1 00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:12,560 Speaker 1: Hey, Daniel, what's the biggest most expensive science project ever? Well, 2 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:16,320 Speaker 1: you know, us scientists, we love building taxpayer funded toys, 3 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:19,799 Speaker 1: and when we get the freedom to do so, we 4 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:22,680 Speaker 1: spend big. So I think the biggest one is the 5 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:26,279 Speaker 1: International Space Station at like a hundred billion dollars a 6 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:31,920 Speaker 1: hundred billion dollars billion with a B. And by comparison, 7 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 1: the largest particle collider we've ever built comes into only 8 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:39,479 Speaker 1: ten billion dollars. But let's put that in context. For like, 9 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:41,879 Speaker 1: compared to what normal people spend their money on, you 10 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:45,200 Speaker 1: could probably pay for like the college education of forty 11 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:48,479 Speaker 1: or fifty thousand people that much money, or the equipment 12 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 1: that's the equivalent of about two billion lott. Or you 13 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 1: could have spent ten billion dollars on about a hundred 14 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 1: thirty thousand testlas. Oh my goodness. You could go out 15 00:00:57,480 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 1: and be like, you get a test left, and you 16 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: get a test You're the new Oprah Horhan. Science could 17 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 1: be the new Oprah. So that sounds like a lot 18 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 1: of money, but actually, compared to some of the other 19 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:10,319 Speaker 1: things we spend money on, it's not that much, right, 20 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 1: Like how much does one aircraft carrier costs? Yeah, those 21 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:16,320 Speaker 1: things are more than ten billion dollars, and our annual 22 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 1: military budget is like seven hundred billion dollars every year. 23 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:25,960 Speaker 1: Obviously military great and important. Is it's seven hundred billion 24 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:28,319 Speaker 1: dollars important to have nothing? I don't know what else 25 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 1: to say about that. Yeah. Hi, I'm Organ and I'm Daniel, 26 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 1: and we're the host of this podcast. Daniel and Jorge 27 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 1: explained the universe, which takes something south of ten billion 28 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 1: dollars to produce every year. Yeah, much cheaper you can 29 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:00,600 Speaker 1: buy like a bazillion podcast episod So it's of our 30 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 1: show for that kind of money. Actually an infinite number, 31 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 1: since you pay nothing for this podcast. I mean how 32 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 1: much we get? How much? How much we were paid? Yeah, 33 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 1: that would be one billion I think podcast episodes and 34 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 1: ten billion. Yeah, we get about three bananas per per episode. 35 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:19,360 Speaker 1: You get three bananas. I only get two bananas. Where's 36 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:24,519 Speaker 1: my agent? Maybe you get paid in Apple's And that's right. Yeah. 37 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 1: And so this episode we're talking about money, and not 38 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:30,079 Speaker 1: just any kind of money, but money, and that's being 39 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:33,639 Speaker 1: proposed to be spent on the future of particle physics 40 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 1: and so on this episode we're asking the question, is 41 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 1: a new twenty billion dollar particle collider worth the money. 42 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 1: And you know, big science costs money. Anytime we want 43 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:50,639 Speaker 1: to build something big, it costs money. Like I was 44 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 1: in the Bay Area recently and I drove across the 45 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 1: New Bay Bridge. That thing is beautiful, and every time 46 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:58,239 Speaker 1: I drive across it, I think, Wow, look what humans 47 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 1: can create. Right, Like, when we come together there, we 48 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 1: can make things that are so much bigger, so much 49 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:06,240 Speaker 1: more grandiose than anything one human could ever build if 50 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:08,679 Speaker 1: if we pulled together right and spend the money. Yeah, 51 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 1: Cubans working together can achieve things that are incredible. And 52 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 1: that extends also to science. You know, we can do 53 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 1: things in science together as hundreds or thousands of scientists 54 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 1: that we could certainly never do as soul scientists. And 55 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:25,400 Speaker 1: that includes things like space stations and fusion reactors and 56 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 1: particle colliders. Right. Well, it's interesting to think that science 57 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:32,920 Speaker 1: cost money, you know, like it's not something people do 58 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 1: for free as a as a hobby. You have to 59 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 1: pay for people to do it. You have to pay 60 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 1: for people, that's true, um, but also you have to 61 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 1: pay for the stuff, right you have to build, you 62 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 1: gotta test too. We break a lot of test too 63 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 1: when we make a particle collider. Now you've gotta dig 64 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 1: tunnels or you gotta launch stuff in outer space. You know, 65 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 1: it's uh, it uses practical resources. And so you know, 66 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:56,320 Speaker 1: if money is a stand in for like a fraction 67 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 1: of the resources of a society, then yeah, it takes 68 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 1: a fraction of our resources, resources that could have gone 69 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 1: to building schools or hospitals, or swimming pools or mega 70 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 1: mansions for the rich or whatever. So it's definitely a 71 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 1: social choice where should our resources go. Well, this episode, 72 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 1: we are referring to the news recently that CERN the 73 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 1: nuclear the do you know it's certain? I know it's French. 74 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:27,920 Speaker 1: It's something like as the European Center for Nuclear Research, right, 75 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 1: that's right. Yeah, but it's in French. So the acronym 76 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:39,040 Speaker 1: is H inverted sancho Europeyond Nuclear. That's how PEP would 77 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: say that I would not cast you for a children's show. 78 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:51,479 Speaker 1: Excuse him, monsieur, they don't keep the audio engineers. Please 79 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 1: cut all of my bad friend Jackson. Yeah, so, yeah, 80 00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 1: there was news this week that's CERN unveiled their plans 81 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 1: for a new twenty billion dollar particle collider. That's right, 82 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 1: And for those of you who aren't up in the 83 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 1: latest news and particle physics. Remember that certain is the 84 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 1: place that it currently has the latest, greatest, largest, most energetic, 85 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 1: sexiest um collider we've ever built. It's the Large hay 86 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 1: Drawn Collider. It's twenties seven kilometers around in a big 87 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 1: circle underground, so that that one's been around for maybe 88 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 1: over twenty years, right, or it started over twenty years ago. Well, 89 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:31,920 Speaker 1: the Large Hadron Colliders started about two thousand eight, two 90 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 1: thousand nine, depending on how you count, because we had 91 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 1: a few hiccups there. So it's been running for about 92 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:39,479 Speaker 1: ten years. But of course these things take decades to build, 93 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:42,000 Speaker 1: so it's been a project for much longer than ten years. 