1 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:08,799 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Serious x M Triumph 2 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: Channel one thirty two. Who killed Connie Debate? A pretty 3 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:17,400 Speaker 1: mom a beautiful home in a Connecticut suburb. Was Connie 4 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:20,079 Speaker 1: the victim of a home invasion, as her husband Rick claims? 5 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,119 Speaker 1: Or was she collateral damage in a love triangle? A 6 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:26,799 Speaker 1: security alarm went off, State police rushed inside, and that's 7 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 1: when they found Connie Debate in the basement, dead from 8 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,640 Speaker 1: multiple gunshot wounds. They find Rick tied to a folding 9 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: metal chair, moaning, telling cops quote they're still in the house. 10 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 1: Connie's husband, Rick is arrested. Debate is charged with murder, 11 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:43,839 Speaker 1: tampering with evidence, and making a false statement. Could the 12 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:46,840 Speaker 1: alleged motive be found in the revelation of a now 13 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:49,840 Speaker 1: admitted affair between Debate and an old high school friend. 14 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 1: He says he impregnated a marriage marked by secrets in lies. 15 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: What we know right now is that Connie Debate was 16 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:06,640 Speaker 1: found dead in her home. Her husband, Richard claims that 17 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:12,360 Speaker 1: a masked intruder m here we go with the masked 18 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 1: intruder breaks into their upscale Connecticut home and let's see, 19 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 1: how does he say this? He ties him Richard debate 20 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 1: to a chair. Ps. It was a folding chair and 21 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 1: when cops got there, he had one arm and one 22 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 1: leg tied to it. Okay, but for some reason they 23 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 1: didn't tie the wife to a chair. They decided to 24 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 1: chase her through the home and murder her. Now that 25 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 1: this is the problem, Richard. The husband calls the cops 26 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 1: and tells them everything that happened, and then cops get there, 27 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 1: they find the wife brutally murdered. No forced entry, no 28 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 1: burg re alarm goes off. I don't think anything was taken. 29 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 1: I guess they just broke in and committed murder and left, 30 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: you know, forget about the TV of the vc are 31 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 1: and the jury and the money. Just you know. Okay, 32 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:13,400 Speaker 1: that didn't work out, so they left, and they left 33 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:17,519 Speaker 1: a witness alive. Oh yes, I forgot one important fact. 34 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 1: Ninette Sosa joining me um. He claimed the mass intruders 35 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 1: sounded a lot like Van Diesel, So I'd like to 36 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 1: find out where Van Diesel was at this time. But 37 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 1: here's the problem, the fitbit. I'm Nancy Grace, this is 38 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:36,519 Speaker 1: Crime Stories. Thank you for being with me. Dr Daniel Bober, 39 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:41,520 Speaker 1: forensics psychiatrist, and M. D Ashley Wilcot, lawyer and well 40 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 1: known child advocate, Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert and professor 41 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 1: from a XIX at Jacksonville State University. Nanette Sosa Crime 42 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 1: Stories investigative reporter joining us. Nanette, what does a fitbit 43 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: have to do with Richard debates story two cops. Well, 44 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 1: the fifth it and it's actually referred to in some 45 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 1: phrases as the murder. The fact is that it shows 46 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 1: that she was active at the house, but it was 47 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 1: one hour after he said, I just hate when that happens, 48 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 1: Ashley Wilcott. His whole timeline is blown. So the cops 49 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 1: show up and he goes, yeah, yeah, they murdered her 50 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 1: like two hours ago. And I've been tied to this 51 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:29,239 Speaker 1: chair all this time and I just got loose and 52 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 1: called you, and then they find her fitbit. I don't 53 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 1: know how she did it. I don't know how Connie 54 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 1: did it. But after she was brutally murdered, she walked 55 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 1: around the house for about an hour and a half, 56 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 1: logging like what three or four thousand steps? How does 57 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 1: that work? Right? And this is one of the first 58 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 1: times you hear about publicly using a fitbit by criminal investigators. 59 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 1: What a great tool this has solved the murder mystery. 60 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 1: But it did in this case pretty pretty good investigation here. 61 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 1: And I just think he's an idiot. Let's be honest. 62 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 1: Not only is he a murder or, he's an idiot 63 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 1: when you look at his story, it doesn't make sense. 64 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 1: Late late one night in November, uh, Connie Debate was 65 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 1: texting her husband a photo of herself and some sexy 66 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 1: lingerie So obviously she had no idea that anything may 67 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 1: be wrong within the marriage. But one day before that, 68 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:30,280 Speaker 1: back to Ninette's so so Crime Stories investigative reporter, one 69 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:34,159 Speaker 1: day before the sexy lingerie photos she sends to her husband, 70 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 1: her husband, Richard Debate, was texting somebody else who the girlfriend, Nancy. 71 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:42,160 Speaker 1: He has a girlfriend. She's ten weeks pregnant. Oh no, 72 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 1: wait a minute, Wait a minute, Nette, Ninette, I know 73 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 1: that you're used to just rattling off the information and 74 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:50,159 Speaker 1: knowing every detail, but I gotta I gotta take this 75 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 1: in for a moment. Dr Daniel Bober with me. I 76 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 1: think I need to shrink. I'm pretty sure I just 77 00:04:56,160 --> 00:05:00,600 Speaker 1: heard Nanette Sosa say as his wife is sending him 78 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 1: photos of herself and sexy lingerie. He's texting his ten 79 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 1: week pregnant girlfriend. Dr Bober helped me out. Do I 80 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:13,479 Speaker 1: hear a motive, Nancy? This guy really is an idiot. 81 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 1: His story has more holes in Swiss cheese. From the 82 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:19,280 Speaker 1: first moment and between the fifth bed, it seems like 83 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 1: he's all done. Ten week pregnant girlfriend. All right, Nanette? 84 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 1: So so this girlfriend apparently somebody he's known since childhood. Yes, 85 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 1: according to Richard, they had gone to high school together, 86 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 1: he told Investigate. When he gives investigators a couple of 87 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 1: versions of the story. First and one part, he says 88 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 1: that he and his wife, Connie had an untraditional type 89 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 1: of marriage, and that Connie was okay with this, and 90 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 1: that they planned to co parents, and that that was 91 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:57,239 Speaker 1: cheating on both sides. So there's that Dr Daniel Bober 92 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: hold on holding Nanette. I gotta go back to her 93 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:04,159 Speaker 1: shrink on this, Dr Bober Why is it always have 94 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: you noticed a trend? Now? This is just anecdotal on 95 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:10,480 Speaker 1: my part. I haven't done a statistical study. But why 96 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:14,159 Speaker 1: is it always the man who is standing over the 97 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 1: dead wife's body going, oh, yes, she was fine with 98 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 1: me dating other people. We had an arrangement, we had 99 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 1: an open marriage. Why isn't the woman ever saying yeah, 100 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:26,679 Speaker 1: we had an open marriage. Why is it always the man? Bober? 