WEBVTT - From the Vault: The Minotaur, Part 3 0:00:05.720 --> 0:00:08.000 Hey, welcome to stuff to blow your mind. This is 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:11.039 Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And this is a 0:00:11.119 --> 0:00:15.880 Vault episode. It originally aired October and it's part three 0:00:15.920 --> 0:00:18.240 of our series on the Minotaur. Let's jump right in. 0:00:21.000 --> 0:00:24.720 He lives there. From there he plots my destiny and 0:00:24.880 --> 0:00:29.880 schemes to usurp my throne. His eyelids of stone taunt me, 0:00:30.360 --> 0:00:36.440 insatiable minotaur. My dreams chafe against his horns. In my dreams, 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:41.800 I enter the labyrinth, I'm there alone, unchained. The scepter 0:00:42.000 --> 0:00:50.639 bends in my fist, and he comes before me, monstrous, sweet, monstrous, free, 0:00:51.280 --> 0:00:54.800 and I can no longer govern my dreams. So many 0:00:54.840 --> 0:00:58.680 deliberations wait for the day when the world of men 0:00:58.800 --> 0:01:03.320 will harbor my story and blood. Secret River. You have 0:01:03.440 --> 0:01:07.560 not heard me yet. Kill me first. Now you provoke 0:01:07.680 --> 0:01:10.559 me as if you're plotting some kind of scheme I've 0:01:10.600 --> 0:01:15.000 made up my mind. Ultimate freedom is fostered by that 0:01:15.120 --> 0:01:18.520 blade which you hold in your fist, the same as 0:01:18.560 --> 0:01:22.440 a sudden parting of waters in the ocean deep. What 0:01:22.480 --> 0:01:27.240 do you know of death, grant her of profound life? Look, 0:01:27.680 --> 0:01:30.760 there is only one way to kill a monster. And 0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:41.440 that is to embrace it. Welcome to Stuff to Blow 0:01:41.480 --> 0:01:50.480 your Mind production of My Heart Radio. Hey are you 0:01:50.520 --> 0:01:52.440 welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind? My name is 0:01:52.560 --> 0:01:55.840 Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with 0:01:56.040 --> 0:01:59.120 part three of The Minotaur and the Labyrinth where we're 0:01:59.120 --> 0:02:01.800 coming out of the dark. Got you once again. So 0:02:01.840 --> 0:02:05.640 those opening selections were from a play called The Kings 0:02:05.680 --> 0:02:09.840 by Julio Cortissar, who's an Argentinean writer that we've been 0:02:10.160 --> 0:02:14.520 talking about recently. That that translation was by Kari Dad's veach. 0:02:15.480 --> 0:02:17.440 But so the first part I read were the words 0:02:17.520 --> 0:02:19.800 of of King Minos, and then after that was an 0:02:19.800 --> 0:02:23.680 exchange between Theseus and the Minotaur, with our producer Seth 0:02:23.720 --> 0:02:27.919 as Theseus as the jerk of the story. Yes, um, 0:02:27.960 --> 0:02:31.160 this is a This is such an interesting uh play. 0:02:31.600 --> 0:02:34.119 I had never heard of this before until I ran 0:02:34.160 --> 0:02:38.440 across this very translation at in translation dot Brooklyn Rail 0:02:38.560 --> 0:02:42.000 dot org Um. Because I don't believe it is currently 0:02:42.120 --> 0:02:44.680 in print in English. I could be wrong on that. 0:02:44.720 --> 0:02:47.000 I see that it is in print in Spanish, but 0:02:47.080 --> 0:02:51.120 not in English. Cortissar has a number of really interesting 0:02:51.120 --> 0:02:53.960 short stories that I read back when I was in college. 0:02:54.000 --> 0:02:56.680 One of them that I remember really liking is called 0:02:56.680 --> 0:02:59.799 Axlotal and it's a story about a man who repeatedly 0:03:00.400 --> 0:03:03.160 visits an axcel little tank at the Jardine de Parry, 0:03:03.560 --> 0:03:08.040 and he gradually finds himself transforming into an axcel odal 0:03:08.120 --> 0:03:10.919 as he watches them. It's pretty good. Yeah, I'm looking 0:03:10.960 --> 0:03:14.040 forward to read that one. Uh you you sent me 0:03:14.080 --> 0:03:16.320 a copy to check out. In fact, a number of 0:03:16.360 --> 0:03:18.360 his short story sound just right up my alley, But 0:03:18.400 --> 0:03:22.600 I've never read anything by Cortazar. Now. Another fun thing 0:03:22.639 --> 0:03:24.760 