1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 1: Body Dies with Joseph's Gotten More. I think there's just 2 00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:16,759 Speaker 1: something liberating about traveling through the night in a car. 3 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:21,639 Speaker 1: It's got a lot of power. It's at your back 4 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: and call underneath your foot she pressed down, And it's 5 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 1: particularly thrilling if you're riding where the wind is down. 6 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: You don't care what your hair looks like, you don't 7 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 1: care what else is going on in front of you, 8 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:44,279 Speaker 1: and if you've got the radio cranked up with your 9 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:53,360 Speaker 1: favorite tunes on there, and it's transporting you back, perhaps 10 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: to someplace that you love and remember. I often think 11 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: we're where I live has got one particularly stretched road 12 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:07,120 Speaker 1: that winds over the top of the mountain that's literally 13 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 1: right behind my home. And I remember, even as a 14 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:15,040 Speaker 1: young kid coming over that mountain to get to Jack State. 15 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 1: I used to have a nineteen seventy forest Green Tudor 16 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 1: Monte Carlo. I love that car tunes playing cutting through 17 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:35,400 Speaker 1: the night. But you know the thing about being behind 18 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:39,679 Speaker 1: the wheel and having all of the stimulation going on, 19 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 1: all these good things, suddenly that can change in the 20 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 1: twinkling of an eye. It can take us to an 21 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 1: absolute place of terror. Today on body Backs, I want 22 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:02,640 Speaker 1: to talk about a case involving in three people and 23 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 1: a beautiful green nineteen sixty seven fort Fair lane that 24 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:13,800 Speaker 1: couldn't quite stay on the road. As a matter of fact, 25 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:17,640 Speaker 1: it launched off of a bridge and created one of 26 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:23,919 Speaker 1: the biggest mysteries in the history but the state of Kentucky. 27 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body bags, Dave. 28 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:35,800 Speaker 1: I'm going to start this conversation off by giving you 29 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:40,800 Speaker 1: a great, big, old fat thank you. This case, our 30 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 1: case is that you dropped on me, brother, is unlike 31 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 1: anything else that I think today that we have done 32 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 1: on body bags. And I'll go ahead and tell everybody 33 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:59,359 Speaker 1: out there that this is not a homicide, all right, 34 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 1: but it's every bit the mystery. As a matter of fact, 35 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 1: we're talking about decades, man, decades, a forty. 36 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 2: Five year old missing person's case, Joe, that included a 37 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 2: World War One war hero. 38 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 1: Yeah. When you dropped that knowledge only I was thinking, 39 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 1: you know, did let me ask you something in your 40 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 1: young age, do you recall ever meeting a World War 41 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 1: One veteran. 42 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:31,359 Speaker 2: Joe when we used to go to parades when I 43 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 2: was a little kid. Yeah, there would be the Spanish 44 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 2: American war guys would lead the pack, you know, on 45 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 2: the parade. For back then it was called Armistice Day, 46 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:42,840 Speaker 2: I think, yeah, yeah, it was always in it was. 47 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 2: You know, now it's a not Veterans Day. It's in November. 48 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 2: No November anyway, that Veterans Day. Yeah, wait, November in 49 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 2: Veterans Day. They've changed that, Okay, just to be really 50 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 2: historically correct here, Yeah, it was Armistice Day for a 51 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 2: long time because it was the end of World War One, 52 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 2: you know, the eleventh month, the eleventh day, the eleventh 53 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 2: hour hour, and that's what all that meant. And that's 54 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 2: why we do Veterans Day on November eleventh. And going 55 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 2: to those parades as a kid when I was very young, 56 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 2: and I think about this every now and then, you're 57 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:19,360 Speaker 2: talking about like nineteen seventy, you know, I'm a little kid, 58 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:23,280 Speaker 2: and we would see there were still men who were 59 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:27,040 Speaker 2: alive then they were granted they were ninety, but they 60 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:31,040 Speaker 2: were in these before World twenty you know, fifteen years 61 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 2: before World War One, you know. And I learned to 62 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:37,839 Speaker 2: shoot pool from a guy who actually was too old 63 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 2: to serve in World War Two. You know, when you 64 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:43,880 Speaker 2: get to that point in life, you look back at 65 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:46,280 Speaker 2: this and go, yeah, this guy, this man that we're 66 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:48,159 Speaker 2: going to talk about today, is one of three people 67 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 2: that he had a heroic adventure in World War One 68 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:56,279 Speaker 2: as a young man, and he came home without a 69 00:04:56,320 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 2: leg and without emotional strength. He was a shell shocked 70 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:06,039 Speaker 2: veteran and was declared incompetent by nineteen thirty two. 71 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 1: Isn't that I got a pause you just for a second, 72 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:11,039 Speaker 1: because this is something This is a theme that we 73 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 1: have hit on before on body bags. Isn't it amazing 74 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:21,240 Speaker 1: how maybe this is kind of obvious, but isn't it 75 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 1: amazing how one event that occurs in a person's life 76 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:37,560 Speaker 1: decades and decades before cannot only impact that individual. But 77 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:41,159 Speaker 1: that was in the middle of it, But it spreads out. 78 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:44,159 Speaker 1: You know. I always talk about throwing throwing a stone 79 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 1: into a Placid lake and you see the waves go 80 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:51,279 Speaker 1: out that from that moment, and it is like that, 81 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 1: And I got to tell you, I think this is 82 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 1: this is one of those cases, you know, those events 83 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:02,240 Speaker 1: that happened all the way back in probably nineteen eighteen, 84 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 1: which is when I think our guys showed up or 85 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:07,160 Speaker 1: nineteen I'm probably getting nailed by historians in the audience 86 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 1: approximating that time. You know that all those decades back, right, 87 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:16,359 Speaker 1: it impacts what happened on that August night in nineteen 88 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:17,720 Speaker 1: seventy three. 