1
00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:07,200
Speaker 1: Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of

2
00:00:07,240 --> 00:00:09,520
Speaker 1: Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the

3
00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:11,800
Speaker 1: Dear Therapist advice column for the Atlantic.

4
00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:15,520
Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,

5
00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,360
Speaker 2: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.

6
00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:20,720
Speaker 2: And this is Dear Therapists.

7
00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:24,159
Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a session so you

8
00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:26,599
Speaker 1: can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help

9
00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:29,600
Speaker 1: other people come to understand themselves better and make changes

10
00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:30,320
Speaker 1: in their lives.

11
00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:33,440
Speaker 2: So sit back and welcome to today's session.

12
00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:37,199
Speaker 1: This week we'll get updates from last season sessions to

13
00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:39,000
Speaker 1: find out how our advice worked out.

14
00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:41,879
Speaker 3: A year later, Guy had said that he didn't think

15
00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:44,240
Speaker 3: I understood how bad it had been, and then Laurie

16
00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:48,479
Speaker 3: actually later on said that oftentimes people are hesitant to

17
00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:53,240
Speaker 3: confront those painful experiences because of what it might say

18
00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:53,880
Speaker 3: about them.

19
00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:56,400
Speaker 1: And I'll be honest, that was a really hard one.

20
00:00:56,680 --> 00:01:00,960
Speaker 3: But getting unstuck is also what's open myself up a

21
00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:05,040
Speaker 3: lot more to finally feeling happy and hopeful.

22
00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:08,880
Speaker 2: First, a quick note, theo therapist is for informational purposes only,

23
00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:12,280
Speaker 2: does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and it's not

24
00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:16,360
Speaker 2: a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always

25
00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:19,360
Speaker 2: seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional, or

26
00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:22,080
Speaker 2: other qualified health provider with any questions you may have

27
00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:26,119
Speaker 2: regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter,

28
00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:28,759
Speaker 2: you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part

29
00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:30,600
Speaker 2: or in full, and we may edit it for length

30
00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:33,120
Speaker 2: and clarity. And the sessions you'll hear all names have

31
00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:35,160
Speaker 2: been changed for the privacy of our fellow travelers.

32
00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:38,400
Speaker 4: Hi, Guy, Hey Laurie.

33
00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:38,920
Speaker 5: So guy.

34
00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:42,520
Speaker 1: I'm really excited because today we're doing another special episode

35
00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:45,880
Speaker 1: where we are hearing updates from our season one sessions

36
00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:49,640
Speaker 1: and the theme of today is freeing yourself.

37
00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:53,920
Speaker 2: That is an important theme and the first person we're

38
00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:58,360
Speaker 2: going to hear from is Elena. Elena, to remind our listeners,

39
00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:00,120
Speaker 2: came to us to get help because she had the

40
00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:04,080
Speaker 2: chronically cheating husband who she had been with for seventy years.

41
00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:06,920
Speaker 2: And by chronically cheating, I literally mean could enter the

42
00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:10,480
Speaker 2: Cheating Olympics with how much cheating was going on.

43
00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:13,320
Speaker 1: Yes, I remember that they would go to a therapy

44
00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:14,880
Speaker 1: session and he would say, Okay, I'm not going to

45
00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:17,359
Speaker 1: cheat and then within twenty four hours he would be

46
00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:18,079
Speaker 1: cheating again.

47
00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:21,720
Speaker 2: Right, So let's get a reminder of what was going

48
00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:23,400
Speaker 2: on for Elena in last year's session.

49
00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:28,880
Speaker 6: So it has come out that the relations have been

50
00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:33,160
Speaker 6: with men. However, my husband is very closed off. He

51
00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:36,360
Speaker 6: kind of just wants it to go away. He doesn't

52
00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:39,919
Speaker 6: want to discuss it in detail. He acknowledges that it happened,

53
00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:42,960
Speaker 6: yet he doesn't want to talk about it. He just

54
00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:45,240
Speaker 6: kind of wants to forget about it. Then there's that

55
00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:48,760
Speaker 6: wall built, that avoidancy of him not talking about it,

56
00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:54,880
Speaker 6: shutting down, refusing to discuss it, and eventually he'll leave

57
00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:59,240
Speaker 6: the home or the other side where he's angry and

58
00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:02,399
Speaker 6: super distant. The other side of it is when we're

59
00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:06,520
Speaker 6: in therapy, it's like a twitch, like he'll talk about

60
00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:11,280
Speaker 6: it and he'll say he feels attacked, or he feels

61
00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:17,160
Speaker 6: like he's disgusting, or he feels that I find him disgusting,

62
00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:23,120
Speaker 6: kind of working through how he feels.

63
00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:26,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was not a good situation. So I am

64
00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:30,519
Speaker 2: very curious to hear where Elena is today.

65
00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:32,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's take a listen.

66
00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:36,000
Speaker 5: My name is Elena, and I called and spoke with

67
00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:41,200
Speaker 5: Lauri and Guy in regards to my husband who was

68
00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:46,840
Speaker 5: having affairs, and I was also stationed overseas, so I

69
00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:51,440
Speaker 5: was isolated away from any family and friends and really

70
00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:56,680
Speaker 5: any support system to confide in and deal with, you know,

71
00:03:56,880 --> 00:04:02,680
Speaker 5: all that which was going on. So since I've spoken

72
00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:06,880
Speaker 5: with them, it's been a little over a year. My

73
00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:10,760
Speaker 5: husband and I are no longer together. We've separated officially

74
00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:13,119
Speaker 5: just a few months after I spoke with Gloria Guy,

75
00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:17,920
Speaker 5: and then the divorce was finalized in October of twenty twenty.

76
00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:19,599
Speaker 5: So is pretty quick.

77
00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:23,320
Speaker 2: Wow, that is very quick. That's less than a year.

78
00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:25,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, And on the one hand, I'm a little bit

79
00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:28,200
Speaker 1: surprised that it was that quick because she was so

80
00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:33,600
Speaker 1: reluctant to make a move when we talked. And I

81
00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:37,880
Speaker 1: think it's interesting because you and I felt like he's

82
00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:41,000
Speaker 1: not changing. She's been through so much with him, and

83
00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:44,200
Speaker 1: he is not interested in changing. So sometimes people say,

84
00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:47,760
Speaker 1: why won't this person change even though they say they

85
00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:49,760
Speaker 1: want to change. I think he knew he didn't want

86
00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:51,640
Speaker 1: to change, but he wasn't willing to say that to

87
00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:54,279
Speaker 1: her because of the consequence, which is that she would

88
00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:59,440
Speaker 1: probably leave. And sometimes therapists, you know, we don't tell

89
00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:01,800
Speaker 1: people what to stay in marriages or leave, but when

90
00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:05,400
Speaker 1: they're so problematic and there is so much suffering, we

91
00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:09,760
Speaker 1: hope that someone will come to that conclusion to save themselves.

92
00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:12,359
Speaker 1: And when Elena came to us, she seemed clear that

93
00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:14,960
Speaker 1: she was done, but she also wasn't ready to move

94
00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:18,560
Speaker 1: forward because I think she had so much grieving to

95
00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:19,240
Speaker 1: be done.

96
00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:23,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, we often don't say to someone, hey, you should

97
00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:26,679
Speaker 2: really leave this marriage, but we will leave a trail

98
00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:30,240
Speaker 2: of bread crumbs leading them to that conclusion if it's warranted.

99
00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:32,520
Speaker 2: In this case, it wasn't even bread crumbs. Loaves of

100
00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:36,000
Speaker 2: bread led a trail to like, hey, Elena, get out.

101
00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:38,719
Speaker 1: And I want to be clear that we aren't there

102
00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:42,039
Speaker 1: to decide for people what they should do. So when

103
00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:44,960
Speaker 1: we say we leave the bread crumbs, it's not as

104
00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:47,680
Speaker 1: though we think we know best for them, because there

105
00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:51,440
Speaker 1: are people who they would rather be in a situation

106
00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:53,680
Speaker 1: that maybe you or I guy would say, oh that's

107
00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:56,120
Speaker 1: not for me, but it is for them, and even

108
00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:59,359
Speaker 1: though it's not ideal, it's problematic, they would rather be

109
00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:02,960
Speaker 1: in that for whatever reason. So we want them to

110
00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:05,640
Speaker 1: ask the important questions of themselves so they can come

111
00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:07,800
Speaker 1: to their own conclusion about what they want to do,

112
00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:09,920
Speaker 1: and that's what I think the breadcrumbs are.

