1 00:00:01,840 --> 00:00:06,360 Speaker 1: Now from our nation's capital. This is Bloomberg Sound On. 2 00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:10,280 Speaker 1: There's no one more qualified to leave the Department of 3 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:12,719 Speaker 1: Defense than Mark Esther. Well, thank you, Mr President, for 4 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:15,600 Speaker 1: your kind words, for your confidence in me, and for 5 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:20,440 Speaker 1: this incredible opportunity. Bloomberg Sound On, Politics, Policy and Perspective 6 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: from DC's top Name. President Trump endorsed me because he 7 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:25,960 Speaker 1: said I was smart, top, and I will never let 8 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 1: you down. Memon has flip flopped on every major issue. 9 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:31,920 Speaker 1: He essentially said that he was worried about the pro 10 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 1: life movement. This is a tougher pick for him. Bloomberg 11 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 1: Sound On with Joe Matthew on Bloomberg Radio. Welcome to 12 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 1: the Fastest Hour in Politics, a special edition today for 13 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:48,839 Speaker 1: sound On, as we speak with former Secretary of Defense 14 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:54,240 Speaker 1: Mark Esper, hired and fired by Donald Trump, and soon 15 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 1: here we'll be talking with him about his new book. 16 00:00:57,240 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: We'll talk about his experience running the Pentagon during the 17 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 1: Ump era, his decision to protect the country from within 18 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:07,040 Speaker 1: rather than speak out, and his eventual firing via Twitter. 19 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:10,560 Speaker 1: An extended conversation coming up with a former secretary. Later, 20 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 1: we're joined by Bloomberg's Eric Larson to bring you inside 21 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 1: his conversation with Donald Trump about the lawyer who's bringing 22 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:21,200 Speaker 1: a more aggressive defense for the former president. And we'll 23 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 1: have analysis today from Bloomberg Politics contributor Jeanie Schanzano will 24 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:29,240 Speaker 1: talk as well with Bloomberg National Security correspondent Dan Flatley. 25 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 1: It was July inside the Oval Office. The US Senate 26 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 1: had just confirmed the new Secretary of Defense, Mark Esper 27 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:43,760 Speaker 1: vote of eight. President Trump brought the fanfare, set up 28 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:45,919 Speaker 1: a podium right next to his desk in the Oval 29 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 1: to speak. He even had Supreme Court Justice Alito on 30 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: hand for the swearing in. The President spoke to the reporters, 31 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 1: the family members of Mark Asper in the room. Here's 32 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 1: what it sounded like. There's no one more qualified to 33 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 1: lead the Department of Defense. Instant Mark Asper, a West 34 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 1: Point graduate, great student. Actually. Secretary Asper served our military 35 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: for twenty one years, including in the Gulf War. He 36 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 1: also advanced US national security and government and in private sector, 37 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:18,079 Speaker 1: most recently as Secretary of the Army, where he played 38 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:21,240 Speaker 1: a critical role training and equipping our armed forces. That's 39 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 1: where I got to know Mark. And there was nobody 40 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 1: that did a better job than Mark. And there's nobody 41 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 1: that loves it more than mark and thank you very much. 42 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 1: Sounds pretty good. Secretary Asper would be fired the following year. 43 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 1: The former Army secretary says he started writing his book 44 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:43,079 Speaker 1: almost immediately afterwards. It is called a Sacred Oath, Memoirs 45 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:46,919 Speaker 1: of a Secretary of Defense during Extraordinary Times, and it's 46 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:51,239 Speaker 1: already been quite controversial. The secretary describes harrowing moments from 47 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:54,080 Speaker 1: his time in the White House, his decision to protect 48 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 1: the nation from the president from inside the administration rather 49 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 1: than blow the whistle publicly, and Secretary Aspert joins us 50 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 1: now on Bloomberg. Secretary, welcome back to the program. It's 51 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 1: great to have you. Congratulations on your book. You've had 52 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:11,400 Speaker 1: to answer some critics who question your decision to remain 53 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 1: part of the administration. What would have happened if you 54 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:17,080 Speaker 1: did speak up? Well, thanks Joe first of all for 55 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 1: having me on and giving it having a chance to 56 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:22,079 Speaker 1: talk about my book and my experiences. And you know, 57 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 1: let me take back to the opening scene there where 58 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:26,520 Speaker 1: you describe the President and his description to me as 59 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 1: as secretary, and you noted that I was sworn in 60 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:31,799 Speaker 1: by Justice Alito and the reason being, and it gets 61 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:33,280 Speaker 1: to the kind of the heart of the matter here 62 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 1: is when you swear in the Secretary of Defense, in particular, 63 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 1: you want to be clearly American people that you're swearing 64 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 1: an oath to the Constitution and not to the president. 65 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 1: That's why the president does not swear in the Secretary 66 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 1: of Defense. And that gets to the you know, the 67 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 1: story of my book and the title, and that is 68 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 1: a sacred oath because the oath is to the Constitution, 69 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 1: not uh, to a president, not to a party, and 70 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 1: not to a philosophy. And that was what governed my 71 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:00,040 Speaker 1: thinking throughout my tenure. And it gets to this on 72 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 1: of key point where you're asking, uh, you know why 73 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 1: I just decided to stay, particularly after June one, And 74 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 1: it's actually quite simple, although I wrestled with it a 75 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 1: great deal. I I talked about it with my wife, 76 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 1: consulted previous sect deaths from both parties, even the late 77 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 1: General Colin Pound to a person, they recommended I stay 78 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 1: because at the end of the day, I thought, Uh, 79 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 1: my higher duty was to the country and staying to 80 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:28,600 Speaker 1: do two things. Want to advanced some important things we 81 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:31,839 Speaker 1: were doing at the Pentagon in terms of modernizing the military, 82 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 1: shoring up friends and allies, improving cyber capabilities and so on, 83 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 1: but at the same time being able to be within 84 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:43,359 Speaker 1: the within the administration pushback on bad ideas being promoted 85 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 1: by those around the president and others. And that became 86 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:49,839 Speaker 1: kind of my what I was trying to achieve in 87 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:52,159 Speaker 1: those final five or six months of offices to get 88 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 1: d o D, get the country to election without any 89 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 1: doo D politicization or involvement in our election. You decided 90 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 1: to write a book, why not speak out when you left? Well, 91 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 1: you know, of course I spoke out with my fellow secretaries. 92 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:11,160 Speaker 1: It depends on January three. We wrote it expressing our 93 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 1: concern and of course, you know, look at that time 94 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 1: the election was over. I was fired Joe on November nine. 95 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:20,440 Speaker 1: The American people decided they wanted a different president, and uh, 96 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:23,599 Speaker 1: it was settled, right, And so what I quickly did 97 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 1: was put pen to paper because I wanted to tell 98 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 1: the story sooner rather later. And of course I finished 99 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:30,800 Speaker 1: I think the first draft in April May and submitted 100 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 1: to the d D. And it took nine ten months. 