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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.

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Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

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Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.

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Speaker 1: Or showed us an email at trust Me pod at

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Speaker 1: gmail dot com.

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Speaker 2: Trust Me.

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Speaker 3: Trust Me. I'm like a swat person.

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Speaker 4: I've never lied to you, I've never.

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Speaker 2: Had a live If you think that one person has

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Speaker 2: all the answers, don't.

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Speaker 5: Welcome to trust Me.

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Speaker 2: The podcast about cults, extreme belief and manipulation from two

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Speaker 2: really good dinner guests who've actually experienced it.

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Speaker 5: And I'm Lowell Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth.

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Speaker 2: Today is part two of our interview with our Derek Black,

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Speaker 2: former white supremacist turn anti racism advocate and author of

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Speaker 2: new book The Klansman's Son, My Journey from White Nationalism

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Speaker 2: to Anti Racism. Last week, we left off with Derek

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Speaker 2: going to college and living a double life, secretly hosting

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Speaker 2: a racist talks in the mornings while hanging out with

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Speaker 2: Jewish people and people of color the rest of the day,

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Speaker 2: and today We're going to talk about how and when

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Speaker 2: Derek's identity became exposed to the friend group.

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Speaker 1: We'll talk about how people responded completely differently to discovering

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Speaker 1: they were on campus, how they were invited to Shabbat

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Speaker 1: dinner buy some Jewish friends, and how over time the

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Speaker 1: cognitive dissonance of believing in ideology that was dangerous to

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Speaker 1: people they care about began to wear on them, eventually

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Speaker 1: leading them to denounce white nationalism yay.

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Speaker 2: Plus we'll briefly touch on how they came out as

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Speaker 2: trans in the book. There are so many good interesting

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Speaker 2: nuggets in this conversation that, like, I don't want to

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Speaker 2: give any of them away, but they have a lot

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Speaker 2: of really interesting things to say on the different types

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Speaker 2: of approaches for someone who is indoctrinated and what works

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Speaker 2: and the process of it all, which is ultimately the

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Speaker 2: thing that I think I find the most fascinating is like,

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Speaker 2: how do you deconstruct something that that's so deeply ingrained

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Speaker 2: totally Well, just note we are all three white people

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Speaker 2: talking about racism.

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Speaker 5: We are aware of this fact. We're doing our best here.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, Before we get.

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Speaker 2: Into it with Derek, Megan, what is your cultiest thing

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Speaker 2: of the week.

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Speaker 1: Well, I was reading some Epstein news as I do.

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Speaker 1: One of the women who is one of his lieutenants

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Speaker 1: is named Sarah Kellen. And what interests me about Sarah

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Speaker 1: is that I was reading some articles by her parents

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Speaker 1: who were saying, actually, she doesn't really have responsibility about

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Speaker 1: what she did with him, because at the time she

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Speaker 1: was working for Jeffrey, she was being shunned by us

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Speaker 1: because they were and are Jehovah witnesses. So they still

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Speaker 1: are her parents, they still are interesting. So she was

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Speaker 1: cut off from her family essentially once she turned eighteen.

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Speaker 1: She was doing some modeling, and their defense of her

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Speaker 1: is that she had nowhere else to turn. So it's

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Speaker 1: kind of an interesting story, especially when we're talking today

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Speaker 1: to Derek about growing up with beliefs and then suddenly

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Speaker 1: ripping them away and what does that look like and

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Speaker 1: all of those things kind of piqued my interest.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I would imagine she'd be in a particularly vulnerable

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Speaker 2: place in that moment, although of course that does not

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Speaker 2: absolve someone of crime exactly, But yeah, it sounds like

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Speaker 2: the perfect kind of person for Jeffrey Epstein to get

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Speaker 2: to do stuff for him that'll be interesting to see

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Speaker 2: if that holds any weight.

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Speaker 5: I can't imagine it would in court.

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Speaker 6: I don't know. What about you, what's your cultiest thing

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Speaker 6: of the week.

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Speaker 2: Well, there's so much that's culty in the world right now,

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Speaker 2: you guys, we all know about Project twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 5: We all know about all the horrible shit.

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Speaker 2: But today we're going to talk about a smaller sad thing.

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Speaker 2: Or we I for my cultiest thing, no one else

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Speaker 2: trust me. Sarma from Bad Vegan. If y'all remember she

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Speaker 2: was told by her manipulative ex that he was going

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Speaker 2: to make her dog live forever.

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Speaker 1: And she like lost everything for those pursuit.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and her whole life was turned upside down because

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Speaker 2: of following this man who was telling her this lie.

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Speaker 2: The dog has finally died. Wow, so sad.

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Speaker 1: That's exactly like predicting the apocalypse and it doesn't happen.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, why choose something so specific.

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Speaker 5: Like yeah, he knows the dog's good.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, but he's like it doesn't matter at that point.

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Speaker 2: But that's the thing, Like they also know that the

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Speaker 2: apocalypse isn't going to happen, or like I'll figure it

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Speaker 2: out later, right, I'll just change my story then, right, I.

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Speaker 1: Guess you have to have like kind of a psychopathic

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Speaker 1: mind to even think like that.

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Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, but I would think if I were that

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Speaker 2: calculating that I was going to such great lengths to

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Speaker 2: like indoctrinate someone, that I would plan a little better. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: At least they had about a cat who's going to

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Speaker 1: live for twenty years.

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Speaker 2: For some reason, it made me think of Jatar's former

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Speaker 2: QAnon guy, who I still love and want him to

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Speaker 2: come back. But it's talking about how some of the

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Speaker 2: q drops were just like predicting things that Trump already

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Speaker 2: was saying all the time.

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Speaker 5: Yes, So it's like that's a smarter.

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Speaker 2: Method because you're like, this is definitely going to happen.

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Speaker 2: This isn't like a question of you know, I won't

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Speaker 2: have to like change my story. But listen, they're impulsives.

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Speaker 2: They're just doing whatever they want.

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Speaker 6: Amen.

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Speaker 1: He's a vulnerability in her with how much he loved

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Speaker 1: her dog, he stuck onto it and successfully ruined a

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Speaker 1: beautifulman's life. So the dog is unfortunately dead, but rip

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Speaker 1: Sarma is free from her belief in this weird man.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, listen, when Rambo, you're dressed in peace, My dog

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Speaker 2: who died a couple years ago. When he was sick,

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Speaker 2: there were times when I felt so fucking desperate to

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Speaker 2: get him better that like, for sure, I mean not

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Speaker 2: necessarily in the same way, but like if someone came

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Speaker 2: along and was like, I've got something that's going to

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Speaker 2: make your dog better, I would certainly want to hear.

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Speaker 5: What they had to say.

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Speaker 6: You know, Yeah, we love.

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Speaker 2: Our pups are and now our cats, because now I

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Speaker 2: have Jason Bourne at home, may he live forever?

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Speaker 1: What they do and someone has had one for fifteen years,

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Speaker 1: bought one when I was a kid and was like,

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Speaker 1: this will be fast, and she just keeps living.

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Speaker 6: I thought, the cute.

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Speaker 2: Sorry, I love Jason Bourne. I love my cat, but

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Speaker 2: your cat is actually the cutest cat.

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Speaker 6: It's the craziest cat.

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Speaker 2: My cat looks evil like he's gonna like he's plotting something,

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Speaker 2: like he's he's the one who is plotting to tell

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Speaker 2: you that you're doing right?

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Speaker 4: Right? Yeah?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, okay, Well shall we begin. Let's talk to Derek.

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Speaker 2: Okay, first, can you briefly tell us how you were

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Speaker 2: actually outed to your friends and what the response was.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so I'd spent a semester there and I do.

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Speaker 3: This was going to explode, and then I was going

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Speaker 3: to be studying abroad for the second semester. Just like

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Speaker 3: it felt crazy, it felt impossible, and yet I still

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Speaker 3: didn't bring it up to people. I like, didn't know how,

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Speaker 3: especially my friends. I didn't know how to talk about

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Speaker 3: it to some things I did, like planted a magazine

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Speaker 3: that had an article about me and the gym, and

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Speaker 3: I'm still never sure whether that's what actually triggered it,

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Speaker 3: but it was that article. Like while I was studying abroad,

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Speaker 3: somebody found that article somewhere and posted it on the

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Speaker 3: student forum. And so just one day I logged in

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Speaker 3: and saw hundreds So there were only eight eight hundred

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Speaker 3: students at the school, and you had thousands of posts

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Speaker 3: in this thread over a few days about what to

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Speaker 3: do about me and the fact that I was such

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Speaker 3: a public figure, and then also the fact that a

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Speaker 3: lot of people knew me on campus and knew that

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Speaker 3: interpersonally I was very kind, Like knew that I was

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Speaker 3: friends to lots of people who were not white. I

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Speaker 3: had people who were just like horrified and shocked, And

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Speaker 3: most people who I knew closely just didn't post in

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Speaker 3: this because they could not understand what this was or

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Speaker 3: what was happening. They would ask me, and then I

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Speaker 3: had no explanation either. They would be like, are you

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Speaker 3: a white supremacist? And I would be like, no, no, no,

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Speaker 3: I'm not a white premacist. Actually, I just stand up

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Speaker 3: for the rights of white people, and they would be like,

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Speaker 3: what the hell. And it was just like shocking, horrifying

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Speaker 3: thing that I couldn't square and they couldn't square. And

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Speaker 3: then I was going to be coming back to a

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Speaker 3: campus that was like debating what to do about me,

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Speaker 3: and some people were talking about like punching me at

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Speaker 3: a party, and some people were talking about reaching out

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Speaker 3: to me and trying to talk quietly and suaded me.

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Speaker 3: And it was just like this, like how are we

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Speaker 3: going to handle this kind of situation? And I was

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Speaker 3: walking back into it as like a pariah.

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Speaker 6: Yikes, that's my worst nightmare.

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Speaker 3: That's so scary.

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Speaker 2: So when you actually did get back, I mean, like,

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Speaker 2: how are people treating you?

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Speaker 3: It was more mixed than I recognized, Like the ostracism

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Speaker 3: was real. I had wondered maybe this was like an

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Speaker 3: online thing, and that wasn't like I suddenly people gave

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Speaker 3: me the middle finger when I was like walking to

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Speaker 3: the library. If I walked into a room, like somebody noticed,

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Speaker 3: then everybody like turned towards me and started whispering about it.

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Speaker 4: I tried to go to the first party of the years.

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Speaker 3: The small schools with like one big party every every

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Speaker 3: weekend or Friday and Saturday, and I tried to go

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Speaker 3: to it, and I got surrounded by a bunch of

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Speaker 3: students who were kind of drunk, and like another person

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Speaker 3: I knew like pulled me.

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Speaker 4: Out, And you know, I always look back on that

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Speaker 4: and wonder, like.

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Speaker 3: What that would have been like if it had escalated

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Speaker 3: into some kind of physical thing somebody like attacked me.

