1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,160 Speaker 1: In so many ways. I think Dee and I heard 2 00:00:02,200 --> 00:00:05,720 Speaker 1: it spoken this way really well at the Black Economic 3 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:08,800 Speaker 1: Alliance some that I went to recently. EI being really 4 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:12,280 Speaker 1: a consolation prize, it isn't the end goal for us 5 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:15,080 Speaker 1: by any means, and so I think it's really kind 6 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 1: of forcing us, as we live through this moment to 7 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:21,479 Speaker 1: think about one all we have are ourselves and the 8 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:23,599 Speaker 1: places that we find ourselves in. It's like, how do 9 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:25,439 Speaker 1: we continue the work that so many of us have 10 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 1: already been doing and now maybe without the support, but 11 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 1: with certainly the scrutiny of this moment and how we're 12 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:35,080 Speaker 1: experiencing that, but I think that the impact can still happen. 13 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 2: Hey, via FAM, Welcome back to the Brown Table. I 14 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 2: am joined by a very special guest today who is 15 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:50,959 Speaker 2: somehow younger than me, but you just kind of get 16 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 2: the feeling that they can be like president. Like I 17 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 2: imagine this is kind of like what it's like to 18 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 2: talk to Amanda Gorman, that poet whose parents have been 19 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 2: raising to be the president. I just feel like I'm 20 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 2: speaking to future Nobel Prize winner. It's fine. I'm very 21 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 2: secure in myself, so I can appreciate her light and 22 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 2: her light only shines on me, and I am so 23 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 2: grateful to have doctor Rachel Laery on Brown Ambition today. 24 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 2: Let me tell you about her. Not only does she 25 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:22,119 Speaker 2: have a brand new book that is coming out by 26 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:24,679 Speaker 2: the time you listen to this episode. You can probably 27 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 2: pre order it already, but you should definitely go to 28 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 2: the show notes and ground the link to purchase her book. 29 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 2: And the book is called Now this is a huge title, 30 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 2: but the book is called Black Capitalists, A Blueprint for 31 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 2: what is Possible. It's coming out this June. It should 32 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 2: be out soon by the time you're listening to this episode. 33 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 2: But doctor, again, doctor Rachel lay is not just an author. 34 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 2: Before she put together this incredible book, she created her 35 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 2: really unique career path, which I'm going to dive into. 36 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 2: I haven't met many women who've managed to carve out entrepreneurship, 37 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 2: writing their own book and still working for a huge 38 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 2: financial institution like JP Morgan Chase. But again, doctor Laier, 39 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 2: you talked to me saying that yet you earned it. 40 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 2: She cut her teeth on Wall Street at Goldman Sachs 41 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 2: and then she went on to receive a dual PhD 42 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 2: in African American Studies and socio cultural anthropology at Yale University. 43 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 2: I've like heard of it cool. Her ethnographic research aims 44 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 2: to understand nuanced forms of black participation in capitalist economies. 45 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:35,360 Speaker 2: She is a recipient of the National Science Foundation Research 46 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 2: Fellowship Award, and she's also been name dropped by the 47 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 2: Ford Foundation for her research, receiving an honorable mention. She's 48 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 2: held an adjunct professor appointment at the NYU Stern Business School, 49 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:51,800 Speaker 2: and currently she's an asset wealth management researcher at JP 50 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:53,920 Speaker 2: Morgan Chase. And I don't know, just like in her 51 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 2: spare time or whatever, she's founded this company. It's called Kellela, 52 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:00,640 Speaker 2: which is a lifestyle brand that's based in Brooklyn, where 53 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 2: she curates bespoke West and East African travel experiences and 54 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 2: has elevated the plantain to the platform. It's always deserved 55 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 2: by creative Vegan. And she's here on Brown Ambition because 56 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:19,799 Speaker 2: duh have you heard her bio? If I'm not getting 57 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 2: doctor lay on my podcast? What are we doing? What 58 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 2: are we doing wrong? Brann and bish Well, welcome to 59 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 2: the show, and congratulations on all of these milestones in 60 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:29,360 Speaker 2: your career. 