89 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 2: And here we are in twenty twenty four talking about 90 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:24,599 Speaker 2: how yesterday this story is in the news. Yesterday, the 91 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 2: story that we're talking about today is because a term 92 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:30,560 Speaker 2: is being used that Joe and I don't like. It's 93 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 2: called closure for family. Yeah, and it may be in 94 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:37,280 Speaker 2: one of these things because this did happen a long 95 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 2: time ago before any of these individuals had really a 96 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 2: personal contact on their living relatives now, but they've been 97 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 2: part of history. Think about it. If you have a 98 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:49,159 Speaker 2: family member, an aunt and uncle's cousin, what have you, 99 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:53,839 Speaker 2: that went missing in nineteen seventy three, would you be 100 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:56,799 Speaker 2: talking about them all these years? Like whatever happened to John? 101 00:06:57,080 --> 00:06:59,840 Speaker 2: You know what, what ever happened to him? I mean, yeah, 102 00:06:59,839 --> 00:07:01,719 Speaker 2: he was a little crazy, the one legged guy, I 103 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 2: mean he was, But where is what happened? 104 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 1: I think about it. The adults from back then that 105 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 1: would remember this individual, they're actually they're they're leaving us now. Yes, 106 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 1: you know, one of the things I lament this is 107 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 1: my grandparents' generation. I miss I missed the greatest generation 108 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 1: right now. I miss those people from that generation. There 109 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 1: are very few World War Two veterans, and you know, 110 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 1: the people that that built you know, built us out, 111 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 1: you know, going into the fifties, we're losing all of 112 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 1: those people in our history along with them. But you know, 113 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 1: you said a mouthful, you know about how and you 114 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 1: know you have this this event that there are still 115 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 1: people that are around that remember these individuals, and that 116 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 1: memory has continued on, you know now all these years later, 117 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 1: and how that kind of it's almost like a I 118 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 1: don't want to use the term ghosts, but it's imprinted 119 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 1: onto that family. 120 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 2: How do you get past it? When you have this 121 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 2: open end there is now this might be the one 122 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 2: time the closure fits because there's not closed. This is 123 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 2: an open circle. It is not full circle yet. Now 124 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 2: we're going to give it to you today and tell 125 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 2: you why the family and the extended family why they 126 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 2: are excited about finding out what really happened, because, as 127 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 2: we mentioned, you don't quick history lesson World War One. 128 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:32,440 Speaker 2: For the United States, we didn't get into the war 129 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:35,680 Speaker 2: until the end. It was nineteen seventeen before the United 130 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 2: States got into the war. The war ended November eleventh, 131 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 2: nineteen eighteen. Okay, but that year and a half we 132 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 2: were in it. Yeah, it destroyed a lot of lives. 133 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 2: That's why, that's why we were not as aggressive against 134 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 2: Hitler in the thirties, because it was like, we saw 135 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:57,599 Speaker 2: what happened to the generation that came home, and they 136 00:08:57,640 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 2: they were unwilling to do that again. But you know what, 137 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 2: overcoming it and World War two happened, and it lasted 138 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 2: longer for us. Think about it. You know, from December seventh, 139 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:10,440 Speaker 2: nineteen forty one until August of nineteen forty five. That's 140 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 2: a long time compared to a year and a half. 141 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, those guys. Those guys didn't do short tours either. 142 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 1: Right when you when you were drafted in, it's like 143 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:22,840 Speaker 1: you're going to come home, but this is how you'll 144 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 1: come home either deceased, grievously injured, or victory. Right, that's it. 145 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:32,200 Speaker 1: That's that's the only choice that you had. Points. 146 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:35,079 Speaker 2: They would tell yeah, they've had this game. You know, 147 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 2: they would get a number of points that they would 148 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 2: earn if they did certain things. And they're like, yeah, 149 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 2: when you have twenty three points, you go home. And 150 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 2: they're like and that was the joke. Hey, you know, 151 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 2: they'd get a new guy, and so I only got 152 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 2: to do four more of these and I go home like, 153 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 2: yeah I got that two years ago. 154 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:51,959 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you know that that goes to this gentleman 155 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 1: that's that's operating this vehicle, this Fort fair Lane. You know, 156 00:09:56,000 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 1: you think about you know, obviously it was a young 157 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 1: you know when he went in, he was fighting age. 158 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 1: Think about how hopeless that would be to go and 159 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 1: they didn't fly over there. He went over in a 160 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 1: boat with a bunch of other guys packed in like 161 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:20,480 Speaker 1: sardines and the yeah yeah, and then to get your 162 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 1: leg blown off over there. Yeah, I'd say he's wrecked. 163 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:27,320 Speaker 1: He's wrecked. And back then we had talked about it. 164 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 1: They didn't use the term. They didn't even use the 165 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:33,560 Speaker 1: term battle fatigue, which became kind of popularized World War 166 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 1: II Korea, that sort of thing. They used term shell shocked. 167 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 1: And that's and if you've never seen, and I urge everybody, 168 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:50,960 Speaker 1: if you have never seen these video clips of these 169 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 1: guys after World War One that they were studying, where 170 00:10:56,080 --> 00:11:01,080 Speaker 1: these men are habitually shaking and they're all under tables 171 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:03,680 Speaker 1: and they have video of them just sitting there and 172 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:07,640 Speaker 1: they have this wild I'd look and how do you 173 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 1: treat that? You know, how do you treat these guys? 174 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 1: And that's what they were faced with. And this guy 175 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:15,199 Speaker 1: comes home. Not only is he damaged mentally, but he's 176 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:18,720 Speaker 1: damaged physically. I'm wondering, how in the world would he 177 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 1: even be capable of operating a motor vehicle if he's 178 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:28,760 Speaker 1: so damaged mentally and he's he's damaged physically, How does 179 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:29,320 Speaker 1: that happen? 