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Speaker 3: I don't know, I would have felt a lot a

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Speaker 3: lot more afraid of like really engaging in the way

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Speaker 3: that I ultimately did. And then there were also people

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Speaker 3: who like reached out and invited me in, which was

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Speaker 3: surprising but also didn't feel crazy surprising to me. It

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Speaker 3: felt like tenuous because the person who the main person

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Speaker 3: who did that was observantly Jewish, and I knew him.

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Speaker 3: We had shared study guides and we knew each other's

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Speaker 3: phone numbers, but we weren't like close friends. And he

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Speaker 3: hosted Shabbat dinners on Friday night the people who are

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Speaker 3: observant began the Sabbath for.

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Speaker 4: Saturday, and I, you know.

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Speaker 3: He knew my ideology was anti Semitic, like privately, that

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Speaker 3: was the thing that I was most comfortable having left

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Speaker 3: behind and condemned.

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Speaker 4: I was like, there.

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Speaker 3: Are tiny, tiny subsets of white nationalism for contexts that

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Speaker 3: are not anti Semitic in a very weird way, like

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Speaker 3: they're tied into anti s Semotism, and anti Simmites are

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Speaker 3: always there, and my family was always there who are

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Speaker 3: anti Semitic, but there are tiny subsets of white nationalists

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Speaker 3: who are like, well if a Jew is white, then

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Speaker 3: they're white, like that kind of thing. And that was

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Speaker 3: one of the like it sounds horrifying now and I

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Speaker 3: look back on it, whether it was like the earliest

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Speaker 3: thing where I was like, well, i'll do that. I

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Speaker 3: just won't be anti Semitic. It seems weird and crazy,

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Speaker 3: and the conspiracy theory part seemed harder than the idea

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Speaker 3: of like groupings of humanity are different that somehow felt

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Speaker 3: easier to maintain at that point. And so he was

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Speaker 3: inviting me to these Shabbat dinners and I came, and

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Speaker 3: I expected everybody to debate me or argue with me

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Speaker 3: or curse me out or something, and instead they didn't

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Speaker 3: bring it up at all at first, like they, I learned,

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Speaker 3: had intentionally done that. They had decided like, don't talk

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Speaker 3: about this. And then so we talked about campus life

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Speaker 3: and you know history, and then most everybody else left

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Speaker 3: and went to you know, the party, and then Matthew

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Speaker 3: and I, who had hosted it, talked, and I kept

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Speaker 3: coming back week to week, and then that eventually become

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Speaker 3: like the space where I meet people specifically one person

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Speaker 3: who like starts talking to me about my beliefs specifically,

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Speaker 3: you know, I know Mosha, Yeah, Matthew and Mosha Yeahsha, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: the two friends.

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Speaker 4: And I don't know, I never know quite how detailed.

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Speaker 3: I feel like this is maybe a conversation to get

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Speaker 3: more to eajoke, as we're like talking about deprogramming a

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Speaker 3: little bit more specifically, Matthew and Mosha were really good friends,

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Speaker 3: and I knew Matthew from a little bit of study

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Speaker 3: Guide seven living near him, and then Mosha was going

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Speaker 3: to be my roommate even though I didn't know. I

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Speaker 3: was good friends with a guy who introduced me to him.

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Speaker 3: And he and Matthew knew each other and they hosted

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Speaker 3: the Shabbat dinners together, and so it was like this

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Speaker 3: social scene with people who I knew but not really well,

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Speaker 3: and so therefore they didn't feel deeply betrayed. They hadn't

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Speaker 3: known me super well before, and then I had kept

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Speaker 3: this from them. They just knew of me, and they

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Speaker 3: knew I was like kind and they knew I had,

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Speaker 3: you know, dated somebody who was Jewish who was now

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Speaker 3: horrified because they had not known when we did this.

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Speaker 3: And just that's the social setting where I got invited

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Speaker 3: to these dinners. So I feel like that actually is

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Speaker 3: very important for talking about, just like how.

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Speaker 4: Does this happen?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean this is the piece of this

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Speaker 2: story I'm most interested in. And I heard about you

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Speaker 2: from Mosha's sister, who's like my best friend.

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Speaker 6: I'll be tall.

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Speaker 2: Oh really yeah, years ago, this is always the piece

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Speaker 2: I've wanted to know more about. Like, you get invited

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Speaker 2: to these dinners, Yeah, you'd anticipate not being welcomed or

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Speaker 2: embraced at all, and then they're kind to you. Prior

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Speaker 2: to the part where Alison starts talking to you. Prior

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Speaker 2: to the part where you actually start having conversations about

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Speaker 2: your beliefs. How did that impact you at the time,

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Speaker 2: that kindness, Like, did it change your thinking at all?

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Speaker 3: In the beginning, even the Dinners changed, they didn't change

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Speaker 3: by thinking. I think something I really look back on

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Speaker 3: and is that I recognized how much more powerful and

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Speaker 3: how early feelings happened.

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Speaker 4: And it's like what took a really.

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Speaker 3: Long time were like intellectual conversations. It's like if I

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Speaker 3: think I have some fact about the world, and I

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Speaker 3: thought I was such a rational person, then like if

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Speaker 3: it suddenly feels horrible because like I am, you know,

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Speaker 3: now committed to a worldview that alienates people I love

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Speaker 3: and care about. I still didn't feel like I was

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Speaker 3: somebody who'd just be like, well it's not true. Then,

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Speaker 3: like I felt like unfortunately, And that was what took

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Speaker 3: years of conversation with Alson, who I met at the

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Speaker 3: Shabaz Dinners, was like, y'all are abusing statistics.

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Speaker 4: This is not how you know.

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Speaker 3: Race is not definable, like crime statistics don't work this way,

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Speaker 3: I Q doesn't work this way like all that kind

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Speaker 3: of stuff, Like the race is a social constructed It's

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Speaker 3: like the way we produce our society and punish people

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Speaker 3: and you're looking at base rates and like that stuff

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Speaker 3: took years to be like, oh great, there's no evidence

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Speaker 3: for racism or white supremacy.

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Speaker 4: Amazing. Eventually it didn't feel like that at the time.

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Speaker 3: And but what happened with the Dinners, what happened at

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Speaker 3: the college, what happened with like meeting Zoe, what happened

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Speaker 3: with like meeting everybody who I met was the feeling

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Speaker 3: of I don't want to be somebody who causes you

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Speaker 3: to be afraid, or who harms you, or who like

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Speaker 3: is this person in the world who has to defend

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Speaker 3: something that you find so horrifying and like legitimately dehumanizes you.

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Speaker 3: I don't want to be that, and I don't think

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Speaker 3: I am that? How can I be that? Like that

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Speaker 3: kind of feeling was what took That was a fast feeling,

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Speaker 3: but like, how do I resolve it was the thing

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Speaker 3: that took forever?

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Speaker 6: And are you still doing the show at this point?

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Speaker 4: Yeah? I was still doing the show.

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Speaker 3: The way it ultimately worked was I like started getting

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Speaker 3: away from it as much as I could, Like I

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Speaker 3: started making excuses, so it was five days a week

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Speaker 3: and then I would be like, oh my, I would

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Speaker 3: tell my to like I'm crazy busy. I can't make it,

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Speaker 3: you know, on Wednesdays, and then like, actually, I'm not

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Speaker 3: going to be like it on Thursdays because of my class,

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Speaker 3: and then like and then I would just randomly not

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Speaker 3: call in and be like, oh sorry, I just didn't

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Speaker 3: and then and then eventually it.

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Speaker 4: Got to where I'm like just not calling in.

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Speaker 3: But it wasn't like when I am not going to

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Speaker 3: do the show with you. It was like I was

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Speaker 3: pulling away.

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Speaker 2: To go back to what you were saying just a

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Speaker 2: second ago. One thing we talk about a lot here

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Speaker 2: is how the facts can feel like attacks and they

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Speaker 2: aren't the things that change people's minds ultimately. And so

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Speaker 2: it's particularly interesting window looking into how your mind was

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Speaker 2: changed because it did not begin with the facts.

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Speaker 5: The facts were secondary.

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Speaker 2: The facts came later, and I think that's generally what

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Speaker 2: happens unless someone is particularly interested in research and statistics.

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Speaker 2: But I don't.

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Speaker 1: It reminds me of Fred Phelps's daughter that we had

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Speaker 1: on Megan.

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Speaker 6: I believe her.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you just started interacting with people on Twitter, and again,

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Speaker 1: it took a couple years, but I think she said,

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Speaker 1: It wasn't the facts at first, it was just the relationships.

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Speaker 3: Also on both ends too, you know, it's like in

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Speaker 3: all the circumstances you're talking about, like Megan and me

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Speaker 3: and other people, it's like the feelings come first, and

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Speaker 3: then oh, I need to deal with this.

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Speaker 4: It's also the other end, you know, it.

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Speaker 3: Began with like the feelings that I love my family,

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Speaker 3: my family are upsetting people, family are up for something,

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Speaker 3: and then I need a bunch of facts to justify

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Speaker 3: this because this is an unpopular thing to think. Like,

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Speaker 3: it happened that direction, and then on the other end

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Speaker 3: it happens the same way. Like feelings come quickly, like

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Speaker 3: I don't want to be this comes way before.

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Speaker 4: I'm not this all right?

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Speaker 2: We really are such less rational creatures than we think

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Speaker 2: we are. We're so just driven by emotions and connection

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Speaker 2: and community, even though we all fancy ourselves to be

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Speaker 2: you know, like these really like objective logic driven people.

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Speaker 2: It's just like not really how humans work. So now

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Speaker 2: you've established a relationship with these people, and then one person, Allison,

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Speaker 2: starts finally broaching the subject with you.

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Speaker 5: So can you talk about that?

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Speaker 4: Sure?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So the social structure of that was Matthew stage

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Speaker 3: committed to not bringing this.

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Speaker 4: Up, like he actually didn't.

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Speaker 3: We didn't talk about why nationalism until after I had

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Speaker 3: condemned it after a couple of years of this, which

371
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Speaker 3: was weird, and we both knew what we knew, and

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Speaker 3: he knew me and I knew what.

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Speaker 4: He knew, and it was just kind of don't talk

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Speaker 4: about it.

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Speaker 3: But his roommate was Alison, who was white and not Jewish,

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Speaker 3: and initially her position was like she knew so many

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Speaker 3: people on campus who were just underved and terrified, and

378
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Speaker 3: like she one of her closest friends had been in

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Speaker 3: hellel and they had stopped meeting at first the Jewish

380
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Speaker 3: student Life organization because they were just worry like synagogues

381
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Speaker 3: across the country have security outside, because there was just

382
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Speaker 3: organized Jewish groups, even if it's just like a fun

383
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Speaker 3: picnic or religious service, turn into violence because of the

384
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Speaker 3: far right, and here I was on this campus. They

385
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Speaker 3: were just like, I don't know if this is a

386
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Speaker 3: safe thing to do. And she felt angry that I

387
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Speaker 3: was causing that kind of fear among students, and so

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Speaker 3: she didn't think Matthew should invite me, like she told

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Speaker 3: him not going to come if.