about this, so some of you might remember that we 0:03:24.800 --> 0:03:27.680 had called an opening reading on a previous episode about 0:03:27.680 --> 0:03:33.880 the mintur from uh Bores the House of Asterion. Bores, 0:03:34.560 --> 0:03:38.160 of course, was also an Argentinian writer. Um, perhaps you 0:03:38.160 --> 0:03:42.000 know one of the most famous Argentinian writers. And it's 0:03:42.000 --> 0:03:45.800 interesting that this play, The Kings or Lasreles was published 0:03:45.800 --> 0:03:50.080 in ninety seven, just a year after Borges wrote, Uh 0:03:50.160 --> 0:03:53.280 that story to begin with the House of Hysterion. Oh, 0:03:53.640 --> 0:03:56.920 is there like an implication of inspiration or common inspiration 0:03:57.000 --> 0:03:59.720 between the two. Well, I was looking into this because 0:03:59.760 --> 0:04:03.320 I think a lot of people assumed that Cortisar was 0:04:03.400 --> 0:04:08.360 inspired by the House of hysterian Um. Borges himself actually 0:04:08.360 --> 0:04:12.480 published the play alongside Asterien in the literary journal that 0:04:12.520 --> 0:04:15.880 he edited in nine seven. But I was I was 0:04:15.920 --> 0:04:18.919 looking at an article titled The Incessant Return of the 0:04:18.960 --> 0:04:23.159 Minotaur by Amy Frasier Yoder and just keeps coming back. Yeah, 0:04:23.400 --> 0:04:26.200 And they write that while it was often assumed that 0:04:26.279 --> 0:04:31.160 borges story influenced Courtisar, there's evidence from letters between Cortazar 0:04:31.480 --> 0:04:35.839 and Borges that Cortisar might not have read borhes story previously, 0:04:36.040 --> 0:04:39.479 so there might be more convergence here than inspiration. But 0:04:39.600 --> 0:04:42.400 still it seems that Boges was was very much a 0:04:42.400 --> 0:04:45.200 fan of this piece. I mean, he published it, and 0:04:45.240 --> 0:04:48.599 obviously how could Borhes not like an entire play with 0:04:48.640 --> 0:04:52.599 all of this this this beautiful you know, poetic language, uh, 0:04:52.600 --> 0:04:56.000 and contemplation of the labyrinth and the and the the 0:04:56.360 --> 0:05:00.520 various kings that are caught within its grasp. Really, this 0:05:00.560 --> 0:05:02.080 is what I was just telling you earlier, before we 0:05:02.120 --> 0:05:04.440 started hitting the cord. You could basically you could print 0:05:04.480 --> 0:05:06.200 this play out. You could throw a dart at it, 0:05:06.440 --> 0:05:09.680 and you could you could find something beautiful. Uh, Like, 0:05:09.720 --> 0:05:12.479 there's this whole stretch where because I should point out 0:05:12.480 --> 0:05:16.719 that the minotaur and Theseus have a very long conversation. Um, 0:05:16.760 --> 0:05:19.360 considering that most of the time it's just about them fighting, 0:05:19.360 --> 0:05:22.240 they have a long conversation in this play. And there's 0:05:22.240 --> 0:05:26.119 this whole bit about the string that Theseus has uh 0:05:26.360 --> 0:05:29.279 has has has has wound out behind him, you know, 0:05:29.320 --> 0:05:31.560 so that he can return so you can escape the labyrinth, 0:05:31.680 --> 0:05:34.200 about how it is like a river flowing out to 0:05:34.279 --> 0:05:37.360 the ocean. Uh. So it's and and then the ocean 0:05:37.520 --> 0:05:40.560 is also the minuteur sister. There's There's just a lot 0:05:40.600 --> 0:05:42.760 of beautiful stuff in it. So even if you're you're 0:05:42.800 --> 0:05:46.440 not really into reading a lot of unproduced plays, you should. 0:05:46.520 --> 0:05:49.040 You should. I recommend you check this out at the 0:05:49.080 --> 0:05:51.040 website we mentioned earlier, and if you've had a chance 0:05:51.080 --> 0:05:53.640 to see it. Uh, that sounds awesome. I'd love to 0:05:53.640 --> 0:05:56.960 hear about it. That's interesting that you mentioned the twine 0:05:57.000 --> 0:05:59.280 as a river, because that goes back to in a 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:03.240 It's telling of the story when he's talking about Dadalus's 0:06:03.320 --> 0:06:06.880 design of the labyrinth. He describes it as like a 0:06:06.960 --> 0:06:10.120 river that twists and turns back and forth, and