1 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. I don't have to 2 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:22,880 Speaker 1: tell y'all it's a tough world out there. Many times 3 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:25,280 Speaker 1: all you want to do is disconnect, and a lot 4 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:29,320 Speaker 1: of us do different things. We fish, we can read. 5 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:33,880 Speaker 1: But the guy I'm gonna tell you about today, Dr 6 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 1: Larry Rudolph. He and his wife Bianca. You know what 7 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:43,519 Speaker 1: they did to disconnect. They like to go hunting. And 8 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 1: I'm not talking about bag in a white tail while 9 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:47,880 Speaker 1: you're up in a deer stand somewhere. I'm talking about 10 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: hopping on a plane and go into some of the 11 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 1: most exotic locations in the world to go hunt big game. 12 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 1: This case that we're going to discuss today is that 13 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 1: of Zambia. This particular case took place in literally the 14 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 1: second largest national park in the world, and at the 15 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 1: end of the day, Dr Rudolph's wife Bianca wound up dead. 16 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:33,559 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Bags. There's 17 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: no secret I like to get out on my boat 18 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 1: when I'm not recording podcasts or teaching my students. It's 19 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:41,959 Speaker 1: just the way I relax. I like to just be 20 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:45,119 Speaker 1: out on the water. Never been much of a hunter. 21 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 1: I don't necessarily have anything against it, but the amount 22 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 1: of money that it would take to do what doctor 23 00:01:53,600 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 1: Larry Rudolph did as a hobby is just astronomical. Jackie 24 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 1: Howard's joining me today executive producer of Crime Stories with 25 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. Jackie, I don't think I've ever really met 26 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:10,960 Speaker 1: a big game hunter. I know a lot of hunters, 27 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 1: you know, growing up here in the South, But this guy, 28 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 1: he beats everything I've ever seen. Actually, Lawrence Rudolph and 29 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 1: his wife Bianca were very well known in the big 30 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:25,680 Speaker 1: game hunting community. They went on these excursions often, and 31 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:29,920 Speaker 1: in fact, in this hunt, Bianca was the only one hunting. 32 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 1: She wanted to add a leopard to her collection of 33 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 1: animal trophies. In this hunt, Bianca was carrying two guns, 34 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 1: a Remington three seventy five rifle and her Rowning twelve 35 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:46,480 Speaker 1: games shot gun. The hunt lasted approximately two weeks, and 36 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 1: as they were packing up early in the morning around 37 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:54,160 Speaker 1: five am to return home, a shot was heard from 38 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 1: the brown shotgun. Lawrence Rudolph said he was in the 39 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:02,359 Speaker 1: bathroom and it think that the shotgun accidentally went off 40 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 1: as Bianca was putting it back in the case. He 41 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 1: says he found her bleeding on the floor. Now, as 42 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:15,360 Speaker 1: investigators looked at this death, they had witnesses who said 43 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 1: they saw her packing up. Before we get into any 44 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 1: of the details, Joe about what happened, I'm curious, is 45 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:28,640 Speaker 1: it possible for you to be packing a gun and 46 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 1: shoot yourself? When you are putting away your rifle inside 47 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 1: its case, the point is down, So how do you 48 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 1: shoot yourself packing a gun? I don't know that it's 49 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 1: even physically possible to accomplish this task. You would have 50 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 1: to be a contortionist, and not just a contortionist, but 51 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 1: if you are the person that is being struck by 52 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 1: the round, you'd have to be remarkably tall and would 53 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 1: rather link the arms. And what I mean by that 54 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 1: is that your body would have to be in such 55 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 1: a way that you could extend your arms to zip 56 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 1: the the case. And in this this case, she was 57 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 1: allegedly putting the twelve gate shotgun into a soft case. 58 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:21,360 Speaker 1: Some people refer to it as a scabbard. It's not 59 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 1: like a hard case that many people have seen. You 60 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 1: know that you think about audio equipment comes in or 61 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 1: or other items that has almost looks like an instrument case. 62 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 1: This is a soft case. And you know, she was 63 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 1: not a very big woman. She's not, you know, really 64 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 1: really tall. Her arm length was pretty much average for 65 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 1: a woman her heights. She was just over five three 66 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 1: I think. And so in order to have this happen, 67 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:56,479 Speaker 1: how exactly would the weapon itself discharge or actually, you know, 68 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 1: how how are you even get the mechanism within the 69 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:03,280 Speaker 1: weapon to start the firing process, which means that that 70 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 1: firing pen would have had to have been initiated and 71 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:10,919 Speaker 1: the pen driven forward slammed into the primer of a 72 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 1: seated round that's in there, in this case, a twelve 73 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 1: gage round of double locked buckshot, and driving that into 74 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:21,240 Speaker 1: her chest, which is apparently where it wound up. It 75 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:25,360 Speaker 1: seems like it defies all the laws of physics. And 76 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 1: one interesting little aside here is that it has been 77 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:35,680 Speaker 1: put forth that the round passed not just out of 78 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:39,480 Speaker 1: the end of the muzzle, but it passed through the 79 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 1: end of the soft case and then into her body, 80 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 1: which again makes this all the more suspicious. So let's 81 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:53,600 Speaker 1: play Devil's advocate a little here, Joe, is it possible? 