Speaker 1: In so many ways. I think Dee and I heard
Speaker 1: it spoken this way really well at the Black Economic
Speaker 1: Alliance some that I went to recently. EI being really
Speaker 1: a consolation prize, it isn't the end goal for us
Speaker 1: by any means, and so I think it's really kind
Speaker 1: of forcing us, as we live through this moment to
Speaker 1: think about one all we have are ourselves and the
Speaker 1: places that we find ourselves in. It's like, how do
Speaker 1: we continue the work that so many of us have
Speaker 1: already been doing and now maybe without the support, but
Speaker 1: with certainly the scrutiny of this moment and how we're
Speaker 1: experiencing that, but I think that the impact can still happen.
Speaker 2: Hey, via FAM, Welcome back to the Brown Table. I
Speaker 2: am joined by a very special guest today who is
Speaker 2: somehow younger than me, but you just kind of get
Speaker 2: the feeling that they can be like president. Like I
Speaker 2: imagine this is kind of like what it's like to
Speaker 2: talk to Amanda Gorman, that poet whose parents have been
Speaker 2: raising to be the president. I just feel like I'm
Speaker 2: speaking to future Nobel Prize winner. It's fine. I'm very
Speaker 2: secure in myself, so I can appreciate her light and
Speaker 2: her light only shines on me, and I am so
Speaker 2: grateful to have doctor Rachel Laery on Brown Ambition today.
Speaker 2: Let me tell you about her. Not only does she
Speaker 2: have a brand new book that is coming out by
Speaker 2: the time you listen to this episode. You can probably
Speaker 2: pre order it already, but you should definitely go to
Speaker 2: the show notes and ground the link to purchase her book.
Speaker 2: And the book is called Now this is a huge title,
Speaker 2: but the book is called Black Capitalists, A Blueprint for
Speaker 2: what is Possible. It's coming out this June. It should
Speaker 2: be out soon by the time you're listening to this episode.
Speaker 2: But doctor, again, doctor Rachel lay is not just an author.
Speaker 2: Before she put together this incredible book, she created her
Speaker 2: really unique career path, which I'm going to dive into.
Speaker 2: I haven't met many women who've managed to carve out entrepreneurship,
Speaker 2: writing their own book and still working for a huge
Speaker 2: financial institution like JP Morgan Chase. But again, doctor Laier,
Speaker 2: you talked to me saying that yet you earned it.
Speaker 2: She cut her teeth on Wall Street at Goldman Sachs
Speaker 2: and then she went on to receive a dual PhD
Speaker 2: in African American Studies and socio cultural anthropology at Yale University.
Speaker 2: I've like heard of it cool. Her ethnographic research aims
Speaker 2: to understand nuanced forms of black participation in capitalist economies.
Speaker 2: She is a recipient of the National Science Foundation Research
Speaker 2: Fellowship Award, and she's also been name dropped by the
Speaker 2: Ford Foundation for her research, receiving an honorable mention. She's
Speaker 2: held an adjunct professor appointment at the NYU Stern Business School,
Speaker 2: and currently she's an asset wealth management researcher at JP
Speaker 2: Morgan Chase. And I don't know, just like in her
Speaker 2: spare time or whatever, she's founded this company. It's called Kellela,
Speaker 2: which is a lifestyle brand that's based in Brooklyn, where
Speaker 2: she curates bespoke West and East African travel experiences and
Speaker 2: has elevated the plantain to the platform. It's always deserved
Speaker 2: by creative Vegan. And she's here on Brown Ambition because
Speaker 2: duh have you heard her bio? If I'm not getting
Speaker 2: doctor lay on my podcast? What are we doing? What
Speaker 2: are we doing wrong? Brann and bish Well, welcome to
Speaker 2: the show, and congratulations on all of these milestones in
Speaker 2: your career.
Speaker 1: Oh many, Thank you so much. That was such a beautiful,
Speaker 1: gracious intro. I appreciate it. It's awesome to be here in
Speaker 1: chow Now.
