1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. You are never going to 2 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:10,200 Speaker 1: believe this. 3 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 2: Remember it's to been just a few months ago that 4 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:17,479 Speaker 2: Susan Smith, yes, the mom from hell that murdered her 5 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:20,760 Speaker 2: two little boys by buckling them into a car and 6 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:25,079 Speaker 2: pushing them into a lake and watching them drown. We 7 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 2: just got through her parole board hearing, didn't we Or 8 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:30,640 Speaker 2: is that all just a bad dream? 9 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:34,960 Speaker 1: Well guess what, it ain't over yet. I'm Nancy Grace. 10 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:38,239 Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. 11 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 2: We heard reports that after killer Mom Susan Smith was 12 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 2: denied parole, she went back and threw a hissy fit 13 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:46,920 Speaker 2: in her jail cell. 14 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 1: And now we know why. 15 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 2: Killer Mom Susan Smith wanted to go on Dancing with 16 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 2: the Stars when she got parole, and she is quote 17 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 2: devastated it didn't work out. I can't believe this, forget 18 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:07,760 Speaker 2: about her two dead children that she murdered. Susan Smith, 19 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 2: who's serving a life sentence into South Carolina jail for 20 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 2: the murder of her two little boys, is angry she 21 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:21,200 Speaker 2: couldn't be on Dancing with the Stars. Okay, Can we 22 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 2: just have a quick review of the evidence that proved 23 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 2: beyond a doubt. Susan Smith murdered her young boys and 24 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 2: in a horrible fashion. 25 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 1: Yes, layo love and he's a lady. 26 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 3: You come on at door and some guy that jumping 27 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:39,959 Speaker 3: into a red light with her car with her two 28 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 3: kids in it, and he took off and. 29 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:43,399 Speaker 4: She got out of call here at Ohio. 30 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 1: Yes, lay let her call it. 31 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 3: I don't see your I need to go along. 32 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 5: Get down here and a car, but we need. 33 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 6: A body day what color was it? 34 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 1: A burgand protege? We don't get him going? 35 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 3: Pay him? 36 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 7: I got two key. 37 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 1: I love that degree of detail. 38 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:09,959 Speaker 2: You know, I don't even know where to go first 39 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:12,679 Speaker 2: because I've got such awesome experts, But I'm going to 40 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:14,880 Speaker 2: go first with Chris mcdonna. He is the director of 41 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 2: Cold Case Foundation. Okay, don't care. Former homicide detective starting 42 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:23,520 Speaker 2: to care, getting warm, getting warm, getting hotter. He has 43 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 2: his own YouTube channel, the Interview Room where I found him. 44 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 2: You can find him at Colcase Foundation dot org or 45 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 2: on the Interview Room. 46 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 1: Former homicide detective. 47 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:41,639 Speaker 2: Three hundred ish homicide scenes under his belt. Chris mcdonna, 48 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 2: don't you love the degree of detail? 49 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:45,640 Speaker 1: Hey? You know what? 50 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:48,919 Speaker 2: Send me? Sometimes you got to hear the best stuff. 51 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 2: Can you play that one more time? 52 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:50,640 Speaker 1: Listen? 53 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 3: Love that is a lady. 54 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:57,359 Speaker 5: And some guy get him into a red light with 55 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 5: her car with her two kids in it, golf. If 56 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:04,080 Speaker 5: you got out of call here at Ohio and I 57 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:05,679 Speaker 5: let her call it, I don't will see you. 58 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 3: I need to go along, get. 59 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 5: Down here an carry. But we need to add we 60 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 5: kind of up. 61 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 3: A maga protegee. 62 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 2: What color was it? 63 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:20,359 Speaker 6: A burgundy maga protege. 64 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 5: We don't get him going pay him? 65 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 2: I got I'll call all the detail Chris McDonough. She's 66 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 2: quote real hysterical and you need to call along and 67 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 2: get him down here right now. And you hear her 68 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 2: feeding details in the background, Nancy. 69 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 6: Wasn't that the narrative that captivated America? 70 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 1: How can you be so calm? 71 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 6: You know, we just get used to it. Unfortunately, right it's. 72 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 2: Somebody still get very angry, very angry. And I know 73 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 2: the end of this story. But the detail have you 74 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 2: ever seen purpose? And they will spin you yarn with 75 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 2: such incredibly rich detail. 76 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 6: Yeah, and typically that detail, if it's that minute show 77 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 6: and that amount is typically a sign of deception. And 78 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:16,599 Speaker 6: she kicked it off right from. 79 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:20,280 Speaker 8: That nine one one call from the beginning, the beginning, 80 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 8: running up to somebody's house talking about some guy jumps 81 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 8: out and you know, this occurs in rural Union County, 82 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 8: South Carolina, near the John D. 83 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 1: Long Lake. 84 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:36,239 Speaker 2: And you know, hold on, Chris McDonald, where do you live, Chris? 85 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 6: Well, right now, I'm in Arizona, but I lived in 86 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 6: South Carolina right there in Mount Pleasure. 