are having a fight.

475
00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:08,560
Speaker 4: So no, this has drastic consequences. Something that the police

476
00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:12,120
Speaker 4: in Milwaukee would have been aware of this encampment, would

477
00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:14,919
Speaker 4: have possibly been aware of the normal way that homeless

478
00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:17,200
Speaker 4: people can get into fights with each other but are

479
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:20,919
Speaker 4: not going to kill each other. Instead, you have an

480
00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:23,320
Speaker 4: out of state cop from like Ohio or something get

481
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,480
Speaker 4: freaked out that two people are fighting and then shoot

482
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:30,320
Speaker 4: one of them and stuff like this is why like

483
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:33,760
Speaker 4: out of state police are so dangerous when they're being

484
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:37,400
Speaker 4: brought into communities that they really just don't understand exactly that.

485
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,680
Speaker 5: I did an interview with a local community organizer in

486
00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:42,520
Speaker 5: DC and they told me pretty much the same thing,

487
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:46,280
Speaker 5: that there is an aspect of trust and relationship building

488
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:50,639
Speaker 5: that goes into not just like solving crimes, but combating

489
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:52,760
Speaker 5: crimes before they start, right, Like, there is a level

490
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:55,919
Speaker 5: of deep relationship building and trust building that has to

491
00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:59,600
Speaker 5: be in effect there, and that is what actually can

492
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:02,600
Speaker 5: some time times make communities safer. But it comes to

493
00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:05,280
Speaker 5: unhoused people and immigrants. These are not people who are

494
00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 5: committing crimes. These are people who are statistically more likely

495
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,000
Speaker 5: to be the victims of crimes. And so when you

496
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:13,120
Speaker 5: bring in outside forces who do not have trust, who

497
00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:15,560
Speaker 5: do not who have not built that relationship, and they're

498
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,679
Speaker 5: terrorizing the communities that are statistically more likely to be

499
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:20,760
Speaker 5: the victims of crime, that's going to be the thing

500
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:23,640
Speaker 5: that results in the opposite of crime going down, right,

501
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:27,399
Speaker 5: because you are damaging whatever trust and whatever relationship and

502
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,880
Speaker 5: whatever understandings have been built with this community and law

503
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:32,439
Speaker 5: enforcement going forward.

504
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:32,680
Speaker 4: Right.

505
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:36,159
Speaker 5: And so if we're genuinely interested in buildings are for communities,

506
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:39,800
Speaker 5: bringing in all of these outside military and federal personnel

507
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:41,239
Speaker 5: is simply not how you do it.

508
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:43,680
Speaker 6: That's how I know it's bullshit. They don't actually care about.

509
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:45,120
Speaker 5: Any of this, and like it is, it is sort

510
00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:47,080
Speaker 5: of crazy making because I feel like they want us

511
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:48,840
Speaker 5: spinning out about all of this stuff, all of this

512
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:51,639
Speaker 5: bullshit that they're spinning, which fucking guilty is charged for

513
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:53,879
Speaker 5: me this week is all I've been doing. But you know,

514
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:56,520
Speaker 5: it's just it's this. They're so effective at the spin

515
00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:57,520
Speaker 5: and the manipulation.

516
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,600
Speaker 4: No, I'm one of the for Fox News hosts who

517
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:05,440
Speaker 4: somehow has a position in government Heath. No, it was

518
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,439
Speaker 4: another one. No, No, there is another.

519
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:10,720
Speaker 6: This is which one?

520
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:15,320
Speaker 4: It was one of the ones who looks like you're evil?

521
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 4: Aunt oh, Gnian Pierro, Yes, Oh my god, I'm glad

522
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 4: that we could figure that out based on that description.

523
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:25,000
Speaker 5: That's all you had to say.

524
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 4: But she was specifically asked like, what are you gonna

525
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:30,639
Speaker 4: do to address the root cause of crime? And she says,

526
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:33,360
Speaker 4: we don't want to. We're not going to. That's not

527
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,240
Speaker 4: what we're actually focusing on. We're focusing on just like

528
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 4: eliminating crime through like force, through intimidation, and not even

529
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 4: actually eliminating crime, just just just exercising power, which is

530
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 4: what they're actually trying to say. And that's that's the

531
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:48,040
Speaker 4: whole point of this.

532
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:52,640
Speaker 5: Yes, and it's not just crime written large through force.

533
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 5: It is crime in cities that are run by democrats

534
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 5: and how are heavily black and brown populations, because you

535
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,879
Speaker 5: don't see them going into white commun unities.

536
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 6: That have crime, which white communities do have crime.

537
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:04,919
Speaker 5: You don't see them going into like cities where they

538
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:09,160
Speaker 5: have Republican mayors where crime is also quite bad. No,

539
00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 5: that's not even that's not even like part of the conversation.

540
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:14,440
Speaker 5: It is very clear what they are saying. This is

541
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:14,919
Speaker 5: an attack.

542
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:15,720
Speaker 4: It's about power.

543
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,639
Speaker 5: Yeah, this is a show of power to communities that

544
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:20,879
Speaker 5: we don't like. And I have to say something about this,

545
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 5: which is that you know, when on this first happened,

546
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:27,160
Speaker 5: when I was interviewing that longtime reporter Mark Seagraves, something

547
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:29,239
Speaker 5: that he told me that really scared me was that

548
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:33,360
Speaker 5: the administration is doing this entirely legally and by the book.

549
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:35,280
Speaker 4: He was like, Oh, it's clear that they are following

550
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 4: every letter of the law, to the.

551
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 5: Point where the first statement out of our mayor's office

552
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:43,240
Speaker 5: was that they were not challenging this takeover of MPD

553
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:45,400
Speaker 5: because they did not feel like they had any kind

554
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:47,959
Speaker 5: of legal grounds to do so, which is grim That

555
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 5: really tells me that they have got their act together.

556
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 5: There was a time where people were like, Oh, they're

557
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 5: just gonna do things and see what sticks and see what,

558
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:56,679
Speaker 5: you know, see what gets challenged in court, see what

559
00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:58,439
Speaker 5: they can get away with. It really tells me a

560
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:00,399
Speaker 5: lot that in this instance, they're like, we're doing this

561
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:02,879
Speaker 5: by the book so that there is no legal challenge

562
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:03,640
Speaker 5: to what we are doing.

563
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:18,199
Speaker 4: What has the reaction been like from Lake City government?

564
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:18,960
Speaker 9: Ugh?

565
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:23,440
Speaker 5: I mean, I will say I came on this podcast

566
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:26,400
Speaker 5: a while ago, and I would say, like, I don't

567
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,280
Speaker 5: want to say I defended our mayor Muriel Bowser, but

568
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:31,359
Speaker 5: I did want to say, like, she is in a

569
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,439
Speaker 5: position that no other election official in the country is in,

570
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,160
Speaker 5: where she has to sort of play nice with a madman.

571
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 5: I plame on the show and I said that she

572
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:44,320
Speaker 5: had this strategy of appeasement and making concessions, which, you know,

573
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:46,439
Speaker 5: say what you would look at it, I believe was

574
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 5: grounded in an attempt to like work with Trump to

575
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:51,920
Speaker 5: avoid worse outcomes.

576
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:54,960
Speaker 4: To avoid this from happening, to avoid this from happening.

577
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:57,639
Speaker 5: So my point is now, I mean, it really shows

578
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,920
Speaker 5: you the futality of trying to make concession with a fascist.

579
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 4: Right. What's the point.

580
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,119
Speaker 5: Yeah, because the thing that we were trying to avoid,

581
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 5: the thing that all of these little appeasements and concessions.

582
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:09,120
Speaker 4: Were meant to avoid, has happened.

583
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,439
Speaker 5: To be clear, Trump has not taken over DC entirely,

584
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,160
Speaker 5: and home rules still stands, and so the very worst

585
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 5: outcome has not happened yet. But this is pretty damn bad,

586
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 5: and so part of me is like, what did all

587
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 5: those concessions get you? And today, just this morning, she

588
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 5: has totally flipped her tune on this. She actually flew

589
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:29,919
Speaker 5: to mar A Lago to see Trump yesterday and she

590
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:32,879
Speaker 5: came back saying, well, maybe having more law enforcement in

591
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:36,159
Speaker 5: communities in DC will make people safer. And I just

592
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 5: cannot express to you how much it feels like I

593
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 5: was speak for myself. It feels like we have been

594
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 5: abandoned by leadership when we need it most. Right in DC,

595
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:47,720
Speaker 5: we have the mayor Muriel Bowser, who I just told

596
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 5: you about. We have a congressional Representative, Eleanor Holmes Norton,

597
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 5: who has a long time a history of being a

598
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 5: fighter and protector of DC's autonomy. However, she can't vote,

599
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 5: so she doesn't really have a lot of power, and

600
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 5: a big conversation in DC has been the fact that

601
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 5: she is really aging. She is, like, I think, the

602
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 5: second oldest member of Congress in the United States, and

603
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 5: it just we don't feel like we have anybody who

604
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 5: can fight for us, who can speak up for us?

605
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,480
Speaker 5: And I will say this, like, I'm very disappointed in

606
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 5: our mayor. I'm very disappointed in the fact that she

607
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 5: has seems to have really been behind Trump on this.

608
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 5: She does have a not terrible relationship with Trump, which

609
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 5: in some ways can be good or bad depending on

610
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 5: how you look at it. But I went into this

611
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:32,720
Speaker 5: having a sense that, oh, well, I think our mayor

612
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 5: is going to fight for us, Our mayor is going

613
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 5: to fight for DC's autonomy.

614
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,400
Speaker 6: And I'm coming out of it thinking I don't think that.

615
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:39,960
Speaker 5: She is fighting for us like the way that I

616
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 5: would want her to be positioning herself in this moment, I'm.

617
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 6: Not seeing her do.

618
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 5: And the reality is, unfortunately the mayor of DC doesn't

619
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 5: really have a lot of power and protection. She does

620
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 5: when you when you compare that to somebody like Gavin Newsom,

621
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 5: who when Trump sent the National Guard into LA knows

622
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,239
Speaker 5: that he has like the power of two senators behind him,

623
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 5: right like our mayor doesn't have that. And it just

624
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 5: really made clear when it comes to protecting DC.

625
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 6: We're really on our own. We're really all we have.

626
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 4: We don't really have a lot of power.

627
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 6: We are really depending on folks like you.

628
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 5: Care to get the word out to people who do

629
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 5: have elected officials that they can call and advocate, because like.

630
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 6: There's really nobody to call.

631
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 5: And I will say I will say this, if the

632
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 5: worst thing happens and DC's home Rule is overturned, which

633
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 5: would be a disaster, Like I should come back on

634
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 5: the show and talk about what that would look like.

635
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:35,960
Speaker 6: If that happens, DC will have no one.

636
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 5: The only people who will be in charge of how

637
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 5: DC is run is Trump and a small handful of

638
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 5: people that he would personally appoint to be the commissioner

639
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:48,320
Speaker 5: of DC. So the last time that DC did not

640
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 5: have home Rule, it was the only people who were

641
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 5: in charge were the President and I think it was

642
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 5: three commissioners that he personally appointed. None of these people

643
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 5: lived in DC other than the President who lived in

644
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 5: the White House. And so down to the smallest aspect

645
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 5: of city life, I'm talking about social services, DC health,

646
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 5: like unemployment, the streets, the schools, all of that would

647
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 5: be run by President Trump. I cannot express to you

648
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:14,640
Speaker 5: what a disaster this would be. And the smallest thing

649
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:17,720
Speaker 5: getting done in DC, down to a pothole being be

650
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:20,120
Speaker 5: paved would take congressional oversight.

651
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 6: So anybody who thinks that.

652
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 5: That is a reasonable way to run a city, oh

653
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 5: my god, wake up.

654
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:30,480
Speaker 4: Well I am not thrilled about the idea of commissioner

655
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 4: big balls because that would happen. You know that, I know.

656
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:37,000
Speaker 4: And it's funny you mentioned Newsome, and Newsom was another

657
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 4: guy who was trying to make concessions with Trump, specifically

658
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 4: around like trans sports.

659
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 6: Oh my god, don't even get me started.

660
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:45,240
Speaker 4: And he tried to, you know, make make those sort

661
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 4: of like concessions and like roll back some aspects of

662
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 4: supporting trans people in schools and trans kids. And then

663
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 4: Trump's Department of Education still went after California schools, so like, yeah,

664
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 4: no matter what concessions you give, they will still go

665
00:31:57,080 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 4: after you. Earlier, you mentioned there was like a rest

666
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 4: in your on your block last night, Like how how

667
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 4: is this affected daily life for you and other are

668
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 4: the residents of like DC?

669
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 6: So far it has been grim.

670
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 5: You know, we've seen border patrol, DA, FBI, National Guard

671
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 5: just walking the streets. And again, like something about DC

672
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 5: is that in August pretty much everybody leaves towns.

673
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 6: What's a bit of a ghost town.

674
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:27,440
Speaker 5: There is nothing that justifies the massive disruption in city

675
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:28,920
Speaker 5: services that has happened.

676
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 6: On my street last.

677
00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 5: Night they had a row of Border Patrol SUVs blocking

678
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:39,480
Speaker 5: traffic for genuinely no reason. Like The level to which

679
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 5: to say are they are purposely disrupting the flow of

680
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:46,360
Speaker 5: city life cannot be overstated. And you know, I want

681
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 5: to make it clear also, this is, as you said,

682
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 5: a real attack on the unhoused community in DC. We

683
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 5: have already seen very disturbing images of unhoused people being

684
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 5: taken away by police yesterday in the White House at

685
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 5: that they were going to be forcibly removing unhoused people,

686
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 5: forcing them into show helter's, hospitals or jails, and if

687
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 5: they didn't go, they would face five I mean, finding

688
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:08,280
Speaker 5: somebody who was living on the street, Like what are

689
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 5: you doing?

690
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, finding someone who has no money?

691
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 3: Yeah.

692
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:15,000
Speaker 5: And DC has a long history of having an issue

693
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 5: with the unhoused community. We do not have enough shelters

694
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:20,960
Speaker 5: to accommodate people, and even if we did not, everybody's

695
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:22,920
Speaker 5: gonna want to go to a shelter. And so this

696
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 5: has been an issue long before Trump was ever in DC.

697
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 5: And it does take some complexity and thoughtfulness to solve it,

698
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 5: not just going in and removing people by brute force,

699
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 5: Like that is the absolute worst thing that you can

700
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 5: be doing for this.

701
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 4: No, I mean that that relates to Trump's like anti

702
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:42,040
Speaker 4: vagrancy executive order from a few weeks ago, where he

703
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 4: wants to lock homeless people up in like mental hospitals

704
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 4: and jails and like like like forcibly so and change

705
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:52,640
Speaker 4: change the rules for how how shelters work, how shelters

706
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 4: can get funding mandatory like drug treatments, and yeah, really

707
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 4: actually just trying to like involuntarily commit people into civil

708
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 4: institutions exactly. I see parts of what he's doing in

709
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:11,440
Speaker 4: DC is trying to demonstrate his plan for that and

710
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:13,880
Speaker 4: how he wants that to spread across the country and

711
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:17,200
Speaker 4: just yeah, taking people off the street but then locking

712
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,279
Speaker 4: them either in a jail or onto like a hospital bed.

713
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 5: Yes, and there was also an ice raid at the

714
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 5: home Depot out in Northeast this week. Basically, I do

715
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:31,880
Speaker 5: think that first and foremost this is an attack on

716
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:36,080
Speaker 5: DC's black, brown, immigrant, and unhoused community. But you know,

717
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 5: I've seen images of empty bars and empty restaurants where

718
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:43,760
Speaker 5: Ice and border patrol are inside the place.

719
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:45,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, why would you want to go out? So if

720
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,839
Speaker 4: there's a fucking like the military parading around.

721
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,360
Speaker 6: Yes, it's fucking up the vibes right, Like that's I

722
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:51,839
Speaker 6: will say.

723
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 5: Like so in addition to the attacks on these vulnerable communities,

724
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 5: like if you want to have a community where people

725
00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:59,040
Speaker 5: feel safe to go out, they want to spend money,

726
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:00,520
Speaker 5: they want to like in joy of the.

727
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:02,280
Speaker 4: City, the vibes are terrible.

728
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,880
Speaker 5: This is this is just everything that makes DC great

729
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:07,880
Speaker 5: and a good place to live in a place that

730
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:10,040
Speaker 5: people want to come and spend time and and start

731
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:13,400
Speaker 5: their families. This kind of show of force goes against

732
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 5: that and threatens that. It really does threat like DC

733
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:17,840
Speaker 5: is a particular place. It's like why this is my home.

734
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 5: This kind of stuff really threatens our way of life

735
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:22,120
Speaker 5: in ways that are just.

736
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 6: It really is just sad.

737
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 4: I'm not sure if you have like examples like what

738
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 4: people are trying to do to cope with this or

739
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 4: try to like like stand their ground in their community.

740
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:37,040
Speaker 4: I guess, But like how are people like channeling their

741
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:38,160
Speaker 4: frustration right now?

742
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 5: Well, there was a very viral video of somebody throwing

743
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 5: a sub sandwich at a military personnel on us to eat.

744
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:46,960
Speaker 4: So well, that's a start. As long as we if

745
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 4: we can get fifty thousand people with sub sandwiches, we

746
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 4: might be onto something.

747
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 6: Hero DC needs.

748
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 4: So that's one literally the hero DC needs. Yeah, I

749
00:35:57,239 --> 00:35:58,280
Speaker 4: see what you did there.

750
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, I would say, so there are I feel grateful

751
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:04,960
Speaker 5: that there are organizations in DC, like local organizations that

752
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:07,919
Speaker 5: were preparing for this, and so organizations like Free DC.

753
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:10,919
Speaker 5: I spoke to one of their representatives earlier this week

754
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 5: about what they're doing, and they're really focused on giving

755
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:17,360
Speaker 5: residents resources and so they're running cop watching trainings.

756
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:18,319
Speaker 4: That's good. That's good.

757
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:19,080
Speaker 6: They're making sure that.

758
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 5: Folks know that their rights have not changed, know their

759
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 5: rights if an agent comes up to you to talk

760
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:26,759
Speaker 5: to you. They're making sure people know what they do

761
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:28,840
Speaker 5: and don't have to say in those situations, which I

762
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:31,000
Speaker 5: think is important. People should definitely check out Free DC.

763
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:33,239
Speaker 5: They've been around since the sixties or they have been

764
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,960
Speaker 5: protecting DC's autonomy for a very long time. One of

765
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:39,920
Speaker 5: the things that they were telling folks to do was

766
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 5: do you remember how in twenty twenty people would go

767
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:46,480
Speaker 5: outside and bang pots and pans to thank essential workers

768
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:50,000
Speaker 5: and medical personnel. They were telling folks because the streets

769
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:52,640
Speaker 5: feel so militarized. Not everybody's gonna feel like going out

770
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 5: to a protest or going out to a march at

771
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 5: eight o'clock at night. Make as much noise as you can,

772
00:36:57,200 --> 00:36:59,399
Speaker 5: whether it's from your open window or from your block

773
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 5: or from your do as a way to like demonstrate

774
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 5: opposition to this. And so if you want more information

775
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 5: about the kinds of that kind of organizing that they're

776
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 5: trying to provide for folks, definitely check out Free DC.

777
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 5: But I do think, I mean, the vibes are rage,

778
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:20,880
Speaker 5: and I hate that that rage feels so impotent that

779
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:23,960
Speaker 5: we that like this is just another a million examples

780
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:26,279
Speaker 5: of why we need full state that we've needed it

781
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:30,160
Speaker 5: for so long, because we are being disenfranchised. We have

782
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:33,719
Speaker 5: the possibility that people in power in DC could be

783
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:36,920
Speaker 5: people that nobody elected. Trump could appoint anybody as Commissioner

784
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:39,880
Speaker 5: of DC, and yeah, it could be big balls, right,

785
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:42,800
Speaker 5: And so we are in a situation that is so grim,

786
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:45,560
Speaker 5: and I think that shows, you know, people, people are

787
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:47,839
Speaker 5: really feeling that. And I guess one thing I want

788
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 5: to I want to add is that I was talking

789
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 5: earlier about how it's frustrating that I find that I'm

790
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:58,600
Speaker 5: often in this conversation like trying to combat Trump, and

791
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:00,880
Speaker 5: I feel I feel like I'm in a a stance

792
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 5: that I hate, which is this reactive stance where he

793
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:05,120
Speaker 5: used bullshit, and I feel like it's my job to

794
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:06,480
Speaker 5: debunk it, and it's like, well, it's a bullshit I

795
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:07,399
Speaker 5: could be doing other things.

796
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:09,440
Speaker 6: I hate that.

797
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 5: We have gotten this narrative that cities are bad, and

798
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:18,000
Speaker 5: that goes against our shared understanding of this country where

799
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:20,359
Speaker 5: cities are good. If you live in a city, don't

800
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:23,640
Speaker 5: let Trump turn you against city life. Don't let Trump

801
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 5: turn you against cities. People want to be in cities.

802
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 5: Cities are good, cities are safe, cities are cool to live,

803
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:30,799
Speaker 5: and people want to be in the city. If people

804
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 5: didn't want to live in DC, my rent wouldn't be

805
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:34,719
Speaker 5: so goddamn high. Right, people want to be here for

806
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:36,880
Speaker 5: a reason. When Trump got up on that presser and

807
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:39,719
Speaker 5: talked about how tourists come to DC this and that

808
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 5: he's right. If DC were truly a bombed out hell hole,

809
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 5: Taurus wouldn't want to bring their families here. Cities are good,

810
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:48,800
Speaker 5: and I don't think that we should let Trump rewrite

811
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:51,520
Speaker 5: the narrative that our cities are bad. Cities are good,

812
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:53,440
Speaker 5: they are good places to be. We don't have to

813
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:57,240
Speaker 5: get caught up in his fake bullshit narrative of demonizing cities.

814
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:01,000
Speaker 4: So that's why I think everyone should travel to Let's

815
00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:03,319
Speaker 4: all go to the capitol, put on some put on

816
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:06,239
Speaker 4: some masks, wave some flags, and just get in there

817
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 4: to show could we could take it over, we can

818
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 4: take the city back. Joe Biden, twenty twenty eight. Let's go.

819
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:17,560
Speaker 5: Yeah. I mean, I did see this interview on News

820
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:19,720
Speaker 5: Nation where I think it was Mehdi Hassan was talking

821
00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:22,240
Speaker 5: to some shithead and he was like, oh, if Trump

822
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:24,440
Speaker 5: cares about crime so much, why did he pardon a

823
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:28,920
Speaker 5: bunch of January sixth attackers who threatened and attacked law enforcement?

824
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 6: And it's like, oh, he would be.

825
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:32,239
Speaker 5: The interviewer was just like, oh, come on, come on,

826
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 5: you want to talk about that, come on.

827
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:34,480
Speaker 4: And it's like, okay, I.

828
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:36,879
Speaker 6: Thought tough on crime. Huh, tough on crime?

829
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:42,000
Speaker 4: Okay, No, it's it's it's crime with three ellipses, not

830
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:45,799
Speaker 4: the actual category of crime exactly crime wink wink.

831
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:46,359
Speaker 10: Yeah.

832
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:48,959
Speaker 5: It's like we know what they're what they're trying to say,

833
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:51,239
Speaker 5: but Honestly, just talking to you about this has made

834
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:52,200
Speaker 5: me feel a lot better.

835
00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 4: I've been raging all week.

836
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:56,239
Speaker 5: So this is the first time that I feel like

837
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 5: I've actually like gotten it all out.

838
00:39:58,239 --> 00:39:59,920
Speaker 6: So thank you for talking to me about it.

839
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:04,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, we will. We will certainly keep up with

840
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:07,319
Speaker 4: what's happening in d C with you know how long

841
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 4: National Guard's going to be there, how long this this

842
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:14,359
Speaker 4: federalization lasts. Maybe they'll eliminate all crime within thirty days

843
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 4: and things will go back to normal. Who knows.

844
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:19,359
Speaker 6: I mean the day that he took over there was over.

845
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:21,239
Speaker 5: There was a shooting like an hour or two later,

846
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:22,479
Speaker 5: So I was like, oh, at job, we're going.

847
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:26,160
Speaker 4: To handle this well, I guess not, but no, we will.

848
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:28,360
Speaker 4: We will keep up with this as well as Trump's

849
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:32,640
Speaker 4: promise is to go further and expand to five other cities.

850
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:36,960
Speaker 4: So thank you for sharing your your thoughts and experiences

851
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:38,440
Speaker 4: as a resident of d C.

852
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:42,279
Speaker 6: Bridget, Thank you for having me, and yeah, like, if

853
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:46,240
Speaker 6: you're out there in d C, stay safe, keep hope alive.

854
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:49,200
Speaker 4: We're all we got. Where else can people find you

855
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:52,239
Speaker 4: on the internet, Bridget? Besides, you know, on the on

856
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:54,760
Speaker 4: the steps of the Capitol waving an American flag.

857
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 6: Yeah in a mask.

858
00:40:57,560 --> 00:40:58,520
Speaker 4: Yeah.

859
00:40:58,560 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 6: You can find me at my podcast.

860
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:02,239
Speaker 5: I have a podcast on iHeartRadio called There Are No

861
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:04,840
Speaker 5: Girls on the Internet. I have a podcast about local

862
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:08,040
Speaker 5: DC news and issues called Citycast DC. You can also

863
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:10,080
Speaker 5: find me on Instagram at bridget rain d C, on

864
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:12,160
Speaker 5: TikTok at bridget rain DC, or on YouTube.

865
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:13,640
Speaker 6: And there Are No Girls on the Internet.

866
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:14,440
Speaker 8: Cheers.

867
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:35,960
Speaker 11: I'm Michael Phillips, an historian and the author of a

868
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:39,640
Speaker 11: book about racism in Dallas called White Metropolis, and the

869
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:42,680
Speaker 11: co author of a recently published book about the eugenics

870
00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:45,560
Speaker 11: movement in Texas called The Purifying Knife.

871
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 12: And I'm Stephen Monicelli. I'm an investigator reporter in Dallas,

872
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:53,760
Speaker 12: where I contribute to a variety of publications as well

873
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:57,560
Speaker 12: as Cool Zone Media. I cover political extremism in Texas

874
00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:01,319
Speaker 12: and beyond. Elon Musk has dominated the news since the

875
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 12: twenty twenty four presidential campaign, and for a lot of reasons.

876
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:09,880
Speaker 12: There's a billionaire's flirtation with neo Nazi politics. There's his

877
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 12: gutting of the social safety net through Doge. His soap

878
00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:17,840
Speaker 12: opera estrangement from President Trump also grabbed much of the Spotlight.

879
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:21,359
Speaker 12: In the past two years, Musk has resuscitated in two

880
00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:24,840
Speaker 12: Texas communities, one of the worst ideas from the robber

881
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:28,000
Speaker 12: baron age. In an effort to control his workers' lives

882
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:31,040
Speaker 12: on and off the clock, Musk is bringing the company

883
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 12: town back to life.

884
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:35,880
Speaker 11: On May third of this year, on the South Texas

885
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:38,759
Speaker 11: coast of the Gulf of Mexico, people went to the

886
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 11: voting booth on a peninsula called Boca Chica. They voted

887
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:45,880
Speaker 11: to turn their one and a half square mile patch

888
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:50,759
Speaker 11: of unincorporated land into a city called Starbase. Almost all

889
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:54,920
Speaker 11: of the voters were employees of musk SpaceX Rocket Company.

890
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 11: So are the candidates elected to govern Texas newest city.

891
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:02,719
Speaker 11: But Musk is clearly the power behind the throne.

892
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:07,640
Speaker 12: Meanwhile, in Bastrup County near Austin in central Texas, Musk

893
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:11,760
Speaker 12: gobbled up local real estate in loosely governed unincorporated lands.

894
00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:15,560
Speaker 12: That's where, in addition to Starbase, he's working to create

895
00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:20,360
Speaker 12: another company town he calls Snailbrook. Many Bascht rep presidents

896
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:24,680
Speaker 12: say Musk's businesses are poisoning the water, air, and soil

897
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:28,000
Speaker 12: in their community. On this episode of It could Happen

898
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:31,799
Speaker 12: Here we'll discuss the unfortunate history of company towns in

899
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:36,440
Speaker 12: the United States, how company towns have always undermined democracy

900
00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:40,280
Speaker 12: and workers' rights, and what these elon musk company towns

901
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:43,319
Speaker 12: may mean for the future of United States capitalism.

902
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:46,680
Speaker 11: Speaking of capitalism will be back after a few words

903
00:43:46,680 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 11: from our sponsors. Roughly between eighteen eighty in the mid

904
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:05,480
Speaker 11: nineteen thirties, an astounding twenty five hundred company towns dotted

905
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:07,480
Speaker 11: the American landscape.

906
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:09,280
Speaker 4: A product of Gilded Age greed.

907
00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:14,279
Speaker 11: At best, these corporate planned communities represented paternalistic experiments of

908
00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:18,520
Speaker 11: mind control. At their worst, they became miniature police states.

909
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:23,280
Speaker 11: In Steinway Village in New York, where not surprisingly, workers

910
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:28,680
Speaker 11: manufactured Steinway pianos, Paulman, Illinois, where employees made train cars,

911
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:33,440
Speaker 11: and Hershey's Pennsylvania, which was, of course, a chocolate manufacturing center.

912
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:37,560
Speaker 11: Employers built the houses that the workers lived in, the

913
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:40,840
Speaker 11: stores where they shopped, the saloons where they drank, and

914
00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:42,840
Speaker 11: the schools where their children learned.

915
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:46,719
Speaker 12: Chad Pearson is an historian of American labor at the

916
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:49,840
Speaker 12: University of North Texas, and he's the author of a

917
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:55,279
Speaker 12: noted book called Capitalism's Terrorists. Klansmen, lawmen, and employers in

918
00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:58,200
Speaker 12: the long nineteenth century. We talked to him about the

919
00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:00,600
Speaker 12: rise and fall of company towns in the mid eighteen

920
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:04,640
Speaker 12: hundreds to the early twentieth century. Could you explain how

921
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:07,200
Speaker 12: company towns got started in the United States and the

922
00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:09,279
Speaker 12: motives of the businessmen who started them.

923
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:13,799
Speaker 13: Certainly, so, really, I think we can identify three periods,

924
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:16,680
Speaker 13: three phases. So the first phase would be we might

925
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:19,960
Speaker 13: associate with the so called Lowell Girls in Lowell, Massachusetts,

926
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:24,120
Speaker 13: which began in the eighteen twenties and continued into the

927
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:29,880
Speaker 13: subsequent decades. These were young women girls and basically, you know,

928
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:33,000
Speaker 13: they lived on the campus the town. The boss would

929
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:35,600
Speaker 13: decide when they would work and when they would eat,

930
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:38,080
Speaker 13: and that sort of thing. After that, we have another

931
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:41,600
Speaker 13: phase which we could identify with George Pullman and the

932
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:45,800
Speaker 13: Pullman Company just outside of Chicago in the late nineteenth century,

933
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:49,600
Speaker 13: really in the eighteen eighties. Again, these were very controlling

934
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:53,160
Speaker 13: environments in which you know, the employer had all to say,

935
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:56,960
Speaker 13: workers would live in company housing. Again, they'd go to

936
00:45:56,960 --> 00:46:00,480
Speaker 13: the company church, and you know, we're really control both

937
00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:03,000
Speaker 13: during and after the workday. And then we have a

938
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:07,120
Speaker 13: whole bunch of them, mostly in mining and textile lumber communities.

939
00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:10,880
Speaker 13: By nineteen thirty nine, there were seventy planned industrial settlements

940
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:13,160
Speaker 13: built after nineteen hundred.

941
00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:14,160
Speaker 10: So quite a few.

942
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:18,240
Speaker 13: So whatever period we're talking about, these places where infamous

943
00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:21,759
Speaker 13: for management's use of surveillance and power. This is designed

944
00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:26,799
Speaker 13: really to fundamentally control folks, which round expression again in homes, workplaces,

945
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:27,440
Speaker 13: and churches.

946
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:29,200
Speaker 6: You would have to sign contracts.

947
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:31,920
Speaker 13: So in a place like mining towns in West Virginia,

948
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:33,680
Speaker 13: you'd have to sign a contract that gave the boss

949
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:37,080
Speaker 13: the authority to evict labor activists or people, you know,

950
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:41,200
Speaker 13: workers who might be involved in trying to improve their

951
00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:45,120
Speaker 13: conditions by fighting back, or they would be evicted for

952
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:49,239
Speaker 13: so called undesirable behavior, again that generally involved things like

953
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:50,239
Speaker 13: union organizing.

954
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:54,960
Speaker 12: Pearson described these company towns as many dictatorships in which

955
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:58,600
Speaker 12: fighting for better conditions could result in harsh retaliation, and

956
00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:01,480
Speaker 12: in which ministers that were hired by the company and

957
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:05,440
Speaker 12: a church built by the company bosses fed workers a

958
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:07,560
Speaker 12: steady stream of propaganda.

959
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:11,360
Speaker 13: This happened in places like New England textile mills to

960
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:14,520
Speaker 13: coal mining areas in Alabama and West Virginia.

961
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:15,560
Speaker 10: Well might happened.

962
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:18,120
Speaker 13: You'll say you're you're active in a union, or you're

963
00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:22,080
Speaker 13: resisting your boss. Right, the boss or his underlings might

964
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 13: send in mind guards and say you and your family

965
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:29,040
Speaker 13: get out, throw the stuff, their furniture on the street,

966
00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:32,360
Speaker 13: and there would be no no accountability, no way to

967
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:37,200
Speaker 13: you know, address that that problem. You'd also have company towns.

968
00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:41,760
Speaker 13: You'd have a religious you'd have preachers who would preach

969
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:44,960
Speaker 13: the company line as well. Right, So that kind of

970
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:50,759
Speaker 13: pro business, pro capitalist and doctrination was expressed both in

971
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:52,640
Speaker 13: the workplace and from the pulpit.

972
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:57,080
Speaker 11: A key way that company towns control workers was by

973
00:47:57,120 --> 00:48:01,920
Speaker 11: not paying them an actual American dollars paper certificates called script.

974
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 11: They could only be spent at company owned stores. This

975
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 11: gave the company monopoly power over what their workforce bought.

976
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:13,800
Speaker 13: A twenty five pounds sack of flower costs two fifty

977
00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:17,719
Speaker 13: at the company's store. It costs only one ninety elsewhere. Right,

978
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:21,400
Speaker 13: So this was a way for companies to sort of

979
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:24,319
Speaker 13: corner the market, if you will, right, they could jack

980
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:25,160
Speaker 13: up prices.

981
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:28,360
Speaker 10: You were basically a slave to the system.

982
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:33,200
Speaker 12: George Pullman, who established the company that made luxury railroad cars,

983
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:37,120
Speaker 12: created a company town in Illinois in eighteen eighty one,

984
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:40,680
Speaker 12: Pullman presented his experiment to the world as a utopia.

985
00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:44,600
Speaker 12: The workers' houses there had natural gas and running water,

986
00:48:44,719 --> 00:48:47,960
Speaker 12: which was not the norm at the time. Some even

987
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:52,120
Speaker 12: had indoor plumbing. The town had retail shops and well

988
00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:56,160
Speaker 12: supplied markets, and tourists visited it as a supposed ideal

989
00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:57,440
Speaker 12: community of the future.