Speaker 2: I think what's more important for BA fan to know
Speaker 2: is that she's actually at her brother's house right now
Speaker 2: in the Midwest, babysitting for her three year old and
Speaker 2: one year old? Is it niece and nephew. Yes, yes,
Speaker 2: what a good auntie. We love it.
Speaker 1: Listen, I gotta be gotta show up.
Speaker 2: They got to show you from Brooklyn. They said you
Speaker 2: better get on over here.
Speaker 1: So it has been a whirl end. But so happy
Speaker 1: to have this moment to talk with you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, So God, Like, where do we start? I
Speaker 2: guess before we get into the book black capitalist, I
Speaker 2: want you to define it for me, black capitalists, because
Speaker 2: I think I'm someone who I can talk about capitalism
Speaker 2: and capitalists. I have an uncle who's like, I'm a capitalist,
Speaker 2: so I'm voting for Trump. We don't want to go there,
Speaker 2: but black capitalists, Like, why do those two words together
Speaker 2: make me feel weird?
Speaker 1: Exactly? And it's often the case that many people think
Speaker 1: of the term black capitalists as oxymeeronic, and so much
Speaker 1: of the reason for that is when you look at
Speaker 1: the creation of American capitalism and black people through the
Speaker 1: implementation of legalized slavery. We built this capitalist system, but
Speaker 1: we're never really allowed to be the beneficiaries of what
Speaker 1: we built. And so the idea of being a black
Speaker 1: capitalist presents for many an identity crisis. It's like, how
Speaker 1: can you hold affinity to a system that you've been
Speaker 1: excluded from systematically, And so oftentimes when people define capitalism itself,
Speaker 1: oftentimes that's very much kind of imbued with feelings of disgruntlement,
Speaker 1: a lot of financial anxiety, worry. People will talk about
Speaker 1: capitalism is the root of all evil, the white man's
Speaker 1: way of keeping us down, all of these different ways
Speaker 1: in which people will define it. But for me, I
Speaker 1: think what's really important, and part of the key argument
Speaker 1: of the book is if we take capitalism as a
Speaker 1: political or economic system whereby private actors engage in economic
Speaker 1: exchange for the purpose of yielding excess capital. In that sense,
Speaker 1: anyone can be a capitalist or a private actor, and
Speaker 1: that's both hopeful and also potentially problematic. Right hopeful in
Speaker 1: the sense that we kind of take away this racialized
Speaker 1: aspects that we have around who the capitalist is, who
Speaker 1: the labor is, and it kind of opens up new
Speaker 1: potentials around Okay, how can we use the tools of
Speaker 1: capitalism to create new outcomes outside of the ones that
Speaker 1: we're so familiar with, namely being within the black community
Speaker 1: in that labor position and experiencing the harms of capitalism
Speaker 1: so deeply, whether it be exploitation, extraction, etc. But then,
Speaker 1: of course we also know that when you look at
Speaker 1: the racial wealth gap, who has predominantly been the capitalist,
Speaker 1: who has predominantly been the beneficiary of capitalism has been
Speaker 1: white people. And so when you then take black and
Speaker 1: capitalists and you put it together overlaying that whole history
Speaker 1: that I kind of spoke to very quickly, then you
Speaker 1: have that kind of visceral emotional reaction of this doesn't
Speaker 1: quite sit right with me, you know, And so so
Speaker 1: much of the book and the work that I do
Speaker 1: is around Okay, let's unpack all of this and then
Speaker 1: let's get to a place of common ground and neutrality
Speaker 1: about what is capitalism defined. But then also what I'm
Speaker 1: offering about what black capitalists and what it means to
Speaker 1: also black capitalism, which is definitionally to be a black
Speaker 1: capitalist is to be someone who identifies as a black
Speaker 1: person and strategically participates in the economy with the intent
Speaker 1: to produce social good. So what's really important about that
Speaker 1: definition is not just about how can you create profitability
Speaker 1: by strategically positioning yourself and participating in the economy, but
Speaker 1: it is that other really important part around social good
Speaker 1: and that kind of consistent orientation to community, which is
Speaker 1: what allows us to then rethink how the tools of
Speaker 1: capitalism can be used outside of what we've seen them
Speaker 1: be used for. And that's similar to black capitalism, which
Speaker 1: is very' agnostic, how anybody, private actors, individual are collective
Speaker 1: can resituate themselves within capitalism with the intention to create
Speaker 1: social good. If you take a framework like black feminism,
Speaker 1: you don't have to be a black person to practice
Speaker 1: black feminism, but it is kind of an orientation around
Speaker 1: how you show up in support of others in supportive
Speaker 1: community as well, and creating a distinction just in that
Speaker 1: kind of example, to be a black feminist versus practicing
Speaker 1: black feminism. Similar concept to how you can someone can
Speaker 1: be a black capitalist, but then also collective can practice
Speaker 1: black capitalism.