180 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 2: It didn't work out really well for him driving a car. Joe, 181 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:35,680 Speaker 2: You and I both were looking at this, and he 182 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:38,199 Speaker 2: was not known as a skillful driver. He had had 183 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:40,439 Speaker 2: his license taken away. He'd been in a wreck in 184 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 2: nineteen seventy three. The guy had so many wrecks they 185 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:45,600 Speaker 2: took his license from him, but he kept driving that 186 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:49,840 Speaker 2: The guy was he's a war hero. He's incompetent, and 187 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 2: he's illiterate. You're not going to tell him what to do. 188 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:56,320 Speaker 2: And so he decides he's going to this family reunion 189 00:11:56,800 --> 00:12:00,959 Speaker 2: and he took it. The sister that were with him 190 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:05,680 Speaker 2: that day, Martha and Flora. Martha and Flora Helmic both 191 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:09,079 Speaker 2: went with him, and they were both domestics, I guess 192 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 2: is the best way to put it. That was their career. 193 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 2: And I have one of them took care of John, 194 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:20,720 Speaker 2: mister Kenyon or Keaton rather sorry anyway, they're on their 195 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:24,440 Speaker 2: way to a family reunion for mister Kennon, and the 196 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 2: battle is did Keaton drive? Was he driving the car 197 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 2: or was one of the women we know that he 198 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:33,680 Speaker 2: drove even though he didn't have a license yet. And 199 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 2: I'm thinking that you told me about the Ford Fairlane 200 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 2: before we started, about it being a man's man kind 201 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 2: of car, not an early car. No, I'm thinking of 202 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 2: a World War One veteran with an attitude. He's going 203 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 2: to be driving that car. 204 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah. And you know the thing. The thing 205 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:52,080 Speaker 1: about the fair Lane is that it came in. It 206 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:56,200 Speaker 1: came in varying degrees of beefiness, if you will, you know, 207 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:59,560 Speaker 1: because for Ford back then did not make what we 208 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 1: think of as muscle cars so much. He had the Mustang, 209 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:06,560 Speaker 1: but you know, when it came to muscle, you're thinking 210 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 1: a GM product like a Pontiac, you know, or Chevy 211 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 1: or even with Chrysler. You know, how could you not 212 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:17,720 Speaker 1: think about like the road Runner? You know, those cars 213 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 1: like that. 214 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 2: We could do a whole show. You know, we could 215 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:26,560 Speaker 2: create a whole new thing of people who created a 216 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 2: body bag out of their muscle car from the sixties. 217 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:31,440 Speaker 1: That's what we could do. Yeah, we could, But you 218 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:34,439 Speaker 1: know I would digress because I just I'm an admire 219 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 1: I don't know enough about them, But boy am I 220 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:40,840 Speaker 1: admiring this is this is a this was the It 221 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 1: was the standout car for Ford. So you're talking about 222 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:46,079 Speaker 1: a car with a lot of power with a guy 223 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 1: that it was his car if he had been driving. 224 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:54,839 Speaker 1: He's severely handicapped. I don't know. We don't know if 225 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 1: he had a prosthesis. I'm thinking that he did not, 226 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:02,319 Speaker 1: and so if he is disabled to this point, and 227 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 1: he is disabled mentally to this great degree, suffering from 228 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 1: what would we would call now pete severe PTSD, you 229 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 1: really have to wonder on that dark night when they're 230 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 1: heading out from Virginia to drive all the way to Kentucky, 231 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:27,720 Speaker 1: what did the night hold for them? They never made 232 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 1: it to the family reunion, and for decades later, people 233 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 1: wondered and families cried. Every now and then, you will 234 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 1: have an event in your life. Sometimes it can be 235 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 1: something tiny like Dave, have you ever pulled out a 236 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 1: pair of old jeans, you put them on and stick 237 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 1: your hand in the pocket. You find twenty dollars bill 238 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 1: and it's like, oh my gosh, It's like it's like 239 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 1: the heavens open up and it's like this grand day. 240 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 1: You know, I got to know if how did this 241 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 1: go down? Where they're missing since August of nineteen seventy three, 242 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 1: how does this happen? They've been missing all this time. 243 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 1: You know, you think, well, one person can disappear and 244 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 1: people will doggedly try to track them down. But oh, 245 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 1: my lord, if you have three people that go missing, 246 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:40,120 Speaker 1: and you're sitting here and we're talking about one of 247 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 1: the more isolated rural areas in America that stretch from 248 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 1: western Virginia, not West Virginia, but western Virginia all the 249 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:50,920 Speaker 1: way through eastern Kentucky. You're talking about driving through the 250 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:55,360 Speaker 1: heart of the Appalachian Mountains. How in the world do 251 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 1: you make sense of this? 252 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 2: The first week of August and we were talking about 253 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 2: whether or not they were driving, the air conditioning, if 254 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 2: they even had air conditioning, because the thing is is 255 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 2: that they did go missing, and I don't know of 256 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 2: what type of search took place. We know that they 257 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 2: were expected and they're you know, they were they were 258 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 2: on their way to a family reunion, so people expected 259 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:20,240 Speaker 2: them to be there. When they didn't arrive, calls were made. 260 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 2: There was a lot of assumptions being made that maybe 261 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 2: John was driving, maybe they did have an accident, but 262 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 2: they couldn't find him anywhere. They tried to retrace the 263 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 2: steps that they had been on. But you know what, 264 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:34,680 Speaker 2: when nothing was found, people it's not that people lose interest, okay, 265 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 2: but they they just have to have a reason to continue. 