1 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to stuff to blow your mind. This is 2 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:11,039 Speaker 1: Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And this is a 3 00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:15,880 Speaker 1: Vault episode. It originally aired October and it's part three 4 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:18,240 Speaker 1: of our series on the Minotaur. Let's jump right in. 5 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:24,720 Speaker 1: He lives there. From there he plots my destiny and 6 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 1: schemes to usurp my throne. His eyelids of stone taunt me, 7 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: insatiable minotaur. My dreams chafe against his horns. In my dreams, 8 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 1: I enter the labyrinth, I'm there alone, unchained. The scepter 9 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:50,639 Speaker 1: bends in my fist, and he comes before me, monstrous, sweet, monstrous, free, 10 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 1: and I can no longer govern my dreams. So many 11 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:58,680 Speaker 1: deliberations wait for the day when the world of men 12 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 1: will harbor my story and blood. Secret River. You have 13 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:07,560 Speaker 1: not heard me yet. Kill me first. Now you provoke 14 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:10,559 Speaker 1: me as if you're plotting some kind of scheme I've 15 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 1: made up my mind. Ultimate freedom is fostered by that 16 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 1: blade which you hold in your fist, the same as 17 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 1: a sudden parting of waters in the ocean deep. What 18 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: do you know of death, grant her of profound life? Look, 19 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:30,760 Speaker 1: there is only one way to kill a monster. And 20 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 1: that is to embrace it. Welcome to Stuff to Blow 21 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 1: your Mind production of My Heart Radio. Hey are you 22 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 1: welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind? My name is 23 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 1: Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with 24 00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 1: part three of The Minotaur and the Labyrinth where we're 25 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 1: coming out of the dark. Got you once again. So 26 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:05,640 Speaker 1: those opening selections were from a play called The Kings 27 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:09,840 Speaker 1: by Julio Cortissar, who's an Argentinean writer that we've been 28 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 1: talking about recently. That that translation was by Kari Dad's veach. 29 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 1: But so the first part I read were the words 30 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:19,800 Speaker 1: of of King Minos, and then after that was an 31 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker 1: exchange between Theseus and the Minotaur, with our producer Seth 32 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:27,919 Speaker 1: as Theseus as the jerk of the story. Yes, um, 33 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 1: this is a This is such an interesting uh play. 34 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:34,119 Speaker 1: I had never heard of this before until I ran 35 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 1: across this very translation at in translation dot Brooklyn Rail 36 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 1: dot org Um. Because I don't believe it is currently 37 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 1: in print in English. I could be wrong on that. 38 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 1: I see that it is in print in Spanish, but 39 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 1: not in English. Cortissar has a number of really interesting 40 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:53,960 Speaker 1: short stories that I read back when I was in college. 41 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 1: One of them that I remember really liking is called 42 00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:59,799 Speaker 1: Axlotal and it's a story about a man who repeatedly 43 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 1: visits an axcel little tank at the Jardine de Parry, 44 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 1: and he gradually finds himself transforming into an axcel odal 45 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:10,919 Speaker 1: as he watches them. It's pretty good. Yeah, I'm looking 46 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 1: forward to read that one. Uh you you sent me 47 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 1: a copy to check out. In fact, a number of 48 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:18,360 Speaker 1: his short story sound just right up my alley, But 49 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 1: I've never read anything by Cortazar. Now. Another fun thing 50 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 1: about this, so some of you might remember that we 51 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 1: had called an opening reading on a previous episode about 52 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 1: the mintur from uh Bores the House of Asterion. Bores, 53 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 1: of course, was also an Argentinian writer. Um, perhaps you 54 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 1: know one of the most famous Argentinian writers. And it's 55 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 1: interesting that this play, The Kings or Lasreles was published 56 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 1: in ninety seven, just a year after Borges wrote, Uh 57 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 1: that story to begin with the House of Hysterion. Oh, 58 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 1: is there like an implication of inspiration or common inspiration 59 00:03:57,000 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: between the two. Well, I was looking into this because 60 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people assumed that Cortisar was 61 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 1: inspired by the House of hysterian Um. Borges himself actually 62 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 1: published the play alongside Asterien in the literary journal that 63 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 1: he edited in nine seven. But I was I was 64 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:18,919 Speaker 1: looking at an article titled The Incessant Return of the 65 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:23,159 Speaker 1: Minotaur by Amy Frasier Yoder and just keeps coming back. Yeah, 66 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 1: And they write that while it was often assumed that 67 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:31,160 Speaker 1: borges story influenced Courtisar, there's evidence from letters between Cortazar 68 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:35,839 Speaker 1: and Borges that Cortisar might not have read borhes story previously, 69 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:39,479 Speaker 1: so there might be more convergence here than inspiration. But 70 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 1: still it seems that Boges was was very much a 71 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 1: fan of this piece. I mean, he published it, and 72 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:48,599 Speaker 1: obviously how could Borhes not like an entire play with 73 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:52,599 Speaker 1: all of this this this beautiful you know, poetic language, uh, 74 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 1: and contemplation of the labyrinth and the and the the 75 00:04:56,360 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 1: various kings that are caught within its grasp. Really, this 76 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 1: is what I was just telling you earlier, before we 77 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 1: started hitting the cord. You could basically you could print 78 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 1: this play out. You could throw a dart at it, 79 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 1: and you could you could find something beautiful. Uh, Like, 80 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:12,479 Speaker 1: there's this whole stretch where because I should point out 81 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:16,719 Speaker 1: that the minotaur and Theseus have a very long conversation. Um, 82 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 1: considering that most of the time it's just about them fighting, 83 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 1: they have a long conversation in this play. And there's 84 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:26,119 Speaker 1: this whole bit about the string that Theseus has uh 85 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:29,279 Speaker 1: has has has has wound out behind him, you know, 86 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 1: so that he can return so you can escape the labyrinth, 87 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 1: about how it is like a river flowing out to 88 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:37,360 Speaker 1: the ocean. Uh. So it's and and then the ocean 89 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 1: is also the minuteur sister. There's There's just a lot 90 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 1: of beautiful stuff in it. So even if you're you're 91 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 1: not really into reading a lot of unproduced plays, you should. 92 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:49,040 Speaker 1: You should. I recommend you check this out at the 93 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:51,040 Speaker 1: website we mentioned earlier, and if you've had a chance 94 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 1: to see it. Uh, that sounds awesome. I'd love to 95 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 1: hear about it. That's interesting that you mentioned the twine 96 00:05:57,000 --> 00:05:59,280 Speaker 1: as a river, because that goes back to in a 97 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 1: It's telling of the story when he's talking about Dadalus's 98 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 1: design of the labyrinth. He describes it as like a 99 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 1: river that twists and turns back and forth, and waters 100 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 1: that churn in upon themselves going this way and that. Ah, 101 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 1: that's right, that's right. So this is indeed our our 102 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 1: third episode on the minotaur um, and we wanted to 103 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 1: I guess, kick things off here first of all with 104 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 1: that that that brief reading, but also just to discuss 105 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:31,279 Speaker 1: pop culture minotaurs a little bit UM and cultural minotaurs 106 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 1: of the more modern era in a little bit more 107 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:37,919 Speaker 1: more detail. UM. As far as just cinema goes, I 108 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:40,479 Speaker 1: have to say, I think it's it's really hard to 109 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:45,039 Speaker 1: find a quality minotaur in a film or TV. I 110 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 1: don't know if you've had the same experience, Joe, but 111 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:49,159 Speaker 1: I feel like even when the costume or the c 112 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:52,719 Speaker 1: g I or overall presentation is solid enough, and lord knows, 113 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:57,000 Speaker 1: it often isn't um. Minotaurs are often presented as just 114 00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 1: mirror beastly brutes. You know, they're they're And a big 115 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 1: part of that is that they are not in the labyrinth. Yes, 116 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:07,360 Speaker 1: a minotaur out of its labyrinth is like a hermit 117 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 1: crab out of its shell. It's just not even really 118 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 1: the same creature, is it. The best on screen minotaur 119 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 1: I can think of is actually one that we mentioned 120 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 1: in the first episode, which is the one in Jim 121 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 1: Hinson's storyteller Greek Myths with Michael Gambon as as deadal 122 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 1: as I think, or at least as the storyteller. Uh. 123 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 1: And that that one is really good because you don't 124 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 1: get too much of a look at the minotaur. I think, 125 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 1: as it should be, you know, it should be glances 126 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 1: here and there, and or glances or glimpses whichever I 127 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 1: meant to say that. But the glimpses you do get 128 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 1: are full of terror and pity. It's it's very good. 129 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 1: It conveys sort of both of the meanings of the 130 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 1: story as we read it today, the probably the more original, 131 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 1: terrifying reading, but also the subtle reading where you see 132 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 1: the monster as an object of of of sadness and pity. 133 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah again, that one is is just excellent 134 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 1: and I highly recommend folks check that out if you 135 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 1: haven't seen it already. I think it all holds up 136 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 1: really well. David Morrissey, who would go on to of 137 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 1: course play the Governor and the Walking Dad, is in 138 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 1: that a young David Morrissey. As theseus, I have never 139 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 