990
00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:01,080
Speaker 11: In spite of the apparent shininess of Pullman Illinois, the

991
00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:05,360
Speaker 11: relationship between Pullman and his employees turned violent in eighteen

992
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:08,319
Speaker 11: ninety four. A is doctor Pearson explains.

993
00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:12,279
Speaker 13: So Pullman, George Pullman, began creating this utopian community in

994
00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:17,480
Speaker 13: eighteen eighty Okay, that's shortly after this massive nationwide strike

995
00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:20,279
Speaker 13: in eighteen seventy seven of railroad workers. So a lot

996
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:24,720
Speaker 13: of bosses in the aftermath of these massive confrontations were like, Okay,

997
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:26,720
Speaker 13: we've got to do something. We've got to do something

998
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:30,320
Speaker 13: to solve what they called the labor problem, the labor question.

999
00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:34,240
Speaker 13: And one way they did that was through welfare work,

1000
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:38,279
Speaker 13: trying to be more benevolent right parents as opposed to

1001
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:41,839
Speaker 13: only six and so Pullman was established in eighteen eighty

1002
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:45,400
Speaker 13: four just outside of Chicago, had about twelve thousand residents

1003
00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:49,440
Speaker 13: and it was at the time the largest, most famous.

1004
00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:50,160
Speaker 10: Company town in the nation.

1005
00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:52,799
Speaker 13: And he did, I mean, let's give credit where credit

1006
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:56,880
Speaker 13: is due some things that did improve the conditions for employees.

1007
00:49:56,920 --> 00:50:00,560
Speaker 13: So he had a company doctor. He oversaw good school

1008
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:04,400
Speaker 13: system funded athletic programs a company banned and he modeled

1009
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:08,480
Speaker 13: this on a company town outside of Bradford, England. So

1010
00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:11,440
Speaker 13: what we see is, you know, the company towns do

1011
00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:13,719
Speaker 13: not originate in the United States. They are sort of

1012
00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:16,839
Speaker 13: a phenomenon that we see across the industrialized world. But

1013
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:19,560
Speaker 13: of course there was also a darker side. He banned alcohol,

1014
00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:23,279
Speaker 13: he restricted tobacco use, He imposed a curfew, right, so

1015
00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:25,880
Speaker 13: you want to go out, you know, it's five o'clock somewhere.

1016
00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:26,839
Speaker 8: No, it's not right.

1017
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:30,319
Speaker 13: And so it was also pretty expensive to live there.

1018
00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:33,520
Speaker 13: Residents had to spend something like thirty percent of their

1019
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:37,239
Speaker 13: money on rent, and when they saved enough money an

1020
00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:40,640
Speaker 13: impossible thing to do. Often when they did save that money,

1021
00:50:40,680 --> 00:50:42,000
Speaker 13: they would they would get out.

1022
00:50:42,520 --> 00:50:46,480
Speaker 12: Pullman's experiment in welfare capitalism came crashing down when the

1023
00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:49,719
Speaker 12: United States sank into an economic depression that lasted from

1024
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:53,640
Speaker 12: eighteen ninety three to eighteen ninety seven, at one point

1025
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:57,960
Speaker 12: three million people, or about twenty percent of the country's workforce,

1026
00:50:58,320 --> 00:51:02,799
Speaker 12: could not find jobs. Hunger and suicide became rampant as

1027
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:06,360
Speaker 12: hard times dragged on, and Pullman laid off hundreds of

1028
00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:09,680
Speaker 12: workers and slashed wages by thirty three percent.

1029
00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:13,080
Speaker 11: During this time, residents of the company town in Illinois

1030
00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:16,680
Speaker 11: struggled to pay rent at the Pullman owned housing, where

1031
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:21,160
Speaker 11: management refused the lower prices. Eugene Debs, who would soon

1032
00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:23,800
Speaker 11: emerge as the leader of the Socialist Party of America

1033
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:27,560
Speaker 11: and would served five times as that party's presidential nominee,

1034
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:31,400
Speaker 11: led one hundred and fifty thousand member American Railway Union

1035
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:35,759
Speaker 11: the ARU, stage a strike calling for a rollback in

1036
00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:39,160
Speaker 11: pay cuts in a reduction rents at the company housing.

1037
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:43,680
Speaker 11: The strike spread nationwide, with railroad workers refusing to handle

1038
00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:46,000
Speaker 11: trains carrying Pullman cars.

1039
00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:50,600
Speaker 12: President Grover Cleveland dispatched twelve thousand troops to crush the

1040
00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:54,319
Speaker 12: uprising and reopen the rail lines. Federal marshalls shot two

1041
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:58,200
Speaker 12: strikers to death in Kensington, Illinois, not far from Chicago,

1042
00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:01,680
Speaker 12: while authorities arrested Dabbs and put him in prison for

1043
00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:05,160
Speaker 12: defying the court order by continuing the strike in a

1044
00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:08,840
Speaker 12: stop to workers, the House and Senate unanimously passed a

1045
00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:12,560
Speaker 12: bill creating what we now know today as Labor Day.

1046
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:17,680
Speaker 13: Later on, in jail, using depths becomes radicalized, reading marks

1047
00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:21,120
Speaker 13: runs for president. A few times after that, bottom line

1048
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:24,640
Speaker 13: workers lost a strike, but Pullman's experiments soon ended. The

1049
00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:28,000
Speaker 13: Illinois Supreme Court rule that George Pullman's ownership of the

1050
00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:32,239
Speaker 13: community was in violation of its charter and dismantled the

1051
00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:37,000
Speaker 13: town in eighteen ninety eight. So a dramatic period in

1052
00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:40,600
Speaker 13: US history, one of the most important struggles in US

1053
00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:44,720
Speaker 13: labor history, and it really showed the way in which

1054
00:52:45,200 --> 00:52:49,840
Speaker 13: bosses the state came together to really fight labor.

1055
00:52:50,239 --> 00:52:52,839
Speaker 12: By around the end of the eighteen hundreds, about three

1056
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:56,640
Speaker 12: percent of the American population lived under the almost complete

1057
00:52:56,640 --> 00:53:01,160
Speaker 12: control of their corporate masters. Meanwhile, an extensive network of

1058
00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:07,960
Speaker 12: spies filled company towns. These corporate agents posed as fellow workers, bartenders, mailmen,

1059
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:11,400
Speaker 12: or just another customer at the store. They reported to

1060
00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:15,320
Speaker 12: management any e mail content who complained about working hours

1061
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:19,320
Speaker 12: or wages. Fired workers were often placed on a blacklist

1062
00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:23,360
Speaker 12: that was widely distributed among corporations and made landing a

1063
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:27,800
Speaker 12: new job even more difficult, Some mining towns resembled prison camps.

1064
00:53:28,760 --> 00:53:32,239
Speaker 12: Arm guards surrounded the towns to keep out union organizers

1065
00:53:32,880 --> 00:53:36,800
Speaker 12: in the corporate overlords in company towns use violent means

1066
00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:42,680
Speaker 12: to maintain tyrannical control. We asked doctor Pearson to explain this. Now,

1067
00:53:42,719 --> 00:53:46,640
Speaker 12: Doctor Pearson, you titled one of your books Capitalism's Terrorists.

1068
00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:50,120
Speaker 12: Then you were referring basically to the fact that corporations,

1069
00:53:50,120 --> 00:53:54,360
Speaker 12: including the ones that owned company towns, often used private armies,

1070
00:53:54,520 --> 00:53:58,160
Speaker 12: armed militias, or they basically hired outside violent groups to

1071
00:53:58,200 --> 00:54:00,759
Speaker 12: control labor. Did you go into that a little bit more?

1072
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:05,480
Speaker 13: Let me read you an anecdote from Vandergriff, Pennsylvania. Vandergrift,

1073
00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:08,680
Speaker 13: Pennsylvania is a company pound not far from Pittsburgh. It's

1074
00:54:08,719 --> 00:54:11,439
Speaker 13: a steel town. And in July nineteen oh nine, during

1075
00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:15,279
Speaker 13: a strike against the American Sheet and Tinplay Company, the

1076
00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:19,239
Speaker 13: company's superintendent was a guy named Oscar Lindquist. He led

1077
00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:22,560
Speaker 13: a mob of hundreds to a hotel in the nearby

1078
00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:25,200
Speaker 13: town of Apollo, where the union organizers were staying. So

1079
00:54:25,239 --> 00:54:30,040
Speaker 13: there's an effort to build union membership in this company town.

1080
00:54:30,160 --> 00:54:34,040
Speaker 13: And Linquist was so pissed about their presence, so he

1081
00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:36,879
Speaker 13: informed the organizers that they had an hour to leave

1082
00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:39,200
Speaker 13: town and that he would burn the building down if

1083
00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:43,040
Speaker 13: they refused to comply. When they protested, insisting that they

1084
00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:46,440
Speaker 13: had free speech and assembly rights, Linquist claimed that quote

1085
00:54:46,640 --> 00:54:49,960
Speaker 13: his word was the law. A local town official, reinforcing

1086
00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:52,680
Speaker 13: linquist demand, gave the men until the next morning to leave.

1087
00:54:53,320 --> 00:54:57,240
Speaker 13: So we have threats of like burning places down, killing

1088
00:54:57,280 --> 00:55:03,600
Speaker 13: people right, and ultimately no accountability. I think it's fair

1089
00:55:04,160 --> 00:55:06,080
Speaker 13: to call these people terrorists.

1090
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:11,120
Speaker 12: The harshness of company towns inspired worker resistance, including what

1091
00:55:11,239 --> 00:55:15,000
Speaker 12: came to be known as the Colorado Coalfield War. We'll

1092
00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:18,080
Speaker 12: hear more about that, and a tragedy that came to

1093
00:55:18,120 --> 00:55:22,719
Speaker 12: be known as the Ludlow Massacre. After this break sponsored

1094
00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:36,960
Speaker 12: by some companies, one of the bloodiest confrontations between a

1095
00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:41,640
Speaker 12: company militia and striking workers in American history took place

1096
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:46,320
Speaker 12: in Ludlow, Colorado, in the early twentieth century. The Colorado

1097
00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:49,239
Speaker 12: Fuel and Iron Company controlled several coal mines, and it

1098
00:55:49,320 --> 00:55:52,640
Speaker 12: was owned by the world's richest man, John D. Rockefeller,

1099
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:56,760
Speaker 12: who also owned the Standard Oil Company. The coal workers

1100
00:55:56,840 --> 00:56:01,200
Speaker 12: were unhappy with several things there were king twelve hour days,

1101
00:56:01,360 --> 00:56:04,960
Speaker 12: six days a week, sometimes seven. Through their union, the

1102
00:56:05,080 --> 00:56:08,160
Speaker 12: United Mine Workers, they asked for rays and for their

1103
00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:11,279
Speaker 12: workday to be no more than eight hours. They also

1104
00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:13,719
Speaker 12: demanded the right to live in housing that wasn't part

1105
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:17,120
Speaker 12: of the company town controlled by Rockefeller, and to spend

1106
00:56:17,120 --> 00:56:20,480
Speaker 12: their hard earned money in stores that he didn't control.

1107
00:56:21,080 --> 00:56:24,439
Speaker 12: The relationship between the United Mineworkers and Rockefeller broke down

1108
00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:28,600
Speaker 12: when he refused to negotiate with them. Between September nineteen

1109
00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:32,280
Speaker 12: thirteen and December nineteen fourteen, the coal miners and Ludlow

1110
00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:36,160
Speaker 12: stage strikes against the richest man on the planet at

1111
00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:36,600
Speaker 12: the time.

1112
00:56:37,320 --> 00:56:42,719
Speaker 11: Instead of negotiating, Rockefeller assembled a private army of local sheriffs, deputies,

1113
00:56:42,760 --> 00:56:46,719
Speaker 11: and private detectives. The militia armed itself with a motorized

1114
00:56:46,760 --> 00:56:52,319
Speaker 11: gatling gun that Rockefeller's goons named the Death Special. The

1115
00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:55,960
Speaker 11: nation recoiled in horror when on April twentieth, nineteen fourteen,

1116
00:56:56,440 --> 00:57:00,359
Speaker 11: militia troops attacked a company miner's tent colony. They were

1117
00:57:00,360 --> 00:57:02,640
Speaker 11: living in the tent colony because that had been kicked

1118
00:57:02,640 --> 00:57:07,640
Speaker 11: out of company housing. During the armed assault, Rockefeller's troops

1119
00:57:07,719 --> 00:57:11,480
Speaker 11: killed sixty six men, women, and children. They doused the

1120
00:57:11,560 --> 00:57:15,920
Speaker 11: tents with kerosene, incinerating eleven hiding in a pit, including

1121
00:57:15,960 --> 00:57:16,800
Speaker 11: a pregnant woman.

1122
00:57:17,240 --> 00:57:20,600
Speaker 12: The folk singer Woody Guthrie immortalized the horrific scene at

1123
00:57:20,680 --> 00:57:23,680
Speaker 12: Ludlow in his ballad the Ludlow Massacre.

1124
00:57:25,120 --> 00:57:28,440
Speaker 4: You struck a man in the blaze it started.

1125
00:57:29,000 --> 00:57:32,280
Speaker 14: You pulled the triggers of your gabling guns.

1126
00:57:32,880 --> 00:57:37,640
Speaker 12: I made around for the children, for the farwells of me.

1127
00:57:38,720 --> 00:57:42,920
Speaker 9: Thirteen children died from your guns.

1128
00:57:43,160 --> 00:57:45,840
Speaker 12: About two hundred people in all died in what came

1129
00:57:45,880 --> 00:57:49,400
Speaker 12: to be called the Colorado Coalfield War. So we asked

1130
00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:52,080
Speaker 12: doctor Pearson about the long term impact of the Ludlow

1131
00:57:52,160 --> 00:57:56,080
Speaker 12: massacre and what happened to company towns in the subsequent years.

1132
00:57:56,640 --> 00:57:59,640
Speaker 13: So basically, on the morning of April twenty at nineteen fourteen,

1133
00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:04,120
Speaker 13: guardsmen who were aligned with the Colorado Fuel and Iron Company,

1134
00:58:04,320 --> 00:58:07,320
Speaker 13: which is owned by John D. Rockefeller, attacked this camp

1135
00:58:07,680 --> 00:58:12,800
Speaker 13: of strikers, mineworkers strikers, ultimately killing twenty one people, including

1136
00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:17,640
Speaker 13: eleven children. This brutality, this brutality lasted for fourteen hours.

1137
00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:21,640
Speaker 13: The guards torched the colony, and this came in the

1138
00:58:21,640 --> 00:58:23,920
Speaker 13: midst of a strike that had been going on for months,

1139
00:58:24,240 --> 00:58:29,520
Speaker 13: which started in September nineteen thirteen, and so this was

1140
00:58:29,880 --> 00:58:34,280
Speaker 13: a real struggle. It was a terrible public relations disaster.

1141
00:58:34,680 --> 00:58:38,760
Speaker 13: From the vantage point of Rockefeller in the company, the

1142
00:58:38,840 --> 00:58:42,040
Speaker 13: pressure to do something was great. And so what we

1143
00:58:42,080 --> 00:58:46,240
Speaker 13: see as we see government officials meeting and discussing this event,

1144
00:58:46,600 --> 00:58:49,960
Speaker 13: there are these various gatherings of business people and labor

1145
00:58:50,040 --> 00:58:53,320
Speaker 13: unions trying to resolve it. And in the aftermath of this,

1146
00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:58,960
Speaker 13: Rockefeller worked closely with what we might call industrial relations specialists,

1147
00:58:59,200 --> 00:59:04,280
Speaker 13: and he became a champion of welfare capitalism. Welfare capitalism,

1148
00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:09,080
Speaker 13: like company unions, they sort of top down initiatives designed

1149
00:59:09,120 --> 00:59:13,080
Speaker 13: to win, as I pointed out, factory solidarity instead of

1150
00:59:13,120 --> 00:59:17,520
Speaker 13: class solidarity. And so how successful that was probably not.

1151
00:59:18,040 --> 00:59:21,280
Speaker 13: These bosses continued to exploit, but they did so with

1152
00:59:21,360 --> 00:59:22,280
Speaker 13: smiley faces.

1153
00:59:22,880 --> 00:59:24,840
Speaker 12: As you mentioned at the beginning of the episode, company

1154
00:59:24,880 --> 00:59:28,520
Speaker 12: towns never completely died, and they're making a bit of

1155
00:59:28,560 --> 00:59:33,280
Speaker 12: a disturbing comeback via Rockefeller's successor as the world's richest man.

1156
00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:38,480
Speaker 12: South African native and Texas transplant Elon Musk. Texas Governor

1157
00:59:38,480 --> 00:59:41,400
Speaker 12: Greg Abbott has been a big ally of Musk at

1158
00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:44,040
Speaker 12: least until his nasty split with Trump over the president's

1159
00:59:44,120 --> 00:59:47,760
Speaker 12: tax and spending policies. But nonetheless, Musk is still popular

1160
00:59:47,840 --> 00:59:50,320
Speaker 12: in Texas, and the state and local governments, for instance,

1161
00:59:50,560 --> 00:59:53,960
Speaker 12: have given Musk sixty four million dollars worth of tax

1162
00:59:54,000 --> 00:59:58,280
Speaker 12: breaks to establish his Tesla factory called Giga Texas in

1163
00:59:58,400 --> 01:00:01,200
Speaker 12: Travis County, not far from the state capitol.

1164
01:00:02,000 --> 01:00:06,000
Speaker 11: COVID nineteen restrictions in California during the pandemic and rage,

1165
01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:11,200
Speaker 11: Musk for a time defied state law. He derided California

1166
01:00:11,200 --> 01:00:16,880
Speaker 11: as defined by quote overregulation, over litigation, and over taxation,

1167
01:00:17,120 --> 01:00:20,880
Speaker 11: poop on the sidewalk, and scorn. In contrast, Texas stood

1168
01:00:20,880 --> 01:00:24,600
Speaker 11: out for its lax environmental and labor standards. As Abbot

1169
01:00:24,600 --> 01:00:26,959
Speaker 11: bragged to the Fox Business Channel.

1170
01:00:26,880 --> 01:00:29,200
Speaker 4: A need that Elon had with speed.

1171
01:00:29,240 --> 01:00:32,720
Speaker 15: He does everything fast, and this would have taken five,

1172
01:00:32,800 --> 01:00:36,360
Speaker 15: maybe ten years to accomplish in California. I told him

1173
01:00:36,360 --> 01:00:38,920
Speaker 15: that Texas moves at the speed of business. He was

1174
01:00:38,960 --> 01:00:43,560
Speaker 15: able to complete a mal long gigafactory in a year

1175
01:00:43,600 --> 01:00:47,280
Speaker 15: and a half. That is unheard of, probably not replicable

1176
01:00:47,520 --> 01:00:48,440
Speaker 15: in any other state.

1177
01:00:49,080 --> 01:00:53,320
Speaker 12: Whether Bastor residents liked Musk or not, it soon became

1178
01:00:53,400 --> 01:00:56,920
Speaker 12: clear that he was making a very large local footprint.

1179
01:00:57,640 --> 01:01:01,800
Speaker 12: Bastrip County has always been as for its beauty. This

1180
01:01:01,960 --> 01:01:05,480
Speaker 12: is how Bastro sold itself to tourists, businesses, and potential

1181
01:01:05,480 --> 01:01:07,120
Speaker 12: residents in the early two thousands.

1182
01:01:07,360 --> 01:01:09,920
Speaker 1: Next time you're on the way between Houston and Austin

1183
01:01:10,160 --> 01:01:13,800
Speaker 1: or points in between, you want to stop here in Bastrov.

1184
01:01:14,080 --> 01:01:16,919
Speaker 1: We've got a pretty little place here along the Colorado River,

1185
01:01:17,760 --> 01:01:22,120
Speaker 1: a place with charm and great natural beauty. We're the

1186
01:01:22,160 --> 01:01:25,760
Speaker 1: home of the lost times. So cross the bridge into

1187
01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:29,520
Speaker 1: the old town and have a look. We've been growing

1188
01:01:29,600 --> 01:01:33,200
Speaker 1: here since eighteen thirty two, and growing in a good way,

1189
01:01:33,840 --> 01:01:36,760
Speaker 1: a way that looks to the future and that preserves

1190
01:01:36,800 --> 01:01:42,480
Speaker 1: the landmarks of the past. Bastrop has more than one

1191
01:01:42,560 --> 01:01:45,920
Speaker 1: hundred and twenty homes and other commercial and public buildings

1192
01:01:45,960 --> 01:01:51,360
Speaker 1: on the National Register of Historic Places. Some people come

1193
01:01:51,360 --> 01:01:55,000
Speaker 1: here just to drive around town and see the pretty houses.

1194
01:01:57,080 --> 01:02:00,240
Speaker 11: There's a heavy price for moving at Greg Abbott's beat

1195
01:02:00,240 --> 01:02:05,200
Speaker 11: a business. However, chap Ambrose, a landowner in Bashtrop County,

1196
01:02:05,560 --> 01:02:09,040
Speaker 11: thirty three miles southeast of Austin, said that he admired

1197
01:02:09,160 --> 01:02:12,880
Speaker 11: Musk for being a high tech titan. He was excited

1198
01:02:12,880 --> 01:02:14,840
Speaker 11: when the billionaire announced he was going to move part

1199
01:02:14,880 --> 01:02:19,280
Speaker 11: of his business empire to the small, mostly agricultural county.

1200
01:02:19,480 --> 01:02:22,920
Speaker 11: Ambrose describes his feelings about musk arrival in his YouTube

1201
01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:25,320
Speaker 11: series Keep Bashstrop Boring.

1202
01:02:30,960 --> 01:02:34,520
Speaker 7: The weird part here is I'm actually an Elon Musk fan.

1203
01:02:35,280 --> 01:02:40,760
Speaker 7: I have my Tesla cybertruck reservation here from November of

1204
01:02:40,840 --> 01:02:46,760
Speaker 7: twenty nineteen, and SpaceX's Starlink, their satellite service. I've also

1205
01:02:46,840 --> 01:02:48,120
Speaker 7: signed up for last year.

1206
01:02:49,200 --> 01:02:52,800
Speaker 11: All of Bashtrop's natural and architectural splendor, however, is in

1207
01:02:52,920 --> 01:02:57,560
Speaker 11: danger since Musk came to town. In Texas counties have

1208
01:02:57,640 --> 01:03:00,640
Speaker 11: even less ability to protect the environment than these cities,

1209
01:03:01,360 --> 01:03:05,480
Speaker 11: and Musk, hat strategically places operation on land will face

1210
01:03:05,640 --> 01:03:09,520
Speaker 11: lax local oversight. He used his fortune to buy about

1211
01:03:09,520 --> 01:03:13,120
Speaker 11: thirty five thousand acres of what was once farmland in

1212
01:03:13,200 --> 01:03:16,920
Speaker 11: Bastrop County, which is now headquarters for the Boring Company.

1213
01:03:17,680 --> 01:03:21,640
Speaker 11: The Boring Company plans to build tunnels Musk hoops one

1214
01:03:21,760 --> 01:03:26,040
Speaker 11: day will provide high speed underground alternatives to our current

1215
01:03:26,120 --> 01:03:30,200
Speaker 11: web of interstates. Musk has secured permits to dig six

1216
01:03:30,280 --> 01:03:33,520
Speaker 11: test tunnels in Baschtup County, which is now also officially

1217
01:03:33,520 --> 01:03:37,520
Speaker 11: the headquarters of his social media platform X formerly known

1218
01:03:37,640 --> 01:03:41,560
Speaker 11: as Twitter. The Musk Industrial complex also includes a five

1219
01:03:41,720 --> 01:03:46,960
Speaker 11: hundred thousand square foot warehouse where the Space Exploration Technologies Corporation,

1220
01:03:47,360 --> 01:03:51,040
Speaker 11: more commonly known as SpaceX, builds terminals for another Musk

1221
01:03:51,120 --> 01:03:56,640
Speaker 11: business venture, the satellite company Starlink. Neuralink, which manufactures computer

1222
01:03:56,720 --> 01:03:59,680
Speaker 11: chips that have been experimentally implanted in test subjects brains

1223
01:04:00,120 --> 01:04:05,040
Speaker 11: and resulted in the deaths of many chimpanzees, is also nearby.

1224
01:04:05,400 --> 01:04:09,680
Speaker 11: The Tesla Gigafactory, which produces electronic cars, is just thirteen

1225
01:04:09,720 --> 01:04:14,200
Speaker 11: miles west on an unincorporated land neighboring Travis County. I've

1226
01:04:14,200 --> 01:04:18,320
Speaker 11: seen it driving down the highway. It's an abomination. Construction

1227
01:04:18,400 --> 01:04:22,680
Speaker 11: has also begun on a company town Musk has named Snailbrook.

1228
01:04:23,400 --> 01:04:27,360
Speaker 11: Plans for Snailbook eventually include one hundred and ten single

1229
01:04:27,400 --> 01:04:31,440
Speaker 11: family rental homes actually owned by Musk. So far, fewer

1230
01:04:31,480 --> 01:04:35,960
Speaker 11: than twenty modular homes have been completed. According to teen Vogue,

1231
01:04:36,200 --> 01:04:39,160
Speaker 11: plans are that rent for these houses will start at

1232
01:04:39,200 --> 01:04:42,560
Speaker 11: about eight hundred a month for two or three bedroom dwelling,

1233
01:04:42,600 --> 01:04:45,760
Speaker 11: which is well below the nineteen hundred and twenty five

1234
01:04:45,800 --> 01:04:50,439
Speaker 11: dollars median rent. In bashtrop County, a Montessori school called

1235
01:04:50,480 --> 01:04:54,040
Speaker 11: ad Astra, which from the Latin which means too the Stars,

1236
01:04:54,120 --> 01:04:57,960
Speaker 11: is open, along with the boring bodega, which the Austin

1237
01:04:58,000 --> 01:05:04,000
Speaker 11: American Statesman notes offers snacks, soda, coffee, beer, wine, a

1238
01:05:04,120 --> 01:05:08,480
Speaker 11: children's playground, lounge space complete with video games and beanbag toss,

1239
01:05:09,120 --> 01:05:11,360
Speaker 11: a pickleball court that can be rented for a dollar

1240
01:05:11,360 --> 01:05:15,320
Speaker 11: an hour, and of course, a variety of boring company merchandise,

1241
01:05:15,880 --> 01:05:18,560
Speaker 11: such as a T shirt that says tunnel Mars.

1242
01:05:19,720 --> 01:05:24,000
Speaker 12: This purported worker utopia already has a Gilded Age style catch.

1243
01:05:24,400 --> 01:05:27,480
Speaker 12: If workers get fired by Musk Long, famous for his

1244
01:05:27,640 --> 01:05:31,240
Speaker 12: volatility and mass layoffs at his companies, they will only

1245
01:05:31,280 --> 01:05:34,160
Speaker 12: have a month to vacate their homes. And, as with

1246
01:05:34,520 --> 01:05:37,800
Speaker 12: the Gilded Age, much under the Snailbrook glitter is not gold.

1247
01:05:38,240 --> 01:05:41,440
Speaker 12: The town's playground, for instance, lack shade from the broiling

1248
01:05:41,520 --> 01:05:44,720
Speaker 12: summertime Central Texas heat, and much of the equipment is

1249
01:05:44,760 --> 01:05:49,120
Speaker 12: broken and made of inferior materials. The Monastery school initially

1250
01:05:49,160 --> 01:05:52,040
Speaker 12: admitted fifty students, but the campus wasn't big enough. Only

1251
01:05:52,080 --> 01:05:55,960
Speaker 12: sixteen actually attended when classes first opened. Because the facilities

1252
01:05:55,960 --> 01:05:57,200
Speaker 12: were too small.

1253
01:05:57,440 --> 01:06:01,800
Speaker 11: Musk once marketed himself as an environmental savior. His electric

1254
01:06:01,880 --> 01:06:05,720
Speaker 11: cars would supposedly save the planet from climate change. However,

1255
01:06:05,760 --> 01:06:09,760
Speaker 11: in Bashstrop County, he's a major polluter. The Boring company

1256
01:06:09,760 --> 01:06:12,360
Speaker 11: petitioned Texas for the right to pour one hundred and

1257
01:06:12,440 --> 01:06:17,080
Speaker 11: forty three thousand gallons of treated wastewater into the Colorado

1258
01:06:17,160 --> 01:06:21,480
Speaker 11: River every single day. Meanwhile, the Texts Commission on Environmental

1259
01:06:21,560 --> 01:06:25,320
Speaker 11: Quality to date has cited SpaceX and the Boring Company

1260
01:06:25,400 --> 01:06:30,120
Speaker 11: thirteen times because the unauthorized discharge of water used to

1261
01:06:30,200 --> 01:06:33,880
Speaker 11: clean concrete trucks. The company also failed to meet state

1262
01:06:34,000 --> 01:06:38,200
Speaker 11: standards regarding erosion control and the release of toxic chemicals

1263
01:06:38,200 --> 01:06:42,360
Speaker 11: in the soil, As teen Vogue reported. However, the resulting

1264
01:06:42,440 --> 01:06:45,440
Speaker 11: fines represent mere pocket change for a man who earns

1265
01:06:45,480 --> 01:06:49,960
Speaker 11: an estimated one thousand dollars a second. The self professed

1266
01:06:50,040 --> 01:06:54,000
Speaker 11: Musk fan Chap Ambrose, who he heard from earlier, said

1267
01:06:54,040 --> 01:06:55,360
Speaker 11: he's disappointed about all this.

1268
01:06:55,920 --> 01:06:59,520
Speaker 7: There's a culture of secrecy and it seems they're actively

1269
01:06:59,560 --> 01:07:02,800
Speaker 7: trying to obscure the truth, not just from neighbors, but

1270
01:07:03,200 --> 01:07:06,600
Speaker 7: also are county officials. If you're going to prototype the

1271
01:07:06,680 --> 01:07:10,760
Speaker 7: world's fastest tunneling machine in minderborhood. Then I expect the

1272
01:07:10,800 --> 01:07:14,480
Speaker 7: most innovative and transparent safety systems to go alongside it.

1273
01:07:14,920 --> 01:07:17,760
Speaker 7: Why do they refuse to give direct answers? And why

1274
01:07:17,760 --> 01:07:20,520
Speaker 7: won't they put their promises in writing? Why do they

1275
01:07:20,520 --> 01:07:24,000
Speaker 7: refuse to follow the very minimal restrictions we have in

1276
01:07:24,040 --> 01:07:26,920
Speaker 7: Texas for development? And why do I have to go

1277
01:07:26,960 --> 01:07:29,640
Speaker 7: to Commissioner Court so that they put in a legal

1278
01:07:29,680 --> 01:07:32,880
Speaker 7: septic system. It seems to me that they only follow

1279
01:07:32,920 --> 01:07:35,280
Speaker 7: the rules and behave when they're being watched.

1280
01:07:35,960 --> 01:07:40,880
Speaker 11: Transparency may have disappeared forever for residents. Amost other company town,

1281
01:07:41,680 --> 01:07:46,200
Speaker 11: one of most most lucrative companies, SpaceX, launches its rockets

1282
01:07:46,200 --> 01:07:49,640
Speaker 11: about twenty miles outside of Brownsville on the Texas Gulf

1283
01:07:49,720 --> 01:07:53,320
Speaker 11: Coast near the Mexican border. Most of the residents near

1284
01:07:53,360 --> 01:07:56,640
Speaker 11: the launch site, known as Boka Chica Village or Tehano's

1285
01:07:57,360 --> 01:08:02,080
Speaker 11: and many struggle economically. Lands and beaches are considered sacred

1286
01:08:02,120 --> 01:08:06,200
Speaker 11: by members of the Carazou called Mekrudo tribe of Texas.

1287
01:08:06,800 --> 01:08:09,560
Speaker 11: The area residents were clearly invisible to us during a

1288
01:08:09,600 --> 01:08:12,760
Speaker 11: twenty eighteen press conference when he spoke of how test

1289
01:08:12,800 --> 01:08:15,560
Speaker 11: flights such as those as he planned at the Book

1290
01:08:15,600 --> 01:08:18,920
Speaker 11: at Chica site, were a necessary first step for exploration

1291
01:08:18,960 --> 01:08:22,719
Speaker 11: in the Moon and Mars. The subsequent controversy was reported

1292
01:08:22,720 --> 01:08:25,120
Speaker 11: by a local TV station KRGV.

1293
01:08:25,520 --> 01:08:27,600
Speaker 16: When asked how soon flights would be going to the

1294
01:08:27,640 --> 01:08:30,920
Speaker 16: Moon or Mars, must talked about the necessary test flights

1295
01:08:30,920 --> 01:08:32,679
Speaker 16: that would need to take place first.

1296
01:08:33,240 --> 01:08:36,240
Speaker 7: Most likely it's going to cover having at a Brownsvie location,

1297
01:08:37,320 --> 01:08:39,320
Speaker 7: because we've got a lot of land with nobody around,

1298
01:08:39,600 --> 01:08:40,599
Speaker 7: and so if it was.

1299
01:08:40,600 --> 01:08:41,200
Speaker 10: Up, it's cool.

1300
01:08:41,760 --> 01:08:44,360
Speaker 11: The people at Brownsville didn't agree that if a rocket

1301
01:08:44,360 --> 01:08:47,479
Speaker 11: ship blew up in their neighborhood it would be quote cool.

1302
01:08:48,000 --> 01:08:50,960
Speaker 16: His comment is not sitting well with Gail McConaughey.

1303
01:08:51,280 --> 01:08:53,639
Speaker 17: He's been out here before. He damn sure. I ought

1304
01:08:53,640 --> 01:08:56,519
Speaker 17: to know that he's seen the village. You gotta know

1305
01:08:56,600 --> 01:08:57,679
Speaker 17: that it's not a ghost home.

1306
01:08:58,120 --> 01:09:01,200
Speaker 16: McConaughey and his wife have been living at Bukachka Village

1307
01:09:01,240 --> 01:09:04,559
Speaker 16: every winter for the past eleven years. He says he's

1308
01:09:04,600 --> 01:09:08,280
Speaker 16: offended that he and the other residents are considered nobody.

1309
01:09:08,640 --> 01:09:11,360
Speaker 16: It also raises questions, he adds, about how safe the

1310
01:09:11,439 --> 01:09:13,040
Speaker 16: launches will be in.

1311
01:09:13,000 --> 01:09:16,000
Speaker 17: A rocket that size or any size that would go up,

1312
01:09:16,000 --> 01:09:18,599
Speaker 17: and who knows what might happen. It might start tipping

1313
01:09:18,600 --> 01:09:21,439
Speaker 17: the wrong direction. Who knows if something happened to the

1314
01:09:21,439 --> 01:09:25,360
Speaker 17: engines and explodes, that's cool when you're talking about there's

1315
01:09:25,400 --> 01:09:27,240
Speaker 17: lives here, that's a mile and a half away.