113
00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:13,159
Speaker 2: The thing is about Elena is that she actually knew

114
00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:16,679
Speaker 2: that this was really bad for her, that he wasn't changing,

115
00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:19,640
Speaker 2: that this wasn't working. The thing she really struggled to

116
00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:24,000
Speaker 2: do was to cut the cord and make the decision,

117
00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:27,640
Speaker 2: and given how quickly the divorce was finalized after speaking

118
00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:30,120
Speaker 2: with her, just months after we spoke with her, I

119
00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:33,160
Speaker 2: am so curious to hear what happened.

120
00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:35,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I am too.

121
00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:42,200
Speaker 5: So what happened is so we were living in Italy

122
00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:49,159
Speaker 5: overseas and March then my husband got called back to

123
00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:54,400
Speaker 5: the States. Well, I and his children from a previous

124
00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:57,200
Speaker 5: marriage were left in Italy. When he went back to

125
00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:01,599
Speaker 5: the States and the country we went into complete shutdown.

126
00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:05,640
Speaker 5: We were unable to leave the country and get back home,

127
00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:12,840
Speaker 5: and that just increased the stress in our relationship at

128
00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:15,320
Speaker 5: the time, but also just me being the only adult

129
00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:19,120
Speaker 5: in the household with three kids depending on me. I'm

130
00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:22,400
Speaker 5: not the biological mother, but you know, the step parent. There.

131
00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:29,600
Speaker 5: Further complicated things were my husband wasn't really communicating during

132
00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:33,520
Speaker 5: this time. He wasn't calling us on the phone, he

133
00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:40,960
Speaker 5: wouldn't answer I don't know messages. Really really kind of

134
00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:45,240
Speaker 5: left alone, you know, with the stresses of going to

135
00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:49,840
Speaker 5: school online and three different kids in three different grades

136
00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:53,960
Speaker 5: and three different schools. You know, I was really overwhelmed.

137
00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:57,560
Speaker 5: That was something that my husband couldn't be empathetic about,

138
00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:02,240
Speaker 5: and so that really hurt the marriage further.

139
00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:06,760
Speaker 2: So Wow, and there are a couple of Wow moments

140
00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:09,920
Speaker 2: for me, I guess the biggest one is that we

141
00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:13,320
Speaker 2: didn't know there were kids in the picture. Now, in

142
00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:15,920
Speaker 2: regular psychotherapy, we get to ask a lot of background

143
00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:19,400
Speaker 2: questions and we will find out very soon if there

144
00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:23,080
Speaker 2: were children or any other people that are relevant in

145
00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:26,480
Speaker 2: the picture. But in the sessions we do for the podcast,

146
00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:29,800
Speaker 2: we only have a very short amount of time, and

147
00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:32,720
Speaker 2: there was nothing in what she was telling us to

148
00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:36,120
Speaker 2: indicate that there were children there, and certainly that there

149
00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:39,560
Speaker 2: were his children from a previous marriage, and even more

150
00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:43,520
Speaker 2: so that she was a big part of taking care

151
00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:46,800
Speaker 2: of them. That is a big surprise for me.

152
00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:49,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is such a surprise that we had that

153
00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:52,679
Speaker 1: entire session with her and not want did it come

154
00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:57,959
Speaker 1: up that he had kids from another marriage. And it's

155
00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:01,880
Speaker 1: not uncommon for people to leave things out in sessions,

156
00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:05,440
Speaker 1: even when we are seeing them for psychotherapy. And I

157
00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:08,840
Speaker 1: think that the reason that people leave things out is

158
00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:13,160
Speaker 1: because if they bring something up, it forces them to

159
00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:15,640
Speaker 1: face a truth that they might not be ready to.

160
00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:19,760
Speaker 1: And so for Elena, if she had added this information that, oh,

161
00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:22,240
Speaker 1: by the way, not only is he chronically cheating on

162
00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:24,680
Speaker 1: me and lying to me and gaslighting me and calling

163
00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:28,880
Speaker 1: me crazy, but also I'm taking care of his three kids,

164
00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:31,560
Speaker 1: And if she had added that, it would be even

165
00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:35,680
Speaker 1: more clear how untenable the situation was at a point

166
00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:39,000
Speaker 1: when she wasn't quite ready to face it entirely.

167
00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:42,640
Speaker 2: And the fact that while he was in America and

168
00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:45,920
Speaker 2: Elena was taking care of his three kids, he wasn't

169
00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:48,360
Speaker 2: reaching out even to be in touch with his kids,

170
00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:52,360
Speaker 2: so he was abandoning the kids as well, just shows

171
00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:58,040
Speaker 2: such a complete disregard for his family relationships and how

172
00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:02,560
Speaker 2: much he was incredibly focused on himself and on what

173
00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:06,120
Speaker 2: he wanted and needed in that time and truly shut

174
00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:10,359
Speaker 2: everyone else out, including apparently Elena, not just Elena.

175
00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:13,880
Speaker 1: And even then, even with the anxiety that she must

176
00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:18,040
Speaker 1: have been experiencing to be with his kids and to

177
00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:21,640
Speaker 1: be so far away, and to not know what was

178
00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:23,640
Speaker 1: going on with him and to not be in any

179
00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:29,559
Speaker 1: contact with him. That just incredibly anxiety provoking, and still

180
00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:32,600
Speaker 1: she was not ready to leave. So let's hear what

181
00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:33,280
Speaker 1: happened next.

182
00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:38,160
Speaker 5: And then, you know, I found out that while he's

183
00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:41,800
Speaker 5: in America and I'm in Italy with his kids, he's

184
00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:44,400
Speaker 5: having affairs still, and he was open to me about

185
00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:48,000
Speaker 5: that that he was seeing someone and not just one time,

186
00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:52,720
Speaker 5: but multiple times. So when it was time that we

187
00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:56,640
Speaker 5: could finally leave the country to come back to America,

188
00:10:56,800 --> 00:10:59,480
Speaker 5: I asked him not to pick me up at the airport.

189
00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:05,920
Speaker 5: Needed some time to myself to kind of really decide

190
00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:08,840
Speaker 5: if I wanted to move forward. So I think I

191
00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:14,880
Speaker 5: landed on a Tuesday, and then on that Thursday is

192
00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:17,400
Speaker 5: when he told me he no longer wanted to work

193
00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:21,760
Speaker 5: on the relationship. And that's something that I struggle with

194
00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:29,120
Speaker 5: because I know that our marriage ended because he chose

195
00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:36,200
Speaker 5: to walk away, and I don't know if that's something

196
00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:41,400
Speaker 5: that I could have done eventually or maybe in six months,

197
00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:46,360
Speaker 5: maybe in a year, maybe in three years. It's something

198
00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:49,480
Speaker 5: that I kind of struggle with, knowing what is in

199
00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:53,480
Speaker 5: my past or what is going on internally that made

200
00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:57,400
Speaker 5: me stay in that relationship for as long as I did,

201
00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:01,440
Speaker 5: with as much toxicity and it that there was. You know,

202
00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:06,440
Speaker 5: it was definitely something that needed to happen, and I

203
00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:10,400
Speaker 5: think the timing was well when it happened. It was

204
00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:13,800
Speaker 5: just I wasn't there yet. I wasn't ready to walk

205
00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:16,880
Speaker 5: away yet, and it was it was very difficult for me,

206
00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:20,000
Speaker 5: So I can't take the credit of walking away from

207
00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:25,080
Speaker 5: that relationship. But now I am understanding that it needed

208
00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:27,160
Speaker 5: to happen and it was for the best.

209
00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:31,920
Speaker 1: So here again, even with him not being a real

210
00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:35,400
Speaker 1: partner and communicating during COVID while she's alone with his

211
00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:39,880
Speaker 1: three kids and telling her he was sleeping with other people,

212
00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:43,600
Speaker 1: Elena still wasn't ready to leave him, and it's going

213
00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:46,640
Speaker 1: to be very important for her to understand why that is.

214
00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:50,520
Speaker 1: I'm glad that she's asking herself that question. I remember

215
00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:53,400
Speaker 1: in our session she mentioned that her mother had been

216
00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:57,040
Speaker 1: cheated on as well, and so I'm guessing that there's

217
00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:01,280
Speaker 1: some intergenerational pattern or tree trauma that's being played out

218
00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:03,160
Speaker 1: here that she's going to have to understand better.

219
00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:07,000
Speaker 2: I think part of why Elena really couldn't leave and

220
00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:10,280
Speaker 2: I certainly understand why it's upsetting for her that, given everything,

221
00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:11,960
Speaker 2: he was the one to break up with her. But

222
00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:15,840
Speaker 2: when you live with somebody who's gaslighting you so profoundly

223
00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:20,520
Speaker 2: and for such a long time, doing outrageous, outrageous things,

224
00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:24,400
Speaker 2: and telling you that your reactions are outrageous or out

225
00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:27,640
Speaker 2: of control or you're the crazy one, it makes you

226
00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:32,600
Speaker 2: lose touch with your internal compass. You no longer know

227
00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:36,000
Speaker 2: what's up and what's down, on what's right and what's wrong.

