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Speaker 1: All right, this is Annie and this is Bridget and

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Speaker 1: you're listening to Stuff I'm Never told you. Hello, Listen,

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Speaker 1: there's been a while you may have been wondering where

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Speaker 1: I've been. Um, several of you have left really sweet

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Speaker 1: comments on my social media asking me what's been going

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Speaker 1: on with me and why you haven't heard from me.

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Speaker 1: And I've missed y'all so terribly. So I'm really excited

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Speaker 1: to be talking to you all today. Um, but I

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Speaker 1: guess we should probably start with a little bit of

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Speaker 1: an announcement, a little housekeeping, which is that my time

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Speaker 1: at the Holm with stuff I'm Never told you is

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Speaker 1: sadly coming to a close. And don't worry, you will

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Speaker 1: still be able to hear all the kind of exciting

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Speaker 1: things that I'm up to you. Very soon, I'll have

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Speaker 1: some exciting news, news show stuff happening that you will

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Speaker 1: certainly be hearing all about out on this very program.

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Speaker 1: But until then, this is sort of my my kind

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Speaker 1: of winding down. So it's been a really fun couple

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Speaker 1: of years, you know, doing some minty. Some of you

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Speaker 1: all been listening since before, when it was Kristen and Caroline,

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Speaker 1: then when it was me and Emily, and then when

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Speaker 1: Annie came on board. UM, Honestly, it's been such a

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Speaker 1: fun thing in my life and now I feel like

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Speaker 1: I am so so poised and so so excited to

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Speaker 1: just keep telling awesome stories about really rad ladies. And

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Speaker 1: so stay tuned for new exciting news about what I'll

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Speaker 1: be up to very very soon. But in the meantime,

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Speaker 1: I just want to thank so many of you for

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Speaker 1: reaching out while I was away. I really really appreciate it. Also,

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Speaker 1: so many of you know I had a death in

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Speaker 1: the family, and so I wanted to thank so many

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Speaker 1: of the listeners for really being so supportive UM with

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Speaker 1: me and that I really really appreciate it. And it's

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Speaker 1: been such a fun ride. So let's stay tuned. Yes,

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Speaker 1: it has been such a fun ride, and it's been

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Speaker 1: such an honor and such an inspiring thing for me

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Speaker 1: to work with the Bridget And I'm so excited to

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Speaker 1: see what you're going to be up to. I'm so

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Speaker 1: sad that you're leaving. That I'm so excited for for

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Speaker 1: future projects. UM, and you are one of these these

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Speaker 1: rad women that I feel lucky to even no of

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Speaker 1: much less like no personally. So I am I'm very

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Speaker 1: glad that I had this opportunity to work with you. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: me too. It's been really fun. Yeah. Um. But all

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Speaker 1: of that aside, we do have an episode for you.

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Speaker 1: That's right. Um. Some of you who have been listening

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Speaker 1: for a long time know that I created this thing

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Speaker 1: on the show. I mean, I didn't create the concept,

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Speaker 1: but I created the idea of talking about problematic daves

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Speaker 1: on Sminty because so many of you reached out saying, Oh,

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Speaker 1: I love so and so, or I love such and such,

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Speaker 1: but I know they they're kind of problematic, and so

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Speaker 1: some of the problematic days that we that we've unpacked

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Speaker 1: and dove into on the show. Of then folks like

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Speaker 1: Taylor Swift, who was one of Emily's problematic faves. Many

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Speaker 1: of you remember my problematic fave, Judge Judy. She's still

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Speaker 1: my fave, um, and probably the most requested problematic fave

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Speaker 1: that we've gotten when we started doing this series is

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Speaker 1: none other than Lena Dunham. I have to say, uh,

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Speaker 1: full disclosure, I think I have I have purposely neglected

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Speaker 1: talking about Lena Dunham for a couple of reasons. One

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Speaker 1: of them is just so folks know, is that I've

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Speaker 1: met her, I would not say that we're friends, but

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Speaker 1: when I lived in New York, I would say that

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Speaker 1: we ran in sort of similar ish circles. Like I

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Speaker 1: think that's probably a good way to frame it. You know,

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Speaker 1: when we've met, it's been cool hanging out with her,

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Speaker 1: you know, totally fine, but it kind of made it

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Speaker 1: awkward to be, you know, doing a podcast and packing

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Speaker 1: in the way such as problematic. And I say this because,

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Speaker 1: as you know, with this series, we are all problematic.

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Speaker 1: I'm problematic, you're problematic. Everyone's problematic. So the reason why

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Speaker 1: we like talking about problematic days is not to like

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Speaker 1: trash people or drag people or whatever. It's to think

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Speaker 1: about the ways that we can all be better. And

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Speaker 1: I think that really brings us to why she is

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Speaker 1: such a important figure when we think about, you know,

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Speaker 1: people whose arn't we love, who we wish would get better.

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Speaker 1: And for me, I mean, I love Lena Dunham's work.

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Speaker 1: I I don't know if I should be like ashamed

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Speaker 1: to admit this. Um, I think she's a really really talented,

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Speaker 1: like rare creative talent. But you know, it's so so

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Speaker 1: difficult to constantly overlook things where you just scratch your

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Speaker 1: head into like what are you thinking? Why would you

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Speaker 1: do this? And it really it's time I I grappled

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Speaker 1: with it, I think, And why not let the entire

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Speaker 1: siminty listenership in on that, like awkward grab ling. Yes,

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Speaker 1: let's all grapple awkwardly together. I have to admit I

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Speaker 1: don't know much about Lena Dunham other than people on

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Speaker 1: Twitter seemed to very much dislike her. Um and I

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Speaker 1: had a friend who really loved Girls the show, and

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Speaker 1: I saw a couple episodes of that and I have

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Speaker 1: a weird thing about years and I don't know if

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Speaker 1: people have seen the show, but she has a weird

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Speaker 1: thing about years and it like really disturbed me, like

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Speaker 1: that it stuck with me. And she had that pencil

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Speaker 1: in her ear anyway. That's Oh and she was best friends,

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Speaker 1: I guess with Taylor Swift for a while. Yeah. They were,

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Speaker 1: they were they were buds. They were buds. That's like

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Speaker 1: my my knowledge of Lena Dunham, all of it. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I almost think I I was able to be a

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Speaker 1: fan of hers early on because when Girls came out,

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Speaker 1: I didn't have HBO, and so I my first introduction

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Speaker 1: to Lena Dunham was the film Tiny Furniture, which I

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Speaker 1: love and I will stand for it. I think it's

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Speaker 1: a great, a great piece of film. Um. But when

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Speaker 1: all the hoopla was going on about Girls, when it

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Speaker 1: was when Girls was getting a lot of criticism and

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Speaker 1: fair criticism at being you know, this show about like

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Speaker 1: entitled white women in New York, I missed so much

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Speaker 1: of that because I didn't have HBO. I just knew

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Speaker 1: of Lenda Don him as this filmmaker who I liked,

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Speaker 1: and so I didn't really get this chance to explore

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Speaker 1: that aspect of the criticism until later. So I kind

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Speaker 1: of came through a backdoor kind of approach with her.

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Speaker 1: I will say, one of the reasons that I find

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Speaker 1: her so fascinating is, like you said, Annie, she is

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Speaker 1: this lightning rod person. And I'm the kind of person

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Speaker 1: who when a woman is when everybody hates a woman,

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Speaker 1: I'm always like, oh, she would be interesting. You know

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Speaker 1: that that that always I I am someone who is

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Speaker 1: fascinated by these really polarizing female creators. And certainly Lena

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Speaker 1: Dunham is not the first filmmaker or artist or creative

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Speaker 1: talent to be accused of being like a crappy person,

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Speaker 1: and I think that we do give men a much

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Speaker 1: bigger leeway to be crappy and to make good art, right,

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Speaker 1: Like men are not just not held accountable for being

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Speaker 1: crappy people the way that women are. Like that's just

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Speaker 1: um a universal um. And it's interesting because in working

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Speaker 1: in my background, working as like a social media person

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Speaker 1: or a digital strategist for brands and organizations, you know

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Speaker 1: that work, you see people who leave comments on the Internet,

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Speaker 1: like you see their most base selves a lot of

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Speaker 1: times and universally everywhere that I have, you know, managed

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Speaker 1: a Facebook page and Instagram account, whatever, if they do

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Speaker 1: anything with Lena Dunham, pure hate in the comments. She's

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Speaker 1: the only figure that I can tell you that if

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Speaker 1: you post something, even something nice, you know, Lena Dunham

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Speaker 1: save the Kitten, pure hate in the comments. I didn't

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Speaker 1: even shouln't even say that because she had drama with

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Speaker 1: her animals, so I shouldn't even bring that up. That's

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Speaker 1: not even that's a bad example, but um, yeah, she's

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Speaker 1: like it could be the most non controversial Matthewis thing

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Speaker 1: and every comment is going to be like, oh, I

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Speaker 1: hate her, I hate her, I hate her. I hate her,

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Speaker 1: not just for men, from everybody. So I she is

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Speaker 1: someone who is a lightning rod, a lightning rod for sure.

