1
00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,640
Speaker 1: Do you hate hangovers, We'll say goodbye to hangovers. Out

2
00:00:02,640 --> 00:00:05,160
Speaker 1: of Office gives you the social buzz without the next

3
00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:07,560
Speaker 1: day regret. Their best selling out of Office gummies were

4
00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:10,479
Speaker 1: designed to provide a mild, relaxing buzz, boost your mood,

5
00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:14,120
Speaker 1: and enhance creativity and relaxation. With five different strengths, you

6
00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:16,360
Speaker 1: can tailor the dose to fit your vibe, from a

7
00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:20,520
Speaker 1: gentle one point five milligram micro dose to their newest

8
00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:24,599
Speaker 1: fifteen milligram gummy for a more elevated experience. Their THHC

9
00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:28,159
Speaker 1: beverages and gummies are a modern, mindful alternative to a

10
00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:30,680
Speaker 1: glass of wine or a cocktail. And I'll tell you this,

11
00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:33,879
Speaker 1: I've given up booze. I don't like the hangovers. I

12
00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:37,519
Speaker 1: prefer the gummy experience. Soul is a wellness brand that

13
00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:41,040
Speaker 1: believes feeling good should be fun and easy. Soul specializes

14
00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:44,760
Speaker 1: in delicious HEMP derived THHD and CBD products, all designed

15
00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:47,839
Speaker 1: to boost your mood and simply help you unwine so

16
00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:50,120
Speaker 1: if you struggle to switch off at night, Soul also

17
00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:53,200
Speaker 1: has a variety of products specifically designed to just simply

18
00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:55,680
Speaker 1: help you get a better night's sleep, including their top

19
00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:59,840
Speaker 1: selling Sleepy gummies. It's a fan favorite for deep restorative sleep.

20
00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:02,280
Speaker 1: So bring on the good vibes and treat yourself to

21
00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:06,120
Speaker 1: Soul today. Right now, Soul is offering my audience thirty

22
00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:09,240
Speaker 1: percent off your entire order. So go to gitsold dot

23
00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:13,319
Speaker 1: com use the promo code toodcast. Don't forget that code.

24
00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:18,160
Speaker 1: That's getsold dot Com promo code toodcast for thirty percent off.

25
00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:23,960
Speaker 2: So joining me now is Adam Gentlesen. I've known him

26
00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:24,600
Speaker 2: a long time.

27
00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:29,120
Speaker 1: He was a longtime staffer for the late Senate Majority leader.

28
00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:33,679
Speaker 1: He's author of a book about the Senate called kill Switch,

29
00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:36,000
Speaker 1: The Rise of the Modern Senate and the Crippling of

30
00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:39,120
Speaker 1: American Democracy. So we'll have a little fun about about

31
00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:43,000
Speaker 1: how broken is the Senate and how to repair it.

32
00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:45,400
Speaker 1: But I have him mind because you just started anew

33
00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:47,880
Speaker 1: and I'll be curious what you describe it, Adam. Is

34
00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:50,800
Speaker 1: it a think tank? Is it a research institute? But

35
00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:54,200
Speaker 1: it's named after the hometown of Harry Reid, Searchlight, Nevada.

36
00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:57,440
Speaker 1: It's called the search Light. Let me make sure I

37
00:01:57,480 --> 00:01:59,320
Speaker 1: get this right. Well, you could tell me for sure,

38
00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:00,760
Speaker 1: search Light Institute.

39
00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:03,280
Speaker 2: Is that right? Right? Got it? There we go, So.

40
00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:09,760
Speaker 1: Basically trying to get Democrats to broaden the tent, make

41
00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:12,720
Speaker 1: the case that this is a big tent. And given

42
00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:15,200
Speaker 1: that you work for Harry Reid, who was for years

43
00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:17,720
Speaker 1: known as personally pro life or pro gun at times,

44
00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:21,280
Speaker 1: you know, certainly was culturally a bit conservative if a

45
00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:25,120
Speaker 1: probably an original populist on economic issues that I think

46
00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:30,480
Speaker 1: people if you didn't follow his career closely, might not realize.

47
00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:33,760
Speaker 1: So in many ways naming it after Harry read makes

48
00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:34,480
Speaker 1: a lot of sense to me.

49
00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:35,000
Speaker 2: But what is it?

50
00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:37,400
Speaker 1: What do you describe search Light Institutes.

51
00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:39,000
Speaker 2: And the think tank? Is it something else? We are

52
00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:43,519
Speaker 2: an action tank, Chuck, And that feels like a focus

53
00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:47,760
Speaker 2: group word, dude, Well, you know the reason I call

54
00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:50,520
Speaker 2: it that is that is that, you know, we develop ideas,

55
00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:52,080
Speaker 2: but we don't want them to sit on the shelf.

56
00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:54,160
Speaker 2: You know, these aren't white papers that are designed to

57
00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:56,840
Speaker 2: just sort of be read by academics and policy wonks.

58
00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:00,520
Speaker 2: You know, they're they're well thought through, their credible, but

59
00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:02,520
Speaker 2: we want them to be put into action, and we

60
00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:04,760
Speaker 2: want them to become legislation. We want them to become

61
00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:08,520
Speaker 2: talked about on campaigns, and we want them to shape

62
00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:10,680
Speaker 2: the debate. And so the part of the reason we

63
00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:13,240
Speaker 2: have both a policy development arm of what we do

64
00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:15,880
Speaker 2: and appolling arm of what we do is to you know,

65
00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:19,040
Speaker 2: try to get that balance right between being responsive to

66
00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:20,880
Speaker 2: the public listening to the American people. I think in

67
00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:23,919
Speaker 2: a democracy it's very important to actually have the policies

68
00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:26,840
Speaker 2: that are developed reflect the will of the people, but

69
00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:29,960
Speaker 2: then factor that in to how we develop our own policies,

70
00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:32,240
Speaker 2: you know, and we don't just pull to say what's popular.

71
00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:33,880
Speaker 2: We just want to understand what people think and then

72
00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:36,440
Speaker 2: design people design policy in a way that sort of

73
00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:39,080
Speaker 2: bridges the divide sometimes between what we think is correct

74
00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:40,880
Speaker 2: on the policy and where the American people are in

75
00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:42,960
Speaker 2: their own thoughts and feelings on the issue.

76
00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:47,000
Speaker 1: Compare yourself to cat Center for American Progress, which is

77
00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:49,880
Speaker 1: arguably the sort of the leading progressive think tank these

78
00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:52,320
Speaker 1: days in Washington. We're more headed then and then and

79
00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:56,680
Speaker 1: Brookings you more center left, I guess, or you might

80
00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:59,240
Speaker 1: say very academic in comparison to the other two.

81
00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:02,800
Speaker 2: That's exact right, And I think on sort of ideology,

82
00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:05,680
Speaker 2: compared to both of those, we are more heterodox. We

83
00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:08,000
Speaker 2: will take the best ideas from wherever they come from,

84
00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:12,040
Speaker 2: from across the ideological spectrum, and it's my own personal

85
00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:15,000
Speaker 2: view that the best and most durable, and frankly, the

86
00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:18,920
Speaker 2: policies that bring the biggest change to this country tend

87
00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:23,000
Speaker 2: to reflect points of view from across the ideological spectrum.

88
00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:26,280
Speaker 2: So I think a lot about Social Security, right and

89
00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:29,640
Speaker 2: you know, people have called Social Security liberal ends by

90
00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:34,280
Speaker 2: conservative means. It's the greatest anti poverty program we've ever implemented,

91
00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:37,920
Speaker 2: is you know, a core part of democrats appeal to

92
00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:41,400
Speaker 2: the American people, but it also embraced conservative principles of

93
00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:45,280
Speaker 2: personal responsibility. People paid in FDR himself was personally would

94
00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:47,599
Speaker 2: rail against the dole and cabinet meetings. He would say,

95
00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:50,080
Speaker 2: this is not a dole, this is not welfare. People

96
00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:51,800
Speaker 2: are going to earn what they get. They're going to

97
00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:53,640
Speaker 2: pay into it through the payroll packs, and then I

98
00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:56,640
Speaker 2: get something back in return. So you know, we try

99
00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:59,640
Speaker 2: to think about that balance as we develop policy. We're smaller.

100
00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:03,120
Speaker 2: I think we're more action oriented than some of the

101
00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:05,440
Speaker 2: folks who've been around for a long time, and I think,

102
00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:07,839
Speaker 2: but you know, it's the more the merrier as far

103
00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:08,560
Speaker 2: as I'm concerned.

104
00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:12,640
Speaker 1: We were talking off camera here for a minute and

105
00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:14,480
Speaker 1: you were talking about how your office space is right

106
00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:17,400
Speaker 1: in your heritage. And it's interesting you brought up Social

107
00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:20,080
Speaker 1: Security as an example that sort of meshed a liberal

108
00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:24,200
Speaker 1: and conservative idea. I could argue Obamacare did the same thing, right,

109
00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:27,520
Speaker 1: you know, the infamous Heritage. You know, Heritage has been

110
00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:31,440
Speaker 1: through a lot of shall we say, facelifts over the years.

111
00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:34,080
Speaker 1: Maybe they have a mar a lago look now that

112
00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:36,760
Speaker 1: they went to the doctor and got my joke, not years,

113
00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:40,680
Speaker 1: but in the nineties they came up with essentially the

114
00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:43,600
Speaker 1: healthcare plan that was the model for met Romney and

115
00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:46,080
Speaker 1: arguably the model for Barack Obama.

116
00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:48,960
Speaker 2: That's exactly right. And you know, having sort of been

117
00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:52,440
Speaker 2: actually a cap for a little while while while the

118
00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:55,320
Speaker 2: affordable character was being debated during the campaign and then

119
00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:58,360
Speaker 2: legislated and then being on the hill through a lot

120
00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:01,840
Speaker 2: of that too, that's exactly right. And you know, part

121
00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:04,800
Speaker 2: of the way that we were able to pass that

122
00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:08,080
Speaker 2: was by embracing conservative ideas, and in fact it was

123
00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:10,719
Speaker 2: modeled You're one hundred percent correct. There was a Heritage

124
00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:13,160
Speaker 2: study in the nineties that that sort of provided the

125
00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:16,920
Speaker 2: intellectual basis for it, and then it was put into practice,

126
00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:21,839
Speaker 2: first by Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney when he was governor there,

127
00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:25,159
Speaker 2: and people called it Romneycare, So you know, before it

128
00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:28,520
Speaker 2: was Obamacare, it was Romneycare, and it certainly reflected you

129
00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:32,000
Speaker 2: know that the idea of having an individual mandate, you know,

130
00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:34,440
Speaker 2: and other aspects of it were and you know, frankly

131
00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:36,480
Speaker 2: being aimed at bending the cost curve, at bringing down

132
00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:38,640
Speaker 2: the deficit. These are all conservative principles that were incorporating

133
00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:40,480
Speaker 2: into that development, although heritage walked away from it.

134
00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:42,919
Speaker 1: But you know, every once in a while, I always

135
00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:45,200
Speaker 1: try to give little breadcrumbs to sort of like, you know,

136
00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:47,840
Speaker 1: how my political mind was shaped by my parents. And

137
00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:50,520
Speaker 1: you know, my father had this saying when I remember

138
00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:52,560
Speaker 1: as a kid, he said, you know, and I'd ask him,

139
00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:55,920
Speaker 1: you know, and he was he became a he was

140
00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:59,000
Speaker 1: a Reagan Democrat that became a Reagan Conservative. And he'd

141
00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:01,400
Speaker 1: say he left the Democratic already over LPJ and Vietnam.

142
00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:03,480
Speaker 1: That was that was sort of where you went. But

143
00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:05,640
Speaker 1: you still also say, he goes, you know, I want

144
00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:07,240
Speaker 1: the Democrats to come up with the ideas and I

145
00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:10,160
Speaker 1: want the Republicans to implement them. It was like that

146
00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:12,440
Speaker 1: that was his in his mindset. You know at the time,

147
00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:15,320
Speaker 1: and that back in the seventies and eighties, the perception

148
00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:18,120
Speaker 1: of the two parties was, you know, the the the

149
00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:23,800
Speaker 1: managerial brain was on the Republican side and the the

150
00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:26,560
Speaker 1: empathy brain was on the Democratic side, and that you know,

151
00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:28,560
Speaker 1: if you had too much empathy, it would be too expensive.

152
00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:30,840
Speaker 1: You needed, you know, that sort of balance. And in

153
00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:33,240
Speaker 1: some ways what you're describing here was what you describe

154
00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:35,360
Speaker 1: to Social Security, what we were retelling the story of

155
00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:38,960
Speaker 1: Obamacare somewhere that does sort of work itself out right,

156
00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:44,160
Speaker 1: that the stuff that sticks is the stuff that is

157
00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:49,520
Speaker 1: more ideologically diverse when it comes to the cooks in

158
00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:51,840
Speaker 1: the kitchen that create the policy.

159
00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:54,320
Speaker 2: Right, That's that's exactly right. I mean, you know, we've

160
00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:58,520
Speaker 2: fallen out of this balance and we're talking polarized. We're

161
00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:00,600
Speaker 2: so polarized. We'll talk about full us to you know.

162
00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:02,480
Speaker 2: You know, I think that's a big part of it.

163
00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:05,400
Speaker 1: I argue the two parties aren't as in. You know,

164
00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:08,080
Speaker 1: I always say, what's the biggest change in American politics

165
00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:11,440
Speaker 1: in my lifetime, It's been the lack of ideological diversity

166
00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:12,800
Speaker 1: inside the two parties.

167
00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:14,880
Speaker 2: Oh well, you know, I mean, think about that was

168
00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:17,320
Speaker 2: the huge chain, one hundred percent. I mean I think

169
00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:20,280
Speaker 2: a lot about what the Senate Democratic caucus looked like

170
00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:22,440
Speaker 2: back when I worked for Harry Reid in the Senate

171
00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:23,640
Speaker 2: and we had, first of all, we.

172
00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:25,920
Speaker 1: Talk about all those northern red states that had Democratic

173
00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:27,720
Speaker 1: senators for yes, well, I.