82 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 1: You know, we've all seen TV shows, and you know 83 00:05:57,680 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 1: I say this all the time, and I probably shouldn't, 84 00:05:59,880 --> 00:06:03,599 Speaker 1: but it's the fact we watch things and it's thrown 85 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 1: out there in a lot of places that, oh I 86 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:09,800 Speaker 1: dropped the gun, oh I knocked the gun over and 87 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:14,040 Speaker 1: it fired. Is that actually possible? Well, yeah, I guess 88 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:17,159 Speaker 1: that it has occurred over the years. I think there's 89 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 1: any number of cases where you can go back and 90 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 1: say that there was some kind of weapon malfunction where 91 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:26,839 Speaker 1: the firing pin would be driven forward and the weapon 92 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 1: does in fact discharge. However, please understand that is the 93 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 1: exception and not the norm. You know, I gotta tell you, 94 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 1: just from my own personal experience, I've actually been involved 95 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 1: in suicide investigations where family members have implored me, have 96 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:48,720 Speaker 1: implored me to ask the medical exam or change the 97 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 1: ruling and call it an accidental discharge. And you know why. 98 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 1: The person is, you know, cleaning the weapon or they 99 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:59,480 Speaker 1: dropped the weapon. And these people in many of these 100 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 1: cases own the weapon, and they have experience and weapons, 101 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 1: and so it's dubious at best, I think in many 102 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 1: of these circumstances. And you know, this goes back to 103 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 1: one of the central essential premise in everything that we 104 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 1: do is medical legal death investigators, you know, with our 105 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 1: five manners of death, you know, homicide is the king 106 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:23,560 Speaker 1: of the hill. And the reason it is is because 107 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:28,679 Speaker 1: our working assumption is that all deaths are homicides until 108 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 1: proven otherwise. And so you have to go down this 109 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 1: kind of intellectual checklist, if you will, all right, and 110 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: and kind of tick the boxes and eliminate everything else 111 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 1: and see what kind of appears. So let's tick off 112 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 1: a box here, Joe. First off, you have to rule 113 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 1: out that it's not a possible suicide because to be 114 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 1: able to shoot yourself with a long gun, with shotgun 115 00:07:56,240 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 1: or rival, you're gonna have to kind be a little 116 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 1: bit of a cartortionist or able to use your feet 117 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 1: just like you would your hands. Yeah, yeah, you will. 118 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 1: And you know, and I've I've had people that you know, 119 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 1: have actually pulled triggers with their toes. I've had people 120 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 1: that have really Yeah, it's yes, yeah, it is. It is. Listen, 121 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 1: if if somebody is suicidal to that point, they'll they'll 122 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 1: find a way to do it. If their only means 123 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 1: is to is to self inflict, it's it's much more 124 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 1: difficult to actuate to trigger. And what I'm talking about, 125 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 1: what has to happen with a self inflicted shotgun woman, 126 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:39,320 Speaker 1: or any kind of long arm, is that you have 127 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 1: to place the butt. That's the end of the weapon, 128 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 1: the non working end of the weapon. Okay, the non 129 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 1: business end, as they say. You have to kind of 130 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 1: brace it somehow, either on the floor, and the individual 131 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:53,560 Speaker 1: gets over the weapon and places it, you know, into 132 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 1: their chest. I've had them place it under their chin. 133 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 1: I've had people place it in, you know, in the 134 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 1: center of their forehead and reach down with their thumb 135 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 1: perhaps and depress the trigger. But a lot of this 136 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:10,680 Speaker 1: is going to be depended upon the barrel length. Now, 137 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 1: you know, if you're talking about a Remington twelve gate shotgun, 138 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:17,680 Speaker 1: which in this case, in Bianca's case, this is set 139 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 1: up for hunting, all right. This is not like a 140 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 1: tactical shotgun where you see cops and military folks and 141 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:25,440 Speaker 1: people that have them for home defense, where the barrel 142 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:27,840 Speaker 1: is shorter, where you can swing around a corner and 143 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:30,600 Speaker 1: not get caught up on anything. And those barrels tend 144 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 1: to be a lot a lot shorter. This is not 145 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 1: what we're talking about. We're talking about something that is 146 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 1: going to give you a level of accuracy when you're 147 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:39,679 Speaker 1: firing it. And I gotta tell you, if you're going 148 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 1: out to uh To to hunt a big cat like 149 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 1: this a leopard, first off, I'm gonna be terrified personally, 150 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:49,320 Speaker 1: but I want to make sure that I'm as accurate 151 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:52,120 Speaker 1: as I possibly can be. And so that's the type 152 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:54,680 Speaker 1: of weapon we're talking about. The muzzle of this weapon, 153 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 1: the barrel rather is very long. And so how how 154 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 1: do you how do you you do this with a 155 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 1: weapon like this if it is in fact a suicide 156 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 1: and it's very difficult. Generally I will have males that 157 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 1: will do it because their arms tend to be longer, 158 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 1: they have more height, they can kind of mend over 159 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 1: and manipulate the weapon. When you have a lady that 160 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:18,840 Speaker 1: is her size and she's kind of diminutive, you know, 161 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:23,199 Speaker 1: how do you arrive at that at that position? And again, 162 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:28,400 Speaker 1: why why would you why would you choose to self 163 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 1: inflict around into your body in with a weapon that 164 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 1: is partially encased. So I think that you know, from 165 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 1: jump Street, we can kind of rule out suicide here. 166 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:42,719 Speaker 1: And of course there's a lot of other stuff that 167 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: goes into suicide investigation, like you know, suicidal ideation, people vocalizing, 168 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to go on anymore. I'm depressed. 169 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 1: I've got all these other issues, previous attempts, and there 170 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 1: was nothing here to indicate that that was the case. 171 00:10:57,440 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 1: With Bianca's death line, Rudolph initially told the consular chief 172 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 1: in Zambia as they conducted their investigation that she may 173 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:10,680 Speaker 1: have died by suicide, but the investigation then ruled as 174 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 1: an accidental discharge. What would have her body sustained? Well, 175 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:21,319 Speaker 1: you know, the ammunition that we're talking about is buckshot. 