390
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Speaker 4: You invite this kid.

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Speaker 3: And that was where she felt like she could be powerful.

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Speaker 3: It's just like say, I'm not going to make.

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Speaker 4: A space for somebody who believes this stuff.

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Speaker 3: And so she initially stopped coming to the dinners, Like

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Speaker 3: she would pointedly come back to the dorm and like

396
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Speaker 3: walk past the table and not talk to me, and

397
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Speaker 3: it was very clear like, oh, this is just some

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Speaker 3: student who is making a big thing about not wanting

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Speaker 3: me to feel welcomed, and there's nothing I can do

400
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Speaker 3: about this.

401
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Speaker 4: And then we would go back to talking. And after

402
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Speaker 4: a few weeks or maybe a month or two, she

403
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Speaker 4: like sat down one day and was like, I am

404
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Speaker 4: going to attend these dinners because I might keep missing

405
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Speaker 4: these really nice dinners with my friends because she had

406
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Speaker 4: thought I was going to stop coming. And she found

407
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Speaker 4: herself very surprised that she that I was not like

408
00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:41,359
Speaker 4: off putting, like all of we had a lot of

409
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Speaker 4: friends in common, and she would ask about it and

410
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Speaker 4: she'd be like, yeah, yeah, like Derek doesn't talk about

411
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Speaker 4: their ideology, but like, you know, I was kindie.

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Speaker 3: I was curious, I was open to people. Like she

413
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Speaker 3: had this sort of feeling of like how you. Also,

414
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Speaker 3: most people at Shabbat dinners were not white, and that

415
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Speaker 3: I was coming, and so she had this sort of

416
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Speaker 3: feeling of like, how does this even?

417
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Speaker 4: How do you square this?

418
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Speaker 3: And so she was much more direct than most people,

419
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Speaker 3: and also felt like she was in a position, not

420
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Speaker 3: having any identity that was sort of tied up in

421
00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:14,880
Speaker 3: feeling dehumanized by my ideology that she should just all

422
00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:17,520
Speaker 3: she can do here is say something to me. And

423
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Speaker 3: so her first question was like, will you explain this

424
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Speaker 3: belief system to me? And I always would say yes

425
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Speaker 3: to that, I would never be like, no, I'll never

426
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Speaker 3: I want to explain it. And then the act of

427
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Speaker 3: explaining it to her, I sort of realized, this is

428
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Speaker 3: the first time I very thoroughly explained what I believe

429
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Speaker 3: and why to somebody who's not a journalist, to somebody

430
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Speaker 3: who's not like in a debate in front of an

431
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Speaker 3: audience with me, to somebody who's not like trying to

432
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Speaker 3: score points for their side. Like she genuinely was just

433
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Speaker 3: baffled and wanted to understand it. And her response to

434
00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:51,080
Speaker 3: that was like that I thought I believe this for

435
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Speaker 3: a bunch of facts, and she knew the facts are

436
00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:57,600
Speaker 3: just not right, but she didn't quite know how.

437
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Speaker 4: To argue them, and so her answer was like.

438
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Speaker 3: Would you open to continuing talking about this, particularly like

439
00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:06,480
Speaker 3: the supposed facts you think you have for this, and

440
00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:09,800
Speaker 3: we'll just talk? And then my response was like, you know,

441
00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:12,840
Speaker 3: I enjoyed her as a friend and wanted to like

442
00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:15,399
Speaker 3: talk into My response was, only if it's like every

443
00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:17,600
Speaker 3: five conversations, Like I don't want to just meet up

444
00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:19,960
Speaker 3: with you and talk about why nationalism constantly, and I

445
00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:21,840
Speaker 3: don't know why I would. That doesn't have fun to me.

446
00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:25,439
Speaker 3: And so we started hanging out and talking and she

447
00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:28,720
Speaker 3: got along and we would like every five conversations you

448
00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:33,200
Speaker 3: would be like, so race and crime statistics, like read these.

449
00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:41,320
Speaker 2: Papers, dude, Alison's dope. That's such a good strategy because

450
00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:44,639
Speaker 2: I've been in this position where I'm like, Okay, I

451
00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:48,479
Speaker 2: know this person isn't like believing things that are accurate

452
00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:50,879
Speaker 2: right now, but I don't. You can't just like argue

453
00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:53,159
Speaker 2: about it and that be our relationship. That's not going

454
00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:55,600
Speaker 2: to get us anywhere. I'm going to start adopting this

455
00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:57,679
Speaker 2: one in five conversations thing.

456
00:20:58,040 --> 00:20:58,920
Speaker 6: I think it's great.

457
00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:03,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was it, like every five conversations was like.

458
00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:07,720
Speaker 4: I mean we were like tally like that. It was

459
00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:10,359
Speaker 4: like we both knew when enough time had gone by.

460
00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:13,960
Speaker 3: Like I was also I survived most of this like

461
00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:17,560
Speaker 3: cognitive dissonance by being very avoidant, and people would sometimes

462
00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:19,800
Speaker 3: try to bring it up, like, you know, I don't know.

463
00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:22,040
Speaker 3: I think it was Moshit actually, who was like when

464
00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:24,159
Speaker 3: I first got back to campus, was like, so, we're like,

465
00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:26,640
Speaker 3: are you a Nazi? And I was like, no, I'm

466
00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,679
Speaker 3: not a Nazi because that was true. That's a very

467
00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:31,200
Speaker 3: specific thing. I didn't like Hitler.

468
00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:32,040
Speaker 4: I didn't like that stuff.

469
00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:34,080
Speaker 3: And I was like, and I'm also not anti Semitic,

470
00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:36,040
Speaker 3: and he was like really, and I was like yeah.

471
00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:38,439
Speaker 3: And then I changed the subject and I would be

472
00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:41,439
Speaker 3: and I would just like say what was true. And

473
00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:43,160
Speaker 3: then the second it was going to get into something

474
00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:45,639
Speaker 3: where I was like, I don't know how to explain this.

475
00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:47,400
Speaker 3: You're not gonna like it, it's not going to sound

476
00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:49,040
Speaker 3: good coming out of my mouth, I would just be like,

477
00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:52,600
Speaker 3: I need to talk about something else. And so Alice

478
00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:55,440
Speaker 3: and became a person who was like not willing to

479
00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,280
Speaker 3: tolerate that. She it was very clear that we were

480
00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:01,200
Speaker 3: talking in good faith in that she was genuinely trying

481
00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:04,879
Speaker 3: to understand me. But the other way was also true

482
00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:08,119
Speaker 3: that I was genuinely engaging when she would bring it up.

483
00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:11,600
Speaker 3: Like I she was clear that if I tried to say, like,

484
00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:13,120
Speaker 3: I'm not going to talk about this with you, can't

485
00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:14,640
Speaker 3: we just talk about nice things, You'd be like, no,

486
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:16,960
Speaker 3: I'm not going to hang out with a white nationalist

487
00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:20,479
Speaker 3: who refuses to acknowledge it. Like you know, I know

488
00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:24,000
Speaker 3: you're a nice, kind person, and like you know you're

489
00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:26,320
Speaker 3: harming people I care about, and like the least you

490
00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:29,160
Speaker 3: can do is talk about it, right, and like that

491
00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:32,080
Speaker 3: was the thing that felt like in good faith.

492
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:36,919
Speaker 2: She intuitively, it seems, did something that I think is

493
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,680
Speaker 2: very smart, and we have heard about a lot, which

494
00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:43,560
Speaker 2: is instead of coming out the gate attacking, just asking

495
00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:47,639
Speaker 2: questions and getting genuinely curious and having the person think

496
00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:50,639
Speaker 2: about it in good faith and like have an actual

497
00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:53,119
Speaker 2: discussion about it. I've also over the years gone to

498
00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:55,760
Speaker 2: a number of anti racist things, and that's one of

499
00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:57,679
Speaker 2: the things they talk about there as well, is like

500
00:22:57,720 --> 00:22:58,880
Speaker 2: in White People for Black.

501
00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:00,359
Speaker 5: Life, where white people are supposed to be talking other

502
00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:00,800
Speaker 5: white people.

503
00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:04,639
Speaker 2: Basically the getting curious and asking questions trying to understand

504
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:07,800
Speaker 2: so that it can lead the way to more questions

505
00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:11,280
Speaker 2: and to maybe some interrogation, because no one is going

506
00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:15,159
Speaker 2: to be responsive to you're a fucking racist. Fuck you, Like,

507
00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:16,800
Speaker 2: it's not going to get them to ask any more

508
00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:19,760
Speaker 2: questions necessarily. It's generally the conventional with that.

509
00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:22,879
Speaker 6: You're in a fucking cult. Wait open your eyes. You know,

510
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:24,400
Speaker 6: it never works that way.

511
00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:26,480
Speaker 2: But I of course understand why people feel that way

512
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:27,760
Speaker 2: and why they react that, of.

513
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:31,600
Speaker 1: Course, And I can understand why somebody would be yeah, if.

514
00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:33,320
Speaker 2: You're in a cult, yeah, yeah, what the fuck is

515
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:34,040
Speaker 2: wrong with you?

516
00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:35,919
Speaker 1: You're going to get someone killed? Like, like, I can

517
00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:37,560
Speaker 1: see where somebody would be very frantic.

518
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:38,560
Speaker 2: Totally yeah.

519
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:40,800
Speaker 3: I look back on it, and I'm like, so the

520
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:42,919
Speaker 3: profound thing in my life was realizing how they were

521
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:46,199
Speaker 3: both essential. Like, right, It's true that people when I

522
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:48,040
Speaker 3: was a kid saying oh, you're a fucking racist or

523
00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:50,720
Speaker 3: like that didn't that just made me more committed.

524
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,160
Speaker 4: But it wasn't them making me. I was just more committed.

525
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:53,800
Speaker 1: I just was.

526
00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:57,159
Speaker 3: That was the world. But people I cared about saying like,

527
00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:01,680
Speaker 3: you're so stupid to believe that was like, I think

528
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,879
Speaker 3: you're wrong. However, I know you were I like you,

529
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:06,679
Speaker 3: I know you, I know you're smart. Like there was

530
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:09,560
Speaker 3: a disconcerting thing, and people doing that was essential. It

531
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:12,280
Speaker 3: wasn't like every person I knew who said like this

532
00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:14,160
Speaker 3: is horrible, I hate this was like.

533
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:15,359
Speaker 4: Oh no, counter productive.

