1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,720 Speaker 1: Welcome to River Cafe, Table four, a production of iHeartRadio 2 00:00:03,760 --> 00:00:05,040 Speaker 1: and Adamis Studios. 3 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 2: Okay, all right, let's go today. Okay, Today, as we 4 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:26,520 Speaker 2: sit here in the River Cafe on a busy Monday lunch, 5 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 2: I'm joined by someone I know rather well, my son 6 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 2: Rue Rogers. 7 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 3: You were born in. 8 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 2: Paris, and so would you say your earliest memories are 9 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 2: of living in Paris? 10 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:46,560 Speaker 4: I think my earliest memories are eating food in Paris, 11 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:50,519 Speaker 4: and my earliest memories are of walking into restaurants, and 12 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 4: I remember going into Benoir and sort of having stories 13 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 4: about how the Pompadou Center was designed there. From the 14 00:00:57,120 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 4: earliest stages, I think I learned quite quickly only a 15 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 4: passion and love for food, but that you booked the 16 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 4: restaurant first, and you found the restaurant first, and then 17 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:07,399 Speaker 4: you figured out who you were going to invite and 18 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 4: what you were going to talk about. 19 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:11,760 Speaker 3: And so I always felt so growing. 20 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:14,480 Speaker 4: Up that like it really was an exploration, not a 21 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 4: convenience or a necessity, but an exploration. 22 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 2: And so do you think more of your memories at 23 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 2: Paris are beating out rather than home cooking. 24 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 4: I think I still think to this day that like 25 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:29,200 Speaker 4: really great French markets, you know. And I actually probably 26 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:33,679 Speaker 4: remember better walking through the French market, you know, on 27 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 4: Boulevard a Spy with you and Dad, And I remember 28 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 4: riching dad buying a chicken, a roast chicken, and they 29 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:43,760 Speaker 4: put it in those sort of silver foil bags and 30 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:45,760 Speaker 4: there were no knives and forks, and he would just 31 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 4: literally kept his hand in there and we were just 32 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:50,400 Speaker 4: the three of us were we were just eating chunks 33 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 4: of chicken as you pulled it off, and it was 34 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 4: the most delicious thing. And then when we needed dessert, 35 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 4: you bought some raspberries and we just took the raspberries 36 00:01:58,600 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 4: out of the cotton. 37 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 3: That was love back then, and it was beautiful and 38 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 3: I remember it very well. 39 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 2: Do you still go to markets and shop and eat 40 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 2: that way? 41 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 4: Everyone asked me how I know how to cook? And 42 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 4: I don't think I know how to cook. I know 43 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 4: how to shop, and I think it's two totally different things. 44 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:17,000 Speaker 4: If you love food, you have to love the ingredients 45 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:19,679 Speaker 4: and you never go out shopping for what you want 46 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:22,079 Speaker 4: to make. You let the shopping define what you're going 47 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 4: to make. And that was the biggest lesson I ever 48 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 4: got growing up about food was It's all about the 49 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 4: quality of the ingredient. I think having a plate of 50 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 4: amazingly right tomatoes is as hard to cook as a 51 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:40,520 Speaker 4: real shit, because you have to know whether those tomatoes 52 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 4: are going to be good, and you have to know 53 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:44,639 Speaker 4: how to let those flavors come out. And so it's 54 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 4: not about the complexity of the recipe. It's about understanding ingredients. 55 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:51,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, so that is very to do with seasonal food. 56 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 2: You say hello to a vegetable that has just arrived, 57 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:57,080 Speaker 2: and at the same time you're saying goodbye. You know too, 58 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 2: I remember in Paris you might too. Ellen's came in. 59 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:02,920 Speaker 2: We always knew that they were going to come, and 60 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 2: then you know, Fennel would go. 61 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 3: Do you remember. 62 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 4: I remember living in London and how you would come 63 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 4: back from Paris if I hadn't been able to join 64 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 4: you on your visit with tons of food from the market. 65 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 4: I mean asparagus. I remember white asparagus coming to London. 66 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:20,119 Speaker 4: I don't think we'd ever seen it in the UK, 67 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:22,960 Speaker 4: Like you couldn't get white expers. You'd come back with 68 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 4: white spagus or chev that was just seasonal and just 69 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:27,360 Speaker 4: being completed. 