101 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 1: It just seems to work out better for men that way, Nancy. 102 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 1: I'm not really sure why, but it seems like whenever 103 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 1: they make that assertion, the only person that can refute 104 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 1: that is dead. I'm so glad you you didn't even 105 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 1: bother to put up a fight with me on that 106 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:43,359 Speaker 1: when ash actually willke out with me, renowned lawyer and 107 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 1: child afcan Ashley an open marriage? M No, bull, He's 108 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 1: just full of crap. I mean, he's just saying what 109 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 1: he thinks he can say to get away with it, 110 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:59,840 Speaker 1: because no she I cannot imagine she said, oh yeah, 111 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:04,159 Speaker 1: that's great. And the other thing is she knew something 112 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 1: was amiss with the marriage. I stand by and I've 113 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 1: always said, if any spouse, male or female, has gut 114 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 1: feelings or writes um things down about reasons to divorce 115 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 1: my spouse, you have some sense that something's amiss, even 116 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 1: if you don't know what it is. Nanetta Sosa, I 117 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 1: so rudely interrupted you, but I had to just isolate 118 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 1: the fact that the husband when his girlfriend pops up 119 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 1: ten weeks pregnant, says to cops we had an open marriage. 120 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:36,239 Speaker 1: She's fine with it, Ninette, what were you about to say? Well, 121 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 1: there was that one version and then the other version 122 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 1: is where they have tracked police source that text about 123 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 1: him to the girlfriend that uh, this is getting a 124 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 1: slow moved divorce to make it easier on our kids. Uh. Quote, 125 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 1: way by way, I've got to I've got to dissect 126 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 1: that to Ninette Sosa. A slow moving divorce, that's his words, 127 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 1: Richard debates, where it's not mine, a slow moving divorce 128 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 1: so as not to affect the children. Yeah, let's just 129 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 1: rip the band aid off very slowly to just drag 130 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 1: out the pain. Um too. Joe Scott Morgan, she Connie Debate, 131 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 1: was shot dead in the Ellington home with a three 132 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 1: fifty seven magnum What kind of bullet is that, Joe 133 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, very large bullet, Nancy. Uh A, it's fired 134 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 1: from a revolver, which is a weapon with a cylinder, 135 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 1: and it's a very ominous looking handgun. When you see 136 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 1: one of these things compared to say like something in 137 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 1: old fashioned special, you know, even more significant though, I 138 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 1: think than the size of the bullet which I was 139 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:55,680 Speaker 1: interested in, that the killer would inflict so much pain 140 00:08:55,880 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 1: on their victim. Is the fact that we now note 141 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan, this three seven magnum was when her purchase, 142 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 1: her husband had purchased just a month or so before 143 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 1: the shooting. This is she's murdered with her husband's own gun. Yeah, 144 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 1: and there's tie back to that. You can place this 145 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:19,200 Speaker 1: weapon in his hand at the time of purchase. And 146 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 1: what's really kind of compelling about this nancies the fact 147 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: that this woman didn't want guns in the house. She 148 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 1: didn't feel comfortable around them. But yet he purchased not 149 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:31,680 Speaker 1: not a small weapon, but one of the largest weapons 150 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:34,679 Speaker 1: you can purchase over the counter. Uh, you know, at 151 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: a at a gun store where you walk in and say, yeah, 152 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 1: I don't you know, I don't want a small one. 153 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 1: I want to get the three fifty seven magna. To 154 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 1: Dr Daniel Bober joining me, forensic psychiatrist and medical doctor, 155 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 1: the husband, Richard Debate claims that he was subdued. Okay, 156 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:57,080 Speaker 1: brace yourself. Debate tells police he struggled with the mass intruder, 157 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:02,359 Speaker 1: but that the intruders subdued him by quote applying pressure 158 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 1: two debates wrists? What does that mean? Pressure on your wrist? 159 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 1: I mean, you didn't even have a bruise, bober nothing, 160 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:16,959 Speaker 1: You didn't even get roughed up, nothing, Nancy. It's just uh, 161 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:20,080 Speaker 1: it's just complete nonsense. I mean he really, he really 162 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 1: should have thought it through better if he was going 163 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 1: to come up with a story. There's just too many holes. Well, 164 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 1: how can you subditct? What? What does it mean to 165 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:29,120 Speaker 1: put pressure on your wrists? I guess he's trying to 166 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 1: say that he was, you know, trying to mobilize them 167 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:34,720 Speaker 1: him by you putting or putting pressure on the wrist. 168 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 1: So that rate says the intruder put quote pressure on 169 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 1: his the husband's wrists to subdue him. Now, how did 170 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:48,960 Speaker 1: he get debates? Gun does? It doesn't fit, It doesn't 171 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 1: make any sense. Again, as we have learned, Connie did 172 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:54,840 Speaker 1: not like guns, did not want them in the home, 173 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:58,560 Speaker 1: and there was no indications in their emails or text 174 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:01,200 Speaker 1: she had any idea or her husband was having an 175 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 1: affair or had gotten another woman pregnant. Now friends agree 176 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 1: with that. The friends don't want to be quoted because 177 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 1: they are afraid. Why are they afraid, they say, because 178 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 1: Richard Debate was released from prison on bond. All right, 179 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:24,440 Speaker 1: how did that happen? He was released on bond and 180 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:28,839 Speaker 1: is walking free. And during that time, as she willcott, 181 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:33,479 Speaker 1: he has gone into the insurance accounts and bank accounts 182 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 1: and drained nearly eighty thousand dollars out of the accounts. 183 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: I mean, does it never end? And I don't know 184 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 1: how he got out on board or why a judge 185 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:45,320 Speaker 1: would set upon Frankly that he could get out on 186 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 1: because from all accounts, the evidence is there. He was 187 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:52,880 Speaker 1: in jail. I don't even understand how he's out. And 188 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 1: now for friends to say, hey, we're fearful, right, we 189 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 1: don't want to quote him because we're fearful and he's 190 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 1: been released from prison. Boy, that just adds fuel to 191 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:04,240 Speaker 1: the fire of why he doesn't need to be out. 192 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:06,559 Speaker 1: We also know that he had a secret credit card, 193 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 1: has charged about twelve dollars at a strip club, was 194 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:14,440 Speaker 1: using it for flowers for his girlfriend and hotel rooms. 195 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:18,120 Speaker 1: This is during his wife's life. The focus right now 196 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 1: is the legal issue of the fitbit. As Nanette Sosa 197 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 1: told us, this has been called the Fitbit and murder case. 198 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 1: I think actually it's going to be like every other 199 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 1: test in court, Like with the first time they used fingerprints, 200 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 1: somebody said, Wow, I don't have much faith in this, 201 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:38,320 Speaker 1: or the first time you used DNA or fiber or 202 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:42,439 Speaker 1: hair analysis. You have to undergo a test of reliability 203 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 1: and prove that in court. So how are we going 204 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 1: to get I mean I I see it being the 205 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 1: way of for instance, Sirie and Alexa and on Star fitbit. 