176 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 1: It's it's double locked buckshot. And so imagine if you will, 177 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:29,319 Speaker 1: And you know, our listeners and body backs are really 178 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 1: good at this sort of thing because they love forensics, 179 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:34,200 Speaker 1: and I'm sure that some are familiar with this, but 180 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:37,960 Speaker 1: just imagine, if you will, an object that is just 181 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 1: smaller than a standard marble. Okay, everybody got that in 182 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:44,960 Speaker 1: your in your mind's eye, and to think about multiple 183 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 1: those loaded into a single cartridge. Now, those those marbles 184 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 1: that I'm referring to are about about thirty caliber in size, 185 00:11:56,440 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 1: so it's it's rather substantial. You know, if you've got 186 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:04,080 Speaker 1: that vision of a marble and give me you're saying 187 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 1: that that thirty caliber is about the size of a 188 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 1: standard marble. Is that where it's a little bit smaller 189 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 1: than a standard marble. So it's not I'm just trying 190 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 1: to give folks an understanding that it's it is about 191 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:20,120 Speaker 1: that size. Approximating it is the closest thing I can 192 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:22,440 Speaker 1: really come to. We're talking about buckshot, and the reason 193 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:25,200 Speaker 1: it's called buckshot is that you go out and you 194 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 1: hunt a buck with it. You can kill a buck, deer, 195 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 1: a big animal like that. I can only assume that 196 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:33,040 Speaker 1: that's the reason they purpose this, you know, because I 197 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:35,559 Speaker 1: gotta tell you, I got no experience with big game hunting. 198 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 1: I've always associated say, for instance, the other weapon that 199 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:43,320 Speaker 1: they're carrying, you know, which is a large bore three 200 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 1: caliber round that is a large boar. You use this 201 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 1: to hunt things like a rhinoceros or a hippopotamus or 202 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 1: something like that. Potentially because they've bagged those kinds of animals. 203 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 1: You would think that that you would want that, but no, 204 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:04,720 Speaker 1: she was gonna use shotguns. So with that idea in mind, 205 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 1: when this weapon, this single round of buckshot, is discharged, 206 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:15,440 Speaker 1: you've got not just a single little marble, if you 207 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 1: will we'll just use that term projectile coming out to 208 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 1: end that that that that weapon. You've gotten multiple of 209 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:25,960 Speaker 1: these thirty caliber size projectiles coming out of the end 210 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 1: of that muzzle, and well what happens, Well, what happens 211 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 1: is is that remember, shotguns are what are called smooth bore. 212 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:35,920 Speaker 1: That means that there's no rifling in it. It doesn't 213 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 1: twist at all, all right, when it comes out of 214 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:42,400 Speaker 1: that muzzle, all right, comes out in a little cup. 215 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 1: It's called a shot cup. It kind of deploys like 216 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 1: it looks almost like a flower pedal when it opens 217 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:50,440 Speaker 1: up out of the end of that that weapon. And 218 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 1: these little bitty projectiles come out of the end of 219 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 1: this thing and they slam into the target. Well, because 220 00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 1: they're not rifled, they're not staying with pinpoint accuracy going 221 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:06,560 Speaker 1: down range. They're beginning to spread, all right, And as 222 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 1: they spread, they get wider and wider apart. So whatever 223 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 1: target that they wind up impacting is going to be 224 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 1: kind of the initial impression that the investigators will give 225 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 1: in order to determine range of fire. So, if you've 226 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 1: got a pattern that has just begun to spread, let's 227 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:30,960 Speaker 1: say it's only you've got multiple of these little pellets 228 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 1: that are hitting the body and say they're only I 229 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 1: don't know, they're no more than well, let's just say 230 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:39,080 Speaker 1: you could you could throw a you could put a 231 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 1: quarter over the size of it. You know that that 232 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 1: round when it came out of the came out of 233 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 1: the end of that muzzle is has not spread at all. 234 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 1: But now when you start to step back and that 235 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 1: pattern begins to get broader and broader and broader, you 236 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 1: know that there's a greater distance between the end of 237 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 1: the muzzle and your target area. And in her case, 238 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 1: one of the things that was witnessed, which is a 239 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 1: fascinating story in and of itself. So what you just 240 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 1: told me, Joe, or taught me Joe, is that the 241 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 1: difference with a shotgun and the type of ammunition that 242 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 1: it uses, there's not going to be any stipling to 243 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 1: be able to look for. Well, yeah, that that's that's 244 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 1: pretty much the case. You're you're not going to have 245 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:30,240 Speaker 1: it as prominently patterned in this particular case. And a 246 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:32,960 Speaker 1: lot of that, because we believe she was, would be 247 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 1: evidenced with the clothing. And you know, one of the 248 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 1: big questions that you would ask is where the clothes 249 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 1: preserved in any way, Is there any way to examine 250 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 1: those because if if you do have powder that comes 251 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 1: out of the end of this barrel, let's just think 252 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 1: about it just for a second. I want everybody to 253 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 1: kind of get an idea. As a matter of fact, 254 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 1: one of the things I teach my students, if you 255 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 1: want to understand about powder distribution on a target area, 256 00:15:57,120 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 1: go into your bathroom at home and get a little 257 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 1: bit of baby powders, some talcoum, all right, and put it, 258 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 1: put it in the palm of your hand, and then 259 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 1: walk up to your bathroom mirror and gently blow it 260 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 1: onto the bathroom mirror. All right. Now, the closer you 261 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:15,040 Speaker 1: are to that bathroom mirror, you'll get a bigger deposit 262 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 1: on the mirror itself. But the further you move back away, 263 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 1: I mean, everybody's seeing baby powder just kind of you know, 264 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 1: puffs up in the air and then it just kind 265 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 1: of drifts down, kind of the same with powder coming 266 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 1: out of the end of the gun, out of the 267 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: end of the weapon. The closer you are, the closer 268 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 1: you are to that target area, you're gonna get a 269 