534
00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:17,840
Speaker 3: Those were the things that made me willing to like

535
00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:19,920
Speaker 3: go to the dinners and have the Like my question

536
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:22,520
Speaker 3: Dallas and back was like, I think there's got to

537
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:25,000
Speaker 3: be a misunderstanding here, because I don't see myself as

538
00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:27,920
Speaker 3: like so scary and hateful and harming people. There has

539
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,720
Speaker 3: to be miss what's the misunderstanding? Was my question back,

540
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:33,760
Speaker 3: And that's what we were talking. And then you know,

541
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:38,360
Speaker 3: to your point about curiosity. She made me recognize that

542
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:43,320
Speaker 3: I had never explained it to somebody who genuinely got

543
00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:46,240
Speaker 3: to where they understood it. Like she could argue white

544
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 3: nationalists arguments to me and sound like a white nationalist

545
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,320
Speaker 3: and then be like, and this is repulsive, this is wrong,

546
00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:56,200
Speaker 3: this is stupid, is incorrect, this is dumb. I've done

547
00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:57,639
Speaker 3: a lot of reading now and I can tell you

548
00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:00,960
Speaker 3: exactly why all your facts are wrong. But she could

549
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:04,280
Speaker 3: explain exactly what I thought was right, and like that

550
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,800
Speaker 3: was so disconcerting. The idea that she that I could

551
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:09,600
Speaker 3: not even for a second say you don't get it,

552
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 3: Like you don't understand you have a stereotype. You think

553
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:14,240
Speaker 3: I hate Field, you think my family hates but you

554
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,680
Speaker 3: think like I could like, no, okay, yes, you understand

555
00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:18,640
Speaker 3: everything about what we.

556
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 4: Believe, very clearly of it.

557
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:25,640
Speaker 3: And at this point we're talking about something else, maybe

558
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,920
Speaker 3: like okay, like that you understand, I can't say that anymore.

559
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:32,720
Speaker 2: The thing about both being necessary is it's super interesting.

560
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:36,359
Speaker 2: That's not something we've heard really much here yet. This

561
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:38,919
Speaker 2: idea that like someone is saying something about you that

562
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:42,120
Speaker 2: doesn't connect with how you see yourself and goes against

563
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 2: your self identity. I can see how that would like

564
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:48,200
Speaker 2: start poking holes. We all see ourselves as good people,

565
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:50,639
Speaker 2: and if someone is now saying we're not, then well

566
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:51,399
Speaker 2: that's weird.

567
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:53,520
Speaker 3: And I think it would say Like a phrase that

568
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,760
Speaker 3: Alison used once that I stuck with is the idea

569
00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 3: that they're a specific person, Like it's if I look

570
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:02,120
Speaker 3: at like I hate Meily got that. I could say

571
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:05,399
Speaker 3: they're just an anonymous crowd. I could assume the worst.

572
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:07,119
Speaker 3: I could assume they hadn't thought about it.

573
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:08,360
Speaker 4: They didn't like whatever.

574
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:12,920
Speaker 3: But even the people on campus who were you saying,

575
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 3: you know, something that I thought was just like off

576
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:17,879
Speaker 3: putting mean, And even if I thought that deeply misunderstanding me,

577
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 3: they don't get it. They were still a specific person

578
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 3: like I knew a close friend of theirs, or my

579
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:27,120
Speaker 3: roommate had lunch with them yesterday, or I was talking

580
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:28,800
Speaker 3: to Alison and I knew that like Alison was like

581
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,480
Speaker 3: actually close friends with that person, or like it was

582
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:35,160
Speaker 3: this integrated scene, which is I think about as close

583
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 3: as a definition to like community as I can get

584
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:41,200
Speaker 3: the idea that these people all have connections to each other.

585
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:44,880
Speaker 3: They they're not people who I consider my friends, are

586
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 3: not people who I think do understand me, but they're

587
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,240
Speaker 3: people who matter when they say something about me that's

588
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:52,840
Speaker 3: so discordant from who I think I am, and it

589
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:55,879
Speaker 3: matters to me to think about it, address it, understand it.

590
00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:56,479
Speaker 4: At least.

591
00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,959
Speaker 1: It's so interesting that you said that you felt of

592
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,919
Speaker 1: avoidant because I would have never come back to school,

593
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 1: you know, like once that yeah, he came up, like

594
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 1: like I just would have been like by like you

595
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:10,639
Speaker 1: are very willing to get in the mix and do

596
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:14,200
Speaker 1: the things, so that's intriguing. Thank goodness, yeah, thank god.

597
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't know.

598
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 3: I was a weird mix. I was deeply, deeply avoidant,

599
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,080
Speaker 3: and like maybe that's part of what made me able

600
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 3: to do it, because like I knew I could come

601
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:24,640
Speaker 3: back to the campus, and I knew I was so

602
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:28,720
Speaker 3: good at not getting into confrontational conversations with people, right,

603
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:32,119
Speaker 3: Like I couldn't even imagine myself as the kind of

604
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,960
Speaker 3: person some of my family like saw themselves as of like, oh,

605
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 3: just always getting in people's faces and arguing and debating,

606
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:41,560
Speaker 3: and I was like my orientation was always much more

607
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:44,880
Speaker 3: like I want to understand what you think, like who

608
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 3: are you like that?

609
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:49,000
Speaker 4: I want to learn about that, and I knew.

610
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 3: Like I think on a base level. Interestingly, nobody's ever

611
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:54,160
Speaker 3: fully said it that way. Like people have been like,

612
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 3: you know, you came back to college, and people don't

613
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:58,160
Speaker 3: typically emphasize it. They're like, yeah, whatever, you come back

614
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,360
Speaker 3: to college. And I think it was that if I'm

615
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 3: like answering how you said that as a question, it

616
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:06,879
Speaker 3: would be like I wanted to learn about people and

617
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 3: I knew them, and I knew if I didn't come back,

618
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 3: I would never learn anything.

619
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:11,640
Speaker 4: I would never understand it.

620
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,120
Speaker 5: Wow, curiosity win.

621
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:15,680
Speaker 6: Curiosity wins again.

622
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 4: Like I didn't think I was gonna pully fine.

623
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 3: I was just like, yeah, feel so conflicting, even on

624
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,280
Speaker 3: the very levels, like I had dated Zoe, and I

625
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 3: felt horrible about the fact that I was, like, I

626
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 3: am lying to you by not telling you this. But

627
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:33,119
Speaker 3: it was like we structured in a way, and they

628
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:35,199
Speaker 3: thought it was they knew something weird was happening.

629
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:37,440
Speaker 4: They were like, okay, like it was like the end.

630
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:38,960
Speaker 3: Of the semester, and tell you what should we date?

631
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 3: And my proposal was like, how about we did forb

632
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 3: likely the last month of the semester, and then I'm

633
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 3: gonna go study abroad.

634
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:46,200
Speaker 4: In America, come back and we'll break up and it

635
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:48,480
Speaker 4: won't be long distance. It'll be done and friends, it'll

636
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 4: be good.

637
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 3: It was all this like boundary structure stuff because I

638
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 3: was like, I don't know, just leaning into the feelings

639
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 3: of it that we both had, but like I don't,

640
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 3: I don't can't.

641
00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 4: Tell you, and I also don't want to hurt you,

642
00:28:58,480 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 4: and I didn't know what to do.

643
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 3: And then when they did find out, they felt so

644
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 3: horrified and betrayed and thrown and like how could you

645
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,720
Speaker 3: have lied to me like this? And it was like

646
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 3: just a specific moment of being talking to a specific

647
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:14,960
Speaker 3: person and feeling like I cannot be a person who

648
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 3: does that, Like I cannot care about somebody genuinely and

649
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:21,320
Speaker 3: then be someone who just intrinsically is going to hurt them,

650
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:23,360
Speaker 3: Like I don't know how that can be true.

651
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 4: And if it felt like if I ran away, if

652
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 4: I didn't come back to the campus, I just would

653
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:28,920
Speaker 4: be it would just be like that's who I am.

654
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 2: I guess, like right, yeah, if it were me, I

655
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 2: would be like I need to go like clear my name.

656
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:35,560
Speaker 5: I need people to know who I really am.

657
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 4: You know, yes that.

658
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 3: I need to be consistent with myself and I have

659
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 3: to go back to these people to have that be true.

660
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 2: So what was the tipping point where you are like

661
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 2: I actually have to let go of this ideology.

662
00:29:55,400 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 3: Uh, it's strange, Like there's not a shocking like I've done,

663
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 3: I have to do it moment.

664
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 4: Really.

665
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:04,600
Speaker 3: The one that's closest to that is like when I

666
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 3: publicly wrote a letter condemning it, But at that point

667
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 3: I was way past believing in it.

668
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 4: It had been like.

669
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 3: At least six months or something since I had been like, yes,

670
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 3: I believe this ideology has like facts or is somehow

671
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 3: moral or anything like really redeemable about it. And that

672
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 3: was so disconcerting because I still didn't want to condemn it,

673
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:28,360
Speaker 3: and I had to look at it and be like, well,

674
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 3: it's because I don't want to lose my family. I

675
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 3: don't want to lose my sense of connection and trust

676
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 3: and all these people who care about me, and apparently

677
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:41,240
Speaker 3: all that stuff about being rational and having facts was

678
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 3: just not real. And I had to deal with that

679
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:48,479
Speaker 3: feeling of like, wow, okay, I believed something that everybody

680
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:51,440
Speaker 3: told me was wrong because I wanted to be trusted

681
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 3: and cared for and loyal and proud of my family

682
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 3: and them to be proud of me, and not just

683
00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 3: my family, but this broader network of like hundreds and

684
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:01,120
Speaker 3: thousands of people who like I would meet and were

685
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 3: so so excited to.

686
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 4: Meet me, and I was so excited to meet them,

687
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 4: and like that.

688
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 3: Feeling of like I'm going to betray them all was

689
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 3: the thing I didn't want to do. I'm going to

690
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 3: break their hearts, I'm going to make them feel so alienated.

691
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 4: I'm going to be another person telling them they're.

692
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:16,880
Speaker 3: Bad and I want to be like, I know you,

693
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 3: you're you're a kind person, like you made me cupcakes

694
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:21,360
Speaker 3: last week. Like I don't want to tell you you're

695
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 3: a horrible person. I just like you have to stop this.

696
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:26,760
Speaker 3: Like it was that sort of disconcerting feeling that made

697
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 3: me feel like I I just had to reassess, like

698
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 3: how I even thought of myself at that point. It

699
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:35,320
Speaker 3: was like, wow, I'm just the person who cares about people.

700
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 3: I guess like I think I'm rational and smart, but

701
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 3: like at the base, it's like I want to be

702
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 3: connected to people. And that was hard, And it was

703
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 3: like that happened a lot of steps at a time,

704
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:48,080
Speaker 3: you know, all the feelings debates with Ali, sudden feelings

705
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 3: of like I'm alienating my friends, I don't want to

706
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 3: be realizing there's no good arguments for it, and like

707
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 3: that would always take weeks or months till I really

708
00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 3: sit with and absorb and be like, yes, I believe

709
00:31:58,640 --> 00:31:59,280
Speaker 3: that that's true.

