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Speaker 1: Welcome to The Laverne Cox Show, a production of Shondaland

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Speaker 1: Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Most men don't support sexual violence, but many men who

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Speaker 2: don't personally support sexual violence, I think they're in the minority,

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Speaker 2: But when you let them know that they're actually in

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Speaker 2: the majority, they're more likely to speak up and speak

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Speaker 2: out against it and less likely to commit hostile acts.

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Speaker 1: Hello everyone, and welcome to The Laverne Cox Show. My

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Speaker 1: name is Laverne Cox. On the last season of The

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Speaker 1: Laverne Cox Show, I had the honor of interviewing Toronto Burke,

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Speaker 1: the founder of the Me Too movement, and we talked

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Speaker 1: about reclaiming what me too means, and I expressed my

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Speaker 1: hopes that in the post Me Too era, we could,

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Speaker 1: like you know, end a culture of sexual violence. And

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Speaker 1: we've had probably perhaps the opposite, an intense backlash against

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Speaker 1: all of that. And I think it's an important conversation

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Speaker 1: to continue to have. And that brings me to today's guest,

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Speaker 1: Ellen Friedrichs. Ellen Fredricks is a health educator, writer, and

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Speaker 1: mother of three. She is the author of the amazing

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Speaker 1: book Good Sexual Citizenship, How to Create a sexually Safer

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Speaker 1: World Her writing has peered in publications including The Washington Post,

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Speaker 1: Parents dot Com, Salon, and the Huffington Post. Ellen runs

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Speaker 1: a middle school and high school health education program and

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Speaker 1: teach us in New York's City University System. Please enjoy

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Speaker 1: my conversation with Ellen Friedrichs. This episode contains conversation that

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Speaker 1: may be difficult for some listeners. Your discretion is advised. Hello, Ellen,

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the podcast. How are you feeling today?

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Speaker 2: I'm great. Thank you so much for having me on.

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Speaker 1: It's good to see you again. And I gosh, So

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Speaker 1: just a little background, I had Toronto Burke on the

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Speaker 1: podcast last season and the topic was reclaiming me Too.

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Speaker 1: I'd imagined after the Me Too movement that there would

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Speaker 1: be all these wonderful conversations about what constitutes consent and

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Speaker 1: what good sexual citizenship looks like. That has not. It

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Speaker 1: doesn't seem like that that's happened. And we're also and

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Speaker 1: I was really after the Andrew Tate. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if you're familiar with the person who following that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: for those people who don't know, there's a there's a

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Speaker 1: social media influencer I guess named Andrew Tate who had

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Speaker 1: millions of young men following him, and he has now

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Speaker 1: been arrested for sex trafficking and it's been accused of

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Speaker 1: sexual assault by multiple women, and he's admitted as much

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Speaker 1: really in his work. And there's something very troubling and

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Speaker 1: misogynistic about his rhetoric that lots and lots of young

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Speaker 1: men are following. And I'm like, okay, how can we intervene? So,

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's I want to define good sexual citizenship.

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Speaker 1: But as an educator, as someone with children, when you

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Speaker 1: see a situation like Andrew Tate, what is your reaction

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Speaker 1: to something like that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I have a lot of a lot

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Speaker 2: of concerns. I think there's a backlash. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 2: post B two, every time there's social progress, we see

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Speaker 2: a backlash. We're seeing it right now in so many areas,

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Speaker 2: book bands, gender are from a care don't say gay

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Speaker 2: bills which are being introduced, attacks on sex education. So

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Speaker 2: we're seeing all of this regressive policy being thrust at us.

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Speaker 2: And that kind of is a perfect situation for somebody

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Speaker 2: like Andrew Tate to emerge. Right, He's preying on this

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Speaker 2: kind of collective moral panic, and that seems really appealing.

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Speaker 2: To people. So my my real kind of hope right

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Speaker 2: now is that we talk to young CIS hetero boys early,

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Speaker 2: that we intervene before they find somebody like Andrew Tte

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Speaker 2: that we're not talking to them. So many of our

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Speaker 2: prevention messages and our messages about consent are kind of

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Speaker 2: directed at girls. But I think what we really need

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Speaker 2: to do is bring boys into the conversation early, make

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Speaker 2: them feel invested in the conversation and in being, as

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Speaker 2: you said, good sexual citizens before they can be kind

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Speaker 2: of lured away by somebody really insidious and dangerous who's

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Speaker 2: telling them that all their insecurities are actually the fault

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Speaker 2: of women or the fault of the LGBT community, and

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Speaker 2: that you know, they want flash out in this way.

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Speaker 2: So I think that's one of the main thrusts that

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Speaker 2: I would like to see happening.

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Speaker 1: I've seen many conversations about a crisis that young men

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Speaker 1: are having right now. Sure seems to focus on white men,

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Speaker 1: but just straight men in general. This straight man and

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Speaker 1: there's a crisis, and they're lonely and they're unhappy, and

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Speaker 1: they don't know what to do, and they don't know

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Speaker 1: what their place is in the world. Have you seen

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Speaker 1: these conversations. Do you experience that as an educator in

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Speaker 1: the classroom or is it just something that may be

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Speaker 1: online and not in real life.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I certainly think that this is an issue,

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Speaker 2: but I think that that not that I don't care

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Speaker 2: about that, right And I have three kids, and I

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Speaker 2: teach students, and I care about children of all genders,

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Speaker 2: and I care about the different experiences that they are having.

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Speaker 2: And I don't know if you saw that. The CDC

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Speaker 2: just released their bi annual Youth Risk Behavior Survey, and

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Speaker 2: this is something that they started doing in the early

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Speaker 2: nineteen nineties. Every two years, they asked students in ninth

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Speaker 2: through twelfth grade about risk behaviors, sexual experiences, are using condom,

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Speaker 2: alcohol and drug use, violence at school, all these questions,

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Speaker 2: and mental health issues, sexual violence. So what just came

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Speaker 2: out was that girls and GBTQ youth of all genders

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Speaker 2: are experiencing massive mental health crises and horizon sexual violence.

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Speaker 2: So while I care about sins hetero boys deeply, I

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Speaker 2: also feel like that conversation is distracting from what we're

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Speaker 2: seeing on the ground, that it is other children, children

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Speaker 2: with more marginalized identities, who are the ones who are

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Speaker 2: currently in crisis and who I think need our attention

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Speaker 2: in a lot of ways. So, you know, kids are

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Speaker 2: doing with different struggles, but right now those numbers are staggering.

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Speaker 2: I mean, the CDC report found that one in five

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Speaker 2: girls in the last year reported experiencing an act of

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Speaker 2: sexual violence against them, and one in ten girls have

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Speaker 2: reported experiencing this in their lifetime.

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Speaker 1: What age group were we talking? White age?

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Speaker 2: This is ninth through twelfth grade, so they ask high

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Speaker 2: school kids, and those numbers I think are up something

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Speaker 2: like thirty percent since twenty seventeen. So you're talking, you know,

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Speaker 2: what is going on? Me too? We're seeing this rise

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Speaker 2: in really, you know, in sexual violence. You know, in

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Speaker 2: cell culture has not been dismantled that I think kind

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Speaker 2: of those hand in hand with the andrew Tates of

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Speaker 2: the world, and there's a real problem going on.

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Speaker 1: What is your take on the in cell phenomenon in

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Speaker 1: relationship to all this, I mean, I guess, but there's

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Speaker 1: that question. But then I'm thinking that, like, yes, we

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Speaker 1: should be concerned about folks who are survivors of sexual violence,

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Speaker 1: but then how do we keep perpetrators from being perpetrators?