61 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:33,079 Speaker 1: Oh many, Thank you so much. That was such a beautiful, 62 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 1: gracious intro. I appreciate it. It's awesome to be here in 63 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 1: chow Now. 64 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 2: I think what's more important for BA fan to know 65 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 2: is that she's actually at her brother's house right now 66 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 2: in the Midwest, babysitting for her three year old and 67 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 2: one year old? Is it niece and nephew. Yes, yes, 68 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 2: what a good auntie. We love it. 69 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 1: Listen, I gotta be gotta show up. 70 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 2: They got to show you from Brooklyn. They said you 71 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 2: better get on over here. 72 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 1: So it has been a whirl end. But so happy 73 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 1: to have this moment to talk with you. 74 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, So God, Like, where do we start? I 75 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 2: guess before we get into the book black capitalist, I 76 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 2: want you to define it for me, black capitalists, because 77 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:15,840 Speaker 2: I think I'm someone who I can talk about capitalism 78 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:19,040 Speaker 2: and capitalists. I have an uncle who's like, I'm a capitalist, 79 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 2: so I'm voting for Trump. We don't want to go there, 80 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:24,600 Speaker 2: but black capitalists, Like, why do those two words together 81 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:25,599 Speaker 2: make me feel weird? 82 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 1: Exactly? And it's often the case that many people think 83 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 1: of the term black capitalists as oxymeeronic, and so much 84 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 1: of the reason for that is when you look at 85 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 1: the creation of American capitalism and black people through the 86 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 1: implementation of legalized slavery. We built this capitalist system, but 87 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 1: we're never really allowed to be the beneficiaries of what 88 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:53,160 Speaker 1: we built. And so the idea of being a black 89 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 1: capitalist presents for many an identity crisis. It's like, how 90 00:04:56,880 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 1: can you hold affinity to a system that you've been 91 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 1: excluded from systematically, And so oftentimes when people define capitalism itself, 92 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 1: oftentimes that's very much kind of imbued with feelings of disgruntlement, 93 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:17,720 Speaker 1: a lot of financial anxiety, worry. People will talk about 94 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:20,919 Speaker 1: capitalism is the root of all evil, the white man's 95 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 1: way of keeping us down, all of these different ways 96 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:26,359 Speaker 1: in which people will define it. But for me, I 97 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 1: think what's really important, and part of the key argument 98 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 1: of the book is if we take capitalism as a 99 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:38,839 Speaker 1: political or economic system whereby private actors engage in economic 100 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 1: exchange for the purpose of yielding excess capital. In that sense, 101 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 1: anyone can be a capitalist or a private actor, and 102 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 1: that's both hopeful and also potentially problematic. Right hopeful in 103 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 1: the sense that we kind of take away this racialized 104 00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 1: aspects that we have around who the capitalist is, who 105 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 1: the labor is, and it kind of opens up new 106 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 1: potentials around Okay, how can we use the tools of 107 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:08,719 Speaker 1: capitalism to create new outcomes outside of the ones that 108 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:13,160 Speaker 1: we're so familiar with, namely being within the black community 109 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:16,839 Speaker 1: in that labor position and experiencing the harms of capitalism 110 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:20,720 Speaker 1: so deeply, whether it be exploitation, extraction, etc. But then, 111 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 1: of course we also know that when you look at 112 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 1: the racial wealth gap, who has predominantly been the capitalist, 113 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:29,160 Speaker 1: who has predominantly been the beneficiary of capitalism has been 114 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:32,920 Speaker 1: white people. And so when you then take black and 115 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 1: capitalists and you put it together overlaying that whole history 116 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:38,919 Speaker 1: that I kind of spoke to very quickly, then you 117 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:42,679 Speaker 1: have that kind of visceral emotional reaction of this doesn't 118 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:45,919 Speaker 1: quite sit right with me, you know, And so so 119 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:47,600 Speaker 1: much of the book and the work that I do 120 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 1: is around Okay, let's unpack all of this and then 121 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 1: let's get to a place of common ground and neutrality 122 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 1: about what is capitalism defined. But then also what I'm 123 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 1: offering about what black capitalists and what it means to 124 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 1: also black capitalism, which is definitionally to be a black 125 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 1: capitalist is to be someone who identifies as a black 126 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 1: person and strategically participates in the economy with the intent 127 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 1: to produce social good. So what's really important about that 128 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: definition is not just about how can you create profitability 129 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:22,760 Speaker 1: by strategically positioning yourself and participating in the economy, but 130 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 1: it is that other really important part around social good 131 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 1: and that kind of consistent orientation to community, which is 132 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 1: what allows us to then rethink how the tools of 133 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:35,560 Speaker 1: capitalism can be used outside of what we've seen them 134 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 1: be used for. And that's similar to black capitalism, which 135 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 1: is very' agnostic, how anybody, private actors, individual are collective 136 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:48,119 Speaker 1: can resituate themselves within capitalism with the intention to create 137 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 1: social good. If you take a framework like black feminism, 138 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 1: you don't have to be a black person to practice 139 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 1: black feminism, but it is kind of an orientation around 140 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 1: how you show up in support of others in supportive 141 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 1: community as well, and creating a distinction just in that 142 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 1: kind of example, to be a black feminist versus practicing 143 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 1: black feminism. Similar concept to how you can someone can 144 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 1: be a black capitalist, but then also collective can practice 145 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 1: black capitalism. 