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Speaker 1: Oh I would agree. Um I. I just every time

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Speaker 1: I see something trending with her on Twitter, it's always

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Speaker 1: bad and it kind of surprises me how often. I'm

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Speaker 1: not someone who's on Twitter that often. So if I

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Speaker 1: see something and I notice, Wow, that's happening again, it's

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Speaker 1: kind of it surprises me. Yeah, it is. Whatever you

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Speaker 1: see her trending is never because of something good. I'll

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Speaker 1: put it that way. I bet. I bet her publicist

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Speaker 1: and her team is always like, oh no, she's trying

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Speaker 1: to get They probably get no sleep because it happens.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there's a thing on Twitter that is a

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Speaker 1: Lena Dunham apology aggregator, where it's just a collection of

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Speaker 1: it's a Twitter account that's like just a collection of

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Speaker 1: kind of nonsensical things that Lena Dunham would be apologizing for. So,

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Speaker 1: so here's a taste of the kind of things that

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Speaker 1: you would get from this apology aggregator. Lenda Dunham apologizes

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Speaker 1: that Taco Bell drive through window, proclaiming that Sinco de

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Speaker 1: Maya was a Mexican Maynonnaise festival that appropriated white culture.

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Speaker 1: So it's like these these nonsense sort of social justice

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Speaker 1: e words kind of put together in a way that

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Speaker 1: really doesn't make sense. But in the universe of Lena

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Speaker 1: Dunham having to apologize for things, who knows, because she

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Speaker 1: has to apologize for things so regularly. Yeah, it does

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Speaker 1: seem that way. And and we're going to talk about, um,

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Speaker 1: some of those some of those instances where she's had

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Speaker 1: to apologize, But first let's let's talk about her past

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Speaker 1: and kind of the work that she's done. Yeah, So,

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Speaker 1: like I said, I she was one of my saves

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Speaker 1: and I do genuinely believe that she is a a

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Speaker 1: a good artist. So a little bit about her. She

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Speaker 1: got her start in creative work pretty early on while

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Speaker 1: she was a student in Oberlin College. She went viral

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Speaker 1: very early on YouTube for making this video of herself

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Speaker 1: wearing a bikini and brushing her teeth in a fountain,

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Speaker 1: like in a fountain at Oberlin And this video it

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Speaker 1: was one of those things where it became viral for

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Speaker 1: people hating on it um And you know, she eventually

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Speaker 1: took this video down because of all the hate that

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Speaker 1: she got in the video. Rebecca meade over at The

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Speaker 1: New Yorker wrote her blithe willingness to dis row without

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Speaker 1: shame caused an outburst of censure from viewers. Donam herself

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Speaker 1: said she didn't want to google herself and have the

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Speaker 1: first hit be people talking about how Misshape and her

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Speaker 1: breasts or how fat she was, and that's why she

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Speaker 1: took the video down. But I gotta say, I mean

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Speaker 1: that being her early foray into creative public, creative work,

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Speaker 1: I found some interesting because it can be really difficult

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Speaker 1: to be a woman, especially a woman that's not you know, assize,

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Speaker 1: to assize four to put yourself out there like that.

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Speaker 1: And I've always respected that she is someone who does

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Speaker 1: not shrink away from using her body to tell stories

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Speaker 1: about who she is and in a way that you

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Speaker 1: know that in a way that she controls, and she

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Speaker 1: gets a lot of hate for that. And that's something

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Speaker 1: that I that I definitely definitely admire about her because

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Speaker 1: it can be hard. It can be hard, Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: for sure. Yeah. The couple of episodes that I've seen

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Speaker 1: of girls, I did appreciate um kind of the courage

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Speaker 1: of being authentic with her body type. And I guess

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Speaker 1: not always the most flattering presentation of UM, even just

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Speaker 1: her clothing choices. I remember episode where she was like

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Speaker 1: wearing a a fishnet yellow top and nothing else. So

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Speaker 1: I did that was something that I thought was very UM,

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Speaker 1: at least at the time for me, unique and I

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Speaker 1: didn't see things like that often. Yeah, it is unique,

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Speaker 1: and I think it's interesting, like what kind of bodies

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Speaker 1: we are told get to have, you know, what kind

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Speaker 1: of what kind of lens put on them? You know,

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Speaker 1: if if she had a different kind of body type,

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Speaker 1: her being in a yellow see through mess shirt would

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Speaker 1: not be unusual to see on TV. And I think people, yeah, like,

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Speaker 1: I think that's just really bold and also knowing that

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Speaker 1: you're gonna get hate for it. Like one of the

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Speaker 1: criticisms people make of Lena Dunham is that she's always naked,

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Speaker 1: always showing her body this and that, and I just

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Speaker 1: think that's really a really interesting criticism about her. Also,

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Speaker 1: when she was diagnosed with UM indometrio this and got

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Speaker 1: a HYS direct to me. You know, if you if

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Speaker 1: you follow her social media, she's posted lots of images

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Speaker 1: of her body and what that's been like for her

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Speaker 1: and her body, which I think is also very very bold,

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Speaker 1: because again, whose bodies are being told get to have

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Speaker 1: a certain kind of lens applied to them? Thin bodies,

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Speaker 1: quote unquote, healthy bodies, sick bodies? Like, what are the

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Speaker 1: bodies that are allowed to be presented in certain kinds

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Speaker 1: of light and what aren't? And she was someone I mean,

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Speaker 1: I know that there have been plenty of artists who

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Speaker 1: have done that before, but for me, she was someone

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Speaker 1: who really got me thinking about that in ways that

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Speaker 1: I hadn't before. Yeah, I would agree, um, And it

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Speaker 1: is vulnerable to put yourself out there like that, um,

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Speaker 1: and to open yourself up to that kind of criticism. Definitely.

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Speaker 1: Another thing I really admired about her is that her

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Speaker 1: art is very kind of tends to be self reflective.

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Speaker 1: You know, a lot of her earlier work was about

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Speaker 1: satirizing the art scene of which she was a part.

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Speaker 1: In two thousand nine, she had a series called Delusional

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Speaker 1: Downtown Divas, which satirized a group of sort of vapid

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Speaker 1: people working in art in New York, which I'm assuming

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Speaker 1: that's probably not far off from her own experience. And

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Speaker 1: I thought that was really cool, Like self, it made

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Speaker 1: me think, like, oh, this is an artist who is

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Speaker 1: capable of self reflection and self self scrutiny and making

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Speaker 1: a joke out of their own ridiculous life. That's something

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Speaker 1: that I really like. I know that a lot of

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Speaker 1: people think that kind of has its own sort of

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Speaker 1: sense of narcissism with it, and maybe it does. But again,

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Speaker 1: men are allowed to be narcissistic all the time. It's

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Speaker 1: we don't even question it. We don't even call it

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Speaker 1: narcissism or vanity. And I think that when a woman

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Speaker 1: uses her art to look within, to look at her

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Speaker 1: friends stake in her life, it's so much easier to say, oh,

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Speaker 1: she is you know, she's vain. Like I saw this

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Speaker 1: meme that made no sense on Twitter. It was a

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Speaker 1: freed to Hello painting of herself and the caption said,

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Speaker 1: of course the most one of the most famous female

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Speaker 1: artists basically just does selfies. And I was like, how

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Speaker 1: many male painters did self portraits? Literally that's all they did.

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Speaker 1: No one calls no one calls van goh you know something, yeah,

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Speaker 1: like oh, what a narcissist. It's like, yeah, it's just

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Speaker 1: only because it's a woman and it's associated with femininity

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Speaker 1: that it gets that label. Applied to it pejoratively, right. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: when Amanda, it's just like, oh, art, look at this

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Speaker 1: very interesting art and inge judge in that way. But

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Speaker 1: when a woman does it, it's what what problem? Some

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Speaker 1: problem with her that makes it all about her and

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Speaker 1: not about the art exactly. So it was her film

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Speaker 1: in that really kind of turned her into a breakout star.

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Speaker 1: Tiny Furniture really pushed her over the edge. It won

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Speaker 1: Best Narrative Features south By Southwest, um, and it really

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Speaker 1: it's just like it's like she's like that going was

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Speaker 1: the reason why, like we really know who she is. Um.

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Speaker 1: It's clearly kind of autobiographical. It stars Lena Dunham as Aura,

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Speaker 1: who's just graduated from college moves back to New York

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Speaker 1: to live with her like artist mother, and it's really

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Speaker 1: one of those films about mother daughter dynamics. And honestly,

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Speaker 1: like when I saw it it, I thought it was

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Speaker 1: brilliant because it really did explore this feeling that you

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Speaker 1: kind of have when you're maybe around your twenties where

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Speaker 1: you love your mother and you respect your mother and

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Speaker 1: you admire your mother, but you also are struggling to

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Speaker 1: feel separate from your mother and independent from your mother

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Speaker 1: and and figuring out who you are and sort of

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Speaker 1: looking to your mother for guidance, but also feeling that

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Speaker 1: tension of I'm not my mother, even though in a

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Speaker 1: lot of ways, if you're anything like me, you're very

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Speaker 1: similar to her. And you know that feeling when you

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Speaker 1: graduate college and you're that's not weird, in between of

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Speaker 1: I'm not a child, but I don't feel like an adult,

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Speaker 1: but I should feel like an adult because I am

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Speaker 1: an adult. Like that feeling, I feel like she captured

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Speaker 1: so well in a way that really spoke to where

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Speaker 1: I was in my life when I saw it. And

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Speaker 1: this was your introduction, like you said to Lena Dunham,

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Speaker 1: right exactly, I had never heard of her before. I

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Speaker 1: didn't know anything about her other work. This was the

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Speaker 1: first time I'd ever heard her, and I just thought, oh,

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Speaker 1: what a what an interesting and unique voice. I think

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Speaker 1: a lot of people did. I think we weren't. I

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Speaker 1: think that at that time in media, we were telling

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Speaker 1: a very specific story about what it meant to be

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Speaker 1: a woman, and I think you know that was this

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Speaker 1: was coming off things like sex in the City, where

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Speaker 1: it was very much like glamorous white women who have

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Speaker 1: glamorous jobs in the city who are figuring out life

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Speaker 1: and love, and you know, a lot of us didn't.