Speaker 2: So that's all really interesting. I'm wondering, like, when you
Speaker 2: talk about the importance of creating social good to be
Speaker 2: a black capitalist? Does that social good need to impact us? Like?
Speaker 2: Is it what the intent that seems important here? It's
Speaker 2: like who who in the social structure? Are we like benefits? Yes? Sure? So?
Speaker 2: Is this as simple as like, I mean, in an
Speaker 2: ideal world where you've got a profitable business and then
Speaker 2: you set up a nonprofit arm to then give back
Speaker 2: into the community or fund grants for other entrepreneurs? Is
Speaker 2: it dedicating a percentage of profits to certain causes that
Speaker 2: benefit our communities? Is that the ideal that you're hoping
Speaker 2: this book can help shine a light on.
Speaker 1: Yes, in some ways. And I think what's so beautiful
Speaker 1: about black capitalism is that it can be experienced and
Speaker 1: practiced in so many different ways. Just as we know
Speaker 1: blackness is not a monolith and it's not a monolithic experience,
Speaker 1: the practice of black capitalism is also not a monolithic experience.
Speaker 1: And so the definition that I offer in the framework
Speaker 1: is robust enough to account for all the different positions
Speaker 1: that we might sit in in our daily lives. Some
Speaker 1: of us might be in corporate America, like myself, And
Speaker 1: so the questions then become within the seat that I'm
Speaker 1: seated in what are the opportunities or the access channels
Speaker 1: that I can create for other folks in the institution
Speaker 1: outside of it, And I can give examples for how
Speaker 1: we might think about that. If you're an entrepreneur, some
Speaker 1: of what you just described those are beautiful examples of
Speaker 1: how you can reposition yourself within the economy to still
Speaker 1: create a profitable business. But then also keeping in mind
Speaker 1: it goes hand in hand how you create social good
Speaker 1: as well. I think it's the case that we all
Speaker 1: have a slice of this capitalist pie, and it's really
Speaker 1: up to us how we're going to use it and
Speaker 1: how we're also going to feed each other in that
Speaker 1: kind of experience, And so regardless of where you sit,
Speaker 1: there's always kind of a part to play. And I
Speaker 1: think that it's less about adjudicating when is enough or
Speaker 1: how much social goods should I do, but really from
Speaker 1: just having it as a mindset kind of like a
Speaker 1: way of life in terms of this is an ethos,
Speaker 1: a kind of consistent practice and orientation that I have
Speaker 1: around always asking myself how can I be in service
Speaker 1: of community, which also requires an abundance mindset, a belief
Speaker 1: and a trust in each other and that we can
Speaker 1: really only get free through being in community with each other.
Speaker 1: And so those are the kind of core building blocks
Speaker 1: to then really practice this and create effective change in
Speaker 1: the long term.
