1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Behind the Police, a production of I Heart 2 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: Radio Depressing Ship. I mean hello, I'm Robert Evans, and 3 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 1: this is Behind the Police, the podcast that's normally Behind 4 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:20,680 Speaker 1: the Bastards, but is for this week, last week, and 5 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 1: next week, giving the tailed history about the you know, 6 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 1: the cops and such, the systemic manifestation of white supremacy. Yeah, 7 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 1: and bastard. Yeah. And the voice that you heard that's 8 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 1: not mine, justin is Jason Petty, better known as the 9 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 1: hip hop artist propaganda. Jason, how are you continuing to 10 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:48,800 Speaker 1: do pulling a ham sandwich out the damn cabinet? There 11 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 1: we go, there we go. I don't yeah, I'm sorry, no, no, 12 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 1: it's been hours, guys, there hasn't been enough freestyling on 13 00:00:57,160 --> 00:01:02,280 Speaker 1: this podcast because I can't, No one's and shouldn't yeah, 14 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:06,199 Speaker 1: and and and I should not go right to something 15 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 1: that would be incredible, that would be very fun you 16 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:13,319 Speaker 1: and like Glue Network asked annalists like you guys, just 17 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 1: do a song and then just all of a sudden, 18 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 1: Robert Evans just wraps. Oh, man, if I had any 19 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 1: musical talent that would be that would be cool. But yeah, 20 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 1: we all have our gifts and My gift is reading 21 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 1: things that are really depressing for I don't know, another 22 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 1: ninety minutes or so, um, which is a kind of music. 23 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 1: But yeah, anyway, Uh, we don't talk nearly enough about lynching, 24 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 1: um today and and that's starting to change because of 25 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:45,080 Speaker 1: the recent you know, lynchings. I think we're at six 26 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 1: right now possible lynchings. Um. But lynching has a long 27 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: and well, proud is the wrong word. I should have 28 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 1: put proud in there. But it's a long history in 29 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 1: the United States, and the history of lynching in the 30 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 1: US is not entirely a racist what I mentioned this before, 31 00:01:57,520 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 1: but actually the term came out of like people hanging 32 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 1: British tax collectors by their thumbs and stuff. Um. Yeah, 33 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:09,359 Speaker 1: so like the first lynching victims were British people, um, 34 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:11,840 Speaker 1: and kind of had it coming because they were they 35 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:16,519 Speaker 1: were being dicks colonialistics. Um. Obviously nobody thinks of British 36 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 1: people and they think about lynching victims. Um. It's also 37 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 1: fair like worth noting that during the period where lynching 38 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:24,079 Speaker 1: was most common in the United States, um, like the 39 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:27,080 Speaker 1: late eighteen hundreds to the mid nineteen hundreds, Um, not 40 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 1: every person lynched was black. Although the vast majority were um. 41 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 1: Lynching was used to enforce racial terror from whites against blacks, 42 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 1: but it was also a really common method of what 43 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 1: we'd call, you know, thinking back to our first episode, 44 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:43,079 Speaker 1: public spirit law enforcement, you know, communities dealing with people 45 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 1: that they saw as problematic, some of whom were surely guilty, 46 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 1: some of them probably who certainly weren't. I found one 47 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 1: analysis of four thousand, four hundred and sixty seven lynching 48 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 1: victims from eighteen eighty three to ninety one. Four thousand 49 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:59,239 Speaker 1: and twenty seven victims were men, were women, in three 50 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:03,079 Speaker 1: forty were of unknown or more accurately, nobody wrote down 51 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 1: what the gender was. Three thousand, two hundred and sixty 52 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 1: five of these four thousand, four hundred sixty seven victims 53 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 1: were black, one thousand and eighty two were white, seventy 54 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: one were Mexican, and thirty eight were American Indian, while 55 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:17,400 Speaker 1: ten were Chinese and one was Japanese. All of these 56 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:19,799 Speaker 1: numbers are, of course, likely somewhat low, because we'll never 57 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:24,359 Speaker 1: know the total number of people who were lynching victims UM. Now, 58 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 1: historians who studied lynching generally divided into three separate regimes. 59 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 1: The Wild West, where lynching was mostly white people lynching 60 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 1: a lot of other white people in areas where there 61 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 1: just wasn't law enforcement in a way, so like this 62 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 1: was like how you dealt with people who were a problem. Um. 63 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 1: And then there was the slavery regime, which was found 64 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 1: in former slave states were lynching existed as a form 65 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 1: of social control against black people. And then a smaller 66 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 1: regime of lynching on the Texas Mexican border where Latinos 67 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 1: were lynched by white Texans. So there's a kind of 68 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 1: the three broad areas that most lynchings during the lynching 69 00:03:57,320 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 1: period in the U S history kind of come come 70 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 1: down to. Uh. Um. Now, in all of these cases, 71 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 1: law enforcement was about as likely to support any given 72 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 1: lynching as it was to oppose it. Uh. There are 73 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 1: many cases and the lynchings of white and black people 74 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 1: alike where police officers would just hand over their keys 75 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 1: to an angry mob to let them in the jail. 76 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 1: Sometimes this was due to the officers supporting the crowd's efforts. 77 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 1: A lot of times it was simple pragmatism, because a 78 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 1: ton of lynch mobs would burn down jails when the 79 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 1: police resisted them. Um. So some of this was just like, well, 80 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 1: I don't want to die. Yeah, there's one of me, 81 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 1: and I got a real shitty six gun, like okay, yeah, 82 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:36,480 Speaker 1: this worth it? Yeah. There there was a lot of that. 83 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:40,239 Speaker 1: Um yeah yeah. Um. Now, this was often the case 84 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 1: police kind of backing away because they didn't want the 85 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:44,480 Speaker 1: jail to get burned down and to get killed themselves. 86 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:48,160 Speaker 1: This was often the case with lynchings in Oklahoma. Oklahoma's 87 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 1: fucking loved vigilante violence, still kind of do. But like, 88 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:57,360 Speaker 1: oh man, historians who study this are like Oklahoma, those 89 00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 1: are like the yeah. Um. And this was particularly the 90 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:08,040 Speaker 1: case in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Now, the Sooner State was in 91 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 1: general a big lynching state. It was number eleven in 92 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 1: the nation for lynchings, and Oklahoma was famous for having 93 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:15,359 Speaker 1: a public that loved taking justice into its own hands. 94 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 1: We're gonna talk about the Tulsa race riot of nine 95 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 1: in a bit and the burning a black Law Street, um, 96 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:24,160 Speaker 1: Wall Street and on Law Street. Um yeah. And and 97 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 1: obviously this is in the consciousness of a lot more 98 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:29,159 Speaker 1: white folks recently because the TV show Watchman featured it. 99 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:32,160 Speaker 1: But the year before that all happened a mob of 100 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:35,680 Speaker 1: white Tulson's rushed the county courthouse to lynch a prisoner, 101 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:39,040 Speaker 1: a white prisoner. The local sheriff's department did nothing, and 102 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 1: the local police were supportive. The chief called the lynching 103 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 1: of real benefit to Tulsa and the vicinity, but the 104 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:47,160 Speaker 1: sheriff actually got fired for kind of well you're not fired, 105 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:50,320 Speaker 1: like we're called for standing down, uh to this lynching. 106 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 1: And again, historians will often note that prior to the 107 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 1: race riot or racist riot of nineteen Tulsa had relatively 108 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:02,240 Speaker 1: minimal history of mass violence from white people against black people. Right, 109 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:05,039 Speaker 1: We're not gonna say it was like congenial friendly relations 110 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:09,560 Speaker 1: between the races, but like the racist riot in ninety 111 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 1: one was really it was shocking to a lot of 112 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 1: people because yet hadn't happened before ul Yeah, and and 113 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:17,839 Speaker 1: if you think about it, like it's logical because the 114 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 1: black community had time to develop infrastructure and flourish and 115 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:24,719 Speaker 1: stuff like that, because they're relatively just like, look, you 116 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 1: stay over there, we stay over here, we'll figure this out. 117 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 1: And yeah. One of the kind of actually one of 118 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 1: the precipitating factors of that is that like in the 119 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 1: weeks before the racist riots, some like local white preachers 120 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 1: and stuff. Had started getting very very angry about the 121 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:40,040 Speaker 1: fact that white people were starting to hang out with 122 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:43,240 Speaker 1: black people in parts of town and like developing friendships 123 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:45,720 Speaker 1: and like using it like and that was like they 124 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:48,919 Speaker 1: were like, this has to stop. Yeah, it's like the 125 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 1: weird part of like the ven diagram of like racism 126 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: and capitalism and just normal friendship to where you're like, 127 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 1: I don't know, this rest the run is just it's 128 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 1: good food. So I came down here. Yeah, they're way 129 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 1: better at my Yeah, yeah, it's better. It turns out, 130 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 1: contrary to what my uncle Dave told me, that's a 131 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 1: nice lady, that's a nice food networks here. I don't know. 132 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 1: It's kind of cool. It's good food, it's good company. 133 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 1: I don't understand the problem. You know. I'm starting to 134 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:26,680 Speaker 1: think racism might not be the right call. I'm starting 135 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 1: to think maybe we benefit from having these folks in 136 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 1: our community. Now now, now we're time to shoot, I guess. So. Yeah. So, 137 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 1: in the years after World War Two, large numbers of 138 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 1: veterans of both races had come back to Tulsa and 139 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 1: armed themselves in fear of escalating interracial tensions in Muskogee. 140 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 1: In nineteen sixteen, an armed black crowd had stopped a lynching. 141 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 1: In May of nineteen one, prior to the Big Racist Riot, 142 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 1: an armed group of black citizens had again stopped the 143 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:56,800 Speaker 1: lynching of a black man for an alleged rape. Now 144 00:07:56,800 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 1: about lynchings of black men nationwide were justified because the 145 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 1: crowd accused the black man of rape or sexual assault 146 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 1: in some way. Now, only about two percent of incarcerated 147 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 1: black people nationwidehead were actually convicted of rape, So we 148 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 1: can assume that the vast majority of these lynchings um 149 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:18,760 Speaker 1: were unjust right um because the anyway what occurred, and 150 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 1: Tulsa later in reinforces this suggestion. On Monday, a young 151 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 1: black man named Dick Rowland gotten to an elevator that 152 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 1: also contained a young white woman. We will never know 153 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:32,560 Speaker 1: exactly what happened. The most common story here is that 154 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 1: he likely tripped and bumped into her and she freaked 155 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:37,439 Speaker 1: out and the police were called. There's a bunch of 156 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 1: different stories around this. Nobody knows what happened, but white 157 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 1: black guy walks into an elevator with a white woman. 158 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 1: White woman screams, black guy runs away. He gets tracked 159 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:49,440 Speaker 1: down and arrested by two officers, one of whom was black, 160 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 1: and these men were sheriff's deputies. So Dick wound up 161 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 1: in the care of the sheriff's office. And the sheriff 162 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:56,680 Speaker 1: was a guy named Williard McCullough. He'd gotten his job 163 00:08:56,720 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 1: as a result of the lynching of that white guy 164 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 1: a year earlier, which his predace sessor had let happened, 165 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:04,200 Speaker 1: and Willier didn't want to make the same mistake. So 166 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 1: a crowd of angry white folks formed outside the jail, 167 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 1: which is pretty much standard procedure in Oklahoma when a 168 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:11,720 Speaker 1: black man was accused of this kind of crime. The 169 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 1: police chief and again there's a police chief, and there's 170 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 1: a sheriff. The police chief, a guy named Gustafsson, warned 171 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:19,440 Speaker 1: the sheriff to take Roland out of town. H The 172 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:22,199 Speaker 1: sheriff refused, arguing that the kid was safer in jail 173 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:23,960 Speaker 1: than in an open car, and he may have been 174 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 1: right about that. The police chief felt that moving him 175 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:28,679 Speaker 1: out of town would disperse the crowd, and he may 176 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 1: have been right about that. Um, we don't know exactly 177 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 1: how it started, but you know, basically, a black crowd 178 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 1: with a lot of guns showed up next to the 179 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:38,199 Speaker 1: white crowd who had a lot of guns. And at 180 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 1: some point there was a struggle between an armed black 181 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 1: guy and a white guy and the black fella's gun 182 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 1: went off or he fired it again, we don't know. 183 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 1: But it turned into a giant, fucking mob of of 184 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 1: white rioters gutting down black people. Black people shooting back 185 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 1: in self defense. And it will continue to talk about 186 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 1: how it gets worse. This is not an episode about 187 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 1: the burning of Black Wall Street. We will have to 188 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 1: cover that in more detail one of these days. Like, Yeah, 189 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:02,680 Speaker 1: there are a couple of points I should make. Um, 190 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:04,840 Speaker 1: I will say this before you get to this point, 191 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:08,960 Speaker 1: like there's an interesting thing that happened there all the 192 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 1: way to Emmett Till and to like, um, this this 193 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 1: particular moment is like just this idea of like weaponizing 194 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 1: the white woman, you know, and um, in a in a, 195 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:28,200 Speaker 1: in a, it's just this weird mix of just how 196 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:32,079 Speaker 1: social and supremacy and stuff like that works where it's 197 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 1: like you can use her fear, you know that was 198 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 1: implanted in her. You know what I'm saying, uh, as 199 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 1: an excuse to carry out violence towards black men, right, 200 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:50,959 Speaker 1: and play the whole damsel and distress thing, you know 201 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 1: what I'm saying, and then them being their own white 202 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 1: women having their own versions of oppression, right and misogyny, 203 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:01,520 Speaker 1: being like, well, this is a way to get these 204 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 1: men to do something for me, like a position of 205 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 1: power which evolves into the Karen's you know what I'm saying. 