94 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 1: But it's in the same tunnel as the previous collider, 95 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:48,920 Speaker 1: the Large Electron Proton Collider, which operated in the nineties 96 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 1: and the early two thousand's, So yeah, there's been a 97 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:53,360 Speaker 1: collider in that tunnel for a while, and and that's 98 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 1: the one they used to discover the famous Higgs boson 99 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 1: a couple of years ago. Right, that's right, the Large 100 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 1: Hadron Collider discovered the Higgs boson. And before the Large 101 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 1: Hadron Collider, the biggest accelerator in the world and maybe 102 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: the universe, we don't know. The status of alien particle 103 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 1: physics was outside Chicago, so the Americans had the lead 104 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 1: until about two thousand and seven with a collider outside 105 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 1: Chicago called the Tevatron Firm the National Lab. But then 106 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 1: the Europeans took over with the LHC, and they've been 107 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:22,359 Speaker 1: in the lead ever since. And so the news is 108 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 1: that they're they're going, or they're trying to, or they're 109 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 1: proposing to build an even bigger one, so bigger than 110 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 1: the Large Hadron Collider, a new particle collider called the 111 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:37,160 Speaker 1: Future Circular Collider. I feel like you guys, you physicists, 112 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 1: sort of paint yourself into a corner every time you 113 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:42,719 Speaker 1: name one of these things. You know, you name, You 114 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 1: named it the Large Hadron Collider, and so now you're trapped. 115 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 1: What are you gonna call the next bigger one? The larger? Yes, 116 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 1: there was, there was. There's actually a proposal for a 117 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 1: v LHC, the very large Hydrin Collider, which means gigantic. 118 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 1: You could just keep adding prefixes, the amazing, super extra 119 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:08,039 Speaker 1: califragilistic collider. So you guys went work with Future Circular Collider. 120 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 1: But what are you gonna do once you build it 121 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 1: and you want to build another one, you know, the 122 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 1: future future, the very future circular collider. Oh that's a 123 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 1: good question. Yeah, well, excuse me while I go tear 124 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 1: up the Certain report. We have to start from scratch again. 125 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 1: Jorge found a fatal flaw in terms proposal. I think 126 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 1: the FEC has taken. So, yes, that's true. There's probably 127 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 1: other things FEC with the Federal Communications Commission, the Fudge 128 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 1: Chocolate Corporation, what ye, the Fellowship of of Um, Casual Christians, 129 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 1: circular clowns, the fancy cat caball you know. I don't 130 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 1: know UM, but so Certain did some studies and they 131 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 1: said how big would the next one have to be 132 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 1: and how much would that cost? And so they proposed 133 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 1: one that's a hundred kilometers in circumfort. So remember the 134 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 1: LIGHTCS twenty seven kilometers in their conference, this new one 135 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 1: would be almost three or four times bigger, and they 136 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 1: estimate the cost to be twenty billion dollars worldwide. It's 137 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 1: three times bigger and it's gonna cost twenty billion dollars, 138 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 1: which I think would sort of make it the or 139 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 1: one of the largest science experiments on Earth, like on 140 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 1: the planets, floating space, and so yeah, we thought, is 141 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 1: this worth it? Let's explore the reasons why you might, 142 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:32,079 Speaker 1: as a government official, decide to spend twenty billion dollars 143 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 1: buying abstract knowledge about the universe, and why maybe it's 144 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 1: not a great idea. So Daniel, as usual, went out 145 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 1: into the street and ask people, should we spend twenty 146 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 1: billion dollars on a new collider to understand tiny little particles? 147 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 1: And this is what the unprepared totally randomly a cost 148 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:53,120 Speaker 1: and u c I students had to say, spared than 149 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 1: spending it on on the wall, you know, so yeah, 150 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 1: go go for it, you know, yeah, I think so 151 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 1: that helps me understand those things. And yeah, all right, 152 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:04,440 Speaker 1: I wouldn't say it's a bad use. It's definitely a 153 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 1: good use, better than some other proposals we have today. 154 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:11,000 Speaker 1: But I don't know if that's the most urgent need 155 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 1: that we have right now. I feel like, but a 156 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:17,839 Speaker 1: particle colleteral collider is no waste of money. Oh, sure, 157 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 1: to study more about nature. It sounds like a good idea. 158 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 1: I feel like you were asking them that question, but 159 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:25,679 Speaker 1: you were also sort of trying to validate your own existence. 160 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 1: We're like, do you think this is worth it? What 161 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 1: I do for a living? Well, I didn't tell them 162 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 1: I was a particle physicist. And also I don't actually 163 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:37,320 Speaker 1: have a stake in this because if this collider gets built, 164 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 1: it's not going to turn on until then I'll be 165 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 1: long retired. I thought professors never retired. We just graat away, right, Um, 166 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:51,839 Speaker 1: it won't be done untilty something that's like thirty years 167 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 1: from now. It's a long time. And you know, we're 168 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 1: gonna be operating the late C for another fifteen twenty 169 00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 1: years and building a tunnel like that takes a long time. 170 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 1: After you the precise um, and you've got to start 171 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 1: planning these things decades in advance because it takes a 172 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 1: huge amount of political coordination to get all the countries 173 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 1: together and to sign the treaties. Um, so it's a 174 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:12,560 Speaker 1: big project. So yeah, you gotta start well in advance. 175 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 1: So we're really talking about the future. It's like the 176 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 1: people who are going to probably working at all those 177 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 1: grad students haven't even been born, oh for sure. Yeah, 178 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 1: And so it's this generation is building the collider for 179 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:26,439 Speaker 1: the next generation. But you know, back to the interviews 180 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 1: on the street, I was really heartened. Like I posed 181 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 1: this question, is like is this a good way to 182 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 1: spend taxpayer money? And I tried on purpose to phrase 183 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:37,880 Speaker 1: it a little bit skeptically, but most people were like, yeah, 184 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 1: it sounds good. I'm interested in talking particles. Science is awesome. 