1316
01:09:27,840 --> 01:09:32,719
Speaker 12: Kane's words were prophetic. In subsequent years, Musk's rockets did

1317
01:09:32,840 --> 01:09:35,519
Speaker 12: blow up, such as in April twenty twenty three, when

1318
01:09:35,520 --> 01:09:39,240
Speaker 12: a SpaceX special obliterated the concrete launch pad, leaving behind

1319
01:09:39,240 --> 01:09:44,080
Speaker 12: a massive crater. As Scientific American reported, quote, particular debris

1320
01:09:44,160 --> 01:09:47,400
Speaker 12: as well as concrete and steel shrapnel from the bosched

1321
01:09:47,479 --> 01:09:51,919
Speaker 12: launch scattered far and wide across the surrounding landscape, igniting

1322
01:09:51,960 --> 01:09:56,479
Speaker 12: fires and slamming into protected habitats and public beaches. Ash,

1323
01:09:56,760 --> 01:09:59,760
Speaker 12: dust and sand grains hurled aloft by this first star

1324
01:09:59,800 --> 01:10:03,240
Speaker 12: ship test rained down as far as Port Isabelle, about

1325
01:10:03,240 --> 01:10:07,200
Speaker 12: five miles from the launch site end quote. Another Musk

1326
01:10:07,280 --> 01:10:10,960
Speaker 12: rocket launch, this time from Bokachika, exploded again this past

1327
01:10:11,000 --> 01:10:15,639
Speaker 12: June nineteenth, as reported by WTCHR, whoa in.

1328
01:10:15,600 --> 01:10:19,840
Speaker 14: The skies over South Texas overnight, A massive fireball after

1329
01:10:19,880 --> 01:10:23,679
Speaker 14: a SpaceX rocket exploded during a static rocket test.

1330
01:10:23,760 --> 01:10:26,320
Speaker 8: A ground test for an upcoming launch, the.

1331
01:10:26,360 --> 01:10:27,680
Speaker 4: Ship thirty sixers blew up.

1332
01:10:27,880 --> 01:10:29,240
Speaker 10: Ship thirty six ers blue up.

1333
01:10:29,479 --> 01:10:33,480
Speaker 14: SpaceX, led by Elon Musk, said the Starship Rocket experienced

1334
01:10:33,520 --> 01:10:36,880
Speaker 14: a major anomaly while preparing for its tenth flight test,

1335
01:10:37,280 --> 01:10:39,840
Speaker 14: adding that all personnel are safe and there are no

1336
01:10:39,960 --> 01:10:46,759
Speaker 14: hazards to residents in surrounding communities. The explosion rattled nearby

1337
01:10:46,880 --> 01:10:50,439
Speaker 14: residents who posted videos on social media, one telling my

1338
01:10:50,600 --> 01:10:53,920
Speaker 14: San Antonio News quote, our whole neighborhood felt it. It

1339
01:10:54,040 --> 01:10:55,400
Speaker 14: shook all of our houses.

1340
01:10:56,240 --> 01:10:59,679
Speaker 11: In spite of this record at Mayhem. On Saturday, May third,

1341
01:10:59,760 --> 01:11:03,320
Speaker 11: the Chika Village held an election on whether to incorporate

1342
01:11:03,320 --> 01:11:06,240
Speaker 11: as a city of Starbase. The proposal to create the

1343
01:11:06,280 --> 01:11:09,360
Speaker 11: state's newest city carried by a vote of two hundred

1344
01:11:09,360 --> 01:11:12,960
Speaker 11: and twelve to six. Nearly two thirds of the electorate

1345
01:11:13,040 --> 01:11:18,160
Speaker 11: lived near SpaceX's launch site. Overwhelmingly the voters were Musk employees.

1346
01:11:18,840 --> 01:11:23,040
Speaker 11: All three candidates elected to Starbas's New City Commission ran unopposed,

1347
01:11:23,520 --> 01:11:26,720
Speaker 11: and one without putting up a single campaign sign or

1348
01:11:26,760 --> 01:11:31,280
Speaker 11: hosting a single candidate forum. All three were employees of

1349
01:11:31,400 --> 01:11:32,760
Speaker 11: Musk and SpaceX.

1350
01:11:33,640 --> 01:11:36,799
Speaker 12: As The Texas Tribune has reported, the new city government

1351
01:11:36,880 --> 01:11:40,160
Speaker 12: increased control over the nearby public beach, revered by local

1352
01:11:40,160 --> 01:11:43,400
Speaker 12: indigenous people. Some local residents feel the creation of the

1353
01:11:43,400 --> 01:11:46,720
Speaker 12: company town gives them even less power to protect what's

1354
01:11:46,760 --> 01:11:47,960
Speaker 12: seen as a local treasure.

1355
01:11:48,400 --> 01:11:51,599
Speaker 18: Starbase is only about one and a half square miles. It's,

1356
01:11:51,640 --> 01:11:54,400
Speaker 18: of course, the home of SpaceX, and the main goal

1357
01:11:54,600 --> 01:11:58,600
Speaker 18: is sending humans to Mars. According to the FAA, Starbas

1358
01:11:58,600 --> 01:12:02,000
Speaker 18: is aiming for twenty five rocket launches a year. But

1359
01:12:02,080 --> 01:12:05,280
Speaker 18: this is all coming with a bit of controversy, especially

1360
01:12:05,360 --> 01:12:07,160
Speaker 18: over access to the popular.

1361
01:12:06,760 --> 01:12:07,880
Speaker 6: Boca Chica Beach.

1362
01:12:08,240 --> 01:12:12,280
Speaker 18: Any SpaceX rocket launcher engine test requires closing a local

1363
01:12:12,360 --> 01:12:15,519
Speaker 18: highway to the beach, and some say Starbase is giving

1364
01:12:15,600 --> 01:12:19,080
Speaker 18: Musk too much control. People gathered at the beach Saturday

1365
01:12:19,160 --> 01:12:20,480
Speaker 18: night to protest.

1366
01:12:20,640 --> 01:12:22,840
Speaker 7: They're just tearing it up and doing whatever they want

1367
01:12:23,040 --> 01:12:24,800
Speaker 7: because they want to gentrify. They want to be a

1368
01:12:24,880 --> 01:12:28,360
Speaker 7: city by themselves. When you gentify the land, you're gentrifying

1369
01:12:28,680 --> 01:12:29,719
Speaker 7: the soul of the people.

1370
01:12:30,520 --> 01:12:33,559
Speaker 11: Juan Massias, the protester you just heard, is the chair

1371
01:12:33,600 --> 01:12:37,600
Speaker 11: of the Carazau called the Crudeo tribe of Texas. He

1372
01:12:37,680 --> 01:12:41,320
Speaker 11: told the Texas Tribune quote, these hills are sacred to us.

1373
01:12:42,120 --> 01:12:44,240
Speaker 11: They don't know the history of the land, and they're

1374
01:12:44,280 --> 01:12:47,479
Speaker 11: trying to erase that. Of course, Musk has a history

1375
01:12:47,520 --> 01:12:51,559
Speaker 11: as well, is one characterized by labor abuses.

1376
01:12:51,800 --> 01:12:54,519
Speaker 12: Like the Robert Barons who ruled as emperors over their

1377
01:12:54,560 --> 01:12:58,799
Speaker 12: Gilded Age company towns. Musk has been accused of firing

1378
01:12:58,960 --> 01:13:03,479
Speaker 12: union organizers at his Austin gigafactory. Workers claim Musk either

1379
01:13:03,520 --> 01:13:07,040
Speaker 12: didn't pay them for overtime or shortchange them. Those same

1380
01:13:07,080 --> 01:13:10,719
Speaker 12: workers charged that records were faked to document their safety training,

1381
01:13:11,120 --> 01:13:14,479
Speaker 12: and according to the Texas Observer of Publication I'm glad

1382
01:13:14,560 --> 01:13:17,840
Speaker 12: to contribute to, one worker said he was forced to

1383
01:13:17,920 --> 01:13:20,760
Speaker 12: work in a flooded part of the factory and had

1384
01:13:20,800 --> 01:13:23,599
Speaker 12: to work on a metal roof at night without lights.

1385
01:13:24,040 --> 01:13:26,280
Speaker 12: These are clear POSHA violations.

1386
01:13:26,840 --> 01:13:29,880
Speaker 11: Is highly unlikely that the state of Texas will require Musk

1387
01:13:29,960 --> 01:13:34,679
Speaker 11: to provide any transparency about his business practices. Governor Abbott

1388
01:13:34,680 --> 01:13:38,320
Speaker 11: recently refused the request of a media outlet, the Texas Newsroom,

1389
01:13:38,720 --> 01:13:42,200
Speaker 11: to release emails between him and Musk, claiming the extensive

1390
01:13:42,240 --> 01:13:46,280
Speaker 11: communication between the pair was quote intimate and potentially quote

1391
01:13:46,320 --> 01:13:50,720
Speaker 11: embarrassing and therefore not a public interest. With so much

1392
01:13:50,720 --> 01:13:53,759
Speaker 11: a Musk enterprise in the state, operating in company towns

1393
01:13:53,760 --> 01:13:58,599
Speaker 11: he politically controls on county land with little oversight. Musk

1394
01:13:58,680 --> 01:14:01,719
Speaker 11: has become the lone star state. It's modern, unchecked robber

1395
01:14:01,800 --> 01:14:05,160
Speaker 11: baron extraordinaire, and with the aid of his on again

1396
01:14:05,360 --> 01:14:08,639
Speaker 11: off again allied Donald Trump, he has blazed a trail

1397
01:14:08,720 --> 01:14:12,760
Speaker 11: for other tech billionaires. When Trump ran for president last year,

1398
01:14:12,800 --> 01:14:15,639
Speaker 11: he floated a proposal to build what he called quote

1399
01:14:15,680 --> 01:14:20,160
Speaker 11: freedom cities across the country, pushed by oligarchs like Peter Thiel,

1400
01:14:20,600 --> 01:14:24,720
Speaker 11: Mark Andresen and Sam Altman, who ironically now has a

1401
01:14:24,720 --> 01:14:27,599
Speaker 11: bit of a fit and a fight with Elon Musk.

1402
01:14:27,600 --> 01:14:30,679
Speaker 11: They hate each other and it's really funny. These proposed

1403
01:14:30,680 --> 01:14:35,240
Speaker 11: fiefdoms would function as libertarian oasis. Coal miners were once

1404
01:14:35,360 --> 01:14:39,120
Speaker 11: paid in scrip, and the federal government banned script in

1405
01:14:39,240 --> 01:14:42,960
Speaker 11: nineteen thirty eight. But nevertheless, Jeff Bezos already uses something

1406
01:14:43,040 --> 01:14:46,559
Speaker 11: he calls quote swag bucks that are redeemable at Amazon

1407
01:14:46,600 --> 01:14:49,400
Speaker 11: to reward those in the company he deems his most

1408
01:14:49,439 --> 01:14:53,639
Speaker 11: productive workers. Workers in the freedom cities under discussion would

1409
01:14:53,720 --> 01:14:58,160
Speaker 11: not earn us legal tender, but would get cryptocurrency instead,

1410
01:14:58,280 --> 01:15:02,599
Speaker 11: the historically stay store of value that has never ripped

1411
01:15:02,600 --> 01:15:06,519
Speaker 11: off thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of

1412
01:15:06,560 --> 01:15:10,920
Speaker 11: people in the municipal monstrosities imagined in the scheme. Workers

1413
01:15:10,920 --> 01:15:13,600
Speaker 11: would be paid not in US currency, but, as I

1414
01:15:13,720 --> 01:15:18,080
Speaker 11: just said, this insane highly volatile cryptocurrency. These corporate havens

1415
01:15:18,120 --> 01:15:22,520
Speaker 11: would operate with the barest nods to workplace safety, environmental protections,

1416
01:15:22,560 --> 01:15:26,760
Speaker 11: and job security, and god forbid, might even scam their

1417
01:15:26,800 --> 01:15:31,680
Speaker 11: workers by trading in that same highly volatile cryptocurrency that

1418
01:15:31,720 --> 01:15:35,000
Speaker 11: they're paying them in back in bash Stop. Chap Ambrose

1419
01:15:35,160 --> 01:15:38,760
Speaker 11: thinks we can still embrace the future with that surrendering

1420
01:15:38,800 --> 01:15:43,040
Speaker 11: a more old fashioned concept of community. He helps them

1421
01:15:43,120 --> 01:15:44,679
Speaker 11: must one day sees the light.

1422
01:15:47,080 --> 01:15:49,960
Speaker 7: I truly hope the borrowing company succeeds in its efforts.

1423
01:15:50,360 --> 01:15:53,120
Speaker 7: I think tunneling makes sense, and if they can improve

1424
01:15:53,240 --> 01:15:56,559
Speaker 7: traffic into Austin and around it, that'd be great. But

1425
01:15:56,920 --> 01:16:00,040
Speaker 7: you have to be better neighbors. Texas has strongly and

1426
01:16:00,120 --> 01:16:03,720
Speaker 7: owner rights and you can do pretty much what you

1427
01:16:03,760 --> 01:16:06,800
Speaker 7: want on your land. However, Texas law also says that

1428
01:16:06,840 --> 01:16:09,760
Speaker 7: we share the air and you share the groundwater with

1429
01:16:09,840 --> 01:16:12,040
Speaker 7: me and my one year old son. So if you're

1430
01:16:12,040 --> 01:16:15,040
Speaker 7: going to come to my neighborhood and build the fastest

1431
01:16:15,080 --> 01:16:19,360
Speaker 7: and most efficient tunneling operation, then I expect the most

1432
01:16:19,400 --> 01:16:23,320
Speaker 7: innovative and transparent safety systems to go alongside it.

1433
01:16:24,400 --> 01:16:27,439
Speaker 11: The struggle against the absolute power wielded by the rulers

1434
01:16:27,479 --> 01:16:31,320
Speaker 11: of the Gilded Age's company towns led to actual battles

1435
01:16:31,680 --> 01:16:36,200
Speaker 11: with literal casualties on American soil. Doctor Pearson reminded us

1436
01:16:36,479 --> 01:16:39,240
Speaker 11: that the hard life and the Gilded Era, the era

1437
01:16:39,360 --> 01:16:43,919
Speaker 11: of company towns, represented an American norm rather than an exception,

1438
01:16:44,920 --> 01:16:48,240
Speaker 11: and because of Musk Teal and other modern robber barons,

1439
01:16:48,560 --> 01:16:52,479
Speaker 11: the battles fought in Pullman, Illinois and Ludlow, Colorado might

1440
01:16:52,560 --> 01:16:53,960
Speaker 11: have to be fought once again.

1441
01:16:54,439 --> 01:16:57,040
Speaker 13: Some of you folks may be aware of Jefferson Cowie

1442
01:16:57,040 --> 01:16:59,879
Speaker 13: and Nick Salvatory's book, which he calls The Great Exception,

1443
01:17:00,439 --> 01:17:03,439
Speaker 13: and they argue that, you know, most of American history

1444
01:17:03,479 --> 01:17:05,360
Speaker 13: is like the guilded. Yeah, we had a forty to

1445
01:17:05,360 --> 01:17:07,920
Speaker 13: fifty year period from I don't know, the thirties the

1446
01:17:08,000 --> 01:17:11,080
Speaker 13: seventies when things were kind of better, right, you know

1447
01:17:11,280 --> 01:17:13,959
Speaker 13: what Blue Magas and Red magas alike like to celebrate,

1448
01:17:14,320 --> 01:17:16,479
Speaker 13: But the fact is, you know, there's things were pretty

1449
01:17:16,479 --> 01:17:19,639
Speaker 13: exploitative then as well. And so what kind of lessons

1450
01:17:19,680 --> 01:17:23,880
Speaker 13: can we learn from resistance to capitalism in its various forms?

1451
01:17:23,880 --> 01:17:26,360
Speaker 13: And I think the key one is to trust one another.

1452
01:17:26,720 --> 01:17:30,400
Speaker 13: There's no substitute for working class solidarity. Stop having illusions

1453
01:17:30,400 --> 01:17:32,120
Speaker 13: in the Democratic Party. They're not going to save you.

1454
01:17:32,520 --> 01:17:36,280
Speaker 13: And so to see, you know, where where there are

1455
01:17:36,840 --> 01:17:40,599
Speaker 13: victories when when workers are are united, and we see

1456
01:17:40,640 --> 01:17:43,000
Speaker 13: a little bit of that, you know, kicking ice agents

1457
01:17:43,000 --> 01:17:46,120
Speaker 13: out of towns, right, I mean, that's politicians aren't helping

1458
01:17:46,200 --> 01:17:49,280
Speaker 13: us there, that's you know, collective action of working class people.

1459
01:17:49,280 --> 01:17:51,840
Speaker 13: It's not formal unions, but it's something, you know, I

1460
01:17:51,880 --> 01:17:55,120
Speaker 13: see hope. I see hope in the mass mobilization of

1461
01:17:55,479 --> 01:17:59,080
Speaker 13: working class people irrespective of race, gender, class, and any

1462
01:17:59,120 --> 01:18:00,320
Speaker 13: other identity.

1463
01:18:00,680 --> 01:18:03,120
Speaker 11: I'm Michael Phillips, So you can find me on substack

1464
01:18:03,200 --> 01:18:06,960
Speaker 11: at doctor m Phillips two thousand and one, on Blue

1465
01:18:07,000 --> 01:18:12,120
Speaker 11: Sky and Facebook. Google my name and quote White Metropolis.

1466
01:18:11,760 --> 01:18:13,680
Speaker 12: And I'm Stephen Wana Charlie. You can find me on

1467
01:18:13,720 --> 01:18:16,439
Speaker 12: Blue Sky, and I've got a Patreon and all those

1468
01:18:16,479 --> 01:18:19,479
Speaker 12: other things. Thank you for listening, and we hope that

1469
01:18:19,560 --> 01:18:24,680
Speaker 12: you found this delightful topic about Elon Musk's desire to

1470
01:18:24,680 --> 01:18:28,160
Speaker 12: bring back company towns informative. Thanks for listening.

1471
01:18:44,640 --> 01:18:47,720
Speaker 10: Hello, hell helloo, and welcome to get up and here.

1472
01:18:48,400 --> 01:18:52,360
Speaker 10: I'm Andrew Siege otherwise doing this andresm on YouTube and

1473
01:18:52,560 --> 01:18:53,240
Speaker 10: I'm here.

1474
01:18:53,040 --> 01:18:56,839
Speaker 8: With James, just James, and have a YouTube.

1475
01:18:57,439 --> 01:18:59,960
Speaker 10: Well than just James, I mean, I love talking to you,

1476
01:19:00,240 --> 01:19:01,840
Speaker 10: so in more than just James to me.

1477
01:19:02,320 --> 01:19:05,000
Speaker 8: Oh, thank you, Andrew. It's very sweet. I enjoyed these two.

1478
01:19:05,120 --> 01:19:05,920
Speaker 8: It's the phone for me.

1479
01:19:06,520 --> 01:19:08,479
Speaker 10: Yeah, So I really I'd like to get into one

1480
01:19:08,520 --> 01:19:11,679
Speaker 10: of the hotter topics as of late. Not the heat,

1481
01:19:12,040 --> 01:19:18,120
Speaker 10: so that is a hot topic. But yeah, YEAHI Artificial intelligence.

1482
01:19:18,120 --> 01:19:19,960
Speaker 8: Oh good, Yeah, my favorite thing.

1483
01:19:20,520 --> 01:19:23,800
Speaker 10: Yeah, and more specifically the ways in which AI has

1484
01:19:23,880 --> 01:19:28,040
Speaker 10: contributed to and accentuated alienation and the capitalism and the

1485
01:19:28,080 --> 01:19:31,240
Speaker 10: state in the twenty first century. So that's a mouthful,

1486
01:19:31,280 --> 01:19:32,960
Speaker 10: but it's obviously very important.

1487
01:19:33,200 --> 01:19:34,479
Speaker 8: Okay, Yeah, I like you so lot.

1488
01:19:34,920 --> 01:19:38,599
Speaker 10: In my opinion, alienation with all its meaning is really

1489
01:19:39,280 --> 01:19:41,000
Speaker 10: is one of those words that you could really use

1490
01:19:41,040 --> 01:19:45,960
Speaker 10: to describe the current side guys, the experience of separation

1491
01:19:46,240 --> 01:19:49,519
Speaker 10: from yourself, from your work, from the products of your work,

1492
01:19:49,640 --> 01:19:54,160
Speaker 10: from your community, all these things both philosophical and material

1493
01:19:54,280 --> 01:19:58,080
Speaker 10: get wrapped up into this concept of alienation because it's

1494
01:19:58,080 --> 01:20:01,960
Speaker 10: both an experience, it's something that people feel internally, it

1495
01:20:02,000 --> 01:20:04,639
Speaker 10: describes the way that they see their lives, and it's

1496
01:20:04,640 --> 01:20:09,880
Speaker 10: also just a fact of how people work into society.

1497
01:20:10,280 --> 01:20:13,800
Speaker 10: You're dispossessed of the products of a labor and you're

1498
01:20:13,840 --> 01:20:16,960
Speaker 10: disconnected from the process of aliable and the outcomes of ilabor.

1499
01:20:18,040 --> 01:20:20,599
Speaker 10: And this is of course all thanks to development of

1500
01:20:20,640 --> 01:20:26,600
Speaker 10: capitalism and industrialization and this development of a mass society

1501
01:20:26,760 --> 01:20:31,160
Speaker 10: quote unquote with all the apathy and loss of agency

1502
01:20:31,240 --> 01:20:34,600
Speaker 10: and weaken social fabric that generates.

1503
01:20:35,200 --> 01:20:37,960
Speaker 8: Yeah, it's I think alienation is like something we don't

1504
01:20:37,960 --> 01:20:41,559
Speaker 8: talk about enough. It's like the thing that ties together

1505
01:20:42,120 --> 01:20:46,800
Speaker 8: that despare the loneliness. The loneliness is is maybe like

1506
01:20:48,479 --> 01:20:51,719
Speaker 8: it's a way that capitalism has come to talk about

1507
01:20:51,760 --> 01:20:55,960
Speaker 8: alienation without acknowledging the capitalism is creating alienation. Every sort

1508
01:20:55,960 --> 01:21:00,360
Speaker 8: of developed state in the colonial core have a knowledge

1509
01:21:00,479 --> 01:21:02,920
Speaker 8: loneliness is a problem. Right, I saw Gavin Newsome was

1510
01:21:03,000 --> 01:21:08,200
Speaker 8: with launching a loneliness campaign. But like the system is

1511
01:21:08,200 --> 01:21:11,600
Speaker 8: a problem. The alienation is created by the way that

1512
01:21:11,960 --> 01:21:14,960
Speaker 8: things are and like we can't fixate without changing the

1513
01:21:14,960 --> 01:21:15,839
Speaker 8: way those things.

1514
01:21:15,640 --> 01:21:20,160
Speaker 10: Are exactly exactly. It comes down to conditions. I mean,

1515
01:21:20,240 --> 01:21:24,280
Speaker 10: in particular, I think we see alienation manifest in most

1516
01:21:24,520 --> 01:21:28,240
Speaker 10: in our relationships, of course, and in our works. And

1517
01:21:28,280 --> 01:21:31,960
Speaker 10: it's been an issue for some decades now. And what

1518
01:21:32,080 --> 01:21:36,320
Speaker 10: I'm really intrigued by is, you know, this has been

1519
01:21:36,360 --> 01:21:40,200
Speaker 10: an issue for a while, but how is AI interacting

1520
01:21:40,560 --> 01:21:43,920
Speaker 10: with these issues? How is EI impacting the alienation that

1521
01:21:43,960 --> 01:21:47,120
Speaker 10: we already experience under the system.

1522
01:21:47,560 --> 01:21:52,680
Speaker 8: Yeah, that's fascinating. I'm currently teaching a class at the

1523
01:21:52,840 --> 01:21:57,720
Speaker 8: community college to class about pre sixteen hundred history, and like,

1524
01:21:58,479 --> 01:22:00,320
Speaker 8: I teach a little bit every year, right, and every

1525
01:22:00,400 --> 01:22:04,240
Speaker 8: year I've seen what AI use. But this year this

1526
01:22:04,560 --> 01:22:08,800
Speaker 8: is fully blackpilled me, Like, I don't quite know how

1527
01:22:08,840 --> 01:22:13,880
Speaker 8: to describe the feelings I'm experiencing, I guess, but it's

1528
01:22:13,920 --> 01:22:17,160
Speaker 8: class I assigned like David Graeber, I assigned Jim Scott.

1529
01:22:17,400 --> 01:22:20,120
Speaker 8: I assigned Charles Tilly on state making and war making, right,

1530
01:22:20,200 --> 01:22:25,120
Speaker 8: like very basic left libertarian kind of text, right, which

1531
01:22:25,400 --> 01:22:28,280
Speaker 8: for many people will be the first time they encounter

1532
01:22:28,360 --> 01:22:31,360
Speaker 8: the concept of like what if no state? What if

1533
01:22:31,400 --> 01:22:34,960
Speaker 8: state bad? And I think they're all writing in a

1534
01:22:34,960 --> 01:22:37,479
Speaker 8: way that's very approachable to people who don't, you know,

1535
01:22:37,520 --> 01:22:41,479
Speaker 8: like dense academic writing is annoying and pretentious and I

1536
01:22:41,479 --> 01:22:44,160
Speaker 8: don't like it. Every time I do this, Couse, it

1537
01:22:44,280 --> 01:22:45,760
Speaker 8: used to be the case of like thirty to forty ten,

1538
01:22:45,800 --> 01:22:48,640
Speaker 8: the students would be like, holy fuck. Whether they like

1539
01:22:48,680 --> 01:22:51,559
Speaker 8: it or not, it's a new concept and it's cool,

1540
01:22:51,640 --> 01:22:54,880
Speaker 8: and they engage with it in like a passionate way,

1541
01:22:54,960 --> 01:22:59,439
Speaker 8: a human way. Every year it's got worse, and now,

1542
01:22:59,479 --> 01:23:02,000
Speaker 8: like I can think of two students out of one

1543
01:23:02,040 --> 01:23:05,719
Speaker 8: hundred who are like engaging with it in any human way,

1544
01:23:06,000 --> 01:23:08,400
Speaker 8: and I'm sure most of them, I would imagine they

1545
01:23:08,479 --> 01:23:10,920
Speaker 8: buy the AI, summarized the text, or in many cases

1546
01:23:10,920 --> 01:23:14,760
Speaker 8: they certainly have used AI to just respond. I let

1547
01:23:14,800 --> 01:23:17,439
Speaker 8: my students respond in ways that they feel appropriate, right,

1548
01:23:17,520 --> 01:23:21,040
Speaker 8: so that they could do videos or different things if

1549
01:23:21,080 --> 01:23:23,200
Speaker 8: they wanted to do like a they wanted to make

1550
01:23:23,200 --> 01:23:24,960
Speaker 8: a video about instead of doing an essay, That's fine

1551
01:23:24,960 --> 01:23:26,240
Speaker 8: with me. I don't care. I just want them to

1552
01:23:26,240 --> 01:23:29,719
Speaker 8: read the shit and think about it. But like, there's

1553
01:23:29,840 --> 01:23:32,479
Speaker 8: been no human reaction, and that's so sad to me.

1554
01:23:32,600 --> 01:23:35,120
Speaker 8: Like the reason they teach is to get young people

1555
01:23:35,479 --> 01:23:37,840
Speaker 8: to see the world differently. It certainly isn't for the

1556
01:23:37,840 --> 01:23:42,200
Speaker 8: fucking money, And that's just i'man capable of doing that now,

1557
01:23:42,439 --> 01:23:45,639
Speaker 8: or like I can't get through that alienation that like

1558
01:23:46,439 --> 01:23:51,719
Speaker 8: I can't get people to engage, and like, think about it. Obviously,

1559
01:23:51,760 --> 01:23:53,280
Speaker 8: I got to work that shit out, right, Like this

1560
01:23:53,479 --> 01:23:56,519
Speaker 8: generation of people who went through high school when AI

1561
01:23:56,640 --> 01:24:00,000
Speaker 8: with a thing and detecting AI, use in long form

1562
01:24:00,120 --> 01:24:02,280
Speaker 8: writing was not very well developed, so they were able

1563
01:24:02,280 --> 01:24:04,000
Speaker 8: to use it instead of doing long form writing and

1564
01:24:04,840 --> 01:24:08,600
Speaker 8: maybe even reading long form, And like, I have to

1565
01:24:08,640 --> 01:24:11,479
Speaker 8: work out how to get those people to engage, not

1566
01:24:11,880 --> 01:24:15,519
Speaker 8: to be so sort of alienated from the concept of

1567
01:24:15,880 --> 01:24:19,160
Speaker 8: reading and absorbing big ideas. But I haven't fuckly worked

1568
01:24:19,200 --> 01:24:19,759
Speaker 8: it out yet.

1569
01:24:20,360 --> 01:24:23,120
Speaker 10: Yeah, it's a it's a really big issue, and it's

1570
01:24:23,280 --> 01:24:27,280
Speaker 10: only cruent, you know, as EI expands, I mean, it's

1571
01:24:27,320 --> 01:24:30,160
Speaker 10: not so much the focus of this episode, but it

1572
01:24:30,240 --> 01:24:32,439
Speaker 10: is something that I wanted to touch on. You know,

1573
01:24:32,520 --> 01:24:34,800
Speaker 10: people used to be doing fine without it, used to

1574
01:24:34,840 --> 01:24:38,120
Speaker 10: be able to function without it three years ago, and

1575
01:24:38,160 --> 01:24:40,680
Speaker 10: now you talk to them and they can't live without it.

1576
01:24:40,680 --> 01:24:44,080
Speaker 10: They have to run everything through AI. You know, people

1577
01:24:44,120 --> 01:24:50,000
Speaker 10: have offloaded most of their cognitive processes the yeah, yeah, yeah,

1578
01:24:50,040 --> 01:24:52,320
Speaker 10: you know, and yeah, you know, we talk about the

1579
01:24:52,400 --> 01:24:55,760
Speaker 10: environmental impact of that, the way the data centers are

1580
01:24:55,840 --> 01:24:59,360
Speaker 10: damage in the environment, taking fresh water and taking vast

1581
01:24:59,400 --> 01:25:02,200
Speaker 10: amounts of any from the system. So we all rely

1582
01:25:02,320 --> 01:25:05,000
Speaker 10: upon to live and you know, we could, as we

1583
01:25:05,080 --> 01:25:09,200
Speaker 10: touched on, talk about called schools and the education systems

1584
01:25:09,200 --> 01:25:12,880
Speaker 10: pretty much falling apart. Yeah, I mean, I know you're

1585
01:25:12,880 --> 01:25:18,880
Speaker 10: one of those, you know, genuinely passionate professors. But I've

1586
01:25:19,000 --> 01:25:23,240
Speaker 10: noticed is this this whole fast now in many sections

1587
01:25:23,240 --> 01:25:27,559
Speaker 10: of the education system where you have students he I

1588
01:25:27,640 --> 01:25:32,479
Speaker 10: summarize in material if even doing that, you know, submit

1589
01:25:32,560 --> 01:25:36,240
Speaker 10: an EI generated essays or AI generated material, and the

1590
01:25:36,280 --> 01:25:38,120
Speaker 10: professors just heah, I created.

1591
01:25:38,560 --> 01:25:40,360
Speaker 8: Yeah, I've heard of this.

1592
01:25:40,800 --> 01:25:43,800
Speaker 10: So it's just one one big puppet schew, you know,

1593
01:25:43,960 --> 01:25:46,160
Speaker 10: one one big fast god.

1594
01:25:47,560 --> 01:25:51,200
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, exactly, one big charade, which you know, to

1595
01:25:51,240 --> 01:25:53,400
Speaker 8: an extent, education has always just been that, right, one

1596
01:25:53,400 --> 01:25:56,920
Speaker 8: big fast. But there are things that are redeemable about it.

1597
01:25:57,120 --> 01:25:59,519
Speaker 8: And I'm just talking about teaching now, and I'll stop

1598
01:25:59,560 --> 01:26:01,840
Speaker 8: in a minute. There's very little demand for in person

1599
01:26:01,880 --> 01:26:06,240
Speaker 8: classes compared to online classes anymore, so like that makes

1600
01:26:06,280 --> 01:26:10,000
Speaker 8: it harder for us to break through that alienation, right,

1601
01:26:10,080 --> 01:26:14,559
Speaker 8: Like there's something special about sitting in a room and

1602
01:26:15,040 --> 01:26:17,240
Speaker 8: talking just just find it's just like being like we're

1603
01:26:17,280 --> 01:26:20,440
Speaker 8: going to be here for ninety minutes, none of us.

1604
01:26:20,479 --> 01:26:21,919
Speaker 10: That's a dynamic, yeah.

1605
01:26:21,920 --> 01:26:23,920
Speaker 8: And it's an important dynamic. Like the function of the

1606
01:26:24,000 --> 01:26:27,120
Speaker 8: university is to fucking turn out people with stem degrees

1607
01:26:27,160 --> 01:26:29,360
Speaker 8: who can go on and make shitty apps we don't need.

1608
01:26:30,160 --> 01:26:33,639
Speaker 8: It's to prepare us to be citizens in the community, exactly,

1609
01:26:33,960 --> 01:26:37,599
Speaker 8: and we are failing at that. And yes, intead, I'm

1610
01:26:37,640 --> 01:26:39,400
Speaker 8: just great and chet GPT all day know.

1611
01:26:40,200 --> 01:26:42,280
Speaker 10: Yeah, And that's that's a big piece of the puzzle

1612
01:26:42,280 --> 01:26:46,439
Speaker 10: that we end up missing. Because the way in which

1613
01:26:47,240 --> 01:26:49,559
Speaker 10: the sort of dynamics and the connections that you would

1614
01:26:49,560 --> 01:26:53,000
Speaker 10: get from the university class or I'm beyond just sort

1615
01:26:53,040 --> 01:26:55,519
Speaker 10: of connections in general is lacking in an alienated rule

1616
01:26:55,600 --> 01:26:59,599
Speaker 10: and it's worsened by you know, the instruction of the eye.

1617
01:27:00,600 --> 01:27:04,760
Speaker 10: I managed to complete most of my education, most of

1618
01:27:04,800 --> 01:27:09,880
Speaker 10: my bachelor's degree, that is, prior to the pandemic. Right,

1619
01:27:09,960 --> 01:27:14,080
Speaker 10: I was nearing the end of my third year when lockdown,

1620
01:27:14,360 --> 01:27:15,840
Speaker 10: you know, came into fourth and then it just I

1621
01:27:15,880 --> 01:27:18,720
Speaker 10: did my entire fourth year online And honestly, I'm so

1622
01:27:18,880 --> 01:27:22,479
Speaker 10: glad that I was able to do my classes in person,

1623
01:27:23,040 --> 01:27:26,799
Speaker 10: you know, And I'm so glad that I did my classes,

1624
01:27:27,600 --> 01:27:29,599
Speaker 10: you know, entirely on my own in a time where

1625
01:27:30,320 --> 01:27:33,360
Speaker 10: you know, yeah, I was not a thing. You know,

1626
01:27:33,439 --> 01:27:35,479
Speaker 10: there were times where you know, it probably feels like,

1627
01:27:35,520 --> 01:27:37,960
Speaker 10: oh my god, it's so stressful, like, but he just

1628
01:27:38,000 --> 01:27:40,680
Speaker 10: had a buckle alone. You had to buckle down and

1629
01:27:40,920 --> 01:27:44,080
Speaker 10: figure out a way to get it done. And because

1630
01:27:44,080 --> 01:27:47,360
Speaker 10: we could talk about the perverse incentives of breeding systems

1631
01:27:47,479 --> 01:27:50,839
Speaker 10: and schools and how that sort of pushes some students

1632
01:27:50,880 --> 01:27:54,639
Speaker 10: who you know, may have learning difficulties or time matgement

1633
01:27:54,680 --> 01:27:56,840
Speaker 10: difficulties or whatever to actually do their stuff, they end

1634
01:27:56,920 --> 01:28:00,240
Speaker 10: up going down the air route. But yeah, I mean,

1635
01:28:00,360 --> 01:28:03,840
Speaker 10: even just looking back at my experience, because lockdown hits

1636
01:28:04,120 --> 01:28:07,320
Speaker 10: during the semester, I had a writing class that I

1637
01:28:07,439 --> 01:28:09,760
Speaker 10: was a part of, and every time we went into class,

1638
01:28:09,800 --> 01:28:13,240
Speaker 10: it was so dynamic, was so lively, it was so engaging.