206 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 1: But it's just essentially like just you're you're It's almost 207 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:18,839 Speaker 1: like yo, your oppressor has weaponized you, and now you've 208 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 1: become that, you know what I'm saying. So just the 209 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 1: like the awareness of just that, the mind scramble that 210 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:30,319 Speaker 1: which is it's like I said, it's your own unique thing, 211 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:32,680 Speaker 1: just this idea like the voice of the white woman. 212 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 1: You know, that's like there's there's history there, like Karen, 213 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 1: don't come out of nowhere, and but Karen, don't understand 214 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 1: that you're being leveraged, you know what I'm saying, to 215 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 1: carry out voices of of of violence. And then now 216 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 1: it's almost like now you're participating in that same violence, 217 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:53,720 Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. So like I don't know, 218 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 1: it's just such an interesting thing like how interlocking systems 219 00:11:57,640 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 1: of oppression work, you know what I mean, and like 220 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 1: and how it all like keeps power in the same place. 221 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:08,080 Speaker 1: Interlocking system. That's a really important term, um, because I 222 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 1: do think there is a tendency and a lot of 223 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:13,319 Speaker 1: groups to like, Oh, no, racism is rooted in capitalism. 224 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:16,600 Speaker 1: Racism is rooted in you know, religion, Racism is rooted 225 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:19,080 Speaker 1: in class, Racism rooted this or that. Racism is rooted 226 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:22,439 Speaker 1: has a lot of roots. It's like it's like a hedgerow. 227 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 1: That's why it's so hard to remove, Like you dynamite 228 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 1: like hedgerows by these gigantic, sometimes centuries old, like huge 229 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:33,319 Speaker 1: fucking plant walls that existed in the exists in a 230 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:35,960 Speaker 1: bunch of places, specifically like in France during World War Two. 231 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 1: They were used as like to stop tanks. And the 232 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:39,760 Speaker 1: only way to get rid of a fucking hedgerow, because 233 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:41,680 Speaker 1: there's so many roots and they're so deep and so tough, 234 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 1: is to fucking dynamite it, like up right. Yeah. Yeah. 235 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:49,960 Speaker 1: So again, this is not an episode about the burning 236 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 1: up Black Wall Street and Tulsa, but there are a 237 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:54,960 Speaker 1: couple of points I should make about Tulsa. In this period, Uh, 238 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 1: it was unusual for having a large organized black community 239 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:01,079 Speaker 1: that controlled a really sizeable section of Town, Greenwood, Um, 240 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 1: and that you know black Wall Street is it was 241 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 1: called had its own banks, its own theaters, of vibrant 242 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 1: business community, good schools, and this relative prosperity was really 243 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:12,079 Speaker 1: unusual for black communities in the South, which is why 244 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:14,560 Speaker 1: it was called black Wall Street. Another thing I should 245 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 1: note is what historian Carol Anderson wrote in her book 246 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 1: White Rage quote the trigger for white rage inevitably is 247 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:25,120 Speaker 1: black advancement. It is not the mere presence of black 248 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:28,319 Speaker 1: people that is the problem. Rather, it is blackness with ambition, 249 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 1: with drive, with purpose, with aspirations, and with demands for 250 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:38,400 Speaker 1: full and equal citizenship. So powerful, man, Yeah good, it's powerful. 251 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah. Yeah. The comedian clip that would I Forget 252 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:44,200 Speaker 1: Home his name that was going around that where where 253 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:48,800 Speaker 1: he was just like, look, man, we're asking for the 254 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:51,960 Speaker 1: bare minimum. Like even the Civil rights movement that wasn't 255 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:56,440 Speaker 1: even equal rights, were just like just just civil yeah, 256 00:13:56,480 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 1: you know, just just basic. I'm just saying black lives matter, yeah, 257 00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:06,200 Speaker 1: like not like they're not. I'm not saying they're in important. 258 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:09,480 Speaker 1: I'm not saying they matter more than you're. It's just 259 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 1: just just matter, you know. So like you said, like 260 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:16,559 Speaker 1: just and and and and the ambition of Black America 261 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 1: sparked so much rage. Michael Chase Special Yeah, yeah, yeah, 262 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 1: and that's yeah. So two large mobs gather at the 263 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:31,200 Speaker 1: courthouse again, one white, one black. The white mob clearly 264 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:33,360 Speaker 1: wanted to just murder Roland, who was the kid who 265 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 1: you know got in trouble. Uh, and you know they 266 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 1: were in the mood to burn down the courthouse if 267 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 1: the cops tried to stop them. The black mob obviously 268 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 1: wanted to save their guy, um. And this was a 269 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 1: tricky situation for the police, particularly since two weeks earlier, 270 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 1: the state Attorney General had finished an investigation that described 271 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 1: the Tulsa police as corrupt, poorly lead, and so poorly 272 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 1: equipped that they had to borrow cars from their civilian 273 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 1: friends to get to crime scenes. They were hitching rides 274 00:14:56,800 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 1: to like, not a great police force. So that's so funny. 275 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:03,000 Speaker 1: The over when this all are ups into violence. The 276 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 1: overall response of Tulsa's police to the massacre followed like 277 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 1: kind of perfectly encapsulates the different ways US cops responded 278 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 1: to lynching. Overall, Sheriff McCullough seems to have been probably 279 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 1: kind of your best case scenario for a white cop 280 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 1: in this period, he had black deputies. He seems to 281 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 1: have listened to their advice, and he basically spent the 282 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 1: riot barricaded in the jail defending Roland. You know, his 283 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 1: black prisoner um so hard to I'm not gonna call 284 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 1: him a great dude or like particularly wokeradating, but like 285 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 1: does broadly what you'd consider to be the right thing here. Meanwhile, 286 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 1: the police chief, Gausetabson was pretty close to the worst 287 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 1: case scenario before the riot even started. He looked out 288 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 1: at a huge crowd of armed and angry white people 289 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 1: any much smaller crowd of armed black people, and he 290 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 1: called the National Guard to ask for their help to 291 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 1: quote clear the streets of negros. So police chief not 292 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 1: the same as the sheriff here. Um. Now. One of 293 00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 1: the first things that happened after the riot was that 294 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 1: large numbers of ang gree white dudes gathered outside of 295 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 1: the National Guard armory to demand guns. The National Guard 296 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 1: was like, that's not how this works. You can't get 297 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 1: we do have some stone, We don't just hand out 298 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 1: guns to crowds. Dude, why can't somebody be that guy, Like, 299 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 1: why can't we interview that guy when they got to 300 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 1: the door and and being like, Nah, no, I'm not 301 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 1: gonna keep what are you talking about? What are you 302 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 1: talking about? So this crowd, which included a number of 303 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 1: uniformed police officers, went over to a local sporting goods store. 304 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 1: This particular store sold ammunition to the police department, so 305 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 1: the cops in the crowd knew that it was a 306 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 1: good place to go to get guns and ammo. They 307 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 1: broke in and looted it so that they could go 308 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 1: murder black people. As the looting and killing worsen, the 309 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 1: police chief called in his entire department and began commissioning 310 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:53,800 Speaker 1: special deputies, some four hundred random white dudes who were 311 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 1: given guns and legal authority by the police to go 312 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 1: commit acts of horrific violence. By dawn the next day, 313 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 1: the black community of Tulsa had pulled back to defend Greenwood, 314 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:05,480 Speaker 1: their neighborhood. A massive army of angry white dudes, described 315 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:07,959 Speaker 1: in media at the time as a force of citizens, 316 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:12,400 Speaker 1: police and members of the National Guard, numbering fiftundred, invaded 317 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:15,680 Speaker 1: Black Wall Street from two directions. They took unarmed black 318 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:20,119 Speaker 1: people into protective custody. They killed anyone who resisted. Once again, 319 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:22,479 Speaker 1: what had started as white violence had been portrayed by 320 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:25,639 Speaker 1: authorities as a Negro uprising, which is how like the 321 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:29,879 Speaker 1: local press covered it. And now this uprising was being squashed. 322 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 1: The last resistance in Greenwood happened at the newly built 323 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 1: Mountain Zion Baptist Church, when the armed black men barricaded 324 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 1: inside refused to leave. The police and the guardsmen burned 325 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:42,960 Speaker 1: it down. The Tulsa Police department also enlisted the help 326 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 1: of six J and four biplane aircraft. They claimed these 327 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 1: were four reconnaissance purposes, but there is evidence that the 328 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:52,440 Speaker 1: planes were used to firebomb and stray civilians in Greenwood. 329 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:56,680 Speaker 1: And yeah, I'm gonna quote now from Tulsa World and 330 00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 1: a write up of the riot quote. Tulsa police also 331 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:02,439 Speaker 1: seemed to have been involved in the mayhem. More than 332 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 1: one witness identified officers, usually out of uniform, among the arsonists. V. B. Bostick, 333 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:09,439 Speaker 1: a black deputy sheriff, was rousted from his home by 334 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 1: a white traffic officer named Pittman, who then joined in 335 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:15,119 Speaker 1: setting fire to Bostick's house. I. J. Buck, a white 336 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:18,200 Speaker 1: Greenwood property owner, set of policemen turned him aside. When 337 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 1: Buck tried to save one of his buildings. He said, 338 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 1: you ain't got no business building buildings for negroes. Buck 339 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 1: testified in court. Some three hundred black men, women and 340 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 1: children were murdered during the Tulsa racist riot. We will 341 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:31,760 Speaker 1: never know. They are currently in the process of excavating 342 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:35,119 Speaker 1: and what they think might be a mass grave in Tulsa. Um, 343 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:38,200 Speaker 1: but we will never know how many people died. Probably 344 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 1: hopefully we'll get a better count soon. But yeah, and 345 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:45,920 Speaker 1: like just try to like try to get your brain 346 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 1: around the humanity of the moment, Like you're just you're 347 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 1: run a barbershop, you at church, and a US military 348 00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 1: plane well all own country, you know what I'm saying, 349 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:04,960 Speaker 1: Like a civilion plane that the police that the police 350 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 1: were had common deered. Yeah, okay, yes, billion playing at 351 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:13,640 Speaker 1: the police common deer. Like it's just just a like 352 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 1: you just bombed my church. Yeah, Like just try to 353 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 1: like get your brain around net you know. Yeah, yep, yep, 354 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 1: um yeah, it's pretty yeah, like this is sitting bad. 355 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:33,240 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah yeah. And I wonder how many listeners, uh 356 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 1: of all races have never heard this, you know what 357 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:39,920 Speaker 1: I'm saying, Like that's the part that blow Mama's black 358 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 1: people that don't notice. You know, it's pretty fucking wild. Um. 359 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 1: And you know, there are two cases that I'm aware 360 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:50,960 Speaker 1: of of air power bombing, like of of people on 361 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:55,360 Speaker 1: American soil being bombed by armed airplanes prior to uh 362 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 1: December seventh, nineteen attack on Pearl Harbor. And it is 363 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 1: the attack on Black Wall Street and the attack on 364 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:04,680 Speaker 1: the white you well, no, actually not just white, um, 365 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:09,120 Speaker 1: largely white, but definitely mixed race union miners in Blair 366 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:14,000 Speaker 1: Mountain during the the Union uprising there. They were also 367 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:17,199 Speaker 1: bombed and had gas bombs dropped on them too. So 368 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:19,720 Speaker 1: those are the two cases before fucking Pearl Harbor that 369 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:26,560 Speaker 1: air power was used to kill Americans. Um yeah, by Americans, Yeah, 370 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:30,439 Speaker 1: by Americans, sure yeah um so uh yeah. In the 371 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:33,920 Speaker 1: months that followed the racist riot in Tulsa, Tulsa became 372 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:36,439 Speaker 1: the nexus of KKK organizing in the state. There's a 373 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 1: debate about how much role they played in an actually 374 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:42,159 Speaker 1: the racist riot, it was probably not super huge, but 375 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:45,480 Speaker 1: the clan Tulsa becomes like the fucking headquarters of the 376 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:48,800 Speaker 1: Oklahoma Ku Klux Klan in the wake of the racist riot, 377 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:52,159 Speaker 1: and before much longer, Tulsa got a new clan backed 378 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:55,359 Speaker 1: sheriff a claimed back police chief, as did many cities 379 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:57,679 Speaker 1: in Oklahoma, clan members of the city council, and of 380 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:00,240 Speaker 1: course the clan brought with it violence not just against 381 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 1: black people, but against Catholic and Jewish Oklahoma's The governor 382 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 1: of Oklahoma eventually had to bring the National Guard in 383 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 1: again to deal with the Ku Klux Klan. So yeah, yeah, 384 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 1: that's yeah, Tulsa. Uh. And again, like again, it goes 385 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:18,440 Speaker 1: to like the like God, the clans all over the place, 386 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:21,719 Speaker 1: like why how all of a sudden, why are we 387 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:24,360 Speaker 1: mad at Catholic and Jews? Like when when did they 388 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 1: become a card of the conversation like that, even just 389 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 1: even you hearing even hearing you say, it makes sense 390 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 1: to me that the clan is like, Yo, it's cracking 391 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 1: over here. We don't go over here and get it, 392 