waters 0:06:10.160 --> 0:06:13.960 that churn in upon themselves going this way and that. Ah, 0:06:13.960 --> 0:06:17.200 that's right, that's right. So this is indeed our our 0:06:17.360 --> 0:06:21.440 third episode on the minotaur um, and we wanted to 0:06:22.000 --> 0:06:23.960 I guess, kick things off here first of all with 0:06:24.000 --> 0:06:27.400 that that that brief reading, but also just to discuss 0:06:27.920 --> 0:06:31.279 pop culture minotaurs a little bit UM and cultural minotaurs 0:06:31.320 --> 0:06:33.880 of the more modern era in a little bit more 0:06:34.040 --> 0:06:37.919 more detail. UM. As far as just cinema goes, I 0:06:37.960 --> 0:06:40.479 have to say, I think it's it's really hard to 0:06:40.480 --> 0:06:45.039 find a quality minotaur in a film or TV. I 0:06:45.040 --> 0:06:46.760 don't know if you've had the same experience, Joe, but 0:06:46.800 --> 0:06:49.159 I feel like even when the costume or the c 0:06:49.279 --> 0:06:52.719 g I or overall presentation is solid enough, and lord knows, 0:06:52.760 --> 0:06:57.000 it often isn't um. Minotaurs are often presented as just 0:06:57.120 --> 0:07:01.800 mirror beastly brutes. You know, they're they're And a big 0:07:01.839 --> 0:07:04.760 part of that is that they are not in the labyrinth. Yes, 0:07:04.800 --> 0:07:07.360 a minotaur out of its labyrinth is like a hermit 0:07:07.400 --> 0:07:09.760 crab out of its shell. It's just not even really 0:07:09.800 --> 0:07:13.720 the same creature, is it. The best on screen minotaur 0:07:13.840 --> 0:07:15.920 I can think of is actually one that we mentioned 0:07:15.920 --> 0:07:17.800 in the first episode, which is the one in Jim 0:07:17.920 --> 0:07:21.600 Hinson's storyteller Greek Myths with Michael Gambon as as deadal 0:07:21.680 --> 0:07:25.280 as I think, or at least as the storyteller. Uh. 0:07:25.320 --> 0:07:28.880 And that that one is really good because you don't 0:07:28.920 --> 0:07:32.200 get too much of a look at the minotaur. I think, 0:07:32.240 --> 0:07:34.280 as it should be, you know, it should be glances 0:07:34.280 --> 0:07:37.400 here and there, and or glances or glimpses whichever I 0:07:37.480 --> 0:07:39.520 meant to say that. But the glimpses you do get 0:07:39.760 --> 0:07:42.480 are full of terror and pity. It's it's very good. 0:07:42.520 --> 0:07:45.320 It conveys sort of both of the meanings of the 0:07:45.360 --> 0:07:48.680 story as we read it today, the probably the more original, 0:07:48.960 --> 0:07:51.520 terrifying reading, but also the subtle reading where you see 0:07:51.520 --> 0:07:54.960 the monster as an object of of of sadness and pity. 0:07:55.320 --> 0:07:58.360 Yeah yeah, yeah again, that one is is just excellent 0:07:58.400 --> 0:08:00.480 and I highly recommend folks check that out if you 0:08:00.480 --> 0:08:02.920 haven't seen it already. I think it all holds up 0:08:03.000 --> 0:08:06.400 really well. David Morrissey, who would go on to of 0:08:06.400 --> 0:08:09.120 course play the Governor and the Walking Dad, is in 0:08:09.200 --> 0:08:12.880 that a young David Morrissey. As theseus, I have never 0:08:12.920 --> 0:08:14.880 seen the Walking Dead, or I never made it past 0:08:14.880 --> 0:08:18.120 the second episode, but but when I was looking at 0:08:18.200 --> 0:08:20.840 him first of all. He kind of reminds me of 0:08:20.920 --> 0:08:24.080 Tom Cruise's creepy looking brother who was in Lost. Do 0:08:24.160 --> 0:08:27.960 you remember that guy? No, I don't. Tom Cruise's brother 0:08:28.040 --> 0:08:30.800 was in what was Unlost? Seth offers a correction, I 0:08:30.840 --> 0:08:34.160 was entirely wrong. He his name is William A. Pother 0:08:34.840 --> 0:08:38.200 and he's Tom Cruise's first cousin, not his brother. But 0:08:38.240 --> 0:08:40.360 he looks kind of like Tom Cruise, but with an 0:08:40.360 --> 0:08:44.839 extra dose of boyish charm and creepiness at the same time. 0:08:45.400 --> 0:08:48.679 And he played a role in Lost that was I 0:08:48.720 --> 0:08:51.840 don't know. I lost ultimately was was such a betrayal, 0:08:51.880 --> 0:08:54.400 but but there was a really good moment in the 0:08:54.440 --> 0:08:57.840 first season involving his his