101 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 1: Eventually had a SUDDO D to release it, all of it, 102 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 1: And so that was a whole other process in and 103 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 1: of itself. But here we are, I'm gonna ask you 104 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 1: about that in a minute. You suggested the Book of 105 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 1: the Secretary that that you never heard of your replacement, 106 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:47,280 Speaker 1: Christopher Miller. Was he the kind of person you were 107 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:51,280 Speaker 1: afraid might take the helm if you were removed? Well, 108 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 1: I think I only met him wants in a situation room, 109 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:55,400 Speaker 1: shook his hand, But I really don't know him, and 110 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 1: I don't know you know, you know, you can judge 111 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:01,040 Speaker 1: for yourself the performance of the team that was that 112 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:02,919 Speaker 1: he came in with and was put around him. And 113 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:06,159 Speaker 1: we saw within days of my firing, and the President 114 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:09,600 Speaker 1: was calling people in asking should we attack Iran and 115 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 1: do this and that? And disappointingly, I think, as as 116 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 1: others have reported, he supported an attack in Iran, and 117 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:19,719 Speaker 1: fortunately others pushed back on that. Uh. And then we 118 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:22,600 Speaker 1: have everything else that led up to January six, so 119 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 1: that you know, part of my concern was that they 120 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:28,159 Speaker 1: would they the president would install Ubal loyalists who would 121 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 1: take the country in a bad direction. And the institution 122 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 1: of the Defense Department itself as well. Yeah, and he did. 123 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: You mentioned you had to sue the Department of Defense 124 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:40,359 Speaker 1: over the redactions that the d O D made in 125 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:42,479 Speaker 1: the book. What parts of the book did they want 126 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:45,720 Speaker 1: to classify or had they classified? Mark? Well, the first 127 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:48,600 Speaker 1: go around, it was you know, words, sentences, paragraphs from 128 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 1: over fifty pages, and notably it's the one story I 129 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:55,279 Speaker 1: tell about the president's interest in attacking or shooting missiles 130 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 1: into Mexico. And look, none of this was classified. And 131 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 1: I still either is some redactive stuff, Still it's classified 132 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:04,720 Speaker 1: that that I kept in the book only to make 133 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:07,039 Speaker 1: the point. But nonetheless, none of this was classified. It 134 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 1: was all about things being politically embarrassing or uncomfortable for 135 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 1: uh for others, and I thought, no, that's wrong. We 136 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 1: should tell the American people the full history so they 137 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 1: understand what was happening. The missiles in Mexico, or just 138 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 1: just one story. You describe a president uh W who 139 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 1: seemed dangerously ignorant when it came to military matters, the 140 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 1: suggesting sending missiles to bomb cartels in Mexico, the wondering 141 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 1: if China had a hurricane gun shooting at protesters. Secretary, 142 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 1: how long were you on the job before you realized 143 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 1: he was serious about some of these ideas? Well, Look, 144 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 1: not not all presidents come into office understanding the military. 145 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 1: I you gotta accept that to begin with. And the 146 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 1: problem was he surrounded himself by people of who didn't 147 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 1: understand either, who would put you know, crazy ideas in 148 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 1: front of him. And so part of my job is 149 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 1: Secretary of Defense and other cabinet members, is to you know, 150 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 1: work for the president kind of educating about the military 151 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 1: and if as people come up with ideas, that is, 152 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 1: to either support them, expand on them, push back, whatever 153 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 1: the case may be. Look on this idea that he 154 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 1: had about Mexico. The President was genuinely sincere about wanting 155 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 1: to deal with drugs in the streets of America. I mean, 156 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 1: we all get that, right, we all know people who 157 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 1: are affected by it. But that's not the way to 158 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 1: do it. There are other ways to do it. And 159 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 1: I kind of proposed alternatives or told him might come 160 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 1: back and work with others on some ideas. And that's 161 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 1: that's my job. But you know, you constantly there it 162 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 1: seemed there were people proposing ideas like this. I mentioned, 163 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 1: you know, Stephen Miller wanted to send a quarter million 164 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 1: troops to the border to deal with alleged caravans coming north. 165 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:39,319 Speaker 1: It was just ideas like that that I felt that 166 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 1: if I wasn't there and an uber loyalist was in 167 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 1: my position, if I had left early, if I if 168 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:47,080 Speaker 1: I resigned on a spot or spoken up and was 169 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 1: fired as I probably probably should have been, that there 170 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:51,680 Speaker 1: wouldn't have been somebody there to push back on these 171 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 1: bad ideas and kind of keep things on the rails. 172 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 1: And that was my simple logic. Were you compelled to 173 00:08:57,200 --> 00:08:58,839 Speaker 1: hand some of this over to the press while it 174 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 1: was happening to neutralize the situation through the media, you know, 175 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 1: you know, I didn't feel I was never comfortable with 176 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 1: leaking stuff like that, So I never leaked classifying information 177 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 1: or stuff like that. Uh. You know, people believe that's 178 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 1: the way to do it, but I just kind of 179 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 1: wasn't my style. We're talking with former Defense Secretary Mark 180 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 1: Esper about his new book, Sacred Oath on Bloomberg Sound On. 181 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 1: Two days after you were confirmed by the Senate, President 182 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 1: Trump held his phone call with Ukrainian President Zelenski, the 183 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 1: call that, of course, was the center of an impeachment trial. 184 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 1: It is now well known that he withheld military funding 185 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:38,440 Speaker 1: from Ukraine. And it's something you describe arguing about you 186 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:43,440 Speaker 1: convinced him secretary to provide that money. No, I don't 187 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 1: think I did, as much as I tried, and John 188 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 1: Bolton tried, and Mike Pompeio, the Secretary State, we tried 189 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 1: individually together to kind of get him to release it. 190 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 1: It wasn't until this the whole story about the phone 191 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 1: call came out in the press. Uh that Uh. I 192 00:09:57,400 --> 00:09:59,679 Speaker 1: think it was September so that I learned all about this, 193 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 1: and I I think he just relented on his own given, 194 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:06,319 Speaker 1: given what was revealed, and so I like to claim 195 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 1: credit for it, But I was just one of a 196 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 1: few people pushing hard to get this release because we 197 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:13,959 Speaker 1: saw the importance to this young democracy. We saw how 198 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 1: important was to signal to the Russians that we were 199 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 1: serious about helping the Ukrainians out Look, the president does 200 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 1: des our credit for releasing lethal aid to the Ukrainians 201 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 1: the Javelin missiles. To his predecessor had not done that. 202 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:26,839 Speaker 1: So um uh, you know again, good and bad in 203 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 1: all of this, did he make Ukraine less secure? Though 204 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:32,600 Speaker 1: in that period of time, I don't think so. I 205 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:34,559 Speaker 1: others have asked me this question. I don't think it 206 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 1: had really had a material impact. A few months of 207 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 1: delay were can pushed it out pretty quickly. And and 208 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 1: of course now that's three years ago, so I don't 209 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:45,080 Speaker 1: think it had a material impact in terms of the 210 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:48,959 Speaker 1: Ukrainians having that that system at the time. Former President 211 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 1: Trump has said many times the Vladimir Putin would never 212 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:53,959 Speaker 1: have invaded Ukraine if if Trump had stayed in office. 