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 1: get it, get it cracking. Let's take over the city. 393 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 1: And while we're at it, you know the Catholics like 394 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 1: the Catholics, Yeah, what the hell that got to do 395 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 1: with anything? You know? Yep? Yeah, yep. Uh. So lynching 396 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 1: and again, I think really one of the ways to 397 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 1: look at the racist right and told you this is 398 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 1: a mass a mass lynching. Yeah, they lynched the entirety 399 00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 1: of Black Wall Street because they were angry. You know. 400 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:02,639 Speaker 1: The that young woman screaming was the excuse, but it 401 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:05,919 Speaker 1: was anger over black success in organization. And there's stories 402 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 1: of like black or white people looting Greenwood after they 403 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 1: you know, arrested all of the black people in town 404 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 1: and as they were burning it down and coming out 405 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:17,719 Speaker 1: of black houses with like furniture and property and like 406 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:21,359 Speaker 1: angrily yelling like these inwards have nicer things than a 407 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 1: lot of white people. Like that. That was a big 408 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:27,719 Speaker 1: part of why they did this. Uh, yep. So like 409 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 1: we want segregation, okay, cool, we don't want you to 410 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:36,400 Speaker 1: use our money, Okay cool. Damn y'all segregated and using 411 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:39,679 Speaker 1: your own money. I guess we'll kill you. I guess 412 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:43,359 Speaker 1: I hate that, man. What do you want? I think 413 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:47,880 Speaker 1: it's pretty clear what they want. Yeah, yeah, um lynch 414 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:50,560 Speaker 1: ng's peak was probably in the eighteen nineties, but it 415 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:53,359 Speaker 1: continued to be a massive problem. I mean throughout the 416 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:56,359 Speaker 1: nineteen hundreds. Of the nineteen twenties were a pretty bad 417 00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:59,679 Speaker 1: time for lynching. Most historians will tell you that lynching 418 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:03,200 Speaker 1: is best seen as a sort of non state uh 419 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 1: auxiliary to Jim Crow, the civilian side of the enforcement 420 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 1: of white supremacist laws. When the law fell short in 421 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:12,000 Speaker 1: the eyes of racists, it was time for a massive 422 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 1: mob spectacle. Lynching generally was not just about murder. Victims 423 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:19,080 Speaker 1: were usually tortured to extract confessions um and the crowd 424 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 1: generally took souvenirs and posed with the body of the 425 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 1: murdered black person. These were often family gatherings that were 426 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:28,200 Speaker 1: announced on the radio. Now, I'm gonna quote picnics. Yeah, 427 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 1: picnics very kind. Yeah, go ahead and finish in your brain. 428 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:34,639 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna say I just finished. What you think picnic? 429 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 1: What the end of that? What that's probably your short for? Yeah, Okay, 430 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 1: go on. I'm gonna quote next from a book that 431 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 1: will be a major source for this part of the episode, 432 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 1: The Color of the Third Degree by Sylvan Niedermeyer, and 433 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:51,200 Speaker 1: he writes quote during the nineteen tens into a greater 434 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:53,359 Speaker 1: degree from nineteen twenty on, where the white elite of 435 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 1: the South voiced growing criticism of the practice of lynching. 436 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 1: This changed attitude was the result of the economic modernization 437 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:01,879 Speaker 1: taking place in the region, which was accompanied by efforts 438 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,399 Speaker 1: to bolster the business and political ties between the southern 439 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 1: and Northern states, along with an increasing orientation among the 440 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:10,359 Speaker 1: Southern white middle and upper classes towards the cultural values 441 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:12,720 Speaker 1: of the North. This led in nineteen thirty to the 442 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 1: establishment of the Association of Southern Women for the Prevention 443 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:19,439 Speaker 1: of Lynching a s w p L or as WHIPPLE, 444 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,200 Speaker 1: under the leadership at Jesse Daniel Lames. These white women 445 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:26,400 Speaker 1: activists work primarily in church circles and their tireless work 446 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 1: against lynching. These women disputed the traditional rationalization of this 447 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:32,359 Speaker 1: form of violence as a means of protecting white women, 448 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:34,440 Speaker 1: and argued that white men were using the code of 449 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 1: chivalry merely as a pretext to justify violence against African Americans. 450 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:43,720 Speaker 1: Good yeah, yeah, good work, good ally ship, or whatever 451 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 1: you wanna call it. Uh. Nineteen twenty was actually the 452 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:48,960 Speaker 1: first year in which more lynchings were averted by law 453 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 1: enforcement than carried out. Between nineteen thirty two and ninety two, 454 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:56,439 Speaker 1: two hundred and ninety lynchings were stopped by police. The 455 00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:59,879 Speaker 1: activism of groups like as WHIPPLE helped helped your do 456 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 1: lynching through the nineteen twenties, and while it saw an 457 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:05,280 Speaker 1: upswing during the Great Depression, The number of lynchings dropped 458 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,199 Speaker 1: precipitously by the end of the nineteen thirties, and for 459 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:11,160 Speaker 1: most of the last few decades, the anti lynching campaigns 460 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:13,439 Speaker 1: were seen as a major feather in the cap of 461 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:16,280 Speaker 1: U s law enforcement. An example about the police kind 462 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:19,480 Speaker 1: of modernizing and reforming, and of Southern cops rising to 463 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:22,960 Speaker 1: the occasion to protect black people from violence. This is 464 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:27,760 Speaker 1: wildly inaccurate. Um Niedermeyer argues with exhaustive documentation that rather 465 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 1: than protecting black people from murder quote, law enforcement authorities 466 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,400 Speaker 1: in the South were generally taking initiatives to protect black 467 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 1: suspects from being seized by lynch mobs. Now. The way 468 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,399 Speaker 1: they did this was by loading suspects up into police cars, 469 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 1: which were a new thing then and allowed for faster transport, 470 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,200 Speaker 1: and taking them away to distant jails. Law enforcement did 471 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 1: sometimes use violence and even call out malicious to disperse 472 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 1: lynch mobs, but the anger that had spawned those mobs 473 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,600 Speaker 1: still had to be sated, and police sayd it by 474 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:58,760 Speaker 1: making damn certain that black suspects got what those mobs 475 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:04,239 Speaker 1: thought they deserved, a swift and violent death. Quote. In 476 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:06,680 Speaker 1: his study of the state of Kentucky. Historian George Wright 477 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:09,199 Speaker 1: comes to the conclusion that the number of executions of 478 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 1: blacks carried out during the first decades of the twentieth 479 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:15,680 Speaker 1: century continually rose, while the number of lynchings steadily declined 480 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 1: during the same period. Likewise, the findings of the political 481 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,919 Speaker 1: scientist James W. Clark show a clear correlation in the 482 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 1: nineteen twenties and thirties between the declining lynching violence and 483 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:28,119 Speaker 1: the growing number of convicted African American offenders who were 484 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:31,720 Speaker 1: executed by state authorities. The available statistical data on the 485 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:34,320 Speaker 1: number of executions carried out in the United States between 486 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:37,880 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty and nineteen seventy also suggests the dwindling number 487 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:39,919 Speaker 1: of lynchings was tied to the growing use of the 488 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,439 Speaker 1: death penalty. Although there is no conclusive evidence to support 489 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 1: the theory that lynching violence was gradually replaced by the 490 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,679 Speaker 1: death penalty, it can be said that the legal system 491 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 1: in the South increasingly assumed the function of maintaining social 492 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:56,000 Speaker 1: control over the black population during the early twentieth century. 493 00:26:56,240 --> 00:27:00,919 Speaker 1: See that is dizzying, Yeah, caught it. It's so diggery. 494 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:05,800 Speaker 1: It's it's like because I to to try to sort 495 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:09,560 Speaker 1: that out is to go you're you're off celter because 496 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:11,639 Speaker 1: like you said, you think, oh it's cool man, maybe 497 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 1: they're maybe these people are evolving and they're like, no, 498 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:19,200 Speaker 1: this is I'm They're just you just want to control 499 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 1: of your county and you just like So, the point 500 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 1: is I can't be having these I can't be having 501 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:27,800 Speaker 1: the city think they got more power than me because 502 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:32,680 Speaker 1: I'm the law. So but they're like, but I feel you. 503 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,400 Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying, like low key, I feel you. 504 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 1: I'm just saying, you don't get to tell me what 505 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 1: to do. So when so from the black perspective, do 506 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:46,720 Speaker 1: I can I make any distinction between that mob and 507 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:50,440 Speaker 1: this jail? No, because I still end up dead, you 508 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:54,240 Speaker 1: know what I'm saying. So, and then when we say 509 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:55,760 Speaker 1: and then like you said, all the signs we're talk 510 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:58,920 Speaker 1: about the other ones, that mass incarceration and the deputy 511 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,639 Speaker 1: and the law for just it's same ease. This is 512 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:05,720 Speaker 1: what we're trying to say. And here is right in 513 00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 1: your history it's SAME's. This is why we don't make 514 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:11,080 Speaker 1: no distinction. You know what I'm saying. This is why 515 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:18,720 Speaker 1: we keep saying the orchards bad orchards. Badis apples, Yes, 516 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 1: they're piss apples. You keep going away individual piss apples, 517 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 1: hoping and then trying to point out one it ain't 518 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:35,119 Speaker 1: got pissed, and I'm going what it's the Yes, Oh 519 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 1: you know what's not an apple filled with urine. First 520 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 1: of all, I've never heard of the term piss apple. 521 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:47,880 Speaker 1: But that's great anyway. But I hope these products and 522 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 1: services are not because they are not. They are not. 523 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 1: That's our one line for advertisers. No apples filled with urine. 524 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:09,600 Speaker 1: We're back, all right, Um? Cool? Uh all right. So 525 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 1: when you really look at it through a gimlet eye, 526 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 1: the inevitable conclusion one comes to in all of this, 527 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 1: um is, you know, while police often enabled violence, you 528 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:23,640 Speaker 1: know of the clan in the late eight hundreds, in 529 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 1: the early nineteen hundreds, and with the race riots in 530 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:29,960 Speaker 1: nineteen nineteen, you know Tulsa. While police often enabled such 531 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 1: things on an individual level, collectively, they were more than 532 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,720 Speaker 1: anything else powerless to stop this violence. Um. Although you 533 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 1: could argue that didn't tryal that hard, um, but they 534 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:40,240 Speaker 1: weren't really set up to stop that violence either. And 535 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:42,000 Speaker 1: to both the state and the kind of people who 536 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:45,040 Speaker 1: tend to become police officers, that lack of control over 537 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 1: the mob was worse for them than whatever violence the 538 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 1: mob was committing. Often white sheriffs and police chiefs were 539 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:53,800 Speaker 1: absolutely fine with killing black people. Would bug them? Was 540 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:58,480 Speaker 1: the disorder um because power people. In nineteen thirty three, 541 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 1: a sociologist with the the just tremendously unfortunate name of 542 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:08,480 Speaker 1: Arthur Raper, which, oh, that's a rough one to dry 543 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 1: out of the names. Arthur Raper published a study that 544 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:17,240 Speaker 1: suggested lynchings were most often permitted by making it clear 545 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 1: to the mob that the alleged offender would be quickly 546 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:23,880 Speaker 1: convicted and punished. Southern politicians came to rely on the 547 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 1: death penalty is an easy way to appease the mob 548 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:31,080 Speaker 1: and avoid uncivilized violence. Local journalists supported the state and 549 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:34,040 Speaker 1: its massively increased rate of executions, seeing them as a 550 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,280 Speaker 1: victory for law and order. Yo, when I was so 551 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 1: nice to teach high school that's a high school for 552 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:41,920 Speaker 1: a couple of years at ninth graders, And one time 553 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:45,480 Speaker 1: we went on this field trip, uh to Lacma to 554 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:49,320 Speaker 1: the Museum of um you know, the museum in in 555 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 1: on Libreya. And so it's four teachers to a hundred 556 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 1: and fifty fourteen year old, right, So I had me 557 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 1: and an other teacher had control a half of them. 558 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:06,120 Speaker 1: So I got seventy five freshmen. Right, We're walking by 559 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 1: the park and there's a dude selling like inflatable toys, 560 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:17,800 Speaker 1: so like hammers and dolls and such like this. And 561 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:21,320 Speaker 1: at this point it's seventy five of y'all and two 562 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:24,080 Speaker 1: of us. They're gonna the kids are gonna beat each 563 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 1: other with it. There's no You're not gonna stop these 564 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:31,440 Speaker 1: freshmen from hurting each other with these inflatable hammers. So 565 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 1: my thought was, Okay, if they're gonna do it, they're 566 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:39,640 Speaker 1: gonna do it. You're you're freshman, and I'm not gonna 567 00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 1: stop you. And Loki, it seems kind of fun. I'm 568 00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 1: not gonna lie to you. Seems kind of fun. So 569 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 1: what I did was I broke them up into their 570 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:50,880 Speaker 1: home rooms, right, and made them be feuding clans. So 571 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:54,360 Speaker 1: I made them send gladiators from their home room to 572 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:58,040 Speaker 1: the middle for the purpose of as the greatest teacher ever, 573 00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:00,520 Speaker 1: for the purpose of being able to make make sure 574 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 1: that no one gets actually injured. Right. So, because the 575 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 1: point is the same thing that this sheriff is saying, 576 00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,280 Speaker 1: I just need to maintain order, right, of course, I 577 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:15,720 Speaker 1: don't want you to beat each other, and well, I 578 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:17,920 Speaker 1: just don't want to lose control. It's really the point. 579 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:20,120 Speaker 1: The point is I don't want to lose control because 580 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:22,680 Speaker 1: your mama gonna kill me if I lose one of y'all, right, 581 00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:24,720 Speaker 1: and I'm probably gonna lose my job. So I don't 582 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,520 Speaker 1: want to lose control. But y'all gonna beat each other. 