185 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:44,200 Speaker 1: Well that's cool. I was heartened by that. Wow, So 186 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 1: you try to add a little bit of like do 187 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:51,440 Speaker 1: you think this is worth it? People responded yeah they did. 188 00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 1: And then this morning I was teaching my class, which 189 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 1: is about four hundred freshmen, and I put a poll 190 00:10:56,960 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 1: up on the the startup class and I asked them, 191 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:01,680 Speaker 1: I said, is it's worth twenty billion dollars to build 192 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:06,239 Speaker 1: a new particle accelerator? And seventy percent of them said yes. Wow. 193 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 1: I think the surprising thing is that thirty of your 194 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:11,560 Speaker 1: students I think you should be out of a job. 195 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 1: It was anonymous, right, so they don't lose credit or 196 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 1: anything for for saying no. But yeah, some of them 197 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:21,680 Speaker 1: I think just thought it's too much money. And you know, 198 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:23,840 Speaker 1: in the interviews, some people make good points like there 199 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 1: are other things we could spend this money on, like 200 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 1: college educations and homelessness, and yeah, some people some people 201 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:31,959 Speaker 1: have brought that up in the interviews to they said 202 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 1: that you know, maybe this is this is money we 203 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 1: could be spending on something else, and every every time 204 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 1: we spend his opportunity costs. Right, dollar you spend on 205 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:42,439 Speaker 1: one thing means you can't spend it on something else. Okay, 206 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:45,440 Speaker 1: So let's jump into it, and let's ask the question. 207 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 1: First of all, why does it cost twenty billion dollars 208 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:50,320 Speaker 1: to make this science experiment? I mean, my son had 209 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 1: a science for the other day and you know he 210 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 1: didn't spend twill dollars. Uh So, yeah, what what does 211 00:11:57,200 --> 00:11:58,720 Speaker 1: it cost so much? And I guess maybe we need 212 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 1: to get into a little bit of how particle collider 213 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:03,680 Speaker 1: words or what. Maybe some people out there don't even 214 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 1: know what a particle collider is, right, Okay, So a 215 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:11,199 Speaker 1: particle collider takes two little particles like protons or electrons, 216 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 1: two tiny little things, and smashes them together. Now, to 217 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:17,559 Speaker 1: get them to go really really fast, you gotta push 218 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:19,720 Speaker 1: them for a while, right, They start off slow. Where 219 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:21,960 Speaker 1: do you get these protons and electrons? You take them 220 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:25,240 Speaker 1: from hydrogen, which is just everywhere. And then how do 221 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 1: you get them to go really fast? You give them 222 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 1: a push, and we can do that using little mini 223 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 1: accelerators like they surf on electromagnetic waves that give them 224 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 1: a little nudge. Meaning like when you create one of 225 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:39,240 Speaker 1: these particles, or you make one, or you you find one, 226 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 1: or you you you get one, it's not moving that fast. 227 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:45,840 Speaker 1: It's not necessarily moving like the speed of light. That's right. 228 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 1: When we start out, it's you know, at rest, like 229 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:50,560 Speaker 1: you take a hydrogen atom, you heat it up so 230 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 1: that the electron leaves and you have a proton and 231 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:55,079 Speaker 1: it's basically just hanging out. So first you got to 232 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 1: give it a kick. Okay, you have to accelerate it. 233 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:00,079 Speaker 1: You have to um, you know, like shoot it of 234 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 1: a cannon. Yeah, exactly. And so we have is a 235 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:05,080 Speaker 1: series of tubes. Each one gives it a kick, and 236 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 1: you pass it through this series of tubes, giving it 237 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:09,559 Speaker 1: more and more kicks until it's going faster and faster 238 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 1: and faster. Right. Yeah, But the problem is you need 239 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:14,440 Speaker 1: a lot of runway, like you need a long cannon 240 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 1: to accelerate these particles. Exactly. You want to get two 241 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 1: really high energies, you need a lot of these kicks. 242 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 1: And so one way to save money is to have 243 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:24,080 Speaker 1: a go in a circle, so you can have it 244 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:27,079 Speaker 1: passed through those tubes over and over and over again, 245 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:29,559 Speaker 1: and each time it comes around you give it a 246 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:31,480 Speaker 1: little bit more energy, and so it goes faster and 247 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 1: faster and faster. Yeah, exactly. It's like your kid on 248 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:36,439 Speaker 1: the swing set. Right. First you give it a little push, 249 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 1: and your kid is swinging, and then when they come back, 250 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 1: you give them another push and another push, and you 251 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:41,520 Speaker 1: don't have to move. The kid comes back to you 252 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 1: every time you give it another push. Eventually your kid 253 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 1: is doing loop de loops over the ball and colliding. 254 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:51,400 Speaker 1: Hopefully not with kids. You bring kids exactly like I'm 255 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 1: I'm doing physics, honey. Yeah, so that's the basic premise, right, 256 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 1: Take a particle, give it a bunch of little pushes 257 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 1: until it gets going really fast. Okay, what why do 258 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 1: you need bigger rings? Right? Well, how do you get 259 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 1: it to move in a circle? Right? You have a 260 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:07,679 Speaker 1: proton zipping along. How do you get to move in 261 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 1: a circle. You need a magnet. A magnet will bend 262 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:12,720 Speaker 1: the path of a charge particle. So we have super 263 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:16,880 Speaker 1: duper strong magnets actually use super conducting materials to make 264 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 1: them really really strong and they bend the particles. Like 265 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 1: you can't just sort of bounce him on the walls 266 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 1: of the tunnel of the tube, right, like you can't 267 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 1: do it, you know. We actually we have grad students 268 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 1: in there and died into protons. Turn left, turn left, turn, 269 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. You need magnets, and like 270 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 1: magnets is the only way to kind of guide these 271 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 1: particles in a circle. That's right. If they smashed in 272 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:39,600 Speaker 1: the walls of the tunnel, they'll be absorbed or interact 273 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 1: or whatever. You want pure protons and you want them 274 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:44,200 Speaker 1: a specific energy, so you don't want to touch them. 275 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 1: So we have a ring with which has vacuum in it, 276 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 1: and the protons are zipping around this vacuum and they're 277 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 1: being steered by magnets. So the way they accelerated work 278 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:53,480 Speaker 1: is it gives it a push and then it bends 279 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 1: it and gives it a push and then it bends it. 280 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:57,360 Speaker 1: It's not actually a circle. It's a bunch of these 281 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 1: little straight lines connected by magnets bend it. But they're 282 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 1: connected in a circle. They're connected in a big circle. 283 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 1: And that way you can go around and around and 284 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 1: around and getting to go faster and faster and faster. Okay, 285 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 1: so that costs money. These cavities cost money, and the 286 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:13,680 Speaker 1: magnets cost money because in order to get to bend 287 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:16,080 Speaker 1: when it's going really fast, you need a really powerful magnet. 