206 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:56,680 Speaker 1: We surround ourselves with technology, we rely on it. And 207 00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:59,080 Speaker 1: now you know you live by the sword, you die 208 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:00,840 Speaker 1: by the sword. How are they going to get the 209 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:03,480 Speaker 1: fitbit evidence in that his story is a lie. It's 210 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 1: gonna be like a cell phone record. In my opinion, 211 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 1: it's as an electronic footprint or record that shows exactly 212 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 1: where the steps were and when they were taken. Um. 213 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 1: And so I think it's going to be a series 214 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 1: of questions that an attorney will use to lay the 215 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 1: foundation to do exactly what you said, which is to 216 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:27,720 Speaker 1: show it's reliable electronically. This is the footprint, this is 217 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:30,320 Speaker 1: the record, and it's like any other record that we 218 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 1: all have to introduce in court to lay the foundation 219 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 1: and make it admissible. Um, it's probably gonna be challenged 220 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:38,480 Speaker 1: because it's new. But like you said, once you get 221 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 1: that certain list of questions to lay the proper foundation, 222 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:44,200 Speaker 1: I suspect it's going to be admitted just like a 223 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 1: cell phone record. Mind, you know what's so sad. In addition, 224 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:51,560 Speaker 1: of course her death and they've got little children. Even 225 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 1: with his acting out and his bad behavior in cheating 226 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 1: which she didn't know about. The cheating wasn't on her list. 227 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:00,360 Speaker 1: She was still trying to make their marriage work, just 228 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:05,439 Speaker 1: doing anything to hold her family together. And now, mommy, 229 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 1: Connie Debate has been murdered. Alan, do you joining me 230 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 1: with me? From l A Now, a police spokeswoman, UM 231 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:18,719 Speaker 1: explained the fitbit. What did she say, Alan, Well, she 232 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 1: explains how detectives would they realized that she was wearing it. 233 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 1: They access the data and it is what allowed them 234 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 1: to nail down the timeline of when she actually was killed. 235 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 1: Let's listen to it. So once that movement stops, the 236 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 1: fitbit stops, detectives were able to determine the time that 237 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 1: Connie unfortunately stopped moving. Guys, I want to thank all 238 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 1: of you for being with us, not just our awesome 239 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 1: guest Dr Daniel bober As she willcott Joe Scott Morgan 240 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:54,120 Speaker 1: and Annette Sosa. But to you for joining us. 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As soon as 274 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 1: he was born, he started having major illnesses, and over 275 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 1: just a few years, this little boy had thirteen major surgeries, 276 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 1: his life in jeopardy, over and over and over with fatal, 277 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:07,200 Speaker 1: deadly blood infections. After one port and one pick after 278 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:10,720 Speaker 1: the next, one catheter after the next, into major arteries 279 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 1: would somehow become infected and sepsis would take over his 280 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:23,160 Speaker 1: little body. The pain, the seizures, the operations of surgeries, 281 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 1: this poor child endured, but now he's totally cured. Is 282 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:40,800 Speaker 1: it true what police say that mommy had veryon von 283 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 1: Munchausen by proxy and would make her child sick for 284 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 1: years on end, watching him suffer, watching him have seizures 285 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 1: from the pain, going to the brink of death and 286 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:59,600 Speaker 1: back over and over again. Because if it's true, she's 287 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:02,639 Speaker 1: got a one way ticket to hell and she's sitting 288 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:06,160 Speaker 1: at Satan's right hand for dinner. That's what I've got 289 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:09,080 Speaker 1: to say, John Limley with me crying stories contributing reporter, 290 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:12,640 Speaker 1: Please tell me this isn't true, that somehow I've gotten 291 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 1: the facts wrong. John, it seems to all be true. 292 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:19,159 Speaker 1: And even before the birth of their son, Nancy, Ryan 293 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 1: Crawford suspected that something was wrong with the boy's mother, 294 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 1: A pregnant Kayleen bowen Wright, would call Crawford in the 295 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 1: middle of the night from random hospitals, reporting that she 296 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:34,199 Speaker 1: had been admitted for various reasons. Once she even claimed 297 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:37,119 Speaker 1: she had a fever a one hundred ten degrees for 298 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:41,920 Speaker 1: seven consecutive days. Crawford, Canada one. Can you even have 299 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 1: a favor of a hundred and ten? J Scott Morgan, 300 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:47,800 Speaker 1: can you have a favor of a d Sorry, Joe Scott, 301 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:51,360 Speaker 1: not to emasculate you, but Dr Daniel Bober, you're the MD. 302 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:54,160 Speaker 1: Can you even have a temperature of a hundred ten? 303 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:56,479 Speaker 1: It's possible, but you would be dead pretty quickly if 304 00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 1: that happened. Okay, So you know there's Bober as usual 305 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:03,480 Speaker 1: saying yes but maybe not. Okay, thanks Bober. All right, 306 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 1: back to you, Liveley, I had read into end. Okay, 307 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 1: go ahead, you're right. Even though this story is over 308 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:12,160 Speaker 1: the top, it was nothing compared to the stories that 309 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 1: Crawford says Bow and Right would tell after the premature 310 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:19,679 Speaker 1: birth of their son, Christopher, who was born after thirty 311 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:22,720 Speaker 1: three weeks. Wait did you say thirty three weeks? Thirty 312 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 1: three weeks, Ashley Willcott. I'm gonna go to you on 313 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:30,400 Speaker 1: this one, Ashley. The twins were born really prematurely. They 314 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 1: were thirty one weeks by one day, thirty one three 315 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 1: one and lived in the Nick you Neon natal intensive 316 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:40,639 Speaker 1: care unit. And I was an intensive care unit for 317 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:42,120 Speaker 1: I don't even know how long. It's all a big 318 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 1: blurred to me. So thirty three weeks. I'm like, Hey, 319 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:48,920 Speaker 1: that's not bad, Am I wrong? Ash I don't disagree 320 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 1: with you. That's not bad. And uh, from all accounts 321 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:55,160 Speaker 1: and the things that I've seen reported, there were no 322 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:58,879 Speaker 1: major premature medical conditions that she had to face with 323 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:02,440 Speaker 1: her particular child documented by the hospital. Okay, Limley, hit me, 324 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:06,639 Speaker 1: what happened? Well? Despite that, between two thousand nine and 325 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:11,119 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, just last year, medical records show that Christopher 326 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:14,879 Speaker 1: was seen, as you've mentioned, three hundred twenty three times 327 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:19,440 Speaker 1: at hospitals pediatric centers around Dallas and Houston and underwent 328 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:24,200 Speaker 1: thirteen major surgeries. All of this according to Child Protective Services. 