70 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:28,919 Speaker 3: But I just have this image of. 71 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 4: You coming back on a plane back then, right, No, 72 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 4: no trains, no boats, like you would fly back with 73 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 4: bags fold but you'd brought back just from the market. 74 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 2: It's not very popular on the plane with smelly cheese Rose. 75 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 2: And you know, the story about Rose Gray was that 76 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 2: she once reserved a seat for you know, pumpkin and 77 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 2: put it in club and she sat in the economy. 78 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 3: You know. 79 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 2: Actually, as I'm just mentioning Rose, do you have memories 80 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 2: of Rose cooking with Rose? 81 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 3: Yeah? 82 00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 4: Well, I worked at the River Cafe when I was 83 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 4: I think seven teen and eighteen, and so working for 84 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 4: your mother and her partner and her best friend is 85 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:10,560 Speaker 4: an interesting experience for your first job, somewhat terrifying and 86 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:13,840 Speaker 4: fast learning. And what's interesting was, you know, Rose was 87 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:18,279 Speaker 4: very exacting and very demanding in what we had to 88 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 4: do and how we made it and how we delivered it, 89 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 4: but very very charming as well, and someone wanted you 90 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:26,600 Speaker 4: to live up to being the best best eater you 91 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:28,360 Speaker 4: could be. She was curious about food. 92 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 2: And if Rose was an influence, going back to Richard 93 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:35,599 Speaker 2: taking the chicken out of the bag with his fingers 94 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 2: in the market, do you think Richard was an influence 95 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 2: in your food life, your father. 96 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:46,159 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I think in a way we all 97 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:50,920 Speaker 4: love food because Richard was a great eater. And I 98 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:53,360 Speaker 4: do really think that being a great eater is a 99 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:57,360 Speaker 4: really fundamental skill. It can be very frustrating great because 100 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 4: everything is being analyzed all the time, but it is 101 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 4: a very beautiful thing because you're constantly searching for that 102 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 4: new taste and that new experience and anything else is 103 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 4: not exciting for that. I mean, I remember the Michelin 104 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:18,039 Speaker 4: Guide with yellow post it notes and written notes, and 105 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 4: I mean like obsession and then like going into bookstores 106 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:23,599 Speaker 4: and saying, we found this restaurant, but we haven't been 107 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:26,599 Speaker 4: do you recommend it? Like the amount of diligence we 108 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:29,920 Speaker 4: did just to have lunch because Dad wanted a great 109 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 4: meal and you wanted to make that possible. 110 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:34,280 Speaker 3: But you you know, and we did it. 111 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 4: And so I think a lot of that of you know, 112 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 4: curiosity and food cooking and food quality comes to Dad's 113 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 4: real keenness and passion for eating. 114 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 2: Actually, it's interested to say that, because I do remember 115 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 2: that we used to He had this theory. I don't 116 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 2: know where it came from, that if you wanted to 117 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:52,600 Speaker 2: find a good restaurant. You always asked a bookstore that 118 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 2: there was a people who loved books would probably know 119 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 2: where to eat. 120 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 4: Do you remember when Richard went skiing with Bo, my brother, 121 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:05,160 Speaker 4: and they bought asparagus and they had to figure out 122 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 4: how to cook it right? And Dad looked at it 123 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:11,239 Speaker 4: from an engineering architectural point of view, and he decided 124 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:13,839 Speaker 4: at the top of the sparagus were narrower and the 125 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 4: bottom of the asparagus were wider, So he cut them 126 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 4: up into pieces because the bottom, the wider pieces would 127 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:22,479 Speaker 4: need more time in the water than the top pieces. 128 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 4: And sort of right, you know, what's the sparagus standing up? 129 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 3: That's right? So that was that. 130 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:33,200 Speaker 4: Dad took a very sort of like you know, pragmatic 131 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 4: point of view on cooking. 132 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 2: This is probably a question like I only can ask 133 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:40,279 Speaker 2: you on the series, but tell me about cooking with 134 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 2: your brothers. 135 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 3: Cooking with them? 136 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:45,040 Speaker 5: Are you trying to preserve our relationship. 137 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 3: About Ben? 138 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 4: Zad and Ape are all amazing cooks and very very different. 