288 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 1: But then the tunnel costs a lot of money. Also, 289 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:22,640 Speaker 1: I would think the tunnel is the cheapest part. Man. 290 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 1: You have to drill a huge hole precisely in a circle, 291 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 1: which is not and that's why it's by far the 292 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 1: most expensive part of the collider. Oh I see, it 293 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:36,680 Speaker 1: has to be like perfect, the perfect circle. Yeah, a 294 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 1: perfect circle. Fortunately, the Swiss are great at this. They 295 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:43,720 Speaker 1: are surrounded by mountains and so they've been developing tunnel 296 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 1: technology for a long time. Like they built a tunnel 297 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 1: under the Mont Blanc right one of the mountains and 298 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:50,920 Speaker 1: the Alps. It's this huge tunnel. I thought you were 299 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 1: going to say they're good at building watches, which are 300 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 1: a circular with precision, and so they well, you know, yeah, 301 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 1: there's a lot of precision engineering in Switzerland, but one 302 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 1: of the things they're really good at is tunnel building. 303 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 1: And uh, they have these amazing machines and if you've 304 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 1: seen them, but they look like huge worms and the 305 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 1: front of them are basically just this big grinding face 306 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 1: and then all the rock comes out the back and 307 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 1: they just like chew their way through a mountain. It's 308 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 1: really pretty awesome. Um, and the tunnel is hard, like 309 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:20,240 Speaker 1: it's not actually flat, you know, like you have mountain. 310 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 1: You have got to build something that big. You have 311 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:23,880 Speaker 1: to take into account geology. So on one side you 312 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 1: have mountains, on the other side you have Lake Geneva, 313 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 1: and so you gotta like angle it a little bit. 314 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:30,480 Speaker 1: So it's a it's a big piece of work to 315 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 1: to make that thing happen. Then on top of it 316 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 1: you have all the electronics and all the people and 317 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:38,160 Speaker 1: so yeah, it costs some money. Yeah, Okay, So the 318 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 1: faster you want two particles to go, the bigger the 319 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 1: circle needs to be, which means more tunnel and more 320 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 1: stuff to pay for it. But so what why does 321 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 1: this circle need to be bigger? Well, either you need 322 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 1: to have a bigger circle or you need more powerful magnets, 323 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 1: right or both, Because if they're going faster than to 324 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 1: get them to curve in the same circle, you need 325 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 1: stronger magnets, so it's harder to make them go around 326 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 1: in a circle. The faster they Yeah, exactly, you need 327 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 1: more of a force, you need a stronger magnet, and 328 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 1: we're already using super amazing super conducting magnets and we're 329 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 1: pushing that technology as hard as we can. You might ask, well, 330 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 1: why do we care? Why are we pushing them to 331 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 1: a higher, higher energy, right, And the answer is simple. 332 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:18,480 Speaker 1: It's just E equals mc squared. That is, you take 333 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 1: two little light particles everything. I mean, you could use 334 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:25,920 Speaker 1: that for anything, that's right. Yeah, when my my wife 335 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:27,720 Speaker 1: asked me why I didn't do the dishes, that's what 336 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 1: I say. Equals I have no energy because my mass 337 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 1: is sitting on the couch lazy because I added too 338 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:39,159 Speaker 1: much mass and dinner. That's right. And the speed of 339 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:42,720 Speaker 1: light doesn't save me. Um no, Because we want to 340 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,119 Speaker 1: pour a bunch of energy into one little spot. You 341 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:47,680 Speaker 1: take little protons, you speed them up. Would you give 342 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 1: a lot of energy and you pour that energy into 343 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 1: one little spot and then you can turn the energy 344 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:55,639 Speaker 1: into mass. Right, So light protons and a lot of 345 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:58,439 Speaker 1: energy can turn into some new particle that has a 346 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:01,119 Speaker 1: lot of mass, a particle that doesn't exist in normal 347 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 1: life because it's too heavy. So we can create a 348 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:05,680 Speaker 1: spot with a lot of energy density. Maybe we can 349 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 1: make these new kinds of particles and help unravel the 350 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 1: riddles of dark matter and dark energy and antimatter and 351 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:14,439 Speaker 1: all this crazy stuff. Right. Yeah, that's what the colliders do, 352 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 1: is is when you collide these particles together. Well, first 353 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 1: of all, you shoot one of them in one direction, 354 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 1: and you should deal the one in the other direction, 355 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:23,639 Speaker 1: and then you have him collide. Yeah, and that is hard, right, 356 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:26,439 Speaker 1: We're talking about tiny little particles. And so what we 357 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 1: actually do is we don't shoot one proton at another 358 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:32,399 Speaker 1: proton because you basically always miss. Shoot a little a 359 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:35,680 Speaker 1: little gas of protons against a little gas of other protons, 360 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 1: and we hope like a few of them collect a 361 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 1: little cloud of them. You collide two clusters of them, Yeah, exactly. 362 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 1: We can clide two clusters of them, yeah, okay, And 363 00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:45,159 Speaker 1: so then when they crash, they create this kind of 364 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 1: ball of pure energy, and and that's the stuff you study. 365 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:51,680 Speaker 1: But the more energy they come into the collision with, 366 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:54,080 Speaker 1: the more interesting stuff you can make out of that 367 00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 1: ball of energy. That's right. And when you create a 368 00:18:56,840 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 1: new collider that has more energy than anybody's every us before, 369 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:04,920 Speaker 1: you're really exploring new territory. Right, you're creating collisions and 370 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:08,240 Speaker 1: energy nobody's ever seen before, so you have no idea 371 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 1: what could come out. You could make new kinds of 372 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:13,920 Speaker 1: particles that nobody's ever seen before. That just that we're 373 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:17,200 Speaker 1: there on nature's menu, just waiting for somebody to create 374 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:19,680 Speaker 1: enough energy. You know, particles that haven't existed in nature 375 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:21,879 Speaker 1: since the Big Bang. That was the last time there 376 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 1: was as much energy in one spot. I mean, we 377 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 1: can recreate the Big Bang potentially. Well, we're not recreating 378 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:30,680 Speaker 1: the Big Bang that we're not tearing the universe apart 379 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:32,919 Speaker 1: or anything like that. So those of you who are 380 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 1: worried don't don't worry about that. But we are recreating 381 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:39,080 Speaker 1: some of the conditions just after the Big Bang, like 382 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 1: the the hotness, the density, the heat, the density, the 383 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:45,760 Speaker 1: intensity of the of the energy. Um. We're recreating that 384 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:47,480 Speaker 1: to hope