Speaker 1: Welcome to Rolling Stones five hundred Greatest Songs, a podcast
Speaker 1: based on Rolling Stones hugely popular, influential, and sometimes controversial list.
Speaker 1: I'm Britney Spanos and.
Speaker 2: I'm Rob Sheffield. We're here to shed light on the
Speaker 2: greatest songs ever made and discover what makes them so great.
Speaker 1: So this podcast is based off of the twenty twenty
Speaker 1: one list. There are three versions of the lists that exist.
Speaker 1: There's the two thousand four list, the original one, the
Speaker 1: twenty ten update of the list, and then of course
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty one.
Speaker 3: We redid it completely and revamped it.
Speaker 1: And this podcast is going to have us talking about
Speaker 1: a different song each week that we enjoy talking about,
Speaker 1: and then we're excited to talk about I mean, Rob,
Speaker 1: what do you remember about the two thousand and four list,
Speaker 1: because we are going to be talking a lot about
Speaker 1: the changes between the list as they exist and the
Speaker 1: two kind of canonical lists and what's changed since the
Speaker 1: original one. So what do you remember about the kind
Speaker 1: of process and the voting that happened for two thousand
Speaker 1: and four?
Speaker 2: Well, because the different versions of the list have involved
Speaker 2: hundreds of voters, but different pools of voters each time.
Speaker 2: Shout out to Ark Garfunkel, who voted in every version
Speaker 2: of the list, and Aaron Neville. They are the absolute
Speaker 2: MVPs of all Rolling Stone Greatest Things lists because they
Speaker 2: voted in the different versions of them. But the two
Speaker 2: thousand and four to one it was totally new, and
Speaker 2: there were so many surprises in terms of what came
Speaker 2: out on top. And in twenty twenty it was really
Speaker 2: interesting to see that there was so much change in
Speaker 2: terms of songs that were around all these years, but
Speaker 2: some songs had gotten this whole new afterlife, this whole
Speaker 2: new mystique years after the fact.
Speaker 1: How did you think of voting and is it different
Speaker 1: between how you voted for the two thousand and four
Speaker 1: list in the twenty twenty one list.
Speaker 2: Yes, I voted in the different versions of the poll.
Speaker 2: When I was voting in two thousand and four, I
Speaker 2: was trying to be more sort of well rounded orally,
Speaker 2: and this time I was more Now I'm stuffing the
Speaker 2: ballot box for my personal faves. My number one the
Speaker 2: first time I voted in two thousand and four was
Speaker 2: Common People, the classic nineteen ninety five song by Pulp,
Speaker 2: And this time that was number two on my list. Yeah,
Speaker 2: It was replaced by a Taylor Swift song involving a
Speaker 2: scarf that was number one on my twenty twenty list.
Speaker 2: A lot of the songs were the same on my ballot.
Speaker 2: But it's weird how some songs change for you personally
Speaker 2: over time, that you can spend your whole life listening
Speaker 2: to a song and it's meaning for you changes, it
Speaker 2: grows or shrinks. But very interesting to see that happen
Speaker 2: with so many different people over the years.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I learned so much about music, and
Speaker 1: like I used the albums and the songs list the
Speaker 1: original one sort of as a jumping board for me
Speaker 1: in terms of music history, and so it was really
Speaker 1: fun to vote for the first time in the twenty
Speaker 1: twenty one one.
Speaker 3: But yeah, I feel like I ended up.
Speaker 1: I went back and forth between like, here are songs
Speaker 1: that you know are just like obviously very great, and
Speaker 1: like are the canon or whatever, but also it's like,
Speaker 1: here are songs that I really love and I think
Speaker 1: deserve to be uplifted on the list as well. So
Speaker 1: it mind's very like pop and dance heavy.
Speaker 2: Your list is amazing. What was at the top of
Speaker 2: your list?
Speaker 1: Dancy on my own Robin, I think it is the
Speaker 1: most influential song of the last I guess thirteen years.
Speaker 1: So and then yeah, I think my number two is
Speaker 1: believed by Share again, very influential, and I just want
Speaker 1: to see Share on the list.
Speaker 3: So it's very.
Speaker 1: Important for me to just stuff the ballance and make
Speaker 1: sure that song was high. But yeah, so I feel
Speaker 1: like I ended up going for a lot of pop
Speaker 1: songs because that was so there aren't as many kind
Speaker 1: of like dance pop moments on the original list, and
Speaker 1: I think in terms of the canon, you know, those
Speaker 1: songs are getting more respect as time goes on and
Speaker 1: sort of seen as as properly influential as they deserve
Speaker 1: to be. Absolutely, so, we have a song that we
Speaker 1: really love that.
Speaker 2: This is a song that you know is very near
Speaker 2: and dear to both of our hearts.
Speaker 1: Yeah, very very important to our personal listening habits, and
Speaker 1: just a band that we love so much, sung by
Speaker 1: someone that we.
Speaker 3: Love so much.
