1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,119 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:24,759 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hello, and 5 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:27,480 Speaker 1: welcome back to the show. My name is Matt noel 6 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:32,519 Speaker 1: is Where is he on a knull somewhere? Perhaps a 7 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:35,480 Speaker 1: grassy one? Yes, they call me Ben. We are joined 8 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:38,920 Speaker 1: as always with our super producer Paul Mission controlled decond 9 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:42,520 Speaker 1: Most importantly, you are you. You are here and that 10 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 1: makes this stuff they don't want you to know? Matt. 11 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:51,200 Speaker 1: How's it going? It's going? Well? I'm wondering what you 12 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 1: are doing out there right now as you're listening to this. 13 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 1: Are you driving? Are you walking? Are you sitting at 14 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 1: your desk if you are able to? If you look 15 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:04,559 Speaker 1: around right now, is anybody paying attention to what you're doing? 16 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 1: Did somebody just dart their head down as you glanced 17 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 1: at them? Is someone on a phone but not appearing 18 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:14,919 Speaker 1: to speak into that phone? Are they making eye contact 19 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 1: in with you or looking in your direction while they're 20 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:21,200 Speaker 1: on the phone. Uh? Do you think that they're actually 21 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:24,399 Speaker 1: using the phone? Do you think they're actually calling? One? Eight? 22 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 1: Three three st d w y t K. Well, you know, 23 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 1: we have a lot of We have a lot of 24 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:37,680 Speaker 1: hang ups as a species, right, and many of those 25 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 1: are the inevitable results of our great intelligence or the 26 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 1: problem of consciousness and and sentience or consciousness sapience, whatever 27 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 1: you want to call it is its own bag of badgers. 28 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 1: But our our fears drive so much of our you know, 29 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: our failings and our triumphs, our innovations, even our music. 30 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:05,640 Speaker 1: You and I were talking off air with Mission Control 31 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:11,520 Speaker 1: about various songs that are catchy but strongly paranoid. You know, 32 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 1: should we sure? Do you always feel like someone is 33 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:22,800 Speaker 1: watching you? Do you feel like private eyes are watching you? 34 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:27,400 Speaker 1: So they see here every move? What I thought you 35 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 1: were gonna say? Poop again? Oh? Yeah, no, we worked 36 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 1: on an alternate version of that song. Yes, today's Today's 37 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:41,080 Speaker 1: episode is about a troubling um, a troubling feeling phenomenon 38 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 1: that everyone has experience to some degree at one point 39 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:49,799 Speaker 1: or another. And this this is the feeling of being watched, 40 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 1: feeling being stalked. And if you were one of the 41 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 1: lucky few who are thinking, oh gee, man, I've I've 42 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 1: never personally felt like someone was following me or stalking 43 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 1: me and then strap in because you're going to feel 44 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:05,640 Speaker 1: that way after this episode, so I will I will 45 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:08,080 Speaker 1: give a when I don't talk too much about the 46 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 1: personal stuff, but I will give a personal example of 47 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 1: when I was actually followed or stalked. This was when 48 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 1: I was living in a different country and I was 49 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:31,920 Speaker 1: interacting with some political activists. Let's let's keep it at that, okay. 50 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 1: And I was not in any way a lynchpin of 51 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 1: this organization, nor was I involved in any criminal enterprise. 52 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 1: I'm very much Dudley do good when I am in 53 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 1: someone else's geopolitical house, and it's the best policy. But 54 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 1: I noticed a few you know, a few weeks after 55 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 1: I had met with met with a group. I was 56 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 1: a fairly I had a fairly predictable routine. So I 57 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 1: was always sleeping more or less in the same place, 58 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:16,480 Speaker 1: and I was typically going to do things in more 59 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:21,039 Speaker 1: or less the same area, often predictable times of day, 60 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:24,159 Speaker 1: which any p I can tell you is not the 61 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 1: best strategy. Private investigator, right right, thank you. And I 62 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 1: started noticing. I started noticing the same people at the 63 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:44,839 Speaker 1: same time, and eventually, eventually somebody very politely make contact 64 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 1: with me and asked me some questions about the folks 65 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 1: I met a week or two ago, and nothing ever 66 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:56,559 Speaker 1: came of it. And I you know, the story ends there. 67 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:01,839 Speaker 1: But you're fairly sure you were being surveilled or stalked uncertain. Yeah, 68 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 1: and it wasn't. It wasn't in a threatening way. I think. 69 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 1: I think these folks just wanted to see what I 70 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 1: was going to do next. What I mean, is this 71 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 1: just hanging out? These just some friends hanging out in 72 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:21,720 Speaker 1: a coffee shop or a wine bar, or is this 73 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 1: a public meeting that leads to something else? And that's 74 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:29,279 Speaker 1: not I have to also be very clear, it is 75 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 1: not illegal for intelligence agencies or law enforcement to do that. 76 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:37,159 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact. Uh, at least on paper. 77 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:41,840 Speaker 1: The US has some laws that are meant to constrain 78 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 1: the unchecked use of those powers. Other countries do not, 79 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 1: and uh, and as often to the peril of many 80 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 1: unfortunate people. But let's let's go away. That's a little scary, 81 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 1: but it all all's well, that ends well, you know, uh, 82 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 1: here are the facts. Have you ever been followed, like 83 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 1: we said, you know, we've all we we've all experienced 84 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: if you if you are savvy enough to be listening 85 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 1: to a podcast, you have experienced some sort of how 86 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:20,119 Speaker 1: would you describe it, man, a sense of surveillance. Yeah. Sure, Again, 87 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 1: it doesn't even necessarily mean that it's true, but the 88 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 1: perception that something like that perhaps is going on you 89 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 1: you maybe have felt it before. We certainly you and 90 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:33,840 Speaker 1: I I think in particular maybe as well as know 91 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 1: a little bit to a lesser effect, have experience kind 92 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 1: of a fluctuating feeling of being surveilled over the ten years, 93 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 1: the decade of making this show where that it waxes 94 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 1: and Waynes. We even had a joke and a say 95 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 1: intern there that we've mentioned several times in the past, 96 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:55,280 Speaker 1: shout out to Steve whose tasks with listening to our 97 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:57,840 Speaker 1: episodes and all the ideas that we put forth into 98 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:02,880 Speaker 1: the universe. Um, honestly, they're they're worried about, you know, 99 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 1: the next season of Ricking Morty, like what's going to 100 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 1: come on there? Like because you getting influenced, like what 101 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:10,120 Speaker 1: are we gonna do? Right right? Let's sie up is this? 102 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 1: And also shout out to you, Steve, if you have 103 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 1: not graduated yet, if you are still an intern at 104 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 1: one of the spooky alphabet agencies, then it can only 105 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 1: mean you're pursuing a PhD and good luck. That's right. 106 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 1: But but again, to our knowledge, we have never really 107 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 1: experienced overt surveillance on this show, at least for making 108 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 1: this show. Um again, we don't. We don't have knowledge 109 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 1: of it at least, and we certainly haven't encountered what 110 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 1: would be considered a stalker. Now. We have received a 111 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 1: number of cryptic and or troubling emails, a couple of 112 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 1: texts on mobile phones, things like that. I have a 113 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 1: few pieces of physical paper in my desk that I've 114 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 1: kept around that we're a bit odd with the symbols 115 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 1: and everything that was on their mapping connections to things 116 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 1: that I didn't understand. Yes, yeah, we've received some odd 117 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 1: post too, But we haven't encountered what would be described 118 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 1: legally as a stalker or stalking situation, which can happen. 119 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 1: It's a real thing. The Department of Justice defines stalking 120 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 1: as engaging in a course of conduct directed at a 121 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:34,839 Speaker 1: specific person that would cause a reasonable person to fear 122 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: for his or her safety or the safety of others, 123 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 1: or suffer substantial emotional distress. And we have some statistics 124 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 1: about this too. Oh sure. If you look to the 125 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 1: c d C, they've got a thing called Prevalence and 126 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 1: Characteristics of Sexual Violence, stalking and Intimate Partner Violence Victimization. 