139 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 4: Ben is very precise and very responsible in terms of 140 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 4: the planet and what he's cooking and how much of 141 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 4: it he's cooking. 142 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:09,280 Speaker 3: But it always tastes perfect. 143 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 4: My only like my standing image probably of like not 144 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 4: just this person, but my entire lifetime of food was 145 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:22,119 Speaker 4: going to stay at Zad's house and him hanging over 146 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 4: a duck with a hair dryer and drying duck for Christmas. 147 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 4: An Abe is an explorer and you never quite know 148 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 4: what he's going to eat. I do not like surf 149 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 4: and turf and meat and fish together seem wrong to me. 150 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 4: But when I go to Abe's house, not only am 151 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 4: I going to have scallops with blood sausage, but it's 152 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 4: going to be delicious. So he is always the king 153 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 4: of surprise. And so my brothers are all very different 154 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 4: in the way. 155 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 3: That they cook. For all a wonderful experience as well. 156 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 2: What about American influence, because you know, I'm American and 157 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 2: every summer, I think your first flight to the United 158 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 2: States was when you were four, So you know what 159 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 2: were those summers, like, what did you eat? What? What 160 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 2: was the American influence as a child, and then we 161 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:17,679 Speaker 2: can talk about later about as an adult. 162 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 4: Well, I think that in general, there were four things 163 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 4: that I can remember that we really loved eating in America. 164 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 4: It went hot pastriami, sandwich, corn in a cob steak, 165 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:32,680 Speaker 4: and lobster, and I think there were muscles that we 166 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:35,560 Speaker 4: used to pick off the beach, but unfortunately, with global warming, 167 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 4: those muscles have gone smaller and that's not possible. But 168 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:40,880 Speaker 4: we used to love those things again because there's such 169 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 4: strong taste, Like the lovester would come out of the 170 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:44,320 Speaker 4: sea and you would just boil it and you would 171 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:44,559 Speaker 4: eat it. 172 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:46,560 Speaker 3: And the steak, I mean, it was just you didn't 173 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 3: have anything like it. 174 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 4: And then you know, going to the Carnegie Deli and 175 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:53,559 Speaker 4: having a hot pastriarami sandwich with strong mustard was delicious. 176 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:58,200 Speaker 4: I think that, you know, the real American influence was 177 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 4: not in food though. I think the real influence was 178 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 4: in you, mum, and bringing over the idea that food 179 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 4: could be used in a sort of to make you 180 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 4: feel at home, right that like, if food comes to 181 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 4: the table, you will instinctly want to serve it to 182 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 4: other people, even if it's not your house, Ruthy, you 183 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:20,319 Speaker 4: will want to help and serve others. And this notion 184 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 4: that food could come with such incredible generosity and warmth 185 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:28,200 Speaker 4: was something that definitely came from your business and what 186 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 4: I think makes the River Cafe and what you do 187 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:34,760 Speaker 4: so extraory is that you only say yes and yes. 188 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:37,720 Speaker 4: It's such a nice word. It's a beautiful word, even 189 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 4: when you might not be able to carry through it. Yes, 190 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 4: it's still a nice place to start. 191 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:43,320 Speaker 5: It's a beautiful answer. 192 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 2: So, Rue, you went to university in New York, you 193 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 2: went to Columbia. What was it like being a student 194 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 2: in terms of food? 195 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:56,120 Speaker 4: Well, I think the most important thing I learned as 196 00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 4: a student at university was the value of a slice 197 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 4: of pizza, because we lived on pizza, and it's delicious. 198 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:04,839 Speaker 4: New York pizza is delicious. It's a very different thing. 199 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 4: It can be a snack, can me. Meal has to 200 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:09,200 Speaker 4: be eaten the right way. The first time I ate 201 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 4: slice of pizza, I didn't fold it and I kept 202 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 4: it angled down and it dripped grease all over my clothes. 203 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:17,839 Speaker 4: So I remember very much culturally having to get used 204 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 4: to the notion of fast food but also good food. 205 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 4: And I would cook for people all the time, and 206 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 4: I love that. And again I learned about New York 207 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 4: ingredients and I learned about where to buy what, and 208 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:31,240 Speaker 4: it was, you know, it was really exciting. 