Speaker 1: And to kick off the entire podcast, we're going to
Speaker 1: be talking about Dreams by Fleetwood Mac And this song
Speaker 1: was not on the original list. Actually, the song did
Speaker 1: not make the two thousand and four list. It did
Speaker 1: not make the two thousand and ten list, but it
Speaker 1: ranked at number nine on the twenty twenty one list.
Speaker 1: It is the highest placement of a song that was
Speaker 1: not on the original list, and it came in the
Speaker 1: top ten, which is like a pre big debut for
Speaker 1: this song. And it was released in nineteen seventy seven.
Speaker 1: It was on the album Rumors. Of course, this was
Speaker 1: a very dramatic recording process, writing process of an album.
Speaker 1: There were multiple breakups going on. Steven Knicks of Lindsay
Speaker 1: Buckingham were breaking up. John and Christine mcviee were divorcing.
Speaker 1: Mick Fleetwood and his wife were divorcing. Everyone was just said,
Speaker 1: and well, you.
Speaker 2: Know, it's not like Mcfleetwood divorced his wife and then
Speaker 2: started having an affair with Steven that began at the
Speaker 2: Rolling Stone cover shoot. Yeah, for the story on Rumors,
Speaker 2: everything about the Fleetwood Max story, the Fleetwood Mac myth
Speaker 2: everything about it so melodramatic in every detail. And yet
Speaker 2: Dreams is a song that has kind of come to
Speaker 2: symbolize all that drama, all that mythology, and it's wild
Speaker 2: because again we were talking about the afterlife of these songs.
Speaker 2: You know, twenty years ago Dreams did not loom as
Speaker 2: large in the Fleetwood Max story, in the Stevie Nicks story,
Speaker 2: in the whole Rumor's mythology the way it does now.
Speaker 2: Dreams is a song that's been around for almost fifty
Speaker 2: years and yet has never been more popular or iconic
Speaker 2: than it is right now.
Speaker 1: While because the song was so popular when it came
Speaker 1: out too, you know, like it was it's the only
Speaker 1: number one song that Fleetwood Mac had in the US.
Speaker 1: It was a third single off of Rumors. Was just
Speaker 1: a massive, massive moment for the band and really helped
Speaker 1: solidify so much of the success that Rumors had not
Speaker 1: only an nineteen seventy seven but for decades to come.
Speaker 1: I mean, this album was on the album's charts for years, decades,
Speaker 1: Like this is something that's been very consistent in pop music.
Speaker 1: But I feel like Stevie and her music specifically because
Speaker 1: this is the song is written solely by Stevie Nicks,
Speaker 1: has had so many different lives and so many of
Speaker 1: the songs have had different moments. My introduction to Fleetwood
Speaker 1: Mac was Landslide, and that song had such a big
Speaker 1: moment in the late nineties and early two thousands because
Speaker 1: there were so many covers in this is Smashing Pumpkins version,
Speaker 1: The Chicks did a version. Those were huge radio hits,
Speaker 1: and I think for someone growing up at that time,
Speaker 1: that was a huge introduction to Stevie Nicks, that was
Speaker 1: and to Fleetwood Mac generally. So it's kind of crazy
Speaker 1: how many different different cycles that all of her songs
Speaker 1: kind of have and all these moments.
Speaker 2: Totally really amazing, and all the different lives that Stevie
Speaker 2: Nicks has had, all the different lives that Rumors has had.
Speaker 2: It's wild that it's always been a super famous but again,
Speaker 2: it's never been more popular or famous than it is
Speaker 2: right now. And it's really amazing how Rumors just gets
Speaker 2: more iconic, more famous, and more mysterious over the years.
Speaker 2: And Dreams, which you know, like you said before, it
Speaker 2: didn't make the two thousand and four version of the list.
Speaker 2: That wasn't one of the songs that really stood in
Speaker 2: for the whole Rumor's story the way it does now.
Speaker 2: But it's wild to see how it's grown into into
Speaker 2: what it is now.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and great context for when the voting was happening
Speaker 1: and when the like Dreams was having a major resurgence
Speaker 1: and it's funny to think about, like what would happen
Speaker 1: if the list was made this year, or what would
Speaker 1: happen if the list had been redone.
Speaker 3: Like two years before.
Speaker 1: But in twenty twenty, of course, the song blew up
Speaker 1: on TikTok of all places because a usernamed Nate Abudaca
Speaker 1: had done a video where he's skateboarding and drinking ocean
Speaker 1: spray cran raspberry juice and just listening to dreams, which
Speaker 1: is just so soothing, and Stevie did a like Mick
Speaker 1: Fleetwood made a video reenacting it. Even Lindsay Buckingham did
Speaker 1: one on a white Horse.
Speaker 2: Lindsay did one. I was like, okay, this is off
Speaker 2: the rails now, even by rumors standards, this is completely
Speaker 2: mind blowing melodrama. Yeah. And the fact that you know,
Speaker 2: Lindsay was like, sure, I'll do this with this song
Speaker 2: that begins with my ex saying, well, here you go again,
Speaker 2: you want your freedom? A great example of how there's
Speaker 2: no end to the story of dreams. This song just
Speaker 2: keeps mutating and changing over time, and no.