710
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:00,520
Speaker 4: There's no good art that's here.

711
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:03,239
Speaker 3: And then it was really only in the end when

712
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:06,200
Speaker 3: I announced I am not this anymore that I can

713
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 3: I felt very clear, like yes, I've done it. I

714
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 3: am very clear one side or the other.

715
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 1: What does it feel like to just set what for you?

716
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 1: I guess to sit with a new thought and new

717
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:21,960
Speaker 1: information and absorb it, Like what what is that feeling.

718
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 7: Like like at the time, Like yeah, they I think

719
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:30,000
Speaker 7: they almost felt good actually, because I had this like

720
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:35,200
Speaker 7: sense about myself that facts and arguments are you know,

721
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:36,440
Speaker 7: better or worse.

722
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 3: Some have better or worse evidence, like there's it's not

723
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 3: just the case that you know, if you if you

724
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 3: have an argument like that's true, you fight it as

725
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:46,480
Speaker 3: hard as I was, like, you know, I can be wrong,

726
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:48,520
Speaker 3: Like I was open to that idea, and I had

727
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 3: I knew what it was like to be wrong about

728
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 3: like history facts or about like like I had almost

729
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 3: on my own like abandoned Holocaust denial, which is such

730
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 3: a major thing within right nowationalism, because I was studying

731
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 3: history and this is one of the most well documented

732
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:08,600
Speaker 3: atrocities in history, and I was just like I always

733
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 3: had sort of a problem with the way white nationalists

734
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 3: did Holocaust denial because they don't just say nobody died.

735
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 3: They do this debate about how many people were like

736
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 3: killed versus just died of malnutrition, and it was mislabeled,

737
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 3: and it's like the way people talk about like.

738
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:26,000
Speaker 4: COVID deaths, where it just felt.

739
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:29,240
Speaker 3: Like this is disgusting, Like you're talking about so much

740
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:32,680
Speaker 3: horror here, Like the fundamental problem is the prison camps,

741
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 3: Like what are you talking about?

742
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 4: Like that was like a.

743
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 3: Teenager feeling I had, And so I was able to

744
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,680
Speaker 3: like look at documents because like I had professors who

745
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 3: could just give me, you know, better books about the

746
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 3: Holocaust and be like, okay, great Holocaust, and so a

747
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 3: lot of things I think felt like that. It was

748
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:51,320
Speaker 3: like if you disproved my argument and I knew you

749
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 3: weren't going to, like, I don't know, shame me in

750
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 3: front of everybody, I think that's a separate thing. If

751
00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 3: you're going to like dunk me and everybody's going to

752
00:33:58,360 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 3: be like, oh my god, you're such an idiot or

753
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,280
Speaker 3: something like that, that would be horrible for a different reason.

754
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:04,720
Speaker 3: But if like I trust you, and I know you

755
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:05,960
Speaker 3: care about me, and I care about you, and I

756
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 3: would like to, you know, talk to you about stuff,

757
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 3: and then you find a thing that I think is

758
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:13,439
Speaker 3: true that actually we can talk about improve is not true,

759
00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:14,799
Speaker 3: And I could show you the numbers and we can

760
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:16,719
Speaker 3: think about it. Like there was a feeling of like, oh,

761
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:19,200
Speaker 3: this is exciting, especially early on where I was like,

762
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:22,200
Speaker 3: oh wow, you know, I'm My first thought was I'm

763
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:25,000
Speaker 3: becoming a better white nationalist because they have a bad

764
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:26,719
Speaker 3: argument that they're fundamentally using.

765
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:27,840
Speaker 4: I need to let them know.

766
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 2: You know, like after you wrote this letter, what was

767
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:33,000
Speaker 2: the response like in your family?

768
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 4: It was really devastating my family. I didn't warn them.

769
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:40,399
Speaker 3: And so they knew I had withdrawn, Like they knew

770
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:42,919
Speaker 3: I hadn't done the radio show, and like a year,

771
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 3: they knew I hadn't.

772
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,000
Speaker 4: Posted on my dad's website.

773
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:49,799
Speaker 3: They knew I wasn't like going to be coming to

774
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 3: the next conference they hosted, Like they knew I was

775
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 3: just withdrawing. And they didn't know quite why they knew

776
00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 3: the radio they canceled the radio show because I just

777
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:02,319
Speaker 3: didn't do it anymore. And so when I published this letter,

778
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 3: I had been home for the weekend before, Like New

779
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:07,920
Speaker 3: College was on the West coast, and I grew up

780
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:10,080
Speaker 3: on the East coast, and so I had been home

781
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:13,800
Speaker 3: helping my mother remodel because she was always doing tinkering

782
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:14,760
Speaker 3: stuff on the house.

783
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 4: And I helped her with that. I talked to my dad,

784
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:18,719
Speaker 4: we went to eat, and.

785
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:20,880
Speaker 3: I just couldn't tell them I was going to do this.

786
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:23,800
Speaker 3: I had intended to, and I just you know, to

787
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 3: the point about avoidance. And I just ended up sending.

788
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:30,160
Speaker 4: The letter from there because I noticed myself having doubts.

789
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:32,920
Speaker 3: I was like, oh, I like being here, like hanging out,

790
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:35,239
Speaker 3: like talking. I don't want to do this. And I

791
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:36,960
Speaker 3: was like, well, that is not going to work, and

792
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:40,359
Speaker 3: so I just emailed it from their living room when

793
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:42,880
Speaker 3: they were like my mom was getting dinner ready, and

794
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:43,600
Speaker 3: so I knew.

795
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 4: Okay, it's done.

796
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 3: And then the next morning I went back. I was

797
00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:50,440
Speaker 3: house sitting with some professors. My mother, like I remember

798
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:51,920
Speaker 3: her offering. She was like, you know, I could take

799
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:53,840
Speaker 3: off work and we could like spend the week doing

800
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:55,000
Speaker 3: you know, house remodeling.

801
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 4: And I'm like, I've said this letter.

802
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:58,359
Speaker 3: I got to go and then say that, but like

803
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:01,439
Speaker 3: that feeling of like this is this is the end.

804
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:05,000
Speaker 3: And so that week they my dad's first call was

805
00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:07,840
Speaker 3: to say like, oh, you've been hacked. Nobody could you

806
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:09,799
Speaker 3: didn't write this letter, of course, and I said like, yeah,

807
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 3: I did.

808
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:13,800
Speaker 4: And then he was horrified and for a while.

809
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:16,080
Speaker 3: He told me he wished I had never been born

810
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 3: to cause him so much, and then he sort of

811
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:21,760
Speaker 3: took that back and said, I apologize, I don't mean that.

812
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 4: But it's horrible.

813
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:26,840
Speaker 3: And basically, over a week of really really intense conversations,

814
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 3: like he committed we should be able to talk, and

815
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:31,840
Speaker 3: then after that we were able to sort of text

816
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 3: them things. But it's always been tense, it's always been sporadic,

817
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:36,239
Speaker 3: it's always been complicated.

818
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:41,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, that pull between your former community and your new

819
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 2: community and not wanting to betray them both. You know,

820
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:45,840
Speaker 2: we see it in people coming out of cults all

821
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 2: the time. I mean, that's one of the most difficult

822
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 2: things for people, is feeling like they are betraying their

823
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:53,959
Speaker 2: family and they are hurting a community that they had

824
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:56,719
Speaker 2: loved so much. It is a really brave thing to do.

825
00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:00,359
Speaker 2: I think people maybe underestimate how painful that disconnection can be.

826
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:02,879
Speaker 2: And it's just such a major life change. And we're

827
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:05,680
Speaker 2: so wired to like want our loved ones to love us,

828
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:08,760
Speaker 2: you know, so to be able to like disconnect because

829
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:10,759
Speaker 2: of something that we know is right, I think it's

830
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 2: just like unimaginably difficult.

831
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:15,319
Speaker 5: I think it's great that you were brave enough to

832
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:15,600
Speaker 5: do that.

833
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:19,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I guess also in this conversation, just

834
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:21,279
Speaker 3: even talking about the logistics of it, like I had

835
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:23,719
Speaker 3: been accepted into grad school.

836
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:26,560
Speaker 4: Ahead of time. I knew that I had this stipend.

837
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:29,000
Speaker 3: It was in Michigan, and I had grown up at Florida,

838
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 3: so it felt like the other side of the world.

839
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:33,200
Speaker 4: I knew. I was like, my family knew I'm going

840
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:33,600
Speaker 4: to go there.

841
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:35,480
Speaker 3: They were like weird and disappointed about it.

842
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:37,760
Speaker 4: They were like, so are you ever going to like lead.

843
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:40,480
Speaker 3: The movement before they knew I was going to condemn it,

844
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:42,839
Speaker 3: And I knew where I was going, and I knew

845
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:43,879
Speaker 3: I had like a job there.

846
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:45,040
Speaker 4: I was going to work at a publisher.

847
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,320
Speaker 3: Had these like things in place that I think probably

848
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:49,560
Speaker 3: are important to.

849
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:50,120
Speaker 4: Even talk about.

850
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:53,000
Speaker 3: Like the logistics of it was like the feeling of

851
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 3: walking into a void felt just like I mean, it

852
00:37:57,160 --> 00:37:58,080
Speaker 3: kind of felt like death.

853
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:00,759
Speaker 4: It felt like I was like I lost like who

854
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:03,080
Speaker 4: I was for a moment. It was like I had this.

855
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 3: Feeling of like I've lost basically every connection that I've

856
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:10,480
Speaker 3: had up until this moment in my life. And it

857
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:12,560
Speaker 3: wasn't like I was going to something like, oh, now

858
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:13,880
Speaker 3: I'm going to go do anti racism.

859
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:15,840
Speaker 4: It was like people are not going to trust me,

860
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 4: and nobody's going to be there.

861
00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 3: On the other side, I was worried I wouldn't even

862
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:22,719
Speaker 3: be able to just like have a normal job or

863
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 3: like do just like life because of this background and

864
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 3: this experience, and.

865
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:29,680
Speaker 4: Nobody like worried people wouldn't even believe.

866
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:31,880
Speaker 3: It because it seemed I don't know if people it

867
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:34,440
Speaker 3: does seem like a crazy, wild thing to do, but

868
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:37,799
Speaker 3: I knew my own experience, and I guess I just

869
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 3: think the logistics of like I know where I'm physically

870
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:41,960
Speaker 3: going to be, I can imagine what I'm physically going

871
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 3: to do. I know I'm not going to just like

872
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 3: starve to death or be on the street immediately. It's

873
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:48,960
Speaker 3: going to be an emotional death. I'm going to feel

874
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:51,279
Speaker 3: like I've lost my identity. I'm going to feel like

875
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 3: my family has abandoned me, and I don't know if

876
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:57,120
Speaker 3: I can ever have another friend again. But the opposite

877
00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 3: of it, at that point felt like I cannot be

878
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:03,280
Speaker 3: I can't do more mental damage to myself. I cannot

879
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 3: continue claiming to be somebody who causes fear and terror

880
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 3: to people I love, Like I could not do that,

881
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:13,759
Speaker 3: and so that was the part of it that felt like,

882
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:15,880
Speaker 3: I that seems.