213 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:57,080 Speaker 1: He says they even talked about that matter, specifically that 214 00:10:57,080 --> 00:10:58,960 Speaker 1: Putin brought that to him. Were you were ever aware 215 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 1: of conversations like no, not at all, uh, not at all. 216 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 1: And and I think his you know, his assertion that 217 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:07,320 Speaker 1: wouldn't have happened is just an unknown. Who knows what 218 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 1: Putin would have done and why. Only Vladimir Putin knows why, 219 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 1: why he started it and why it continues it and 220 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 1: it's been just a strategic failure for him in so 221 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 1: many ways. Bloomberg spoke just last week of Fiona Hill 222 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:22,680 Speaker 1: told Bloomberg that she thinks Putin would have invaded Ukraine 223 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:25,320 Speaker 1: if the election had been overturned. In other words, if 224 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 1: Mike Pence had not certified the win for Joe Biden, 225 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 1: Donald Trump somehow stayed in office, that he would have 226 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 1: just moved across the border. Do you agree with that take? 227 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, it's hard to it's who knows. 228 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 1: Thank goodness, Um, you know, Vice President Pence did his 229 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 1: duty and did the right thing. And we are where 230 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:44,679 Speaker 1: we are with regard to you know, seeing the peaceful 231 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:48,320 Speaker 1: transfer of power after legitimate election. So what are your 232 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:51,439 Speaker 1: thoughts on Ukraine right now? We've talked about this about 233 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 1: a month or so ago. It was it was a 234 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 1: pretty different scenario. Now, are you of the mind that 235 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 1: Ukraine can win this war? Yes? And I think they 236 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 1: are winning. And I think the Ukrainian people has showed 237 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 1: showed a great courage and what it means to fight 238 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 1: for your country, uh, to show leadership under fire, and 239 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 1: they you know, for a country that's what a quarter 240 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:11,560 Speaker 1: of the size of Russia, It's military is the tenth 241 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:14,080 Speaker 1: the size of Russia. They have really beaten them back 242 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 1: in numerous areas and and you know, so much talk 243 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 1: about Russia in this space too would consolidated down Bass. 244 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:22,000 Speaker 1: Doesn't appear that they're able to do that either. So 245 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:25,080 Speaker 1: I think, you know, the Russians failed to live up 246 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 1: to our expectations in terms of their military prowess, and 247 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:31,320 Speaker 1: the Ukrainians really surprised us in terms of their capability, 248 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:34,439 Speaker 1: and uh, look we we uh d d I made 249 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:37,680 Speaker 1: it a priority that we prepared to fight the Chinese 250 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: first and the Russian second. It's it's was something we 251 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:42,959 Speaker 1: never wanted to do. But the Ukrainians and now are 252 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:45,040 Speaker 1: fighting that fight, and I think we should continue to 253 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:48,680 Speaker 1: support them. I'm sure you saw Turkey today's signaling that 254 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 1: that they do not support expanding NATO to include Sweden 255 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 1: and Finland. Uh you've got experience with the Turks, uh 256 00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 1: kicked out of the F thirty five program, if I 257 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 1: can use that language. And an interesting role that that 258 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 1: Urduwan is playing right now is is he angling for 259 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 1: something or is this a deal breaker? I don't know. 260 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 1: I didn't see that news. I'm curious now as to 261 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 1: what they said and how they framed it. But look, 262 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:14,079 Speaker 1: I think we should keep NATO expansion open. If a 263 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:17,959 Speaker 1: country wants to join, and if they are net positive 264 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:20,199 Speaker 1: to NATO, then we should admit them. And I think 265 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:22,719 Speaker 1: in this case it wouldn't be a net positive. If 266 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:26,199 Speaker 1: Sweden and Finland joined, it would give us greater military capability. 267 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 1: It would show up the northeast flank of the Alliance. 268 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:31,959 Speaker 1: They're too strong democracies, they're willing to spend money. We 269 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:33,760 Speaker 1: should let them in, and we should do it sooner 270 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:36,200 Speaker 1: rather than later, because we all see it the threat 271 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 1: that Russia brings to its neighbors. What are your thoughts 272 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 1: on Vladimir Putin? Right now? People are questioning his mental 273 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 1: capacity and it's very clear that he doesn't have an 274 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 1: exit strategy. Is he Is he more dangerous the more 275 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 1: he's painted in a corner. I think generally people are 276 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:53,200 Speaker 1: more dangerous the more they're painted in the corner. He's 277 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:55,679 Speaker 1: painted himself from the corner though in this case, And look, 278 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 1: everybody wants to try and say they're people are mentally 279 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:00,560 Speaker 1: unstable and they do things that we don't expect or desire. 280 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:04,520 Speaker 1: Who knows right, But clearly he has painted himself in 281 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:06,720 Speaker 1: the corner. It's been a strategic failure from day one. 282 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 1: Not only did he manage way back in February to 283 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 1: push Ukraine closer into our arms, but ended up bringing 284 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:16,440 Speaker 1: more NATO troops to his borders and and the unifying 285 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 1: NATO also, And now he's facing the prospect of too 286 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 1: traditionally neutral country Sweden and Finland possibly joining the alliance. 287 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 1: So look at it continues to be a strategic failure. 288 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 1: And if you look at what's happening on the ground 289 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 1: now and don Bass, it is a tactical failure as well. 290 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 1: The weaknesses of the Russian army, the military have really 291 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 1: been exposed here. Incredible. Secretary. You mentioned June one, and 292 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 1: you've expressed regrets for what happened that day. I think 293 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 1: you felt like, if I'm reading the book correctly and 294 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 1: hearing the stories that you've told, once you realize what 295 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 1: was going on, it was too late, what would you 296 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 1: do differently if you could relive that experience. Well, I 297 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:56,280 Speaker 1: wouldn't have walked across the park on June one, and 298 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 1: I would have told Milly to General Milly to stay 299 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 1: away as well. But would you be we made what's that? 300 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 1: Would you have been fired for that? Uh? Maybe? I 301 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:07,960 Speaker 1: don't know. You know, we didn't know what was going 302 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 1: on because I right in the book, you know, I 303 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 1: got a phone call around six twenty that day to 304 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 1: turn around. The President wanted an update at the at 305 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:20,280 Speaker 1: the White House and uh on the events for the evening. 306 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 1: We get there and we learned that there is no update. 