Speaker 1: End to the story of steveing Lindsay to the story
Speaker 1: of Fleetwood Mac It's like one of those bands where
Speaker 1: their lore is constantly evolving in crazy ways so true,
Speaker 1: which is just like how people are reintroduced to them constantly.
Speaker 1: Like thinking about the fact that even Lindsay doing that
Speaker 1: video for the for the Dreams viral moment is so
Speaker 1: insane because he was very dramatically kicked out of the band,
Speaker 1: just like what was it a year or two before
Speaker 1: that had happened, and like him and Stevie have not
Speaker 1: been on the best terms recently and they have had
Speaker 1: these bouts of being on the best terms and it's
Speaker 1: just kind of crazy how that has continued when this
Speaker 1: couple broke up fifty years ago.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, the fact that the last time that those two
Speaker 2: were in the same room together was on stage accepting
Speaker 2: a Humanitarian award as the Music Cares Person of the Year,
Speaker 2: and that they actually that you were actually there for
Speaker 2: witnessing that the.
Speaker 1: Only time I've seen that lineup perform together and then
Speaker 1: it was gone.
Speaker 2: It was last time, last time.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 2: And the fact that any group can break up right yeah,
Speaker 2: for Fluid Back to break up while they're on stage
Speaker 2: accepting a Humanitarian award as the Music Cares People of
Speaker 2: the Year, that is just priceless. That could only happen
Speaker 2: to Fleetwood back right.
Speaker 1: But also in the most kind of like I feel
Speaker 1: like everyone is too old for this thing where it
Speaker 1: was like Lindsay giggling in the background because Stevie was
Speaker 1: doing a speech that was like a little too long,
Speaker 1: which is like he's known Stevie longer than anyone has
Speaker 1: known Stevie, Like you should know.
Speaker 2: I know.
Speaker 3: The woman loves to talk. She loves to give a speech.
Speaker 2: Yes, do not guide a meteor. There's that great footage
Speaker 2: of her giving her acceptance speech at the Rock and
Speaker 2: Roll Hall of Fame. She was inducted as a solo artist,
Speaker 2: and you see the teleprompter saying wrap it up, like
Speaker 2: and she kept talking for eight minutes after that appeared,
Speaker 2: and you.
Speaker 1: Don't tell her to wrap it up. Yes, you just
Speaker 1: gotta let it flow. I think there's one or two
Speaker 1: idea with her that was she. I think I asked
Speaker 1: like two or three questions in the span of forty minutes,
Speaker 1: Like I just kind of I was like, well, we're
Speaker 1: talking about all of this, and I'm not sure how
Speaker 1: we got here.
Speaker 3: And I love it and I appreciate.
Speaker 2: It absolutely absolutely. Nobody gives you more a per cue.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's all great.
Speaker 2: Yes, Yeah, this song is so fascinating because we associate
Speaker 2: Stevie with these sprawling epics. You know, for a lot
Speaker 2: of people, their favorite Stevie song will be something like
Speaker 2: gold Dust Woman or Sarah or Gypsy, these songs that
Speaker 2: you know, tell a long story over a long period
Speaker 2: of time. Dreams is really out of character story for her.
Speaker 2: It's a very short song. It's got you know, like
Speaker 2: verse chorus, verse, chorus, and that's the song. And it's
Speaker 2: unique for Stevie Nicks, just as it's unique in the
Speaker 2: history of pop music.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's very it's very direct in what's saying.
Speaker 2: It is direct.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like she she's very direct in what she's saying.
Speaker 1: It's a very sort of kind of like whimsical pop song.
Speaker 1: I feel like Stevie obviously is so associated with kind
Speaker 1: of this like magical quality, this witchiness and like, but
Speaker 1: I wouldn't call many for songs whimsical in that way.
Speaker 1: I think a lot of the stuff with Rumors is
Speaker 1: that there is so much anger underlying every single line
Speaker 1: on there, and so much anger underlying the way that
Speaker 1: they're all playing on certain parts of things. But the
Speaker 1: album comes across so kind of bright when you listen
Speaker 1: to it, like it is such like this like very
Speaker 1: sort of sunshiny sounding kind of seventies FM pop moment,
Speaker 1: and like it is very fueled by a lot of
Speaker 1: deep rooted anger between every single person. Because the song
Speaker 1: was a response to go your Own Way, which is
Speaker 1: Lindsay's take on the breakup. Stevie really hates that song.