329 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:29,439 Speaker 1: Throughout his life, Christopher has been placed full time on oxygen, 330 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:34,840 Speaker 1: at times using a wheelchair. He's endured invasive procedures surgeries, 331 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:38,480 Speaker 1: including being fitted with a feeding tube that fed directly 332 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:41,679 Speaker 1: into a small intestine and that's what led to multiple 333 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:43,920 Speaker 1: life threatening blood Okay, hold on, I gotta I gotta 334 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:46,760 Speaker 1: got to Dr Bober on something. Uh. Dr Daniel Bober 335 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:49,639 Speaker 1: with me, hold on, Limley with me. Dr Daniel Bober 336 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:52,159 Speaker 1: forensic psychiatrist. And of course you've got to be a 337 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:55,679 Speaker 1: medical doctor and then go on to get your specialty 338 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:59,720 Speaker 1: in psychiatry. Ashley Wilcott as a very well known lawyer 339 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 1: and old Advocate, JOSEPHS. Got Morgan Forensics Expert, Professor Forensics 340 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:08,479 Speaker 1: at Jacksonville State University. John Limley Crime Stories contributing reporter, 341 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 1: and Annette Sosa Crime Stories contributing reporter as well. Hold On, 342 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 1: I got so carried away with introducing you. What was 343 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:19,440 Speaker 1: I about to say? Oh? Yes, Ah. Dr Bober my 344 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:25,960 Speaker 1: sister who I love deeply, husband has m MASS. He's 345 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:29,160 Speaker 1: had MS for many, many, many years since the late eighties, 346 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 1: and he's been in wheelchair bound for a while a 347 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 1: long time. And um, you know, Christopher Reeves Dr. Bober 348 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 1: also was paralyzed and he would get as they euphemistically 349 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:45,120 Speaker 1: called them, pressure points. That's simply a bed sore, That's 350 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:47,440 Speaker 1: what that is. And I when I first heard that, 351 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:50,160 Speaker 1: I thought, Oh, they weren't paying attention to Superman. They 352 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 1: weren't moving him, they weren't taking care of them. Damn 353 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: them to hell. Well, I found out when you are 354 00:21:56,440 --> 00:22:00,120 Speaker 1: in a bed in a wheelchair for fifteen twenty years, 355 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:03,320 Speaker 1: no matter how much you get moved, you're gonna get 356 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 1: a bed store or pressure point, which turns into an infection. 357 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 1: I found out by researching it when my brother in 358 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:14,680 Speaker 1: law got sick Um, and my sister. I gotta tell you, 359 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 1: she works full time. She's up a college professor, she's 360 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:24,879 Speaker 1: heads her department. She's raised two incredible, incredible children, smart 361 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:29,119 Speaker 1: off the charts, and Um, she's taken care of her 362 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 1: husband devotedly. She got one of those mattresses, Dr bober 363 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:37,639 Speaker 1: that blows up and then un blows up to keep you, 364 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:40,879 Speaker 1: you know, moving. She wakes up in the morning and 365 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 1: bathes him and dresses him and takes care of him. 366 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:50,959 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't. She's always been an inspiration to me, 367 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 1: and she takes so much care of him. But there 368 00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:59,320 Speaker 1: have been times when Um, through a shot or a 369 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 1: Catherine or something. Dr Bebera, you get a raging sepsis 370 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 1: infection and it can kill you. Dr Bebera, how do 371 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:11,240 Speaker 1: you how did this little boy get that? Nancy? Actually, 372 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:14,040 Speaker 1: what you were talking about what they're called venus stasis ulcers, 373 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 1: and they result from lack of circulation and immobility. But 374 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:20,119 Speaker 1: in this particular case, you know, I was saying to 375 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:24,399 Speaker 1: Alan that doctors do not communicate. So the way that 376 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 1: people usually pick it up, surprisingly is by the insurance company, 377 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 1: by the claims that are filed. Because as we know, 378 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 1: when you have a loved one who has multiple specialists 379 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 1: on the case. Very often these doctors do not talk 380 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 1: to each other. So I'm saying, I'm saying, how do 381 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:43,480 Speaker 1: you from a Katherin or a an I V at 382 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:47,359 Speaker 1: the hospital get sepsis? How does that happen? Oh? Because 383 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 1: for example, lack of hand washing, lack of sterile technique. 384 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 1: There's the hospital's billed the bacteria, many of them resistant 385 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:58,120 Speaker 1: to antibiotics, and this can happen in the home environment too, 386 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:01,880 Speaker 1: And so as a result that Catherine becomes um colonized 387 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 1: with bacteria, and then this causes a septic infection. Well, 388 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:08,360 Speaker 1: typically when my brother in law has had infections, it's 389 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:11,480 Speaker 1: always after going to the doctor or the hospital. So, 390 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:15,439 Speaker 1: John Limley, this mom was inducing, according to police, so 391 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:20,439 Speaker 1: many illnesses, thirteen major surgeries on a top boy, major surgeries. 392 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:23,400 Speaker 1: And she would hospital shop, wouldn't she literally, Like when 393 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:25,239 Speaker 1: one hospital was say I think we should take him 394 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:27,520 Speaker 1: off the feeding tube, she'd leave the hospital and go 395 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:30,400 Speaker 1: to a different hospital. Oh. Sure, she was darting from 396 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:34,440 Speaker 1: hospital to pediatric care center to hospital. Uh. At one 397 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:36,359 Speaker 1: point she even tried to get him on the lung 398 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:41,120 Speaker 1: transplant list and had previously had him in hospice care. 399 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:45,080 Speaker 1: This is according to a court documents, hospice carespice care 400 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:47,760 Speaker 1: as if she was saying, you know, his life was 401 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:52,640 Speaker 1: coming to an end. It was all a lie, Ashley. 402 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 1: I mean, ash remember last year when I stupidly jumped 403 00:24:57,320 --> 00:24:58,960 Speaker 1: off the top of a five foot fence like I 404 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:02,159 Speaker 1: was Supergirl and tore my a c l am I 405 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 1: whatever is down there and had this surgery. Oh the drama. 406 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:09,159 Speaker 1: And you know it's just like every time there's a 407 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 1: surgery of some sort, there's like high drama. This little 408 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 1: boy has had thirteen major surgeries. Thirteen. You know this 409 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 1: does I don't even know where to start. Let me 410 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 1: right right, And so one of the things to keep 411 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:29,359 Speaker 1: in mind with individuals who engage in this abuse of 412 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 1: children Munchausen by proxy or they're also now calling it factitious. 413 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 1: Excuse me, let's see another yes, and then the caregiver 414 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:42,879 Speaker 1: fabricated illness and a child. They either exaggerate symptoms that 415 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:46,760 Speaker 1: a child has or even worse, they completely make up symptoms. 