1: seen the Walking Dead, or I never made it past 140 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:18,120 Speaker 1: the second episode, but but when I was looking at 141 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 1: him first of all. He kind of reminds me of 142 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 1: Tom Cruise's creepy looking brother who was in Lost. Do 143 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 1: you remember that guy? No, I don't. Tom Cruise's brother 144 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 1: was in what was Unlost? Seth offers a correction, I 145 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 1: was entirely wrong. He his name is William A. Pother 146 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:38,200 Speaker 1: and he's Tom Cruise's first cousin, not his brother. But 147 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 1: he looks kind of like Tom Cruise, but with an 148 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:44,839 Speaker 1: extra dose of boyish charm and creepiness at the same time. 149 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:48,679 Speaker 1: And he played a role in Lost that was I 150 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:51,840 Speaker 1: don't know. I lost ultimately was was such a betrayal, 151 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 1: but but there was a really good moment in the 152 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 1: first season involving his his character. But anyway, I thought 153 00:08:57,880 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 1: he kind of looked like him, And in any case, 154 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 1: he does look like a jock bully, which is kind 155 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:07,360 Speaker 1: of what Theseus is. Yeah, I think I mentioned in 156 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 1: the previous episode that John Would, another great actor of 157 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 1: of the British stage, was in the The Greek myths 158 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:20,360 Speaker 1: Um series as well, playing Minos. But in another episode 159 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 1: that's about Data, Lis and Acres. But still, if you 160 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 1: take them all in, you kind of you kind of 161 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 1: get into different were really multiple episodes you get the 162 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 1: story of of Minos and the Minotaur and theseus. Well, 163 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 1: somebody out there who is a filmmaker who is dedicated 164 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 1: to practical sets and effects, you make this movie. Make 165 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 1: the Labyrinth and Minotaur movie. No no, no green screen 166 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 1: set junk no uh no c G I Minotaur. I 167 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 1: want a good costume with really classic makeup effects and 168 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:53,680 Speaker 1: and go all out. Now in terms of Minotaurs out 169 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 1: of context, there is one example that I think works 170 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:00,720 Speaker 1: really well, and it is from the MU video for 171 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 1: Einstree's in The New Baton's song Sabrina, which is which 172 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 1: is on YouTube. I have no idea. Check it out. 173 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 1: Oh it's well. Einstree's on the New Baton is a 174 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 1: Is this this great German band? They started out more 175 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 1: industrial or post industrial, but then they kind of change 176 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:20,840 Speaker 1: their sound as they win. They have a number of 177 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:25,959 Speaker 1: great songs, but this particular video consists entirely of this 178 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:30,960 Speaker 1: sad minotaur. That's that's well brought to life. Uh, putting 179 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 1: on makeup in this really dank kind of bathroom. I'm 180 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 1: looking at it now. Yeah, it's that's all that happens 181 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 1: in it. But it captures this, It captures the sadness 182 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 1: of minotaur at least that that I feel like should 183 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 1: be a vital component alongside the savage minotaur. This video 184 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:54,480 Speaker 1: is strong with the cinematography of a nineties anti drug 185 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 1: p S A commercial. Yeah yeah, kind it's got that 186 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:01,960 Speaker 1: that gross green film on everything like that. This is 187 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 1: your brain on drugs, Yeah it does. It does remind 188 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 1: me in some ways of various p s as I 189 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 1: remember from UH as a child watching Canadian television, where 190 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 1: there might be something that's like really weird and fantastic, 191 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:16,319 Speaker 1: and then at the end you find out, oh, this 192 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:20,679 Speaker 1: is the message. Now, before we get a little more 193 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 1: into the science of mazes and UH and zoonotic diseases, 194 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:26,719 Speaker 1: you promised at some point that you were going to 195 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 1: come back to talk a little bit about the minotaur 196 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 1: and D and D. You mentioned this in the first episode. 197 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, So if the the error is to take 198 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 1: the minotaur out of its place and just presented as 199 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 1: a mere brute uh, Dungeons and Dragons has certainly been 200 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 1: guilty of that. And and not only dungeon dragons, but 201 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 1: just individual dungeon masters who of course had the power 202 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 1: to to take a minotaur and drop him in anywhere 203 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:53,960 Speaker 1: you go into the you go into the end, the 204 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 1: inn keeps a minotaur as see what you'd like to drink? Yeah, so, 205 00:11:58,360 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, there's a lot of room to 206 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 1: to misuse the minotaur, you know, at an individual level. 207 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 1: But I will say that at least in the fifth edition. 208 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:10,680 Speaker 1: I can't really speak to earlier editions because I just 209 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 1: don't have those numbers in my head. But in the 210 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 1: most recent edition they do have a very high wisdom 211 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 1: score and they have an ability called labyrinthine recall. Uh, 212 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 1: so the minotaur can perfectly recall any path that has traveled, 213 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:27,240 Speaker 1: which I feel like that ability. It least, at the 214 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 1: very least, it is a nudge to the dungeon master. Hey, 215 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:32,679 Speaker 1: you should put this minute our somewhere where it can 216 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:36,120 Speaker 1: take advantage of this. You should create some sort of labyrinth, 217 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:40,200 Speaker 1: be that labyrinth an actual you know, stone dungeon, or 218 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:44,080 Speaker 1: perhaps something like a Hedge maze or like a really um, 219 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:46,679 Speaker 1: you know, complicated city. I mean, there's so many different 220 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:49,320 Speaker 1: directions you could go in there. And in terms of 221 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:53,560 Speaker 1: actual adventure modules and campaigns, uh, the campaign out of 222 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:58,679 Speaker 1: the Abyss does put minotaurs in a place referred to 223 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:01,760 Speaker 1: as the labyrinth, which which is very nice, and I 224 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:04,439 Speaker 1: thought they did a good job in that the labyrinthine 225 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 1: recall things seems like it would also close to the 226 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 1: adventurers the option of certain strategic responses to the minator, 227 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 1: like you can't do to the minotaur what Danny does 228 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:17,719 Speaker 1: to Jack at the end of the Shining movie, Right, 229 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 1: you can't get him turned around in his own maze, 230 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 1: like he's going to know his way around. Yeah, he 231 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 1: is the ultimate master of this location unless you have 232 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:30,079 Speaker 1: some sort of privileged knowledge or magical abilities that have 233 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:33,320 Speaker 1: been gifted to you by other parties. So I was 234 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:36,679 Speaker 1: thinking about mazes, and I actually had an etymological question 235 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 1: that I had to look up because I was wondering, 236 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 1: are the English words maze and a maze as an 237 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:46,439 Speaker 1: amazing related, And it turns out that they are. They 238 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:49,840 Speaker 1: probably do come from the same linguistic route. So by 239 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 1: around the beginning of the fourteenth century, the now maze 240 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 1: meant something like a delusion or a bewilderment confusion, and 241 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 1: this is really related to the Old English verb a 242 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 1: mac n or a m a s i a n 243 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 1: meaning to confuse, And so the origins of this word 244 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 1: are not exactly clear. I saw one comparison on the 245 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 1: online Etymological Dictionary to a Norwegian word mass m a 246 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 1: s or mace meaning exhausting labor, which I thought would 247 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 1: be a kind of interesting place for that concept to 248 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 1: come from. But apparently maze came to have its current 249 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 1: meaning in English, meaning something like a labyrinth the structure 250 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:33,840 Speaker 1: with branching paths around the end of the fourteenth century. 251 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 1: But but so now you know, like amazement is related 252 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 1: to a maze. They're the same thing, and they come 253 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 1: from the idea of bewilderment, confusion and and being confounded. 254 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 1: But hey, practical survival question. Imagine you are not theseus. 255 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 1: You're not armed with a with a sword or whatever. 256 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 1: You don't have a ball of twine to make your 257 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 1: way out of a maze. If you were just one 258 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 1: of the Athenian youths finding yourself trapped an unfamiliar maze, 259 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 1: could you get out? Is there actually a strategy for 260 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:08,080 Speaker 1: optimizing the solution of a maze other than trying to 261 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 1: cut through walls? Obviously you can't do that well. I mean, 262 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 1: I think a lot of them have heard the whole 263 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 1: only take like right hand turns right turning right exactly, 264 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 1: So it depends on how the maze is constructed, but 265 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 1: that actually is a successful strategy for most mazes. The 266 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 1: solution if you don't have a ball of twine is 267 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 1: what's known as the right hand rule, and that's actually arbitrary. 268 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 1: Could be the right hand or the left hand rule, 269 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 1: but it's as simple as this. So you reach out 270 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 1: with your right hand and you touch the right side 271 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 1: wall of the corridor, and then you just proceed forward 272 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 1: without ever taking your hand off the wall. So if 273 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 1: you come to a dead end, you pivot around with 274 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:49,000 Speaker 1: your hand still touching the right side of the wall. Again. 