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Speaker 1: That's that I loved that show, but that experience didn't

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Speaker 1: I feel like my experience. And even though her work

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Speaker 1: is still very much about you know, white women, which

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Speaker 1: will get to in a second, that was a time

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Speaker 1: where I felt, yes, someone is speaking to it. Seems

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Speaker 1: like when you when you don't feel like you have

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Speaker 1: this like glamorous life of the city, we saw shows

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Speaker 1: like Broad City and Insecure really speak to that. I

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Speaker 1: think that she did a good job of sort of

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Speaker 1: making room for women to talk about these experiences that

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Speaker 1: maybe you didn't feel so great where you did feel

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Speaker 1: insecure and unsure and like weird about your body and

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Speaker 1: weird about your job and weird about your friends. Um,

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Speaker 1: and you didn't have to have this guy's of having

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Speaker 1: it all and being so polishing together and that was okay.

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Speaker 1: I think I think it's I think it opened up

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Speaker 1: the door to a different kind of reflection of female

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Speaker 1: experiences that I was really grateful for. Yeah, and this

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Speaker 1: movie is what got her the blind Script deal at HBO,

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Speaker 1: right exactly. So, I mean one of the charges that

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Speaker 1: she kind of gets And I don't know if this

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Speaker 1: is fair or not, but that she's that it's like

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Speaker 1: nepotism because her mother is Laurie Siddens, was a phenomenal,

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Speaker 1: phenomenal and very famous visual artists and that, you know,

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Speaker 1: so I think it's a fair question. You know, if

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Speaker 1: you were kind of an unknown filmmaker, would you be

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Speaker 1: able to get the same kind of platform that Lena

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Speaker 1: Dunham got off the success of one film? But I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think that's a fair question. I think Tiny Furniture

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Speaker 1: was a genuinely, really interesting, good movie, and so it

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Speaker 1: doesn't surprise me that HBO saw her as as hot

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Speaker 1: young talent and wanted to invest in her early. And

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Speaker 1: I mean, she got that deal when she was very young.

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Speaker 1: So I still think it's very impressive. Whether or not

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Speaker 1: she you know it, I'm sure, I'm certainly sure that

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Speaker 1: it helped. That she is a wealthy, well connected, white

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Speaker 1: young woman living in New York. You know, I'm sure

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Speaker 1: that didn't hurt. But that doesn't change the fact that

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Speaker 1: I think that she did make a really really good

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Speaker 1: piece of art that stands on its own. And then

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Speaker 1: after that is when things really started taking off. For her.

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Speaker 1: Correct exactly. So, the late David Carr, who many of

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Speaker 1: y'all might remember, was this prolific writer in the New

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Speaker 1: York Times, did this profile of her, and that was

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Speaker 1: like the thing that kind of made her that get

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Speaker 1: cemented her hot, young, talented thing, you know, cred in

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Speaker 1: the industry. So you know, it was off of that

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Speaker 1: piece that she was introduced to Judd Apataw, who she

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Speaker 1: ended up working with on Girls, and everything sort of

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Speaker 1: just like fall into place for her after that, after

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Speaker 1: that article was published, and so really it's one of

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Speaker 1: those stories. Again, did it did it help that she

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Speaker 1: was so well connected from her like family? Of course

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Speaker 1: it did. I'm sure that it did. Like, let's not

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Speaker 1: let's not pretend that Lena Dunham totally you know, pulled

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Speaker 1: herself up by her bootstraps and was you know, working

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Speaker 1: in a factory and then you know, became a talented artist. No,

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Speaker 1: of course, not like that's not what happened, um, But

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Speaker 1: you know, it was these kind of things that kind

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Speaker 1: of cemented her career. I think maybe it's fair to

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Speaker 1: wonder if those things are deserved because of the opportunities

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Speaker 1: that certainly open to her as somebody who was very

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Speaker 1: well connected and you know, wealthy and all of that.

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Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean that she can't be talented, like

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Speaker 1: I think both can be true. Yeah, and from all

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Speaker 1: of this comes Girls, which was a very critically successful

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Speaker 1: show on HBO. I remember when my friend who loved it,

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Speaker 1: when she was telling me about it, she said she

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Speaker 1: hadn't she hadn't seen anything like it before, and that

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Speaker 1: I had to check it out, and um, people were

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Speaker 1: talking about it. It was a pretty big deal. It

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Speaker 1: was a big deal. And I think one of the

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Speaker 1: reasons why I sort of like what I was saying before,

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Speaker 1: is that it's refreshing to see depictions of young womanhood

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Speaker 1: that are just different, you know, like it's I think

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Speaker 1: the more stories that we get told, the different layers, um,

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Speaker 1: the better. And I think one of the reasons why

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Speaker 1: I'm so personal I have such personal grappling with her

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Speaker 1: is that Girls really did feel like, you know, depicting

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Speaker 1: away that I felt on screen. And that's why it's

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Speaker 1: so frustrating when Lena Dunham can get she can get

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Speaker 1: something so right and then get other things so wrong.

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Speaker 1: It's like, I want so badly for her to be

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Speaker 1: there because I do think she's so talented. And when

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Speaker 1: someone when someone speaks to you in a way that

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Speaker 1: feels like the truth, you kind of this is. This

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Speaker 1: is why like thaves and stand culture and all of

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00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:33,200
Speaker 1: that is so tricky. It's so easy. This would have

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Speaker 1: give yourself over to that feeling and give yourself over

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Speaker 1: to them in a kind of way because they spoke

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Speaker 1: to something in you. And then to find out, just

405
00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:44,520
Speaker 1: like all of us, the problematic is they say racist,

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Speaker 1: they say able ish, they say because homophobic, they do

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Speaker 1: things that are upsetting their sexual abusers, whatever. You know,

408
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:55,600
Speaker 1: finding that how it feels like a betrayal because you

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Speaker 1: because you kind of trusted them, you kind of allowed

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Speaker 1: yourself to be like, oh, this is someone who spoke

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Speaker 1: to something in me. And that's what makes it so

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Speaker 1: hard it does it. This is something that I've been

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Speaker 1: wrestling with a lot too, and I think a lot

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Speaker 1: of us have. But it also, on top of feeling

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Speaker 1: like a betrayal, it feels like, at least in my case,

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Speaker 1: this is you're connecting with someone because it feels like

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Speaker 1: they're maybe telling a story that feels like your story

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00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:26,679
Speaker 1: are important to you, and it feels like it's almost

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Speaker 1: like you did this terrible thing because it feels like

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Speaker 1: they're you're connecting with them as an audience member um

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Speaker 1: or as a consumer of their entertainment, and in that way.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes I it's the strangest thing of feeling like by

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Speaker 1: liking this person and then they did this thing like

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00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:50,879
Speaker 1: guilty by association almost you know what I mean? Oh,

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00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:56,560
Speaker 1: completely completely. This is why if there's one by product

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Speaker 1: of the me Too movement is that I don't stay

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Speaker 1: in it for anybody. I'm like, I liked this movie,

428
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:04,360
Speaker 1: I liked this song. I don't know what you're doing

429
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:06,320
Speaker 1: in your personal life. I don't know. I don't I

430
00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:08,280
Speaker 1: don't want to. I don't want to like attach my

431
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:13,640
Speaker 1: attached greater meeting tough feelings around anyone. I'm like, yeah,

432
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:16,320
Speaker 1: I liked I like this movie. We'll see jury still

433
00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:20,359
Speaker 1: out And I think, honestly, someone who I think really

434
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:23,440
Speaker 1: modeled this in an interesting way is the filmmaker and

435
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:27,879
Speaker 1: actress Credit Girwig. Uh After Me Too had a lot

436
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:32,680
Speaker 1: of actors questioning who they would work with. You know.

437
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:37,560
Speaker 1: Greta Gerwig is this amazing feminist woman filmmaker. She directed

438
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 1: the movie Ladybird, which was a revelation. If you haven't

439
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:42,399
Speaker 1: seen it, you should definitely see it. Would love to

440
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:46,600
Speaker 1: know your thoughts. But Greta Gerwig got asked so many times,

441
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:49,840
Speaker 1: you do this big feminist there's big female icon and filmmaking.

442
00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:52,640
Speaker 1: Why did you work with Woody Allen? And then later

443
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:55,879
Speaker 1: on she said that she regretted it and that she

444
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:59,399
Speaker 1: wouldn't do it again, but that she couldn't change what

445
00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:01,720
Speaker 1: he had meant to her kind of creatively and as

446
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:05,560
Speaker 1: a filmmaker. Here's what she said, Dylan Pharaoh's two different

447
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:08,440
Speaker 1: pieces made me realize that I had increased another woman's pain,

448
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,480
Speaker 1: and I was heartbroken by that realization. I grew up

449
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:13,520
Speaker 1: on his movies and they have informed me as an artist,

450
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:15,639
Speaker 1: and I cannot change that back now, but I can

451
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,720
Speaker 1: make different decisions moving forward. And I just thought that

452
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:23,920
Speaker 1: was so powerful that she was saying, Yeah, like a

453
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 1: lot of us, I let my feelings about this filmmaker

454
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:33,440
Speaker 1: inform my behavior, and I, you know, was in a

455
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:34,879
Speaker 1: movie with him, and it seemed like I was co

456
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:36,920
Speaker 1: signing his behavior and him as a as a person,

457
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:38,920
Speaker 1: and I wasn't, and I regret that. You know, I

458
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:43,439
Speaker 1: think that the ability to do that is it's probably

459
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 1: awkward to but doing it in public, I think it's

460
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 1: really important. And I just really really appreciated that she

461
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,280
Speaker 1: was so open about that choice and how she regretted it.