87 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 1: You're very familiar with this area. 88 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:46,799 Speaker 2: Let me go to another country boy like this country 89 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:50,599 Speaker 2: girl right here. Just got Morgan joining me, although he's 90 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:56,240 Speaker 2: gotten pretty high falutin. Professor Forswicks, Jacksonville State University, author 91 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 2: of Blood Beneath My Fate, still waiting on another book 92 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 2: to come out. A host of Bodybag's hit podcast, this area, 93 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:07,920 Speaker 2: Chris McDonough has lived in South Carolina. 94 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:10,480 Speaker 1: I've gone to this scene before. 95 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 2: It's extremely rural, and I'm supposed to believe a guy 96 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 2: jumps out of what from behind a stop sign and 97 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 2: hijacks her car and takes off with the children clearly 98 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:23,719 Speaker 2: in the back seat, two little boys. 99 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 7: Yeah, what are the odds that you're going to have 100 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 7: somebody that wants to do this kind of harm? Whether 101 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:32,280 Speaker 7: or not they had an awareness that these poor little 102 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 7: angels were buckled down in those back seats. The fact 103 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:42,280 Speaker 7: that you would have this kind of aggressive behavior in 104 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 7: that location where she was specifically targeted as an investigator, 105 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 7: I'm certainly going to raise an eyebrow and I'm going 106 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 7: to take a long look at what she has to say, because, 107 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:54,839 Speaker 7: as you and I both know, Nancy, the line share, 108 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 7: the line share of home sides we talked about, have 109 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 7: some kind of familial connect that means said, you're around 110 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 7: intimates those individuals that are most important. So you're going 111 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 7: to tell me that random stranger just came up and 112 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 7: kidnapped these babies and run off with them and left 113 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 7: her standing on the side of the road weeping. 114 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:14,679 Speaker 1: Now, did you hear what he just did? 115 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 2: Chris mcdonah, I am going along with everything he says, 116 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:19,840 Speaker 2: but he's a wily one. 117 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 1: You got to really watching watch what Joe Scott says. 118 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 2: I agree with the whole rural aspect, but did you 119 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:34,479 Speaker 2: hear him say if the unknown male assailant noticed the 120 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:38,280 Speaker 2: children in the back seat. I'm looking right now at 121 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:42,680 Speaker 2: a ninety four Mazda Protege. You can see straight into 122 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:47,040 Speaker 2: the back seat from every angle of the car. It's 123 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:50,280 Speaker 2: not like you know, you see those black SUVs with 124 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:53,600 Speaker 2: tinted windows, you can't see what's going on in there. No, 125 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:56,479 Speaker 2: you can see exactly what's going on in the back seat. 126 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:58,720 Speaker 2: And I'm looking at a shot from the distance, I 127 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:03,280 Speaker 2: can see through the back window, through the back dash, 128 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 2: and through the other. 129 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 1: Side of the car. Whoever took the car could definitely 130 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 1: see that children were strupped. 131 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 2: Into car seats in the back seat. I mean, okay, 132 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 2: you know what, Let's take a listen to the nine 133 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 2: one one call. 134 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 5: Listen union one of us one of five Gohad said 135 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 5: it was a black matl driving agh Borg and rode 136 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 5: a head affirmit that one of fine. 137 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 9: They had two jeweled with it was one I. 138 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 5: Find for one understood these were small children. These are 139 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 5: her children. And she jumped out of the car and 140 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 5: he took the car with the children and he haded 141 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 5: toy chestra one hundred heed thector both us call one 142 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 5: from when I gathered by the call, they are not 143 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 5: this is a stranger that had jumped in the lady's 144 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 5: car at a red light and she jumped out. 145 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 2: I mean, real, Tara, and I'm leading up to what 146 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 2: Susan Smith is doing right now. And let me tell 147 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 2: you that involves six different men. That said Tara Malick 148 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 2: joining me out of Boise, Idaho co owner Smith and Malik, 149 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 2: former state and federal prosecutor. 150 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:25,000 Speaker 1: Tara once again blame the black man. I remember when 151 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:25,600 Speaker 1: this happened. 152 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 2: I was trying a case and I looked over at 153 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:35,319 Speaker 2: my friend, my colleague, who went on to be a judge, 154 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:38,680 Speaker 2: I might add, and I went, Herman, have you seen 155 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:44,560 Speaker 2: the composite of the guy that Susan Smith described? And yeah, 156 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 2: I know what you're gonna say, Yeah, it looks just 157 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:54,960 Speaker 2: like you. It looked just like Herman Sloan, my trial 158 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 2: partner who had come into court to. 159 00:08:57,240 --> 00:08:59,840 Speaker 1: Bail me out of some sling. 160 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 2: I got in with the judge with some appellate law, 161 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:05,439 Speaker 2: trying to suggest that I was right and whatever I did, 162 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 2: but he went, yeah, I've heard I looked just like 163 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 2: this Susan Smith burk and he did. I mean, think 164 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 2: about it, Tara, an innocent person could have been arrested 165 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 2: and probably tried and convicted based on her fake composite. 166 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 1: And all of her lies. Like my Herman, one of 167 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 1: my best friends in the DA's office. 