228
00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:38,520
Speaker 2: And even if you think you're justified, you're just not

229
00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:41,679
Speaker 2: sure because all you hear is that's an overreaction, you're

230
00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:44,240
Speaker 2: out of control, you're crazy. And I think over the

231
00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:48,240
Speaker 2: years what happened to Elena is she just lost all perspective. Now,

232
00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:50,920
Speaker 2: we gave her an assignment to help get some of

233
00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:54,240
Speaker 2: that back, but I think that loss for her was profound.

234
00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:58,800
Speaker 2: She simply couldn't trust herself, and she didn't trust herself

235
00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:02,640
Speaker 2: to make that decision, especially when she was still isolated

236
00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:06,040
Speaker 2: in a foreign country. I think she lost all ability

237
00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:09,800
Speaker 2: to be in touch with what reality is and what's reasonable.

238
00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:13,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, the isolation was a big part of it, and

239
00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:16,360
Speaker 1: that's why we had her tell her friends what was

240
00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:18,800
Speaker 1: going on, so she could get a reality check on that.

241
00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:21,000
Speaker 1: And we also had her write down every incident that

242
00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:23,480
Speaker 1: happened so that she could see it on the page,

243
00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:26,680
Speaker 1: which also helps with reality checking. But then you still

244
00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:29,200
Speaker 1: have him coming in saying, Oh, you're getting upset about

245
00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:33,840
Speaker 1: this thing. You're overreacting what's happening. You're crazy, And you

246
00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:36,360
Speaker 1: know that goes on for years and years, and it

247
00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:39,920
Speaker 1: becomes very hard to locate your internal compass.

248
00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:43,040
Speaker 2: And I guess in that way, his leaving was a

249
00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:45,360
Speaker 2: gift for help because she wasn't able to and maybe

250
00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:47,360
Speaker 2: she would have become more able to once she got back,

251
00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:51,360
Speaker 2: but him leaving and doing it so abruptly and so

252
00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:55,400
Speaker 2: much in line with his other inconsiderate, really selfish actions,

253
00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:59,320
Speaker 2: I think was nonetheless a gift. Because she wasn't able

254
00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:01,560
Speaker 2: to push the check button, he pushed it for her.

255
00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:04,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think she needs to reframe it that way.

256
00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:06,120
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people feel like, I've been

257
00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:08,560
Speaker 1: through all of this with you, and you're the one

258
00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:11,880
Speaker 1: who's dumping me, which is I think what she kind

259
00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:14,080
Speaker 1: of grapples with a little bit here, and what I

260
00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:18,280
Speaker 1: want to say to Elena is this absolutely was a

261
00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:21,800
Speaker 1: gift to her. I hope that she will consider it

262
00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:25,720
Speaker 1: that and especially moving forward when she experiences and tastes

263
00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:28,240
Speaker 1: her freedom, I think she's going to see it more

264
00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:29,200
Speaker 1: and more as a gift.

265
00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:32,040
Speaker 2: So let's here's the more. There's more from Elena Lettier.

266
00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:33,200
Speaker 2: What happens next?

267
00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:39,040
Speaker 5: So yeah, so he still oversees and I am a

268
00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:42,640
Speaker 5: stateside in a city with friends and family. When I

269
00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:45,360
Speaker 5: got back to the States, my family and friends threw

270
00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:48,720
Speaker 5: me a big welcome home party. I just broke down

271
00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:51,040
Speaker 5: in tears with the amount of love that was shut

272
00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:54,640
Speaker 5: on me. They're at that party. Since all of this,

273
00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:58,960
Speaker 5: I've met someone super wonderful and great. They've been really

274
00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:02,640
Speaker 5: patient with mine a healing process of everything.

275
00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:06,239
Speaker 1: I love hearing this because once you leave a situation

276
00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:08,800
Speaker 1: like that, you often find the people who are there

277
00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:11,800
Speaker 1: for you and who want to meet your needs. So

278
00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:15,720
Speaker 1: that great reception and homecoming from family and friends and

279
00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:19,560
Speaker 1: now a new boyfriend who's there for her and having

280
00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:23,760
Speaker 1: that understanding with her healing process, I'm just so delighted

281
00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:24,280
Speaker 1: to hear this.

282
00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:27,640
Speaker 2: And I think it's not a coincidence that once she

283
00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:32,520
Speaker 2: was able to receive in person and true love and

284
00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:36,480
Speaker 2: care from the people around her. Then it opened her

285
00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:39,320
Speaker 2: up and allowed her to receive it from a romantic

286
00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:40,120
Speaker 2: partner as well.

287
00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:43,280
Speaker 1: That's right. There's a two way dynamic going on, which

288
00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:47,480
Speaker 1: is not only when you're in that situation can you

289
00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:50,800
Speaker 1: not see things clearly, but you're not open to the

290
00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:53,800
Speaker 1: kind of person who's going to give you what you

291
00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:56,080
Speaker 1: want and what you need. And once she was out

292
00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:59,359
Speaker 1: of that situation, that opened her up to the possibility

293
00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:02,240
Speaker 1: of something new, and Elena had a little bit more

294
00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:03,400
Speaker 1: to say. Let's hear what that is.

295
00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:07,679
Speaker 5: Some of the things that I took away were at

296
00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:11,440
Speaker 5: one point they said that I was having these big

297
00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:19,520
Speaker 5: emotional reactions to traumatic events, and that validated my feelings

298
00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:23,679
Speaker 5: of like, yeah, these are big traumatic events, and you know,

299
00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:28,480
Speaker 5: having an emotional reaction is okay. Because at that point,

300
00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:32,160
Speaker 5: I'd been called crazy. I'd been called out of control

301
00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:35,320
Speaker 5: so often that I felt that, well, maybe I am irrational,

302
00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:38,520
Speaker 5: maybe I am crazy. But when they kind of said that,

303
00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:40,600
Speaker 5: that really helped validate my feelings.

304
00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:41,480
Speaker 7: You know.

305
00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:44,560
Speaker 5: Also, with my husband calling me out of control all

306
00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:48,080
Speaker 5: the time, you're out of control, you know, guy said, well,

307
00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:52,040
Speaker 5: aren't his actions out of control? And so that really

308
00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:54,680
Speaker 5: validated for me those feelings.

309
00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:58,480
Speaker 1: Yes, this is exactly what we were talking about. I'm

310
00:17:58,520 --> 00:17:59,760
Speaker 1: so glad she can see that.

311
00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:03,080
Speaker 2: Absolutely. That's really good to hear that she's clear about

312
00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:06,120
Speaker 2: those things. So there's just one last piece I think

313
00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:08,760
Speaker 2: that we haven't heard yet. Let's hear the end and

314
00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:10,280
Speaker 2: have things are really in now.

315
00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:15,000
Speaker 5: The other thing that I've done, I guess, is create

316
00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:20,880
Speaker 5: boundaries in my life and other relationships. So with family

317
00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:26,159
Speaker 5: members that I needed to have boundaries, and then also

318
00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:31,959
Speaker 5: with friendships even I've had to put some boundaries. And

319
00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:37,240
Speaker 5: then even as far as getting back into dating after

320
00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:41,720
Speaker 5: the divorce, I would see those all too familiar red

321
00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:46,560
Speaker 5: flags and know like, okay, I've been here, done that. No,

322
00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:50,359
Speaker 5: thank you, this is a boundary for me, and this

323
00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:51,440
Speaker 5: isn't acceptable.

324
00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:54,560
Speaker 8: So that's really you know.

325
00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:56,920
Speaker 5: I can't thank Glory and Guy enough for what they've

326
00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:00,880
Speaker 5: done in my life and hopefully my story has had

327
00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:06,120
Speaker 5: some impact on someone else's life. And I just really

328
00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:11,600
Speaker 5: appreciate this avenue here for people to listen or to

329
00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:15,120
Speaker 5: hear from you guys in something that they might really

330
00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:17,720
Speaker 5: be struggling with. So thank you so much, Lori and Guy.

331
00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:21,240
Speaker 1: Right so here again once you become aware of what

332
00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:24,040
Speaker 1: you need, you feel empowered to ask for that in

333
00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:27,959
Speaker 1: relationships going forward, and you won't settle for less. And

334
00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:30,879
Speaker 1: she found someone who seems to meet those desires that

335
00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:34,760
Speaker 1: she has about how she wants to be treated, about honesty,

336
00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:39,760
Speaker 1: about presence, about connection. And the reason that we do

337
00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:43,040
Speaker 1: this podcast is that we feel that each person's story

338
00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:47,400
Speaker 1: in session does impact someone else's life. And there are

339
00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:51,280
Speaker 1: many Elena's out there who have been lied to, are gaslighted,

340
00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:55,040
Speaker 1: and we really hope that this session is helpful to them.