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 1: deposition of this powder that kind of sticks to this 270 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 1: area and it's kind of embedded into the skin. The 271 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 1: further back you are, it's gonna drift down. That's just 272 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 1: that's the dynamic of it. You know, powder, that powder itself, 273 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:48,840 Speaker 1: whether it's talcoum powder or or unburned gunpowder or whatever 274 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 1: it is, it doesn't have it doesn't have the best 275 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 1: aerodynamic characteristics. It's not like a projectile, like a lead 276 00:16:56,840 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 1: projectile that holds onto that energy. You know, is it 277 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 1: blast out of the end of that muzzle. It's containing energy, 278 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:07,159 Speaker 1: all right, because it's solid, it's moving forward, and it 279 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:10,280 Speaker 1: slams into a target with powder. It doesn't do that. 280 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 1: That's why, you know, when Nancy and I talked about 281 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:16,400 Speaker 1: these things on her show, you begin to look look 282 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:20,440 Speaker 1: out beyond about eighteen inches, and you know there's some disagreement, 283 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:24,199 Speaker 1: you know, because it's not real exacting. Some people say 284 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 1: from eighteen inches out to you know, roughly, you're gonna 285 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 1: begin to get this drift where we'll begin to kind 286 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 1: of fall away. Anything within eighteen inches though, you'll have 287 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 1: powder distribution. So that's one of the big questions, and 288 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:40,840 Speaker 1: that's that's one of the things you know that that 289 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:44,720 Speaker 1: comes into play in death investigation is that you're not 290 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:47,200 Speaker 1: necessarily always gonna have a witness that's gonna be able 291 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:49,440 Speaker 1: to give you, you know, the straight story on this, 292 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:52,120 Speaker 1: and all you have left behind is a physical evidence, 293 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 1: and that that's powerful physical evidence, isn't it When you 294 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 1: think about it, you know what what's going to be 295 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 1: left behind, what's going to be distributed on that harget area. 296 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:03,399 Speaker 1: And if you don't have that with a clothing or 297 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:07,200 Speaker 1: a body, you've got big trouble as an investigator. Well, 298 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:09,919 Speaker 1: I should have taken better notes, Professor Morgan, because what 299 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:16,400 Speaker 1: I actually meant to say was you would not have striations. 300 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 1: Although stippling was a great answer, and he told me 301 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 1: a lot, But what I meant to say was you're 302 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:25,879 Speaker 1: not gonna have striations on buckshot. No, no, you're not. 303 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:29,200 Speaker 1: And that's that's an excellent point, because you know, most 304 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 1: people out there, and I'm glad that most people don't 305 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 1: know this about firearms. It's it's geeky people like me, 306 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 1: forensic scientists that study these sorts of things. You know. 307 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 1: One of the things that we look for when we 308 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:42,440 Speaker 1: have a rifled weapon, which means that we've got all 309 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:46,159 Speaker 1: of these twists in the barrel. They imprint themselves on 310 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 1: the exterior of this projectile that's going down the barrel 311 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:54,040 Speaker 1: as it's twisting and spinning in the barrel. That's why earlier, 312 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 1: you know, when I'm talking about this twelve gage browning um, 313 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:00,919 Speaker 1: it's a smooth bore web. And it's like if you 314 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 1: look down, if you shine a light into the muzzle 315 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 1: of that weapon, and you can catch a glimpse from 316 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,880 Speaker 1: where the weapon kind of breaks open. You never look 317 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 1: in the end of a muzzle of a weapon. You 318 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:17,160 Speaker 1: look down. If you can look down, shine a light 319 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:20,760 Speaker 1: down in that muzzle where the project the live round 320 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:23,880 Speaker 1: is actually seated in there, you can actually see how 321 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 1: smooth it is compared to say, for instance, if you're 322 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:29,440 Speaker 1: talking about a hunting rifle, and the reason it's called 323 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:33,440 Speaker 1: rifle is it's rifled. It's it's got these these twisting 324 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 1: the barrel. And so when you examine when farms examiners 325 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:45,120 Speaker 1: examine projectiles out of shotgun, it's a bit more I'm 326 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:48,720 Speaker 1: not going to use terms subjective, but there's not as 327 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:53,119 Speaker 1: much evidence that's left behind on these little balls that 328 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:55,440 Speaker 1: come out of the end of that smooth barrel that 329 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:59,359 Speaker 1: you can specifically tied back to that particular weapon as 330 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 1: much as you will with like a rifled weapon, where 331 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:05,480 Speaker 1: it will leave a specific ballistic signature on that surface. 332 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:29,240 Speaker 1: You know, I've only covered one other homicide in my 333 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:32,080 Speaker 1: career off the continent of Africa, and that was the 334 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:34,800 Speaker 1: Oscar of the story Is case out of South Africa. Now, 335 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 1: they were a bit more sophisticated down there with their 336 00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 1: crime scene investigation, but still it was in some people's 337 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:48,439 Speaker 1: minds lacking. But in the case of Bianca Rudolph, she's 338 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:53,439 Speaker 1: literally in the wilderness. She she is. Her death actually 339 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 1: occurred on the property of one of the world's largest 340 00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:00,080 Speaker 1: game preserves. I can't even begin to fathom that. And 341 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:04,440 Speaker 1: you talk about isolation. For me, I think about what 342 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:07,280 Speaker 1: would I do if I was absent all the resources 343 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:09,719 Speaker 1: that I need to work a crumb scene in that 344 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:13,359 Speaker 1: environment you talked about isolated. I don't even know if 345 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: that begins to describe a Jackie. An investigation was not 346 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 1: immediately pushed in the death of Bianca Rudolph, as it 347 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 1: was thought to be an accidental death. But as always, 348 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:29,199 Speaker 1: when there is an American death outside our country, the 349 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 1: consulate in that area is notified. Now Rudolph's body was 350 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:41,440 Speaker 1: sent to the funeral home, and Lawrence Rudolph was pushing 351 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:46,399 Speaker 1: for cremation, saying that the time and the distance that 352 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 1: it would not be possible to return Bianca's body to 353 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:58,080 Speaker 1: the US. But we know that Bianca and Lawrence Rudolph 354 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:02,399 Speaker 1: shipped animals back to the US all the time, So 355 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 1: why then could her body not be transported back to 356 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 1: the US. Yeah, that's a fallacy. Of course, it could 357 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:17,480 Speaker 1: be the body is is preserved. There's an embalming that 358 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:20,360 Speaker 1: takes place, the bodies are prepped and they're sent back 359 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:24,879 Speaker 1: over You know, I myself have have actually I've done autopsies, 360 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 1: participated in autopsies that have come back literally from Africa. 