168 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:33,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, I mean, the crime itself was atrocious and 169 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:37,320 Speaker 4: horrific and terrible. And then and then, you know, to 170 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 4: give this false profile of someone else who may have 171 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:45,960 Speaker 4: done it, wasting resources, law enforcement resources, wasting everybody's time, 172 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 4: but also, like you said, putting somebody else potentially in jeopardy. 173 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 1: Of being picked up for it. 174 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 4: And it's just mind boggling that she would go down 175 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 4: this road. 176 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:57,680 Speaker 2: You know, I've dealt with a sod defense many times. 177 00:09:57,679 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 2: I named Doe that some other day did it. 178 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 1: D And here she goes some other dude did it 179 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 1: and listen to her. Listen. 180 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:11,559 Speaker 10: I would like to stay to whoever has my children, 181 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 10: that they please they please bring them home to us 182 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:21,560 Speaker 10: where they belong. 183 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. That's right, you heard it here. 184 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 1: Killer Mom. 185 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 2: Susan Smith angry because she can't be on Dancing with 186 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 2: the Stars. 187 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:49,320 Speaker 1: I can't even make this up. Susan Smith murdered her boys. 188 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:52,960 Speaker 2: Doctor Bethany Marshall joining him, says she's a renownce psycho 189 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:57,960 Speaker 2: analyst at Doctorbethany Marshall dot com. As a matter of fact, 190 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:01,440 Speaker 2: she now has a record role in Paris and Love 191 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:07,559 Speaker 2: season two. That said, doctor Bethany I don't get it. 192 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:14,440 Speaker 2: We've got men sexting and texting and writing and sending 193 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 2: money and love letters to Susan Smith when she is 194 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 2: a bald faced liar that kill your children in the 195 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:29,440 Speaker 2: worst way, letting her car, her Burgundy protege go. 196 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:32,280 Speaker 1: Down a ramp with the two little. 197 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 2: Boys alive, strapped in the back seat. 198 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 1: Why I don't get it. 199 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 2: Why would men want to be with this woman, send 200 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:45,200 Speaker 2: her money and sex text with her? 201 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:47,600 Speaker 1: But did you hear her? Lie? 202 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 2: Do you remember when that happened? Crying in the snotting 203 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 2: and the. 204 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:56,679 Speaker 1: All that happening. And I want to. 205 00:11:56,600 --> 00:12:01,319 Speaker 2: Say you ever has my children, they please play bring 206 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 2: them home to us where they belong, knowing full well 207 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:09,199 Speaker 2: they drowned strapped in their car seats. 208 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 9: We'll show how immature she is at the most. 209 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 1: Basic level that. 210 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 2: The most you could say she's immature. She murdered two 211 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:19,559 Speaker 2: little boys. 212 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:23,440 Speaker 9: We know she's a sociopath. But what beyond the fact 213 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:27,840 Speaker 9: that she's a sociopath, what additional factors are there that 214 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 9: would lead to this? And one is an over attachment 215 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 9: to men. She loves that feeling of falling in love, 216 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 9: the feeling you have. 217 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 2: The first section How are you linking this to double murder? 218 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 2: Why this woman did not get the death penalty? 219 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:44,160 Speaker 1: I do not know. And now there's six guys trying 220 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:46,080 Speaker 1: to have sex with her. Really ill. 221 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 9: Basically, it's really a pathological attachment to men, like being in. 222 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:54,199 Speaker 1: A barrel with with a rattlesnake. Who was that? I? 223 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 9: Well, apparently they do. And you know, women who couldn't 224 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 9: have fantasie who killed their children often have some really 225 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:06,079 Speaker 9: First of all, they're usually what we call cluster. 226 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 2: Be that or not, So I really have some sexy 227 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 2: measure going on because I'm totally cutting your mind. 228 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:15,440 Speaker 9: Okay, So their cluster bee, which means they have three 229 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:21,120 Speaker 9: different disorders sociopathy, bipolar, and borderline. Often they have a 230 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 9: very pathological attachment to men. Either they kill the children 231 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 9: to get back at the love object, like I'm going 232 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 9: to kill our children because I'm mad at you. It's 233 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 9: hard to describe this without really sounding like it's trite, 234 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:41,200 Speaker 9: but it's These are the underpinnings of what these women do. 235 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:43,599 Speaker 9: So it's either I'm going to kill the children to 236 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 9: get back at you, or I'm going to kill the children. 237 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 9: If I found a new guy and I don't want 238 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 9: the children to be in the way. 239 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 1: Interesting that you said that. 240 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:57,320 Speaker 2: Interesting, But I also want you to hear the level 241 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 2: of detail that she waves into her big fat lie 242 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 2: about her two murdered little boys. 243 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 1: I can't even imagine. 244 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 2: I'm more excruciating death than being strapped in a car 245 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 2: can't get out. 246 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:13,679 Speaker 1: The car goes underwater. 247 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:18,680 Speaker 2: A muddy lake, and you're in the car screaming for 248 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 2: mommy as that car fills up with water till you drown. 249 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 1: Listen to our cut four crime online. 