Speaker 2: I mean, it just sounds very similar to the ethos
Speaker 2: of Brown ambition, which is we're not just building wealth
Speaker 2: because it's fun to get rich. It's how can we
Speaker 2: use our economic power to influence change, to bring about change,
Speaker 2: to protect ourselves, to protect our families, to build generational wealth,
Speaker 2: all those things. There's really like an empowerment element to it,
Speaker 2: which sometimes I think you need because capitalism, ambition, these
Speaker 2: are two words that tend to drop feelings of like, oh,
Speaker 2: like you're just selfish, you're greedy, you're looking out for
Speaker 2: number one. But it's like, no, let's look at these
Speaker 2: terms and show that they can bring about good. It
Speaker 2: just matters like who's controlling it. As long as you
Speaker 2: control the wealth, you can have so much influence. One
Speaker 2: of the things that I when I was kind of
Speaker 2: reading through some of I know you talk to black
Speaker 2: professionals who are working in corporate America, And one of
Speaker 2: the stories that resonated with me was the guy who said,
Speaker 2: and he works in banking, I believe and he said
Speaker 2: that he feels like he's a spy a little bit,
Speaker 2: like they think he's one of them. And by one
Speaker 2: of them, I mean like we's kind of code switching.
Speaker 2: We all do that. We show up to work, we talk,
Speaker 2: we talk real good, and we make everybody feel good
Speaker 2: that we have a black person on their team, but
Speaker 2: like never exactly like owning our blackness necessarily because that
Speaker 2: might be a little threatening, but just being there in
Speaker 2: the mix. But at the same time, he's like, but
Speaker 2: I've never forgotten who I am. I know why I'm here.
Speaker 2: And it just resonated with me so much because in
Speaker 2: my corporate career, when I got to a position where
Speaker 2: I was hiring someone, oh yeah, I mentioned that I
Speaker 2: work with someone whose last name is Lia. I know
Speaker 2: another LIAI shout out to Brittany, and she was the
Speaker 2: first reporter that I was ever able to hire. Once
Speaker 2: I became a manager, it mattered to me that my
Speaker 2: first hire was a black woman. I went on to
Speaker 2: get the privilege to put together a team that ended
Speaker 2: up including like I think, thirty staff and a bunch
Speaker 2: of contractors, and I used to say to myself, I'm
Speaker 2: like a spy, Like nobody knows I'm taking all the
Speaker 2: money that they're giving me for these hires, and I
Speaker 2: am going and finding people of color and women like
Speaker 2: and I just I love that there. I want more
Speaker 2: of us to think of it that way, all here undercover,
Speaker 2: to create that change in incremental ways, like from within.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that. Because also after I graduated from college,
Speaker 1: you know, so many of my peers went on to
Speaker 1: more like altruistic careers, and I faced quite a bit
Speaker 1: of criticism around like, oh, you're going to Goldman Sachs,
Speaker 1: like that's the belly of the beast, Like what's she
Speaker 1: going to go do there? You know? And also coming
Speaker 1: from my undergraduate studies which was seeped in social and
Speaker 1: cultural analysis and really understanding the harms of these structures,
Speaker 1: generally capitalist structures. But for me, it's like it really
Speaker 1: matters the orientation that you have when you're in those spaces,
Speaker 1: because surely, yes, you can exist in these corporate spaces
Speaker 1: that people have all of this criticism around, But if
Speaker 1: you have these subversive intentions like alex as you mentioned,
Speaker 1: that makes a difference. It's like the how and the
Speaker 1: why can really shift outcomes. Because I think for him,
Speaker 1: what was so important was like how can he channel
Speaker 1: resources to his community by being at the firm that
Speaker 1: he was, similar to how you're thinking about how can
Speaker 1: I create a pipeline of access for people to have
Speaker 1: space in these spaces where otherwise maybe they wouldn't be
Speaker 1: considered or overlooked or whatever it is. And so I
Speaker 1: think when you shift our mindset, it's like, Oh, there's
Speaker 1: a whole new set of opportunities I think that arise