462
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:54,440
Speaker 1: And that's what I want to be able to do,

463
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:59,040
Speaker 1: to be able to examine how artists and creatives and

464
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:05,320
Speaker 1: whatever who I've really really enjoyed, how their behavior reflects

465
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 1: on my values and whether that's a reflection that I'm

466
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:10,159
Speaker 1: comfortable with And a lot of times the answer is no.

467
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:13,720
Speaker 1: And I think asking those uncomfortable questions as part of

468
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 1: analyzing you know, problematic days and how we're all problematic. Yeah. Um,

469
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,720
Speaker 1: I think I've said before on here that I'm kind

470
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,680
Speaker 1: of where you are, and I just I feel like

471
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:31,440
Speaker 1: everybody now I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop,

472
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:33,800
Speaker 1: which is a horrible situation to be in, but that's

473
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:41,399
Speaker 1: like where where we are. Um. But hopefully by asking

474
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 1: these questions and by examining this kind of like art

475
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 1: and artist and that intersection, and we can move forward

476
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 1: and make space for new art and new artists and

477
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 1: people that aren't doing, um, such problematic things. Although I

478
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:03,360
Speaker 1: believe we will all always be problematic to some degree. Oh,

479
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 1: for sure. I've said it before. My number one problematic

480
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:12,440
Speaker 1: faith is myself. I love it, love it. But getting

481
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:16,440
Speaker 1: back to this problematic fave Lena Dunham. When Girls first

482
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,760
Speaker 1: came out, the first season garnered Dunham four in an

483
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:24,439
Speaker 1: Emmy Award nominations for Acting, writing, Directing, and two Golden

484
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 1: Globes for Best Television Series Musical or Comedy and Best Actress. Um.

485
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 1: In februaryteen, Dunham became the first woman to win a

486
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:35,720
Speaker 1: Director's Guild of America Award for Outstanding Directing a Comedy

487
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:37,920
Speaker 1: Series for her work on Girls. So there was a

488
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 1: lot of critical acclaim for this show. And then in

489
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:44,640
Speaker 1: late she signed a three point five million dollar deal

490
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,359
Speaker 1: with Random House to publish her first book, which is

491
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 1: an essay collection called Not That Kind of Girl. A

492
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:52,080
Speaker 1: Young Woman tells You what She's Learned, and it was

493
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 1: published in September. It reached number two on the New

494
00:27:56,160 --> 00:28:01,360
Speaker 1: York Times bestseller list in October. Yeah, have you read

495
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 1: that book? I have not read that book. Have you

496
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:07,640
Speaker 1: read it? I have. It's good, it's good. I completely

497
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:14,200
Speaker 1: understand why it was so successful. Um, and I remember

498
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:16,399
Speaker 1: there was a contract. There's it was, there was controversy

499
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 1: in the book, which we'll get to in a second.

500
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:20,520
Speaker 1: I remember an early controversy around the book is that she,

501
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,920
Speaker 1: you know, got such a good deal and again, we

502
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 1: cannot divorce her success from all of the various privileges

503
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 1: that that she embodies. Certainly plays into it, but for me,

504
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,159
Speaker 1: it's it's again. I think it can be both that

505
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:38,960
Speaker 1: the that she's a talented writer and she's very privileged,

506
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 1: which helped, and that's okay, um, But you know, as

507
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 1: cool as it is to see a young female creative

508
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 1: talent get successful, people are right to be critical of

509
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 1: a lot of the things that she does. I think

510
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 1: she gets a lot of unfair criticism, but people aren't

511
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:58,719
Speaker 1: wrong to want to hold her accountable, which I think

512
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 1: we should talk about after a quick and we're back. So.

513
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 1: One of the things that people criticize the Show Girls

514
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 1: about is the fact that it is so overwhelmingly white,

515
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 1: and there's just no getting around it. This is a thing.

516
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 1: This is a blind spot. Um. One of, like all

517
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 1: of the different reasons that Lena gave for having the

518
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 1: show be so white in my book, completely fell flat.

519
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:34,680
Speaker 1: You know, in this day and age, if you are

520
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 1: making a show particularly a show about Brooklyn, and that

521
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 1: show does not include diverse way says like what are

522
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:43,480
Speaker 1: you doing? Sex in the City was the exact same way.

523
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,720
Speaker 1: And I can sort of by the argument that Sex

524
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 1: in the City was trying to make New York look

525
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 1: at this fantasy world where you can be a freelance

526
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 1: journalist and afford a Lower East Sideanhattan apartment, you know,

527
00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 1: And part of that fantasy is that there are no

528
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 1: people of I can make. I've heard that argument, and

529
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 1: I can. Maybe I don't buy it, but I can

530
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 1: maybe sort of see it, you know, I can sort

531
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 1: of like I get I get the argument I've never

532
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 1: seen Sex in the City, but you've never seen one episode. No,

533
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 1: I will say it's a that's another problematic faith. But

534
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 1: it is a good show. It's a legitimately enjoyable show.

535
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 1: I feel like I need to I need to dust

536
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 1: up on my Uh. I guess I'm not feminism shows,

537
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 1: but these big milestones and and women on television shows, um,

538
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 1: and watch Sex in the City. I think I'd get

539
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 1: a lot more jokes. Yeah, I mean I watched it

540
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 1: when it was airing, when it was you know, knew

541
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 1: I was in high school and I understood maybe sevent

542
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 1: of it, but I would watch it with my my

543
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 1: friend Kristin, who had HBO. I would go to her

544
00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 1: house and watch it. Um. Yeah, I definitely was probably

545
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 1: too young to understand half of the path of it.

546
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:05,360
Speaker 1: But watching it now as an adult, I definitely. I mean,

547
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:09,120
Speaker 1: you're watching like women who are in their thirties wrestle

548
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 1: with things like oh am I gonna be able to

549
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 1: have a career and a baby. And I was in

550
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 1: high school and I'm not sure I fully understood the

551
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 1: nuances there. Um, but you know, some of these shows

552
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 1: that are about four friends in New York, you know,

553
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:27,440
Speaker 1: for lady friends in New York living their lives. I

554
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 1: having a show like Girls be set in specifically Brooklyn

555
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 1: and be so lacking in diversity, I think it's just

556
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 1: it's just not okay. And I think, you know, when

557
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 1: that show was on the air, for part of it,

558
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 1: I was a twentysomething girl working in media and living

559
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:48,320
Speaker 1: in Brooklyn, and my experience was certainly, you know, diverse.

560
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 1: You know, I'm a black woman. I had friends who

561
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 1: were other black women. I had. Brooklyn is so diverse.

562
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 1: It just didn't make any sense to me to be

563
00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 1: claiming to tell a more authentic story about women coming

564
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 1: of AI in New York and not include people of color.

565
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 1: It just didn't make any sense, and it didn't make

566
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:10,080
Speaker 1: any sense to Jenna Wortham either, the host of the podcast.

567
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 1: Still processing it, she said, the problem with Girls is

568
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:16,160
Speaker 1: that while the show reaches and succeeds in many ways

569
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 1: to show female characters that are not caricatures, it feels

570
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 1: alienating a party of four engineer to appeal to a

571
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:25,520
Speaker 1: very specific subset of the television viewing audience when the

572
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 1: show is the potential to be so much bigger than that,

573
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 1: and that is a huge disappointment. Exactly, she just nails it.

574
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 1: That's exactly how I felt that. It was disappointing that

575
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:43,000
Speaker 1: someone could authentically capture something about being a young person

576
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 1: in New York and then have such a huge blind

577
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 1: spot around race and have none of these characters to

578
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:52,360
Speaker 1: be representing a diverse background at all in a city

579
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 1: like Brooklyn. Lena responded to this criticism, but beyond adding

580
00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 1: Donald Glover to the show for a few episodes, nothing

581
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 1: really changed, and she said, I take that criticism very seriously.

582
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 1: She added, something I wanted to avoid was tokenism and casting.

583
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 1: If I had one of the four girls, for example,

584
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 1: if for example, she was African American, I feel like

585
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:12,960
Speaker 1: not that the experience of an African American girl and

586
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 1: a white girl are drastically different, but there has to

587
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 1: be specific specificity to that experience that I wasn't able

588
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 1: to speak to. I did write something that was super

589
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 1: specific to my experience, and I always want to avoid

590
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 1: rendering and inexperience. I can't speak too accurately. So basically

591
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 1: that's saying, well, I'm a white woman, how could I

592
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 1: ever write about people who aren't white women. I I

593
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:35,360
Speaker 1: completely do not do not buy. I see where she's

594
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 1: coming from. I just do not buy that explanation at all.

595
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 1: Because she writes male character, she's not a man. She

596
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 1: writes characters who are parents, she's not a parent. There

597
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 1: are so few things where you would accept. You know,

598
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 1: I write about my experience, and I can only I cannot.