146 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 2: So that's all really interesting. I'm wondering, like, when you 147 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 2: talk about the importance of creating social good to be 148 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 2: a black capitalist? Does that social good need to impact us? Like? 149 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 2: Is it what the intent that seems important here? It's 150 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 2: like who who in the social structure? Are we like benefits? Yes? Sure? So? 151 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 2: Is this as simple as like, I mean, in an 152 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 2: ideal world where you've got a profitable business and then 153 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 2: you set up a nonprofit arm to then give back 154 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:50,960 Speaker 2: into the community or fund grants for other entrepreneurs? Is 155 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:55,840 Speaker 2: it dedicating a percentage of profits to certain causes that 156 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 2: benefit our communities? Is that the ideal that you're hoping 157 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 2: this book can help shine a light on. 158 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 1: Yes, in some ways. And I think what's so beautiful 159 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 1: about black capitalism is that it can be experienced and 160 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 1: practiced in so many different ways. Just as we know 161 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:14,840 Speaker 1: blackness is not a monolith and it's not a monolithic experience, 162 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 1: the practice of black capitalism is also not a monolithic experience. 163 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 1: And so the definition that I offer in the framework 164 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 1: is robust enough to account for all the different positions 165 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:27,560 Speaker 1: that we might sit in in our daily lives. Some 166 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:30,440 Speaker 1: of us might be in corporate America, like myself, And 167 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 1: so the questions then become within the seat that I'm 168 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 1: seated in what are the opportunities or the access channels 169 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:40,239 Speaker 1: that I can create for other folks in the institution 170 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 1: outside of it, And I can give examples for how 171 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 1: we might think about that. If you're an entrepreneur, some 172 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:47,960 Speaker 1: of what you just described those are beautiful examples of 173 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 1: how you can reposition yourself within the economy to still 174 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 1: create a profitable business. But then also keeping in mind 175 00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:58,439 Speaker 1: it goes hand in hand how you create social good 176 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:00,720 Speaker 1: as well. I think it's the case that we all 177 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 1: have a slice of this capitalist pie, and it's really 178 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:07,320 Speaker 1: up to us how we're going to use it and 179 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:10,320 Speaker 1: how we're also going to feed each other in that 180 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 1: kind of experience, And so regardless of where you sit, 181 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:15,760 Speaker 1: there's always kind of a part to play. And I 182 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 1: think that it's less about adjudicating when is enough or 183 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:22,680 Speaker 1: how much social goods should I do, but really from 184 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 1: just having it as a mindset kind of like a 185 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:27,719 Speaker 1: way of life in terms of this is an ethos, 186 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:30,600 Speaker 1: a kind of consistent practice and orientation that I have 187 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 1: around always asking myself how can I be in service 188 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:37,679 Speaker 1: of community, which also requires an abundance mindset, a belief 189 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 1: and a trust in each other and that we can 190 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 1: really only get free through being in community with each other. 191 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 1: And so those are the kind of core building blocks 192 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 1: to then really practice this and create effective change in 193 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:51,480 Speaker 1: the long term. 194 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 2: I mean, it just sounds very similar to the ethos 195 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:57,199 Speaker 2: of Brown ambition, which is we're not just building wealth 196 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 2: because it's fun to get rich. It's how can we 197 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:04,439 Speaker 2: use our economic power to influence change, to bring about change, 198 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 2: to protect ourselves, to protect our families, to build generational wealth, 199 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:11,319 Speaker 2: all those things. There's really like an empowerment element to it, 200 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 2: which sometimes I think you need because capitalism, ambition, these 201 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 2: are two words that tend to drop feelings of like, oh, 202 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:21,080 Speaker 2: like you're just selfish, you're greedy, you're looking out for 203 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:24,319 Speaker 2: number one. But it's like, no, let's look at these 204 