583 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:29,960 Speaker 1: So in my mind, I'm like, at least I can 584 00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:36,440 Speaker 1: make sure that everyone's engaged, and I can then it's 585 00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:38,800 Speaker 1: not everybody beating each other, but you all sent Gladdie 586 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 1: is one of the funniest things. I really got reprimanded 587 00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:44,480 Speaker 1: by the vice principle. But then the principal was like, 588 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:53,840 Speaker 1: you're brilliant. Yeah, it's like that again. Uh detty problematic 589 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:56,479 Speaker 1: cop in England who was like, well, they were going 590 00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:58,480 Speaker 1: to throw the statue in the river and we could 591 00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 1: either pull it out of the for later and put 592 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 1: it back, or we could beat a bunch of our 593 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:05,040 Speaker 1: citizens for throwing a statue in the river. And that 594 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:09,160 Speaker 1: seemed like the wrong call, you know, like yeah, yeah, 595 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:13,320 Speaker 1: um yeah. This also dovetails into. I won't go on 596 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 1: to a long rant about my ideas for school reform, 597 00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:18,000 Speaker 1: but why all children should be forced to carry claw 598 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:20,760 Speaker 1: hammers at all times in public schools, um and private 599 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,200 Speaker 1: schools for that matter, and all teachers to everybody should 600 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 1: have a real big hammer. Um, that's very important to 601 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:29,520 Speaker 1: me for a variety of reasons. Yeah, I'm very pro 602 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 1: hammer man. I don't get into that. I just found. 603 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:38,480 Speaker 1: I just found the first thing we disagree on. There'd 604 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:41,520 Speaker 1: be a lot less statues, all kinds of statues, but 605 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:43,600 Speaker 1: a lot less of them. It would be a great 606 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:46,040 Speaker 1: lesson on like pulleys and physics. Though, I'll tell you that. 607 00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:49,080 Speaker 1: Like we was like, all right, guys, this was this, 608 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:52,160 Speaker 1: this is the freshman second semester project has come up 609 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:55,960 Speaker 1: with the best pulley system to tear down a Confederate statue. Yeah, 610 00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:57,960 Speaker 1: the person I could do it with the where the 611 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 1: smallest little person in my row is able to pull 612 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:03,720 Speaker 1: down this whole statute. That person get to a yeah, 613 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:05,560 Speaker 1: you do you pulled? You have the little kids pulled 614 00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:07,240 Speaker 1: on the statue. And then you're like, and this is 615 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:16,920 Speaker 1: why Aliens didn't build the pyramids. Yes, you've figured this out, 616 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:21,360 Speaker 1: and so did the Egyptians. Yea, so did the Egyptians. Alright, alright, alright, 617 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:25,319 Speaker 1: we gotta get back to the subject. So in nine three, yeah, 618 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 1: Arthur Raper published a study again like yeah, basically that 619 00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:31,000 Speaker 1: the southern politicians came to rely on the death penalty's 620 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:33,799 Speaker 1: a way to appease the mob and avoid uncivilized violence. Now, 621 00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:36,799 Speaker 1: you can't easily get a swift conviction if you have 622 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:40,200 Speaker 1: a real trial. Obviously, remember the data we have suggests 623 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:42,239 Speaker 1: that the vast majority of black people targeted by lynch 624 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:45,320 Speaker 1: mobs were innocent of any serious crime. Uh. If this 625 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:47,879 Speaker 1: ship went to court, even a crooked court, it would 626 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:51,120 Speaker 1: take time, and during that time, like it, like if 627 00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 1: it if you were if you were doing this the 628 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:56,120 Speaker 1: way police are supposed to handle cases like this, it 629 00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:58,359 Speaker 1: would take a lot of time and then it might 630 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:01,120 Speaker 1: be yeah, it might be off. And it's way easier 631 00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:04,439 Speaker 1: if you go into court with a confession, because then 632 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:08,279 Speaker 1: you're like, well he confessed. Uh So police in this 633 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:12,360 Speaker 1: time focused on securing confessions because a suspect who confesses 634 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:16,280 Speaker 1: isn't really a suspect anymore. During the early nineteen hundreds, 635 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,600 Speaker 1: the a CP documented fifty one cases of forced confessions 636 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:22,239 Speaker 1: in Southern States. These were a tiny fraction of the 637 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:24,239 Speaker 1: total number of cases, which numbered in the hundreds of 638 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:26,759 Speaker 1: the thousands. The d a CPS resources were limited, and 639 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:29,200 Speaker 1: they were picking out specific cases that they were challenging 640 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:32,680 Speaker 1: in courts. These were a percent of what was going 641 00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:35,799 Speaker 1: on um In three fourths of the cases they documented, 642 00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:38,520 Speaker 1: the black defendants alleged that they had been tortured into 643 00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:41,920 Speaker 1: confessing by the police. The vast majority of these cases 644 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:45,319 Speaker 1: were either alleged murders or rapes. The color of the 645 00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:48,200 Speaker 1: third degree goes into significant detail about a number of 646 00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:51,120 Speaker 1: cases that illustrate this transition. One I want to highlight 647 00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:52,520 Speaker 1: to you all is the case of the murder of 648 00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:55,880 Speaker 1: Raymond Stewart in nineteen thirty four. Stewart was a prominent 649 00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:57,840 Speaker 1: white farmer and landowner, and he was found dead in 650 00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:00,920 Speaker 1: his home in Kimber County, Mississippi. There were signs of 651 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:02,919 Speaker 1: a struggle. Almost as soon as the news got out, 652 00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:04,920 Speaker 1: two hundred people gathered in front of his home to 653 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:08,480 Speaker 1: look for the officers. Three young black men were eventually arrested. 654 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:10,759 Speaker 1: A lynch mob form to go and murder them, which 655 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:13,240 Speaker 1: prompted the local sheriff to call an e extra deputies 656 00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:16,160 Speaker 1: and fortified the jail with machine guns and tear gas grenades. 657 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:18,719 Speaker 1: The National Guard was almost called in and a state 658 00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:22,080 Speaker 1: of emergency was declared in order to preempt white mob violence. 659 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:25,439 Speaker 1: The Sheriff's department immediately set to torturing the absolute ship 660 00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:28,480 Speaker 1: out of these three kids. Confessions were quickly obtained, but 661 00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:30,239 Speaker 1: when the case actually went to court, one of the 662 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,759 Speaker 1: young defendants began to complain that his confession had been 663 00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:36,840 Speaker 1: forced out of him. Near to Meyer writes, quote Brown, 664 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,279 Speaker 1: who was this one of these kids, testified that after 665 00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:41,680 Speaker 1: his arrest, he had been subjected to violent treatment, above 666 00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:44,080 Speaker 1: all by Deputy Sheriff Cliff Dial to force him to 667 00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:46,239 Speaker 1: admit the crime. He told me to come on out 668 00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:48,719 Speaker 1: here that he had to heard. I told I killed 669 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:50,680 Speaker 1: Mr Raymond. I come out of the jail house and 670 00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:53,719 Speaker 1: I said, I declare I didn't kill Mr Raymond. He said, 671 00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:55,799 Speaker 1: come on in here and pull your clothes off. I'm 672 00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:57,960 Speaker 1: gonna get you. I said to the last that I 673 00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:00,160 Speaker 1: didn't kill him. There was two more fellows about like 674 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:02,000 Speaker 1: that there, and they was whipping me. They had me 675 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:04,080 Speaker 1: behind a cross chairs kind of like that. I said, 676 00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:05,960 Speaker 1: I didn't kill him. They said to put him on again, 677 00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:08,640 Speaker 1: and they hit me so hard. I had to say yes, sir. 678 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:11,640 Speaker 1: Mr Cliff Dial said give the strap to me, I 679 00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:13,439 Speaker 1: will get it. He took it and he had two 680 00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:15,520 Speaker 1: buckles on the end. They stripped me naked and bit 681 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:17,319 Speaker 1: me over a chair, and I just had to say it. 682 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:20,279 Speaker 1: I couldn't help it. As the court transcript shows, Brown 683 00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:23,000 Speaker 1: supported his testimony by pointing to the injuries from the 684 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:26,160 Speaker 1: blows to his body. Question they whipped you hard there? 685 00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:28,760 Speaker 1: Answer yes, sir, I will show you. There are places 686 00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:31,560 Speaker 1: all the way up. Question did you bleed any? Answer? 687 00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:34,799 Speaker 1: Did I bleed? I sure did. Brown testified that after 688 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:37,239 Speaker 1: Dial had forced him to confess, he threatened him with 689 00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:40,319 Speaker 1: additional beatings if he were canted his statement. Furthermore, he 690 00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:43,399 Speaker 1: emphatically maintained that he did not kill Raymond Stewart. If 691 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:45,279 Speaker 1: I die right now, I am going to say it. 692 00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:47,799 Speaker 1: I ain't never harmed Mr Raymond in my life. If 693 00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:49,719 Speaker 1: they want, they can kill me because I said that, 694 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:54,480 Speaker 1: But I ain't never harmed Mr Raymond. Afterward, Henry Shields 695 00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:56,920 Speaker 1: was called to the next to the witness stand. He 696 00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:59,080 Speaker 1: was another one of the boys arrested. He testified that 697 00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:01,440 Speaker 1: after his arrest, he had been whipped by Deputy Sheriff 698 00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:04,080 Speaker 1: Cliff Dial in the murder. In jail, Shields said that 699 00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:06,560 Speaker 1: due to the relentless whipping, he eventually gave a false 700 00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:09,560 Speaker 1: confession and declared that he had a hand in Stuart's murder. Mr. 701 00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:11,840 Speaker 1: Cliff Dial and then come back that evening and whipped 702 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:13,400 Speaker 1: me first. I tried to tell the truth, but he 703 00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:16,000 Speaker 1: wouldn't let me. He said, no, you ain't told the truth, 704 00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:17,840 Speaker 1: and I tried to stick to it. He whipped me 705 00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:21,120 Speaker 1: so hard I had to tell him something. Ellington, who 706 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:23,640 Speaker 1: was the third boy who was forced subsequently to the stand, 707 00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:26,000 Speaker 1: also testified that he was innocent and had been forced 708 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,760 Speaker 1: to confess. He stated that shortly after word of Stuart's 709 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:30,840 Speaker 1: murder started making the rounds, he was seized by a 710 00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:33,400 Speaker 1: mob of roughly twenty people, several of whom were employees 711 00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:36,279 Speaker 1: of the sheriff, including the previously mentioned Cliff Dial. He 712 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:37,759 Speaker 1: said that the men had tied him to a tree 713 00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:39,040 Speaker 1: and whipped him. He went on to say that a 714 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:41,080 Speaker 1: rope which had been thrown over a tree limb, was 715 00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:43,000 Speaker 1: then tied around his neck and members of the mob 716 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:44,640 Speaker 1: pulled him up in the air twice to force him 717 00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:49,200 Speaker 1: to divulge information about the murder. Yeah, it's pretty bad. 718 00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:54,480 Speaker 1: It's real real. Yeah, you know, from a practical standpoint, 719 00:38:54,600 --> 00:39:01,080 Speaker 1: like hey, you know, um, you know, rocket scientists shareff 720 00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,480 Speaker 1: you know, if you beat me, there's evidence, so I 721 00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:07,680 Speaker 1: can go Yeah, this right here, that's that's his buckle. 722 00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:11,360 Speaker 1: That's where that came from. Rocket science. And then secondly, 723 00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:14,160 Speaker 1: I think remember that the To Catch a Murderer, the 724 00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:17,640 Speaker 1: little series on Netflix. Remember how like when they finally 725 00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:21,520 Speaker 1: showed that interrogation of the little dude that clearly was autistic, 726 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:25,920 Speaker 1: you know, and when they bullied him into saying something 727 00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:28,080 Speaker 1: just so they bullied him in to say it. Yeah. 728 00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:32,480 Speaker 1: We'll talk about um that in a bit, because that 729 00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:36,879 Speaker 1: there's yeah that ties into this actually rather directly. Yeah. 730 00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:40,319 Speaker 1: Yeah like this so yeah, all that to say, like 731 00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:48,120 Speaker 1: this isn't this is a normal practice. Yeah if yeah, 732 00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:52,520 Speaker 1: if you treated your domestic partner the way that police 733 00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:56,760 Speaker 1: routinely treat people in interrogations, they would have easy legal 734 00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,319 Speaker 1: standing to get a restraining order against you and take 735 00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:02,600 Speaker 1: your guns away if you own guns. Yeah, Like yes, 736 00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:08,080 Speaker 1: it's emotional abuse. So um, it's worth noting that further 737 00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:10,799 Speaker 1: on in their testimony, uh, these boys made statements to 738 00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:12,680 Speaker 1: the effect that a great deal of the local white 739 00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:15,480 Speaker 1: population knew they were being tortured at the jail. Now 740 00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:19,240 Speaker 1: they've been specifically taken to a separate, geographically isolated jail 741 00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:20,799 Speaker 1: on the other side of the state line in order 742 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:23,319 Speaker 1: to hide the fact that they were being tortured. Um. 743 00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:25,520 Speaker 1: This was common behavior for police around the country, But 744 00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:27,640 Speaker 1: at the same time, it was important to the police 745 00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:30,120 Speaker 1: that enough white people knew these black prisoners were being 746 00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:32,759 Speaker 1: tortured to stop mobs from burning down one of the 747 00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:36,919 Speaker 1: jails under questioning. Officer Dial did eventually admit to having 748 00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:39,640 Speaker 1: beaten the boys. He said that it was not too 749 00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:41,959 Speaker 1: much for a negro, not as much as I would 750 00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:49,800 Speaker 1: have done if it was left to me. That statements, yeah, yeah, yeah, 751 00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:54,040 Speaker 1: And again it's people can handle a lot. That's exactly 752 00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:55,839 Speaker 1: what I'm getting into. This is part of a very 753 00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:58,520 Speaker 1: long standing trend in in not just law enforcement, but 754 00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:00,719 Speaker 1: white racism, the idea that black will feel les pain 755 00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:02,920 Speaker 1: than white people. It's, for one thing, documented that black 756 00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:06,400 Speaker 1: men and women are prescribed lower doses of pain killers 757 00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:09,240 Speaker 1: by doctors for the exact same ailments as white people 758 00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:12,120 Speaker 1: are prescribed higher doses. And this is like a large 759 00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:14,920 Speaker 1: Black doctors do this. This is a largely unconscious thing. 