127 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:59,840 Speaker 1: This is a National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey 128 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 1: within the United States eleven. Okay, that's a lot to 129 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 1: get through there. It's through the c d C. That's 130 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 1: what you need to know, and it's a survey um 131 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:09,679 Speaker 1: and this whole thing is commonly referred to as the 132 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:13,960 Speaker 1: n I s VS. According to this thing, seven and 133 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 1: a half million people were stalked in one year alone 134 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:19,199 Speaker 1: in the United States. And of course this is the 135 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:23,560 Speaker 1: eleven survey, so this is data from now. A lot 136 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 1: of these victims were stalked by either a current or 137 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 1: a former intimate partner. That would be of female victims 138 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:34,680 Speaker 1: and fort of male victims. And if you look to 139 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 1: the population overall, an estimated fifteen percent of women and 140 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 1: six percent of men have been a victim of stalking 141 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 1: throughout their entire lifetimes, which you know is statistically fairly low. 142 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:51,320 Speaker 1: But when you think about that number of people, seven 143 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 1: and a half million human beings that experienced stalking in 144 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 1: a single year, it's pretty staggering in the US alone. Yeah, 145 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:01,360 Speaker 1: and when we say stall can, we're not talking about 146 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 1: you know, creeps on the Internet sliding into your d 147 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:07,719 Speaker 1: m s. We're talking about the sort of stalking that 148 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 1: is defined by the d o J. For a lot 149 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 1: of US. These numbers seem surprisingly high, you know what 150 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 1: I mean? This is like cape fear, single white female 151 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 1: kind of thriller stuff. But critics of this survey believe 152 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:30,079 Speaker 1: the CDC has used an overly conservative definition of stalking, 153 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 1: and honestly, I tend to agree with some of the 154 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:38,319 Speaker 1: problems here. Survey respondents were classified as stalking victims if 155 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:42,680 Speaker 1: and only if one they experienced multiple stalking tactics or 156 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:46,960 Speaker 1: a single stalking tactic multiple times by the same perpetrator 157 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 1: a part makes sense, or two they felt very fearful 158 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 1: or believed that they or someone close to them would 159 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 1: be harmed or killed as a result of the perpetrators 160 00:10:56,600 --> 00:11:00,840 Speaker 1: stalking behavior, and this comes from the Stalking Source Center. 161 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:05,080 Speaker 1: They say this definition fails to address the varying levels 162 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 1: of fear reported by victims right somewhat fearful, maybe distressed, disquietant, 163 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:16,080 Speaker 1: or slightly fearful, and no stalking law in the US, 164 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 1: which goes the stalking laws pretty much goes state by 165 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 1: state unless you're talking about interstate stalking. Uh. These these 166 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:26,680 Speaker 1: stocking laws, uh don't qualify fear the way that the 167 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 1: c d C is. And so they say that using 168 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 1: this conservative definition of stalking results in an inaccurate depiction 169 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 1: of the practice. But wait, as Billy mayors want to say, 170 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 1: there's more, folks, you see, we have, uh, we have, 171 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 1: we have piles of disturbing facts and statistics about this phenomenon, 172 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:51,560 Speaker 1: this type of crime according to the Bureau of Justice 173 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 1: statistics during a twelvemonth period. You'll notice these statistics don't 174 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:00,120 Speaker 1: all agree during a twelve month period and estimate to 175 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 1: fourteen out of every one thousand people age eighteen or 176 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:09,439 Speaker 1: older or victims of stalking somehow, and again the definition changes. Right, 177 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:14,440 Speaker 1: But let's keep in mind these are different organizations of 178 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 1: the same government, and you can only use surveys, right, So, 179 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 1: depending depending on who you're surveying, even as random as 180 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:27,199 Speaker 1: you want it to be, you may get very different statistics, right. Right, 181 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:31,560 Speaker 1: So it's true because we have to ask ourselves about 182 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 1: the methodology. One surveying may just be going off self reporting, right, 183 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 1: one survey may be going off only reports that have 184 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:44,320 Speaker 1: been made to law enforcement, and as we know, quite 185 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 1: a few people do not report things like that to 186 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 1: to law enforcement unless unless it exceeds a certain threshold, 187 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:58,320 Speaker 1: like most people are not calling nine one one every 188 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 1: time they get an unseld lisited again, an unsolicited maybe 189 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 1: message on Instagram or something you know sure or you know, 190 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 1: a robo call, or consistent robot calls from the same 191 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 1: number or something. About half of stalking victims around forty 192 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 1: said they experienced at least one unwanted contact per week. 193 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 1: Eleven percent of victims said they've been stalked for a 194 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:29,360 Speaker 1: long time five years or more. The risk of being 195 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:32,200 Speaker 1: a victim of stalking was highest for individuals who were 196 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 1: divorced or separated. That's thirty four out of one thousand individuals. 197 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:39,559 Speaker 1: Women were at a greater risk than men for being 198 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 1: for stalking victimization. However, women and men were equally likely 199 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:50,560 Speaker 1: to experience harassment. Nearly three and four stalking victims knew 200 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 1: their offender in some way. That person you can go 201 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:58,640 Speaker 1: to school with, who's kind of quiet and ex significant other, 202 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:01,320 Speaker 1: even if it's just an neighbor, even if it's just 203 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:04,960 Speaker 1: a neighbor, just a face, wom in some way. So, 204 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:10,719 Speaker 1: you know, when we see these crimes or these situations 205 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 1: depicted in works of fiction, people go to the police, 206 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 1: and predictably, especially if it's a thriller, the police ignore them. 207 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 1: Our hands are tied. They say, we could get a 208 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 1: restraining order. That's the extent of it. Now, that's you know, 209 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 1: oversimplified for the sake of plot and narrative. But it 210 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:35,280 Speaker 1: is unfortunately true that not all states treat stalking the 211 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 1: same way. Yeah, currently just over half of states. They 212 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 1: will require that there are at least two or more instances. 213 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 1: Were kind of talked about this a little bit, but 214 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:51,160 Speaker 1: there have to be at least two instances where this perpetrator, 215 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 1: whoever the person is that's perceived as a stalker, is 216 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 1: either following, harassing, watching in some way. The person who's 217 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 1: who is the victim. Right, But then some state laws 218 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 1: actually you specify the victim has to be frightened by 219 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 1: the stalking. Like there again we're talking about fear here. 220 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:12,120 Speaker 1: It's kind of what we mentioned earlier, Like if if 221 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:14,800 Speaker 1: you were walking into a police department to make a 222 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 1: report and you are not fearful of this stalking is 223 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 1: just a nuisance perhaps or something like that, then uh, 224 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 1: it wouldn't necessarily be considered stalking. Um. Some others require 225 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 1: that the stalking behavior must have caused a reasonable person 226 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 1: to experience fear. Um. But again a lot of these 227 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 1: states vary on what fear is, like what what are 228 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 1: we defining fear as? Is it somewhat fearful, quite fearful, 229 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 1: very fearful? And some state laws even require you know, 230 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 1: a prosecutor if they were gonna take somebody to court 231 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 1: and charge them with stalking, they would require the prosecutor 232 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 1: to establish that fear of death or at least some 233 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:01,120 Speaker 1: kind of you know, serious harm was at least felt 234 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 1: by the victim um. And you know, others just required 235 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 1: that a prosecure established the victim suffered some kind of 236 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 1: emotional distress. And that is generally going to be experienced 237 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 1: by anyone who feels at least that they are the 238 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 1: victim of stalking. And we'll get back to a problematic, 239 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:27,280 Speaker 1: challenging issue with that definition. But but first we've painted 240 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 1: the scene right the broad context, being stalked in North 241 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:35,160 Speaker 1: Dakota is not the same as being stalked in California 242 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 1: or Oklahoma. Right, we know that stalking israel. We know 243 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 1: that it is by itself a frightening phenomenon for the 244 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 1: people involved. Yet over the course of recent years, more 245 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 1: and more individuals are coming forward, often forming communities online, 246 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 1: claiming that they have been harassed, stalked, terrorized, not by 247 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 1: an ex lover, not by a single creepy obsessed neighbor 248 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 1: or former school chum, but by groups of people, coordinated groups, 249 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:14,399 Speaker 1: acting in concerts and behaving as though they have a plan, 250 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 1: a gang of stalkers. So today's question is what exactly 251 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 1: is going on? And we'll get to that right after 252 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 1: a quick word from our sponsor. Here's where it gets crazy. 253 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 1: Gang stalking. Gang stalking. This is something many of our 254 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:45,679 Speaker 1: fellow listeners have written in to us about over the years, 255 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:50,160 Speaker 1: and I do mean years. As we've established earlier, stalking 256 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:53,240 Speaker 1: has a few common characteristics. Tends to be highly personal 257 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:57,879 Speaker 1: and individualized. Tends to be measured at least partially in 258 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 1: subjective emotional terms, at least as far as the letter 259 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 1: of the law applies in the US, and that's a 260 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 1: tricky thing. We cannot objectively measure a subjective experience, especially 261 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:16,919 Speaker 1: because we know that emotions are malleable and to a 262 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 1: degree in ephemeral. Often right things we feel different ways 263 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:25,880 Speaker 1: about the same thing at different times, which sounds elementary 264 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:29,879 Speaker 1: but is incredibly important for this. It reminds me of 265 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 1: you know, how the Sackler family and other criminals of 266 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 1: that ILK had put in you know, it's spent. You 267 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 1: just phrased it that way. It's true, sorry, criminals who 268 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:47,959 Speaker 1: are not going to be convicted, right, Uh, drug dealers, 269 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 1: I don't know what you want me to say. No, No, 270 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 1: it's refreshing to hear it. Well, those are unfortunately true things. 