883
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:17,800
Speaker 4: Horrible, and yet there's the other thing is much.

884
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:19,880
Speaker 3: More horrible and much more wrong and much less like

885
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:20,840
Speaker 3: acceptable to me.

886
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:26,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, what advice would you give to people who have

887
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:31,640
Speaker 2: maybe someone like you in their life or the former you?

888
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:34,880
Speaker 2: The former you? What's your perspective on how community you

889
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:36,920
Speaker 2: should handle people with a porrent belief?

890
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:37,759
Speaker 4: Yeah?

891
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:40,560
Speaker 3: One thing I think is like the answer to like

892
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 3: the private conversations, because those are the ones that felt

893
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 3: to me like they had the big impact. And immediately

894
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:49,399
Speaker 3: after I was not as magnanimous as I am now.

895
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:51,920
Speaker 3: Immediately after all the people who had like you know,

896
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:54,480
Speaker 3: said cursed me out on the forum or middle fingered me,

897
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:56,920
Speaker 3: I was like, all of you didn't tell all of

898
00:39:56,960 --> 00:39:58,960
Speaker 3: you pushed me away, And I was like, it took

899
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 3: a couple of years to be like, well, actually I

900
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:03,880
Speaker 3: think that was necessary context. And so I feel like

901
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:07,399
Speaker 3: most people fall into that category of like speak out

902
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:10,399
Speaker 3: for your values and sort of assert did I want

903
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:12,879
Speaker 3: this to be a community where people, you know, don't

904
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:16,240
Speaker 3: feel marginalized and afraid, and if you are making somebody

905
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:18,600
Speaker 3: I care about feel marginalized and afraid. I don't want

906
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:21,920
Speaker 3: you here, Like saying that I don't think is like counterproductive.

907
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:24,320
Speaker 3: I think it's a real foundation, and it's also something

908
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 3: that like most of us can do most of the time.

909
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:30,560
Speaker 3: But then Matthew made a choice that was wild and

910
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:33,399
Speaker 3: I think well thought through and calculated that He was like,

911
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 3: you know, I am not somebody who's just giving you

912
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:40,000
Speaker 3: comfort because you were gonna know, like we've talked about

913
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:42,279
Speaker 3: it over the years. I now go to his house

914
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:44,840
Speaker 3: for dinner regularly or just like old friends now. But

915
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:50,360
Speaker 3: like he knew that my movement was so deeply antisemitic,

916
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:54,120
Speaker 3: and that it made him and his community feel so

917
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:57,080
Speaker 3: alienated and ostracized and afraid and was responsible for so

918
00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:00,920
Speaker 3: much wrong that inviting me was gonna be impactful even

919
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:04,120
Speaker 3: if I wasn't personally anti semitic. He knew that that

920
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:06,319
Speaker 3: feeling of conflict was going to be there, and he

921
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:07,000
Speaker 3: wasn't just going to be.

922
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:07,880
Speaker 4: Making a space for me.

923
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:10,960
Speaker 3: And then Alison had more of the problem of like,

924
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:13,759
Speaker 3: if I hang out with you and I don't bring

925
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:17,759
Speaker 3: anything up, I think I am just making you feel comfortable.

926
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 4: I'm just trying to make your life at this college

927
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 4: a little.

928
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:22,520
Speaker 3: Easier so that when you leave, you know, you could,

929
00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:25,160
Speaker 3: you know, have finished and had a good time sort of.

930
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:27,480
Speaker 4: And she didn't want to be that person.

931
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:30,200
Speaker 3: And I think that's a place where it starts becoming

932
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:31,799
Speaker 3: more of like how do I choose what I'm going

933
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:35,560
Speaker 3: to do in this circumstance. And she had me coming

934
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:38,400
Speaker 3: over to her dorm through no fault of her own,

935
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 3: and tried to avoid me at first, tried to make

936
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:42,719
Speaker 3: me feel uncomfortable like the other people, and then sort

937
00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 3: of recognized that we had this personal connection and nobody

938
00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:49,560
Speaker 3: else on campus was actually talking about my beliefs with me.

939
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:53,239
Speaker 3: They were just either ignoring it or being outspoken against me,

940
00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:56,480
Speaker 3: And so she knew that I was like.

941
00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:58,560
Speaker 4: Safe, which is something I try to emphasize.

942
00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:01,879
Speaker 3: I think there's this reduction of my story that because

943
00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:04,280
Speaker 3: I starteds been like out for a while, people sometimes

944
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:07,080
Speaker 3: like retell it in weird ways, and there's this like

945
00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:10,040
Speaker 3: you should just have dinner with Nazis kind of version

946
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:14,320
Speaker 3: that is just crazy, Like the idea the first question

947
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:16,480
Speaker 3: is like are you safe? It should always be I

948
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:18,920
Speaker 3: don't understand how people don't quite think that through like

949
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:21,399
Speaker 3: the specifics of my case is like, yes, a bunch

950
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:22,600
Speaker 3: of people about me, We have.

951
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:23,840
Speaker 4: A bunch of common friends.

952
00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:28,360
Speaker 3: I was genuinely of like benevolent, like super naive person

953
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:31,279
Speaker 3: who rationalized the way and a lot of like a

954
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 3: lot of like contradictory things. But she knew that I

955
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 3: was like personally, say, if you knew the movement I

956
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:40,160
Speaker 3: represented was dangerous, she knew maybe my family were connected

957
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:42,760
Speaker 3: to dangerous things, but like talking to me was safe,

958
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 3: hanging out with me was safe. And that kind of

959
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:47,120
Speaker 3: question was the first one, and then after that was

960
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:50,440
Speaker 3: like just asking questions and seeing where she went, and

961
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:53,120
Speaker 3: so finding out that we were in good faith, like

962
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:56,400
Speaker 3: knowing that I was willing to trust her and that

963
00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 3: she was willing to trust me, and like going from there.

964
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:02,320
Speaker 3: I don't think she ever was committed to the idea

965
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 3: that like I'm going to change this person's mind, this

966
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 3: is how it's going to work, Like Matthew was not

967
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:09,239
Speaker 3: committed to the idea of via he he invites me to.

968
00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:11,680
Speaker 4: Shabot dinners, I'm going to just abandon white nationalism.

969
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 3: Like nobody at any point was like I see exactly

970
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:15,440
Speaker 3: where this is going.

971
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:18,040
Speaker 4: They were all very open to the idea.

972
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:21,080
Speaker 3: That the likely thing would happen is that I will

973
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:24,040
Speaker 3: continue believing some version of what I've always believed in

974
00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:28,640
Speaker 3: my family believes, and something might have happened along the way.

975
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:30,279
Speaker 4: Who knows what it's going to be.

976
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:33,359
Speaker 3: But it's a sort of case by case, day by day,

977
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 3: conversation by conversation, focus on the fact that we have

978
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:40,960
Speaker 3: a relationship and that means something, and so I'm going

979
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:43,400
Speaker 3: to show up tomorrow, if you show up tomorrow, and

980
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:46,319
Speaker 3: we'll see where this goes. Like I think, like the

981
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:50,719
Speaker 3: contingency of it, like nothing ever felt obvious. I never

982
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:53,640
Speaker 3: expected I was going to condemn my beliefs until like

983
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:57,440
Speaker 3: right like shortly before I did. Like, I didn't expect

984
00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:00,200
Speaker 3: I was going to feel like I was proven wrong.

985
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 3: I didn't expect that I was going to feel so

986
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:06,080
Speaker 3: challenged by the close sentiment relationships I got that I

987
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:08,480
Speaker 3: was going to feel like I didn't want to be

988
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:10,360
Speaker 3: the person I was, Like I thought I was proud

989
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:12,480
Speaker 3: of who I was before that. So all these things

990
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:15,640
Speaker 3: happened along the way that nobody thought it was inevitable,

991
00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:18,799
Speaker 3: and nobody was committed to one outcome along the way.

992
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:20,200
Speaker 4: It was just decisions.

993
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:23,480
Speaker 2: An interesting takeaway from your story I feel like is

994
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:27,799
Speaker 2: that different people have different roles in the process of

995
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:31,320
Speaker 2: maybe helping someone deconstruct or not, but maybe an attempt

996
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:33,640
Speaker 2: at it. Like the thing we focus on the most

997
00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:37,600
Speaker 2: here talking typically about colts is staying connected to the

998
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:40,800
Speaker 2: loved ones. Because there's so much so frequently their family ties,

999
00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:43,960
Speaker 2: it generally seems more important to keep them in your

1000
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:45,960
Speaker 2: life so that they know you're there when they're ready.

1001
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:48,200
Speaker 5: But it is interesting.

1002
00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:50,240
Speaker 2: It was interesting to read in your book, like different

1003
00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:52,920
Speaker 2: people in the forum, even like had such wildly different

1004
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:56,799
Speaker 2: views and like they're all right in different ways, and

1005
00:44:57,120 --> 00:44:59,759
Speaker 2: there really isn't I guess a perfect answer, but it

1006
00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:03,480
Speaker 2: does does seem like good faith conversation is just a

1007
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:07,120
Speaker 2: productive thing to try to strive for for the people

1008
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:08,000
Speaker 2: for whom that's right.

1009
00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:10,560
Speaker 4: So I felt like a heuristic. I kind of like

1010
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:11,960
Speaker 4: it became my hero.

1011
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:14,960
Speaker 3: It was the thing that sort of solved my like

1012
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:17,239
Speaker 3: helped solve my feeling of like I don't know how

1013
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:19,480
Speaker 3: to trust myself, which was like the first couple of

1014
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:22,040
Speaker 3: years that I would like to run by you because

1015
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 3: I'm curious how like you think about it in like

1016
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:26,200
Speaker 3: that in like a cult context because I also we

1017
00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:27,520
Speaker 3: didn't talk too explicitly about it.

1018
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:28,880
Speaker 4: People ask me all the time do I feel like

1019
00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:30,200
Speaker 4: I grew up in a cult? And I'm like, I'm

1020
00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:32,320
Speaker 4: not positive. I don't know.

1021
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:35,799
Speaker 3: It feels more like a fundamentalist religion, I guess, but

1022
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:36,759
Speaker 3: that is also.

1023
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 4: And so I'm not. I just don't really know. Ever

1024
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:43,719
Speaker 4: for sure.

1025
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:47,239
Speaker 3: Feels when you don't believe something and everybody you love

1026
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:47,920
Speaker 3: abandons you.