character. But anyway, I thought 0:08:57.880 --> 0:08:59.920 he kind of looked like him, And in any case, 0:09:00.160 --> 0:09:02.640 he does look like a jock bully, which is kind 0:09:02.640 --> 0:09:07.360 of what Theseus is. Yeah, I think I mentioned in 0:09:07.400 --> 0:09:11.040 the previous episode that John Would, another great actor of 0:09:11.040 --> 0:09:15.280 of the British stage, was in the The Greek myths 0:09:15.400 --> 0:09:20.360 Um series as well, playing Minos. But in another episode 0:09:20.360 --> 0:09:23.120 that's about Data, Lis and Acres. But still, if you 0:09:23.160 --> 0:09:24.760 take them all in, you kind of you kind of 0:09:24.760 --> 0:09:28.360 get into different were really multiple episodes you get the 0:09:28.679 --> 0:09:32.640 story of of Minos and the Minotaur and theseus. Well, 0:09:32.880 --> 0:09:36.240 somebody out there who is a filmmaker who is dedicated 0:09:36.440 --> 0:09:40.040 to practical sets and effects, you make this movie. Make 0:09:40.080 --> 0:09:43.160 the Labyrinth and Minotaur movie. No no, no green screen 0:09:43.240 --> 0:09:46.240 set junk no uh no c G I Minotaur. I 0:09:46.280 --> 0:09:50.160 want a good costume with really classic makeup effects and 0:09:50.160 --> 0:09:53.680 and go all out. Now in terms of Minotaurs out 0:09:53.679 --> 0:09:57.240 of context, there is one example that I think works 0:09:57.320 --> 0:10:00.720 really well, and it is from the MU video for 0:10:00.840 --> 0:10:05.120 Einstree's in The New Baton's song Sabrina, which is which 0:10:05.160 --> 0:10:07.760 is on YouTube. I have no idea. Check it out. 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:10.520 Oh it's well. Einstree's on the New Baton is a 0:10:11.000 --> 0:10:14.480 Is this this great German band? They started out more 0:10:14.520 --> 0:10:18.480 industrial or post industrial, but then they kind of change 0:10:18.559 --> 0:10:20.840 their sound as they win. They have a number of 0:10:20.880 --> 0:10:25.959 great songs, but this particular video consists entirely of this 0:10:26.760 --> 0:10:30.960 sad minotaur. That's that's well brought to life. Uh, putting 0:10:31.000 --> 0:10:36.000 on makeup in this really dank kind of bathroom. I'm 0:10:36.000 --> 0:10:38.920 looking at it now. Yeah, it's that's all that happens 0:10:38.920 --> 0:10:42.280 in it. But it captures this, It captures the sadness 0:10:42.280 --> 0:10:45.600 of minotaur at least that that I feel like should 0:10:45.600 --> 0:10:50.120 be a vital component alongside the savage minotaur. This video 0:10:50.200 --> 0:10:54.480 is strong with the cinematography of a nineties anti drug 0:10:54.559 --> 0:10:58.800 p S A commercial. Yeah yeah, kind it's got that 0:10:58.800 --> 0:11:01.960 that gross green film on everything like that. This is 0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:05.040 your brain on drugs, Yeah it does. It does remind 0:11:05.080 --> 0:11:07.360 me in some ways of various p s as I 0:11:07.400 --> 0:11:12.240 remember from UH as a child watching Canadian television, where 0:11:12.240 --> 0:11:14.640 there might be something that's like really weird and fantastic, 0:11:14.640 --> 0:11:16.319 and then at the end you find out, oh, this 0:11:16.400 --> 0:11:20.679 is the message. Now, before we get a little more 0:11:20.720 --> 0:11:24.760 into the science of mazes and UH and zoonotic diseases, 0:11:24.960 --> 0:11:26.719 you promised at some point that you were going to 0:11:26.800 --> 0:11:28.920 come back to talk a little bit about the minotaur 0:11:29.040 --> 0:11:31.480 and D and D. You mentioned this in the first episode. 0:11:31.960 --> 0:11:35.640 Oh yeah, So if the the error is to take 0:11:35.679 --> 0:11:39.120 the minotaur out of its place and just presented as 0:11:39.120 --> 0:11:42.400 a mere brute uh, Dungeons and Dragons has certainly been 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:46.120 guilty of that. And and not only dungeon dragons, but 0:11:46.160 --> 0:11:49.160 just individual dungeon masters who of course had the power 0:11:49.200 --> 0:11:52.000 to to take a minotaur and drop him in anywhere 0:11:52.160 --> 0:11:53.960 you go into the you go into the end, the 0:11:54.040 --> 0:11:58.280 inn keeps a minotaur as see what you'd like to drink? Yeah, so, 0:11:58.360 --> 0:11:59.760 I mean, you know, there's a lot of room to 0:12:00.200 --> 0:12:03.400 to misuse the minotaur, you know, at an individual level. 