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Speaker 2: Is like the thing I mean, so my goal as

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Speaker 2: an educator, as a teacher, and as a parent is

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Speaker 2: not to necessarily reach every single potential perpetrator out there,

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Speaker 2: because I just don't think I can do that. But

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Speaker 2: the people that I want to reach are the ones

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Speaker 2: who are reachable, and I think that more people are

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Speaker 2: reachable than we think. And certainly sexual violence of people

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Speaker 2: of all genders. Right, boys can be victims of sexual

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Speaker 2: violence as well as perpetrators. Right, girls and women can

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Speaker 2: commit acts of sexual violence. But when we look at

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Speaker 2: the data, you know there's a real disproportionate situation going

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Speaker 2: on where girls and folks of all genders or LGBTQIA

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Speaker 2: are more likely to be survivors victims and boys and

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Speaker 2: men more likely to be perpetrators. So I think if

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Speaker 2: we ignore the gendered experience of this, we're really not

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Speaker 2: going to undercut the systems that promote this violence. But

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Speaker 2: I also think that what we really what I want

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Speaker 2: to do as an educator is reach those boys who

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Speaker 2: maybe are on the sidelines, who maybe aren't actively perpetrating harm,

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Speaker 2: but who are promoting a culture or harm. Confessor, So

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Speaker 2: you know, we've done a lot of work. We know

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Speaker 2: that bystander intervention works. We know that getting people to

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Speaker 2: speak up to challenge those kind of underlying beliefs and

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Speaker 2: attitudes that I think can really grow into violence. I

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Speaker 2: think that's what I have been doing a lot of

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Speaker 2: work on in my classrooms and in my writing, is

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Speaker 2: to look at those attitudes, those comments, behaviors that are

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Speaker 2: so often written off as like, no big deal, just

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Speaker 2: a joke. You know, you're being so politically correct, stop

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Speaker 2: acting so woke like all of that. That when we

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Speaker 2: dismiss those what seemed like low level comments or jokes

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Speaker 2: or stereotypes, that really opens the door for escalating harm

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Speaker 2: because it's part of a process of dehumanizing people, right,

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Speaker 2: and then when we dehumanize someone, we just make it

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Speaker 2: easier to objectify them, to not treat them as equal

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Speaker 2: to ourselves, and then to commit acts.

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Speaker 1: Of violence and take away rights as well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and take away exactly. But we're staying right now.

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Speaker 1: I think the rhetoric around trans folks and LGBTQ plus

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Speaker 1: folks and state legislatures right now, with all the bills

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Speaker 1: banning gender from and care are able to pass because

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Speaker 1: we've been so successfully dehumanized as trans folks, so how

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Speaker 1: do you define good sexual citizenship? What does it mean

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Speaker 1: to you to be a good sexual citizen?

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Speaker 2: For me? This is a term and it's used in

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Speaker 2: different contexts over the years. So it has been used

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Speaker 2: to describe the lack of rights, specifically, in some cases,

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Speaker 2: the lack of LGBTQ folks to marry partners. It's been

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Speaker 2: described as the lack of youth rights. It's been used

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Speaker 2: in the context of reproductive justice. But it's also being

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Speaker 2: used in the way that I'm using it in my

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Speaker 2: book and in my teaching practice to talk about this

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Speaker 2: idea that all sects that happens should be wanted by

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Speaker 2: all participants and enjoyed by all participants, and that people

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Speaker 2: should have the right to opt into a sexual situation

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Speaker 2: and to opt out. And you know, so often I

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Speaker 2: think people put their sexual desires on another person without

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Speaker 2: the other person's buy in or agreement. We objectify people,

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Speaker 2: we harass people, We physically put our bodies on people

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Speaker 2: in the way that we want. We have sex with

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Speaker 2: other people without any regard for whether they're enjoying it.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it can be consensual, but it can still

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Speaker 2: be a really unpleasant or lackluster at best. Experience. So

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Speaker 2: this is the idea, and I'm not talking about, you know,

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Speaker 2: some mind blowing multi orgasmic situation. Every time you have sex,

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Speaker 2: doesn't you like what you're doing. You're like happy enough

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Speaker 2: to be there, and it feels fine or good. We're

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Speaker 2: mind blowing. So it's opting in and opting out and

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Speaker 2: feeling safe to do that.

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Speaker 1: All sex should be wanted by all parties involved and enjoyed. Yes,

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Speaker 1: I like that a lot, And it's so interesting how

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Speaker 1: murky that all gets for people. Many years ago, I

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Speaker 1: remember reading an article on a good men project on

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Speaker 1: this website and it was about a man who after

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Speaker 1: the fact realized he had committed sexual assault. And he

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Speaker 1: sort of talked about films when you know, a woman

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Speaker 1: says no but she means yes, and he had gotten

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Speaker 1: the mixed signals and then he had to flee the town.

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Speaker 1: And I was just like, okay, wow, Like so you

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Speaker 1: can have committed sexual assault and not realize that you

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Speaker 1: actually committed assault. And it was actually a moment too

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Speaker 1: with Kobe Bryant. Kobe Bryant, when he talked about his incident,

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Speaker 1: he said, after the fact that I understand now that

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Speaker 1: this woman didn't consent to sex I thought she did,

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Speaker 1: or I thought there was consent, but she hadn't. And

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Speaker 1: I wish we could talk about that without people like

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Speaker 1: sort of coming for cobD, like you're denegrating this man's memory.

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Speaker 1: But like that feels like a shift to me, Right,

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Speaker 1: I understand now that what I thought was consensual was

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Speaker 1: not consented to by the other person involved, Like, I

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Speaker 1: don't hear a lot of people say that.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think, you know, here's the thing. I think.

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Speaker 2: I think he was one of the few people public

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Speaker 2: figures who actually acknowledged having committed that harm. I mean

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Speaker 2: in this kind of circuitous way, but I think most

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Speaker 2: people are in this kind of litigious you know, deflect

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Speaker 2: reflect I didn't do it, I know it was consensual.

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Speaker 2: And for him to actually say that was a departure

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Speaker 2: from I think a lot of the responses, I never

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Speaker 2: did this, it didn't happen. She's lying, right. There's a

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Speaker 2: big mythology about false rape claims. So in many ways,

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Speaker 2: actually that was a real different approach to I wouldn't

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Speaker 2: say complete ownership, but acknowledging the harm that was caused

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Speaker 2: to another person. And I think partly because we do

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Speaker 2: live in such a religious environment, many people really cannot

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Speaker 2: ever take ownership for harming other people. And that's tricky

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Speaker 2: because you know, there's a growing movement obviously in many

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Speaker 2: circles for restorative justice, and you know, I think research

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Speaker 2: has found that many more people who experienced harm would

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Speaker 2: be open to restorative justice practices where somebody who has

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Speaker 2: harmed them somehow repairs the harm rather than you know,

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Speaker 2: gets into the criminal justice system, in justice system, whatever

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Speaker 2: we want to call it, but we don't really make

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Speaker 2: a lot of space for them, either socially or interpersonally.

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Speaker 1: And restorative justice actually means that you have to admit

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Speaker 1: that you did something wrong.

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Speaker 2: Right, and as soon as you do that, you're opening

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Speaker 2: up the doors for a lot of other potential consequences

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Speaker 2: for you.