416 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:48,720 Speaker 1: And one of the things Nancy to remember with this 417 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 1: is so many doctors really think about when you go 418 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 1: to the doctor, when that happened to your foot? What 419 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:56,280 Speaker 1: did you do? When you went to the doctor, you said, 420 00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,160 Speaker 1: this is what happened. This is how I hurt myself, 421 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:01,679 Speaker 1: this is how I'm feeling. Obviously, a broken bone you 422 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 1: can see, but if you're nauseous or not, that's self reported, 423 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 1: that's not anything the doctor can see. And so here 424 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 1: you have this mother who is self reported and made, 425 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 1: you know what, up all over the map to do 426 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:16,240 Speaker 1: this to her child. It is a form of child abuse, 427 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 1: let's be clear. Well here's another thing. To Joseph Scott Morgan, 428 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 1: Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, it's one thing. It's bad 429 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,880 Speaker 1: enough when we keep seeing these cases where parents neglect 430 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 1: the child and they're in theeces and they've got diper 431 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:33,920 Speaker 1: rational over their body and their male nutritions, and it's 432 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 1: just I want to just go in and kill kill 433 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 1: the parents. I want to this that's where they're just 434 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:46,040 Speaker 1: totally drunk or high or just don't care. In this case, 435 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:50,119 Speaker 1: cops are saying, from the time this child was born, 436 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 1: the mom was making sure the baby was infected, having surgeries, 437 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,400 Speaker 1: going into seizures, making up complaints. Actually may a king 438 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:05,119 Speaker 1: the child sick on a feeding tube on a catheter, 439 00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:08,840 Speaker 1: I mean, Joe Scott for people that don't know how 440 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,480 Speaker 1: a catheter works, because you explain it. Yeah, it works 441 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:15,199 Speaker 1: as as a delivery system where it's placed into the body. 442 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:19,440 Speaker 1: And as Dr Bober had stated, you're talking about taking 443 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:24,199 Speaker 1: a foreign object. Uh though it is technically a medical 444 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,840 Speaker 1: device and it's it's rife with infection. So just imagine this. 445 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:30,600 Speaker 1: You mentioned how many times this child has been treated, 446 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:36,359 Speaker 1: and we're not talking about treating a kid. Uh. You know, 447 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 1: why can't men get to the point I said, how 448 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:46,440 Speaker 1: does the catheinter work? Catherin goes up your penis? This 449 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:50,960 Speaker 1: mom had a catheter go up for child's penis over 450 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:53,919 Speaker 1: and over and over. You think that felt good? No, 451 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:58,440 Speaker 1: it didn't feel good. The child had a feeding tube 452 00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:01,840 Speaker 1: for Pete's sake. How does a feeding tube work? Joe Scott, 453 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 1: tell me, don't make me Q and A with myself. 454 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,879 Speaker 1: The feeding two very simply, uh, Nancy is placed into 455 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:13,399 Speaker 1: the small intestine. And in order to get how how 456 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 1: go through your stomach? There? They cut a hole in 457 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:22,160 Speaker 1: you and stick a feeding tube into your intestine. You 458 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:24,600 Speaker 1: have to have your body cut open. I'm looking at 459 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,159 Speaker 1: you know, Joe Scott, I want you to take a 460 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,920 Speaker 1: few moments and consider your answers. You're starting to sound 461 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:35,320 Speaker 1: like some highbrow intellectual and I don't even know what 462 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 1: you're saying. But I do know. A feeding tube has 463 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 1: to go through a cut in your stomach into your intestine, 464 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:47,600 Speaker 1: and a cafeter goes into your penis or other. It's painful. 465 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,120 Speaker 1: That's what I'm trying to say. Am I wrong? I'm 466 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 1: just a j D. I'm not an empty Am I wrong? 467 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 1: Joe Scott? You're absolutely right, Nancy. I mean, look at 468 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:01,760 Speaker 1: this boy, I mean, ash Ashley, Willcot, John Afoca. I'm 469 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 1: looking at him, Jackie. Look at him. Look at the 470 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 1: little face. He's in a wheelchair. He's got a feeding team. 471 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 1: Look at him, Oxygen going into his mouth. He's got 472 00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 1: all sorts of bags on a wheelchair. Oh he got 473 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 1: something on his arm. To look Nancy, it's like it's 474 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 1: broken or I mean it's it goes on and on 475 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:26,480 Speaker 1: him shaved his head. I mean, because we know there 476 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 1: was nothing wrong with him, John Limley, how long has 477 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:37,640 Speaker 1: this gone on? Thirteen surgeries seizures. The child legitimately went 478 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:42,440 Speaker 1: into real seizures from pain seven years seven years long, 479 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 1: and during this entire time is undergoing ordeal after ordeal. 480 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 1: His biological father is trying to convince Dallas County Family 481 00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 1: Court judges that his son was not sick in the beginning. 482 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,920 Speaker 1: Of course, he maybe now, but they've believed that the 483 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 1: mother who would eventually claim that their son was dying 484 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,719 Speaker 1: initially from a rare genetic disorder and later from cancer, 485 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:13,640 Speaker 1: Crawford said in a Dallas County uh set. A Dallas 486 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 1: County judge even blocked him in late from visiting his son. 487 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,480 Speaker 1: This is the this is the biological father that's trying 488 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,360 Speaker 1: to intervene in help. In the end, it would take 489 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:29,800 Speaker 1: Dallas hospital staff finally sounding the alarm after seven years. 490 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:34,200 Speaker 1: But I can't blame just them because she was hospital shopping, 491 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:36,360 Speaker 1: So you can't blame any one hospital because as soon 492 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:38,400 Speaker 1: as she didn't like what one said, she got to 493 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:42,520 Speaker 1: another one and then circle back later. Um, what about this? 494 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:47,000 Speaker 1: Isn't it true? Joe Scott Morgan, you're the forensics expert 495 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 1: that at one point she had the child in hospice 496 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:55,920 Speaker 1: care for pain management and mommy signed a quote do 497 00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,240 Speaker 1: not resuscitate for her little boy when he was just 498 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:04,880 Speaker 1: five years old. Was mommy planning to kill him? Joe Scott, 499 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:08,320 Speaker 1: I do not resuscitate. What is that? It means that no, 500 00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:11,680 Speaker 1: and I mean absolutely no heroic measures can be taken 501 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 1: to resuscitate him in any way. And after that means 502 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:17,520 Speaker 1: bring back from life. If he's gone into I mean 503 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:20,240 Speaker 1: bringing back to life, he's gone into cardiac arrest. Let's 504 00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:24,400 Speaker 1: keep in mind she's essentially weaponized medical treatment here where 505 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:26,600 Speaker 1: she shopped him around so much you can imagine how 506 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:29,280 Speaker 1: worn out his little body is by this point. He's 507 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:33,040 Speaker 1: subject to all of these various infections what sometimes are 508 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 1: called nosa comial infections that you get in institutions because 509 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:39,480 Speaker 1: everybody's every hospitals, menytimes, there's some of the filthiest places 510 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:41,040 Speaker 1: on the face of the well, I mean all those 511 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:44,640 Speaker 1: sick germs. I remember Dr Daniel Boburg, psychiatrist and m D. 512 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:49,000 Speaker 1: And my dad had his very first coronary thrombosis. He 513 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:55,120 Speaker 1: was taken to specialists in in Birmingham and UM University Hospital, 514 00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:59,160 Speaker 1: University of Alabama Hospital and a I think it was 515 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:03,720 Speaker 1: a oh gosh, it was an infection that spread from 516 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:07,280 Speaker 1: room to room to room and there were multiple deaths 517 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:12,120 Speaker 1: on his floor at that time, and I, you know, 518 