Speaker 1: She hates the packing up, shocking up line. There's a
Speaker 1: lot a lot of anger from that lot. Yeah, but yeah,
Speaker 1: the same thing with like Stevie Solo starf too, Like
Speaker 1: I feel like it's always just been there, Like Edge of
Speaker 1: seventeen is a song that you know would be again
Speaker 1: on the radio School of Rock, you know it's playing
Speaker 1: in there, and Booty Delicious by Dsny's Child, Like you know,
Speaker 1: it's like all these moments. So it's kind of it's
Speaker 1: kind of wild to think about sort of just like
Speaker 1: how so how so much of her music just quickly
Speaker 1: became sort of rock and pop standards for for a
Speaker 1: lot of generations of people. But yeah, I would say
Speaker 1: Silver Springs kind of led into the full deep dive
Speaker 1: of deep dive of rumors and the Stevie and Lindsay
Speaker 1: Lore and Fleetwood Mac and all of that.
Speaker 2: I love that, Yeah, I love it. I was a
Speaker 2: little kid when Rumors came and Dreams was the biggest
Speaker 2: radio hit at first. It was, like you said, though,
Speaker 2: it was the one that hit number one, and it
Speaker 2: sounded so weird on seventies top forty radio. Just everything
Speaker 2: about that song is so weirdly anomalous. That it's so spare,
Speaker 2: that for a lot of it's just bass, drums and voice,
Speaker 2: and that the lyrics are so like you said, direct,
Speaker 2: they're so angry, they're so nasty, the humor is so
Speaker 2: knife twisting, and that it was a song that really
Speaker 2: jumped off the radio and that was the number one hit.
Speaker 2: But for me, Rumors was an album that I was
Speaker 2: always associated with. It was always in people's houses, when
Speaker 2: you went over a friend's house, it was you know,
Speaker 2: every suburban mom was into Rumors and Tapestry.
Speaker 1: It's kind of surreal how that album has aged so
Speaker 1: well and how that album has continued to like, you know,
Speaker 1: I feel like a lot of there was a lot
Speaker 1: of parents who also had Rumors in their in their
Speaker 1: house when I was and like, you know, it's just
Speaker 1: kind of a.
Speaker 3: Thing that is just always there.
Speaker 1: Like it, it feels like it's always been a part of
Speaker 1: pop music. And yeah, I mean even just like how
Speaker 1: different it is to that point that you had mentioned
Speaker 1: about how people think of like, you know, gold Dust
Speaker 1: Woman or those kinds of moments or Rhiannon and things
Speaker 1: like that. It's like such like a a delicate vocal
Speaker 1: performance from Stevie, which I really love. I think so
Speaker 1: much of her vocals and the way that people think
Speaker 1: about them is kind of like that visceral kind of
Speaker 1: rock voice, and you know that's why like Silver Springs
Speaker 1: is having its own resurgence right now, and like thinking
Speaker 1: about how she does her live performances of like gold
Speaker 1: Dust Woman and during her live shows and like her
Speaker 1: solo music and things like that. Yeah, I feel like
Speaker 1: it's such like a delicate and pretty kind of understated
Speaker 1: Stevie moment, which I really love, and kind of that
Speaker 1: it feels like the song feels almost kind of like
Speaker 1: a little bit of like a Stevie meets Christine kind
Speaker 1: of fusion of lyrics with like the kind of melody
Speaker 1: and that kind of pop ness.
Speaker 2: Absolutely vocal is really amazing. I love your point about
Speaker 2: the way she sings the word women is so great.
Speaker 2: There's so much going on, and just the way she
Speaker 2: says those that particular word yes, two syllables yeah.
Speaker 1: Because I was listening to the live at the Forum
Speaker 1: version on the way here, and that is also like
Speaker 1: the way that it becomes such like an angry performance
Speaker 1: of it, like the way that she's like able to
Speaker 1: turn this it's already angry, but like, you know, this
Speaker 1: like very pretty kind of you know, if you're not
Speaker 1: listening close enough to the lyrics, it just sounds like
Speaker 1: this like kind of theial kind of pop moment. And
Speaker 1: then you listen to the live of the Forum version,
Speaker 1: She's pissed.
Speaker 2: Something happened women, Women, It's wild. I mean, you hear
Speaker 2: those songs as a little kid and you think, wow,
Speaker 2: like these grown ups are having a life, you know,
Speaker 2: and it's like, oh, you hear the boy singing background
Speaker 2: in the chorus of dreams Yeah, and he's You hear
Speaker 2: Lindsay's voice very prominently singing the line players only love
Speaker 2: you when they're playing and you listen to go your
Speaker 2: own way, and it's like, oh, Lindsay's telling the story
Speaker 2: with Stevie's voice very prominently singing along, and it's not
Speaker 2: like they're saying nice things about each other. It's not
Speaker 2: like either of them is taking the high road those songs.
Speaker 2: And it's wild to hear that, he said, she said
Speaker 2: dialogue about this breakup happening in real time in these songs.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, all the layers that they add to
Speaker 1: their songs about each other is so crazy, Like when
Speaker 1: you get older and you're like you're like, oh yeah,
Speaker 1: like this like guitar part I mean, just like the
Speaker 1: guitar playing that Lindsay does on Dreams. It's just like
Speaker 1: so perfect and beautiful and adds so much to the song.