361 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:32,639 Speaker 1: I know of three missionaries over the course of my 362 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:36,800 Speaker 1: career that I did that autopsies on are assisted with 363 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 1: them at the family's request when they got back to 364 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:43,360 Speaker 1: the US. And fascinatingly, in one of the most bizarre 365 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 1: cases I've ever been involved in, I actually had a 366 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:49,240 Speaker 1: body that showed up in New Orleans when I was 367 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:53,160 Speaker 1: working down there, packed in charcoal. I've never seen anything 368 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:57,919 Speaker 1: like it. It was absolutely bizarre, but interestingly enough, the 369 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:02,160 Speaker 1: body was very well preserved. Yet it's possible to embalm 370 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:05,639 Speaker 1: a body and send that body back to the US. 371 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 1: I don't understand what this idea of. You know, we 372 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:13,240 Speaker 1: have to cremate the body and get the body back 373 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:16,159 Speaker 1: to the husband and have the body transported back to 374 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:18,960 Speaker 1: the US in this manner. I mean, this is you know, 375 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:21,680 Speaker 1: the twenty one century that we live in now, and 376 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 1: this is completely possible to do. So. I don't understand 377 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 1: the rush. It's mind mind boggling. But as an investigator, 378 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, I gotta tell you if I 379 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 1: have family members that are push, push, push for cremations 380 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 1: like this, it's gonna make alarms go off in my head. 381 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:43,919 Speaker 1: Remember what what I've already said. You know, every death 382 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 1: and I don't care how old the person is, I 383 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 1: don't care how much disease they might have. As an investigator, 384 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:53,320 Speaker 1: I get one shot at this. My premise that I 385 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 1: put forward is that every death, and I mean every 386 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:59,400 Speaker 1: death is a homicide until I can prove otherwise. Well, 387 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:03,440 Speaker 1: the constant ler chief in Zambia obviously thought the same 388 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:06,679 Speaker 1: way that you did, Joe, because the consular chief and 389 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:09,919 Speaker 1: two other embassy officials went to the funeral home to 390 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 1: take photographs and preserve any evidence, because the push was 391 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:18,680 Speaker 1: on for her to be cremated within three days. And 392 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:21,880 Speaker 1: we found out later that when Lawrence Rudolph found out 393 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 1: that photos were taken of his wife, he was livid. 394 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 1: So what's the possibility that those photos could have shown us? Oh, 395 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 1: it's it's remarkable. In a tip of the cat to 396 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:39,160 Speaker 1: the consulate down there. The gentleman that actually got involved 397 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 1: in this, he's a US He's a US government employee, 398 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 1: works for the State Department. But in addition to that, 399 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:50,200 Speaker 1: this guy is a former marine. All Right, you've heard 400 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 1: the old adage, you know there are no such things 401 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:54,399 Speaker 1: as X marines or a former marine. Well, he's a 402 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 1: former marine, and he he thought that this was super 403 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 1: bizarre self, so he decides to break out the camera, 404 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 1: and not just break out the camera, he broke out 405 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:11,520 Speaker 1: the tape measure and he actually did many of the 406 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 1: things that we do in the morgue, you know, when 407 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 1: he went to the to the funeral home where the 408 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:22,359 Speaker 1: body was, he began taking scale photographs of these injuries 409 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 1: that she had sustained, took measurements of the defects, and 410 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:33,440 Speaker 1: had voluminous notes apparently. And guess what he did when 411 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:36,200 Speaker 1: he he had acquired all of this stuff, he turned 412 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:39,840 Speaker 1: it over the FBI, because you know, he's looking at 413 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 1: this from the perspective of somebody that knows his way 414 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,679 Speaker 1: around weapons, all right, Like I said, he's a four Marine. 415 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:49,160 Speaker 1: He's had exposure to firearms, trust me, and so he's 416 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,880 Speaker 1: looking at this, he's thinking this, this just this stinks. 417 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:54,480 Speaker 1: I don't I don't like the way this looks. I 418 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,239 Speaker 1: don't like what we're being told. I don't like the 419 00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:00,160 Speaker 1: speed at which this is happening. You know, you you're heelf. 420 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:03,320 Speaker 1: Jackie had mentioned three days, wanted it done in three days. 421 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 1: Why the rush, I don't understand. And so it made 422 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,440 Speaker 1: it made his senses start to tingle there for a moment, 423 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,360 Speaker 1: and he decided to step back and do his own examination. 424 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:15,439 Speaker 1: And thank goodness he did, because you know, that's the 425 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:19,160 Speaker 1: only examination that was done on her remains. In combination 426 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:25,160 Speaker 1: to the Consular General's suspicions, is a friend of Bianca 427 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:31,400 Speaker 1: Rudolph's asked the FBI to investigate, and that kicked off 428 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:35,200 Speaker 1: an in depth inquiry. She says, according to the friend, 429 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:42,199 Speaker 1: Lawrence Rudolf had been having a long term affair with 430 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:46,160 Speaker 1: an office manager. The couple owned more than one dental practice, 431 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:51,720 Speaker 1: actually millionaires, yet he was having a long term affair, 432 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:55,080 Speaker 1: according to the friend, and that is why she thought 433 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:58,879 Speaker 1: that Bianca was killed. You've already got this level of suspicion, 434 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,160 Speaker 1: that is, you know, this rising up here, and you're 435 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,040 Speaker 1: beginning to think, well, what in what in the world? 