1639
01:28:13,479 --> 01:28:15,479
Speaker 10: All the ideas were just bouncing off for each other.

1640
01:28:16,560 --> 01:28:20,599
Speaker 10: After the lockdown, that class completely feels a lout. Everything

1641
01:28:20,640 --> 01:28:23,080
Speaker 10: that we were getting from it was just absent because

1642
01:28:23,120 --> 01:28:28,000
Speaker 10: we were entirely online and yeah, it's really a struggle.

1643
01:28:28,080 --> 01:28:31,000
Speaker 10: And I think social life, not just coming out of

1644
01:28:31,080 --> 01:28:35,760
Speaker 10: the education conversation, social life, community and connection all ends

1645
01:28:35,880 --> 01:28:39,679
Speaker 10: up lacking because of the aliineas and nature of the system,

1646
01:28:39,800 --> 01:28:41,759
Speaker 10: the way that things have been set up. But also

1647
01:28:42,320 --> 01:28:45,160
Speaker 10: AI is playing a major role too. AI in a

1648
01:28:45,280 --> 01:28:48,400
Speaker 10: sense as a category is you know, you can have

1649
01:28:48,439 --> 01:28:52,040
Speaker 10: a whole discussion about that quibbolo for definitions. But in

1650
01:28:52,160 --> 01:28:54,080
Speaker 10: a sense AI has already been playing a major role

1651
01:28:54,120 --> 01:28:57,439
Speaker 10: into how people socialize even before these large language models

1652
01:28:57,520 --> 01:28:59,760
Speaker 10: came to be in because you have a sort of

1653
01:29:00,040 --> 01:29:04,360
Speaker 10: official intelligence in the algorithms that people interact with on

1654
01:29:04,479 --> 01:29:08,400
Speaker 10: social media. You know, people have the content they consume

1655
01:29:08,640 --> 01:29:14,439
Speaker 10: being curated by algorithms. They end up in these sort

1656
01:29:14,479 --> 01:29:19,160
Speaker 10: of echo chambers, these reinforcement loops and outrage bait and

1657
01:29:19,240 --> 01:29:24,040
Speaker 10: then dopamine loops, and all those things have lended to

1658
01:29:24,400 --> 01:29:28,400
Speaker 10: people spending more and more time online because you know,

1659
01:29:28,680 --> 01:29:32,680
Speaker 10: it's hitting that part of the brain, and everybody is

1660
01:29:32,720 --> 01:29:35,240
Speaker 10: hyper connected and always online, and more and more of

1661
01:29:35,360 --> 01:29:38,160
Speaker 10: life takes place on the Internet, and that has left

1662
01:29:38,200 --> 01:29:45,120
Speaker 10: people feeling isolated. I think loneliness is obviously not entirely

1663
01:29:45,280 --> 01:29:51,040
Speaker 10: the result of social media and now AI. But the

1664
01:29:51,160 --> 01:29:54,599
Speaker 10: sort of irony is that loneliness has been a side

1665
01:29:54,600 --> 01:29:59,400
Speaker 10: effect of this digital hyper connection. They may look at

1666
01:29:59,439 --> 01:30:02,479
Speaker 10: some of the fact that are contributing to this, this

1667
01:30:02,800 --> 01:30:05,760
Speaker 10: already isolated nature of our world. Right, you know, people

1668
01:30:05,800 --> 01:30:08,160
Speaker 10: won't have as much free time. You know, there's in

1669
01:30:08,200 --> 01:30:10,760
Speaker 10: as much public space as there used to be. Some

1670
01:30:10,880 --> 01:30:14,280
Speaker 10: people have no public space available to them. Public spaces

1671
01:30:14,320 --> 01:30:17,080
Speaker 10: that do exist are not open in the times when

1672
01:30:17,200 --> 01:30:20,000
Speaker 10: people are available to go to them. Libraries are a

1673
01:30:20,000 --> 01:30:22,160
Speaker 10: famous example. A lot of them are you know, not

1674
01:30:22,439 --> 01:30:26,360
Speaker 10: open for working people pretty much. And then people who

1675
01:30:26,400 --> 01:30:28,320
Speaker 10: do want to go out and socialize and stuff. You know,

1676
01:30:28,360 --> 01:30:30,439
Speaker 10: you're dealing with the higher cost of living, so there's

1677
01:30:30,520 --> 01:30:33,160
Speaker 10: little resources that you can use to you know, go

1678
01:30:33,280 --> 01:30:34,960
Speaker 10: and put yourself out there because you have to spend

1679
01:30:34,960 --> 01:30:38,240
Speaker 10: money to go to places. And then it also just

1680
01:30:38,320 --> 01:30:42,080
Speaker 10: burnt out energy wise because of you know, the long

1681
01:30:42,160 --> 01:30:44,320
Speaker 10: work week, long work hours, just trying to make against

1682
01:30:44,360 --> 01:30:49,479
Speaker 10: meet psychological to all of that. Yeah, and so part

1683
01:30:49,560 --> 01:30:52,000
Speaker 10: of what AI has been doing is pushing these AI

1684
01:30:52,120 --> 01:30:55,200
Speaker 10: companions on people. And you know, I don't mean to

1685
01:30:55,320 --> 01:30:57,320
Speaker 10: fare Mongo anything because I know there are a lot

1686
01:30:57,360 --> 01:30:59,920
Speaker 10: of people who reject AI and who stand against AI.

1687
01:31:00,160 --> 01:31:02,560
Speaker 10: And of course that could just be the bubble that

1688
01:31:02,640 --> 01:31:07,479
Speaker 10: I'm in, but yeah, I also know somebody in person,

1689
01:31:08,200 --> 01:31:11,519
Speaker 10: or rather I knew somebody in person who spoke to

1690
01:31:12,240 --> 01:31:19,240
Speaker 10: chachipt like their partner and therapists. Yeah, they listen like, yeah,

1691
01:31:19,320 --> 01:31:24,720
Speaker 10: that's it's I mean, it's sad. Yeah, it's as you said,

1692
01:31:24,760 --> 01:31:29,240
Speaker 10: almost kind of black pillin you know, because these chat

1693
01:31:29,320 --> 01:31:36,240
Speaker 10: bots they listen in a simulated sense, they respond in

1694
01:31:36,320 --> 01:31:40,400
Speaker 10: a simulated sense, and they affume what the person is

1695
01:31:40,520 --> 01:31:44,160
Speaker 10: dealing with, is going through, is venting about. They're almost

1696
01:31:44,240 --> 01:31:47,000
Speaker 10: like a hug box because you don't really see chat

1697
01:31:47,080 --> 01:31:51,680
Speaker 10: bots disagree and with the people they're speaking to. Chat

1698
01:31:51,760 --> 01:31:55,360
Speaker 10: Bots are very much like you know, faming, you know,

1699
01:31:55,439 --> 01:31:59,040
Speaker 10: they try their best to affume everything that a person

1700
01:31:59,160 --> 01:32:01,320
Speaker 10: is telling them. So you have this kind of cuddle

1701
01:32:01,360 --> 01:32:04,599
Speaker 10: box for people's egos, which in two makes it even

1702
01:32:04,640 --> 01:32:07,000
Speaker 10: more difficult for them to connect to real people because

1703
01:32:07,040 --> 01:32:08,679
Speaker 10: you know, real people are going to call you out,

1704
01:32:09,560 --> 01:32:11,240
Speaker 10: you know they're going to disagree with you, You're going

1705
01:32:11,320 --> 01:32:14,960
Speaker 10: to have friction and conflict, but there's also a lot

1706
01:32:15,000 --> 01:32:17,360
Speaker 10: of joy that comes from interact with real people and

1707
01:32:18,360 --> 01:32:20,439
Speaker 10: Unfortunately a lot of people because they're not getting that,

1708
01:32:20,640 --> 01:32:26,200
Speaker 10: they're turned into this on demand affection, this on demand flirtation,

1709
01:32:26,920 --> 01:32:31,759
Speaker 10: this pseudo therapy, and it's it's brutal, you know, Lonliness

1710
01:32:31,840 --> 01:32:35,200
Speaker 10: is a brutal experience. Relationships are very hard and therapy

1711
01:32:35,360 --> 01:32:38,880
Speaker 10: is extremely expensive for a lot of people. So I

1712
01:32:39,040 --> 01:32:51,439
Speaker 10: understand that, you know, you can only put so much

1713
01:32:51,439 --> 01:32:53,760
Speaker 10: blame on individuals because the will is not really set

1714
01:32:53,880 --> 01:32:57,479
Speaker 10: up to support those kind of lasting connections. People live

1715
01:32:58,080 --> 01:33:02,040
Speaker 10: very spread out, They have few and fewer opportunities to

1716
01:33:02,120 --> 01:33:03,920
Speaker 10: interact with each other. In fact, a lot of times

1717
01:33:04,760 --> 01:33:08,599
Speaker 10: the last time a policon had extended exposure with other

1718
01:33:08,680 --> 01:33:12,160
Speaker 10: people was in school or in college. And outside of

1719
01:33:12,240 --> 01:33:16,439
Speaker 10: that you're just kind of on your own. Yeah, and

1720
01:33:16,680 --> 01:33:20,960
Speaker 10: places are increasingly not walkable, the more coccentric, the sourt

1721
01:33:20,960 --> 01:33:26,720
Speaker 10: of spontaneity and friction and interaction that would have made

1722
01:33:26,840 --> 01:33:31,840
Speaker 10: relationships blossom naturally and my religious possible, as messy and

1723
01:33:31,880 --> 01:33:35,040
Speaker 10: inconvenience as they can be, sometimes those things are lacking

1724
01:33:35,160 --> 01:33:38,439
Speaker 10: now and unfortunately some for action of people, And I

1725
01:33:38,479 --> 01:33:40,840
Speaker 10: don't know what the actual number will be because I

1726
01:33:40,880 --> 01:33:44,000
Speaker 10: could imagine a lot of people will not admit that

1727
01:33:44,320 --> 01:33:48,000
Speaker 10: they turned to a chat pot for companionship. But it

1728
01:33:48,160 --> 01:33:53,160
Speaker 10: is a frightening oman of what direction we're going in.

1729
01:33:54,040 --> 01:33:58,280
Speaker 10: And I also worry about the potential outcomes of you know,

1730
01:33:58,760 --> 01:34:04,360
Speaker 10: egoic behavior that my results from that sort of continue

1731
01:34:04,439 --> 01:34:07,840
Speaker 10: us interaction with something that is affirming in every belief

1732
01:34:08,000 --> 01:34:11,479
Speaker 10: and thought and conclusion. What kind of google are we

1733
01:34:11,560 --> 01:34:12,120
Speaker 10: going to be there for?

1734
01:34:12,439 --> 01:34:12,600
Speaker 4: You know?

1735
01:34:13,439 --> 01:34:17,640
Speaker 8: Yeah, it's the world that super rich people already live in.

1736
01:34:18,120 --> 01:34:21,679
Speaker 8: One of the reasons that the gulf between the rest

1737
01:34:21,720 --> 01:34:24,640
Speaker 8: of us and the super rich, like the really you know,

1738
01:34:25,360 --> 01:34:27,559
Speaker 8: incredibly wealthy people. Part of that is that no one

1739
01:34:27,640 --> 01:34:30,160
Speaker 8: says no to a lot of those people, and that's

1740
01:34:30,240 --> 01:34:33,920
Speaker 8: why they exclusively end up socializing with each other. Right,

1741
01:34:34,080 --> 01:34:38,720
Speaker 8: Like they're they're they're surrounded by nothing but affirmation.

1742
01:34:39,200 --> 01:34:39,360
Speaker 4: Right.

1743
01:34:39,840 --> 01:34:41,439
Speaker 8: One of the things we see was Trump, right, is

1744
01:34:41,640 --> 01:34:43,519
Speaker 8: that like, if there is a reality that he doesn't like,

1745
01:34:43,600 --> 01:34:47,519
Speaker 8: he manifests his own reality. He just speaks things and

1746
01:34:47,960 --> 01:34:49,759
Speaker 8: expects them to be accepted as truths.

1747
01:34:49,960 --> 01:34:50,080
Speaker 4: Right.

1748
01:34:51,320 --> 01:34:54,000
Speaker 8: Growing up, my dad worked for a lot of extremely

1749
01:34:54,120 --> 01:34:57,439
Speaker 8: wealthy people, and so I've interacted with them, and like,

1750
01:34:57,880 --> 01:35:00,479
Speaker 8: there's a lot of people who just aren't used to hearing, know,

1751
01:35:01,080 --> 01:35:03,000
Speaker 8: or why, but not a lot that there is a

1752
01:35:03,400 --> 01:35:05,559
Speaker 8: number of them, And like I think when you see

1753
01:35:05,640 --> 01:35:08,439
Speaker 8: I was just thinking about it. The behavior that you

1754
01:35:08,479 --> 01:35:10,760
Speaker 8: know Trump now asserting with the Epstein thing is like

1755
01:35:10,840 --> 01:35:13,160
Speaker 8: it is made up, right, and it's a hoax, and

1756
01:35:13,280 --> 01:35:15,320
Speaker 8: it just when we were talking about AI. It sort

1757
01:35:15,360 --> 01:35:18,400
Speaker 8: of reminds me of that, right that like constant affirmation,

1758
01:35:18,400 --> 01:35:19,760
Speaker 8: because what a I want you to do is to

1759
01:35:19,840 --> 01:35:22,360
Speaker 8: please you so that you spend more time on it,

1760
01:35:22,400 --> 01:35:24,680
Speaker 8: I assume, And it's some way that it attempts to

1761
01:35:24,720 --> 01:35:26,600
Speaker 8: monetize that, I'm sure, and it just wants you to

1762
01:35:26,680 --> 01:35:28,559
Speaker 8: keep interacting with it so it can get more information

1763
01:35:28,680 --> 01:35:29,960
Speaker 8: to take into its model. I guess.

1764
01:35:30,120 --> 01:35:30,320
Speaker 10: Yeah.

1765
01:35:30,360 --> 01:35:33,840
Speaker 8: The dates are called rush yeah, right, And people are

1766
01:35:33,840 --> 01:35:35,760
Speaker 8: doing the same with with wealthy people, right, They just

1767
01:35:35,840 --> 01:35:37,840
Speaker 8: want to interact with them so so they can siphon

1768
01:35:37,880 --> 01:35:40,280
Speaker 8: off some of the resources that those people have accumulated.

1769
01:35:40,960 --> 01:35:43,040
Speaker 8: Like it's not maybe it's not the same. I think

1770
01:35:43,160 --> 01:35:46,320
Speaker 8: that still humans interacting with wealthy people is distinct from

1771
01:35:46,360 --> 01:35:50,080
Speaker 8: an AI interacting with humans, but it sort of gives

1772
01:35:50,160 --> 01:35:53,040
Speaker 8: us a window into what the impact of that being

1773
01:35:53,160 --> 01:35:55,200
Speaker 8: most of your human interaction over time.

1774
01:35:55,720 --> 01:35:55,800
Speaker 7: And.

1775
01:35:57,760 --> 01:35:59,960
Speaker 10: As we speak of wealthy people. I suppose we should

1776
01:36:00,080 --> 01:36:03,720
Speaker 10: look at the other way in which AI is intersecting

1777
01:36:03,760 --> 01:36:08,639
Speaker 10: with alienation, right, because you know, for the current narrative

1778
01:36:08,760 --> 01:36:11,280
Speaker 10: has been about you know, AI is taking jobs, and

1779
01:36:11,760 --> 01:36:15,640
Speaker 10: before then it's about automation was taking jobs. AI is

1780
01:36:15,920 --> 01:36:19,519
Speaker 10: you know, a form of automation, and before that it

1781
01:36:19,720 --> 01:36:24,240
Speaker 10: was just innovations in general, just steps in some technological

1782
01:36:24,280 --> 01:36:28,400
Speaker 10: direction would be eliminating jobs. But always marvel at stepping

1783
01:36:28,439 --> 01:36:31,559
Speaker 10: back and looking at the whole conversation about this has

1784
01:36:31,600 --> 01:36:34,160
Speaker 10: taken jobs, that has taken jobs is at the root

1785
01:36:34,200 --> 01:36:39,080
Speaker 10: of it is this dependence on employment, on jobs for

1786
01:36:39,160 --> 01:36:42,160
Speaker 10: people to have, you know, life, to be able to live,

1787
01:36:42,400 --> 01:36:45,439
Speaker 10: to have a quality of life. We have gotten more

1788
01:36:45,479 --> 01:36:48,880
Speaker 10: and more productive, and I mean that productivity has helped

1789
01:36:48,920 --> 01:36:51,280
Speaker 10: people in some ways, and it's harmed to the environment

1790
01:36:51,360 --> 01:36:55,360
Speaker 10: in a lot of ways. But we have a certain

1791
01:36:55,479 --> 01:36:58,920
Speaker 10: level of productivity now and we've produced so much now

1792
01:36:59,120 --> 01:37:01,760
Speaker 10: that in some sectors we have more of the enough

1793
01:37:01,840 --> 01:37:04,760
Speaker 10: for several decades to come. I think fashion is one

1794
01:37:04,800 --> 01:37:08,360
Speaker 10: of them where we have like quite the excess of

1795
01:37:08,479 --> 01:37:11,680
Speaker 10: clothing everybody. And of course you could talk about how

1796
01:37:11,720 --> 01:37:14,960
Speaker 10: that level of productivity is done damage to our creativity

1797
01:37:15,280 --> 01:37:18,280
Speaker 10: or craftsmanship. But it's all the worse when you think

1798
01:37:18,280 --> 01:37:21,680
Speaker 10: about how even with all our productivity, the work has

1799
01:37:21,800 --> 01:37:25,479
Speaker 10: hardly benefited. You know, more productivity doesn't necessarily mean more pay.

1800
01:37:26,000 --> 01:37:28,080
Speaker 10: And so even before AI came around, we were having

1801
01:37:28,160 --> 01:37:32,000
Speaker 10: issues with labor and alienation, right, people disconnected from their

1802
01:37:32,040 --> 01:37:34,479
Speaker 10: work from whether it be a service job, a factory job,

1803
01:37:34,560 --> 01:37:38,800
Speaker 10: or delivery job, whatever, any of these jobs that you

1804
01:37:38,920 --> 01:37:41,120
Speaker 10: look at, it's structured at the end of the day,

1805
01:37:41,200 --> 01:37:45,080
Speaker 10: not around providing a product or providing a service, but

1806
01:37:45,200 --> 01:37:50,680
Speaker 10: around profit, around the power dynamic between the owner, the

1807
01:37:50,800 --> 01:37:54,840
Speaker 10: capitalist and the worker. The worker who is not in

1808
01:37:55,040 --> 01:37:57,799
Speaker 10: control is alienated from their labor and from the products

1809
01:37:57,800 --> 01:38:01,280
Speaker 10: of their labor. And it's just what Famously spoke about,

1810
01:38:01,360 --> 01:38:03,920
Speaker 10: but he wasn't the only one to speak about it.

1811
01:38:05,240 --> 01:38:09,840
Speaker 10: The sort of alienated label that is compelled rather than creative,

1812
01:38:10,040 --> 01:38:13,200
Speaker 10: that has no control for work, and where workers are

1813
01:38:13,240 --> 01:38:17,400
Speaker 10: treated as commodities on a labor market. Samefully, I haven't

1814
01:38:17,439 --> 01:38:19,120
Speaker 10: had to look for a job in a while, but

1815
01:38:20,120 --> 01:38:23,200
Speaker 10: I've had to see my friends seeking jobs and it's

1816
01:38:23,479 --> 01:38:27,799
Speaker 10: not a nice experience. And you have to spend weeks

1817
01:38:27,880 --> 01:38:32,400
Speaker 10: months sometimes looking for a job. But you will most

1818
01:38:32,560 --> 01:38:35,600
Speaker 10: likely heed, but you need to survive, you know. And

1819
01:38:35,720 --> 01:38:37,280
Speaker 10: a lot of these jobs you end up looking for

1820
01:38:37,479 --> 01:38:40,160
Speaker 10: end up getting into and not even necessary jobs. There

1821
01:38:40,160 --> 01:38:43,040
Speaker 10: are a lot of bullshit jobs. And I don't contribute

1822
01:38:43,120 --> 01:38:46,720
Speaker 10: to a person's you know, development and fulfillment or they

1823
01:38:46,800 --> 01:38:51,200
Speaker 10: could have humanity in any way. Yeah, And then a

1824
01:38:51,280 --> 01:38:53,439
Speaker 10: lot of the benefits that people have fought for, even

1825
01:38:53,479 --> 01:38:56,960
Speaker 10: for these jobs have either been eroded you know, rolled

1826
01:38:57,040 --> 01:39:01,960
Speaker 10: back over time, or they've been loophole doubt. So you know,

1827
01:39:02,040 --> 01:39:05,000
Speaker 10: for example, you don't even get enough hours to qualify

1828
01:39:05,200 --> 01:39:09,439
Speaker 10: for benefits when you work at certain places, or you

1829
01:39:09,560 --> 01:39:14,000
Speaker 10: are an independent contractor instead of an employee, so they

1830
01:39:14,040 --> 01:39:16,599
Speaker 10: can get away from you know, giving me your due.

1831
01:39:17,680 --> 01:39:20,800
Speaker 10: And so then in this environment you have EI coming

1832
01:39:20,880 --> 01:39:26,519
Speaker 10: in now and taking certain rules varying levels of quality

1833
01:39:26,680 --> 01:39:31,160
Speaker 10: and writing and in art and coding and administrative work.

1834
01:39:31,600 --> 01:39:35,040
Speaker 10: And I don't know, I think for one, EI does

1835
01:39:35,080 --> 01:39:37,360
Speaker 10: a lot of these jobs very poorly. But then there's

1836
01:39:37,400 --> 01:39:41,400
Speaker 10: also cases where I don't like copyrighting, which is something

1837
01:39:41,439 --> 01:39:45,720
Speaker 10: I used to do. The EI copyrighting and the sort

1838
01:39:45,760 --> 01:39:49,600
Speaker 10: of copyrighting that I had to write is back in

1839
01:39:49,640 --> 01:39:53,240
Speaker 10: the days almost indistinguishable in terms of it feels you

1840
01:39:53,320 --> 01:39:56,800
Speaker 10: know generic, quite less, you know slop, like it's just

1841
01:39:57,320 --> 01:40:01,200
Speaker 10: you're pumping this out to pollute the waves in a sense.

1842
01:40:01,920 --> 01:40:05,000
Speaker 8: Yeah, it's very like it has a very formulaic nature

1843
01:40:05,320 --> 01:40:08,240
Speaker 8: when a human does it. It's funny when I think

1844
01:40:08,240 --> 01:40:11,320
Speaker 8: about copywriting, right, Like you can see that people have

1845
01:40:11,439 --> 01:40:14,679
Speaker 8: identified the completely generic nature of it, because occasionally you'll

1846
01:40:14,720 --> 01:40:18,040
Speaker 8: have like brands who do it in a non formulaic

1847
01:40:18,160 --> 01:40:21,439
Speaker 8: way and briefly see success from it, like just by

1848
01:40:22,200 --> 01:40:25,160
Speaker 8: having some element of humanity in it.

1849
01:40:25,400 --> 01:40:27,800
Speaker 10: Yeah, like Wendy is when they did that for a

1850
01:40:27,840 --> 01:40:30,880
Speaker 10: little while. Then yeah, then every brand to copy that

1851
01:40:31,040 --> 01:40:33,679
Speaker 10: method and then it became steel and yeah, yeah.

1852
01:40:33,640 --> 01:40:35,720
Speaker 8: Someone wist sometimes like puncture it for a minute and

1853
01:40:35,800 --> 01:40:37,560
Speaker 8: then ye, like you say, everyone will run after it

1854
01:40:37,680 --> 01:40:40,920
Speaker 8: like a pit viper. Sunglasses, this one, I guess they're

1855
01:40:41,000 --> 01:40:43,760
Speaker 8: very popular with like right wing bigots. Every time like

1856
01:40:43,880 --> 01:40:46,679
Speaker 8: biggots are pictured in their sunglasses, they'll like donate money

1857
01:40:46,760 --> 01:40:51,559
Speaker 8: to LGBTQ affirming causes or like gender affirming care stuff

1858
01:40:51,640 --> 01:40:54,000
Speaker 8: or whatever depends what the people are being bigoted about.

1859
01:40:54,439 --> 01:40:56,200
Speaker 8: And like briefly I saw them have success with that

1860
01:40:56,360 --> 01:40:58,840
Speaker 8: just because like people are so accustomed to brands being

1861
01:40:59,080 --> 01:41:02,439
Speaker 8: a political rather just being like no, fuck you. So

1862
01:41:02,760 --> 01:41:05,799
Speaker 8: by doing the kind of basics of being a good person,

1863
01:41:06,479 --> 01:41:09,840
Speaker 8: it appears human and therefore not so generic, and people

1864
01:41:10,880 --> 01:41:13,000
Speaker 8: you know, briefly fall in love with it or.

1865
01:41:13,000 --> 01:41:15,880
Speaker 10: Well yeah, but I mean, at the end of the day,

1866
01:41:16,439 --> 01:41:21,280
Speaker 10: of the corporations are our persons. There are people behind corporations. Yeah,

1867
01:41:21,720 --> 01:41:23,760
Speaker 10: And I guess I sort of sort of wonder with

1868
01:41:23,920 --> 01:41:26,840
Speaker 10: these kinds of jobs that are all being build in

1869
01:41:27,080 --> 01:41:31,719
Speaker 10: at least in part by AI, what is the impact

1870
01:41:31,960 --> 01:41:35,920
Speaker 10: on a person self worse? Oh yeah, but their their

1871
01:41:36,760 --> 01:41:41,839
Speaker 10: skilled to be just sort of swapped out for a machine.

1872
01:41:42,120 --> 01:41:45,640
Speaker 10: You know, a lot of people have already felt that

1873
01:41:45,760 --> 01:41:48,200
Speaker 10: their work is non essential, and then you have a

1874
01:41:48,240 --> 01:41:53,120
Speaker 10: sense of being replaceable and unneeded. And in some cases

1875
01:41:53,200 --> 01:41:55,960
Speaker 10: the difference is negligible because, like I said, the work

1876
01:41:56,040 --> 01:41:58,320
Speaker 10: they was already being put out was the sort of

1877
01:41:58,439 --> 01:42:04,080
Speaker 10: generic stuff that it sort of fills people, yeah, and

1878
01:42:04,200 --> 01:42:07,360
Speaker 10: fill screens. But then you also have more necessary, the

1879
01:42:07,439 --> 01:42:09,800
Speaker 10: more creative work. It is also just being sort of

1880
01:42:09,840 --> 01:42:13,200
Speaker 10: funneled out. You know, I'm seeing billboards all over the

1881
01:42:13,280 --> 01:42:18,920
Speaker 10: place that just have like this nasty, smooth looking like

1882
01:42:19,160 --> 01:42:23,840
Speaker 10: AI generated pictures. Yeah, just a lot of slop you know,

1883
01:42:24,000 --> 01:42:28,280
Speaker 10: slop content, slop ad, slop emails, you know, even on

1884
01:42:28,400 --> 01:42:31,240
Speaker 10: YouTube now Like I like to listen to these sort

1885
01:42:31,240 --> 01:42:35,000
Speaker 10: of music mixes while I work sometimes, and most of

1886
01:42:35,040 --> 01:42:38,919
Speaker 10: the channels being recommended with music mixes on YouTube nowadays,

1887
01:42:39,240 --> 01:42:40,960
Speaker 10: at least to the genres that I would listen to,

1888
01:42:41,880 --> 01:42:45,240
Speaker 10: it's just like, yeah, I generated jazz chill. The thing

1889
01:42:45,320 --> 01:42:47,880
Speaker 10: is they were't title it that way. Yeah, you know,

1890
01:42:48,000 --> 01:42:51,040
Speaker 10: the titlet some some word and they probably haven't somewhat

1891
01:42:51,080 --> 01:42:54,640
Speaker 10: AI generated thumbnail and whatever. And then you just, you know,

1892
01:42:54,680 --> 01:42:58,240
Speaker 10: if you're unaware of the pattern of how those channels operate.

1893
01:42:58,760 --> 01:43:00,400
Speaker 10: My click on it, thinking oh, it's just like a

1894
01:43:00,479 --> 01:43:03,160
Speaker 10: music mix, like every other music mix, and then you

1895
01:43:03,280 --> 01:43:04,720
Speaker 10: listened to it for a while and listen to a

1896
01:43:04,760 --> 01:43:06,640
Speaker 10: few of them, when you realize, oh, this is just

1897
01:43:06,800 --> 01:43:11,000
Speaker 10: like a machine made this. It has no flavor, yeah,

1898
01:43:11,280 --> 01:43:14,200
Speaker 10: like no soul. There's also a lot of articles that

1899
01:43:14,360 --> 01:43:17,240
Speaker 10: just fill in the Internet. It's just like slow yeah, yeah,

1900
01:43:17,560 --> 01:43:21,040
Speaker 10: you know, just AI generated articles that feed into the

1901
01:43:21,400 --> 01:43:25,240
Speaker 10: AI pool of references, and it's the AI almost eats itself. Yeah,

1902
01:43:25,680 --> 01:43:28,800
Speaker 10: and it's sad, but I think it was like we

1903
01:43:28,960 --> 01:43:31,680
Speaker 10: always going in this direction in a sense, not to

1904
01:43:31,720 --> 01:43:34,519
Speaker 10: say it was entirely inevitable, but this was the trajectory

1905
01:43:34,560 --> 01:43:37,200
Speaker 10: that we appointed that this actually could have been changed.

1906
01:43:37,360 --> 01:43:39,559
Speaker 10: But now it hasn't been. So it's how we kind

1907
01:43:39,600 --> 01:43:51,160
Speaker 10: of got here. I don't know if it's just me,

1908
01:43:51,280 --> 01:43:54,040
Speaker 10: but I feel like there was a time when boy,

1909
01:43:54,200 --> 01:43:56,639
Speaker 10: it may it may still be true that still flus

1910
01:43:56,720 --> 01:43:59,360
Speaker 10: is not always a good thing. There's something to be

1911
01:43:59,439 --> 01:44:04,280
Speaker 10: said about the value that we impue to things when

1912
01:44:04,400 --> 01:44:07,840
Speaker 10: they are a bit rarer, you know, when it's you

1913
01:44:07,920 --> 01:44:10,320
Speaker 10: have to be more attentive and engaging with it.

1914
01:44:11,200 --> 01:44:11,320
Speaker 7: You know.

1915
01:44:11,560 --> 01:44:13,479
Speaker 10: I was actually thinking about it earlier today when I

1916
01:44:13,520 --> 01:44:15,600
Speaker 10: was a child and I was watching TV. You know,

1917
01:44:15,640 --> 01:44:17,439
Speaker 10: if they didn't have anything on the TV that I

1918
01:44:17,479 --> 01:44:18,600
Speaker 10: wanted to watch, and I have to go and do

1919
01:44:18,720 --> 01:44:22,599
Speaker 10: something else, right, Yeah, And nowadays TV is pretty much

1920
01:44:22,640 --> 01:44:25,680
Speaker 10: unlimited because at any point in time, you couldn't have

1921
01:44:26,320 --> 01:44:30,160
Speaker 10: access to anything that an algorithm could see. If you're

1922
01:44:30,200 --> 01:44:33,439
Speaker 10: update is perfectly curated to your interests. Yeah, and it's

1923
01:44:33,479 --> 01:44:36,000
Speaker 10: auto play and everything. It's just one hits after the next.

1924
01:44:36,880 --> 01:44:41,040
Speaker 10: In that excess, I just feel like we've lost the

1925
01:44:41,120 --> 01:44:45,640
Speaker 10: sort of attentive curation of your tease, curation of and

1926
01:44:45,760 --> 01:44:50,200
Speaker 10: evaluation of things. Of the effort and energy and craft

1927
01:44:50,320 --> 01:44:52,200
Speaker 10: goes into making things. We just end up sort of

1928
01:44:52,200 --> 01:44:53,840
Speaker 10: taking things for granted, and.

1929
01:44:53,920 --> 01:44:56,640
Speaker 8: Like I think we kind of lower the standard that

1930
01:44:56,720 --> 01:44:59,760
Speaker 8: we will accept because it's just so much of it,

1931
01:45:00,080 --> 01:45:01,880
Speaker 8: so much volume of it. Yeah, Like, and you're not

1932
01:45:02,000 --> 01:45:04,360
Speaker 8: so attentive to it because it's always there that like

1933
01:45:05,320 --> 01:45:08,759
Speaker 8: slop becomes okay, it just kind of fills the gaps

1934
01:45:08,880 --> 01:45:11,519
Speaker 8: in this non stop stream of content.

1935
01:45:11,960 --> 01:45:14,240
Speaker 10: Yes, just filling feeling the noise. I have to catch

1936
01:45:14,320 --> 01:45:17,760
Speaker 10: myself sometimes, yeah, because I mean just like sometimes I

1937
01:45:17,880 --> 01:45:20,640
Speaker 10: just put something on because it was there, you know,

1938
01:45:20,720 --> 01:45:23,160
Speaker 10: and just feeling noise, Like sometimes I have to remind myself,

1939
01:45:23,360 --> 01:45:27,200
Speaker 10: you know, palls, just be with your thoughts for a bit,

1940
01:45:27,400 --> 01:45:27,519
Speaker 10: you know.

1941
01:45:28,360 --> 01:45:28,599
Speaker 15: Yeah.

1942
01:45:28,760 --> 01:45:32,040
Speaker 10: Yeah, and I try not to put too much blame

1943
01:45:32,120 --> 01:45:35,600
Speaker 10: on myself even as I try to work on it,

1944
01:45:36,120 --> 01:45:39,040
Speaker 10: because all of this, once again is high design.

1945
01:45:39,520 --> 01:45:39,720
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1946
01:45:39,760 --> 01:45:43,240
Speaker 10: You know, these platforms and these algorithms have been set

1947
01:45:43,360 --> 01:45:48,960
Speaker 10: up to perfectly. They're perfectly hone into their abilities exploit

1948
01:45:49,160 --> 01:45:53,040
Speaker 10: the little shortcuts and weaknesses in the human mind to

1949
01:45:53,400 --> 01:45:56,760
Speaker 10: endy just for as long as possible. Yeah. Like so

1950
01:45:57,120 --> 01:45:58,800
Speaker 10: even if you feel like, oh my gosh, I want

1951
01:45:58,840 --> 01:46:00,120
Speaker 10: to get off those media, I want to quit this,

1952
01:46:00,280 --> 01:46:03,519
Speaker 10: that and the other, it's hard. Yeah, you know, even

1953
01:46:03,560 --> 01:46:08,000
Speaker 10: on you when you know in your mind that it's detrimental,

1954
01:46:08,120 --> 01:46:11,519
Speaker 10: that it's affecting your negatively, you still end up going

1955
01:46:11,600 --> 01:46:15,040
Speaker 10: back because again it's it's hacked into your brain in

1956
01:46:15,160 --> 01:46:15,559
Speaker 10: a sense.