Speaker 1: in that, and that to me is like the efficacy
Speaker 1: and the potential to create new outcomes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, especially at a time like this where that's like
Speaker 2: DEI attacked, it almost makes me regret the resurgence or
Speaker 2: the surge of DEI as a term as an institution,
Speaker 2: like as a categorization in corporate America, like in the
Speaker 2: summer of twenty twenty, and all of a sudden, it's like, oh,
Speaker 2: we're going to show that we are on board by
Speaker 2: creating these DEI rolls or teams and initiatives. It almost
Speaker 2: like gave a target. So the way that we were
Speaker 2: kind of being subversive and like the way that I
Speaker 2: was being sneaky about it. I'm practicing d I in
Speaker 2: my hiring, but I ain't telling nobody is that, you
Speaker 2: know what I mean? But it's like when we name it,
Speaker 2: we kind of give them a target. And I think
Speaker 2: that's what's happening. And so you're seeing now it's like, well,
Speaker 2: let's just get rid of all these DEI programs. And
Speaker 2: I think that, you know, what we're talking about is
Speaker 2: like a reminder that if you're still like we're a
Speaker 2: lot of people were in corporate like, you can still
Speaker 2: have an impact even if you're not under that umbrella,
Speaker 2: maybe even more so because we can sneak by. Yes, yes,
Speaker 2: you know that's the Beverly Hills cop know what's the
Speaker 2: emission impossible?
Speaker 1: Oh? Is that one?
Speaker 2: No, I don't know. James Bond, that's okay. Maybe if
Speaker 2: Lushana Lynch was the new Black James Bond like she
Speaker 2: should have been, oh I would know.
Speaker 1: But I agree with you. I think it creates and
Speaker 1: in so many ways I think d E and I
Speaker 1: I heard it spoken this way really well at the
Speaker 1: Black Economic Alliance Summit that I went to recently. EI
Speaker 1: being really a consolation prize. It isn't the end goal
Speaker 1: for us by any means, and so I think it's
Speaker 1: really kind of forcing us as we live through this
Speaker 1: moment to think about one, all we have are ourselves
Speaker 1: and the places that we find ourselves in. It's like,
Speaker 1: how do we continue the work that so many of
Speaker 1: us have already been doing and now maybe without the support,
Speaker 1: but with certainly the scrutiny of this moment and how
Speaker 1: we're experiencing that. But I think that the impact can
Speaker 1: still happen. When I first joined JP Morgan Chase, I
Speaker 1: was the Community Impact team, and that team was responsible
Speaker 1: for the thirty billion dollar racial equity commitment that came
Speaker 1: out in twenty twenty after George Floyd's murder, where the
Speaker 1: firm made very strong commitments around how it was going
Speaker 1: to really try to close this racial wealth gap. I
Speaker 1: was on that team starting in twenty twenty two and
Speaker 1: really kind of a watch from the inside the kind
Speaker 1: of process and the journey of a Dee and I
Speaker 1: effort and initiative go invoke and out of vogue within
Speaker 1: a period of time. And that was so striking to
Speaker 1: me to see that to be a d and I
Speaker 1: practitioner as a black woman, you know, really in service
Speaker 1: of our black and brown clients, and what that moment meant.
Speaker 1: Layer on the affirmative action ruling that came out around
Speaker 1: that period as well, and it kind of really shifted,
Speaker 1: not even just kind of the internal stakeholder conversations that
Speaker 1: were happening around the work that we were doing, which
Speaker 1: was already challenging because here you are trying to create
Speaker 1: new ways of working within the business, but now there's
Speaker 1: this kind of question around legal prudence and due diligence
Speaker 1: to make sure that we're not making a firm liable
Speaker 1: to anything created another layer of complexity, and that prompt
Speaker 1: in my own kind of professional journey of what are
Speaker 1: other places I could find myself in? Ultimately wound up
Speaker 1: in ass wealth management. The work doesn't end. It's like
Speaker 1: I spend a lot of my time still thinking about
Speaker 1: how can I create new outcomes for our black clients
Speaker 1: within the wealth management space.