760 00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:19,520 Speaker 1: It's it's so deeply woven into the fabric of our society, 761 00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:22,200 Speaker 1: the idea that black people feel pain somehow less than 762 00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:28,319 Speaker 1: white people. Yep, yeah, I don't even maybe that's there. Yeah, yeah, 763 00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:30,960 Speaker 1: I might have something to do with police officers, for example, 764 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:32,719 Speaker 1: putting a knee on one of their necks for eight 765 00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:38,000 Speaker 1: minutes and forty six seconds because you're soume, we're fine. Yeah, now, yeah, 766 00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:39,960 Speaker 1: And you can draw a direct line from the whipping 767 00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:42,680 Speaker 1: of slaves in the pre war South and like justifications 768 00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:44,440 Speaker 1: for why that wasn't cruel. It was the only way 769 00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:46,080 Speaker 1: they would learn, you know, they don't feel pain the same, 770 00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:47,600 Speaker 1: this is what you have to do. You can draw 771 00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:50,360 Speaker 1: a direct line from that to officer dials abuse to 772 00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:53,160 Speaker 1: the fact that, for example, today black an Hispanic people 773 00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:56,359 Speaker 1: are fifty likelier in the United States to experience non 774 00:41:56,440 --> 00:42:01,640 Speaker 1: lethal use of force from police. Yeah, yep, all tied together, 775 00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:09,160 Speaker 1: yeah yeah. Diale and his fellow officers insisted that despite 776 00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:12,200 Speaker 1: the force used, all three black boys made free and 777 00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:15,319 Speaker 1: open confessions to the murder, and this convinced the all 778 00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:18,000 Speaker 1: white jerry. Part of white convinced the white Jerry is 779 00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:19,960 Speaker 1: that a reverend who had been in the jail at 780 00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:22,920 Speaker 1: the time testified that they had given free confessions. By 781 00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:25,239 Speaker 1: the way, that reverend repeatedly referred to all of the 782 00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:32,600 Speaker 1: boys as darkies. Um yeah, yeah, unbiased religious official there. Yeah. 783 00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:36,080 Speaker 1: And again I'm highlighting a single case because it is 784 00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:39,040 Speaker 1: important for you to know. But also this happened in 785 00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:41,920 Speaker 1: every state, particularly in the South and a lot of 786 00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:45,920 Speaker 1: parts of the North. On a regular basis. Most police officers, 787 00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:50,680 Speaker 1: particularly in the South, had similar participated in similar things. 788 00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:58,399 Speaker 1: This was the norm, This was a common occurrence. Um yeah, 789 00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,759 Speaker 1: uh uh. If they didn't participate, like officer dial, they 790 00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:06,440 Speaker 1: were aware of other officers doing it. That's probably more 791 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:08,840 Speaker 1: common than than doing it, just because most people aren't 792 00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:12,239 Speaker 1: comfortable with with carrying out random physical violence, even most 793 00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:17,680 Speaker 1: police officers. Um, but they let it happen. Yeah, broadly 794 00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:21,520 Speaker 1: supported it. Yeah. Yeah. The fear that's already striking in somebody, 795 00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:24,440 Speaker 1: that's like obviously the person you talk to, the sociopath, 796 00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:26,880 Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying, So like the fear of 797 00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:28,440 Speaker 1: being like, well, I'm not going to get in his 798 00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:30,239 Speaker 1: way because he won't turn it on me. You know, 799 00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:33,280 Speaker 1: this guy's crazy. Look at him. Yeah, this is crazy, 800 00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:36,120 Speaker 1: I mean, um, And of course he's not crazy, Officer Dial, 801 00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:38,719 Speaker 1: I have no doubt. Um was completely in possession of 802 00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:41,880 Speaker 1: his white right mind, white mind, um, and not not 803 00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:44,640 Speaker 1: any way mental real. He was a He was enforcing 804 00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:47,440 Speaker 1: white supremacy through violence in a way that was effective 805 00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:51,080 Speaker 1: and rational. Um. Yeah, So the white jury, after a 806 00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:53,279 Speaker 1: day and a half of proceedings, voted to convict all 807 00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:56,440 Speaker 1: three boys of murder and have them executed. And thankfully 808 00:43:57,120 --> 00:43:59,360 Speaker 1: this was a case where the double a CP managed 809 00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:01,439 Speaker 1: to get involved in time. They appealed and the lives 810 00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:04,680 Speaker 1: of all three young men were saved. So as happy 811 00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:07,200 Speaker 1: and ending as a story of torture can happen. Um, 812 00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:10,600 Speaker 1: there's a there's a trial like right before Brown versus 813 00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:14,800 Speaker 1: Board of Education that uh missed, missed all the missed 814 00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:17,400 Speaker 1: all the fame because of Brown versus Board of Education. 815 00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:20,759 Speaker 1: When yeah, about the white jurors like being able to 816 00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:23,080 Speaker 1: like the law of saying like I have a right 817 00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:26,400 Speaker 1: to be you know, tried in front of a jury 818 00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:30,720 Speaker 1: of my peers, but it wasn't until after this case, 819 00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:36,600 Speaker 1: because our documents only recognized two races. So so if 820 00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:39,279 Speaker 1: this is a Latino dude, and that's that's what the 821 00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:41,880 Speaker 1: case was. It was a Latino dude who got in 822 00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:45,320 Speaker 1: a bar fight with a Latino dude, right, But according 823 00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:48,000 Speaker 1: to the eyes of the constitution, Latinos are white until 824 00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:51,080 Speaker 1: this case. Right, So if you've got an all white jury, 825 00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:54,120 Speaker 1: they're like, but they're still looking at a Mexican dude 826 00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:58,520 Speaker 1: and he's like, dude, like, these are not my peers, Like, 827 00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:01,719 Speaker 1: and then they're going, what are you talking about? You 828 00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:04,200 Speaker 1: guys are both white people. It's like, but no, where 829 00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:08,279 Speaker 1: you can't you can't play it both ways, man, Like 830 00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:12,320 Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. So, so what's interesting about 831 00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:15,200 Speaker 1: this case, like you said, is like, there's clear evidence, 832 00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:20,120 Speaker 1: there's obvious evidence. They the dude that did it said 833 00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:24,160 Speaker 1: he did it, and then the jury acquitted. You know 834 00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:29,560 Speaker 1: what I'm saying, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. Um. And 835 00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:31,200 Speaker 1: the case that I just related to you was only 836 00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:35,640 Speaker 1: exceptional because some version of justice was eventually done. Thanks 837 00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:37,719 Speaker 1: to the hard work of the end of a cp 838 00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:40,360 Speaker 1: unknowable numbers of black men and boys were tortured and 839 00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:42,759 Speaker 1: executed without the end of a CP, ever, coming to 840 00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:45,120 Speaker 1: their aid um just because you know, that's not a 841 00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:48,200 Speaker 1: criticism of the end of a CP. The resources were limited, um, 842 00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:51,520 Speaker 1: playing whack a mole man like you can't be everywhere, 843 00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:54,640 Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, And the FBI did not start to 844 00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:57,359 Speaker 1: really look into the problem of torture enforced confessions by 845 00:45:57,400 --> 00:45:59,960 Speaker 1: US law enforcement until ninety two. And the Bureau does 846 00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:01,840 Speaker 1: again get a little bit of credit for intervening to 847 00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:04,359 Speaker 1: try and protect black Americans faster than any other wing 848 00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:06,719 Speaker 1: of the US government, But as near to Miyer notes, 849 00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:09,520 Speaker 1: their efforts were limited in scope and saw very limited 850 00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:12,640 Speaker 1: success and absolutely did not stop the problem or really 851 00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:15,920 Speaker 1: arrested in any major way. Some of this has to 852 00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:18,120 Speaker 1: do with the history of police torture, and this is 853 00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:22,080 Speaker 1: where we get into stuff that's both white and black history. Um, 854 00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:24,040 Speaker 1: you know, in in a in a in a way 855 00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:26,200 Speaker 1: um or a history of at least police abuse of 856 00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:28,239 Speaker 1: both white and black people. For all of the eighteen 857 00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:30,400 Speaker 1: hundreds in the first half of the twentieth century, it 858 00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:32,960 Speaker 1: was not illegal for the police in the United States 859 00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:35,640 Speaker 1: to torture people. Charges could be brought against the cops 860 00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:38,440 Speaker 1: that they committed assaulter battery and breach of their regulations, 861 00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:40,719 Speaker 1: but that was as hard to prove as you might suspect. 862 00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:42,880 Speaker 1: Some states had laws to prohibit the use of violence 863 00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:44,960 Speaker 1: to force confessions, but that was not an across the 864 00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:48,160 Speaker 1: board sort of thing, near to Miyer notes quote as 865 00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:51,520 Speaker 1: investigative reports from that date. From this period reveal, however, 866 00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:54,960 Speaker 1: penalties were rarely imposed because district attorneys, judges, and jury 867 00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:57,840 Speaker 1: members were highly reluctant to limit the power and authority 868 00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:00,680 Speaker 1: of law enforcement officials. While the white press in the 869 00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:03,440 Speaker 1: South generally avoided using the term torture and its reporting 870 00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:06,120 Speaker 1: on cases of police violence during interrogations, the term was 871 00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:08,480 Speaker 1: purposefully used by the Black press to expose and announce 872 00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:11,239 Speaker 1: the violent abuse of African American suspects, often in a 873 00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:13,960 Speaker 1: bid to gain public support for the fledgling civil rights struggle. 874 00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:17,240 Speaker 1: A more common and prevalent term was the third degree, 875 00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:20,160 Speaker 1: which was adopted as police jargon in the late nineteenth 876 00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:23,279 Speaker 1: century and entered the general American vocabulary in the early 877 00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:26,439 Speaker 1: twentieth century. And I'm gonna guess most people know this term, right, 878 00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:33,120 Speaker 1: that's yeah, as I say from the TV from the choree, 879 00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:35,120 Speaker 1: and what that means is I'm going to torture the 880 00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:44,359 Speaker 1: ship out of Yeah. Yeah, it's bad. Um yeah, so yeah, 881 00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:46,400 Speaker 1: and it is like it. It is a term that 882 00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:49,200 Speaker 1: was used to justify police, to dress up police torture 883 00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:52,239 Speaker 1: something else. Torture sounds like a crime. Giving them the 884 00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:55,040 Speaker 1: third degree is something that like a hard bitten but 885 00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:58,560 Speaker 1: goodhearted dragnet type cop has to do it. He doesn't 886 00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:00,279 Speaker 1: like it, but I gotta keep a city safe, you know. 887 00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:04,840 Speaker 1: Um yeah. The term really took off in the nineteen thirties, 888 00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:07,840 Speaker 1: right alongside a massive increase in police use of torture. 889 00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:11,840 Speaker 1: In ninety one, President Herbert Hoover established the National Commission 890 00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:15,759 Speaker 1: on Law Observance and Enforcement, better known as the Wickersham Commission. 891 00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:19,160 Speaker 1: It reported that the third degree was used throughout the country, 892 00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:22,520 Speaker 1: most often in big cities like New York, Chicago, Detroit, 893 00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:25,279 Speaker 1: and Los Angeles. In the South, torture was used to 894 00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:27,840 Speaker 1: control black bodies and white mobs, but in the urban 895 00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:30,360 Speaker 1: North it was just used to make cop lives easier 896 00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:34,000 Speaker 1: by guaranteeing them quick convictions. People at the time were 897 00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:36,719 Speaker 1: rightly angry at this, and initiatives were enacted after the 898 00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:40,480 Speaker 1: Wickersham Commission to reduce the use of the third degree. Police, 899 00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:43,640 Speaker 1: for their part, denied that the third degree existed and 900 00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:47,520 Speaker 1: worn with any additional legal restrictions on cops, would cause 901 00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:54,440 Speaker 1: crime to rise. Yeah. Yeah, they have one tool and 902 00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:58,200 Speaker 1: they use it real well. You know, yeah, well, you know, 903 00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:01,279 Speaker 1: you know, if you do this, then you're gonna you're 904 00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:03,279 Speaker 1: gonna call it's gonna be more crime. And as you 905 00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:05,480 Speaker 1: hear props say that, imagining it's coming from the voice 906 00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:09,879 Speaker 1: of a police officer actively pulling a man's fingernails off, yes, yes, 907 00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:16,040 Speaker 1: so yeah. For a long time, historians thought that government 908 00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:19,000 Speaker 1: scrutiny successfully reduced the use of police torture. And maybe 909 00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:21,840 Speaker 1: it did reduce it, but it did not eliminate it, 910 00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:25,040 Speaker 1: and modern scholarship suggests that it just caused cops to 911 00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:27,279 Speaker 1: get kgier and a little bit more clever with how 912 00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:29,719 Speaker 1: they tortured people. One way to do this was to 913 00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:32,440 Speaker 1: transition to methods of torture that left no physical marks 914 00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:35,160 Speaker 1: on the victims. In nineteen thirty, a New York Legal 915 00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:39,160 Speaker 1: aid organization listed two cases of suspects who were brutalized 916 00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:42,680 Speaker 1: by police during interrogations. Most of the torture victims were 917 00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:46,320 Speaker 1: uneducated whites. Under the age of thirty. A large number 918 00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:49,520 Speaker 1: of those white boys were immigrants. While black people were 919 00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:52,239 Speaker 1: a minority of torture victims in the North, they were 920 00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:56,440 Speaker 1: a disproportionate percentage of the victims. Thirty six percent of 921 00:49:56,480 --> 00:49:59,480 Speaker 1: New York Police Department torture victims were black men, and 922 00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:03,160 Speaker 1: black people made up only five percent of New York's population. 923 00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:09,359 Speaker 1: So that's follow me, now, that's pretty bad. Yeah, yeah, 924 00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:12,960 Speaker 1: that ain't good. Dog. When you think of like, so 925 00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:20,080 Speaker 1: when I think of like just just statistics of like okay, uh, 926 00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:24,960 Speaker 1: some like some like three times three times more likely 927 00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:28,480 Speaker 1: if you're a black miner boy to be tried as 928 00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:34,880 Speaker 1: an adult. Uh, and then and given the harshest, like 929 00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:44,640 Speaker 1: the harshest possible sentence. It's like I used to wonder, like, okay, 930 00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:47,920 Speaker 1: when like when did how did y'all pull this off? 931 00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:51,120 Speaker 1: Like how like I just I couldn't, I couldn't do 932 00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:55,399 Speaker 1: the math, Like okay, so like why why why try 933 00:50:55,480 --> 00:51:00,319 Speaker 1: us as adults? Like I don't. I don't understand why 934 00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:03,799 Speaker 1: you think and why us more than anyone else. And 935 00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:07,120 Speaker 1: then you hear stories like this to where you're like, well, yeah, 936 00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:10,440 Speaker 1: I mean they you know, they routinely just you know, 937 00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:12,200 Speaker 1: we could take a lot of pain and then they 938 00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:14,319 Speaker 1: you know, it's well, I mean they've been torturing us 939 00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:16,520 Speaker 1: for a while, you know, so like and now you know, 940 00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:18,560 Speaker 1: you go you get to a time where, you know, 941 00:51:18,719 --> 00:51:20,840 Speaker 1: post civil rights, where like you said, like you can't 942 00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:27,880 Speaker 1: you can't just leave physical marks, and like, can I 943 00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:30,560 Speaker 1: actually torture fools? We have to figure out other ways 944 00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:33,360 Speaker 1: to do it, you know, we just Yeah, it's got 945 00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:37,280 Speaker 1: so you're continuing the problem. So it's like them getting cunning. 