271 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:03,920 Speaker 1: But but the the is, like these organizations, the opioid mongers, 272 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 1: had spent millions making a standardized pain reporting scale that 273 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 1: medical professionals were more or less forced to use. And 274 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:18,360 Speaker 1: we've all we've all kind of heard it before. Describe 275 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:20,920 Speaker 1: your pain on a scale of one to ten, right, 276 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:25,199 Speaker 1: it's basically comfort or yeah, y yeah, yeah yeah. And 277 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 1: so we're asking we're asking people to subjectively rate something. 278 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:37,440 Speaker 1: So if we're asking people to subjectively rate their fear 279 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:42,639 Speaker 1: after something incredibly frightening has happened to them, you know 280 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:46,639 Speaker 1: what I mean? Like, I I just got an envelope 281 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 1: full of like hair and a picture of my kid 282 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:53,360 Speaker 1: at the playground. Uh oh, do you think I'm somewhat 283 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:56,720 Speaker 1: discomfited by this? You know it's insane? Well, it is. 284 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:02,800 Speaker 1: I mean, when you're speaking of perceived stalking, as we're 285 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 1: going to find a little later in the episode, it 286 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 1: ranges from a glance from somebody that perhaps you don't know. Two. Um, 287 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 1: I mean, I can be I can only imagine the 288 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:19,359 Speaker 1: nth degree. There would be someone holding a weapon to 289 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:22,480 Speaker 1: to your body and you know, threatening you like that. 290 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 1: That would be the range I'm assuming if you're talking 291 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:30,160 Speaker 1: about levels of fear within stalking, right, Yeah, Yeah, that's 292 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 1: that's the problem with that definition, because different people will 293 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:38,480 Speaker 1: have different thresholds, right, what they consider frightening. And this 294 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 1: is not at all in any way shape, form or 295 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 1: fashion meant to diminish or minimize the experiences of people 296 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:49,719 Speaker 1: who are victimized by stalking. We're saying that some people 297 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:53,280 Speaker 1: will behave differently, and there's not really a one size 298 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:57,640 Speaker 1: fits all form. Yes, some people behave and perceive differently. Yeah, 299 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 1: there we go. That's incredibly important. So here's the strange 300 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:06,840 Speaker 1: part for people who believe that they're victims of group 301 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:11,200 Speaker 1: stalking or gang stalking. The same rules apply, but with 302 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:15,119 Speaker 1: but not in the same way, and with even higher stakes, 303 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:19,960 Speaker 1: like they may feel there's a highly personal, individualized motive 304 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:23,400 Speaker 1: behind this group of people stalking them, but they may 305 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:27,120 Speaker 1: not have known these people before. It's just the guy 306 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:29,920 Speaker 1: who's always now at the bus stop around the same 307 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 1: time as you. And because the definitions of the term 308 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:38,400 Speaker 1: gang stalking can be a little tough to come by, 309 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:44,959 Speaker 1: we we found some pretty pretty comprehensive definitions from the 310 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 1: subredit on gang stalking. And there is a dedicated subredit 311 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:53,400 Speaker 1: to this and I I like their definition. I think 312 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:55,639 Speaker 1: it gives us a good lay of the lands. It 313 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 1: says that gang stalking is an umbrella term and it 314 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:02,199 Speaker 1: describes a series of technique utilized by a group to 315 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:05,399 Speaker 1: instill mental instability within a victim. So that would be 316 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:11,440 Speaker 1: a particular individual with the intent to discredit, sabotage, harass, extort, 317 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:15,400 Speaker 1: and even drive a victim to suicide or at least 318 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:17,639 Speaker 1: to mental distress. And it goes on to say the 319 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:21,680 Speaker 1: victims of this practice are often described as targeted individuals 320 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:25,760 Speaker 1: known as t s for short. So we will relation 321 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 1: to the artists correct, and we will be using t 322 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:33,800 Speaker 1: I sometimes targeted individuals moving forward. Yeah, and according to 323 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:37,919 Speaker 1: the ties who feel that they are victims of gang 324 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:45,560 Speaker 1: stalking operations, the stalking can take multiple forms. Right. Oh yeah, Well, 325 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:50,639 Speaker 1: there are lots of different perceived things here that have 326 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 1: been described by multiple people. So this isn't just one 327 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 1: person's account of what it's like to be gang stocked 328 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:02,680 Speaker 1: or the option of what is occurring. So let's get 329 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:06,480 Speaker 1: to something called mobbing. Let's let's hit that first. So 330 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 1: this is an intense and organized harassment, sometimes in the workplace, 331 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:16,640 Speaker 1: but mobbing can also occur outside of the workplace, where 332 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:20,679 Speaker 1: it's just a whole bunch of people that appear to 333 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:25,880 Speaker 1: be around you or paying attention to you or watching 334 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 1: you all at once. Like again, if you just if 335 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:33,439 Speaker 1: you imagine the concept of mobbing, it's a lot of 336 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:36,480 Speaker 1: people all at once with their attention focused on you. 337 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 1: But then but then their attention will go away and 338 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 1: they will come right back to you. Yeah, and then 339 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 1: there are black bag jobs, which would be a residential 340 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:53,040 Speaker 1: break in where maybe something is stolen or something's messed with, 341 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:57,240 Speaker 1: but your house is not Valuables aren't necessarily taken. It's 342 00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:00,920 Speaker 1: not like a burglary. It's a for me, my understanding 343 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:04,160 Speaker 1: it was. It's a perception that your inner sanctum, your 344 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 1: your place of safety has been disheveled or messed with 345 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:12,960 Speaker 1: or looked at by somebody who physically, you know, breached 346 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:16,920 Speaker 1: the perimeter or whatever. And maybe they altered something, or 347 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:20,360 Speaker 1: maybe they installed something to monitor you. And generally it's 348 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,359 Speaker 1: to mess with your right, I mean, that's the perception, 349 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:25,480 Speaker 1: is that somebody broken here just to mess with me, 350 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:29,640 Speaker 1: not like you said, not to take something of any value. Right, 351 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:33,160 Speaker 1: maybe in some cases to leave something. Uh. The idea 352 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 1: is that the the idea here in both those cases 353 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:42,720 Speaker 1: is that someone is attempting to compromise the victim's sanity 354 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 1: or the perception of reality. This term is come. We 355 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:50,800 Speaker 1: commonly encapsulate this in the term gas lighting. Right, So, 356 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 1: gas lighting is when someone attempts some person or some 357 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 1: group attempts to convince some other person or some other 358 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 1: group that they are in fact mentally unstable, they're losing 359 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:07,160 Speaker 1: their mind, and so on. It comes from a play 360 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 1: called Gaslight. In the US, it's known as Angel Street, 361 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:17,320 Speaker 1: and it's about a woman whose husband slowly manipulates her 362 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:22,200 Speaker 1: or gaslights her into thinking that she is losing her mind. 363 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:27,240 Speaker 1: There are other things like a street theater. Yeah, now 364 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 1: this is this is one that you can find videos 365 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:32,600 Speaker 1: of online in a in a lot of places in 366 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:37,879 Speaker 1: YouTube where it will be um a group of people 367 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:41,800 Speaker 1: that if you're watching objectively, it feels as though it's 368 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 1: just normal activity out on a street, particularly or it 369 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:47,720 Speaker 1: doesn't have to be a street, it can be just 370 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:53,119 Speaker 1: in any public space. And you know, but for the 371 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:57,840 Speaker 1: person who believes they're being gang stocked, everything feels inauthentic. 372 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:02,119 Speaker 1: It feels like it's it's a bunch of theater people, 373 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:05,719 Speaker 1: theater kids putting on a play. It like it's organized 374 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:10,879 Speaker 1: in some way for specifically the purpose to agitate the 375 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 1: person who's perceiving it as being as stalking. Right, And 376 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:22,280 Speaker 1: this this goes into the concept of some performance art. 377 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 1: Some of us listening might say, well, what about things 378 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,640 Speaker 1: like improv everywhere? Have you seen those clips? Yeah, it's 379 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:33,480 Speaker 1: like people spontaneously freeze for sixty seconds and train station 380 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,520 Speaker 1: or everybody starts in a flash mob dancing and stuff. 381 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:40,920 Speaker 1: It's not like that. That's not what MHM. People who 382 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:45,960 Speaker 1: have encountered this They don't feel that they're watching some 383 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:52,240 Speaker 1: needo artsy performance. They feel like that person is pretending 384 00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 1: to read a magazine, pretending to be on the phone. 