Speaker 2: A couple of things I want to talk about. What's
Speaker 2: your take on a couple of things? One in the
Speaker 2: news right now? Of course, in my mind, I'm like
Speaker 2: the met Gala to display I feel like of black
Speaker 2: capitalism at work with the theme this year, and I
Speaker 2: would love to get your take on it. Do you
Speaker 2: think that that type of initiative is helpful? You have
Speaker 2: like this largely white fashion industry who's obviously profited off
Speaker 2: of our culture in so many ways, but still you
Speaker 2: see so many few designers of color reach these prominent
Speaker 2: levels as other mainstream brands and get as much access
Speaker 2: to the resources as other brands and other fashion houses.
Speaker 2: But then you have Vogue kind of centering blackness in
Speaker 2: the theme for this year, and Black Dandyism really celebrating
Speaker 2: tailoring and the influence of a very specific time in
Speaker 2: black culture in the fashion landscape, and which has then
Speaker 2: given them this huge platform to spotlight black designers and
Speaker 2: really celebrate that work. What's your perspective on that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, I'm
Speaker 1: always going to be in supportive of black people getting
Speaker 1: the visibility they deserve the money. But at the same time,
Speaker 1: I think it's important that we not rely on these
Speaker 1: white institutions to be the savior or the means by
Speaker 1: which we create access for ourselves. It's like great, taking
Speaker 1: all the resources in whatever manner they come from, who
Speaker 1: they come but I think what's important is, like, especially
Speaker 1: a lot of those moments, they don't have the level
Speaker 1: of consistency or sustainability. It becomes a one and done unfortunately,
Speaker 1: or it becomes something of the zeitgeist. And so all
Speaker 1: of the more reason that when we're talking about sustainability
Speaker 1: and what's really going to hold this down in the
Speaker 1: long term, it really needs to come from us. And
Speaker 1: so I think it's always how can we anchor on
Speaker 1: the tools that we can use for ourselves, create those
Speaker 1: kind of systems for ourselves. And sure it's like if
Speaker 1: folks want to shine a light amazing, especially because those
Speaker 1: spaces have capital and excess and all these other privileges
Speaker 1: that come with that. It's like leverage it. I'm all
Speaker 1: about how can we leverage and service of our community.
Speaker 1: And so I think keeping that kind of maybe sobering
Speaker 1: perspective in mind that we never know how long those
Speaker 1: opportunities will last. But what we do know is we
Speaker 1: have us at the end of the day, and so
Speaker 1: we have to make sure that we're locked in on
Speaker 1: that and we're good and anything else is I think
Speaker 1: additive to that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, target, My perspective is like we just
Speaker 2: all got it, and I don't even think we needed
Speaker 2: Al Sharpton, but like shout out out for you know,
Speaker 2: doing reverend for putting his stamp on it. But this
Speaker 2: like national agreement among black consumers that we don't f
Speaker 2: with no MO. Do you talk about other examples of
Speaker 2: these types of like collective boycotting and how we can
Speaker 2: actually have an impact. You think about lunch counter boycotts
Speaker 2: and obviously the boycotts during the Civil rights movement, But
Speaker 2: is this an example of how we can be black
Speaker 2: capitalists and using it?
Speaker 1: Yes, one thousand percent. I think what's so important is
Speaker 1: that oftentimes when we collectively think about executing our agency
Speaker 1: or the moments we feel most stagantic is when we're voting.