341
00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:58,160
Speaker 2: So thank you Elena for coming on and sharing your

342
00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:00,840
Speaker 2: story with us and with our listeners. And you know

343
00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:03,880
Speaker 2: that exercise we gave you to think about a good

344
00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:06,960
Speaker 2: life you might have in five years time. We actually

345
00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:07,960
Speaker 2: think it might be quite good.

346
00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:08,280
Speaker 9: Now.

347
00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:15,199
Speaker 2: Absolutely, you're listening to Deo Therapists from iHeartRadio.

348
00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:17,240
Speaker 9: We'll be back after a quick break.

349
00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:25,640
Speaker 1: I'm Lori Gottlieb and.

350
00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:27,840
Speaker 9: I'm Guy Wench and this is Deo Therapist.

351
00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:35,000
Speaker 1: So let's hear our next update. Our next fellow traveler

352
00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:37,560
Speaker 1: from season one also had to free herself, but this

353
00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:39,760
Speaker 1: time it was from the pressure that she was putting

354
00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:42,439
Speaker 1: on herself. And I love this one because Libby was

355
00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:45,680
Speaker 1: only sixteen, but she knew something had to change.

356
00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:49,280
Speaker 2: And I love it because that same insight took me

357
00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:51,920
Speaker 2: probably a couple of decades longer than Libby to figure

358
00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:55,879
Speaker 2: out me too. So just as a reminder, Libby was

359
00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:59,159
Speaker 2: a junior in high school and she was putting a

360
00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:03,240
Speaker 2: lot of pressure on herself to do super well, so

361
00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:05,560
Speaker 2: much so that she really didn't have much of life

362
00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:08,120
Speaker 2: and she was feeling very stressed out. And we helped

363
00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:13,280
Speaker 2: Leby see that real success means having ambition but also

364
00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:13,960
Speaker 2: having a life.

365
00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:19,520
Speaker 10: My course load is pretty heavy. I'm on the leadership

366
00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:23,040
Speaker 10: I think five different clubs at my school, and two

367
00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:25,760
Speaker 10: of them are extremely prominent, so I usually have about

368
00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:28,800
Speaker 10: like three meetings a week with that, and I also

369
00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:34,119
Speaker 10: volunteer at the food bank eight hours every Saturday. I

370
00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:36,040
Speaker 10: really do try to like put a lot of effort

371
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:40,560
Speaker 10: into my school work. I do feel like the way

372
00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:44,520
Speaker 10: that like the college system and everything is kind of

373
00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,359
Speaker 10: set up is that you kind of have to go

374
00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:49,440
Speaker 10: through this in your teenage years, like there's not really

375
00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:52,800
Speaker 10: much time for taking it easier, just like taking a

376
00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:55,760
Speaker 10: step back, and especially because I know so many other

377
00:21:55,840 --> 00:22:00,360
Speaker 10: kids are competing It's just I do think I'd saying

378
00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:02,119
Speaker 10: that makes me happy. I just I don't know if

379
00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:04,920
Speaker 10: I'm able to do that to reach my goals.

380
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:10,120
Speaker 1: She had put a lot of our advice into practice

381
00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:12,399
Speaker 1: that very first week and seemed to be doing better.

382
00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:15,320
Speaker 1: I'm curious to hear how she's doing now about a

383
00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:15,879
Speaker 1: year later.

384
00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:18,960
Speaker 8: Hi, guys, it's Libby here.

385
00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:21,520
Speaker 10: I just finished up junior year, and I can definitely

386
00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:24,879
Speaker 10: see improvement in myself, not just in grades in my resume,

387
00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:27,960
Speaker 10: but ultimately in my sense of self. School did get

388
00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:30,000
Speaker 10: a lot more stressful, and I did of those weeks.

389
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:30,400
Speaker 8: Of crunch time.

390
00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:32,720
Speaker 10: But the biggest change I made was just letting my

391
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:35,760
Speaker 10: brain chill out by scheduling and time to relax.

392
00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:36,240
Speaker 8: None mind.

393
00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:39,159
Speaker 10: I taught myself that this rest was a given, not

394
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:42,120
Speaker 10: something I should feel guilty about. I tried to listen

395
00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:44,040
Speaker 10: to my body in my brain, and I recognized and

396
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:47,440
Speaker 10: I was just tired and needed that rest. I began

397
00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:49,880
Speaker 10: treating myself like a friend who I wanted to help succeed.

398
00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:53,920
Speaker 2: Wow. That was great to hear. There's so many key

399
00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:57,200
Speaker 2: elements that are important in what Libby said. First of all,

400
00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:00,440
Speaker 2: she switched from self criticism when she felt the urge

401
00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:03,359
Speaker 2: to take a break to self compassion, which was a

402
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:06,040
Speaker 2: very important move because then she's able to actually take

403
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:08,520
Speaker 2: a break and not feel bad about it. She's also

404
00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:11,159
Speaker 2: paying attention to her body and how she's feeling, and

405
00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:13,000
Speaker 2: she's using that to signal her when she might need

406
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:15,440
Speaker 2: to take a break, which is also another great move.

407
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:18,199
Speaker 2: And the last thing, which I think is crucial for

408
00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:22,800
Speaker 2: so many people, is she's scheduling downtime. And for people

409
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:24,679
Speaker 2: who have a lot on their plate, who tend to

410
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:28,359
Speaker 2: be busy and overstressed, if you don't schedule downtime, if

411
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:31,639
Speaker 2: you don't schedule me time or we time, it often

412
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:32,600
Speaker 2: just doesn't happen.

413
00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:34,080
Speaker 8: That's right.

414
00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:37,959
Speaker 1: And she also reframed downtime as essential as opposed to

415
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,200
Speaker 1: wasting time. So I think before she felt like, oh

416
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:44,359
Speaker 1: if I do something that is relaxing, that I'm not

417
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,800
Speaker 1: being productive, And you think that that reframe helped to

418
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:51,400
Speaker 1: minimize her guilt around taking the downtime and also being

419
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:53,840
Speaker 1: able to benefit from it. And this is something that

420
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,160
Speaker 1: highly driven people tend to struggle with.

421
00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:58,879
Speaker 2: Absolutely they do, and I'm one of them, and we

422
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,120
Speaker 2: all need those reminders we do.

423
00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:04,680
Speaker 1: We do sometimes here's a confession. Sometimes I actually listened

424
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,359
Speaker 1: to this episode because I need the reminders myself in

425
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:08,080
Speaker 1: my own life.

426
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:10,480
Speaker 2: Right we called her Libby two. Libby Too was the

427
00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:13,920
Speaker 2: version that actually was more integrated and recognized the importance

428
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:16,320
Speaker 2: of having a personal life. And sometimes I'll say to myself,

429
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,240
Speaker 2: don't be Guy one, be Guy too. Right now, you

430
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:19,840
Speaker 2: know and.

431
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:23,080
Speaker 4: Schedules same.

432
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:26,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's see what else we can done from Libby.

433
00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:29,600
Speaker 10: My life was a lot of school and extracurriculars, yes,

434
00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:31,600
Speaker 10: but I can also pinpoint a lot of fun in

435
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,400
Speaker 10: the last six months, dinner with an old friend or

436
00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:36,760
Speaker 10: a day out getting ice cream and driving with my

437
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:40,440
Speaker 10: little brother. I feel more outgoing, more capable, and more

438
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,080
Speaker 10: nuanced as an individual after making my life less black

439
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:45,200
Speaker 10: and white of things I had to do and making

440
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:48,359
Speaker 10: it more contechnicolor of things I wanted to do. Instead

441
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:50,840
Speaker 10: of viewing this practice as self indulgent, I thought of

442
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:54,040
Speaker 10: Luring Guy's advice that this balance was the most important thing.

443
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 10: Thank you so much, Louriing Guy. I'm going to try

444
00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,840
Speaker 10: and continue this path. I lot my best be shine through.

445
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:02,920
Speaker 11: Well.

446
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,600
Speaker 1: The best Libby is definitely shining through. And I love

447
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,760
Speaker 1: that she mentioned the word fun, because I think so

448
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:12,640
Speaker 1: many of us, as we get older, forget to have fun,

449
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 1: We forget that fun is an essential part of our lives.

450
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:17,439
Speaker 1: We think I don't have time for that, and we

451
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 1: think it's optional. But it's not optional. And so I

452
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:24,120
Speaker 1: think when we suggest a different perspective and a way

453
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:28,119
Speaker 1: to reframe something, we can tell when somebody really gets it.