Speaker 1: Like thinking about like John McPhee's bass and You Make
Speaker 1: Loving Fun, a song that Christine wrote about looking up
Speaker 1: with the lighting director. That bass is so iconic on
Speaker 1: that song and literally leads you into it. It's so wild.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but that's such a huge part of the mystique
Speaker 2: of Dreams as a song, and rumors and Fleetwood Mac
Speaker 2: in general, that they always added so much beauty to
Speaker 2: each other's songs even they were totally ripping each other
Speaker 2: to shreds. So yeah, You Make Love and Fun. But
Speaker 2: something about this bizarre five way chemistry that they had
Speaker 2: that they always just wanted to make each other songs
Speaker 2: better despite the emotional carnage going on in them. And
Speaker 2: that's definitely happening in Dreams where Lindsay is adding so
Speaker 2: much guitar beauty to this song and helping her shape
Speaker 2: her draft into a song when she knows what she's
Speaker 2: singing about. And that's kind of always the beauty of
Speaker 2: these songs. You know. Stevie's always said that she wants
Speaker 2: to kill Lindsay every single time that they've been on stage,
Speaker 2: and he sings go your Own Way, and she's there
Speaker 2: like playing the tambourine, and yet she sings so beautifully
Speaker 2: on that song. Remember that great scene in the documentary
Speaker 2: on the Dance where Lindsay is hearing Silver Springs and
Speaker 2: he's listening back to it and he hasn't heard it
Speaker 2: in a while, and he's like, Wow, that guitar, I
Speaker 2: remember that guitar. He's talk about how awesome his guitar.
Speaker 2: It's like, dude, you are literally listening to your ex
Speaker 2: sing a song about how her voice will haunt you
Speaker 2: for the rest of your life and about how no
Speaker 2: matter how long you live, you'll never get away from
Speaker 2: her because their voice will always be there. And to me,
Speaker 2: that's not just the essence of Lindsay brilliance, but that's
Speaker 2: really the Fleetwood Mac story in a nutshell, because they're
Speaker 2: adding so much genius to each other's songs despite all
Speaker 2: the pain that they're causing each other in these songs.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that guitar part is very good on.
Speaker 2: Sord It is great to me. One of the fascinating
Speaker 2: things about Dreams is that Stevie Nix's so many classic
Speaker 2: songs that people love to cover, you know, people so
Speaker 2: many people have done, as you said, Landslide, people love
Speaker 2: to sing Gypsy, people love to sing Sarah. It's well
Speaker 2: that nobody really covers Dreams, and when they try to,
Speaker 2: you can hear why. It's a really uncoverable song.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like it's hard to for anyone to kind of,
Speaker 1: I don't know, tackle the like the charm that Stevie
Speaker 1: has in it, Like it's like a fel like a
Speaker 1: song that only she can sing. Yeah, I mean just
Speaker 1: so many of the lyrics like are just unconvincing from
Speaker 1: anyone else, Like, like I don't want to hear about
Speaker 1: anyone else's crystal visions, Like no one else has crystal
Speaker 1: visions the way Stevie has.
Speaker 2: She invented crystalis.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like it's not like I can't I know, there's
Speaker 1: like a I think the Coors did one.
Speaker 2: I think so much of that is what John McVie
Speaker 2: and mcfleetwood are doing that. Yeah, you definitely hear. This
Speaker 2: is why this band is named after the rhythm section,
Speaker 2: and you can definitely hear this rhythm section learned how
Speaker 2: to do this by playing blues and R and B
Speaker 2: because what they're doing with the bass and drums all
Speaker 2: through the song, it's not something that any other rhythm
Speaker 2: section can duplicate. And that's the case with so many
Speaker 2: Fleetwood maxims.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like like if Dreams came out today,
Speaker 1: it would still be a massive hit. Like that's the
Speaker 1: thing too the song is that it is so timeless
Speaker 1: in the way that it sounds like it doesn't sound
Speaker 1: tied to any specific era, Like there are a lot
Speaker 1: of moments on Rumors that sound so distinctly seventies, like
Speaker 1: like oh your own wage just sounds like so distinctly
Speaker 1: seventies to me, and like gold Dust Woman sounds so
Speaker 1: distinctly seventies in that way, but like, yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: there's nothing about Dreams that sounds like it. It could
Speaker 1: have come out like any decade and it still would
Speaker 1: have been I think a massive absolutely yeah.
Speaker 2: Something about the song and it's resurgence in the last
Speaker 2: ten years. I think it has to have something to
Speaker 2: do with One Direction, and especially Fireproof, Yeah, right, which
Speaker 2: is it's not a cover of Dreams, but it's one
Speaker 2: direction definitely doing a song of like let's get that,
Speaker 2: let's get that dreams kind of groove. Yeah, Fireproof. The
Speaker 2: first time you hear it, you're like, wow, I can't
Speaker 2: believe they're doing this, and it's a phenomenal song, but
Speaker 2: it's really funny how they go for this specific kind
Speaker 2: of groove.