Speaker 1: And that's not something that only needs to happen every
Speaker 1: four years, every two years, whenever there's an election. We
Speaker 1: vote every day with our wallet, every single day, multiple
Speaker 1: times a day, and that is as powerful a vote,
Speaker 1: if not more able, and really am the service of
Speaker 1: getting us the things that we want, creating the outcomes
Speaker 1: that we're wanting, and so so often and because of
Speaker 1: just the you know, the structures that have been in
Speaker 1: place that have limited the access that we've had to
Speaker 1: systems and opportunities around ownership, consumerism has really been the
Speaker 1: avenue that's been available to us. And so when you
Speaker 1: think about that. It's often been from a place of
Speaker 1: a lack of agency. See, it's like, oh, this is
Speaker 1: what we've been relegated to, this is what we've been given,
Speaker 1: and so this is how we'll participate in economy. But
Speaker 1: there's still agency to be realized even in a consumerist approach.
Speaker 1: It's like I choose where I will spend my dollars.
Speaker 1: And so I think what's so beautiful about this moment,
Speaker 1: which I think is new, is that we have struggled
Speaker 1: to really get to a unified place and really speaking
Speaker 1: from one voice when it comes to how we use
Speaker 1: our money within the community. And so you know, if
Speaker 1: people don't want to, I'll put it this way, whether
Speaker 1: it be allies or not. I think white people have
Speaker 1: an incredible ability to consume a lot of qualitative data
Speaker 1: about racism without changing their behaviors. But then when they
Speaker 1: are presented with the effects of economics, like not having
Speaker 1: access to our capital in different ways, that creates a
Speaker 1: new paradigm where okay, we're listening in new ways, and
Speaker 1: so I think that's really important to keep in mind.
Speaker 1: And the more that we can come and connect from
Speaker 1: a place of unification in that, the better and so
Speaker 1: I think that's so important, especially because that hasn't always
Speaker 1: been the case. And so even when you think about
Speaker 1: this from a global context and you want to say
Speaker 1: something like pan Africanism. One of the people that I
Speaker 1: interview in the book, he is based in Ghana. He
Speaker 1: has an investment company and has built out a company
Speaker 1: really focused on technology at the center of healthcare and
Speaker 1: real estate across the African continent, and so much of
Speaker 1: what he says is what's really important is when you
Speaker 1: think about how countries negotiate with each other. It's a
Speaker 1: very different paradigm for Ghana right as a country to negotiate,
Speaker 1: you know, political terms with say the United States. But
Speaker 1: what's different is if you have fifty four African countries
Speaker 1: with how many of our people, how much additional resources
Speaker 1: in capital per person accounted for in that context to
Speaker 1: then be negotiating terms. It's like when you move from
Speaker 1: a place unification it creates new outcomes, and I think
Speaker 1: we're seeing that in this moment, but we can also
Speaker 1: see it in a really global scale as well. It's
Speaker 1: not just situated in an American context. And so I'm excited
Speaker 1: about that, but I still think there's work to be
Speaker 1: done when it comes to how we talk about consumerism,
Speaker 1: ownership and relating it back to our practice of capitalism
Speaker 1: and really reorienting our mindset around how we can be
Speaker 1: capitalists and participate as capitalists within capitalism but from a
Speaker 1: different place, and create new outcomes in that process.
Speaker 2: So, with a little bit of time we have left,
Speaker 2: I want to talk about your career because it's so fascinating.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's very multi layered. You're working for this
Speaker 2: giant bank right now, Jamie Diamond said something about DEI
Speaker 2: that wasn't great. How do you balance working for such
Speaker 2: a big brand? Are they cool with this book tour? Like?
Speaker 2: Do they know about your book?
Speaker 1: You know, I had to get the book approved actually,
Speaker 1: and especially especially because I worked on the community impact
Speaker 1: team responsible for other racial equity commitment. So and I
Speaker 1: write about that.
Speaker 2: I write about what.