266 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 2: And after a certain period of time of being gone. 267 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:47,120 Speaker 2: You don't think they've been kidnapped for money, you know, 268 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 2: you don't think there's something. You just think something happened 269 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 2: and we can't find them now, and eventually people just 270 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 2: tire of talking about it. To be honest with you, 271 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:58,360 Speaker 2: I don't know how long that lasted, but I do 272 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 2: know this. In twenty sixteen, Lexington, Kentucky Fire Department is 273 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 2: doing a training exercise on the Kentucky River. Now, they 274 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 2: had used some sonar to find that there were some 275 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:18,040 Speaker 2: cars in the river, and instead of just pulling them 276 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:22,520 Speaker 2: out or leaving there there to you know, deteriorate. They 277 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:25,160 Speaker 2: decided to turn it into an exercise to help teach 278 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:28,440 Speaker 2: their fire department how to do water rescues and things 279 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 2: like that. So taking there were several cars, most of 280 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:34,879 Speaker 2: them were stolen, Joe, and that to this day, I 281 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 2: don't understand why people would steal a car only to 282 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:38,360 Speaker 2: toss it in the river. 283 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 1: You know, well, no, no, no, no, just let me 284 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:42,359 Speaker 1: because I had friends of mine that worked for the 285 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:47,320 Speaker 1: FBI Task Force Relative Stolen Vehicles and also state police 286 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:50,440 Speaker 1: friends of mine. What they do is they strip everything 287 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:53,720 Speaker 1: out of a vehicle, okay, and then that shell that's 288 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:57,440 Speaker 1: left by the discard that they discard it and so, 289 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:01,399 Speaker 1: and it's a legitimate question. But yeah, that's a great answer. 290 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 1: One of the things that happens, and you'll find it's amazing. 291 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 1: What if you've ever seen these people on YouTube that 292 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 1: are doing magnet fishing where they go to the bridge. Yeah, 293 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 1: I'm fast stopped and. 294 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:14,719 Speaker 2: I'll got stuck on them for hours when we stopped 295 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:17,679 Speaker 2: taping today. That's my grandson and I will sit there 296 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 2: and do that for course. What'd you do all day, Dave? 297 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 2: I was working, That's what I was doing, magnet fishing anyway, 298 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:26,199 Speaker 2: So there's all these there's these cars and things they 299 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 2: found using sonar. They decided to make it a training 300 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:31,720 Speaker 2: exercise and they're out there training and they're done. The 301 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:34,440 Speaker 2: different fire departments are packed up, they're ready to leave again. 302 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 2: It's October of twenty sixteen. And they did find this 303 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 2: ford fair Lane in the river, but it was so 304 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:45,719 Speaker 2: old and is so rusted in such bad condition they 305 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:48,359 Speaker 2: couldn't even get certain numbers they needed, so they weren't 306 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 2: really stressing over it as a vehicle. However, as they 307 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:56,360 Speaker 2: were packing up, one of the firemen looks back and 308 00:18:56,480 --> 00:19:04,680 Speaker 2: sees something and it was obviously not a stick. And 309 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:07,919 Speaker 2: I think for those of you in this field, you 310 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:10,920 Speaker 2: know what a bone is. You know when you see 311 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:13,359 Speaker 2: something that is a bone. It might not be human, 312 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:15,679 Speaker 2: could be any number of things, but you know the 313 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 2: difference between a stick and a bone. To me, I 314 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:21,399 Speaker 2: might not know the difference, but this fireman did. And 315 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 2: they went and got it. They knew this was something 316 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 2: that they might have disturbed while they were in the river. 317 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:28,240 Speaker 2: They find this and they get it and they go, okay, 318 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 2: this is obviously a bone. They call in the county 319 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 2: corner and this is Actually what caught my attention about 320 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:40,760 Speaker 2: this story, Joe. They bring in the corner and ask 321 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 2: him to take a look at this. Okay, he says 322 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:47,960 Speaker 2: it is a bone, but he can't determine if it's 323 00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:48,960 Speaker 2: human or animal. 324 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:50,800 Speaker 1: Yeah. So my first. 325 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 2: Question to you, Joseph Scott Morgan, how is that even 326 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 2: an issue? I thought that would be an easy one. 327 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:02,720 Speaker 1: No, not necessarily. I think that people would be amazed 328 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:09,080 Speaker 1: at the confusion that exists out there, and it's legitimate 329 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:13,480 Speaker 1: and you should pay attention. There are certain times when 330 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 1: you need to pay attention to confusion and to try 331 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 1: to sort things out. I hate making assumptions, particularly when 332 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 1: it comes to investigations, and it's very very normal. You 333 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:31,160 Speaker 1: talk about the corner that came out after the fire 334 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:37,120 Speaker 1: department found the single bone. There have been people I've 335 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:39,959 Speaker 1: been on duty when this happens. I will get a 336 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:43,159 Speaker 1: call from the front desk and they'll say, yeah, we 337 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 1: need somebody in investigations. There's someone in the lobby with 338 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:49,360 Speaker 1: a bone. And that happens with great frequency. They're out 339 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:53,200 Speaker 1: in their backyard, they're digging, or they're wandering walking down 340 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:54,760 Speaker 1: the road, or they're out in the woods on a 341 00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 1: hike and they find a bone, and look, I encourage 342 00:20:58,040 --> 00:20:59,679 Speaker 1: if you find a bone, you don't know what it is, 343 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 1: get it to somebody. There's no shame in it. The 344 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 1: lieon's share of the time when they would bring a 345 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:09,080 Speaker 1: bone to us, it would be one of two bones. 