307 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 1: The President wants us to go walk across the park 308 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:28,480 Speaker 1: to see damage. And Uh. Again, if I hindsight being 309 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:32,680 Speaker 1: could I've refused and been fired maybe, you know, part 310 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 1: of the tough job with the secretary offenses. On one hand, 311 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 1: you have to remain a political for the institution, but 312 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 1: on the other hand, you're a political appointee, and so 313 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: these areas get gray. But I think clearly in this case, 314 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 1: it was a mistake to be there, uh, particularly after 315 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 1: law enforcement just pushed people peacefully protesting out of the park. 316 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 1: And uh. And I certainly would have told General Milly 317 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 1: to stay away. His instincts were, you know, would have 318 00:15:57,400 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 1: been spot on as well. And I know he regrets 319 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 1: the moment it too. And and look, we we came 320 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 1: clean with it. I sent a memo out the next day, 321 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 1: within twenty four hours, expressing to all D O D 322 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 1: the importance of us remaining a political uh, the importance 323 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 1: that we provide support the civilian authorities. But on the 324 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 1: other hand, we have to respect Americans right to express 325 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:19,440 Speaker 1: themselves and to assemble peacefully, particularly in light of what 326 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 1: happened with the tragic murder of George Floyd. So um, 327 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 1: you know, we did our best to kind of reconcile 328 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 1: and and and kind of own up and take responsibility 329 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 1: for it. And then I became committed of course from 330 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 1: there on with the four nos and making sure that 331 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 1: I did even better in terms of keeping D O 332 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 1: D out of politics. Secretary Espert, It's entirely likely that 333 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 1: Donald Trump will run for president again. Entirely likely he 334 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 1: will be the Republican nominee. Ino with this book that 335 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 1: you have written, the picture you've painted, the stories that 336 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 1: you're telling here, do you believe that Donald Trump is 337 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 1: unfit to run for office again? Will you campaign against him? Well, look, 338 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 1: I don't. You framed it as it's entirely likely. Don't 339 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 1: accept that it's likely that he will run. I hope 340 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 1: that he doesn't run. And and why is that? Because 341 00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 1: I think you know, candidates for elected office, the highest 342 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 1: office in the land, but any office that matter, have 343 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 1: to meet some criteria. For me, you have to put 344 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 1: country overseelf number one. Number two, you have to have 345 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:19,200 Speaker 1: integrity and some core principles that guide you. And number three, 346 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:21,119 Speaker 1: you've got to be willing to reach across the aisle, 347 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:24,200 Speaker 1: work with others from the other party and unite people. 348 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:26,440 Speaker 1: And look, Donald Trump just doesn't meet the mark for 349 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 1: me in those those areas, and and that's why I 350 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:31,680 Speaker 1: can't support it. Would you actively then work against the 351 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 1: candidacy if there was one, Well, I don't know what 352 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:37,439 Speaker 1: that means, actively work against the candidates. I'm not you know, 353 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 1: political person by nature to understood, just in terms of 354 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:43,960 Speaker 1: writing columns, maybe even doing a campaign event. We'll see. 355 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:46,439 Speaker 1: I mean, look, I'm hoping there's a new generation of 356 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 1: I believe there's a new generation of Republicans out there 357 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 1: who will who will campaign. I hope they'll run, uh 358 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:55,159 Speaker 1: in twenty four that will see that right after the 359 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 1: mid terms. But I hope that they will carry on 360 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 1: a Republican banner and push those same core policies frantically 361 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:06,160 Speaker 1: that Donald Trump did. Look to his credit, Donald Trump 362 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:10,639 Speaker 1: pushed traditional Republican policies. He made progress on many of them, 363 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 1: whether it's lower taxes, the regulation, smaller governor government, building 364 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 1: a wall, rebuilding the military, conservative judges on the bench, 365 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:20,879 Speaker 1: you name it. He made progress. Too often, though he 366 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:23,239 Speaker 1: went too far on some of these things, and and 367 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 1: too often the language was course and divisive. We need 368 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:29,680 Speaker 1: Republican leaders in this next election who will not only 369 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:33,119 Speaker 1: advance the same policy objectives, but do so in a 370 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:36,480 Speaker 1: way that is more inclusive, that will grow the Republican 371 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:41,160 Speaker 1: base that can win elections. Look, you can't really advance 372 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 1: your policies if you can't win to win elections, and 373 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 1: last time around, we lost the White House, we lost 374 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 1: the Senate, we lost the House, and we cannot afford 375 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:53,280 Speaker 1: do that again. He was their former Defense Secretary, Mark 376 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:56,199 Speaker 1: Esper the book Sacred Oath, Memoirs of a Secretary of 377 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 1: Defense during Extraordinary Time. Secretary, thank you for your time 378 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:02,880 Speaker 1: and answering my questions. She has Bloomberg Sound on. I'm 379 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 1: Joe Matthew, and Washington want to assemble the panel very 380 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 1: quickly on this because we need feedback from Genie and 381 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 1: from Dan Bloomberg. Politics contributor Jeanie Chanzano joined today along 382 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:17,560 Speaker 1: with Dan Flatley, Bloomberg National Security correspondent Genie. The big 383 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:20,080 Speaker 1: question here, and I tried to get to this right 384 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:23,159 Speaker 1: at the top, was was whether the you know, the 385 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 1: sacred oath that he talks about kept him on the 386 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:29,399 Speaker 1: job and why he didn't speak out earlier. He has 387 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 1: been criticized for this. Was his answer satisfactory? You know, 388 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:35,639 Speaker 1: I think that's the big question here. It was fascinating 389 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:37,440 Speaker 1: to listen to him talk about that and the fact 390 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 1: that Aldo swore him in for that reason right where 391 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:42,719 Speaker 1: you started. And that's the difficulty in the United States. 392 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:45,439 Speaker 1: We have civilian control of the military. You try to 393 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:48,720 Speaker 1: keep the separation between politics and the military. But as 394 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:52,640 Speaker 1: his book and your interview just underscored, very very difficult 395 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 1: line to walk. I think his answer is not going 396 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: to fulfill, you know, satisfy everyone, but it is an 397 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:01,360 Speaker 1: answer he did the best could and he was fired 398 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 1: by tweet at a very peculiar not peculiar, a very 399 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:07,920 Speaker 1: difficult time with a president who did not want to 400 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:13,600 Speaker 1: leave office. He sure was interesting to read Secretary Asper's 401 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:16,879 Speaker 1: story about being fired. He actually did get a heads up. 402 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:20,200 Speaker 1: He got a phone call from Mark Meadows telling him 403 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:21,920 Speaker 1: that he was not loyal enough that the president was 404 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:24,679 Speaker 1: going to fire him. The tweet, the infamous tweet went 405 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:27,119 Speaker 1: out about a minute after they hung up the phones. 406 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:32,879 Speaker 1: Should Mark Esper have spoken out that day? Dan, you know, 407 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:35,639 Speaker 1: I think that you know what you've heard from Espers, 408 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: and you've heard from a number of Trump administration officials, 409 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:43,159 Speaker 1: particularly those who are in the Pentagon, like Jim Madison others. 