to understand, you know, what happened in the 385 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:50,200 Speaker 1: first few moments after the Big Bang. UM. But more 386 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:52,440 Speaker 1: than that, we want to understand just like what's out there, 387 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 1: what kind of particles can exist? You know, we are 388 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 1: made of up quarks and down quirks and electrons, but 389 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:01,680 Speaker 1: we've found lots other kinds of particles along the way, 390 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 1: and we're looking for patterns and those we have lots 391 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:06,399 Speaker 1: of questions about those. We did a whole podcast episode 392 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:09,119 Speaker 1: about the mysteries of the little particles. So there's a 393 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 1: huge number about standing questions, and one great way to 394 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 1: explore them is to just build a bigger collider and 395 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 1: try to make more particles and see what the patterns are. Well, 396 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 1: let's get into how fast these particles are going, but 397 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:36,960 Speaker 1: first let's take a quick break. Okay, So Daniel tell me, 398 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:40,399 Speaker 1: So these particles are going really really fast. So like 399 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:43,480 Speaker 1: in the large Hattern collider, they're already going at like 400 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:47,480 Speaker 1: point nine of the speed of light, which is the 401 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 1: maximum anything can go at. Right, That's right, And that's 402 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:53,280 Speaker 1: why speed is not really the best way to think 403 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 1: about these things, because there's a speed limit to the 404 00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 1: universe right at the speed of light, and as you 405 00:20:57,760 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 1: get closer and closer, it gets harder and harder to 406 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 1: go fast term, right, But there is no limit on 407 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:06,160 Speaker 1: how much energy a particle can have. Low speeds, yeah, 408 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:08,639 Speaker 1: low speeds when you and I move around, how fast 409 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:10,440 Speaker 1: we're going and how much energy we have are very 410 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 1: closely connected because you know, some physics knows just one 411 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:15,919 Speaker 1: half mv square that's your kinetic energy. But as you 412 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:19,119 Speaker 1: get going really fast, you can keep pouring energy into something, 413 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:22,399 Speaker 1: but it doesn't always make it go faster. Really yeah, 414 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 1: because you ask them topically approach to the speed of light. 415 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:27,360 Speaker 1: But you can keep pouring energy onto it. Right, So 416 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 1: we don't use normal units of energy when we talk 417 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 1: about particles. We talk about electron bolts for scale. The 418 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:37,520 Speaker 1: energy that's stored in a proton is about one giga 419 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:41,159 Speaker 1: electron bolts. That's a billion electron bolts. But is it 420 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 1: sort of because it doesn't sound as impressive, do you 421 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:46,480 Speaker 1: know what I mean? Like to go you're basically asking 422 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:50,440 Speaker 1: for twenty billion dollars to go from like po seed 423 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:54,639 Speaker 1: of light too, nine the speed of light. It's just 424 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 1: annoying to say all those nines all the time. They 425 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 1: at some point, Yeah, yeah, it's not impressive, but also 426 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:05,880 Speaker 1: it's not as useful. Right, Let's choose units that reflect 427 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:07,359 Speaker 1: the thing we're doing. And the thing we're doing is 428 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:09,480 Speaker 1: trying to create a lot of energy in a small 429 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:11,640 Speaker 1: amount of space, So let's talk about the energy that's there. 430 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:14,080 Speaker 1: But you're right, these things are zipping along near the 431 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:17,679 Speaker 1: speed of light, and the current accelerator we have is 432 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:20,960 Speaker 1: capable of colliding particles um with the energy the collision 433 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 1: is thirteen terra electron bolts. So that's thirteen thousand times 434 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:29,399 Speaker 1: the energy stored in a proton, and the new one 435 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:32,640 Speaker 1: would be capable of collisions at about a hundred terra 436 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 1: electron bolts seven times more, exactly seven times more energy. 437 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 1: And that's like a whole new energy range. Right, Humans 438 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:43,479 Speaker 1: up till now have explored the energy range of up 439 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 1: to thirteen TV. You turn on that new collider, you 440 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:50,400 Speaker 1: have multiplied by seven how much energy we have explored, 441 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:53,680 Speaker 1: how much territory and particle physics we have explored. It's 442 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 1: say you're an astronomer. It's like you could simultaneously land 443 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:00,680 Speaker 1: on seven new Earth like planets all at once and 444 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 1: like have a whole new amount of territory to explore 445 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:07,919 Speaker 1: all at once. An incredible opportunity, right, Well, um, it 446 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:10,920 Speaker 1: sounds like a great deal for twenty billion dollars um. 447 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 1: So that's a let to get into a little bit. 448 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:19,399 Speaker 1: So why why build it? Why spend billion dollars on 449 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 1: this one question? Or what a couple of questions about 450 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 1: the universe. For me, it's about exploration. And of course 451 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 1: I'm biased, right. I went into this field particle physics 452 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:31,199 Speaker 1: because I think the questions are fascinating. You know, what 453 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:33,440 Speaker 1: is the universe made out of? How is it organized? 454 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:37,120 Speaker 1: How did it all begin? And also I'm just curious, 455 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:38,960 Speaker 1: like I want to explore the universe. I want to 456 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:40,959 Speaker 1: know what's out there past our solar system. I want 457 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 1: to know how things began. And so to me, the 458 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:47,440 Speaker 1: opportunity to learn the answers to these questions is tremendous. 459 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:51,119 Speaker 1: Some of these questions can be answered only by big 460 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 1: science like telescopes and particle colliders, and we have the technology, 461 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 1: we know how to do these things. The only thing 462 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:01,159 Speaker 1: standing between us and the answers is time and money. 463 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 1: This is not like, hey, can we make a quantum 464 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:06,399 Speaker 1: computer work? Maybe? Probably, but you know, we have a 465 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:08,320 Speaker 1: lot of big puzzles to figure out. It's like, we 466 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:09,920 Speaker 1: know how to do this, we just need to build 467 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 1: a bigger one and we can get answers. We can 468 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 1: pull back the current on nature's mysteries. It just takes 469 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:17,800 Speaker 1: some cash. Right. Of course, we don't know if we're 470 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:20,159 Speaker 1: gonna like the answers we get or if they're just 471 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:22,639 Speaker 1: going to generate more questions. Yeah, and it's not like 472 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:26,240 Speaker 1: we're going to get the answer otherwise, you know, you 473 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:27,639 Speaker 1: know what I mean, Like, if we don't spend this 474 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 1: money to build these colliders, we're just never gonna know 475 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 1: some of these quick, big questions about the universe. Potentially 476 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:37,120 Speaker 1: that's true. Um, I'm sure there are folks out there 477 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 1: in adjacent fields that work on similar stuff that might say, actually, 478 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:42,920 Speaker 1: you know, why don't you give me that twenty billion dollars. 