250 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 3: On the night of October twenty fifth, Susan Smith knocks 251 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:33,000 Speaker 3: on the door of a house near John D. Long Lake. 252 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 3: She's hysterical when the man answers the door and tells 253 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:39,239 Speaker 3: him to call the police. A black man just carjacked 254 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:41,080 Speaker 3: her at a red light. He had a gun and 255 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 3: she jumped out of the car, but her two boys, 256 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 3: three year old Michael and fourteen month old Alex, are 257 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 3: still in the car. Police begins searching immediately, and the 258 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 3: nation's media converges on Union, South Carolina for eight days. 259 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 3: Susan Smith tells an ever changing story of the carjacking, 260 00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 3: and friends get irritated when she keeps asking if Tom 261 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 3: Findley has reached out to see her friends. Wonder why 262 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 3: she would care about Findley when her two children are missing. 263 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 3: On day nine of intense media pressure, Susan Smith meets 264 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 3: with Union County Sheriff Howard Wells, and Wells meets with 265 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 3: the press. 266 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 1: Okay, note to sell who is Tom Finley? But there's more. 267 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:21,360 Speaker 1: There's more. Listen. 268 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 3: Susan Smith has carried the line as far as she can. 269 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 3: When she finally admits what she's done, there never was 270 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:28,800 Speaker 3: a black man with a gun that stole her car 271 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 3: with her kids in the back. She now says she 272 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 3: went out for a drive with her sons buckled into 273 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 3: their car seats in the back. Feeling desperate, alone and suicidal. 274 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:39,640 Speaker 3: She now says she drove to John D. Long Lake 275 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 3: and planned to roll the car into the lake. Smith 276 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 3: puts the car in neutral, but instead of going into 277 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 3: the lake with the car and the boys, she jumps 278 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 3: out and watches the car sink. Based on her directions 279 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 3: for where the car should be, scuba divers locate the 280 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:55,720 Speaker 3: vehicle with the boys in the back, still buckled into 281 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 3: their seats. 282 00:15:56,400 --> 00:16:01,960 Speaker 2: Just let that so Kim for just one moment, claiming 283 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 2: you know why is it Chrismindonna, that all these people 284 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 2: that want to commit suicide end up killing their children 285 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 2: or their family or somebody else they miraculously live. 286 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 6: I mean, just a horrific thought in of itself, right, Nancy, 287 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 6: and they night. I actually drove the entire route that 288 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:22,720 Speaker 6: Susan Smith took that day. There were ample opportunities for 289 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 6: her to change her mind and turn around. I mean 290 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:31,479 Speaker 6: there were stop signs, They were, you know, through residential neighborhoods. 291 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:34,200 Speaker 6: And to think that she was saying to the public, 292 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 6: you know, or to the police when she initially confessed, well, 293 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:42,600 Speaker 6: you know, I thought about committing suicide, but I couldn't 294 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 6: do it, et cetera, So I jumped out. You know, 295 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 6: when you go to that boat ramp where these poor 296 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 6: little babies are strapped in those backseats, and that car 297 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 6: is going down that ramp, I would submit to you 298 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 6: she had gotten out of that car almost immediately and 299 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 6: let that car go to your point a couple of 300 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 6: minutes ago. And as that water started to fill that vehicle, 301 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:08,959 Speaker 6: can you imagine the horror that these children were experiencing 302 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 6: and the mother standing there as that vehicle started to sink. 303 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:19,000 Speaker 6: It took about six I think between six to fifteen 304 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:21,680 Speaker 6: seconds for that vehicle to hit the water, and within 305 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:23,199 Speaker 6: a minute it was submerged. 306 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:27,119 Speaker 9: Nathya. It just shows how cold blooded she is. She 307 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 9: could stand on the shore look at the car submerged 308 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:34,120 Speaker 9: and knowing that her babies were drowning. It really gives 309 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:40,240 Speaker 9: you insight into how detached and just cold blooded she is. 310 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, who is this woman? 311 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 2: Take a listen hour cut three from crime online dot Com. 312 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:50,360 Speaker 3: After high school, she began dating David Smith. Soon there's 313 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:52,240 Speaker 3: a baby on the way and the pair decided to 314 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:55,679 Speaker 3: get married. Ultimately, they have two boys, Michael Daniel and 315 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 3: Alexander Tyler, but the children don't keep the marriage together. 316 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:02,679 Speaker 3: The Smith separate several times. During one of these separations, 317 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:05,919 Speaker 3: Susan Smith begins dating Tom Finley, the single son of 318 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 3: a wealthy mill owner. 319 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 2: Ah, so that is who Tom Finley is, Okay, Tara Mallick, 320 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:17,680 Speaker 2: high profile lawyer joining us from our own law from 321 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 2: Smith and Mallet. 322 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:21,879 Speaker 1: Would that be motive she wants to be with this 323 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:25,439 Speaker 1: rich guy? Yeah? I think you know. She's painted in 324 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 1: different ways. 325 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:30,400 Speaker 4: During the trial itself, and there was some conflicting testimony. 326 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:33,880 Speaker 4: One of the theories of the case that was put 327 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 4: on and suspected was that she wanted to be with 328 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 4: Thomas Finley, Finley didn't like the fact that, you know, 329 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:44,879 Speaker 4: she had two kids in a way or in an 330 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 4: attempt to get back together with Finley, who she was 331 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 4: having an affair with, you know, she drowned her two boys. 332 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,640 Speaker 4: The other testimony that was presented during the trial was that, 333 00:18:56,760 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 4: you know, she was someone who was an abuse child, 334 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:04,119 Speaker 4: she had had a secret affair with her stepfather, she 335 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:05,880 Speaker 4: was frightened of her. 336 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:06,879 Speaker 6: Husband, you know. 337 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:09,120 Speaker 9: And so I think. 