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Speaker 1: This is a good time to take a little break. Okay,

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Speaker 1: we're back. Let's break down some myths and some misconceptions.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think around like what consent looks like

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Speaker 1: and when it's given and when it can be taken away,

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Speaker 1: And there was there was there was an interesting the

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Speaker 1: disease I'm sorry moment. I thought it was also an

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Speaker 1: opportunity missed to talk with a lot of nuance about consent, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: if you recall that situation, that was one of one

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Speaker 1: of the last stories I could read. I have to

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Speaker 1: stop reading all these stories because it's just too triggering.

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Speaker 1: But if the account is to be believed that she

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Speaker 1: had gone on a date with disease, she met him

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Speaker 1: in his apartment. They had a drink, and they went

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Speaker 1: to a nearby restaurant. They got through dinner quickly and

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Speaker 1: went back to his place, and she said that I

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Speaker 1: don't want to have sex, and he said, oh, cool,

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Speaker 1: and then ten minutes fifteen minutes later, tries to have

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Speaker 1: sex with her, and then she's like, no, I don't

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Speaker 1: want to have sex. He says cool, waits and then

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Speaker 1: tries again. It's almost as if she's still here, so

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Speaker 1: there's still a chance. I don't need, you know, it's like,

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Speaker 1: and then eventually they have sex and she it's just awful.

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Speaker 2: It's awful. I remember that completely, so you know, obviously

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Speaker 2: I also only read the account.

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Speaker 1: Yes, we don't know what happened, fully, right, we weren't there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but it sounds so familiar. It sounds so familiar.

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Speaker 1: It sounds so familiar to me, and he's so familiar

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Speaker 1: to me, yeah.

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Speaker 2: And I think for so many people who read it,

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Speaker 2: we were just like, oh, yep, right, like this is

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Speaker 2: how this can go down so frequently, and does that

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Speaker 2: is that exactly the same as other instance of sexual violence. No,

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Speaker 2: but it's one form of harm that so many people

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Speaker 2: have experienced.

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Speaker 1: And a lot of people would say that this is

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Speaker 1: not assault, right. I heard a lot of people say

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Speaker 1: that this wasn't sexual assault, this wasn't rape, and I'm

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Speaker 1: not sure I would say that it was. But I

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Speaker 1: think this is the kind of gray area we get

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Speaker 1: into where for me, as a woman and having I had,

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Speaker 1: I learned very early on that like I can't if

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Speaker 1: I'm in private with the man, I probably need to

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Speaker 1: be ready to have sex, right that I learned this

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Speaker 1: message in an unfavery, unfortunate way that like going upstairs

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Speaker 1: he hears sex, Like right, yeah, I.

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Speaker 2: Think that's a message that a lot of us get. So,

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Speaker 2: I guess, you know, you mentioned the term gray area,

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Speaker 2: and I think about this all lot. For me, I

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Speaker 2: guess I don't need to you know, whatever anybody wants

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Speaker 2: to name their situation. I think that is in one's

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Speaker 2: own space. And you know, I can't tell somebody what

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Speaker 2: crosses the line from harassment to assault to rape. But

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Speaker 2: I can say, like, these are awful, damaging, harmful, violent situations.

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Speaker 2: They're really upsetting. And you know, I'm not a prosecutor,

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Speaker 2: I'm not a litigator, and I'm an educator and somebody

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Speaker 2: who cares about young people and sexual safety. So I

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Speaker 2: guess I'm less worried about what we name certain incidents,

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Speaker 2: although I do think naming is important. And one thing

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Speaker 2: that came out of this that I was thinking about

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Speaker 2: with this we mentioned before CDC report this rise of

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Speaker 2: sexual violence, is that maybe actually post me too, there

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Speaker 2: has been more naming, and maybe that is positive. That

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Speaker 2: maybe the reason we have this thirty percent or so

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Speaker 2: rise is that we know that certain things aren't just shitty,

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Speaker 2: excuse crappy, bad experiences, but they're you know, this rises

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Speaker 2: to the level of violence. So I want to put

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Speaker 2: that in one container. And then also say, I can't

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Speaker 2: name other people's experiences because bad sex for somebody, an

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Speaker 2: unpleasant experience can really be sexual violence in somebody else's

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Speaker 2: understanding of those terms. But this great area is so tricky,

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Speaker 2: and I'll tell you what I tell my students about

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Speaker 2: that is that on the face of it, Yeah, I

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Speaker 2: don't believe a grey area really exists. Like you have consenter,

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Speaker 2: you don't, you have somebody who's really enthusiastic, and enthusiastic

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Speaker 2: again does not mean you're, like, you know, replicating the

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Speaker 2: hottest scene you've ever seen in a movie. But it's

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Speaker 2: like you're in it because you want to be there

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Speaker 2: and you like to be there and you're open to

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Speaker 2: what you're doing, so you have somebody's buy in or

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Speaker 2: you don't. But I also one hundred percent believe that

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Speaker 2: we live in a world that is so sex negative,

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Speaker 2: so uncomfortable talking about sex, and this makes it really

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Speaker 2: confusing for a lot of people who don't know how

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Speaker 2: to communicate about sex, so they're confused in those moments.

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Speaker 2: So it feels like it's a real gray area. You're

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Speaker 2: in this moment, you leave forward, you try to kiss them,

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Speaker 2: Are they kissing you back? Or are they not kissing

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Speaker 2: you back? You put your hands in their pants and

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Speaker 2: they step it up. Is that because they're turned on

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Speaker 2: or because they don't want you to do that? Right?

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Speaker 2: So it's like these confusing We're relying on body language

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Speaker 2: that means different things to different people. We're relying on

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Speaker 2: social cues which are often really really gendered. Still live

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Speaker 2: in a world where boys are often told work for

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Speaker 2: what you want, don't give up, you know, you just

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Speaker 2: got to keep trying, and girls are often told, don't

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Speaker 2: seem too easy, play hard to get. You want to

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Speaker 2: make him like you make him work for it. So

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Speaker 2: those outdated messages play in a lot of people's heads

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Speaker 2: when they're hooking up with someone, and that.

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Speaker 1: Can mean So then with those messages that, I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's I think we still hear that right like you

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Speaker 1: guys go for get, girls play hard to get. So

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Speaker 1: where is the intervention? Then with that old, outdated how

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Speaker 1: do we undo that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I will often tell students this, if you have

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Speaker 2: any doubt, just hold off. If you don't feel comfortable

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Speaker 2: checking in verbally and being like, hey, do you want

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Speaker 2: to keep going? Can touch you there? Do you want

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Speaker 2: to do this? Or do you want to take a break?

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Speaker 2: Do you want to go watch a movie? If you

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Speaker 2: don't feel comfortable in that, just stop, Just stop because

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Speaker 2: maybe the next day that personal text would be like

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Speaker 2: why did you stop? I was having so much fun?

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Speaker 2: I really wanted to hook up with you more. Then

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Speaker 2: you can text back and say, oh, I wasn't sure

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Speaker 2: want to go out tonight, and like, maybe you blew

359
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Speaker 2: your one shot to ever hook up with that person.

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Speaker 2: Maybe that experience will never happen again, But your potential

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Speaker 2: missed opportunity is so much better than a consent violation

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Speaker 2: than harming somebody if you were really in this kind

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Speaker 2: of muddled headspace where you just weren't sure.