479 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 1: I'm gonna really they would be able to answer these 480 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 1: big questions about like a dark matter and how many 481 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:52,479 Speaker 1: particles there are? You think, well, some of the questions 482 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:54,359 Speaker 1: can only be answered in the collider, you know, like 483 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 1: are there new heavy particles out there? Some of these 484 00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:59,400 Speaker 1: things are exclusively the province of colliders. But a lot 485 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:02,119 Speaker 1: of these quests, um, could be answered in other ways, 486 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,200 Speaker 1: you know, new telescopes peering deep into the history of 487 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:08,960 Speaker 1: the universe, or other kinds of particle experiments looking specifically 488 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 1: for dark matter. And that's the thing. We don't know 489 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 1: what's out there, right. We can't promise this new collider 490 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 1: is going to discover particles X, Y and z because 491 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,159 Speaker 1: we don't know what's out there. We want to just explore. 492 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:21,960 Speaker 1: What we do know is that we know very little 493 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 1: about the universe. Right. We know that we can explain 494 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:27,680 Speaker 1: five percent of the matter in the universe in terms 495 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 1: of the particles were familiar with, and the rest is 496 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:32,879 Speaker 1: dark matter and dark energy in these great mysteries. So 497 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,400 Speaker 1: we know that we know very little, which means it's 498 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 1: time to explore in a sort of an open minded way, 499 00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:40,520 Speaker 1: right we don't we know that we know very well 500 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 1: that we know very little, which means we should be 501 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:44,280 Speaker 1: looking in every way we can. So what I would 502 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:46,960 Speaker 1: say is, yeah, let's build a collider, and let's also 503 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:49,400 Speaker 1: build those other things. Oh, you've got a great idea here. 504 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:54,600 Speaker 1: You take twenty billion, you gotta you take for exactly. 505 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:57,480 Speaker 1: Let's have a huge science party. You know. It's it's 506 00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:00,639 Speaker 1: incredible to me that as humans, we could like change 507 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,600 Speaker 1: our relationship with the universe by learning the answers to 508 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,560 Speaker 1: these questions, and we just don't because we want to 509 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:09,239 Speaker 1: build another aircraft carrier, or because we want to give 510 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 1: a tax cut to the rich, or whatever, you know, 511 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 1: we want to buy more plastic crap from China. I 512 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:17,320 Speaker 1: mean the amount of funding we give to science research 513 00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 1: compared to like how much we spend on our smartphones 514 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:25,719 Speaker 1: is ridiculous. Hey, what do we use our smartphones to do? Signs? 515 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 1: Let's put your smartphone in the particle colliers? Is that 516 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:31,680 Speaker 1: what you mean? But you know, I think it's interesting 517 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:35,520 Speaker 1: that this concept of exploration, because you know, maybe people 518 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 1: think exploration means going out into the stars or going 519 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 1: somewhere and looking at different things, but here you're it's 520 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:49,480 Speaker 1: it's kind of exploring inwards or exploring smaller and smaller 521 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 1: scales and seeing what's there and what can come out 522 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 1: of these higher energies in such small places. That's right, 523 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:57,840 Speaker 1: And smaller and smaller scales is a great way to 524 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:00,600 Speaker 1: think about it. Um, the more enter you put into 525 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:04,160 Speaker 1: one of these collisions, the smaller the distances that you're probing. 526 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 1: If you like to think about particles as waves, remember 527 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:09,520 Speaker 1: there's a very close connection between the energy of a 528 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:13,399 Speaker 1: particle and the wavelength of its wave function, this quantum 529 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:16,359 Speaker 1: mechanical thing that controls how it moves. So the higher 530 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,760 Speaker 1: the energy the particle, the shorter the wavelength. Now that's 531 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:22,879 Speaker 1: important because you can if you build a microscope you 532 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:26,200 Speaker 1: can't see anything smaller than the wavelength of the light 533 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:29,480 Speaker 1: you're using a right, So if if you want to 534 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:31,960 Speaker 1: see something really really small, you can't use light with 535 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,040 Speaker 1: a wavelength that's bigger than that object, which is why 536 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:37,679 Speaker 1: we make, for example, electron microscopes because electrons have really 537 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,640 Speaker 1: short wavelengths compared to photons, and so we can see 538 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:43,560 Speaker 1: even smaller. So you could think about these particle colliders 539 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:47,240 Speaker 1: is like enormous microscope and looking at matter at the 540 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,159 Speaker 1: tiniest distances were like down to the ten to the 541 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,920 Speaker 1: minus twenty meters is the distance scale explored by the 542 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 1: large a dron collider. So you're right, we're exploring like 543 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,560 Speaker 1: inner space instead of outer space. But still it's exploration. 544 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:02,800 Speaker 1: And I think some people in the community try to 545 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:05,200 Speaker 1: sell these colliders is saying we will find this new 546 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 1: particle x y z, and then it's embarrassing when you 547 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 1: don't find it. But like we don't send um, you know, 548 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:13,560 Speaker 1: rovers to Mars and say and promise we're gonna find 549 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 1: this little green man. We send rovers to Mars because 550 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,159 Speaker 1: we hope to be surprised. We hope to find something 551 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:21,800 Speaker 1: weird and crazy and that would blow our minds, and 552 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:25,160 Speaker 1: that's exactly what we hope for in particle physics. Yeah, 553 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:27,600 Speaker 1: I want to know, and I'm willing to pay more 554 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 1: to do it. Is it kind of like you can 555 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:32,280 Speaker 1: read in the dark because they're just it's just hard 556 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 1: to kind of there's not enough energy there to discern 557 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:37,680 Speaker 1: these small details. But if you turn on the light, 558 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:40,960 Speaker 1: then it's easier to read a piece of paper. Yeah, exactly. 