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:27,840 Speaker 2: terms and show that they can bring about good. It 205 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 2: just matters like who's controlling it. As long as you 206 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 2: control the wealth, you can have so much influence. One 207 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:36,080 Speaker 2: of the things that I when I was kind of 208 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 2: reading through some of I know you talk to black 209 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 2: professionals who are working in corporate America, And one of 210 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:44,839 Speaker 2: the stories that resonated with me was the guy who said, 211 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:47,200 Speaker 2: and he works in banking, I believe and he said 212 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:49,319 Speaker 2: that he feels like he's a spy a little bit, 213 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 2: like they think he's one of them. And by one 214 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:56,280 Speaker 2: of them, I mean like we's kind of code switching. 215 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 2: We all do that. We show up to work, we talk, 216 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 2: we talk real good, and we make everybody feel good 217 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:04,640 Speaker 2: that we have a black person on their team, but 218 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 2: like never exactly like owning our blackness necessarily because that 219 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 2: might be a little threatening, but just being there in 220 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 2: the mix. But at the same time, he's like, but 221 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 2: I've never forgotten who I am. I know why I'm here. 222 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 2: And it just resonated with me so much because in 223 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 2: my corporate career, when I got to a position where 224 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:23,840 Speaker 2: I was hiring someone, oh yeah, I mentioned that I 225 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:26,080 Speaker 2: work with someone whose last name is Lia. I know 226 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:29,320 Speaker 2: another LIAI shout out to Brittany, and she was the 227 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:32,200 Speaker 2: first reporter that I was ever able to hire. Once 228 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 2: I became a manager, it mattered to me that my 229 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 2: first hire was a black woman. I went on to 230 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 2: get the privilege to put together a team that ended 231 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 2: up including like I think, thirty staff and a bunch 232 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 2: of contractors, and I used to say to myself, I'm 233 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:50,839 Speaker 2: like a spy, Like nobody knows I'm taking all the 234 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 2: money that they're giving me for these hires, and I 235 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 2: am going and finding people of color and women like 236 00:12:56,760 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 2: and I just I love that there. I want more 237 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 2: of us to think of it that way, all here undercover, 238 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:09,200 Speaker 2: to create that change in incremental ways, like from within. 239 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that. Because also after I graduated from college, 240 00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 1: you know, so many of my peers went on to 241 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 1: more like altruistic careers, and I faced quite a bit 242 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 1: of criticism around like, oh, you're going to Goldman Sachs, 243 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:27,959 Speaker 1: like that's the belly of the beast, Like what's she 244 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:30,000 Speaker 1: going to go do there? You know? And also coming 245 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 1: from my undergraduate studies which was seeped in social and 246 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 1: cultural analysis and really understanding the harms of these structures, 247 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:41,560 Speaker 1: generally capitalist structures. But for me, it's like it really 248 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 1: matters the orientation that you have when you're in those spaces, 249 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:48,160 Speaker 1: because surely, yes, you can exist in these corporate spaces 250 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 1: that people have all of this criticism around, But if 251 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:55,680 Speaker 1: you have these subversive intentions like alex as you mentioned, 252 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 1: that makes a difference. It's like the how and the 253 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 1: why can really shift outcomes. Because I think for him, 254 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:04,199 Speaker 1: what was so important was like how can he channel 255 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 1: resources to his community by being at the firm that 256 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:10,559 Speaker 1: he was, similar to how you're thinking about how can 257 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 1: I create a pipeline of access for people to have 258 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:17,080 Speaker 1: space in these spaces where otherwise maybe they wouldn't be 259 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:20,520 Speaker 1: considered or overlooked or whatever it is. And so I 260 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 1: think when you shift our mindset, it's like, Oh, there's 261 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 1: a whole new set of opportunities I think that arise 262 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 1: in that, and that to me is like the efficacy 263 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 1: and the potential to create new outcomes. 