275 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 1: The same thing would work with the left hand. It's 276 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 1: also known as the wall follower algorithm. And always following 277 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 1: the same wall surface will mean that you bear in 278 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 1: the same direction at every turn, which is what you 279 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 1: were saying. If you always make the right turn, eventually 280 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 1: you will find your way out. This will uh you know, 281 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:08,880 Speaker 1: even if you hit a dead end, you'll double back 282 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 1: on your path. And if you keep following this method, 283 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 1: you can actually solve the maze even blindfolded, because it 284 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 1: doesn't matter what orientation you have mentally, you will just 285 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 1: always be executing a new pathway unless you're trying to 286 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 1: get yourself out of a dead end. But there is 287 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:27,040 Speaker 1: a catch here, and the catches that for this to work, 288 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:30,120 Speaker 1: the maze has to be what they call simply constructed, 289 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 1: and what that means is all of the walls of 290 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 1: the maze are connected to the outer wall or to 291 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 1: each other, and this method will not necessarily work in 292 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 1: a maze with what are called island walls, walls that 293 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 1: are not connected to the outer boundary, and with these 294 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:48,640 Speaker 1: types of mazes, you can just end up going in 295 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:52,480 Speaker 1: circles around a wall segment in the middle. I've actually 296 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 1: read about some funny cases of people going people going 297 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 1: into corn mazes, you know, these things for fun or 298 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 1: hedge mazes, and they get stuck in there and they 299 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 1: try to use the wall follower pathway to get out, 300 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 1: but they get stuck in there because they're just tracing 301 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 1: around some isolated internal wall that doesn't connect to the 302 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:13,160 Speaker 1: outer walls. Forced to wander forever until the fall festival 303 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:17,399 Speaker 1: employees come and retrieve you. But there there is another catch. 304 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:20,120 Speaker 1: So even if you are in a maze with island 305 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 1: walls walls that don't connect to the outer boundary. You 306 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:26,160 Speaker 1: can still use the right hand rule if you use 307 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:29,479 Speaker 1: it beginning at the entrance, because if you start at 308 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 1: the entrance and you stick to it, you will never 309 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:35,440 Speaker 1: actually start following an island wall to begin with, because 310 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:38,600 Speaker 1: you'll always be attached to a wall that's attached to 311 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 1: the exterior boundary. So if you start doing the doing 312 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 1: the right hand rule at the entrance, it will work, 313 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:46,880 Speaker 1: though it might make the maze less fun, I mean, 314 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:49,919 Speaker 1: depending on whether this is like a torture human sacrifice 315 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 1: scenario or just like a corn maze for fun. Right, 316 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:56,400 Speaker 1: But I guess if you if you use the right 317 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:59,239 Speaker 1: hand rule and it's the right kind of maze, you 318 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:02,360 Speaker 1: are in a it's transforming a maze into a labyrinth, 319 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:05,200 Speaker 1: if we're going to that, if you're using those terms 320 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:08,399 Speaker 1: exclusively for a maze is something with many different branching 321 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:10,480 Speaker 1: paths in which you can get lost. In a labyrinth 322 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:13,160 Speaker 1: as being this complex system through which there is only 323 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 1: one path, uh and you don't have to to think 324 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 1: about what you're doing as you follow it. Right multi 325 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 1: cursal versus unicursal, you're turning it into a unicursal pathway 326 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:26,439 Speaker 1: where you are again just submitting to the design of 327 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:29,840 Speaker 1: the maze and taking decision making entirely out of it. Right, 328 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:31,919 Speaker 1: It's kind of like if you go to Ikea and 329 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:33,959 Speaker 1: you just decide, I'm just gonna go with the I'm 330 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:36,119 Speaker 1: not gonna buy anything, but I'm just gonna just go 331 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:39,280 Speaker 1: straight going, just gonna follow the path by everything my 332 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 1: right hand touches. You end up in a maze of meatballs. 333 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:48,680 Speaker 1: But thinking about how to solve maze is also got me, uh, 334 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 1: thinking about another tangent here, which is the role that 335 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:56,919 Speaker 1: mazes have played in the history of psychological research, so 336 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:01,240 Speaker 1: much that in a way, the maze came almost a 337 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:06,240 Speaker 1: physical emblem of the discipline of psychology and popular culture 338 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 1: like well, especially the behavior ast schools. Of course, So 339 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:13,960 Speaker 1: if you saw a research psychologist in a movie made 340 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 1: in the nineteen forties or fifties, what were they doing? 341 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 1: I mean, they're probably running rats through a maze, right, 342 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 1: Like every psychology lab in a movie has a rat 343 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 1: maze in it. Yeah, and you think they feel like 344 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:30,400 Speaker 1: they're a fair number of educational shorts that also feature 345 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 1: footage of mice and mazes. And here I think the 346 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 1: maze as a research tool emerges in a very interesting 347 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:40,760 Speaker 1: relationship with the maze of myths, So consider the following 348 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:43,399 Speaker 1: with the myth of Theseus and the minotaur in mind. 349 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:47,359 Speaker 1: I was reading an article about the history of maze 350 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 1: research by a psychologist named ce James Goodwin in the 351 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 1: Monitor on Psychology, which is the magazine of the American 352 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:58,640 Speaker 1: Psychological Association or the a p A. And Goodwin begins 353 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:03,920 Speaker 1: by producing a really unbelievable quote from a neo behaviorist 354 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:08,399 Speaker 1: psychologist named Edward Chase Tolman, who was president of the 355 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:11,399 Speaker 1: APIA at the time. He uttered these words, and this 356 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 1: was part of his yearly addressed to the a p 357 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:16,440 Speaker 1: A in nineteen thirty seven, And this is what he said. 358 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 1: Everything important in psychology can be investigated in essence through 359 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 1: the continued experimental and theoretical analysis of the determinants of 360 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:31,800 Speaker 1: rat behavior at a choice point in a maze. So everything, 361 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 1: every everything, everything you could want to know about minds 362 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:39,879 Speaker 1: can be understood by watching how rats behave in a maze. Like, 363 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 1: given enough time and enough rats and enough mazes, we 364 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 1: can fully understand minds. I mean, undoubtedly it's useful for 365 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 1: various things. That everything is far yeah, So I mean 366 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:55,920 Speaker 1: I guess to be fair to Tolman, I think maybe 367 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:59,640 Speaker 1: he was intentionally overstating his case a bit to be provocative. 368 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:03,240 Speaker 1: But this is actually indicative of like a powerful strain 369 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 1: of thinking in the history of behaviorist psychology, basically that 370 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 1: psychological science is not really concerned with internal phenomena. I remember, 371 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 1: this was the behavior at school, so it's not really 372 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 1: about thoughts or feelings and uh. And also the belief 373 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 1: that differences between species are not necessarily very relevant. Brains 374 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:26,120 Speaker 1: in general were just sort of imagined as learning and 375 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:31,399 Speaker 1: conditioning machines that produce behavior based on how they've been conditioned, 376 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 1: and so careful study of how rats behave under various 377 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:38,960 Speaker 1: controlled conditions and how they respond to various incentives and 378 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:42,919 Speaker 1: stimuli and training can eventually tell you pretty much everything 379 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:45,480 Speaker 1: that you would want to know about brains, even about 380 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:49,680 Speaker 1: human psychology. Now, I think this is clearly an extremely 381 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 1: misguided point of view, but an interesting question is how 382 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 1: did you get to their Like, how how did you 383 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 1: get to the place where somebody could say that about 384 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:01,119 Speaker 1: rats and mazes and not immediate lee be mocked for it, 385 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 1: you know, like, just sounds so ridiculous, So maybe we 386 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:05,920 Speaker 1: should take a break and then when we come back 387 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:09,440 Speaker 1: we can talk about the origins of rat maze research. 388 00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:16,399 Speaker 1: Than alright, we're back, So how did we get so 389 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:20,960 Speaker 1: many mice in these mazes? Okay? So I mentioned this 390 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:24,919 Speaker 1: article by by C. James Goodwin, and Goodwin writes in 391 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:28,200 Speaker 1: his article that most historians of science agreed that the 392 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 1: animal maze as a research tool was really pioneered in 393 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:37,440 Speaker 1: the eighteen nineties by researchers at Clark University. Specifically, this 394 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:41,119 Speaker 1: was a couple of graduate students named Willard Small and 395 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:44,159 Speaker 1: Linus Klein, who were working in the lab of the 396 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 1: early American psychologist Edmund Sandford Uh. Though sometime around the 397 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:53,680 Speaker 1: same time the psychologist Edward Thorndyke also experimented with building 398 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:57,600 Speaker 1: a sort of maze for research on baby birds. He 399 00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 1: did this by stacking books in odd confuyu curations, but 400 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:04,960 Speaker 1: he he thought of these structures as pens. But the 401 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:09,000 Speaker 1: mazes constructed in the Sanford lab at Clark University had 402 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 1: an interesting couple of points of inspiration. So one was 403 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 1: in the structures built by rats under a porch uh So, Kleins, 404 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 1: Small and Sanford were interested in studying the home finding 405 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:26,400 Speaker 1: ability of rats home finding, of course, is a very 406 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:29,240 Speaker 1: important skill for many motile animals. How do you find 407 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 1: your way back to home base after leaving to forage, 408 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:35,560 Speaker 1: or how do you find your way through confusing twist 409 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 1: and