1957
01:46:16,240 --> 01:46:16,439
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1958
01:46:17,080 --> 01:46:19,720
Speaker 10: But so I'd just really frustrated by the way that

1959
01:46:20,000 --> 01:46:25,519
Speaker 10: AI has contributed to this sort of disconnect because I

1960
01:46:25,600 --> 01:46:28,440
Speaker 10: also think it makes the whole breath of human creativity

1961
01:46:28,880 --> 01:46:33,679
Speaker 10: a lot less valued, practiced and supported, you know, instead

1962
01:46:33,720 --> 01:46:40,280
Speaker 10: of people actually respecting and you know, supporting the craft

1963
01:46:40,360 --> 01:46:43,840
Speaker 10: and the effort that goes into into things, it's just like, oh,

1964
01:46:43,920 --> 01:46:46,160
Speaker 10: scroll toed the next thing, scrollted the next thing, or

1965
01:46:46,720 --> 01:46:50,439
Speaker 10: for some people who seem to love HI, it's just oh, yeah,

1966
01:46:50,479 --> 01:46:53,680
Speaker 10: you're you're you're obsolete. Now you could be replaced by

1967
01:46:53,760 --> 01:46:55,599
Speaker 10: this you know junk.

1968
01:46:56,160 --> 01:46:58,640
Speaker 8: Yeah, of just thinking about like like I see it

1969
01:46:58,880 --> 01:47:03,200
Speaker 8: so often in like like given in revolutionary spaces, I'll

1970
01:47:03,240 --> 01:47:05,479
Speaker 8: see it right like there, I guess sometimes is what

1971
01:47:05,600 --> 01:47:07,840
Speaker 8: it is actually is AI accounts that have no idea

1972
01:47:07,880 --> 01:47:10,000
Speaker 8: what a revolution is. There incapable of doing so because

1973
01:47:10,000 --> 01:47:13,639
Speaker 8: they're not human. But like I'm just designed to monetize clicks.

1974
01:47:14,280 --> 01:47:17,799
Speaker 8: You know, you'll see there's a bunch of fucking Israel

1975
01:47:17,880 --> 01:47:22,040
Speaker 8: stands with Kurtistan ads, which you'll just like AI generate

1976
01:47:22,560 --> 01:47:26,400
Speaker 8: pictures of yep as women like the women who fight

1977
01:47:26,560 --> 01:47:31,040
Speaker 8: for their anes, right, and like it's just I don't

1978
01:47:31,080 --> 01:47:33,200
Speaker 8: think these are not again, people are actually part of

1979
01:47:33,240 --> 01:47:35,200
Speaker 8: the revolution, right, there are people who just who want

1980
01:47:35,240 --> 01:47:37,760
Speaker 8: to in a sense objectify the revolution and the women

1981
01:47:37,800 --> 01:47:40,040
Speaker 8: who fought in it and continue to fight in it

1982
01:47:40,520 --> 01:47:44,040
Speaker 8: for financial benefit. But like it's the antithesis of the

1983
01:47:44,120 --> 01:47:48,360
Speaker 8: beautiful life that people are trying to build there, right,

1984
01:47:48,439 --> 01:47:51,679
Speaker 8: Like it is the opposite of everything that that revolution

1985
01:47:51,840 --> 01:47:52,320
Speaker 8: stands for.

1986
01:47:53,040 --> 01:47:56,439
Speaker 10: So you're seeing people are like AI generates and these

1987
01:47:56,520 --> 01:47:57,800
Speaker 10: human fighters.

1988
01:47:57,880 --> 01:48:03,240
Speaker 8: Yeah, yes, exactly, and then using that for some either

1989
01:48:03,479 --> 01:48:06,360
Speaker 8: just straight because you get paid per click on X

1990
01:48:06,479 --> 01:48:11,600
Speaker 8: now right, or for some nefarious propaganda bullshit, But like

1991
01:48:11,840 --> 01:48:16,040
Speaker 8: it's and then by contrast, right by friends in Memma,

1992
01:48:16,960 --> 01:48:19,120
Speaker 8: there's a group called Art Strike Collective who do these

1993
01:48:19,160 --> 01:48:22,960
Speaker 8: cul drawings of various individuals who have fought in the revolution,

1994
01:48:23,640 --> 01:48:26,599
Speaker 8: and like one is a beautiful thing that shows your

1995
01:48:26,640 --> 01:48:29,639
Speaker 8: respect for these people, many of whom have given their

1996
01:48:29,680 --> 01:48:33,360
Speaker 8: life for this revolution. And another is just complete fucking

1997
01:48:33,479 --> 01:48:36,760
Speaker 8: slop that is actively harming the thing it's supposed to

1998
01:48:36,840 --> 01:48:37,720
Speaker 8: be supporting.

1999
01:48:38,720 --> 01:48:42,600
Speaker 10: Yeah, unfortunately, and it's a cliche at this point, but

2000
01:48:42,800 --> 01:48:43,759
Speaker 10: many such cases.

2001
01:48:44,439 --> 01:48:44,679
Speaker 3: Yeah.

2002
01:48:45,000 --> 01:48:45,200
Speaker 8: Yeah.

2003
01:48:45,840 --> 01:48:50,679
Speaker 10: I saw this short lecture on YouTube by a professor

2004
01:48:51,160 --> 01:48:54,120
Speaker 10: professor name as jam This just a short clip from

2005
01:48:54,120 --> 01:48:56,320
Speaker 10: I'm assuming a longer lecture, he said. The title of

2006
01:48:56,360 --> 01:48:58,080
Speaker 10: the video is really what captured me. It was something

2007
01:48:58,080 --> 01:49:02,200
Speaker 10: along the lines of consumerism is the perfection of slavery,

2008
01:49:03,400 --> 01:49:07,000
Speaker 10: and it was really speaking about how we are able

2009
01:49:07,200 --> 01:49:12,000
Speaker 10: to be so perfectly locked into our role as workers,

2010
01:49:12,080 --> 01:49:15,080
Speaker 10: as cogs in this machine to become, you know, so

2011
01:49:15,280 --> 01:49:22,160
Speaker 10: docile because of just how good the consumeristic system has

2012
01:49:22,280 --> 01:49:27,280
Speaker 10: gotten at keeping us chasing that next you know, dopamine,

2013
01:49:27,360 --> 01:49:30,000
Speaker 10: hit that next purchase, that next thing to consume.

2014
01:49:30,400 --> 01:49:30,519
Speaker 7: You know.

2015
01:49:30,680 --> 01:49:33,799
Speaker 10: So we're still being exploited, We are still wage slaves

2016
01:49:33,920 --> 01:49:37,800
Speaker 10: in a sense, but we are either unaware of it

2017
01:49:38,040 --> 01:49:43,560
Speaker 10: or we accept that role just to chase after, you know,

2018
01:49:43,640 --> 01:49:44,839
Speaker 10: the next tie of consumption.

2019
01:49:46,280 --> 01:49:49,720
Speaker 8: H Yeah, Like when you think about a brave new

2020
01:49:49,720 --> 01:49:53,240
Speaker 8: world in nineteen eighty four, right, these two dystopian novels roughly,

2021
01:49:54,080 --> 01:49:56,200
Speaker 8: I mean briefly work came up before eight if nineteen

2022
01:49:56,200 --> 01:49:56,559
Speaker 8: eighty four.

2023
01:49:56,680 --> 01:49:56,800
Speaker 10: Right.

2024
01:49:57,160 --> 01:50:00,400
Speaker 8: The difference is one is like a boot jamping on

2025
01:50:00,439 --> 01:50:02,479
Speaker 8: the human face forever, which is like nearly four in

2026
01:50:02,600 --> 01:50:07,000
Speaker 8: hux Leaves, Dystopia is based on people being essentially bought

2027
01:50:07,080 --> 01:50:07,880
Speaker 8: off through pleasure.

2028
01:50:08,040 --> 01:50:11,160
Speaker 10: Right. Yeah, it's like unlimited cookie in for every wine.

2029
01:50:11,479 --> 01:50:14,599
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, yeah, they call it. It's called sohmer. I think, right,

2030
01:50:14,840 --> 01:50:17,240
Speaker 8: we're in the unlimited Cane for everyone world, right, like

2031
01:50:17,360 --> 01:50:18,200
Speaker 8: it's it's stuf.

2032
01:50:18,240 --> 01:50:19,840
Speaker 10: I mean, I think we're in both. You know, it's

2033
01:50:19,880 --> 01:50:23,960
Speaker 10: a simultaneously a hux LEYA and all. Well, yeah, yeah dystopia.

2034
01:50:24,240 --> 01:50:26,080
Speaker 10: You know what's the fourth worlds?

2035
01:50:26,400 --> 01:50:30,000
Speaker 8: Yeah, you're right. I'm starting to read Jack London's Dystopia

2036
01:50:30,120 --> 01:50:32,800
Speaker 8: the Iron Heel. Now I've I've decided I want to

2037
01:50:32,960 --> 01:50:36,160
Speaker 8: work out who was best calling the dystopia. But yeah,

2038
01:50:36,200 --> 01:50:38,040
Speaker 8: we we have a little bit of both. Now we

2039
01:50:38,160 --> 01:50:40,720
Speaker 8: have the they'll get you at both ends, right, Like

2040
01:50:40,840 --> 01:50:43,679
Speaker 8: they'll try and give you things to keep you placid

2041
01:50:43,720 --> 01:50:46,719
Speaker 8: and then also things to keep you afraid. Yeah.

2042
01:50:47,640 --> 01:50:49,840
Speaker 10: So, I mean there's there's a lot of reasons to

2043
01:50:49,920 --> 01:50:53,920
Speaker 10: the spare. You know, people just blankly embracing eie and

2044
01:50:54,000 --> 01:50:55,280
Speaker 10: they don't see the problem with you was in the

2045
01:50:55,280 --> 01:50:58,599
Speaker 10: eye and all these different things. There's also, as I'd

2046
01:50:58,640 --> 01:51:01,360
Speaker 10: like to end things on reason to right, there are

2047
01:51:01,560 --> 01:51:06,080
Speaker 10: people who are willing to voycott it. Who are you know,

2048
01:51:07,000 --> 01:51:09,320
Speaker 10: maintaining a stigma around it? You know, people are not

2049
01:51:09,400 --> 01:51:11,880
Speaker 10: taking it lined down? Artists, why are not taking it

2050
01:51:12,040 --> 01:51:15,960
Speaker 10: lined down? Writers are taking it line doown? Designers? We're

2051
01:51:15,960 --> 01:51:20,240
Speaker 10: not taking it lined down. People are still craving the authenticity,

2052
01:51:20,439 --> 01:51:24,799
Speaker 10: connection and craft that comes from human people. And although

2053
01:51:25,680 --> 01:51:30,200
Speaker 10: there's little any individual can do to resist the alienation

2054
01:51:31,000 --> 01:51:35,959
Speaker 10: of this society, whether be at work or relationships by themselves,

2055
01:51:36,040 --> 01:51:39,040
Speaker 10: you know, it's very hard, there are things we can

2056
01:51:39,120 --> 01:51:42,000
Speaker 10: do together in tandem to make things a little bit

2057
01:51:42,080 --> 01:51:46,479
Speaker 10: easier as we sort of try and strive toward social revolution.

2058
01:51:47,000 --> 01:51:51,120
Speaker 10: You know, there's the classic you know, touch graphs, you know,

2059
01:51:51,280 --> 01:51:54,599
Speaker 10: log off and try and find where people are. There's

2060
01:51:54,680 --> 01:52:01,240
Speaker 10: also the individualist solution of reclaiming your agency by finding

2061
01:52:01,400 --> 01:52:04,840
Speaker 10: some version of digital minimalism that works for you, you know,

2062
01:52:05,000 --> 01:52:09,200
Speaker 10: taking a break, so now limiting your screen time here

2063
01:52:09,200 --> 01:52:13,599
Speaker 10: and there. But really it's gonna take system change. It's

2064
01:52:13,600 --> 01:52:16,920
Speaker 10: gonna take collective action. It's gonna take us boycotton both.

2065
01:52:17,000 --> 01:52:20,040
Speaker 10: You know, of course the AI products, there's a boycott

2066
01:52:20,040 --> 01:52:22,599
Speaker 10: already taking place with those. But then also just yeah,

2067
01:52:23,800 --> 01:52:27,320
Speaker 10: striking add the pressure points of the system and prefiguring

2068
01:52:28,120 --> 01:52:33,519
Speaker 10: about the world for everyone. Yeah, and you know, I

2069
01:52:33,640 --> 01:52:36,240
Speaker 10: hope that everybody is able to do what they can

2070
01:52:36,439 --> 01:52:40,679
Speaker 10: to take steps in that direction. And yeah, so please

2071
01:52:40,720 --> 01:52:41,320
Speaker 10: don't use the I.

2072
01:52:42,640 --> 01:52:47,160
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think I always like that Supermandante

2073
01:52:47,280 --> 01:52:50,040
Speaker 8: Marcos quote where he says, like, it's not necessary to

2074
01:52:50,080 --> 01:52:52,240
Speaker 8: conquer the world, it's sufficient to build a new one.

2075
01:52:52,880 --> 01:52:55,000
Speaker 8: I like that approach to this AI stuff. The way

2076
01:52:55,040 --> 01:52:58,360
Speaker 8: we make it so people in our community don't turn

2077
01:52:58,439 --> 01:53:00,720
Speaker 8: to AI to talk about things they want to talk

2078
01:53:00,720 --> 01:53:02,519
Speaker 8: about is to be there for them to talk to, right,

2079
01:53:02,640 --> 01:53:06,920
Speaker 8: to build community, to build real human interactions with each other,

2080
01:53:07,400 --> 01:53:10,639
Speaker 8: so people don't have real human conversations with the computer.

2081
01:53:11,240 --> 01:53:16,160
Speaker 10: Absolutely agreed. Yeah, and that's all they have for today.

2082
01:53:17,720 --> 01:53:20,479
Speaker 10: So all thought, it's all the people. This has been,

2083
01:53:20,520 --> 01:53:23,160
Speaker 10: It could happen here. I've been Andrew, this has been

2084
01:53:23,400 --> 01:53:25,559
Speaker 10: James and Lasst Yeah.

2085
01:53:25,960 --> 01:53:44,759
Speaker 8: Thanks. We had a very funny introduction.

2086
01:53:45,040 --> 01:53:45,920
Speaker 10: It was really good.

2087
01:53:46,360 --> 01:53:50,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, it referenced our company sexual harassment protocols. It was hilarious.

2088
01:53:51,160 --> 01:53:53,080
Speaker 2: You're never going to hear it. We weren't recording.

2089
01:53:53,920 --> 01:53:56,200
Speaker 4: I was recording, so you can hear my seesh. Okay.

2090
01:53:56,240 --> 01:53:59,519
Speaker 8: Yeah, if you can just accept what Garrison said without

2091
01:53:59,600 --> 01:54:02,639
Speaker 8: contract and we'll open with that, that'll be great. Yeah.

2092
01:54:06,520 --> 01:54:10,360
Speaker 4: That is a classic Robert Evans intro. You just did it.

2093
01:54:11,040 --> 01:54:12,559
Speaker 4: I feel like it always comes from insight.

2094
01:54:13,360 --> 01:54:17,920
Speaker 2: Welcome to it could happen here a podcast about journalistic objectivity.

2095
01:54:18,080 --> 01:54:21,760
Speaker 2: That's right, a thing that we've just demonstrated perfectly.

2096
01:54:22,760 --> 01:54:27,360
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, that's the professional media class. So let's have

2097
01:54:27,439 --> 01:54:30,000
Speaker 8: a little talk about media objectivity. Right. It's been a

2098
01:54:30,080 --> 01:54:34,680
Speaker 8: major tenor of traditional legacy media that they must remain unbiased.

2099
01:54:35,640 --> 01:54:38,120
Speaker 8: This hasn't always been the case in the United States.

2100
01:54:38,240 --> 01:54:41,720
Speaker 8: Right used to have explicitly partisan news sources, which we

2101
01:54:42,080 --> 01:54:45,040
Speaker 8: have now with Fox News, I guess. But that's why

2102
01:54:45,120 --> 01:54:47,040
Speaker 8: you have newspapers like I think Saint Louis has a

2103
01:54:47,080 --> 01:54:50,080
Speaker 8: Saint Louis Democrat or the SO and so Republican like

2104
01:54:50,200 --> 01:54:54,240
Speaker 8: that they would be very explicitly a partisan newspaper. It's

2105
01:54:54,360 --> 01:54:57,480
Speaker 8: only really when journalism sort of took on this strong

2106
01:54:57,680 --> 01:55:00,800
Speaker 8: professional and I mean professional here in terms of like

2107
01:55:00,960 --> 01:55:05,080
Speaker 8: the professions, right, like law, accounting, jobs that are associated

2108
01:55:05,120 --> 01:55:09,680
Speaker 8: with university education, and a class identity that it started

2109
01:55:09,760 --> 01:55:13,400
Speaker 8: to assert this kind of it's an attempt to appear

2110
01:55:13,520 --> 01:55:16,760
Speaker 8: rational and scientific in its methodologies, right. And one of

2111
01:55:16,840 --> 01:55:19,760
Speaker 8: the ways that journalism did this was to talk about objectivity.

2112
01:55:20,280 --> 01:55:23,440
Speaker 8: I should indicate here that objectivity is supposed to be

2113
01:55:23,520 --> 01:55:28,080
Speaker 8: a means of verifying information. I like that we should

2114
01:55:28,080 --> 01:55:30,200
Speaker 8: objectively check that what we have written is correct.

2115
01:55:30,480 --> 01:55:33,120
Speaker 2: The example I always give is that if I'm in

2116
01:55:33,240 --> 01:55:36,400
Speaker 2: a protest scene where there's a clash between crowd boys

2117
01:55:36,680 --> 01:55:39,480
Speaker 2: and you know, a group of leftists, and you know,

2118
01:55:39,600 --> 01:55:41,360
Speaker 2: someone on the left pulls out a can of mace

2119
01:55:41,480 --> 01:55:44,760
Speaker 2: and sprays it first, that's objectively what happened. Now, that

2120
01:55:44,840 --> 01:55:48,600
Speaker 2: doesn't mean that that's the only thing I report. For example,

2121
01:55:48,640 --> 01:55:51,040
Speaker 2: if the person they maye is somebody who has been

2122
01:55:51,360 --> 01:55:54,520
Speaker 2: like harassing those individuals online for weeks, or has been

2123
01:55:54,600 --> 01:55:56,960
Speaker 2: doxing them, or that as salted them at previous like,

2124
01:55:57,080 --> 01:55:59,600
Speaker 2: all of that is like relevant context, but it doesn't

2125
01:55:59,680 --> 01:56:03,360
Speaker 2: change objectively happened in that instant, right, Like, it's not

2126
01:56:04,120 --> 01:56:07,400
Speaker 2: on me to pretend that I think these sides are equal,

2127
01:56:07,800 --> 01:56:10,880
Speaker 2: but it is on me to accurately report like what happens. Yes,

2128
01:56:11,400 --> 01:56:13,640
Speaker 2: And I think one of the one of the areas

2129
01:56:13,720 --> 01:56:16,240
Speaker 2: in which a lot of people, especially when we were

2130
01:56:16,280 --> 01:56:19,480
Speaker 2: talking about, like, you know, situations like this, a lot

2131
01:56:19,520 --> 01:56:21,880
Speaker 2: of folks in kind of legacy media get stuff wrong.

2132
01:56:22,040 --> 01:56:23,720
Speaker 2: Is they think that all that matters and what is

2133
01:56:23,800 --> 01:56:27,200
Speaker 2: what happens in that moment, right, and what happened previously,

2134
01:56:27,320 --> 01:56:30,320
Speaker 2: what's happened in other engagements, what's happened like over you know,

2135
01:56:30,440 --> 01:56:32,520
Speaker 2: the last two or three years of however long the

2136
01:56:32,600 --> 01:56:35,400
Speaker 2: conflict has been going on that city is immaterial. Well,

2137
01:56:35,400 --> 01:56:37,360
Speaker 2: all that matters is what happened in that second when

2138
01:56:37,400 --> 01:56:41,240
Speaker 2: that reporter was Onseene. And if you're thinking that way,

2139
01:56:41,640 --> 01:56:44,000
Speaker 2: you're going to miss more than someone who comes in

2140
01:56:44,360 --> 01:56:46,440
Speaker 2: with just an outright bias, you know.

2141
01:56:46,840 --> 01:56:50,000
Speaker 8: Yeah, And like I think very often it's seen as

2142
01:56:50,080 --> 01:56:52,040
Speaker 8: kind of instead of being like a value of the

2143
01:56:52,080 --> 01:56:54,560
Speaker 8: outlet and the way it verifies information, it seems being

2144
01:56:54,600 --> 01:56:58,960
Speaker 8: a personal kind of like quality that journalists should have

2145
01:56:59,120 --> 01:57:02,320
Speaker 8: in every aspect their lives. Yeah, Like, I'm aware that

2146
01:57:02,520 --> 01:57:04,960
Speaker 8: some of the big legacy broadsheets in the us, like,

2147
01:57:05,600 --> 01:57:09,760
Speaker 8: you can't attend to protest unless you are covering the protest, right.

2148
01:57:10,400 --> 01:57:12,840
Speaker 2: And there's even that famous case of the journalists being like,

2149
01:57:12,920 --> 01:57:14,520
Speaker 2: I don't vote because I think that that would be

2150
01:57:14,560 --> 01:57:16,440
Speaker 2: a violation of my objectivity.

2151
01:57:16,600 --> 01:57:18,400
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I remember that. I got have forgotten

2152
01:57:18,400 --> 01:57:18,920
Speaker 8: about that one.

2153
01:57:19,360 --> 01:57:22,360
Speaker 2: Like you're allowed to have opinions, that's just not supposed

2154
01:57:22,400 --> 01:57:25,600
Speaker 2: to be the entire basis of your reporting, you know exactly.

2155
01:57:25,800 --> 01:57:29,160
Speaker 8: Yeah, Like, and I think sometimes because people always do

2156
01:57:29,280 --> 01:57:32,600
Speaker 8: have opinions, right, but the opinions that are conceived of

2157
01:57:32,840 --> 01:57:36,280
Speaker 8: as neutral and the ones that are conceived of as

2158
01:57:36,400 --> 01:57:41,320
Speaker 8: being subjective are very telling, right, Like, the media for

2159
01:57:41,360 --> 01:57:45,160
Speaker 8: a long time has been the domain of educated, older

2160
01:57:45,200 --> 01:57:47,880
Speaker 8: white men, like people like me. I guess I'm not old,

2161
01:57:48,040 --> 01:57:50,480
Speaker 8: but getting that way. And it also has been the

2162
01:57:50,520 --> 01:57:53,200
Speaker 8: domain of like capital in the state, right, like Jeffrey

2163
01:57:53,240 --> 01:57:58,680
Speaker 8: Bezos owned several newspapers pro market biases, pro capitalism, biases,

2164
01:57:59,200 --> 01:58:02,960
Speaker 8: pro state by those are not really investigated much in

2165
01:58:03,040 --> 01:58:07,280
Speaker 8: the media in the way that other biases might be. Right,

2166
01:58:07,880 --> 01:58:12,280
Speaker 8: It's also created this idea that the media always needs

2167
01:58:12,320 --> 01:58:15,280
Speaker 8: to shoot for the middle in any given discussion, which

2168
01:58:15,320 --> 01:58:18,800
Speaker 8: I kind of want to investigate a bit when Donald

2169
01:58:18,880 --> 01:58:21,840
Speaker 8: Trump says something which is overt, like Donald Trump has

2170
01:58:21,840 --> 01:58:24,440
Speaker 8: said things which are nativists, right, Nativism is a form

2171
01:58:24,480 --> 01:58:28,520
Speaker 8: of racism. Donald Trump, therefore has said racist shit. The

2172
01:58:28,640 --> 01:58:30,640
Speaker 8: way that this is far too often treated in the

2173
01:58:30,720 --> 01:58:34,839
Speaker 8: legacy media is it's the racist shit that Donald Trump said, correct,

2174
01:58:35,080 --> 01:58:38,240
Speaker 8: or like, maybe we should consider this racist thing that

2175
01:58:38,360 --> 01:58:41,200
Speaker 8: so and so has said, right, rather than this shit

2176
01:58:41,360 --> 01:58:43,879
Speaker 8: is racist Donald Trump has said some shit that it's racist,

2177
01:58:44,040 --> 01:58:48,600
Speaker 8: or other members of the Republican Party. All this serves

2178
01:58:48,640 --> 01:58:53,000
Speaker 8: to do is when we have a topic and the

2179
01:58:53,720 --> 01:58:57,000
Speaker 8: people in Congress anchor themselves on very far right, what

2180
01:58:57,200 --> 01:59:00,360
Speaker 8: is acceptable discourse, The media then moves discourse to to

2181
01:59:00,440 --> 01:59:02,600
Speaker 8: write such so that position is in the center right,

2182
01:59:02,720 --> 01:59:05,760
Speaker 8: it serves to ratchet the Overton window to the right.

2183
01:59:06,000 --> 01:59:08,720
Speaker 8: I'm demonstrating this for my colleagues with hand signals, which,

2184
01:59:08,760 --> 01:59:11,720
Speaker 8: of course only two of the hundreds of thousands of

2185
01:59:11,800 --> 01:59:14,200
Speaker 8: people listening to me will be able to see the

2186
01:59:14,320 --> 01:59:15,720
Speaker 8: right way to our podcast.

2187
01:59:16,400 --> 01:59:20,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was a very compelling mime of a ratchet

2188
01:59:21,400 --> 01:59:23,960
Speaker 4: like it looked like you basically were doing it. I

2189
01:59:24,000 --> 01:59:24,680
Speaker 4: could not tell.

2190
01:59:25,120 --> 01:59:27,800
Speaker 2: I couldn't tell the difference. No, that's why we call

2191
01:59:27,880 --> 01:59:31,720
Speaker 2: you ratchet straps out, got.

2192
01:59:31,680 --> 01:59:34,280
Speaker 8: Me a ratchet, Jimmy, Yeah, it's This podcast is sponsored

2193
01:59:34,280 --> 01:59:37,160
Speaker 8: by Invisible Ratchet. Now it's time to pivot to add.

2194
01:59:37,600 --> 01:59:39,880
Speaker 8: It's not time to pivot to add yet. I think

2195
01:59:40,160 --> 01:59:43,200
Speaker 8: we should talk about the way other professions concerned with

2196
01:59:43,320 --> 01:59:47,840
Speaker 8: the truths deal with this topic, right, because journalism is

2197
01:59:47,840 --> 01:59:52,120
Speaker 8: pretty much unique and considering objectivity something that we as

2198
01:59:52,160 --> 01:59:55,720
Speaker 8: individuals have to embody in every action that we take,

2199
01:59:56,160 --> 01:59:58,280
Speaker 8: and I guess the most relevant one will be academia,

2200
01:59:58,600 --> 02:00:01,360
Speaker 8: which is something else I am unfortunate enough to have

2201
02:00:01,520 --> 02:00:04,560
Speaker 8: participated in for far too much of my adult life.

2202
02:00:05,240 --> 02:00:09,680
Speaker 8: So academia still not great, But we have accepted that

2203
02:00:09,840 --> 02:00:11,840
Speaker 8: everyone is biased in academia.

2204
02:00:11,920 --> 02:00:12,040
Speaker 10: Right.

2205
02:00:12,880 --> 02:00:17,280
Speaker 8: We rely on, among many other things, something called standpoint theory, right,

2206
02:00:17,320 --> 02:00:20,400
Speaker 8: which is a cornerstone of modern feminist thought. Most of

2207
02:00:20,440 --> 02:00:21,720
Speaker 8: you will be aware of it, even if you're not

2208
02:00:21,800 --> 02:00:23,880
Speaker 8: aware of it. Basically, it holds that we see the

2209
02:00:23,920 --> 02:00:29,920
Speaker 8: world differently based on where we see it from. Our gender, sexuality, raise, ethnicity, experience, age,

2210
02:00:29,960 --> 02:00:32,240
Speaker 8: and a million other things impact the truth we know

2211
02:00:32,360 --> 02:00:35,200
Speaker 8: in the world we experience, and standpoint theory posits that

2212
02:00:35,280 --> 02:00:38,839
Speaker 8: perhaps people not from a certain thretting may have valuable

2213
02:00:38,920 --> 02:00:42,000
Speaker 8: insights into it. Right, So sometimes the outsider perspective is

2214
02:00:42,000 --> 02:00:44,840
Speaker 8: a valuable one. But also people from that setting may

2215
02:00:44,960 --> 02:00:48,760
Speaker 8: see things outsiders may not see, and we have to

2216
02:00:48,800 --> 02:00:52,480
Speaker 8: acknowledge those biases, right, and then continue to tell the truth.

2217
02:00:53,400 --> 02:00:55,400
Speaker 8: How do we tell the truth in academia we do

2218
02:00:55,480 --> 02:00:59,600
Speaker 8: something called peer review. Peer review is bad. Peer review

2219
02:01:00,280 --> 02:01:06,120
Speaker 8: strongly reinforces the status quote right. I will give one example.

2220
02:01:06,520 --> 02:01:09,320
Speaker 8: I once had a journal article, right for a history journal,

2221
02:01:09,600 --> 02:01:12,200
Speaker 8: killed in peer review. The piece was about the nineteen

2222
02:01:12,240 --> 02:01:15,879
Speaker 8: oh nine tour of Catalonia that was a bicycle competition

2223
02:01:16,000 --> 02:01:18,200
Speaker 8: for those of you who aren't familiar. It was killed

2224
02:01:18,240 --> 02:01:23,440
Speaker 8: because my media analysis didn't mention television coverage. The television

2225
02:01:23,760 --> 02:01:26,040
Speaker 8: was kind of crudely invented in the nineteen twenties, and

2226
02:01:26,080 --> 02:01:28,440
Speaker 8: did it become widely available until the nineteen forties, Right, Like,

2227
02:01:28,560 --> 02:01:33,280
Speaker 8: this is not a reasonable objection. Nonetheless, someone was able

2228
02:01:33,360 --> 02:01:35,200
Speaker 8: to kill my piece because of it. Because that's how

2229
02:01:35,280 --> 02:01:37,200
Speaker 8: peer review works, right. The people who are established, the

2230
02:01:37,200 --> 02:01:39,440
Speaker 8: people who are in positions of power, can kill your

2231
02:01:39,440 --> 02:01:41,120
Speaker 8: shit if they want to, and they can give the

2232
02:01:41,200 --> 02:01:44,600
Speaker 8: most ludicrous region. That is how peer review. Among other

2233
02:01:44,680 --> 02:01:48,920
Speaker 8: things reinforces status quo. Right. The other thing that we

2234
02:01:49,160 --> 02:01:53,400
Speaker 8: do in academias we declare our conflicts of interest, and

2235
02:01:53,520 --> 02:01:55,800
Speaker 8: this is something we don't do in journalism, right, Like

2236
02:01:56,360 --> 02:01:58,920
Speaker 8: outlets may have a conflict of interest policy, but again,

2237
02:01:59,120 --> 02:02:03,800
Speaker 8: like conflicts of interest aren't explicitly declared in a piece

2238
02:02:04,280 --> 02:02:06,800
Speaker 8: like you wouldn't see sometimes NPR does its.

2239
02:02:06,800 --> 02:02:10,040
Speaker 2: Actually, yeah, I mean a number of outlets do declare like,

2240
02:02:10,160 --> 02:02:13,440
Speaker 2: for example, this outlet is owned by someone who has

2241
02:02:13,520 --> 02:02:15,800
Speaker 2: a financial interest in the company we're reporting on, or

2242
02:02:15,840 --> 02:02:16,280
Speaker 2: something like that.

2243
02:02:16,720 --> 02:02:19,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, if the Washington Post is doing a story about

2244
02:02:19,880 --> 02:02:24,040
Speaker 4: Jeff Bezos or Amazon, Yeah, usually they will say in

2245
02:02:24,160 --> 02:02:26,680
Speaker 4: the bottom or the top that the paper is owned

2246
02:02:26,680 --> 02:02:28,440
Speaker 4: by said said figure.

2247
02:02:29,040 --> 02:02:32,280
Speaker 8: Yeah. Where it becomes more murky is like sometimes people

2248
02:02:32,360 --> 02:02:35,400
Speaker 8: have a financial interest or if something is your beat, right,

2249
02:02:35,640 --> 02:02:38,240
Speaker 8: you may have other financial interest within that beat.

2250
02:02:38,600 --> 02:02:41,280
Speaker 2: Well, and there's there's the very common case of people,

2251
02:02:41,800 --> 02:02:45,400
Speaker 2: especially now within kind of the sub stack journalism, being

2252
02:02:45,560 --> 02:02:48,920
Speaker 2: like friends and social with people that they are reporting

2253
02:02:49,000 --> 02:02:51,200
Speaker 2: on and not disclosing to their wider audience.

2254
02:02:51,680 --> 02:02:54,960
Speaker 8: Yeah, like access journalism more generally, right, Yeah, Like the

2255
02:02:55,040 --> 02:02:57,280
Speaker 8: way I got this piece was by being invited to

2256
02:02:57,360 --> 02:02:59,080
Speaker 8: the drinks party, and if I say anything, I'm kind

2257
02:02:59,120 --> 02:03:01,680
Speaker 8: about this person, I went invited to a drinks party. Yeah,

2258
02:03:02,560 --> 02:03:04,960
Speaker 8: or simply the conflict of interest and is presented by

2259
02:03:05,760 --> 02:03:08,720
Speaker 8: the more ludicrous my headline, the more people will click

2260
02:03:08,760 --> 02:03:10,720
Speaker 8: on this website, and the more time they will spend

2261
02:03:10,760 --> 02:03:12,880
Speaker 8: on the page, and the more addative you they might generate.

2262
02:03:13,080 --> 02:03:16,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's really the largest issue with modern journalism

2263
02:03:16,560 --> 02:03:20,200
Speaker 2: is that that kind of determines almost everything for an outlet.

2264
02:03:20,360 --> 02:03:23,160
Speaker 2: Is like, what's what's going to get clicks, what's going

2265
02:03:23,240 --> 02:03:26,240
Speaker 2: to rile people up as much as possible, And that

2266
02:03:26,840 --> 02:03:29,200
Speaker 2: doesn't count as financial interest, right, Like the fact that

2267
02:03:29,280 --> 02:03:31,640
Speaker 2: the outlet has a vested financial interest in keeping you

2268
02:03:31,760 --> 02:03:34,400
Speaker 2: on the page as often and as long as possible

2269
02:03:34,960 --> 02:03:38,000
Speaker 2: doesn't count as like a conflict of interest in any way.