599
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 1: I cannot even fathom writing about something that's not my

600
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,440
Speaker 1: my own experience. You know, she she does it on

601
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 1: the show, and so I just I just do not

602
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 1: buy that at all. Another thing is us like writing

603
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:07,600
Speaker 1: a show is a team effort. You know, if you

604
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:10,320
Speaker 1: if you want to, if you do want to meaningfully

605
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 1: engage with a different experience, add more color to your

606
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:17,239
Speaker 1: writer's room, get different kinds of faces, you know, at

607
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:19,799
Speaker 1: the table. But she didn't do that. Her writing room

608
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 1: was notoriously white, and so it just seems, you know,

609
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:26,880
Speaker 1: there there is a way to rectify this situation, and

610
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 1: she just did it. Yeah, if you're so uncomfortable writing

611
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:34,759
Speaker 1: for someone who's black, then you could hire someone to

612
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 1: do it. And then she didn't do that either, So yeah,

613
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:41,399
Speaker 1: there there was there were things she could have done,

614
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:44,880
Speaker 1: and she did not do them exactly. So on the

615
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:48,480
Speaker 1: wave of this this series of criticisms, UM people, a

616
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 1: lot of black women really started to push back against

617
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 1: this depiction. Um Zenzi Clemens, who was a black female

618
00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 1: writer who was working for Lena's publication, Lenny Letter U,

619
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:03,320
Speaker 1: which shuttered earlier this year. She quit publicly and accused

620
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:07,759
Speaker 1: Lena of quote hipster racism. Clemens wrote, she and I

621
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:10,960
Speaker 1: ran in the same circles in college. I avoided those

622
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,719
Speaker 1: people Lena and her friends like the plague because if

623
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 1: their well known racism, I call their strain hipster racism,

624
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,640
Speaker 1: which typically uses sarcasm as a cover and in the end,

625
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:23,759
Speaker 1: it looks a lot like gas lighting. It's just a joke.

626
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:26,719
Speaker 1: Why are you overreacting? Is a common response to these

627
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:30,279
Speaker 1: kinds of statements, And boy, howdy do I know that

628
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 1: very well? That's sort of a new thing where the

629
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:38,360
Speaker 1: person I almost don't. I don't know where this attitude

630
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:40,680
Speaker 1: came from, but I have certainly experienced a lot where

631
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 1: people act racist or anti Semitic, and then it's you know, oh,

632
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 1: I'm just joking, wink, like it's really difficult to tell.

633
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 1: And so it's like it's it's gaslighting is the term

634
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:55,719
Speaker 1: for it, because it just is really really confusing and

635
00:35:55,760 --> 00:36:01,719
Speaker 1: it's just unsettling. Yeah, that sounds like if gas lighting

636
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:04,439
Speaker 1: one on one raising a legitimate concern and then being

637
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 1: dismissed as if you're the one who is acting out

638
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:15,879
Speaker 1: of turn exactly. So another kind of very weird thing

639
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:18,920
Speaker 1: that happened that Lena had to apologize for was do

640
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 1: you remember that weird thing with Odell Beckham? I do

641
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:26,800
Speaker 1: not please tell me about it. It was just just

642
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:30,880
Speaker 1: very weird, Like I just feel deep it was just deeply,

643
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:34,279
Speaker 1: deeply strange. So in Lena Donna went to the met Ball,

644
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:36,359
Speaker 1: which if you know, the met Ball. It's this thing

645
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 1: where all the fancy rich, you know, well connected people

646
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:43,360
Speaker 1: all get invited by Anna Wintour from Vogue magazine to

647
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:47,360
Speaker 1: this ball, and you're all supposed to dress kind of people.

648
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:52,240
Speaker 1: It's like people dress. What you wear is very important

649
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 1: to this thing, Like it's like a whole thing. And

650
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:57,640
Speaker 1: so Lena went dressed in I think like a tuxedo

651
00:36:57,840 --> 00:36:59,800
Speaker 1: or a suit, and she was sitting next to the

652
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:04,320
Speaker 1: the football player Odell Beckham Jr. Now she claims that

653
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:09,880
Speaker 1: he like, I I'm not even really sure what she

654
00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:13,920
Speaker 1: was trying to what she was trying to get at. Basically,

655
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 1: she accused him of disregarding her because she was dressed

656
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:23,520
Speaker 1: in a suit, because she's not a size too, because

657
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:27,440
Speaker 1: for whatever other reason, because he sat there at the

658
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:30,239
Speaker 1: table and looked at his phone and didn't engage with her.

659
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 1: And really, when you step back, what she's saying is that, oh,

660
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 1: somebody just like sat at a table on their phone

661
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:43,919
Speaker 1: and didn't engage with me, Therefore they must be a misogynist.

662
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:50,480
Speaker 1: Like she was really projecting a lot of malintent on

663
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:52,520
Speaker 1: someone who was just like minding his business at a table,

664
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:55,520
Speaker 1: like doing nothing. And it just was really really really

665
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:57,320
Speaker 1: really strange. Like that's the only thing I can think of.

666
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 1: It's like part of me kind of felt for her

667
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:05,880
Speaker 1: in that moment, because I'm someone who can kind of

668
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,000
Speaker 1: get in my own head and be like, oh, everyone

669
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:10,359
Speaker 1: is annoyed at me because they're being quiet, and really

670
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:12,400
Speaker 1: they're just being quiet. I know what. I know what

671
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:18,760
Speaker 1: it's like to jump to unsupported conclusions about the behavior

672
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 1: of someone else. But really it was in your own head.

673
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:24,480
Speaker 1: I that is my I've like guilty has charged. I

674
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:26,680
Speaker 1: do that all the time, so part of me understands it.

675
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:30,279
Speaker 1: But to say it publicly about someone who just was

676
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:33,839
Speaker 1: just doing nothing, it's just so it's almost unfathomed. It's

677
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 1: almost unfathomable to me. Yeah, I mean, hearing this from you,

678
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:44,480
Speaker 1: it sounds it sounds like and just a normal thing happened,

679
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:46,719
Speaker 1: that you're sitting at a table and someone's doing their

680
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:54,000
Speaker 1: own thing. And then to post about it, I have

681
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:59,279
Speaker 1: assuming she said something like on social Uh, yeah, that's

682
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 1: very indeed. Yeah, so she apologized. She said I would

683
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 1: never intentionally contribute to a long and often violent history

684
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:12,319
Speaker 1: of the over sexualization of blackmail bodies, as well as

685
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:17,759
Speaker 1: false accusations by white women towards black men. Um. Yeah,

686
00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:20,920
Speaker 1: So honestly, this is like one of those things. I

687
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:22,319
Speaker 1: don't even know what to make of it because it's

688
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 1: so strange. I guess she and she doesn't know. I mean,

689
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 1: maybe Odell Beckham was is awkward or like an introvert

690
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 1: and just like wanted to be on his phone to

691
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:37,280
Speaker 1: put this weird, Like, it's just such a weird projection

692
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 1: to be that, oh, because he wasn't oggling me, he's

693
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:42,440
Speaker 1: a misogynist. It's just is there's so many layers to

694
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 1: how strange it was. Really, Like that's all I can say, Like,

695
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:46,360
Speaker 1: there's just so many layers to how weird of a

696
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:49,720
Speaker 1: thing this was. Yeah, and if he had been aggling

697
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,840
Speaker 1: her then it would have been bad as well. I

698
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:55,719
Speaker 1: really think, in my heart of hearts, most of the time,

699
00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 1: people are not thinking about you at all, and so

700
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:02,839
Speaker 1: they're they're they're worried that you were thinking about them.

701
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 1: You're worried that they're thinking about you, But you're really

702
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:07,719
Speaker 1: just all thinking about ourselves. That that's what I think.

703
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:10,920
Speaker 1: I agree. Yeah, there are times where I leave my

704
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 1: house and I'm thinking like, oh, I haven't showered my

705
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:14,920
Speaker 1: hair's a mess, like I look a mess. And then

706
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 1: when I get outside, I remember, Oh, everybody, we're all

707
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:20,440
Speaker 1: vain narcissists. We're all just worried about ourselves. Nobody, nobody

708
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:26,960
Speaker 1: is looking at me. Nobody cares pretty much. That is uh,

709
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:30,800
Speaker 1: that is a good piece of advice to navigate with

710
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:36,680
Speaker 1: through this world. So another weird thing that happened was

711
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:38,680
Speaker 1: so I know you haven't about her book, but in

712
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 1: her book there's this passage that was really really controversial.

713
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:48,680
Speaker 1: Um in her book she describes in a passage and

714
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:52,759
Speaker 1: experience with her sibling Grace. She writes, one day, as

715
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:54,800
Speaker 1: I sat in our driveway in Long Island, playing with

716
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:57,360
Speaker 1: blocks and buckets, like curiosity got the better of me.

717
00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:00,479
Speaker 1: Grace was sitting up, babbling and smiling, and I leaned

718
00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:03,000
Speaker 1: down between her legs and carefully spread open her china.

719
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:05,720
Speaker 1: She didn't resist, and when I saw what was inside,

720
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:09,480
Speaker 1: I shrieked. My mother came running, Mama, Mama, Grace has

721
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:12,440
Speaker 1: something in there. My mother didn't bother asking me why

722
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:15,440
Speaker 1: had opened Grace's vagina. This was within the spectrum of

723
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:17,520
Speaker 1: things that I did. She just got on her knees

724
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:19,840
Speaker 1: and looked for herself. It quickly became a parent that

725
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:22,600
Speaker 1: Grace had stuffed six or seven pebbles in there. My

726
00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:25,880
Speaker 1: mother removed them patiently, while Grace cackled throwed that her

727
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 1: first prank had been a success. Now that passage, to

728
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:31,160
Speaker 1: me reads this a bit strange, but I also can

729
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:34,280
Speaker 1: read it as you know, kids exploring each other's bodies

730
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:38,920
Speaker 1: like this happened when Lena Dunham was seven, but it

731
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:43,359
Speaker 1: got picked up by this this right wing outlet who

732
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:48,120
Speaker 1: did kind of tweak the passage, so they misreported her

733
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:51,960
Speaker 1: age when this happened as being seventeen and not seven.