385 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:58,679 Speaker 1: How long is that person going to keep uh, you know, 386 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:02,639 Speaker 1: looking at different hairs of sunglasses. Oh yeah, you know 387 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:06,719 Speaker 1: what I mean totally? And then another thing here. Then 388 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 1: I want to just talk about We're gonna have some 389 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:12,399 Speaker 1: examples moving forward, a little bit of personal experiences with 390 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:17,639 Speaker 1: this and our accounts. But other other ways gang stalking 391 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:21,600 Speaker 1: takes shape sometimes is when you're driving your car and 392 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 1: there's a there's the feeling that several cars around you, 393 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:29,120 Speaker 1: maybe maybe the one in front of you is slowing 394 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,520 Speaker 1: down to keep you going a certain speed, But then 395 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 1: they're also cars next to you, so you can't change 396 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:38,159 Speaker 1: lanes to go around this person that seems to be 397 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,199 Speaker 1: controlling you. And then maybe another car will box you 398 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:44,680 Speaker 1: in from behind and prevent you from really doing anything, 399 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:48,239 Speaker 1: especially if you're on a freeway. Um. There there are 400 00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:53,680 Speaker 1: instances where people will believe their home is wherever they 401 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:57,600 Speaker 1: wherever it is they live, and sleep is being consistently 402 00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:02,800 Speaker 1: surveiled by the same people that by the house at 403 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 1: certain Like you said, it kind of at certain times, 404 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:08,960 Speaker 1: or maybe wearing a very specific hat or are wearing 405 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:12,959 Speaker 1: the same clothes. Um, that's kind of the way it 406 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 1: takes form. And there are a lot of reasons that there. 407 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:21,960 Speaker 1: There are several categories of reasons people believe they're being 408 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 1: gang stocked. And before we get into too much of that, UM, 409 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 1: let's just I think we should give some examples of 410 00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:34,399 Speaker 1: people's accounts, like personal accounts. Yeah, yeah, that's probably the 411 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:37,399 Speaker 1: best way to depict this experience. Let's look at some 412 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:40,680 Speaker 1: first hand accounts of people who feel they have experienced 413 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:45,800 Speaker 1: gang stalking. James Crockett has has a great quote on 414 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 1: this in his article for Medium, and he describes it thusly. 415 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 1: In one video, a t I takes a go pro 416 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:55,920 Speaker 1: that's a GoPro camera on the New York subway and 417 00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:58,680 Speaker 1: narrates his journey to try to prove the existence of 418 00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 1: his stalkers. He know. It's a man in an orange 419 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,480 Speaker 1: jacket who occasionally looks at him, another tall man who 420 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 1: enters the train and makes eye contact with the man 421 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:09,240 Speaker 1: in the jacket, and a lady who he thinks he's 422 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:12,040 Speaker 1: giving him dirty looks whenever he looks away from her. 423 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:15,720 Speaker 1: For several stops, she just stands there. He says, these 424 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 1: people really do perform a vicious act. They don't care 425 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 1: if people are driven to suicidal depression, like I almost was. 426 00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:25,200 Speaker 1: It wasn't until after that I realized this was some 427 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 1: kind of sick game I am in. So there's another 428 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:32,920 Speaker 1: possibility there, you know, the saying it's a sick game. 429 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:36,960 Speaker 1: There's the idea that maybe this is a recreational activity 430 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 1: for some people. Maybe the causes just just to mess 431 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:47,360 Speaker 1: with people, you know, per perhaps um And you can 432 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,560 Speaker 1: also go online and see videos of people with a 433 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 1: cam quorder in a public space filming other people that 434 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 1: they believe our gang stalking the person with the cam quorder. 435 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,480 Speaker 1: And we're gonna have to get into that a little 436 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 1: bit later too, But just that concept of being in 437 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:10,560 Speaker 1: a public place with a camcorder aimed at strangers that 438 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 1: you don't know, I'm gonna say it's likely that you're 439 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:17,120 Speaker 1: going to bring attention to yourself because you're doing that. 440 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 1: Many of us, when we're in public spaces will notice 441 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 1: if there is a camera aimed at us, right, And again, 442 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:29,000 Speaker 1: like it's it's tough to know whether or not that 443 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:33,800 Speaker 1: attention is brought upon by the actions of the filmer 444 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 1: or if it's I mean, it feels that way to me, 445 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 1: but it's not conclusive, so we'll get into that a 446 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,760 Speaker 1: little bit later too. There's also a Vice short documentary 447 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:48,080 Speaker 1: that was created in two thousand seventeen called The Nightmare 448 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:51,120 Speaker 1: World of gang Stalking. It's a it's a video that's 449 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 1: available on YouTube right now, and there are several people 450 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,760 Speaker 1: in it who describe their experiences. So let's first turn 451 00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 1: to Billy B who was a makeup artist and a 452 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 1: self described uh gang stalking victim, and in his particular account, 453 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:08,120 Speaker 1: he believes he's a victim of culture stalking, which is 454 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,959 Speaker 1: kind of an offshoot of gang stalking functions in the 455 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:14,760 Speaker 1: same way, the reasons that he's being stalked are a 456 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 1: little bit altered. So in this case, he is a 457 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 1: man who identifies as homosexual, who is living in a 458 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 1: very let's say, conservative area, and he believes there's some 459 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:29,320 Speaker 1: conservative Christian group that is in in an organized way, 460 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 1: stalking him and doing these things like street theater. They're 461 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:36,480 Speaker 1: making him feel uncomfortable. Where he will be parked in 462 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 1: a fairly empty lot somewhere and then a lot of 463 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 1: cars will pull in and each one that pulls in 464 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 1: a head heterosexual couple gets out holding hands, being all 465 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,480 Speaker 1: cute right near his car and on purpose making eye 466 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:53,960 Speaker 1: contact with him or you know, flaunting it in front 467 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,040 Speaker 1: of him, and it would happen over and over and 468 00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 1: over and over and over. So this is this is 469 00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:00,320 Speaker 1: the way he describes it. You're in the all of 470 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:04,680 Speaker 1: this ridiculous rational impossibility that is real and is happening, 471 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 1: and it's stranger than fiction or anything that you can imagine, 472 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 1: and it's just terrifying. It pisces you off, it frustrates 473 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:17,640 Speaker 1: you beyond anything that you can imagine, and it changes you. 474 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:22,680 Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's rough to be feeling that right 475 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:26,880 Speaker 1: at an individual level. And what do we know? What 476 00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:30,800 Speaker 1: part of the country, Uh, this this person Mr B 477 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:33,880 Speaker 1: is in. This is California. This is California, and there's 478 00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:37,640 Speaker 1: a conservative area of California which does exist. Some people 479 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:41,800 Speaker 1: outside the state might be surprised by that. And the 480 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:48,760 Speaker 1: question then becomes, is this a situation where everybody in 481 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:51,360 Speaker 1: a community knows each other? You know, Like if you 482 00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:54,840 Speaker 1: go to a small town, right, people make eye contact, 483 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:58,040 Speaker 1: people wave, uh, And if you go to a small 484 00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:00,760 Speaker 1: town where people don't care for outside writers or don't 485 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:06,400 Speaker 1: care for you specifically. It becomes very clear very quickly 486 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:10,719 Speaker 1: that's is that gang stalking or is that just people 487 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:13,920 Speaker 1: being jerks? And people don't have to like have a 488 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:18,640 Speaker 1: meeting beforehand to be jerks. They naturally take to that. Yeah. Well, 489 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:21,440 Speaker 1: and this is gonna be a common theme here no 490 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:26,480 Speaker 1: matter no matter what even the truth is about what's happening, 491 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:34,200 Speaker 1: these targeted individuals believe that this is happening so wholeheartedly 492 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:39,360 Speaker 1: that it's affecting them, you know, mentally and emotionally and 493 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:44,200 Speaker 1: physically sometimes so you know, you're you're right on the money, 494 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:47,320 Speaker 1: But they're been like the way that I'm thinking about 495 00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:49,959 Speaker 1: these you know, some of the statements and some of 496 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:54,680 Speaker 1: the things that people are describing. Um, so let's let's 497 00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:57,480 Speaker 1: just turn to another person who was also from that 498 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 1: Vice documentary named Richard Bruce. He he's a guy who 499 00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:09,560 Speaker 1: I believe was living out of his RV and he 500 00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:13,400 Speaker 1: is describing his where he's lived over the course of 501 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:18,920 Speaker 1: several years in different places those like apartments and you know, 502 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:22,040 Speaker 1: the car and where he's living down the RV. All 503 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:26,120 Speaker 1: of these places were constantly surveilled by groups of people, 504 00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:29,719 Speaker 1: as well as by helicopters, police helicopters that would fly 505 00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:34,200 Speaker 1: over all the time, UM law enforcement vehicles that would 506 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,400 Speaker 1: pass by his living spaces all the time. When he 507 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:40,040 Speaker 1: was being interviewed for this documentary, he had a small 508 00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:42,880 Speaker 1: device next to him and I don't know if he 509 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:44,960 Speaker 1: was a radio or some kind of monitor or something, 510 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:48,960 Speaker 1: but when he would begin to talk about certain subjects 511 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:51,680 Speaker 1: or in certain ways, the device would make some noise, 512 00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:55,239 Speaker 1: and he believed that he was being listened to by 513 00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:59,240 Speaker 1: electronic surveillance, and specifically when he would bring up certain topics, 514 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:02,319 Speaker 1: that's when they were recording or you know, established to 515 00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:04,879 Speaker 1: the connection or something like this. And he does a 516 00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:08,560 Speaker 1: fantastic job, at least in this quotation or in this interview, 517 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:14,560 Speaker 1: showing medic cognition right thinking about thinking. He's self aware, 518 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:19,520 Speaker 1: and he understands how this may to someone hearing about 519 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,080 Speaker 1: this for the first time. He understands how this may 520 00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:26,439 Speaker 1: sound a little bit off kilter. Yeah, he says, it's 521 00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:30,839 Speaker 1: confusing to humans trying to understand gang stalking. Why would 522 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:33,400 Speaker 1: they do this to me? Why would they do these weird, 523 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 1: petty little things that may even just irritate me at 524 00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:40,000 Speaker 1: some moment this happens to you enough, believe me, you 525 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:43,480 Speaker 1: will feel stress. You will get that feeling of helplessness. 