436 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,000 Speaker 1: You know, first of all, wise he wanted the body 437 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:10,679 Speaker 1: cremated so quickly. And I'm sure that when Bianca's friend 438 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:14,119 Speaker 1: heard about this, she's thinking, wait, hang on, this is 439 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:17,480 Speaker 1: She's not a neaphight. She's not just somebody that has 440 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:21,119 Speaker 1: been handed a weapon and you know, thrown out in 441 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 1: the bush of of Africa and told to go and 442 00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:28,200 Speaker 1: kill a leopard. This is somebody that is learned when 443 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 1: it comes to stalking big game. This is somebody that's probably, 444 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:36,200 Speaker 1: you know, compared to me, somebody that's fearless out there, 445 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 1: that knows what they're doing. How how does she wind 446 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 1: up shot? And so when her friend hears about all 447 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:46,840 Speaker 1: of this, it's quite you know, it's quite fascinating, you 448 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 1: know that that they would they would be in such 449 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 1: a rush to do this. And so her friend automatically 450 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,199 Speaker 1: contacts the FBI and says, look, there's just something not 451 00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,359 Speaker 1: right here. He's in a foreign country. My friend is dead. 452 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:02,439 Speaker 1: He's had an ongoing affair, which you know, from a 453 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:07,120 Speaker 1: family dynamic standpoint, you know, my understanding is that Bianca 454 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 1: was aware of the affair um and that they had 455 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 1: been living this kind of open marriage for a while, 456 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:16,040 Speaker 1: but she didn't divorce him, and so this is something 457 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 1: that has been allowed within the context of their marriage 458 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:21,880 Speaker 1: to go on and on and on for quite some time. 459 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:27,760 Speaker 1: This case is a forensic Schmorgus board because you can't 460 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 1: do a full autopsy on a body that doesn't exist anymore. 461 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:38,120 Speaker 1: Investigators had to rely on the photos and the recollections 462 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:41,719 Speaker 1: of people there and what was seen by the consular General. 463 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 1: Then you throw in the investigation that started in the US, 464 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 1: which had to become a computer investigation in that they 465 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:59,240 Speaker 1: started looking back for documents and proof of the affair. 466 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 1: And this long time activity in putting all of this together, 467 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 1: how did they come up with the idea that Lawrence 468 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:13,920 Speaker 1: Rudolph killed his wife. Well, you know, one of the 469 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 1: things that that kind of drew them in was the 470 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 1: fact that Lawrence had apparently taken out multiple insurance policies 471 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:25,920 Speaker 1: on Bianca, and we're talking about millions and millions of 472 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 1: dollars from a variety of sources of these policies that 473 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 1: have been taken out and pretty quickly. I think after 474 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 1: her her demise, he was putting forth paperwork to get 475 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:44,280 Speaker 1: these checks processed and get them into his hands, and 476 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 1: there didn't seem to be as well. I think that 477 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:51,520 Speaker 1: one of the things that raised the suspicion of investigator 478 00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:55,560 Speaker 1: state side was that they began to look at this 479 00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:59,440 Speaker 1: and think, well, he it's really kind of an inappropriate 480 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:03,959 Speaker 1: amount of reef our time for grieving because you know, 481 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 1: upon his arrival back in the US, first off, there 482 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:10,360 Speaker 1: was a delay in actually telling his children that their 483 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,719 Speaker 1: mom had passed. I think that it had been several 484 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:19,480 Speaker 1: days before they were ever even notified. But another level 485 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:22,720 Speaker 1: of suspicion here is the fact that he decided to 486 00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:25,880 Speaker 1: take a trip with this mistress out of the country 487 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:28,240 Speaker 1: in very short order. And again, you know, that's that's 488 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:32,240 Speaker 1: gonna make alarm bells for investigators go off. But there 489 00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:34,959 Speaker 1: was also one other piece that you got to go 490 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,600 Speaker 1: back to Zambia to look at. Now, they didn't do 491 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 1: a matter of fact, they did a poor job relative 492 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 1: to the scene and the body and all these sorts 493 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:46,920 Speaker 1: of things. But what did happen There was a farms 494 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:51,720 Speaker 1: examiner in Zambia that worked for the government over there, 495 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:56,120 Speaker 1: and they did get their hands on that shotgun. And 496 00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 1: one of the things that they did, and this force, 497 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:04,480 Speaker 1: this information went back to the FBI, was that their 498 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:07,520 Speaker 1: farms examiner over there conducted what's referred to as a 499 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 1: drop test. And just so our listeners know, with a 500 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:16,920 Speaker 1: drop test, what you will do is that the intent 501 00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 1: is to this weapon. That is, essentially, if you will, 502 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 1: for lack of a better term, it's cocked. That means 503 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:26,120 Speaker 1: it's in the ready position. You don't have to have 504 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:29,120 Speaker 1: a live around in it, but it's cocked and it's 505 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:31,760 Speaker 1: in the ready position. So let's just say that you 506 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:36,480 Speaker 1: take this weapon and you hold it at two ft okay, 507 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:38,720 Speaker 1: and then you drop it on the butt that means 508 00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:41,719 Speaker 1: the back, the back portion of it where it seeds 509 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:46,520 Speaker 1: into the shoulder, and you crack upen the weapon after 510 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 1: it's been dropped from that height, and you check to 511 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:53,600 Speaker 1: see if the firing pen is still not actuated. Then 512 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:56,320 Speaker 1: you go up to three ft drop it again, see 513 00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:59,240 Speaker 1: if see if it's still there in in in place 514 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 1: and hasn't been actuallyitd then up to fore feet and 515 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:04,120 Speaker 1: that's what they did. This progressive test and the drop 516 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:09,120 Speaker 1: test revealed that this weapon didn't malfunction. That that you know, 517 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 1: after this this testing was conducted, that it was proven 518 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,720 Speaker 1: to them at least in order to actuate that firing pin, 519 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 1: you have to pull that trigger. You have to pull 520 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:24,960 Speaker 1: the trigger. And there's no amount of dropping that could 521 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:28,440 Speaker 1: have taken place in that bedroom where she was shot 522 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,800 Speaker 1: in order for the thing to accidentally discharge into her chest. 