734
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 1: And so again, even though I'm whether or not you

735
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 1: see this this this criticism of this passage as fair

736
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:02,800
Speaker 1: or not, it does need to be told that, like

737
00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:07,040
Speaker 1: a right wing outlet truth revolt, they aggregated this this

738
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:10,200
Speaker 1: content to make her look worse, and they're not just

739
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:16,320
Speaker 1: you know, neutral parties. Here. The columnist who who aggregated this,

740
00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:20,000
Speaker 1: Kevin D. Williamson, you might remember him as floating the

741
00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:23,360
Speaker 1: idea that women who get abortion should be executed for

742
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:26,640
Speaker 1: saying that transactress Levering Cox is quote not a woman,

743
00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:30,520
Speaker 1: He's not a just a concerned party lifting this to

744
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:34,040
Speaker 1: the masses. He certainly would be doing so with an agenda.

745
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:36,640
Speaker 1: And so whether or not you believe that that passage

746
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 1: is does describe Lena Dunham molesting her sibling, it's like,

747
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:45,800
Speaker 1: just in terms of the logistics of what happened, it

748
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:52,040
Speaker 1: did originate with this kind of shitty right wing blogger. Yeah,

749
00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:55,799
Speaker 1: that was news to me when um, you you were

750
00:42:55,880 --> 00:43:00,080
Speaker 1: sharing this research because I have again I've seen on

751
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:03,279
Speaker 1: Twitter sort of these list of like why the hate

752
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:07,600
Speaker 1: Lenda Dunham and on there is always she Actually I

753
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 1: think I usually see she molested her cousin anyway somebody

754
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:15,320
Speaker 1: related to her. Um, and uh, I didn't know that

755
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 1: a right wing outlet, it was kind of behind at

756
00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 1: least um getting it a lot of really negative attention. Yeah,

757
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:27,800
Speaker 1: and I think there are people who I respect and

758
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:30,840
Speaker 1: trust who believe that this isn't this is an encounter

759
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:34,560
Speaker 1: that describes child molestation. I'm not I'm not saying one

760
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:36,319
Speaker 1: way or another whether it is or not. I'm saying,

761
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:39,280
Speaker 1: you know, if that is a claim that you hold,

762
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:42,880
Speaker 1: you should know where it originated. And so you know,

763
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 1: I think that also, I think, uh, Lena's sibling has

764
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:49,560
Speaker 1: been very clear that they do not feel that they

765
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:51,880
Speaker 1: were molested, and so I think that's part of it too,

766
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:54,520
Speaker 1: and sort of you know, understanding. I don't know, I

767
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:56,920
Speaker 1: just think that we're talking about something like child molestation.

768
00:43:57,719 --> 00:43:59,879
Speaker 1: It's just so important to do it in a way.

769
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:03,840
Speaker 1: It's nuances. That's such a sensitive, heavy topic, you know. Yeah,

770
00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:08,759
Speaker 1: So all of these things, I remember when they were

771
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:11,759
Speaker 1: coming out, I was still I hate to even say this,

772
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:14,360
Speaker 1: all are gonna hate me. I was still sort of thinking,

773
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:16,360
Speaker 1: you know, I still like her. I don't know, like

774
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:19,160
Speaker 1: she's a she's a cool artist. I was really able

775
00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:23,759
Speaker 1: to somehow still watch Girls, still be interested in what

776
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:25,960
Speaker 1: she had to, stay still read her writing all of that.

777
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:27,959
Speaker 1: I was still very interested in what she was doing.

778
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:33,719
Speaker 1: But if you saw the news this past week, she's

779
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:36,080
Speaker 1: I think that we've I've crossed over into territory where

780
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:39,400
Speaker 1: I don't think I can ride with her as an

781
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:44,920
Speaker 1: artist because her behavior has become so indefensible. And that

782
00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 1: is that when one of the writers on Girls, Murray Miller,

783
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:55,279
Speaker 1: was accused of sexual saul by actress Aurora Parano in Lena,

784
00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:59,800
Speaker 1: really had the worst response that I could ever even imagine.

785
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:02,600
Speaker 1: And that is really saying something, and so we're gonna

786
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:15,080
Speaker 1: get into that after a quick break and we're back,

787
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:19,160
Speaker 1: Thank you, sponsor. So here's what went down with these allegations.

788
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:23,520
Speaker 1: This actress felt sexual assault charges against former Girls writer

789
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:26,080
Speaker 1: Murray Miller, saying that he raped her in and she

790
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:30,359
Speaker 1: was seventeen. In response, Lena and her co showrunner Jenny

791
00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:35,280
Speaker 1: Cohner sent a statement to The Hollywood Reporter basically saying

792
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 1: that they knew they had insider information that this didn't happen.

793
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:42,320
Speaker 1: Here's what they wrote. During the windfall of deeply necessary

794
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:45,160
Speaker 1: accusations over the last month in Hollywood, we have been

795
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:47,600
Speaker 1: thrilled to see so many women's voices heard and dark

796
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 1: experiences in this industry justified. It's a hugely important time

797
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:54,799
Speaker 1: of change, and like every feminist in Hollywood and beyond,

798
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:58,799
Speaker 1: we celebrate. But during every time of change, there are

799
00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:02,760
Speaker 1: also incidences in culture in this enthusiasm and zeal taking

800
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:05,800
Speaker 1: down the wrong targets. We believed, having worked closely with

801
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:07,920
Speaker 1: him for more than half a decade, that this is

802
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:11,800
Speaker 1: the case with Murray Miller. While our instinct is to

803
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:14,680
Speaker 1: listen to every woman's stories, are insider knowledge of Murray's

804
00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:18,680
Speaker 1: situation makes US confident that sadly, this accusation is one

805
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:21,360
Speaker 1: of the three percent of assault cases that are misreported

806
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:23,719
Speaker 1: every year. It is a true shame to add to

807
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:26,680
Speaker 1: that number, as outside of Hollywood women still struggle to

808
00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 1: be believed. We stand by Murray and this is all

809
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:34,120
Speaker 1: you'll be saying on the issue. That is so up.

810
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:37,879
Speaker 1: I remember when I read that, thinking, oh, she will

811
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:41,240
Speaker 1: never come back from this, Like that is just beyond

812
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:43,280
Speaker 1: And I think I've said it on the show before.

813
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:46,960
Speaker 1: If someone that if someone that I knew was accused

814
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:50,200
Speaker 1: of sexual assault, I mean, I'm not with them, seven

815
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 1: I don't I don't spend every waking moment with them.

816
00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:57,319
Speaker 1: If someone that I really really liked was facing those allegations,

817
00:46:58,120 --> 00:46:59,719
Speaker 1: I would be like, yeah, I don't know, will Bean

818
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:03,719
Speaker 1: just it's just so wild to me to say we know,

819
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:07,840
Speaker 1: without a without a shadow of a doubt, that this

820
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:12,400
Speaker 1: woman is making it up, Yeah, that we have insider information,

821
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:19,160
Speaker 1: which I'm not even sure what that would be. Um. Yeah,

822
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:25,520
Speaker 1: I I remember when this happened, and it was disappointing

823
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:31,160
Speaker 1: to see someone who in theory is a feminist and

824
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:37,240
Speaker 1: stands for women and is um a champion for women.

825
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:41,719
Speaker 1: I like even in theory, even kind of like tangentially, Um,

826
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:49,080
Speaker 1: just dismiss the accusation of of a woman, um and say, well,

827
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:52,319
Speaker 1: I like this guy. I know he wouldn't do it. Um.

828
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:56,279
Speaker 1: It was disheartening. Yeah, that's basically what she said. She

829
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:58,600
Speaker 1: later tweeted, I believe in a lot of things, but

830
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:00,880
Speaker 1: the first head of my politics is to hold up

831
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:02,759
Speaker 1: the people who have held me up, who have filled

832
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:07,880
Speaker 1: my world with love. Far I mean, honestly, I always

833
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:10,279
Speaker 1: go back to Robin Right from House of Cards, who

834
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:14,200
Speaker 1: I think gave us the definitive way to respond when

835
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:18,440
Speaker 1: a co worker is accused of sexual as solid or misconduct.

836
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:20,560
Speaker 1: She's basically just like, I don't know him like that.

837
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:22,239
Speaker 1: I don't even she she said, I don't have his

838
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:25,800
Speaker 1: phone number. We are co workers, were we're not friends.

839
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:28,160
Speaker 1: I have no information. I don't know. You know, you

840
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:30,160
Speaker 1: can just you can just say that you don't have

841
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:35,000
Speaker 1: to die on this hill of supporting someone that you

842
00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:37,479
Speaker 1: you've even if you work closely together, even if you're friends,

843
00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:41,120
Speaker 1: you don't have to do that. No, no, And I

844
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:47,840
Speaker 1: definitely think doing like this public statement, I don't that

845
00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:52,120
Speaker 1: doesn't seem like necessary at all. And you don't have

846
00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:56,479
Speaker 1: all of the facts, and to publish this thing that's

847
00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:04,000
Speaker 1: basically discrediting this woman, it just seems totally unnecessary and

848
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:09,840
Speaker 1: like misguided. So this month, Lena, while speaking at a

849
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:13,799
Speaker 1: women and entertainment event Um this month, she brought Parano's

850
00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:18,440
Speaker 1: mother on stage to deliver an actual apology for her

851
00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:23,440
Speaker 1: role in these allegations. It just was really awkward. I mean,

852
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:28,560
Speaker 1: I the whole the whole thing was just awkward. It

853
00:49:28,719 --> 00:49:32,600
Speaker 1: was awkward to have her mom on stage. Honestly, it

854
00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:37,160
Speaker 1: felt awkward to me to do this at a big

855
00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:39,680
Speaker 1: public event. I don't know, I just I felt really

856
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:46,040
Speaker 1: really strange about the entire thing. Yeah, I strange is

857
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:49,160
Speaker 1: a good word for it. It this sort of public display,

858
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:53,640
Speaker 1: it doesn't feel like the right time or space, or

859
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:59,960
Speaker 1: like it wasn't handled very well exactly. She also apologi

860
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:02,960
Speaker 1: eyes in a written piece in The Hollywood Reporter. She wrote,

861
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:06,359
Speaker 1: I made a terrible mistake. When someone I knew, someone

862
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:08,960
Speaker 1: I had loved as a brother, was accused, I did

863
00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:12,799
Speaker 1: something inexcusable. I publicly spoke up in his defense. There

864
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:14,520
Speaker 1: are a few acts I could ever regret more in

865
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:18,560
Speaker 1: this life. I didn't have the quote insider information, I claimed,

866
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:21,800
Speaker 1: but rather blind faith and a story that kept slipping

867
00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:24,160
Speaker 1: and changing and revealed itself to me nothing at all.