454
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:31,000
Speaker 1: And it was clear in this episode that Libby really

455
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 1: got it. She said, you know, it clicked, And once

456
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:35,439
Speaker 1: it does, then someone can make a whole bunch of

457
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:38,639
Speaker 1: meaningful changes in lots of areas of their lives. And

458
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:41,240
Speaker 1: you can see that Libby did that. And I want

459
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:46,680
Speaker 1: our listeners to think this week about fun and when

460
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:48,719
Speaker 1: they have fun, and if they're not having fun, what

461
00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:50,359
Speaker 1: can they do to have fun? And how can they

462
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:52,720
Speaker 1: do it in the way that we suggested to Libby.

463
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:55,240
Speaker 1: So it's not that you're dropping all of your responsibilities.

464
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,040
Speaker 1: It's that one of your responsibilities is to have fun.

465
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:00,119
Speaker 1: And I hope they'll re listen to the episode.

466
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,960
Speaker 2: That's so important because while they're people who throughout their

467
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:08,280
Speaker 2: lives can have fun, naturally, most of us do get busy,

468
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:10,879
Speaker 2: do have responsibilities, and there has to be a certain

469
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:14,879
Speaker 2: intentionality about clearing the space and having the mindset for

470
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:17,879
Speaker 2: just letting loose and having fun. And I am so

471
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:21,160
Speaker 2: glad that Livy has that in mind. And I urge

472
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,280
Speaker 2: all our listeners who have high pressure or high stressed

473
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 2: situations or lots of responsibilities to really make time and

474
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:33,159
Speaker 2: have the intention to truly have fun.

475
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,080
Speaker 1: And while we're talking about fun, our next update of

476
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:45,239
Speaker 1: a fellow traveler from season one is from Liam, and

477
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:49,240
Speaker 1: we really wanted Liam to have fun at his sister's wedding,

478
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 1: but he also was really struggling with this concept of freedom.

479
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 2: Liam was transitioning from female to male, but he was

480
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:01,560
Speaker 2: very early on in his transition, and it brought up

481
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 2: the question of what does he wear to his sister's

482
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:08,640
Speaker 2: wedding because it had gotten postponed because of COVID and

483
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 2: was supposed to happen before the transition began, but now

484
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 2: that it had, and now that it was still very early,

485
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 2: what does he wear that would make him comfortable that

486
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 2: his sister would be comfortable with. And that was the

487
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 2: conflict that he came.

488
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 1: To us with, right, so let's hear what was happening

489
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:25,600
Speaker 1: with him last year.

490
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:29,880
Speaker 7: As much as my family is very accepting. I think

491
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,919
Speaker 7: that this issue really it shows that they aren't as

492
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 7: accepting as they think they are. Like my mother will

493
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:40,679
Speaker 7: go march for gay rights and all of these things,

494
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 7: but you know, as soon as her son comes out

495
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 7: to her that he is part of the transgender community,

496
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,639
Speaker 7: that's where issues start arising. And then it's like, Okay,

497
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:50,879
Speaker 7: well maybe you're not as accepting as you think that

498
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 7: you are. And I think that that is showing a

499
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 7: little bit. With my sister, she has traditional values. It's

500
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 7: harder for me to fit those traditional values and still

501
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 7: be true to myself.

502
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 1: So let me ask you this, what would it look

503
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 1: like to be true to yourself at Sarah's wedding?

504
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:15,240
Speaker 7: What would make me feel comfortable? Would be wearing men's

505
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:17,960
Speaker 7: formal wear. The day of her wedding, I will be

506
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:24,119
Speaker 7: taking my seventh testosterone shot, So my mind is somewhere,

507
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 7: and then my outer appearance is I feel is being

508
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:29,360
Speaker 7: stuffed back into a closet.

509
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 1: A lot of people said to us after they heard

510
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 1: this episode that even though a lot of the situations

511
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,800
Speaker 1: in our podcast might not apply to them, that what

512
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 1: they heard in the podcast applied so much to their

513
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 1: own lives. So let's hear what happened with Liam, because

514
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 1: I think that it's going to be really relevant to

515
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 1: people who are both in Liam's situation and people who

516
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 1: maybe need to free themselves, both externally and internally in

517
00:28:58,200 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 1: various ways.

518
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 4: Hy Laurie Guy.

519
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 12: When I first came on the show, I think I

520
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 12: was about one month on testosterone. Now I'm about eight

521
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 12: months on testosterone. I'm constantly feeling better and better about

522
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 12: myself every day, emotionally and physically, so that's been really nice.

523
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 12: I do have more trans friends as well. It's really

524
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 12: nice having friends within my community that can really understand

525
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 12: the problems that I face. Just really nice to be

526
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 12: able to talk to somebody. And I also am pretty

527
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:39,960
Speaker 12: much out at work. Everybody pretty much uses my real name,

528
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 12: which is really nice.

529
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 4: So I did follow the advice.

530
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 12: The first bit I've actually failed to mention when I

531
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 12: did my initial callback, which was to sit down with

532
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:53,480
Speaker 12: Sarah and just say, hey, I am really excited for you.

533
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:56,960
Speaker 12: Sorry if that got lost in translation. The outfit is

534
00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 12: not the focus. The focus is celebrating you and your

535
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 12: husband on your day. We did have that talk, and

536
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 12: I think it was a big sigh of relief for her.

537
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:10,959
Speaker 12: I think it was really great that you guys pointed

538
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 12: out that she probably needed to hear that, because I

539
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 12: think she really did.

540
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:19,239
Speaker 2: So I'm smiling because what Liam was referring to is

541
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:23,480
Speaker 2: that his homework was to talk to his sister about

542
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 2: what he would wear, but to tell her that he

543
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,480
Speaker 2: was actually really excited about the wedding and excited for

544
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 2: her and all that stuff. And in the voicemail he

545
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 2: left us with the update that was included in that episode,

546
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 2: he forgot to mention that he did have that part

547
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 2: of the conversation, and he felt so bad about it.

548
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:42,480
Speaker 2: He reached out to me on social media and said,

549
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 2: you know, I did tell her I was excited. I

550
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 2: did tell her that was the most important thing, and

551
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 2: I didn't mention that, And people are going to think

552
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 2: I'm terrible, and I'm like, no, no, no, I think

553
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 2: people know you really care about your sister. But I'm

554
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 2: so glad we gave him this opportunity now to correct

555
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 2: the record and let people know that he was very

556
00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 2: focused on the sister and her happiness and her husband,

557
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:03,000
Speaker 2: and in that conversation we absolutely emphasize those things.

558
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, and one thing I loved about that episode was

559
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 1: it was so clear how much Liam and his sister

560
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 1: cared about each other and loved each other and were

561
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 1: trying to be so respectful of one another, and they

562
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:20,760
Speaker 1: both wanted the other person to be comfortable, and they

563
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:23,160
Speaker 1: were sort of in a gridlock because of that, So

564
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:24,960
Speaker 1: it was it was great that they were able to

565
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 1: have that conversation. And also going back to what Liam

566
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 1: said about finding a support network of other trans people,

567
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 1: which was another assignment that we had given him. We

568
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 1: had suggested virtual groups at the time, but he actually

569
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 1: went and found people in his community, which is of

570
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 1: course much better. Having that support as well as the

571
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:46,360
Speaker 1: support in his family probably helped him to come out

572
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 1: at work as well, and so now that he's out everywhere,

573
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 1: that's such an important step in this process for him.

574
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 2: And also the reminder that the two things that are

575
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 2: really important and way more than too frankly, but two

576
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 2: things that are important is the corrects and the correct name.

577
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:03,520
Speaker 2: And the fact that he said people are using his

578
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 2: name at work his correct name at work was also

579
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 2: great to hear because that's a very meaningful thing. So

580
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 2: let's hear some more about what's happening with Liam.

581
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:16,719
Speaker 12: You guys touched upon two things that have since stayed

582
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 12: with me. The first, I think Laurie was the one

583
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:25,800
Speaker 12: that said, how I externalize an internal conflict, and I

584
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 12: think I have done that so much in the past.

585
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 12: I'm so grateful that she mentioned that because I've been

586
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 12: way more vigilant about it. It's just something that I

587
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:40,600
Speaker 12: can see a past pattern that I've had, so I've

588
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:44,960
Speaker 12: definitely been working on that and figuring that out. And

589
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 12: the second bit that sometimes I'm so empathetic that I

590
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 12: don't prioritize myself enough. That is also something I've seen

591
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 12: a pattern in my past about tremendously. I'm not going

592
00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 12: to lose that empathy that I have for others, but

593
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 12: I'm also not going to allow it to be prioritized

594
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 12: in front of things I need to do for myself.

595
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:11,720
Speaker 12: So those two things have really stayed with me.