523 00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:56,200 Speaker 1: Just imagine you're in the bathroom. You've had a long 524 00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:59,680 Speaker 1: two weeks out in this wilderness, hunting doing that thing 525 00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:04,360 Speaker 1: that you you you love the most, apparently, and all 526 00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:10,040 Speaker 1: of a sudden, in this tiny two room cabin, you 527 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 1: hear the report of a weapon. The sound of this 528 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:18,400 Speaker 1: thing being discharged. It would have been almost like being 529 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 1: sealed up in an oil drum and somebody banging on 530 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:24,960 Speaker 1: the outside of with a hammer. That's how loud it 531 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:27,360 Speaker 1: would have been. And that's and that's the case. That's 532 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,240 Speaker 1: what Dr. Rudolph said. He was in the bathroom and 533 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 1: he heard the shot, but other people heard the shot too. 534 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:35,440 Speaker 1: There were people in a cabin. It's early in the morning, 535 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:38,280 Speaker 1: by five thirty am. This is when hunters get up 536 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:41,000 Speaker 1: and they get moving, they're eating breakfast, they're ready to go. 537 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:45,240 Speaker 1: And people from down the way heard the shot as well, 538 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:48,800 Speaker 1: and they came running to the cabin. Here's the point 539 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:55,440 Speaker 1: that I find absolutely fascinating about this. Dr Rudolph says 540 00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:58,200 Speaker 1: he was in the bathroom, in the shower, getting ready 541 00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:03,520 Speaker 1: to go home, to travel home from their trip. Doesn't 542 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:05,200 Speaker 1: it stand to reason that if you all of a 543 00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:08,600 Speaker 1: sudden here this big boom, that there's a shot, that 544 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:11,320 Speaker 1: you're not going to take the time to get completely 545 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,319 Speaker 1: dressed to your shoes to go find out what this 546 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:20,520 Speaker 1: big noises in your cabin what he did? Yeah, Yeah, 547 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:24,359 Speaker 1: you're you're you're hopping out of the shower, all right, 548 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:26,759 Speaker 1: You're hopping out of the shower. This is like a 549 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:30,680 Speaker 1: grenade going off inside of the room immediately adjacent to you. 550 00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:32,600 Speaker 1: You're gonna want to find out, and you're not gonna 551 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:35,960 Speaker 1: take time throw your clothes on like you're going to 552 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:38,640 Speaker 1: dinner or something or going going to breakfast. You're gonna 553 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:43,120 Speaker 1: hop out with a towel on and this is you know, 554 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:46,440 Speaker 1: this is the mother of your children. Here you walk in, 555 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:49,759 Speaker 1: she's faced down on the floor. There's weapon laying there 556 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:52,319 Speaker 1: about three ft away. According to what he said, and 557 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:57,160 Speaker 1: your first instinct, and this is this is not a 558 00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:59,840 Speaker 1: person that's never seen blood before, all right. Now, granted 559 00:34:59,880 --> 00:35:03,520 Speaker 1: he's not an m D. He's a dentist, but you know, 560 00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:08,120 Speaker 1: let's face it, he's had experience with with you know, 561 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,960 Speaker 1: horrible things he's seen. And plus it's his wife. Immediately 562 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:13,960 Speaker 1: you would think that, you know, he's gonna be there 563 00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:16,839 Speaker 1: in a towel, he's gonna be doing chess compressions, all 564 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:20,560 Speaker 1: these sorts of things. And that's what he had told 565 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,520 Speaker 1: in one part of his story. But you know, as 566 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 1: I mentioned, when this the sound of this weapon being 567 00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:32,919 Speaker 1: discharged traveled out, you know, from from this cabin, there 568 00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:36,160 Speaker 1: was an area that's not very far away. It's like 569 00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:39,319 Speaker 1: the area where people the kind of commons area where 570 00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:42,239 Speaker 1: everybody gathers, and there were people in that commons area 571 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:45,279 Speaker 1: eating breakfast at five thirty in the morning. They heard 572 00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:51,080 Speaker 1: the shot as well. And one of these individuals, who 573 00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:54,080 Speaker 1: is one of the local guides, went running to the cabin. 574 00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:59,120 Speaker 1: What didn't marry up with Dr. Rudolph's statement relative to 575 00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:01,839 Speaker 1: you know, he was in the shower. And this sort 576 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:06,000 Speaker 1: of thing is when this gentleman came up from the 577 00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:10,960 Speaker 1: breakfast area, he he saw Dr. Rudolph. Dr Rudolph was 578 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:15,080 Speaker 1: fully closed, he had shoes on, you know that. You know, okay, well, 579 00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:17,120 Speaker 1: they're getting ready to leave that. You know, they have 580 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:19,640 Speaker 1: to blast out of there and go catch plane and 581 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:23,720 Speaker 1: get back to the US. But you know, which is it, Doc, 582 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:27,280 Speaker 1: Were you in the shower or are you fully clothed? 583 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:29,480 Speaker 1: And again, this is one of the things that we 584 00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:34,799 Speaker 1: look for in investigations, inconsistencies versus consistencies with stories. That's 585 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:37,840 Speaker 1: why many times that when people are questioned, they're asked 586 00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:41,239 Speaker 1: to repeat the story numerous times and to see if 587 00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:45,400 Speaker 1: if it maintains continuity. In this case, it it really 588 00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:49,759 Speaker 1: really didn't. It's quite a tell. You know, when she 589 00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:52,960 Speaker 1: would have been observed on the floor there and you know, 590 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:55,799 Speaker 1: I'd like to go back to this idea of of 591 00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:59,520 Speaker 1: this injury she sustained. There would have been blood everywhere 592 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:03,520 Speaker 1: and one other point here that I didn't touch on earlier. 593 00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:10,399 Speaker 1: That's quite fascinating. Remember, it is being put forth that 594 00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:16,520 Speaker 1: when she was shot, this weapon was already encased or 595 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:19,560 Speaker 1: partially in case. Remember the story is that she was 596 00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:23,879 Speaker 1: placing this twelve gates shotgun into the scabbard or into 597 00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:29,759 Speaker 1: the soft case and it discharged. Well, folks might not 598 00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:36,200 Speaker 1: realize this, but when a weapon discharges like this and 599 00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:39,000 Speaker 1: it passes through what we call the round, passes through 600 00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:42,400 Speaker 1: what we refer to as an intermediate target. One of 601 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:46,160 Speaker 1: the other things that would have been witnessed in this area. 602 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:48,680 Speaker 1: First off, the end of the scabbard would have been 603 00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:51,960 Speaker 1: blown out, because you're talking about twelve gags round. You 604 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:55,840 Speaker 1: would have seen bits of fabric. You would have seen 605 00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:58,759 Speaker 1: upon the exterior of the case if its actual leather, 606 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:02,600 Speaker 1: if it's vinyl or pleather or whatever it is this 607 00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:05,720 Speaker 1: thing's made out of. That debris would have passed into 608 00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:08,000 Speaker 1: the body as well, and you could see that around 609 00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:11,920 Speaker 1: the injury. Was any of that stuff seen and and 610 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:16,320 Speaker 1: did it get destroyed? And attempts to resuscitate her, because 611 00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:20,440 Speaker 1: allegedly Dr. Rudolph says that he did try to resuscitate her, 612 00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:24,080 Speaker 1: and this would have been quite the messy affair. He 613 00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:28,640 Speaker 1: would have been absolutely covered in blood. When you're talking 614 00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:31,799 Speaker 1: about a shotgun wound to the chest, her chest would 615 00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:34,719 Speaker 1: have been opened up, particularly at this range, it would 616 00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:37,399 Speaker 1: have been a gaping injury more than likely. And so 617 00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:42,560 Speaker 1: I understand that when you're giving chest compressions, which you know, 618 00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:45,080 Speaker 1: any right thinking person would be doing, if you're trying 619 00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:49,560 Speaker 1: to resuscitate somebody, for every little defect or whole, you know, 620 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:52,000 Speaker 1: the little injuries in the body, you're going to have 621 00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:57,440 Speaker 1: blood issuing forth up out of that area. And if 622 00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:00,520 Speaker 1: the person still has what's referred to any kind of 623 00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:04,360 Speaker 1: agonal respirations or pulse, that means they're in kind of 624 00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:08,200 Speaker 1: the process of dying, the body will be pushing blood 625 00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:12,440 Speaker 1: out of those areas as well. So you're gonna be covered. 626 00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:15,040 Speaker 1: Your hands will be covered, your arms will be covered. 627 00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:18,080 Speaker 1: If you're wearing clothing, your clothing will be covered in blood. 628 00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:23,760 Speaker 1: It would just be an absolute mess. Bianca was found 629 00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:31,040 Speaker 1: lying face down next to a dresser. Does is that logical, Joe, 630 00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:33,560 Speaker 1: if she shot in the chest, that she would fall forward? 631 00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:39,120 Speaker 1: I mean, does that you understand why I'm asking that? Yeah, 632 00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:40,719 Speaker 1: you know, I think I think a lot of and 633 00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:43,200 Speaker 1: there's been any number of cases over the years, you know, 634 00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:48,200 Speaker 1: where people have asked well, do people fall in specific manners? 635 00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:52,600 Speaker 1: Do they fall categorically in one position? If there is 636 00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:56,080 Speaker 1: a self inflicted gunshot wound versus an accidental gunshot wound 637 00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:59,719 Speaker 1: versus a homicide, and there is nothing, I mean, there 638 00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:03,120 Speaker 1: is nothing out there that dictates that you will fall 639 00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:07,440 Speaker 1: in a specific position. So when somebody has found face down, 640 00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:10,640 Speaker 1: for instance, in this position, that just happens to be 641 00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:15,840 Speaker 1: the position in which gravity dictated their resting point, because 642 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:19,680 Speaker 1: the body is so insulted by this event that has 643 00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:23,160 Speaker 1: taken place. It's not like you're you're purposing to go 644 00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,640 Speaker 1: down on your hands and knees and fall fall forward. 645 00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:31,480 Speaker 1: It's whatever gravity dictates what will happen. And one other 646 00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:33,720 Speaker 1: thing too that you know, we can kind of dispel 647 00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:37,400 Speaker 1: as well. Um, and again I go back to you know, 648 00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:39,440 Speaker 1: I'm always kind of picking on Hollywood, but you know, 649 00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:42,600 Speaker 1: we see these these programs and whatnot where people are 650 00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:46,240 Speaker 1: shot with weapons, say, for instance, a shotgun blast in particular, 651 00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:48,680 Speaker 1: and people get blown back two and three feet. That 652 00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:52,640 Speaker 1: doesn't happen. The body essentially absorbs that energy, and you 653 00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:58,719 Speaker 1: know people will many times drop uh down approximating the 654 00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:02,400 Speaker 1: last location where they were ending alive. They're not going 655 00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:05,520 Speaker 1: to be blown back two or three feet. That's it's 656 00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:08,080 Speaker 1: not like you're getting hit with a car here, you know, 657 00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:12,560 Speaker 1: big blunt object. That just doesn't happen. Many people will 658 00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:18,279 Speaker 1: be be driven slightly, but there's not enough energy over 659 00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:21,879 Speaker 1: enough contact surfaces the body to drive somebody back through 660 00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:25,360 Speaker 1: the air. That's just not gonna happen. But the entry 661 00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:30,960 Speaker 1: will still be ghastly. Ultimately, Lawrence Rudolph is charged with 662 00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:35,239 Speaker 1: foreign murder in the death of his wife Bianca, and 663 00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:39,000 Speaker 1: there has been a resolution. Joe, Yeah, there has been 664 00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:42,640 Speaker 1: just recently. Dr Rudolph was in fact found guilty, not 665 00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:46,960 Speaker 1: just found guilty of of this foreign murder, which is 666 00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:50,520 Speaker 1: an interesting point in and of itself from a legal standpoint. 667 00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:52,840 Speaker 1: But you know what, one of the things that people 668 00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:59,440 Speaker 1: are always asking, you know, they're always asking when somebody commits, uh, homicide, well, 669 00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:03,000 Speaker 1: what's the motive vation? Is it greed? Is it passion? 670 00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:05,839 Speaker 1: You know, is it lust? Is it anger on? In 671 00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:09,640 Speaker 1: this case, apparently, you know, it comes down to to greed. 672 00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:12,920 Speaker 1: He was he was found guilty also of insurance fraud. 673 00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:18,160 Speaker 1: And this is this is kind of fascinating because this 674 00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:21,240 Speaker 1: is a federal case, as opposed to state charge. Remember 675 00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:24,120 Speaker 1: this event took place in Zambia. But what the Feds 676 00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:26,800 Speaker 1: were able to do is that, even though his practice 677 00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:32,040 Speaker 1: is located in Pennsylvania, he was charged federally in the 678 00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:35,400 Speaker 1: district court in Colorado, and that's where his trial was 679 00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:39,640 Speaker 1: held because that's where the company that he defrauded was headquartered. 680 00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:48,440 Speaker 1: So now he's in prison. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and 681 00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:50,600 Speaker 1: this is body Backs.