338 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:13,920 Speaker 4: Those details this jury ended up grappling with. And it's 339 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:15,879 Speaker 4: a case that should have been a death penalty case 340 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 4: that it's unfortunately not here. 341 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:17,920 Speaker 1: Quote. 342 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 2: She always thought it would be fun to be on 343 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:25,159 Speaker 2: that show, and that when they put Anna Delvey on 344 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 2: the show, Susan felt like maybe it was the possibility. 345 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:36,880 Speaker 2: Oh kay, I had enough of a problem with Anna Delviy, 346 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 2: the fake eirass who conned people out of hundreds of 347 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 2: thousands of dollars. She showed up on Dancing with the Stars, 348 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 2: and then she blamed Dancing with the. 349 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 1: Stars for exploiting her. Okay, I just these people. 350 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:55,159 Speaker 2: I can't make this up and now Susan Smith is 351 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 2: on the Dancing with the Stars train, oh or wants 352 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:04,399 Speaker 2: to be okay before she's cast for Dancing with the Stars. 353 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:06,960 Speaker 2: Can we just take a review of the evidence. 354 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:08,199 Speaker 1: Isn't it true? 355 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 2: Dave mack joining us from crime online dot Com that 356 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 2: Finley broke it off with her claiming he did not 357 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 2: want an instant family. He did, and. 358 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:21,560 Speaker 3: Nancy, more to the point, are more than just saying 359 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 3: I don't want kids. 360 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 6: There were other things he stated. 361 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:28,120 Speaker 3: In there about her and their relationship. He also cited 362 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:32,160 Speaker 3: their different upbringing and that that was a big stumbling block. 363 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:33,720 Speaker 1: Another one the. 364 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 3: Way Susan Smith acted and flirted with other men. He 365 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:41,960 Speaker 3: didn't like that, so he mentioned three basic things that 366 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:44,360 Speaker 3: he really didn't want an instant family. But these other 367 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:47,160 Speaker 3: two things were mentioned as well, and one was her 368 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:49,160 Speaker 3: own behavior of hitting on other men. 369 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 6: But she dismisses that. 370 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 3: In her thought process, blames it all on the kids 371 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:55,360 Speaker 3: and thinks she's seen getting back if she just gets 372 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 3: rid of that. She doesn't address the fact that she 373 00:20:58,119 --> 00:20:59,400 Speaker 3: hits on men all the time. 374 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:02,439 Speaker 1: Let me understand something, Dave Matt. 375 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 2: She met Finley the son of the rich guy, when 376 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 2: she and her husband were what divorce separated? 377 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:12,480 Speaker 1: What separated? 378 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 3: They actually when they were married, they had several full 379 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:20,480 Speaker 3: on separations where they were not living together, we're dating 380 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:24,640 Speaker 3: other people. And yet they would then get back together, 381 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:27,919 Speaker 3: and it was on and off for I think, I 382 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:29,639 Speaker 3: mean after they had the last time, he was fourteen 383 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 3: months old. Well, this happened, so it was an ongoing 384 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:35,240 Speaker 3: process in their relationship, that breaking up, getting back together. 385 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 2: Let me go back to doctor Bethany Marshall, what do 386 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:44,120 Speaker 2: you make of this? It was always presented that Finley 387 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 2: broke up with her because he didn't want an instant family, 388 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:50,600 Speaker 2: But according to the letter he sent her before she 389 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 2: murdered her to little boys, it was a lot more 390 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:54,080 Speaker 2: than that. 391 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:58,680 Speaker 9: He's probably minimizing it because now he has the scrutiny 392 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:00,639 Speaker 9: of the country and the core and saying, well, I 393 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 9: didn't really want her anyway. But there's partially, I think 394 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:06,159 Speaker 9: a half truth in that maybe he wasn't ready for 395 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:09,399 Speaker 9: a family and children and he was contemplating that. And 396 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:12,639 Speaker 9: I think Susan Smith was the kind of woman who 397 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 9: would just ignore the fact that he didn't want to 398 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:16,920 Speaker 9: be with her. She would think, oh, you know, I'll 399 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:19,440 Speaker 9: buy any dress. Oh I'll go shopping. Oh I'll buy 400 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:21,960 Speaker 9: some listics. I'll wear a low cut dress. Oh I'll 401 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:24,800 Speaker 9: just kill my children. I mean she would just throw 402 00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:27,840 Speaker 9: everything at it to get him back. So I think 403 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:31,119 Speaker 9: if he was ambivalent about her, that may have even 404 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 9: incentivized her to kill her children. 