946 00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:40,560 Speaker 1: That's what I'm trying to get to. Them being cunning 947 00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:46,359 Speaker 1: is the tradition? Yes, yes, and then saying also this 948 00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:49,680 Speaker 1: thing that you have extensive documentation of happening never happens 949 00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:54,480 Speaker 1: when you're a liar. Believe us we're the cops. Yes, uh, 950 00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:56,640 Speaker 1: and it gets it gets, it gets worse. I'm gonna 951 00:51:56,680 --> 00:52:00,000 Speaker 1: quote again Fromniedermeyer Um. The report by the Wickership commit 952 00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:02,800 Speaker 1: Should highlighted numerous cases from Southern states in which police 953 00:52:02,840 --> 00:52:05,840 Speaker 1: officers and sheriffs used batons, fists, and whips to extort 954 00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:09,279 Speaker 1: confessions from black suspects. The report also documented the use 955 00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:12,480 Speaker 1: of the so called water cure on black suspects, a 956 00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:15,640 Speaker 1: forerunner to water boarding that US soldiers used during the 957 00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:20,080 Speaker 1: Philippine American War eighteen two. The water cure consisted of 958 00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:22,399 Speaker 1: tying suspects flat on their backs and using a hose 959 00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:24,560 Speaker 1: to force water into their mouths or noses until they 960 00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:28,200 Speaker 1: provided the requested information and made a confession. Furthermore, the 961 00:52:28,239 --> 00:52:31,200 Speaker 1: report mentioned torture methods on African Americans that included the 962 00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:34,440 Speaker 1: use of electricity. One of these involved in improvised electric chair, 963 00:52:34,440 --> 00:52:36,880 Speaker 1: which was used until nineteen twenty nine by the Sheriff's 964 00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:40,719 Speaker 1: office and Helena, Arkansas to extract confessions. The report also 965 00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:43,360 Speaker 1: pointed to individual cases of police torture of people of 966 00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:46,480 Speaker 1: Mexican origin and white suspects. The cases collected by the 967 00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:49,240 Speaker 1: Wickersham Commission indicate that the vast majority of the victims 968 00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:53,200 Speaker 1: in the South were African Americans, primarily men, but also women. Moreover, 969 00:52:53,239 --> 00:52:55,480 Speaker 1: they showed that police torture of African Americans in the 970 00:52:55,520 --> 00:52:59,600 Speaker 1: South was already commonplace before nineteen thirty. Diverse historical studies 971 00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:01,640 Speaker 1: could afirmed that this practice could be traced to the 972 00:53:01,719 --> 00:53:05,960 Speaker 1: days of slavery. It never ended. They just got cunning. 973 00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:11,000 Speaker 1: Yes there it is, yes, and and I love like 974 00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:13,400 Speaker 1: I love how you're you're bringing out the idea that like, 975 00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:17,520 Speaker 1: we're not we're not historical or visionists in the sense 976 00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:22,000 Speaker 1: to say that this is a uniquely black experience. That's 977 00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:24,600 Speaker 1: not to say that black have had Blacks have had 978 00:53:24,640 --> 00:53:27,840 Speaker 1: a unique experience in this. This is not a unique experience. 979 00:53:28,239 --> 00:53:31,200 Speaker 1: This is a This is a continual abuse of power 980 00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:37,360 Speaker 1: and a protection of wealth, resources and supremacy. And and 981 00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:40,600 Speaker 1: nobody is safe. Nobody is safe. That's part of the 982 00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:42,920 Speaker 1: that's part of the people started to realize a lot 983 00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:46,000 Speaker 1: of liberals who would have been broadly pro police, uh, 984 00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:49,040 Speaker 1: you know, have started to realize since getting tear gassed 985 00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:52,920 Speaker 1: and shot with rubber bullets by the cops, like safe, 986 00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:57,040 Speaker 1: if you give them the right to violently oppress one 987 00:53:57,040 --> 00:54:00,640 Speaker 1: group of people, they will start fucking with you. Yes, 988 00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:04,040 Speaker 1: it's the whole, it's the whole. First, they came for 989 00:54:04,080 --> 00:54:07,239 Speaker 1: the communist and I was not a communist. Like that's 990 00:54:07,280 --> 00:54:13,520 Speaker 1: how it works. It's fascism, Robert. You know what isn't 991 00:54:13,640 --> 00:54:20,319 Speaker 1: hopefully fascism the products and services that support this podcast, Yeah, yep, 992 00:54:20,600 --> 00:54:34,200 Speaker 1: not fascism all legally antifa, Um, hopefully Yeah, we're back. Okay, 993 00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:38,279 Speaker 1: So the through line, the direct line you can draw 994 00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:40,640 Speaker 1: from the use of force to suppress black people during slavery, 995 00:54:40,680 --> 00:54:43,360 Speaker 1: through the KKK and lynching to the third degree. That 996 00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:45,640 Speaker 1: through line is critical because what ties all of this 997 00:54:45,719 --> 00:54:49,319 Speaker 1: together is a desire by white people, in particularly not 998 00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:53,080 Speaker 1: just white people but white moneyed people, um in terms 999 00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:56,160 Speaker 1: of who's organizing this to fight against the establishment of 1000 00:54:56,200 --> 00:54:59,400 Speaker 1: black autonomy and equality and sort of weaponizing the rage 1001 00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:02,600 Speaker 1: that white poor people feel over being poor and turning 1002 00:55:02,600 --> 00:55:04,680 Speaker 1: that in a racist direction. Anyway, there's a lot that 1003 00:55:04,719 --> 00:55:08,439 Speaker 1: goes into this. Historian William Brundage, cited by Niedermeyer, sees 1004 00:55:08,440 --> 00:55:12,719 Speaker 1: white supremacy as continually contested to reign and when black 1005 00:55:12,719 --> 00:55:15,160 Speaker 1: people would fight back and gain the upper hand. However, 1006 00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:18,560 Speaker 1: briefly in this struggle, police were the most reliable tool 1007 00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:21,840 Speaker 1: whiteness had to fight back. This has been obvious to 1008 00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:26,120 Speaker 1: serious researchers for a very long time. Swedish sociologist Gunner 1009 00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:29,640 Speaker 1: Myrtle wrote in a nineteen forty four study titled an 1010 00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:34,040 Speaker 1: American Dilemma quote the policeman stands not only for civic 1011 00:55:34,160 --> 00:55:37,320 Speaker 1: order as defined in formal laws and regulations, but also 1012 00:55:37,440 --> 00:55:40,960 Speaker 1: for white supremacy and the whole set of social customs 1013 00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:44,600 Speaker 1: associated with this concept. It is demanded that even minor 1014 00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:48,000 Speaker 1: transgressions of cast etiquette should be punished, and the policeman 1015 00:55:48,120 --> 00:55:53,320 Speaker 1: is delegated to carry out this function. Nineteen forty four, 1016 00:55:54,080 --> 00:55:59,600 Speaker 1: Gunner saw it. Yeah, there's don't say you weren't warned. Yeah, 1017 00:55:59,680 --> 00:56:03,760 Speaker 1: people and tried. Yes, and yes, I love the idea 1018 00:56:03,800 --> 00:56:06,480 Speaker 1: that it's a Scandinavian country. Now. Yeah, the whitest dude 1019 00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:14,160 Speaker 1: in the world. What are y'all doing? This is a problem. Yeah. 1020 00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:17,160 Speaker 1: The federal government and federal law enforcement made attempts in 1021 00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:19,560 Speaker 1: the nineteen forties and nineteen fifties to push back against 1022 00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:21,759 Speaker 1: the torture and murder of black people by police. There 1023 00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:25,200 Speaker 1: were numerous investigations in two different sheriffs and police departments. 1024 00:56:25,280 --> 00:56:28,080 Speaker 1: Some of these investigations even lad to punishments, But as 1025 00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:30,319 Speaker 1: we saw in the Red Summer of nineteen nineteen, at 1026 00:56:30,320 --> 00:56:32,680 Speaker 1: the end of the day, black Americans had to rely 1027 00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:36,120 Speaker 1: on themselves in order to fight back. They did this 1028 00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:38,920 Speaker 1: in large part through the double a CP. These cases 1029 00:56:38,960 --> 00:56:41,200 Speaker 1: helped to drum up both public awareness of the problem 1030 00:56:41,200 --> 00:56:44,279 Speaker 1: and public support for changes to the system. You could 1031 00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:46,440 Speaker 1: draw an elect line between the double a CP spending 1032 00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:49,840 Speaker 1: decades fighting these cases. And why the murder of Emmett 1033 00:56:49,840 --> 00:56:53,400 Speaker 1: Till caused a massive nationwide reaction, even among a lot 1034 00:56:53,400 --> 00:56:55,960 Speaker 1: of white people. It's because they had laid the groundwork. 1035 00:56:56,120 --> 00:56:58,000 Speaker 1: And you can make a similar case for not just 1036 00:56:58,080 --> 00:56:59,400 Speaker 1: the end of a c P at this point, but 1037 00:56:59,440 --> 00:57:02,880 Speaker 1: like why specifically the murder of George Floyd finally caused 1038 00:57:02,880 --> 00:57:04,839 Speaker 1: for more seeing now, Yes, because you gotta you gotta 1039 00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:07,319 Speaker 1: go back from like from Rodney King all the way 1040 00:57:07,360 --> 00:57:10,879 Speaker 1: to Mike Brown. This. Yeah, there's like it's a continual like, 1041 00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:14,720 Speaker 1: oh my god, enough enough. Yeah, you gotta really prepare 1042 00:57:14,840 --> 00:57:16,800 Speaker 1: the white majority to give a shit about the murder 1043 00:57:16,800 --> 00:57:20,280 Speaker 1: of a black person. Is that I guess negatively looking 1044 00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:27,600 Speaker 1: at this yere yeah so um yeah. And again, the 1045 00:57:27,800 --> 00:57:31,800 Speaker 1: up eventually was successful through a number of cases, in 1046 00:57:31,800 --> 00:57:35,320 Speaker 1: in getting a series of Supreme Court decisions that significantly 1047 00:57:35,360 --> 00:57:39,320 Speaker 1: regulated and reduced the admissibility of forced confessions. Um. And 1048 00:57:39,320 --> 00:57:42,920 Speaker 1: that's that had that helped. But again regulation of the 1049 00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:45,720 Speaker 1: police in this regard, while it was a good thing, 1050 00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:49,000 Speaker 1: it did not cure the problem of confessions obtained under 1051 00:57:49,040 --> 00:57:52,000 Speaker 1: the third degree. It again just inspired the police to 1052 00:57:52,040 --> 00:57:56,320 Speaker 1: get subtler yes. In nineteen eighty nine, Gary Dotson became 1053 00:57:56,360 --> 00:57:59,000 Speaker 1: the first wrongfully convicted person to be proven innocent by 1054 00:57:59,080 --> 00:58:01,720 Speaker 1: DNA testing, and Gary was white. If you're curious. In 1055 00:58:01,720 --> 00:58:04,640 Speaker 1: the decades since, more than two people have been exonerated 1056 00:58:04,640 --> 00:58:09,400 Speaker 1: by DNA testing. In fifty of these cases, police induced 1057 00:58:09,440 --> 00:58:14,240 Speaker 1: false confessions were involved. Overall, twelve percent of overturned wrongful 1058 00:58:14,280 --> 00:58:17,600 Speaker 1: convictions in the last thirty years have involved a false confession, 1059 00:58:17,760 --> 00:58:20,920 Speaker 1: which we don't call a forced confession anymore but probably 1060 00:58:20,960 --> 00:58:27,120 Speaker 1: ought to. Yes, yeah, yeah, because no one falsely confesses. Yeah, 1061 00:58:27,280 --> 00:58:30,360 Speaker 1: they are forced to. Nobody's like, ah, you know, it's 1062 00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:32,720 Speaker 1: like you have a fender bender in traffic, Like I 1063 00:58:32,760 --> 00:58:35,480 Speaker 1: confess to rape. I'm so sorry. That was my like 1064 00:58:36,280 --> 00:58:39,880 Speaker 1: totally he just like, wait, you know what my bad? 1065 00:58:40,040 --> 00:58:43,160 Speaker 1: Did I say? Did I say I killed that guy? No? No, 1066 00:58:43,240 --> 00:58:45,920 Speaker 1: I mean I didn't kill that guy. My bad. You 1067 00:58:45,960 --> 00:58:52,680 Speaker 1: know I thought that Tuesday, I thought you saw my Tuesday. Yeah. No, no, no, No, 1068 00:58:52,720 --> 00:58:54,880 Speaker 1: I didn't say I admit to murder. I said I 1069 00:58:54,920 --> 00:58:58,240 Speaker 1: liked Fox Molder. I've been watching rewatching the X Files recently. 1070 00:58:58,280 --> 00:58:59,840 Speaker 1: It's my bad. It's you know what I'm saying, Like 1071 00:59:00,200 --> 00:59:04,680 Speaker 1: I fumbled my words. Yeah. The most shocking example of 1072 00:59:04,720 --> 00:59:06,840 Speaker 1: this might be the case of the Central Park five, 1073 00:59:06,960 --> 00:59:09,800 Speaker 1: also in nineteen nine. In this case, a white female 1074 00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:13,240 Speaker 1: jogger was beaten and raped. Five black and Hispanic children, 1075 00:59:13,280 --> 00:59:16,640 Speaker 1: all between fourteen and sixteen years old, were taken into custody. 1076 00:59:16,680 --> 00:59:20,400 Speaker 1: All five confessed, and then all five recanted their confessions, 1077 00:59:20,640 --> 00:59:23,800 Speaker 1: claiming they had only confessed after hours of terrifying and 1078 00:59:23,880 --> 00:59:27,920 Speaker 1: stressful police interrogation. They claimed that they had only admitted 1079 00:59:27,920 --> 00:59:30,800 Speaker 1: to committing the crime because officers had heavily insinuated they 1080 00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:33,600 Speaker 1: would get to go home if they did. All five 1081 00:59:33,640 --> 00:59:36,520 Speaker 1: were convicted and sent to prison. Donald Trump, then a 1082 00:59:36,520 --> 00:59:39,920 Speaker 1: prominent con man, repeatedly urged that the boy should be executed. 1083 00:59:40,160 --> 00:59:43,280 Speaker 1: In two thousand two, the real rapist confessed and DNA 1084 00:59:43,360 --> 00:59:46,320 Speaker 1: evidence confirmed his guilt in the innocence of all five boys. 1085 00:59:46,560 --> 00:59:49,479 Speaker 1: They were released. The case of the Central Park five 1086 00:59:49,520 --> 00:59:52,200 Speaker 1: sounds remarkably similar to the case of those three boys 1087 00:59:52,200 --> 00:59:57,120 Speaker 1: in Mississippi, doesn't it. Yes, and it should seem very 1088 00:59:57,120 --> 01:00:00,920 Speaker 1: familiar with you, because just because a certain uh uh, 1089 01:00:01,160 --> 01:00:05,680 Speaker 1: certain elected official was invested in making sure that they 1090 01:00:05,680 --> 01:00:09,840 Speaker 1: stayed in prison. Yes, yes, uh and yeah. The case 1091 01:00:09,920 --> 01:00:13,200 Speaker 1: of the Central Park five. Yeah, in this case, the 1092 01:00:13,240 --> 01:00:15,320 Speaker 1: boys you know, in the case that we read earlier, 1093 01:00:15,520 --> 01:00:19,000 Speaker 1: um in Mississippi, those boys were straight up physically tortured. 1094 01:00:19,400 --> 01:00:22,240 Speaker 1: What the Central Park five endured is much subtler, but 1095 01:00:22,440 --> 01:00:25,160 Speaker 1: some people might call it torture. And this brings me 1096 01:00:25,200 --> 01:00:29,240 Speaker 1: to discussion of the read technique. The read technique is 1097 01:00:29,280 --> 01:00:32,040 Speaker 1: an interrogation tactic invented in nineteen sixty two by a 1098 01:00:32,080 --> 01:00:35,400 Speaker 1: former cop and a polygraph expert. You may recognize the 1099 01:00:35,480 --> 01:00:37,880 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty two is just right around the same time 1100 01:00:37,880 --> 01:00:39,919 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court said, y'all got to stop forcing people 1101 01:00:39,920 --> 01:00:43,000 Speaker 1: to confess the crimes they didn't commit via torture. John Reid, 1102 01:00:43,080 --> 01:00:45,600 Speaker 1: the techniques creator, had a reputation for being the kind 1103 01:00:45,600 --> 01:00:49,480 Speaker 1: of guy who used psychology to get confessions rather than violence. 1104 01:00:49,960 --> 01:00:52,640 Speaker 1: The origin of his technique came from a nineteen fifty 1105 01:00:52,640 --> 01:00:55,040 Speaker 1: five case when a guy named Darryl Parker came home 1106 01:00:55,080 --> 01:00:58,280 Speaker 1: to find his wife raped and murdered. Parker was interrogated, and, 1107 01:00:58,360 --> 01:01:01,480 Speaker 1: according to the New Yorker quote, Reid hooked Parker up 1108 01:01:01,520 --> 01:01:04,560 Speaker 1: to the polygraph and started asking questions. Parker couldn't see 1109 01:01:04,560 --> 01:01:06,440 Speaker 1: the movement of the needles, but each time he answered 1110 01:01:06,440 --> 01:01:08,360 Speaker 1: a question about the murder, Reid told him that he 1111 01:01:08,400 --> 01:01:11,040 Speaker 1: was lying. As the hours wore on, Reid began to 1112 01:01:11,080 --> 01:01:14,640 Speaker 1: introduce a story contrary to appearances. He said the Parker's 1113 01:01:14,680 --> 01:01:17,720 Speaker 1: marriage wasn't a happy one. Nancy refused to give Parker 1114 01:01:17,760 --> 01:01:20,520 Speaker 1: the sex that he required, and she flirted with other men. 1115 01:01:20,960 --> 01:01:24,000 Speaker 1: One day, in a rage, Parker took what was rightfully his. 1116 01:01:24,400 --> 01:01:27,680 Speaker 1: After nine hours of interrogation, Parker broke down and confessed. 1117 01:01:27,840 --> 01:01:30,160 Speaker 1: He recanted the next day, but a jury found him 1118 01:01:30,160 --> 01:01:32,680 Speaker 1: guilty of murder and sentenced him to life in prison. 1119 01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:37,080 Speaker 1: Now Read was like, Oh, this is the way we 1120 01:01:37,080 --> 01:01:41,240 Speaker 1: should always do interrogations. Uh, and he refined his strategy 1121 01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:44,920 Speaker 1: into a technique which generally boils down to elaborately accusing 1122 01:01:44,920 --> 01:01:47,480 Speaker 1: the suspect of committing a detailed crime. After hours and 1123 01:01:47,520 --> 01:01:51,000 Speaker 1: hours of interrogation. Read opened a consulting company which, by 1124 01:01:51,040 --> 01:01:54,360 Speaker 1: two thousand thirteen trained more interrogators than any other company 1125 01:01:54,400 --> 01:01:57,280 Speaker 1: in the world, working for everything from local police to 1126 01:01:57,320 --> 01:02:00,000 Speaker 1: the FBI, the CIA, in the Secret Service. The company 1127 01:02:00,000 --> 01:02:02,240 Speaker 1: any brags that the people that trains get their suspects 1128 01:02:02,240 --> 01:02:07,040 Speaker 1: to confess of the time, bro just think, think about 1129 01:02:07,080 --> 01:02:09,400 Speaker 1: what we're telling you right now, you have to be 1130 01:02:11,200 --> 01:02:21,920 Speaker 1: a absolute like Navy seal level mental agility and fortitude 1131 01:02:22,520 --> 01:02:26,600 Speaker 1: to defend yourself when you're innocent, like when I actually 1132 01:02:26,720 --> 01:02:30,080 Speaker 1: didn't do the thing. I have to be this skilled, 1133 01:02:30,840 --> 01:02:33,760 Speaker 1: you said, which is why you wait for your lawyer, 1134 01:02:34,240 --> 01:02:37,200 Speaker 1: which is why you have a right to remain silent. 1135 01:02:38,600 --> 01:02:44,840 Speaker 1: Shut the fuck. Uh. Yeah, the Read technique was used 1136 01:02:44,840 --> 01:02:46,960 Speaker 1: on the Central Park five and numerous other people who 1137 01:02:47,000 --> 01:02:49,280 Speaker 1: have confessed to crimes they did not commit. Now, the 1138 01:02:49,400 --> 01:02:52,040 Speaker 1: Read company h and its president will say that that 1139 01:02:52,160 --> 01:02:54,640 Speaker 1: is not accurate, that they were not using the Read technique, 1140 01:02:54,640 --> 01:02:57,080 Speaker 1: and it's largely because they didn't do it right. That's 1141 01:02:57,080 --> 01:02:59,600 Speaker 1: what they'll claim is that, like false confessions are only 1142 01:02:59,640 --> 01:03:03,000 Speaker 1: there is of abuse or misuse of the technique because 1143 01:03:03,000 --> 01:03:05,680 Speaker 1: the technique has safeguards in it to make sure that 1144 01:03:05,720 --> 01:03:09,000 Speaker 1: no false confessions are obtained by it. So when people 1145 01:03:09,040 --> 01:03:12,240 Speaker 1: who are trained in the Read technique get confessions from 1146 01:03:12,280 --> 01:03:15,040 Speaker 1: innocent people, it's not because of the Read technique, it's 1147 01:03:15,040 --> 01:03:18,600 Speaker 1: because they were wrongly using the Read technique. That makes 1148 01:03:18,640 --> 01:03:23,120 Speaker 1: it cool? Can you the pretzel you just put your 1149 01:03:23,120 --> 01:03:26,280 Speaker 1: body in? Wow? Okay, Yeah, it wouldn't be great to 1150 01:03:26,320 --> 01:03:29,840 Speaker 1: be able to just like to be able to just 1151 01:03:30,480 --> 01:03:35,439 Speaker 1: with a straight face and no like soul conviction. Your 1152 01:03:35,480 --> 01:03:38,400 Speaker 1: soul is so dead inside that you could make that 1153 01:03:38,440 --> 01:03:41,680 Speaker 1: sentence and be okay with it. Yeah. It's like if 1154 01:03:41,720 --> 01:03:44,400 Speaker 1: I have a school that trains people to fire over 1155 01:03:44,440 --> 01:03:47,160 Speaker 1: the heads of crowds with assault rifles, and then some 1156 01:03:47,200 --> 01:03:50,040 Speaker 1: people fire into the crowds with assault rifles. Clearly none 1157 01:03:50,040 --> 01:03:51,640 Speaker 1: of that's my Like, I have nothing to do with that. 1158 01:03:52,280 --> 01:03:55,720 Speaker 1: The heads I've fled fire told you shoot over the head. Yeah, 1159 01:03:56,000 --> 01:04:03,080 Speaker 1: there's a safeguard to make sure no one gets hit. Uh. Yeah. 1160 01:04:03,240 --> 01:04:05,760 Speaker 1: So the read technique has started to fall out of 1161 01:04:05,800 --> 01:04:08,200 Speaker 1: favor in the last really in the last few years, 1162 01:04:08,200 --> 01:04:11,920 Speaker 1: and seventeen was when like one big agency stopped sending 1163 01:04:11,960 --> 01:04:13,960 Speaker 1: interrogators and to be trained in it. And it this 1164 01:04:14,000 --> 01:04:16,200 Speaker 1: seems to have like you know you mentioned earlier. I 1165 01:04:16,200 --> 01:04:18,640 Speaker 1: think it was to catch a predator, right, Um that 1166 01:04:18,640 --> 01:04:21,880 Speaker 1: that the like the fact that a lot of interrogations 1167 01:04:21,880 --> 01:04:23,560 Speaker 1: are videotaped and that some of those came out in 1168 01:04:23,600 --> 01:04:25,880 Speaker 1: documentaries and people got to see, oh my god, is 1169 01:04:25,920 --> 01:04:30,040 Speaker 1: this what cops are doing? Yeah, this isn't okay. So 1170 01:04:30,400 --> 01:04:33,560 Speaker 1: it is still very common, still widely in use. But 1171 01:04:33,840 --> 01:04:37,280 Speaker 1: the tide might seems to be turning on the read technique. 