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Speaker 1: And the communication piece too, how did we Because I

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Speaker 1: think about where situations where I've consented to one particular

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Speaker 1: sex sect, but I haven't consented to another one, right,

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Speaker 1: So that's the nuance of like communication, I'm not into this,

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Speaker 1: you know, you can't do that. And I'm pretty good

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Speaker 1: at this, like you know, as I've gotten older, I'm

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Speaker 1: fifty years old now, so I've gotten better at this

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Speaker 1: over the years, and I've gotten better at like not

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Speaker 1: putting myself in situations that could be dangerous. But then

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Speaker 1: I feel like this puts the onus on the potential survivor.

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Speaker 2: But I think that's where we have to change our messaging.

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Speaker 2: You know, we so often and a lot of the

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Speaker 2: sex education still is really gendered, right, really binary, and

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Speaker 2: it's really saying to girls like put the brakes on,

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Speaker 2: stop the boy, tell them to stop. But I really

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Speaker 2: think we need to reframe that from day one and

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Speaker 2: tell people that if you are trying to move a

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Speaker 2: hookup sex act a little forward, if you're making out

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Speaker 2: and you want to go under somebody's clothes, right, if

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Speaker 2: you're having oral sex and you want to move into

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Speaker 2: a different form of penetration, like if you're the person

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Speaker 2: who's initiating or suggesting the next sex act or something

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Speaker 2: that you aren't already doing, like, then you should check in.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't need to be, you know, this lengthy conversation.

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Speaker 2: But I think that if people aren't comfortable, I mean,

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Speaker 2: this is easier to say to children and teenagers, but

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Speaker 2: you know, if you're not comfortable having that check in,

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Speaker 2: it's kind of assigned to me that you're not really

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Speaker 2: comfortable or ready to be doing this. And that's kind

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Speaker 2: of something I say a lot. It's harder to do

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Speaker 2: with adults who beens actually active for decades, but with

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Speaker 2: teenagers and college students, I really often say, like, if

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Speaker 2: the idea of talking to somebody about the kind of

397
00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:20,119
Speaker 2: sex you want to have is really off putting, like

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Speaker 2: just take a pause, maybe figure out how you can communicate.

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Speaker 1: What I would say to adults is if having a

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Speaker 1: conversation with the person about what kind of sex you

401
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Speaker 1: want to have or don't want to have feels uncomfortable,

402
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Speaker 1: they're the wrong person.

403
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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's another part.

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Speaker 1: That's actually what I would say to adults, that if

405
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Speaker 1: you can't have that conversation, I mean, adults can have

406
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Speaker 1: trauma and regress into childhood. I mean, the body doesn't

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Speaker 1: know if a trauma happened twenty years ago.

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Speaker 2: So I think you recommended that book to me many

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Speaker 2: years ago. The body keeps score.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so that in a certain situation, we're not an

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Speaker 1: adult anymore and we regress, particularly if we have an Unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: a dear friend of mine who experienced childhood sexual abuse

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Speaker 1: was in a situation recently and then that trauma. They

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Speaker 1: weren't an adult anymore. They were again the abused child

415
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Speaker 1: in a situation and it was it was it was bad.

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Speaker 2: No, we certainly hold onto these physically, we hold onto

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Speaker 2: these memories. I think there's also another complication, which is

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Speaker 2: that you know, we live in a world with a

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Speaker 2: lot of neurodiversity, and so I do want to also

420
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Speaker 2: make space for people who communicate differently, and not everybody

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Speaker 2: verbally communicates or uses body language in the same way

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Speaker 2: or reads body language in the same way. So that's

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Speaker 2: that's another layer that it can You know, if you're

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Speaker 2: talking to somebody who just really isn't reading like really neurologically,

425
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Speaker 2: it is not reading signs the way that you assume

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Speaker 2: they are, or potentially comes from a culture where body

427
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Speaker 2: language is read completely differently, you really can have a

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Speaker 2: tricky situation where one person really thinks something is clear

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Speaker 2: and the person really doesn't. So I think we still

430
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Speaker 2: also need to do a lot of work because you know,

431
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:11,760
Speaker 2: gender socialization certainly, but also cultural experiences and you know,

432
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:16,560
Speaker 2: our diversity can all play into how we interpret messages

433
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:18,800
Speaker 2: about sex and what is not okay for someone else.

434
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:22,840
Speaker 1: I was just thinking about like the great relationship I'm

435
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:25,080
Speaker 1: in now, the great sex I'm having now that is

436
00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:29,080
Speaker 1: consensual and hot and wonderful and I'm so grateful for

437
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:32,600
Speaker 1: And then I think about situations in my past where

438
00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:36,520
Speaker 1: things were kind of iffy and murky, and I think that,

439
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 1: like what was going on for in those situations with

440
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:46,800
Speaker 1: these men is that, like I was a conquest. Their

441
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:50,960
Speaker 1: goal was to get me in bed by any means necessary,

442
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:55,000
Speaker 1: and I wasn't a full human being, and so good

443
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:58,159
Speaker 1: sexual citizenship I don't think can happen in the context

444
00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:03,120
Speaker 1: of us sort of objectifying someone the way in which

445
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:06,080
Speaker 1: we see men talking about women in the man sphere, right,

446
00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:09,560
Speaker 1: just horrible ways and when like a person and I

447
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,920
Speaker 1: think this is all genders can do this when we're

448
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:15,439
Speaker 1: in the space of like this is a conquest that

449
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 1: doesn't foster an environment of I don't know. I mean,

450
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:21,840
Speaker 1: I don't want to tell people. You know, maybe that's

451
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:23,879
Speaker 1: hot a role player for someone, but like for me,

452
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:28,400
Speaker 1: it feels like that is the difference between situations where

453
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 1: like even though I can sent it feeling just horrible

454
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:35,520
Speaker 1: and awful and just yucky, and situations where I came

455
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:38,879
Speaker 1: out feeling like embodied and seen and I had fun

456
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,240
Speaker 1: and it was healthy. You know. I guess it's like

457
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 1: defining healthy sexuality being a good sexual citizen. What does

458
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 1: healthy sexuality look like? It's different for everybody, right, But

459
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 1: like for me, it's about feeling empowered in this situation.

460
00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:57,640
Speaker 1: I'm enjoying it that I've consented that I'm and I'm

461
00:25:57,640 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 1: feeling respected.

462
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 2: Like rough sex can be super hot sex. Different people

463
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:04,160
Speaker 2: are in your step, we will play like different people

464
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,920
Speaker 2: are totally into different things. But it really only works

465
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:08,320
Speaker 2: when everybody's on the same page.

466
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:11,520
Speaker 1: But then it's like, do we need to talk about everything?

467
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:13,440
Speaker 1: And I think is it hot to have a conversation

468
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:16,560
Speaker 1: about everything you do before you go forward to and

469
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 1: remember being on a date with the guy and he

470
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:20,960
Speaker 1: was just kind of like real squeamish about like even

471
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:23,119
Speaker 1: kissing me or making any kind of move and he

472
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,440
Speaker 1: was very like woke and very like progressive and it

473
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,080
Speaker 1: was great, but I was just like, okay, like you know,

474
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:31,960
Speaker 1: come on, you know, like let's do this.

475
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:34,359
Speaker 2: So it's like way, But I think that you that

476
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 2: comes back to kind of what you were saying, like

477
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 2: maybe these aren't the right people, right, Not everybody gonna

478
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:41,359
Speaker 2: have sexual chemistry with, not everybody you're gonna be able

479
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:44,560
Speaker 2: to have these intimate physical experiences with. And I really

480
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 2: don't think that every sex act needs a long conversation.

481
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 2: But literally, if you put your hands on somebody's neck,

482
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:54,440
Speaker 2: saying is this okay? Or literally even can I put

483
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,199
Speaker 2: my hands there right? Or do you like this? Like

484
00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 2: doesn't have to be a whole conversation and I think

485
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,200
Speaker 2: that can go a huge way.