264 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, especially at a time like this where that's like 265 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 2: DEI attacked, it almost makes me regret the resurgence or 266 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 2: the surge of DEI as a term as an institution, 267 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 2: like as a categorization in corporate America, like in the 268 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 2: summer of twenty twenty, and all of a sudden, it's like, oh, 269 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 2: we're going to show that we are on board by 270 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 2: creating these DEI rolls or teams and initiatives. It almost 271 00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 2: like gave a target. So the way that we were 272 00:14:58,000 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 2: kind of being subversive and like the way that I 273 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 2: was being sneaky about it. I'm practicing d I in 274 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 2: my hiring, but I ain't telling nobody is that, you 275 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 2: know what I mean? But it's like when we name it, 276 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:09,080 Speaker 2: we kind of give them a target. And I think 277 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 2: that's what's happening. And so you're seeing now it's like, well, 278 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 2: let's just get rid of all these DEI programs. And 279 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:16,080 Speaker 2: I think that, you know, what we're talking about is 280 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 2: like a reminder that if you're still like we're a 281 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 2: lot of people were in corporate like, you can still 282 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:23,840 Speaker 2: have an impact even if you're not under that umbrella, 283 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 2: maybe even more so because we can sneak by. Yes, yes, 284 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 2: you know that's the Beverly Hills cop know what's the 285 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 2: emission impossible? 286 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 1: Oh? Is that one? 287 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 2: No, I don't know. James Bond, that's okay. Maybe if 288 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:46,680 Speaker 2: Lushana Lynch was the new Black James Bond like she 289 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 2: should have been, oh I would know. 290 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:54,720 Speaker 1: But I agree with you. I think it creates and 291 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 1: in so many ways I think d E and I 292 00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 1: I heard it spoken this way really well at the 293 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 1: Black Economic Alliance Summit that I went to recently. EI 294 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 1: being really a consolation prize. It isn't the end goal 295 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 1: for us by any means, and so I think it's 296 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 1: really kind of forcing us as we live through this 297 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 1: moment to think about one, all we have are ourselves 298 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 1: and the places that we find ourselves in. It's like, 299 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 1: how do we continue the work that so many of 300 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 1: us have already been doing and now maybe without the support, 301 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 1: but with certainly the scrutiny of this moment and how 302 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 1: we're experiencing that. But I think that the impact can 303 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 1: still happen. When I first joined JP Morgan Chase, I 304 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 1: was the Community Impact team, and that team was responsible 305 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:38,920 Speaker 1: for the thirty billion dollar racial equity commitment that came 306 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:42,120 Speaker 1: out in twenty twenty after George Floyd's murder, where the 307 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 1: firm made very strong commitments around how it was going 308 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 1: to really try to close this racial wealth gap. I 309 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 1: was on that team starting in twenty twenty two and 310 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 1: really kind of a watch from the inside the kind 311 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 1: of process and the journey of a Dee and I 312 00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:01,280 Speaker 1: effort and initiative go invoke and out of vogue within 313 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:04,679 Speaker 1: a period of time. And that was so striking to 314 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:06,720 Speaker 1: me to see that to be a d and I 315 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 1: practitioner as a black woman, you know, really in service 316 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 1: of our black and brown clients, and what that moment meant. 317 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 1: Layer on the affirmative action ruling that came out around 318 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 1: that period as well, and it kind of really shifted, 319 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:25,679 Speaker 1: not even just kind of the internal stakeholder conversations that 320 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:28,120 Speaker 1: were happening around the work that we were doing, which 321 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:31,359 Speaker 1: was already challenging because here you are trying to create 322 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:34,879 Speaker 1: new ways of working within the business, but now there's 323 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 1: this kind of question around legal prudence and due diligence 324 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 1: to make sure that we're not making a firm liable 325 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 1: to anything created another layer of complexity, and that prompt 326 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 1: in my own kind of professional journey of what are 327 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:51,399 Speaker 1: other places I could find myself in? Ultimately wound up 328 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:54,679 Speaker 1: in ass wealth management. The work doesn't end. It's like 329 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:57,520 Speaker 1: I spend a lot of my time still thinking about 330 00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 1: how can I create new outcomes for our black clients 331 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:03,840 Speaker 1: within the wealth management space. 332 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 2: A couple of things I want to talk about. What's 333 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 2: your take on a couple of things? One in the 334 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 2: news right now? Of course, in my mind, I'm like 335 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:14,359 Speaker 2: the met Gala to display I feel like of black 336 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:17,639 Speaker 2: capitalism at work with the theme this year, and I 337 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:19,679 Speaker 2: would love to get your take on it. Do you 338 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:22,359 Speaker 2: think that that type of initiative is helpful? You have 339 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 2: like this largely white fashion industry who's obviously profited off 340 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:32,879 Speaker 2: of our culture in so many ways, but still you 341 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 2: see so many few designers of color reach these prominent 342 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 2: levels as other mainstream brands and get as much access 343 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:44,440 Speaker 2: to the resources as other brands and other fashion houses. 