Speaker 1: I feel like the Mitski cover of it brings out
Speaker 1: a lot that Fleetwood Matt totally even more so, like
Speaker 1: you kind of get a little bit more of that
Speaker 1: kind of like Stevinus in Mitski's take on Fireproof.
Speaker 2: Which is totally it's so good. I feel like, for
Speaker 2: me and as someone who has loved that song forever,
Speaker 2: I learned so much about Fleetwood Mac and about Dreams
Speaker 2: from both of those versions of Fireproof, Yeah, and that
Speaker 2: there's just so much going on in the music of
Speaker 2: this song, even before you get to Stevie's vocals.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's like almost it's like Fleetwood Mac and
Speaker 1: Stevie Nick specifically, they don't really have to do a
Speaker 1: lot of upkeep on their legacy because people just find
Speaker 1: their way to them.
Speaker 3: Thinking of like the last ten fifteen, I mean, the.
Speaker 1: Last couple of decades of like Fleetwood Mac and the
Speaker 1: way that there's always going to be younger artists who
Speaker 1: are going to want to evoke them and want to
Speaker 1: like try to find elements of Fleetwood Mac in their
Speaker 1: own music and try to find ways that make that connection.
Speaker 1: And it's once their fans kind of hear that it's
Speaker 1: not a hard cell to get further.
Speaker 3: Into Fleetwood Mac. You know.
Speaker 1: It's like I think for especially for younger artists, like
Speaker 1: when One Direction was kind of evoking that, and then
Speaker 1: later with Harry Styles covering the chain and having such
Speaker 1: like a close relationship with Stevie, that's been such a
Speaker 1: big moment for Fleetwood Mac and for Stevie Nicks generally,
Speaker 1: just to kind of have that, you know, even younger
Speaker 1: artists and younger fans kind of find a connection to them.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: There's of course, like Taylor Swift and Carl Ray, Jepson
Speaker 1: and Lord and like all these pop girls who love
Speaker 1: Stevie and revere her so much, Florence and the Machine,
Speaker 1: like all these artists who have found ways to channel
Speaker 1: her specifically and found ways to channel like that Fleetwood
Speaker 1: macnus in their own music without copying them. Like with
Speaker 1: Carl Ray, I hear like a lot more like Christine
Speaker 1: mcviee obviously and what she does. And I think like
Speaker 1: you can kind of hear like these little pockets of
Speaker 1: Fleetwood Mac and all the vocalist and the artists within
Speaker 1: the band kind of coming out in a lot of
Speaker 1: pop music these days, and people wanting to catch that magic,
Speaker 1: and a lot of people are able to do it
Speaker 1: in their own kind of special way.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, it's really amazing how it constantly inspires people, and
Speaker 2: that it's such a timeless story. As you say, it's
Speaker 2: so quintessentially seventies, but it's timeless. It's always so funny
Speaker 2: to think about the fact that, you know, part of
Speaker 2: what draws people and always draws new fans into this
Speaker 2: story is that it's a band of people singing about
Speaker 2: breaking up with each other and connecting with each other
Speaker 2: ilicit like ways, and to have all their emotional mess
Speaker 2: just like out there documenting it together in public. That
Speaker 2: that's something that always draws people in.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love watching people learn it in real time too,
Speaker 1: Like I feel like, especially after Daisy Jones and The
Speaker 1: Six came out, and that show and book are so
Speaker 1: very clearly about Bluewood Back and so very clearly about
Speaker 1: the relationships that the band had with each other, And
Speaker 1: it's been so fun to kind of watch all of
Speaker 1: these kids on TikTok and Twitter kind of become really
Speaker 1: obsessed with them and being like, oh, this is like
Speaker 1: this really happened, Like this is like a lot of stuff,
Speaker 1: or like even crazier stuff has happened.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: It's like, yes, like Into the Six is like barely
Speaker 1: scratching the surface of like the decades that this band
Speaker 1: has had together.
Speaker 2: You know, absolutely no fictional version could ever live up
Speaker 2: to the melodrama the real version. And also just the
Speaker 2: craziest is that it's wild enough that they're doing this
Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy seven, that they're standing on stage and
Speaker 2: singing all these songs about breaking up with each other.
Speaker 2: How horrified would they be to think that they'd still
Speaker 2: be doing this.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's still a couple more decades they're going to
Speaker 1: learn about. Yes, yes, yes, Like wait until everyone learns
Speaker 1: about the music care stuff, Like they're going to be
Speaker 1: real shocked.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like, sorry, you guys are not even halfway through.
Speaker 2: You're just getting there, Yes, exactly. The worst is yet
Speaker 2: to come.
Speaker 1: And now we are going to have a very special
Speaker 1: guest rolling Stones, Angie Martosio, who's going to be discussing
Speaker 1: dreams even further with us. Thank you so much, Angie
Speaker 1: for coming to chat with us today.
Speaker 4: Oh, anytime I can talk about Fleetwood Mac with you
Speaker 4: guys is special.