2270
02:03:38,200 --> 02:03:41,400
Speaker 2: And that's kind of one of the fundamental issues, whereas,

2271
02:03:41,600 --> 02:03:44,200
Speaker 2: like a lot of times, a lot of outlets won't let,

2272
02:03:44,400 --> 02:03:47,560
Speaker 2: for example, a black journalist report on a black man

2273
02:03:47,640 --> 02:03:49,840
Speaker 2: being murdered by the police, right because they see that

2274
02:03:49,880 --> 02:03:52,880
Speaker 2: as like an inherent conflict of interest. And the gap

2275
02:03:53,000 --> 02:03:55,600
Speaker 2: between those two things is where a lot of the

2276
02:03:55,640 --> 02:03:57,760
Speaker 2: real problems, a lot of the worst problems in modern

2277
02:03:57,840 --> 02:03:58,920
Speaker 2: journalism arise.

2278
02:03:59,120 --> 02:04:14,040
Speaker 8: Yeah, problems we need to pay to adds. Sure, all right,

2279
02:04:14,080 --> 02:04:17,920
Speaker 8: we are back. Part of this also manifests in like

2280
02:04:18,640 --> 02:04:22,600
Speaker 8: journalists being supposed to not have any individual opinions about anything,

2281
02:04:22,800 --> 02:04:25,840
Speaker 8: even if it's irrelevant to their beat. This has been

2282
02:04:26,160 --> 02:04:29,880
Speaker 8: the case for a lot of people regarding the genocide

2283
02:04:29,920 --> 02:04:33,320
Speaker 8: of Palestinian people. Right, Like you could be the weekend editor,

2284
02:04:33,480 --> 02:04:36,760
Speaker 8: you could write about brunch, and if you work at

2285
02:04:36,800 --> 02:04:40,800
Speaker 8: certain outlets, you are like under pain of losing your job,

2286
02:04:41,040 --> 02:04:43,360
Speaker 8: not allowed to post to what is happening in Gaza

2287
02:04:43,520 --> 02:04:47,240
Speaker 8: is a genocide to take a stance on these issues, right,

2288
02:04:47,800 --> 02:04:51,000
Speaker 8: and that is bad. Like journalists are human beings too,

2289
02:04:51,240 --> 02:04:55,920
Speaker 8: and it's ridiculous to suggest that that we shouldn't or

2290
02:04:55,960 --> 02:04:58,720
Speaker 8: can't have opinions on these things and still do good reporting,

2291
02:04:58,920 --> 02:05:00,320
Speaker 8: right we can. We just have to make sure that

2292
02:05:00,360 --> 02:05:06,520
Speaker 8: they're reporting itself is accurate. Sometimes what this leads to

2293
02:05:07,040 --> 02:05:09,120
Speaker 8: is like like what I guess another like Rubbie, you

2294
02:05:09,120 --> 02:05:11,880
Speaker 8: spoke about it that like the inherent conflict of interests

2295
02:05:11,960 --> 02:05:15,880
Speaker 8: that like traffic on a website presents for journalism. Another

2296
02:05:16,040 --> 02:05:19,680
Speaker 8: like inherent issue is that like every source is seen

2297
02:05:19,720 --> 02:05:21,920
Speaker 8: as biased, right, Like you said, like black folks might

2298
02:05:22,000 --> 02:05:24,360
Speaker 8: not be allowed to report on black men being shown

2299
02:05:24,400 --> 02:05:28,080
Speaker 8: by the cops accept state sources, which are far too

2300
02:05:28,200 --> 02:05:30,400
Speaker 8: often seen as speaking the verbatim truth.

2301
02:05:30,600 --> 02:05:32,400
Speaker 2: Right, Well, this is what the police said.

2302
02:05:32,720 --> 02:05:35,000
Speaker 8: Yes, yeah, that is how we get I guess. A

2303
02:05:35,040 --> 02:05:36,880
Speaker 8: pretty good example of this, I'll link to it in

2304
02:05:37,000 --> 02:05:40,640
Speaker 8: the show notes is a piece I wrote five years

2305
02:05:40,680 --> 02:05:46,160
Speaker 8: ago I think about police officers overdosing on fentanyl. Some

2306
02:05:46,360 --> 02:05:47,960
Speaker 8: of you will be familiar with this, some of you

2307
02:05:48,040 --> 02:05:51,240
Speaker 8: will not, but it is not possible to overdose on

2308
02:05:51,400 --> 02:05:56,280
Speaker 8: fentanyl just from being in its presence, like in an

2309
02:05:56,360 --> 02:05:59,040
Speaker 8: outdoor area, next to a thing that has fental in it.

2310
02:05:59,800 --> 02:06:02,680
Speaker 8: The piece I wrote dealt with the San Diego Union Tribune,

2311
02:06:03,040 --> 02:06:07,200
Speaker 8: who this was a spectacular instance, I guess, of journalists

2312
02:06:07,400 --> 02:06:10,520
Speaker 8: like serving as police scenographers. What happened here is that

2313
02:06:10,600 --> 02:06:14,400
Speaker 8: the police had produced an edited video with like music

2314
02:06:14,440 --> 02:06:17,360
Speaker 8: and shit of this supposed overdose right of a of

2315
02:06:17,480 --> 02:06:20,320
Speaker 8: a young cop who was like, I don't know what

2316
02:06:20,360 --> 02:06:22,960
Speaker 8: they call it. He's like apprentice with an older cop,

2317
02:06:23,720 --> 02:06:26,160
Speaker 8: like with a more experienced cop. And they were going

2318
02:06:26,200 --> 02:06:28,960
Speaker 8: around doing cop stuff. They found some stuff. They tested

2319
02:06:29,000 --> 02:06:32,560
Speaker 8: it for fen andil, and this guy collapses the younger cop.

2320
02:06:32,600 --> 02:06:35,120
Speaker 8: The older cop gives him several knark Hans. He's not

2321
02:06:36,080 --> 02:06:39,440
Speaker 8: just wisteo. Yeah no, just like I think there was

2322
02:06:39,520 --> 02:06:46,320
Speaker 8: one instant where someone received seven Knarkans, which like that's

2323
02:06:46,360 --> 02:06:49,120
Speaker 8: a threat to your fucking nasal integrity of nothing else.

2324
02:06:49,320 --> 02:06:52,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, if Knarkan doesn't work the first time, like I mean,

2325
02:06:52,760 --> 02:06:56,240
Speaker 2: people do sometimes often it's not especially like with serious ods.

2326
02:06:56,280 --> 02:06:58,720
Speaker 2: They'll often put people like in the hospital on drips,

2327
02:06:58,800 --> 02:07:01,400
Speaker 2: but you would have to take a mess of dose,

2328
02:07:01,600 --> 02:07:04,440
Speaker 2: not just be near fucking yeah.

2329
02:07:04,480 --> 02:07:06,960
Speaker 8: Yeah, like be like I think this instance, I get

2330
02:07:07,000 --> 02:07:09,000
Speaker 8: they were outside testing it in like they're the boot

2331
02:07:09,040 --> 02:07:11,920
Speaker 8: of a car. Like it's ludicrist to think that you

2332
02:07:12,160 --> 02:07:14,880
Speaker 8: and like it would be good if they familiarize themselves

2333
02:07:14,960 --> 02:07:18,320
Speaker 8: with some of the what an overdose looks like, right, yeah,

2334
02:07:19,320 --> 02:07:20,080
Speaker 8: and I'm mixed.

2335
02:07:20,280 --> 02:07:23,240
Speaker 2: If they weren't cops, I'd respect the desire to like

2336
02:07:23,640 --> 02:07:25,600
Speaker 2: time theft from work, because I think that's what a

2337
02:07:25,640 --> 02:07:27,640
Speaker 2: lot of this is. It's like, oh shit, if I

2338
02:07:27,720 --> 02:07:31,560
Speaker 2: have an overdose, like I get to stay out of

2339
02:07:31,640 --> 02:07:33,000
Speaker 2: work a couple of days.

2340
02:07:32,840 --> 02:07:36,000
Speaker 8: With day that's a that's a that's a framing. I'm

2341
02:07:36,080 --> 02:07:39,680
Speaker 8: a medabal to you. Unfortunately they archives for if you're

2342
02:07:39,720 --> 02:07:44,240
Speaker 8: a reporter though, like it is absolutely on you to, oh,

2343
02:07:44,320 --> 02:07:46,680
Speaker 8: this person having an overdose, What are the symptoms of

2344
02:07:46,720 --> 02:07:49,760
Speaker 8: an overdose? What does an overdose look like? Should I

2345
02:07:49,880 --> 02:07:52,640
Speaker 8: talk to a medical professional or you could just ask

2346
02:07:53,480 --> 02:07:56,880
Speaker 8: the perlice information officer who shared this with you, how

2347
02:07:56,960 --> 02:07:59,760
Speaker 8: did you verify this as an overdose? With whom did

2348
02:07:59,800 --> 02:08:03,800
Speaker 8: you discuss the toxicology report in this case? That information

2349
02:08:03,880 --> 02:08:06,440
Speaker 8: wasn't available right the way I was able to obtain

2350
02:08:06,560 --> 02:08:09,480
Speaker 8: that just to do I guess clarity is, first of all,

2351
02:08:09,840 --> 02:08:13,160
Speaker 8: I saw the publication where they didn't mention any fact

2352
02:08:13,240 --> 02:08:16,720
Speaker 8: checking that they'd done. You can also pra the emails

2353
02:08:16,920 --> 02:08:18,800
Speaker 8: to the police as well as from the police, right,

2354
02:08:18,880 --> 02:08:21,400
Speaker 8: so you can see if other reporters have done fact

2355
02:08:21,480 --> 02:08:23,800
Speaker 8: checking that way or have asked any follow up questions

2356
02:08:23,840 --> 02:08:26,120
Speaker 8: that way I done, that they would have found out

2357
02:08:26,120 --> 02:08:28,840
Speaker 8: that you say that you can't overness in fentanyl this way,

2358
02:08:29,280 --> 02:08:31,440
Speaker 8: they didn't even try. And like both sides this, I

2359
02:08:31,480 --> 02:08:34,160
Speaker 8: guess like sometimes you'll see outlets doing that now, like

2360
02:08:34,360 --> 02:08:38,040
Speaker 8: this cop over dose from fentanyl, but doctors say they can't,

2361
02:08:38,400 --> 02:08:42,000
Speaker 8: Like it's a which I still think is an absolute

2362
02:08:42,080 --> 02:08:46,120
Speaker 8: ludicrous practice. Right. That's like saying this person tried to fly,

2363
02:08:46,480 --> 02:08:49,160
Speaker 8: but you know that people say gravity will make them

2364
02:08:49,200 --> 02:08:51,920
Speaker 8: fall to the ground. Like, what are these things we

2365
02:08:52,000 --> 02:08:55,600
Speaker 8: know to be true? So I guess what I would

2366
02:08:55,680 --> 02:09:00,440
Speaker 8: propose we do instead of this ludicrous practice of tending

2367
02:09:00,640 --> 02:09:03,840
Speaker 8: to be objective about everything all the time, is that

2368
02:09:04,040 --> 02:09:07,520
Speaker 8: we are honest about our biases, honest about our conflict

2369
02:09:07,520 --> 02:09:10,320
Speaker 8: of interest, We're honest about like our standpoint, and then

2370
02:09:10,920 --> 02:09:14,720
Speaker 8: we do reporting, which is obviously verifiable, right, And that means,

2371
02:09:14,840 --> 02:09:17,000
Speaker 8: like you'll see that at the end of these episodes, right,

2372
02:09:17,080 --> 02:09:20,600
Speaker 8: we share our sources that we used after we're try

2373
02:09:20,640 --> 02:09:23,240
Speaker 8: and communicate where we got information from and how we

2374
02:09:23,360 --> 02:09:26,880
Speaker 8: got it. And I think we should strive for moral

2375
02:09:26,960 --> 02:09:29,720
Speaker 8: clarity in the way we say things instead of striving

2376
02:09:29,760 --> 02:09:32,080
Speaker 8: to this middle ground. So, like, what do I mean

2377
02:09:32,120 --> 02:09:34,640
Speaker 8: by moral clarity? I mean saying the cops killed someone,

2378
02:09:35,320 --> 02:09:39,280
Speaker 8: not officer involved shooting. Right. If you work with fucking

2379
02:09:39,360 --> 02:09:42,200
Speaker 8: words and you find yourself writing something as convoluted as

2380
02:09:42,280 --> 02:09:48,080
Speaker 8: officer involved shooting, then you have strayed from the foundational

2381
02:09:48,760 --> 02:09:50,320
Speaker 8: reason for journalism existing.

2382
02:09:50,440 --> 02:09:52,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, you have gone beyond God's light.

2383
02:09:52,880 --> 02:09:56,160
Speaker 8: Yeah yeah, yeah, you live in the darkness. There is

2384
02:09:56,240 --> 02:09:59,600
Speaker 8: I think a place for fact checkers. I think people

2385
02:09:59,680 --> 02:10:03,040
Speaker 8: got to a bit carried away with fact checking. I

2386
02:10:03,080 --> 02:10:05,760
Speaker 8: don't quite know how to phrase this correctly. I had

2387
02:10:05,760 --> 02:10:08,520
Speaker 8: an experience once where I'd written a piece. The fact

2388
02:10:08,960 --> 02:10:12,000
Speaker 8: checking of that piece centered on the fact that I

2389
02:10:12,120 --> 02:10:17,280
Speaker 8: had used the noun beach chair to refer to this chair. Yes,

2390
02:10:18,200 --> 02:10:20,640
Speaker 8: the fact checker believed that it was a lawn chair.

2391
02:10:21,760 --> 02:10:27,520
Speaker 8: To me, did not impact the overall thrust of the piece,

2392
02:10:28,160 --> 02:10:31,000
Speaker 8: right like the nature of the chair. Unfortunately, that ended

2393
02:10:31,080 --> 02:10:33,520
Speaker 8: up killing the story. We ran out of time to

2394
02:10:33,720 --> 02:10:36,000
Speaker 8: go over to court documents because of the nature of

2395
02:10:36,040 --> 02:10:38,480
Speaker 8: the chair discussion. And I'm not sure that's what we

2396
02:10:38,560 --> 02:10:38,880
Speaker 8: need to do.

2397
02:10:40,120 --> 02:10:42,839
Speaker 2: No, I mean, and I think the other and probably

2398
02:10:42,840 --> 02:10:46,240
Speaker 2: the larger problem with fact checking is fact checking is

2399
02:10:46,440 --> 02:10:47,840
Speaker 2: an in in and of itself is ha ha.

2400
02:10:48,280 --> 02:10:49,360
Speaker 8: I showed that they were wrong.

2401
02:10:49,440 --> 02:10:51,480
Speaker 2: I checked the fact where it's like, yeah, but what

2402
02:10:51,600 --> 02:10:53,720
Speaker 2: they wrote got out to thirty million people and your

2403
02:10:53,760 --> 02:10:56,240
Speaker 2: fact check got out to like sixty So what you

2404
02:10:56,280 --> 02:10:58,240
Speaker 2: did didn't really matter. And what we should probably be

2405
02:10:58,360 --> 02:11:02,080
Speaker 2: doing is looking at an intervention higher up on the

2406
02:11:02,200 --> 02:11:04,680
Speaker 2: line to stop the bullshit from getting out rather than

2407
02:11:04,720 --> 02:11:07,520
Speaker 2: being obsessed with well, I've actchecked it, like, well but

2408
02:11:07,640 --> 02:11:10,280
Speaker 2: that didn't really help you know, yeah, right, Just at

2409
02:11:10,320 --> 02:11:12,440
Speaker 2: what point do we give that up as pointless?

2410
02:11:13,840 --> 02:11:17,640
Speaker 8: Yeah, like you are like not even a footnote to

2411
02:11:17,760 --> 02:11:18,960
Speaker 8: this other thing that this person.

2412
02:11:19,200 --> 02:11:21,680
Speaker 2: No, we need to the intervention needs to be happening

2413
02:11:21,800 --> 02:11:24,360
Speaker 2: earlier because the bullshit is still getting out.

2414
02:11:25,160 --> 02:11:28,640
Speaker 8: Yeah, absolutely, And this happens like we're in this bizarre

2415
02:11:28,720 --> 02:11:32,480
Speaker 8: situation where like writing outlets can say what the fuck

2416
02:11:32,680 --> 02:11:37,840
Speaker 8: they want, right like, like we have whole massive media

2417
02:11:37,880 --> 02:11:40,160
Speaker 8: empires going in on this idea that the twenty twenty

2418
02:11:40,200 --> 02:11:44,800
Speaker 8: election was stolen. Then we have like centrist outlets instead

2419
02:11:44,800 --> 02:11:47,600
Speaker 8: of being like, no, the election wasn't stolen. That that's bullshit,

2420
02:11:48,480 --> 02:11:52,160
Speaker 8: constantly trying to like investigate those claims as if they

2421
02:11:52,200 --> 02:11:55,840
Speaker 8: were credible and useful, rather than illustrating why they should

2422
02:11:55,880 --> 02:11:58,480
Speaker 8: be dismissed and then moving on, right like, instead of

2423
02:11:59,160 --> 02:12:02,680
Speaker 8: investigating this conspiracy is so important. We see that a

2424
02:12:02,720 --> 02:12:06,360
Speaker 8: lot with immigration right now, But we saw a ton

2425
02:12:07,160 --> 02:12:09,920
Speaker 8: in the presidential debates, right Like, It's a good example

2426
02:12:09,920 --> 02:12:11,960
Speaker 8: of what you were saying. Jd Vance can just lie

2427
02:12:12,720 --> 02:12:16,240
Speaker 8: and even Donald Trump actually can lie about people eating

2428
02:12:16,360 --> 02:12:19,920
Speaker 8: dogs and cats, and it doesn't hugely matter if an

2429
02:12:20,000 --> 02:12:22,880
Speaker 8: hour later and use outlet tweets, oh we fact check him,

2430
02:12:22,880 --> 02:12:26,400
Speaker 8: and it's not okay. Right, You're still broadcast to millions

2431
02:12:26,440 --> 02:12:29,120
Speaker 8: of people that Haitian migrants eat dogs and cats and

2432
02:12:29,200 --> 02:12:32,200
Speaker 8: that's not true. And I think we need to strive

2433
02:12:32,280 --> 02:12:35,120
Speaker 8: for something that it's closer to the truth, and it's

2434
02:12:35,120 --> 02:12:38,440
Speaker 8: closer to fairness, and it gives us moral clarity because

2435
02:12:39,000 --> 02:12:41,840
Speaker 8: what we're all doing right now, what the legacy media

2436
02:12:41,920 --> 02:12:44,800
Speaker 8: doing is doing right now, is like woefully inadequate to

2437
02:12:44,880 --> 02:12:45,480
Speaker 8: meet the moment.

2438
02:12:46,400 --> 02:12:49,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I agree, Like I think, where I

2439
02:12:49,720 --> 02:12:54,560
Speaker 2: don't actually know how to solve things is the incentive structure, Yeah,

2440
02:12:54,680 --> 02:12:57,360
Speaker 2: is so broken. And to an extent, all of us

2441
02:12:57,440 --> 02:13:00,320
Speaker 2: talk about objectivity. And when I say that, I'm like,

2442
02:13:00,440 --> 02:13:04,440
Speaker 2: the talk that outlets and editors have about objectivity, is

2443
02:13:04,520 --> 02:13:08,040
Speaker 2: there more than anything to obscure the fact that the

2444
02:13:08,240 --> 02:13:12,840
Speaker 2: economics of journalism make it almost impossible for it to

2445
02:13:12,920 --> 02:13:17,160
Speaker 2: be anything but a willing agent of disinformation. That's the

2446
02:13:17,280 --> 02:13:21,320
Speaker 2: real issue is you can have the Washington Post and

2447
02:13:21,440 --> 02:13:24,640
Speaker 2: you can have the New York Times host good reporting,

2448
02:13:25,240 --> 02:13:28,160
Speaker 2: but a huge amount of their income will always come

2449
02:13:28,200 --> 02:13:32,520
Speaker 2: from having columnists whose entire job is to piss people

2450
02:13:32,640 --> 02:13:36,560
Speaker 2: off or to stoke the egos of people in power.

2451
02:13:37,080 --> 02:13:40,080
Speaker 2: And I don't know that the good work those outlets

2452
02:13:40,120 --> 02:13:45,920
Speaker 2: does outweighs the crap that they spill into the public discourse,

2453
02:13:46,560 --> 02:13:51,120
Speaker 2: because that's what's incentivized. And so I think to an extent,

2454
02:13:51,840 --> 02:13:56,960
Speaker 2: there's almost no point in actually engaging with the objectivity

2455
02:13:57,040 --> 02:13:59,560
Speaker 2: debate with the people who are pushing it, because they're

2456
02:13:59,600 --> 02:14:02,480
Speaker 2: not push it honestly, They're pushing it as a way

2457
02:14:02,520 --> 02:14:05,360
Speaker 2: to obscure the fact that they make their money the

2458
02:14:05,440 --> 02:14:08,040
Speaker 2: same way Mark Zuckerberg makes his money, which is by

2459
02:14:08,520 --> 02:14:10,920
Speaker 2: spreading fear, anger, and doubt.

2460
02:14:11,720 --> 02:14:15,280
Speaker 8: Yeah. Yeah, that's the bad op ed industrial complex. Like

2461
02:14:16,080 --> 02:14:18,320
Speaker 8: I've been guilty of that. Right, you see a fucking

2462
02:14:18,360 --> 02:14:21,320
Speaker 8: headline on social media and you're like, that's bullshit, and

2463
02:14:21,400 --> 02:14:22,320
Speaker 8: then you click and read.

2464
02:14:22,520 --> 02:14:22,640
Speaker 10: Right.

2465
02:14:23,120 --> 02:14:24,600
Speaker 8: I used to, like when I was a little baby,

2466
02:14:24,680 --> 02:14:27,160
Speaker 8: journalist's engage with this and be like that's bullshit because

2467
02:14:27,600 --> 02:14:29,960
Speaker 8: and either try and write about it somewhere or post

2468
02:14:30,000 --> 02:14:32,400
Speaker 8: you on social media. But I have come to realize

2469
02:14:32,440 --> 02:14:35,680
Speaker 8: and in doing that, I'm doing exactly what they want

2470
02:14:35,720 --> 02:14:38,000
Speaker 8: me to do, which is continue sending people to their

2471
02:14:38,040 --> 02:14:40,880
Speaker 8: website to click on adverts and to make the money.

2472
02:14:41,040 --> 02:14:42,600
Speaker 8: So I think it's better that we do not do that.

2473
02:14:42,760 --> 02:14:47,320
Speaker 8: But yeah, that is the fundamental conceit of journalism right now.

2474
02:14:47,840 --> 02:14:50,880
Speaker 8: How it pays the bills is keeping you on that page,

2475
02:14:50,920 --> 02:14:52,320
Speaker 8: and a way it keeps you on that page is

2476
02:14:52,480 --> 02:14:55,720
Speaker 8: making you angry. There is like a model, I think,

2477
02:14:56,440 --> 02:15:00,720
Speaker 8: And you see this like in community small community newspapers

2478
02:15:00,800 --> 02:15:03,160
Speaker 8: right now, like I guess outlets like Left Coast Right

2479
02:15:03,240 --> 02:15:07,880
Speaker 8: Watching in California and Oregon, where like people genuinely buy

2480
02:15:08,040 --> 02:15:11,120
Speaker 8: building trust and telling the truth, gain the support of

2481
02:15:11,640 --> 02:15:15,480
Speaker 8: their communities and financed by them. But I mean the

2482
02:15:15,680 --> 02:15:19,320
Speaker 8: orders of magnitude and income difference are like they're not

2483
02:15:19,360 --> 02:15:21,600
Speaker 8: making Washington Post money over at Left Coast Right Watch.

2484
02:15:21,880 --> 02:15:25,960
Speaker 8: I know this should be true. So yeah, pretty fucked,

2485
02:15:26,520 --> 02:15:30,360
Speaker 8: and it will only get worse. I think like as

2486
02:15:30,400 --> 02:15:33,360
Speaker 8: we as far as we continue to slide into like

2487
02:15:33,480 --> 02:15:37,440
Speaker 8: the post truth fascism world, I can't really see our

2488
02:15:37,560 --> 02:15:41,480
Speaker 8: legacy outlets doing much about it. If all they are

2489
02:15:41,480 --> 02:15:43,880
Speaker 8: ever going to do is strive for the middle ground

2490
02:15:43,960 --> 02:15:44,160
Speaker 8: on this.

2491
02:15:45,200 --> 02:15:49,680
Speaker 2: Well, all right, okay, everybody, all right, they got off

2492
02:15:49,720 --> 02:15:51,080
Speaker 2: a good day in that world.

2493
02:16:10,160 --> 02:16:14,200
Speaker 4: This is it could happen here Executive Disorder, our weekly

2494
02:16:14,320 --> 02:16:16,280
Speaker 4: news gaest covering what's happening in the White House, the

2495
02:16:16,320 --> 02:16:18,720
Speaker 4: crumbling world, what it means for you. I'm Garrison Davis

2496
02:16:18,760 --> 02:16:22,840
Speaker 4: this episode, I'm joined by Robert Evans, James Stout, and

2497
02:16:23,000 --> 02:16:26,880
Speaker 4: Sophie Lichterman. Maybe maybe Sophie will decide to comment on

2498
02:16:26,960 --> 02:16:29,840
Speaker 4: some of this important important news we have today.

2499
02:16:30,240 --> 02:16:33,160
Speaker 2: To bless us, and maybe Robert will decide to forgive

2500
02:16:33,200 --> 02:16:35,879
Speaker 2: you for jumping into giving the title of this show

2501
02:16:36,000 --> 02:16:39,320
Speaker 2: and not letting me say electile dysfunction or something like that.

2502
02:16:39,959 --> 02:16:43,600
Speaker 2: We know I have not gotten over living. Let's talk

2503
02:16:43,640 --> 02:16:48,879
Speaker 2: about a pedophile. It's time for your Friday pedophile Update. Yeah,

2504
02:16:49,480 --> 02:16:52,400
Speaker 2: we call it the FREEO file minute. I don't like

2505
02:16:52,520 --> 02:16:56,920
Speaker 2: that it is free to callos SO. On August fifteenth,

2506
02:16:57,040 --> 02:17:01,360
Speaker 2: twenty twenty five, at eight thirty six Annoan that means

2507
02:17:01,480 --> 02:17:04,920
Speaker 2: in the morning, the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department Office

2508
02:17:04,959 --> 02:17:07,800
Speaker 2: of Public Information put up a press release with the

2509
02:17:07,879 --> 02:17:11,800
Speaker 2: title eight child sex predators arrested during undercover operation.

2510
02:17:12,480 --> 02:17:12,600
Speaker 4: Now.

2511
02:17:12,879 --> 02:17:16,600
Speaker 2: This was a report on a multi agency operation going

2512
02:17:16,640 --> 02:17:19,240
Speaker 2: after child sex predators that was headed by the Nevada

2513
02:17:19,320 --> 02:17:24,240
Speaker 2: Internet Crimes Against Children or ICAC organization, which is a

2514
02:17:24,360 --> 02:17:27,280
Speaker 2: joint operation that involves a mix of There's some detectives

2515
02:17:27,320 --> 02:17:29,920
Speaker 2: from the Las Vegas Metropolitan to Police, there's some folks

2516
02:17:29,959 --> 02:17:33,160
Speaker 2: from the FBI Child Exploitation Task Force, and then I

2517
02:17:33,200 --> 02:17:35,560
Speaker 2: guess the ICAC has its own task force. I've never

2518
02:17:35,600 --> 02:17:38,360
Speaker 2: heard of this group before, but there's a number of

2519
02:17:38,400 --> 02:17:41,480
Speaker 2: other law enforcement agents involved, including North Las Vegas Police,

2520
02:17:41,560 --> 02:17:45,280
Speaker 2: Henderson Police who actually posted declaration of arrest for the

2521
02:17:45,360 --> 02:17:48,400
Speaker 2: person that we'll be talking about. That's the Henderson Nevada Police,

2522
02:17:48,760 --> 02:17:52,920
Speaker 2: Homeland Security Investigations, and the Nevada Attorney General's Office. This

2523
02:17:53,200 --> 02:17:56,400
Speaker 2: was your standard sting to try and catch people who

2524
02:17:56,440 --> 02:17:58,760
Speaker 2: are attempting to have sex with kids, where you have

2525
02:17:59,200 --> 02:18:02,440
Speaker 2: undercover agents who are online. In this case, they were

2526
02:18:02,560 --> 02:18:06,600
Speaker 2: using an app called Pure and on WhatsApp. It looks like,

2527
02:18:06,840 --> 02:18:10,280
Speaker 2: as a general rule, these guys met the person that

2528
02:18:10,360 --> 02:18:13,320
Speaker 2: they thought was a minor on Pure and then took

2529
02:18:13,440 --> 02:18:16,320
Speaker 2: the conversation to WhatsApp to plan for an in person

2530
02:18:16,440 --> 02:18:20,119
Speaker 2: meeting where they then they you know the whole what's

2531
02:18:20,200 --> 02:18:22,280
Speaker 2: that guy who used to do the TV show where

2532
02:18:22,320 --> 02:18:25,520
Speaker 2: he would bust pedophiles And there were some ethical problems

2533
02:18:25,560 --> 02:18:27,680
Speaker 2: with Chris Hansen. They'd have their Chris Hansen moment, right,

2534
02:18:27,720 --> 02:18:31,040
Speaker 2: I'm familiar with this. Oh man, it didn't go well.

2535
02:18:31,520 --> 02:18:34,520
Speaker 2: So the story that people have been hearing and that

2536
02:18:34,640 --> 02:18:36,400
Speaker 2: kind of went viral out of this is that one

2537
02:18:36,440 --> 02:18:41,160
Speaker 2: of these eight people arrested was tom Ardiam Alexandrovitch, who

2538
02:18:41,360 --> 02:18:44,600
Speaker 2: was a high ranking cybersecurity official. He was the director

2539
02:18:45,080 --> 02:18:48,600
Speaker 2: of one of the divisions of Israel's top cybersecurity agency.

2540
02:18:49,120 --> 02:18:52,439
Speaker 2: So you know in Israeli government official working in cybersecurity

2541
02:18:52,560 --> 02:18:54,640
Speaker 2: is one of the guys arrested. He was in town

2542
02:18:54,840 --> 02:18:57,920
Speaker 2: in Las Vegas for the black Hat convention, which is

2543
02:18:58,080 --> 02:19:01,520
Speaker 2: like a hacking convention, and like a lot of hacking conventions,

2544
02:19:01,560 --> 02:19:03,880
Speaker 2: over time it has turned from a bunch of guys

2545
02:19:03,920 --> 02:19:06,560
Speaker 2: who do not like the Feds to just Feds, right,

2546
02:19:06,760 --> 02:19:09,400
Speaker 2: Like I think that's why the guy guy from Israel

2547
02:19:09,480 --> 02:19:13,080
Speaker 2: cybersecurity agency is at this thing, hitten on so fed

2548
02:19:13,240 --> 02:19:17,880
Speaker 2: allegedly fifteen year olds. So this guy is arrested and

2549
02:19:18,080 --> 02:19:21,000
Speaker 2: then he posts bail at ten grand and he flies

2550
02:19:21,080 --> 02:19:23,080
Speaker 2: back to Israel, which gets a lot of people in

2551
02:19:23,160 --> 02:19:27,840
Speaker 2: an uproar. Obviously, anything involving officials of the Israeli government

2552
02:19:27,959 --> 02:19:31,080
Speaker 2: is receiving heightened scrutiny right now, what with the genocide,

2553
02:19:31,480 --> 02:19:33,640
Speaker 2: and also for a long time, there's a lot of

2554
02:19:33,680 --> 02:19:36,200
Speaker 2: evidence of special treatment being given to agents of the

2555
02:19:36,240 --> 02:19:39,440
Speaker 2: government of Israel by the United States government, and so

2556
02:19:39,560 --> 02:19:41,879
Speaker 2: people are like, is that what's going on here, because

2557
02:19:41,879 --> 02:19:44,280
Speaker 2: this seems pretty fucked up. And I guess the first

2558
02:19:44,320 --> 02:19:46,320
Speaker 2: thing I should say is that it doesn't seem like

2559
02:19:46,480 --> 02:19:49,879
Speaker 2: he's being treated differently from anyone else in this sting.

2560
02:19:50,560 --> 02:19:55,040
Speaker 2: This is per statements made by the local government and

2561
02:19:55,200 --> 02:19:59,039
Speaker 2: by the Attorney General's office. This is the standard bail

2562
02:19:59,120 --> 02:20:02,560
Speaker 2: amount for this crime. And when people post bail for

2563
02:20:02,760 --> 02:20:05,040
Speaker 2: this crime, which is the standard amount of ten grand,

2564
02:20:05,400 --> 02:20:08,480
Speaker 2: there aren't conditions usually on the bail, which means it

2565
02:20:08,520 --> 02:20:11,000
Speaker 2: would not be standard to stop him from traveling or

2566
02:20:11,040 --> 02:20:13,240
Speaker 2: returning home. He's due to return to the United States

2567
02:20:13,320 --> 02:20:16,440
Speaker 2: in several weeks for the court proceedings to go on.

2568
02:20:16,840 --> 02:20:20,000
Speaker 2: So the short answer to this seems to be that, like, no,

2569
02:20:20,200 --> 02:20:22,480
Speaker 2: this is just kind of how the system works, and

2570
02:20:23,360 --> 02:20:25,360
Speaker 2: that might not be great, But he doesn't seem to

2571
02:20:25,440 --> 02:20:28,600
Speaker 2: have been given special treatment because he was an official

2572
02:20:28,640 --> 02:20:31,160
Speaker 2: of the Israeli government. Now, does that mean that that's

2573
02:20:31,200 --> 02:20:33,640
Speaker 2: going to prove to be what happens in the long run, No, Because,

2574
02:20:33,640 --> 02:20:35,800
Speaker 2: among other things, he might just not come back to

2575
02:20:35,920 --> 02:20:39,640
Speaker 2: the US. And if the Israeli government is a party

2576
02:20:39,720 --> 02:20:41,840
Speaker 2: to that, and like there isn't any kind of like

2577
02:20:42,680 --> 02:20:45,400
Speaker 2: action taken to force him to return to go through

2578
02:20:45,440 --> 02:20:47,880
Speaker 2: the legal process, then I'd say, yeah, there's something to

2579
02:20:47,959 --> 02:20:50,560
Speaker 2: be particularly upset about here. But I think the broader

2580
02:20:50,600 --> 02:20:52,680
Speaker 2: thing to maybe be upset about here is that guys

2581
02:20:52,720 --> 02:20:54,520
Speaker 2: can get caught for this and then have a no

2582
02:20:54,640 --> 02:20:56,960
Speaker 2: condition bail that allows them to flee the country, which

2583
02:20:57,120 --> 02:20:58,840
Speaker 2: might be a flaw in the system.

2584
02:20:59,160 --> 02:20:59,280
Speaker 13: Right.

2585
02:20:59,840 --> 02:21:02,360
Speaker 2: I'm a big innocent until proven guilty guy. I'm a

2586
02:21:02,520 --> 02:21:04,800
Speaker 2: big reasonable bail guy. But I'm also a big I

2587
02:21:04,840 --> 02:21:06,560
Speaker 2: don't know man. Maybe if the agent of a foreign

2588
02:21:06,600 --> 02:21:09,080
Speaker 2: government gets caught trying to fuck a child, they shouldn't

2589
02:21:09,080 --> 02:21:10,520
Speaker 2: be able to fly back home immediately.

2590
02:21:11,120 --> 02:21:12,400
Speaker 6: Do they bail out? I don't know.