344 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 2: But then you have Vogue kind of centering blackness in 345 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:52,640 Speaker 2: the theme for this year, and Black Dandyism really celebrating 346 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:57,800 Speaker 2: tailoring and the influence of a very specific time in 347 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 2: black culture in the fashion landscape, and which has then 348 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 2: given them this huge platform to spotlight black designers and 349 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:08,399 Speaker 2: really celebrate that work. What's your perspective on that. 350 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, I'm 351 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 1: always going to be in supportive of black people getting 352 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 1: the visibility they deserve the money. But at the same time, 353 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:23,440 Speaker 1: I think it's important that we not rely on these 354 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 1: white institutions to be the savior or the means by 355 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:33,280 Speaker 1: which we create access for ourselves. It's like great, taking 356 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:36,160 Speaker 1: all the resources in whatever manner they come from, who 357 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:39,200 Speaker 1: they come but I think what's important is, like, especially 358 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:41,800 Speaker 1: a lot of those moments, they don't have the level 359 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 1: of consistency or sustainability. It becomes a one and done unfortunately, 360 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 1: or it becomes something of the zeitgeist. And so all 361 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:53,160 Speaker 1: of the more reason that when we're talking about sustainability 362 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:56,199 Speaker 1: and what's really going to hold this down in the 363 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 1: long term, it really needs to come from us. And 364 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 1: so I think it's always how can we anchor on 365 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 1: the tools that we can use for ourselves, create those 366 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:07,479 Speaker 1: kind of systems for ourselves. And sure it's like if 367 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:11,440 Speaker 1: folks want to shine a light amazing, especially because those 368 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:15,400 Speaker 1: spaces have capital and excess and all these other privileges 369 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:17,399 Speaker 1: that come with that. It's like leverage it. I'm all 370 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:20,719 Speaker 1: about how can we leverage and service of our community. 371 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 1: And so I think keeping that kind of maybe sobering 372 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:26,880 Speaker 1: perspective in mind that we never know how long those 373 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 1: opportunities will last. But what we do know is we 374 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 1: have us at the end of the day, and so 375 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:32,439 Speaker 1: we have to make sure that we're locked in on 376 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:35,320 Speaker 1: that and we're good and anything else is I think 377 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:36,199 Speaker 1: additive to that. 378 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:39,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, target, My perspective is like we just 379 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 2: all got it, and I don't even think we needed 380 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 2: Al Sharpton, but like shout out out for you know, 381 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:47,119 Speaker 2: doing reverend for putting his stamp on it. But this 382 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 2: like national agreement among black consumers that we don't f 383 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:53,639 Speaker 2: with no MO. Do you talk about other examples of 384 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:55,919 Speaker 2: these types of like collective boycotting and how we can 385 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:59,879 Speaker 2: actually have an impact. You think about lunch counter boycotts 386 00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:02,800 Speaker 2: and obviously the boycotts during the Civil rights movement, But 387 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:05,200 Speaker 2: is this an example of how we can be black 388 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 2: capitalists and using it? 389 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:10,639 Speaker 1: Yes, one thousand percent. I think what's so important is 390 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:15,719 Speaker 1: that oftentimes when we collectively think about executing our agency 391 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 1: or the moments we feel most stagantic is when we're voting. 392 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:23,200 Speaker 1: And that's not something that only needs to happen every 393 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:26,919 Speaker 1: four years, every two years, whenever there's an election. We 394 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 1: vote every day with our wallet, every single day, multiple 395 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 1: times a day, and that is as powerful a vote, 396 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 1: if not more able, and really am the service of 397 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 1: getting us the things that we want, creating the outcomes 398 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:43,119 Speaker 1: that we're wanting, and so so often and because of 399 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 1: just the you know, the structures that have been in 400 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:48,439 Speaker 1: place that have limited the access that we've had to 401 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:53,879 Speaker 1: systems and opportunities around ownership, consumerism has really been the 402 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,720 Speaker 1: avenue that's been available to us. And so when you 403 00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 1: think about that. It's often been from a place of 404 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:00,959 Speaker 1: a lack of agency. See, it's like, oh, this is 405 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 1: what we've been relegated to, this is what we've been given, 406 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:05,960 Speaker 1: and so this is how we'll participate in economy. But 407 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:09,959 Speaker 1: there's still agency to be realized even in a consumerist approach. 