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 1: am just thank god he got through that and I 519 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:17,320 Speaker 1: had the time with him that I did have. But 520 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:19,960 Speaker 1: it's not that they don't clean the hospitals. Is that, 521 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:22,239 Speaker 1: you know, there's all these sick germs floating around. Let 522 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 1: me ask you this, Dr bober Um. The child was 523 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:30,640 Speaker 1: in hospice for pain, but then bow and Wright would 524 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 1: not cooperate with the eight week plan there aimed at 525 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 1: helping him live without feeding tubes, okay, and she lied 526 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:43,920 Speaker 1: and said she lied to hospice saying her insurance denied 527 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,160 Speaker 1: the treatment so she could get him out so they 528 00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 1: wouldn't get him well. But then right after that, he 529 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,640 Speaker 1: was admitted to the ICU for a third life threatening 530 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:56,400 Speaker 1: blood infection related to a central line catheter. Dr bober 531 00:32:56,480 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 1: What is a central line catheter? ANTI? A centralized catheter 532 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:05,400 Speaker 1: is something that goes into the internal jugular vein. It 533 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:10,200 Speaker 1: delivers UH, can deliver fluids, blood medicine directly into the 534 00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 1: circulation and it's a perfect place for an infection to 535 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:17,600 Speaker 1: form UH if it's done either in a hospital or 536 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 1: with someone who's not using proper serial technique and can 537 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:25,360 Speaker 1: cause a nasty infection. Which gonna be life threatening infection. Well, 538 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:29,080 Speaker 1: it goes on from there, John Limley. When she did 539 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:34,520 Speaker 1: not comply with medical recommendations from the hospital, she took 540 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:37,360 Speaker 1: the boy out and took him to Texas Children's Hospital 541 00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:41,920 Speaker 1: in Houston, refusing to provide medical records from previous care 542 00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:45,480 Speaker 1: at the Children's Health Medical Center in Dallas, and she 543 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:51,320 Speaker 1: started the cycle of testing the boy all over again. 544 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 1: More pricks, more ports in his body, more catheters, more surgeries, 545 00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:05,000 Speaker 1: more feeding bag. I mean, Ashley, she is diabolical in 546 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:08,279 Speaker 1: her evil if these claims are true. To sit by 547 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:11,600 Speaker 1: and act like the loving mother when you're torturing your child, 548 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:17,280 Speaker 1: it's torture again. It is clear medical child abuse into story. 549 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:19,319 Speaker 1: The other thing I just want to just want to 550 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:21,279 Speaker 1: point out as well, do you know and some of 551 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:25,239 Speaker 1: the reports it states that when this little boy was 552 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:29,640 Speaker 1: an infant, some of the staff at a hospital observed 553 00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:33,719 Speaker 1: her feeding him a little bit of a bottle, pouring 554 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,560 Speaker 1: all the milk out, and then lying to doctors and saying, oh, 555 00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:41,200 Speaker 1: he drank this whole bottle. And so already, when this 556 00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:45,480 Speaker 1: was a little infant, she was doing things to purposely 557 00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:50,640 Speaker 1: create all of these medical issues that didn't exist. In fact, 558 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:54,160 Speaker 1: detectives had added just in the past few days that 559 00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:58,319 Speaker 1: these records showed that bowen Wright's mother actually helped her 560 00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:02,759 Speaker 1: dump those contents from Christopher's bottles. Why though I don't 561 00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:07,360 Speaker 1: understand why, Dr Daniel bober As far as I'm concerned, 562 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,719 Speaker 1: she can rotten hell, the whole kit and caboodle as 563 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:14,000 Speaker 1: long as the boy gets free. But what causes this? 564 00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:17,240 Speaker 1: What is munch housing? It's a very rare disordered, Dancy, 565 00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:19,920 Speaker 1: and as your other guests dated, it's now called back. 566 00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:29,200 Speaker 1: It's what factitious? Okay, you know what I actually think, 567 00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:32,840 Speaker 1: Baron von Munchausen by proxy, it's actually easier than whatever 568 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:35,440 Speaker 1: it is you just said. But go ahead, you and 569 00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:38,560 Speaker 1: Ashley Wilcot Can and Joe Scott Morgan can have your 570 00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:45,120 Speaker 1: your legal technical medical doctor term conversation, but not right 571 00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:49,000 Speaker 1: here on series six, please speak regular people talk, Doctor 572 00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:55,000 Speaker 1: Daniel Bober, so Nancy. Essentially, the difference between this order 573 00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:58,279 Speaker 1: and this disorder and m lingering is with malingering, there 574 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:02,040 Speaker 1: is secondary gay. With this disorder. The illness role is 575 00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:05,120 Speaker 1: the secondary game. In other words, people do it simply 576 00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:08,719 Speaker 1: to get attention, and usually they themselves no surprise, have 577 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:11,960 Speaker 1: a history of mental illness, sometimes the history of abuse, 578 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:15,279 Speaker 1: sometimes have a history of absent parent figures. And so 579 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:18,680 Speaker 1: there are people that are very defective, deficient, and inadequate 580 00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:21,839 Speaker 1: and they use the illness of their child to fill 581 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:26,359 Speaker 1: this void. It's a severe, severe mental illness obviously with Victor, Well, 582 00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:30,120 Speaker 1: can you tell me, John Limley, is she in jail? 583 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,399 Speaker 1: Just that's a yes. No, that's all I want to know. 584 00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:38,760 Speaker 1: She is being held. Uh, bond has been reduced. Still 585 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:42,360 Speaker 1: no word on whether she family members have been able 586 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,560 Speaker 1: to to raise that bond as she will cut. I 587 00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:48,240 Speaker 1: think maybe we should let her have a reduced bond 588 00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:50,960 Speaker 1: under the condition that she has to wear a catheter 589 00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:55,080 Speaker 1: for the next seven or eight years. What about that? Yeah, 590 00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:59,319 Speaker 1: let her enjoy that a catheter, a catheter and oxygen 591 00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:03,640 Speaker 1: and a oken arm and yeah, right awful, you know, Nancy? 592 00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:05,839 Speaker 1: Can can I just add one of the things give 593 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:08,799 Speaker 1: people do where they're where it's owed, and that is 594 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:12,040 Speaker 1: it's nice to see this isn't a criminal context, because 595 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:15,560 Speaker 1: usually you see Munchausen in the context of custody cases. 596 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:18,319 Speaker 1: So good for them for charging this woman. Take a 597 00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:21,000 Speaker 1: listen to what Dad says. It makes me feel as 598 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:28,160 Speaker 1: if the system wants to believe the mother all the time. 599 00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:31,600 Speaker 1: Were you worried that she may kill him? I figured 600 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:34,800 Speaker 1: that one day that that would be the end cause. 601 00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:40,919 Speaker 1: Knowing that your son is being injured but you can't 602 00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:44,239 Speaker 1: do anything about it, it's the worst pain. Christopher's father 603 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,360 Speaker 1: says his son now appears to be physically healthy. I 604 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:50,280 Speaker 1: am so sorry that I wasn't able to be there 605 00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:53,640 Speaker 1: to stop the harm that has been done. Unto you, 606 00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:57,759 Speaker 1: this little boy almost passed away three different times due 607 00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:01,239 Speaker 1: to infections from thirteen different sort trees. He has a 608 00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:08,800 Speaker 1: very long road ahead of him. But somehow I find 609 00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:13,280 Speaker 1: some degree of peace in knowing mommy is in jail, 610 00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:18,160 Speaker 1: and may she stay there. That's one of my Christmas wishes. 