486
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:05,399
Speaker 1: How does that feel? Is that hot for you?

487
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 2: Right? No?

488
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:07,200
Speaker 1: Yes? Stop? Yeah?

489
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:09,880
Speaker 2: You know. It's funny because I was talking to middle

490
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 2: schoolers today about kissing and I showed a clip from

491
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:21,560
Speaker 2: Frozen two where Anna and who is the sister of

492
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:25,280
Speaker 2: the queen, and Christoph, who is the reindeer herder, are

493
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:28,280
Speaker 2: in a moment and she gives him a present and

494
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 2: he gets so excited he says can I kiss you?

495
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 2: And she says, yes, you can, and then they kiss it.

496
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:35,200
Speaker 2: It's adorable and it's cute, and I like to show

497
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 2: that because I juxtapose that with all these movie images

498
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:41,879
Speaker 2: where normally man forcedly grabbing a woman and passionately kissing

499
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 2: her and she might resist, but then she might melt

500
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:44,119
Speaker 2: into him.

501
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,359
Speaker 1: I'm saying more more instances where women are initiating and

502
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 1: doing maybe in film and television.

503
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:52,960
Speaker 2: Maybe. And I don't want to say that that's never appropriate,

504
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:54,640
Speaker 2: but I also don't want to say that it's never

505
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:55,960
Speaker 2: okay to talk about it.

506
00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 1: I love it when a man has asked me, is

507
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:01,879
Speaker 1: that can I kiss you? Yeah? That's as you know,

508
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:05,199
Speaker 1: I was a very grown woman, and then asking me

509
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:08,879
Speaker 1: if he can kiss me, it's like it's hot. And I,

510
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:12,680
Speaker 1: you know, I am a person who and my boyfriend

511
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:14,720
Speaker 1: seems to love when I knowed she ate sex and

512
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 1: he you know what. I don't want to say too

513
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,120
Speaker 1: much about our relationship, but we talked very openly about

514
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 1: a lot of things, and we talked about I was

515
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 1: telling him weeks ago that I was going to do

516
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:25,199
Speaker 1: this podcast, and we kind of talked about consent and whatnot,

517
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,200
Speaker 1: and he said what he does is he like, he'll

518
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 1: make a move and if he doesn't, if it doesn't

519
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:35,399
Speaker 1: feel like she's responsive, he'll wait for her. He just

520
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 1: will stop and he'll wait to see if she makes

521
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:41,840
Speaker 1: a move. If she doesn't, then that's it. And I

522
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 1: was like, okay, I'm like, not, man, I don't know what.

523
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 1: I don't know what you think about that, but like

524
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 1: that's worked for us.

525
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I don't think there's a one size

526
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:53,479
Speaker 2: fits all solution. I mean that sounds like, you know,

527
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 2: two grown ups who can figure out how to navigate this.

528
00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 2: Plenty of people don't talk about sex and they have

529
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 2: perfectly consensual, intimate, positive experiences without actually using verbal conversation. Yeah,

530
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 2: I'm so often thinking about young people are so new

531
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 2: to this. So I feel like for young people who

532
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 2: are so new to this, you know, putting it out

533
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:15,440
Speaker 2: on the table is often just the clearest way to

534
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 2: stay safe. But yeah, when I'm talking to my students,

535
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 2: it's a suggestion, right, like this might make you feel

536
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 2: safer and better. It's not going to work for everybody.

537
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:27,520
Speaker 2: But if you're unsure, hold off use words, you know,

538
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 2: wait until you are sure. Maybe it's a sign you're

539
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:31,200
Speaker 2: not comfortable, Like all right, is this really what the

540
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 2: other person wants to do? And am I really okay

541
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 2: with it? Also?

542
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 1: I love I love that, and I love kids talking

543
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 1: creating an environment work. It's okay for kids to like

544
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 1: communicate and say, maybe this isn't right for me, Okay,

545
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 1: it's that time again. We'll be right back. Let's get

546
00:29:54,960 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 1: back to it. So what is the balance between that language?

547
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 1: You know, language is also a place to struggle, to

548
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:09,480
Speaker 1: quote Bellehooks as you do in your book, to understand

549
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 1: that language can contribute to a culture of violence, to

550
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 1: rape culture. But then to have those messages in a

551
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 1: way that people can hear them. I just feel like

552
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:23,440
Speaker 1: there's but the backlash has been so effective, like this

553
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:27,360
Speaker 1: anti woke and you're too woke, and the left specifically

554
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 1: wants to police everybody, and you can't say anything right now.

555
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 1: Comedians can't joke, you know. I was just on a

556
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:34,600
Speaker 1: talk show the other day with the comedian. She was

557
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 1: just like, we can't say anything now, and so how

558
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 1: do we balance or how do we Maybe it's about reframing,

559
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 1: you know, the conversation to give people not to tune out.

560
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 1: I think it's the piece so that we can have

561
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 1: these conversations so that people could just be safer.

562
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 2: Sure. So I have another sex educator friend, Justine Fonte,

563
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 2: who has been sending me reels of comedians that I

564
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 2: actually think are really funny, entire all these issues in

565
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 2: a really funny way. So I know it's possible, totally right,

566
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 2: and I know it's out there, but I'm always nervous

567
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 2: about dehumanizing people in comedy or using somebody's identity as

568
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 2: the butt of a joke. And it's actually, you know,

569
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 2: I teach middle in high school health, right, so I

570
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 2: can say to my students, like, when we make jokes,

571
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 2: there are certain things that I'm gonna tell you I

572
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 2: don't feel are very funny. I don't think it's funny

573
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 2: to joke about something that somebody can't change, right the race,

574
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 2: their age, their ability. So those things to me feel

575
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 2: like too sensitive for the average interaction. I also tell

576
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,080
Speaker 2: my kids that it's really different when two people who

577
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 2: share an identity tease each other about those identities that

578
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 2: if somebody from outside of the identity does so. I'm

579
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 2: Jewish and I'll sit around my Jewish friends and we'll

580
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 2: make funny jokes about Jewish culture, being Jewish, And sometimes

581
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:48,160
Speaker 2: someone who is not Jewish can make those funny jokes

582
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 2: and it feels okay, but oftentimes it doesn't. So for kids,

583
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 2: I just think there's some good guidelines that we can give.

584
00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 2: And maybe this does feel like it's too policing and

585
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 2: it's being too strong sured and censoring language. But at

586
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 2: least in some environments, I'm concerned about people feeling safe,

587
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 2: and I care less about how hilarious we're allowed to

588
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 2: be as opposed to how safe people feel.

589
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 1: You know, it's so interesting because I think I sit

590
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 1: here and I think have I so deeply internalized the

591
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 1: narrative that we should let comedians be commedians, And I know

592
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 1: the conversation right now around the You know, there's a

593
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 1: several comedians who want to make anti trans jokes, and

594
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,240
Speaker 1: the second a trans person or a group of trans

595
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:33,959
Speaker 1: people have an issue with it, then it like seems

596
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 1: to feed them. It seems too a reaffirm that we're

597
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 1: too sensitive. But then there is still the harm, there's

598
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 1: still the like, I guess, it's like, how do we recenter? Okay,

599
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 1: I'm really processing this in real time. It's like, how

600
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 1: do we recenter the marginalized people? How do we recenter

601
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 1: the people who are having their healthcare taken away, who

602
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 1: are more likely to be victims of sexual assault, of

603
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:04,080
Speaker 1: street harassment, steal. Transgender kids a g Listen report seventy

604
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 1: eight percent of them experience rass and are bullying in school.