408 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:13,160 Speaker 1: It's like I choose where I will spend my dollars. 409 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:16,119 Speaker 1: And so I think what's so beautiful about this moment, 410 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 1: which I think is new, is that we have struggled 411 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:22,919 Speaker 1: to really get to a unified place and really speaking 412 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 1: from one voice when it comes to how we use 413 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 1: our money within the community. And so you know, if 414 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 1: people don't want to, I'll put it this way, whether 415 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 1: it be allies or not. I think white people have 416 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:38,439 Speaker 1: an incredible ability to consume a lot of qualitative data 417 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 1: about racism without changing their behaviors. But then when they 418 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:47,160 Speaker 1: are presented with the effects of economics, like not having 419 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 1: access to our capital in different ways, that creates a 420 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 1: new paradigm where okay, we're listening in new ways, and 421 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:59,159 Speaker 1: so I think that's really important to keep in mind. 422 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:02,160 Speaker 1: And the more that we can come and connect from 423 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:05,159 Speaker 1: a place of unification in that, the better and so 424 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 1: I think that's so important, especially because that hasn't always 425 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 1: been the case. And so even when you think about 426 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:13,120 Speaker 1: this from a global context and you want to say 427 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:15,719 Speaker 1: something like pan Africanism. One of the people that I 428 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 1: interview in the book, he is based in Ghana. He 429 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:22,359 Speaker 1: has an investment company and has built out a company 430 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:25,919 Speaker 1: really focused on technology at the center of healthcare and 431 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,439 Speaker 1: real estate across the African continent, and so much of 432 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:31,919 Speaker 1: what he says is what's really important is when you 433 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:36,920 Speaker 1: think about how countries negotiate with each other. It's a 434 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:42,480 Speaker 1: very different paradigm for Ghana right as a country to negotiate, 435 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 1: you know, political terms with say the United States. But 436 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:48,920 Speaker 1: what's different is if you have fifty four African countries 437 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 1: with how many of our people, how much additional resources 438 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:56,159 Speaker 1: in capital per person accounted for in that context to 439 00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 1: then be negotiating terms. It's like when you move from 440 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:02,160 Speaker 1: a place unification it creates new outcomes, and I think 441 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:04,200 Speaker 1: we're seeing that in this moment, but we can also 442 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 1: see it in a really global scale as well. It's 443 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 1: not just situated in an American context. And so I'm excited 444 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 1: about that, but I still think there's work to be 445 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 1: done when it comes to how we talk about consumerism, 446 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,440 Speaker 1: ownership and relating it back to our practice of capitalism 447 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:22,879 Speaker 1: and really reorienting our mindset around how we can be 448 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 1: capitalists and participate as capitalists within capitalism but from a 449 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 1: different place, and create new outcomes in that process. 450 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:32,760 Speaker 2: So, with a little bit of time we have left, 451 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:35,439 Speaker 2: I want to talk about your career because it's so fascinating. 452 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:38,439 Speaker 2: I mean, it's very multi layered. You're working for this 453 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,920 Speaker 2: giant bank right now, Jamie Diamond said something about DEI 454 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 2: that wasn't great. How do you balance working for such 455 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 2: a big brand? Are they cool with this book tour? Like? 456 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:49,160 Speaker 2: Do they know about your book? 457 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:52,400 Speaker 1: You know, I had to get the book approved actually, 458 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:56,879 Speaker 1: and especially especially because I worked on the community impact 459 00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:01,040 Speaker 1: team responsible for other racial equity commitment. So and I 460 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 1: write about that. 461 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:02,360 Speaker 2: I write about what. 462 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:04,720 Speaker 1: It meant for me to be on that team during 463 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:07,960 Speaker 1: that moment and to see the swift changes and some 464 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:10,879 Speaker 1: of the challenges of being at a bank and trying 465 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,160 Speaker 1: to do racial equity work. And so they're like, oh, 466 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,360 Speaker 1: we need to see what you said. So they're very 467 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:20,320 Speaker 1: much aware. But it's interesting because I think, and especially 468 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 1: I learned it when I was at Goldman. These institutions 469 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:26,960 Speaker 1: we know are not perfect by any means, But then 470 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 1: for me, similar to what we were talking about before, 471 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 1: it's like, how can I use this in service of 472 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 1: myself and of my community. I know that, especially when 473 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:37,879 Speaker 1: I was in grad school, I thought I was going 474 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:41,159 Speaker 1: to become an academic, and I quickly became disillusioned with 475 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:44,560 Speaker 1: that idea, just seeing the quality of life, the challenges 476 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 1: that come especially with being a black woman in academia, 477 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 1: the standards that we were held to, the lack of 478 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:52,880 Speaker 1: promotion we get so often, and of course so much 479 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 1: of that translates into corporate America as well, but just 480 00:25:55,680 --> 00:26:01,680 Speaker 1: opportunities to acquire resources for me personally, just more opportunity there. 