346 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:13,639 Speaker 1: Itoul are one of two species of bones, cow or hog, 347 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:19,400 Speaker 1: and it's generally as a result of barbecuing, people cooking 348 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:23,159 Speaker 1: and then they'll discard bones. Really, yes, that's funny. I 349 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:26,120 Speaker 1: would never have guessed that, and you know, the historian 350 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:29,880 Speaker 1: inside of me. One of the things that always held 351 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:33,399 Speaker 1: out hope for is that during the Civil War, the 352 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:37,880 Speaker 1: Battle of Atlanta, the Confederacy had trench lines that literally 353 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 1: ran right by the Medical Examiner's office, the southern perimeter 354 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 1: around the city, and I always held out hope that 355 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:50,359 Speaker 1: somebody would be digging in their backyard and recover, you know, 356 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:54,080 Speaker 1: historic remains like that, because for me, that's intellectually stimulating. 357 00:21:54,320 --> 00:22:00,400 Speaker 1: Never happened, unfortunately, But you have to look at the 358 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 1: bone and try to understand. That's why when people go 359 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:06,919 Speaker 1: through like when they go to the Body Farm in 360 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 1: places like that, or to the Maple Center down at 361 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 1: the University of Florida, or out to University of Arizona, 362 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 1: where they've got a fine program as well. They spend 363 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:20,359 Speaker 1: the anthropologists will spend a goodly portion of their time 364 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 1: examining the skeletons of a variety of different types of animals, 365 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 1: and that's so they can delineate between human versus non human. 366 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:32,119 Speaker 2: Now I feel so much better about this. Oh I 367 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 2: really did think it was just to because I don't know. 368 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:38,360 Speaker 2: I thought, how difficult can it be? So it really is. 369 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:42,439 Speaker 2: That's why this guy Gary gin the Fayette County Corner 370 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 2: and he could not determine exactly what it was. He 371 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:49,920 Speaker 2: called in a retired anthropologist, doctor Emily Craig. Yeah, and 372 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 2: she gets a look at it and says, not only 373 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:55,359 Speaker 2: is he human, I can tell you this is female? 374 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:58,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, isn't that something? Yeah? How is this? One? 375 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:00,440 Speaker 2: Guy? Can't even tell you if it's human? And she's like, oh, yeah, 376 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 2: so as a matter of fact, you think it's Aunt Martha, 377 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:03,480 Speaker 2: you know, I mean. 378 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:07,640 Speaker 1: No, no, no, no, listen to the Corner's great credit. 379 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:14,240 Speaker 1: I am more impressed with people that admit that they 380 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 1: don't know than those that walk around saying that they do. 381 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 1: I've learned so much more by saying I don't know 382 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:23,640 Speaker 1: something in life, and when you can call in an expert. 383 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 1: You have the phone number of a physical anthropologist or 384 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:31,439 Speaker 1: a forensic anthropologist that's nearby. Utilize it, man, utilize it. 385 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:35,119 Speaker 1: I always tell when I'm teaching classes, for instance, I 386 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 1: reach out. I tell police officers. You don't you do 387 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:42,280 Speaker 1: not want to wait until the day that you have 388 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:47,119 Speaker 1: a catastrophic event in your jurisdiction to build a relationship 389 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 1: with a forensic dentist or forensic anthropologist that should have 390 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 1: been done years prior to Okay, you don't want to 391 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:57,280 Speaker 1: wait to end. So the corner obviously had this person 392 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 1: maybe on speed dial, I don't know. But the fact 393 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:04,359 Speaker 1: that they were able to look at the single bone 394 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:07,760 Speaker 1: and not only say that not only is it human, 395 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:11,480 Speaker 1: it's female. It goes into the discussion that we recently 396 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 1: had with the Melissa Wolfenberger where when we examine human 397 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 1: remains skeletal human remains, there are two terms that are 398 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:28,919 Speaker 1: used pretty frequently, and that is, as it applies to 399 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 1: male skeletons, we will refer to them many times their 400 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:39,920 Speaker 1: features as being robust, but with female skeletons we use 401 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 1: the term grassile, which means fine, it's finer, more dainty, 402 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 1: that sort of thing. And also some of the features 403 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 1: are a little bit different. But you know, so even myself, 404 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:53,240 Speaker 1: as you know, as much experience as I've had around 405 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 1: the dead, I'm not going to rely on my own 406 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:59,440 Speaker 1: judgment relative to a skeleton remain. I'm going to try 407 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 1: to find the closest expert that I can, specifically a 408 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 1: physical anthropologist that has experienced not just in examining skeletal remains, 409 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:16,160 Speaker 1: but Dave, there's another element to this that is quite striking. 410 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:22,719 Speaker 1: This remain, the single remain, had been in an aquatic 411 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 1: environment for years and years and years, therefore even further 412 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 1: increasing the degree of difficulty in assessing who this belonged to. 413 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:55,639 Speaker 1: I would wager that if you're trying to measure a 414 00:25:55,680 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 1: degree of difficulty when it comes to processing crime scenes, 415 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 1: when you get into an aquatic environment it can either 416 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 1: be one hundred feet deep or knee deep. There is 417 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,640 Speaker 1: a level of difficulty that comes into play where all 418 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 1: evidence is impacted. I know that, and I urge anybody 419 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 1: that is listening to please seek out my good buddy, 420 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 1: Bobby Chacone, and he's a retired FBI agent, and he 421 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:32,720 Speaker 1: headed up the dive team for the FBI and became 422 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,960 Speaker 1: quite famous as an underwater crime scene investigator. He is 423 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:41,879 Speaker 1: fascinating individual. I was actually appeared with him on Doctor 424 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:45,240 Speaker 1: Phil's show, I think two years ago, and he is 425 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:49,760 Speaker 1: just remarkably bright and has great insight things I don't 426 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:53,719 Speaker 1: normally think about. And Dave, when we're talking about this 427 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:56,439 Speaker 1: bone that was recovered, there's all kinds of things that 428 00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:59,200 Speaker 1: can happen to bone underwater. A lot of it has 429 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,280 Speaker 1: to do with the chemistry of the water. For instance, 430 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 1: you can have kind of a decalcification that takes place 431 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:10,920 Speaker 1: with the bone depended upon you know, what type of it. 432 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 1: You know, if you're for instance, if you're downstream from 433 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 1: some factory, for instance, the water's not as necessarily pure 434 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:22,800 Speaker 1: in pristine as a rocky mountain stream. You never know, 435 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,440 Speaker 1: and not to mention things are going to be mud covered. 