559 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:43,720 Speaker 1: And I feel like we're sitting in a room with 560 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:45,680 Speaker 1: a piece of paper that has the answers to our 561 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,800 Speaker 1: deepest press and all we need to do is flip 562 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 1: that lights. Which, Okay, it cost twenty billion bucks, but 563 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:54,920 Speaker 1: you know, let it on. Let's flip it on. Man. 564 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 1: The other arguments in favor of it are more practical ones, 565 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, every time that we make these big 566 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:04,960 Speaker 1: science projects, there's a lot of new technology that comes 567 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,520 Speaker 1: out of it, right, That's right. And you can go 568 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 1: to you can look at CERN's history, for example, and 569 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 1: you can point to spinoffs that were created along the way. 570 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 1: You know, like, for example, the guy who invented the 571 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:18,440 Speaker 1: World Wide Web, he was working at certain he needed 572 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 1: a way to like connect computers and get people to 573 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:22,960 Speaker 1: talk to each other. Wait wait, wait the Internet. Now 574 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: the Internet, but the Worldwide Web, the Www, the www. Yeah, 575 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:30,240 Speaker 1: and it would have been something else, could have been 576 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:34,840 Speaker 1: the y y y, could have been the uuu or 577 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 1: the me me me um. Yeah. And you know that's 578 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 1: not an argument specifically for particle colliders. That's an argument 579 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:43,880 Speaker 1: for in general investing in big science because along the 580 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 1: way I stumbled across cool stuff. When you set a 581 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:50,880 Speaker 1: bunch of smart people, um, with enough resources to tackle 582 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:53,840 Speaker 1: something that's never been done before, they're going to learn 583 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 1: a lot of amazing new things, right, kind of like, um, 584 00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:58,240 Speaker 1: all the technology that came out of sending people to 585 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 1: the moon, or all this technology that came out as cern. 586 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:05,680 Speaker 1: It's just like when you invest in new ideas and 587 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:09,120 Speaker 1: smart people, stuff is going to come out, not just 588 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 1: maybe what the what the mission was, Absolutely and I'm 589 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 1: most excited about the potential science of it. But you know, 590 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:17,920 Speaker 1: in terms of technological spinoffs, that always happens. You know, 591 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:20,640 Speaker 1: you can't predict and so you shouldn't guarantee, but that 592 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 1: kind of thing always happens. And if you look long term, 593 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,440 Speaker 1: every dollar you spend on basic research and development comes 594 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 1: back to your society a hundred or a thousandfold. It's incredible, 595 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:35,200 Speaker 1: you know, like all the transformational inventions that have changed 596 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 1: the way we live, you know, the transistor and plastic 597 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 1: and all this stuff came out of basic R and D. 598 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 1: And so we need to keep funding that stuff if 599 00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 1: we want to keep transforming our society into new, crazy, 600 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 1: amazing things. Right. It's like every company spends money on 601 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 1: R and D. Right, Like it would be dumb not 602 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 1: to spend money on R and D, because then you 603 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:57,440 Speaker 1: would just be stuck in the same place you are forever, exactly. 604 00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:00,280 Speaker 1: But the corporations these days have become much more focused 605 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 1: on short term gains. You know. I think it's this 606 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:06,959 Speaker 1: like cycle of investment and quarterly reports and you know 607 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:08,600 Speaker 1: how much money you're gonna make next year. So they're 608 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 1: investing less and less in this sort of like blue 609 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 1: sky research that could lead to the next gazillion dollar 610 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 1: profit for them. Right, And this is where government needs 611 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 1: to step in. This is the role of government to 612 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 1: build those the Golden Gate Bridge and the projects that 613 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 1: one person or one company wouldn't do, to invest long 614 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:28,360 Speaker 1: term in our society. Yeah, to spend a billion dollars now, 615 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:30,360 Speaker 1: which is going to be mean a trillion dollars from 616 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 1: return in fifty years. Um. The thing that I don't 617 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 1: get is that is why this isn't more of a 618 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:41,160 Speaker 1: bipartisan issue. You know, if you are interested in America's 619 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:45,600 Speaker 1: economic um hegemony, well you know, invest in basic research, 620 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:48,000 Speaker 1: because that's how we got here. If you're interested in 621 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 1: America's military um hegemony, well, where do you think that 622 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:55,800 Speaker 1: came from? If you're you know, if you are America first, 623 00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,600 Speaker 1: you should be pro research. You should be shoveling buckets 624 00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:00,960 Speaker 1: of cash to physics people, be because that's how we 625 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:03,600 Speaker 1: got where we are. Well, let's if you're interested in 626 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:05,960 Speaker 1: big science, so you're interested in in um, you know, 627 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:09,520 Speaker 1: technological advantage, you're interested in military pre eminence. All those 628 00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:12,240 Speaker 1: things came from basic research. Yeah, well let's get into 629 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:28,200 Speaker 1: the economics a little bit. But let's take another quick break. Okay, 630 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:32,160 Speaker 1: so let's take the maybe contrarian position. So why what 631 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:36,560 Speaker 1: are reasons why maybe spending twenty billion dollars on a 632 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:40,000 Speaker 1: new collider is not a good idea? Well, one strong 633 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:42,800 Speaker 1: argument is that we don't live in a fantastical environment 634 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:46,200 Speaker 1: that I described, where politicians are throwing money at everybody 635 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 1: has a good idea for an experiment. In reality, we'll 636 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:51,400 Speaker 1: live in more of a zero sum situation where if 637 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:53,480 Speaker 1: you get a billion dollars for your science, that money 638 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 1: is probably coming away from other science. So really it's 639 00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:59,880 Speaker 1: a question of priorities. Should we spend twenty billion dollars 640 00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 1: on this or should we build twenty billion dollar experiments 641 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:08,680 Speaker 1: or you know, a hundred smaller or a thousand even smaller, 642 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:11,360 Speaker 1: one twenty projects that cost one billion dollars each, or 643 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:16,360 Speaker 1: you know, twenty one million dollar projects exactly because you 644 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:19,520 Speaker 1: know what, there's no shortage of awesome ideas for new 645 00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:21,640 Speaker 1: science that we could do. If you work at a 646 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 1: funding agency, then you're constantly being sent awesome ideas by 647 00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:28,840 Speaker 1: smart people who spend a huge amount of time being 648 00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:31,480 Speaker 1: clever and proposing to use something really fascinating to do 649 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 1: to learn something interesting, and you mostly have to say no. 650 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:37,120 Speaker 1: And the reason is that there just isn't enough money. Right. 651 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: There are limits to how much money we spend in 652 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:41,000 Speaker 1: science in general, in society too, right. I mean, some 653 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:43,200 Speaker 1: people in the interviews brought up that maybe we should 654 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:47,360 Speaker 1: spend that money somewhere else, like education or helping comes 655 00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:51,840 Speaker 1: just within just within science. It's having such a big 656 00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:55,479 Speaker 1: gorilla can crowd out other projects, other valuable projects, and 657 00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:57,640 Speaker 1: it can focus the whole community on sort of one 658 00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:00,120 Speaker 1: area when you might think it would be healthier to 659 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:02,480 Speaker 1: have a diversity, you know, instead of having putting all 660 00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:04,840 Speaker 1: your eggs in one basket, do do a few things. 