605
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:08,280
Speaker 1: Transcids the reality.

606
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 2: So I grew up in Canada, I grew up with

607
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 2: anti hate speech laws, so when people talk to me

608
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:16,320
Speaker 2: about I should be free to say whatever I want.

609
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:21,480
Speaker 2: I feel like language is deadly Obviously there's anything can happen.

610
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 2: But if you think about an altercation between two people,

611
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 2: normally starts with words, right, normally starts with somebody using

612
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:31,600
Speaker 2: a slur, saying something, doing something, then throwing a punch

613
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 2: but I think you mentioned something before that, you know,

614
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 2: how do we not turn people off this cause, how

615
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:38,560
Speaker 2: do we bring people in? How do we not have

616
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 2: them say you're just policing what I'm saying. What I

617
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 2: really try to do is speak to people's underlying core

618
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:47,600
Speaker 2: positive values and to kind of bring them in.

619
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 1: For example, what do you mean.

620
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 2: So there's this researcher named Alan Berkowitz, and he has

621
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:57,960
Speaker 2: done a lot of work on something called social norms surveys,

622
00:33:58,000 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 2: and what he has done is kind of looked at

623
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 2: this idea and it started out with work on campus

624
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 2: drinking patterns. Why are you know so many students on

625
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,920
Speaker 2: college campus has been shrinking? And he started doing this

626
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 2: work kind of looking at perceptions of how much other

627
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:17,080
Speaker 2: people are drinking and how that influences one's own drinking.

628
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:19,720
Speaker 2: He then started doing this work looking at sexual violence.

629
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:22,200
Speaker 2: They started working with men, and he started looking at

630
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,080
Speaker 2: you know, if men thought that other men thought sexual

631
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:28,279
Speaker 2: violence was acceptable, would they be more likely to perpetuate it?

632
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:31,359
Speaker 2: And he found that was the case. So some of

633
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 2: his research has found that most men don't support sexual violence,

634
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 2: but many men who don't personally support sexual violence. I

635
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:41,839
Speaker 2: think they're in the minority, but when you let them

636
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 2: know that they're actually in the majority, they're more likely

637
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:46,760
Speaker 2: to speak up and speak out against it and less

638
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:50,880
Speaker 2: likely to commit hostile acts. So I really when I'm

639
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:53,279
Speaker 2: talking to my students, I try to speak to them

640
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:54,920
Speaker 2: as if we're all on the same team. We all

641
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:57,239
Speaker 2: want everyone to feel safe and happy. I know that

642
00:34:57,280 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 2: they have good hearts. I know they can be empathetic,

643
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:01,879
Speaker 2: they can be loving. I know that people of all

644
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 2: genders can be caretakers. Can you stand up for each other?

645
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 2: And I really do think that instead of berating people,

646
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:12,319
Speaker 2: because I think there are so many phrases that I

647
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 2: think are I'm using this word inappropriately but triggering for folks, right,

648
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:19,400
Speaker 2: and toxic masculinity right, it's it's lost all its power

649
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:22,840
Speaker 2: because people get so defensive. Absolutely, So that's not a

650
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:25,239
Speaker 2: phrase I use when I'm talking to boys now. So

651
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 2: instead I speak to positive qualities. We're all in this together,

652
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 2: Bring you on board. Most boys are good and caring,

653
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:34,840
Speaker 2: and let's take that quality and bring it into the

654
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:37,960
Speaker 2: larger world so that you can share your good, positive

655
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 2: qualities with your community and help make it safer for everyone,

656
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:43,279
Speaker 2: which is something I know you want. I mean, that's

657
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:46,240
Speaker 2: the message. And again, you're not going to catch everybody

658
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:50,719
Speaker 2: in that net. But I'm hopeful that it is effective.

659
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 1: And there is that I mean, that's beautiful and it's wonderful.

660
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 1: But then that you're doing that work in a larger

661
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:03,400
Speaker 1: cultural context of an Andrew Tate and a manisphere online,

662
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:09,280
Speaker 1: and I wonder how you educating middle school, high school,

663
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,360
Speaker 1: college students and the role of the internet and in

664
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 1: estelle culture kind of seems to be prevalent online. There's

665
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 1: an onlineness around completely a lot of this. I mean,

666
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 1: when you hear like a manisphere a person talk, they

667
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 1: like say all these like very misogynistic and essentializing things

668
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:28,600
Speaker 1: about what men do and what women do. And so

669
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:33,240
Speaker 1: you're having these interventions in your classrooms and with your students,

670
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:37,080
Speaker 1: but then there's this larger culture that's reinforcing something very

671
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:40,400
Speaker 1: different in I think the context of a backlash. What

672
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:42,279
Speaker 1: do we do in the base of that.

673
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:45,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think this is so tricky right

674
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:49,480
Speaker 2: now because there, you know, we can't police everything that

675
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 2: young people are doing. Obviously that older people are doing too,

676
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:56,640
Speaker 2: I think, at least for kids. I really, you know,

677
00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:58,960
Speaker 2: I believe in children's rights, and I believe in children

678
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 2: having privacy. I also think that parents need to have

679
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:04,240
Speaker 2: a better idea of what their kids are doing online,

680
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:06,400
Speaker 2: and that kind of flies in the face of my

681
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:10,400
Speaker 2: belief in kids independence and growing up and being able

682
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:13,319
Speaker 2: to find themselves in the world. But I do think

683
00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:16,520
Speaker 2: a lot of grown ups do not know those rabbit

684
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:20,280
Speaker 2: holes that kids go down online, and we're going to falter.

685
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:22,920
Speaker 2: And I don't want to constantly be spying on our kids,

686
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:24,719
Speaker 2: but I think that's one thing. Know what your kids

687
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:27,239
Speaker 2: are doing online. And of course lots of parents are

688
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:29,359
Speaker 2: going to reinforce these ideas. We know that we see

689
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:31,320
Speaker 2: what's going on around the country. I mean, the idea

690
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:34,279
Speaker 2: of parents' rights to me is so unselling. Like as

691
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 2: a parent of three kids, I have a seven year old,

692
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 2: a thirteen year old, and a sixteen year old, And

693
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:42,719
Speaker 2: here I am saying, these parents' rights groups are really

694
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:43,960
Speaker 2: really problematic.

695
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:46,240
Speaker 1: In what way? How do you feel parents' rights groups

696
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:47,120
Speaker 1: are problematic?

697
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:48,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, most of them are the parents' rights groups who

698
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:52,760
Speaker 2: are saying things like we don't think that children should

699
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:56,680
Speaker 2: have the atonicity to make decisions about expressing their gender

700
00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:59,719
Speaker 2: identities or sexual orientations. We want to know exactly what

701
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:04,440
Speaker 2: boks they are reading. Those values don't line up with mine.

702
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:08,400
Speaker 2: As a parent, I really want my children to express

703
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:11,279
Speaker 2: themselves in the ways that are true and honest for

704
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:14,200
Speaker 2: who they are. But of course everybody's driven by their

705
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:14,800
Speaker 2: own values.

706
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:17,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, what do you say then, I mean, because I

707
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:20,440
Speaker 1: know there's some attorneys who are arguing for parental rights

708
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:23,640
Speaker 1: when parents do want to be supportive of their trans child,

709
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:26,280
Speaker 1: and the state is Texas, for example, a state of Arkansas.