481 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:03,880 Speaker 1: And so I said, Okay, if I know that I'm 482 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 1: going to make that trade off, it's like what are 483 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,680 Speaker 1: the what's the what's the dance that I'm always playing? 484 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:11,440 Speaker 1: And that's really what it is for me. Where it's 485 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:14,080 Speaker 1: you know, it's not a perfect place, but I have 486 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:16,439 Speaker 1: been able to find a really good team of people 487 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:19,680 Speaker 1: that I genuinely enjoy working with. And then of course 488 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,320 Speaker 1: I also have my motives of how can I create 489 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:26,080 Speaker 1: new outcomes for black folks within the context of wealth 490 00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:29,960 Speaker 1: management and use pol do there exactly? As a researcher, Yeah, 491 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:34,359 Speaker 1: So I cover within wealth management the research that allows 492 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:38,640 Speaker 1: us to create mental models around our clients that then 493 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 1: informs the kinds of products that we create and ultimately 494 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,439 Speaker 1: market to our clients. And so within wealth management, we 495 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:48,359 Speaker 1: have advice services where someone might say I want to 496 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,199 Speaker 1: work with a financial advisor, and there are different product 497 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 1: offerings for that. And we also have self directed investing 498 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:57,879 Speaker 1: online investing where people can kind of self service and 499 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,119 Speaker 1: we have a product for that. And so I and 500 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:02,120 Speaker 1: a lot of time I'll go to people's homes, I'll 501 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:04,119 Speaker 1: interview them, I'll talk to them, hey, like, how do 502 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 1: you think about wealth? How do you think about investing? 503 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,280 Speaker 1: How has it changed over time? I, as a researcher, 504 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,719 Speaker 1: listening and gathering all of this data across all of 505 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 1: these different people that I speak to then say to 506 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 1: our product partners and our other stakeholders, this should be 507 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 1: the direction with which we strategically think about the buildout 508 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:24,880 Speaker 1: of the products that we have. So that's the kind 509 00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:27,240 Speaker 1: of work that I do. And is unsurprising is that 510 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:30,680 Speaker 1: when you're talking with a bunch of really affluent, high 511 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:34,280 Speaker 1: net worth folks. The majority of them historically have been 512 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:36,680 Speaker 1: white men, And so when I say I'm going to 513 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 1: people's homes, is usually white men's homes that I'm going to, 514 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:41,680 Speaker 1: and I'm talking to them. But I'm always thinking through 515 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:45,720 Speaker 1: how can I create opportunities to interview black folks, to 516 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:48,439 Speaker 1: bring them into the office so people can see them, 517 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:52,199 Speaker 1: to see that black wealth is also a reality, and 518 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:56,920 Speaker 1: to create just considerations for different experiences that have been 519 00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 1: really just anchored on this one experience within the business. 520 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:02,959 Speaker 1: And so that for me is always my kind of 521 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 1: call to action while I'm in these spaces that are 522 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 1: make no mistake giving me resources to live the life 523 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:11,959 Speaker 1: that I live, But it's really how can I use 524 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,120 Speaker 1: it in service of more than just myself? 525 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:16,399 Speaker 2: You know, well, thank you. I know we have a 526 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 2: hard stop. I'm going to shout out the in the 527 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:22,399 Speaker 2: in the show notes. Although we didn't get you have 528 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 2: to come back. We can talk about your your passion 529 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:30,439 Speaker 2: project with Kelly. But doctor Rachel Lay, thank you so much. 530 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:33,400 Speaker 2: Congratulations on the book be a fam Go check it out. 531 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:37,359 Speaker 2: The book is Black Capitalist a blueprint for what is possible? 532 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 2: It's a great it's just a great book to get 533 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:43,600 Speaker 2: you thinking and maybe like help help us all become 534 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,959 Speaker 2: little corporate spies, because it matters, it really does. All right, 535 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 2: go be anti anti because for real, that's the most 536 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 2: I learned about you. I'm like, oh, you're good people. 537 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 1: Attah No, this has been a pleasure. 538 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 2: Six