turns to locate a source of food or another 410 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:44,360 Speaker 1: familiar location. And so Klein recalled an incident where there 411 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 1: had been digging under the porch at a cabin on 412 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:52,880 Speaker 1: his father's farm in Virginia, and when the porch was excavated, 413 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:56,120 Speaker 1: they discovered that there were these runways that had been 414 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:59,920 Speaker 1: left quote by large feral rats to their nests under 415 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:04,360 Speaker 1: the porch, and the runways client thought somehow resembled mazes, 416 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 1: and this led to the idea of designing a test 417 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 1: environment based on a maze to study the psychology of rats, 418 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 1: and the model they ended up using for this maze 419 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:18,200 Speaker 1: was the Hampton Court Maze in England. And Robert, I've 420 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 1: got a picture for you to look at here. This 421 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 1: is still a popular tourist attraction. It's a hedge maze 422 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:26,359 Speaker 1: just outside London that was commissioned by William the Third 423 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,439 Speaker 1: around the year seventeen hundred and it is said to 424 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:33,040 Speaker 1: be the oldest surviving hedge maze in England. Yeah, this 425 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:36,639 Speaker 1: is a very impressive, very famous maze, kind of trapezoidal 426 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:40,359 Speaker 1: in shape. I think they restructured it somewhat to make 427 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,159 Speaker 1: it more of a rectangle in the lab version. The 428 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:45,400 Speaker 1: irony is that mice would have no problem at all 429 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 1: with the actual Hampton coordinates. That's right, Yeah, you just 430 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 1: cut underneath. Yeah, so of course you had to create 431 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 1: one that's much more unforgiving to the body of a mouse. 432 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 1: So what they did was at the Clark Lab they 433 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 1: made a tiny Ursian four rodents for rats with slight redesigns. 434 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:07,919 Speaker 1: UH had a wooden floor and walls made of wire mesh, 435 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 1: and so research with rats there in this maze went 436 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:16,040 Speaker 1: on for several years, mostly under Willard Small, and Goodwin 437 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:19,280 Speaker 1: writes the following quote. This was the time when psychology 438 00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 1: was the science of mental life, so it was not 439 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 1: surprising that Small described his maze study in quote mentalistic 440 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 1: terms rather than in the kind of language one might 441 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:33,159 Speaker 1: expect to read in a more modern learning study. So 442 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:36,159 Speaker 1: instead of reporting results in terms of error rates and 443 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 1: time to completion, Small tried to infer what the rats 444 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 1: were doing as they made their way through the maze, 445 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 1: and this led to observations such as and here I'm 446 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:49,440 Speaker 1: going to quote from Small when describing a rat almost 447 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,479 Speaker 1: making a wrong turn in the maze, Small wrote that 448 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:56,960 Speaker 1: the rat quote hesitated as if scratching his head, then 449 00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:00,920 Speaker 1: entered this dead end path slowly and doubt fully only 450 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,879 Speaker 1: a few steps. However, then with a sudden turn and 451 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:06,919 Speaker 1: a triumphant flick of his tail, he returned to the 452 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:10,119 Speaker 1: correct path. Which is funny because that does not sound 453 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 1: like scientific writing. Yes, hesitated as if scratching his head, 454 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 1: the triumphant flick of his tail. I mean this is 455 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,720 Speaker 1: This is a kind of qualitative description that's unusual to 456 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 1: more modern psychological methods, where in modern psychological methods you 457 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 1: would try to turn everything into unambiguous quantitative data points 458 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:36,360 Speaker 1: and remove the subjective judgment of the researcher as much 459 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:38,760 Speaker 1: as possible. But here Small is just saying, like, I 460 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:41,400 Speaker 1: wonder what little Mr Rat is thinking as he goes 461 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:43,240 Speaker 1: to the left or the right. Well, I think he 462 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 1: I think he feels triumphant. Now I think he feels 463 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,000 Speaker 1: like a big, strong rat. Now I know he's getting 464 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:52,359 Speaker 1: dangerously close to writing a smashing Pumpkins song. You know, 465 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 1: I've always had questions about that song because if the 466 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 1: world is a vampire sent to dray aane, what is 467 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:02,480 Speaker 1: it dray a meaning the world contains everything, doesn't it? 468 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:04,639 Speaker 1: The way the world is invoked there, it's like the 469 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:07,880 Speaker 1: some some total of existence is sent to drain what's 470 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:10,399 Speaker 1: outside of itself to drain? Oh, I think it is 471 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:15,200 Speaker 1: outer reality versus inter reality, right, Okay, it's Newmena and Phenomena. Yeah, 472 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:17,640 Speaker 1: I guess so that's the way I always interpreted. I mean, 473 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 1: not that I spent a lot of time really analyzing 474 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 1: the lyrics that song, but um, but that would be 475 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:25,840 Speaker 1: my guest. The Phenomena is a vampire sent to drain 476 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:29,400 Speaker 1: and the Newmena okay, yeah. Or I guess you could 477 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,199 Speaker 1: say the maze or the cage is the thing the 478 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 1: environment that contains the rat or the minotaur what have you. 479 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,200 Speaker 1: Here's a twist. What if that song is sung from 480 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 1: the point of view of a minotaur, like among the 481 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,679 Speaker 1: Athenian youths, there is a secret destroyer. You know. I 482 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 1: don't think I even looked for actual minotaur songs. Uh. 483 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:51,960 Speaker 1: There may be some really good ones out there, and 484 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:54,160 Speaker 1: I then I just don't know about them. Is there 485 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 1: not a misfits song. Let is there that I just 486 00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:59,679 Speaker 1: say the Minotaur and the new you and it's the 487 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:02,199 Speaker 1: minute again or something seems like I can't really I 488 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:04,640 Speaker 1: can't really find much of anything. But yeah, whether you're 489 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:07,920 Speaker 1: talking about the standards of modern research today or the 490 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:11,960 Speaker 1: behaviorist research that would come into vogue in the twentieth century, 491 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 1: in any case, you know, you would not want to say, 492 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 1: I think that the rat is thinking that the world 493 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,119 Speaker 1: is a vampire sent to dreane. You just want to 494 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 1: like neutrally describe unambiguous, objective behaviors and and and avoid 495 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 1: being anthropomorphic. And Smallest research was criticized even by some 496 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 1: people at the time for being anthropomorphic, like trying to 497 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:35,720 Speaker 1: inhabit the mind of the rat as if it had 498 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:40,600 Speaker 1: human thoughts. Nevertheless, small made some interesting and influential discoveries, 499 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 1: and these included the idea that rats could learn navigation 500 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:48,080 Speaker 1: and home finding with very little reliance on their sense 501 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:50,720 Speaker 1: of site. Two of the rats in his study group 502 00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:53,920 Speaker 1: were blind, and yet they learned the maze just as 503 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 1: well as the sited rats. And the use of senses 504 00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,479 Speaker 1: other than site can make sense when you consider that 505 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:03,320 Speaker 1: rats are often navigating almost completely dark spaces or navigating 506 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:06,320 Speaker 1: spaces at night, you know, under floorboards and so forth, 507 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:10,000 Speaker 1: and Small believed he had established with his research that 508 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 1: rats learned through a gradual accumulation of direct associations between 509 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:19,080 Speaker 1: sensory stimuli and the maze and patterns of success, and 510 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 1: this would later prove foundational to the behaviorist school of psychology, 511 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:27,560 Speaker 1: which was very focused on associative learning and gradual conditioning 512 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:31,960 Speaker 1: as the root of animal behavior. But probably more important 513 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 1: than what these studies actually found in their conclusions was 514 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:40,080 Speaker 1: the precedent they set for research methods, because Small's research 515 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:43,400 Speaker 1: led to this huge surge in maze research, much of 516 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,760 Speaker 1: which used rats as the study animal. The most classic 517 00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 1: variation is that you can mess around with independent variables 518 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:53,280 Speaker 1: to create an average learning curve for rats by you know, 519 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:55,720 Speaker 1: you run rats through a maze multiple times, and you 520 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:58,080 Speaker 1: chart the time it takes them to complete the maze 521 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:00,160 Speaker 1: and the number of errors they make along the way 522 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,040 Speaker 1: with each successive attempt, which is a very useful tool 523 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 1: for studying a certain kind of learning and how various 524 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,000 Speaker 1: things affect that kind of learning, like drugs and so forth. 