2591
02:21:13,440 --> 02:21:15,280
Speaker 8: To seems that it's a reasonable objection.

2592
02:21:15,879 --> 02:21:16,119
Speaker 1: Yeah.

2593
02:21:16,640 --> 02:21:18,560
Speaker 8: So you know, this is a classic case.

2594
02:21:18,600 --> 02:21:21,680
Speaker 2: If you've got the story what actually happened here, then

2595
02:21:21,720 --> 02:21:24,680
Speaker 2: you've got how it's interpreted online, and then you've got

2596
02:21:25,200 --> 02:21:28,560
Speaker 2: how it's being interpreted online by the stupidest person on

2597
02:21:28,600 --> 02:21:31,160
Speaker 2: the world, on the planet, in the planet, and in

2598
02:21:31,280 --> 02:21:33,200
Speaker 2: that planet that didn't work.

2599
02:21:33,560 --> 02:21:35,160
Speaker 8: Oh, it'd be good if he was, wouldn't it in

2600
02:21:35,240 --> 02:21:38,680
Speaker 8: the molten cools? Yeah, that would be nice.

2601
02:21:39,400 --> 02:21:42,519
Speaker 2: You've got how this story is being interpreted by particularly

2602
02:21:42,959 --> 02:21:45,600
Speaker 2: bad journalists. Let's say that that's the nice way to

2603
02:21:45,640 --> 02:21:48,360
Speaker 2: put it. And I'm talking about Michael Tracy. If you're

2604
02:21:48,400 --> 02:21:51,480
Speaker 2: not familiar with Michael Tracy, he is ostensibly a leftist

2605
02:21:51,560 --> 02:21:54,680
Speaker 2: and anti authoritarian. He's the kind of guy who just

2606
02:21:54,720 --> 02:21:58,040
Speaker 2: sort of reflexibly if the US is involved, whatever is

2607
02:21:58,120 --> 02:22:01,200
Speaker 2: the worst case scenario for the US doing something is

2608
02:22:01,240 --> 02:22:04,480
Speaker 2: what's happening. During the invasion of Ukraine, he alleged that

2609
02:22:04,480 --> 02:22:07,040
Speaker 2: the US was sending troops into Ukraine. I think because

2610
02:22:07,080 --> 02:22:09,400
Speaker 2: he saw some guys outside of an embassy in Poland,

2611
02:22:09,480 --> 02:22:10,520
Speaker 2: some American soldier for.

2612
02:22:10,600 --> 02:22:12,840
Speaker 8: The marine details and some of the marine detail.

2613
02:22:12,879 --> 02:22:14,480
Speaker 6: It was like, we're getting ready to invade.

2614
02:22:15,879 --> 02:22:16,800
Speaker 8: That did not happen.

2615
02:22:17,760 --> 02:22:21,680
Speaker 2: Now, Michael Tracy has a sub stack, of course, many

2616
02:22:21,800 --> 02:22:24,360
Speaker 2: such cases. And he published an article titled was an

2617
02:22:24,440 --> 02:22:27,920
Speaker 2: Israeli pedophile really allowed to flee the United States? And

2618
02:22:28,920 --> 02:22:31,279
Speaker 2: I can't tell He starts with like a whole paragraph

2619
02:22:31,320 --> 02:22:33,920
Speaker 2: about Jeffrey Epstein, and I can't actually tell what his

2620
02:22:34,040 --> 02:22:36,680
Speaker 2: stance is on this, and I don't really want he's

2621
02:22:36,680 --> 02:22:38,520
Speaker 2: talking about how people are eager to prove him wrong

2622
02:22:38,560 --> 02:22:40,880
Speaker 2: about Jeffrey Epstein. I have no desire to know what

2623
02:22:40,959 --> 02:22:42,520
Speaker 2: this guy thinks about Jeffrey Epstein.

2624
02:22:43,040 --> 02:22:45,560
Speaker 4: This is probably a Jeffrey Epstein was a secret massad

2625
02:22:45,640 --> 02:22:46,520
Speaker 4: agent type thing.

2626
02:22:47,160 --> 02:22:49,920
Speaker 2: Well, except for his whole argument here is that there's

2627
02:22:50,560 --> 02:22:54,320
Speaker 2: people are being incredibly unreasonable to think that this guy

2628
02:22:54,480 --> 02:22:57,160
Speaker 2: is guilty or to think that he probably did anything wrong.

2629
02:22:57,280 --> 02:23:02,040
Speaker 2: And the reason Michael Tracy suggests that Alexandrovitch probably didn't

2630
02:23:02,040 --> 02:23:05,480
Speaker 2: do anything wrong is that the terms of the app pure,

2631
02:23:05,800 --> 02:23:08,480
Speaker 2: which is where the authorities say he first got in

2632
02:23:08,560 --> 02:23:11,640
Speaker 2: contact with the officer pretending to be a child, requires

2633
02:23:11,680 --> 02:23:13,760
Speaker 2: you to be eighteen years or older. And in this

2634
02:23:13,840 --> 02:23:18,720
Speaker 2: substack he posts post the terms of service to be

2635
02:23:18,879 --> 02:23:21,520
Speaker 2: like ce. There is even what appears to be a

2636
02:23:21,640 --> 02:23:24,960
Speaker 2: rigorous age verification process to ensure that no minor gains

2637
02:23:25,000 --> 02:23:27,879
Speaker 2: access to the app. Government issued documents must be submitted

2638
02:23:27,879 --> 02:23:30,000
Speaker 2: to ensure that only persons at least eighteen years of

2639
02:23:30,080 --> 02:23:32,200
Speaker 2: older allowed on the app. And he's like does this

2640
02:23:32,360 --> 02:23:35,839
Speaker 2: mean the government was faking documents, was pretending.

2641
02:23:35,480 --> 02:23:37,119
Speaker 8: To be a child to this app.

2642
02:23:37,440 --> 02:23:39,720
Speaker 2: Yet that's what they were doing, Well, they were pretending

2643
02:23:39,720 --> 02:23:42,240
Speaker 2: to be a child, Jeremary, Yeah, that's probably what they

2644
02:23:42,280 --> 02:23:44,959
Speaker 2: were doing. And the other thing what's really funny about

2645
02:23:44,959 --> 02:23:46,640
Speaker 2: this is like that's his whole point is that the

2646
02:23:46,720 --> 02:23:49,040
Speaker 2: app requires them to be eighteen, So it's you know,

2647
02:23:49,400 --> 02:23:52,360
Speaker 2: the authorities must have been doing something fucked up and

2648
02:23:52,480 --> 02:23:54,440
Speaker 2: lying to the app for this to have happened at all.

2649
02:23:54,760 --> 02:23:56,920
Speaker 2: And this is just an example of Michael Tracy not

2650
02:23:57,160 --> 02:24:01,039
Speaker 2: reading the declaration of arrest, which he links in his article,

2651
02:24:01,440 --> 02:24:04,440
Speaker 2: because the declaration of arrest does say that, yes, this

2652
02:24:04,600 --> 02:24:07,160
Speaker 2: person got in contact with the undercover agent bearing the

2653
02:24:07,200 --> 02:24:09,680
Speaker 2: peer up and then the same sentence says and later

2654
02:24:09,920 --> 02:24:12,880
Speaker 2: WhatsApp with phone number dot dot dot and says that

2655
02:24:13,080 --> 02:24:16,360
Speaker 2: on WhatsApp, this is where they talked about the person

2656
02:24:16,760 --> 02:24:18,960
Speaker 2: in this case being a minor, and this is where

2657
02:24:19,000 --> 02:24:22,000
Speaker 2: they set up like to arrange a meeting. This Israeli

2658
02:24:22,040 --> 02:24:24,200
Speaker 2: cybersecurity official was going to take them to circ the

2659
02:24:24,280 --> 02:24:25,800
Speaker 2: slat and had them bring a condom.

2660
02:24:26,360 --> 02:24:29,199
Speaker 8: Like that's all in the declaration of arrest.

2661
02:24:29,400 --> 02:24:33,320
Speaker 2: Now, obviously Alexandrovitch maintains his innocence, maintains he thought this

2662
02:24:33,400 --> 02:24:36,400
Speaker 2: person was eighteen all the entire time. All I've got

2663
02:24:36,440 --> 02:24:38,920
Speaker 2: here is the declaration of arrest. I don't have hard evidence,

2664
02:24:39,000 --> 02:24:43,000
Speaker 2: but per the source that Michael Tracy cites, like this

2665
02:24:43,200 --> 02:24:46,360
Speaker 2: is not just happening on pure This is as is

2666
02:24:46,480 --> 02:24:48,959
Speaker 2: often the case, by the way, when pedophiles go after kids,

2667
02:24:49,160 --> 02:24:51,640
Speaker 2: they meet them on whatever app and then take them

2668
02:24:51,720 --> 02:24:54,840
Speaker 2: to a second digital location, right, Like That's just the

2669
02:24:54,920 --> 02:24:57,400
Speaker 2: way these things work. And that's really all I have

2670
02:24:57,520 --> 02:24:59,320
Speaker 2: to say about this. You know this, This is the

2671
02:24:59,400 --> 02:25:01,039
Speaker 2: kind of I keep an eye on this in case

2672
02:25:01,120 --> 02:25:03,200
Speaker 2: this guy doesn't go back and the Israeli government does

2673
02:25:03,320 --> 02:25:05,920
Speaker 2: hide him. But it's entirely possible that this will go

2674
02:25:06,120 --> 02:25:08,320
Speaker 2: the way court cases and this sort of thing are

2675
02:25:08,360 --> 02:25:11,200
Speaker 2: supposed to go. There's one other funny thing, considering this

2676
02:25:11,280 --> 02:25:14,960
Speaker 2: guy is a high ranking Israeli cybersecurity official, there's just

2677
02:25:15,080 --> 02:25:17,400
Speaker 2: like a list of, you know, statements about like what

2678
02:25:17,560 --> 02:25:21,760
Speaker 2: Alexandrovitch said to detectives when he was being interrogated, you know,

2679
02:25:21,879 --> 02:25:24,640
Speaker 2: the stuff like Alexander Alexandrovitch stated he did not know

2680
02:25:24,680 --> 02:25:27,280
Speaker 2: the numbers for the Israeli government. Alexandrovitch stated his family

2681
02:25:27,400 --> 02:25:30,160
Speaker 2: was an Israel Alexandrovitch stated it was important he get

2682
02:25:30,240 --> 02:25:33,119
Speaker 2: numbers for his flight, and then Alexandrovitch stated his phone

2683
02:25:33,160 --> 02:25:35,840
Speaker 2: does not have a password but uses his right thumb print.

2684
02:25:36,040 --> 02:25:42,480
Speaker 9: No, a biometric user, cybersecurity expert for the histor government

2685
02:25:42,640 --> 02:25:45,640
Speaker 9: and not sending the best people. Oh my god, your

2686
02:25:45,720 --> 02:25:48,840
Speaker 9: fucking thumb print, dude, your fucking thumb print.

2687
02:25:49,200 --> 02:25:54,960
Speaker 8: Okay, yeah, it's just famous, most secure possible access code.

2688
02:25:55,200 --> 02:25:57,960
Speaker 2: Anyway, That's all I've got for peta Friday tune in

2689
02:25:58,080 --> 02:25:59,680
Speaker 2: next week we'll have another pedophile.

2690
02:26:00,480 --> 02:26:14,600
Speaker 8: I'm sure of it. Oh yeah, here's ads. All right,

2691
02:26:14,640 --> 02:26:17,240
Speaker 8: we're back, and it is a pedophile free will. We

2692
02:26:17,280 --> 02:26:20,880
Speaker 8: can't guarantee that, I suppose, but we're hoping Peter free

2693
02:26:20,959 --> 02:26:24,440
Speaker 8: zone from here on it. Talking of things which are

2694
02:26:24,760 --> 02:26:31,880
Speaker 8: incontrovertibly crimes, Israel has deliberately murdered for Al Jazeera journalists

2695
02:26:31,920 --> 02:26:34,360
Speaker 8: in Gaza. Among them was an us Our Sharif, a

2696
02:26:34,440 --> 02:26:38,040
Speaker 8: prominent correspondent for the network in Gaza. The IDF also

2697
02:26:38,200 --> 02:26:45,120
Speaker 8: killed correspondent Mohammed Karka, cameraman Ibrahim Zaiah and driver in cameeronman.

2698
02:26:45,240 --> 02:26:48,400
Speaker 8: Mohammed Nofal Al Jazeera has named all of these people.

2699
02:26:48,520 --> 02:26:51,840
Speaker 8: The strike also killed two freelancers. One of them was

2700
02:26:52,080 --> 02:26:56,400
Speaker 8: mom And Aliwa and al Shariff's nephew, who was a

2701
02:26:56,480 --> 02:27:00,959
Speaker 8: student studying journalism for weeks before the written pre meditated

2702
02:27:01,040 --> 02:27:03,560
Speaker 8: war crime to war crime under a Rome statue and

2703
02:27:03,640 --> 02:27:07,120
Speaker 8: also a violation of the Geneva Conventions because journalists are

2704
02:27:07,160 --> 02:27:11,720
Speaker 8: also civilians. The idea of engaged in manufacturing consent for

2705
02:27:11,800 --> 02:27:14,280
Speaker 8: the strike. They did this through unit that nine to

2706
02:27:14,320 --> 02:27:18,640
Speaker 8: seven two magazine has reported on called the quote legitimization cell.

2707
02:27:19,360 --> 02:27:22,360
Speaker 8: You're always doing great way when you have a unit

2708
02:27:22,440 --> 02:27:26,640
Speaker 8: called the legitimization cell. Yeah, that's yeah. It's pretty fucked

2709
02:27:26,840 --> 02:27:29,600
Speaker 8: to quote from the piece which are link below. It

2710
02:27:29,720 --> 02:27:32,240
Speaker 8: has been a signed to identify Gaza based journalist it

2711
02:27:32,320 --> 02:27:35,199
Speaker 8: could betray as undercover her mass operatives in an effort

2712
02:27:35,320 --> 02:27:39,600
Speaker 8: to blunt growing global outrage over Israel's killing of reporters.

2713
02:27:40,640 --> 02:27:44,000
Speaker 8: You should read this article like it goes through instances

2714
02:27:44,040 --> 02:27:46,960
Speaker 8: whether they have a very clear confirmation bias right, and

2715
02:27:48,000 --> 02:27:51,200
Speaker 8: the case of Alcherifhys is a pretty good example of

2716
02:27:51,360 --> 02:27:54,280
Speaker 8: how ridiculous this can be. They released this document. They

2717
02:27:54,320 --> 02:27:56,879
Speaker 8: tweeted it actually claiming he was in her masks from

2718
02:27:56,959 --> 02:28:01,320
Speaker 8: twenty thirteen to twenty seventeen. The document clearly wasn't original document,

2719
02:28:01,400 --> 02:28:03,400
Speaker 8: Like it was a PDF done up with like a

2720
02:28:03,480 --> 02:28:06,600
Speaker 8: navy blue background and stuff. It's laughable to think that

2721
02:28:06,680 --> 02:28:10,840
Speaker 8: they like captured this pdf somehow. It just doesn't line

2722
02:28:10,920 --> 02:28:13,600
Speaker 8: up even if we take that to be true, right,

2723
02:28:13,680 --> 02:28:15,480
Speaker 8: that he had been a member of her mass till

2724
02:28:15,520 --> 02:28:19,040
Speaker 8: twenty seventeen, that was eight years ago. Like, isn't the

2725
02:28:19,120 --> 02:28:20,920
Speaker 8: whole point of the thing that they're saying that they

2726
02:28:20,959 --> 02:28:23,640
Speaker 8: want people to stop being in her mass, like killing

2727
02:28:23,720 --> 02:28:27,320
Speaker 8: them because they wanted that, And I don't believe them.

2728
02:28:28,440 --> 02:28:31,200
Speaker 8: It still doesn't make sense, right. They've done this in

2729
02:28:31,360 --> 02:28:34,920
Speaker 8: other cases with other Juras, specifically other Al Jazeera journalists.

2730
02:28:35,480 --> 02:28:38,400
Speaker 8: In July this year, the CPJA that's a committee to

2731
02:28:38,440 --> 02:28:41,320
Speaker 8: protect journalists if you're not familiar, warned that they were

2732
02:28:41,440 --> 02:28:43,640
Speaker 8: worried about an attack on al Sharif due to the

2733
02:28:43,720 --> 02:28:47,040
Speaker 8: increasingly detached from reality smear campaign being pursued against him

2734
02:28:47,040 --> 02:28:51,400
Speaker 8: by IDs spokesman of Vich Adray. For example, on the

2735
02:28:51,440 --> 02:28:55,120
Speaker 8: twenties July Adray accused him of being quote part of

2736
02:28:55,240 --> 02:28:59,600
Speaker 8: a quote false her Mask campaign on Starvation as he

2737
02:28:59,640 --> 02:29:03,600
Speaker 8: played footage of Alcherif crying after seeing a woman collapse

2738
02:29:03,640 --> 02:29:07,200
Speaker 8: from hunger on camera. Speaking about the campaign, al Chherif

2739
02:29:07,360 --> 02:29:10,120
Speaker 8: said it is not only a media threat or an

2740
02:29:10,160 --> 02:29:13,440
Speaker 8: image destruction, it is a real life threat. He said

2741
02:29:13,480 --> 02:29:16,320
Speaker 8: it's in his interview with CPJ. He also said, I

2742
02:29:16,440 --> 02:29:18,160
Speaker 8: live with the feeling that I could be bombed and

2743
02:29:18,280 --> 02:29:21,320
Speaker 8: martyred at any moment. My family is also in danger,

2744
02:29:22,040 --> 02:29:24,080
Speaker 8: and his nephew was killed with him right in the

2745
02:29:24,200 --> 02:29:27,680
Speaker 8: earth strike. When I think about like, I have colleagues

2746
02:29:27,760 --> 02:29:29,879
Speaker 8: I've worked with through a Palestinian who work in Gaza.

2747
02:29:30,200 --> 02:29:35,320
Speaker 8: I remember twenty twenty three October tenth, twenty twenty three,

2748
02:29:35,400 --> 02:29:39,720
Speaker 8: I was in Syria and Rajaba specifically, and I was

2749
02:29:39,760 --> 02:29:42,520
Speaker 8: sitting in a t shop because the Wi Fi and

2750
02:29:42,560 --> 02:29:45,000
Speaker 8: my hotel was non existent, and I wanted to check

2751
02:29:45,040 --> 02:29:47,760
Speaker 8: in on my friends, right who worked there, And I

2752
02:29:47,800 --> 02:29:51,800
Speaker 8: remember this guy helping me translate one of these videos

2753
02:29:51,840 --> 02:29:54,360
Speaker 8: in which you see a dead person in the blue

2754
02:29:54,400 --> 02:29:56,480
Speaker 8: press vest, right, and I was concerned that it might

2755
02:29:56,520 --> 02:29:58,320
Speaker 8: be someone I've worked with before, so I was trying

2756
02:29:58,320 --> 02:30:00,320
Speaker 8: to work out it with them, and he saying in

2757
02:30:00,360 --> 02:30:03,280
Speaker 8: this video at the funeral, people were saying that another

2758
02:30:03,360 --> 02:30:05,640
Speaker 8: journalist would take up the dead journalist camera and the

2759
02:30:05,720 --> 02:30:08,720
Speaker 8: flag jacket and keep reporting, which is very touching for me.

2760
02:30:08,959 --> 02:30:11,920
Speaker 8: But journalists in Gaza have been targeted by the IDF

2761
02:30:12,000 --> 02:30:14,480
Speaker 8: for a very long time, and this is one of

2762
02:30:14,640 --> 02:30:18,640
Speaker 8: many examples, and it's disgusting and reprehensible. That's about all

2763
02:30:18,680 --> 02:30:20,200
Speaker 8: I have to say on it. Should we turn to

2764
02:30:20,280 --> 02:30:25,440
Speaker 8: immigration for something equally despondent and sad? Yeah, all right.

2765
02:30:26,200 --> 02:30:30,959
Speaker 8: USCIS US Citizenship and Immigration Services has issued a new

2766
02:30:31,320 --> 02:30:34,920
Speaker 8: guidance material to instruct offices in cases where they can

2767
02:30:35,040 --> 02:30:37,959
Speaker 8: use their discretion to look at whether the person has

2768
02:30:38,040 --> 02:30:41,840
Speaker 8: quote endorsed, promoted, or supported, or otherwise espouse the views

2769
02:30:41,840 --> 02:30:45,600
Speaker 8: of a terrorist organization or group, including those who support

2770
02:30:45,720 --> 02:30:49,920
Speaker 8: or promote anti American ideologies and activities, anti Semitic terrorism

2771
02:30:50,080 --> 02:30:53,400
Speaker 8: from skipping a bit here, and anti Semitic ideologies. This

2772
02:30:53,640 --> 02:30:57,440
Speaker 8: discretion can be used in extension of staycases, change of

2773
02:30:57,560 --> 02:31:01,880
Speaker 8: status cases, reinstatement or f or non immigrant status, and

2774
02:31:01,959 --> 02:31:05,200
Speaker 8: certain employment authorization requests, they say in the moment. The

2775
02:31:05,320 --> 02:31:09,120
Speaker 8: USCIS policy Manual also lists other instances where discretion could

2776
02:31:09,120 --> 02:31:13,720
Speaker 8: be used These include TPS, temporary protected status, humanitarian parole,

2777
02:31:14,400 --> 02:31:16,840
Speaker 8: partition to classify an alien as a fiancee of a

2778
02:31:16,959 --> 02:31:21,080
Speaker 8: US citizen, asylum and refugee status. So I looked up

2779
02:31:21,120 --> 02:31:25,080
Speaker 8: what the quote anti American activities were. There's a footnote right.

2780
02:31:25,320 --> 02:31:29,760
Speaker 8: The footnote links to IA three one three, a Immigration

2781
02:31:29,920 --> 02:31:33,760
Speaker 8: Naturalization Act. Most of the anti American activities are things

2782
02:31:33,760 --> 02:31:37,240
Speaker 8: which already had a bar to naturalization, and most of

2783
02:31:37,240 --> 02:31:40,119
Speaker 8: those pertain directly to being a member of the Communist Party,

2784
02:31:40,800 --> 02:31:45,119
Speaker 8: like a literal card carrying member of the literal Communist Party,

2785
02:31:45,240 --> 02:31:48,280
Speaker 8: right capital C, Capital P. The US who had a

2786
02:31:48,400 --> 02:31:51,480
Speaker 8: bar on naturalization for people who are members of the

2787
02:31:51,520 --> 02:31:54,800
Speaker 8: Communist Party for some time. I believe they still have

2788
02:31:54,959 --> 02:31:58,120
Speaker 8: a bar on naturalization for people who were members of

2789
02:31:58,200 --> 02:32:01,320
Speaker 8: the Nazi Party. Preview a waiver, I should say, not

2790
02:32:01,400 --> 02:32:04,600
Speaker 8: actually a visa. When people from Europe coming to United States,

2791
02:32:04,640 --> 02:32:07,240
Speaker 8: you'd have to answer a short questionnaire. One of the

2792
02:32:07,320 --> 02:32:10,000
Speaker 8: questions was about whether you or anyone related to you

2793
02:32:10,120 --> 02:32:13,040
Speaker 8: had been a member of the Nazi Party. I remember,

2794
02:32:13,240 --> 02:32:15,960
Speaker 8: like once being some German people in Europe and they

2795
02:32:16,000 --> 02:32:17,920
Speaker 8: were telling me they'd had to answer this question entering

2796
02:32:17,959 --> 02:32:21,800
Speaker 8: the United States. So the anti American activities is the

2797
02:32:21,840 --> 02:32:25,000
Speaker 8: one that's been getting the most attention, But it does

2798
02:32:25,040 --> 02:32:29,199
Speaker 8: specifically footnote to the communist stuff, which is again something

2799
02:32:29,280 --> 02:32:31,480
Speaker 8: that that has been US policy for a while. What

2800
02:32:31,840 --> 02:32:35,720
Speaker 8: I'm more worried about is stuff about anti Semitic terrorism.

2801
02:32:36,440 --> 02:32:40,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, because that means one, you've shared a pro Palestine

2802
02:32:41,160 --> 02:32:42,760
Speaker 4: post on social media.

2803
02:32:42,920 --> 02:32:44,200
Speaker 8: Yeah you said genocide bad.

2804
02:32:44,480 --> 02:32:46,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, that can mean so many things that as we've

2805
02:32:46,840 --> 02:32:48,680
Speaker 4: already seen, like we've seen some of this stuff already

2806
02:32:48,720 --> 02:32:52,440
Speaker 4: be enforced. This is new guidance material, but we've seen

2807
02:32:52,520 --> 02:32:54,520
Speaker 4: reports coming from people trying to enter the country or

2808
02:32:54,560 --> 02:32:57,240
Speaker 4: trying to get visas that show that this is happening

2809
02:32:57,720 --> 02:33:00,480
Speaker 4: for like months ever since, like you know, like March,

2810
02:33:00,560 --> 02:33:03,080
Speaker 4: I started to see a lot of stuff regarding either

2811
02:33:03,200 --> 02:33:08,000
Speaker 4: pro Palestinian statements or like posts or campus protests that

2812
02:33:08,080 --> 02:33:08,640
Speaker 4: sort of stuff.

2813
02:33:09,240 --> 02:33:11,040
Speaker 8: Yeah. The f visa I mentioned there is it's a

2814
02:33:11,080 --> 02:33:13,640
Speaker 8: non immigrant student visa right for full time students. So

2815
02:33:13,920 --> 02:33:16,760
Speaker 8: like that is the one where we've seen students having

2816
02:33:16,800 --> 02:33:19,440
Speaker 8: to turn over their social media handles or social media

2817
02:33:19,520 --> 02:33:22,440
Speaker 8: can't be locked. It's very easy to see how these

2818
02:33:22,440 --> 02:33:24,000
Speaker 8: two things lind up. Yeah, and as a guy said,

2819
02:33:24,040 --> 02:33:26,800
Speaker 8: like people. They have always been able to use their discretion.

2820
02:33:26,920 --> 02:33:28,600
Speaker 8: This is just guidance on how they should use it,

2821
02:33:28,640 --> 02:33:31,320
Speaker 8: but they have been using it for some time. The

2822
02:33:31,360 --> 02:33:36,000
Speaker 8: administration has also moved the goalpost for naturalization, so naturalization

2823
02:33:36,160 --> 02:33:38,959
Speaker 8: is becoming a citizen of the United States. Right, there

2824
02:33:39,080 --> 02:33:42,240
Speaker 8: is a requirement that people who naturalize as citizens have

2825
02:33:42,520 --> 02:33:46,360
Speaker 8: quote good moral character. Previously, the way they did this

2826
02:33:46,640 --> 02:33:50,480
Speaker 8: was there were bars for certain crimes, right murdered genocide,

2827
02:33:51,120 --> 02:33:53,600
Speaker 8: something called aggravated felony, which is something that only exists

2828
02:33:53,600 --> 02:33:56,880
Speaker 8: in immigration law. Going forward, their changing to I guess

2829
02:33:56,920 --> 02:33:59,400
Speaker 8: a more holistic idea of what a good moral character

2830
02:33:59,520 --> 02:34:03,080
Speaker 8: might be. I'm going to quote again. Going forward, USCIS

2831
02:34:03,200 --> 02:34:06,360
Speaker 8: officers must account for an alien's positive attributes and not

2832
02:34:06,560 --> 02:34:10,520
Speaker 8: simply the absence of misconduct in evaluating whether or not

2833
02:34:10,760 --> 02:34:13,920
Speaker 8: an alien has met the requirement for establishing GMC. That's

2834
02:34:13,920 --> 02:34:17,160
Speaker 8: a good moral character. The officer must take a holistic

2835
02:34:17,240 --> 02:34:20,760
Speaker 8: approach in evaluating whether or not an alien seeking naturalization

2836
02:34:20,920 --> 02:34:24,680
Speaker 8: has affirmatively established that he or she has met their

2837
02:34:24,720 --> 02:34:27,640
Speaker 8: burden of establishing that they are worthy of assuming the

2838
02:34:27,720 --> 02:34:30,400
Speaker 8: rights and responsibilities of United States citizenship.

2839
02:34:31,920 --> 02:34:35,320
Speaker 4: The worthy what does that mean? You have to prove

2840
02:34:35,440 --> 02:34:37,240
Speaker 4: to an officer that you're a good person.

2841
02:34:37,560 --> 02:34:39,160
Speaker 8: Yeah, how so.

2842
02:34:39,879 --> 02:34:42,560
Speaker 2: Yes, by the officer's definition, I'm assuming.

2843
02:34:42,600 --> 02:34:48,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I mean this is guys for like discretionary enforcement.

2844
02:34:48,480 --> 02:34:50,840
Speaker 4: So I don't like the word holistic here.

2845
02:34:51,600 --> 02:34:55,680
Speaker 8: I don't. Yeah, there is literally asking him to take

2846
02:34:55,680 --> 02:34:57,960
Speaker 8: into account everything they know about this person and then

2847
02:34:58,080 --> 02:35:00,280
Speaker 8: just make a call. Is this someway you want to

2848
02:35:00,280 --> 02:35:01,760
Speaker 8: have as your neighbor, you know? Like, I don't know

2849
02:35:01,879 --> 02:35:04,360
Speaker 8: what the oh, I mean, I can guess how this

2850
02:35:04,480 --> 02:35:08,119
Speaker 8: might manifested. It's worth noting that as DHS goes, USCIS

2851
02:35:08,240 --> 02:35:11,240
Speaker 8: officers tend to be the least right wing right CBP

2852
02:35:11,600 --> 02:35:14,280
Speaker 8: and I so the much higher proportion of people who like,

2853
02:35:14,360 --> 02:35:17,519
Speaker 8: for instance, they had some issues with getting people vaccinated

2854
02:35:17,640 --> 02:35:20,440
Speaker 8: and CBP that kind of stuff right, indicators that people

2855
02:35:20,520 --> 02:35:23,879
Speaker 8: might be sort of down this conspiracy pipeline. We also

2856
02:35:24,040 --> 02:35:28,000
Speaker 8: learned this week that Todd Blanche directed federal cops to

2857
02:35:28,200 --> 02:35:31,640
Speaker 8: arrest Mayor rasp Baraka outside of a detention center in

2858
02:35:31,680 --> 02:35:35,400
Speaker 8: New Jersey in May. We noticed because of body cam footage,

2859
02:35:35,440 --> 02:35:37,240
Speaker 8: we don't have the footage, but the footage is reported

2860
02:35:37,280 --> 02:35:41,240
Speaker 8: on in court documents, and the footage a DHS official says, quote,

2861
02:35:41,640 --> 02:35:44,400
Speaker 8: we are resting the mayor right now, per the Deputy

2862
02:35:44,440 --> 02:35:47,160
Speaker 8: Attorney General of the United States. Anyone that gets in

2863
02:35:47,240 --> 02:35:49,240
Speaker 8: our way, I need you guys, give me a perimeter

2864
02:35:49,360 --> 02:35:51,520
Speaker 8: so I can cuff him. So that the agent talked

2865
02:35:51,560 --> 02:35:53,000
Speaker 8: on the phone and then gave this statement.

2866
02:35:53,080 --> 02:35:53,200
Speaker 4: Right.

2867
02:35:53,320 --> 02:35:56,120
Speaker 8: So it seems that the deputy ag there with the

2868
02:35:56,160 --> 02:35:58,440
Speaker 8: one who gave the order to arrest rasp Baraka right,

2869
02:35:59,480 --> 02:36:03,320
Speaker 8: ice has also arrested a cop. This is our little

2870
02:36:03,360 --> 02:36:03,800
Speaker 8: moment of.

2871
02:36:03,959 --> 02:36:06,440
Speaker 4: Like harp pond cut violence, top pond cut violence.

2872
02:36:06,520 --> 02:36:06,720
Speaker 13: Yeah.

2873
02:36:07,840 --> 02:36:11,240
Speaker 8: John Luke Evans was a reserve officer for the Old

2874
02:36:11,440 --> 02:36:15,120
Speaker 8: Orchard Beach Police Department in Maine. The police chief of

2875
02:36:15,360 --> 02:36:18,840
Speaker 8: Orchard Beach, who's called at least charred, said that the

2876
02:36:18,920 --> 02:36:22,880
Speaker 8: department had used Everify to check if you could work legally, right,

2877
02:36:23,000 --> 02:36:25,680
Speaker 8: which is the thing that you are supposed to do.

2878
02:36:26,320 --> 02:36:29,800
Speaker 8: E Verify. It's a database run by the Department of

2879
02:36:29,840 --> 02:36:33,200
Speaker 8: Homeland Security. I think it's also in combination with another

2880
02:36:33,280 --> 02:36:37,360
Speaker 8: department that allows you to verify if somebody can work

2881
02:36:37,440 --> 02:36:38,640
Speaker 8: legally in the United States.

2882
02:36:38,760 --> 02:36:38,880
Speaker 7: Right.

2883
02:36:39,320 --> 02:36:43,560
Speaker 8: Tritian McLachlin characterized it as reckless, which is weird because

2884
02:36:43,680 --> 02:36:47,240
Speaker 8: dhs who she's speaking on behalf of the other ones

2885
02:36:47,280 --> 02:36:52,000
Speaker 8: who put that information into the database. It's possible that

2886
02:36:52,240 --> 02:36:54,840
Speaker 8: someone entered at something in wrong at some point right,

2887
02:36:55,120 --> 02:36:57,880
Speaker 8: someone put in a wrong number, they switched an O

2888
02:36:58,120 --> 02:37:00,920
Speaker 8: for a zero, or something like that. This came to

2889
02:37:01,080 --> 02:37:05,280
Speaker 8: light because Evans attempted to make a firearm purchase and

2890
02:37:05,480 --> 02:37:08,440
Speaker 8: he filled out his forty four to seventy three and

2891
02:37:08,560 --> 02:37:12,000
Speaker 8: the eighty f then notified ICE that a non citizen

2892
02:37:12,040 --> 02:37:15,080
Speaker 8: who wasn't eligible for firearms ownership had attempted to purchase

2893
02:37:15,120 --> 02:37:19,240
Speaker 8: a firearm, and that was how ICE came to detain him.

2894
02:37:19,879 --> 02:37:22,520
Speaker 8: He is being allowed to leave the USA voluntarily. He's

2895
02:37:22,640 --> 02:37:25,480
Speaker 8: not being deported. He's not being charged with attempting to

2896
02:37:25,520 --> 02:37:27,440
Speaker 8: make the firearm purchase, which he could be charged with,

2897
02:37:28,320 --> 02:37:31,760
Speaker 8: and the city of Orchard Beach is going pretty hard

2898
02:37:32,080 --> 02:37:35,039
Speaker 8: in his defense. They've released some elements of a personnel file,

2899
02:37:35,080 --> 02:37:37,560
Speaker 8: but none of them that pertained to his immigration status.

2900
02:37:38,200 --> 02:37:40,600
Speaker 8: They're sticking by their claim that they believe he was

2901
02:37:40,800 --> 02:37:44,400
Speaker 8: eligible to work in the USA. ICE are claiming, I

2902
02:37:44,440 --> 02:37:47,280
Speaker 8: guess DHS now are claiming that his visa expired in

2903
02:37:47,360 --> 02:37:52,360
Speaker 8: twenty twenty three, which was years before he began working

2904
02:37:52,440 --> 02:37:55,640
Speaker 8: at the police Department. He was a seasonal reserve officer

2905
02:37:56,120 --> 02:37:59,000
Speaker 8: and he had been working since earlier this year.