410 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:48,440 Speaker 1: Is a lot of anguish over where the line too, uh, 411 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 1: their duty to the country ended, and where their their 412 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 1: line to the duty to to the president. At the 413 00:20:53,840 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 1: time Donald Trump began, everyone told him to stay then yeah, yeah, 414 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 1: I mean I think that uh, And this is this 415 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:05,200 Speaker 1: is the dilemma that a lot of these folks found 416 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 1: themselves in. Do you do greater damage by speaking out immediately? Um? 417 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:13,399 Speaker 1: And I think you know what what what reflects some 418 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 1: of you know, poorly on him in some quarters or 419 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 1: some some critics I've raised, which raised at the beginning 420 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 1: of the interview, is you know, now you can say, well, 421 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:22,640 Speaker 1: you're only talking about this because you want to sell 422 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 1: books or something like that. But I do think that, 423 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 1: you know, when you're talking about sensitive areas where military 424 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:32,480 Speaker 1: strike strikes could be carried out or things of that nature. Um, 425 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:34,359 Speaker 1: there's a lot of care that you might take with 426 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 1: something like that, that that that may not come into 427 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 1: play with some other political considerations. So it's hard to 428 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:41,680 Speaker 1: know unless you're really in that position. But I think 429 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:45,119 Speaker 1: you know, Secretary as per former Secretary Esper was wrestling 430 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 1: with a lot of those as some other defense officials 431 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:49,199 Speaker 1: in the Trump and Trump years did as well. You 432 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 1: can hear it in his voice absolutely as he as 433 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:53,680 Speaker 1: he makes the case for this and and describes wrestling 434 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:56,960 Speaker 1: with the genie. The stories, though, are really something bombing 435 00:21:56,960 --> 00:22:00,679 Speaker 1: cartels in Mexico, sending missiles over the border, uh, the 436 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 1: hurricane gun with China. The secretary was trying to go 437 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:06,800 Speaker 1: a little bit easy, saying, look, you know, you get 438 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:08,680 Speaker 1: this job as president. You may not be a big 439 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:11,200 Speaker 1: military mind the first couple of days on the job, 440 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:14,000 Speaker 1: but this was his last year, and some of these 441 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:18,919 Speaker 1: are are unbelievable without corroboration, they're they're absolutely stunning, and 442 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 1: I think he takes great pains to sort of give 443 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 1: President Trump for President Trump, every benefit of the doubt 444 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:27,960 Speaker 1: and praise him for certain things. The one that really 445 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 1: stuck with me was the one about Stephen Miller, the 446 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:35,879 Speaker 1: President's close aid. Yeah, and and also the head of 447 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:39,720 Speaker 1: Bagdaddy dipping it in pigs blood and parading it around 448 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:42,840 Speaker 1: with to warn other terrorists. You know, Miller has flatly 449 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 1: denied that, but it is a stunning revelation, absolutely incredible. 450 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:50,119 Speaker 1: I appreciate your insights. Jeannie Shenzano and Dan Flatley with 451 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:54,160 Speaker 1: us for an instant reaction to our conversation with former 452 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:58,120 Speaker 1: Defense Secretary Mark Esper, a conversation you will not hear 453 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:01,400 Speaker 1: anywhere else today on the radio, I might add, we'll 454 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 1: check markets traffic for you as we try to get 455 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:06,480 Speaker 1: home here on a Friday, coming up here on sound On, 456 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:09,679 Speaker 1: and then we'll talk more about Donald Trump with Eric Larson. 457 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 1: He interviewed him about his new lawyer. It's next. This 458 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 1: is Bloomberg broadcasting live from our nation's capital, Bloomberg to 459 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:24,680 Speaker 1: New York, Bloomberg eleven, Frio to Boston, Bloomberg one oh 460 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:28,840 Speaker 1: six one to San Francisco, Bloomberg nine sixty to the country, 461 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:32,399 Speaker 1: Serious x M General one nine and around the globe, 462 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 1: the Bloomberg Business app and Bloomberg Radio dot Com. This 463 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:42,200 Speaker 1: is Bloomberg Sound On with Joe Matthew Fastest Hour in 464 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:46,360 Speaker 1: Politics with the headline Trump's lawyer leads counter attack from 465 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 1: her five attorney firm. Bloomberg's Eric Larson writing about Elena Habba, 466 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:54,119 Speaker 1: who has taken over some of Donald Trump's highest priority 467 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:57,280 Speaker 1: legal fights. Eric spoke with the former president about it, 468 00:23:57,320 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 1: and he speaks with us next. Over the past year, 469 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:02,680 Speaker 1: she's taken over some of Donald Trump's highest priority legal fights, 470 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:05,440 Speaker 1: including challenges to the New York Attorney General's probe of 471 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 1: his businesses and his defense in a fraud suit brought 472 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 1: by his niece. Talking about someone you may have never 473 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:17,480 Speaker 1: heard of, Felina Habba, thirty eight years old, the subject 474 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 1: of a great column written by Eric Larson here at Bloomberg. 475 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 1: You can find it on the terminal right now. As 476 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 1: he writes in the subhead, Habba is spearheading the former 477 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:32,760 Speaker 1: president's aggressive legal tactics. Former President Trump talked about those 478 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:36,639 Speaker 1: aggressive tactics with Eric here. He is, I wanted to 479 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:40,560 Speaker 1: get more aggressive because, frankly, you know, I said back 480 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:45,359 Speaker 1: here and let people take shots, and I did nothing wrong, 481 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:48,600 Speaker 1: And no, I wanted to get more aggressive, and I 482 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:52,200 Speaker 1: will be getting more aggressive. Eric Larson joins us, Now, 483 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 1: what does he mean by that, Eric, what's coming next? Well, 484 00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 1: you know, he wouldn't exactly say what was coming next, 485 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:02,399 Speaker 1: but I respect we might be finding out soon. But 486 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:06,479 Speaker 1: but clearly he has been going after his enemies in 487 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,959 Speaker 1: recent months. You know, not only has this new lawyer, 488 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:13,159 Speaker 1: Elena Hobbat, taken over his defense in cases that had 489 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 1: already been filed and has been dragging on for a while. 490 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:20,560 Speaker 1: She's also filed three pretty big new lawsuits on his behalf, 491 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 1: one against the New York Attorney General, Leticia James, trying 492 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 1: to halt her investigation into his company, another suit filed 493 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:31,479 Speaker 1: against his niece Mary Trump, who, as you mentioned, had 494 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:35,280 Speaker 1: sued him earlier, filing a hundred million dollar lawsuits against 495 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:37,719 Speaker 1: her and The New York Times because she was a 496 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:41,160 Speaker 1: source for a big award winning piece about his finances. 497 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:44,400 Speaker 1: And then another suit against Hillary Clinton filed a few 498 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:48,200 Speaker 1: months ago down in Florida over a big alleged conspiracy 499 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:51,560 Speaker 1: to undermine his presidency with the Russia claims. So she's 500 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 1: really gone on the offense. How important is it to 501 00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,359 Speaker 1: have this new law lawyer on hand versus Trump telling 502 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 1: his legalty what to do. Uh, you know, I feel 503 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:05,880 Speaker 1: like it. It doesn't feel like it was a decision 504 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:08,160 Speaker 1: that was made very lightly. You know. I interviewed them both, 505 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 1: as you said, and it sounded like, um, his existing lawyers, 506 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 1: he had plenty, but but they didn't seem to be 507 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:19,359 Speaker 1: carrying out or they maybe they weren't as excited about 508 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:25,399 Speaker 1: his legal strategy. Get so, um, you know, they in 509 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 1: the cases that he had already been defending himself. Man, 510 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,199 Speaker 1: he also went on the attack in those ones. You know, 511 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 1: he was tired of these cases dragging on. In his view, 512 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:38,359 Speaker 1: they should have been dealt with. Um. So he threatened counterclaims, 513 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:40,879 Speaker 1: for example, against two women who had accused him of 514 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 1: sexual assault and then sued him for defamation. Um when 515 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:48,640 Speaker 1: he denied it. You know, they he's threatened claims against them. UM. 516 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:52,600 Speaker 1: So she says that she's just an aggressive an attorney, 517 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:54,760 Speaker 1: that they talked about it, and she was willing to 518 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 1: start these new fights. You write about how she was hired. 