Speaker 1: So let's hear a little of your your Fleetwood Mac
Speaker 1: origin story.
Speaker 5: So we're talking about the cover.
Speaker 4: You know, I heard you guys discuss that, and I
Speaker 4: just want to point out that I thought for years,
Speaker 4: as a ballet dancer that Stevie was a like professional
Speaker 4: ballerina because of that cover of Urmers, and I did
Speaker 4: not know for years if that was not the case.
Speaker 4: My own Fleetwood Mac experience is pretty much similar to you.
Speaker 4: We're the same age, so for me, it was like
Speaker 4: late nineties, early aughts, you know when Fleetwood Mac in general.
Speaker 4: I didn't know that Landslide was a Fleetwood Mac song
Speaker 4: for a very long time. I knew it also from
Speaker 4: the Chicks and from Smashing Pumpkins. Uh.
Speaker 5: And then once I.
Speaker 4: Fell into that obviously like it opened the doors for
Speaker 4: everything else for me.
Speaker 1: And what sort of turned you into a big fan
Speaker 1: of the band.
Speaker 4: This is also because of my age, but it's Stevie
Speaker 4: Nicks simple. I love all of them for different reasons.
Speaker 4: I think they have great eras in different periods, but
Speaker 4: for me, Stevie is kind of what encompasses what I
Speaker 4: love about that band.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And do you have any like fun origin story
Speaker 1: for Dreams or like the first time you heard it
Speaker 1: or was it just a song in the same way
Speaker 1: that you know it's kind of always around.
Speaker 4: I really love that song to the point where I
Speaker 4: may have fiddled with our list of the greatest Fleetwood
Speaker 4: Mac songs recently and I may have put Dreams as
Speaker 4: number one instead of a different song.
Speaker 5: Go your Own Ways Now at number two.
Speaker 4: I made Dreams number one, and I had some comments
Speaker 4: being read on the side after that. That was like
Speaker 4: a millennial must have messed with this list, and I
Speaker 4: was like, yeah, actually I did. It's the I'm sorry.
Speaker 4: It's just their greatest song. It's the synthesis of what
Speaker 4: makes that band so excellent. It's all of their input together.
Speaker 4: Obviously Stevie's leading it, but there's so much mythology around it.
Speaker 4: I feel like there could be books on just.
Speaker 3: That song alone. Do you have a favorite line?
Speaker 4: I think just like a heartbeat because it reminds me
Speaker 4: of this is so nerdy and I'm sorry, but it
Speaker 4: reminds me of a growl and.
Speaker 5: Po of the tellsale art. It's like, so.
Speaker 4: She's making it not just like, oh you broke my
Speaker 4: heart and I'm upset about that, She's making it this
Speaker 4: like visceral like paranoia.
Speaker 5: That's very similar.
Speaker 4: She does that later on with Silver Springs, obviously, just
Speaker 4: like You're never gonna escape me.
Speaker 5: I'm here all the time.
Speaker 4: This is the heartbeat that's going to drive you mad
Speaker 4: because of what you did. And it's so it's like
Speaker 4: it's beyond a love song to me, it's beyond a
Speaker 4: heartbreak song. This is like full encompassing, like sick to
Speaker 4: my stomach feeling over this yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the enjamment between heart beat, it's so intense, one
Speaker 2: of those great Stevie pauses.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and you know, like most incredible songs. They like
Speaker 4: to say this that it was written in ten minutes,
Speaker 4: which is absolutely insane, let alone on sly Stone's bed,
Speaker 4: which I don't think is disgusted enough.
Speaker 5: That there's this you know, record plant, Salsalito.
Speaker 4: It's been it reopened recently, but it closed in two
Speaker 4: thousand and eight. And before that you had everyone from
Speaker 4: like Grateful Dead in there. You had obviously feet with
Speaker 4: Mac and Slidestone had his own like little comfort zone
Speaker 4: room and there's this bed with these like black velvet curtains,
Speaker 4: and Stevie just took some time in there. She didn't
Speaker 4: really want to be in the recording room unless she
Speaker 4: had to, so she was obviously sitting down, you know,
Speaker 4: with her books and art and her you know, journals.
Speaker 4: She went up with this thing on a keyboard and
Speaker 4: kind of brought it out to them and was like,
Speaker 4: see what you think. And they weren't like crazy about
Speaker 4: it at the time, and I think that's worth noting too.
Speaker 4: It was their only number one hit in the US,
Speaker 4: but it's not surprising that it's gotten bigger than ever.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that also is a lot of
Speaker 1: the story with Stevie's songs for Fleet with mac right, Like,
Speaker 1: there's kind of a harder cell for like some of
Speaker 1: the songs to make it to the albums and to
Speaker 1: kind of you know, for people to get on board,
Speaker 1: and so it's kind of wild, like how I don't
Speaker 1: know the foresight that she had about these songs in
Speaker 1: general being kind of so iconic and having these lives
Speaker 1: that go well beyond their release da you.