436 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 1: Most rivers in the South have a lot of silt 437 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 1: on the bottom of them and sometimes it's hard to 438 00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:34,960 Speaker 1: make heads or tails. Did I got to ask in 439 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:38,160 Speaker 1: this case, did they only find this single bone? 440 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:40,240 Speaker 2: You know, it's so funny, Joe, when they found the 441 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:42,159 Speaker 2: one bone that started all of this. You know, I 442 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 2: mentioned it was in October. It was a couple of 443 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 2: weeks before they identified it, first of all as human 444 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 2: and female. That they were able to arrange going back 445 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:54,960 Speaker 2: to the site to pull that ford Fair Lane out 446 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 2: of the river. Oh and when they got it out 447 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 2: of the river, they found more bones in the car. Now, 448 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:05,720 Speaker 2: remember we already kind of we didn't bury the lead 449 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 2: by telling you there were three people in the car. 450 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 2: It's just there were three people in the car because 451 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 2: we had to tell you that to tell you why 452 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 2: they found it in the river to start with. But 453 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 2: when they're pulling the car out, they don't have the 454 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,880 Speaker 2: information we already have given you. They're blind to this. 455 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 2: They just know they found one bone belongs to a female. 456 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:25,280 Speaker 2: Pull the car out and find more. Now here's what 457 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 2: they found. They found the vehicle identified Martha Helmet. Okay, 458 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 2: they found information. Now Martha they found and this is 459 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:42,480 Speaker 2: what really got me, Joe, they were able they found 460 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 2: bones of a foot in pantyhose. Wow, they found an 461 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 2: elevated shoe, a shoe that has like a big heel 462 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 2: on it. Yes, Now, I remember how we mentioned that 463 00:28:56,440 --> 00:29:01,960 Speaker 2: John the older man, that he didn't have a leg. Well, 464 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 2: we're talking about a woman's shoe that was elevated. And 465 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 2: then they found a coin purse that identified other family members. 466 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:14,400 Speaker 2: So they started figuring out they've got somebody here that 467 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:19,240 Speaker 2: they can identify by certain aspects of knowing her family background. 468 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 2: And then they find a fractured tibbia bone. Yes, that 469 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 2: had never healed properly, never healed correctly. Now it was 470 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 2: so bad Joe that it caused her leg to be 471 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 2: shorter than the other. And all I'm thinking is did 472 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 2: she break that bone as a child and it was 473 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 2: never set properly. They didn't take her to the doctor, 474 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 2: and it caused her to have a permanent lifetime of. 475 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:47,600 Speaker 1: Pain. 476 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:50,040 Speaker 2: I mean it could if it doesn't heal, right, that's 477 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 2: got to cause serious pain. 478 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,560 Speaker 1: Yeah. And bones. Bones are fascinating, aren't they because they're 479 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 1: going to ment. Yeah. And when you see, like at autopsy, 480 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:04,000 Speaker 1: when I've seen some of the most striking findings when 481 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:06,640 Speaker 1: it comes to when we dissect out areas, Say if 482 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:11,000 Speaker 1: we've got an anomaly like a misshapen arm, many times 483 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,440 Speaker 1: we'll do a dissection on the arm just to see, well, 484 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,920 Speaker 1: why is it misshapen, or to verify it and many times, 485 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:20,280 Speaker 1: for instance, the humorous which is the large bone, the 486 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 1: upper bone in the arm, I've seen where when bones 487 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:30,040 Speaker 1: kind of naturally mend, you'll see this kind of calcified 488 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 1: area turns into many times like a big knot, and 489 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 1: the bone is trying to fuse back together. And it does. 490 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,720 Speaker 1: But the problem is this, you won't have the same 491 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:43,760 Speaker 1: length to it, and many times you won't have the 492 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:49,200 Speaker 1: same range of motion because it's all everything impacts everything else, 493 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:53,960 Speaker 1: the biomechanics that are involved in it. And so when 494 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 1: in forensics, there's a term that we use called individualization, 495 00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:05,760 Speaker 1: and boy, this got all all of the trademarks, if 496 00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:09,040 Speaker 1: you will, of somebody that is specifically we pray for 497 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:13,880 Speaker 1: cases like this of the unidentified. The fact that she's 498 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:20,600 Speaker 1: got a tibia that has been incorrectly fused. There's evidence 499 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 1: that it has been previously broken. And this could have happened. 500 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,280 Speaker 1: It could have happened in childhood, or it could have 501 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:28,920 Speaker 1: happened in adulthood. And you know, we know that she 502 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 1: doesn't come from a lot of money. And there are 503 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,240 Speaker 1: people that walk around on broken bones. I've met them, 504 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:40,480 Speaker 1: and it's excruciatingly painful. Maybe it was never set properly. 505 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:42,520 Speaker 1: But this is the one thing that we would know 506 00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 1: if we were investigators going back to ask her history. 507 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:48,640 Speaker 1: If we didn't know about the shoe for instance, all right, 508 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 1: and we had this bone, we could go back and 509 00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:55,360 Speaker 1: those that are still living that remember Martha, did she 510 00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 1: walk with a limp? Did she favor one side? And 511 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:05,040 Speaker 1: here's the other thing, that bone in her leg. Yes 512 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:07,800 Speaker 1: it's shorter, and yes it would have caused her Did 513 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:11,840 Speaker 1: you know that that impacts also now that you have 514 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,400 Speaker 1: the tib fib which are the two lower bones in 515 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:19,840 Speaker 1: the leg, that impacts the knee. It impacts the femur, 516 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:22,960 Speaker 1: which is the largest bone. It's the largest long bone 517 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:27,040 Speaker 1: in the body that's from knee to hip. It impacts 518 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 1: the hip. So like where the ball of the head 519 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:35,560 Speaker 1: of the femur fits into the pelvis, you would have 520 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:39,680 Speaker 1: there would be markings on the interior of that pelvis 521 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:43,880 Speaker 1: because it's atypical because of the shape of her leg 522 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:46,840 Speaker 1: and the legs are asymmetrical, so you know she'd be 523 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:49,000 Speaker 1: dragging a leg behind her. It's going to impact her 524 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:53,280 Speaker 1: entire body. So if all you have are skeletal remains remaining, 525 00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:56,840 Speaker 1: you can look for those little markers if we're absent 526 00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:01,160 Speaker 1: the shoe. But boy, I'm a dude. I'm amazed by 527 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:05,240 Speaker 1: two things. First Off, they found panty hose nylon, which 528 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:09,480 Speaker 1: is a synthetic, and that contained a bag of bones. 