519 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:02,240 Speaker 1: Abba came into Trump orbit after becoming a member of 520 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:06,720 Speaker 1: his golf club, Bedminster, New Jersey. The former president says, 521 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 1: I met her at the club. I said, what do 522 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:11,000 Speaker 1: you do? She said, Well, other people at the club 523 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:13,200 Speaker 1: knew her, and they say she's an excellent attorney, which 524 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 1: she is. I gave her a couple of cases to handle. 525 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:17,480 Speaker 1: She did a good job. This is how the former 526 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:22,480 Speaker 1: president of the United States hires his his new legal counsel. Yeah, 527 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:25,200 Speaker 1: you know, and frankly, it really wasn't too surprising once 528 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 1: I found that out, because when you think about Trump, 529 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:31,000 Speaker 1: he is the guy who, you know, liked loyalty. He 530 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:33,640 Speaker 1: likes people who like him. He likes people who liked 531 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:35,720 Speaker 1: his brand. You know, where else are you going to 532 00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 1: find the true Trump believers than at his club, people 533 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 1: who are already I guess you could say vetted and 534 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:44,920 Speaker 1: they're wealthy, and there are people who like him. Um, 535 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:48,439 Speaker 1: he likes that. So as he said, and that she 536 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,399 Speaker 1: said she had represented some other members at this club 537 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 1: and they had recommended her to him, because of course, 538 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 1: you know, he's always on the lookout for legal work. 539 00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,119 Speaker 1: I think that some people must be aware of that. 540 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:03,520 Speaker 1: So went from there. Which are these cases are the 541 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:07,960 Speaker 1: most urgent as he prepares to decide whether to run 542 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:12,800 Speaker 1: for office? Here is that the New York Attorney General's investigation. Yeah, 543 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:15,160 Speaker 1: you took the words out out of announced, hands down. 544 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:19,239 Speaker 1: There's so much at stake, um in this investigation, and 545 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:22,120 Speaker 1: it is wrapping up. They were just in court today 546 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:26,200 Speaker 1: in federal court in Albany, that's where his lawsuit is filed. 547 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:30,159 Speaker 1: Haba was in court arguing there against the Attorney General's 548 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,920 Speaker 1: motion to dismiss that case. UM. But the underlying investigation 549 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 1: is ongoing. UM. It could lead to a lawsuit being 550 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:41,680 Speaker 1: filed against the Trump organization or Trump himself or Don Jr. 551 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,400 Speaker 1: Eric Trump and Balka Trump and Vanka Trump. They're all 552 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:47,600 Speaker 1: involved in the business. And it's been uh, you know, 553 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 1: subpoena in this in this investigation. UM, and it alleged 554 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:53,680 Speaker 1: you know, if they do allege something, it would have 555 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 1: to do probably with asset valuations. The Attorney General has 556 00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,080 Speaker 1: said that the probe is already uncovered a significant it 557 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:04,080 Speaker 1: in that the company has used misleading asset valuations for 558 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:07,120 Speaker 1: years to get better terms on insurance and loans and 559 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:11,480 Speaker 1: even taxes. Uh. So it potentially could be a big 560 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:16,720 Speaker 1: lawsuit that could drag on certainly um into potentially depending 561 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:19,360 Speaker 1: on that's the point. So this could hang over a 562 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 1: potential presidential race. This would be brought up in every 563 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 1: debate and you know, every interview exactly. And he's already 564 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,760 Speaker 1: laying the groundwork, and so is his lawyer, Lena Habba, 565 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 1: you know, to basically excused, um accused Uh the Attorney 566 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 1: General and any judge involved a bias against him. UM. 567 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:42,840 Speaker 1: Should anything not go his way, UM, they will just 568 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:45,160 Speaker 1: say that it's more of a witch hunt, UM as 569 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 1: more of the same. That's that's what they already do 570 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 1: so you know, in a sense, this lawsuit that she 571 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:56,840 Speaker 1: filed on his behalf is is creating potential um uh, 572 00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:00,360 Speaker 1: not evidence, but giving them talking points for if this 573 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,560 Speaker 1: doesn't go his way. How come he didn't go to 574 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 1: marrow lago? Eric, what happened? What's the what's the phone 575 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 1: call about? Well, my my invitation was lost in the mail, 576 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:13,800 Speaker 1: Like me, I understand, it's very nice this time of year, 577 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 1: Eric Larson, great work. Thanks for coming to talk to 578 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:18,440 Speaker 1: me about it, and thanks for bringing us the sound 579 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:23,800 Speaker 1: of Donald Trump. Indeed, Trump's lawyer leads counter attack from 580 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:25,719 Speaker 1: her five attorney firm. As the headline, you can read 581 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:29,000 Speaker 1: about it on the terminal Elena Hobbs, Eric writes, he 582 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:31,960 Speaker 1: I guess he well, he interviewed her at her better 583 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 1: house keeps a frame news article on a wall of 584 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 1: her well appointed five bedroom mansion in New Jersey with 585 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:43,400 Speaker 1: a distinctive signature scrolled across it with yes sharpie Elena. 586 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:48,479 Speaker 1: Great job, the former president wrote on this November one story. 587 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:54,240 Speaker 1: It was a news story about a lawsuit that was 588 00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 1: brought to him by one time apprentice contest and who 589 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:02,400 Speaker 1: accused him of sexual assault, then suit him for defamation 590 00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:05,800 Speaker 1: when he called her a liar. It's an interesting world 591 00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:07,640 Speaker 1: we live in, and we'll talk about it with the 592 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:13,240 Speaker 1: panel as we bring in Genie Chanzano solo panel here 593 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:15,640 Speaker 1: on sound On. Next we'll check markets and traffic for 594 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:22,160 Speaker 1: you as well. Aren't Joe Matthew? This is Bloomberg. You're 595 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:26,280 Speaker 1: listening to Bloomberg You sound On with Joe Matthew on 596 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:34,080 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Radio. Could there be an upset in Pennsylvania? It's 597 00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:36,040 Speaker 1: starting to look like it here as we prepare for 598 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 1: next Tuesday's Republican Senate primary in the state in which 599 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:42,320 Speaker 1: Donald Trump is of course endorsed. Dr Oz that got 600 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,440 Speaker 1: all the talk right at Oz versus McCormick will make 601 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:49,680 Speaker 1: way for Kathy Barnett, giving the front runners a run 602 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:51,400 Speaker 1: for their money. Here, thanks for being with us on 603 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,920 Speaker 1: the Friday edition of Sound On't Joe Matthew in Washington 604 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:59,680 Speaker 1: and joined by Bloomberg Politics contributor Genie Shenzano. Genie, this 605 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:03,920 Speaker 1: is a remarkable story. Doctor Roz of course already famous. 606 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:06,400 Speaker 1: He's got a lot of name recognition. David McCormick got 607 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:11,120 Speaker 1: a lot of money, have spent millions twelve million dollars 608 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:15,280 Speaker 1: for Dr Oz almost as much for David McCormick. Barnett 609 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:19,560 Speaker 1: has spent a hundred and thirty seven thousand dollars on TV. 610 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:23,000 Speaker 1: And as I look at the Real Clear UH poll 611 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:26,120 Speaker 1: of polls here in this particular race, and they're in 612 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 1: there within one point of each she's now in second 613 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 1: place here, it's Dr Oz twenty three, Barnett twenty one, 614 00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:36,880 Speaker 1: McCormick twenty what's going on in Pennsylvania? It is stunning. 615 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:40,520 Speaker 1: I was looking at the same Real Clear Politics polling average. 