2906
02:38:00,000 --> 02:38:01,720
Speaker 4: Before we go on break, I want to do a

2907
02:38:01,840 --> 02:38:05,600
Speaker 4: quick update on the Texas Democrats who fled the state

2908
02:38:05,800 --> 02:38:11,520
Speaker 4: to delay or prevent the gerrymandering. And after their two

2909
02:38:11,600 --> 02:38:15,400
Speaker 4: week walkout, the Texas House has now reached quorum once

2910
02:38:15,480 --> 02:38:19,039
Speaker 4: again and a vote on the new redistricting map, which

2911
02:38:19,080 --> 02:38:23,959
Speaker 4: would add five Republican congressional seats, is slated for Wednesday,

2912
02:38:24,480 --> 02:38:27,439
Speaker 4: August twentieth, which is the day that we are recording.

2913
02:38:28,040 --> 02:38:30,920
Speaker 4: After Democrats returned to the Capitol from their walkout, they

2914
02:38:31,000 --> 02:38:33,320
Speaker 4: were subjected to twenty four to seven surveillance by the

2915
02:38:33,400 --> 02:38:36,800
Speaker 4: Texas Department of Public Safety, and in order to leave

2916
02:38:36,840 --> 02:38:39,680
Speaker 4: the House chamber, they had to sign what the Democrats

2917
02:38:39,720 --> 02:38:44,000
Speaker 4: are calling quote unquote permission slips, agreeing to surveillance in

2918
02:38:44,120 --> 02:38:45,600
Speaker 4: their just everyday life.

2919
02:38:45,959 --> 02:38:48,760
Speaker 3: Is that why I think it was a collier slept

2920
02:38:48,800 --> 02:38:49,160
Speaker 3: at her.

2921
02:38:49,240 --> 02:38:53,360
Speaker 4: Desk one person's I think a state senator refused to

2922
02:38:53,480 --> 02:38:57,400
Speaker 4: sign the slip and stayed in the Capitol overnight. There enough,

2923
02:38:58,040 --> 02:39:02,640
Speaker 4: the Texas House Minority Leader Jeen Wu made a statement saying, quote,

2924
02:39:03,000 --> 02:39:07,199
Speaker 4: we killed the corrupt special session was stood unprecedented surveillance

2925
02:39:07,200 --> 02:39:11,039
Speaker 4: and intimidation, and rallied Democrats nationwide to join this extential

2926
02:39:11,080 --> 02:39:15,800
Speaker 4: fight for fair representation, reshaping the entire twenty twenty sixth landscape. Unquote.

2927
02:39:16,360 --> 02:39:20,039
Speaker 4: There's a very celebratory tone here, which is slightly odd

2928
02:39:20,080 --> 02:39:23,200
Speaker 4: to me because this vote is still probably going through.

2929
02:39:23,640 --> 02:39:24,720
Speaker 8: Yeah, they kind of lose.

2930
02:39:25,200 --> 02:39:26,440
Speaker 4: This is going to get voted in.

2931
02:39:26,600 --> 02:39:26,800
Speaker 10: Yeah.

2932
02:39:26,840 --> 02:39:29,400
Speaker 4: Now, Wu has said that the Democrats are going to

2933
02:39:29,520 --> 02:39:33,520
Speaker 4: challenge the redistricting maps in court even if they are

2934
02:39:33,560 --> 02:39:37,120
Speaker 4: able to pass through this House vote, and as we know,

2935
02:39:37,480 --> 02:39:40,440
Speaker 4: the courts are the last bastion for democracy and will

2936
02:39:40,600 --> 02:39:45,720
Speaker 4: save us all. We suspected that this whole walkout is

2937
02:39:45,800 --> 02:39:48,720
Speaker 4: more performative than anything else and would not actually lead

2938
02:39:48,800 --> 02:39:53,240
Speaker 4: to than killing this map, and instead of remaining out

2939
02:39:53,240 --> 02:39:57,120
Speaker 4: of the state longer for an undeterminate amount of time,

2940
02:39:57,280 --> 02:40:01,040
Speaker 4: possibly until November, they have ret turned and quorum is

2941
02:40:01,120 --> 02:40:01,600
Speaker 4: in the chamber.

2942
02:40:01,720 --> 02:40:05,800
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's it's like it's not nothing, but it's

2943
02:40:05,920 --> 02:40:08,560
Speaker 2: like the next just it's one step up from nothing.

2944
02:40:08,920 --> 02:40:10,720
Speaker 4: It's the most democrat thing to do.

2945
02:40:10,959 --> 02:40:13,880
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, but why why only do half of what

2946
02:40:14,080 --> 02:40:14,760
Speaker 3: was necessary?

2947
02:40:15,240 --> 02:40:19,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, Sophie, you you're asking this question because you didn't

2948
02:40:20,000 --> 02:40:21,080
Speaker 2: grow up in Texas.

2949
02:40:21,760 --> 02:40:25,240
Speaker 3: I went to the Democratic National Convention. I understand the

2950
02:40:25,320 --> 02:40:25,960
Speaker 3: half effort.

2951
02:40:26,160 --> 02:40:27,080
Speaker 8: Here's the reality.

2952
02:40:27,480 --> 02:40:32,120
Speaker 2: Texas Democratic Party exists to disappoint you. That's why, that's

2953
02:40:32,160 --> 02:40:33,240
Speaker 2: why all this is happening.

2954
02:40:34,440 --> 02:40:38,240
Speaker 3: I just feel like the entire Texas Democratic Party is

2955
02:40:38,400 --> 02:40:42,480
Speaker 3: just like a Beto O'Rourke, like the not not literally,

2956
02:40:42,560 --> 02:40:44,400
Speaker 3: but the concept of Beto o'rour.

2957
02:40:45,000 --> 02:40:47,640
Speaker 8: Yeah, not wrong, Yeah, it's all.

2958
02:40:47,840 --> 02:40:48,440
Speaker 10: It's all there.

2959
02:40:48,959 --> 02:40:51,520
Speaker 2: Never never put your faith in Texas and any part

2960
02:40:51,560 --> 02:40:54,560
Speaker 2: of Texas, and you you'll be disappointed less. I've been

2961
02:40:54,600 --> 02:40:56,119
Speaker 2: telling people this for a long time.

2962
02:40:56,720 --> 02:40:58,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like the second thing you told me.

2963
02:40:59,280 --> 02:40:59,800
Speaker 11: Every year.

2964
02:41:00,600 --> 02:41:03,640
Speaker 2: Democrats in other parts of the country every couple of

2965
02:41:03,720 --> 02:41:06,840
Speaker 2: years get like excited. It's the Charlie Brown system where

2966
02:41:06,840 --> 02:41:08,840
Speaker 2: they're like, oh my god, Texas might be about to

2967
02:41:08,879 --> 02:41:12,120
Speaker 2: flip or something otherwise, good Ted Ted Cruz is going

2968
02:41:12,200 --> 02:41:14,160
Speaker 2: to get forced out. We're finally going to have something

2969
02:41:14,240 --> 02:41:17,480
Speaker 2: good happen in Texas politics. And every time, every time

2970
02:41:17,560 --> 02:41:18,840
Speaker 2: that football gets pulled away.

2971
02:41:19,879 --> 02:41:20,800
Speaker 6: Yeah, so it.

2972
02:41:21,360 --> 02:41:26,119
Speaker 4: Feels not great that the minority leaders kind of patting

2973
02:41:26,200 --> 02:41:30,080
Speaker 4: themselves on the back for taking basically a two week

2974
02:41:30,200 --> 02:41:34,760
Speaker 4: vacation to Illinoising California and then returning and having this

2975
02:41:34,959 --> 02:41:38,840
Speaker 4: go through. So I don't know, we'll see this develops.

2976
02:41:38,879 --> 02:41:42,440
Speaker 4: The California is promising to do their own redistricting to

2977
02:41:42,840 --> 02:41:47,199
Speaker 4: equal out the amount of like map changes, both adding

2978
02:41:47,320 --> 02:41:49,440
Speaker 4: five more seats for the respective parties.

2979
02:41:50,920 --> 02:41:51,600
Speaker 3: It's annoying.

2980
02:41:52,080 --> 02:41:52,920
Speaker 4: It's just annoying.

2981
02:41:53,120 --> 02:41:57,400
Speaker 8: It's just annoying, like a nice piece of performance. So

2982
02:41:57,440 --> 02:42:00,720
Speaker 8: I guess you know what else is annoying things?

2983
02:42:01,080 --> 02:42:03,039
Speaker 4: I don't think they're annoying at all. I value each

2984
02:42:03,080 --> 02:42:04,320
Speaker 4: and every advertiser.

2985
02:42:04,680 --> 02:42:07,560
Speaker 8: Garrison actually personally vets all of our advertisers so you

2986
02:42:07,600 --> 02:42:08,520
Speaker 8: can reach out to them.

2987
02:42:14,800 --> 02:42:17,560
Speaker 2: No, no, no, I I agree this is canon. Now,

2988
02:42:18,480 --> 02:42:21,880
Speaker 2: if you're ever unhappy with an advertiser, find Garrison's personal

2989
02:42:21,959 --> 02:42:23,680
Speaker 2: phone number and hit him up.

2990
02:42:24,000 --> 02:42:29,520
Speaker 4: No no, no, no, oh God, time to go into

2991
02:42:29,560 --> 02:42:30,360
Speaker 4: blocking spree.

2992
02:42:41,680 --> 02:42:42,800
Speaker 6: All right, we are back.

2993
02:42:43,879 --> 02:42:45,840
Speaker 4: Putin, I guess is a guy.

2994
02:42:47,160 --> 02:42:49,760
Speaker 3: That's actually how I would describe the meeting between a

2995
02:42:50,120 --> 02:42:52,240
Speaker 3: Trump and Putin and Alaska Putin.

2996
02:42:52,400 --> 02:42:56,520
Speaker 4: I guess, yeah, that's pretty much how it went. They had,

2997
02:42:56,640 --> 02:42:57,560
Speaker 4: they had a little meeting.

2998
02:42:58,040 --> 02:43:01,280
Speaker 3: There are some insane, cannspiracy theories that he sent a

2999
02:43:01,320 --> 02:43:01,880
Speaker 3: body double.

3000
02:43:02,040 --> 02:43:04,920
Speaker 4: Oh wow, yeah, yeah, it's one of my favorite things.

3001
02:43:05,040 --> 02:43:09,960
Speaker 4: There's always insane conspiracy theories supported from BBC News actually,

3002
02:43:10,120 --> 02:43:14,040
Speaker 4: which I find funny. Yeah, I'm glad that BBC's is

3003
02:43:14,120 --> 02:43:17,119
Speaker 4: on the is on the pulse of theories spreading online.

3004
02:43:17,720 --> 02:43:18,560
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, no.

3005
02:43:18,800 --> 02:43:21,880
Speaker 2: And and people are just now figuring out again that

3006
02:43:22,080 --> 02:43:26,040
Speaker 2: whenever world leaders travel to foreign countries for summits at

3007
02:43:26,080 --> 02:43:29,039
Speaker 2: this level, they take their poop back with them. And yeah,

3008
02:43:29,080 --> 02:43:31,000
Speaker 2: I saw an article being like, is it true, did

3009
02:43:31,080 --> 02:43:33,120
Speaker 2: Putin really take his poop back? And yes, they all

3010
02:43:33,200 --> 02:43:35,600
Speaker 2: do because they don't want it to get analyzed to

3011
02:43:35,680 --> 02:43:38,280
Speaker 2: find evidence of health issues. Like the President has his

3012
02:43:38,360 --> 02:43:41,120
Speaker 2: poop taken home every time he goes overseas. This is

3013
02:43:41,200 --> 02:43:42,080
Speaker 2: just the way things are.

3014
02:43:43,000 --> 02:43:46,080
Speaker 4: Frankly. I think if we're able to get the Putin poop,

3015
02:43:46,200 --> 02:43:48,280
Speaker 4: you can make a clone of Putin and then that

3016
02:43:48,400 --> 02:43:55,000
Speaker 4: could be the body show we use. Yeah yeah, stuff

3017
02:43:55,040 --> 02:43:59,519
Speaker 4: that like the fifties of CIA still existed.

3018
02:43:59,080 --> 02:44:02,200
Speaker 8: As they still use. It'd be a lot more fun. Yeah,

3019
02:44:02,760 --> 02:44:05,359
Speaker 8: we would be doing would hoover.

3020
02:44:06,800 --> 02:44:09,520
Speaker 4: Really unethical human cloning project where you had this like

3021
02:44:09,640 --> 02:44:14,400
Speaker 4: shambling like undead corpse of that we can problem Christ.

3022
02:44:14,720 --> 02:44:18,119
Speaker 4: But that's basically how the meeting went. Sorry for derailing

3023
02:44:18,440 --> 02:44:21,560
Speaker 4: my bad, no, because the meeting is kind of a

3024
02:44:21,600 --> 02:44:25,320
Speaker 4: nothing burger. At this point. There was reports that Putin

3025
02:44:25,360 --> 02:44:28,240
Speaker 4: basically ranted to Trump about how Ukraine's always has been

3026
02:44:28,280 --> 02:44:31,879
Speaker 4: a part of Russia, and the meeting didn't really go anywhere.

3027
02:44:31,959 --> 02:44:34,600
Speaker 4: Putin ignored a question on if he would quote stop

3028
02:44:34,720 --> 02:44:39,000
Speaker 4: killing civilians. So yeah, that's basically how the whole how

3029
02:44:39,040 --> 02:44:42,480
Speaker 4: the whole debacle went. And I think it's really indicative

3030
02:44:43,200 --> 02:44:46,640
Speaker 4: that like a day or two after this happened, Trump

3031
02:44:46,720 --> 02:44:49,600
Speaker 4: had the Zelensky meeting two point zero in the White House,

3032
02:44:49,680 --> 02:44:53,640
Speaker 4: which went much better than the previous Zelinsky meeting, and

3033
02:44:53,680 --> 02:44:56,880
Speaker 4: Trump was a lot more friendly with Silinskily this time around.

3034
02:44:57,240 --> 02:45:00,640
Speaker 2: Apparently Zelensky has been going around other European leaders getting

3035
02:45:00,640 --> 02:45:02,360
Speaker 2: advice on how to like talk with it Trump.

3036
02:45:02,640 --> 02:45:05,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, he gave him, gave him a letter which which

3037
02:45:05,200 --> 02:45:09,560
Speaker 4: Trump Trump really appreciates and likes. S he uh started

3038
02:45:09,640 --> 02:45:12,760
Speaker 4: by thanking, uh, thanking the first Lady for a letter

3039
02:45:12,840 --> 02:45:15,960
Speaker 4: as well. So there's always like little polite gestures that

3040
02:45:16,040 --> 02:45:17,360
Speaker 4: Trump really enjoys.

3041
02:45:17,879 --> 02:45:20,320
Speaker 8: Yeah, he likes to be like honored and venerated.

3042
02:45:20,800 --> 02:45:24,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, so Zelenski indulged in that war of of a

3043
02:45:24,560 --> 02:45:27,760
Speaker 4: fairly a fairly spiffy all black suits. I liked it.

3044
02:45:28,080 --> 02:45:30,520
Speaker 4: It's a good it was a good suit. So it's

3045
02:45:30,680 --> 02:45:32,400
Speaker 4: but it is. It is very indicative if you look

3046
02:45:32,400 --> 02:45:34,760
Speaker 4: at like how the last Selenski meeting went, and then

3047
02:45:34,840 --> 02:45:37,760
Speaker 4: after Trump was around Putin for like a few hours.

3048
02:45:38,320 --> 02:45:42,000
Speaker 4: How how how Trump's mood was noticeably different around Zelensky

3049
02:45:42,320 --> 02:45:45,520
Speaker 4: this time around. So we'll see. I don't think we're

3050
02:45:45,560 --> 02:45:49,160
Speaker 4: gonna have any conclusion to the conflict in Ukraine anytime

3051
02:45:49,240 --> 02:45:52,360
Speaker 4: soon based on how these two meetings went. There was

3052
02:45:52,400 --> 02:45:54,120
Speaker 4: there was reporting that they were trying to set up

3053
02:45:54,120 --> 02:45:57,240
Speaker 4: a meeting between Putin and Selensky, though that has since

3054
02:45:57,320 --> 02:46:01,440
Speaker 4: been denied. It sits this like back and forth like

3055
02:46:01,680 --> 02:46:03,920
Speaker 4: it has been the past, like two four years.

3056
02:46:04,040 --> 02:46:05,800
Speaker 2: But Trump is going to bring an end to the war.

3057
02:46:05,920 --> 02:46:08,320
Speaker 2: He's the peace president, kind of get a Nobel prize.

3058
02:46:08,600 --> 02:46:11,879
Speaker 4: Yeah, did you know that Trump's ended six wars? Six seven,

3059
02:46:12,000 --> 02:46:13,240
Speaker 4: six or seven? Wow?

3060
02:46:13,720 --> 02:46:14,000
Speaker 17: Wow?

3061
02:46:16,000 --> 02:46:17,280
Speaker 6: It's I love it.

3062
02:46:17,360 --> 02:46:19,080
Speaker 2: I love it when you can't keep track of how

3063
02:46:19,120 --> 02:46:20,120
Speaker 2: many wars you ended.

3064
02:46:22,680 --> 02:46:25,080
Speaker 4: I got one other story I would like to discuss.

3065
02:46:25,200 --> 02:46:27,240
Speaker 4: I'm sure James will have some comments sense as well

3066
02:46:27,840 --> 02:46:32,920
Speaker 4: on a series of unfortunate ICE actions, including the first

3067
02:46:32,959 --> 02:46:36,160
Speaker 4: instant that I'm aware of, where federal agents have shot

3068
02:46:36,200 --> 02:46:40,480
Speaker 4: their firearms during an enforcement operation, at least as of

3069
02:46:40,720 --> 02:46:44,920
Speaker 4: like the Trump administration two point zero. On Saturday morning,

3070
02:46:45,160 --> 02:46:48,959
Speaker 4: August sixteenth, in San Bernardino, a family is pulled over

3071
02:46:49,120 --> 02:46:52,160
Speaker 4: by massed federal agents in what DHS has since claimed

3072
02:46:52,280 --> 02:46:56,760
Speaker 4: was a quote unquote targeted enforcement operation. As Customs and

3073
02:46:56,840 --> 02:46:59,520
Speaker 4: Border Protection approached the vehicle, the family inside stread of

3074
02:46:59,600 --> 02:47:03,800
Speaker 4: recording on their cell phones and asked for identification. When

3075
02:47:03,800 --> 02:47:06,200
Speaker 4: the family refused to roll down the windows of the car,

3076
02:47:06,360 --> 02:47:09,080
Speaker 4: federal agents smashed windows on both sides of the vehicle

3077
02:47:09,200 --> 02:47:12,320
Speaker 4: and reached inside. At this point, the driver pulled the

3078
02:47:12,400 --> 02:47:15,720
Speaker 4: car forward, and federal agents shot at the vehicle three

3079
02:47:15,879 --> 02:47:20,160
Speaker 4: times before the car sped away. I'll play the video

3080
02:47:20,280 --> 02:47:21,440
Speaker 4: here for posterity.

3081
02:47:22,000 --> 02:47:24,880
Speaker 8: Yeah, do you want what do you want?

3082
02:47:25,000 --> 02:47:47,800
Speaker 4: Identification? So those three pops at the end were the

3083
02:47:48,000 --> 02:47:51,600
Speaker 4: three gunshots. Yeah, this is a wild one, the driver

3084
02:47:51,840 --> 02:47:55,960
Speaker 4: told NBC Los Angeles, quote I had to protect my

3085
02:47:56,120 --> 02:47:58,520
Speaker 4: life and my family en quote.

3086
02:47:58,879 --> 02:48:02,760
Speaker 8: Yeah, it's worth and guess these agents like them more

3087
02:48:02,879 --> 02:48:03,760
Speaker 8: uniformed than some.

3088
02:48:04,280 --> 02:48:07,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, they have badges visible on plate carriers.

3089
02:48:08,360 --> 02:48:08,560
Speaker 10: Yeah.

3090
02:48:08,760 --> 02:48:12,840
Speaker 4: They did not establish much communication between themselves and the

3091
02:48:12,959 --> 02:48:15,680
Speaker 4: family as they approached the vehicle. There's a lot of

3092
02:48:15,720 --> 02:48:16,920
Speaker 4: like yelling back and forth.

3093
02:48:17,640 --> 02:48:19,520
Speaker 8: Yeah. You can hear the man telling his son they

3094
02:48:19,560 --> 02:48:20,600
Speaker 8: don't open it. Yeah.

3095
02:48:20,680 --> 02:48:22,600
Speaker 4: The father's telling his kids in the car not to

3096
02:48:22,800 --> 02:48:24,840
Speaker 4: roll down the windows, not open the doors as the

3097
02:48:24,920 --> 02:48:27,640
Speaker 4: federal agents asked for the car to be opened, and

3098
02:48:27,720 --> 02:48:29,039
Speaker 4: then they initiate force.

3099
02:48:29,240 --> 02:48:29,440
Speaker 10: Yeah.

3100
02:48:29,959 --> 02:48:32,640
Speaker 4: The man here has lived in the US for twenty

3101
02:48:32,720 --> 02:48:35,600
Speaker 4: three years and does not have legal status as to

3102
02:48:35,760 --> 02:48:39,000
Speaker 4: adult sons who are in the vehicle are both US citizens,

3103
02:48:39,120 --> 02:48:42,320
Speaker 4: according to Javier or Hernandez, the executive director of the

3104
02:48:42,400 --> 02:48:45,960
Speaker 4: Inland Coalition for Immigrant Justice, who has spoken about this

3105
02:48:46,080 --> 02:48:50,840
Speaker 4: incident on behalf of the family to local press. DHS

3106
02:48:51,120 --> 02:48:54,160
Speaker 4: gave a statement to NBC Los Angeles. Quote, in the

3107
02:48:54,240 --> 02:48:57,480
Speaker 4: course of the incident, the suspect drove his car at

3108
02:48:57,760 --> 02:49:01,600
Speaker 4: the officers and struck two Customs of Voter Protection officers

3109
02:49:01,680 --> 02:49:05,879
Speaker 4: with his vehicle on quote, saying that because the driver

3110
02:49:06,040 --> 02:49:10,119
Speaker 4: tried to quote unquote run down the agent's a CPB

3111
02:49:10,320 --> 02:49:14,560
Speaker 4: officer was forced to quote discharge his firearm in self defense.

3112
02:49:14,920 --> 02:49:17,840
Speaker 4: Unquote Yeah, So that is the justification that they are using,

3113
02:49:18,360 --> 02:49:21,480
Speaker 4: is that this vehicle was moving in the direction of

3114
02:49:21,600 --> 02:49:25,119
Speaker 4: officers and officers acted in self defense by shooting at

3115
02:49:25,240 --> 02:49:25,560
Speaker 4: the car.

3116
02:49:26,200 --> 02:49:28,520
Speaker 8: That doesn't seem to line up with the video that

3117
02:49:28,600 --> 02:49:29,080
Speaker 8: we just saw.

3118
02:49:29,400 --> 02:49:33,000
Speaker 4: No, the cell phone footage from inside does not show

3119
02:49:33,160 --> 02:49:36,640
Speaker 4: officers being hit by the vehicle. It could be the

3120
02:49:36,800 --> 02:49:39,120
Speaker 4: case that you can see that one of the officers

3121
02:49:39,160 --> 02:49:41,400
Speaker 4: reaching into the car. You can see if the car

3122
02:49:41,560 --> 02:49:46,120
Speaker 4: was pulling away, his arm may have the door. Like

3123
02:49:46,600 --> 02:49:49,200
Speaker 4: the officers are standing next to the car in the video,

3124
02:49:49,240 --> 02:49:51,600
Speaker 4: it's not clear that there's any officers placed in front

3125
02:49:51,640 --> 02:49:52,240
Speaker 4: of the vehicle.

3126
02:49:52,400 --> 02:49:54,880
Speaker 8: So yeah, his foot could have got run over. Maybe

3127
02:49:54,959 --> 02:49:57,879
Speaker 8: if he's like leaning standing there close to the car.

3128
02:49:58,280 --> 02:50:01,640
Speaker 4: The car may have bumped office. It does not appear

3129
02:50:01,720 --> 02:50:03,640
Speaker 4: like this man I was trying to quote unquote run

3130
02:50:03,760 --> 02:50:05,000
Speaker 4: over the police.

3131
02:50:05,240 --> 02:50:07,640
Speaker 8: In fact, he was driving away from them. Yes.

3132
02:50:08,720 --> 02:50:11,560
Speaker 4: The family says that federal agents refused to identify themselves

3133
02:50:11,720 --> 02:50:14,640
Speaker 4: and did not provide a judicial warrant, that DHS has

3134
02:50:14,680 --> 02:50:19,080
Speaker 4: refused to answer whether agents had warrants, and after the shooting,

3135
02:50:19,240 --> 02:50:21,800
Speaker 4: the driver called the San Bernardino Police Department to report

3136
02:50:21,879 --> 02:50:24,959
Speaker 4: that massman pulled his car over, broke windows, and shot

3137
02:50:24,959 --> 02:50:27,200
Speaker 4: at him and his family. Police came to his house

3138
02:50:27,240 --> 02:50:28,880
Speaker 4: and spoke with the driver, but did not arrest the

3139
02:50:28,959 --> 02:50:32,080
Speaker 4: man because California police cannot legally assist federal agents with

3140
02:50:32,160 --> 02:50:35,280
Speaker 4: immigration enforcement. According to a statement from the police department,

3141
02:50:36,400 --> 02:50:40,040
Speaker 4: DHS made a statement criticizing the police for not taking

3142
02:50:40,160 --> 02:50:44,000
Speaker 4: the driver into custody. Quote. This reckless decision came despite

3143
02:50:44,040 --> 02:50:47,640
Speaker 4: the subjects outright refusal to comply, and his wounding of

3144
02:50:47,760 --> 02:50:52,240
Speaker 4: two federal officers has yet another tragic example of California's

3145
02:50:52,280 --> 02:50:57,680
Speaker 4: pro sanctuary policies that shield criminals instead of protecting communities. Unquote,

3146
02:50:58,120 --> 02:51:02,680
Speaker 4: this is what we're calling wounding. Yeah, The severity of

3147
02:51:02,800 --> 02:51:07,920
Speaker 4: the two officers alleged woundings has not been specified. Police

3148
02:51:07,959 --> 02:51:10,600
Speaker 4: later returned to the home along with ice and Homeland

3149
02:51:10,640 --> 02:51:13,840
Speaker 4: security investigations, but the family did not let them enter

3150
02:51:13,959 --> 02:51:16,480
Speaker 4: as they did not have a warrant, though police made

3151
02:51:16,600 --> 02:51:20,520
Speaker 4: one non immigration related arrest outside of the home as

3152
02:51:20,600 --> 02:51:24,320
Speaker 4: community members rallied together in support of the family. As

3153
02:51:24,400 --> 02:51:26,920
Speaker 4: of two days ago, the DHS has said that quote

3154
02:51:27,240 --> 02:51:29,360
Speaker 4: the suspect remains at large.

3155
02:51:30,360 --> 02:51:34,640
Speaker 8: JESU Christ, this is a needless escalation that put people

3156
02:51:34,680 --> 02:51:37,200
Speaker 8: in danger, Like, yeah, what.

3157
02:51:37,280 --> 02:51:40,360
Speaker 2: Else is there to say though, Like, it's bullshit. This

3158
02:51:40,560 --> 02:51:43,160
Speaker 2: is not an excuse to discharge a weapon. This isn't

3159
02:51:43,200 --> 02:51:46,840
Speaker 2: count as wounding. These people should never been pulled over

3160
02:51:46,879 --> 02:51:50,680
Speaker 2: in the first place. But you know what we are

3161
02:51:50,720 --> 02:51:53,440
Speaker 2: where we are, this is the way ice works.

3162
02:51:54,160 --> 02:51:56,800
Speaker 8: Yeah, then this will probably happen again. I guess, like,

3163
02:51:57,080 --> 02:52:01,040
Speaker 8: I'm mildly surprised if sam Benadina police did not detain

3164
02:52:01,240 --> 02:52:04,000
Speaker 8: the man on suspicion of assaulting a federal agent, which

3165
02:52:04,040 --> 02:52:06,680
Speaker 8: is something that they could detain him for. Right it's

3166
02:52:06,720 --> 02:52:11,440
Speaker 8: not immigration crime, Yeah, and that is an extremely broad

3167
02:52:11,560 --> 02:52:14,160
Speaker 8: defense and one doesn't have to know the person's a

3168
02:52:14,200 --> 02:52:15,439
Speaker 8: federal agent, for example.

3169
02:52:16,480 --> 02:52:20,560
Speaker 4: So I guess like, raere, We'll see how this develops. Yeah,

3170
02:52:20,720 --> 02:52:23,240
Speaker 4: it's still unclear what's going to happen to this man. Yeah,

3171
02:52:23,280 --> 02:52:26,240
Speaker 4: I'll check for an update next week. A few days before,

3172
02:52:26,400 --> 02:52:30,520
Speaker 4: on Thursday, August fourteenth, a man fleeing an ice rate

3173
02:52:30,560 --> 02:52:33,480
Speaker 4: at a home depot in Monrovia, California, was hit and

3174
02:52:33,640 --> 02:52:37,760
Speaker 4: killed while attempting to cross the two to ten freeway

3175
02:52:38,160 --> 02:52:42,280
Speaker 4: on foot. Local activists say that during the same raid,

3176
02:52:42,440 --> 02:52:45,360
Speaker 4: ice hit someone in the leg with one of their vehicles,

3177
02:52:45,959 --> 02:52:48,280
Speaker 4: and that person was taken into custody.

3178
02:52:49,240 --> 02:52:53,240
Speaker 8: This is tragic, right, Yeah, the reckless use of vehicles

3179
02:52:53,720 --> 02:52:58,600
Speaker 8: in LA was remarkable, and I've covered a good deal

3180
02:52:58,640 --> 02:53:03,040
Speaker 8: of protests and a good deal of places. The use

3181
02:53:03,120 --> 02:53:09,160
Speaker 8: of vehicles in an extremely dangerous way by police was notable.

3182
02:53:09,200 --> 02:53:11,440
Speaker 8: When I was up there covering the protests, I think

3183
02:53:11,440 --> 02:53:14,199
Speaker 8: it was in June. It was something that in certainly

3184
02:53:14,440 --> 02:53:17,600
Speaker 8: was very concerning to me. So it would not shock

3185
02:53:17,720 --> 02:53:20,720
Speaker 8: me if people had been hit by anic vehicle. But yeah,

3186
02:53:20,760 --> 02:53:23,760
Speaker 8: this is a tragedy. And again, like because the stakes

3187
02:53:23,800 --> 02:53:27,560
Speaker 8: are taking everything in someone's life away from them, we're

3188
02:53:27,640 --> 02:53:29,200
Speaker 8: going to see this happen more often.

3189
02:53:29,320 --> 02:53:32,720
Speaker 4: Right, No, it can cause people to do brash, run

3190
02:53:32,760 --> 02:53:35,320
Speaker 4: safe things. They attempt to cross the busy freeway. Yeah,

3191
02:53:35,360 --> 02:53:38,040
Speaker 4: the two town is a very busy freeway always. Now

3192
02:53:38,080 --> 02:53:39,320
Speaker 4: it's extremely tragic.

3193
02:53:39,920 --> 02:53:44,040
Speaker 8: Yeah, this is yeah, really sad. So Ed Sauce reporting

3194
02:53:44,160 --> 02:53:48,320
Speaker 8: that a student out of California, Benjamin Guerrero Kruth, who

3195
02:53:48,560 --> 02:53:50,400
Speaker 8: had just turned eighteen to begin a senior year of

3196
02:53:50,480 --> 02:53:54,360
Speaker 8: high school, was detained by immigration authorities from walking his dog.

3197
02:53:55,080 --> 02:53:59,840
Speaker 8: One of his former teachers visited him and mentioned that

3198
02:54:00,600 --> 02:54:02,840
Speaker 8: he had overheard. He had told her that he had

3199
02:54:02,920 --> 02:54:05,800
Speaker 8: overheard ICE agent talking about receiving a fifteen hundred dollar

3200
02:54:06,440 --> 02:54:08,120
Speaker 8: bounty for making his arrest.

3201
02:54:09,320 --> 02:54:12,080
Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, like in some promotional videos from DHS and ICE,

3202
02:54:12,120 --> 02:54:15,160
Speaker 4: they've been boasting about bonuses not only for signing on

3203
02:54:15,320 --> 02:54:17,720
Speaker 4: for this recruitment dry that they're doing, but also like

3204
02:54:17,920 --> 02:54:22,480
Speaker 4: cash bonuses for immigrants getting arrested and deported. And there's

3205
02:54:22,520 --> 02:54:26,560
Speaker 4: been multiple clips of agents like talking about this or like,

3206
02:54:26,640 --> 02:54:28,600
Speaker 4: you know, talking about, I wonder how much of a

3207
02:54:28,640 --> 02:54:30,680
Speaker 4: bonus we're going to get for these batchel of arrests.

3208
02:54:31,520 --> 02:54:34,840
Speaker 4: So this is this has been something noticed in multiple states.

3209
02:54:34,879 --> 02:54:37,600
Speaker 4: I've heard of this in Florida, and this sounds like

3210
02:54:37,640 --> 02:54:40,880
Speaker 4: it's in California. You said, yeah, California. Yeah, yeah, So

3211
02:54:41,160 --> 02:54:43,440
Speaker 4: this is this is a pattern, and it's not even

3212
02:54:43,560 --> 02:54:46,240
Speaker 4: very glorified bounty hunting, because it's not really glorified, but

3213
02:54:46,320 --> 02:54:48,760
Speaker 4: it's essentially essentially bounty hunting.

3214
02:54:49,080 --> 02:54:51,480
Speaker 8: Yeah, that might be why we're seeing some of these

3215
02:54:51,600 --> 02:54:55,480
Speaker 8: like insane arrests right of people who would never normally

3216
02:54:55,520 --> 02:54:56,199
Speaker 8: expect to see.

3217
02:54:57,000 --> 02:54:59,240
Speaker 3: We reported the news here, We.

3218
02:54:59,360 --> 02:55:00,240
Speaker 4: Reported the new news.

3219
02:55:01,120 --> 02:55:02,040
Speaker 10: We reported the news.

3220
02:55:08,400 --> 02:55:11,520
Speaker 2: Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week

3221
02:55:11,600 --> 02:55:13,480
Speaker 2: from now until the heat death of the universe.

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02:55:14,280 --> 02:55:16,760
Speaker 3: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

3223
02:55:16,959 --> 02:55:19,959
Speaker 3: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

3224
02:55:20,080 --> 02:55:23,600
Speaker 3: foolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

3225
02:55:23,720 --> 02:55:25,640
Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever.

3226
02:55:25,440 --> 02:55:26,560
Speaker 4: You listen to podcasts.

3227
02:55:27,040 --> 02:55:28,960
Speaker 3: You can now find sources where it Could Happen Here

3228
02:55:29,000 --> 02:55:31,960
Speaker 3: listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.