868
00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:28,080
Speaker 1: I wanted to feel my workplace and my world we're safe,

869
00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:31,520
Speaker 1: untouched by the outside world, a privilege in and of itself,

870
00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:34,759
Speaker 1: the privilege of ignoring what hasn't hurt you. And I

871
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:38,200
Speaker 1: claimed that safety at cost to someone else, someone very special.

872
00:50:39,080 --> 00:50:42,480
Speaker 1: So I think her apology is worth reading and its entirety.

873
00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:46,400
Speaker 1: But the thing that I cannot get over is that

874
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:52,640
Speaker 1: she is admitting that she lied to make a sexual

875
00:50:52,680 --> 00:50:57,799
Speaker 1: assault victims story less believable. Like that is I hurt

876
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:02,439
Speaker 1: her apology. I think it's interesting and like worth a read,

877
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:06,560
Speaker 1: but that is the only nugget, Like, like, when people

878
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:09,000
Speaker 1: were reporting about this story, the way that they should

879
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:11,000
Speaker 1: be framed is that she's admitting that she lied to

880
00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:16,480
Speaker 1: smear a sexual assault victim. Like that is just I

881
00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:19,880
Speaker 1: can't I almost can't even wrap my head around it.

882
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:24,000
Speaker 1: It's such a despicable thing to do. Yeah, when you

883
00:51:24,080 --> 00:51:28,200
Speaker 1: put it in in those terms, which is what it is,

884
00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:37,279
Speaker 1: it is awful, an awful thing to do. It's yeah,

885
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:41,799
Speaker 1: And I think again the fact that she so if

886
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:46,160
Speaker 1: she had just said, I believe Murray. I believe Murray,

887
00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:48,960
Speaker 1: and we're Bud's and that's all I'm gonna say on

888
00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:51,719
Speaker 1: the subject. I wouldn't have been happy about that, but

889
00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:53,719
Speaker 1: that would have been a thing that people do right

890
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:55,200
Speaker 1: like that would not that would not have been the

891
00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:56,800
Speaker 1: way that I would want her to handle it, But

892
00:51:56,880 --> 00:52:01,000
Speaker 1: I would have understood that to lie on his behalf,

893
00:52:02,480 --> 00:52:05,640
Speaker 1: I think, is like what she didn't have to do.

894
00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:07,880
Speaker 1: I don't understand why she did that. I don't understand

895
00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:10,880
Speaker 1: why she pretended but there was exonerating information that they

896
00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:13,520
Speaker 1: were privy to that we didn't know about um that

897
00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:17,440
Speaker 1: got him off the hook. I don't understand why she

898
00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:21,799
Speaker 1: felt the need to do that, other than I mean

899
00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:23,960
Speaker 1: she's she sort of goes into it more in her

900
00:52:24,040 --> 00:52:28,640
Speaker 1: piece that that she sort of had internalized this idea

901
00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:31,840
Speaker 1: as a as a victim of sexual assault and rape herself,

902
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:35,880
Speaker 1: she had sort of internalized this idea that she needed

903
00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:38,680
Speaker 1: to believe that her the community of people that she

904
00:52:38,760 --> 00:52:42,000
Speaker 1: had put that she had put around her was safe,

905
00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:47,160
Speaker 1: and so this lie was actually a tool for her

906
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:50,320
Speaker 1: to believe that she had built a safe space for

907
00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:54,640
Speaker 1: herself in her community. And if she took that lie away.

908
00:52:55,120 --> 00:52:57,560
Speaker 1: Then the entire house of cards comes falling down and

909
00:52:57,640 --> 00:53:01,360
Speaker 1: she realizes, Oh, I have not built a safe community,

910
00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:04,640
Speaker 1: the one that you know, I wanted to build as

911
00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:09,440
Speaker 1: a survivor of sexual assaults and rape. And again I

912
00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:13,480
Speaker 1: can understand that, but what the it's just so, it's

913
00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:16,480
Speaker 1: just so horrible. You know, I am a survivor of

914
00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:23,360
Speaker 1: sexual sexualized violence. I cannot imagine lying for a sexual

915
00:53:23,440 --> 00:53:29,080
Speaker 1: abuser because of my trauma and past pain. Like that's

916
00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:31,280
Speaker 1: just so And yeah, I guess it is the ultimate

917
00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:34,840
Speaker 1: privilege of throwing someone who who I might add as

918
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:37,520
Speaker 1: a black woman. The woman who is making these allegations

919
00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:40,520
Speaker 1: is a is a black woman. I guess that is

920
00:53:40,560 --> 00:53:44,680
Speaker 1: the ultimate privilege of saying, you know, my comfort, my

921
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:48,000
Speaker 1: ability to feel safe, trump's anything that anyone else might

922
00:53:48,040 --> 00:53:50,000
Speaker 1: be going through and that needs to be protected at

923
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:56,560
Speaker 1: all costs, right, And that this person, the person who

924
00:53:56,680 --> 00:53:59,160
Speaker 1: was accused, is a friend of mine and I care

925
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:02,400
Speaker 1: about this person and the other person I don't know

926
00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:06,200
Speaker 1: or I don't care about, and so I'm going to

927
00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:10,440
Speaker 1: protect people in my circle instead of doing the thing

928
00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:15,000
Speaker 1: that is that is right. And I mean the values

929
00:54:15,120 --> 00:54:18,000
Speaker 1: that you would purport to have that it seems that

930
00:54:18,080 --> 00:54:21,320
Speaker 1: she purported to have right. And this is what I

931
00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:25,480
Speaker 1: always come back to. None of us are perfect feminists.

932
00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:29,759
Speaker 1: I'm certainly not never claimed to be so. We all,

933
00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:34,600
Speaker 1: you know, we all need to be generous with each

934
00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:38,879
Speaker 1: other because we're all learning and growing together. But where

935
00:54:38,920 --> 00:54:41,719
Speaker 1: do you draw the line? How many times do you

936
00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:45,719
Speaker 1: need to be shown someone's behavior over and over and

937
00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:49,160
Speaker 1: over again until you say, this is not a person

938
00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:51,320
Speaker 1: I can rack with. This is not someone who is

939
00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:53,080
Speaker 1: down for me. And if they're not down for me,

940
00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:54,839
Speaker 1: I can't be down for them. You know, I don't

941
00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:57,200
Speaker 1: have theer. That's a question I'm asking now because it

942
00:54:57,280 --> 00:54:59,759
Speaker 1: feels like for me, this is it. You know, I

943
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:05,080
Speaker 1: just can't even imagine what it must have feel like

944
00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:11,320
Speaker 1: for this, this young woman Aurora two see these well connected,

945
00:55:12,200 --> 00:55:17,800
Speaker 1: you know, white women just circle the wagons around her abuser,

946
00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:20,160
Speaker 1: like I can't even imagine what that must have felt

947
00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:25,000
Speaker 1: like for her. And yeah, I mean, really, this is

948
00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:28,200
Speaker 1: this is revealing that I, you know, that my problematic

949
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:31,640
Speaker 1: davis myself. You know, I wanted to believe that Lena

950
00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:34,319
Speaker 1: Donna was better than this, and I wonder, like, am

951
00:55:34,360 --> 00:55:38,839
Speaker 1: I giving her more leeway because like like why am

952
00:55:38,920 --> 00:55:43,120
Speaker 1: I willing? Why was I willing to give her that

953
00:55:43,320 --> 00:55:46,480
Speaker 1: space to grow and shape? Like? Who who gets who

954
00:55:46,600 --> 00:55:51,360
Speaker 1: gets endless chances in life? Who was afforded endless endless

955
00:55:51,440 --> 00:55:54,319
Speaker 1: chances to get it right, endless chances to learn and grow?