0:12:03.760 --> 0:12:08.160 But I will say that at least in the fifth edition. 0:12:08.559 --> 0:12:10.680 I can't really speak to earlier editions because I just 0:12:10.720 --> 0:12:12.800 don't have those numbers in my head. But in the 0:12:12.800 --> 0:12:15.360 most recent edition they do have a very high wisdom 0:12:15.440 --> 0:12:20.400 score and they have an ability called labyrinthine recall. Uh, 0:12:20.440 --> 0:12:24.160 so the minotaur can perfectly recall any path that has traveled, 0:12:24.480 --> 0:12:27.240 which I feel like that ability. It least, at the 0:12:27.360 --> 0:12:30.600 very least, it is a nudge to the dungeon master. Hey, 0:12:30.679 --> 0:12:32.679 you should put this minute our somewhere where it can 0:12:32.679 --> 0:12:36.120 take advantage of this. You should create some sort of labyrinth, 0:12:36.240 --> 0:12:40.200 be that labyrinth an actual you know, stone dungeon, or 0:12:40.360 --> 0:12:44.080 perhaps something like a Hedge maze or like a really um, 0:12:44.120 --> 0:12:46.679 you know, complicated city. I mean, there's so many different 0:12:46.720 --> 0:12:49.320 directions you could go in there. And in terms of 0:12:49.400 --> 0:12:53.560 actual adventure modules and campaigns, uh, the campaign out of 0:12:53.600 --> 0:12:58.679 the Abyss does put minotaurs in a place referred to 0:12:58.800 --> 0:13:01.760 as the labyrinth, which which is very nice, and I 0:13:01.760 --> 0:13:04.439 thought they did a good job in that the labyrinthine 0:13:04.520 --> 0:13:07.160 recall things seems like it would also close to the 0:13:07.200 --> 0:13:12.040 adventurers the option of certain strategic responses to the minator, 0:13:12.160 --> 0:13:15.360 like you can't do to the minotaur what Danny does 0:13:15.400 --> 0:13:17.719 to Jack at the end of the Shining movie, Right, 0:13:17.760 --> 0:13:20.000 you can't get him turned around in his own maze, 0:13:20.080 --> 0:13:22.600 like he's going to know his way around. Yeah, he 0:13:22.679 --> 0:13:26.240 is the ultimate master of this location unless you have 0:13:26.360 --> 0:13:30.079 some sort of privileged knowledge or magical abilities that have 0:13:30.160 --> 0:13:33.320 been gifted to you by other parties. So I was 0:13:33.400 --> 0:13:36.679 thinking about mazes, and I actually had an etymological question 0:13:36.720 --> 0:13:38.800 that I had to look up because I was wondering, 0:13:39.280 --> 0:13:43.120 are the English words maze and a maze as an 0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:46.439 amazing related, And it turns out that they are. They 0:13:46.440 --> 0:13:49.840 probably do come from the same linguistic route. So by 0:13:49.880 --> 0:13:53.640 around the beginning of the fourteenth century, the now maze 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:59.400 meant something like a delusion or a bewilderment confusion, and 0:13:59.480 --> 0:14:01.880 this is really related to the Old English verb a 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:04.920 mac n or a m a s i a n 0:14:05.040 --> 0:14:09.360 meaning to confuse, And so the origins of this word 0:14:09.360 --> 0:14:12.920 are not exactly clear. I saw one comparison on the 0:14:12.960 --> 0:14:18.240 online Etymological Dictionary to a Norwegian word mass m a 0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:21.320 s or mace meaning exhausting labor, which I thought would 0:14:21.320 --> 0:14:23.280 be a kind of interesting place for that concept to 0:14:23.280 --> 0:14:27.360 come from. But apparently maze came to have its current 0:14:27.400 --> 0:14:30.520 meaning in English, meaning something like a labyrinth the structure 0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:33.840 with branching paths around the end of the fourteenth century. 0:14:33.960 --> 0:14:38.040 But but so now you know, like amazement is related 0:14:38.080 --> 0:14:39.960 to a maze. They're the same thing, and they come 0:14:40.000 --> 0:14:44.120 from the idea of bewilderment, confusion and and being confounded. 