616 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:44,120 Speaker 1: You look at Barnett's numbers April third, she's polling around 617 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:48,920 Speaker 1: seven percent today, As you mentioned, she has surpassed McCormick 618 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:51,640 Speaker 1: with all his money. She is within a margin of 619 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,560 Speaker 1: era of Oz and she's at about twenty one two percent. 620 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:57,960 Speaker 1: It is a remarkable trajectory. I think part of what 621 00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 1: has happened here is that Oz and Cormick have been 622 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 1: so busy shooting at each other, and Kathy Barnett has 623 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:08,719 Speaker 1: been out there now she has said many things that 624 00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:12,239 Speaker 1: people find objectionable. Um, he is a MAGA candidate. Right, 625 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:14,360 Speaker 1: to be clear, she's not endorsed by Trump, but she's 626 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:16,880 Speaker 1: she's in the in the vein. She may be more 627 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:19,760 Speaker 1: Maga than Donald Trump. To be honest, she is, you know, 628 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:21,880 Speaker 1: she and she has, let's face it, set a lot 629 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:25,040 Speaker 1: of things that people may find objectionable, but that play 630 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:29,080 Speaker 1: to this primary audience in the Republican primary in Pennsylvania. 631 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,480 Speaker 1: And so what you know, the problem for the Republicans, 632 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 1: of course, is they're concerned she may not be a 633 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:38,240 Speaker 1: great general party candidate general election candidate, but she is 634 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:40,960 Speaker 1: really really strong. And so while McCormick and Oz have 635 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:43,880 Speaker 1: been shooting at each other, she herself has shot up, 636 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:46,200 Speaker 1: as you mentioned, and not spent a lot of money, 637 00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 1: which is absolutely stunning Donald Trump. Out of the statements yesterday, 638 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:53,240 Speaker 1: it says Kathy Barnett will never be able to win 639 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:56,840 Speaker 1: the general electorate against the radical left Democrats. She has 640 00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:59,640 Speaker 1: many things in her past which have not been properly explained. 641 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:02,320 Speaker 1: Or what if she's able to do so, she will 642 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:05,280 Speaker 1: have a wonderful future in the Republican Party and I 643 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:07,720 Speaker 1: will be behind her all the way. He goes on 644 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:09,480 Speaker 1: to say Dr ros is the only one will be 645 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:13,960 Speaker 1: able to easily defeat the craze lunatic Democrat in Pennsylvania. 646 00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:19,000 Speaker 1: I'm assuming he means the Lieutenant governor Fetterman. Uh, that's 647 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:21,960 Speaker 1: a quite a backhanded compliment, isn't it. It is? And 648 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,520 Speaker 1: you know what's so stunning about that is that's exactly 649 00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:27,600 Speaker 1: what people said about Donald Trump before he won in 650 00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:31,000 Speaker 1: two sixteen, the same thing. He can never win. He 651 00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:35,080 Speaker 1: says outlandish things. He has no political experience. But you 652 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:38,080 Speaker 1: know one thing that Kathy Barnett has going for her, 653 00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:40,520 Speaker 1: in addition to other things, is she has quite a 654 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:44,279 Speaker 1: remarkable story. And that story, that personal story, has been 655 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:48,319 Speaker 1: resonating with Republican primary goers on the ground. She has 656 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:50,360 Speaker 1: made flubs, as I said, she has said things that 657 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:53,879 Speaker 1: people find objectionable, and yet her star, the more they 658 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:57,040 Speaker 1: listen to her, continues to rise. She is more maga 659 00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 1: than Donald Trump in some ways, and it is resonating 660 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:04,239 Speaker 1: with people born of any eleven year old mother. She 661 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:08,080 Speaker 1: calls herself a product of rape in a campaign that 662 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:10,920 Speaker 1: has seen abortion creep up as a major issue here, 663 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:13,839 Speaker 1: of course, at following the league from the Supreme Court, 664 00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:16,480 Speaker 1: a lot of questions as well about whether mement Oz 665 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:19,480 Speaker 1: is actually pro life right. Jennie, We've heard a lot 666 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:21,640 Speaker 1: about this. They had a debate recently. It was next 667 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:23,600 Speaker 1: to our media. I want to hear from both oz 668 00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:28,120 Speaker 1: Uh and McCormick. Here's Dr Oz first President Trump endorsed 669 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:30,600 Speaker 1: being quite clearly, and the first point he made about 670 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:34,279 Speaker 1: why I'm a conservative America, first Republican, he said that 671 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:36,800 Speaker 1: I am pro life and I am pro life. Okay, 672 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:40,839 Speaker 1: so he's explicit about that. McCormick says, not so much. 673 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:43,600 Speaker 1: Here he is responding, Memon has flip flopped on every 674 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:46,240 Speaker 1: major issue, and you can go to his own comments 675 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:49,000 Speaker 1: May one, two thousand and nineteen, and interviewed at the 676 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:52,520 Speaker 1: Breakfast Club, he essentially said that he was worried about 677 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:57,000 Speaker 1: the pro life movement um that was creating fights. He 678 00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 1: was worried about states putting in place pro pro life legislation. 679 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:02,920 Speaker 1: And is this a conversation that's just sucking up oxygen 680 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:05,640 Speaker 1: here in a Republican primary, genie, or or will it 681 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:09,600 Speaker 1: helped decide the outcome? You know, it feels like McCormick 682 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,200 Speaker 1: really believes that you listen to these ads, that that 683 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:15,359 Speaker 1: that inconsistency on Oz's part is going to hurt him 684 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:18,480 Speaker 1: in the election. But again, just look back at Donald Trump. 685 00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:20,480 Speaker 1: He was pro choice, he was pro life, he had 686 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:23,840 Speaker 1: been you know, in various positions, not to mention he 687 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:27,400 Speaker 1: had been a Democrat, an independent Republican. It didn't matter. 688 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,520 Speaker 1: And so I'm not so certain that this idea of 689 00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:34,040 Speaker 1: you know, flip flopping inconsistency is going to resonate with 690 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:36,439 Speaker 1: voters on the ground. And you know, as you look 691 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:40,320 Speaker 1: at the Democrats, it's so fascinating what Fetterman has done 692 00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:43,400 Speaker 1: is he stopped really talking about issues. He's, you know, 693 00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:46,200 Speaker 1: a left wing sort of guy, he's a you know, 694 00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:49,319 Speaker 1: progressive in some ways, but he started talking about the 695 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:51,839 Speaker 1: fact what I'm a fighter. I will fight for you 696 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:54,520 Speaker 1: each and every day. It's that kind of talk that's 697 00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:58,359 Speaker 1: resonating with voters on both sides, not issue consistency. And 698 00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:00,279 Speaker 1: so I'm not sure this is gonna matter or that 699 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:03,520 Speaker 1: much we've had, uh, you know, this weekly storyline going 700 00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:06,480 Speaker 1: Genie about whether the Trump brand is still intact, his 701 00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:10,080 Speaker 1: endorsements matter. He had his first loss, of course, uh 702 00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:13,640 Speaker 1: in this latest go around, but he's had a pretty 703 00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:15,520 Speaker 1: good record so far. I think we have to admit 704 00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:18,719 Speaker 1: he ran the table, uh two weeks ago Ohio, Indiana, 705 00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:21,879 Speaker 1: who had some trouble in Nebraska. Are we gonna keep 706 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:24,160 Speaker 1: doing this every week or are we gonna look at 707 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:26,319 Speaker 1: kind of the primary season as a whole before we 708 00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:28,799 Speaker 1: judge Donald Trump. I think we'll look at it as 709 00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:31,640 Speaker 1: a weekly blow by blow, and then at the end 710 00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:34,080 Speaker 1: we will look at it overall. But I don't think 711 00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:37,200 Speaker 1: anybody can turn a blind eye to the fact. Just 712 00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:40,240 Speaker 1: listen to this show that you've done today. Donald Trump 713 00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:43,719 Speaker 1: remains a critically something. We've talked about him for the 714 00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:47,160 Speaker 1: entire hour, even as we changed topics. Absolutely, and can 715 00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:50,400 Speaker 1: you imagine another former president who lost the White House 716 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:54,160 Speaker 1: if he could command this much attention. Donald Trump isn't 717 00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:57,440 Speaker 1: paying for this attention. He's getting free media attention. So 718 00:37:57,520 --> 00:37:59,880 Speaker 1: he is a force to be reckoned with and certain 719 00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:03,120 Speaker 1: when it comes to Republican primary races. You know he'll 720 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:06,239 Speaker 1: lose some, he'll win some, but nobody can say he's 721 00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:09,200 Speaker 1: not important. And I go back, he has raised more 722 00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:12,320 Speaker 1: money than the Republican Party itself except two days in 723 00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:15,080 Speaker 1: the last six months of twenty one. That's a remarkable 724 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:17,680 Speaker 1: statement right there. It is. But that that brings me 725 00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:21,440 Speaker 1: back to this Barnet Bank account, a hundred thirty seven 726 00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:26,040 Speaker 1: thousand dollars. This is a state with two major media markets, Pennsylvania. 