956
00:55:54,520 --> 00:55:56,320
Speaker 1: And who just doesn't have that open to them? Like

957
00:55:56,360 --> 00:55:59,959
Speaker 1: these are the questions that my feelings around Lena Donna

958
00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:05,239
Speaker 1: have really sort of sparked. Those are those are deep

959
00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:08,440
Speaker 1: questions and I don't think there are any easy answers

960
00:56:08,560 --> 00:56:13,000
Speaker 1: and it involves a lot of um introspection. I think

961
00:56:13,040 --> 00:56:18,160
Speaker 1: that a lot of us are doing UM and it's

962
00:56:18,440 --> 00:56:22,680
Speaker 1: it's it sucks, it sucks. But yeah, there aren't any

963
00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:29,560
Speaker 1: there's no endless chances in life. Yeah, this is this

964
00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:35,640
Speaker 1: is feeling. This feels so messy and unresolved. Yeah, yeah

965
00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:38,080
Speaker 1: it does. It is That is the way of a

966
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:40,520
Speaker 1: lot of things in life. UM. And I think we

967
00:56:40,640 --> 00:56:44,120
Speaker 1: try to tie tie things up neatly with the bow

968
00:56:44,280 --> 00:56:48,759
Speaker 1: and then it feels like I can say that I

969
00:56:48,840 --> 00:56:50,759
Speaker 1: can feel this way about myself and I can feel

970
00:56:50,760 --> 00:56:52,920
Speaker 1: good about myself and the choices that I've made. Um,

971
00:56:53,840 --> 00:56:59,240
Speaker 1: but life isn't that way. And two, to take away

972
00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:02,279
Speaker 1: that new month think does a disservice, even if it

973
00:57:03,280 --> 00:57:08,719
Speaker 1: is so much nicer, so much nicer, I would love

974
00:57:08,760 --> 00:57:10,359
Speaker 1: to have things wrapped up in a in a bow

975
00:57:10,480 --> 00:57:14,600
Speaker 1: and say, you know, but I also I mean, I

976
00:57:14,880 --> 00:57:17,720
Speaker 1: almost hate this expression, but cancel culture like this idea

977
00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:20,120
Speaker 1: that we cancel people like that person is canceled. I

978
00:57:20,280 --> 00:57:24,400
Speaker 1: hate that because I don't think that does us any good. Right,

979
00:57:24,440 --> 00:57:26,520
Speaker 1: I don't want to. I don't want to. If I

980
00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:30,080
Speaker 1: screwed up in public, which I'm I certainly have done,

981
00:57:30,120 --> 00:57:32,760
Speaker 1: I certainly will do more of. I don't want people

982
00:57:32,800 --> 00:57:35,640
Speaker 1: to throw me away and cancel me. You know, I

983
00:57:35,680 --> 00:57:38,520
Speaker 1: think I've got something valuable to say. If someone who

984
00:57:38,880 --> 00:57:41,880
Speaker 1: is a creative talent is valuable or can you know,

985
00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:46,200
Speaker 1: make something meaningful messes up. I don't think that we

986
00:57:46,240 --> 00:57:49,640
Speaker 1: should be saying, you know, to a to a point

987
00:57:49,720 --> 00:57:52,560
Speaker 1: like let's not it, that's not pocket. But you know,

988
00:57:53,560 --> 00:57:56,200
Speaker 1: I'm not a fan of a culture that is so

989
00:57:56,360 --> 00:57:58,840
Speaker 1: unforgiving that says that we need to throw people away

990
00:57:59,000 --> 00:58:02,840
Speaker 1: when they disappoint up us. But how many chances do

991
00:58:03,000 --> 00:58:05,240
Speaker 1: people need? I mean, there's that great there's that great

992
00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:07,320
Speaker 1: my angels of quote that I always come back to

993
00:58:07,960 --> 00:58:11,960
Speaker 1: when people show you who they are, believe them, and

994
00:58:13,360 --> 00:58:16,720
Speaker 1: you know there's wisdom in that. There's wisdom and saying, yeah,

995
00:58:16,840 --> 00:58:19,560
Speaker 1: this person has shown herself to be someone who does

996
00:58:19,640 --> 00:58:22,760
Speaker 1: not get it and we'll maybe never get it, and

997
00:58:22,880 --> 00:58:28,560
Speaker 1: what do we do with that? I wish I knew,

998
00:58:28,600 --> 00:58:33,120
Speaker 1: Bridget I wish I knew. So in conclusion, it sounds

999
00:58:33,160 --> 00:58:35,520
Speaker 1: like this is a problematic faive that is no longer

1000
00:58:36,040 --> 00:58:40,280
Speaker 1: a fave for you. She's I mean, I wouldn't. It's

1001
00:58:40,280 --> 00:58:42,440
Speaker 1: so it Also it's awkward because I've met her, and

1002
00:58:42,520 --> 00:58:44,760
Speaker 1: so I when I was putting together this dock, I

1003
00:58:44,880 --> 00:58:47,800
Speaker 1: was thinking everything that I said in this podcast, if

1004
00:58:47,840 --> 00:58:50,160
Speaker 1: given the chance, I would say to her over coffee

1005
00:58:50,240 --> 00:58:53,080
Speaker 1: to her face. Again, not that we're friends, but I

1006
00:58:53,120 --> 00:58:55,360
Speaker 1: don't feel like I'm saying anything out of pocket. This

1007
00:58:55,520 --> 00:58:58,920
Speaker 1: is just how I feel, and so I can find

1008
00:58:58,960 --> 00:59:02,600
Speaker 1: some wisdom in this. It's important to know when to

1009
00:59:02,720 --> 00:59:07,680
Speaker 1: let things go. And as I'm leaving Sminty, I think

1010
00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:13,280
Speaker 1: it's shown me that there is power and grace in

1011
00:59:13,440 --> 00:59:17,080
Speaker 1: knowing when you've outgrown something and you need to let

1012
00:59:17,120 --> 00:59:21,920
Speaker 1: it go. And I think perhaps for right now, my

1013
00:59:22,080 --> 00:59:24,600
Speaker 1: favoritism with Lena Dunham her being a bit of a

1014
00:59:24,640 --> 00:59:26,920
Speaker 1: faith of mine. It might be time to let it go.

1015
00:59:29,080 --> 00:59:35,440
Speaker 1: You're so wise, Bridget I mean, I here let it go,

1016
00:59:35,520 --> 00:59:38,200
Speaker 1: and I go right to Disney songs because I'm so immature.

1017
00:59:38,520 --> 00:59:44,919
Speaker 1: But you're You're spouting words of wisdom. You know, maybe

1018
00:59:44,960 --> 00:59:49,040
Speaker 1: I'll get there one day. Frosen is okay too. If

1019
00:59:49,040 --> 00:59:51,400
Speaker 1: that's if that's what you got on you, that's allowed.

1020
00:59:52,280 --> 00:59:55,400
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you. Everyone's cursing my name for like

1021
00:59:55,560 --> 00:59:58,960
Speaker 1: even bringing up the ghost of that song. I know

1022
00:59:59,120 --> 01:00:01,520
Speaker 1: somebody's out there listening with their kid in the car.

1023
01:00:02,240 --> 01:00:04,720
Speaker 1: Kid's gonna be sticking. Let it go. I guarantee you.

1024
01:00:06,360 --> 01:00:11,680
Speaker 1: Apologies on my behalf. I know I one time had

1025
01:00:11,840 --> 01:00:14,120
Speaker 1: a child staying in a hotel room next to me

1026
01:00:14,200 --> 01:00:16,080
Speaker 1: and was just belting that song over and over and

1027
01:00:16,160 --> 01:00:23,200
Speaker 1: over again. So I understand, and I'm very sorry. But

1028
01:00:23,320 --> 01:00:27,480
Speaker 1: I think um as unresolved and messy as this is

1029
01:00:28,240 --> 01:00:30,360
Speaker 1: it about brings us to the end of this episode.

1030
01:00:32,320 --> 01:00:34,720
Speaker 1: It does, it does. It feels cathartic. I've been wanting

1031
01:00:34,760 --> 01:00:37,560
Speaker 1: to talk about Lena Dunam on the show forever, and

1032
01:00:37,680 --> 01:00:39,640
Speaker 1: it feels it feels like a weight has been lifted. Huh.

1033
01:00:40,840 --> 01:00:44,280
Speaker 1: I'm glad. I when you sent the topic suggestion, I

1034
01:00:44,440 --> 01:00:49,160
Speaker 1: was like, interesting, this is gonna be interesting one. But

1035
01:00:49,240 --> 01:00:51,120
Speaker 1: I'm glad we tackled it. I'm glad that you got

1036
01:00:51,200 --> 01:00:55,040
Speaker 1: to sort of explore and have this space to grapple

1037
01:00:55,120 --> 01:01:00,640
Speaker 1: with your feelings about Lena Dunham. That's right. Yes, So

1038
01:01:02,160 --> 01:01:04,520
Speaker 1: if you would like to find stuff I've Never told

1039
01:01:04,560 --> 01:01:07,520
Speaker 1: you on social media, you can um you can find

1040
01:01:07,600 --> 01:01:10,000
Speaker 1: us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcasts and on Instagram

1041
01:01:10,120 --> 01:01:11,960
Speaker 1: at Stuff I Never told You. You can also email

1042
01:01:12,040 --> 01:01:13,960
Speaker 1: us at mom Stuff at a staff works dot com.

1043
01:01:14,360 --> 01:01:16,000
Speaker 1: And if you want to find Bridget, where can they

1044
01:01:16,040 --> 01:01:18,000
Speaker 1: do that? Bridget? You want to keep up with all

1045
01:01:18,040 --> 01:01:19,680
Speaker 1: the things that I got going on in the last

1046
01:01:19,880 --> 01:01:22,280
Speaker 1: my last few episodes of the show, you can find

1047
01:01:22,320 --> 01:01:25,480
Speaker 1: my social media. I am on Instagram at Bridget Marie

1048
01:01:25,800 --> 01:01:28,920
Speaker 1: in d C. That's DC like the City, and I'm

1049
01:01:28,960 --> 01:01:33,760
Speaker 1: on Twitter at Bridget Marie. Thanks as always to our

1050
01:01:33,880 --> 01:01:37,240
Speaker 1: producer Trevor Young, and thanks to you for listening.