0:14:45.440 --> 0:14:50.240 But hey, practical survival question. Imagine you are not theseus. 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:52.720 You're not armed with a with a sword or whatever. 0:14:52.760 --> 0:14:54.720 You don't have a ball of twine to make your 0:14:54.760 --> 0:14:56.960 way out of a maze. If you were just one 0:14:57.000 --> 0:15:01.560 of the Athenian youths finding yourself trapped an unfamiliar maze, 0:15:01.680 --> 0:15:04.520 could you get out? Is there actually a strategy for 0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:08.080 optimizing the solution of a maze other than trying to 0:15:08.120 --> 0:15:10.640 cut through walls? Obviously you can't do that well. I mean, 0:15:10.680 --> 0:15:12.280 I think a lot of them have heard the whole 0:15:12.640 --> 0:15:17.160 only take like right hand turns right turning right exactly, 0:15:17.240 --> 0:15:20.480 So it depends on how the maze is constructed, but 0:15:20.560 --> 0:15:24.320 that actually is a successful strategy for most mazes. The 0:15:24.440 --> 0:15:26.760 solution if you don't have a ball of twine is 0:15:26.800 --> 0:15:30.320 what's known as the right hand rule, and that's actually arbitrary. 0:15:30.360 --> 0:15:32.360 Could be the right hand or the left hand rule, 0:15:32.600 --> 0:15:34.520 but it's as simple as this. So you reach out 0:15:34.640 --> 0:15:37.240 with your right hand and you touch the right side 0:15:37.280 --> 0:15:41.080 wall of the corridor, and then you just proceed forward 0:15:41.160 --> 0:15:43.640 without ever taking your hand off the wall. So if 0:15:43.680 --> 0:15:45.680 you come to a dead end, you pivot around with 0:15:45.720 --> 0:15:49.000 your hand still touching the right side of the wall. Again. 0:15:49.040 --> 0:15:50.960 The same thing would work with the left hand. It's 0:15:51.080 --> 0:15:55.640 also known as the wall follower algorithm. And always following 0:15:55.680 --> 0:15:58.600 the same wall surface will mean that you bear in 0:15:58.640 --> 0:16:00.760 the same direction at every turn, which is what you 0:16:00.800 --> 0:16:03.960 were saying. If you always make the right turn, eventually 0:16:04.040 --> 0:16:06.800 you will find your way out. This will uh you know, 0:16:06.840 --> 0:16:08.880 even if you hit a dead end, you'll double back 0:16:08.920 --> 0:16:11.360 on your path. And if you keep following this method, 0:16:11.400 --> 0:16:14.320 you can actually solve the maze even blindfolded, because it 0:16:14.600 --> 0:16:18.680 doesn't matter what orientation you have mentally, you will just 0:16:18.800 --> 0:16:22.240 always be executing a new pathway unless you're trying to 0:16:22.280 --> 0:16:24.600 get yourself out of a dead end. But there is 0:16:24.640 --> 0:16:27.040 a catch here, and the catches that for this to work, 0:16:27.120 --> 0:16:30.120 the maze has to be what they call simply constructed, 0:16:30.960 --> 0:16:33.680 and what that means is all of the walls of 0:16:33.720 --> 0:16:37.200 the maze are connected to the outer wall or to 0:16:37.320 --> 0:16:40.720 each other, and this method will not necessarily work in 0:16:40.760 --> 0:16:43.480 a maze with what are called island walls, walls that 0:16:43.520 --> 0:16:46.720 are not connected to the outer boundary, and with these 0:16:46.720 --> 0:16:48.640 types of mazes, you can just end up going in 0:16:48.720 --> 0:16:52.480 circles around a wall segment in the middle. I've actually 0:16:52.560 --> 0:16:55.920 read about some funny cases of people going people going 0:16:55.920 --> 0:16:58.720 into corn mazes, you know, these things for fun or 0:16:58.720 --> 0:17:01.200 hedge mazes, and they get stuck in there and they 0:17:01.240 --> 0:17:03.440 try to use the wall follower pathway to get out, 0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:05.800 but they get stuck in there because they're just tracing 0:17:05.800 --> 0:17:08.960 around some isolated internal wall that doesn't connect to the 0:17:09.000 --> 0:17:13.160 outer walls. Forced to wander forever until the fall festival 0:17:13.760 --> 0:17:17.399 employees come and retrieve you. But there there is another catch. 