1172 01:04:37,320 --> 01:04:40,600 Speaker 1: We'll see. Um, it is not legal for police to 1173 01:04:40,600 --> 01:04:42,640 Speaker 1: beat the ship out of suspects to force a confession, 1174 01:04:42,680 --> 01:04:44,520 Speaker 1: not anymore, and I guess you could see even the 1175 01:04:44,560 --> 01:04:48,760 Speaker 1: read technique as an improvement over literal physical torture. Um. 1176 01:04:48,800 --> 01:04:51,200 Speaker 1: But it is legal for police to lie about evidence, 1177 01:04:51,240 --> 01:04:53,480 Speaker 1: to withhold food and water from suspects for what I 1178 01:04:53,520 --> 01:04:55,480 Speaker 1: would consider to be long periods of time, and to 1179 01:04:55,520 --> 01:04:58,320 Speaker 1: subject them to verbal abuse and psychologically torture them until 1180 01:04:58,360 --> 01:05:00,720 Speaker 1: they see confessing is the only way out. I can't 1181 01:05:00,760 --> 01:05:03,240 Speaker 1: say if the read technique is responsible from most false 1182 01:05:03,240 --> 01:05:05,760 Speaker 1: confessions in the modern United States, but I can't tell 1183 01:05:05,800 --> 01:05:08,760 Speaker 1: you the police department that is responsible for more false 1184 01:05:08,760 --> 01:05:14,680 Speaker 1: confessions than any other. You want to guess, No, Chicago, 1185 01:05:15,360 --> 01:05:20,680 Speaker 1: it was gonna be one of the two, right, Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1186 01:05:20,880 --> 01:05:25,320 Speaker 1: More than thirty of all exonerations that involve false confessions 1187 01:05:25,920 --> 01:05:28,880 Speaker 1: were people who confessed in Illinois state, and most of 1188 01:05:28,880 --> 01:05:30,880 Speaker 1: those were people who confess to the Chicago p D. 1189 01:05:31,240 --> 01:05:33,800 Speaker 1: And the question to why is this happening has a 1190 01:05:33,840 --> 01:05:39,520 Speaker 1: lot to do with a dude named John Burge. Yeah yeah, 1191 01:05:39,560 --> 01:05:44,440 Speaker 1: so yeah, like a little a little side note especially 1192 01:05:44,480 --> 01:05:46,480 Speaker 1: about what what you're talking about, like how some of 1193 01:05:46,520 --> 01:05:50,240 Speaker 1: these confessions happen, and how slick they are because like say, 1194 01:05:50,280 --> 01:05:56,440 Speaker 1: for example, you hear on the news that somebody died 1195 01:05:57,480 --> 01:06:01,800 Speaker 1: on Fourth Street, right, So then when you get picked 1196 01:06:01,880 --> 01:06:04,200 Speaker 1: up and then cops go, hey, did you hear about 1197 01:06:04,200 --> 01:06:08,040 Speaker 1: the shooting on Fourth Street? And you're like yeah, and 1198 01:06:08,040 --> 01:06:10,560 Speaker 1: then he goes, yeah, that the that the lady was 1199 01:06:10,600 --> 01:06:13,000 Speaker 1: coming out of the house, and you're like, yeah, I 1200 01:06:13,080 --> 01:06:15,280 Speaker 1: heard that. First of all, the story wasn't that there 1201 01:06:15,320 --> 01:06:19,360 Speaker 1: was a shooting. The story was somebody died. So when 1202 01:06:19,400 --> 01:06:22,160 Speaker 1: he said did you hear about the shooting, what he's 1203 01:06:22,240 --> 01:06:26,120 Speaker 1: doing is making sure you just confessed to information. They 1204 01:06:26,120 --> 01:06:28,800 Speaker 1: said he had information about the crime. And because you 1205 01:06:29,160 --> 01:06:31,160 Speaker 1: it's like, I didn't say shooting. You said shooting. Well no, 1206 01:06:31,160 --> 01:06:32,440 Speaker 1: no, no no, no no, I just asked if you heard 1207 01:06:32,480 --> 01:06:34,280 Speaker 1: about You said you heard about it. I didn't tell you. 1208 01:06:34,880 --> 01:06:37,520 Speaker 1: The story isn't that there's a shooting. So like how 1209 01:06:37,600 --> 01:06:42,520 Speaker 1: slick that type of like practice is. And you listen, 1210 01:06:43,800 --> 01:06:46,360 Speaker 1: I'm telling you this stuff out of experience, you know 1211 01:06:46,400 --> 01:06:48,520 Speaker 1: what I'm saying, Like somebody saying, hey, you hear the 1212 01:06:48,560 --> 01:06:50,640 Speaker 1: liquor store got robbed out. Hey you heard about that 1213 01:06:50,680 --> 01:06:54,360 Speaker 1: liquor store robbed Like I had to learn to be like, nah, 1214 01:06:54,560 --> 01:06:57,640 Speaker 1: I ain't heard ship, I don't heard nothing. I mean, 1215 01:06:57,920 --> 01:07:00,160 Speaker 1: I don't know, you know what I'm saying. What mean 1216 01:07:00,200 --> 01:07:02,000 Speaker 1: you don't know? You're not your square, You're not part 1217 01:07:02,040 --> 01:07:03,720 Speaker 1: of You're not part of the streets. You know. I've 1218 01:07:03,720 --> 01:07:06,280 Speaker 1: seen you with your friends and I'm like, uh, sorry, 1219 01:07:06,320 --> 01:07:08,240 Speaker 1: I don't live here, you know, just like you have 1220 01:07:08,280 --> 01:07:12,560 Speaker 1: to like be Yeah. Anyway, all that to say, this 1221 01:07:12,640 --> 01:07:15,880 Speaker 1: stuff is like as like heinous as we're telling you. 1222 01:07:16,000 --> 01:07:19,480 Speaker 1: It's so subtle and it's so slick, you know what 1223 01:07:19,480 --> 01:07:23,520 Speaker 1: I'm saying, Like everybody swears, Well, well, if I was 1224 01:07:23,520 --> 01:07:25,440 Speaker 1: in the situation, I'm like, na, you, you would do 1225 01:07:25,560 --> 01:07:28,720 Speaker 1: exactly what everyone else does in the situation. Yeah, yeah, 1226 01:07:28,760 --> 01:07:30,760 Speaker 1: which is why you don't talk and you wait for 1227 01:07:30,800 --> 01:07:35,960 Speaker 1: your fucking lawyer. Yes yeah. John, John motherfucking birds, John 1228 01:07:36,000 --> 01:07:38,320 Speaker 1: Burge is proof that the old tactics of the third 1229 01:07:38,360 --> 01:07:41,040 Speaker 1: degree still aren't as much a part of the past 1230 01:07:41,080 --> 01:07:44,320 Speaker 1: as some folks might like to believe. John Burge was 1231 01:07:44,360 --> 01:07:47,680 Speaker 1: a decorated Vietnam veteran who served as a military police officer, 1232 01:07:47,720 --> 01:07:50,720 Speaker 1: working for a time as a provost marshal investigator during 1233 01:07:50,720 --> 01:07:53,520 Speaker 1: that conflict. After the war, he returned to Chicago and 1234 01:07:53,560 --> 01:07:56,240 Speaker 1: became a cop. In nineteen seventy two. He was promoted 1235 01:07:56,240 --> 01:07:59,160 Speaker 1: to detective one year later. In nineteen seventy three, he 1236 01:07:59,280 --> 01:08:03,200 Speaker 1: tortured his victim. According to the Marshall Project quote, his 1237 01:08:03,280 --> 01:08:06,080 Speaker 1: officers had arrested a man named Anthony Holmes on suspicion 1238 01:08:06,120 --> 01:08:08,920 Speaker 1: of murder and wanted to him to identify an accomplice. 1239 01:08:09,000 --> 01:08:11,520 Speaker 1: When Holmes refused, the officers left him handcuffed in an 1240 01:08:11,520 --> 01:08:14,560 Speaker 1: area to investigation room and went to find Burge. A 1241 01:08:14,560 --> 01:08:17,200 Speaker 1: few minutes later, Bird strolled into the interrogation room with 1242 01:08:17,240 --> 01:08:20,439 Speaker 1: a mysterious box in a brown paper bag. The box 1243 01:08:20,479 --> 01:08:23,000 Speaker 1: had a hand crank on one end and two wires 1244 01:08:23,120 --> 01:08:26,040 Speaker 1: with alligator clamps coming out the other end. According to 1245 01:08:26,080 --> 01:08:29,120 Speaker 1: trial testimony decades later, Burge then picked up the alligator 1246 01:08:29,160 --> 01:08:32,320 Speaker 1: clamps and barked inward, you're going to tell me what 1247 01:08:32,439 --> 01:08:35,280 Speaker 1: I want to know. He fastened the alligator clamps and 1248 01:08:35,320 --> 01:08:38,360 Speaker 1: pulled a plastic bag down over Holmes's head, warning him 1249 01:08:38,439 --> 01:08:40,720 Speaker 1: not to bite through it when the pain hit. Then 1250 01:08:40,760 --> 01:08:45,760 Speaker 1: he started turning the crank. He was electrocuting him. She's 1251 01:08:46,520 --> 01:08:50,640 Speaker 1: over the next few yeah uh yeah yeah. Over the 1252 01:08:50,640 --> 01:08:53,479 Speaker 1: next few years, Burge continued to be his department's go 1253 01:08:53,560 --> 01:08:56,679 Speaker 1: to torture man. Department rumors stated that he had learned 1254 01:08:56,720 --> 01:08:59,160 Speaker 1: the techniques he employed during his time in Vietnam on 1255 01:08:59,200 --> 01:09:02,760 Speaker 1: the bodies of North Vietnamese po ws. You call we 1256 01:09:02,800 --> 01:09:06,439 Speaker 1: call this fucos boomerang, the tactics used in colonial wars overseas. 1257 01:09:06,479 --> 01:09:09,120 Speaker 1: Coming back to the United States, Birge denies that he 1258 01:09:09,160 --> 01:09:12,040 Speaker 1: tortured anyone in Vietnam. He also denied torturing people here, 1259 01:09:12,080 --> 01:09:15,280 Speaker 1: so maybe you don't take that super seriously. Um yeah. 1260 01:09:15,520 --> 01:09:19,320 Speaker 1: He quickly perfected what he called his inward box, which 1261 01:09:19,320 --> 01:09:21,600 Speaker 1: is what he named the box he used to electrocute 1262 01:09:21,640 --> 01:09:24,640 Speaker 1: black people, often electrocuting their testicles. I've talked to one 1263 01:09:24,680 --> 01:09:26,680 Speaker 1: of Burge's victims, and that's what Birch did to him 1264 01:09:26,680 --> 01:09:30,479 Speaker 1: as he electrocuted his testicles with his inward box. Um yeah, 1265 01:09:30,520 --> 01:09:32,559 Speaker 1: there's there's a there's which is a whole other story 1266 01:09:32,600 --> 01:09:35,000 Speaker 1: I want to get to. But there's this weird fascination 1267 01:09:35,040 --> 01:09:39,920 Speaker 1: with torturing of black genitalia with It's very common in lynching, 1268 01:09:40,240 --> 01:09:42,320 Speaker 1: very common in lynching, that they would be severed and 1269 01:09:42,360 --> 01:09:45,400 Speaker 1: even taken as like souvenirs. Yeah, and it's one of 1270 01:09:45,439 --> 01:09:48,679 Speaker 1: those like my eternal question putting through how much detail 1271 01:09:48,720 --> 01:09:50,799 Speaker 1: do I go into? We could have done six episodes 1272 01:09:50,840 --> 01:09:54,320 Speaker 1: on lynching, and it deserves six episodes, but not trying 1273 01:09:54,320 --> 01:09:56,439 Speaker 1: to give a broader No, I appreciate it like that 1274 01:09:56,560 --> 01:10:00,559 Speaker 1: not being mentioned. Yeah, yeah, it's a thing because of 1275 01:10:00,560 --> 01:10:03,360 Speaker 1: his high case clearance rate, because he gave boy John's 1276 01:10:03,360 --> 01:10:05,960 Speaker 1: real good at getting criminals to confess. He's solving all 1277 01:10:06,000 --> 01:10:08,920 Speaker 1: these murders. Because of his high case clearance rate, John 1278 01:10:09,000 --> 01:10:11,400 Speaker 1: was promoted to sergent and then to lieutenant and eventually 1279 01:10:11,439 --> 01:10:14,960 Speaker 1: to commander. John Burge's behavior was not hidden from other 1280 01:10:15,000 --> 01:10:18,120 Speaker 1: men in the Chicago Police. He kept his inward box 1281 01:10:18,160 --> 01:10:21,200 Speaker 1: out on open display at a table in the police station. 1282 01:10:21,520 --> 01:10:25,320 Speaker 1: He trained dozens of other Chicago officers in his techniques, 1283 01:10:25,479 --> 01:10:28,639 Speaker 1: which expanded over the years to include electric cattle prods, 1284 01:10:28,680 --> 01:10:32,720 Speaker 1: simulate and simulated executions. Burgess officers often beat subjects with 1285 01:10:32,760 --> 01:10:36,320 Speaker 1: telephone books, flashlights, batons, and bats. They burned men with 1286 01:10:36,400 --> 01:10:39,640 Speaker 1: hot radiators and cigarettes. They put plastic bags over the 1287 01:10:39,680 --> 01:10:42,640 Speaker 1: heads of others and suffocated them. This went on for 1288 01:10:42,720 --> 01:10:47,120 Speaker 1: a very very long time. The end began in nineteen 1289 01:10:47,320 --> 01:10:50,439 Speaker 1: eighty two, when two police officers were murdered and Burge 1290 01:10:50,439 --> 01:10:52,160 Speaker 1: and his team tortured the ship out of a pair 1291 01:10:52,200 --> 01:10:55,439 Speaker 1: of black brothers until they confessed. The injuries one of 1292 01:10:55,439 --> 01:10:59,439 Speaker 1: them suffered were significant enough that a medical official reported 1293 01:10:59,439 --> 01:11:01,519 Speaker 1: on them, and that was the first crack in the 1294 01:11:01,560 --> 01:11:05,040 Speaker 1: Burge system. Allegations of torture by Burge and his men, though, 1295 01:11:05,080 --> 01:11:07,360 Speaker 1: didn't break through the blue wall of silence until a 1296 01:11:07,479 --> 01:11:10,960 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty nine civil lawsuit by the People's Law Office. 1297 01:11:11,400 --> 01:11:13,840 Speaker 1: One of the attorneys behind this case, who later represented 1298 01:11:13,840 --> 01:11:17,400 Speaker 1: many Burge victims, was Flint Taylor. He described the existence 1299 01:11:17,400 --> 01:11:21,000 Speaker 1: of Burge's unit as an unremitting official cover up that 1300 01:11:21,080 --> 01:11:25,040 Speaker 1: has implicated a series of police superintendents, numerous prosecutors, more 1301 01:11:25,080 --> 01:11:29,880 Speaker 1: than thirty police detectives and supervisors, and most notably Richard M. Daley, 1302 01:11:29,960 --> 01:11:33,680 Speaker 1: the city's former longtime mayor and a previous state's attorney. 1303 01:11:34,040 --> 01:11:36,320 Speaker 1: The whole story came out in bits and pieces through 1304 01:11:36,320 --> 01:11:38,880 Speaker 1: a mix of victims coming forward in anonymous sources within 1305 01:11:38,920 --> 01:11:41,519 Speaker 1: the department. One of these anonymous sources was a cop 1306 01:11:41,560 --> 01:11:45,679 Speaker 1: who left again anonymous voice messages for Flint Taylor. Taylor 1307 01:11:45,720 --> 01:11:49,040 Speaker 1: and his fellows nicknamed this guy Deep Badge. So part 1308 01:11:49,040 --> 01:11:51,640 Speaker 1: of the lesson here is that after seventeen years of 1309 01:11:51,680 --> 01:11:54,439 Speaker 1: torture that was enthusiastically supported at every level of the 1310 01:11:54,520 --> 01:11:57,280 Speaker 1: Chicago p D, a couple of good cops did finally 1311 01:11:57,320 --> 01:11:59,559 Speaker 1: work up the courage to leave anonymous voice mails after 1312 01:11:59,640 --> 01:12:01,280 Speaker 1: a law year had figured out the basics of the 1313 01:12:01,280 --> 01:12:06,080 Speaker 1: case and publicized them. That's what good cops get you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 1314 01:12:06,080 --> 01:12:08,240 Speaker 1: there's like three of them and then and it takes 1315 01:12:08,240 --> 01:12:12,240 Speaker 1: me seventeen years to do anything. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. 1316 01:12:12,479 --> 01:12:15,200 Speaker 1: Burge was eventually accused of torturing more than a hundred people, 1317 01:12:15,280 --> 01:12:17,800 Speaker 1: virtually all of whom were black, between nineteen seventy two 1318 01:12:17,800 --> 01:12:24,639 Speaker 1: and nineteen ninety one. That means recent. Yeah, at this point, 1319 01:12:24,640 --> 01:12:27,320 Speaker 1: we know that there's probably over two hundred victims. We 1320 01:12:27,360 --> 01:12:29,559 Speaker 1: will never know the true number of Birge victims because 1321 01:12:29,600 --> 01:12:30,960 Speaker 1: been a lot of these guys were executed, a lot 1322 01:12:31,000 --> 01:12:34,760 Speaker 1: of them died in prison. In the Chicago Police Board 1323 01:12:34,840 --> 01:12:38,160 Speaker 1: voted to fire John Burge. This interrupted plans the local 1324 01:12:38,160 --> 01:12:40,360 Speaker 1: Fraternal Order of Police had made that same year to 1325 01:12:40,479 --> 01:12:43,040 Speaker 1: honor Burge and four of their officers with a parade float. 1326 01:12:43,240 --> 01:12:45,720 Speaker 1: All of the other four officers were also accused of 1327 01:12:45,720 --> 01:12:48,840 Speaker 1: torturing people, but the time he was fired, Burge had 1328 01:12:48,920 --> 01:12:51,599 Speaker 1: risen to the rank of commander. He was not charged 1329 01:12:51,640 --> 01:12:54,519 Speaker 1: criminally until two thousand eight and not sent to prison 1330 01:12:54,600 --> 01:12:57,240 Speaker 1: until two thousand eleven. He got out of prison in 1331 01:12:57,280 --> 01:13:00,920 Speaker 1: two thousand fourteen. Chicago has paid out millions of dollars 1332 01:13:00,960 --> 01:13:03,719 Speaker 1: in reparations to victims, but an unknown number of Burge's 1333 01:13:03,760 --> 01:13:06,800 Speaker 1: victims still remain in prison. Multiple people were released from 1334 01:13:06,800 --> 01:13:08,519 Speaker 1: death row as a result of all of this coming 1335 01:13:08,520 --> 01:13:10,760 Speaker 1: to light, but we will again never know how many 1336 01:13:10,800 --> 01:13:14,679 Speaker 1: innocent men were executed. Burge died in two thousand eighteen, 1337 01:13:14,880 --> 01:13:18,000 Speaker 1: four years after he was released from prison. Chicago's police 1338 01:13:18,080 --> 01:13:21,520 Speaker 1: union issued a statement on their Facebook page offering condolences 1339 01:13:21,520 --> 01:13:24,240 Speaker 1: to the Burge family and insisting it does not believe 1340 01:13:24,280 --> 01:13:27,000 Speaker 1: the full story about the Burge cases has ever been told. 1341 01:13:27,560 --> 01:13:30,639 Speaker 1: Dean Angelo, former head of the Chicago Reternal Order of Police, 1342 01:13:30,760 --> 01:13:33,280 Speaker 1: told reporters, I don't know that John Burge got a 1343 01:13:33,280 --> 01:13:34,920 Speaker 1: fair shake based on all the years and years of 1344 01:13:34,960 --> 01:13:37,719 Speaker 1: service that he gave the city. He insisted that Burge 1345 01:13:37,960 --> 01:13:42,639 Speaker 1: put a lot of bad guys in prison two thousand eighteen. 1346 01:13:42,720 --> 01:13:44,759 Speaker 1: The cops who believe this are still on the force. 1347 01:13:45,840 --> 01:13:55,719 Speaker 1: Just guys there, most of the force. Ah, yeah, guys. Yeah. Yeah, 1348 01:13:56,360 --> 01:14:00,880 Speaker 1: you're asking you're asking us to respect you, and it's 1349 01:14:00,920 --> 01:14:05,880 Speaker 1: like I would love to I would love to respect. Yeah, 1350 01:14:06,240 --> 01:14:10,439 Speaker 1: just do respectable things. Yeah. Yeah. You know who I respect. 1351 01:14:11,000 --> 01:14:15,000 Speaker 1: My my neighbor across the street who has never tortured 1352 01:14:15,400 --> 01:14:18,559 Speaker 1: several hundred people. That guy, I respect him. Yeah, he's 1353 01:14:18,640 --> 01:14:20,880 Speaker 1: He's earned my respect by virtue of being a human 1354 01:14:20,920 --> 01:14:26,479 Speaker 1: being who doesn't commit random acts of violence. Yeah. It's 1355 01:14:26,479 --> 01:14:33,120 Speaker 1: not hard to earn respect. You just have to not yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 1356 01:14:33,320 --> 01:14:35,559 Speaker 1: So I'm sure that Burge did go to his grave 1357 01:14:35,640 --> 01:14:37,680 Speaker 1: believing that, like what he did had been worth it, 1358 01:14:37,720 --> 01:14:40,080 Speaker 1: because he again put a lot of bad guys in prison. 1359 01:14:40,680 --> 01:14:43,240 Speaker 1: I talked to one of Burge's victims, and this guy 1360 01:14:43,280 --> 01:14:46,160 Speaker 1: had an extensive violent criminal record when he wound up 1361 01:14:46,160 --> 01:14:48,880 Speaker 1: in Burge's hands. He had done bad things, and John 1362 01:14:48,960 --> 01:14:52,920 Speaker 1: probably figured we've got a crime. This guy's a scumbag fucket, 1363 01:14:52,920 --> 01:14:56,000 Speaker 1: he's got to be guilty. And oddly enough, that thinking, 1364 01:14:56,080 --> 01:14:58,799 Speaker 1: the thinking that John Burge probably used to justify his crimes. 1365 01:14:58,800 --> 01:15:01,599 Speaker 1: The thinking that the sh Ago Police Department in the 1366 01:15:01,680 --> 01:15:04,719 Speaker 1: Fraternal Order of Police in Chicago certainly uses to justify 1367 01:15:04,840 --> 01:15:08,520 Speaker 1: Burgess crimes even today, that thinking these guys were guilty, 1368 01:15:08,560 --> 01:15:11,280 Speaker 1: that thinking puts them all right in line with the 1369 01:15:11,360 --> 01:15:15,200 Speaker 1: law abiding interrogators who used the read technique. Richard Leo, 1370 01:15:15,280 --> 01:15:17,679 Speaker 1: a law professor from the University of San Francisco, spent 1371 01:15:17,760 --> 01:15:20,719 Speaker 1: nine months sitting in an almost two interrogations in Oakland 1372 01:15:20,800 --> 01:15:23,439 Speaker 1: during the mid nineteen nineties. He learned that most officers 1373 01:15:23,439 --> 01:15:24,840 Speaker 1: who are again these guys, were all trained in the 1374 01:15:24,840 --> 01:15:27,320 Speaker 1: read technique. He learned that most officers were skipping a 1375 01:15:27,320 --> 01:15:30,320 Speaker 1: critical aspect of the proper read technique. That aspect is 1376 01:15:30,320 --> 01:15:32,880 Speaker 1: having an initial interview with the suspect. You're supposed to 1377 01:15:32,920 --> 01:15:35,200 Speaker 1: like interview them, have like a normal conversation with them, 1378 01:15:35,439 --> 01:15:37,679 Speaker 1: and kind of decide if you think they're guilty before 1379 01:15:37,680 --> 01:15:40,240 Speaker 1: you move on to the interrogation. I'm going to quote 1380 01:15:40,240 --> 01:15:43,680 Speaker 1: from the New Yorker again. The read interrogation technique is 1381 01:15:43,720 --> 01:15:47,920 Speaker 1: predicated upon an accurate determination during behavioral analysis of whether 1382 01:15:47,920 --> 01:15:50,880 Speaker 1: the suspect is lying. Here to social scientists find a 1383 01:15:50,880 --> 01:15:53,519 Speaker 1: reason for concern three decades of research have shown that 1384 01:15:53,560 --> 01:15:56,559 Speaker 1: nonverbal signals so prized by the red trainers, bear no 1385 01:15:56,680 --> 01:16:00,080 Speaker 1: relation to deception. In fact, people have little more and 1386 01:16:00,160 --> 01:16:02,719 Speaker 1: coin flipping odds of guessing if someone is telling the truth, 1387 01:16:02,920 --> 01:16:07,080 Speaker 1: and numerous surveys have shown that police do know better. Aldert, 1388 01:16:07,560 --> 01:16:10,200 Speaker 1: a professor of psychology at the University of Portsmouth and England, 1389 01:16:10,240 --> 01:16:13,160 Speaker 1: found that law enforcement experience does not necessarily improve the 1390 01:16:13,200 --> 01:16:16,400 Speaker 1: ability to detect lies. Among police officers, those who said 1391 01:16:16,400 --> 01:16:20,040 Speaker 1: they paid close attention to nonverbal cues did the worst. Similarly, 1392 01:16:20,240 --> 01:16:23,080 Speaker 1: an experiment by Cason shows that both students and police 1393 01:16:23,080 --> 01:16:25,639 Speaker 1: officers were better at telling true confessions from false ones 1394 01:16:25,640 --> 01:16:28,040 Speaker 1: when they listened to an audio recording of an interview 1395 01:16:28,240 --> 01:16:30,880 Speaker 1: rather than watch it on video. In the experiment, the 1396 01:16:30,920 --> 01:16:33,320 Speaker 1: police officers who performed less well than the students but 1397 01:16:33,439 --> 01:16:36,599 Speaker 1: expressed greater confidence in their ability to tell who was lying. 