525 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,160 Speaker 1: But some maze studies also used other animals at the 526 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 1: very simple and we've talked before about the the sort 527 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 1: of maze like research done on worms that was focused 528 00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,680 Speaker 1: on planaria. Uh. This was the origin actually of the 529 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:25,240 Speaker 1: memory transfer research of James McConnell that we talked about 530 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:27,479 Speaker 1: in a couple of full length episodes that you can 531 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:31,560 Speaker 1: check out in our archive called Devour of Memories. But 532 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:34,920 Speaker 1: the short version is that the American psychologist James McConnell 533 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 1: believed he had discovered that memories in the form of 534 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:42,960 Speaker 1: learned associations could be transferred from one flat worm to 535 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 1: another via cannibalism. So you teach one flat worm, grind 536 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 1: it up, feed it to another flat worm, and it learns, 537 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 1: you know, eat your brains and gain your knowledge. Later 538 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:56,200 Speaker 1: research through some doubts on that conclusion, but there's still 539 00:30:56,480 --> 00:31:01,080 Speaker 1: interesting ongoing research today hinting that planariam might possibly retain 540 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 1: memories after having their heads cut off, so there might 541 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 1: be some kind of memory in the bodies that's not 542 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:09,880 Speaker 1: just in the brain. And of course at the opposite 543 00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:12,240 Speaker 1: end of the scale, you've got studies that actually put 544 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 1: humans in full size mazes with consent of course, to 545 00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:19,760 Speaker 1: study their behavior. But anyway, this huge surge in maze 546 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 1: research lead to regimes that meant a researcher could make 547 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:27,760 Speaker 1: a claim like the one Tolman made in nineteen thirty seven, 548 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 1: the idea that basically all you need to study psychology 549 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,120 Speaker 1: is some rats in a maze. And he could say 550 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:37,840 Speaker 1: that and still be taken seriously. Uh. Tolman's assertion, of course, 551 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:41,080 Speaker 1: seems again ridiculous on its face today, but maze research 552 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 1: does still remain very important, especially in narrower domains like 553 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:49,920 Speaker 1: animal motor behavior, problem solving, spatial memory and things like that. 554 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,480 Speaker 1: And mazes are used in studying the effects of particular 555 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:56,040 Speaker 1: drugs on behavior, So like you could say, does this 556 00:31:56,120 --> 00:32:00,040 Speaker 1: anti anxiety drug cause a rat or a crayfish to 557 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 1: take one path or the other rather than you know, 558 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 1: freezing paralyzed t junction? Or does a drug promote obsessive 559 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 1: recurring checks of the same path and things like that. Now, 560 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:13,880 Speaker 1: and looking at what kind of maze research is going 561 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 1: on today, I came across one thing that I that 562 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:22,400 Speaker 1: I was thoroughly amazed by and very disturbed by, which 563 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:26,240 Speaker 1: is this invention known as automated team mazes. I guess 564 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:28,960 Speaker 1: there's actually nothing more nefarious about this than there is 565 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:33,000 Speaker 1: about a regular maze for for research, but watching video 566 00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:36,360 Speaker 1: of it somehow kind of bothered me. Basically, and Automated 567 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 1: Team Maze is a robot maze with movable walls that 568 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:42,400 Speaker 1: can be raised and lowered to alter the maze path 569 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:46,560 Speaker 1: as the animal proceeds. And I don't know, it feels 570 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:49,120 Speaker 1: very house of leaves to me. Yeah, I don't think 571 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:50,960 Speaker 1: we we brought up a house of leaves yet, by 572 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:54,080 Speaker 1: the way, but that is a great use of a 573 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,920 Speaker 1: maze and a minute our uh in uh is a 574 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:00,760 Speaker 1: literary example. I'm actually in the middle of reading it 575 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:03,680 Speaker 1: right now for the first time, so I haven't finished yet. 576 00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:06,440 Speaker 1: I don't want to spoil too much for people, but yeah, 577 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 1: the middle of that book is a good place to 578 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:12,080 Speaker 1: be because the book is is intentionally quite intentionally is 579 00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:14,920 Speaker 1: a labyrinth, and you are supposed to, I think, feel 580 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:19,120 Speaker 1: to a certain extent lost within it and hunted within it. Uh. 581 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,160 Speaker 1: It's one of the more unnerving things I think I've read, 582 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:26,760 Speaker 1: and you know, over the past ten years, extremely creepy 583 00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:30,360 Speaker 1: now in terms of labyrinths that change and move around you. 584 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:33,840 Speaker 1: First of all, I think datals would be proud like 585 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:37,240 Speaker 1: this is exactly the sort of thing that you can imagine. Uh, 586 00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:40,160 Speaker 1: you know, they're the great inventor having created. It also 587 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,360 Speaker 1: reminds me of of the wonderful cinematic maze that we 588 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:47,560 Speaker 1: find in Jim Henson's Labyrinth. Uh. There in the early 589 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:50,480 Speaker 1: phases of that they go through to you know, Sarah 590 00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:52,760 Speaker 1: goes through different parts of the Labyrinth to try to 591 00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:56,040 Speaker 1: get to the Goblin city to rescue her brother, but 592 00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:59,360 Speaker 1: there's a There's one section in particular where she begins 593 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,760 Speaker 1: to realize is that she can't mark the path behind 594 00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:07,240 Speaker 1: her because the path keeps changing. Goblins keep moving things around, 595 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:11,600 Speaker 1: moving stones that she's marked, or even just seemingly magically, 596 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,480 Speaker 1: she'll turn around and what was once a passage is 597 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:18,160 Speaker 1: now just a blank wall. I recall this being a 598 00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:22,000 Speaker 1: plot point in the movie Cube as well. Oh yes, 599 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:24,879 Speaker 1: the very very Cube like as well this video. There's 600 00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:27,440 Speaker 1: no minotaur in Cube, but that should have been well 601 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:28,880 Speaker 1: in a way, there are a lot of all the 602 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:32,040 Speaker 1: traps are kind of like many minotaurs. There are killing instruments, 603 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:33,920 Speaker 1: and again coming back to the idea that the minotaur 604 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:37,120 Speaker 1: is sort of the kill function of the Labyrinth. Uh, 605 00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:39,440 Speaker 1: it just has a lot of little kill functions instead 606 00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:44,279 Speaker 1: of one great all encompass and kill function. I want 607 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:47,000 Speaker 1: to come back and say, I, in all honesty, I 608 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:50,799 Speaker 1: don't want to throw aspersions on an automated teammates, which 609 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:54,000 Speaker 1: seems like a perfectly useful research tool. Uh. It seems 610 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:57,040 Speaker 1: like they're actually mainly to automatically track data on the 611 00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:59,399 Speaker 1: movements of the animals, so it it makes the human 612 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:03,520 Speaker 1: rat runn obsolete very useful. But before we move on 613 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:05,680 Speaker 1: from rats and mazes, I wanted to talk about one 614 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:08,759 Speaker 1: more thing that I found interesting, and it ties into 615 00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:12,200 Speaker 1: something I know you've covered on at least one older episode, 616 00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:15,600 Speaker 1: uh Rob, which was the idea of cargo cult science 617 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:18,799 Speaker 1: that was explored in this famous talk given by the 618 00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:22,120 Speaker 1: physicist Richard Feynman in nineteen seventy four. He was giving 619 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:25,600 Speaker 1: a commencement address to cal Tech. I guess it was 620 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:29,080 Speaker 1: the graduating class or something, and that's usually who would 621 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:32,520 Speaker 1: be at a commencement address, why, I said, probably uh, 622 00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:36,160 Speaker 1: And he was, you know, talking about various subjects, pseudo science, 623 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:40,800 Speaker 1: the need for rigor and in designing experiments, scientific research 624 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:43,719 Speaker 1: and uh. And so in simple terms, I think the 625 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:47,480 Speaker 1: idea of cargo cult science is it's a bad form 626 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:52,520 Speaker 1: of science where uh, there is not enough rigorous effort 627 00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:58,200 Speaker 1: devoted to trying to disprove hypotheses. Rather every basically you 628 00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:01,120 Speaker 1: just kind of established a hypoth is based on what 629 00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:05,440 Speaker 1: data you've already collected, and then further occurrences of the 630 00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:09,839 Speaker 1: same types of data are taken as confirmation of the hypothesis. So, 631 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:12,759 Speaker 1: for an example, I'm just making this up. If you 632 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:15,640 Speaker 1: were to find that rats run mazes faster in the 633 00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:19,000 Speaker 1: daytime than they do in the nighttime, and then you say, oh, 634 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:22,000 Speaker 1: I'm gonna fit a hypothesis to that, it's because they 635 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:25,520 Speaker 1: come from the planet Crypton and are given extra strength 636 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:28,239 Speaker 1: by the rays of our yellow sun during the day. 637 00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:32,600 Speaker 1: And then subsequent studies finding yet again that rats run 638 00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:35,920 Speaker 1: mazes faster in the daytime than than in the nighttime, 639 00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:39,200 Speaker 1: those are taking as confirmation of the yellow sun hypothesis 640 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:42,920 Speaker 1: when they don't actually provide any support for that at all. So, 641 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:46,120 Speaker 1: in general, Fineman in the speech is advocating that researchers 642 00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:49,960 Speaker 1: adhere to more rigorous methods to rule out false positives 643 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:53,440 Speaker 1: and things like that, and and they avoid the temptation 644 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:57,879 Speaker 1: to rush to publish with sloppy experimental designs, and so 645 00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:00,000 Speaker 1: I can read from the part of his speech here 646 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:04,440 Speaker 1: where he talks about rats and mazes. He uh, he says, quote. 647 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:07,720 Speaker 1: There have been many experiments running rats through all kinds 648 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,759 Speaker 1: of mazes and so on, with little clear result. But 649 00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:13,480 Speaker 1: in nineteen thirty seven a man named Young did a 650 00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:17,160 Speaker 1: very interesting one. He had a long corridor with doors 651 00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:20,200 Speaker 1: all along one side where the rats came in, and 652 00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:23,080 Speaker 1: doors along the other side where the food was. He 653 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:25,279 Speaker 1: wanted to see if he could train the rats to 654 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:28,319 Speaker 1: go in at the third door down from wherever he 655 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,320 Speaker 1: started them off. So what he's looking for is a 656 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:35,880 Speaker 1: spatial relationship between the entrance door and the food reward door. 657 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:39,880 Speaker 1: Will they learn that inference? Uh? And fine man continues, No, 658 00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:42,880 Speaker 1: the rats went immediately to the door where the food 659 00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:47,080 Speaker 1: had been the time before. The question was, how did 660 00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:50,800 Speaker 1: the rats know because the corridor was so beautifully built 661 00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:54,040 Speaker 1: and so uniform that this was the same door as before. 