174
00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:32,160
Speaker 2: Mean yeah, both Dakota's, you know, we had senators there,

175
00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:35,520
Speaker 2: We had a senator Nebraska. We had both Senate boat.

176
00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:37,160
Speaker 1: Senators in Nebraska for a long time.

177
00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:41,200
Speaker 2: That's right, Bob Carry and Ben Nelson. We had both

178
00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:44,319
Speaker 2: Senate seats in Montana for a long time, both seats

179
00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:46,360
Speaker 2: in Arkansas. If you want to move further south, Louisia

180
00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:47,960
Speaker 2: had one seat in Louisiana. I mean, you know, we

181
00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:49,960
Speaker 2: had I think when I went to count it, it

182
00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:52,079
Speaker 2: was we had at least one one Senate seat in

183
00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:54,800
Speaker 2: thirty six of the fifty states, right, so just really

184
00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:58,520
Speaker 2: spread across the country. And the reason why was this

185
00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:02,840
Speaker 2: ideological diversity that you describing. You know, senators like Max Bocchus,

186
00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:07,480
Speaker 2: Ben Nelson, mary Landrew, Blanche Lincoln. They were four things

187
00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:09,959
Speaker 2: like you know, mary Landrew was strongly in favor of

188
00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:12,479
Speaker 2: the fossil fuel industry, coming from a state like Louisiana

189
00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:15,280
Speaker 2: where that was critical to the economy. Ben Nelson was

190
00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:18,360
Speaker 2: pro life, Blanche Lincoln was in favor of fiscal responsibility

191
00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:22,040
Speaker 2: and balanced budgets. Right, And that didn't make them not Democrats, right,

192
00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:24,720
Speaker 2: They still were strongly Democratic on most issues. They still

193
00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:27,200
Speaker 2: voted with the party, you know, on most issues. But

194
00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:32,640
Speaker 2: embracing that ideological diversity is what allowed us to win

195
00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:35,360
Speaker 2: Senate seats in those states. And what we've done over

196
00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:38,600
Speaker 2: the last ten years is to try to purity test

197
00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:42,760
Speaker 2: out anybody who has any kind of ideological diversity, particularly

198
00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:44,640
Speaker 2: when it goes to the right, and that's just shot

199
00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:47,520
Speaker 2: ourselves in the foot. It's left us unable to win

200
00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:50,959
Speaker 2: seats in those red states where we barely can't even

201
00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:51,760
Speaker 2: compete these days.

202
00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:54,600
Speaker 1: You know, it's funny you brought up Blanche Lincoln. Remember

203
00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:56,839
Speaker 1: that primary challenge she had to deal with sure do

204
00:09:57,160 --> 00:10:01,360
Speaker 1: yep and organizing him right, And it was it was

205
00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:03,280
Speaker 1: you're just sitting there going, guys, what are you doing.

206
00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:06,800
Speaker 1: She's already in a tough general election. What are you

207
00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:10,400
Speaker 1: doing to her? And it made a tough situation worse well,

208
00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:10,880
Speaker 1: And it's.

209
00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:13,040
Speaker 2: A good point because you know, I think what gets

210
00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:16,000
Speaker 2: mixed up in the sort of debate on social media

211
00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:19,480
Speaker 2: and elsewhere about this is that to embrace somebody like

212
00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:23,200
Speaker 2: Blanche Lincoln doesn't require you or your friends or most

213
00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:26,800
Speaker 2: other Democrats to change their points of view. Right, I'm

214
00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:30,000
Speaker 2: strongly pro union. Most of my policy views are probably

215
00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:31,920
Speaker 2: pretty far to the left of the American electorate. But

216
00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:34,480
Speaker 2: for someone like Blanche Lincoln to win in a state

217
00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:37,760
Speaker 2: like Arkansas, she's going to have to take different positions,

218
00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:41,560
Speaker 2: positions that diverge from my own, and that impulse towards

219
00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:45,640
Speaker 2: purity is going to guarantee that our caucus is smaller,

220
00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:48,880
Speaker 2: that the number of Americans Democrats are able to represent

221
00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:51,160
Speaker 2: is smaller, that the number of Americans who look at

222
00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:53,160
Speaker 2: Democrats and say that is a party I want to

223
00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:54,160
Speaker 2: be a part of is smaller.

224
00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:59,280
Speaker 1: You know, I got my start at National Journal, and

225
00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:01,880
Speaker 1: they were fit as in the seventies and eighties and

226
00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:04,320
Speaker 1: nineties for doing this. You know, now we've got a

227
00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:06,760
Speaker 1: whole bunch of other ways that people look to use

228
00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:10,800
Speaker 1: sort of votes to put people on the political spectrum.

229
00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:13,240
Speaker 1: But there was always when I first started at National Journal,

230
00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:15,439
Speaker 1: when the Almanek would come out, it was always interesting

231
00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:19,080
Speaker 1: how many Democrats are to the right of the most

232
00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:22,280
Speaker 1: liberal Republican and how many Republicans are to the left

233
00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:25,480
Speaker 1: of the most conservative Democrats. And there was always you know,

234
00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:28,320
Speaker 1: and we would lament. Oh, it's getting smaller every year.

235
00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:31,520
Speaker 1: I think it's been a decade since they're the streams

236
00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:34,600
Speaker 1: have crossed, meaning like you know, I think Mansion and

237
00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:37,360
Speaker 1: Collins were like this. If I'm for those of you

238
00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:39,839
Speaker 1: just listening on audio, my hands are very close together

239
00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:43,160
Speaker 1: but not touching, almost in the way it was almost

240
00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:46,719
Speaker 1: felt like they were being repelled. Do you think that

241
00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:49,160
Speaker 1: is a bad thing or a good thing for the

242
00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:49,800
Speaker 1: US center?

243
00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:52,080
Speaker 2: Oh, I think it's I think it's a very bad thing.

244
00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:57,120
Speaker 2: I think that you have to have people on, you know,

245
00:11:57,200 --> 00:11:58,960
Speaker 2: you have to be able to build bridges across the

246
00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:01,240
Speaker 2: logical lines. You know. Sometimes you can do that in

247
00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:04,040
Speaker 2: a strange Bedfellow's way, where you know, you have you know,

248
00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:06,560
Speaker 2: a Bernie Sanders alliance with a Josh Holly or you

249
00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:07,520
Speaker 2: know on some is.

250
00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:09,640
Speaker 1: Sure and you see this in some of these populous Yeah.

251
00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:12,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I but I think that it shouldn't be

252
00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:14,760
Speaker 2: the case that you know, the sort of you know,

253
00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:18,320
Speaker 2: there's no senator in the Democratic caucus who is anywhere

254
00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,480
Speaker 2: close to Republicans on ideology. I could get beat up

255
00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:23,319
Speaker 2: by some of my party for saying that, But I think,

256
00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:25,720
Speaker 2: you know what, if that is the case, you know,

257
00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:28,400
Speaker 2: there are consequences, there are trade offs to taking that approach,

258
00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:30,920
Speaker 2: and that's what we have here where Democrats can only

259
00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:34,160
Speaker 2: win forty seven sentence seats at best, you know, maybe

260
00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:37,800
Speaker 2: straight by to the narrowest imaginable majority, but that's you know,

261
00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:40,240
Speaker 2: there's a consequence of taking that approach and narrowing your

262
00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:42,479
Speaker 2: tent simply means you can win in fewer places.

263
00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:44,920
Speaker 1: Look, and to me, this is the I think the

264
00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:47,880
Speaker 1: baseline of what I remember seeing your press release when

265
00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:49,360
Speaker 1: you first came out. I think an op ed that

266
00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:53,480
Speaker 1: you wrote as well. You know, I think that the

267
00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:59,320
Speaker 1: twenty thirty two presidential election, if you just if Kamala

268
00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:02,640
Speaker 1: Harris carried the same the Democratic candidate carries every state

269
00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:11,040
Speaker 1: that Kamala Harris carried, and they won Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania. Well,

270
00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:12,840
Speaker 1: and right now, that was worth two hundred and seventy

271
00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:16,160
Speaker 1: electoral votes she'd have won right on the nose. That's

272
00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:17,559
Speaker 1: only going to be worth two hundred and fifty nine

273
00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:20,800
Speaker 1: electoral votes come twenty thirty two. That path, so every

274
00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:23,000
Speaker 1: state she carried plus the three in the Midwest, the

275
00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:26,760
Speaker 1: three Midwestern states, and then when you look at Senate seats,

276
00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:30,280
Speaker 1: because I've done this math, if Democrats sweep the seven

277
00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:35,480
Speaker 1: battlegrounds in Senate seats, right, and when every Senate seat

278
00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:38,520
Speaker 1: and every blue state that she carried, the max I

279
00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:39,360
Speaker 1: think is fifty two.

280
00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:41,679
Speaker 2: Yep, that's right.

281
00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:44,880
Speaker 1: I mean you just said thirty six states at one point,

282
00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:48,000
Speaker 1: which is why. I mean, let's look at Barack Obama's

283
00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,079
Speaker 1: first year, that six month period when you had sixty

284
00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:54,560
Speaker 1: Senate seats. All right, it was a brief period, and

285
00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:56,679
Speaker 1: it was you know, we can yes, it was some

286
00:13:56,760 --> 00:13:59,280
Speaker 1: weird you know, you had the Specter party switch and

287
00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:02,679
Speaker 1: all that. But the fact of the matter is, I

288
00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:04,720
Speaker 1: don't know what a path to sixty would look like.

289
00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:07,040
Speaker 1: Let's say that was your goal, you know, got to

290
00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:10,520
Speaker 1: get to sixty Senate seats. What's that path look like

291
00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:11,600
Speaker 1: in today's politics.

292
00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:13,640
Speaker 2: Well, that is our goal. I mean, that's what Searchlight

293
00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:15,800
Speaker 2: is here to do. We are trying to craft an

294
00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:19,160
Speaker 2: agenda and an approach that will allow Democrats to aim

295
00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:21,240
Speaker 2: at sixty Senate seats. We talk a lot about this

296
00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:25,320
Speaker 2: idea of super majority thinking here, and a supermajority mindset

297
00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:28,200
Speaker 2: is not to aim at two hundred and seventy electoral

298
00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:30,560
Speaker 2: votes and to try to scrape by there or aim

299
00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:32,720
Speaker 2: at you know, narrow majorities in the House and Senate.

300
00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:35,960
Speaker 2: It's to aim at three hundred and sixty five electoral votes,

301
00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:38,160
Speaker 2: which is what Obama won in two thousand and eight.

302
00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:40,600
Speaker 2: And it's to aim at sixty Senate seats and then

303
00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:42,880
Speaker 2: work backwards from there. So you know, what that looks

304
00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:47,760
Speaker 2: like is much more flexibility on issues across the board.

305
00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:49,680
Speaker 2: You know, I personally think that if you were to

306
00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:53,640
Speaker 2: sort of devise a basic template, you know, and again

307
00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:55,680
Speaker 2: I've sort of am allergic to templates. I think part

308
00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:57,840
Speaker 2: of what we're trying to do here is create more flexibility.

309
00:14:57,880 --> 00:14:59,880
Speaker 2: But just for the sake of argument, you know, let's

310
00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,960
Speaker 2: route this in some concrete idea of ideology. I think,

311
00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:07,400
Speaker 2: you know, economic populism is a powerful force. It's so

312
00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:10,600
Speaker 2: powerful that Trump has embraced it. Trump has moved to

313
00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:13,960
Speaker 2: the center on issues like social security and Medicare.

314
00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:17,640
Speaker 1: And the only reason Republicans got have won the popular

315
00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:20,160
Speaker 1: vote exactly right, I mean, I think it is at

316
00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:23,560
Speaker 1: that specific decision he doesn't make that that you know,

317
00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:26,160
Speaker 1: we all there's a lot of people that you know,

318
00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:29,000
Speaker 1: say Paul Ryan had high character guy and all of

319
00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:35,920
Speaker 1: those things. But the Paul Ryan view of entitlements was

320
00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:39,320
Speaker 1: a losing issue for the Republican Party, which is why

321
00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:40,760
Speaker 1: Mitt Romney never won the.

322
00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:43,440
Speaker 2: President And this is part of what our theory of

323
00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:46,960
Speaker 2: the case is is that a Democratic presidential candidate can

324
00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:50,760
Speaker 2: just decide to embrace a different set of policy positions

325
00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:52,840
Speaker 2: like we are here to help provide that infrastructure and

326
00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:55,680
Speaker 2: help you know, create those ideas and provide the air cover.

327
00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:57,280
Speaker 1: Put a little bit of a blue stamp on it.

328
00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:00,080
Speaker 1: So it doesn't feel so hard for some left what

329
00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:01,840
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe right.

330
00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:04,760
Speaker 2: But you were there. It's it's difficult to overstate how

331
00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:08,520
Speaker 2: sort of encased in concrete. The conventional wisdom was in

332
00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:12,520
Speaker 2: twenty sixteen that that entitlement cuts were part of what

333
00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:14,800
Speaker 2: you had to be in favor of in order to

334
00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:17,560
Speaker 2: succeed in a Republican primary. You know, Paul Ryan was

335
00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:20,280
Speaker 2: the vice presidential nominee in twenty twelve. He was the

336
00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:22,360
Speaker 2: Speaker of the House by the time the primary was

337
00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:26,160
Speaker 2: in full swing. In twenty sixteen, Ryanism was considered you

338
00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:30,960
Speaker 2: know orthodoxy among Republicans. Trump came as the stool right,

339
00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:33,760
Speaker 2: that's irresponsibility, it's right. And Trump just threw it all

340
00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:35,720
Speaker 2: out the window, you know. I mean, I remember him

341
00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:37,480
Speaker 2: standing on the debate stage. You know, the Iraq War

342
00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:40,040
Speaker 2: is another issue that was considered you know, orthodoxy. In

343
00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:42,440
Speaker 2: twenty fifteen, he stood on a debate stage in South

344
00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:45,120
Speaker 2: Carolina and he turned to Jeb Bush and said, I

345
00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:47,680
Speaker 2: think the Iraq War that your brother started was a big,

346
00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:51,920
Speaker 2: fat mistake, you know. And so it is really difficult

347
00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:57,400
Speaker 2: to imagine a Democratic candidate diverging from their party and

348
00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:01,560
Speaker 2: taking stances in opposition to the Democratic ideology on that level,

349
00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:05,000
Speaker 2: you know, of that magnitude. But that's what we need,

350
00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:07,879
Speaker 2: is we need Democrats to say, you know, we are

351
00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:10,520
Speaker 2: here to break that rigidity, we are here to open

352
00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:13,320
Speaker 2: up a new pathway and to bring in more voters.

353
00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:16,159
Speaker 2: And you know, Trump, it is an underappreciated aspect of

354
00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:19,239
Speaker 2: his appeal that he was truly heterodox. He defied his

355
00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:23,160
Speaker 2: party's orthodoxy on three or four or even more very

356
00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:26,280
Speaker 2: high profile issues that were considered core to the Republican ideology,

357
00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:28,399
Speaker 2: and that's part of why people saw him as a

358
00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:31,000
Speaker 2: different kind of Republican. Oh, I'm convinced.

359
00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:32,880
Speaker 1: And this is also why you can sort of see

360
00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:35,320
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm convinced that this is a coalition it's

361
00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:37,520
Speaker 1: not going to be able to hold itself together without

362
00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:42,119
Speaker 1: him in whatever you know, we you know, set aside

363
00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:44,760
Speaker 1: the character issue the guy has the guy created a

364
00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:48,840
Speaker 1: coalition that was unique. It was durable for him, right,

365
00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:52,040
Speaker 1: It's not really been transferable, but it's been durable for him.

366
00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:55,320
Speaker 1: And the thing is is you can see it, right,

367
00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:59,800
Speaker 1: the conversation on snap benefits, the conversation on healthcare, they're

368
00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:03,280
Speaker 1: singing off the same song sheet because they're actually a

369
00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:06,560
Speaker 1: coalition that that sort of got forged together and culture,

370
00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:09,280
Speaker 1: and they're they're all over the place on economic policy,

371
00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:12,120
Speaker 1: and I think that's where this thing starts to break

372
00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:12,880
Speaker 1: apart pretty soon.

373
00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:15,280
Speaker 2: I think that's right. I mean, that's that's the optimistic

374
00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:18,600
Speaker 2: view for sure, and I think it's probably the right one, you.

375
00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:22,400
Speaker 1: Know, especially the economy keeps feeling the way definitely, that's right.

376
00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:25,000
Speaker 1: This in it it's a I always say, it's like

377
00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:26,520
Speaker 1: if you have a little bit of money, this economy

378
00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:29,320
Speaker 1: is okay. You know, everything's a little more expensive, but

379
00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:31,600
Speaker 1: it's okay. If you have some money in the stock market,

380
00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:34,560
Speaker 1: you feel like, okay, I'm I've got Pad. But if

381
00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:37,160
Speaker 1: you don't have Pad, this economy is horrible.

382
00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:40,159
Speaker 2: Right, just therendous. It's the Disneyland phenomenon. Right. If you

383
00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:43,199
Speaker 2: can afford the express pass, you know, it's great. But

384
00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:45,120
Speaker 2: if you can't, you know, you're stuck in three hour

385
00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:47,640
Speaker 2: lines the whole time for one ride. So yeah, it's

386
00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:50,199
Speaker 2: it's it's you know, it's you know. I worked for

387
00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:53,879
Speaker 2: one of your listeners, remember John Edwards the Center of

388
00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:55,960
Speaker 2: North Carolina in two thousand and eight. He talked about

389
00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:58,520
Speaker 2: two Americas, and I think that's that's what we're seeing

390
00:18:58,960 --> 00:18:59,639
Speaker 2: these days.

391
00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:03,720
Speaker 1: This episode of the Chuck Podcast is brought to you

392
00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:06,720
Speaker 1: by Wild Grain. Wild Grain is the first bake from

393
00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:11,959
Speaker 1: Frozen subscription box for our teasonal breads, seasonal pastries, and

394
00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:16,160
Speaker 1: fresh pastas, plus all items conveniently bake in twenty five

395
00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:19,600
Speaker 1: minutes or less. Unlike many store bought options, Wild Grain

396
00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:23,480
Speaker 1: uses simple ingredients you can pronounce and a slow fermentation

397
00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:26,919
Speaker 1: process that can be easier on your belly and richer

398
00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:27,679
Speaker 1: in nutrients.

399
00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:28,680
Speaker 2: And antioxidants.

400
00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:33,000
Speaker 1: Wildgrain's boxes are fully customizable. They're constantly adding seasonal and

401
00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:35,919
Speaker 1: limited timing products for you to enjoy. In addition to

402
00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:38,600
Speaker 1: their classic box, they now feature a gluten free box

403
00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:41,719
Speaker 1: and a plant based box. I checked out the gluten

404
00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:43,719
Speaker 1: free box and let me tell you, they have a

405
00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:45,960
Speaker 1: gluten free sour dough bread.

406
00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:46,960
Speaker 2: It is.

407
00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:49,240
Speaker 1: We got two loads of it and we've done one

408
00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:53,040
Speaker 1: loaf already. It's a cranberry and almond sour dough bread.

409
00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:55,760
Speaker 1: It's like the best raisin bread you've ever had, except

410
00:19:55,800 --> 00:20:00,159
Speaker 1: it's not raisin. It's great. You're gonna love this. You

411
00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:01,879
Speaker 1: know it's hit or miss if you mess around in

412
00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:02,960
Speaker 1: the gluten free bread world.

413
00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:04,960
Speaker 2: This is a hit. Seriously.

414
00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:08,240
Speaker 1: I was impressed, so look for a limited time. Wildgrain

415
00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:11,040
Speaker 1: is offering our listeners thirty dollars off your first box

416
00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:13,600
Speaker 1: plus free croissants in every box when you go to

417
00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:18,159
Speaker 1: wildgrain dot com slash podcast to start your subscription, follow

418
00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:21,320
Speaker 1: these instructions. Free croissants in every box, thirty dollars off

419
00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:23,600
Speaker 1: your first box when you go to wildgrain dot com

420
00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:28,000
Speaker 1: slash podcast. That's wildgrain dot com slash podcast, or simply

421
00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:32,600
Speaker 1: use the promo code toodcast at checkout. Always use the code,

422
00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:33,400
Speaker 1: get the discount.

423
00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:36,280
Speaker 2: I'm telling you it's excellent, excellent bread.

424
00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:41,919
Speaker 1: Boy, that speech would be really resident today.

425
00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:43,440
Speaker 2: I agree more so.

426
00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:48,760
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, Edwards, he was applaud human being.

427
00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:52,320
Speaker 1: There is a ton and I sort of I have

428
00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:54,720
Speaker 1: not to go off on a tangent here.

429
00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:55,320
Speaker 2: I have.

430
00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:59,680
Speaker 1: I think there's more empathy that the Edwards family deserves.

431
00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:05,600
Speaker 1: You never get over losing a child, and I've always

432
00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:08,919
Speaker 1: thought that their life, so, you know, and it threw

433
00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:11,640
Speaker 1: him into politics, like in some ways it did, but

434
00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:15,520
Speaker 1: you know that that I think that you can't judge

435
00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:19,440
Speaker 1: Edwards without understanding that. So I'm always a little more empathetic,

436
00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:22,520
Speaker 1: I think than the average person on him. But boy,

437
00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:26,320
Speaker 1: his you know, and what he was was it's old

438
00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:29,080
Speaker 1: Southern populace. And it's no different than Zell Miller, Bill Clinton,

439
00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:32,120
Speaker 1: Dick Riley. I think about all everything you're describing here.

440
00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:35,040
Speaker 1: I think about what Trump is doing. This is what

441
00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:39,119
Speaker 1: the Southern Democrats were. Those Southern Democratic governors were. They

442
00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:41,160
Speaker 1: would they were like, hey, government can be a good

443
00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:44,399
Speaker 1: thing for you, and we want to help you. But

444
00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:47,280
Speaker 1: they were also culturally somewhat conservative, right, you're Zell Miller's

445
00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:50,680
Speaker 1: or Bill Clinton's, you're Dick Riley's. But those southern governors

446
00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:54,239
Speaker 1: of the eighties, in some ways, the economic policies they

447
00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:57,440
Speaker 1: were pushing are exactly what's popular.

448
00:21:57,080 --> 00:21:59,400
Speaker 2: Today, that's right. I mean, you know John Edwards, son

449
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:01,040
Speaker 2: of a mill worker, you know, I mean he was

450
00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:04,960
Speaker 2: in touch with with regular people. And you know that

451
00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:07,240
Speaker 2: that economic populism, I mean, that was the foundation of

452
00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:09,640
Speaker 2: the New Deal coalition, you know, I mean that that

453
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:13,040
Speaker 2: was the foundation of lbj's coalition too, you know, as

454
00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:14,760
Speaker 2: you mentioned your father, I mean, you know, some of

455
00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:18,080
Speaker 2: the cultural stuff that's that's the you know, on the

456
00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:20,679
Speaker 2: Republican side, it's it's can you hold people together on

457
00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:25,520
Speaker 2: cultural issues while you pass economic policies that primarily benefit

458
00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:28,640
Speaker 2: the wealthiest and the big corporations. And on the Democratic side,

459
00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:32,080
Speaker 2: it's can you hold people together on economic populism issues,

460
00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:34,879
Speaker 2: you know, while you often take stances on cultural issues

461
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:36,840
Speaker 2: that the American people don't agree with. And I think

462
00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:41,240
Speaker 2: when Democrats and liberals succeed, it's when they're able to

463
00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:45,720
Speaker 2: center their message on those core economic populist ideas and

464
00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:48,960
Speaker 2: provide some flexibility on cultural issues in a way that

465
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:50,720
Speaker 2: will allow us to win in more states.

466
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:55,760
Speaker 1: Let me introduce an uncomfortable question about Democrats. I can

467
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:58,520
Speaker 1: make an argument that the four Democratic presidents of my

468
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:02,720
Speaker 1: lifetime that have been elect Carter, Clinton, Obama, and Biden,

469
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:06,480
Speaker 1: none of them win without the economic downturn that was

470
00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:10,080
Speaker 1: happening during their initial campaign. And I say that in

471
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:13,159
Speaker 1: that is that the only path to the presidency for

472
00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:13,760
Speaker 1: a Democrat.

473
00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:18,120
Speaker 2: Well, I think what that those downturns do is they,

474
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:21,160
Speaker 2: you know, when you're in times of prosperity, people people

475
00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:23,680
Speaker 2: gravitate more towards cultural issues, you know, and I think

476
00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:28,360
Speaker 2: that's that's sort of a pattern there. And then Republicans,

477
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:32,560
Speaker 2: you know, win on cultural issues, pass policies that benefit

478
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:35,000
Speaker 2: the top one percent, and often you know, run up

479
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:38,680
Speaker 2: huge deficits despite their you know, their claim to care

480
00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:41,680
Speaker 2: about this corresponsibility. And then that leads to a crash

481
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:43,399
Speaker 2: and Democrats have to come in, and you know, and

482
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:47,320
Speaker 2: it refocuses the public's attention on how unbalanced and tilted

483
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:49,720
Speaker 2: towards the one percent Republicans policies, where I don't think

484
00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:56,640
Speaker 2: it's a necessary precondition, but you know, it certainly focuses voters'

485
00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:01,480
Speaker 2: minds on the unfairness and gross inequity of Republican's economic policies.

486
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:06,480
Speaker 1: For sure, Does that stark reality because I could argue

487
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:09,480
Speaker 1: that the last Democrat to win the White House without

488
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:15,280
Speaker 1: help from a poor economy was Kennedy? Does that stark

489
00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:21,359
Speaker 1: reality mean that the Democrats should be less leaning into

490
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:22,359
Speaker 1: some cultural issues.

491
00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:26,560
Speaker 2: I yeah, I think that's one hundred percent the case.

492
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:30,399
Speaker 2: I think that, you know, part of what some of

493
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:32,560
Speaker 2: the work that we've done here at Searchlight has shown

494
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:36,560
Speaker 2: is that, you know, it's not just that we are

495
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:37,960
Speaker 2: out of stuff with the public on a lot of

496
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:40,399
Speaker 2: these cultural issues purely on the merits. It's also that

497
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 2: focusing on them distracts the public's attention from the economic issues.

498
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:49,320
Speaker 2: It's what we call a crowding out effect, where you know, simply,

499
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:51,800
Speaker 2: you know, you listen to the average Democrats stump speech today,

500
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,760
Speaker 2: it's a laundry list, and they go down and they

501
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,280
Speaker 2: acknowledge every issue under the sun, you know.

502
00:24:57,240 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 1: And the land acknowledgment, and I say this, I'm not

503
00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:02,560
Speaker 1: trying to be snarky about it, but I just that.

504
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,639
Speaker 2: Listen that, you know, the DNC's most recent meetings started

505
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:08,720
Speaker 2: out with one and so I think you know, look,

506
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:10,920
Speaker 2: Republicans will seize on that and they'll attack you for it,

507
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:13,119
Speaker 2: you know, but you don't have to give them so much, ammo.

508
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:15,920
Speaker 2: And we and we do that all the time. And

509
00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:18,639
Speaker 2: so then you know, it is not it is not

510
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:22,119
Speaker 2: inaccurate for a voter to fix to themselves. Hmm. This

511
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 2: democrat seems more focused on these cultural issues that prior.

512
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:28,640
Speaker 2: I don't really agree with that. Yeah, so so where

513
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:30,440
Speaker 2: is your economics? You know what's really interesting though, Chuck,

514
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:32,959
Speaker 2: is somebody who did an incredible job of avoiding that

515
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:37,760
Speaker 2: crowding out effect was Zoron Mamdani. We went through and

516
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:41,280
Speaker 2: we analyzed his paid media and you know, you do

517
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:44,199
Speaker 2: a word cloud based on the analysis, and in you know,

518
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:48,120
Speaker 2: words like affordable rent, freeze, billionaires, like all those words

519
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:50,440
Speaker 2: were huge in the cloud. You literally could not find

520
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:54,639
Speaker 2: the words climate change or LGBTQ issues didn't appear in

521
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:58,399
Speaker 2: the cloud because didn't appear in the cloud either. He

522
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:01,200
Speaker 2: chose not to talk about it, you know, and so

523
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,120
Speaker 2: he became sort of almost like, you know, a joke

524
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 2: by the end of the campaign that he could take

525
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 2: any conversation and steer it back towards affordability, right, So

526
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,320
Speaker 2: that kind of message. And of course Zorn cares about

527
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:14,879
Speaker 2: climate change. Of course he cares about LGBTQ rights. You know,

528
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,160
Speaker 2: he's not throwing those causes under the bus. He's making

529
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:22,240
Speaker 2: a conscious decision to focus his campaign relentlessly on kitchen

530
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:24,399
Speaker 2: table issues. So you know, I wouldn't take all of

531
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,280
Speaker 2: his ideological positions and try to apply them in other states,

532
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 2: but I certainly would take that discipline practice and avoiding

533
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:33,720
Speaker 2: crowding out that he demonstrated as a lesson that can

534
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 2: be universalizable in other places.

535
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,920
Speaker 1: So look, we're taping just to timestamp this on a Wednesday,

536
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 1: November twelve, where the government is in the process of

537
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:49,199
Speaker 1: being reopened. Perhaps the release of the Epstein emails has

538
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:54,160
Speaker 1: distracted the left's anger at the at Schumer and the

539
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 1: Democratic senators that chose to put a pause in this debate.

540
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 1: And I call it a pause because I I'll just

541
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,720
Speaker 1: be I think a better messenger. You know, I think

542
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:06,560
Speaker 1: you and I both though Bill Clinton would have been

543
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:10,119
Speaker 1: able to say we're going to feed people, we're going

544
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:12,080
Speaker 1: to let you get to grandma, and we're going to

545
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:14,679
Speaker 1: make sure Grandma comes home to you to this holidays.

546
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,720
Speaker 1: We haven't given we're we're not given up this fight

547
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 1: on healthcare, and in fact, we've got more people focused

548
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:23,359
Speaker 1: on it than ever. We've got them super nervous about it.

549
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:25,399
Speaker 1: But yeah, we're going to reopen the government. And this

550
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:27,360
Speaker 1: is why we're going to reopen the government. But it's

551
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:29,440
Speaker 1: only for the next and they they're on the clock

552
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 1: and they have sixty five days. Why was that not

553
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 1: an effective way to sell the reopening of this government.

554
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 2: I think expectations got completely out of whack, you know,

555
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,479
Speaker 2: And this is this is a responsibility of leadership, you know, Frankly,

556
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 2: is that you know, the idea Republicans were never going

557
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:47,119
Speaker 2: to give Democrats a full year extension of the subsidies.

558
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 2: You know, this was just not now without a fight.

559
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 2: I mean they still might. I still think there will be.

560
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 1: My theory is it won't be a majority of Republicans

561
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:57,200
Speaker 1: that do it, but that there's going to be enough

562
00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:58,119
Speaker 1: to force the issue.

563
00:27:58,200 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 2: Well, I think that's right. I mean, I think as

564
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 2: the political pain takes hold, you know, that's that's probably

565
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:05,879
Speaker 2: the case. But you know, that's gotta that's gotta have.

566
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:07,800
Speaker 2: You got to give that time to breathe, and give

567
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:09,920
Speaker 2: that time for people to start feeling that, you know,

568
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 2: I don't want them to feel the pain, but but

569
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 2: because of the Republican's policy choices, they're going to So

570
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 2: I think, look, you know, I mean, the the problem

571
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:23,160
Speaker 2: with being a congressional leader is that the skills that

572
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 2: help you get that job aren't always the same skills

573
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:30,919
Speaker 2: that make you good at communicating with the public, you know.

574
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,960
Speaker 2: And so it is a very inside baseball job. It

575
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:35,880
Speaker 2: is about. You know, you worked for.

576
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 1: A senator who was really good behind the scenes, and

577
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 1: he was was the best community care let's tell you do.

578
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 2: You'd be the first to say it, you know. I

579
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:43,680
Speaker 2: mean it was.

580
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 1: I say this I love talking to right the minute

581
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 1: it was on the record, his everything changed about it.

582
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 2: Well, he didn't care, you know. I mean that's the

583
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 2: other thing is that he didn't care that he didn't

584
00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 2: have a you know, uh, you know, flowery sound bite.

585
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:03,000
Speaker 2: You know, he would give you exactly what he wanted

586
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 2: to say. He'd say it very quietly, you know. Uh.

587
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 2: And and that was it because he had the confidence

588
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 2: of knowing that he you know, he thought through the

589
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 2: strategy that he had the caucus behind him. So it's

590
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 2: always been the case. I mean, Nancy Pelosi was an

591
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 2: incredible leader, but was also you know, a huge target

592
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 2: of Republican attacks. Right, So it's the best communicator, that's

593
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 2: that's right, And it's it's a difficult combination of skills,

594
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 2: you know, and especially today in a media environment that

595
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 2: prioritizes or that you know, where the ability to communicate

596
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 2: across mediums, to be natural on camera, to be quick

597
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 2: with the quip, you know. It's so that's just something

598
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:39,720
Speaker 2: that is evolving and we're going to have to figure

599
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 2: that out as as the caucus decides, you know, what's

600
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 2: the right mix they want to see in the next leader.

601
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 1: So it's funny, it's it's one of these cases where

602
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 1: it's Schumer's fault that this is being misinterpreted, whether it's

603
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 1: you know, it's this is not It's not as much

604
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 1: about the tactics. It's more about how he communicated.

605
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 2: I think there's a there's a communication aspect, but there's

606
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:07,280
Speaker 2: also a decision making aspect to this too, which is

607
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 2: that at some there was never really an end game here, right,

608
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 2: and at some point.

609
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 1: And every shutdown ends almost exactly how this shutdown is

610
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 1: exactly the same. Whether right, you don't get what you want.

611
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 2: You never get up. Literally never in the history of

612
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:25,120
Speaker 2: shutdowns has the side that is demanding a major policy

613
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 2: concession gotten that concession. Right, It just doesn't happen. And so,

614
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 2: you know, the decision to do in the first place,

615
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 2: I think probably that was inevitable, especially after the one

616
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 2: in the spring. The caucus just wasn't you could feel it.

617
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 1: It's like letting steam out of about you kind of

618
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 1: had and and and they found the issue, right, that's right.

619
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 1: I look, the reality is this was a shutdown in

620
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:48,320
Speaker 1: search of a rationale and they found a Russian Yeah.

621
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:50,480
Speaker 2: It was and and and they succeeded in elevating the

622
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 2: conversation about healthcare they have not succeeded up to this

623
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 2: point and being able to drive a consistent, clear message

624
00:30:56,600 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 2: about healthcare. So they did that. Trump's numbers came down significantly,

625
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:03,520
Speaker 2: whether you know, that's a function of the healthcare conversation.

626
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 2: You know, images of the east wing getting demolished, whatever

627
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 2: it was, you know it. You know, part of the

628
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 2: reason the east wing conversation was so salient was that

629
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 2: we were in the middle of a shutdown and he's

630
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:15,720
Speaker 2: out here building a ballroom, you know, So they really

631
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 2: did a great job driving a message setting them on

632
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 2: their terms. You know, I think a lot. I think

633
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 2: a lot about the fall of twenty eleven, where Democrats

634
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:26,479
Speaker 2: came off a really tough summer, you know, coming off

635
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 2: bad in the terminent in the first place, the whole

636
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 2: debt ceiling, you know, debate in twenty eleven got our

637
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 2: butts handed to us. But then we were able in

638
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 2: the fall to shift the conversation more towards our terms

639
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 2: by shifting the focus to what we call the Jobs

640
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 2: Act at the time, you know, which was just a

641
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,400
Speaker 2: bill we put together out of the most popular policies,

642
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:47,440
Speaker 2: was never really going to pass. But you know, President

643
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:49,960
Speaker 2: Obama did a speech to the Joint Session of Congress,

644
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 2: you know, and we put that bill on the floor

645
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 2: and made Republicans vote on it again and again, and

646
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 2: we didn't pass it, but it got us back on

647
00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 2: our front foot going into twenty twelve, and we were

648
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 2: able to sort of take that momentum going to twenty twelve.

649
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:04,720
Speaker 2: So I hope that you know, the legitimate anger the

650
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 2: Democrats are feeling right now because I think they were

651
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 2: fed some false expectations. You know, we should be able

652
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:13,600
Speaker 2: to move on and say, look, we take the good here,

653
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,880
Speaker 2: which was driving the conversation about healthcare, getting the conversation

654
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 2: back on our terms, and play that forward into the midterms.

655
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting they hold Dems in disarray, you know,

656
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,960
Speaker 1: the fun meme that gets put around, and I think

657
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 1: about the fractures that were you know, you sort of

658
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 1: it's like watching you know, a fault line start to

659
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 1: start to crack, and you see the ones on the

660
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 1: left and you see the ones on the right. The

661
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:40,360
Speaker 1: divide on the left right now is not is really

662
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 1: just tactical, This is not what's interesting is is you know,

663
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 1: you talked about the word cloud of mom Donnie. You

664
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 1: probably could have applied that to Spamburger and Cheryl right

665
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 1: and they both you know, as far as messaging, we're

666
00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 1: talking about the same issues. They may have leaned in

667
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 1: different ways and may have talked to different constituencies, but

668
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 1: they were always on the affordability message. So like, this

669
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 1: is one of those cases where it's like Democrat, you

670
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 1: guys are all rowing in the same direction, and you

671
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 1: still want to.

672
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:15,240
Speaker 2: Fight right like this we find it out like what's

673
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 2: the line Jurassic Park? You know, life, life finds a

674
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:20,960
Speaker 2: way right disarray finds a way with Democrats.

675
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 1: But the big tact I always say, the biggest I

676
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 1: think the biggest divide right now on the left is

677
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:28,719
Speaker 1: do you start to look past Trump or do you

678
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 1: continue to fight Trump? And I think it is an

679
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 1: either or conversation, even though some might argue, no, you

680
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 1: got to do both. There are entities that should be

681
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 1: thinking about fighting Trump. Like, That's what I expect my

682
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 1: ACLU to do. And that's what I expect. You know,

683
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 1: where the hell are the good trial lawyers around? Like,

684
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:51,320
Speaker 1: you know, ultimately I expect the courts to be doing that,

685
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:55,480
Speaker 1: right I expect the elected officials to be thinking about, Okay,

686
00:33:55,840 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 1: what's next? Right where? I have a feeling know where

687
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 1: you are. But I assume you're on the side of

688
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 1: it's about thinking of the post Trump.

689
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 2: One hundred percent. I mean that's why we that's why

690
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 2: I created Searchlight, you know, I mean, that is what

691
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 2: we're trying to do here, is to craft a vision

692
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 2: that will get people excited about the prospect of democratic

693
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 2: governance again. And we're going to go big on how

694
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:20,520
Speaker 2: we're thinking about that. But I think, you know, look,

695
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:22,240
Speaker 2: I think there's also a little bit of a difference

696
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:25,520
Speaker 2: between a mid term election and a presidential election. And

697
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:28,440
Speaker 2: so for me, my formative elections were two thousand and

698
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:31,759
Speaker 2: six in two thousand and eight, and Democrats did a

699
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:34,720
Speaker 2: good enough job in two thousand and six of putting

700
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 2: forward a positive vision. They had this six roh six

701
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:40,400
Speaker 2: agenda that focused on you know, we were the original

702
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:43,040
Speaker 2: drain the swamp. I mean we wanted after our folio

703
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 2: was a really salient issue that year, hugely salient. I mean,

704
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 2: you know, so every opportunity to make corruption salient again.

705
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 2: This year, we had ideas about you know, getting out

706
00:34:53,120 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 2: of Iraq, minimum wage and ethics reform. Uh. And then

707
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 2: you know that was and that was solid, right, I mean,

708
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 2: because you have to have something that every Democrat in

709
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 2: every corner of the country can can run on.

710
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:10,440
Speaker 1: And you guys are running in tough states. I mean

711
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:14,560
Speaker 1: think about six I mean the six pickups to get

712
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 1: they needed six senates. It's less more than what it

713
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:20,319
Speaker 1: is for this cycle. And you had to win in Montana.

714
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:23,440
Speaker 1: Virginia was a big deal at the time because that

715
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:27,879
Speaker 1: was the candidate, a sitting Republican senator that many thought

716
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:31,239
Speaker 1: was going to be a presidential candidate until he sort

717
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:38,360
Speaker 1: of his own words, got in, got got him in trouble, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Missouri. Right, Like,

718
00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:42,839
Speaker 1: think of the the antenna that Tester wins in six,

719
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 1: mccaskell is in O six. You have Casey winning in Pennsylvania,

720
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:51,600
Speaker 1: You had Shared Brown in Ohio, Jim Webb. Look at

721
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:53,920
Speaker 1: all the people I'm describing all of them in the

722
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:55,800
Speaker 1: economic populis category.

723
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:57,920
Speaker 2: One hundred percent. Jim Webb was very culturally conservative on

724
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:00,160
Speaker 2: a lot of issues, but was was was a comd

725
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:05,360
Speaker 2: economic populist, you know. And John Tester, Claire mccaskell, you

726
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:08,360
Speaker 2: know the same. And I remember that was you know

727
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 2: when mccaskell won, you know, at his watch party, read

728
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 2: got down and kissed, kissed the television because I think

729
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 2: she was the one who put us over. Although actually

730
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:17,800
Speaker 2: think the Virginia election, I think because it was late counting.

731
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:20,960
Speaker 1: I was on the air for that, like literally called

732
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:22,440
Speaker 1: people about Fairfax County.

733
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 2: How much more is coming in? Right? Yeah? But that's

734
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:27,800
Speaker 2: the thing is it was defied expectations. You know, the

735
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:30,400
Speaker 2: pundits did not expect us to take back the Senate.

736
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 2: I think the House was expected, although I think the

737
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 2: margin was higher than what people predicted, but the Senate

738
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:39,080
Speaker 2: was considered a reach at best. And so that's but

739
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:41,319
Speaker 2: that's where we find ourselves again here. And so for me,

740
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:44,680
Speaker 2: the litmus test for success though in twenty twenty six

741
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:46,760
Speaker 2: really should be do we take back the Senate because

742
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:50,399
Speaker 2: you have to push yourself through there? Yeah, because look

743
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:52,799
Speaker 2: in the cycles where the you know, the cycles are,

744
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:55,320
Speaker 2: you know, a lot of it is determined by the fundamentals.

745
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:58,520
Speaker 2: The Senate is a gnarly beast because you only it's

746
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 2: resistant to big swings because you only have a third

747
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 2: of the chamber up for reelection at any election, whereas

748
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:06,440
Speaker 2: you know, everybody in the House is every seat in

749
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:08,880
Speaker 2: the House is up. So what you've got to do

750
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,400
Speaker 2: is you really got to maximize your gains in the

751
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:14,799
Speaker 2: cycles where the fundamentals are in your favor. And for us,

752
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 2: that maximizing our gains would would look like, you know,

753
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:20,759
Speaker 2: winning holding all the seats where we have incumbents up,

754
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:23,960
Speaker 2: and then winning you know, all of the swing states

755
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:26,719
Speaker 2: and then throwing in some ones that are reaches for us, like.

756
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:28,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I look at the you know the

757
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:30,560
Speaker 1: path I mean, you know, North Carolina, Maine or quick

758
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:33,359
Speaker 1: and then you start going, oh boy, okay, you need

759
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:36,960
Speaker 1: Ohio to come in again. You probably need one of

760
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:38,880
Speaker 1: the following and then you need one of the following

761
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:42,359
Speaker 1: three Alaska, Iowa, Texas, right, and then you don't want

762
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:44,239
Speaker 1: to be you know, then you got to sort of

763
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:47,279
Speaker 1: probably throwing a couple others like you did that six

764
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:50,319
Speaker 1: for oh six. There were two other races that were

765
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 1: top tier races in that last month of the campaign.

766
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:56,320
Speaker 1: One was Harold Ford's Tennessee race against It that was

767
00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 1: a Ford corker, was a competitive race. And then you

768
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:03,880
Speaker 1: I think Jim Peterson in Arizona, if I remember, that's right, Kyle, that's.

769
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:05,399
Speaker 2: Right, And I mean you look, you know, so yeah,

770
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:10,680
Speaker 2: you know, we look Ohio, Iowa, Alaska. We have held

771
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:13,200
Speaker 2: Senate seats in all three of those states within the

772
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:16,040
Speaker 2: last ten years. We should be able to win there again.

773
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:18,120
Speaker 2: And then yeah, you've got it. You've got to reach

774
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:21,280
Speaker 2: in a place like Texas. That's how you put together

775
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:24,320
Speaker 2: Senate majorities, you know. And what's crazy is that even.

776
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:26,680
Speaker 1: That argued Kansas and Mississippi to be on the mat

777
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:31,359
Speaker 1: and you look at those two there, they're both there

778
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 1: are what I call green shoots for Democrats. In both

779
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:36,799
Speaker 1: of those states, but they need some work, Like you've

780
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 1: got to actually tend that guard.

781
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:40,440
Speaker 2: You had a democratic government, Cathleen's we have currently have

782
00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:43,200
Speaker 2: a democratic governor, you know, I mean, the Democrats can

783
00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:44,080
Speaker 2: win in these states.

784
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:46,799
Speaker 1: Sixteen to the last twenty four years in Kansas has

785
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:47,719
Speaker 1: been that's right.

786
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 2: That's right, talk about economic populism. I mean, that's the

787
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 2: home of prairie populism. And yeah, exactly. And so it's

788
00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:59,440
Speaker 2: really a choice, you know. I mean, Democrats can simply

789
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:03,520
Speaker 2: choose tomorrow to start running on a mix of issues

790
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:06,920
Speaker 2: that can appeal to folks in those states, the way

791
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 2: that Trump just simply decided to throw core tenets of

792
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:13,400
Speaker 2: Republican orthodoxy out out the window. And you know, again,

793
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 2: that doesn't mean that the entire party has to shift

794
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 2: its position on some of these cultural issues. It just

795
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 2: means we have to embrace people who are going to

796
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:23,600
Speaker 2: have different views than us, because they are the only

797
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:25,440
Speaker 2: ones who can win in states like that.

798
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:31,520
Speaker 1: How do you think the unofficial presidential campaign presidential candidates

799
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:34,200
Speaker 1: are doing right now in moving message? Because I look

800
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:36,319
Speaker 1: at a guy like Gavin Newsom, who, on one hand,

801
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:39,759
Speaker 1: it's impressive to me how much the bases embraced him

802
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:42,200
Speaker 1: and that they love the fact that he's fighting. But

803
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:45,480
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, he's introduced himself as

804
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:48,919
Speaker 1: one of the great DNC chairs of all time. Right,

805
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:52,839
Speaker 1: Like he's meaning like he's attacked, he's winning on tactics.

806
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:53,279
Speaker 2: Right.

807
00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:57,880
Speaker 1: It's not as if there's some great policy proposal that

808
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 1: is just taking the world by storm. So I'm a

809
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:06,160
Speaker 1: skeptic that this holds for him, right that, because this

810
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:10,280
Speaker 1: is a process moment. Let's a policy moment. But in general,

811
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 1: how would you you know? I had Bashir, I've done,

812
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:15,640
Speaker 1: interviewed Pher, I've seen, We've got the rom Stump speech.

813
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:18,520
Speaker 1: I've got to be interviewing by the time this hits well.

814
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:22,200
Speaker 1: I've interviewed Wes Moore at Texas the Texas Tribune Festival.

815
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 1: What what do you think so far of the of

816
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:29,120
Speaker 1: the field and how they've tried to communicate about twenty.

817
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:30,799
Speaker 2: Eight Yeah, I mean we are we are a wash

818
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:33,960
Speaker 2: in raw talent, and it's it's gonna take. But I

819
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 2: think there's still very powerful forces pushing our candidates to

820
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:41,880
Speaker 2: stay firmly inside that liberal box, you know. And so

821
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:45,160
Speaker 2: and it is true that the sort of there's gonna

822
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:47,120
Speaker 2: be sort of a You're gonna have to marry two

823
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:50,720
Speaker 2: things together, I think, to get the right candidate here,

824
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:54,399
Speaker 2: and that's marrying the aggressive you know, taking the fight

825
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:58,399
Speaker 2: to Trump and the Republicans, that pugnacity that you see

826
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:01,000
Speaker 2: in someone like Gavin Newsom, No, that's why he's he's

827
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 2: sort of risen to the top of the conversation in

828
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:06,239
Speaker 2: a lot of places. But you're going to have to

829
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 2: marry that pugnacity with an issue mix that can appeal

830
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:13,760
Speaker 2: to a broad swath of Americans. And so right now,

831
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 2: you know, I think there's some more sort of tinkering

832
00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:19,759
Speaker 2: around the edges there. You know, you look at at

833
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 2: Josh Shapiro, who is who's sort of you know, defying

834
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:25,600
Speaker 2: the left wing of the party on some issues. But

835
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:28,600
Speaker 2: I think I think we're going to need somebody to

836
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 2: go further, you know, if we're going to talk about

837
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:33,399
Speaker 2: a super majority, and I you know, look, you could

838
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:36,120
Speaker 2: eke buy you know, in a polarized nation, every elections

839
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:37,880
Speaker 2: a coin flip, right, you could you could get to

840
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:39,800
Speaker 2: seventy you may even get to fifty in the Senate.

841
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:43,359
Speaker 2: But but that is a recipe for you know, whip

842
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:46,319
Speaker 2: last Biden didn't get to govern very well. Didn't.

843
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:49,319
Speaker 1: He had all three, but he barely had all He

844
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 1: barely had the trifecta.

845
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:54,680
Speaker 2: You lose it, you probably lose I think the trifecta.

846
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:57,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I managed it. From the White House perspective, I.

847
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:00,960
Speaker 2: Agree, And I think even if you're to have the trifecta,

848
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:04,040
Speaker 2: you probably lose it in the first midterm, you know,

849
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:06,840
Speaker 2: and then and then you're stuck. And so I think,

850
00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:10,160
Speaker 2: you know, what I see as a supermajority is having

851
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:12,920
Speaker 2: a durable governing majority that sustains itself at least through

852
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:15,960
Speaker 2: a few election cycles, that you can actually pass a

853
00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:19,240
Speaker 2: robust agenda. Most of what Biden has passed has already

854
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:23,080
Speaker 2: been undone with Republicans. This has already been undone by Republicans.

855
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:27,800
Speaker 2: You know it. At best, your accomplishments are extremely fragile.

856
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:31,239
Speaker 2: They don't last, they're quickly repealed, and then the other

857
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:32,560
Speaker 2: side comes in and does the same thing, and then

858
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:35,520
Speaker 2: we're stuck in this back and forth. So I think

859
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:38,200
Speaker 2: that the time is ripe right now for one side

860
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:41,440
Speaker 2: or the other to craft the supermajority appeal that can

861
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:44,840
Speaker 2: actually build a governing coalition that can sustain you in power,

862
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:47,400
Speaker 2: you know, beyond just one one two year period.

863
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:52,799
Speaker 1: There's a reason results matter more than promises, just like

864
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:56,000
Speaker 1: there's a reason Morgan and Morgan is America's largest injury

865
00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:58,800
Speaker 1: law firm. For the last thirty five years, they've recovered

866
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:02,080
Speaker 1: twenty five billion dollars for more than half a million clients.

867
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:06,240
Speaker 1: It includes cases where insurance companies offered next to nothing,

868
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:09,280
Speaker 1: just hoping to get away with paying as little as possible.

869
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:12,399
Speaker 1: Morgan and Morgan fought back ended up winning millions. In fact,

870
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 1: in Pennsylvania, one client was awarded twenty six million dollars,

871
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:19,160
Speaker 1: which was a staggering forty times the amount that the

872
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:22,440
Speaker 1: insurance company originally offered. That original offer six hundred and

873
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 1: fifty thousand dollars twenty six million, six hundred fifty thousand dollars.

874
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:28,280
Speaker 1: So with more than one thousand lawyers across the country,

875
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:31,040
Speaker 1: they know how to deliver for everyday people. If you're injured,

876
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:33,680
Speaker 1: you need a lawyer, You need somebody to get your back.

877
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:36,880
Speaker 1: Check out for the People dot com Slash podcast, or

878
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:42,480
Speaker 1: dial pound Law Pound five to nine law on your

879
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 1: cell phone. And remember all law firms are not the same,

880
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:47,320
Speaker 1: so check out Morgan and Morgan their fee is free

881
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:54,640
Speaker 1: unless they win. Do you worry about a insurgent third

882
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:55,719
Speaker 1: party or independent?

883
00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:57,919
Speaker 2: Do you worry that? You know? I look at it.

884
00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:00,920
Speaker 1: As somebody who was always dabbled in. My first professional

885
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:03,600
Speaker 1: year covering politics was the year of Ross Perro. So

886
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:06,239
Speaker 1: you know when you get introduced to politics that way

887
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:08,279
Speaker 1: and how crazy. It shook up the map, and it

888
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:11,840
Speaker 1: shook up ideologies and it really I've always thought that

889
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:16,719
Speaker 1: the Parro Parro's third party candidacy was extraordinarily successful because

890
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:19,440
Speaker 1: he made both parties change who they were. You know,

891
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:21,800
Speaker 1: he made the Democrats a bit more sensitive on fiscal issues,

892
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:24,080
Speaker 1: made the Republicans a bit more sensitive on trade issues.

893
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:27,600
Speaker 1: Hey that's that's to me. That's an accomplishment, right. That

894
00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:30,880
Speaker 1: was in theory originally why Ross Pero got it right.

895
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:31,480
Speaker 2: He was trying.

896
00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:33,640
Speaker 1: He thought, hey, these guys don't know what and any

897
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 1: in those two issues. He accomplished a lot.

898
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:39,400
Speaker 2: We're in a moment.

899
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:42,720
Speaker 1: There is a vacuum, right, you see, sometimes it's simply

900
00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:46,280
Speaker 1: a vacuum in a place like Nebraska, South Dakota or Idaho.

901
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:48,360
Speaker 1: And I single those guys out because I've interviewed all

902
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:48,600
Speaker 1: of them.

903
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:48,879
Speaker 2: There.

904
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:51,680
Speaker 1: There are a bunch of really strong candidates running as

905
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 1: economic populists who've chosen to run his independence instead of Democrats,

906
00:44:56,760 --> 00:44:59,239
Speaker 1: and they just simply all I had two of them

907
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 1: on together and they said, it's simply so they can

908
00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:04,200
Speaker 1: have a conversation with local voters, like they agree with

909
00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:06,279
Speaker 1: the agenda. But if the minute they find out they're

910
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:08,239
Speaker 1: a Democrat, then they don't want to, like they won't.

911
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:10,600
Speaker 1: It's like they close their ears, so they're trying to

912
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:13,320
Speaker 1: open their ears. Do you worry that there's a vacuum

913
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:16,800
Speaker 1: out there that can be filled by a non democratic entity?

914
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:19,239
Speaker 2: Oh? I I one hundred percent worry that there's there's

915
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:21,240
Speaker 2: a vacuum, and I think it's incumbent on the party

916
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:23,759
Speaker 2: to close it, you know, And if they don't do that,

917
00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:26,440
Speaker 2: then yeah, they lead themselves very vulnerable. It is a

918
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:28,800
Speaker 2: it's a regular, you know, not a not every election,

919
00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:30,960
Speaker 2: but you know, every once a generation or so, an

920
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:34,600
Speaker 2: independent candidate comes along and identifies the sort of the

921
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:37,360
Speaker 2: ways in which neither side is meeting the demands of

922
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:40,239
Speaker 2: the American people. Nineteen sixty eight, George Wallace, You know

923
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:43,239
Speaker 2: he did, and that cause you Nixon was sort of

924
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:45,520
Speaker 2: running on a light southern strategy in sixty eight, and

925
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:45,719
Speaker 2: then he.

926
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:48,120
Speaker 1: Said, probably wins by a bigger margin without Wallace.

927
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:51,160
Speaker 2: I think, right, but I don't think that's yeah, that's

928
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:53,480
Speaker 2: probably that's probably right. But then he sort of, you know,

929
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:55,040
Speaker 2: just I mean this, I don't see this is a

930
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:57,200
Speaker 2: good thing being a liberal. But then he know, decided

931
00:45:57,239 --> 00:45:58,720
Speaker 2: to close off that that.

932
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:00,160
Speaker 1: He didn't let that, but he wasn't going to let

933
00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:02,160
Speaker 1: that happen to him a second time exactly.

934
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:04,800
Speaker 2: And then Reagan's will refined that approached and you know, so,

935
00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:07,000
Speaker 2: I mean, I think I think that, you know, it's

936
00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:09,840
Speaker 2: it's sort of a market feature of if neither side

937
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 2: is meeting the demand, then you know someone's going to

938
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:16,200
Speaker 2: step in. They won't win, I don't think, but they

939
00:46:16,239 --> 00:46:19,680
Speaker 2: can certainly, you know, cause Democrats to lose. And so

940
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:22,200
Speaker 2: it really is incumbent on Democrats to take it upon

941
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:25,640
Speaker 2: themselves to craft a broader appeal to sort of preempt

942
00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:29,040
Speaker 2: the possibility of getting, you know, having an end run

943
00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:32,399
Speaker 2: around them by an independent candidate. Yeah, let's talk about

944
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:32,760
Speaker 2: the Senate.

945
00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:38,719
Speaker 1: You wrote a book about it, you know, and and

946
00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:41,480
Speaker 1: and the filibuster, you know, one of the things that filibuster.

947
00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:45,040
Speaker 1: I always want to take a little time to educate people.

948
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:49,200
Speaker 1: It is not in the constitution. The philibuster is a choice, right,

949
00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:57,399
Speaker 1: it's Senate rules, right, that's right. There is the mythology

950
00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:00,399
Speaker 1: that you know I grew up with, certainly was mister Smith, right,

951
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:05,120
Speaker 1: the famous Jimmy Stewart movie of the fifties, and it

952
00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:09,080
Speaker 1: sort of celebrated the idea that one senator can sort

953
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:13,359
Speaker 1: of stand up. So give me the ideal. What's your

954
00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:17,319
Speaker 1: ideal of I assume you still embrace the ideal that

955
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:20,040
Speaker 1: a a senator should feel as if that they can

956
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:23,560
Speaker 1: do that if they so choose to. How should that

957
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:25,920
Speaker 1: work and how should we be using it as a

958
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:27,160
Speaker 1: governing tool in your mind?

959
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:29,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly that. That's the thing is that people think

960
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:31,759
Speaker 2: when they think of the filibuster, if they think about

961
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:34,120
Speaker 2: it at all, they think of they think of Jimmy Stewart, right,

962
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:36,399
Speaker 2: But that's not how it works.

963
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:39,640
Speaker 1: I'm hopeful actually that most of the people that are

964
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:43,080
Speaker 1: listening to this podcast are younger than I am and

965
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:44,800
Speaker 1: probably are like, who the hell is Jimmy Stewart.

966
00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:47,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true, but I think that. But still the

967
00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:50,560
Speaker 2: idea of you of somebody standing up and talking is

968
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:53,719
Speaker 2: what people think of, right, and that's just not how

969
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:56,360
Speaker 2: it works anymore. You know. What's happened is it's become

970
00:47:56,840 --> 00:48:00,320
Speaker 2: a sort of a quiet, you know, passive filibuster, where

971
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:03,320
Speaker 2: any soccer veto it's pocket veto. I mean you literally

972
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:06,160
Speaker 2: have your staff call the cloak room and say I object.

973
00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:08,719
Speaker 2: That's it, and nobody has to do to show up

974
00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 2: to the floor. They don't have to say a word.

975
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:14,480
Speaker 2: And then that automatically raises the threshold for procedural reasons

976
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:16,960
Speaker 2: that will borri your readers to tears to sixty votes.

977
00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:19,080
Speaker 2: And I think what's important understand is that you know,

978
00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:22,240
Speaker 2: according for the first two hundred years of its existence,

979
00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:24,800
Speaker 2: from the time it was conceived of the Framers until

980
00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:27,800
Speaker 2: about mid century in the twentieth century, the Senate was

981
00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:30,640
Speaker 2: a majority rule institution. It was it was intended to

982
00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:33,320
Speaker 2: be that way, and the Framers it wasn't an accident.

983
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:36,279
Speaker 2: They thought very hard about whether there should be a

984
00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:40,000
Speaker 2: super majority requirement in Senate rules and they decided against it.

985
00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:42,319
Speaker 2: And the reason they decided against it was because they

986
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:45,520
Speaker 2: had just had experience with the Articles of Confederation, where

987
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:48,239
Speaker 2: there was a super majority threshold in the legislature, and

988
00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:50,200
Speaker 2: they put it there, you know, on the theory that

989
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:53,920
Speaker 2: it would promote compromising consensus, when what happened in reality

990
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:57,040
Speaker 2: was that it empowered a minority to be obstructionists and

991
00:48:57,080 --> 00:48:58,759
Speaker 2: to grind things to the halt when they didn't get

992
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:02,080
Speaker 2: their way. And so the framers saw that happen and said, okay,

993
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:04,240
Speaker 2: well we're not doing that, you know, And so they

994
00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:06,040
Speaker 2: designed the Senate to be different from the House in

995
00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:09,600
Speaker 2: lots of other ways, by giving every state equal representation,

996
00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:12,359
Speaker 2: by having senators serve for six year terms so they

997
00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:14,440
Speaker 2: can be a little bit less responsive to the whims

998
00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:17,520
Speaker 2: of the moment, staggering those elections, like we talked about,

999
00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:20,080
Speaker 2: you know, basically sort of building in things that made

1000
00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:23,920
Speaker 2: it a more deliberate institution. But they were and they

1001
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:25,840
Speaker 2: wrote about it in the Federals papers. They debated the

1002
00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:28,920
Speaker 2: consertorial convention. They said, we are not putting in a

1003
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:32,600
Speaker 2: majority a super majority threshold because that would allow and

1004
00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:35,920
Speaker 2: they said explicitly, because that would allow a minority to obstruct,

1005
00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:38,200
Speaker 2: you know, when they didn't get their way. And so

1006
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:41,320
Speaker 2: that's the difference in the filibuster, is that there should

1007
00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:44,440
Speaker 2: be unlimited debate. You should have the opportunity to stand

1008
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:47,120
Speaker 2: and say your piece, to join with other colleagues to

1009
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:50,360
Speaker 2: keep a filibuster going indefinitely if you want to. But

1010
00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:52,000
Speaker 2: you should have to put in the work. You know,

1011
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:54,080
Speaker 2: you should not be able to do it passively. Why

1012
00:49:54,160 --> 00:49:58,440
Speaker 2: is it hard sell to sell that bipartisipately?

1013
00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:01,840
Speaker 1: That to me seems the upper use of the filibuster.

1014
00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:05,000
Speaker 2: I agree, you know, it's it's it's it's just the

1015
00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:08,080
Speaker 2: sort of the proverb of the frog being boiled in water,

1016
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:11,440
Speaker 2: where you know, the Senate never decided to have it

1017
00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:14,319
Speaker 2: be the way it is. It was a passive accumulation

1018
00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:18,120
Speaker 2: of one norm being laid on another in layered form

1019
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:21,840
Speaker 2: over several decades where basically, when you're in the minority

1020
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:23,600
Speaker 2: you find this thing to be useful.

1021
00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:26,719
Speaker 1: But came up what the filibuster happened? What sometime after

1022
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:30,200
Speaker 1: direct election of senators? Yeah, well so nineteen seventeen. They

1023
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:35,120
Speaker 1: when when seventy of the amendment, So when direct election happened,

1024
00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:37,239
Speaker 1: it was around the same time during the progressive era.

1025
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:39,600
Speaker 2: You know, there was this idea. But what's really interesting

1026
00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:43,800
Speaker 2: about it is that the rule that today gets used

1027
00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:47,319
Speaker 2: to cause the super majority threshold was originally put in

1028
00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:52,040
Speaker 2: place to end filibusters. It's I don't want.

1029
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:55,400
Speaker 1: To get yeah, it's like it's like you're describing one

1030
00:50:55,400 --> 00:50:57,560
Speaker 1: of my favorite things. You know, a reform in one

1031
00:50:57,640 --> 00:51:00,440
Speaker 1: era turns into it a problem and other you know,

1032
00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:04,359
Speaker 1: the seniority system was actually instituted in the House at

1033
00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:07,880
Speaker 1: the turn of the last century because there were so

1034
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:10,719
Speaker 1: many cronies that a speaker would put into place, and

1035
00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:13,080
Speaker 1: they said, well, we can't have that. So the seniority

1036
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:18,279
Speaker 1: system was actually a reform, right, that's right to improve representation.

1037
00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:20,279
Speaker 2: So the super majority rule was, you know, put in

1038
00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:22,560
Speaker 2: place because if you had a talking filibuster that was

1039
00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:26,279
Speaker 2: going on for way too long, right you you said, okay, fine,

1040
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:29,120
Speaker 2: you know what, We'll give you a tool to bring

1041
00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:32,120
Speaker 2: that to an end. And that's if you know sixty

1042
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:33,839
Speaker 2: at the time it was three fits. It was three

1043
00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:36,480
Speaker 2: thirds three fourths or something, or at the time it

1044
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:38,640
Speaker 2: was two thirds. Now it's three fitths. But they said, look,

1045
00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:41,640
Speaker 2: if three fitts of the Senate can decide that, you know,

1046
00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:45,399
Speaker 2: mister Smith has talked too long, you know, presumably that's

1047
00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:47,800
Speaker 2: bringing people together from both sides of the whatever issues

1048
00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:50,439
Speaker 2: being debated, you can sort of say, okay, that's enough guy.

1049
00:51:50,600 --> 00:51:52,480
Speaker 2: Even then you still have like thirty hours. So you know,

1050
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:55,600
Speaker 2: in true Senate fashion, it wasn't moving that precipitously, but

1051
00:51:55,719 --> 00:51:57,080
Speaker 2: that was supposed to be able to say, okay, that's

1052
00:51:57,120 --> 00:51:59,719
Speaker 2: gone on long enough, let's let's let's end it. Let's

1053
00:51:59,719 --> 00:52:02,400
Speaker 2: move to a vote. Now what happens is because of

1054
00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:04,960
Speaker 2: the ease of implementing the filibuster, because you don't have

1055
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:06,600
Speaker 2: to go to the floor and you can just have

1056
00:52:06,640 --> 00:52:09,200
Speaker 2: your staff call the cloakroom. That's all it takes to

1057
00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:12,360
Speaker 2: do a filibuster. So there's no there's no you're not

1058
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:15,800
Speaker 2: putting any onus on the person blocking, But that simple

1059
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:19,200
Speaker 2: act of calling the cloakroom triggers that supermajority requirement. Now,

1060
00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:21,840
Speaker 2: so every time the Senate votes on the super majority,

1061
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:24,520
Speaker 2: they're technically still ending a filibuster, even though there's nobody

1062
00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:27,000
Speaker 2: on the floor filibustering. So it's completely a mutation of

1063
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:29,480
Speaker 2: what the original rule was decided to do, and it's

1064
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:32,560
Speaker 2: just accumulated in this sort of like accretion of layers

1065
00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:36,480
Speaker 2: of norms and made the Senate completely dysfunctional, just like

1066
00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:39,960
Speaker 2: the Framers predicted it would be if a supermajority requirement

1067
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:40,560
Speaker 2: was put in place.

1068
00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:44,640
Speaker 1: So let's talk about the different like hacks that were

1069
00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:49,799
Speaker 1: essentially created to avoid the filibuster reconciliation. I got a

1070
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:52,879
Speaker 1: fun viewer question back to my last episode about it,

1071
00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:56,880
Speaker 1: and I said, well, it was correct me if I'm wrong.

1072
00:52:56,960 --> 00:52:59,760
Speaker 1: It was a creation essentially of Robert byrd right, that's.

1073
00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:03,160
Speaker 2: Right, you know it was. It was sort of downstream

1074
00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:06,160
Speaker 2: of the sort of imperial presidency under Nixon, where you know,

1075
00:53:06,239 --> 00:53:09,600
Speaker 2: Nixon seized a bunch of powers to the executive branch,

1076
00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:13,480
Speaker 2: and so in the post Watergate reaction against that, they

1077
00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:16,000
Speaker 2: wanted to shift more power back to the legislative branch,

1078
00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:18,680
Speaker 2: and so they created this thing called budget reconciliation, where

1079
00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:20,880
Speaker 2: you know, under the power of the purse, one of

1080
00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:23,240
Speaker 2: the most important functions of Congress is to pass a budget.

1081
00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:27,960
Speaker 2: And you know, if Congress gets you know, stuck on budget,

1082
00:53:28,239 --> 00:53:31,280
Speaker 2: that's an abdication of their powers. It shifts more powers

1083
00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:34,080
Speaker 2: to the executive because Congress hasn't told the executive how

1084
00:53:34,120 --> 00:53:36,200
Speaker 2: to spend the money. So they wanted to make sure

1085
00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:40,560
Speaker 2: that budgets could not get stuck or blocked by a minority.

1086
00:53:40,560 --> 00:53:43,680
Speaker 2: So they created a separate pathway for anything related to

1087
00:53:43,680 --> 00:53:46,239
Speaker 2: the budget, and they put in place strict rules where

1088
00:53:46,239 --> 00:53:48,840
Speaker 2: it said, you know, it has to meet these standards.

1089
00:53:48,840 --> 00:53:51,080
Speaker 2: But if it meets these standards and applies to the budget,

1090
00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:54,600
Speaker 2: it has its own pathway where there's no supermajority requirement.

1091
00:53:55,440 --> 00:53:57,839
Speaker 2: It's a straight fifty vote threshold all the way through,

1092
00:53:57,880 --> 00:54:00,120
Speaker 2: but there is sort of almost a talking all the

1093
00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:02,360
Speaker 2: us are built in of this thing called voterama, where

1094
00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:05,680
Speaker 2: you know, anybody can bring an amendment, and so before

1095
00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:08,319
Speaker 2: passage you'll have these night you know, sessions that go

1096
00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:11,120
Speaker 2: all night where everybody's so you know, kind of they

1097
00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:14,200
Speaker 2: they sort of tried to recreate the original Senate, but

1098
00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:18,919
Speaker 2: only for issues related to the budget. Those those criteria

1099
00:54:19,160 --> 00:54:22,200
Speaker 2: that determine what can pass along that pathway that's been

1100
00:54:22,239 --> 00:54:25,960
Speaker 2: expanded steadily over the since the seventies when this was

1101
00:54:26,080 --> 00:54:28,799
Speaker 2: enacted to sort of, you know, expand the definition of

1102
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:31,480
Speaker 2: what's allowed to pass through it. But even so, you know,

1103
00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:35,440
Speaker 2: anything that's not economic and nature definitely can't pass through

1104
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:37,200
Speaker 2: that pathway, and even a lot of things that are

1105
00:54:37,239 --> 00:54:39,560
Speaker 2: economic and nature, you know, still get kicked out.

1106
00:54:40,080 --> 00:54:45,200
Speaker 1: I think the first Bush tax cuts were not reconciliation.

1107
00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:47,160
Speaker 1: I think he did that with sixty because I remember

1108
00:54:47,239 --> 00:54:49,440
Speaker 1: him finding five Democratic senators.

1109
00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:51,960
Speaker 2: I know, no, I think that. I think it was

1110
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:54,359
Speaker 2: reconciliation he did, and both those things are true. He did.

1111
00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:57,719
Speaker 2: Max Bochus supported those, some Democrats supported him, But I

1112
00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:00,399
Speaker 2: still think it was on the reconsilation. But with which,

1113
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:02,440
Speaker 2: by the way, is the way it used to happen,

1114
00:55:02,440 --> 00:55:04,919
Speaker 2: which was that just because something passed, you know, along

1115
00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:07,840
Speaker 2: majority rule pathway, didn't make it party line, you know.

1116
00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:11,319
Speaker 2: I mean, look, medicare you know? So the things we

1117
00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:14,680
Speaker 2: think of as the greatest by partisan accomplishments generally happened

1118
00:55:14,719 --> 00:55:16,640
Speaker 2: during the period when the Senate was majority rule. And

1119
00:55:16,680 --> 00:55:19,479
Speaker 2: what would happen is people would fight it tooth and nail.

1120
00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:21,360
Speaker 2: But then as soon as it was clear that the

1121
00:55:21,360 --> 00:55:23,759
Speaker 2: majority had the votes, a bunch of people who were

1122
00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:25,560
Speaker 2: holding out for something would would then come on over

1123
00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:27,080
Speaker 2: and say, Okay, I'm going to join on board anyways,

1124
00:55:27,239 --> 00:55:28,880
Speaker 2: and on the right I want to be on the

1125
00:55:28,920 --> 00:55:31,239
Speaker 2: right side of that vote. Sure that vote.

1126
00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:34,080
Speaker 1: Well, let's stuck the judiciary because this is where I

1127
00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:37,360
Speaker 1: I you know, there have been separate rules created, and

1128
00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:42,239
Speaker 1: I kind of think everybody's gone the wrong direction, right,

1129
00:55:42,360 --> 00:55:45,239
Speaker 1: Meaning if I read Federalist seventy eight, which is the

1130
00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:49,240
Speaker 1: Alexander Hamilton Federalist paper on the judiciary, it is pretty

1131
00:55:49,239 --> 00:55:53,000
Speaker 1: clear that the description of the judiciary that the founders

1132
00:55:53,040 --> 00:55:56,800
Speaker 1: intended was for what I call referees, so the least

1133
00:55:56,800 --> 00:56:00,560
Speaker 1: partisan individuals you could get in the least part of way, right,

1134
00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:02,400
Speaker 1: that was the reason for the lifetime appointment.

1135
00:56:02,600 --> 00:56:05,080
Speaker 2: That was so to me.

1136
00:56:05,680 --> 00:56:08,319
Speaker 1: He didn't say there should be And maybe you could

1137
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:10,799
Speaker 1: make the argument, you know, he should have said, you know,

1138
00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:14,680
Speaker 1: all federal judges should be super majorities. But that's where

1139
00:56:14,680 --> 00:56:16,680
Speaker 1: my head is at, like I don't trust the two

1140
00:56:16,719 --> 00:56:19,680
Speaker 1: parties anymore. And to the point of, with the way

1141
00:56:19,680 --> 00:56:24,279
Speaker 1: the judiciary works, would we be better off if we

1142
00:56:24,360 --> 00:56:28,200
Speaker 1: didn't instead of lowering the threshold from sixty down to fifty,

1143
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:31,239
Speaker 1: of raising the threshold from sixty to seventy five. And

1144
00:56:31,320 --> 00:56:35,279
Speaker 1: the reason I have come down on this idea is

1145
00:56:35,680 --> 00:56:38,640
Speaker 1: looking at I got to know somebody who worked in

1146
00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:43,120
Speaker 1: the Bush White House Counsel's office in the first Bush

1147
00:56:43,120 --> 00:56:47,160
Speaker 1: forty three and they were the last Republican presidency under

1148
00:56:47,160 --> 00:56:50,120
Speaker 1: the sixty vote threshold right until Trump came in, and

1149
00:56:50,120 --> 00:56:52,640
Speaker 1: then it got lowered, he got to lower it all

1150
00:56:52,719 --> 00:56:56,360
Speaker 1: got lowered, and he said they'd have nominated completely different

1151
00:56:56,400 --> 00:57:00,480
Speaker 1: people for federal judge ships if the threat should was

1152
00:57:00,480 --> 00:57:04,760
Speaker 1: fifty and not sixty, much more ideological, much less.

1153
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:05,000
Speaker 2: You know.

1154
00:57:07,600 --> 00:57:11,120
Speaker 1: That to me was that is why I'm like, yeah,

1155
00:57:11,200 --> 00:57:13,439
Speaker 1: this is why we shouldn't have lowered the threshold, because

1156
00:57:13,480 --> 00:57:16,880
Speaker 1: ultimately I want the least partisan people as my judge.

1157
00:57:17,280 --> 00:57:21,160
Speaker 1: I don't want partisan people as my judge. I know

1158
00:57:21,200 --> 00:57:23,440
Speaker 1: we're a long way away from us from a from

1159
00:57:23,480 --> 00:57:26,600
Speaker 1: a situation going back to that, but why is that

1160
00:57:26,640 --> 00:57:30,320
Speaker 1: so difficult? How did we allow the judicial? Why did

1161
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:33,200
Speaker 1: we decide to politicize the judicial much? Yeah, I mean

1162
00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:36,040
Speaker 1: I think one hundred percent. See you know where you're

1163
00:57:36,040 --> 00:57:38,640
Speaker 1: coming from on that. I think that you know, it

1164
00:57:38,760 --> 00:57:41,080
Speaker 1: is a bit cyclical, right, I mean, like, you know,

1165
00:57:41,840 --> 00:57:43,000
Speaker 1: a lot of judges.

1166
00:57:42,640 --> 00:57:44,760
Speaker 2: Did used to be pretty partisan. I mean, you know,

1167
00:57:45,160 --> 00:57:46,680
Speaker 2: the nineteen said, look, I'm not going to sit here.

1168
00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:50,040
Speaker 2: The nineteenth century judiciary in general was corrupt. Yeah okay, yeah,

1169
00:57:50,120 --> 00:57:51,280
Speaker 2: and there was a ton.

1170
00:57:51,160 --> 00:57:53,520
Speaker 1: Of a lot of corruption there. I'm not gonna I

1171
00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:55,360
Speaker 1: take your point right.

1172
00:57:55,280 --> 00:57:57,600
Speaker 2: Right, So I think I think those things work in cycles.

1173
00:57:57,760 --> 00:57:59,760
Speaker 2: I think where I come down on this stuff is

1174
00:57:59,800 --> 00:58:06,479
Speaker 2: that it's really hard to you know, enforce good things

1175
00:58:06,520 --> 00:58:11,680
Speaker 2: like you know, good judgment, moderation by rule. It's just

1176
00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:14,400
Speaker 2: very hard. And that's when you run into this problem

1177
00:58:14,440 --> 00:58:16,480
Speaker 2: we were just talking about, of the rule, you know,

1178
00:58:16,560 --> 00:58:20,480
Speaker 2: having unintended consequences. It's just if the nature of the

1179
00:58:20,520 --> 00:58:23,880
Speaker 2: times is such that, you know, this is what people

1180
00:58:23,880 --> 00:58:27,320
Speaker 2: are demanding, it's it's going to find a way. And

1181
00:58:27,600 --> 00:58:30,960
Speaker 2: I think that, you know, you know, I'm not not

1182
00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:36,120
Speaker 2: a conservative by nature, so I feel, you know, slightlycourable

1183
00:58:36,160 --> 00:58:38,360
Speaker 2: saying this. But when you go back to the Framer's design,

1184
00:58:39,120 --> 00:58:42,000
Speaker 2: you know, I think I am an originalist when it

1185
00:58:42,080 --> 00:58:45,800
Speaker 2: comes to the system design, you know, and and this

1186
00:58:45,960 --> 00:58:48,880
Speaker 2: this system was designed to just not have a super

1187
00:58:48,880 --> 00:58:53,520
Speaker 2: majority threshold anywhere in the path from beginning to end.

1188
00:58:53,880 --> 00:58:56,439
Speaker 1: And the only thing that required is super majority. It

1189
00:58:56,520 --> 00:58:57,760
Speaker 1: was was.

1190
00:58:57,320 --> 00:59:00,000
Speaker 2: Was cast social amendments, yeah, impeachment, you know, but they

1191
00:59:00,040 --> 00:59:02,840
Speaker 2: specified those in the constitution, which just goes to show

1192
00:59:02,880 --> 00:59:04,240
Speaker 2: how they consider this to be.

1193
00:59:04,560 --> 00:59:06,800
Speaker 1: It's a very fair point. The fact that he didn't

1194
00:59:06,880 --> 00:59:09,600
Speaker 1: argue for it, you know, he certainly argued. He argued

1195
00:59:09,640 --> 00:59:14,320
Speaker 1: hard against judicial elections, which to me tells you that

1196
00:59:14,360 --> 00:59:16,640
Speaker 1: what I mean, you want to talk about corrupt those

1197
00:59:16,640 --> 00:59:20,040
Speaker 1: states Supreme Court partisan races to me are just terear.

1198
00:59:20,200 --> 00:59:24,160
Speaker 1: I mean, I think they just the mere existence of

1199
00:59:24,200 --> 00:59:26,080
Speaker 1: them undermined the rule of law.

1200
00:59:26,120 --> 00:59:27,720
Speaker 2: Well, and you're seeing more and more money start to

1201
00:59:27,720 --> 00:59:29,240
Speaker 2: flow to them too, you know. I mean, they're going

1202
00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:31,960
Speaker 2: to become just as political as any election. I think

1203
00:59:31,960 --> 00:59:34,320
Speaker 2: that's right. So I think it's it's just a tough

1204
00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:37,640
Speaker 2: thing to do by rule, and so you know, there

1205
00:59:37,640 --> 00:59:40,080
Speaker 2: are many bad features of the times we live in.

1206
00:59:40,760 --> 00:59:42,440
Speaker 2: I think, you know, sort of a return to the

1207
00:59:42,480 --> 00:59:45,040
Speaker 2: basic features of our system that allow things to move

1208
00:59:45,040 --> 00:59:47,240
Speaker 2: and allow our system to I think if you went

1209
00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:50,320
Speaker 2: to seventy five, which you'd probably have, is just massive

1210
00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:53,439
Speaker 2: judicial backlogs and seats not getting filled. Well, this gets

1211
00:59:53,440 --> 00:59:54,520
Speaker 2: to the whole chicken and egg thing.

1212
00:59:54,560 --> 00:59:57,040
Speaker 1: Like we began earlier talking about the lack of ideological

1213
00:59:57,080 --> 00:59:59,959
Speaker 1: diversity in the two parties. When we had ideological diverse

1214
01:00:00,040 --> 01:00:03,360
Speaker 1: city in the two parties, we regularly had these sixty

1215
01:00:03,360 --> 01:00:07,920
Speaker 1: and seventy vote confirmations because there was this ideological diversity

1216
01:00:07,960 --> 01:00:12,440
Speaker 1: as we polarized ourselves right as you know, the embedding

1217
01:00:12,480 --> 01:00:14,680
Speaker 1: of red and blue right, which you know, we could

1218
01:00:14,680 --> 01:00:16,600
Speaker 1: make an argument it began in two thousand. I sort

1219
01:00:16,600 --> 01:00:19,520
Speaker 1: of think now in hindsight, it began with the fallow

1220
01:00:19,720 --> 01:00:23,680
Speaker 1: of the Berlin Wall, that that that's when both parties bases,

1221
01:00:24,080 --> 01:00:28,320
Speaker 1: you know, got reanimated again. We're like, okay, cold War's over.

1222
01:00:28,440 --> 01:00:30,800
Speaker 1: We can't be told to sit sit quietly in the

1223
01:00:30,840 --> 01:00:36,720
Speaker 1: corner anymore. We're coming right. But you know, that's the

1224
01:00:36,920 --> 01:00:40,160
Speaker 1: I guess it is the better solution than open primaries,

1225
01:00:40,160 --> 01:00:42,840
Speaker 1: getting rid of all partisan primaries and that then you

1226
01:00:43,680 --> 01:00:45,760
Speaker 1: just get a different type of nominee.

1227
01:00:46,040 --> 01:00:48,120
Speaker 2: I think that's I think that's I would be in

1228
01:00:48,160 --> 01:00:52,440
Speaker 2: favor of opening up primaries for sure, you know, and

1229
01:00:52,720 --> 01:00:55,000
Speaker 2: I think that, you know, you look at someone like

1230
01:00:55,480 --> 01:00:58,440
Speaker 2: would Bernie Sanders have won the twenty sixteen presentsional nomination

1231
01:00:58,760 --> 01:01:00,640
Speaker 2: if their primary had been open? You know, it's or

1232
01:01:00,960 --> 01:01:03,000
Speaker 2: more primaries and along the way have been opened. Maybe

1233
01:01:03,160 --> 01:01:05,280
Speaker 2: they I think they argued that at the time. You know,

1234
01:01:05,360 --> 01:01:07,920
Speaker 2: he's interesting because you could say he's ideological, but also

1235
01:01:08,000 --> 01:01:11,600
Speaker 2: he was sort of an underappreciated aspect of his twenty

1236
01:01:11,600 --> 01:01:14,240
Speaker 2: sixteen campaign was that he was more moderate on cultural

1237
01:01:14,280 --> 01:01:17,320
Speaker 2: issues than Hillary, and he was actually sort of presenting

1238
01:01:17,600 --> 01:01:20,600
Speaker 2: much more of that classic poem. Remember how Hillary about.

1239
01:01:20,680 --> 01:01:23,880
Speaker 1: Attacked them, kept attacking him other suns. Yeah, him from

1240
01:01:23,920 --> 01:01:25,320
Speaker 1: the left, not the right, that's right.

1241
01:01:25,360 --> 01:01:27,680
Speaker 2: And he you know, he had at some point said

1242
01:01:27,880 --> 01:01:30,520
Speaker 2: the interest groups are the establishment, you know, plan pared

1243
01:01:30,520 --> 01:01:32,720
Speaker 2: to all these groups. So I think that's I think

1244
01:01:32,760 --> 01:01:35,680
Speaker 2: you've opened the doorway for a more interesting.

1245
01:01:35,320 --> 01:01:40,600
Speaker 1: Mix of ideologies. If you did that, well that let's

1246
01:01:40,640 --> 01:01:46,560
Speaker 1: land the plane this way. What do you plan? You know,

1247
01:01:47,440 --> 01:01:50,280
Speaker 1: do you see searchlight? On one hand, you want to

1248
01:01:50,360 --> 01:01:52,880
Speaker 1: you're going to be an incubator of policy ideas and

1249
01:01:53,640 --> 01:01:56,160
Speaker 1: also an incubator of campaign tactics.

1250
01:01:56,800 --> 01:01:59,960
Speaker 2: Well, I think if we had a sort of campaign advice,

1251
01:02:00,040 --> 01:02:02,200
Speaker 2: it would be basically to be heterodox, you know, I

1252
01:02:02,200 --> 01:02:03,800
Speaker 2: mean we would say which, And I think that's more

1253
01:02:03,840 --> 01:02:06,960
Speaker 2: powerful than any camping tactic. We are, we are a

1254
01:02:06,960 --> 01:02:10,120
Speaker 2: political culture that's a wash in. You know, this or

1255
01:02:10,120 --> 01:02:12,200
Speaker 2: that media strategy, this or that platform, and all those

1256
01:02:12,200 --> 01:02:15,280
Speaker 2: things are important, but fundamentally, the most powerful thing you

1257
01:02:15,280 --> 01:02:18,160
Speaker 2: can do is offer a different mix of issues to

1258
01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:21,320
Speaker 2: the American people, and so much else flows downstream from that.

1259
01:02:21,480 --> 01:02:25,040
Speaker 2: So our advice to candidates would be decide to be heterodox.

1260
01:02:25,120 --> 01:02:26,960
Speaker 2: You know, if you look through your issue positions and

1261
01:02:27,040 --> 01:02:30,520
Speaker 2: every single position on that page on your website. You

1262
01:02:30,520 --> 01:02:33,680
Speaker 2: know it is a rigidly ideological left wing position. Then

1263
01:02:33,920 --> 01:02:36,080
Speaker 2: you know, if you're running in a competitive race, then

1264
01:02:36,120 --> 01:02:39,360
Speaker 2: you're probably doing it wrong. So and listen, look in,

1265
01:02:39,480 --> 01:02:42,160
Speaker 2: look in, Look to your beliefs, Look to the people

1266
01:02:42,600 --> 01:02:45,439
Speaker 2: that you're seeking to represent that works those issues.

1267
01:02:45,440 --> 01:02:47,720
Speaker 1: You are right, Like, yeah, I look at grand I

1268
01:02:47,760 --> 01:02:49,480
Speaker 1: look at the Grand Platiner situation.

1269
01:02:49,800 --> 01:02:52,520
Speaker 2: And you know how I look. I got my.

1270
01:02:52,480 --> 01:02:55,800
Speaker 1: Skepticism on the tattoos story. I will admit that, Like

1271
01:02:57,440 --> 01:02:59,280
Speaker 1: you know, I think you put a permanent marking on

1272
01:02:59,320 --> 01:03:01,440
Speaker 1: your body. You're going to research what that is. But

1273
01:03:02,440 --> 01:03:05,200
Speaker 1: so look, that's me as a voter or as a

1274
01:03:05,200 --> 01:03:06,320
Speaker 1: as a consumer of this.

1275
01:03:07,640 --> 01:03:10,040
Speaker 2: But what do you make of his staying power? What

1276
01:03:10,080 --> 01:03:10,960
Speaker 2: does that tell.

1277
01:03:10,800 --> 01:03:14,880
Speaker 1: You about what you're what you're advising people to be.

1278
01:03:15,360 --> 01:03:17,480
Speaker 2: I think I think it's it's it says a lot.

1279
01:03:17,560 --> 01:03:19,400
Speaker 2: And I think that you know, he's he's a person

1280
01:03:19,480 --> 01:03:23,040
Speaker 2: who served in the military, you know, and enlisted in

1281
01:03:23,080 --> 01:03:25,440
Speaker 2: a war that he says he didn't agree with. But

1282
01:03:25,480 --> 01:03:28,760
Speaker 2: I think that's a powerful story. He loves this guy

1283
01:03:28,800 --> 01:03:30,560
Speaker 2: loves guns, you know, not just in the sort of

1284
01:03:30,600 --> 01:03:32,520
Speaker 2: like carried a gun once way. But I mean, you

1285
01:03:32,520 --> 01:03:35,600
Speaker 2: know that's that's a heterodoxy that that fits the state

1286
01:03:35,640 --> 01:03:40,640
Speaker 2: of Maine. People are looking for authenticity, They're looking for that,

1287
01:03:40,640 --> 01:03:45,080
Speaker 2: that desire to fight that that authenticity being imperfect, having

1288
01:03:45,080 --> 01:03:48,160
Speaker 2: made mistakes, all that stuff. I think it's it's very powerful.

1289
01:03:48,200 --> 01:03:50,960
Speaker 2: And so far the way voters in Maine are reacting

1290
01:03:50,960 --> 01:03:52,840
Speaker 2: to those stories is to dismiss them or even to

1291
01:03:52,840 --> 01:03:55,000
Speaker 2: say that's making me back him even stronger. So I

1292
01:03:55,040 --> 01:03:58,200
Speaker 2: think that's a very powerful phenomenon that's going on right now.

1293
01:03:58,240 --> 01:04:00,640
Speaker 2: And his level of heterodoxy could win state like Maine,

1294
01:04:00,640 --> 01:04:03,400
Speaker 2: which is, you know, pretty blue. If you're going to

1295
01:04:03,480 --> 01:04:06,280
Speaker 2: be running in a state like Iowa, Ohio or Nebraska,

1296
01:04:06,360 --> 01:04:08,240
Speaker 2: you know you've got to be even more heterodox. And

1297
01:04:08,240 --> 01:04:10,960
Speaker 2: that's that's the that's the advice I would give to candidates.

1298
01:04:11,760 --> 01:04:14,960
Speaker 1: And is this about finding how much of this is

1299
01:04:15,000 --> 01:04:17,280
Speaker 1: on the party seeking out those candidates and how much

1300
01:04:17,320 --> 01:04:20,600
Speaker 1: is it just simply more candidates need to not seek

1301
01:04:20,600 --> 01:04:23,240
Speaker 1: out the groups looking for I mean, you see this

1302
01:04:23,360 --> 01:04:26,440
Speaker 1: a lot where and I'm sorry I think that I

1303
01:04:26,520 --> 01:04:29,880
Speaker 1: watch the committees do this right, Well, if you don't

1304
01:04:29,920 --> 01:04:31,480
Speaker 1: do this then we're not going to be able to

1305
01:04:31,560 --> 01:04:35,240
Speaker 1: bunge your general election. They sort of hold you hostage

1306
01:04:35,320 --> 01:04:36,360
Speaker 1: uncertain things, oh.

1307
01:04:36,320 --> 01:04:38,200
Speaker 2: One hundred percent. I mean people, you know, the question

1308
01:04:38,200 --> 01:04:39,520
Speaker 2: we gas a lot is like, oh, these are just

1309
01:04:39,560 --> 01:04:42,520
Speaker 2: little nonprofits, you know, doing the best they can. And

1310
01:04:42,560 --> 01:04:45,600
Speaker 2: that's that's in the post Citizens United world. These groups

1311
01:04:45,600 --> 01:04:48,600
Speaker 2: wield war chests of millions and millions of dollars, and

1312
01:04:48,960 --> 01:04:51,840
Speaker 2: in the primary, if you don't take their preferred positions,

1313
01:04:51,880 --> 01:04:54,080
Speaker 2: they spend those millions of dollars against you and in

1314
01:04:54,080 --> 01:04:56,240
Speaker 2: favor of your opponent. So it's still a lot of power.

1315
01:04:57,200 --> 01:05:00,440
Speaker 2: But I think, you know, it would be smart for

1316
01:05:00,480 --> 01:05:01,800
Speaker 2: the groups to get a little bit smarter in what

1317
01:05:01,840 --> 01:05:04,640
Speaker 2: they're asking people to do and make their asks more about,

1318
01:05:04,640 --> 01:05:07,160
Speaker 2: you know, can you beat the Republican then than you know,

1319
01:05:07,600 --> 01:05:10,520
Speaker 2: going through a purity test. But I think candidates should,

1320
01:05:10,600 --> 01:05:12,320
Speaker 2: you know, if they're being asked to take crazy positions,

1321
01:05:12,320 --> 01:05:14,040
Speaker 2: they should just say no, and they should make they

1322
01:05:14,040 --> 01:05:15,640
Speaker 2: should be clear of the voters that they're saying no.

1323
01:05:15,760 --> 01:05:20,080
Speaker 2: I think we you no longer do questionnaires. A questionnaire

1324
01:05:20,080 --> 01:05:21,720
Speaker 2: with one question, which is the tell me why you

1325
01:05:21,760 --> 01:05:23,920
Speaker 2: can beat the Republican. That would be my qu that's

1326
01:05:23,960 --> 01:05:25,480
Speaker 2: just the questionnaire. Yeah, that's right.

1327
01:05:26,000 --> 01:05:30,080
Speaker 1: Are you can you imagine Searchlight funding a campaign for

1328
01:05:30,240 --> 01:05:32,120
Speaker 1: against a candidate in a primary.

1329
01:05:32,200 --> 01:05:35,320
Speaker 2: We are acumenical for now. I think what we want

1330
01:05:35,320 --> 01:05:36,720
Speaker 2: to do is just sort of put out the best

1331
01:05:36,720 --> 01:05:39,880
Speaker 2: ideas and approaches and hope that that, you know, people

1332
01:05:39,880 --> 01:05:42,320
Speaker 2: adopt them. So that's that is our stance for the

1333
01:05:42,360 --> 01:05:43,560
Speaker 2: time being. We'll see.

1334
01:05:43,920 --> 01:05:46,400
Speaker 1: Well, I love your marker for success in your mind.

1335
01:05:46,680 --> 01:05:49,000
Speaker 1: If Democrats don't win the Senate, they can't say they

1336
01:05:49,040 --> 01:05:49,680
Speaker 1: won the mid terms.

1337
01:05:50,080 --> 01:05:51,320
Speaker 2: That is exactly what I think.

1338
01:05:52,520 --> 01:05:55,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a high bar, but guess what if you

1339
01:05:55,560 --> 01:05:57,840
Speaker 1: want to if you want to succeed, you got to

1340
01:05:57,840 --> 01:05:58,440
Speaker 1: go beat a high bar.

1341
01:05:58,560 --> 01:06:00,919
Speaker 2: You've done it before, you know, it's important name high.

1342
01:06:01,360 --> 01:06:03,040
Speaker 1: Anyway, Hey Adam, this was great.

1343
01:06:03,320 --> 01:06:03,720
Speaker 2: Uh.

1344
01:06:04,080 --> 01:06:06,400
Speaker 1: Look, you have a book out about the Senate. You

1345
01:06:06,520 --> 01:06:08,360
Speaker 1: talked in such detail on Don't you want to tell

1346
01:06:08,400 --> 01:06:09,560
Speaker 1: people how they can go by it?

1347
01:06:09,560 --> 01:06:14,560
Speaker 2: It's absolutely good. Kill Switch by by Me is available

1348
01:06:14,560 --> 01:06:16,400
Speaker 2: on Amazon and anywhere books are sold, So.

1349
01:06:16,960 --> 01:06:19,720
Speaker 1: Go check it out Searchlight Foundations.

1350
01:06:20,680 --> 01:06:22,440
Speaker 2: It's about the Senate, but it's not boring. It's the

1351
01:06:22,440 --> 01:06:23,760
Speaker 2: best is the mine.

1352
01:06:23,760 --> 01:06:25,600
Speaker 1: Think you did a good job sort of talking a

1353
01:06:25,600 --> 01:06:28,480
Speaker 1: little history. I mean, you you you you sort of

1354
01:06:28,720 --> 01:06:30,880
Speaker 1: you scratched all the itches I was hoping you scratched

1355
01:06:30,920 --> 01:06:34,120
Speaker 1: during our conversation, which was talking about the founder's original

1356
01:06:34,120 --> 01:06:38,440
Speaker 1: intent all this, and you've you've certainly been persuasive to

1357
01:06:38,480 --> 01:06:42,840
Speaker 1: me about the lack of mention of supermajorities in certain

1358
01:06:42,880 --> 01:06:46,160
Speaker 1: parts of the founders versus where they did intentionally bring

1359
01:06:46,240 --> 01:06:49,000
Speaker 1: up the decision super majorities. I think if you're going

1360
01:06:49,040 --> 01:06:51,400
Speaker 1: to be an originalist, you got to pay attention to.

1361
01:06:51,360 --> 01:06:53,600
Speaker 2: That as well. That's right, that's right. Well, thanks Je Fran,

1362
01:06:53,840 --> 01:06:54,400
Speaker 2: good to see it.