596
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 1: I remember exactly when I said that to Liam in

597
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 1: the session. I was talking about how sometimes what we

598
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 1: think is an external conflict actually becomes an internalized conflict,

599
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 1: Meaning our culture tells us one thing, and we think

600
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 1: that we're fighting the culture, which we are, but then

601
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 1: we have bought into that so much that we're fighting

602
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:37,000
Speaker 1: ourselves at the same time, and so now he was

603
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 1: dealing with not just this outside conflict, but the one

604
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 1: that he had brought into himself, into his own psyche,

605
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 1: and he had to really tackle both of those things

606
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 1: at the same time.

607
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 2: That's absolutely true, and it's true for anyone who was

608
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 2: living their lives and their identities go against whatever culture

609
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 2: is that they were raised in, because we tend to

610
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 2: internalize the cultures we were raised in, messaging we've got

611
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 2: for many, many formative years. When we go against it,

612
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 2: it actually takes a while to confront those differences, both

613
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 2: externally and especially internally.

614
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,799
Speaker 1: When we talk about external we also are talking about

615
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 1: our families. So sometimes we'll get messages from our families

616
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 1: about who we are that we internalize, You're the sensitive

617
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 1: one in the family, you're the difficult one in the family,

618
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 1: whatever that identity is. And then we start to think, oh,

619
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:32,880
Speaker 1: maybe I'm too sensitive, maybe I'm too difficult, And so

620
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:35,480
Speaker 1: we're fighting not just this perception that somebody else has

621
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:38,640
Speaker 1: about us, but we're fighting the perception that now we

622
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:41,240
Speaker 1: start to believe about ourselves as well.

623
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:45,480
Speaker 2: And it's an interesting exercise to sometimes take notes for

624
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:48,399
Speaker 2: yourself about what was your role in your family, how

625
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:51,840
Speaker 2: were you known quote in your family, how are you

626
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:55,239
Speaker 2: known in school? What was your role or your identity?

627
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:57,200
Speaker 2: And how much of that are you holding onto? How

628
00:34:57,280 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 2: much of that do you still want to hold on to,

629
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:01,240
Speaker 2: and how much of that is still even correct?

630
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:05,279
Speaker 1: And I think sometimes that does make us more empathetic,

631
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:10,440
Speaker 1: because when we have experienced something, we feel for other people,

632
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:13,400
Speaker 1: but we forget to feel enough for ourselves.

633
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 2: Empathy can indeed be a double edged sword, and especially

634
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 2: for people who have it very automatically. For some people,

635
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:22,440
Speaker 2: empathy is a thought exercise. They have to pause and

636
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 2: put themselves in the other person's shoes and figure it out.

637
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 2: For others, it comes very automatically. And when it comes

638
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:31,319
Speaker 2: very automatically that I get what the other person is

639
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 2: thinking or feeling, then sometimes your own needs and thoughts

640
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:38,839
Speaker 2: and feelings can come second. And we both see that

641
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:42,560
Speaker 2: in our offices when we talk to someone who's very

642
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:44,880
Speaker 2: very empathetic and we're talking about a relationship and we

643
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 2: ask them what they feel, and they keep going to

644
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:49,239
Speaker 2: what the other person feels, and we have to keep saying, no,

645
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:51,239
Speaker 2: I'm asking you what you feel, and you keep talking

646
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 2: about the other person. It's an example of people who

647
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:56,759
Speaker 2: are very high in empathy, and Liam was at risk

648
00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 2: for that, so I'm glad that he is aware of it,

649
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:03,560
Speaker 2: because you literally have to consciously remind yourself not to

650
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 2: not think of the other people because that comes automatically,

651
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:09,600
Speaker 2: but to push up your own priority in that order

652
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 2: of things.

653
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:12,759
Speaker 1: And I think there's one last piece Lee and wanted

654
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 1: to share with us.

655
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:20,279
Speaker 12: Most importantly would have gained about myself is that there's

656
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 12: a lot more love and support in my family than

657
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:26,960
Speaker 12: I had initially thought. Sad to say, but I would

658
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 12: have never described my family as very close knit or

659
00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:35,560
Speaker 12: very emotional before that. But listening to that conversation again,

660
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:39,759
Speaker 12: it is so apparent how much love and support I

661
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 12: get from them. The love between my sister and I

662
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 12: specifically is just so apparent and limitless. Getting to listen

663
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:52,960
Speaker 12: to it almost from an outsider perspective, made me realize

664
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:55,800
Speaker 12: that it was in front of my face the whole time.

665
00:36:56,080 --> 00:37:00,160
Speaker 12: This is probably an issue that is faced every day

666
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:06,719
Speaker 12: by somebody somewhere. It's really hard to be true to yourself.

667
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,800
Speaker 4: I hope that other people dealing with this.

668
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 12: Do get the support and the love that I receive

669
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:18,239
Speaker 12: from my family, and even if they don't, I hope

670
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:21,840
Speaker 12: they have the strength in them to be true to themselves.

671
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:24,239
Speaker 4: There's any trance people listening to this.

672
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 12: I just wanted to say that you are valid and

673
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:31,400
Speaker 12: you are loved, and that does not depend on whether

674
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:35,360
Speaker 12: your family or friends accept you or not, and most importantly,

675
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 12: you are not alone. Thank you so much, Guy and Laurie.

676
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:48,719
Speaker 12: It has been such an honor and getting such helpful feedback.

677
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:54,680
Speaker 12: You have absolutely changed my life for the better. I

678
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:56,799
Speaker 12: can't even put into words what this has meant to me,

679
00:37:57,440 --> 00:37:58,479
Speaker 12: so thank you so much.

680
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 4: I really appreciate you guys.

681
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:03,720
Speaker 1: There really is a lot of love in that family,

682
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:06,200
Speaker 1: and sometimes it's hard to see it. I remember with

683
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:10,480
Speaker 1: Liam's mom. At first, she was very supportive when he

684
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:13,719
Speaker 1: told her that he was going to be transitioning, and

685
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:17,279
Speaker 1: then the next time they spoke, she had kind of

686
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:21,279
Speaker 1: changed a little bit in terms of how accepting she

687
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:23,879
Speaker 1: was of that and how on board she was. And

688
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:26,759
Speaker 1: I think that sometimes that can be confused with a

689
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:28,759
Speaker 1: lack of love. But we have to remember that when

690
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:31,799
Speaker 1: somebody in a family system changes, no matter what kind

691
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:35,239
Speaker 1: of change it is, it takes a beat for other

692
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:38,560
Speaker 1: people in the family to process that change, and when

693
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:42,120
Speaker 1: the love is there in that way, people generally do

694
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 1: come around. There are so many times that we hear

695
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 1: about unfortunately where people don't come around, where people don't

696
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 1: embrace the person for who they really are. But in

697
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:53,359
Speaker 1: this case, just from everything Liam was saying, it felt

698
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:56,719
Speaker 1: like there was so much love in that family, not

699
00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:59,440
Speaker 1: just between the sisters but amongst all of them in

700
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:03,239
Speaker 1: different ways. Is that it's so beautiful to hear how

701
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 1: it's all coming together now a year later.

702
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 2: It is really lovely to hear, you know. The thing

703
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:12,240
Speaker 2: I'm thinking, Laurie, is that when somebody has a change

704
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 2: in identity, then they've been thinking about it for a

705
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:18,279
Speaker 2: long time before they really come out and talk to

706
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 2: their family about it. And by the time they do,

707
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:24,560
Speaker 2: they're often so impatient to get going and to move

708
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:27,120
Speaker 2: on with this next phase of their life that they

709
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:29,760
Speaker 2: want their family to come around immediately, and they forget

710
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:33,360
Speaker 2: sometimes that you've been thinking about this for many years.

711
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:36,359
Speaker 2: For some members of your family, it's very new and

712
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 2: it will take them time. Not that they won't get there,

713
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:40,839
Speaker 2: but they still have to go through a little bit

714
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:43,279
Speaker 2: of an adjustment, a little bit of a transition, and

715
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 2: I think the benefit of hearing from Liam now is

716
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 2: that enough time has passed and it's just lovely to

717
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:51,920
Speaker 2: hear that. That's something that's so much coming to the

718
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:52,600
Speaker 2: surface now.

719
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:57,239
Speaker 1: And what's so important here is that no matter what

720
00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:00,120
Speaker 1: I think, what Liam is saying to people is you

721
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:03,719
Speaker 1: need to be true to yourself. People will have reactions,

722
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:05,839
Speaker 1: people will do what they're going to do, But at

723
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:08,600
Speaker 1: the end of the day, how do you free yourself?

724
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:14,080
Speaker 1: You need to be true to yourself. You're listening to

725
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:17,080
Speaker 1: Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio. We'll be back after

726
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:33,040
Speaker 1: a short break. So guy, the last person we're going

727
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 1: to hear from today also is struggling to free herself

728
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:39,800
Speaker 1: and also has an issue with her sister.