405 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 2: Okay, I obviously need to reword my question. There were 406 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:43,200 Speaker 2: other behaviors he found disturbing which led to his decision 407 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:46,359 Speaker 2: to break it off with her. Not only that he 408 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:49,359 Speaker 2: did not want an instant family, but he did not 409 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:54,240 Speaker 2: like the way she acted promiscuously with other guys. He 410 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:54,960 Speaker 2: didn't want that. 411 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 9: I think some women relate primarily to men because they 412 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:02,359 Speaker 9: feel they can seduce them, and I think this was 413 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:04,920 Speaker 9: probably her mo that the minute she met a man, 414 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:08,960 Speaker 9: she would be flicacious, she would be overly sexualized, she 415 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 9: would try to attract them. She probably did that all 416 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:15,719 Speaker 9: the time because this is a way of feeling important, 417 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:19,160 Speaker 9: like she's a real person in the real world, and 418 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:21,680 Speaker 9: she doesn't really have to relate to the men. If 419 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 9: it's sexual in an instant then they never become real 420 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,400 Speaker 9: people to her. They're all just objects, little objects who 421 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 9: flatter her. 422 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,560 Speaker 3: Listen, now, our cut for Susan Smith is planning a 423 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 3: future with the best catch in the county when she 424 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 3: gets a Dear John letter from Dear Tom. He explains 425 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 3: he doesn't think the relationship will work because of the 426 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 3: difference in their upbringing, the way she acts towards other men, 427 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:47,440 Speaker 3: and he doesn't want an instant family. He doesn't want 428 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:51,639 Speaker 3: children right now. Susan dismisses her upbringing or her behavior 429 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 3: towards other men as possible deal breakers in the relationship, 430 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:57,959 Speaker 3: and the only thing she sees is Tom Finley doesn't 431 00:23:57,960 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 3: want children. 432 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 2: Says she ignores everything except the children part of the complaint, 433 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 2: and then suddenly, poof, they're gone. In the last days, 434 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 2: Susan Smith back in the news, apparently having a romantic 435 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:19,200 Speaker 2: relationship with at least six men behind bars. 436 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:24,240 Speaker 1: Okay, what does that mean? Well, there are precursors to 437 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:31,160 Speaker 1: today's report of Susan Smith's relationships with six guys. What precursors? 438 00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:33,480 Speaker 1: Will listen to our cut ten. 439 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:36,440 Speaker 3: A tabloid news report claiming Susan Smith had been beaten 440 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:39,200 Speaker 3: by guards at a prison in South Carolina gave birth 441 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 3: to an investigation into the matter. While there was no 442 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:45,160 Speaker 3: proof she had been beaten. Smith told prison investigators that 443 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 3: she had four sexual encounters Lieutenant Houston Cagle, a supervisor 444 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:54,200 Speaker 3: at South Carolina's Women's Correctional Institution WCI, where she's confined. 445 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:57,439 Speaker 3: Cayle admitted having sex with Smith and another prisoner and 446 00:24:57,560 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 3: was charged with the offense in August of two thousand. 447 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:02,879 Speaker 3: Smith was twenty eight at the time and was disciplined 448 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:05,119 Speaker 3: for having sex with the guard, while fifty year old 449 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,399 Speaker 3: Kagel pleaded guilty and spent three months in jail. In 450 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:11,359 Speaker 3: two thousand and one, a prison captain, Alfred Rowe, also 451 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 3: pleaded guilty to having sex with Smith and was sentenced 452 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:17,959 Speaker 3: to five years probation. It was then discovered that Susan 453 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:21,800 Speaker 3: Smith engaged in sexual relations with Cagel after she tested 454 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:22,959 Speaker 3: positive for an STD. 455 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 2: Okay, so she claims I was beaten and that spawns 456 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:32,399 Speaker 2: an investigation, but it turns out she wasn't beaten. She 457 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 2: was sleeping with various prison guards. Scott Morgan remind. 458 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:38,680 Speaker 1: Me, what is it like to drown. You're the death 459 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:40,160 Speaker 1: investigator one of the. 460 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 7: Most horrible deaths that you can even begin to think about. 461 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,600 Speaker 7: And the fact is the thing that's always bothered me 462 00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:53,639 Speaker 7: about this case, Nancy, is that with Alex and mikeel On, 463 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 7: I think it's really important that I say their names 464 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 7: at this moment in time, because they are the victims. 465 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:01,719 Speaker 7: When they were strapped in those little seats in the 466 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:05,160 Speaker 7: back of that Mazda, in that tight, little confined place 467 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 7: where maybe their mother had taken them to McDonald's before, 468 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:10,439 Speaker 7: had taken them all over town, and suddenly they're at 469 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:12,399 Speaker 7: the edge of a boat ramp and they're thinking, you know, 470 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 7: what's mama doing now? You know, she gets out of 471 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:19,720 Speaker 7: the car, and as that car is left and neutral 472 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,720 Speaker 7: and goes down that boat ramp and begins to slowly 473 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:25,640 Speaker 7: sink beneath those dark waters out there. You know, they 474 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,560 Speaker 7: found that car about one hundred and twenty feet off 475 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:32,439 Speaker 7: of the shore. The dive team had looked for it 476 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:35,720 Speaker 7: for some period of time. Car was filled with water. 477 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:38,640 Speaker 7: Those kids were still strapped in that back seat, and 478 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:42,320 Speaker 7: our reaction as humans, if we're trying to catch our breath, 479 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 7: is to fight. And just imagine this, Nancy, they're strapped. 