662 00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:57,320 Speaker 1: Obviously there was something about the door that was different 663 00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:01,160 Speaker 1: from the other doors. So he painted the door very carefully, 664 00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:04,320 Speaker 1: arranging the textures on the faces of the doors exactly 665 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:07,760 Speaker 1: the same. Still the rats could tell. Then he thought 666 00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:10,640 Speaker 1: maybe the rats were smelling the food, so he used 667 00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:14,239 Speaker 1: chemicals to change the smell after each run. Still the 668 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:17,319 Speaker 1: rats could tell. Then he realized the rats might be 669 00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:20,040 Speaker 1: able to tell by seeing the lights and the arrangement 670 00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:23,319 Speaker 1: in the laboratory like any common sense person, So he 671 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:27,040 Speaker 1: covered the corridor, and still the rats could tell. He 672 00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:29,279 Speaker 1: finally found that they could tell by the way the 673 00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:32,359 Speaker 1: floor sounded when they ran over it, and he could 674 00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:35,640 Speaker 1: only fix that by putting his corridor in sand. So 675 00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:39,560 Speaker 1: he covered one after another of all possible clues and 676 00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:42,160 Speaker 1: finally was able to fool the rats, so they had 677 00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:45,040 Speaker 1: to learn to go in the third door. If he 678 00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:48,520 Speaker 1: relaxed any of his conditions, the rats could tell. Now, 679 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:52,400 Speaker 1: from a scientific standpoint, this is an a number one experiment. 680 00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:56,719 Speaker 1: That is the experiment that makes rat running experiments sensible 681 00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:59,800 Speaker 1: because it uncovers the clues that the rat is really 682 00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:03,239 Speaker 1: using and not what you think it's using. And that 683 00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:06,200 Speaker 1: is the experiment that tells exactly what conditions you have 684 00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:09,240 Speaker 1: to use in order to be careful and control everything 685 00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:12,600 Speaker 1: in an experiment with rat running. I looked into the 686 00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:16,360 Speaker 1: subsequent history of this research. The subsequent experiment and the 687 00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:19,640 Speaker 1: one after that never referred to Mr. Young. They never 688 00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:22,440 Speaker 1: used any of his criteria of putting the corridor on 689 00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:25,759 Speaker 1: sand or being very careful. They just went right on 690 00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:28,160 Speaker 1: running rats in the same old way and paid no 691 00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:30,960 Speaker 1: attention to the great discoveries of Mr. Young, and his 692 00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:34,200 Speaker 1: papers are not referred to because he didn't discover anything 693 00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:38,080 Speaker 1: about the rats. In fact, he discovered all the things 694 00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:42,920 Speaker 1: you have to do to decipher something about rats. But 695 00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:46,600 Speaker 1: not paying attention to experiments like that is a characteristic 696 00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:49,960 Speaker 1: of cargo cult science. Now, just as a follow up, 697 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:53,359 Speaker 1: I was reading an article by Ross Pomeroy on Real 698 00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:56,760 Speaker 1: Clear Science that was about this story that Feineman tells 699 00:39:56,760 --> 00:40:00,840 Speaker 1: trying to identify who this unsided researcher was. Uh, the 700 00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:03,480 Speaker 1: author of this article, Pomeroy, he thinks that this is 701 00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:07,400 Speaker 1: probably referring to the animal scientist Paul Thomas Young, but 702 00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:10,560 Speaker 1: it's not known for sure who Fineman is referring to. 703 00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:12,920 Speaker 1: If we take Fineman's word that you know, he was 704 00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:16,919 Speaker 1: familiar with this unpublished research and stuff. Uh, It's it's 705 00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:18,920 Speaker 1: very sad that this went forward, but it's such a 706 00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:22,400 Speaker 1: wonderful illustration of how difficult and tedious it can be 707 00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:25,760 Speaker 1: just to get to the point where you can start 708 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:30,320 Speaker 1: to establish conclusions in animal research. I also love in 709 00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:32,560 Speaker 1: in Froneman's writings here that you you also get the 710 00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:36,279 Speaker 1: sense of the the construction of a maze, you know, 711 00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:39,520 Speaker 1: like this the thing that is that is just there 712 00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:43,520 Speaker 1: to confuse and and and provides no clear solutions to 713 00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:46,360 Speaker 1: itself or to the world. Well, yeah, it's really funny 714 00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:50,440 Speaker 1: because he is so designed. It highlights how designing amaze 715 00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:53,879 Speaker 1: for a rat is kind of different than designing a 716 00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:58,480 Speaker 1: maze for a human, right because rats, uh might, because 717 00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:02,239 Speaker 1: of their their ecological niche, they might have senses that 718 00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:06,719 Speaker 1: are attuned to things that humans wouldn't even imagine would 719 00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:09,560 Speaker 1: be a useful clue in in you know, cheating and 720 00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:14,200 Speaker 1: seeing through the confusion that the maze is supposed to provide. Yeah, yeah, 721 00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:18,239 Speaker 1: we have to remember that that rats, other organisms that 722 00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:20,040 Speaker 1: we might put in a maze, they live in a 723 00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:23,680 Speaker 1: different sense realm than we do. Like their dependence on 724 00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:26,719 Speaker 1: you know, site versus smell, etcetera. Are going to be 725 00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:28,759 Speaker 1: rather different than ours. And then they're you know, they're 726 00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:31,880 Speaker 1: there's their smell abilities are going to beyond, be beyond 727 00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:34,839 Speaker 1: what we have at our disposal. Maybe I'm reaching here, 728 00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:38,800 Speaker 1: but I was imagining some interesting parallels here between the 729 00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:42,719 Speaker 1: maze as a psychological research instrument and the maze of 730 00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:45,920 Speaker 1: myth because what they're doing in both cases is trying 731 00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:50,960 Speaker 1: to strip away extraneous detail and context from from the 732 00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:54,319 Speaker 1: decision of the character, whether that's a an animal that's 733 00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:57,440 Speaker 1: the subject of research or character in a story and 734 00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:01,319 Speaker 1: just sort of like isolate one, say, aliant trait at 735 00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:03,759 Speaker 1: a time that that's often what mythology does, like it 736 00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:08,160 Speaker 1: boils down a human too courage embodied and has no 737 00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:12,920 Speaker 1: other really identifiable human traits in that moment in the story. 738 00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:14,840 Speaker 1: And the same thing for the rat. You're trying to 739 00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:17,840 Speaker 1: like take away all of the things that make a 740 00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:21,600 Speaker 1: rat a rat, accept its ability to decide between X 741 00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:25,680 Speaker 1: and Y based on Z. Yeah. Yeah, that's a great point. 742 00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:28,479 Speaker 1: So I guess it doesn't exactly work with theseus because 743 00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:31,919 Speaker 1: theseus does bring bring context from the outside world into 744 00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:34,640 Speaker 1: the maze. Right. He comes in armed with tools and 745 00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:38,239 Speaker 1: with information that he technically should not have if this 746 00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:40,799 Speaker 1: were a fair fight. Right, right, he has he has 747 00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:43,879 Speaker 1: broken the game. Yeah, he has corrupted the experiment. These 748 00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:46,839 Speaker 1: are not legitimate results, all right. On that note, we're 749 00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:48,839 Speaker 1: going to take one more break, but we'll be right back. 750 00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:55,080 Speaker 1: Than alright, we're back. Uh now, Robert, is it time 751 00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:59,520 Speaker 1: to talk about the minotaur and zoonotic diseases? Yes, it is. 752 00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:02,440 Speaker 1: I was actually delighted to run to run across this 753 00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:06,359 Speaker 1: paper titled Europe The Bull and the Minotaur The Biological 754 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:11,360 Speaker 1: Legacy of a Neolithic love Story. This is by Harold Brusso, 755 00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:15,720 Speaker 1: published in the journal Environmental Microbiology back in two thousand 756 00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:20,600 Speaker 1: and nine. Now, Harold Brusso is a research scientist and 757 00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:23,000 Speaker 1: he's the author of the book The Quest for Food 758 00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:26,560 Speaker 1: and Natural History of Eating, And incidentally he's also an 759 00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:31,000 Speaker 1: author on several COVID nineteen papers to come out this year. Yeah, 760 00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:32,919 Speaker 1: I saw that. I looked about it looks like he's 761 00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:37,480 Speaker 1: affiliated with the Nestly Research Center in Switzerland and uh 762 00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:39,600 Speaker 1: and at some point I think I also saw him 763 00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:42,359 Speaker 1: affiliated with the University of Geneva, but the main things 764 00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:45,959 Speaker 1: I saw recently were the Nestly Research Center. I gotta 765 00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:50,360 Speaker 1: say he's got a very unusual writing style for scientific papers. 766 00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:54,640 Speaker 1: It's very whimsical. Yes, definitely whimsical. Um and you get 767 00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:56,480 Speaker 1: a sense of that from the title here as well. 768 00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:01,120 Speaker 1: Basically in this article Brusso used is the Minotaur myth 769 00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:04,759 Speaker 1: as a means of discussing the Neolithic Revolution and the 770 00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:08,680 Speaker 1: manner in which the domestication of goats and cattle, etcetera 771 00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:12,480 Speaker 1: opened the door for new pathogens. As he points out, 772 00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:17,000 Speaker 1: hunters only had limited contact with prey and most close 773 00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:20,279 Speaker 1: contact occurred after the animal's death. Not to say this 774 00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:24,480 Speaker 1: is safe for the human hunter, but quote all the 775 00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:28,760 Speaker 1: mechanisms which microbes induced in the infected host to assure 776 00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:33,200 Speaker 1: their transmission, like sneezing, coughing, or diarrhea, are not any 777 00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:37,200 Speaker 1: longer operative in the dead animal. Okay, So he's saying that, 778 00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:40,200 Speaker 1: And despite the fact that people who hunted for a 779 00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:43,000 Speaker 1: living would be coming in contact with animals and their 780 00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:48,000 Speaker 1: body fluids pretty often, people who do animal agriculture are 781 00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:52,600 Speaker 1: actually more at risk for animal transmitted diseases than hunters are, 782 00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:56,480 Speaker 1: right because suddenly you're not just hunting the animal down, 783 00:44:57,160 --> 00:45:00,160 Speaker 1: killing it process and then processing it, which in a 784 00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:02,440 Speaker 1: certainly process of the animal could come with some risks, 785 00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:04,880 Speaker 1: but it's one's dead, it's not going to sneeze on you. 786 00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:09,399 Speaker 1: But with the domestication, humans come into close contact with 787 00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:11,680 Speaker 1: these animals all the time. They come into clause contact 788 00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:15,759 Speaker 1: with sick animals as well as the animals dung, which 789 00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:19,760 Speaker 1: was valuable for fuel and fertilizer. Uh and also another 790 00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:22,640 Speaker 1: pathway for disease. And you're going to be spending time. 791 00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:25,400 Speaker 1: I mean, I just imagine there's more time with the animal. 