661 00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 1: But you're right, Now there's a bunch of little monkeys 662 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,640 Speaker 1: as opposed to a giant gorilla. That's right, who would 663 00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:13,960 Speaker 1: you rather fight? Anyway? And just give him a typewriter 664 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:16,840 Speaker 1: each and they'll eventually, you know, you just have to 665 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:19,200 Speaker 1: wait to try. They'll eventually write a better script for this, 666 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:22,040 Speaker 1: for this podcast than we could ever come up with. Um. 667 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:24,399 Speaker 1: But you're right then there there are also other things 668 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:26,800 Speaker 1: we could spend this money on, right, Like the state 669 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:30,879 Speaker 1: of early childhood education in this country is appalling. The 670 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:34,239 Speaker 1: the social welfare system we have in this country is 671 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:38,480 Speaker 1: terribly weak. The infrastructure, it's always infrastructure, weekn um since 672 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:41,160 Speaker 1: Donald Trump became president. The infrastructure of this country needs 673 00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:43,120 Speaker 1: to repair. So we could spend that money well in 674 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:46,279 Speaker 1: lots of places. And it's hard to know, like how 675 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:49,320 Speaker 1: do you compare right, how do you compare um infant 676 00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:53,440 Speaker 1: formula to potential particle collider. And it's hard to it's 677 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,560 Speaker 1: hard to weigh those things. Yeah, how do you prioritize 678 00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,480 Speaker 1: or how do you put a value on science as 679 00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:04,719 Speaker 1: opposed to people's immediate sort of happiness and comfort. It's impossible, right, 680 00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:06,320 Speaker 1: And that's why we should try to do all of 681 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,480 Speaker 1: these things. Right, We have to weigh these things. Um, 682 00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:12,960 Speaker 1: work harder, work harder, you know, UM, don't charge as much, Daniel, 683 00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:16,680 Speaker 1: take a pay cut. Remember the cost of the collider 684 00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,680 Speaker 1: is mostly the tunnel, not the people. And the twenty 685 00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:22,880 Speaker 1: billion dollars is a worldwide cost, not for the US 686 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:25,799 Speaker 1: or for any single country or for any taxpayer. Right. 687 00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:29,920 Speaker 1: The argument I find hard is to sustain our incredible 688 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,040 Speaker 1: military budget at the expense of everything else, you know, 689 00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:35,400 Speaker 1: even science aside, like that would take some of that 690 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:38,480 Speaker 1: seven bion dollars and put it towards education or healthcare. 691 00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:40,480 Speaker 1: You might think, like, well, you know, do we need 692 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:44,920 Speaker 1: ten aircraft carriers? Can we have nine and a dollar 693 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:48,200 Speaker 1: particle collider? Exactly where what pawn shop can you go 694 00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:50,600 Speaker 1: to to trade in your aircraft carrier to get ten 695 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:56,160 Speaker 1: billion dollars? I think Russia or maybe Northeast. Yeah, probably 696 00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:58,760 Speaker 1: they would be happy to buy it from us. Um. Yeah, exactly. 697 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:00,560 Speaker 1: But you know these are political choices, is, and everybody 698 00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:02,600 Speaker 1: out there can have their own opinion about what is 699 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:06,000 Speaker 1: the best way. We'll hear um some opinions on this episode, 700 00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:09,160 Speaker 1: Yeah exactly, and I totally respect some people think maybe 701 00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:10,839 Speaker 1: it's not worth the money. I hope the people who 702 00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:12,920 Speaker 1: happen to be listening to this podcast are the ones 703 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,479 Speaker 1: who think that science is a good way to spend 704 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,239 Speaker 1: our money, and that you call your representatives around the 705 00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:21,160 Speaker 1: world and tell them, yeah, let's build another particle collider, 706 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,400 Speaker 1: and let's also fund a new space telescope and another 707 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:29,000 Speaker 1: international space station and education for everybody, because these things, 708 00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:30,719 Speaker 1: if we spend the money now, it will come back 709 00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:33,560 Speaker 1: to us later. Yeah. And if you're a politician out 710 00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:36,640 Speaker 1: there listening, just think about it. Seventy of our data 711 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:40,880 Speaker 1: sample supports big science. That's right. So send us twenty 712 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:44,279 Speaker 1: billion dollars and we'll take care of it. We'll make 713 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:49,480 Speaker 1: a billion one dollar podcasts, exactly, we will. We promised 714 00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:51,640 Speaker 1: not to spend it on twenty billion dollars of bananas, 715 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:54,759 Speaker 1: right Orge, What what I'm not hearing? You're probably I 716 00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:56,960 Speaker 1: can't make any guarantees. You know, it's science. You can't 717 00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,920 Speaker 1: make any guarantees. That's right. Well, how about if we 718 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:03,840 Speaker 1: discovered the banana particle, that thing that makes banana is 719 00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:13,000 Speaker 1: so amazing, Yeah, and slippery and m but but in 720 00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:14,919 Speaker 1: your view it is worth it, right, in your view, 721 00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:17,680 Speaker 1: you would pay anything for science, right. Do you think 722 00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:21,800 Speaker 1: that there's no higher calling, perhaps than trying to figure 723 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:25,160 Speaker 1: out our placing, the universe and how it all works. Yeah, 724 00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:27,160 Speaker 1: And I think as a society we should aim high. 725 00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:31,600 Speaker 1: We should build incredible buildings and long bridges, and we 726 00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:34,920 Speaker 1: should unravel the mysteries of the universe. And you know, 727 00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:37,200 Speaker 1: we can focus on our day to day chores and 728 00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:39,239 Speaker 1: the things we need to survive. We also need to 729 00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:41,560 Speaker 1: think about what makes us human and that's you know, 730 00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:46,200 Speaker 1: the cultural experience that includes art, creating beauty and creating 731 00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:49,360 Speaker 1: and creating knowledge. And uh, I think that's part of 732 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:51,919 Speaker 1: what makes life worth men as a species, we can't 733 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:53,560 Speaker 1: just be looking down all the time. You sort of 734 00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:56,960 Speaker 1: have to look up as out into the horizon. Exactly. 735 00:37:57,239 --> 00:37:59,360 Speaker 1: All right, thank you for listening. I hope that this 736 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:01,879 Speaker 1: inspired you a little bit too look up and think 737 00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:05,160 Speaker 1: about the big questions about the universe that's right, And 738 00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:08,760 Speaker 1: hope that our society and our children and their children's 739 00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:12,080 Speaker 1: children will continue to explore both outwards and inwards to 740 00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:15,759 Speaker 1: unravel these questions of about the universe, these deep, deep 741 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:19,280 Speaker 1: mysteries we all want answers to. All Right, thanks for listening, 742 00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:29,280 Speaker 1: See you next time. If you still have a question 743 00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:32,759 Speaker 1: after listening to all these explanations, please drop us a line. 744 00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:34,920 Speaker 1: We'd love to hear from you. You can find us 745 00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:38,759 Speaker 1: at Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at Daniel and Jorge that's 746 00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:42,160 Speaker 1: one word, or email us at Feedback at Daniel and 747 00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:52,320 Speaker 1: Jorge dot com.