710
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:29,480
Speaker 1: Mini states are saying that that parent can't be supportive

711
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:32,520
Speaker 1: of their transgender child, that that is child abuse, that

712
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 1: they're threatening to take their child away, you know, if

713
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:36,799
Speaker 1: they're supportive of their trans child.

714
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:39,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think that is tragic. I think

715
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 2: it is tragic that the state is telling loving parents

716
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:46,320
Speaker 2: that they might lose their parental rights for supporting a

717
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:48,440
Speaker 2: child in a way that I believe honors that child

718
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:51,719
Speaker 2: and is the safest, most authentic way to be a child.

719
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, obviously just how at risk our

720
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:58,800
Speaker 2: trans kids are for mental health issues, suicidal ideation, And

721
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:03,360
Speaker 2: I often think back to two studies that were published

722
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:07,719
Speaker 2: in the Journal of American Pediatrics and one study which

723
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:11,880
Speaker 2: found that, yeah, there are significantly higher rates of depression

724
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:16,319
Speaker 2: and suicidal ideation among trans kids. And then the next

725
00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:18,960
Speaker 2: that you found that trans kids who are supported in

726
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:24,640
Speaker 2: their identities have developed mentally normative levels of mental health

727
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:28,759
Speaker 2: concerns to cisgender kids, it is all about the support, right.

728
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:32,279
Speaker 2: It is nothing inherently woven into a child's identity. It

729
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:33,799
Speaker 2: is the world that they live in. So when I

730
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:36,720
Speaker 2: see these things happening in places like Arkansas and Texas,

731
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:42,319
Speaker 2: it's heartbreaking, terrifying that the state would see fit to

732
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,680
Speaker 2: intervene in a loving household that is supporting its children.

733
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:48,360
Speaker 2: So that's what I say when I'm concerned about parental rights.

734
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:50,360
Speaker 2: And that's how the term I think I've seen it

735
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:53,120
Speaker 2: used recently as parents saying, you know, it is my

736
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:57,319
Speaker 2: right to deny my child this kind of intervention and

737
00:39:57,360 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 2: care that I personally believe they.

738
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:03,319
Speaker 1: Need, and access to books and education. And sure, it's

739
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 1: a it's a really intense time right now. I want

740
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:10,319
Speaker 1: to shift gears slightly. But as an educator, now, how

741
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:13,680
Speaker 1: do you see the influence pornography and kids you know

742
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:16,280
Speaker 1: obviously are seeing it very young, very early.

743
00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:20,400
Speaker 2: I mean, you know that there actually was just a

744
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:23,279
Speaker 2: study that came out from an organization who I really

745
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:25,960
Speaker 2: liked called common Sense Media. They look at lots of

746
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:28,560
Speaker 2: media and they kind of assess it and what you're

747
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:30,239
Speaker 2: going to see in it. But they just did a

748
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:33,520
Speaker 2: study and they found that, not surprisingly, seventy five percent

749
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:35,839
Speaker 2: of American kids had seen poor and by the time

750
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:38,040
Speaker 2: they were seventeen, and the majority of them had seen

751
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:39,680
Speaker 2: it by the time they were twelve r. So it's there,

752
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:42,359
Speaker 2: It's out there. People are seeing it, and I think

753
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:44,520
Speaker 2: most of the porn that kids are seeing is what

754
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:47,920
Speaker 2: they can get for free when they google, and a

755
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:50,359
Speaker 2: lot of those images are not necessarily what grown ups

756
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:52,960
Speaker 2: want kids to be seeing. I mean, or it was

757
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 2: a great way to learn about sex. So I think

758
00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:58,279
Speaker 2: that's one of the problems. I think there's totally normal

759
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:00,200
Speaker 2: for kids to be curious about what sex looks like,

760
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 2: especially if you're not getting sex education and this is

761
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 2: your only outlet. So I think it's grown ups. We

762
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:10,840
Speaker 2: just really need to remind kids that parn't isn't sex education.

763
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:14,000
Speaker 2: It's fantasy. You know, you watch Harry Potter and you

764
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:18,160
Speaker 2: know that people can't really past spells or fly on brooms.

765
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:21,720
Speaker 2: But I think a lot of young people somehow forget

766
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 2: that when they watch porn and might think this is

767
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:27,480
Speaker 2: an instruction manual and there's been work done on you know,

768
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:34,440
Speaker 2: what mainstream porn normalizes with kids. I think that the

769
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 2: wrong approach is to scare kids. This is going to

770
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:41,760
Speaker 2: become an addiction. It's going to destroy sex for you forever.

771
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 2: A lot of states have declared porn a public health crisis.

772
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:48,440
Speaker 2: Like I think that alarmist of you is not helping kids.

773
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:51,040
Speaker 1: I think like a critical relationship to it. It's like

774
00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:52,799
Speaker 1: it feels like to me, it's like, how do we

775
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:56,080
Speaker 1: have a critical relationship to any media that we consume, right,

776
00:41:56,160 --> 00:42:00,319
Speaker 1: so that we foster critical thinking and adults and children. Right.

777
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:03,640
Speaker 1: So in the context of sex education, it would be like, Okay,

778
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:07,279
Speaker 1: this porn is doing this is this is being represented.

779
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 1: But this could be an adult fantasy, it could be

780
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:14,440
Speaker 1: a patriarchal fantasy. I mean, this might not be something

781
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:16,600
Speaker 1: that feels good to you just because you saw it

782
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 1: in a video. Just developing some critical awareness around it,

783
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:23,160
Speaker 1: I think it's the only thing we could probably do.

784
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 2: And I think, like you said, like having that critical

785
00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:27,800
Speaker 2: lens for all media is super important. Yeah, right, we

786
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:29,879
Speaker 2: don't want to just be a sponge. We want to

787
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:34,280
Speaker 2: kind of analyze critique. So much of what you encounter

788
00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:38,560
Speaker 2: is really sending a message from one lens. But I

789
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:41,279
Speaker 2: do think that there's just so much out there that

790
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:43,840
Speaker 2: it's really hard to know how much kids are consuming

791
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 2: and the messages they're getting, and what they're looking at

792
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:48,640
Speaker 2: critically and what they're integrating into their lives.

793
00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:52,960
Speaker 1: What about social media? And you know there's studies that

794
00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:56,960
Speaker 1: Instagram is, you know, makes girls hate themselves more. I

795
00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:00,520
Speaker 1: think the internal research on Facebook, and I know for

796
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:03,439
Speaker 1: me in my life, there was a relationship between how

797
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:07,920
Speaker 1: good I felt about myself and how empowered I felt

798
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:13,279
Speaker 1: to say no to situations that didn't feel good.

799
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, much like kind of all the Internet, I feel

800
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:19,560
Speaker 2: like it's such a mixed bag. I think social media

801
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:22,719
Speaker 2: connects people. It helps you find your people. If you're

802
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:26,319
Speaker 2: that quirky person who wherever you're living, you don't have

803
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 2: your people, this can help you fine you know that

804
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:32,440
Speaker 2: group who really gets you and who sees you for

805
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 2: who you are. And like so many other things, there

806
00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:39,000
Speaker 2: are obviously the harmful corners. And just like you're saying, yeah,

807
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:40,799
Speaker 2: we know that it can do a real number on

808
00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 2: people's body image and self esteem. That it can you know,

809
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:47,239
Speaker 2: when you're hiding behind the screen, you can say really

810
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:50,560
Speaker 2: unkind things. So those two things, I think you know

811
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:53,520
Speaker 2: can both be true at the same time. But certainly,

812
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:58,640
Speaker 2: you know, revenge porn, sharing people's pictures, you know, using

813
00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:03,240
Speaker 2: AI to kind of digitally put somebody's face on somebody

814
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:05,640
Speaker 2: else's body, having sex, like, all of that stuff is

815
00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:08,840
Speaker 2: really upsetting and scary for a lot of people.