Speaker 1: It meant for me to be on that team during
Speaker 1: that moment and to see the swift changes and some
Speaker 1: of the challenges of being at a bank and trying
Speaker 1: to do racial equity work. And so they're like, oh,
Speaker 1: we need to see what you said. So they're very
Speaker 1: much aware. But it's interesting because I think, and especially
Speaker 1: I learned it when I was at Goldman. These institutions
Speaker 1: we know are not perfect by any means, But then
Speaker 1: for me, similar to what we were talking about before,
Speaker 1: it's like, how can I use this in service of
Speaker 1: myself and of my community. I know that, especially when
Speaker 1: I was in grad school, I thought I was going
Speaker 1: to become an academic, and I quickly became disillusioned with
Speaker 1: that idea, just seeing the quality of life, the challenges
Speaker 1: that come especially with being a black woman in academia,
Speaker 1: the standards that we were held to, the lack of
Speaker 1: promotion we get so often, and of course so much
Speaker 1: of that translates into corporate America as well, but just
Speaker 1: opportunities to acquire resources for me personally, just more opportunity there.
Speaker 1: And so I said, Okay, if I know that I'm
Speaker 1: going to make that trade off, it's like what are
Speaker 1: the what's the what's the dance that I'm always playing?
Speaker 1: And that's really what it is for me. Where it's
Speaker 1: you know, it's not a perfect place, but I have
Speaker 1: been able to find a really good team of people
Speaker 1: that I genuinely enjoy working with. And then of course
Speaker 1: I also have my motives of how can I create
Speaker 1: new outcomes for black folks within the context of wealth
Speaker 1: management and use pol do there exactly? As a researcher, Yeah,
Speaker 1: So I cover within wealth management the research that allows
Speaker 1: us to create mental models around our clients that then
Speaker 1: informs the kinds of products that we create and ultimately
Speaker 1: market to our clients. And so within wealth management, we
Speaker 1: have advice services where someone might say I want to
Speaker 1: work with a financial advisor, and there are different product
Speaker 1: offerings for that. And we also have self directed investing
Speaker 1: online investing where people can kind of self service and
Speaker 1: we have a product for that. And so I and
Speaker 1: a lot of time I'll go to people's homes, I'll
Speaker 1: interview them, I'll talk to them, hey, like, how do
Speaker 1: you think about wealth? How do you think about investing?
Speaker 1: How has it changed over time? I, as a researcher,
Speaker 1: listening and gathering all of this data across all of
Speaker 1: these different people that I speak to then say to
Speaker 1: our product partners and our other stakeholders, this should be
Speaker 1: the direction with which we strategically think about the buildout
Speaker 1: of the products that we have. So that's the kind
Speaker 1: of work that I do. And is unsurprising is that
Speaker 1: when you're talking with a bunch of really affluent, high
Speaker 1: net worth folks. The majority of them historically have been
Speaker 1: white men, And so when I say I'm going to
Speaker 1: people's homes, is usually white men's homes that I'm going to,
Speaker 1: and I'm talking to them. But I'm always thinking through
Speaker 1: how can I create opportunities to interview black folks, to
Speaker 1: bring them into the office so people can see them,
Speaker 1: to see that black wealth is also a reality, and
Speaker 1: to create just considerations for different experiences that have been
Speaker 1: really just anchored on this one experience within the business.
Speaker 1: And so that for me is always my kind of
Speaker 1: call to action while I'm in these spaces that are
Speaker 1: make no mistake giving me resources to live the life
Speaker 1: that I live, But it's really how can I use
Speaker 1: it in service of more than just myself?
Speaker 2: You know, well, thank you. I know we have a
Speaker 2: hard stop. I'm going to shout out the in the
Speaker 2: in the show notes. Although we didn't get you have
Speaker 2: to come back. We can talk about your your passion
Speaker 2: project with Kelly. But doctor Rachel Lay, thank you so much.
Speaker 2: Congratulations on the book be a fam Go check it out.
Speaker 2: The book is Black Capitalist a blueprint for what is possible?
Speaker 2: It's a great it's just a great book to get
Speaker 2: you thinking and maybe like help help us all become
Speaker 2: little corporate spies, because it matters, it really does. All right,
Speaker 2: go be anti anti because for real, that's the most
Speaker 2: I learned about you. I'm like, oh, you're good people.
Speaker 1: Attah No, this has been a pleasure.
Speaker 2: Six