611 00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:21,400 Speaker 1: I want to pause and thank our partners making today's 612 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:25,160 Speaker 1: program possible. And one of our partners that I just 613 00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:28,480 Speaker 1: love is super Beats. My son first heard I was 614 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:31,600 Speaker 1: involved with super Beats. He meant, Mom, those are too costy, 615 00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:35,040 Speaker 1: their four dollars. He thought I was talking about this 616 00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:39,960 Speaker 1: really expensive set of earphones. He's all about earphones, super Beats, 617 00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:42,360 Speaker 1: B E A T S. I'm like, no, my love, 618 00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:47,279 Speaker 1: no super Beats. B E E T S. You know, 619 00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:50,600 Speaker 1: speaking of the twins, wouldn't it be great to have 620 00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:55,320 Speaker 1: all the energy you wanted all day long? So I could, 621 00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:58,640 Speaker 1: you know, run with them all day. But fatigue gets 622 00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:01,400 Speaker 1: in the way even for every activities. I mean, if 623 00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:03,359 Speaker 1: you're up at five thirty every morning like I am, 624 00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:06,719 Speaker 1: by about four o'clock you're dragging. It seems to get 625 00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:09,160 Speaker 1: worse every year. And this is why when you're twenty, 626 00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:12,600 Speaker 1: your body has a natural ability to maintain healthy circulation. 627 00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:16,880 Speaker 1: By age forty, now don't blow it, Dr Brian Russell, 628 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:19,160 Speaker 1: but the twins think I'm eleven and a half, don't 629 00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:23,480 Speaker 1: mess it up. By the time your forty, that ability 630 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:26,320 Speaker 1: has decreased by half, and it leaves you feeling tired. 631 00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:30,000 Speaker 1: What can you do to get that circulation back and 632 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:34,480 Speaker 1: fight fatigue? Drink super beats Listen. Super Beats promotes the 633 00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:39,160 Speaker 1: body's own natural ability to produce healthy circulation, increase energy 634 00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:42,719 Speaker 1: and stamina all day long and only super Beats is 635 00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:47,200 Speaker 1: made from beats grown to very exacting standards and then 636 00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:51,840 Speaker 1: concentrated into super food crystals for us. So if you 637 00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:55,760 Speaker 1: want to increase your own natural energy, call eight hundred 638 00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:59,000 Speaker 1: five one six zero six eight three, or go to 639 00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:02,560 Speaker 1: Nancy's Beat dot com in a n C Y S 640 00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:06,680 Speaker 1: B E E T S Nancy's Beats dot Com. Catch 641 00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:10,440 Speaker 1: this with a first order, you get another free free 642 00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:14,000 Speaker 1: thirty days supply of super Beats plus these indicators trips 643 00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:16,560 Speaker 1: to see how super beats are working for you, plus 644 00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:20,160 Speaker 1: free shipping. You're not going to get that at the pharmacy. 645 00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:22,680 Speaker 1: You're not going to get that at your your health 646 00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:27,160 Speaker 1: food store. No. Eight hundred five one six zero six 647 00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:30,840 Speaker 1: eight three, or go to Nancy's Beats dot com today. 648 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:32,879 Speaker 1: In fact, I need to drink about a gallon right 649 00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:38,680 Speaker 1: now because I need energy. You know, I always beat 650 00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:41,640 Speaker 1: myself up, and I'm gonna go back to you, Ashley Willcott, 651 00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:43,879 Speaker 1: because uh, you know, Mom, and I think you went 652 00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:46,600 Speaker 1: through this as well. When I first took the children 653 00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:49,279 Speaker 1: to play school, it was two days a week, and 654 00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:51,200 Speaker 1: it was three hours at a time, and they would 655 00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:53,400 Speaker 1: scream and cry, and I would cry out in the 656 00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:55,440 Speaker 1: hall because I didn't want to leave them. But I 657 00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:59,160 Speaker 1: was working two jobs and had two book deadlines, and 658 00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:01,520 Speaker 1: I had to think. I was so tired from being 659 00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:04,839 Speaker 1: up all night with them. One at one thirty three 660 00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:08,960 Speaker 1: and five thirty will be up. I was actually seeing stars. 661 00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:11,680 Speaker 1: It's kind of all a big blur. But I would 662 00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:16,640 Speaker 1: beat myself up for taking them to play school twice 663 00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:20,560 Speaker 1: a week, Okay, and um that was bad enough. But 664 00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:25,480 Speaker 1: now I'm reading a daycare worker accused of burning at 665 00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:29,640 Speaker 1: least five tots with a hot glue gun. I mean, 666 00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:31,920 Speaker 1: am I reading this correctly? I'm reading one of my 667 00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:35,000 Speaker 1: favorite papers, The New York Post, which I mean, there's 668 00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:39,000 Speaker 1: really nothing like it. But yeah, it's five todds Ashley 669 00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:42,400 Speaker 1: with a hot glue gun. That's right, she did. And um, 670 00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:44,520 Speaker 1: you know this is a very mother's challenge. What to 671 00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:46,960 Speaker 1: do and where to put your kids in daycare? What 672 00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:49,560 Speaker 1: services to use? Can you imagine that? And and my 673 00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:53,319 Speaker 1: question is how five? How did someone not see her? 674 00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:56,919 Speaker 1: And they're actually two people charged, so how did how though, 675 00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:59,160 Speaker 1: did they get away with five? It's bad enough one, 676 00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:01,840 Speaker 1: but you would hope and think that after she abused 677 00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:04,879 Speaker 1: one and started burning with a hot glue gun, somebody 678 00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:07,840 Speaker 1: would have seen it, reported it done. Something I can't 679 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:11,200 Speaker 1: understand this day and age the hot glue gun, right, 680 00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:13,520 Speaker 1: I mean, let me get the facts. John Linley with 681 00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:17,440 Speaker 1: US investigative reporter for crime Stories and Crime online dot Com. 682 00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:20,200 Speaker 1: John start at the beginning, this woman, the daycare workers, 683 00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:23,080 Speaker 1: what thirty two? What do we now? This story continues 684 00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:27,960 Speaker 1: to unfold. Nancy in the Logan Square community of northwest Chicago. 685 00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:30,400 Speaker 1: And Yes, a thirty two year old woman has been 686 00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:33,560 Speaker 1: arrested for burning several toddlers with a hot glue gun 687 00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:37,640 Speaker 1: at a daycare center. Her name is Losandra Cosmi. She's 688 00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:40,680 Speaker 1: been charged with five felony accounts of aggravated battery to 689 00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:44,280 Speaker 1: a child. This is related to a December first incident 690 00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:49,600 Speaker 1: at children's learning place. Police sources say video show Cosmi 691 00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:53,239 Speaker 1: burning five two year olds with a hot glue gun. 692 00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:57,839 Speaker 1: According to police, Losandra brought the hot glue gun from 693 00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:01,840 Speaker 1: home to work on a Christmas project. Uh. She's ordered 694 00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:05,880 Speaker 1: held without bail at a bond hearing at the Latent 695 00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:10,200 Speaker 1: Criminal Courthouse. And we're still getting details about this now. 696 00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:13,600 Speaker 1: We also hear that the sister insists the system of 697 00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:18,840 Speaker 1: Cosmi um says that she is innocent and she quote 698 00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:22,640 Speaker 1: made a mistake. You know what, Under the law, Ashley Willcott, 699 00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:26,279 Speaker 1: mistake is not a defense. It is not and so 700 