526 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,680 Speaker 1: This is not just like a gang of random people 527 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:50,520 Speaker 1: just doing this. This is procedural. If you were to 528 00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:53,279 Speaker 1: ask me what gang stalking is, it's a way to 529 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:58,279 Speaker 1: slowly kill people using their own decisions, which is fascinating, right, 530 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,240 Speaker 1: And from that interview, I think we can all feel 531 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:05,759 Speaker 1: the as if we're looking through a window into the 532 00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:09,560 Speaker 1: hopelessness in the in the terror and anxiety of this 533 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:13,600 Speaker 1: this person's life. If you want to read more of 534 00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:17,799 Speaker 1: these personal accounts, which again are anecdotal and are not 535 00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:22,600 Speaker 1: you know, uh, they don't contribute to a quantitative study 536 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:25,879 Speaker 1: of any sort. But if you would like to read 537 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:29,560 Speaker 1: these first hand accounts, again without us being able to 538 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:34,560 Speaker 1: vouch for their veracity, we recommend heading toward reddit dot 539 00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:38,440 Speaker 1: com are gang stalking reddit dot com slash are slash 540 00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:42,080 Speaker 1: gang stalking all one word, speak of words. We're gonna 541 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:45,160 Speaker 1: pause for one from our sponsor, and when we come back, 542 00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:49,280 Speaker 1: we're going to address the elephant in the room motive 543 00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:00,640 Speaker 1: we have returned. We hope that if you listening to 544 00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:03,160 Speaker 1: this show while you're in a public space. You're not 545 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:07,799 Speaker 1: getting increasingly weirded out. But there's a big problem that 546 00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:12,800 Speaker 1: you'll see with a lot of these Well, problem isn't 547 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:17,920 Speaker 1: the most accurate word. There's a big question that remains 548 00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:22,560 Speaker 1: unasked in a lot of these firsthand reports and a 549 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:25,560 Speaker 1: lot of the literature you will see about the concept 550 00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:29,120 Speaker 1: of gang stalking. It is this why why would you 551 00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:32,800 Speaker 1: do that? Right? Would you? Would you do it for 552 00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:39,600 Speaker 1: just pure evil, twisted recreation? You know, is this a 553 00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:44,160 Speaker 1: situation where mission control, Matt, you and I get together 554 00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:46,160 Speaker 1: and we say, hey, you know, the four or five 555 00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:49,399 Speaker 1: of us, it just just find someone on Facebook who 556 00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:52,399 Speaker 1: lives in our town and you know, just stalk them. Yeah, 557 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,839 Speaker 1: I just poked the bear, right, We're so tired of 558 00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:59,640 Speaker 1: playing board games. Let's let's do something different with our friendship. 559 00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:03,920 Speaker 1: Which may have happened, but that's that doesn't seem like 560 00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:06,319 Speaker 1: it would be the normal thing for people to do, 561 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:11,640 Speaker 1: not because people are inherently so great or noble, just 562 00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:14,160 Speaker 1: because it feels like a lot of work for a 563 00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:16,640 Speaker 1: lot of people unless they're getting something out of it. 564 00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:21,280 Speaker 1: So another question or another possible motive that we see 565 00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:25,520 Speaker 1: cited a lot pretty often by people who believe they 566 00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:29,440 Speaker 1: are being gang stalked. Is the idea that these activities 567 00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:33,880 Speaker 1: are occurring at the behest of the U S intelligence community, 568 00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:37,560 Speaker 1: and this again goes to a lot of US reports. 569 00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:43,040 Speaker 1: So there's a site called fight gang stalking dot com 570 00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:45,960 Speaker 1: and according to you can tell from the title that 571 00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:49,960 Speaker 1: to them, this is a legitimate, real phenomenon. And according 572 00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:53,560 Speaker 1: to fight gang stalking dot com, gang stalking is quote 573 00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:58,279 Speaker 1: most likely a disinformation term created by US intelligence agencies. 574 00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:02,680 Speaker 1: It refers to the intense, long term, unconstitutional surveillance and 575 00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:05,560 Speaker 1: harassment of a person who has been designated as a 576 00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:11,560 Speaker 1: target by someone associated with America's security industry. And it 577 00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:14,840 Speaker 1: goes on to say, quote, the goal of such operations, 578 00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:19,640 Speaker 1: in the parlance of counterintelligence agents is disruption of the 579 00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:22,160 Speaker 1: life of an individual deemed to be an enemy or 580 00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:25,880 Speaker 1: potential enemy of clients or members of the security state. 581 00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:29,360 Speaker 1: Arguably the most accurate term for this form of harassment 582 00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:33,759 Speaker 1: would be counter intelligence stalking. So there's a problem here though. 583 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:36,800 Speaker 1: The problem is this the t i s or targeted 584 00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:42,200 Speaker 1: individuals are rarely unified in what exactly caused them to 585 00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:47,960 Speaker 1: be stalked. While it is absolutely, inarguably true that extensive 586 00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:50,920 Speaker 1: and a legal surveillance has been used by past and 587 00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:54,480 Speaker 1: current governments. Should not be a surprise to anybody. Uh, 588 00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:58,880 Speaker 1: there's relatively little follow up reporting in these gang stalking stories, 589 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:04,960 Speaker 1: and there's relatively little coherent explanation for why these people 590 00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:10,360 Speaker 1: would be driven to fearful actions or to mental instability, 591 00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:14,000 Speaker 1: or you know, at the worst, to self harm. Yeah, 592 00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:17,840 Speaker 1: well you have to apply the motive problem then to 593 00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:22,799 Speaker 1: the security state or to the intelligence agencies, right, why 594 00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:26,680 Speaker 1: what is their motive for targeting that individual? And then 595 00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:32,120 Speaker 1: this goes to the the trench coat clad fenora wearing 596 00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:40,160 Speaker 1: elephant in the room. Is this a genuine phenomenon occurring 597 00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:43,080 Speaker 1: the way in which it's described and are the people 598 00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:48,680 Speaker 1: experiencing and describing it accurately or are people some if 599 00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:54,080 Speaker 1: not all, these people experiencing some kind of delusion that 600 00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:58,480 Speaker 1: that that could be considered an offensive question, but it 601 00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:01,920 Speaker 1: shouldn't be. It's a necessar seri question. Absolutely. If we're 602 00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:03,960 Speaker 1: going to talk about this, we have to at least 603 00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:06,080 Speaker 1: think about so what do we have to go on? 604 00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:09,560 Speaker 1: Where where can we look to for some answers like 605 00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:12,279 Speaker 1: what what even? What is? What do we mean when 606 00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:14,600 Speaker 1: we say delusion. Well, let's jump back to that Vice 607 00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:18,920 Speaker 1: documentary again. Huge shout out to the team members Advice 608 00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:22,640 Speaker 1: that created that documentary. It really is fantastic and there's 609 00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:25,080 Speaker 1: a lot of insight here and things to think about 610 00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:28,920 Speaker 1: to chew on philosophically. Um. So, they interviewed a fellow 611 00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:32,640 Speaker 1: named Josh Basil or b A. Z E. L l Uh. 612 00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:36,200 Speaker 1: He's a physician and an author, and he's discussing the 613 00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:39,480 Speaker 1: psychiatric definitions of delusion and he's saying that these tend 614 00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:42,200 Speaker 1: to focus really on two principles. The first one is 615 00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:46,160 Speaker 1: that the ideas, if you're at at least uh, if 616 00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:51,040 Speaker 1: you're experiencing a delusion, the ideas that you have are 617 00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:55,239 Speaker 1: not vulnerable to evidence. So if someone shows you, look 618 00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:58,200 Speaker 1: this thing, you believe it is not true because of 619 00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:01,760 Speaker 1: this I have evidence, that wouldn't matter because you would 620 00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:05,000 Speaker 1: still believe it. Okay. The other part of a delusion 621 00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:08,600 Speaker 1: is that people in your immediate sphere of influence, perhaps 622 00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:12,520 Speaker 1: the people in the culture at large, or in your town, 623 00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:15,759 Speaker 1: or in the case of Billy b maybe the conservative 624 00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:19,719 Speaker 1: neighborhood where he's moved to. Those people don't share your beliefs, 625 00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:22,720 Speaker 1: so they don't believe that what you believe is happening 626 00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:26,080 Speaker 1: is true. That would be one of the ways we 627 00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:30,200 Speaker 1: get to considering someone to have a delusion. Now, he 628 00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:32,840 Speaker 1: goes on to say, the question becomes, um, there is 629 00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:35,359 Speaker 1: a full quote. The question becomes, if you can find 630 00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:37,880 Speaker 1: ten thousand people on the internet who believe the same 631 00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:41,760 Speaker 1: thing as you, is that then a delusion? Is it? 632 00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:45,080 Speaker 1: Is it even bizarre? Quite possibly not? If everybody believes 633 00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:47,640 Speaker 1: this stuff at least, this would be the question you 634 00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:51,080 Speaker 1: ask yourself as you stumble upon ten thousand other people 635 00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:55,040 Speaker 1: that share your in this case what he's calling a delusion. Uh, 636 00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:57,839 Speaker 1: is it in any way insane? And the answer would 637 00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:00,680 Speaker 1: be no, because it is not delusionable. Look at all 638 00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:04,120 Speaker 1: these other people who are experiencing the same thing, and 639 00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:07,879 Speaker 1: I think this is It's a fascinating way to look 640 00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:11,960 Speaker 1: at it. Because then does it get into the realm 641 00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:16,080 Speaker 1: of group delusion or is it still on the personal 642 00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:20,000 Speaker 1: level of because it is a very personal experience. Gang 643 00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:23,040 Speaker 1: stalking like the perception that I am being gang stalked. 