729
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:44,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was Hailey. Hailey lived by her parents and

730
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:46,560
Speaker 2: was the only one taking care of them. She had

731
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:49,480
Speaker 2: two sisters who lived further away, so it all kind

732
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:52,600
Speaker 2: of fell on her and had for years. And Hailey

733
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:55,040
Speaker 2: was really resentful because her parents kind of took her

734
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:57,799
Speaker 2: for granted. She didn't feel seen or heard, and then

735
00:40:57,920 --> 00:40:59,879
Speaker 2: one of the sisters would fly in once a year

736
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 2: and the parents treated it like a visit. For Mary

737
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:05,239
Speaker 2: Poppins and Hailey had a lot of feelings about it.

738
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:07,320
Speaker 2: Let's get a reminder of that session.

739
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:11,719
Speaker 1: I think that there's still a yearning for you to

740
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:15,759
Speaker 1: have them appreciate who you are as a person. And

741
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:17,640
Speaker 1: so when your sister comes in and you said, like

742
00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 1: Mary Poppins, and what they see is not just everything

743
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:26,719
Speaker 1: she's doing that week, but I think that you have

744
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:29,359
Speaker 1: a sense they see something else in her that they

745
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:31,279
Speaker 1: haven't really looked hard enough to.

746
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:31,719
Speaker 4: See in you.

747
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:35,440
Speaker 8: Sometimes I think I should ask them more questions, because

748
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 8: that's what Jill does when she's there. She writes questions

749
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:43,880
Speaker 8: for the night and has people discuss memories and labels

750
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:45,440
Speaker 8: the antiques and oh.

751
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:46,719
Speaker 9: My goodness, she is Mary Puppins.

752
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:47,560
Speaker 2: Yeah.

753
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:51,440
Speaker 8: I can't compete with that. I don't know how to

754
00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:56,080
Speaker 8: do that. I remember.

755
00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:57,880
Speaker 1: One of the things we talked about with Hailey was

756
00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:01,040
Speaker 1: the fact that sometimes when people don't appreciate you, you

757
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:04,080
Speaker 1: don't realize that you have that right in front of you,

758
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:06,759
Speaker 1: and sometimes you take that for granted. And so one

759
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:08,719
Speaker 1: of the things we asked about was where she was

760
00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:12,200
Speaker 1: getting that in her life. And she started talking about

761
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:14,880
Speaker 1: her husband that he was very supportive of her and

762
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:17,279
Speaker 1: she also wanted to feel closer with him, and I

763
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:21,120
Speaker 1: remember we gave her that exercise to really share with

764
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 1: each other what they appreciated about one another. And after

765
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:27,279
Speaker 1: the first week she was so excited about that. She

766
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 1: said it had gone very well. It made her feel

767
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:33,360
Speaker 1: so good, and it made him feel so good. And

768
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:38,240
Speaker 1: let's hear now where Haley is with everyone in her family.

769
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:42,120
Speaker 8: Hi, Laurie and Guy, it's Haley.

770
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:47,080
Speaker 11: Your invitation to reconnect could not have come at a

771
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:47,840
Speaker 11: better time.

772
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:51,440
Speaker 8: Mostly it's with my husband.

773
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:54,640
Speaker 11: I have not followed through on your advice of appreciating

774
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:58,279
Speaker 11: him having him tell me what he appreciates about me.

775
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:01,600
Speaker 8: And I realized the assignment. It was only for.

776
00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:04,480
Speaker 11: A week, and hey, that was a great week. I

777
00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:06,560
Speaker 11: think I have said to him several times, you know,

778
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:08,400
Speaker 11: we need to work on this. I want to feel

779
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 11: closer to you. Let's at least start doing this thing

780
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:15,600
Speaker 11: that Guy and Laurie suggested I do and tell each

781
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:18,320
Speaker 11: other what we appreciate about each other, because I really

782
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:22,200
Speaker 11: do need to hear that from him, and I would

783
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:26,520
Speaker 11: really like to feel comfortable with feeling intimate with my husband,

784
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:29,799
Speaker 11: which is it's work. I'll admit that's work. Because I

785
00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:34,920
Speaker 11: was not trained in this way, you know, Laurie.

786
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:37,279
Speaker 2: It's so common and we see this all the time

787
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:39,600
Speaker 2: with couples we work with that couples will try something

788
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:42,520
Speaker 2: that works for them and they'll say, wow, that really worked,

789
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:44,600
Speaker 2: But then they'll fall out of the hat really quickly

790
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:47,680
Speaker 2: and go back to something that didn't work and created

791
00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:51,160
Speaker 2: more distance. And people might think, but if Haley felt

792
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:54,080
Speaker 2: that that was really useful, why didn't you just keep

793
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 2: doing it? And there are many reasons people fall back

794
00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:00,359
Speaker 2: into the world have its First, as Haley mentioned, you're

795
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:02,880
Speaker 2: doing something that doesn't come naturally, so it requires some

796
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:05,680
Speaker 2: kind of emotional effort and the cooperation of the other

797
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 2: person in this case, so it's not that easy. And

798
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:10,840
Speaker 2: the other part is that once we get our partner

799
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:14,360
Speaker 2: to do something that is better for us, we often

800
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:17,239
Speaker 2: have this fantasy that, well, they see it's better for us,

801
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:19,440
Speaker 2: they should keep doing it naturally because they know it

802
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:22,240
Speaker 2: makes me happy. But it's just as hard for Hade's

803
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:25,280
Speaker 2: husband to keep it up as it is for Hayley,

804
00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:28,759
Speaker 2: because again, it's not something that comes naturally, either to

805
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 2: them individually or to them in their couple dynamic.

806
00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:34,320
Speaker 1: Right now, right I don't see this as discouraging it

807
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:36,560
Speaker 1: all for those reasons, because I think it's hard to

808
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:38,440
Speaker 1: go out of our comfort zones, and here you have

809
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:41,360
Speaker 1: two people who are trying to do that. And I

810
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:44,600
Speaker 1: remember when she reported back after the first week, they

811
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:48,600
Speaker 1: both really enjoyed the appreciation exercise. They both seem to

812
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:51,240
Speaker 1: have gotten a lot out of it, and her husband

813
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:53,920
Speaker 1: sounded so willing. You know, it wasn't like she had

814
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 1: to force him to do it or try to convince

815
00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:58,880
Speaker 1: him to do it. And so I'm glad that she

816
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 1: is continuing to voice this to him because he does

817
00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:04,799
Speaker 1: seem willing, and she realizes that she needs to take

818
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:07,360
Speaker 1: an active role in this request.

819
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:09,960
Speaker 2: And one way to take an active role is to

820
00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 2: schedule the exercise and do it at specific times, like

821
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 2: I don't know, every Friday and Monday, say to end

822
00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:17,880
Speaker 2: and start the week, because then it becomes more automatic

823
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:19,560
Speaker 2: and something they can both look forward to.

824
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:22,680
Speaker 1: One of the nice things about this appreciation exercise is

825
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:24,800
Speaker 1: that we're not saying, go have a heavy talk about

826
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:27,160
Speaker 1: everything that's not working in your relationship, which you know

827
00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:29,640
Speaker 1: some couples are needing to deal with. They actually have

828
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:31,839
Speaker 1: a really nice relationship. What they want is they want

829
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:34,960
Speaker 1: more closeness. And I think that that appreciation piece and

830
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:38,120
Speaker 1: not feeling alone is really important to Haley. So this

831
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:40,480
Speaker 1: isn't a talk that people dread. This is a we're

832
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 1: going to schedule twice a week at the beginning and

833
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:44,719
Speaker 1: end of the week where we have a time where

834
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:47,799
Speaker 1: someone's going to tell me some really nice things about me.

835
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:49,880
Speaker 1: That's something that people look forward to.

836
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:53,240
Speaker 2: Absolutely, let's hear some more from Haley.

837
00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:56,640
Speaker 8: So on to my parents.

838
00:45:56,960 --> 00:45:59,319
Speaker 11: One of the things I found most valuable in re

839
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:04,279
Speaker 11: listening to the podcast was that metaphor that I made

840
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:07,840
Speaker 11: up about this currency that I have and maybe my

841
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 11: dad doesn't appreciate this currency, like I'm a Euro and

842
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:15,520
Speaker 11: he's a rupee and he doesn't value my currency, And

843
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 11: that was just such a great reminder about my own worth.

844
00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:25,960
Speaker 8: So in that way it was very helpful.

845
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:28,640
Speaker 11: And just hearing your kind voices again and all of

846
00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:32,359
Speaker 11: your praise about that I'm a great listener and then

847
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:36,839
Speaker 11: I write good metaphors, that was just very nice to hear.