209 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 2: Do you remember what you would cook for those genners 210 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 2: with your friends? 211 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 3: So the thing that I. 212 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 4: The way I made friends as a child was that 213 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 4: we would have parties and then when everybody got a 214 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:44,839 Speaker 4: little bit too drunk, I would make pussa with tomato sauce, right, 215 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:46,560 Speaker 4: And so that was a very useful thing that I 216 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 4: learned very early on was that it was very good 217 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:51,200 Speaker 4: to have something that you could make quickly and easily 218 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:53,840 Speaker 4: and would probably help soak up some of the alcohol 219 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 4: and everybody's system. That has continued to with me ever since. 220 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 4: Now I seve it to my kids. It is always 221 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:02,719 Speaker 4: something that you can get going very very quickly. But 222 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 4: I would cook when I was in in college, whatever 223 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:10,720 Speaker 4: was fresh. My favorite meal was muscles and spicy tomato sauce. 224 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 4: So I'd buy muscles and I'd combine that with a 225 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 4: tomato sauce. And the other thing I really love about 226 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 4: New York, which I experienced a lot of when I 227 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 4: went to college, is you never self conscious of eating 228 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 4: on your own right. People are always stopping and eating 229 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 4: and eating by themselves. And that's something very very nice. 230 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 4: You know, you see people with a book in a 231 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:30,880 Speaker 4: diner reading. That's that's a really beautiful thing. 232 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:34,200 Speaker 2: Today. Do you take your children to restaurants do you 233 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 2: work in restaurants? How do you feel about going into 234 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 2: a restaurant? What do you look for? That's a multiple 235 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 2: question to ask a multiple question. Ever since Jeff Goldblum 236 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:46,559 Speaker 2: told you I could ask a multiple. 237 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:51,800 Speaker 4: Questions, I have always used restaurants as public space, and 238 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 4: I like to move. I need to be around other 239 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 4: people when I think, and there's nowhere better to be 240 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 4: around other people and surprise by people then restaurants. It's 241 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 4: about a certain level of discomfort because what you're really 242 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 4: doing is you're putting yourself in somebody else's hands in 243 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:11,880 Speaker 4: a restaurant that you don't know whether they're going to 244 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:14,000 Speaker 4: cook something the way you want it cooked, or whether 245 00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 4: it should be good, with people that you've never met before, 246 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 4: seen before, and not knowing what conversations you might have, 247 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 4: and you're taking a risk, right, and in that risk 248 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 4: comes really beautiful things when it really pays off, when 249 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 4: you've really had a meal that surprises you. Right, that's 250 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 4: sort of like unexpected serendipity, right, which you could never 251 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 4: get from delivery. 252 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 5: You're never going to get. 253 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 3: Serendipity when something is delivered to your hop. Right. 254 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 4: You get serendipity when you take a walk down an 255 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 4: alley and you find a restaurant and you just walk in, 256 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:46,200 Speaker 4: and one time out of ten it will just turn 257 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 4: out to be amazing. 258 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 3: And when you discover. 259 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 4: That, in that risk, you found something that's truly creative 260 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 4: and truly rewarding. 261 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:54,439 Speaker 3: And that's what I'm always looking for. 262 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 2: Do you have a memory of food in terms of 263 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:01,720 Speaker 2: relationship or impressing someone? 264 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:04,440 Speaker 4: I fell in love with my wife ever a dover Soul. 265 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 4: We were at Sha George restaurant and we had only 266 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 4: just met properly, and I ordered a dover Sole and 267 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 4: as it came fully on the bone, she and I 268 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 4: were talking and without taking a. 269 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:22,679 Speaker 5: Break, I fillaid the fish and. 270 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:26,320 Speaker 4: Ate it, and little to my knowledge that somehow really 271 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 4: impressed her. And she found that sort of creative skill 272 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 4: with my knife and fork and devowing that she George 273 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 4: dover Sol extremely sexy and allurin and a year later 274 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 4: we were married. 