Speaker 5: Know, Yeah, it's pretty incredible.
Speaker 4: I think just the fact that Silver Strings is left
Speaker 4: off is like one of the greatest tragedies besides like
Speaker 4: the Titanic, you know, Like, but it makes sense they
Speaker 4: didn't want this like slow, it would have made it
Speaker 4: a lot slower the album, and so I totally understand it.
Speaker 4: But I think leaving Dreams on was obviously like the
Speaker 4: better of that she could get.
Speaker 1: I mean, are there, like, who are people that you
Speaker 1: think have sort of accomplished that kind of emulation of
Speaker 1: Stevie as an artist.
Speaker 5: I'm a huge wise Blood fan.
Speaker 4: She to me is extremely obviously singer songwriter from La
Speaker 4: but more than that, She's a very spiritual, mystical lady
Speaker 4: who just reads a lot of books.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 5: It's not about like being cool.
Speaker 4: She's not someone who like does drugs and like is
Speaker 4: on Instagram a lot.
Speaker 5: She literally is just someone who loves to read and
Speaker 5: loves history. And that was very Stevie.
Speaker 4: And her music is so incredible because I mean, I
Speaker 4: can have my own episode about her in general, but Natalie,
Speaker 4: she incorporates such Stevie mythology in the way she sings,
Speaker 4: in her songwriting. There's so much imagery there, but it's
Speaker 4: also not too intense, you know, and it's also very alluring,
Speaker 4: Like it always leaves people kind of obsessed with her.
Speaker 4: Has the same exact quality of her fans are like
Speaker 4: die hard, yeah, and I see that same exact I
Speaker 4: don't know, there's the same kind of following. I think
Speaker 4: that's literally why I love wise Blood so much.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like I.
Speaker 1: Feel like Florence the Machine. I feel like we don't
Speaker 1: we're not finding enough respect on Florence's name generally, but
Speaker 1: I think she gets a lot of that visceral vocal
Speaker 1: performance that Stevie does, and I feel like that's still
Speaker 1: like seeing her live. I'm like this, this feels like
Speaker 1: kind of reliving a lot of those like the Rhiannon
Speaker 1: kind of TV special video that always, you know, is
Speaker 1: one of the mini iconic Stevie videos that people constantly
Speaker 1: have playing on louped in their heads. And I'm like, yes,
Speaker 1: you've learned, You've learned well from.
Speaker 4: And what's also important about these two songwriters that we're
Speaker 4: talking about is that they're not necessarily copying Stevie.
Speaker 5: They're taking what was.
Speaker 4: So great about her and almost reinventing it and introducing
Speaker 4: it to a younger audience. Something that I always think
Speaker 4: about is that for college kids these days, if you
Speaker 4: ask them to name a musician over the age of fifty,
Speaker 4: most of them would probably just know Stevie Nicks.
Speaker 5: And that's all you need to know right there.
Speaker 4: I Mean, you raised this excellent point earlier talking about
Speaker 4: songs like you know, go your Own Way and Don't
Speaker 4: Stop sound so seventies sometimes to a flaw, like I
Speaker 4: obviously love that era, but like I'm sorry, like a
Speaker 4: kid who's twenty one is not going to be like, yeah,
Speaker 4: this is far out.
Speaker 5: You know, that's not a thing.
Speaker 4: Dreams doesn't sound like that you can't put a date
Speaker 4: on it.
Speaker 5: It's very timeless. To me, it could be a hit now.
Speaker 4: I just feel like there's something about it that really
Speaker 4: stands out when you look back at Rumors, and it's
Speaker 4: it's not a shock to me. We put it so hi.
Speaker 4: I mean, obviously, as I stated before, I was really
Speaker 4: rallying for that, but I do think it's the one
Speaker 4: that you can listen to over and over and not
Speaker 4: get tired of, and it really represents what makes this
Speaker 4: band so great and this new iteration, you know, like
Speaker 4: this is a brand new They already had the first
Speaker 4: album obviously, but Rumors was the first time they're all
Speaker 4: sitting down together doing this and it's such a great
Speaker 4: snapshot to me of that time.
Speaker 3: Well, thank you so much, Angie.
Speaker 5: Thank you.
Speaker 4: You know it's important to note too, when we're not
Speaker 4: doing this, we're still doing this talking about it. Yeah,
Speaker 4: this is This is a regular conversation ongoing dialostic.
Speaker 3: Bleetwood, Mac.
Speaker 2: Steve and Christine Rolling Stone.
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening to Rolling Stone's five hundred
Speaker 1: greatest songs. This podcast is brought to you by Rolling
Speaker 1: Stone and iHeartMedia. Written and hosted by me Britney Spanos
Speaker 1: and Rob Sheffield. Executive produced by Jason Fine, Alex Dale
Speaker 1: and Christian Horde, and produced by Jesse Cannon with music
Speaker 1: by Eric Siler.
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for listening and we'll see you in
Speaker 2: the next episode. He