1398 01:16:38,080 --> 01:16:40,160 Speaker 1: Cops will always tell you they know how to spot 1399 01:16:40,200 --> 01:16:44,320 Speaker 1: a liar they are lying. Wow, Yeah, you can't. Really, 1400 01:16:45,320 --> 01:16:48,040 Speaker 1: there's no way to know. Yeah, there's no way to know, 1401 01:16:49,200 --> 01:16:54,360 Speaker 1: you know. And I feel like in all my police interactions, Um, 1402 01:16:54,400 --> 01:16:58,000 Speaker 1: and I'm saying this as someone with like I don't 1403 01:16:58,200 --> 01:17:00,160 Speaker 1: I don't think I have a criminal record. Maybe you 1404 01:17:00,160 --> 01:17:03,080 Speaker 1: know what I'm saying. But in all of the interactions 1405 01:17:03,120 --> 01:17:08,880 Speaker 1: I've had, whether it was overtly racist or very aggressive, 1406 01:17:09,160 --> 01:17:11,479 Speaker 1: or the guy was being a nice guy, or you 1407 01:17:11,560 --> 01:17:13,920 Speaker 1: just meet like like you guys playing a nice carrier, 1408 01:17:14,040 --> 01:17:18,439 Speaker 1: or you just meet like a he's just like he's 1409 01:17:18,479 --> 01:17:20,240 Speaker 1: like really a good dude that really doesn't care. He's 1410 01:17:20,280 --> 01:17:23,320 Speaker 1: just he's just doing his job. You know. I feel 1411 01:17:23,320 --> 01:17:25,880 Speaker 1: like I've had all of those you know what I'm saying, um, 1412 01:17:25,920 --> 01:17:31,800 Speaker 1: But in the ones, invariably, you know you're being sized up, 1413 01:17:32,640 --> 01:17:36,240 Speaker 1: you know, and it's like so even then like this, 1414 01:17:36,600 --> 01:17:39,400 Speaker 1: it's just it's sometimes I'm like, why are we playing 1415 01:17:39,439 --> 01:17:44,200 Speaker 1: this game right now? Like this is your you're horrible actors. 1416 01:17:44,880 --> 01:17:47,639 Speaker 1: I know what you're doing, you know what I'm saying. Like, 1417 01:17:48,120 --> 01:17:50,720 Speaker 1: and then when you when I hear you say like 1418 01:17:50,760 --> 01:17:53,960 Speaker 1: they were supposed to train train to do initial interview, 1419 01:17:54,320 --> 01:17:56,160 Speaker 1: and I know this dude is trying to build rapport 1420 01:17:56,240 --> 01:17:59,320 Speaker 1: with me, you know what I'm saying, um, And I'm like, 1421 01:17:59,439 --> 01:18:02,920 Speaker 1: I know this is okay, I know I know what 1422 01:18:03,000 --> 01:18:06,559 Speaker 1: you're doing. Like I know what you're doing. Okay, what 1423 01:18:06,720 --> 01:18:09,320 Speaker 1: time of day was it? All right, word, how tall 1424 01:18:09,479 --> 01:18:12,400 Speaker 1: was the guy? Okay? Cool? Uh? So I'm just like, 1425 01:18:12,520 --> 01:18:15,120 Speaker 1: just get to it, man, Just get to it. Let 1426 01:18:15,120 --> 01:18:16,720 Speaker 1: me tell you want to know where I was? You 1427 01:18:16,720 --> 01:18:18,920 Speaker 1: want to know where I live? Okay, Here's where I live. 1428 01:18:19,000 --> 01:18:20,600 Speaker 1: Here's what I was doing at this time. Tell me 1429 01:18:20,640 --> 01:18:22,960 Speaker 1: what time it was? I fit, what description? Can we 1430 01:18:23,000 --> 01:18:27,479 Speaker 1: just get to that rather than addists riggamo, Yeah, I'm ranting. Yea. 1431 01:18:27,720 --> 01:18:30,639 Speaker 1: So I talked earlier about how police torture to force 1432 01:18:30,640 --> 01:18:33,080 Speaker 1: confessions didn't stop. It just got settler under pressure, and 1433 01:18:33,120 --> 01:18:35,160 Speaker 1: the same is true with the impact of racism and 1434 01:18:35,200 --> 01:18:38,640 Speaker 1: law enforcement. After Jim Crow ended, the most obvious justification 1435 01:18:38,680 --> 01:18:41,840 Speaker 1: for bigoted policing was gone, but the bigotry remained as 1436 01:18:41,960 --> 01:18:45,000 Speaker 1: a system that was built almost completely during a period 1437 01:18:45,000 --> 01:18:47,599 Speaker 1: of time where either slavery black codes or Jim Crow 1438 01:18:47,680 --> 01:18:51,000 Speaker 1: laws were the rule. In Minneapolis, where black people make 1439 01:18:51,040 --> 01:18:54,000 Speaker 1: up nineteen percent of the population, they are subjected to 1440 01:18:54,200 --> 01:18:56,960 Speaker 1: fifty eight percent of use of force cases by the 1441 01:18:57,000 --> 01:19:00,920 Speaker 1: city's police. A May night two and twenty studies showed 1442 01:19:00,960 --> 01:19:03,760 Speaker 1: that out of ninety five million traffic stops nationwide between 1443 01:19:03,800 --> 01:19:05,840 Speaker 1: two thousand and eleven and two thousand and eighteen, Black 1444 01:19:05,840 --> 01:19:07,920 Speaker 1: people were vastly more likely to be pulled over than 1445 01:19:07,960 --> 01:19:11,720 Speaker 1: white people, except at night, when the gap shrinks considerably 1446 01:19:12,160 --> 01:19:14,519 Speaker 1: Black people, because again, the cops can't tell what race 1447 01:19:14,600 --> 01:19:18,040 Speaker 1: you are is easily yeah, so they're not They're not 1448 01:19:18,160 --> 01:19:24,960 Speaker 1: able to judge this is a guilty person before the interaction. Black. Yeah. 1449 01:19:25,080 --> 01:19:27,160 Speaker 1: Black people are also more likely to be searched during 1450 01:19:27,160 --> 01:19:29,080 Speaker 1: a stop, even though white people are more likely to 1451 01:19:29,160 --> 01:19:32,360 Speaker 1: actually have contraband on them. I could go on and on, 1452 01:19:32,439 --> 01:19:35,080 Speaker 1: but the basic point is the same. All of these cops, 1453 01:19:35,200 --> 01:19:38,719 Speaker 1: from Officer Dial to John Birge to current police officers 1454 01:19:38,720 --> 01:19:40,920 Speaker 1: who are today two and a half times likely to 1455 01:19:40,960 --> 01:19:43,160 Speaker 1: shoot a black man than a white one, all of 1456 01:19:43,200 --> 01:19:47,439 Speaker 1: these cops are making, at a certain level, the same decision. 1457 01:19:47,920 --> 01:19:51,360 Speaker 1: They are judging black people as guilty before they know 1458 01:19:51,479 --> 01:19:54,280 Speaker 1: anything more than their skin color. And this is persistent 1459 01:19:54,400 --> 01:19:57,839 Speaker 1: through every single level of law enforcement in our country. 1460 01:19:58,040 --> 01:20:01,120 Speaker 1: Over the decades, activists and good lawyer in Supreme court justices, 1461 01:20:01,120 --> 01:20:03,080 Speaker 1: and even a few decent cops here and there have 1462 01:20:03,240 --> 01:20:06,240 Speaker 1: worked to make forced confessions and admissible in court. They 1463 01:20:06,240 --> 01:20:08,639 Speaker 1: have worked to report and charge police for torture. They 1464 01:20:08,640 --> 01:20:10,400 Speaker 1: have worked to tear down the gym Crow laws that 1465 01:20:10,439 --> 01:20:13,519 Speaker 1: provided legal justification for a lot of police aggression, and 1466 01:20:13,600 --> 01:20:16,760 Speaker 1: yet the aggression is still there. We have learned to 1467 01:20:16,840 --> 01:20:19,040 Speaker 1: channel it and probably to make it less fatal. We've 1468 01:20:19,080 --> 01:20:21,599 Speaker 1: gotten better at punishing the most blatant expressions of it, 1469 01:20:21,760 --> 01:20:24,479 Speaker 1: but we have not stopped it. And American police today 1470 01:20:24,520 --> 01:20:26,920 Speaker 1: are still doing the same thing they have been doing 1471 01:20:26,960 --> 01:20:35,120 Speaker 1: since the eighteen hundreds. They are enforcing white supremacy through violence. Period. Yep, period. 1472 01:20:35,880 --> 01:20:39,240 Speaker 1: I'll say this in like period. I say this's like 1473 01:20:39,320 --> 01:20:44,760 Speaker 1: on a personal note. So, my little brother, you know, 1474 01:20:45,040 --> 01:20:47,320 Speaker 1: not by blood, but we just grew up together and 1475 01:20:47,320 --> 01:20:49,160 Speaker 1: I lived in our house. Whatever is just you know, 1476 01:20:49,200 --> 01:20:53,040 Speaker 1: our families work. My little brothers is a California highway patrolment, 1477 01:20:53,920 --> 01:20:58,240 Speaker 1: so confession I got law enforcement in my family. My 1478 01:20:58,320 --> 01:21:01,000 Speaker 1: brothers worked there for ten fits years. He's never pulled 1479 01:21:01,000 --> 01:21:04,240 Speaker 1: a gun ever in his life, right, never has he 1480 01:21:04,320 --> 01:21:07,000 Speaker 1: ever pulled a weapon out. He is one of those ones, 1481 01:21:07,080 --> 01:21:10,320 Speaker 1: like you said that it's like reporting dudes, that's like 1482 01:21:10,720 --> 01:21:13,920 Speaker 1: building community lass ons. He does it after school, he's living, 1483 01:21:13,920 --> 01:21:16,000 Speaker 1: he's in the valley, doesnt after school programs, runs a 1484 01:21:16,040 --> 01:21:20,600 Speaker 1: basketball league like the people know him. So like so 1485 01:21:20,600 --> 01:21:23,120 Speaker 1: so there's that my father. You know, we talked about 1486 01:21:23,160 --> 01:21:24,800 Speaker 1: my father. My father was a black panther. After he 1487 01:21:24,880 --> 01:21:27,760 Speaker 1: left the Black Panther Party because they killed it, right, 1488 01:21:28,080 --> 01:21:32,280 Speaker 1: he moved they be in the FBI. My father was 1489 01:21:32,960 --> 01:21:36,519 Speaker 1: l a county probation officer. He worked with like underage defenders. 1490 01:21:36,560 --> 01:21:40,160 Speaker 1: Retired from there, right, so worked in a special handling unit. 1491 01:21:40,200 --> 01:21:44,040 Speaker 1: He wanted to deal with the violent ist of young 1492 01:21:44,080 --> 01:21:52,000 Speaker 1: offenders thirty years thirty years never at once recommended jail time, 1493 01:21:52,840 --> 01:21:56,200 Speaker 1: never right, because of what he's talking about, the systems 1494 01:21:56,240 --> 01:21:58,840 Speaker 1: designed to destroy these young black and brown men. So 1495 01:21:58,960 --> 01:22:02,840 Speaker 1: his answer was, let me have them. I remember as 1496 01:22:02,840 --> 01:22:07,160 Speaker 1: a child, like going to King Saneras and and and 1497 01:22:07,520 --> 01:22:10,040 Speaker 1: g D g D like graduations and stuff like that. 1498 01:22:10,080 --> 01:22:11,960 Speaker 1: But all these like random kids that I didn't know. 1499 01:22:12,080 --> 01:22:15,120 Speaker 1: Turns out there were kids on his caseload because he 1500 01:22:15,280 --> 01:22:18,719 Speaker 1: was shielding them from the system. He told me stories 1501 01:22:18,720 --> 01:22:22,479 Speaker 1: of like looking at the judge telling the judge full well, 1502 01:22:23,040 --> 01:22:25,760 Speaker 1: do not send this kid to prison, do not send 1503 01:22:25,800 --> 01:22:28,360 Speaker 1: him to prison. The cops doing the same thing. The 1504 01:22:28,400 --> 01:22:32,640 Speaker 1: cops arrested this guy, showing them, showing them the transcript 1505 01:22:32,640 --> 01:22:35,240 Speaker 1: and being like this is a false confession. This kid 1506 01:22:35,320 --> 01:22:38,120 Speaker 1: is innocent. He shouldn't be on my caseload and then 1507 01:22:38,240 --> 01:22:40,559 Speaker 1: watching that food go to prison. You know what I'm saying. 1508 01:22:40,800 --> 01:22:44,360 Speaker 1: So when you, when you, when you even in us 1509 01:22:44,360 --> 01:22:46,679 Speaker 1: bring all those things up to say this is that 1510 01:22:48,000 --> 01:22:52,920 Speaker 1: even if you find good men and good women, the 1511 01:22:53,280 --> 01:22:56,640 Speaker 1: system is flawed. And this is what we're trying to 1512 01:22:56,680 --> 01:23:02,720 Speaker 1: get to. The structure is wrong. Yes, the the these 1513 01:23:02,760 --> 01:23:05,759 Speaker 1: statement all cops are bastards, I think has been traditional, 1514 01:23:05,840 --> 01:23:08,519 Speaker 1: like historically kind of unproductive in terms of actually getting 1515 01:23:08,560 --> 01:23:12,240 Speaker 1: people to to u confront the real issues of of 1516 01:23:12,240 --> 01:23:15,559 Speaker 1: of law enforcement. But what people mean by it is 1517 01:23:15,560 --> 01:23:18,519 Speaker 1: actually very accurate, which is that it is it is 1518 01:23:18,600 --> 01:23:22,960 Speaker 1: impossible to be like, even if you are a good person, 1519 01:23:23,280 --> 01:23:26,120 Speaker 1: a nice person who is a police officer and is 1520 01:23:26,240 --> 01:23:28,960 Speaker 1: legitimately aware of the problems and policing and trying to 1521 01:23:29,000 --> 01:23:32,120 Speaker 1: do your best, you are also partaking and helping to 1522 01:23:32,320 --> 01:23:36,880 Speaker 1: con and helping to maintain and further a system that 1523 01:23:37,040 --> 01:23:41,759 Speaker 1: is fundamentally abusive and enforces very supremacy and a period 1524 01:23:42,000 --> 01:23:43,920 Speaker 1: we are not what what we're not saying is that 1525 01:23:44,080 --> 01:23:47,439 Speaker 1: all cops should never have a job in that that 1526 01:23:47,439 --> 01:23:52,519 Speaker 1: that like there's there's homicide detectives who are good solving murders. 1527 01:23:52,800 --> 01:23:55,200 Speaker 1: When we get rid of the police and replace them 1528 01:23:55,240 --> 01:23:57,160 Speaker 1: with something, I want those people to still be solving 1529 01:23:57,240 --> 01:24:01,840 Speaker 1: murders because it's good. Yeah, yes, um, you know there are. 1530 01:24:01,960 --> 01:24:04,360 Speaker 1: If you know a a police officer who is a 1531 01:24:04,400 --> 01:24:07,320 Speaker 1: great person and is is an asset to the community, 1532 01:24:07,640 --> 01:24:10,400 Speaker 1: that person should probably still be doing a broadly similar 1533 01:24:10,840 --> 01:24:13,040 Speaker 1: a lot of the same things they're doing. But there 1534 01:24:13,040 --> 01:24:15,720 Speaker 1: shouldn't be I talked to cops a lot. I've talked 1535 01:24:15,720 --> 01:24:18,240 Speaker 1: to a lot of cops will talk about like being 1536 01:24:18,280 --> 01:24:21,200 Speaker 1: forced to arrest people for simple possession of drugs even 1537 01:24:21,200 --> 01:24:25,240 Speaker 1: though they personally agree with ending the drug war, and like, 1538 01:24:25,600 --> 01:24:28,840 Speaker 1: that's the problem that you're forced to do it, and 1539 01:24:28,880 --> 01:24:31,599 Speaker 1: that's the we don't We We decided as a as 1540 01:24:31,600 --> 01:24:35,480 Speaker 1: a species that just following orders is not a justification 1541 01:24:35,520 --> 01:24:39,000 Speaker 1: for violating people's civil rights. Yes, think about when we 1542 01:24:39,040 --> 01:24:42,920 Speaker 1: decided that and why, yes, and where it led and 1543 01:24:42,960 --> 01:24:46,120 Speaker 1: where it started. Yeah, yes, you are hearing the cries 1544 01:24:46,160 --> 01:24:48,840 Speaker 1: of both my father and my brother who both were like, 1545 01:24:48,960 --> 01:24:50,519 Speaker 1: I don't know if I could do this much longer. 1546 01:24:51,560 --> 01:24:54,920 Speaker 1: Even in me trying right, I'm trying to do the 1547 01:24:55,000 --> 01:24:56,800 Speaker 1: right thing. I'm trying to be an advocate for these 1548 01:24:56,840 --> 01:24:59,280 Speaker 1: young people, like I'm doing my best, Like at least 1549 01:24:59,280 --> 01:25:01,280 Speaker 1: they got some by you on the side, you know 1550 01:25:01,320 --> 01:25:03,760 Speaker 1: what I'm saying, And you're but you're still like I'm 1551 01:25:03,800 --> 01:25:07,040 Speaker 1: still I'm still throwing you to the wolves. I'm just 1552 01:25:07,200 --> 01:25:11,120 Speaker 1: giving you, you know, a protective jacket. But the point 1553 01:25:11,240 --> 01:25:14,000 Speaker 1: is I'm still throwing you to the wolves. Because this 1554 01:25:14,439 --> 01:25:17,760 Speaker 1: it's the the whole like it's what you're trying to say, 1555 01:25:17,800 --> 01:25:22,160 Speaker 1: It's like the whole thing needs a grenade. Because again, 1556 01:25:22,200 --> 01:25:24,240 Speaker 1: like you said, I want to be able to call 1557 01:25:24,360 --> 01:25:28,559 Speaker 1: somebody if my house is being broken into, of course 1558 01:25:28,600 --> 01:25:31,000 Speaker 1: I want to be able to call somebody, But most 1559 01:25:31,080 --> 01:25:34,479 Speaker 1: likely who's breaking into my house is a meth head 1560 01:25:34,880 --> 01:25:37,400 Speaker 1: just trying to steal the PS four because he wants 1561 01:25:37,400 --> 01:25:40,960 Speaker 1: a hit. Don't kill the guy, like just I just 1562 01:25:41,000 --> 01:25:42,800 Speaker 1: want him out my house. And you know what, I 1563 01:25:42,840 --> 01:25:44,720 Speaker 1: could probably you know what, I probably won't call him 1564 01:25:44,720 --> 01:25:47,080 Speaker 1: because I could get him by my house because he's hot. 1565 01:25:47,600 --> 01:25:50,680 Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying. Yeah, it's it's this I mean. 1566 01:25:50,720 --> 01:25:52,760 Speaker 1: And again, when you actually we'll talk about this some 1567 01:25:52,920 --> 01:25:55,440 Speaker 1: next week. But when you look at, for example, homelessness, 1568 01:25:55,439 --> 01:25:58,280 Speaker 1: you find out that cost the state less money to 1569 01:25:58,400 --> 01:26:01,600 Speaker 1: give homeless people homes, then it costs to police and 1570 01:26:01,640 --> 01:26:05,639 Speaker 1: incarceraate them. It costs less money to give drug addicts 1571 01:26:05,720 --> 01:26:09,200 Speaker 1: drugs than to police them and to deal with the 1572 01:26:09,240 --> 01:26:11,519 Speaker 1: results of them stealing ship for drugs they found out 1573 01:26:11,520 --> 01:26:14,000 Speaker 1: on like Denmark where they give heroin addicts heroin and 1574 01:26:14,040 --> 01:26:17,519 Speaker 1: it saves them huge amounts of money Toronto to Yeah, 1575 01:26:17,880 --> 01:26:20,800 Speaker 1: like safe injection zones, you don't have to police this ship. 1576 01:26:20,880 --> 01:26:23,840 Speaker 1: And in fact, most things shouldn't be policed. Maybe only 1577 01:26:24,000 --> 01:26:27,880 Speaker 1: violence should be policed exactly. If you're like I try 1578 01:26:27,920 --> 01:26:29,720 Speaker 1: to like as as simple as we can make it. 1579 01:26:29,880 --> 01:26:32,400 Speaker 1: If my daughter comes in and she don't do her 1580 01:26:32,479 --> 01:26:35,760 Speaker 1: chores because she's got a cold, and I ground her, 1581 01:26:37,080 --> 01:26:41,720 Speaker 1: rather than say here's some tail and all, like you 1582 01:26:41,720 --> 01:26:43,760 Speaker 1: would be like, that's ridiculous. You've had a ground her 1583 01:26:43,760 --> 01:26:46,599 Speaker 1: because she got a cold. That's stupid. Okay, that's putting 1584 01:26:46,640 --> 01:26:49,240 Speaker 1: an addict in prison. You know what I'm saying. It's like, 1585 01:26:50,800 --> 01:26:52,200 Speaker 1: this is what did do you? What do you? What 1586 01:26:52,240 --> 01:26:57,719 Speaker 1: are you grounding? That doesn't make sense. We're ranting, Yeah, 1587 01:26:57,840 --> 01:27:00,960 Speaker 1: we're ranting, and um it's it's time for some plug 1588 01:27:01,040 --> 01:27:06,720 Speaker 1: doubles to get plugged. Yes word. Uh all My instagrams 1589 01:27:06,720 --> 01:27:08,960 Speaker 1: and socials are prop hit pop. Go to prop hit 1590 01:27:08,960 --> 01:27:13,040 Speaker 1: pop dot com for poetry, rap, for some podcasts, for 1591 01:27:13,200 --> 01:27:17,680 Speaker 1: some sustainable merch, some cups, some coffee if you want to, 1592 01:27:17,760 --> 01:27:20,439 Speaker 1: you want to support non corporate coffee. I'm a coffee head. 1593 01:27:21,080 --> 01:27:23,599 Speaker 1: Hit me up. Let's talk about like Jeff tweetye and 1594 01:27:24,040 --> 01:27:28,559 Speaker 1: cigarettos because I am the most unicorny black dude you'd 1595 01:27:28,560 --> 01:27:31,680 Speaker 1: ever meet that I can talk to you about cigarettes 1596 01:27:33,040 --> 01:27:37,360 Speaker 1: and I am. I'm gonna keep reading and writing about 1597 01:27:37,360 --> 01:27:40,479 Speaker 1: police for another week or so. Um then, um, I 1598 01:27:40,479 --> 01:27:43,200 Speaker 1: don't know. We'll talk about Bill Cooper or something at 1599 01:27:43,240 --> 01:27:46,160 Speaker 1: some point. Yeah, we have you all for some like 1600 01:27:46,240 --> 01:27:49,519 Speaker 1: for something like like a like a dictator. Yeah yeah, yeah, 1601 01:27:50,040 --> 01:27:54,960 Speaker 1: talk about somebody, somebody fun, you know, well, somebody not 1602 01:27:55,200 --> 01:27:58,160 Speaker 1: connected to my own safety. And yeah, well we'll do 1603 01:27:58,240 --> 01:28:01,839 Speaker 1: We'll talk about chairman now or somebody here. Yeah, everybody 1604 01:28:01,880 --> 01:28:04,240 Speaker 1: loves a good chairman mouse story, Oh my dad, or 1605 01:28:04,320 --> 01:28:09,720 Speaker 1: maybe Tito Tito. Yeah, Tito was cool as hell. I 1606 01:28:09,720 --> 01:28:11,559 Speaker 1: mean he was a monster, but he was a cool monster. 1607 01:28:11,920 --> 01:28:15,360 Speaker 1: Still talking about bastards, but the point is, yeah, yeah, 1608 01:28:15,439 --> 01:28:18,840 Speaker 1: well we'll do something more lighthearted, but um, you can 1609 01:28:18,840 --> 01:28:20,960 Speaker 1: find us online it behind the Bastards dot com, where 1610 01:28:20,960 --> 01:28:24,200 Speaker 1: there will be sources for this episode, including the really 1611 01:28:24,240 --> 01:28:27,519 Speaker 1: important book The Color of the Third Degree, um, and 1612 01:28:27,600 --> 01:28:30,400 Speaker 1: all the other really important book The End of Policing, 1613 01:28:30,520 --> 01:28:34,080 Speaker 1: both of which are important, if not easy reading. Well, actually, 1614 01:28:34,080 --> 01:28:35,920 Speaker 1: the end up policing is very easy reading. The Color 1615 01:28:35,960 --> 01:28:40,400 Speaker 1: of the Third Degree is some rough ship. Um. Yeah, 1616 01:28:40,439 --> 01:28:43,240 Speaker 1: and you can find me on Twitter at I right, okay, 1617 01:28:43,439 --> 01:28:50,360 Speaker 1: and go be a good person and disband um the 1618 01:28:50,400 --> 01:28:53,600 Speaker 1: American system of policing. Um, I'll do do both of 1619 01:28:53,600 --> 01:29:02,120 Speaker 1: those things ideally, Amen, shall we collect? Offering? Behind the 1620 01:29:02,160 --> 01:29:04,439 Speaker 1: Police is a production of I Heart Radio. For more 1621 01:29:04,479 --> 01:29:07,360 Speaker 1: podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, 1622 01:29:07,520 --> 01:29:10,840 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.