0:17:17.480 --> 0:17:20.120 So even if you are in a maze with island 0:17:20.119 --> 0:17:23.080 walls walls that don't connect to the outer boundary. You 0:17:23.119 --> 0:17:26.160 can still use the right hand rule if you use 0:17:26.240 --> 0:17:29.479 it beginning at the entrance, because if you start at 0:17:29.480 --> 0:17:32.080 the entrance and you stick to it, you will never 0:17:32.280 --> 0:17:35.440 actually start following an island wall to begin with, because 0:17:35.440 --> 0:17:38.600 you'll always be attached to a wall that's attached to 0:17:38.640 --> 0:17:41.800 the exterior boundary. So if you start doing the doing 0:17:41.800 --> 0:17:44.480 the right hand rule at the entrance, it will work, 0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:46.880 though it might make the maze less fun, I mean, 0:17:46.880 --> 0:17:49.919 depending on whether this is like a torture human sacrifice 0:17:49.920 --> 0:17:52.960 scenario or just like a corn maze for fun. Right, 0:17:53.040 --> 0:17:56.400 But I guess if you if you use the right 0:17:56.440 --> 0:17:59.239 hand rule and it's the right kind of maze, you 0:17:59.280 --> 0:18:02.360 are in a it's transforming a maze into a labyrinth, 0:18:02.400 --> 0:18:05.200 if we're going to that, if you're using those terms 0:18:05.200 --> 0:18:08.399 exclusively for a maze is something with many different branching 0:18:08.400 --> 0:18:10.480 paths in which you can get lost. In a labyrinth 0:18:10.480 --> 0:18:13.160 as being this complex system through which there is only 0:18:13.200 --> 0:18:15.840 one path, uh and you don't have to to think 0:18:15.880 --> 0:18:18.720 about what you're doing as you follow it. Right multi 0:18:18.720 --> 0:18:23.040 cursal versus unicursal, you're turning it into a unicursal pathway 0:18:23.320 --> 0:18:26.439 where you are again just submitting to the design of 0:18:26.480 --> 0:18:29.840 the maze and taking decision making entirely out of it. Right, 0:18:29.880 --> 0:18:31.919 It's kind of like if you go to Ikea and 0:18:32.000 --> 0:18:33.959 you just decide, I'm just gonna go with the I'm 0:18:34.000 --> 0:18:36.119 not gonna buy anything, but I'm just gonna just go 0:18:36.240 --> 0:18:39.280 straight going, just gonna follow the path by everything my 0:18:39.440 --> 0:18:44.080 right hand touches. You end up in a maze of meatballs. 0:18:45.359 --> 0:18:48.680 But thinking about how to solve maze is also got me, uh, 0:18:49.200 --> 0:18:52.800 thinking about another tangent here, which is the role that 0:18:52.920 --> 0:18:56.919 mazes have played in the history of psychological research, so 0:18:57.000 --> 0:19:01.240 much that in a way, the maze came almost a 0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:06.240 physical emblem of the discipline of psychology and popular culture 0:19:06.400 --> 0:19:10.520 like well, especially the behavior ast schools. Of course, So 0:19:10.560 --> 0:19:13.960 if you saw a research psychologist in a movie made 0:19:14.000 --> 0:19:17.080 in the nineteen forties or fifties, what were they doing? 0:19:17.720 --> 0:19:20.280 I mean, they're probably running rats through a maze, right, 0:19:20.400 --> 0:19:24.000 Like every psychology lab in a movie has a rat 0:19:24.080 --> 0:19:26.720 maze in it. Yeah, and you think they feel like 0:19:26.720 --> 0:19:30.400 they're a fair number of educational shorts that also feature 0:19:30.600 --> 0:19:33.359 footage of mice and mazes. And here I think the 0:19:33.480 --> 0:19:36.600 maze as a research tool emerges in a very interesting 0:19:36.680 --> 0:19:40.760 relationship with the maze of myths, So consider the following 0:19:40.800 --> 0:19:43.399 with the myth of Theseus and the minotaur in mind. 0:19:44.359 --> 0:19:47.359 I was reading an article about the history of maze 0:19:47.440 --> 0:19:51.320 research by a psychologist named ce James Goodwin in the 0:19:51.400 --> 0:19:54.040 Monitor on Psychology, which is the magazine of the American 0:19:54.080 --> 0:19:58.640 Psychological Association or the a p A. And Goodwin begins 0:19:58.720 --> 0:20:03.920 by producing