644 00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:28,120 Speaker 1: It is not as though gang stalkers are looking at 645 00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:30,560 Speaker 1: my whole neighborhood or looking at my whole you know. 646 00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:34,239 Speaker 1: Cul de sac or whatever whatever it may be. It's 647 00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:38,160 Speaker 1: generally a targeted thing. That's why they are called targeted individuals. 648 00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:40,279 Speaker 1: I don't know, it's a tough thing. It's a tough 649 00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:42,719 Speaker 1: egg to crack there. For for me at least, it 650 00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:49,920 Speaker 1: also goes into philosophy. Yeah, that's that's really what what 651 00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:54,440 Speaker 1: the psychologist is doing here is looking at the problem 652 00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:59,239 Speaker 1: of perception and reality. Oh yeah, no, you're right. So 653 00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:04,920 Speaker 1: that's that's a that's an egg that our species has 654 00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:10,280 Speaker 1: yet to effectively crack. We know that things can become 655 00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:16,480 Speaker 1: normalized for people at a cartoonishly quick rate. So we 656 00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:19,000 Speaker 1: know that our our concept of what normal is is 657 00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:23,760 Speaker 1: very malleable. And we know that our species tends to 658 00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:29,200 Speaker 1: look to anything we perceive as peers for confirmation of things. 659 00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:33,279 Speaker 1: And also at the weirdest times, we're very talented and 660 00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:37,520 Speaker 1: big up in each other. I mean, maybe that's just 661 00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:40,880 Speaker 1: my experience, but I've had I've had some conversations with 662 00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:46,000 Speaker 1: absolute strangers that confirms some deeply held quote unquote crazy 663 00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:50,400 Speaker 1: things that I believe, you know, uh, and and having 664 00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:53,800 Speaker 1: someone else, whether you meet them in person or whether 665 00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:59,200 Speaker 1: they're just a block of text that you can assume 666 00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:02,600 Speaker 1: is a person, uh talking back to and confirming your beliefs. 667 00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:05,520 Speaker 1: Having somebody else say that is a light in the 668 00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:07,759 Speaker 1: darkness for a lot of people, you know what I mean. 669 00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:10,960 Speaker 1: And that's a huge that's a huge thing. That's a 670 00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:16,320 Speaker 1: trope in fiction. That's a common experience and individual reality 671 00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:19,319 Speaker 1: to have someone else say something to you that lets 672 00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:23,000 Speaker 1: you know I'm not the only one. We do that 673 00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:28,240 Speaker 1: in the smallest, like the smallest, most seemingly insignificant situations, 674 00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:31,480 Speaker 1: you know, like let's say you and I and and 675 00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:34,600 Speaker 1: Paul are like recording in the studio, Matt, and then 676 00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:37,640 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, there's this weird you know, where 677 00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:39,279 Speaker 1: did you come from? Where did you go? Where did 678 00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:43,000 Speaker 1: you come from? Cotton ey Joe? We look around and 679 00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:47,560 Speaker 1: we check even now, and we're a relatively saying mental 680 00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:52,120 Speaker 1: stuff arguably, but even we still check, like, Hey, does 681 00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:55,840 Speaker 1: anybody here cotton eyed Joe? Or is this finally that 682 00:45:55,960 --> 00:46:00,360 Speaker 1: psychotic break we all there was coming uh this? And 683 00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:02,400 Speaker 1: I don't want to get too far off topic there, 684 00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:07,480 Speaker 1: but I can see the power of that, certainly, and 685 00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:10,799 Speaker 1: it's a reinforcement all the way, right. And then there's 686 00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:15,239 Speaker 1: also uh set and setting, which I think continues in 687 00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:20,359 Speaker 1: the quotation oh absolutely, UM. And just before we jump 688 00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:22,520 Speaker 1: into that bend, I want to talk about a concept 689 00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:28,240 Speaker 1: of hyper vigilance. And it's it's something that Josh brings 690 00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:33,120 Speaker 1: up in that documentary, and it's this. It's the concept that, UM, 691 00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:38,960 Speaker 1: for our own self preservation, if we are experiencing something 692 00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:43,640 Speaker 1: where we believe we're experiencing something, we we AerR on 693 00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:46,840 Speaker 1: the side of safety for ourselves, for our personal safety, 694 00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:51,320 Speaker 1: rather than on whatever the social moras would be, whatever 695 00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:55,600 Speaker 1: the standard actions to take would be for someone. And 696 00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:58,920 Speaker 1: it all occurs when there's a perceived connection that may 697 00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:02,480 Speaker 1: or may not be there. So we're talking about seeing 698 00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:07,239 Speaker 1: somebody walk by and then seeing that person maybe walk 699 00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:13,360 Speaker 1: by again. Um. The hyper vigilance within a lot of 700 00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:17,319 Speaker 1: people experiencing this would be, Oh, that person may want, 701 00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:20,040 Speaker 1: you know, maybe a part of this thing that I'm 702 00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:24,120 Speaker 1: already feeling or already believe I'm experiencing, rather than perhaps 703 00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:27,799 Speaker 1: that person went to go get you know, something down 704 00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:30,000 Speaker 1: the street and then you didn't see them walk by. 705 00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:32,320 Speaker 1: Now they're going back down again, or you know, something 706 00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:36,279 Speaker 1: to that effect. But ultimately, what this is, or what 707 00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:41,799 Speaker 1: that means is that people experiencing this are going to 708 00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:44,120 Speaker 1: be more hyper aware of things like that because they 709 00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:47,759 Speaker 1: are so worried about their own safety already, because of 710 00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:50,600 Speaker 1: the anxieties that are brought up by feeling this way. 711 00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:55,080 Speaker 1: Um it's almost like it just builds on itself. Um. So, 712 00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:58,000 Speaker 1: then Josh goes on to talk about how there are 713 00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:04,520 Speaker 1: real world instances of surveillance, either targeted or mass surveillance, 714 00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:09,319 Speaker 1: that maybe we should be worried about. That are they 715 00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:12,200 Speaker 1: are very much real, They've been proven, they exist around 716 00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:15,840 Speaker 1: us every day. And I'll just read this quick quote 717 00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:20,000 Speaker 1: from you, he says, because this this reminds me of 718 00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:21,960 Speaker 1: stuff and what you know. He says, given that the 719 00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:25,040 Speaker 1: world is filled with groups of people operating in secret 720 00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:28,240 Speaker 1: or trying to to divorce us from our money, our power, 721 00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:30,640 Speaker 1: or whatever they want from us, one thing that might 722 00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:33,080 Speaker 1: be helpful to ask from a psychiatric point of view 723 00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:36,120 Speaker 1: is what's wrong with the rest of us? Why am 724 00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:38,920 Speaker 1: I so relaxed? What's wrong with me? Why don't I 725 00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:41,719 Speaker 1: feel like I'm being gang stocked? Is it that I'm 726 00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:44,520 Speaker 1: living in the matrix where, in order to feel more comfortable, 727 00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:46,799 Speaker 1: I've decided to ignore a lot of the evils in 728 00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:49,120 Speaker 1: the world and a lot of the potential threats to me. 729 00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:52,239 Speaker 1: And there he's referencing the n s A is mass 730 00:48:52,239 --> 00:48:58,560 Speaker 1: surveillance of citizens within the United States. He's referencing other countries, UM, 731 00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:01,279 Speaker 1: such as the UK and England over there where you 732 00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:04,800 Speaker 1: know it's they're the most CCTV cameras per capita anywhere 733 00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:07,960 Speaker 1: on the planet. He's he's mentioning that this stuff is 734 00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:13,320 Speaker 1: very real. Uh, and why aren't more of us worried 735 00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:16,680 Speaker 1: about that kind of thing? If you apply in a 736 00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:21,440 Speaker 1: more general sense, what these people who believe they're targeted 737 00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:26,560 Speaker 1: individuals are feeling to UM on a mass level, let's 738 00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:31,799 Speaker 1: say that. Yeah, so let's let's spend just a just 739 00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:37,200 Speaker 1: a second on that concept, because it's the other side 740 00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:40,640 Speaker 1: of that coin, right, it's the it's the other side 741 00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:43,839 Speaker 1: of the argument. If you feel like you are being 742 00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:45,960 Speaker 1: gang stocked, and then you go somewhere you find ten 743 00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:49,839 Speaker 1: thousand other people who say, yes, it's true, then are 744 00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:51,520 Speaker 1: you how are you supposed to feel if you don't 745 00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:54,120 Speaker 1: believe you're being getting stocked and then you're surrounded by 746 00:49:54,160 --> 00:49:57,279 Speaker 1: people who are saying, yeah, no, it's true, it's there 747 00:49:57,280 --> 00:50:00,279 Speaker 1: out for all of us. Why are you so chill, 748 00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:04,760 Speaker 1: what is wrong with you? It's an interesting question because 749 00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:09,440 Speaker 1: it hits on that, It hits on that need for 750 00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:13,880 Speaker 1: consensus that has just baked into every human mind. U. 751 00:50:14,040 --> 00:50:16,200 Speaker 1: I want to go back to the concept of hyper 752 00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:19,920 Speaker 1: vigilance because it's another concept that is baked into the 753 00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:24,799 Speaker 1: human mind, and that is a pattern must exist and 754 00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:30,759 Speaker 1: so much so so many of our even relatively mundane activities, 755 00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:35,359 Speaker 1: especially our observations, there's this little voice in her head. 756 00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:37,720 Speaker 1: May not be able to hear it all the time 757 00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:40,040 Speaker 1: because it's tough for us to listen to ourselves, but 758 00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:42,759 Speaker 1: the little voice in your head is always going A 759 00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:48,360 Speaker 1: pattern must exist, A pattern must exist, right, and this 760 00:50:48,560 --> 00:50:51,840 Speaker 1: is uh, this is a crucial skill. We have to 761 00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:54,799 Speaker 1: have it to survive in the world. Ever since we 762 00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:57,680 Speaker 1: were not the Apex predator and we were running around 763 00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:01,160 Speaker 1: trying to figure out what are a two bees and 764 00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:03,360 Speaker 1: if then's were that would keep us alive for the 765 00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:08,880 Speaker 1: next day. So arguably hyper vigilance is just a reflection 766 00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:12,080 Speaker 1: of that. Are just an extension of that much needed 767 00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:16,960 Speaker 1: survival skill. Now, if it sounds like we're poking holes 768 00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:22,640 Speaker 1: in the experience of gang stalking, that's because we we 769 00:51:22,719 --> 00:51:26,359 Speaker 1: are asking important questions that haven't been answered. It's not 770 00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:31,879 Speaker 1: necessarily uniform motive. There's not necessarily a lot of follow up. Right, 771 00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:35,359 Speaker 1: There are very many good stats on the phenomenon known 772 00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:39,680 Speaker 1: as gang stalking. But speaking to the other side of 773 00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:43,799 Speaker 1: the coin, uh, there are things that are like it 774 00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:48,200 Speaker 1: that are proven the reality of government and corporate surveillance. 