792 00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:27,839 Speaker 1: Like you kill an animal when you're hunting, and then 793 00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:29,839 Speaker 1: you kind of deal with it. But like, but that's 794 00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:32,200 Speaker 1: one animal for a sort of limited period of time. 795 00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:34,839 Speaker 1: While you're processing it or carrying it back to home 796 00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:37,440 Speaker 1: or wherever this other thing would be, you're just sort 797 00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:40,880 Speaker 1: of like wandering around with herds of sheep or cows 798 00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:42,879 Speaker 1: or something all day and there's a bunch of them 799 00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:46,480 Speaker 1: all crammed together, right, And and thus he states that 800 00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:49,319 Speaker 1: you know, we can we can safely anticipate quote that 801 00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:53,359 Speaker 1: the early farming society was plagued by new diseases zoonosis 802 00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:57,319 Speaker 1: was feeding new pathogens into the human population. Yeah, that's 803 00:45:57,400 --> 00:46:00,280 Speaker 1: very interesting to consider. I mean, we we think about 804 00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:04,120 Speaker 1: the advent of agriculture in in the Neolithic period as 805 00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:07,239 Speaker 1: you know, one of the progenitors of civilization, but we 806 00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:10,520 Speaker 1: don't often imagine a lot of the downsides that might 807 00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:12,600 Speaker 1: have come along with it, and it seems quite possible 808 00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:16,640 Speaker 1: that he's correct that zoonotic diseases and increase in diseases 809 00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:21,440 Speaker 1: transmitted from animals to humans would be one of those consequences. Yeah, 810 00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:25,640 Speaker 1: so he writes that humanities growth simply created new opportunities 811 00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:29,720 Speaker 1: for these microbes, which in turn discovered humans as quote 812 00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:34,160 Speaker 1: an attractive life support. Um. Now, this, he says, follows 813 00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:37,520 Speaker 1: the principle of the marine microbiologists call killing off the 814 00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:41,120 Speaker 1: winning population. So he points out that the viruses had 815 00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:45,200 Speaker 1: co evolved with their host during evolution, we would expect 816 00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:50,040 Speaker 1: the closest relatives of measles viruses in paramixo viruses of 817 00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:54,520 Speaker 1: primates instead. However, the most important human pathogens, such as 818 00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:59,240 Speaker 1: highly transmissible agents like measles and smallpox, are closely related 819 00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:05,080 Speaker 1: to viruses from domesticated animals. Measles, for instance, circulates exclusively 820 00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:08,600 Speaker 1: in the human population, but is a close relative of 821 00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:12,560 Speaker 1: render pest virus that is found in cattle. And of course, 822 00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:15,759 Speaker 1: this uh is not limited just to ancient times. I mean, 823 00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:22,160 Speaker 1: human viruses emerging from cultivated animal stocks still happens today. 824 00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:24,840 Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's pretty common for flu strains 825 00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:27,000 Speaker 1: to come out of say like pigs or birds that 826 00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:30,360 Speaker 1: are domesticated by humans now. Bruso also points out that 827 00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:34,320 Speaker 1: the close relationship between smallpox and cow pox was actually 828 00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:38,480 Speaker 1: really important for the history of vaccination. Physician Edward Jenner 829 00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:42,320 Speaker 1: noticed that milkmaids who had acquired cow pox were resistant 830 00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:45,920 Speaker 1: to smallpox. He also points out that tuberculosis is caused 831 00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:52,880 Speaker 1: by the Microbacterium tuberculosis complex, to which M. Bovis belongs. 832 00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:56,400 Speaker 1: Any lists several other examples and also discusses the idea 833 00:47:56,480 --> 00:48:00,400 Speaker 1: popularized by Jared Diamond and Guns, Germs and Steel that 834 00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:05,279 Speaker 1: Europeans brought with them their Old World viruses which they had, 835 00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:10,160 Speaker 1: which they had generated out of their history of animal domestication, 836 00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:16,040 Speaker 1: all this time spent in close confines with their domesticated species. Now, 837 00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:18,520 Speaker 1: I will say, with reference to Diamond, Uh, it's been 838 00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:20,560 Speaker 1: a long time since I read that book. Years ago 839 00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:23,360 Speaker 1: I read Guns, Terms and Steel. Uh. I can tell 840 00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:26,120 Speaker 1: that he Diamond has recently been subject to a lot 841 00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:30,160 Speaker 1: of criticism by experts in the fields. He covers. Uh. 842 00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:32,880 Speaker 1: If so, I don't know, I don't want to be 843 00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:34,759 Speaker 1: too unfair, but it seems like there are a lot 844 00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:37,279 Speaker 1: of allegations of kind of cherry picking the thing that 845 00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:41,440 Speaker 1: often happens when somebody's got a very broad, sweeping explanation 846 00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:44,080 Speaker 1: of history. Um, but I do think one of the 847 00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:47,120 Speaker 1: basic genres of things explored in that book is interesting, 848 00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:50,440 Speaker 1: which is the broad thrust of it is trying to 849 00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:55,760 Speaker 1: explain human history in terms of environmental biogeography, So showing 850 00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:58,880 Speaker 1: that you know what people's come to power at what 851 00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:01,360 Speaker 1: place in time, and at least in large part be 852 00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:07,280 Speaker 1: explained by often otherwise overlooked environmental biological and geographical factors 853 00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:10,200 Speaker 1: such as like what types of crops grow here, or 854 00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:13,359 Speaker 1: what types of animals nearby could be domesticated, what kinds 855 00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:16,799 Speaker 1: of pathogens or people exposed to and things like that. 856 00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:19,880 Speaker 1: So uh So, whatever one would think of Diamond himself 857 00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:22,520 Speaker 1: or or his fuller argument, I do think it's important 858 00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:24,680 Speaker 1: to remember that history is not just a battle of 859 00:49:24,719 --> 00:49:29,400 Speaker 1: wills and virtues between like powerful individual people and their personalities. 860 00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:33,200 Speaker 1: It's also very much about mosquitoes and rainfall patterns and 861 00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:36,440 Speaker 1: farming equipment and stuff like that. Now, to come back 862 00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:39,600 Speaker 1: to to Bruso here, the idea that he's presenting here 863 00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:43,759 Speaker 1: isn't that the Neolithic door opens and immediately all of 864 00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:47,480 Speaker 1: these zoonotic diseases rush in um. This would have taken 865 00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:50,279 Speaker 1: place over in a long period of time. Uh. It 866 00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:54,200 Speaker 1: still opens the door though, But sometimes the these these 867 00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:58,480 Speaker 1: basically these zoonotic events are going to occur just throughout 868 00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:02,680 Speaker 1: that the history that I'm folds. For example, measles seems 869 00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:06,760 Speaker 1: to have emerged from render past between c. E eleven 870 00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:09,680 Speaker 1: hundred and c E twelve hundred, and is pointed out 871 00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:12,960 Speaker 1: by Ferous at All in Origin of Measles of the 872 00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:17,480 Speaker 1: measles virus UH. Divergence from render pest virus between likely 873 00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:20,160 Speaker 1: occurred between the eleventh and twelve centuries. That was in 874 00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:23,879 Speaker 1: Virology Journal in two thousand ten. UH. And they were 875 00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:28,200 Speaker 1: likely limited outbreaks prior to this, when the pathogen wasn't 876 00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:31,359 Speaker 1: fully adapted to humans yet. And then Bruso also points 877 00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:34,319 Speaker 1: out that there were population issues to consider as well. Um, 878 00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:37,640 Speaker 1: you know, as the duration of epidemics are influenced by 879 00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:41,360 Speaker 1: population density. So again, not only you know, in the 880 00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:44,000 Speaker 1: wake of the you know, the Neolithic Revolution, we get 881 00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:46,800 Speaker 1: to the point where we are we are building cities, 882 00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:49,080 Speaker 1: we are living in closer confines to each other, and 883 00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:53,960 Speaker 1: we're creating not only the the environments in which a 884 00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:57,720 Speaker 1: pathogen could leap from one species to another, but also 885 00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:02,520 Speaker 1: these robust environments in which a pathogen could then spread, 886 00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:06,719 Speaker 1: you know, massively through a larger human population. Yeah, this 887 00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:09,960 Speaker 1: is all interesting and important to consider. So I'm wondering, 888 00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:13,160 Speaker 1: where does the minotaur come in. Ah, Yes, the minotaur. 889 00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:15,719 Speaker 1: Uh so there is a minotaur in all of this 890 00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:18,880 Speaker 1: um and uh. And he sets it up right rather nicely. 891 00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:22,640 Speaker 1: I think he says, generations of poets, philosophers, and psychologists 892 00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:26,640 Speaker 1: have interpreted and reinterpreted ancient Greek myths. I will thus 893 00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:30,400 Speaker 1: take the liberty to add a biological interpretation to this 894 00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:33,680 Speaker 1: strange story. So, you know, I think he's being very 895 00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:35,920 Speaker 1: clear about the fact that he's not making an argument 896 00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:41,400 Speaker 1: that the minotaur is about um zoonotic diseases. But he's saying, 897 00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:43,719 Speaker 1: I'm going to take the minotaur and it's a myth, 898 00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:46,120 Speaker 1: and I am going to use it to make a 899 00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:50,200 Speaker 1: statement about about this, to to explain something or attempt 900 00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:54,839 Speaker 1: to explain something about this relationship between animals, humans and 901 00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:57,600 Speaker 1: their pathogens. Okay, so it's not like there's actually a 902 00:51:57,600 --> 00:52:01,880 Speaker 1: good case that zoonotic diseases are literally the historical inspiration 903 00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:04,480 Speaker 1: of the minotaur myth, but it does work pretty amazingly 904 00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:07,000 Speaker 1: as a metaphor. Yeah, he does a great job with it. Again, 905 00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:09,800 Speaker 1: he's a kind of kind of a whimsical writer, especially 906 00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:12,360 Speaker 1: in this piece. Okay, let's hear it so point he 907 00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:14,880 Speaker 1: he you know, relates the minotar myth a bit, but 908 00:52:15,080 --> 00:52:18,160 Speaker 1: points not only to the minotaur but also to uh, 909 00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:20,520 Speaker 1: you know, the myth of Zeus in his bull form, 910 00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:25,279 Speaker 1: seducing the Princess Europa or Europe and taking her to 911 00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:28,480 Speaker 1: creet where he impregnates her with three sons. One of 912 00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:33,040 Speaker 1: those three sons is Minos. Uh. Europe's brothers then search 913 00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:36,880 Speaker 1: the known world for her and uh. And then Brusso 914 00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:40,800 Speaker 1: writes this quote. The paths of Europe's brothers recall partly 915 00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:44,320 Speaker 1: the migrations of the early farmers from the Near East 916 00:52:44,360 --> 00:52:49,200 Speaker 1: into Europe and North Africa, partly Phoenician colonization. The too 917 00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:52,799 Speaker 1: close relationship of Mino's wife with a bull leads to 918 00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:56,480 Speaker 1: a children eating chimera, stretching a bit of the fantasy. 