529 00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:14,600 Speaker 1: You know that when we go out to recover skeletal remains, 530 00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:17,960 Speaker 1: some of the first things that disappear are the bones 531 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:19,400 Speaker 1: of the feet and the bones of the hands, and 532 00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:21,440 Speaker 1: that's because they're so small and there's so many of them. 533 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:25,560 Speaker 1: The fact that they recovered multiple bones of the foot 534 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:30,240 Speaker 1: and it's all contained in this what remains of this pantyhose, 535 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:33,160 Speaker 1: and you know that they're made out of a synthetic. 536 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:36,760 Speaker 1: More than likely it's probably a synthetic blend of something, 537 00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:40,640 Speaker 1: because it's not just pure nylon, it's probably something else. 538 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:45,360 Speaker 1: It gives you an idea, I think when you really 539 00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:48,840 Speaker 1: scratch your head over how resilient these materials are. And 540 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 1: if I'm not mistaken, they found her skirt or a dress. 541 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:57,440 Speaker 2: It was a great dress that she wore. And just 542 00:33:57,640 --> 00:33:59,840 Speaker 2: so it can be clear here she was kind of 543 00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:03,680 Speaker 2: a large lady. And oftentimes, when we're in our mid 544 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 2: to late fifties, if we're not people of means and 545 00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:10,200 Speaker 2: we're large, we don't have a big wardrobe. And Martha 546 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:12,560 Speaker 2: was a person who didn't have much of a wardrobe, 547 00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:15,520 Speaker 2: and so people knew her by her great, great dress. Yeah, 548 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:18,439 Speaker 2: and they found it. They found enough of the gray 549 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,399 Speaker 2: dress that they were able to use that as part 550 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,799 Speaker 2: of the identific not the actual identification of it. But 551 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:27,520 Speaker 2: like backing up, they were talking about how everything they 552 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:30,960 Speaker 2: found in the car of hers it just reinforced the 553 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:32,560 Speaker 2: fact that it was her, because. 554 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:35,719 Speaker 1: A, yeah, it's a confirmatory piece of that. Yeah, you're 555 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:36,600 Speaker 1: absolutely right, man. 556 00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:39,840 Speaker 2: But they didn't find anything from Flora or from John. 557 00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:45,200 Speaker 1: What are they that? Well, I gotta tell you, I've 558 00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:49,239 Speaker 1: never been to the Kentucky River all right. Now. My 559 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 1: understanding is where the car went in is near an 560 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,880 Speaker 1: old ferry site, and I think the fairy still actually exists. 561 00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:58,520 Speaker 2: This Wait a minute, this is what you were talking 562 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:01,279 Speaker 2: to me about off air that would have been deeper there. 563 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:06,520 Speaker 1: Well yeah, yeah, because it didn't go off it's hard 564 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:09,799 Speaker 1: to understand. But let's say, for instance, it went off 565 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:13,480 Speaker 1: of a bridge, all right, went off of a bridge. 566 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:16,719 Speaker 1: Generally around the pilings of a bridge, you're going to 567 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:23,560 Speaker 1: have a lot more depth, perhaps, and depending upon depth. 568 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:28,560 Speaker 1: First off, things are going to sink to the bottom. 569 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:31,960 Speaker 1: You're talking about a car. Car is not going to float. 570 00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:33,480 Speaker 2: Here. 571 00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:39,040 Speaker 1: Here's what's kind of fascinating. I think if we believe 572 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:46,680 Speaker 1: that that car did not have air conditioning, Dude, it's 573 00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:52,239 Speaker 1: August in the South. Guess what. The fair Lane is 574 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:54,919 Speaker 1: a two door car, so they would have had both 575 00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:57,160 Speaker 1: of those windows down. I think it had vent windows 576 00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:59,640 Speaker 1: in the back. Remember vent windows. They would roll down there, 577 00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:02,520 Speaker 1: kind of angle shaped, so you've got this big, wide 578 00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:07,120 Speaker 1: open space. For some reason, Martha is perhaps she may 579 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:09,920 Speaker 1: have been in the back seat, so that would facilitate 580 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:13,280 Speaker 1: her being wedged in the back seat. The other two 581 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:17,120 Speaker 1: if they're not belted, which most people were not belted, 582 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:19,360 Speaker 1: and even if you were, I think most OF's cars 583 00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,880 Speaker 1: came with only lap belts. Dude, with the flow and 584 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:25,399 Speaker 1: the volume of water in there, they're going to float out, 585 00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:28,000 Speaker 1: and Lord only knows where they wound up. You know, 586 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:32,280 Speaker 1: those those bodies wound up downstream somewhere, I think. Okay, 587 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:36,920 Speaker 1: but the fact that she was even found, or what 588 00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:42,840 Speaker 1: remained of her body was found inside of that vehicle 589 00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:46,759 Speaker 1: is pretty fascinating. I even think this was I don't 590 00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:49,320 Speaker 1: know there's something that it was kind of creepy chilling 591 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,560 Speaker 1: to me. They actually found her coin purse as well, 592 00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:55,640 Speaker 1: I believe didn't they day and it still had coins 593 00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:57,360 Speaker 1: in it. But you had mentioned something else that was 594 00:36:57,400 --> 00:36:58,920 Speaker 1: kind of significant. 595 00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 2: Hedocky act. I had a key for a trailer, and 596 00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:05,080 Speaker 2: you and I looked this up because the key was 597 00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:08,400 Speaker 2: for a trailer, like we were wondering, is it like 598 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:12,040 Speaker 2: a camper trailer or a house trailer, No matter what 599 00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:15,880 Speaker 2: it was, it was identified as this camper trailer or 600 00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:18,640 Speaker 2: this trailer rather that she used to live in. It 601 00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:21,279 Speaker 2: was a very significant fine because everything they found just 602 00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:25,000 Speaker 2: confirmed who they had found, all the way, from the 603 00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:26,760 Speaker 2: shoe to the nihil. 