1027
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:50,320
Speaker 4: Feels like a cult in me, but I don't.

1028
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:54,759
Speaker 3: But the heuristic that I landed on was that as

1029
00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:56,880
Speaker 3: long as I'm like thinking about myself, like what had

1030
00:45:56,880 --> 00:45:59,799
Speaker 3: happened at the college, and what kept going for was

1031
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 3: this feeling like my test could be is this a

1032
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:06,920
Speaker 3: belief or an action that is trying to find ways

1033
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:09,800
Speaker 3: to be connected to more people who I don't.

1034
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:10,400
Speaker 4: Feel connected to?

1035
00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:14,120
Speaker 3: Is it a way to open myself up to people

1036
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:17,120
Speaker 3: who I, like, you know, currently feel like stand offish

1037
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:19,920
Speaker 3: too or close to like, even if it's just mentally

1038
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:21,840
Speaker 3: it's just like I don't know people in some other countries,

1039
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:24,600
Speaker 3: just the idea like how am I connected to that person?

1040
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:27,440
Speaker 3: And does this forward whatever I'm saying or doing right

1041
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:30,759
Speaker 3: now forward that feeling that was what really.

1042
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:32,240
Speaker 4: Helped all along at New College.

1043
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:33,680
Speaker 3: It was the sense that I didn't want to be

1044
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:37,319
Speaker 3: closed to people, and opening myself to people and like

1045
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:40,920
Speaker 3: responding when they were open to me forced me to

1046
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:43,600
Speaker 3: sort of challenge things and think through things, and that

1047
00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:46,080
Speaker 3: was something I had sort of landed on as like

1048
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 3: once I realized that, I was like, I can yeah,

1049
00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:50,719
Speaker 3: I can trust that, Like, you know, the specifics of

1050
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:53,520
Speaker 3: the world, like what do you believe exactly feel very messy.

1051
00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:56,640
Speaker 3: I know that's true, but I can test it that way,

1052
00:46:56,719 --> 00:46:58,880
Speaker 3: and that felt good, Like, I don't know, just throwing

1053
00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:01,040
Speaker 3: that out, I'm curious that were responses to this.

1054
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:06,200
Speaker 2: That seems just like a very pro humanity perspective.

1055
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:08,080
Speaker 3: But it's well, you can sort of apply in a

1056
00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:13,200
Speaker 3: situation where you're like everybody's rationalizing why everybody hates us.

1057
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:16,080
Speaker 3: Is a very classic scenario where you can be like,

1058
00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:19,160
Speaker 3: what if I were open to them? You know, it's

1059
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:21,839
Speaker 3: like sounds terrifying in that circumstance, but it's like if

1060
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:24,839
Speaker 3: you could do that, probably you might discover everybody doesn't

1061
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:27,120
Speaker 3: hate you, you know, like everybody's not here and everybody

1062
00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:30,240
Speaker 3: it's like all the stuff that my community believed wasn't true.

1063
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:33,880
Speaker 3: But I had to be willing to be like I like,

1064
00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:36,240
Speaker 3: I'm open to people, like I'm not going to close

1065
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:38,439
Speaker 3: off to them like that. That sort of like thing

1066
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:39,880
Speaker 3: changes everything.

1067
00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:42,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean it's it does seem like you

1068
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:47,240
Speaker 2: are a fundamentally curious person, and curiosity I find in general.

1069
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:49,680
Speaker 2: You know, we talk about how education is the opposite

1070
00:47:49,719 --> 00:47:53,279
Speaker 2: of indoctrination, and what indoctrination does is.

1071
00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:55,200
Speaker 6: It closes you off to the world. It closes you.

1072
00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:56,959
Speaker 2: Off to people, and it makes you think in black

1073
00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 2: and white and very binary terms. But when you make

1074
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:02,840
Speaker 2: the attempt to learn and to understand and to be

1075
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:07,040
Speaker 2: curious and to connect, that is an opening to ideas,

1076
00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:09,800
Speaker 2: to other people, to the world. Does sound like, you know,

1077
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:12,600
Speaker 2: like a like a general good guideline.

1078
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:14,000
Speaker 6: Comes back to something that you said.

1079
00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:16,919
Speaker 1: You said, we form our identities and decide what we

1080
00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:18,719
Speaker 1: believe based on who we love.

1081
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:21,279
Speaker 6: What if we choose to love everybody?

1082
00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:24,680
Speaker 3: That's kind of the implication, right, or at least think

1083
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:27,120
Speaker 3: about what would it be like if I did. Yeah,

1084
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:30,480
Speaker 3: it's hard because it's kind of scary, but there's billions

1085
00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:31,080
Speaker 3: of people in the world.

1086
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:32,719
Speaker 4: What do you get? How how how what are you

1087
00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:33,040
Speaker 4: going to do?

1088
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:35,680
Speaker 3: You can't feel responsible to everybody, but at least the

1089
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:38,360
Speaker 3: idea of like what if I were responsible to everybody?

1090
00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:39,520
Speaker 4: How would I act? What would that do?

1091
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:42,759
Speaker 3: Would something I believe right now feel incompatible with that?

1092
00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:44,520
Speaker 6: Right? I love that?

1093
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:45,319
Speaker 5: I love that.

1094
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:45,680
Speaker 3: Derek.

1095
00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:48,319
Speaker 2: We have like four minutes left, but we didn't even

1096
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:50,799
Speaker 2: get to talk about you coming out as trans and

1097
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:52,319
Speaker 2: how that experience has been.

1098
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:55,800
Speaker 1: Can you do that informal minutes?

1099
00:48:56,520 --> 00:48:57,960
Speaker 4: Because it's like the newer thing.

1100
00:48:58,120 --> 00:48:59,279
Speaker 3: It's the thing that I think about a lot of

1101
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:01,279
Speaker 3: It's been really exciting that people like ask about it

1102
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:04,000
Speaker 3: now because it's like hardly in the book. But it's

1103
00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:07,200
Speaker 3: like when I went back and looked at my book notes,

1104
00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:09,480
Speaker 3: it was really like the last year or so, I

1105
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:12,080
Speaker 3: was like, I'm really not going to be just presenting

1106
00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:14,680
Speaker 3: as like as this dude on this promotion of the book.

1107
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:17,640
Speaker 4: Like I was wondering, because you know it's coming, you

1108
00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:19,000
Speaker 4: know the book time is coming.

1109
00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:20,759
Speaker 3: That's going to be a like be in front of

1110
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:22,560
Speaker 3: a lot of people, and in this post COVID world,

1111
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:23,800
Speaker 3: sometimes you don't have to be in front of a

1112
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:25,200
Speaker 3: lot of people for a while. You can sort of

1113
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:28,080
Speaker 3: like sit with your own presentation to yourself. And I

1114
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:30,520
Speaker 3: was like initially thinking, I guess, I'll just do a

1115
00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:32,720
Speaker 3: supposed to do and we're in a suit and time.

1116
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:34,799
Speaker 4: And be is this guy I guess? And I was like,

1117
00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:35,760
Speaker 4: I have come.

1118
00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:38,399
Speaker 3: Way too far over those years, really a pandemic thing

1119
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:40,440
Speaker 3: where I was like recognizing I don't have to do that,

1120
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:42,000
Speaker 3: don't want to do that, I don't like that, and

1121
00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:44,279
Speaker 3: then thinking it through, it was a little bit late

1122
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:45,920
Speaker 3: to like fully included in the book, but like I

1123
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:48,000
Speaker 3: had so many notes. I had all these notes about

1124
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 3: gender stuff throughout my life, and I was like, I

1125
00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:51,640
Speaker 3: don't know how to integrate it into the book. And

1126
00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:53,960
Speaker 3: I was thinking when the book actually came that nobody

1127
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:55,640
Speaker 3: was going to want to talk about it. And instead

1128
00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:58,239
Speaker 3: it's been like almost the opposite. I'll do like these

1129
00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:00,120
Speaker 3: interviews where it's like only about gender and I'm like, you.

1130
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:02,200
Speaker 4: Know, it's not really in the book much.

1131
00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:05,839
Speaker 3: Like so it's like something that's somewhat new and I'm

1132
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:08,600
Speaker 3: still always thinking it through a little bit, but I've also.

1133
00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:11,040
Speaker 4: Feel very confident and pleased by it.

1134
00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:14,320
Speaker 3: Like my gender experience was like of like the experience

1135
00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:19,160
Speaker 3: of always feeling like I didn't love being a guy, and.

1136
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:20,880
Speaker 4: It took a long time, particularly New College.

1137
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:22,920
Speaker 3: Actually I didn't want to be and it took New

1138
00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:24,960
Speaker 3: College to like think through what is what kind of

1139
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:25,480
Speaker 3: thoughts do.

1140
00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:27,400
Speaker 4: You have to have to say? You don't have to

1141
00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:30,439
Speaker 4: be Like it's like a bit of a mental leap.

1142
00:50:30,520 --> 00:50:32,399
Speaker 3: If you grew up in America, you know, you grew

1143
00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:35,080
Speaker 3: up in a society like this, And it was like

1144
00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:37,440
Speaker 3: New College was this place. It was very transupportive and

1145
00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:39,800
Speaker 3: like I always had the Internet and so I read things,

1146
00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:43,120
Speaker 3: but like it felt like even from the time of

1147
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:43,960
Speaker 3: being a kid.

1148
00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:45,960
Speaker 4: On that it was like the line.

1149
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:47,719
Speaker 3: That I've really rested on is like I forgot the

1150
00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:50,640
Speaker 3: difference between not being not feeling safe to do something

1151
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:51,520
Speaker 3: and not wanting to.

1152
00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:55,279
Speaker 4: And so it was like, even years after condemning.

1153
00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:57,040
Speaker 3: White nationalism, my first thought was like, oh great, I

1154
00:50:57,040 --> 00:51:01,000
Speaker 3: can transition. It was like that still felt too unsafe,

1155
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:03,919
Speaker 3: and it was like I couldn't distinguish the unsafe from

1156
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:06,760
Speaker 3: the like do I want to can I and which

1157
00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:09,560
Speaker 3: often makes the unsafe start feeling less Like things feel

1158
00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:11,919
Speaker 3: a lot less safe when you're just like I could

1159
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:13,920
Speaker 3: never and then when you actually say, well, what if

1160
00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:14,239
Speaker 3: I did.

1161
00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:16,000
Speaker 4: Then it becomes a lot more.

1162
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:17,560
Speaker 3: Like, well, the unsafety, it's kind of you know, you

1163
00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:19,840
Speaker 3: can deal with that, you can manage it. It's it's structural,

1164
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:21,920
Speaker 3: you can sort of live your life. And I've been

1165
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:23,680
Speaker 3: sort of in the midst of that, like everybody in

1166
00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:25,960
Speaker 3: my life is the thing and cheating me.

1167
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:28,440
Speaker 4: I've actually changed my name and I haven't like changed it.