727 00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:29,880 Speaker 1: It's it's it's an expensive proposition running for Senate or 728 00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:33,480 Speaker 1: for any statewide, uh, you know, elected office here and 729 00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:36,960 Speaker 1: it's it's proving again that this has a lot more 730 00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:40,640 Speaker 1: to do with things than money, Genie, it does, you know, 731 00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:43,360 Speaker 1: I I go back to, you know, the race between 732 00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:46,040 Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump. You know, as a political scientist, 733 00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:48,960 Speaker 1: we would always say money is the deciding factor. You 734 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:51,160 Speaker 1: have more money, you know, nine times out of ten, 735 00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:53,680 Speaker 1: you will win. I'm not so sure that is the 736 00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:57,000 Speaker 1: case anymore. Sure money matters, but there are so many 737 00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:00,440 Speaker 1: avenues now for candidates if they can say out rageous 738 00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:03,839 Speaker 1: things to get attention via social media, which costs them 739 00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:07,319 Speaker 1: very very little. Any time with Jennie Chanzano, of course, 740 00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:11,120 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Politics contributor, as we wind it down here a 741 00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:13,640 Speaker 1: bit here of course, on a Friday, as we all 742 00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:16,440 Speaker 1: try to get home together in one piece, Genie. Was 743 00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:20,440 Speaker 1: the last day on the job for Jens Saki, the 744 00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:23,480 Speaker 1: White House Press Secretary. We knew it was coming, she 745 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:27,280 Speaker 1: announced this weeks ago. In fact, is Karine Sean Pierre 746 00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:30,680 Speaker 1: takes uh takes the podium if you will, in the 747 00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:33,319 Speaker 1: briefing room. So today was the last go around, and 748 00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:35,520 Speaker 1: she had to you know, to to her credit, a 749 00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:37,520 Speaker 1: lot of people to thank and a lot of people 750 00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:40,240 Speaker 1: were there to thank her. This is just a taste 751 00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:41,919 Speaker 1: of what it was like today in the White House 752 00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:44,799 Speaker 1: briefing room. And she brought this to a close. You know, 753 00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:49,440 Speaker 1: this is my last briefing and it is Brian um. 754 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:52,680 Speaker 1: And I wanted to start with a series of thank yous. 755 00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:57,280 Speaker 1: Um uh. I promised myself, I wasn't gonna get emotional. Okay, 756 00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:03,000 Speaker 1: um um thank you. I want to say thank you 757 00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:07,240 Speaker 1: to the President and the First Lady, and then thanked 758 00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:09,799 Speaker 1: everyone else she ever met. It was kind of an 759 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,960 Speaker 1: Oscars type of thing. Even had her husband in the room. 760 00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:15,799 Speaker 1: A lot of warm feelings on the way out here. 761 00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:18,319 Speaker 1: And she talked about her first meeting for this job, 762 00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:22,239 Speaker 1: Genie with with the President and the First Lady, and 763 00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:25,799 Speaker 1: they talked about restoring civility to the White House briefing room. Now, 764 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:28,200 Speaker 1: this came off obviously a very difficult end of the 765 00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:31,560 Speaker 1: Trump administration, when there were no briefings going on and 766 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:33,960 Speaker 1: the media, news media that had been demonized as the 767 00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:37,080 Speaker 1: enemy of the American people. Did she succeed in doing that? 768 00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:40,040 Speaker 1: You know, I think all in all, she did. I mean, 769 00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:43,080 Speaker 1: she even got praise from her nemesis in in in 770 00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:46,520 Speaker 1: the Room, Peter Doocey of FOXNE who described her as 771 00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:48,680 Speaker 1: very effective. And you know, I sort of say that 772 00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:50,279 Speaker 1: tongue in cheek because they had a you know, sort 773 00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:52,279 Speaker 1: of a love hate relationship, if you will, in there. 774 00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:54,719 Speaker 1: But I do think she did. You know, just if 775 00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:58,160 Speaker 1: you look at the number of you know, she she 776 00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:02,480 Speaker 1: was committed. When she came in, she said to holding 777 00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:05,880 Speaker 1: these press briefings daily and gaggles when they couldn't be 778 00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:09,160 Speaker 1: in the room, and she did that. Somebody by account 779 00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:13,480 Speaker 1: said of the days over the last sixteen months, sixteen 780 00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:16,120 Speaker 1: months rather she held briefings. I mean, that's quite a 781 00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:19,880 Speaker 1: remarkable change from what we saw in the Trump White House. 782 00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:22,239 Speaker 1: They said at that the total Trump White House. And 783 00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:24,759 Speaker 1: if all four years, two hundred and five briefings, she 784 00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:28,840 Speaker 1: held two twenty four already. So she she did it. 785 00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:31,640 Speaker 1: She did it that way. And I think, you know, 786 00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:35,520 Speaker 1: she also had a really strong background as she came in, 787 00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:38,560 Speaker 1: and she was able to parlay that into you know, 788 00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:41,880 Speaker 1: she she was no pushover. Obviously she was. She's a tough, 789 00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:44,600 Speaker 1: tough woman, but she was also able to be effective 790 00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:47,400 Speaker 1: in terms of knowing what reporters needed by way of information. 791 00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:49,480 Speaker 1: That's true. I mean, look, her time spent at the 792 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:53,279 Speaker 1: State Department obviously informed her for a critical period in 793 00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:57,920 Speaker 1: American history. Uh. I wonder your thoughts on her replacement, 794 00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:01,080 Speaker 1: Karine Jean Pierre. This is one of the most difficult 795 00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:04,680 Speaker 1: jobs in the world. It's one of you know, frequently 796 00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:07,200 Speaker 1: known as the second hardest job in Washington, right after 797 00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:10,239 Speaker 1: being president. Uh. You typically don't last too long here. 798 00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:13,359 Speaker 1: What's the job? What's the goal for Kareine junk here? Yeah, 799 00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:17,000 Speaker 1: we call her KJP now Joe, just just to be clear. 800 00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:19,560 Speaker 1: She's got it. She's gonna got it, get the president 801 00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:21,400 Speaker 1: through this mid term. I think, first of all, and 802 00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:23,279 Speaker 1: I think she'll do a great job. She comes with 803 00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:25,719 Speaker 1: an enormous experience. Of course, that's a lot to ask. 804 00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:29,200 Speaker 1: Can you imagine being tasked with that job. I'd rather 805 00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:33,880 Speaker 1: stay here, talk to Jeanie Tanzano, Bloomberg Politics contributor, and 806 00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:36,040 Speaker 1: all the other smart folks I get to spend time 807 00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:37,920 Speaker 1: with here every day. I'll meet you back here Monday. 808 00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:40,400 Speaker 1: Thanks to Mark Esper for joining us on the fastest 809 00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:41,239 Speaker 1: hour in Politics.