848
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:40,720
Speaker 11: On a final note, the whole thing makes me realize

849
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:44,640
Speaker 11: how often I kind of walk around with my hand

850
00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:47,359
Speaker 11: out like, oh please like me, oh please like me, Oh,

851
00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:52,279
Speaker 11: please like me? Overdoing things for people, over you know,

852
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:53,240
Speaker 11: like I said.

853
00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:55,240
Speaker 8: With my parents, entertaining.

854
00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:58,840
Speaker 11: Like I'm a fool with a juggling ball and plates

855
00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:01,279
Speaker 11: everywhere I go to get people to like me.

856
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:04,600
Speaker 8: And I really shouldn't have to try that hard.

857
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:10,320
Speaker 11: I should really value my own currency and see my own.

858
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:12,880
Speaker 8: Worth, which I think speaks to the whole issue, like

859
00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:14,600
Speaker 8: how do you.

860
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:19,880
Speaker 11: Survive growing up in a house where people didn't value

861
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:23,720
Speaker 11: your currency and then become an adult and learn how

862
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:27,200
Speaker 11: to value your currency, which is why it hurts so

863
00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:31,160
Speaker 11: bad when you know, Mary Poppins comes in and everybody

864
00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:32,759
Speaker 11: loves Mary Poppins.

865
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:35,799
Speaker 1: So I think what we see with Haley here is

866
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:38,319
Speaker 1: how strong the pull of our own history can be,

867
00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:41,239
Speaker 1: where our old habits and our old dynamics come back in,

868
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:43,960
Speaker 1: and how often what we do is we take a

869
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:46,960
Speaker 1: few steps forward and then we slip back. And I

870
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:49,239
Speaker 1: think that the lesson here is that when you are

871
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:51,880
Speaker 1: making a change, you should know that you will slip

872
00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:55,759
Speaker 1: back sometimes, that it's not a linear progression, and that

873
00:47:55,840 --> 00:47:57,880
Speaker 1: you have to have a lot of compassion for yourself

874
00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:00,120
Speaker 1: and say, okay, so I slip back, and now now

875
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:02,919
Speaker 1: I'm going to get back on track. And I think

876
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:05,000
Speaker 1: that it's not a sign that a lot of people

877
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:07,440
Speaker 1: take of well, I slip back, so I can't do this.

878
00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:10,399
Speaker 1: You absolutely can do this, and this is just part

879
00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:11,360
Speaker 1: of the process.

880
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:13,719
Speaker 2: And you know what I say to people all the time,

881
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:15,600
Speaker 2: and they don't believe me until they're right, and then

882
00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 2: they go, oh yeah, right. Is that the same ease

883
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:22,239
Speaker 2: and the same quickness with which you can slip off track,

884
00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:24,280
Speaker 2: with which you can go back to the old habits.

885
00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:27,759
Speaker 2: It's true that you can then slip back on the

886
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:31,440
Speaker 2: right path that quickly as well, because we know for

887
00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:35,000
Speaker 2: Haley that one week of doing the appreciation exercise with

888
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:38,359
Speaker 2: her husband and changing the dynamics with her parents made

889
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:40,839
Speaker 2: a real difference. It took her a week to make

890
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:43,080
Speaker 2: that change. It will take less than a week to

891
00:48:43,239 --> 00:48:46,440
Speaker 2: change back into that way of thinking and doing. And

892
00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:48,960
Speaker 2: so the message to all our listeners is, if you

893
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:51,720
Speaker 2: started a new habit, a new dynamic with your partner

894
00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:54,200
Speaker 2: or with your family, and you slip out of it,

895
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:57,640
Speaker 2: it's just as easy to slip back in. So let's

896
00:48:57,640 --> 00:48:59,280
Speaker 2: hear the end of Haley's update.

897
00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:03,560
Speaker 11: I am probably going to listen to this podcast now

898
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:09,319
Speaker 11: every other month just the advice part to make sure

899
00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:11,600
Speaker 11: that I stay on track, to make sure that I

900
00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:16,000
Speaker 11: remember this feeling of self worth I guess is what

901
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:20,960
Speaker 11: that currency thing gets down, and to staying there, and

902
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:24,480
Speaker 11: also to working on the relationship with my husband and

903
00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:27,960
Speaker 11: feeling more comfortable being intimate.

904
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:29,640
Speaker 8: And I want to thank.

905
00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:33,600
Speaker 11: You both again for your time and your insight and

906
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:36,959
Speaker 11: choosing my letter out of all the ones I'm sure

907
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:40,920
Speaker 11: you get, because if I let it, it really could.

908
00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:41,760
Speaker 8: Change my life.

909
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:45,320
Speaker 1: So this is exactly what we were saying that as therapists,

910
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:51,040
Speaker 1: we assume that repetition will be required, and that when

911
00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:52,960
Speaker 1: you don't have a therapist to keep you on track

912
00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:55,759
Speaker 1: and remind you that you're going off track, you have

913
00:49:55,840 --> 00:49:59,279
Speaker 1: to find other reminders. And for Haley, listening to the

914
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:01,840
Speaker 1: podcast a month is a great way for her to

915
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:02,200
Speaker 1: do that.

916
00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:06,040
Speaker 2: And for our listeners who are dealing with creating change

917
00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:09,600
Speaker 2: in their own lives, schedule a monthly check in your

918
00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:12,160
Speaker 2: calendar in which you ask yourself, have I been keeping

919
00:50:12,239 --> 00:50:14,920
Speaker 2: up with my new habit or my new intention or

920
00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:17,600
Speaker 2: my new form of communicating the new dynamic whatever it

921
00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:19,920
Speaker 2: is you're trying to change. Have you been keeping up

922
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:21,520
Speaker 2: with it? Have you been keeping up with all the

923
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:25,400
Speaker 2: necessary support systems you have in place to facilitate that

924
00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:29,799
Speaker 2: check in with yourself, because you've had decades of establishing

925
00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:33,920
Speaker 2: sometimes poor habits, and to free yourselves from those, you

926
00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:37,760
Speaker 2: really need to check in regularly, at least at the beginning,

927
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:40,520
Speaker 2: to make sure you're developing the new habits that are

928
00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:41,760
Speaker 2: best for your emotional health.

929
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:45,560
Speaker 1: We've heard a lot about freedom in today's updates, and

930
00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:47,440
Speaker 1: it's so great to hear how people are doing a

931
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:50,600
Speaker 1: year later. We become very attached to the people that

932
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:53,120
Speaker 1: we talk to in their sessions, and we think about

933
00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:54,759
Speaker 1: them and we wonder how they're doing. And I know

934
00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:58,000
Speaker 1: that our listeners do too, and I hope that our

935
00:50:58,080 --> 00:51:02,840
Speaker 1: listeners are gaining something from hearing these updates, just like

936
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:04,960
Speaker 1: they do when they hear our initial sessions.

937
00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:08,680
Speaker 2: And that's why I'm so grateful to Haley, also, because

938
00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:12,640
Speaker 2: she reminded us all of something very important. That change

939
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:16,520
Speaker 2: requires maintenance, and that's something we should all keep in mind.

940
00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:23,400
Speaker 1: I love hearing these updates a year later, So we

941
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:26,400
Speaker 1: will be bringing more updates later in the season. But

942
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:29,480
Speaker 1: next week we will be back to our regular sessions

943
00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:32,279
Speaker 1: and we'll be hearing from a woman who comes to

944
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:36,000
Speaker 1: us to talk about her ex husband, who she believes

945
00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:37,600
Speaker 1: is a narcissist.

946
00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:39,560
Speaker 13: And he said, so, I have four major stressors in

947
00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:42,440
Speaker 13: my life. My marriage, my health, my work, and that

948
00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:44,920
Speaker 13: I'm a father. He said, one of those things is

949
00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:47,360
Speaker 13: on the chopping block, and that's the marriage.

950
00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:50,879
Speaker 1: Hey, fellow travelers, if you're enjoying our podcast each week,

951
00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:53,560
Speaker 1: don't forget to subscribe for free so that you don't

952
00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:57,160
Speaker 1: miss any episodes, and please help support Dear Therapists by

953
00:51:57,200 --> 00:51:59,360
Speaker 1: telling your friends about it and leaving a review on

954
00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:02,880
Speaker 1: apple podcas. Your reviews really help people to find the show.

955
00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:05,680
Speaker 2: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,

956
00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:10,920
Speaker 2: Bigo Smooth, email us at Lorian Guy at iHeartMedia dot com.

957
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:14,760
Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited

958
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:19,000
Speaker 1: by Mike Johns, Josh Fisher, and Chris Childs. Our interns

959
00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:22,560
Speaker 1: are Dorit Corwin and Silver Lifton. Special thanks to Alison

960
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:26,080
Speaker 1: Wright and to our podcast fairy Godmother Katie Couric.

961
00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:29,040
Speaker 2: We can't wait to see you at next week's session.

962
00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:32,200
Speaker 1: Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio