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Speaker 1: Trust me, trust rate.

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Speaker 2: I'm like a swat person. I've never lied to you.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that one person has all the answers?

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Speaker 1: Don't welcome to trust me? The podcast about cults, extreme

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Speaker 1: belief and the abusive power from two people who've actually

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Speaker 1: experienced it. I am Lola Blanc and I am Megan Elizabeth,

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Speaker 1: and today we are talking to India Oxenberg, so exciting. India,

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Speaker 1: for those of you who don't know by now, was

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Speaker 1: in the cult Nexium, the now infamous sex cult that

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Speaker 1: masqueraded as a self help group headed by a man

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Speaker 1: named Keith Ranieri. It was best known for turning its

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Speaker 1: women into slaves and branding their bodies with Ranieri's initials,

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Speaker 1: which they did do to India. We're not going to

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Speaker 1: get too deep into the details of the story with her,

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Speaker 1: but Megan and I will do her best attempt at

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Speaker 1: a recap for you of what happened in nexim and

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Speaker 1: then we'll talk to India about what her perspective is.

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Speaker 3: Now, how she feels about the people in it.

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Speaker 1: And what it was like to face Keith in court.

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Speaker 1: We also talk about course of control in general, and

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Speaker 1: she'll tell us her advice for anyone who suspects they

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Speaker 1: may be in an abusive situation. And I'm sure a

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Speaker 1: lot of you have watched the Vow by now, but

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Speaker 1: India's the central character in the docuseriies Seduced, which is

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Speaker 1: out now on Stars.

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Speaker 4: Who Stars gives you the first seven days free to

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Speaker 4: watch this, so I've watched all of it immediately, and

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Speaker 4: then you know, we can take this part of last Night.

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Speaker 4: They have Jack and Jill, the Adam Sandler movie on it,

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Speaker 4: and I swear it is really funny, and so if

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Speaker 4: anyone wants to sign up for that and watch that

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Speaker 4: and just see if anyone can bond with me on it.

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Speaker 4: I'm feeling really isolated right now.

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Speaker 1: We Stars spokespeople now as always.

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Speaker 3: I guess I'm thinking I'm more of the Jack and

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Speaker 3: Jill spokesperson because it received a point three on Rotten Tomatoes.

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Speaker 1: What do you a? Three percent?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Three percent?

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Speaker 2: M M.

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Speaker 3: That's so that people, this.

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Speaker 4: Is the worst movie, like this is an insult to comedy.

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Speaker 1: But you liked it.

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Speaker 3: I was crying laughing.

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Speaker 1: What does this say about your sense of cure?

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 4: I don't know, so I don't I think I might

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Speaker 4: just have been like left out in the sun too long,

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Speaker 4: and maybe I've been in the house for too long,

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Speaker 4: like there must be something going on. But if anybody

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Speaker 4: would want to watch that and reach out to support

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Speaker 4: me in this, that would be great.

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Speaker 3: Stars seduced to watch it.

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Speaker 1: Other than joining the cult of Jack and Jill. What

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Speaker 1: is the cultiest thing that happened?

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Speaker 2: Oh?

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Speaker 3: Man?

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Speaker 4: Okay, Well, I am doing a little bit of business

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Speaker 4: deals lately and one of the people I'm working with

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Speaker 4: has an agent that works at a really big company,

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Speaker 4: and I've just found them to be very like, we're

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Speaker 4: the only people to try shut up the agents. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: move out of the way, And it's kind of just

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Speaker 4: culty to be honest, because they're not always right. They're giant,

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Speaker 4: they don't know what we're talking about, and it's frustrating.

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Speaker 1: Now, do you think that this is just this agent specifically,

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Speaker 1: or do you think this is all agents?

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Speaker 4: I think that agents have a tendency to be this way,

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Speaker 4: for sure. But I do think that there's three agencies

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Speaker 4: in Los Angeles that are triple and once you get

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Speaker 4: involved with them, none of anybody else's agents ideas anything

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Speaker 4: is going to make it into the mix. So you know,

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Speaker 4: but that's it's just interesting how power dynamics can get

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Speaker 4: so entrenched and to question it would seem obscene.

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Speaker 1: I mean, for those of us who like desperately want

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Speaker 1: lit representation, I am available for lit representation. Those people

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Speaker 1: at those particular agencies have so much power, and I

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Speaker 1: think I don't think like all agents are whatever, but

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Speaker 1: I do think you have to have a certain personality

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Speaker 1: type to decide that you want to become absolutely gent.

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Speaker 3: Yeah it's a shark mentality.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe just being in business in general, you have

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Speaker 1: to have a little bit of that.

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Speaker 4: I feel like, And don't get me wrong, I want

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Speaker 4: a shark behind me all the way. It's just when

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Speaker 4: you get in these positions where actually they're wrong and

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Speaker 4: you can't get that across it's impossible. Lola, what's the

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Speaker 4: cultiest thing that's happened to you this week?

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Speaker 1: The cultiest thing that happened to me is actually being

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Speaker 1: freed from a cult, being freed from the cult of

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Speaker 1: a country that is led by Donald Trump. You're free, baby,

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Speaker 1: I mean technically we're not free until January. See what happens.

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Speaker 1: We're recording this the day after it was officially called

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Speaker 1: for Joe Biden who like, Look, let's be honest, Biden

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Speaker 1: was not my candidate. He was actually one of my

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Speaker 1: last choices. And I don't fucking care. I'm so happy

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Speaker 1: because listening to his speech last night, I I was like,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, it's just like a good like a

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Speaker 1: normal person, Like a normal person who's capable of expressing

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Speaker 1: empathy and capable of kindness and not like fixated every

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Speaker 1: single moment on how to please himself and how to

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Speaker 1: bully everyone around him. So yesterday, I don't know if

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Speaker 1: you partied in the streets at all, but I fucking

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Speaker 1: partied in this.

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Speaker 4: Oh yes, I have the time of my life. I'm

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Speaker 4: usually too shy to like honk, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 4: Like I've always wanted to be one of those people

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Speaker 4: who honks when they pass people, but I'm always too shy,

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Speaker 4: And yesterday I was just by myself, like leaning on

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Speaker 4: the horn.

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Speaker 1: Being too shy to honk is hilarious. So zero stakes, no.

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Speaker 4: Because it's sometimes like when you do honk, they all

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Speaker 4: make eye contacted, the mid cheer harder, and then you're

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Speaker 4: like committed to driving in a straight line and like

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Speaker 4: waving and like supporting.

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Speaker 3: It's a lot so I felt good about it.

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Speaker 4: I got out of my car, I danced a little

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Speaker 4: bit with people, and just such a fun day.

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Speaker 1: I danced at a gas station for four hours.

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Speaker 3: Which gas station was it? On holl of her?

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Speaker 4: Yes, okay, I saw that was like everybody was on

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Speaker 4: top of stuff. Do it was popping off. How did

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Speaker 4: everybody find out about that place?

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Speaker 1: Because well, I was driving around with my friend looking

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Speaker 1: for like celebrations. But then I saw on Instagram that

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Speaker 1: two of my friends said they were in Los Felis,

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Speaker 1: and I saw that it was a gas station, So

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Speaker 1: I had a hunch it was this one gas station.

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Speaker 1: My friend was one of the people in the cars.

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Speaker 1: There was one car. They fucked up that car. Whoa,

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Speaker 1: but she was willingly she like donated her car for

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Speaker 1: the cause of celebration.

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Speaker 3: Wow. Yeah, so fun.

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Speaker 1: So anyway, yeah, I'm just like, oh my god, we're

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Speaker 1: free from our cult leader. We're free from this man

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Speaker 1: who is a mob boss. Essentially every single abusive characteristic

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Speaker 1: that I have ever experienced in my life. Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: embodies that characteristic like to at So I feel so

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Speaker 1: relieved I've escaped from the cults all as well. I mean, look,

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Speaker 1: all is not well yeah, yeah, yeah, there's more weak

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Speaker 1: to do. Let us celebrate, let us be relieved anyway, guys. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so for this interview, we decided not to. We had

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Speaker 1: very limited time with India and we didn't want to

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Speaker 1: make her have to tell this whole story beat by

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Speaker 1: beat again because she's been doing so much of this

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Speaker 1: and it's a very traumatic series of events. So we're

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Speaker 1: just going to give a quick rundown. Yeah. So about

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Speaker 1: a decade ago, India Oxenburg is nineteen years old. Her mom,

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Speaker 1: Katherin Oxenburg, the actress Dynasty from Dynasty, takes her to

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Speaker 1: this self help entrepreneurship course from a program called Nexium.

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Speaker 1: A family friend apparently told them about it and told

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Speaker 1: them it was great and it was just like the

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Speaker 1: self help thing that everybody was doing. So they go

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Speaker 1: together and it's full of high status people.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: You have that guy who made what the bleep do

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Speaker 1: we know?

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Speaker 3: Mark?

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Speaker 1: You have other actresses. Alison Mack was on Smallville and

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Speaker 1: it's headed by this man named Keith Raniering. We touched

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Speaker 1: on this a little bit in My Mom's episode, but

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Speaker 1: we didn't actually go into much detail, but basically I

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Speaker 1: knew Keith as a kid. He kind of dated my

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Speaker 1: mom and he was trying to recruit her to move

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Speaker 1: to Albany back in like two thousand and one, which

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Speaker 1: thankfully she did not do. My mom and I both

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Speaker 1: believe he was the smartest man in the world, because

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Speaker 1: that's how he advertised himself. Anyway, By the time India

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Speaker 1: and her mom go to this first session, Keith seems

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Speaker 1: to have found a cure for Tourette's. There was a

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Speaker 1: man who had horrible Thrette syndrome and whatever they were

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Speaker 1: doing it worked. He was cured. It all seemed pretty amazing.

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Speaker 1: So the Dalai Lama had come to visit next to

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Speaker 1: him by this point. So they enter this group. Everyone

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Speaker 1: calls Keith Vanguard and they call his number two woman,

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Speaker 1: Nancy Salzman, who's one of the main teachers prefect, which

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Speaker 1: was like, sure, a little weird, but they seem to

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Speaker 1: be really helping people, so like, who cares. India doesn't

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Speaker 1: necessarily have like an especially close relationship with Keith for

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Speaker 1: a while, right.

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Speaker 4: Right, She signs up for another chorus after the five

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Speaker 4: day initial one. She has her mom do it with her. Somehow,

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Speaker 4: she keeps getting pulled into more and more courses until

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Speaker 4: eventually until eventually she's a full flag. She moves to

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Speaker 4: Albany and she wants to be a coach.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So there's a ranking system with like sash colors and

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Speaker 1: stripes where you move up, kind of like aspiring to

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Speaker 1: have a black belt in karate and instituce. She describes

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Speaker 1: getting stuck at a certain level. She makes like great

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Speaker 1: progress at first, and then she gets stuck at a

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Speaker 1: certain level.

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Speaker 3: Do you remember that?

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Speaker 1: And then so she starts to become desperate, like how

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Speaker 1: do I get to this higher level? What's wrong with me?

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Speaker 1: That I'm not moving up anymore? And they're gaslighting her

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Speaker 1: and there's essentially, from my understanding, they' essentially telling her

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Speaker 1: that she's being held back by her limiting beliefs and

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Speaker 1: she's being held back by you know whatever.

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Speaker 4: So she needs to do more classes, more work on herself,

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Speaker 4: deeper into this dark, dark place.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but at first, you know, it doesn't get into

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Speaker 1: the slave territory for the first five years. But what

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Speaker 1: they are doing is they're working her all day every

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Speaker 1: day until like she's physically exhausted, emotionally exhausted, until one

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Speaker 1: day Alison Mack, who is you know? I thought it

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Speaker 1: was very cool. She's like very high up in the

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Speaker 1: She's very charismatic, very charismatic, you know, kind of famous whenever,

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Speaker 1: and all the interviews ps, everybody has so much seduced immediately. Yes, great,

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Speaker 1: the vow is great too, But I would like, she's

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Speaker 1: like the cool girl in high school that you're scared

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Speaker 1: to say, not too totally, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 4: She's she's the like head of the softball team senior

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Speaker 4: year who's like you're a freshmen and they take you

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Speaker 4: out and torture you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: It does a great job of demonstrating that because I

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Speaker 1: was watching and I was like, dude, yeah, if Allison

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Speaker 1: was like terrifying, don't you want to do you want

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Speaker 1: to come join this like elite special secret group for

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Speaker 1: women and she's the cool girl in school, Like you're

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Speaker 1: gonna say yes, especially if you feel like you haven't

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Speaker 1: been progressing and you're not you know, there's something wrong

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Speaker 1: with you and this is an opportunity. And I'm skipping

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Speaker 1: past the part where there was a society for women

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Speaker 1: jeness jeness. Yeah, and they did a variety of abusive

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Speaker 1: things along the way, where like they had the women

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Speaker 1: to come to the men's program for a weekend. I

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Speaker 1: want to.

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Speaker 4: Say, you mean when they started working with men and

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Speaker 4: women together to show women how they've been how men

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Speaker 4: have actually been treated. Is that way we're taking out Yeah,

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Speaker 4: I mean I think that was like the course. I

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Speaker 4: think that was a really long thing.

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Speaker 1: I feel like it was like a weekend or a

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Speaker 1: week or like an intensive where all the women went

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Speaker 1: there and were basically shamed. India was shamed for wearing

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Speaker 1: pink converse and she was harassed. It was like humiliated, humiliated. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I just absolutely humiliated. We're not doing a good job

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Speaker 1: of describing how horrible it was.

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Speaker 3: Bad.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, genus is bad. Watch The Deuce for a more

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Speaker 1: in depth description doing lot.

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Speaker 4: I mean it was like essentially one woman had to

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Speaker 4: sleep on a dog bed if she if her husband

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Speaker 4: thought she had done anything bad.

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Speaker 1: So the men were given free license essentially to just

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Speaker 1: take out their anger on the women, and punishment then

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Speaker 1: becomes a central tenet of the group. I mean it

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Speaker 1: kind of had been all long, but it became more

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Speaker 1: overt at this point. This group that is ostensibly for women,

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Speaker 1: but of course Keith is the one masterminding it all.

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Speaker 1: He's at the head of all of it. So India's

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Speaker 1: having trouble moving up in the ranks.

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Speaker 4: And then Alison invited India to come to DUS, which

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Speaker 4: is this super secret women only, amazing hand picked selection

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Speaker 4: of people. In this format, they're on very restricted diets

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Speaker 4: and there's these readiness drills to be ready at any

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Speaker 4: moment to respond.

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Speaker 1: Yet to respond over text immediately at any hour of

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Speaker 1: the day, and they're punished if they don't respond in time,

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Speaker 1: even if it's in the middle of the night. If

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Speaker 1: they don't respond in like the requisite amount of time,

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Speaker 1: that then they've done something wrong. Yeah, So Allison invites

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Speaker 1: her to DOS so exciting special elite group. It's going

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Speaker 1: to be the thing that really helps her get to Procter,

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Speaker 1: which is the top level of the SASH.

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Speaker 4: So she can start working and making money and make

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Speaker 4: this work for her.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but what Alison tells her is she's going to

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Speaker 1: be her slave, and she's going to be alison slave.

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Speaker 1: India is going to be Alison's slave. Yes, they have

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Speaker 1: a five hundred calorie a day calorie restriction.

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Speaker 4: Which ps is what I drink in the morning and

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Speaker 4: my coffee and drink. Alison is already like stick thin.

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Speaker 4: By this point, she's like clearly wasting away. But so

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Speaker 4: India thinks that she has.

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Speaker 1: To do this and has to ask for permission to eat,

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Speaker 1: and all the women start just kind of wasting away.

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Speaker 1: And India has to text Allison every night and every

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Speaker 1: morning saying good night Master, good morning Master, and India

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Speaker 1: feels uncomfortable saying master, so she abbreviates it to em.

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Speaker 1: She's like, this is weird. But every time she thinks

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Speaker 1: it's weird, Alison tells her that it's her fucking problem.

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Speaker 1: And I mean, but you know, in a more manipulative,

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Speaker 1: like sugarcoated wave than that.

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Speaker 4: Well, it's so easy to convince people like, hey, you

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Speaker 4: have all these limitations. Don't you see how you are

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Speaker 4: doing this to yourself? Don't you see see how I

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Speaker 4: can help you? And the truth is it makes sense

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Speaker 4: in some weird, fucked up funnel vision way. So if

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Speaker 4: you're hungry, and if you're living this tiny life, you're

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Speaker 4: like ocastic exhausted.

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Speaker 1: She's also taking classes all the time, She's teaching all

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Speaker 1: the time. She's like her day starts at five am

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Speaker 1: and is NonStop. She like doesn't even have time to eat,

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Speaker 1: so then Alison tells her that she needs to, uh go,

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Speaker 1: what do seduce?

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Speaker 4: So yeah, so, so Alison tells her that one of

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Speaker 4: her assignments is to go and seduce Keith.

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Speaker 1: So she so India has to go and let Keith

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Speaker 1: take a photo of her naked. And that's where it

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Speaker 1: starts to get like extra extra, extra dark, and she

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Speaker 1: basically is forced into these sexual encounters where Keith assaults her.

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Speaker 1: And to clarify to anyone who doesn't understand how it's

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Speaker 1: assault if she thinks that she's consenting. If you're under

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Speaker 1: coercive control, you cannot consent. If somebody has complete power

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Speaker 1: over your life and you don't believe that you are

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Speaker 1: allowed to say no or you are allowed to reject

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Speaker 1: that person in any way, you cannot give consent.

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Speaker 4: And also I think it's important to note they had

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Speaker 4: to give collateral. We haven't even mentioned got collateral. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: so they have. Basically all of these women were required

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Speaker 4: to give blackmail information.

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Speaker 1: On themselves, nude photos of themselves, family secrets, anything that

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Speaker 1: would just absolutely humiliate them or ruin their lives, ruin

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Speaker 1: their family's lives if it were released. And we will

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Speaker 1: ask India about this in a bit, but they have

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Speaker 1: them do these this like technique called ems, and it's

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Speaker 1: where they're in front of a whole group of people

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Speaker 1: and they're forced to like confront their trauma in front

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Speaker 1: of everyone. And yet and India will tell us more

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Speaker 1: about that, but it's basically just a systematic method of

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Speaker 1: like breaking down people's identity, making them feel like, how

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Speaker 1: do I even say it?

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Speaker 4: Uh, like they're crazy, making the Zincs are completely overridden

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Speaker 4: by something better, and that they have to depend on

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Speaker 4: the nexium on the nexam on nexium to give them

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Speaker 4: their truth right because they're fucked up right.

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Speaker 1: And so eventually it gets to a point and we're

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Speaker 1: probably going out of order here, but you can watch

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Speaker 1: the douce and get it in the proper order to

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Speaker 1: watch the dos. Eventually gets to the point where Alison

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Speaker 1: tells India that there is going to be a ritual

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Speaker 1: and they do brand India's flesh on on her what

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Speaker 1: is this area, hipbone on her hip bone, and they've

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Speaker 1: done it to a number of other women, and the

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Speaker 1: women don't even know that it's Keith R. Nieri's initials.

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Speaker 1: They think it's just some symbol that's useful what the

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Speaker 1: documentary reveals is that there was a first line of

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Speaker 1: slaves that were directly under Keith. Keith is the grand master,

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Speaker 1: and so he has his line of slaves, and then

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Speaker 1: those women in the first line all have their own slaves.

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Speaker 1: So India is in the second line of slaves underneath

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Speaker 1: this first line in Alison Max is in the first line.

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Speaker 1: India is then also assigned three slaves. And fortunately it

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Speaker 1: never got to the point with her where she did

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Speaker 1: anything close to what Alison did to her. Yes, but

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Speaker 1: it was he was setting up this like pyramid, this

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Speaker 1: like slavery pyramid that he was at the top of,

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Speaker 1: and he would instruct the women to tell their slaves

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Speaker 1: that he had nothing to do with it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, nobody knew that he was the grand father grand master,

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Speaker 4: you know. They thought this was just for women, and

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Speaker 4: that Keith wasn't even interested in sex. So he wouldn't

356
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Speaker 4: these pictures that you were sending him of you nude,

357
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Speaker 4: they weren't sexually interesting them. He was like a monk,

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Speaker 4: he has sex stress right, literally, he's the opposite of that.

359
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Speaker 4: And he's you know, a pro he's a predator.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and so when it starts to get sexual everybody.

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Speaker 1: I can just imagine how confusing that would be because

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Speaker 1: you're like, but he's he's this like enlightened being who

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Speaker 1: isn't sexual? Why is he doing this to me? This

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Speaker 1: doesn't this must be for my own good, especially after

365
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Speaker 1: again like such taxing, constant physical emotional exhaustion, Like I

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Speaker 1: just don't know how a person would not be completely

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Speaker 1: broken down by that point. Absolutely okay, And to make

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Speaker 1: a long story, a slightly shorter story, but still pretty long,

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Speaker 1: India's mother, Catherine essentially found out she was in a

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Speaker 1: cult because another woman in the in the group came

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Speaker 1: out and Catherine tried to tell India that she was

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Speaker 1: in a cult when India came back to La one

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Speaker 1: time and it did not go over well. So India

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Speaker 1: goes back to New York, digs are heels in deeper,

375
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Speaker 1: and Catherine goes public and she starts talking to the media.

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Speaker 1: And then finally, after this this website, the Frank Report

377
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Speaker 1: had been covering it for a long time, the New

378
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Speaker 1: York Time finally covered it. I remember my mom called

379
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Speaker 1: me when that happened. She was so excited. And it

380
00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:07,080
Speaker 1: was only when people started coming out about Nextian publicly

381
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Speaker 1: that India reconnected with her mom and slowly began the

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Speaker 1: process of deprogramming. Just to further demonstrate how much of

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Speaker 1: a monster Keith was. For those of you who don't

384
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Speaker 1: know the extent of it, here are some other things

385
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Speaker 1: he did. He had sex with three teenage sisters from Mexico,

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Speaker 1: he impregnated them, He forced two of them to get

387
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Speaker 1: an abortion, and he kept one imprisoned in a room

388
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Speaker 1: for eighteen months. And Nancy Salzman apparently was her like

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Speaker 1: the one who was overseeing that and holding her captive.

390
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Speaker 1: So that's the gist of it. It is really horrific

391
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Speaker 1: and watched the documentary also, the vow is also good,

392
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Speaker 1: but I think Seduce does a better job at really

393
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Speaker 1: getting into the nitty gritty of how what happened.

394
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Speaker 3: Absolutely, and Jack and Jill also on.

395
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Speaker 1: Stars Humanizing, So I.

396
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Speaker 4: Would love to hear what everyone's thoughts are on the documentary.

397
00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:11,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, So anyway, hopefully, hopefully that gives you a sense

398
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Speaker 1: of what happened. So we're just going to talk to

399
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Speaker 1: India now about a little bit more about what happened

400
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Speaker 1: after and how she sees it now and what her

401
00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:33,359
Speaker 1: perspective is. So let's get into that. Well, first of all,

402
00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:35,440
Speaker 1: I just want to say thank you for coming on.

403
00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:37,800
Speaker 1: It must be so exhausting to be talking about this

404
00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:40,800
Speaker 1: stuff all the time, and I'm so grateful that we

405
00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:43,920
Speaker 1: have you. So you are in Nexium. You're in this

406
00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:47,359
Speaker 1: cult run by this monster Keith Nieri for seven years.

407
00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:50,080
Speaker 1: I knew Keith nieriy is a kid, but I was

408
00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:53,520
Speaker 1: never involved in Nexium in any way. My mom signed

409
00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:56,760
Speaker 1: a slave contract but then like freaked out and and

410
00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:59,880
Speaker 1: like left the next day. But she's actually in seduced

411
00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:01,480
Speaker 1: or like thirty seconds.

412
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Speaker 2: I know, I heard this story and it was so

413
00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:08,320
Speaker 2: shocking to me because actually one of the other women

414
00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:10,560
Speaker 2: that I work with and the team, she told me,

415
00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:14,160
Speaker 2: you know that woman, the blonde woman, is actually Lola's mom,

416
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Speaker 2: and she signed a slave contract with Keith like twenty

417
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Speaker 2: years prior to DOS even existing, and I just thought,

418
00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:25,680
Speaker 2: I just thought, like wow, I mean, I'm just so

419
00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:28,040
Speaker 2: happy that we got the sentencing that we got the

420
00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:31,360
Speaker 2: last Tuesday, because this man is so dangerous and he's

421
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Speaker 2: been doing this for so long.

422
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Speaker 1: Right, And I actually think that kind of answers the

423
00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:37,760
Speaker 1: question that you had, which was Megan was wondering, like

424
00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:41,639
Speaker 1: is this something that he you know, developed the idea

425
00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:44,200
Speaker 1: for over time, or was he planning it all along

426
00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:46,760
Speaker 1: and with the context of knowing that he was trying

427
00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:50,119
Speaker 1: to make people his slaves twenty years earlier, Like, I

428
00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:52,200
Speaker 1: think it's pretty clear that this was his plan all

429
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:55,600
Speaker 1: along and what an elaborate Yeah.

430
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Speaker 3: So the like, the helping the world thing was totally bullshit?

431
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:04,080
Speaker 2: Is that shield? I mean basically, Nexium was the umbrella

432
00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:07,840
Speaker 2: company to multiple other companies within it, and one of

433
00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:11,720
Speaker 2: those was called ESP Executive Success Program, which was kind

434
00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:15,760
Speaker 2: of like their consumer facing product, and it felt very legitimate.

435
00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:18,600
Speaker 2: They had, you know, credentialed.

436
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Speaker 5: People there who were entrepreneurs, were actors, who were from

437
00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:23,919
Speaker 5: all walks of life.

438
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Speaker 2: But we were invited by a friend that we trusted,

439
00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:31,440
Speaker 2: and so initially our guard was down because like anything,

440
00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:34,200
Speaker 2: I mean, if your friend says, hey, go to that restaurant,

441
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:36,480
Speaker 2: you're gonna be like, okay, cool. I mean, it was

442
00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:41,359
Speaker 2: as innocent as that. And then from there I was recruited, well,

443
00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:44,240
Speaker 2: I was targeted to be a coach, and that's when

444
00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:47,679
Speaker 2: my mother and my path took a very different turn.

445
00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:51,639
Speaker 2: I think sometimes people think that maybe DOS was introduced

446
00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:54,280
Speaker 2: right away and that's I think a common misconception because

447
00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:56,440
Speaker 2: that was the way it was for me. I mean,

448
00:22:56,480 --> 00:23:00,480
Speaker 2: we're talking about five five years of grooming before I

449
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:03,280
Speaker 2: was even recruited to Doss by Alison Mack. So this

450
00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:05,200
Speaker 2: is a long process of indoctrination.

451
00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:09,280
Speaker 1: When you first went to that first retreat, what was

452
00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:12,680
Speaker 1: appealing to you? What were they promising you that made

453
00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:13,440
Speaker 1: you want to come back?

454
00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:16,879
Speaker 2: It wasn't so much the first five days that was

455
00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:19,560
Speaker 2: the thing that got me. It was actually the intro

456
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:22,480
Speaker 2: presentation where I said yes and my mother and I

457
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:26,000
Speaker 2: both signed up, that really spoke to me. I was

458
00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:29,000
Speaker 2: nineteen at the time. I had just left college in Boston.

459
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:31,440
Speaker 2: I was looking for direction, and I was feeling really

460
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:33,920
Speaker 2: aimless in my life in general, like I just didn't

461
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:36,239
Speaker 2: know what to do like most nineteen year olds. Now

462
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:41,320
Speaker 2: I realized very clearly. Yeah, And so I went to

463
00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:43,320
Speaker 2: this program with my mom thinking that we were going

464
00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:47,399
Speaker 2: to get you know, skills, executive skills to help us

465
00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:50,760
Speaker 2: in our personal lives and our business lives, whatever that

466
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:54,399
Speaker 2: was going to be. I had dabbled in production and

467
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:57,280
Speaker 2: food oriented things, but I was just kind of feeling lost,

468
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:01,919
Speaker 2: and what they pitched was like they said it was

469
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:05,200
Speaker 2: like a practical MBA, like this was going to be

470
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:09,119
Speaker 2: the replacement for college for me. So that really targeted

471
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:12,640
Speaker 2: me specifically because that's the transition zone that I was in.

472
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:16,280
Speaker 2: And I think oftentimes people think that you need to

473
00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:20,520
Speaker 2: be you know, stupid or naive or you know, vulnerable

474
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:24,240
Speaker 2: in general or broken to become susceptible to something like this,

475
00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:27,000
Speaker 2: but it's not the case. I mean, there was a

476
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:31,280
Speaker 2: whole Harvard contingency within NEXIM and it's more like wrong place,

477
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:32,200
Speaker 2: wrong time right.

478
00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:36,119
Speaker 1: It's fascinating because there are so many I think people

479
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,120
Speaker 1: it's easier for them to think of cult members as

480
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:41,720
Speaker 1: people who are, you know, in need of something, but

481
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:46,200
Speaker 1: these are like highly successful people. These are incredibly smart people.

482
00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:49,400
Speaker 1: These are people with like everything going on for them,

483
00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:53,400
Speaker 1: and it's it's kind of the opposite. It's like everyone

484
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:56,440
Speaker 1: is actually doing so great that Yeah, it's.

485
00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:58,840
Speaker 3: The high drive comes and bites you in the end.

486
00:24:59,160 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 3: In the end.

487
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:03,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, And what you don't realize through that process is

488
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:06,679
Speaker 2: that ultimately you're just serving the cult and you're serving

489
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 2: the leader, and eventually you're not actually doing anything for

490
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:14,199
Speaker 2: yourself anymore. But by the time I realized that it

491
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:17,000
Speaker 2: was too late. I was already compromised with the collateral.

492
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:20,160
Speaker 2: I was instructed to live in Albany. I didn't have

493
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:22,560
Speaker 2: the choice to leave at that point. It was taken

494
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:22,919
Speaker 2: from me.

495
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,919
Speaker 1: It's complicated, yea, yeah, of course, of course. Can you

496
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,680
Speaker 1: walk us through ems? What the what was an EM?

497
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:30,680
Speaker 1: Can you tell us about that?

498
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 2: Yeah? You know, nobody's asked me that question. So cool.

499
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:40,880
Speaker 2: So an EM EM was called it's called an exploration

500
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:45,000
Speaker 2: of meaning, and what it was within NEXIM was kind

501
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:50,640
Speaker 2: of like a therapeutic process that also involved some hypnosis.

502
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,440
Speaker 2: But I'm giving you like what I know it is now.

503
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:56,960
Speaker 2: But what it was then was a tool that they

504
00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 2: used to disconnect any comfortable or inappropriate reactions that you

505
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 2: were having to things that you thought were getting in

506
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:07,960
Speaker 2: your way. So if you sorry, My grandma's calling me

507
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:10,960
Speaker 2: right now. Okay there.

508
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:14,280
Speaker 3: PS love her so much.

509
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:19,240
Speaker 2: I'm so happy that we got to sell her. She's

510
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 2: so amazing.

511
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 1: Ah, she's very cool.

512
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:25,320
Speaker 2: She's an awesome woman. I miss her. She's still she

513
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:26,919
Speaker 2: We haven't been able to see each other in so

514
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:30,359
Speaker 2: long because of COVID, like everybody else. But so the

515
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:35,920
Speaker 2: EM was like Nexium's crown jewel inside of the community,

516
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:39,719
Speaker 2: and they would use that tool in the intensives, and

517
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:43,120
Speaker 2: then once you were through the first five day intensive,

518
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:47,600
Speaker 2: you could purchase ems from people who were called e MPs,

519
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:50,440
Speaker 2: which was like a practitioner without a you know, without

520
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:54,959
Speaker 2: a license obviously, because nobody was licensed, as we know,

521
00:26:55,640 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 2: and it was they cobbled together some things from scientology,

522
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 2: she somethings from NLP, somethings from hypnosis, and actually therapy too,

523
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:08,800
Speaker 2: and Nancy kind of promoted herself as a therapist when

524
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:13,320
Speaker 2: she actually is not. And it's a very it's a

525
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:17,919
Speaker 2: very interesting thing to try to understand now from the

526
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 2: outside because I see it as very invasive and really

527
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,119
Speaker 2: unethical because what they were doing was kind of putting

528
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,879
Speaker 2: you back into your trauma and then changing your feeling

529
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 2: about it. But it actually disconnects your feeling to the reactions,

530
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:38,199
Speaker 2: so you go numb instead of thinking that you're healing.

531
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 2: So the more and more I did these ems, I

532
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 2: actually thought that I was getting better because I wasn't

533
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:47,160
Speaker 2: having reactions to things anymore. But what was really going

534
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:50,680
Speaker 2: on was I was disconnecting and disassociating from my own

535
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 2: emotions and instinct, so I just like cannot stress how

536
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 2: important it is to have licensed practitioners, like do not

537
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 2: let anybody tamper with your brain, Like it's not right.

538
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:06,280
Speaker 2: They should not be allowed. You have to you have

539
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 2: to be really vigilant about who you let help you

540
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:11,879
Speaker 2: and guide you. And so that's something that I've learned

541
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 2: for sure.

542
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's a really important point because in

543
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:17,680
Speaker 1: a lot of these groups, I think that there are

544
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 1: some truths. They're like finding some truths so that it

545
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 1: feels really legitimate, like they're using elements of therapy, and

546
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,720
Speaker 1: it's like that old you know, biblical saying two truths

547
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,240
Speaker 1: and a lie. You know, it's like that's probably not

548
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:36,159
Speaker 1: the Biblical SI, you know what I mean, old the

549
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 1: saying saying I.

550
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 2: Know what you're talking about. And they were really good

551
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 2: at that, because who would sign up if there wasn't

552
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,200
Speaker 2: anything good? I mean, and I don't lie about that.

553
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 2: I Mean, it's pretty obvious in the docu series that

554
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:51,360
Speaker 2: I was really into it in the beginning because I

555
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 2: thought what we were doing was great and I thought

556
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 2: that I had found the thing that was going to

557
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:58,680
Speaker 2: help me grow and improve as a person. And I

558
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 2: trusted these people and they were my authority figures, and

559
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 2: I really gave myself over to them because I was nineteen.

560
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 2: So what am I supposed to do question all of

561
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,200
Speaker 2: these people who are older and more successful than me, right,

562
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 2: And so I think that that's one of the things

563
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:19,479
Speaker 2: that made me more vulnerable maybe than others. But there

564
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 2: are men, there are women, all races, all education levels.

565
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:26,959
Speaker 2: I mean, this was a very diverse group of people.

566
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 1: How did the people around you influence your critical thinking?

567
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 1: Like what were some of the grooming tactics that you

568
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 1: can recognize now that you obviously could not see at

569
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 1: the time.

570
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 2: Well, from the beginning, they separated me and my mom,

571
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 2: and that is a strategy that I now know as

572
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:52,480
Speaker 2: parental alienation, and it's very common with predators and predatory groups.

573
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 2: So that's definitely something to be aware of. And actually

574
00:29:57,360 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 2: in my book, I lay out all the red flag

575
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 2: that I didn't see at the time, so that it's

576
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,520
Speaker 2: really clear and like obvious to people what to look for.

577
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 1: Tell us the name of your book, but finish your

578
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:08,960
Speaker 1: thought first.

579
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 2: It's called Still Learning, and it's an audio book that

580
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 2: I wrote and recorded with my own voice, which was

581
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:19,960
Speaker 2: really cathartic and also tiring, but my first time ever

582
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 2: doing it, and I really enjoyed it. But the book

583
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 2: is for me. It was like my first entry into

584
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 2: therapy and processing what had happened to me because I

585
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 2: couldn't speak about it for a long time, like I

586
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 2: couldn't get the words out, but I felt really safe

587
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 2: to just like write it down. The book for me,

588
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 2: I'm really proud of it because I put like my

589
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 2: whole heart into it and I was very raw and

590
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 2: very open about my experiences there. But I also wanted

591
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 2: it to be informational so that anyone who read it

592
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 2: could identify and avoid these types of people and groups.

593
00:30:56,560 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 2: So I hope it helps. Yeah, and your previous question

594
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 2: for one, they do that. I mean, this is kind

595
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 2: of an outdated term, but it's called love bombing, and

596
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 2: I'm sure.

597
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 5: You've heard of it where they over there's over flattery

598
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 5: and they're like, oh my god, you're so amazing, you're

599
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,520
Speaker 5: so good at this, you should be a coach and

600
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:19,960
Speaker 5: red flag Like these people didn't know me at all

601
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 5: and they were telling me where.

602
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 2: I should go with my life, like watch out. I mean,

603
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 2: then again, it wasn't until I was in Doss that

604
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:33,960
Speaker 2: they started to implement more of the aggressive indoctrination and

605
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 2: mind control tactics like sleep deprivision, food deprivision, stress, the

606
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 2: random readiness drills. All of those things are actually things

607
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 2: that they use in terrorist organizations and very high control groups.

608
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 2: So I did not know that at the time. The

609
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:53,920
Speaker 2: way that they spun it was that this was for

610
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:57,520
Speaker 2: my personal growth and that I was going to create

611
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 2: discipline and stamina and all of these positive things that

612
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 2: they had, you know, an answer for everything, a justification

613
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 2: for anything.

614
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 3: Well, I have a question about that.

615
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:09,840
Speaker 4: I mean, you said that they spun it a certain way.

616
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 4: Do you think that anyone in your life at that

617
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 4: time was completely like people above you oblivious as well,

618
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 4: or did everyone kind of know the score?

619
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 2: You know? That's what that was one of the things

620
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:27,480
Speaker 2: that Keith did very well. And I don't like giving

621
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:30,560
Speaker 2: him a lot of credit, but I do think he

622
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 2: was very good at compartmentalizing information so that the right

623
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 2: hand didn't know what the left hand was doing. And

624
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 2: that's what crime bosses do, So they kind of employ

625
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 2: their henchmen, They give them a little bit of information.

626
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 2: Then they have the people who are doing their bidding.

627
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 2: They only know so much that's how he ran his organization,

628
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:54,480
Speaker 2: and so most of the time people didn't know that

629
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 2: they were being abused, and they were in the same neighborhood, right.

630
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:03,760
Speaker 1: Right, so scary. One of the things that really oh

631
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 1: my god, my internet connection again, No, I won't spectrum,

632
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 1: you're going down. One of the things that really resonated

633
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 1: with me about your experiences and the way that you

634
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 1: were describing them was the tactic of I mean, they

635
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 1: did this in myriad ways, but the way that they

636
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 1: taught you not to trust what was happening in your

637
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 1: own body, and the way that they made you feel

638
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 1: like your own red flags and like that pain in

639
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 1: your chest you described when you were being assaulted, like

640
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:39,360
Speaker 1: that was something that was that you needed to overcome

641
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 1: instead of your actual intuition telling you what was what

642
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 1: was actually happening.

643
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:47,600
Speaker 2: Gas Lighting, it's straight up here. Yeah, And like we're

644
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 2: so used to it, and unfortunately, I mean, it makes

645
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 2: me sad to say this, but I feel like women

646
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 2: especially are kind of conditioned to that because you're often

647
00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 2: you're often told that you're crazy for having that feeling

648
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 2: or that your intuition is off. And it makes me

649
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 2: sad that that is what we're taught to believe or

650
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:11,279
Speaker 2: that maybe we don't have the self worth that we

651
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:14,839
Speaker 2: believe that we really deserve and have, And so it's

652
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:18,839
Speaker 2: easy to be manipulated that way, especially when you are

653
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 2: when the person is in a position of authority like

654
00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:25,400
Speaker 2: a you know, like a Jeffrey Ebstein or a Harvey Weinstein,

655
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 2: where they have control over your resources, or your time

656
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 2: or your reputation. I mean, it's pretty vulnerable to be

657
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:35,600
Speaker 2: in that place. I think it happens to women a lot,

658
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:36,880
Speaker 2: a lot more than I knew.

659
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:40,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure, did anyone's collateral get released?

660
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 2: Well, technically yes, because that there They leaked a video

661
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 2: of Sarah Edmondson's branding to the Mexican press and a

662
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 2: part of that video was on the news. So that's collateral,

663
00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 2: So technically yes, And that's that's a scary thing because

664
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:04,520
Speaker 2: we don't know who has our collateral, how many copies

665
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:07,759
Speaker 2: there are, I mean, there's probably multiple. I know that

666
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:10,480
Speaker 2: Nikki Klein has some of it, and so I just

667
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:14,200
Speaker 2: think that anybody who is willing to leave a cult

668
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:18,680
Speaker 2: or speak out against somebody like a Keith ran Nieri

669
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:21,399
Speaker 2: is just really brave. And I mean all the men

670
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 2: and women who came out before me. I have so

671
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 2: much respect for them because it's really hard.

672
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 1: It is, and I that's just something I want to

673
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 1: say to you too, because I you know, through my

674
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 1: mom over the years, I've met a lot of a

675
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:37,399
Speaker 1: lot of different survivors, and it's very common and very

676
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 1: understandable for it to take people fifteen twenty years to

677
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 1: come to terms with what's happened to them at all,

678
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 1: let alone be able to speak out publicly about it.

679
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:47,799
Speaker 1: So I just think that you are so brave and

680
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 1: the fact that this soon after, like you're able to

681
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:55,720
Speaker 1: speak out against these like and eloquently, and yeah, it's beg.

682
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 2: I really put in a lot of work because I

683
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:02,480
Speaker 2: just I all honesty. I mean, it was messy and

684
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:06,400
Speaker 2: healing is not easy, and it's ongoing. Like in a

685
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 2: lot of ways, I look at myself very similar to

686
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:11,920
Speaker 2: someone who's in AA, like this is going to be

687
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 2: a part of my life that I get triggered. You know,

688
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 2: I have panic attack sometimes nightmares, and that's just a

689
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:21,319
Speaker 2: part of it. And obviously it's so much better now

690
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:24,719
Speaker 2: than it used to be. But I won't sugarcoat it.

691
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:27,440
Speaker 2: It was hellish. I mean, there were moments where I

692
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 2: felt suicidal, where I thought I was losing my mind,

693
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 2: that I was schizophrenic. But that's actually going against the programming,

694
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:39,840
Speaker 2: and the programming is so nefarious that it infiltrates your psyche.

695
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:42,600
Speaker 2: And that's something that I needed to know that that

696
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:46,279
Speaker 2: wasn't me, that wasn't me, and that I had to

697
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:50,000
Speaker 2: kind of find myself again and like, finally I feel

698
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:53,680
Speaker 2: like myself again. But it was in layers. Yeah, and

699
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 2: a lot of therapy.

700
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 4: Yes, what was that breakthrough moment for you? And kind

701
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:01,040
Speaker 4: of the House of Cars spell and you were like,

702
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 4: holy shit.

703
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 2: Oh, I mean there were so many and yeah, for me,

704
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 2: it wasn't it wasn't the big, you know, earth shattering

705
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:14,359
Speaker 2: one right in the beginning, because I actually stayed in

706
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:17,879
Speaker 2: pretty much to the end. I mean I was kind

707
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:21,960
Speaker 2: of still in nexium when Alison was arrested, or at

708
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:24,319
Speaker 2: least under a lot of their influence. I mean I

709
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:26,879
Speaker 2: started to question a little bit, but not not that much.

710
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:31,399
Speaker 2: After Allison's arrest, I did start to question. That's when

711
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 2: I met my fiance and I had like a safe

712
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 2: friend to kind of talk to, and that's when I

713
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:42,360
Speaker 2: also started to I know, and that's when I also started.

714
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:44,879
Speaker 2: I didn't know how much I needed a buddy. I mean,

715
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 2: I was trying to do everything on my own and

716
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:50,280
Speaker 2: it was not working. And then that's when I also

717
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 2: opened up my mom and she reached out to me

718
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:56,200
Speaker 2: and we started working with a deep programmer who did

719
00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:58,919
Speaker 2: mediation for us. And I know that word sounds really

720
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 2: weird and like kind of science fiction, but the deprogrammer

721
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:07,440
Speaker 2: was incredible. Her name is Diane ben Scooter. She was

722
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:10,840
Speaker 2: in the Moonies, actually she was. She's a cult survivor herself,

723
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:15,160
Speaker 2: and what she did for me is just invaluable. I mean,

724
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:18,160
Speaker 2: my mom introduced me to her, and she re engaged

725
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 2: my critical thinking so that I could actually just start

726
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:23,400
Speaker 2: to think for myself and not just think in the

727
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:27,680
Speaker 2: closed loop of cult doctrine, because that's what happens. Like

728
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:30,239
Speaker 2: you just you just can't. You don't have anywhere else

729
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:33,759
Speaker 2: to go, so you can't really properly question. If that

730
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 2: makes sense.

731
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:38,439
Speaker 1: Of course, Yeah, how have you learned slash our learning?

732
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 1: Because I'm sure it's an ongoing process forever to trust

733
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:46,960
Speaker 1: your own instincts again and to trust your body again.

734
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:51,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's been hard. I put my body through

735
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 2: a lot when I was there under you know, Keith

736
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:58,799
Speaker 2: and Allison's instruction, and I thought that I was doing

737
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 2: it for my own good because that's what I was

738
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 2: being told. And so I've had to really build the

739
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:10,600
Speaker 2: trust back with my body and and food, and my

740
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:13,680
Speaker 2: trust with my mom had to be rebuilt, and it's

741
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:16,600
Speaker 2: an ongoing thing. But I think a lot of it

742
00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:19,600
Speaker 2: is just starting to be more sensitive with myself and

743
00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:23,480
Speaker 2: less militant and just like checking in and oftentimes my

744
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:26,720
Speaker 2: mom is like, how are you doing? Like slow down,

745
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:30,560
Speaker 2: just like settle in and just like really just feeling

746
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:33,439
Speaker 2: myself again and the subtleties of that until it gets

747
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:36,879
Speaker 2: stronger and stronger, and I still screw up. I mean,

748
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 2: that's an ongoing thing for me, and I'm trying to

749
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 2: get better at that too.

750
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:43,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's an ongoing thing for me. It's

751
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:44,880
Speaker 1: an not going thing for all of us.

752
00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:47,799
Speaker 2: I think sometimes you just get so stuck in your

753
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:50,520
Speaker 2: head and you forget about your heart. And my mom

754
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:54,000
Speaker 2: has actually been really helpful for me to like reconnect

755
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:57,399
Speaker 2: to more of the spiritual side of me, and that's

756
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 2: been really nice, especially recently when things were more scary

757
00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:04,440
Speaker 2: and hard especially with the sentencing. It's like you have

758
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:08,640
Speaker 2: to kind of rely on something bigger than yourself at times.

759
00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:10,920
Speaker 1: Absolutely, Yeah, your mom's amazing.

760
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:15,919
Speaker 2: She is to your mom, I have a great mom.

761
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 2: I mean, our relationship is so different now. We have

762
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:22,960
Speaker 2: so much respect and love for each other. And next

763
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:25,480
Speaker 2: him tried to destroy that, and I mean they did

764
00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:28,560
Speaker 2: a really good job. For a long time they were

765
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:30,920
Speaker 2: telling me my mother was a psychopath and that she

766
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:34,120
Speaker 2: was trying to hurt me and all of these horrible,

767
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 2: confusing things. But I'm just so glad to be on

768
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:37,279
Speaker 2: the other side of that.

769
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:41,040
Speaker 1: So you recently got to face him face to face

770
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:44,799
Speaker 1: and say what you felt to him in court, and

771
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:47,280
Speaker 1: he was sentenced to one hundred and twenty years in prison.

772
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 1: Tell us about that experience.

773
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 2: I was not sure how I was going to feel

774
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 2: or how I was going to handle it. And I

775
00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:01,959
Speaker 2: wrote about fifteen different victim statements that I all ripped

776
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:04,440
Speaker 2: him all up, and then three days before leaving, I

777
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:07,280
Speaker 2: wrote another one, and I was trying to coach myself

778
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:09,319
Speaker 2: through it, and I was like, Okay, India, you've got

779
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:12,359
Speaker 2: eight minutes. You got to get it all out and

780
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:15,799
Speaker 2: close this chapter up. I'm going to leave this man

781
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:17,880
Speaker 2: behind and know that you can walk out and he

782
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 2: has to stay like that was how I was kind

783
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:22,760
Speaker 2: of framing it for myself so I could not freak

784
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:26,520
Speaker 2: out and then run away. And I'm just so happy

785
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:29,400
Speaker 2: that I actually went through with it. And I was

786
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 2: so inspired by all the other men and women who spoke,

787
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:36,320
Speaker 2: and they gave me strength just by sharing their experiences.

788
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:39,440
Speaker 2: But I didn't know I was going to look him

789
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:41,440
Speaker 2: in the eye. I chose to do that at the

790
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:44,320
Speaker 2: last minute. At first, I started to address the judge

791
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:47,440
Speaker 2: and then I was like, you know what, I want

792
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:50,839
Speaker 2: to say this to his face. And really, he's never

793
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:55,680
Speaker 2: going to feel what we felt. He's not capable of

794
00:41:55,719 --> 00:42:00,239
Speaker 2: having empathy or remorse. And I knew that, and I

795
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:02,440
Speaker 2: knew that going in, whatever I was going to say

796
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:04,400
Speaker 2: was going to be for my own closure. And it

797
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:06,799
Speaker 2: really has nothing to do with him. I mean, I'm

798
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:09,839
Speaker 2: not getting anything from him. He's going away forever. And

799
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:11,880
Speaker 2: that was that was that was the whole point.

800
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:16,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank god. Yeah, apparently my mom tried to report

801
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:20,160
Speaker 1: Just a fun factoid, my mom tried to report Keith

802
00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:22,319
Speaker 1: and Nexim in like twenty fifteen or twenty sixteen for

803
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:24,720
Speaker 1: human trafficking and they nobody isn't.

804
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:28,320
Speaker 2: Oh my god, that was when DAWs started. That's crazy.

805
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 4: How do you I don't know if this questions allowed,

806
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 4: so you don't have to answer it, But how do

807
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:35,480
Speaker 4: you feel about Alison and her sentencing and what is

808
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:37,920
Speaker 4: the deal with that she has.

809
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:44,040
Speaker 2: No sentencing date so far. I you know, my main

810
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:48,640
Speaker 2: focus was really on Keith and having him put away,

811
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:52,239
Speaker 2: and he is, you know, the creator of all of this,

812
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:56,200
Speaker 2: and I consider anybody who related with him a victim

813
00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:58,719
Speaker 2: of Keith Raniary in one way or another, because that's

814
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 2: what he does. He exploits deep and I consider Alison

815
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 2: a victim too in that sense. But also she did

816
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:11,600
Speaker 2: a lot of really cruel and criminal things to myself

817
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:14,799
Speaker 2: and my friends, and she has to face that, and

818
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:17,040
Speaker 2: she's going to have to face that in the court

819
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:21,279
Speaker 2: of law because they determined the line between victim and

820
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:24,239
Speaker 2: perpetrator and it was very clear to the government. And

821
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:27,200
Speaker 2: I don't I haven't had any communication with Allison since

822
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 2: she was arrested, so I don't know what her mental

823
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:31,359
Speaker 2: state is or anything like that.

824
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:32,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, I wonder.

825
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:34,719
Speaker 2: I wonder too all the time, So it's hard for

826
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:37,479
Speaker 2: me to pass judgment, but I do know that she's

827
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:40,279
Speaker 2: going to have to face the consequences of her of

828
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:41,520
Speaker 2: her choices.

829
00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:41,640
Speaker 1: Of course.

830
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 2: And I mean I know what I did. I know

831
00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:46,480
Speaker 2: what I did, and I know what she did, and

832
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:49,680
Speaker 2: it was very different. I mean, obviously there was some overlap,

833
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:52,600
Speaker 2: but I did what I needed to do with the government.

834
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:56,000
Speaker 2: I was a cooperating witness for nine months. I've reached

835
00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:59,320
Speaker 2: out to some of the people that I enrolled into Dawson,

836
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:03,920
Speaker 2: into ESP and I'm trying continuously to heal those relationships

837
00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:04,959
Speaker 2: in my own life.

838
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:08,680
Speaker 4: Absolutely, I hope people are forgiving of that because you

839
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:12,279
Speaker 4: were just trying to show them something good and to

840
00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:13,400
Speaker 4: survive exactly.

841
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:15,520
Speaker 2: And I think that's what it comes down to, is

842
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:19,160
Speaker 2: just like we were all, in a way trying to survive.

843
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:22,640
Speaker 2: And you can't really judge the decisions that you made

844
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:25,920
Speaker 2: fully in the cult because it wasn't the same you

845
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:30,240
Speaker 2: to a certain extent. I mean, there is certain culpability

846
00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:35,440
Speaker 2: that needs to be held accountable, but most people are

847
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:36,240
Speaker 2: very forgiving.

848
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:41,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, what would you say to someone who is in

849
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:45,319
Speaker 1: a situation where maybe they have a sneaking suspicion that

850
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:49,520
Speaker 1: it's not right or could possibly be abusive, but haven't

851
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:51,719
Speaker 1: fully come to terms with it yet. Do you have

852
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:54,040
Speaker 1: any advice for someone who's in a situation like that.

853
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:56,840
Speaker 2: Oh, that's so good. That goes back to your instinct question.

854
00:44:56,920 --> 00:45:02,319
Speaker 2: I think it's like, don't deny that instinct, because there's

855
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:06,480
Speaker 2: something there and it's worth exploring, and it's worth reaching

856
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:08,640
Speaker 2: out to someone who you trust, who you think is

857
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:12,279
Speaker 2: objective and isn't like emotionally involved in the situation, because

858
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:15,719
Speaker 2: sometimes it's so hard when it's romantic, for instance, like

859
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:18,520
Speaker 2: and you're in love with this guy who's so great

860
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:23,400
Speaker 2: and your mom's like, no, he sucks, and you're like, shut, mom,

861
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:26,000
Speaker 2: don't tell me that. I'm like, I mean, you can

862
00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:28,840
Speaker 2: be as simple as that. But be open to it,

863
00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:31,560
Speaker 2: be open to questioning, because there's people that really love

864
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:35,360
Speaker 2: you and really care about you, and they'll tell you

865
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:37,440
Speaker 2: the truth. And those are those are your friends, and

866
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 2: those are the people that really care about you. And

867
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:41,839
Speaker 2: if some guy is coming in and he's trying to,

868
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:45,279
Speaker 2: you know, change your opinion about yourself or turn you

869
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 2: into what he wants, question it, don't don't just go

870
00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:52,359
Speaker 2: with it, and like, know that you're worth more. You're

871
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:56,960
Speaker 2: worth it. You're worth not being abused. Nobody deserves abuse.

872
00:45:57,160 --> 00:46:00,960
Speaker 2: And I just think, like I came across this organization

873
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:04,080
Speaker 2: the other day called One Love, and I hadn't heard

874
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:07,200
Speaker 2: of them before, but what they do is so beautiful

875
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:10,839
Speaker 2: and moving to me. They teach people what real love

876
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:16,040
Speaker 2: looks like, both platonically romantically, and they teach you what

877
00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:18,080
Speaker 2: real love doesn't look like because a lot of the

878
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:21,239
Speaker 2: times we don't have positive examples of that, even in

879
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:24,080
Speaker 2: our own homes. So you don't stand a chance if

880
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:26,960
Speaker 2: you don't have if you're not equipped with the tools

881
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:29,680
Speaker 2: to look for what to look at love for what

882
00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:32,600
Speaker 2: it really is. And love is not abuse, and it

883
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:36,239
Speaker 2: is something that I'm still learning and still healing in myself.

884
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:40,359
Speaker 2: And I hope that there are more organizations like this

885
00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:44,000
Speaker 2: out there to teach young people and like in high school,

886
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:46,080
Speaker 2: Like can you imagine if we would have known this

887
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:49,000
Speaker 2: in high school, Like all the pain that we would

888
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:53,000
Speaker 2: have alleviated from our lives and our friends' lives, right

889
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:56,239
Speaker 2: just knew that you were worth it, like that you're

890
00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:59,920
Speaker 2: valuable and that you don't need to have anybody give.

891
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:00,319
Speaker 4: That to you.

892
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 2: That's really what I would say, and what I really

893
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:05,440
Speaker 2: want to like internalize in myself.

894
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:09,560
Speaker 1: That's that's amazing that there's an organization that does that.

895
00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:12,920
Speaker 1: I mean, like, I know so many so cool. I

896
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:15,680
Speaker 1: know so many people who really didn't have an example

897
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:20,240
Speaker 1: of healthy love in their life, so there's no way

898
00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:22,360
Speaker 1: for them to sort of pat like there's no pattern

899
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:25,520
Speaker 1: for them to follow, you know. Yeah, So if there's

900
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:27,880
Speaker 1: like a place you can go to learn that, that's awesome.

901
00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:31,200
Speaker 4: Especially self love. Nobody teaches us that shit.

902
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:34,440
Speaker 2: No, I mean, like one of the most important things

903
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:38,600
Speaker 2: ever learning how to love yourself and yourself and just

904
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:41,480
Speaker 2: be okay being alone? Like you know, how many people

905
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:43,319
Speaker 2: tell I mean, I have a lot of anxiety, but

906
00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:46,359
Speaker 2: how many people tell me how anxious they are just

907
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:50,080
Speaker 2: to be alone? Yeah, And I'm like that sucks. Like

908
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:55,160
Speaker 2: alone should be a party, should be like, oh my god,

909
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:58,280
Speaker 2: I'm so this is great. I love being with myself

910
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:00,440
Speaker 2: like that to me would be ideal.

911
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:01,239
Speaker 3: Yeah.

912
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:05,680
Speaker 4: Are there like any questions or things that you haven't

913
00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:07,919
Speaker 4: been asked about yet or anything that you're like, oh,

914
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:09,719
Speaker 4: that would be important for people to know.

915
00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:12,319
Speaker 2: Or I mean, you guys asked really good questions to

916
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:14,760
Speaker 2: be honest, Do you ask more questions that I haven't

917
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:19,279
Speaker 2: been asked, so right, yeah, I feel like, well, one

918
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:22,840
Speaker 2: of the things that we go pretty headfirst in on

919
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:26,879
Speaker 2: the in the docu series in Seduced is at the

920
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:29,280
Speaker 2: end of the fourth episode and it's not a spoiler

921
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:32,040
Speaker 2: alert or anything, so I can talk about it, but

922
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:35,600
Speaker 2: basically the idea that we live in a culture of

923
00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:41,880
Speaker 2: influence and influencers and people who can actually change the

924
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:45,520
Speaker 2: way that you think and feel about yourself. And that's

925
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:48,400
Speaker 2: one thing that I've tried to be more aware about,

926
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:51,360
Speaker 2: is like who am I following, Who am I letting

927
00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:54,600
Speaker 2: influence me? What kind of messages am I allowing into

928
00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:58,400
Speaker 2: my psyche or into my life, and to just be

929
00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:02,359
Speaker 2: more careful about that, and you know, more aware. And

930
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:05,640
Speaker 2: I know that that's something that I'm learning myself, and

931
00:49:06,239 --> 00:49:08,080
Speaker 2: I see it in my younger sisters. You know, they're

932
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:12,000
Speaker 2: they're seventeen and nineteen, and they're saturated with social media

933
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:16,400
Speaker 2: and they you know, it does it does affect you.

934
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:18,840
Speaker 2: And I think that that's something that we need to

935
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:22,480
Speaker 2: be more careful about. And also another thing, like the

936
00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:25,640
Speaker 2: cyber bullying and the victim shaming has got to stop,

937
00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:28,960
Speaker 2: Like oh my god, I know so screwed up. I mean,

938
00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:34,839
Speaker 2: you're basically supporting abusers and you're promoting predators because you're

939
00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:38,359
Speaker 2: silencing victims. Like stop, Like, don't write a comment if

940
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:40,080
Speaker 2: it's going to be mean. Haven't you heard didn't you

941
00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:42,719
Speaker 2: learn that in preschool? Like if you have, if you

942
00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:45,520
Speaker 2: don't have anything nice to say, don't say it at all.

943
00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:49,000
Speaker 2: It's like the simplest thing is the book. And I

944
00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:51,840
Speaker 2: mean I see it all over for myself. Sometimes I

945
00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:56,759
Speaker 2: get these dms or messages on my wall and I'm like, whoa, Like,

946
00:49:56,840 --> 00:50:00,680
Speaker 2: who is this person that you know decided to to

947
00:50:00,719 --> 00:50:02,120
Speaker 2: just say these nasty things.

948
00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:05,759
Speaker 5: I don't know you, you don't know me, But I

949
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:07,879
Speaker 5: just wish that that would I wish that we would

950
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:08,600
Speaker 5: get better at.

951
00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:10,319
Speaker 2: That, honestly. And I know you have a lot of

952
00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:12,880
Speaker 2: social media presence and you probably get it too. It

953
00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:13,440
Speaker 2: just sucks.

954
00:50:13,520 --> 00:50:17,040
Speaker 1: It really sucks. People feel so safe behind their screens

955
00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:19,520
Speaker 1: and don't realize that there's a human being on the

956
00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:22,399
Speaker 1: other end of that. And it's like it's not fake.

957
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:24,920
Speaker 1: The Internet is not fake. Like we are all genuinely

958
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:28,120
Speaker 1: affected by the things that people say to us. Like yeah,

959
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:31,040
Speaker 1: and I think with survivors in particular, there's I mean,

960
00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:35,120
Speaker 1: there's just not enough cultural awareness around the fact that

961
00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:38,560
Speaker 1: these things can happen to anyone and that everyone is susceptible,

962
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:41,759
Speaker 1: and I think people put up their defense mechanisms and

963
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:43,000
Speaker 1: that's what that is, you know.

964
00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:45,879
Speaker 2: But totally it's like I don't want to know about it,

965
00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:48,319
Speaker 2: so I'm just gonna judge it. But that doesn't get

966
00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:51,359
Speaker 2: anybody anywhere. Look at the world, like if we are

967
00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:56,200
Speaker 2: like we're constantly like you're wrong, you're right, Like just stop.

968
00:50:56,320 --> 00:51:00,400
Speaker 2: Let everybody have their own experience and opinions. And sometimes

969
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:03,600
Speaker 2: it's really discouraging and I delete them and I report

970
00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:07,239
Speaker 2: them as hate speech because that's what they are. But

971
00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:11,200
Speaker 2: the positive responses and the types of people that are

972
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:14,480
Speaker 2: reaching out to me from all over sharing their experiences

973
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:17,919
Speaker 2: are so moving and it makes me feel like we're

974
00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:20,520
Speaker 2: doing the right thing. And like just this morning, I

975
00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:23,080
Speaker 2: had a girl reach out to me and say that

976
00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:26,200
Speaker 2: she was in a similar situation now and the guy

977
00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:28,560
Speaker 2: is still out there doing this to other women, and

978
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:32,759
Speaker 2: it just like gave me chills all over. Because my

979
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:36,720
Speaker 2: mom started an organization even before I a foundation, sorry,

980
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:39,520
Speaker 2: before I was even out of Nexium to help other

981
00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:44,319
Speaker 2: women get therapy to heal and to recover, because oftentimes,

982
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:47,520
Speaker 2: as you know, people leave cults, they have no career,

983
00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:51,200
Speaker 2: they're destitute, they've severed their ties from their family, and

984
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:55,880
Speaker 2: they're super vulnerable to being sucked back in. So if

985
00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:59,399
Speaker 2: I can raise enough money and enough awareness to make

986
00:51:59,440 --> 00:52:01,719
Speaker 2: sure that people will have the resources like I was

987
00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:04,319
Speaker 2: able to get when I came out, that would make

988
00:52:04,360 --> 00:52:07,239
Speaker 2: me really proud. That's kind of where I'm amazing. I

989
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:09,200
Speaker 2: want to move towards that. I want to like, get

990
00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:11,720
Speaker 2: away from Maxiam. It's kind of too much.

991
00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:12,840
Speaker 3: What's it called.

992
00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:16,359
Speaker 2: It's called right now the Catherine Oxenberg Foundation, but we're

993
00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:18,719
Speaker 2: going to change it to Oxenburg Foundation because now I'm

994
00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:24,560
Speaker 2: I'm full on I'm full on employed by bye by myself. Well,

995
00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:27,279
Speaker 2: it's a two women team right now. We want to

996
00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:28,520
Speaker 2: we want to grow the team.

997
00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:30,120
Speaker 1: You guys, just talk to my mom. My mom was

998
00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:31,319
Speaker 1: just saying this exact thing.

999
00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:32,560
Speaker 2: I'd love to talk to her.

1000
00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:34,600
Speaker 1: I just want to say Seduced. I feel like Seduced

1001
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:40,080
Speaker 1: does such a great job of showings the process of

1002
00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:42,840
Speaker 1: indoctrination and the process of coercion in a way that

1003
00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:45,960
Speaker 1: a lot of other very sensationalized documentaries don't. And I

1004
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:49,440
Speaker 1: really appreciate that, and I yeah, once again, I just

1005
00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:52,120
Speaker 1: respect the hell out of you for telling your story

1006
00:52:52,320 --> 00:52:56,120
Speaker 1: so thoroughly, so soon. And I'm just really glad you came.

1007
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:58,200
Speaker 2: On the game for telling about my pleasure. I mean,

1008
00:52:58,239 --> 00:53:00,239
Speaker 2: I love talking to you guys and people. Thank you

1009
00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:03,920
Speaker 2: who you know, see the importance of sharing these things,

1010
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:06,879
Speaker 2: Like like I've said many times, nobody wants to talk

1011
00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:10,839
Speaker 2: about this stuff. It's not fun, it's not glamorous, and

1012
00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:13,319
Speaker 2: it's hard, but I think it's worth it.

1013
00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:16,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely too. Do you wanna Do you want to

1014
00:53:16,440 --> 00:53:18,520
Speaker 1: share any social media handles.

1015
00:53:18,239 --> 00:53:22,640
Speaker 2: Or I'm on Instagram under India Oxenbourg. That's me personally.

1016
00:53:23,560 --> 00:53:26,440
Speaker 2: I don't really dabble on Facebook. I can only handle

1017
00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:29,120
Speaker 2: like one social media at a time. I'm not on Twitter,

1018
00:53:29,520 --> 00:53:33,040
Speaker 2: although I think maybe my name is somewhere, but I'm

1019
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:35,560
Speaker 2: mostly focused on Instagram and kind of learning the way

1020
00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:39,959
Speaker 2: the ways of that realm. So I'm there.

1021
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:42,439
Speaker 3: Thank you guy, have a great day.

1022
00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:46,040
Speaker 1: Bye. All right, Well, we've come to that time in

1023
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:49,080
Speaker 1: the podcast where I ask Megan if she thinks that

1024
00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:50,960
Speaker 1: she would join nexiam.

1025
00:53:50,960 --> 00:53:55,040
Speaker 4: No questions as to one percent signed up and done.

1026
00:53:55,239 --> 00:53:58,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's I mean, look, I like I have

1027
00:53:58,719 --> 00:54:01,760
Speaker 1: a healthy dose of skepticism now obviously, but I feel

1028
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:04,240
Speaker 1: like I am someone who always wants to be better,

1029
00:54:04,880 --> 00:54:08,719
Speaker 1: want to achieve my maximum and potential. I want to

1030
00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:10,200
Speaker 1: conquer my demons, you.

1031
00:54:10,120 --> 00:54:13,759
Speaker 3: Know, absolutely, so titillating.

1032
00:54:13,440 --> 00:54:16,200
Speaker 1: It's a funny word to use. But also yes, because

1033
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:18,799
Speaker 1: the high profile people, the people that are there if

1034
00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:20,680
Speaker 1: you want to be successful and the biz, you know,

1035
00:54:20,760 --> 00:54:21,040
Speaker 1: just the.

1036
00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:25,680
Speaker 4: High arousal state that they keep you in. And I'm

1037
00:54:25,719 --> 00:54:29,680
Speaker 4: all in for like basically torturing yourself in the name

1038
00:54:29,760 --> 00:54:31,400
Speaker 4: of getting better. Same.

1039
00:54:31,640 --> 00:54:31,879
Speaker 2: Same.

1040
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:34,120
Speaker 1: One of the things that I think would really appeal

1041
00:54:34,160 --> 00:54:39,320
Speaker 1: to me in particular is that Keith has this way

1042
00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:43,920
Speaker 1: of speaking that feels like he's being really vulnerable, and

1043
00:54:44,280 --> 00:54:47,200
Speaker 1: the eye contact thing, it feels like you're really really

1044
00:54:47,239 --> 00:54:51,880
Speaker 1: connecting and even me, even the skeptic that I am, Like,

1045
00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:54,640
Speaker 1: if a man wants to talk to me about feelings

1046
00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:57,120
Speaker 1: or like be vulnerable with me or like help me

1047
00:54:57,200 --> 00:54:59,520
Speaker 1: access my own vulnerability, I'm fucking sold.

1048
00:54:59,719 --> 00:54:59,919
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1049
00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:04,239
Speaker 4: Also the saving the world and the environment, but yes, yeah,

1050
00:55:04,280 --> 00:55:06,560
Speaker 4: we would fall into that rabbit hole totally.

1051
00:55:07,160 --> 00:55:09,040
Speaker 1: Just a casual friend of mine, it turns out was

1052
00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:11,200
Speaker 1: in a a the Outer Layer. She didn't know what

1053
00:55:11,239 --> 00:55:13,239
Speaker 1: was going on, but she joined Nexium. She was like

1054
00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:15,880
Speaker 1: doing the courses, doing the classes. I mean, where's the

1055
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:19,200
Speaker 1: line between Landmark and Nexium. Where's the line between a

1056
00:55:19,239 --> 00:55:22,360
Speaker 1: regular self help book and nexim It's just like it

1057
00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:26,400
Speaker 1: can be very easy, I think to be enticed by that. Yeah, well, anyway,

1058
00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:28,120
Speaker 1: good story.

1059
00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:32,040
Speaker 4: I really really really can't recommend those two shows enough,

1060
00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:35,239
Speaker 4: and I'm so happy that India is able to tell

1061
00:55:35,239 --> 00:55:37,480
Speaker 4: it and such amazing terms.

1062
00:55:38,440 --> 00:55:40,440
Speaker 3: Let us let us know what you guys think. We

1063
00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:42,920
Speaker 3: hope you enjoyed the episode. Absolutely.

1064
00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:46,400
Speaker 1: You can find me Lola on Instagram at Ula Lola

1065
00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:48,400
Speaker 1: o h l A l O l A and on

1066
00:55:48,440 --> 00:55:50,920
Speaker 1: Twitter I'm O La Lola with only one oh at

1067
00:55:50,920 --> 00:55:52,200
Speaker 1: the beginning, it's very confusing.

1068
00:55:52,600 --> 00:55:56,520
Speaker 4: You can find me Megan at vibehire Bitch on Instagram,

1069
00:55:56,719 --> 00:56:00,879
Speaker 4: so I hope you find me there and remember to.

1070
00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:04,160
Speaker 3: Follow your gut, watch out for red block, and never

1071
00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:06,440
Speaker 3: ever trust me.

1072
00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:07,759
Speaker 1: Wednight,