480 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 7: We've all got babies in our families that we've taken 481 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:52,639 Speaker 7: care of. We strapped them in car seats, And have 482 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 7: you ever seen a child struggle to get out of 483 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 7: the car seat, they're tired of being in it. Well, 484 00:26:56,320 --> 00:27:00,960 Speaker 7: imagine that only water's creeping up on you. Water's getting 485 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 7: into your nose, your little mouth, your eyes, You're running 486 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 7: out of oxygen. Your brain is screaming. It's on fire 487 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:12,640 Speaker 7: because there's no oxygen. You can't catch your breath, and 488 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 7: you have no idea. It's panic that's setting in. And 489 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 7: it would not have been. I just wanted to spell 490 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:23,160 Speaker 7: any kind of fantasy somebody might be having right now 491 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,439 Speaker 7: that this was a sudden and a quick death. It wasn't. 492 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 7: It was torturous. It was absolutely horrific what these babies 493 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 7: went through at that moment, Tom Nancy, And I'm with you. 494 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 7: I'm still to this day just befuddled. Why she's not 495 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:44,280 Speaker 7: sitting on death row and you know, forever and ever 496 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 7: she's getting going with her life. No, she and those 497 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:51,320 Speaker 7: babies died, died at this monster's hands out there out 498 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:51,720 Speaker 7: there in that. 499 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:55,879 Speaker 2: Lake, knowing full well what she did, immediately running to 500 00:27:55,960 --> 00:28:00,640 Speaker 2: a nearby home, claiming that an unknown male had. 501 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:01,720 Speaker 1: Jumped into her car. 502 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:03,679 Speaker 2: And I guess the only red light in the county, 503 00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 2: And I feel okay, saying that because where I grew 504 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 2: up that we didn't even have a red light, So 505 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 2: out of the entire county, an unknown assailant jumps into 506 00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,160 Speaker 2: her car at the one red light, takes. 507 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:18,880 Speaker 1: Her car and murders her children. 508 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 2: Okay, this is the woman these guys want to be with. 509 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:29,720 Speaker 2: Speaking of them, there's a matter of Captain Alfred Rowe. 510 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:34,640 Speaker 2: Now we heard about Cagel Kagile, a supervisor at South 511 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 2: Carolina Women's c I Correctional Institute. 512 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 1: And what happened with him. 513 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:47,520 Speaker 2: We know that he was ultimately identified because Susan Smith 514 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:49,680 Speaker 2: turned up with an std behind bars. 515 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 1: But there's more. Take a listen to our cut eleven. 516 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:56,520 Speaker 2: Does she not realize there are consequences to actions. 517 00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 3: Captain Alfred Smith was one of the guards who lost 518 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 3: their careers after having sex with Susan Smith behind bars. 519 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 3: Roe says Smith is a master manipulator, telling Inside Edition 520 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:08,400 Speaker 3: that Smith approached him at three in the morning, telling 521 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:10,640 Speaker 3: him she thought he was the nicest officer at the 522 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,720 Speaker 3: prison and that she was lonely. The former guard says 523 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 3: things just escalated from there. Roe claims he only had 524 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 3: sex with Smith one time, but it cost him everything. 525 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 3: He was fired from the job, lost his pension, and 526 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:25,720 Speaker 3: after pleading guilty to having sex with Smith, he was 527 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 3: sentenced to five years probation. 528 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 1: Take a listnour Cut twelve. 529 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 3: Sex isn't the only issue Susan Smith had faced in prison. 530 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,920 Speaker 3: Twice in twenty ten and once in twenty fifteen, Susan 531 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 3: Smith was disciplined on drug charges, losing privileges for more 532 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 3: than a year. Susan Smith's drug use escalated when she 533 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 3: switched prisons from Camille Graham Correctional Center in Columbia, South 534 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:48,880 Speaker 3: Carolina to Leath Correctional Institution in Greenwood, South Carolina. Former 535 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 3: prison guard Alfred Rowe, who pleaded guilty to having sex 536 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 3: with Smith at the prison, told the TV show Sellmate 537 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 3: Secrets when Smith was moved from one prison to another 538 00:29:57,320 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 3: that it was at that point where quote she could 539 00:29:59,880 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 3: know no longer get the mail attention that she used 540 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,400 Speaker 3: as a drug unquote, and instead turned to pilt, which. 541 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 2: Led to a series of drug infractions. 542 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace. 543 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:24,960 Speaker 2: According to one of Susan Smith's suitors, yes she's. 544 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:27,160 Speaker 1: Got boyfriends behind bars. Quote. 545 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 2: We would talk about opportunities once she gets out of jail. Okay, 546 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:36,280 Speaker 2: now this suitor had made concrete plans to be with 547 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 2: Susan Smith if she was released. Quote, we brainstormed a lot. 548 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 2: She'd send me letters and talk about her plans if 549 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:52,080 Speaker 2: she gets paroled. She thought about some sort of advice blog, 550 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 2: or maybe prison reform or some way she could be 551 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:04,959 Speaker 2: active on social media. She even asked me how she 552 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 2: could get on Dancing with the Stars because she said 553 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:13,680 Speaker 2: that everyone would watch her. Okay, everyone's watching her, but 554 00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:18,240 Speaker 2: for all the wrong reasons. Susan Smith, woman, you killed 555 00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:22,600 Speaker 2: your two little boys in a horrible way. You're not 556 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:24,760 Speaker 2: going on Dancing with the Stars, or at least I 557 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:29,920 Speaker 2: think you're not. What happened to those two precious boys. 558 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 2: The narrative, her story that she projects is so different 559 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:40,680 Speaker 2: from reality. Life has not passed her by. She committed 560 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:46,480 Speaker 2: double murder, that that's what happened. It's not anyone's fault 561 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:47,280 Speaker 2: but her own. 562 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:48,160 Speaker 1: Absolutely. 