775 00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:52,280 Speaker 1: According to the a c l U, privacy today faces 776 00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:56,799 Speaker 1: growing threats from a growing surveillance apparatus. It's often justified 777 00:51:56,920 --> 00:52:01,839 Speaker 1: in the name of one of our favorite boogeymen, national security. 778 00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:06,439 Speaker 1: You can do it in a spooky voice. A ton 779 00:52:06,520 --> 00:52:09,480 Speaker 1: of government agencies I'm paraphrasing. Now, they didn't say a 780 00:52:09,520 --> 00:52:12,680 Speaker 1: ton a ton of government agencies from like the n 781 00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:16,319 Speaker 1: s A, the FBI, Department of Homeland Security, and so on, 782 00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:19,279 Speaker 1: along with state and local law enforcement, intrude on the 783 00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:25,560 Speaker 1: private communication of innocent citizens, and they amass great databases 784 00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:28,319 Speaker 1: of who we talked to or interact with and when 785 00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:32,600 Speaker 1: we do, and then catalogs suspicious activities based on very 786 00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:36,399 Speaker 1: very vague standards. We've talked already about big data. We've 787 00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:40,680 Speaker 1: talked about the strange what's that? What's that? Game? People 788 00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:45,920 Speaker 1: like celebrities play six six degrees of Kevin Bacon. That's 789 00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:54,040 Speaker 1: that's how Uncle Sam traces terrorist activities. You know associates, 790 00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:58,680 Speaker 1: right known associates, which extends further and further out, similar 791 00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:04,640 Speaker 1: to the DPRK's policy of intergenerational punishment, except now you're 792 00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:07,279 Speaker 1: it's now the laws don't apply to you. The same 793 00:53:07,320 --> 00:53:11,040 Speaker 1: way if a guy you knew in college met somebody 794 00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:13,759 Speaker 1: and became Facebook friends with him, and then they later 795 00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:17,279 Speaker 1: tried to join isyes, you know what I mean. And 796 00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:22,160 Speaker 1: the argument there is that that is that hoover vacuum 797 00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:26,040 Speaker 1: approach to data and in in personal information is the best 798 00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:31,439 Speaker 1: way to prevent a future catastrophe. And that is I mean, 799 00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:35,520 Speaker 1: that argument does have some sand, but it also it's 800 00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:41,160 Speaker 1: tough to prove. It's like the old time travel problem. 801 00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:44,840 Speaker 1: Like if you if you went back in time and 802 00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:49,520 Speaker 1: you killed Hitler when Hitler was a kid or something 803 00:53:49,560 --> 00:53:53,840 Speaker 1: that yet no no one would know that you uh, 804 00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:56,480 Speaker 1: no one would know that you prevented him from playing 805 00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:59,000 Speaker 1: a part in World War two because no one would 806 00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:01,239 Speaker 1: know about World War two. You would have killed a 807 00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:04,400 Speaker 1: child as far as everyone was concerned. So you have 808 00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:08,640 Speaker 1: committed a great sin. We can't prove to people. It's 809 00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:12,000 Speaker 1: hard to prove to people that we prevented something from 810 00:54:12,040 --> 00:54:16,680 Speaker 1: happening when we do it in such a way that 811 00:54:16,760 --> 00:54:21,799 Speaker 1: it never happened. I know, and sorry it's virgin into philosophy, 812 00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:25,280 Speaker 1: but it's the It's an argument that we hear pretty often, 813 00:54:25,680 --> 00:54:29,279 Speaker 1: and it's a fascinating argument. But the truth is, these 814 00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:32,279 Speaker 1: standards are very vague, and we know that surveillance has 815 00:54:32,320 --> 00:54:37,279 Speaker 1: been abused in the past. Co Intel was is real? Right, 816 00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:40,319 Speaker 1: It certainly was. It certainly was. Let's put that is 817 00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:44,400 Speaker 1: in parentheses with a question mark. Multiple government agencies have 818 00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:48,759 Speaker 1: in the past monitored and harassed civilians even though it 819 00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:52,080 Speaker 1: is not suspected of committing a crime. We just don't 820 00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:54,359 Speaker 1: like what this person is doing to the status quo. 821 00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:57,240 Speaker 1: We don't like what they're protesting. Let's keep an eye 822 00:54:57,239 --> 00:55:00,680 Speaker 1: on them. We don't like the potential movement of society 823 00:55:00,680 --> 00:55:04,160 Speaker 1: of this person is let to be successful, right exactly, 824 00:55:04,600 --> 00:55:08,800 Speaker 1: And today's episode has been you know, necessarily us centric 825 00:55:09,239 --> 00:55:12,200 Speaker 1: because these we were able to find some of the 826 00:55:12,239 --> 00:55:15,960 Speaker 1: best UH stats on you know, on on orthodox stalking, 827 00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:18,880 Speaker 1: and then we were able to find a lot of 828 00:55:18,960 --> 00:55:22,520 Speaker 1: information on gang stalking. But This is by no means 829 00:55:22,520 --> 00:55:26,600 Speaker 1: of phenomenon solely reported in the US. The United Kingdom 830 00:55:26,719 --> 00:55:29,200 Speaker 1: has a fair share of people who believe they are 831 00:55:29,239 --> 00:55:33,640 Speaker 1: being gang stalked or they are targeted individuals. And additionally, 832 00:55:33,960 --> 00:55:40,839 Speaker 1: it is absolutely true, absolutely irrefutably true, that other repressive 833 00:55:40,880 --> 00:55:44,520 Speaker 1: governments do have stuff like this happening. If secret police, 834 00:55:44,680 --> 00:55:49,160 Speaker 1: there's security agents. You you're a journalist in a in 835 00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:53,640 Speaker 1: a particularly oppressive country, Yeah, you're gonna be followed. You might. 836 00:55:53,920 --> 00:55:57,680 Speaker 1: I mean it's not it might you and them. It 837 00:55:57,800 --> 00:56:00,239 Speaker 1: might not even be surreptitious. You might land at the 838 00:56:00,239 --> 00:56:02,720 Speaker 1: airport they do allow you in and they say, okay, 839 00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:06,399 Speaker 1: you're gonna hang with these two people entirety, and they're 840 00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:08,879 Speaker 1: gonna drive. It's for your safety, it's it's for your 841 00:56:09,000 --> 00:56:12,920 Speaker 1: safety and for our national security. This also applies to 842 00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:19,600 Speaker 1: opposition politicians, activists, right, somebody fighting for a particular type 843 00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:22,840 Speaker 1: of human rights that the government would rather not have 844 00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:28,320 Speaker 1: um members of non state approved religions, like this stuff happens. 845 00:56:28,760 --> 00:56:30,160 Speaker 1: You know what, I don't want to pile on here 846 00:56:30,520 --> 00:56:33,239 Speaker 1: as though, like, oh, this is all real, there's so 847 00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:36,279 Speaker 1: much impression to our privacy and our security. But uh, 848 00:56:36,520 --> 00:56:39,560 Speaker 1: you know, we willingly let this stuff, especially the corporate 849 00:56:39,680 --> 00:56:43,000 Speaker 1: kind nowadays, directly into our home. We have whole episodes 850 00:56:43,040 --> 00:56:46,480 Speaker 1: on this about the smart assistant that maybe you're listening 851 00:56:46,520 --> 00:56:50,160 Speaker 1: to this through. Maybe it's uh, just a couple of 852 00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:53,120 Speaker 1: the apps within your phone where you store all your email, 853 00:56:53,560 --> 00:56:57,279 Speaker 1: but it's a company, a corporation, the third party from 854 00:56:57,320 --> 00:57:00,920 Speaker 1: you that is controlling all of that stuff. Um, the 855 00:57:01,040 --> 00:57:03,880 Speaker 1: social media posts that you make every day of where 856 00:57:03,920 --> 00:57:06,520 Speaker 1: you are and what you're doing, and the you know, 857 00:57:06,600 --> 00:57:09,920 Speaker 1: think about that like establishing patterns were we're doing that 858 00:57:10,120 --> 00:57:12,879 Speaker 1: every day. That's what we do, and we just let 859 00:57:12,920 --> 00:57:15,600 Speaker 1: it out into the world, not only for the corporation 860 00:57:15,680 --> 00:57:19,440 Speaker 1: but for anybody else who cares to watch or listen. 861 00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:22,360 Speaker 1: And it also doesn't help, by the way, that there 862 00:57:22,400 --> 00:57:26,360 Speaker 1: are commercial applications out there that will do the things 863 00:57:26,400 --> 00:57:30,400 Speaker 1: that people are the most terrified about. Do tell like, uh, um, 864 00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:33,560 Speaker 1: what's it called m spy and flexi spy or two. 865 00:57:33,640 --> 00:57:36,360 Speaker 1: There's just two of them, but these are two available 866 00:57:36,440 --> 00:57:39,960 Speaker 1: things applications that can be added onto your device, whatever 867 00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:42,560 Speaker 1: it is. And one of them only takes a few 868 00:57:42,560 --> 00:57:46,080 Speaker 1: minutes and another one takes about an hour to fully install. 869 00:57:46,840 --> 00:57:48,080 Speaker 1: Because you have some of them you have to like 870 00:57:48,120 --> 00:57:51,720 Speaker 1: jail break phone or whatever your device is. Yeah, but 871 00:57:51,840 --> 00:57:54,600 Speaker 1: if you some of them, you can just if if 872 00:57:54,840 --> 00:57:56,520 Speaker 1: let's just say I was able to get hold of 873 00:57:56,560 --> 00:57:59,160 Speaker 1: Paul's phone for a few minutes while he went to 874 00:57:59,200 --> 00:58:01,320 Speaker 1: the bathroom or something thing, and you were able to 875 00:58:01,360 --> 00:58:04,160 Speaker 1: get past the security code. Yeah, yeah, but but it's 876 00:58:04,160 --> 00:58:07,120 Speaker 1: specifically in people who are worried about stalking. If you're 877 00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:09,880 Speaker 1: talking about your significant other or someone who maybe does 878 00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:13,720 Speaker 1: know the codes to your phone or something. Uh, it 879 00:58:13,760 --> 00:58:17,040 Speaker 1: can be installed like that, then you can access their email, 880 00:58:17,120 --> 00:58:19,680 Speaker 1: their texts, they're in staff feed, there were you know, 881 00:58:19,680 --> 00:58:22,720 Speaker 1: blah blah blah blah blah, whatever it is. It's terrifying 882 00:58:22,840 --> 00:58:26,080 Speaker 1: that that's out there. Don't let people touch your phone, man, 883 00:58:26,320 --> 00:58:31,040 Speaker 1: I mean that's the rule, yes, and it's it's all true, 884 00:58:31,120 --> 00:58:35,440 Speaker 1: and it can easily be abused. There's another thing. We 885 00:58:35,560 --> 00:58:40,200 Speaker 1: just had it in the notes as Oh and one 886 00:58:40,240 --> 00:58:42,720 Speaker 1: more thing yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. You want to spoiled 887 00:58:42,760 --> 00:58:47,840 Speaker 1: a surprise. So this sounds pretty sci fi. I want 888 00:58:47,840 --> 00:58:50,960 Speaker 1: to hear whether anyone else has heard of this. But 889 00:58:51,040 --> 00:58:53,640 Speaker 1: a lot of people own smart TVs right now, right, Yeah, 890 00:58:53,680 --> 00:58:56,520 Speaker 1: you may not even be aware that it's a smart TV, right, 891 00:58:57,080 --> 00:59:00,280 Speaker 1: maybe a smart TV plane dumb and you can tie 892 00:59:00,320 --> 00:59:02,640 Speaker 1: your phone or you can you know, pair your phone 893 00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:06,560 Speaker 1: to the television and things of that nature. It turns 894 00:59:06,560 --> 00:59:11,320 Speaker 1: out that the technology exists such that a smart TV, 895 00:59:11,920 --> 00:59:15,360 Speaker 1: there's certain types of TVs when they are playing commercials 896 00:59:15,800 --> 00:59:19,680 Speaker 1: will send a an audio signal out. It's non adio 897 00:59:19,720 --> 00:59:22,440 Speaker 1: signal you can hear. If you have pets, good for you, 898 00:59:22,680 --> 00:59:26,480 Speaker 1: they probably can't hear it either, but your smart devices 899 00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:32,280 Speaker 1: can and through this, through this relay, this ping you know. 900 00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:34,680 Speaker 1: Of course, one of the big gets is the advertisers 901 00:59:34,720 --> 00:59:38,320 Speaker 1: know someone's in the room when the add is playing. 