919 00:52:56,560 --> 00:53:00,160 Speaker 1: I would interpret this monster as the species crossing virulus, 920 00:53:00,560 --> 00:53:04,400 Speaker 1: derived from the new close contact between cattle and farmer. 921 00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:07,960 Speaker 1: The labyrinth might be a type of quarantine imposed on 922 00:53:08,120 --> 00:53:12,400 Speaker 1: infected subjects. Sir Evans, the excavator of the minoah Crete, 923 00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:16,680 Speaker 1: suggests that it reflects the plan of the Royal Palace innsis. 924 00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:21,319 Speaker 1: Some viruses are bovine human cameras like Minotaur, which both 925 00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:24,160 Speaker 1: ate the young children of the earlier inhabitants of Europe. 926 00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:27,680 Speaker 1: This myth might thus keep the memory of the hardship 927 00:53:27,760 --> 00:53:31,200 Speaker 1: following the encounter of the cattle farmers with the hunter 928 00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:35,000 Speaker 1: gatherers of prehistoric Europe. And then the rest of the 929 00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:38,480 Speaker 1: article deals primarily with examples of this and discussions of 930 00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:41,800 Speaker 1: its import. That's great, I mean, I would say to reiterate, 931 00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:44,680 Speaker 1: of course, I'm not convinced, and I don't think he's 932 00:53:44,719 --> 00:53:47,680 Speaker 1: necessarily making the case that actually this was the literal 933 00:53:47,719 --> 00:53:50,240 Speaker 1: inspiration of the myth, But it is a really awesome 934 00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:54,000 Speaker 1: metaphor the idea that the introduction of domesticated livestock such 935 00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:57,080 Speaker 1: as cattle and sheep and stuff into the lives of 936 00:53:57,160 --> 00:54:00,719 Speaker 1: humans would have these echoes throughout his story that have 937 00:54:00,880 --> 00:54:05,279 Speaker 1: biological implications. In the myth, they are the biological implications 938 00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:09,560 Speaker 1: of creating a hybrid monster. In reality, the biological implications 939 00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:13,080 Speaker 1: are creating these zoonotic diseases that are in a way 940 00:54:13,080 --> 00:54:15,840 Speaker 1: a hybrid type being because they jump from one species 941 00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:18,959 Speaker 1: to another when you're living in close contact long enough. 942 00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:22,560 Speaker 1: And even though the inspiration of the myth is probably 943 00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:24,719 Speaker 1: not direct in any way, I mean, I do wonder 944 00:54:24,760 --> 00:54:29,239 Speaker 1: about a kind of loose, un semi conscious connection in that, Like, 945 00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:33,120 Speaker 1: isn't there always a sort of quiet, wordless unease about 946 00:54:33,239 --> 00:54:36,280 Speaker 1: civilization and its products? And it just shows up again 947 00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:40,760 Speaker 1: and again every generation, even while we enjoy the fruits 948 00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:44,680 Speaker 1: of civilization, like we enjoy the stability of food supply 949 00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:47,960 Speaker 1: and the opportunity for the diversification of labor and all 950 00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:50,000 Speaker 1: of that, all the stuff we get from a settled 951 00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:54,759 Speaker 1: urban existence, from agriculture, from technology and so forth, isn't 952 00:54:54,800 --> 00:54:58,000 Speaker 1: there in every generation a new expression of the feeling 953 00:54:58,040 --> 00:55:01,000 Speaker 1: that something is kind of wrong with all this, that 954 00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:06,239 Speaker 1: there it is somehow perverted or dangerous, even monstrous, and 955 00:55:06,239 --> 00:55:09,279 Speaker 1: that people should somehow get back to nature in one 956 00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:13,759 Speaker 1: way or another. Some version of this philosophy is always there. 957 00:55:13,880 --> 00:55:16,040 Speaker 1: It seems like, yeah, I mean, really, to come back 958 00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:19,000 Speaker 1: to the the idea of the labyrinth itself and and 959 00:55:19,120 --> 00:55:21,719 Speaker 1: the other creations of datalists, there's this ide. You know, 960 00:55:22,040 --> 00:55:25,279 Speaker 1: there's so much of that science fictional energy, that anxiety 961 00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:29,640 Speaker 1: concerning technology. Uh in this figure. You know, what if 962 00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:32,719 Speaker 1: we created something that lifted us up on high but 963 00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:36,880 Speaker 1: also lead to our destruction? Uh? What if we created 964 00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:41,600 Speaker 1: something so elegantly designed that it was too confusing for 965 00:55:41,800 --> 00:55:44,880 Speaker 1: even its creator to escape that sort of thing? Yes, totally. 966 00:55:45,239 --> 00:55:47,120 Speaker 1: I mean you can look at a million different kinds 967 00:55:47,120 --> 00:55:50,200 Speaker 1: of technology as essentially the labyrinth, the thing that becomes 968 00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:54,399 Speaker 1: so complicated it escapes the intentions of its creator. And 969 00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:57,319 Speaker 1: uh yeah, I mean an obvious place to look at 970 00:55:57,360 --> 00:56:00,080 Speaker 1: that would be artificial intelligence. I mean, people off and 971 00:56:00,239 --> 00:56:03,560 Speaker 1: use the people often use the metaphor of Pandora's box. 972 00:56:03,600 --> 00:56:05,600 Speaker 1: They're like, are you opening the box? Who knows what 973 00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:07,880 Speaker 1: what will come out? But the labyrinth is also a 974 00:56:07,880 --> 00:56:11,200 Speaker 1: pretty good metaphor for for what's happening with AI. Yeah. 975 00:56:11,360 --> 00:56:13,759 Speaker 1: And and there's always the concern that there will be 976 00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:16,239 Speaker 1: the minotaur within it as well, the thing that is 977 00:56:16,239 --> 00:56:20,640 Speaker 1: not just passively anti human but actively anti human. But 978 00:56:20,719 --> 00:56:22,560 Speaker 1: I mean it's easy to imagine that kind of thing 979 00:56:22,600 --> 00:56:25,839 Speaker 1: with AI, because at least AI reaches such a level 980 00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:28,720 Speaker 1: of complexity that you're imagining it almost as an agent 981 00:56:28,880 --> 00:56:31,960 Speaker 1: that you can't control. You know, I think you can 982 00:56:32,040 --> 00:56:36,640 Speaker 1: even apply this idea of our our perennial anxiety or 983 00:56:36,680 --> 00:56:42,040 Speaker 1: suspicions about the downsides of of civilization and it's technological 984 00:56:42,080 --> 00:56:47,160 Speaker 1: products um too too earlier innovations, even things as seemingly 985 00:56:47,239 --> 00:56:51,480 Speaker 1: simple as agriculture, because in fact agriculture comes with tons 986 00:56:51,640 --> 00:56:54,759 Speaker 1: of consequences that would not have been predicted by the 987 00:56:54,800 --> 00:56:58,520 Speaker 1: people who invented. It comes with risk of zoonotic diseases, 988 00:56:58,560 --> 00:57:01,960 Speaker 1: It comes with changes in diet and how that affects 989 00:57:02,040 --> 00:57:04,759 Speaker 1: human life, and a million other things. Oh yeah, I mean, 990 00:57:04,760 --> 00:57:08,000 Speaker 1: whereas many of the the catastrophic problems that we're dealing 991 00:57:08,040 --> 00:57:10,480 Speaker 1: with today in our world, are you know, the the 992 00:57:10,600 --> 00:57:14,160 Speaker 1: end results of this these initial revolutions. But you mentioned 993 00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:16,800 Speaker 1: Pandora's box earlier. So I want to come back just 994 00:57:16,880 --> 00:57:20,400 Speaker 1: one more time to Brusso here, because he has this 995 00:57:20,680 --> 00:57:24,040 Speaker 1: particularly haunting closing to the paper. And again this is 996 00:57:24,080 --> 00:57:27,120 Speaker 1: from two thousand nine, in which he considers how modern 997 00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:31,480 Speaker 1: global environmental changes will lead to another quote highly dynamic 998 00:57:31,520 --> 00:57:35,720 Speaker 1: phase of viral transmissions into the human population. He writes, 999 00:57:35,880 --> 00:57:39,680 Speaker 1: quote viruses must be the dark side of the heritage 1000 00:57:39,680 --> 00:57:43,360 Speaker 1: from the Neolithic Revolution to remain. With Greek myths, they 1001 00:57:43,440 --> 00:57:47,200 Speaker 1: might correspond to a half open Pandora's box, a poisoned 1002 00:57:47,280 --> 00:57:50,880 Speaker 1: gift of the bull god Zeus to mankind. Humans go 1003 00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:55,080 Speaker 1: now into a phase of globalization whose ecological impact might 1004 00:57:55,280 --> 00:57:59,320 Speaker 1: represent a full opening of this cursed box. Man is 1005 00:57:59,360 --> 00:58:03,360 Speaker 1: today a major evolutionary force, and we can safely anticipate 1006 00:58:03,440 --> 00:58:06,439 Speaker 1: that man made environmental changes will lead to a new 1007 00:58:06,520 --> 00:58:10,280 Speaker 1: deal in our relationship with microbes. When the diseases had 1008 00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:14,040 Speaker 1: left the box, the Greek myth told that only hope 1009 00:58:14,120 --> 00:58:17,480 Speaker 1: remained in the box. Today, we are probably better served 1010 00:58:17,480 --> 00:58:21,439 Speaker 1: with science as our best defense against surprise attacks from 1011 00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:26,040 Speaker 1: the viral Empire UH, than with the principal hope. Got 1012 00:58:26,080 --> 00:58:29,360 Speaker 1: some chills from that. I mean to say nothing against hope. 1013 00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:31,680 Speaker 1: I mean, hope is good, but don't show up with 1014 00:58:31,720 --> 00:58:34,040 Speaker 1: a hope to a science fight. Yeah, Or if you're 1015 00:58:34,040 --> 00:58:36,439 Speaker 1: gonna bring hope in one hand, bring science in the other. 1016 00:58:37,560 --> 00:58:40,040 Speaker 1: All right, So there you have it. This was episode 1017 00:58:40,120 --> 00:58:44,040 Speaker 1: three of our Journey through the Labyrinth, our consideration of 1018 00:58:44,080 --> 00:58:46,840 Speaker 1: the minotaur UH and the and the myth that it 1019 00:58:46,880 --> 00:58:50,320 Speaker 1: emerges out of the culture, It emerges out of the 1020 00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:53,720 Speaker 1: various ideas that it is still stirring and the human 1021 00:58:53,720 --> 00:58:57,040 Speaker 1: imagination today. Uh, this one is a lot of fun. Yeah, totally, 1022 00:58:57,440 --> 00:59:00,120 Speaker 1: And we have got so much more October stuff for you. 1023 00:59:00,440 --> 00:59:04,640 Speaker 1: We're busting it seems here. Yes, there's so yeah, we 1024 00:59:04,640 --> 00:59:06,560 Speaker 1: we've we've got We've got so many more ideas to go. 1025 00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:08,200 Speaker 1: I think we even still have a few ideas to 1026 00:59:08,200 --> 00:59:10,280 Speaker 1: come up with. But but it's gonna be a full 1027 00:59:10,320 --> 00:59:14,840 Speaker 1: month of of Halloween related wonder In the meantime, if 1028 00:59:14,840 --> 00:59:17,360 Speaker 1: you would like to check out other episodes of Stuff 1029 00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:18,840 Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind, if you want to catch up 1030 00:59:18,880 --> 00:59:23,280 Speaker 1: on our current Halloween offerings, uh, explore our past Halloween offerings, 1031 00:59:23,360 --> 00:59:26,280 Speaker 1: or some of our past myth related episodes, you know, 1032 00:59:26,320 --> 00:59:29,560 Speaker 1: such as our our study of the Medusa from earlier 1033 00:59:29,600 --> 00:59:33,120 Speaker 1: this year. Well, you can find this podcast wherever you 1034 00:59:33,160 --> 00:59:35,880 Speaker 1: get your podcasts and wherever that happens to be. We 1035 00:59:35,960 --> 00:59:39,120 Speaker 1: just ask that you rate, review, and subscribe. If you 1036 00:59:39,160 --> 00:59:41,240 Speaker 1: want to find us, like really quickly, you can just 1037 00:59:41,280 --> 00:59:43,080 Speaker 1: go to stuff to Blow your Mind dot com and 1038 00:59:43,080 --> 00:59:45,040 Speaker 1: that will take you to the I heart listening for 1039 00:59:45,080 --> 00:59:48,280 Speaker 1: this show. And if you do go there, there's a 1040 00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:50,440 Speaker 1: place you can click on somewhere on that page kind 1041 00:59:50,480 --> 00:59:53,520 Speaker 1: of a labyrinth. Uh. You can click on like store 1042 00:59:53,560 --> 00:59:55,800 Speaker 1: or merchandise or what have you. That'll take you to 1043 00:59:55,960 --> 00:59:58,080 Speaker 1: our our t shirt store where we have a few 1044 00:59:58,080 --> 01:00:01,320 Speaker 1: different designs with stuff like our logo, maybe a Medusa 1045 01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:04,400 Speaker 1: or to that sort of thing. Huge thanks, as always 1046 01:00:04,440 --> 01:00:07,560 Speaker 1: to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you 1047 01:00:07,560 --> 01:00:09,440 Speaker 1: would like to get in touch with us with feedback 1048 01:00:09,440 --> 01:00:11,680 Speaker 1: on this episode or any other, to suggest a topic 1049 01:00:11,760 --> 01:00:13,800 Speaker 1: for the future, or just to say hello, you can 1050 01:00:13,840 --> 01:00:16,560 Speaker 1: email us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind 1051 01:00:16,720 --> 01:00:26,800 Speaker 1: dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of 1052 01:00:26,840 --> 01:00:29,480 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my heart Radio, 1053 01:00:29,680 --> 01:00:32,360 Speaker 1: visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 1054 01:00:32,360 --> 01:00:42,440 Speaker 1: you're listening to your favorite shows.