275 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 2: You've actually lived in many places and right now you're 276 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 2: living in Africa. How does that influence your food? 277 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 4: Yeah? Travels, I mean every where I travel, I obsessively 278 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 4: look out for the most local restaurant. 279 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 5: So we don't have mechlin guides anymore. 280 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 4: But we have the web, and we also have friends 281 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:12,400 Speaker 4: and ways to make friends, and I look for the 282 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:16,199 Speaker 4: most authentic food there is. When I went to Ethiopia 283 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 4: a couple of years ago, you know, my add taxi 284 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 4: driver who picked me up in the airport, stayed with 285 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 4: me for three days, and the best meals I had 286 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 4: were in his family home, and they were extraordinary. 287 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 3: I'll them forget what were they like. 288 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 4: My favorite actually was when he took me to the 289 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 4: market and it's the meat market in Addie Adaba, and 290 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:41,680 Speaker 4: there are just enormous carcasses of meat hanging from the 291 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 4: top and people shooting flies away from them, and you 292 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 4: walk in and he says, we're going to eat here. 293 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 4: So I said, okay, just choose your meat. And so 294 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 4: I choose a couple of cuts of meat. I even 295 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:58,600 Speaker 4: choose some sweetbreads to be adventurous, and I go terrific 296 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 4: and they cut it off and they take it away. 297 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:02,360 Speaker 4: We go sit down on the back and it comes 298 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 4: back in literally ninety seconds later, and they go, God, 299 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 4: they cook it quick here and it was raw. And 300 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:12,080 Speaker 4: they serve all those meats raw with a spicy chili 301 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:17,239 Speaker 4: sauce or nut sauce and a really amazing Ethiopian coffee 302 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 4: and I was there with everyone. 303 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 3: And we ate it and it was amazing. 304 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 2: You're working in South Africa, what is the food like 305 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 2: in Johannesburg. 306 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:28,120 Speaker 4: The food that I've had in South Africa is the 307 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 4: truly South African food is delicious. They have extraordinary meat 308 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 4: in South Africa. The steak is exceptional. A lot of 309 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 4: stews and so a lot of meats cooked in tomato 310 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 4: sauce which is amazing, and some basic grains like the 311 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 4: equivalent of polento as well. 312 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 2: So you talk about being very dventurous with your food, 313 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 2: eating raw sweetbreads and Ethiopia and traveling to you know, 314 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 2: all over the world in Nepal and eating this food, 315 00:15:57,920 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 2: But do cook that at home? 316 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 4: I don't know the ingredients well enough and I don't 317 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 4: know where to go shopping for them, and therefore I 318 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 4: would rather eat out and have somebody who does know 319 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 4: them and knows how to cook them. So at home 320 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 4: we eat pretty western soule food. My wife, Bernie, though, 321 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:18,960 Speaker 4: who is Chinese American, makes the most amazing Chinese and 322 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 4: Asian food as well as Indian food as well. 323 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 2: What does she make She. 324 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 4: Makes incredible dumplings and wantons, which we all love and cherish. 325 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 4: I mean, what's interesting is that there is very few 326 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 4: things in Western food that is completely original, right, and 327 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 4: so we all get influenced by everyone else. So an 328 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 4: amazing wanton is actually like an amazing ravioli, or she 329 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 4: would correct me and say, an amazing ravioli is like 330 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 4: an amazing wanton. Since China has existed and been cooking 331 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 4: this food for quite a long a lot longer, which 332 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:54,360 Speaker 4: is to say, it's really based about the quality of 333 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 4: the pasta or the wrapper, as they say, and how 334 00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 4: light that is and how thin that is, and how 335 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 4: light can you get it, and keeping the fitting as 336 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 4: simple as possible, and if the chibes are good, it 337 00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 4: makes the one time. And so again you're very dependent 338 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 4: on fresh quality ingredients. 339 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 2: You've worked in NGOs, You've written a book, What's Mine 340 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:21,359 Speaker 2: Is Yours, about sustainability and sharing and consumers society. You've 341 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 2: traveled to Afghanistan and Nepal, working with people of different cultures. 