902 00:59:38,400 --> 00:59:40,480 Speaker 1: And that's big. Someone's actually seeing the thing. They can 903 00:59:40,480 --> 00:59:44,560 Speaker 1: prove it or maybe even how many and maybe even who. 904 00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:50,160 Speaker 1: So the data is you know, anonymized or whatever. But 905 00:59:50,440 --> 00:59:56,200 Speaker 1: this this means that for people who are dismissing the 906 00:59:56,280 --> 01:00:02,280 Speaker 1: idea of gang stocking, don't dismiss the idea of surveillance 907 01:00:02,360 --> 01:00:07,600 Speaker 1: that you cannot perceive. It's there. It's real, you know 908 01:00:08,400 --> 01:00:13,040 Speaker 1: there are It's not like there's one shadowy cabal that 909 01:00:13,120 --> 01:00:16,040 Speaker 1: knows a ton of stuff about you that you thought 910 01:00:16,080 --> 01:00:19,040 Speaker 1: was secret. And it's not like you're doing anything bad. 911 01:00:19,680 --> 01:00:22,160 Speaker 1: It's more like there are a bunch of people who 912 01:00:22,240 --> 01:00:25,160 Speaker 1: are trying to figure out how best to predict your 913 01:00:25,160 --> 01:00:29,600 Speaker 1: behavior in such a way that they can monetize your behavior, or, 914 01:00:29,920 --> 01:00:33,240 Speaker 1: at the very sith end of the spectrum, push you 915 01:00:33,880 --> 01:00:37,040 Speaker 1: to make decisions that you might not have ordinarily made. 916 01:00:37,560 --> 01:00:40,440 Speaker 1: That's real. That's not a theory. Instead of a theory, 917 01:00:40,720 --> 01:00:43,760 Speaker 1: it's a huge business. If you'd like to, If you'd 918 01:00:43,760 --> 01:00:46,800 Speaker 1: like to learn more about some of this, check out 919 01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:49,680 Speaker 1: article in New York Times how smart TVs and millions 920 01:00:49,680 --> 01:00:53,479 Speaker 1: of US homes track more than what's on tonight. That's 921 01:00:53,520 --> 01:00:55,760 Speaker 1: just an opening to the rabbit hole. And then burrow 922 01:00:55,880 --> 01:00:58,920 Speaker 1: in and tell us what you think. And speaking of 923 01:00:58,960 --> 01:01:02,040 Speaker 1: what you think, I've gotta say this leads to some 924 01:01:02,120 --> 01:01:04,680 Speaker 1: of the key issues with the concept of gang stalking. 925 01:01:05,280 --> 01:01:09,840 Speaker 1: Number One, government surveillance, at least here in the US, 926 01:01:10,160 --> 01:01:13,960 Speaker 1: is typically intended to be invisible. That does not apply 927 01:01:14,240 --> 01:01:17,840 Speaker 1: to every other country. I don't know whether it's still 928 01:01:17,880 --> 01:01:21,000 Speaker 1: the case somebody in mainland China tell me, but for 929 01:01:21,000 --> 01:01:24,240 Speaker 1: for a long time, if you're using the internet like 930 01:01:24,280 --> 01:01:26,880 Speaker 1: you're in an Internet cafe in China. Uh. When we 931 01:01:26,920 --> 01:01:29,920 Speaker 1: talked about this on previous episode. Every so often there 932 01:01:29,920 --> 01:01:33,520 Speaker 1: will be a cute little cartoon police officer that comes 933 01:01:33,560 --> 01:01:35,840 Speaker 1: on just to let you know that the government is 934 01:01:35,880 --> 01:01:38,880 Speaker 1: monitoring your Internet usage for your safety, to keep you safe, 935 01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:43,840 Speaker 1: you know, national security, etcetera. The concept of gang stalking 936 01:01:44,240 --> 01:01:47,760 Speaker 1: argues that targeted individuals are very much aware of the 937 01:01:47,800 --> 01:01:51,840 Speaker 1: situation and being and having your target be very much 938 01:01:51,880 --> 01:01:56,560 Speaker 1: aware of the situation. In normal stalking, surveillance stuff or 939 01:01:56,600 --> 01:02:01,520 Speaker 1: a normal surveillance at least renders that surveillance ineffective because 940 01:02:01,560 --> 01:02:05,280 Speaker 1: it changes the behavior of a target, like how observing 941 01:02:05,480 --> 01:02:11,600 Speaker 1: things can change their behavior. So wait, we might rightly say, 942 01:02:11,800 --> 01:02:14,160 Speaker 1: isn't the point of this not to observe someone and 943 01:02:14,240 --> 01:02:17,600 Speaker 1: gather info, but to interfere with their sanity, waging psy 944 01:02:17,680 --> 01:02:21,000 Speaker 1: ops to gaslight them and maybe even drive them to suicide. 945 01:02:21,400 --> 01:02:27,320 Speaker 1: Sure there's a problem with that claim too. Oh yeah, uh, 946 01:02:27,360 --> 01:02:31,000 Speaker 1: we know we have proof the government, at least in 947 01:02:31,000 --> 01:02:34,240 Speaker 1: this country, and intelligence agencies that are just arms of 948 01:02:34,280 --> 01:02:37,520 Speaker 1: that government, have at least in the past, done a 949 01:02:37,520 --> 01:02:41,120 Speaker 1: lot more than gang stalking to terrify and seek vengeance 950 01:02:41,200 --> 01:02:44,920 Speaker 1: against people that they perceive at least as threats. We 951 01:02:44,960 --> 01:02:46,800 Speaker 1: know that for sure, So I mean, we have to 952 01:02:46,800 --> 01:02:49,520 Speaker 1: ask ourselves, like, why would a government agency with the 953 01:02:49,560 --> 01:02:56,440 Speaker 1: ability to literally disappear somebody. It's happened before, it's happening. 954 01:02:57,040 --> 01:02:59,880 Speaker 1: I don't know if it is. It's probably happening now 955 01:03:00,080 --> 01:03:03,400 Speaker 1: or next week. We could it could happen. Um, why 956 01:03:03,400 --> 01:03:08,040 Speaker 1: would they bother to just annoy somebody? Why would why 957 01:03:08,040 --> 01:03:12,160 Speaker 1: would they do this kind of strategy that is so 958 01:03:12,320 --> 01:03:16,000 Speaker 1: long term, with so many resources as you said earlier, 959 01:03:16,400 --> 01:03:19,920 Speaker 1: that would be required to do it to a target 960 01:03:20,120 --> 01:03:23,960 Speaker 1: like some of the people who believe they're being targeted, right, Yeah, 961 01:03:24,200 --> 01:03:28,720 Speaker 1: if you can just grab a mouse and snap its neck, 962 01:03:29,160 --> 01:03:31,680 Speaker 1: why would you play a game of mouse trap? Why 963 01:03:31,680 --> 01:03:35,760 Speaker 1: would you have this Rube Goldberg esque thing? It could be. 964 01:03:35,920 --> 01:03:40,640 Speaker 1: I I heard some people say it is psychological experiment, 965 01:03:40,920 --> 01:03:44,520 Speaker 1: similar to some of that m. K Ultra stuff. But 966 01:03:44,840 --> 01:03:49,120 Speaker 1: still it's something that we would have to explain. It's 967 01:03:49,120 --> 01:03:51,320 Speaker 1: a question you have to answer. If you think state 968 01:03:51,400 --> 01:03:58,240 Speaker 1: supported intelligence agencies are just lightly in person stalking someone 969 01:03:58,520 --> 01:04:01,280 Speaker 1: in a way that is meant for that person to 970 01:04:01,320 --> 01:04:05,760 Speaker 1: be aware of, that's that's tough. It's tough to answer that. Now. Now, 971 01:04:05,840 --> 01:04:10,240 Speaker 1: look before we completely discount gang stocking, maybe you are 972 01:04:10,320 --> 01:04:12,960 Speaker 1: feeling that way as we're you know, talking about all 973 01:04:12,960 --> 01:04:15,240 Speaker 1: of this, which we're not, We are not saying that. 974 01:04:15,600 --> 01:04:17,960 Speaker 1: So if you if that's the way you're feeling right now, 975 01:04:18,280 --> 01:04:22,280 Speaker 1: just remember that if if you or someone else truly 976 01:04:22,320 --> 01:04:26,560 Speaker 1: wants to reach someone that believes they are being gang stoked, 977 01:04:27,240 --> 01:04:29,800 Speaker 1: and you know, even if you if it's your intention 978 01:04:29,880 --> 01:04:31,880 Speaker 1: is to tell them, look, it's okay, it's not real 979 01:04:32,240 --> 01:04:36,120 Speaker 1: or something like that, the one of the worst things 980 01:04:36,160 --> 01:04:39,080 Speaker 1: you can do is make someone to feel as though 981 01:04:39,120 --> 01:04:44,200 Speaker 1: they are crazy, right, It's very unproductive. Absolutely, So I 982 01:04:44,480 --> 01:04:48,480 Speaker 1: would say an avenue you know, and this is actually 983 01:04:48,480 --> 01:04:51,640 Speaker 1: stated in the Vice documentary that we we keep referencing 984 01:04:52,160 --> 01:04:57,160 Speaker 1: the avenue rather should be why why do you feel 985 01:04:57,200 --> 01:05:01,000 Speaker 1: like you're worth you know, being per secuted? What's happened 986 01:05:01,040 --> 01:05:04,560 Speaker 1: to you? What's troubling you? You know, like that very personal, like, 987 01:05:04,640 --> 01:05:07,920 Speaker 1: let's let's talk about that, Let's talk about those issues, 988 01:05:08,320 --> 01:05:14,240 Speaker 1: let's start working through those um because the perceived persecution, 989 01:05:14,320 --> 01:05:18,800 Speaker 1: maybe from the outside perhaps is a factor of that 990 01:05:19,360 --> 01:05:21,560 Speaker 1: other things. Just just putting that out there for anybody 991 01:05:21,560 --> 01:05:25,400 Speaker 1: who's extremely skeptical of this, and what do you think 992 01:05:25,560 --> 01:05:28,880 Speaker 1: do you feel like you have encountered something like this 993 01:05:29,520 --> 01:05:32,000 Speaker 1: in your own life, or you know, what, do you 994 01:05:32,040 --> 01:05:36,720 Speaker 1: want to join a protest supporting targeted individuals? Because if 995 01:05:36,760 --> 01:05:39,760 Speaker 1: you have, my good pal Matt has actually found one. 996 01:05:39,840 --> 01:05:43,800 Speaker 1: Is that correct? Yeah, there's a website called targeted Justice 997 01:05:43,960 --> 01:05:45,919 Speaker 1: dot com. If you head over there, you can learn 998 01:05:45,960 --> 01:05:50,320 Speaker 1: about the October protest. It's they're calling the targeted Protests. 999 01:05:51,480 --> 01:05:54,000 Speaker 1: It's going to run in Washington, d C. From October 1000 01:05:54,080 --> 01:05:58,960 Speaker 1: eighteenth this year until the twenty two And uh, it's 1001 01:05:59,400 --> 01:06:02,320 Speaker 1: a register ration is thirty five dollars if you do 1002 01:06:02,400 --> 01:06:05,160 Speaker 1: want to register and go. But but but what do 1003 01:06:05,200 --> 01:06:09,160 Speaker 1: you get a T shirt? You do get a T shirt. 1004 01:06:09,440 --> 01:06:11,080 Speaker 1: It's a free t shirt. I don't think you should 1005 01:06:11,120 --> 01:06:14,680 Speaker 1: call it a free t shirt. It's a twenty five 1006 01:06:14,720 --> 01:06:16,840 Speaker 1: dollar T shirt with a ten dollar registration. It's like 1007 01:06:16,960 --> 01:06:20,520 Speaker 1: complementary valet l A is complementary if you are a 1008 01:06:20,600 --> 01:06:25,320 Speaker 1: jerk and don't tip. Yeah that's true. Uh, but anyway, 1009 01:06:25,360 --> 01:06:28,080 Speaker 1: it's it exists out there, and there are advocates for 1010 01:06:28,320 --> 01:06:30,960 Speaker 1: for you. If you believe you are a targeted individual, 1011 01:06:31,400 --> 01:06:34,959 Speaker 1: you can you can find groups online and maybe even 1012 01:06:35,000 --> 01:06:38,120 Speaker 1: go to targeted Justice dot com. And I'm fairly certain 1013 01:06:38,160 --> 01:06:41,400 Speaker 1: I saw several resources there and you can follow. Yeah, 1014 01:06:41,400 --> 01:06:44,400 Speaker 1: and to be clear, we're making a cheap skate joke 1015 01:06:44,440 --> 01:06:48,600 Speaker 1: about the T shirts stuff. Registration for protests and these 1016 01:06:48,680 --> 01:06:54,120 Speaker 1: kind of organizations typically just goes to keep the organization running. Yes, 1017 01:06:54,240 --> 01:06:58,280 Speaker 1: then we're we're wholeheartedly joking. It's but one thing we're 1018 01:06:58,280 --> 01:07:00,680 Speaker 1: serious about. Before we tell you all the ways to 1019 01:07:00,760 --> 01:07:02,640 Speaker 1: find us on the internet and talk to us and 1020 01:07:02,640 --> 01:07:05,560 Speaker 1: we hope that you engage in one of those platforms 1021 01:07:05,560 --> 01:07:08,440 Speaker 1: with us, before we get to that part, we have 1022 01:07:08,480 --> 01:07:11,680 Speaker 1: to tell you the most important part of this episode, 1023 01:07:11,680 --> 01:07:16,520 Speaker 1: the thing we absolutely one hundred one million percent will 1024 01:07:16,560 --> 01:07:20,480 Speaker 1: never joke about. If you believe that you are a 1025 01:07:20,560 --> 01:07:23,960 Speaker 1: victim of stalking, doesn't matter whether it's from a gang, 1026 01:07:25,200 --> 01:07:30,960 Speaker 1: a significant other, romantic partner, anyone. There are resources, there 1027 01:07:30,960 --> 01:07:35,040 Speaker 1: are people, there are services out there that will help you. 1028 01:07:35,040 --> 01:07:38,520 Speaker 1: You're not hopeless, you're not isolated, you don't have to 1029 01:07:38,520 --> 01:07:43,320 Speaker 1: be alone in this, and a solution exists. Yeah, you can. 1030 01:07:44,000 --> 01:07:47,080 Speaker 1: You can check out the Stalking Prevention Awareness and Resource Center. 1031 01:07:47,480 --> 01:07:50,280 Speaker 1: There is a Victim connect line there. It is one 1032 01:07:50,720 --> 01:07:55,480 Speaker 1: eight five five four eight four to eight four six. 1033 01:07:55,920 --> 01:07:58,480 Speaker 1: You can also check out Safe Horizon. They also have 1034 01:07:58,520 --> 01:08:01,080 Speaker 1: a hotline that is available to any four hours a day, 1035 01:08:01,120 --> 01:08:04,439 Speaker 1: seven days a week, and that number is one eight 1036 01:08:04,720 --> 01:08:09,920 Speaker 1: six six six eight nine four three five seven. Thank 1037 01:08:10,000 --> 01:08:12,360 Speaker 1: you so much for joining us today. We look forward 1038 01:08:12,360 --> 01:08:15,600 Speaker 1: to hearing your thoughts, your experiences. Do you think this 1039 01:08:15,720 --> 01:08:19,160 Speaker 1: is paranoia on the part of people who feel their 1040 01:08:20,080 --> 01:08:24,280 Speaker 1: targeted individuals? Do you think there's more than meets the 1041 01:08:24,320 --> 01:08:26,680 Speaker 1: eye when it comes to these stories, and if so, 1042 01:08:26,800 --> 01:08:29,479 Speaker 1: what is it? What are your personal experiences. You can 1043 01:08:29,479 --> 01:08:31,800 Speaker 1: find us on Facebook, you can find us on Instagram, 1044 01:08:31,920 --> 01:08:34,040 Speaker 1: you can find us on Twitter. We particularly like to 1045 01:08:34,040 --> 01:08:36,599 Speaker 1: recommend Here's where it Gets Crazy, where you can interact 1046 01:08:36,880 --> 01:08:40,719 Speaker 1: firsthand with our favorite part of the show, your fellow listeners. 1047 01:08:41,120 --> 01:08:42,639 Speaker 1: And if you don't want to do that, you can 1048 01:08:42,680 --> 01:08:45,040 Speaker 1: call us at our number. Like we stated at the top, 1049 01:08:45,160 --> 01:08:48,880 Speaker 1: we are one eight three three st d w y 1050 01:08:49,080 --> 01:08:51,800 Speaker 1: t K. Leave a message, tell us your thoughts on 1051 01:08:51,840 --> 01:08:54,759 Speaker 1: any of the things we've discussed today, tell us ideas 1052 01:08:54,800 --> 01:08:57,360 Speaker 1: for new episodes that you want to hear us talk about, 1053 01:08:58,160 --> 01:09:01,439 Speaker 1: or just um, I don't know. You could be silly 1054 01:09:01,439 --> 01:09:04,640 Speaker 1: and lighthearted, that would be cool. Everybody. Everybody needs a 1055 01:09:04,720 --> 01:09:08,240 Speaker 1: break sometimes. And if you are speaking of breaks, if 1056 01:09:08,280 --> 01:09:11,040 Speaker 1: you are taking a break from social media. If you 1057 01:09:11,960 --> 01:09:14,840 Speaker 1: like me hate being on the phone, then we have 1058 01:09:14,960 --> 01:09:17,120 Speaker 1: good news for you. You can send us a good 1059 01:09:17,120 --> 01:09:21,040 Speaker 1: old fashioned email. We are conspiracy at i heart radio 1060 01:09:21,160 --> 01:09:41,880 Speaker 1: dot com stuff they don't want you to know. As 1061 01:09:41,920 --> 01:09:44,439 Speaker 1: a production of i Heeart Radio's How Stuff Works. For 1062 01:09:44,479 --> 01:09:47,479 Speaker 1: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, 1063 01:09:47,560 --> 01:09:50,439 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.