563 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:52,920 Speaker 4: I mean, and if life has passed her by, how 564 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,000 Speaker 4: does she characterize what she did to her son? She 565 00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 4: took their life away. They didn't even have the opportunity 566 00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 4: to live a life. I mean, these were really young 567 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:06,240 Speaker 4: kids here, and I think you know the pattern of 568 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:11,040 Speaker 4: behavior that she's exhibited, like the infractions that she's picked 569 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:13,280 Speaker 4: up while she's been in prison. I mean, all of 570 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:16,400 Speaker 4: this doesn't tend to show that this is someone who 571 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 4: has been rehabilitated while in prison. I mean she's still 572 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:24,840 Speaker 4: showing those signs of manipulation that you know she engaged 573 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:29,320 Speaker 4: in before she was convicted in Sensus, you know, leading 574 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:32,360 Speaker 4: on the nation for nine days, telling lies about what 575 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:35,320 Speaker 4: actually happened, telling lies and bringing fingers of people that 576 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:36,120 Speaker 4: didn't exist. 577 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:37,200 Speaker 9: So this is a. 578 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:39,480 Speaker 4: Really deeply disturbed individual. 579 00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:43,080 Speaker 2: Chris mc dunna with me, a former homicide detective and 580 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:46,920 Speaker 2: host of YouTube channel The Interview Room who has investigated 581 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:52,320 Speaker 2: at least three hundred homicides. You know, defendants can be very, 582 00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:58,480 Speaker 2: very charming. Think about Scott Paterson or doctor Martin McNeil, 583 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:03,440 Speaker 2: who killed his wife, a beauty queen. According to Susan 584 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:08,040 Speaker 2: Smith's family, they say, quote she seems to be happy, 585 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:13,040 Speaker 2: and that she quote always had a messy love life. 586 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:19,959 Speaker 2: She's creating a fictional version of her life and people 587 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:25,400 Speaker 2: are buying it. These guys, these lonely hearts, are buying 588 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:29,840 Speaker 2: it and attempting to have let me just say, romantic 589 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:34,160 Speaker 2: interludes with her Chris McDonough, have you ever met a 590 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:38,040 Speaker 2: charming murder defendant, because I have absolutely Nancy. 591 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:42,479 Speaker 6: And what's interesting about her is we have to always 592 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:47,400 Speaker 6: remember that all behavior has a purpose, and that past 593 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 6: behavior is usually an indication of future behavior. So she 594 00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:57,160 Speaker 6: has always, throughout her entire case and through her life 595 00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:00,720 Speaker 6: here while in prison and even before prison, she always 596 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 6: sometimes projected the words of the day into her vocabulary. 597 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:11,319 Speaker 6: And if we listen real carefully to the minutia of 598 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:15,080 Speaker 6: what she said in the very beginning, whoever they are, 599 00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:21,360 Speaker 6: please bring them home. She's talking about two suspects, but 600 00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:26,040 Speaker 6: she talks about one in terms of a description. And 601 00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:29,160 Speaker 6: now if we fast forward that to today, we have 602 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:34,839 Speaker 6: six individuals men who quite frankly, I can't figure that 603 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,360 Speaker 6: piece of the puzzle out. You know, that's for the 604 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:40,960 Speaker 6: doctors to tell us what that's all about. But she 605 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:47,240 Speaker 6: is utilizing that behavior still to this day, by talking 606 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:53,200 Speaker 6: about money, by talking about sexual you know, TIFFs there 607 00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:57,560 Speaker 6: between the two of them, and she hasn't lost a 608 00:34:57,680 --> 00:34:59,399 Speaker 6: spot from miss Leopard, you. 609 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:02,680 Speaker 2: Know, Morgan, maybe we just know too much when it 610 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:06,080 Speaker 2: comes to murder, because when I think of Susan Smith, 611 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:11,120 Speaker 2: I immediately think of being trapped, strapped in to a 612 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:15,880 Speaker 2: car as it's going down a ramp and going underwater 613 00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 2: and seeing the water coming up on either side and 614 00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:22,680 Speaker 2: starting to pour in through the windshields. It comes up 615 00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:26,799 Speaker 2: around you and you can't get out. I mean, the 616 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:30,640 Speaker 2: children in this case were three and fourteen months. 617 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:35,279 Speaker 7: They never had stood a chance within this environment. And 618 00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:39,840 Speaker 7: here's another thing that people might not be aware of. 619 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:45,480 Speaker 7: After that car dip beneath the surface of that water, 620 00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:50,120 Speaker 7: one other element we have to consider. And again I 621 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:52,960 Speaker 7: go back to the idea that we all have had babies, 622 00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:55,960 Speaker 7: you know, parents, that sort of thing. I've got kids 623 00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:59,279 Speaker 7: and grandkids whom I love dearly. And what is it 624 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:02,120 Speaker 7: the kids are afraid of late at night? It's darkness, 625 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:05,120 Speaker 7: and it would you would not have been able to 626 00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:07,480 Speaker 7: have seen your hand in front of your face. So 627 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:11,520 Speaker 7: not only are they absent a loving mother who normally 628 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:16,640 Speaker 7: you would hope would take care of them, they're they're disoriented, 629 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:19,880 Speaker 7: they're running out of breath, and it's dark, Nancy, it's 630 00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:23,759 Speaker 7: cold and it's dark down there. And that's that goes 631 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:28,920 Speaker 7: to the level of horror that they're that they're you know, experiencing. 632 00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:30,160 Speaker 1: You know, I've been. 633 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:36,000 Speaker 2: I've been lighthearted as I discussed Susan Smith wanting to 634 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:39,719 Speaker 2: be on Dancing with the Stars. Other criminals have been on, 635 00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:45,000 Speaker 2: but no criminal that has been charged with murder, much 636 00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:51,160 Speaker 2: less convicted in the deaths of two toddlers, two little boys. 637 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:57,520 Speaker 2: This shows beyond all doubt that Susan Smith thinks about 638 00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:01,359 Speaker 2: one thing and one thing only, just as she did the. 639 00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:04,440 Speaker 1: Day she murdered her boys herself. 640 00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:12,480 Speaker 2: Nancy Grace signing off good bye friend.