a really unbelievable quote from a neo behaviorist 0:20:04.000 --> 0:20:08.399 psychologist named Edward Chase Tolman, who was president of the 0:20:08.440 --> 0:20:11.399 APIA at the time. He uttered these words, and this 0:20:11.480 --> 0:20:13.320 was part of his yearly addressed to the a p 0:20:13.520 --> 0:20:16.440 A in nineteen thirty seven, And this is what he said. 0:20:17.200 --> 0:20:22.000 Everything important in psychology can be investigated in essence through 0:20:22.040 --> 0:20:26.480 the continued experimental and theoretical analysis of the determinants of 0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:31.800 rat behavior at a choice point in a maze. So everything, 0:20:32.040 --> 0:20:35.840 every everything, everything you could want to know about minds 0:20:36.200 --> 0:20:39.879 can be understood by watching how rats behave in a maze. Like, 0:20:39.960 --> 0:20:43.240 given enough time and enough rats and enough mazes, we 0:20:43.320 --> 0:20:48.760 can fully understand minds. I mean, undoubtedly it's useful for 0:20:49.040 --> 0:20:53.520 various things. That everything is far yeah, So I mean 0:20:53.640 --> 0:20:55.920 I guess to be fair to Tolman, I think maybe 0:20:55.960 --> 0:20:59.640 he was intentionally overstating his case a bit to be provocative. 0:21:00.160 --> 0:21:03.240 But this is actually indicative of like a powerful strain 0:21:03.320 --> 0:21:06.560 of thinking in the history of behaviorist psychology, basically that 0:21:07.080 --> 0:21:11.600 psychological science is not really concerned with internal phenomena. I remember, 0:21:11.640 --> 0:21:13.520 this was the behavior at school, so it's not really 0:21:13.560 --> 0:21:17.760 about thoughts or feelings and uh. And also the belief 0:21:17.800 --> 0:21:22.560 that differences between species are not necessarily very relevant. Brains 0:21:22.640 --> 0:21:26.120 in general were just sort of imagined as learning and 0:21:26.160 --> 0:21:31.399 conditioning machines that produce behavior based on how they've been conditioned, 0:21:31.800 --> 0:21:35.280 and so careful study of how rats behave under various 0:21:35.280 --> 0:21:38.960 controlled conditions and how they respond to various incentives and 0:21:39.000 --> 0:21:42.919 stimuli and training can eventually tell you pretty much everything 0:21:43.000 --> 0:21:45.480 that you would want to know about brains, even about 0:21:45.600 --> 0:21:49.680 human psychology. Now, I think this is clearly an extremely 0:21:49.760 --> 0:21:53.000 misguided point of view, but an interesting question is how 0:21:53.040 --> 0:21:55.080 did you get to their Like, how how did you 0:21:55.080 --> 0:21:57.320 get to the place where somebody could say that about 0:21:57.520 --> 0:22:01.119 rats and mazes and not immediate lee be mocked for it, 0:22:01.280 --> 0:22:04.320 you know, like, just sounds so ridiculous, So maybe we 0:22:04.359 --> 0:22:05.920 should take a break and then when we come back 0:22:06.000 --> 0:22:09.440 we can talk about the origins of rat maze research. 0:22:10.960 --> 0:22:16.399 Than alright, we're back, So how did we get so 0:22:16.440 --> 0:22:20.960 many mice in these mazes? Okay? So I mentioned this 0:22:21.080 --> 0:22:24.919 article by by C. James Goodwin, and Goodwin writes in 0:22:24.960 --> 0:22:28.200 his article that most historians of science agreed that the 0:22:28.240 --> 0:22:32.040 animal maze as a research tool was really pioneered in 0:22:32.080 --> 0:22:37.440 the eighteen nineties by researchers at Clark University. Specifically, this 0:22:37.560 --> 0:22:41.119 was a couple of graduate students named Willard Small and 0:22:41.280 --> 0:22:44.159 Linus Klein, who were working in the lab of the 0:22:44.200 --> 0:22:49.080 early American psychologist Edmund Sandford Uh. Though sometime around the 0:22:49.520 --> 0:22:53.680 same time the psychologist Edward Thorndyke also experimented with building 0:22:53.800 --> 0:22:57.600 a sort of maze for research on baby birds. He 0:22:57.680 --> 0:23:00.800 did this by stacking books in odd confuyu curations, but 0:23:00.920 --> 0:23:04.960 he he thought of these structures as pens. But the 0:23:05.040 --> 0:23:09.000