342 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 2: Do you feel that the politics of food is something 343 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:33,680 Speaker 2: that interests you. 344 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:38,639 Speaker 4: I'm less interested in the politics of food at the 345 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:40,639 Speaker 4: micro level, which is not to say I don't think 346 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:43,480 Speaker 4: it's important, but like the idea of the organic movement 347 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:47,680 Speaker 4: and such, is less important to me. At the macro level, 348 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:49,639 Speaker 4: which is around food security. 349 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 3: I'm very interested in it. 350 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:54,919 Speaker 4: We talk a lot about overpopulation, but what we, in 351 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:57,360 Speaker 4: my opinion, should really be talking about is food security. 352 00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:01,359 Speaker 4: There is more than enough resources in the world to 353 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 4: feed more people on this planet, but we choose politically 354 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:08,920 Speaker 4: not to feed those people. We choose to not send 355 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 4: grain to places that it's needed. We choose to have 356 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 4: cows and dairy where we don't need more milk. 357 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 2: Right. 358 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 4: We choose not to provide loans to small holder farmers 359 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 4: in Africa and India, And so we make choices every 360 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:25,400 Speaker 4: day around food security and providing food security to billions 361 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 4: of people, right that have nothing to do with whether 362 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:30,480 Speaker 4: we actually have the ability as a planet to sustain 363 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:34,399 Speaker 4: those resources we could And I passionately believe this feed 364 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:38,199 Speaker 4: everybody in a healthy, equitable way that is good for 365 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 4: the planet. 366 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 3: Should we choose to it's a choice. 367 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 2: Is we the worst as we developed nations? Who is 368 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:46,919 Speaker 2: when you say we could feed the planet? Who is 369 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:47,639 Speaker 2: the we? 370 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:51,440 Speaker 4: I mean? Food security is really an issue that's defined 371 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 4: by Western powers and Western governments, and if we wanted 372 00:18:56,320 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 4: to again and remove subsidies and read this stribute food, 373 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 4: we could solve food security forever. 374 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:04,920 Speaker 2: Right. 375 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 4: I think looking at innovation to solve this problem is 376 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 4: a really interesting question. And I think if you look 377 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 4: at things like impossible meats, it's very exciting. I mean, 378 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:21,639 Speaker 4: the transformation to our ecosystem by removing hamburger meat or 379 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:25,879 Speaker 4: beef from McDonald's would be huge, right, I mean, that 380 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 4: would just just change the world. But again, while as 381 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 4: much as I like the idea of innovation and I 382 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 4: believe in it, it is people, not technology that need 383 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 4: to make changes, and those people are leaders and governments, 384 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:42,439 Speaker 4: and it starts at you know, as much as I 385 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 4: believe in, you know, becoming a vegetarian, you know, talk 386 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 4: to talk, walk to walk, I really believe that if 387 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:52,880 Speaker 4: political leaders came together and made hard choices and decisions 388 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:55,800 Speaker 4: in a collective way, we could solve most of problems 389 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:57,440 Speaker 4: as well as innovation. 390 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:03,440 Speaker 2: So rue, you've talked about comfort and food, the comfort 391 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:08,720 Speaker 2: of food at home, the discomfort of experienced food often 392 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 2: in the restaurant, the comfort of food of cooking for 393 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 2: your children. You use that word very often in describing 394 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:18,120 Speaker 2: what you love about food and what you look for 395 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:22,960 Speaker 2: in food. And I was wondering, as I've asked everyone, 396 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:27,399 Speaker 2: if you needed comfort from food, not the taste or 397 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 2: the excitement or the adventure, what would be your comfort food. 398 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:37,359 Speaker 4: Well, I am very, very privileged because it's not a 399 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 4: question of what do I eat, it's a question of 400 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:41,240 Speaker 4: where do I go. And I go home to see 401 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:43,399 Speaker 4: my mom and anything she cooks. 402 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:49,959 Speaker 3: You're so happy. 403 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:52,200 Speaker 2: It's really nice. 404 00:20:55,280 --> 00:21:04,479 Speaker 4: You remember remember the mission of book. 405 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 2: To visit the online shop of the River Cafe. Go 406 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 2: to Shoptharrivercafe dot co dot uk. 407 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 1: River Cafe Table four is a production of iHeartRadio and 408 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:22,879 Speaker 1: Adamized Studios. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 409 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:26,000 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.