00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:29,600 Speaker 1: she hey, I can't believe she made a mistake. Quote unquote, 701 00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:32,360 Speaker 1: and b it's not a defense. She's still guilty of 702 00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:36,000 Speaker 1: the crime. Well. Also, I could see mistake one time. Say, 703 00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:38,800 Speaker 1: if you're helping a child and the glue gun touches 704 00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:42,560 Speaker 1: their hand, that's a horrible mistake. You know. Lucy is 705 00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:47,280 Speaker 1: obsessed with all things craft anything. I don't care what 706 00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:51,200 Speaker 1: it is. Dr Daniel Bober. She has a glue gun 707 00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:53,319 Speaker 1: and I gave it to her. So far she hasn't 708 00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:55,840 Speaker 1: burned herself for anybody else with it, although she's ruined 709 00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:58,480 Speaker 1: a lot of my glasses by trying to glue gun 710 00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:02,200 Speaker 1: plastic applications and just all sorts of weird stuff. The 711 00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:06,440 Speaker 1: other day she got plastic spoons broken in half and 712 00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:09,759 Speaker 1: would take the spooney part of it and wanted to 713 00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:12,000 Speaker 1: glue gun them all over the glasses to make the 714 00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:16,480 Speaker 1: glasses look like a flower. Okay, so of course the 715 00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:20,680 Speaker 1: end falls off and I'm stuck with these sharp knobby 716 00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:25,000 Speaker 1: glue gunned on plastic applicase. It's just anyway. My point is, 717 00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:28,239 Speaker 1: Dr Daniel Bober glue guns. What can you do to 718 00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:30,719 Speaker 1: somebody with a hot glue gun? And she brought it 719 00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:33,520 Speaker 1: from home, she says, for a project. Well, Nancy. The 720 00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:36,160 Speaker 1: difference and what you're talking about is obviously Lucy is 721 00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:38,960 Speaker 1: doing it under your supervision, but it seems that this 722 00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:42,120 Speaker 1: woman was using it uh to discipline the children, which 723 00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:44,040 Speaker 1: is very sick in and of itself, but it can 724 00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:47,960 Speaker 1: cause severe burns and obviously severe pain for the child 725 00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:50,479 Speaker 1: that it's being applied to. How hot do they get 726 00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:54,200 Speaker 1: to Joe Scott Morgan, forensics expert, How hot does a 727 00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:57,640 Speaker 1: glue gun get and how what burn does that result? 728 00:44:57,800 --> 00:44:59,719 Speaker 1: What kind of burn does that create? It create? It 729 00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:02,560 Speaker 1: can create upwards of a second degree burned, Nancy. These 730 00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:06,600 Speaker 1: things will burn roughly at about two forty degrees Fahrenhegh. 731 00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:10,799 Speaker 1: It's like an iron It absolutely is. You're talking about 732 00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:12,600 Speaker 1: taking a solid stick of glue and a lot of 733 00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:15,560 Speaker 1: people in audience will understand this because they use them 734 00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:20,200 Speaker 1: and liquefying it, and it's it's a horrible, nasty, nasty, 735 00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:22,600 Speaker 1: nasty kind of thing. We can get second degree burns 736 00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:25,759 Speaker 1: roughly at exposures of over a hundred nine degrees. If 737 00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:27,680 Speaker 1: she burned these kids with this thing when it was 738 00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:31,000 Speaker 1: going full blast, it could be upwards of two fair 739 00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:33,959 Speaker 1: Hunt and listen to this, correct me. If I'm wrong, 740 00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:36,480 Speaker 1: John Limley, because you know the facts so much better. 741 00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:42,200 Speaker 1: There's video, of course, there's the video, and the prosecutor 742 00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:46,840 Speaker 1: set in court she was spotted laughing with another coworker 743 00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:50,040 Speaker 1: during the incident, and it was captured on the daycare 744 00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:52,480 Speaker 1: surveillance video. So you got a glue gun around two 745 00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:56,000 Speaker 1: hundred degrees and she's burning the children with the glue 746 00:45:56,040 --> 00:46:00,080 Speaker 1: gun and then laughing, John Limley. A second childre and 747 00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:04,040 Speaker 1: Learning Place daycare worker has been arrested and charged with 748 00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:07,440 Speaker 1: a misdemeanor and she's the one accused of just standing 749 00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:12,799 Speaker 1: back idly during the glucon incident. The prosecutor says in 750 00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:17,440 Speaker 1: court that both women are seen on video on surveillance 751 00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:22,000 Speaker 1: video lapping during the incident. Let me understand something right now, 752 00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:27,200 Speaker 1: John Limley, what is she charged? What's the charges? The 753 00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:32,000 Speaker 1: charges right now are aggravated battery to a child five felony. 754 00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:36,120 Speaker 1: So what you're looking at on aggravated battery, Ash Ashley 755 00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:40,439 Speaker 1: woke out with me. Aggravated assault is when you put 756 00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:44,400 Speaker 1: someone in fear of serious bodily injury. That's typically alt 757 00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:47,440 Speaker 1: you shoot them or you stand them. Aggravated battery is 758 00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:52,080 Speaker 1: when you actually lose the use of say your finger, 759 00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:56,040 Speaker 1: your hand, your arm, your eye. Aggravated battery is even 760 00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:58,480 Speaker 1: more serious. What is she looking at? Because they're five 761 00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:02,200 Speaker 1: counts and five kids obviously looking at a longer sentence. 762 00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:05,719 Speaker 1: I'm a little surprised she wasn't also charged with child endangerment, 763 00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:08,520 Speaker 1: but you know, I'm glad she's been charged with the 764 00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:11,319 Speaker 1: aggravated battery. She's looking at a good number of years. 765 00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:13,760 Speaker 1: You know what's crazy. You know what else is crazy 766 00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:17,120 Speaker 1: to Dr Daniel Bibra if you look at this woman 767 00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:19,480 Speaker 1: and those are the ones that are more dangerous, sort 768 00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:23,760 Speaker 1: of the wolf in sheep's clothing. I guess so because 769 00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:27,960 Speaker 1: the parents trusted her. Do we know if John Limley 770 00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:33,000 Speaker 1: if the burn was from the hot metal or the 771 00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:36,040 Speaker 1: glue itself. I bet the glue that's gotten heated up 772 00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:38,920 Speaker 1: to about two hundred degrees that seems to be the case. 773 00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:43,799 Speaker 1: And at one point of parents have mentioned that when 774 00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:47,840 Speaker 1: they went to pick up their child Um, she actually 775 00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:51,759 Speaker 1: went to the trouble of asking if there had been 776 00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:55,560 Speaker 1: an incident at home in which there was you know, 777 00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:58,200 Speaker 1: a burn or something that was happening, sort of trying 778 00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:01,880 Speaker 1: to place the blame onto the parents and instead of 779 00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:05,399 Speaker 1: herself trying to get ahead of the game, so to speaking, Well, 780 00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:08,080 Speaker 1: I can see that happening. You know. The thing about 781 00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:10,400 Speaker 1: glue that makes it even worse is it continues to 782 00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:13,520 Speaker 1: burn because you can't get it off. I hear where 783 00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:15,759 Speaker 1: the defenses going. They're trying to say this happen at home. 784 00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:20,360 Speaker 1: But the likelihood that five children getting hurt from hot 785 00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:26,520 Speaker 1: glue at home and manifesting and the video manifesting the 786 00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:29,000 Speaker 1: injury all at the same time, plus the video, it's 787 00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:33,480 Speaker 1: not gonna work. Okay, we're on it. I want to 788 00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:38,560 Speaker 1: pause and thank our partners making today's program possible. One 789 00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:44,160 Speaker 1: eight hundred dentist. 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