604 00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:27,760 Speaker 1: You know, the bone. 605 00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:30,279 Speaker 2: The bone is what got me. The bone fracture that 606 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:33,080 Speaker 2: didn't heal, the shoe that has to have a bigger heel. 607 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:35,839 Speaker 2: That little coin purse, I mean, how do you find 608 00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:39,160 Speaker 2: that in a river after forty years? You know? 609 00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:44,120 Speaker 1: It just I'm wondering if when this is a fascinating 610 00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:46,200 Speaker 1: thing to me, when they because you got to take 611 00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:48,360 Speaker 1: great care of Dave. You know, you had already said 612 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:51,360 Speaker 1: that this car is fragile. Yeah, there's a picture of 613 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:54,040 Speaker 1: it that exists. And when you said it's rusted out, brother, 614 00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:57,960 Speaker 1: it is rusted out. You would have to take this 615 00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:00,400 Speaker 1: is not something you're not just lifting log side of 616 00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:05,359 Speaker 1: a river that a beaver dam or stones that are 617 00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:09,360 Speaker 1: You're talking about the totality of that vehicle is evidence 618 00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:11,839 Speaker 1: and you would have to take such care with it's 619 00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:16,160 Speaker 1: so very fragile. This is an artifact almost to get 620 00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:18,799 Speaker 1: it over to shore and set down carefully so that 621 00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:22,399 Speaker 1: you could examine everything. And just so folks understand, when 622 00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:26,680 Speaker 1: you pull something out of a river like this, your 623 00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:31,399 Speaker 1: biggest your biggest obstacle, one of the biggest obstacles you're 624 00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:34,560 Speaker 1: going to have is going to be mud and silt. 625 00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:38,040 Speaker 1: It is going to be jam packed with this stuff. 626 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:40,759 Speaker 1: So you would have to go in and I can 627 00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:45,480 Speaker 1: only imagine, depending upon the attitude of the vehicle, the 628 00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:48,680 Speaker 1: physical attitude of the vehicle in the water, over all 629 00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:51,480 Speaker 1: these years with water floods. You can imagine all the 630 00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:56,120 Speaker 1: years that river's flooded since that fateful night in nineteen 631 00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:59,800 Speaker 1: seventy three, things being washed in, washed out, maybe trees 632 00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:02,479 Speaker 1: hung up on it, all of this other stuff. It's 633 00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:06,800 Speaker 1: all settling to the bottom and maybe just maybe that's 634 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:10,759 Speaker 1: why they found the remnant of the foot and the 635 00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:14,200 Speaker 1: nihl on. Maybe it was buried beneath the silt contained 636 00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:18,480 Speaker 1: within the car, all that deposition of stuff that was 637 00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:21,600 Speaker 1: in there for years and years. But they can't find 638 00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:26,360 Speaker 1: hiding the hair of these other two occupants. They've they're gone, 639 00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:29,640 Speaker 1: I mean gone, as in gone gone. You'll never see 640 00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:32,640 Speaker 1: them again because the Lord only knows where those bodies 641 00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:35,919 Speaker 1: wound up. But you know, Martha was there to tell 642 00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:38,839 Speaker 1: the tale, Dave, and the tragedy of this, I think, 643 00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:42,520 Speaker 1: and I'm not trying to diminish the World War One veteran, 644 00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:48,680 Speaker 1: but you've you've got sisters here, and the impact that 645 00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:51,960 Speaker 1: that's going to have is far reaching, and it's generational. 646 00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:55,640 Speaker 1: That's that's a sorrow that never goes away. It's something 647 00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:58,600 Speaker 1: that people will remember. It becomes the stuff of lore 648 00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:01,879 Speaker 1: and family, you know, for for younger and younger generations. 649 00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:08,200 Speaker 1: But the fact that this firefighter, this deputy chief, would 650 00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:11,840 Speaker 1: be willing to engage in this and he's becoming you know, 651 00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:16,480 Speaker 1: he's you don't normally think of firefighters as investigators. Now 652 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:19,640 Speaker 1: you think of arson investigators. But you know, he begins 653 00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:22,480 Speaker 1: on his own to do Google searches and you know, 654 00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:27,000 Speaker 1: they wind up. Actually, I think that he connected through 655 00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:30,600 Speaker 1: a blog that turned out, you know, where where they 656 00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:34,080 Speaker 1: found this family in Virginia from all these years ago, 657 00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:37,920 Speaker 1: where these loved ones are missing. And you know, can 658 00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:43,840 Speaker 1: you imagine getting this thunderbolt out out of nowhere of people, 659 00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:46,960 Speaker 1: you know, saying, look, we might have information about this 660 00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:50,560 Speaker 1: missing family member of yours. But you know, the beauty 661 00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:55,239 Speaker 1: of this is that as a result, and this is 662 00:40:55,280 --> 00:41:01,200 Speaker 1: quite amazing to me scientifically, that these skeletal elements that 663 00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:06,719 Speaker 1: they took such care with the recovery of actually yielded 664 00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:11,719 Speaker 1: viable DNA. And now these things had been submerged all 665 00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:15,120 Speaker 1: of this time. Dave, he was able to go out 666 00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:17,920 Speaker 1: or they were able to go out and get a 667 00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:26,040 Speaker 1: third generation DNA sample from a descendant of this family. 668 00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:30,160 Speaker 1: And David was a spot on match, spot on match 669 00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:35,160 Speaker 1: to Martha's family. Can you imagine this just out of nowhere. Now, 670 00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:41,400 Speaker 1: you know, we'll probably never know what actually happened to 671 00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:47,560 Speaker 1: John Keaton and unfortunately Flora, but we have established that 672 00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:53,000 Speaker 1: they were all there together that night when that car 673 00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:59,759 Speaker 1: went in to that river in Kentucky in that black 674 00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:04,160 Speaker 1: name driven off and began to sink to the bottom, 675 00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:10,080 Speaker 1: but one witness remained, and that was the mortal remains 676 00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:16,680 Speaker 1: of Martha Helmet. She bore testimony that they were there, 677 00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:22,000 Speaker 1: and that in some ways she was still there, and 678 00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:28,320 Speaker 1: only all that remains told the final tale. I'm Joseph 679 00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:31,680 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan and this is body bags.