816
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:12,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, and just the whole AI of it, all the

817
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:18,160
Speaker 1: deep fakes, that's a whole new sort of frontier that's happening, Like, Brian, Yeah,

818
00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:20,880
Speaker 1: there's so much more that we can talk about, but

819
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:23,040
Speaker 1: we need to wrap up. I would really suggest that

820
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:27,440
Speaker 1: folks read your book, Good Sexual Citizenship. There's so much

821
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:29,840
Speaker 1: in here that I wanted to get to that we

822
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:35,040
Speaker 1: didn't get to today, and they're wonderful ways that you

823
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:38,120
Speaker 1: offer for us to think in a really complicated way

824
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:42,880
Speaker 1: and educate ourselves and our kids. So I hope this

825
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:50,040
Speaker 1: conversation will continue. I like to end the podcast with

826
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:53,120
Speaker 1: the question that comes from my own trauma resilience therapy,

827
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:55,759
Speaker 1: and this question is what else is true? And it

828
00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:58,239
Speaker 1: basically just means when the world is on fire, when

829
00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:03,600
Speaker 1: you are distressed, right that and everything seems horrible. That

830
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:06,120
Speaker 1: can certainly be true. But there's something else that is

831
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:10,960
Speaker 1: also true that is resilient and wonderful, something that can

832
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:14,799
Speaker 1: get you through, something that is wonderful and amazing, and

833
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:16,720
Speaker 1: that can be a resource in your life. So Ellen

834
00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:19,880
Speaker 1: freeddrikes today for you what else is true?

835
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:22,000
Speaker 2: I will tell you what else is true. For me.

836
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:25,120
Speaker 2: It's that when I graduated high school in the nineteen nineties,

837
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:31,040
Speaker 2: sexual violence the past is normal. That didn't have names.

838
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:32,719
Speaker 2: It was just an everyday thing. I think now we

839
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:36,120
Speaker 2: have names, and now we have a lot more understanding

840
00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:40,799
Speaker 2: and support for kids who are being bullied, tormented, or persecuted.

841
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:42,880
Speaker 2: I know, the outside world, like you're saying, there's so

842
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:46,719
Speaker 2: much backlash against so many young people who are already marginalized.

843
00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:49,440
Speaker 2: But I also think of greater awareness and that some

844
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 2: of these things that passed is normal. We have passed

845
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:54,640
Speaker 2: that point. And you know, I know that we are

846
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:57,160
Speaker 2: in a two steps forward, hopefully not more than one

847
00:45:57,160 --> 00:45:59,160
Speaker 2: step back. But I think some of those steps forward

848
00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 2: we are not going to lose.

849
00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:05,680
Speaker 1: That's beautiful, that's wonderful, And I think it's what that

850
00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:08,799
Speaker 1: reminded me of is that even as the backlash is

851
00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:13,160
Speaker 1: coming ferociously, that it is so important to hold.

852
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:13,880
Speaker 2: On to.

853
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:20,919
Speaker 1: My narrative, to my values, and not allow myself. I think,

854
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 1: as a marginalized person, it's really easy to allow ourselves

855
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:26,680
Speaker 1: to be defined by our pressors, by the people who

856
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:28,720
Speaker 1: want to take our rights away, and let them set

857
00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:31,480
Speaker 1: the tone and the terms of the conversation. So much

858
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:33,600
Speaker 1: of what I've been trying to do and media lately

859
00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:36,719
Speaker 1: is take back the conversation from those people who are

860
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:41,239
Speaker 1: wanting you to take rights away and refusing to have

861
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:44,759
Speaker 1: the conversation on their terms. Even as there might be

862
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:51,120
Speaker 1: laws criminalizing bodily autonomy, that we must not allow them

863
00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:54,600
Speaker 1: to set the narrative. That there's a truer narrative that

864
00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 1: we must hold on to and fight for.

865
00:46:57,719 --> 00:46:59,880
Speaker 2: And I think, just like I was saying, I believe,

866
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:04,920
Speaker 2: and research shows that more men are opposed to sexual

867
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:08,759
Speaker 2: violence than not. I think more people are on the

868
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:12,400
Speaker 2: side of maintaining rights for folks than pushing back. But

869
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:14,239
Speaker 2: those people who are pushing back are so loud and

870
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:16,360
Speaker 2: they're route organized. So I think, just like you're saying

871
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:19,000
Speaker 2: you need to reclaim the narrative and push back against

872
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:22,600
Speaker 2: the pushback, because there are more people out there who

873
00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:25,080
Speaker 2: want to do that, and they just need to have

874
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:26,879
Speaker 2: a container in which they can.

875
00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:30,080
Speaker 1: Yeah and feel and have language and have ways to

876
00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:32,120
Speaker 1: do it. I like a lot of people don't know how,

877
00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:35,360
Speaker 1: So that's what you're doing, and hopefully that's what we've

878
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:38,760
Speaker 1: done today. And thank you so much. I'm so grateful

879
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:39,640
Speaker 1: for this conversation.

880
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:41,920
Speaker 2: Oh well, thank you so much for having me on.

881
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:43,440
Speaker 2: It's such a delight to talk to you.

882
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:53,479
Speaker 1: I love that Ellen defines good sexual citizenship as all

883
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:59,120
Speaker 1: sex should be wanted by all parties and enjoyed by

884
00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:04,080
Speaker 1: all parties. There's something really simple about that, and we

885
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:10,680
Speaker 1: got into some really complicated, nuanced, tricky territory in that conversation.

886
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:14,440
Speaker 1: But at the end of the day, all sex should

887
00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:18,520
Speaker 1: be wanted by all parties and enjoyed by all parties.

888
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:25,040
Speaker 1: That's it. That's it. It is possible for survivors to

889
00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:31,000
Speaker 1: heal and to have wonderful, healthy sex lives. I'm so

890
00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 1: grateful at fifty that I have one. And I love

891
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:38,120
Speaker 1: what Ellen said at the end that now there's language

892
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:40,399
Speaker 1: for it. There are ways now for us to have

893
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:44,759
Speaker 1: this conversation that we didn't have twenty years ago. So

894
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:49,920
Speaker 1: with open hearts and love and empathy, I hope that

895
00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:54,200
Speaker 1: we can begin to use this language, use these tools

896
00:48:54,360 --> 00:49:00,000
Speaker 1: so that we can have these conversations, shift our mindsets

897
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:03,360
Speaker 1: and our behavior. Is an end a culture of sexual violence.

898
00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:16,759
Speaker 1: That is my hope, that is my prayer. Thank you

899
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:20,680
Speaker 1: so much for listening to The Laverne Cox Show. Please rate, review, subscribe,

900
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:22,960
Speaker 1: and share with everyone you know. You can find me

901
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:26,799
Speaker 1: on Instagram and Twitter aka x at Laverne Cox and

902
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:30,839
Speaker 1: on Facebook at Laverne Cox for reel. Until next time,

903
00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:36,279
Speaker 1: stay in the love. The Laverne Cox Show is a

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00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 1: production of Shondaland Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio. For more

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00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:45,360
Speaker 1: podcasts from Shondaland Audio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast,

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00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:47,720
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.