1168
00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:35,080
Speaker 3: Publicly, so I like that's in yeah, thank you, yeah,

1169
00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:38,760
Speaker 3: and yeah, So it's been it's weird to be slightly

1170
00:51:39,080 --> 00:51:41,080
Speaker 3: like I feel good about it, but it also feels

1171
00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:44,800
Speaker 3: like slightly weird to be like speaking up, partly because

1172
00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:47,400
Speaker 3: like I don't know, I do still consider myself an activist,

1173
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:48,920
Speaker 3: and like there has never been a point in my

1174
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:53,640
Speaker 3: life where there's been more outright hatred and danger to

1175
00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:54,640
Speaker 3: trans people.

1176
00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:56,399
Speaker 4: And I have so many trans people in my life,

1177
00:51:56,440 --> 00:51:57,040
Speaker 4: and like I know.

1178
00:51:57,040 --> 00:51:59,319
Speaker 3: So many people who are refugees from Florida, and like

1179
00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:03,120
Speaker 3: I can be somebody who beyond like it felt horrible

1180
00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:05,240
Speaker 3: to just like present in a way that was wrong,

1181
00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:07,839
Speaker 3: but like beyond that, I can't be somebody who like

1182
00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:11,640
Speaker 3: speaks and doesn't say something because it's it's so dangerous.

1183
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:12,640
Speaker 4: Things have to change.

1184
00:52:12,880 --> 00:52:17,560
Speaker 3: It is so unbelievably awful and like worse than when

1185
00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:19,960
Speaker 3: I was. It feels awful to think that I grew

1186
00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:22,080
Speaker 3: up in Florida and I like, I don't know, I

1187
00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:24,880
Speaker 3: think I attacked in the bathroom for like looking like

1188
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:26,600
Speaker 3: a girl, and I was like in the boys room

1189
00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:30,360
Speaker 3: in elementary school in Florida. And to think that now,

1190
00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:34,080
Speaker 3: in this liberal county, the state law is so much

1191
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:36,080
Speaker 3: more explicitly anti trans than.

1192
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:38,320
Speaker 4: It was then. Right, It's like it's got worse.

1193
00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:42,120
Speaker 3: It's like now there's outright bands on talking about gender

1194
00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:45,359
Speaker 3: or using pronouns that like different from what you were

1195
00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:46,960
Speaker 3: like assigned when you were born.

1196
00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:49,040
Speaker 4: The idea that it is so much worse now than

1197
00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:50,880
Speaker 4: it was when I was a kid is such.

1198
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:54,640
Speaker 3: A horrifying idea that I just the idea of progress

1199
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:55,840
Speaker 3: like goes both ways.

1200
00:52:56,120 --> 00:52:58,600
Speaker 4: Is this unless people do something about.

1201
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:01,680
Speaker 1: It, Your brain has gone on quite a journey of

1202
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:03,040
Speaker 1: the beginning to now.

1203
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:04,200
Speaker 6: It's incredible.

1204
00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:10,080
Speaker 1: I wish everyone can be as authentic and finds off

1205
00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:13,080
Speaker 1: and yeah, it's really wonderful to see. So thank you

1206
00:53:13,160 --> 00:53:14,840
Speaker 1: for sharing it with ustally.

1207
00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:17,640
Speaker 2: Thank you and tell people where they can find your

1208
00:53:17,640 --> 00:53:18,600
Speaker 2: book and find you.

1209
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:23,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, the book is pleasantly available in just bookstores. I

1210
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:25,359
Speaker 3: always feel like everybody goes to Amazon, and I don't

1211
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:26,319
Speaker 3: like Amazon, so I.

1212
00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:27,160
Speaker 4: Go to your bookstore.

1213
00:53:28,160 --> 00:53:30,120
Speaker 3: I bought a copy of my own book from my

1214
00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:32,440
Speaker 3: local bookstore, just to support my own bookstore, and it

1215
00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:33,600
Speaker 3: felt very narcissistic.

1216
00:53:33,719 --> 00:53:34,440
Speaker 4: But you know.

1217
00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:38,440
Speaker 3: That I am actually delayed, and I should set up

1218
00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:40,160
Speaker 3: a website. But I'm just like, I kind of I

1219
00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:42,399
Speaker 3: have an Instagram it's art Eric Black, and I'm like.

1220
00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:44,120
Speaker 4: On the stuff like that, and whenever.

1221
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:45,440
Speaker 3: I have like a thing that I need to say,

1222
00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:47,040
Speaker 3: I usually put it somewhere like that.

1223
00:53:47,160 --> 00:53:49,880
Speaker 4: But someday there'll be a website and it'll also.

1224
00:53:49,719 --> 00:53:51,880
Speaker 3: Be like art Eric Black, or actually I'm taking my

1225
00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:54,040
Speaker 3: name so it'll be like Adrian Black at some point.

1226
00:53:55,680 --> 00:53:59,200
Speaker 2: Love that the Klansman's Son is the name of the book.

1227
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:00,719
Speaker 5: Thank you so much for being here.

1228
00:54:00,760 --> 00:54:04,560
Speaker 6: I'm so happy we got you for having me. Wow.

1229
00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:08,040
Speaker 5: Okay, yeah, what a fascinating thing.

1230
00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:11,600
Speaker 2: There's there's so much that I love about this interview.

1231
00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:14,400
Speaker 2: I love the idea that, like, different people sort of

1232
00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:19,200
Speaker 2: have different approaches and we kind of maybe need multiple

1233
00:54:20,239 --> 00:54:22,000
Speaker 2: to help people change their minds.

1234
00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:25,600
Speaker 1: Do you have any examples of some experience where somebody

1235
00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:27,880
Speaker 1: has spoken to you and it's changed your mind or

1236
00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:29,720
Speaker 1: anything like Derek's gone through.

1237
00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:34,000
Speaker 2: Yet and obviously not nothing quite so extreme, but I,

1238
00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:38,799
Speaker 2: you know, I remember being not quite Mormon anymore, not

1239
00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:44,880
Speaker 2: religious anymore, but still holding on to some leftover beliefs,

1240
00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:48,000
Speaker 2: Like I used to be anti abortion when I was young,

1241
00:54:48,239 --> 00:54:51,440
Speaker 2: and I remember people would try to talk to me

1242
00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:54,279
Speaker 2: about it in a way that was like kind of combative,

1243
00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:58,160
Speaker 2: and the approach was like, you're wrong, and they know,

1244
00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:00,719
Speaker 2: double down, and I would double down. I'd be like, well,

1245
00:55:00,719 --> 00:55:02,839
Speaker 2: now I have to prove my point to you, and

1246
00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:05,919
Speaker 2: of course now that's no longer my belief, like for

1247
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:09,680
Speaker 2: so many reasons. A friend of mine, for example, just

1248
00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:12,200
Speaker 2: had to get a life saving abortion to for her

1249
00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:18,000
Speaker 2: fucking can aggressive cancer. But yeah, so my it was

1250
00:55:18,080 --> 00:55:20,480
Speaker 2: just it was not how my mind was changed, right,

1251
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:22,880
Speaker 2: And I feel.

1252
00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:23,520
Speaker 5: Like I see that a lot.

1253
00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:26,600
Speaker 2: I feel like I bring things back to like just

1254
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:29,920
Speaker 2: basic relationship conversations a lot. But it reminds me of

1255
00:55:30,040 --> 00:55:32,600
Speaker 2: just like being in my relationship and we're if we

1256
00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:35,840
Speaker 2: disagree about something that happened or one of us perceived

1257
00:55:35,880 --> 00:55:39,360
Speaker 2: something differently, we only ever make headway. And like come

1258
00:55:39,480 --> 00:55:43,000
Speaker 2: to an agreement on reality when we like, in good

1259
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:47,160
Speaker 2: faith listen to what we're saying and uh not what

1260
00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:49,520
Speaker 2: we're saying, But when we in good faith like try

1261
00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:51,880
Speaker 2: to understand what the other person where the other person's

1262
00:55:51,920 --> 00:55:55,000
Speaker 2: coming from, and do it in a non attacking way,

1263
00:55:55,000 --> 00:55:58,400
Speaker 2: because every time we attack, it's just like, yeah, I'm

1264
00:55:58,520 --> 00:56:02,760
Speaker 2: knocking my hands together. This is maybe an inappropriate sound.

1265
00:56:02,960 --> 00:56:05,840
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, but again, like not everybody has the

1266
00:56:05,840 --> 00:56:07,760
Speaker 2: capacity for that the time exactly.

1267
00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:11,200
Speaker 1: And as we pointed out in the beginning, as like

1268
00:56:11,360 --> 00:56:14,080
Speaker 1: three white people, we can have the conversation with maybe

1269
00:56:14,200 --> 00:56:18,279
Speaker 1: a little bit you know, less emotion than somebody else is.

1270
00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:20,080
Speaker 2: Actually being impacted by these pleas.

1271
00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:21,480
Speaker 5: But I but I do.

1272
00:56:21,360 --> 00:56:25,040
Speaker 2: Think that, you know, as somebody with that privilege, it

1273
00:56:25,120 --> 00:56:27,560
Speaker 2: is important to have those conversations with other people who

1274
00:56:27,640 --> 00:56:31,040
Speaker 2: maybe could hear it from me better. Yeah, yeah, anyway,

1275
00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:32,240
Speaker 2: conversation matters.

1276
00:56:32,440 --> 00:56:35,640
Speaker 1: Yeah for real, Thanks for spending another week here with us,

1277
00:56:35,640 --> 00:56:38,400
Speaker 1: and trust me. Go rate us five stars if you

1278
00:56:38,600 --> 00:56:41,840
Speaker 1: if you want to please, and as always, remember to

1279
00:56:41,880 --> 00:56:44,400
Speaker 1: follow your gut, watch out for red flax.

1280
00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:46,040
Speaker 5: And never ever trust me.

1281
00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:52,719
Speaker 2: Trust Me is produced by Kirsten Woodward Gabby Rapp and

1282
00:56:52,719 --> 00:56:54,120
Speaker 2: Steve Delamator.

1283
00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:55,640
Speaker 1: With special thanks to Stacy Para.

1284
00:56:55,560 --> 00:56:58,000
Speaker 2: And Our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

1285
00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:01,600
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram, a me podcast, Twitter

1286
00:57:01,760 --> 00:57:05,040
Speaker 1: at trust Me Cult pod, or on TikTok at trust

1287
00:57:05,080 --> 00:57:06,320
Speaker 1: Me Cult Podcast.

1288
00:57:06,520 --> 00:57:09,879
Speaker 2: I'm Ula Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

1289
00:57:09,600 --> 00:57:13,160
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Abraham

1290
00:57:13,320 --> 00:57:14,360
Speaker 1: Hicks on Twitter.

1291
00:57:14,560 --> 00:57:16,840
Speaker 2: Remember to rate and review and spread the word.